# TOPCast 13: Michael Gottlieb & Alvin Gottlieb

**Source:** TOPCast - This Old Pinball  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2007-03-11  
**Duration:** 61m 0s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/showget.php?id=13

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## Analysis

Michael Gottlieb, third-generation member of the legendary Gottlieb pinball family, discusses his childhood growing up in the pinball industry, his family's manufacturing legacy, and his career path from Alvin G Pinball to Williams/Midway. His father Alvin joins via phone to celebrate his 80th birthday and discuss the family's sale of Gottlieb to Columbia Pictures. The conversation spans family history, factory experiences, game design philosophy, and the evolution of pinball manufacturing challenges.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Michael's earliest memories include a Gottlieb delivery truck (driven by Chester) coming to his house monthly to swap machines, from around 1974 until his father sold the company — _Michael Gottlieb describing his childhood pinball experiences_
- [HIGH] Michael worked as an intern at Data East Pinball at age 16, assembling playfields and doing miscellaneous production work at minimum wage — _Michael Gottlieb recounting his summer job experience_
- [HIGH] Alvin G Pinball's PCB design was unique: a single 8.5x11 inch sheet combining CPU and driver board using MOSFETs, contrasting with other manufacturers' multiple auxiliary boards — _Michael explaining Alvin G's technical architecture_
- [HIGH] Michael joined Williams/Bally/Midway on April 18-19, 1994, after Alvin G faced industry downturn and limited future prospects — _Michael Gottlieb stating his official hire date_
- [HIGH] Michael was a game designer at Williams, heavily involved in rule set and concept design rather than physical playfield layout; he conceived Punchy the Clown as a Mushroom World-themed face clown game — _Michael discussing his design role and Punchy the Clown concept_
- [HIGH] Punchy the Clown failed as a redemption machine because it required too much skill and took too long (not 7 seconds), making it uncompetitive with Rock and Ball — _Michael analyzing Punchy the Clown's commercial failure_
- [HIGH] David Gottlieb (grandfather) funded Gottlieb Hospital in the early 1960s after creating significant wealth from the pinball business — _Michael explaining his grandfather's philanthropy and hospital founding_
- [HIGH] Alvin Gottlieb sold the Gottlieb company to Columbia Pictures — _Michael and Jim discussing the sale to Columbia Pictures; Alvin confirms_
- [HIGH] Michael attended Northern Illinois University and earned a degree in business management; game design college programs did not exist at that time — _Michael discussing his education_
- [HIGH] Michael's first job after college was starting Alvin G Pinball with a focus on two-ended pinball machines (Soccer Ball), then pivoted to regular pinball (World Tour, Mystery Castle, Pistol Poker) when industry slowed — _Michael describing Alvin G's early games and strategy_

### Notable Quotes

> "My earliest memories were a new pinball machine coming into the house every month, my dad playing the game at the house, and learning how to add on score reels, the concept of carrying, you know, when the nine snapped over to the zero, the next number snapping over. That's how I remember adding in my mind when I was a little kid."
> — **Michael Gottlieb**, early in interview
> _Illustrates how Michael's childhood was immersed in pinball mechanics from infancy, using pinball machines as educational tools._

> "It was like Willy Wonka land. I mean, you know, there were hundreds and hundreds of machines all lined up on the production line in varying degrees of assembly, and those 70s Gottliebs were very, they were beautiful games, very, very colorful, and the reds, before they faded into pinks 15 years, 20 years later, the reds and the backlashes were just magnificent."
> — **Michael Gottlieb**, discussing factory visits
> _Captures his awe and appreciation for the manufacturing scale and aesthetic quality of 1970s Gottlieb games._

> "My dad's old line, you know, what's your favorite game? And his answer was always the next one."
> — **Michael Gottlieb**, middle of interview
> _Reveals Alvin Gottlieb's philosophy about always pursuing the next innovation rather than clinging to past successes._

> "My dad used to joke, if you work in a bell factory long enough, you don't hear the bells anymore."
> — **Michael Gottlieb**, discussing father's perspective
> _Shows Alvin's acceptance of becoming desensitized to the constant noise of manufacturing._

> "From the earliest age, from the youngest age I could ever remember, my dad ever saying when I was four or five years old, I said I want to make games for a living. It's all I ever wanted to do."
> — **Michael Gottlieb**, discussing career aspirations
> _Emphasizes Michael's lifelong passion for game design, instilled from childhood._

> "Building a pinball game is the biggest pain in the rear you'll ever run across. It's just so complicated. There are so many things to go wrong, and you really need top-notch engineering to be able to pull it off."
> — **Michael Gottlieb (quoting Gary Stern)**, discussing pinball manufacturing difficulty
> _Underscores the complexity of pinball manufacturing even when compared to $15-20 million video game budgets._

> "It doesn't matter how much money you have. In fact, you're a lot more resourceful when you don't have nearly as much financial backing to do things."
> — **Michael Gottlieb**, reflecting on Data East experience
> _Reveals a key lesson from early career that has informed his later work at major studios._

> "I made the mistake of wanting to offer the player some level of entertainment value, and that's not what those things are about. We were competing with Rock and Ball, and Punchy the Clown can't compete with Rock and Ball because the ball actually moves around on the playfield, and it takes more than seven seconds for gameplay."
> — **Michael Gottlieb**, discussing Punchy the Clown failure
> _Self-critical reflection on how game design philosophy (entertainment over speed) led to commercial failure in the redemption market._

> "I'm enjoying being 80. I'm enjoying being anything, actually."
> — **Alvin Gottlieb**, birthday greeting segment
> _Shows Alvin's philosophical, upbeat perspective on aging and life._

> "I was born into the industry and as a child my father took me around his factory and then when the boys were old enough it was my pleasure to take them around and show them our operation."
> — **Alvin Gottlieb**, reflecting on family tradition
> _Demonstrates the multi-generational passing of pinball industry knowledge and pride within the Gottlieb family._

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Michael Gottlieb | person | Third-generation member of Gottlieb pinball family, worked at Data East Pinball, founded Alvin G Pinball, later joined Williams/Bally/Midway as game designer (April 1994), now works on video games for PlayStation 2 and Xbox |
| Alvin Gottlieb | person | Michael's father, second-generation Gottlieb family member, led Gottlieb pinball manufacturing, sold company to Columbia Pictures, involved in founding Gottlieb Hospital through Damon Runyon Cancer Fund efforts, celebrating his 80th birthday during this episode |
| David Gottlieb | person | Michael's grandfather, founder of D. Gottlieb & Co., pioneered pinball manufacturing, accumulated significant wealth, founded Gottlieb Hospital in early 1960s through philanthropic efforts |
| Joe Gottlieb | person | Michael's younger brother, avid pinball player during childhood, works selling electric cars in San Diego |
| Jim Shelberg | person | Engineer and co-host of TopCast, employee of Pin Game Journal, friend of Michael Gottlieb, assists with interviewing |
| Judd Weinberg | person | Michael's uncle, heavily involved in Gottlieb Hospital philanthropy, had son Jack Weinberg who serves as chairman of hospital board |
| Jack Weinberg | person | Michael's cousin, chairman of board at Gottlieb Hospital |
| Peter Gottlieb | person | Michael's cousin, involved with Gottlieb Hospital |
| Chester | person | Gottlieb delivery truck driver who delivered machines to Michael's house monthly during childhood |
| Wayne Neyens | person | Gottlieb engineer who designed/worked on prototypes; Michael and brother played test machines in engineering department under his supervision |
| Walter Winchell | person | Reporter involved in raising money for Damon Runyon Cancer Fund; appeared in photograph with Alvin and David Gottlieb |
| Rob Burke | person | Founder/organizer of Pinball Expo, enthusiastic fan who convinced Alvin Gottlieb to be first guest speaker |
| Joe Kamenkow | person | Owner/designer at Data East Pinball where Michael interned at age 16; known for enthusiasm and motivation despite modest budget |
| Gary Stern | person | Contemporary pinball designer/manufacturer quoted by Michael regarding difficulty of building pinball machines |
| Jim Sherd | person | Colleague of Michael at Williams, appeared in photograph at Pinball Expo, worked on gaming department cabling for slot machines at WMS |
| Wally Welch | person | Game designer who collaborated with Michael at Williams |
| Jerry Armstrong | person | Game designer who collaborated with Michael at Williams |
| Joe Dillon | person | Executive at Williams/Bally/Midway who hired Michael Gottlieb in April 1994 |
| Roger Sharp | person | Executive at Williams/Bally/Midway involved in hiring Michael; Michael describes working in 'Roger Sharp fashion' on playfield design |
| Stephan Conkey | person | Michael's nephew, appeared in photograph from Pinball Expo with Michael and Jim Sherd |
| Dana Goldstein | person | Michael's cousin, lived in Miami and Chicago, attended Pinball Expo and played Gottlieb machines |
| Margie Gottlieb | person | Michael's aunt (Judd's wife), involved in Gottlieb Hospital efforts, passed away in 1994 |
| Marvin | person | Current operator of Punchy the Clown machine mentioned by Jim; machine reportedly makes good money for operator |
| Gil Pollock | person | Pinball designer at Premier Technologies, too busy with Cue Ball Wizard to build Alvin G's Soccer Ball machine |
| Ken Fedezna | person | Executive at Williams/Bally/Midway who met with Michael regarding Alvin G business |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Gottlieb family pinball manufacturing legacy, Michael Gottlieb's childhood immersion in pinball, Alvin G Pinball company founding and games, Williams/Bally/Midway game design career
- **Secondary:** Gottlieb Hospital philanthropy and founding, Pinball manufacturing engineering and complexity, Redemption machine design philosophy
- **Mentioned:** Data East Pinball internship experience

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.85) — Michael and Alvin express warmth, pride, and nostalgia about their pinball heritage. Fondness for family traditions, respect for colleagues, and gratitude for industry opportunities dominate. Some mild self-criticism about Punchy the Clown's commercial failure, but framed as learning experiences. The celebratory tone of Alvin's 80th birthday adds positivity.

### Signals

- **[historical_signal]** Detailed oral history of Gottlieb family pinball manufacturing spanning three generations (David, Alvin, Michael), including childhood factory tours, game rotation practices, and family business culture (confidence: high) — Michael's recollections of monthly machine swaps, factory visits, and multi-generational involvement in pinball
- **[business_signal]** Gottlieb company sold to Columbia Pictures under Alvin Gottlieb's leadership; timing and financial details not fully discussed (confidence: high) — Both Michael and Alvin confirm sale to Columbia Pictures; Alvin notes it was bittersweet after many years of operation
- **[personnel_signal]** Michael Gottlieb transitioned from founding Alvin G Pinball to joining Williams/Bally/Midway as game designer on April 18-19, 1994, after Alvin G faced industry downturn (confidence: high) — Explicit date and explanation of organic recruitment through business discussions
- **[manufacturing_signal]** Alvin G Pinball used innovative single-sheet 8.5x11 inch PCB combining CPU and driver board with MOSFETs, contrasting with competitors' multiple auxiliary boards; early prototype issues required international troubleshooting (confidence: high) — Michael's detailed technical description and admission of MOSFET problems requiring fixes in England, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan
- **[design_philosophy]** Michael pioneered rule-set and concept-based design (vs. playfield layout) at Williams; created Punchy the Clown as Mushroom World-themed clown face game (confidence: high) — Michael explaining his design role as conceptual rather than physical playfield design; Punchy the Clown detailed as his original concept
- **[product_concern]** Punchy the Clown failed as redemption machine due to excessive skill requirement and long gameplay duration (over 7 seconds), making it uncompetitive with Rock and Ball; highlighted design philosophy mismatch with market requirements (confidence: high) — Michael's self-critical analysis of why Punchy failed in redemption market vs. arcade operators' needs
- **[industry_signal]** Pinball manufacturing complexity rivals $15-20 million video game budgets; requires top-notch engineering; more difficult than software development (confidence: high) — Michael's comparison of Alvin G production challenges to modern video game budgets and Gary Stern quote
- **[business_signal]** Mid-1990s pinball industry faced severe downturn with excess inventory and insufficient buyers, causing Alvin G (as smallest manufacturer) to lose market position (confidence: high) — Michael explaining industry-wide slowdown that forced Alvin G closure and his transition to Williams
- **[event_signal]** Pinball Expo founding involved Rob Burke recruiting Alvin Gottlieb as anchor guest speaker to launch the event; Alvin was receptive to Burke's enthusiasm about the concept (confidence: medium) — Michael's recollection of Rob Burke's phone call to Alvin and dinner meeting to convince him to participate
- **[venue_signal]** Pinball Expo events in recent years featured family photos and Gottlieb family members (Dana Goldstein) playing classic Gottlieb machines, indicating community engagement around heritage games (confidence: medium) — Discussion of photos from Pinball Expo with Dana Goldstein playing Gottlieb machines until 2 AM
- **[design_philosophy]** Design philosophy conflict: Michael wanted to provide entertainment value in redemption games, but market prioritized speed and minimal skill for maximum quarter extraction; Punchy the Clown exemplified this mismatch (confidence: high) — Michael's explicit admission that he 'made the mistake of wanting to offer player entertainment value' when redemption industry needed speed
- **[personnel_signal]** Michael Gottlieb had early career exposure across multiple manufacturers (Data East, Premier Technologies, Williams) through family connections and mentorship from industry leaders (Joe Kamenkow, Gary Stern); formative experiences influenced later career philosophy (confidence: high) — Summer internship at Data East at age 16, visits to Premier Technologies, extensive time at Williams with legacy Bally personnel

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## Transcript

 You're listening to TopCast, this old pinball's online radio. For more information, visit them anytime. www.marvin3m.com slash TopCast Okay, and welcome to another episode of TopCast. We have a very, very special show tonight with somebody that's been in the business a long time and has a family tradition that is pinball. We're going to be introducing him in just a second. I also have with me tonight my engineer, Mr. Jim Shelberg of the Pin Game Journal. He's going to be helping out here. He's also going to be helping with the interviewing because he's actually really good friends with this gentleman. So I'm going to kind of let James do at least a lot of the questioning up front, and we'll see how he does. Yeah, you never know with Jim. That's the whole thing. You never know. So, hold on a second. Special guest. Special guest. Special guest. Special guest. Okay, I have with us on the line Michael Gottlieb. And I'm sure everybody's familiar with that name, Gottlieb. And yes, he is Gottlieb. And say hello to us, Mike. Make sure we get your levels okay. Good evening. How are you guys doing? Good, good. Can you hear us okay, Mike? Yes. Okay, great. Now, Mr. Shelburne is going to start out. He's got some questions for you that he's actually run by me in the future, or beforehand, and they're some pretty good questions, so we'll let him run with it. I passed, okay, right? Yeah, he passed. Yeah. Michael. Yeah. I talked to you earlier, and I asked you to try to think about what your earliest memory of pinball is as you were growing up, because you certainly had it all around you from the day you were born. I presume you don't remember that far back, but what would it be, would you think? Well, my earliest memories are having games in the house, and we actually had the Gottlieb delivery truck come every month. The gentleman's name was Chester that drove the truck, and every month Chester would come, and he would pick up the current game that we had in our living room, and he would drop off a new one, and sometimes he would drop off a couple of new ones if they had an extra single player that had a short run or something like that. My earliest memories were a new pinball machine coming into the house every month, my dad playing the game at the house, and learning how to add on score reels, the concept of carrying, you know, when the nine snapped over to the zero, the next number snapping over. That's how I remember adding in my mind when I was a little kid, because that was just kind of like all I knew. And I also remember coming home every single day from school and playing for at least an hour. So pretty much from about 1974 up until my dad sold the company and then became no longer involved with it. I played pinball at home for about an hour a day. And what was the first machine that you remember that you had? Do you remember any names of the games? Um, probably, you know, I have vague memories of, like, Jungle Life, Jungle King. Okay. You know, kind of that era. Pretty much any 73 or 74 Gottlieb would be something, you know. And then the ones, you know, I remember really liking Jet Spin a lot, and the bowling one, 300, I think it was called. I liked all the baseball games, any of the poker games. I remember Royal Flush was really good when we had that in 76. It was kind of weird because if you had a game that you really, really liked, you didn't want the truck to come and take it away for another one. But it was my dad's old line, you know, what's your favorite game? And his answer was always the next one. Now, were they taking it away because you were like a mini test location, so to speak? Well, I think it was just the nature of the way things were going back to the dawn of time. My grandfather always had a game in the house, and my Uncle Judd Weinberg always had a game in his house, and I think it was just that way. I think it was a convenient situation where if my dad wanted to, I don't know, in private, if you will, sit and play whatever was on the production line or just have it. I mean, it was just, you know, it's what the family did. So you wanted to have one in the house in case you had people over or whatever else. They were proud of it. And it wasn't like some of these massive collections today. Like I said, it was only one game, but the nature of it was it was always good to have a game around. My dad used to joke, if you work in a bell factory long enough, you don't hear the bells anymore. And I remember playing pinball while he was watching the news, and he could drown out the sound of the game. He could always drown out the sound of a pinball machine because he was so used to it. Now, did you have any siblings, any brothers or sisters? Yes, I've got a younger brother, Joe, who sells electric cars here in San Diego. He's a couple years younger than I am, but he was a big pinball player as well. And was he, I mean, did you, both you guys ever go to like the factory when you were a kid and kind of like tool around the factory and, you know, play hide and seek and stuff? Oh, yeah, all the time, all the time. We used to go, our dad used to take us down to the factory. Anytime we had a day off of school, and then there would be days where we would ditch school, where he would say, hey, why don't we go down to the factory instead of going to school. I don't know why he did that, probably because he thought it would be cool or whatever the case may be. But anyway, yeah, he would take us down to the factory and give us a tour and show us everything that was going on. And it was like Willy Wonka land. I mean, you know, there were hundreds and hundreds of machines all lined up on the production line in varying degrees of assembly, and those 70s Gottliebs were very, they were beautiful games, very, very colorful, and the Reds, before they faded into pinks 15 years, 20 years later, the Reds and the Backlashes were just magnificent. and they always had a row of about maybe ten games in the engineering department, prototypes in varying degrees of put-together-with-instructions-written-in-black Sharpie on the play field. And because we were the boss's kids, the engineers put up with our hijinks. We weren't troublemakers or loud, but we played. We would just go in there quietly and play game to game to game, And then sometimes, you know, Wayne Neyens or something would ask, what do you think? And we would tell them, but it was a very casual type thing. And then we would ride around on the forklift, go back to the stock room. We had a really good time. Those were really fun. And the people there were always really nice. And my dad was a really nice guy. I mean, he was a really nice person to work with. So I think that they were, you know, tolerant and gracious as two little monkeys running. But he always welcomed us there and liked us being there. He saw that we got a kick out of it. So just so everybody knows, your grandfather was David. That's correct. Your dad was Alvin. Yes. And then you've got you and your brother Joe running around the factory. Right. Riding on the forklifts. Bothering Wayne Neyens, who was the key designer, game designer at the time. and basically getting in trouble, it sounds like. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think our father was very strict. He didn't even have to open his mouth. All he had to do was look at you, and you knew to straighten up and fly right. And if we were going down to the factory, I mean, we would have nice clothes on and make sure our hair was combed, and there was some level of behavior required. And my uncle, Judd Weinberg, you know, he was always there, and he would take us down to see him. So it was never like running around screaming crazy or whatever, But, yeah, I mean, grab a handful of playfield rubbers or, you know, if you found some playfield inserts or all sorts of cool stuff, you'd stuff your pockets with it, and then when you got home, you'd have, you know, all sorts of treasure. Mike, I got, actually, I just changed the picture on the webcam of Elvin and your grandpa and Walter Winchell. Is there anything you can tell me about that picture? Right, that's where my dad was pinned with black hair. Yeah, right. Now, who's Walter? Gosh, I think Walter Winchell was, I want to say he was a reporter or something like that, but I think the context of this is that the Gottlieb family was heavily involved in the Damon Runyon Cancer Fund, where they were always raising money for cancer research. Now, there's an actual Gottlieb hospital. That's correct. Right, and how did that come about? The way that came about is that my grandfather was a very interesting man. He came from nothing. He made more money than he ever could have ever conceived of, and once he had enough to take care of his family, he pretty much just gave the rest away. And instead of just giving it away and writing a check and not paying any attention to it, he thought it would be really good to give back to the community, and that was the whole genesis of Gottlieb Hospital in the early 1960s. my dad was the guy. I mean, you know, the Gottlieb family funded it, but my dad was physically the guy watching them pour the foundation, and he was flying around the United States interviewing doctors. So, you know, he kind of built that whole thing from the ground up, and it's just massive now. There's a huge campus with multiple buildings, and it's doing great. My cousin, Jack Weinberg, is the chairman of the board over there and just doing a great job. And your Uncle Judd had a lot to do with that also? He did, he did I think he's less involved now Jack, David, and Rich, who are Judd's three boys Are the most involved And then my other cousin, Peter Gottlieb He's involved as well So it's, Judd was very, very involved As was my Aunt Margie before she passed away in 94 Okay, so now, do you remember Pinball Expo? Do you remember when someone talked to you about that at all? I remember the first time Rob Burke ever called my father, and my dad thought it was an interesting idea and was receptive to it. And I think I vaguely remember the first time we ever went out to dinner with Rob before they had the first expo, and Rob was so adamant that my dad had to go and be the guest speaker, that he was going to be the linchpin to kick off this event to actually get people to show up. And I remember Rob being kind of like Rob is today. I mean, very enthusiastic and excitable and, you know, just crazy about pinball. And very reverent that he actually had a chance to meet my father because he had been such a fan of Gottlieb games for so many years. So those are my memories of that. We just had a picture up on the webcam of you and, was that his cousin? His nephew. My nephew, Stephan. Yeah, I'm watching the webcam right now. It switched back. But, yeah, that was my nephew, Stephan Conkey, and Jim Shurd, who was somebody I met at Pinball Expo. And now works at WMS in the, yeah, on the left there is Jim Shurd. He works in the gaming department doing the cabling for the slot machines. Yeah, I'm probably 13 or 14 in that picture. So when did you know that you were going to end up in the, I mean, you're in the coin-op business now. You work for Midway, right? Well, I'm in the interactive entertainment industry, right? I make video games for PlayStation 2 and for the Xbox and whatever else. Yeah, that's a little more recent right there. From the earliest age, from the youngest age I could ever remember, and my dad ever saying when I was four or five years old, I said I want to make games for a living. It's all I ever wanted to do. I thought it was just the coolest thing in the world. quite a great deal of what I learned from my father. I still apply today in making consumer video games because fun is fun and entertainment, you know, the form of entertainment, it can be a movie or music or a TV show, but interactive stuff like pool, billiards, you know, darts, pinball machines, video games, you know, handheld systems. To me, there's threads of similarities and good game design and what's rewarding and fun for somebody, none of that has changed. So, yeah, from the earliest age, all I've ever wanted to do is make games. And did you, when you got out of high school, did you go right into it or did you go to college first? I went to college. I went to Northern Illinois University and got a degree in business management. Probably would have taken some game design classes, but none of that existed. Everything that exists now in terms of these schools offering major in-depth courses for people that want to be artists and programmers and producers and all this stuff, none of that existed back then. So I just got a plain old degree in business management. Okay. And then when you got out of school, what was your first job? First job out of school was Alvin Gianco, where what had happened was my dad came up with this idea called a switch flipper. and we came up with this game idea called Soccer Ball, which was the two-ended pinball machine thing. And the short of the long is that we originally intended for Gil Pollock and Premier Technologies to build it, but at the time Gil was so busy building games. It was around the cue ball wizard era, and things were going really well at Premier, and it just so happened that Gottlieb Hospital had a building on a piece of property they had bought. They spent the money for the property and not for the building, if you will, but there was this building there, so we thought, well, you know, let's start a pinball company and see what happens. And that was exactly what we did. And we started with the two-ended soccer ball game. And as is frequently the case when you try and start something from scratch, we had a lot of challenges and things didn't go exactly as we had planned. And we moved from soccer ball into doing regular pinball machines for a very short period of time with World Tour, Mystery Castle, and Pistol Poker. But at that point, the industry had really slowed down a lot because there was a lot of inventory out there. and not enough buyers for all the games that the distributors had sitting in inventory. And when you're the last man, you know, lowest man on the totem pole, you know, you're the first one that gets nicked. So I got out of school We did the Alvin G thing for a couple of years And at the end of it we had started talking with Williams about building some Adams Family gold machines in our facility, or maybe doing some redemption pieces with Williams, because they had that Adams Family values thing, and there were some other pieces they were looking at. But ultimately, we just decided that there wasn't going to be any future in it. And April 18, 19th, 1994, I officially went to work for Joe Dillon and Roger Sharp at Williams Bally Midway. Now, how hard was it to land that job? Well, it was... That's like the job everybody would want. What had happened was, I'll tell you the truth. The truth was we were looking to sell Alvin G. and more or less sell the design, because we had product and development, but things weren't going great. And we had several meetings with Ken Fedezna and Neil Macastro, and had talked to Joe Dillon multiple times. And when it didn't pan out, the conversation just turned to, well, you know, Michael, do you think, would you be interested in joining us? So it was a very organic kind of thing as opposed to a, you know, let's go get him kind of thing. And I always joke, I mean, it probably didn't hurt that my last name was Gottlieb to get my foot in the door, but if anybody that's worked for Williams in that era or in recent eras, it's absolutely a meritocracy. If you don't know what the heck you're doing, you don't last very long. So it didn't hurt, but I'd like to believe my being able to sustain my employment has been, you know, my last name doesn't have a whole lot to do with it. Right, right, because that's, you know, it's like you've jumped from one, you know, as a pinball nut, you've jumped from one pinball job to another that's been like a dream, you know what I mean? It would be a dream for most people to do something like that. You know, I'm extremely, extremely fortunate because my dad had a lot of friends in the business, and in varying degrees I kind of stopped over everywhere and was around everywhere at different points in time. I did work a summer at Data East Pinball for Joe Cam and Cal, which was an absolute trip. It was very enjoyable. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Stop right there. You worked as like an intern at Data East? That's correct. What did you do for them? Let's see. I put together playfields. I did whatever needed to be done. You know, the coffee and donuts kid. I put together playfields. I helped. I would take stuff apart, put stuff together if they were having problems out on the production line. The stickers on Monday Night Football weren't sticking and adhering properly. So I was out there trying to help them out with that. And, you know, just generally, you know, do whatever needs to be done. How old were you? Oh, God. 16 maybe, give or take. Oh, man, you know, this just kills me because this is like, you know, a 16-year-old kid working for Joe at Data East. It just sounds like a dream. I mean, were you paying them? No, I was making six or seven bucks an hour, minimum wage or whatever, probably less than that, I guess. I mean, I was making minimum wage, and it was amazing. It was a trip. It was really a fascinating experience, and all these years later, now working for a big corporation doing very expensive projects with lots and lots of funding, a lot of the lessons you learn when Joe and Gary were doing what they were doing on a very, very modest budget, those are very valuable lessons. It doesn't matter how much money you have. In fact, you're a lot more resourceful when you don't have nearly as much financial backing to do things. And the other thing that always stayed with me is Joe Kamenkow's level of enthusiasm. No matter how challenging the situation was, he was extremely enthusiastic and motivational and fired up. And, you know, he was right. I mean, you know, you have to believe that you have to be a dreamer, right? I mean, you have to believe that you can do things if you ever want a chance of achieving them. So, you know, I stayed over a summer there, and I was around Premier Technologies a lot. I didn't work there, but I was over there a lot visiting. And then when we first, first started the soccer ball thing, we were over at Premier all the time talking with them about them building the piece. And they actually did some early engineering on it with us. So I had that experience. And then I got to work at Williams. And at that point, there were still a lot of people from the old Bally era. And Bally was a separate corporation, so I got to know a lot of those guys. so it's been, you know, it's really been an honor and a privilege across the board. I've kind of known and touched everybody in some form. Wow. So when you were at doing, oh, by the way, I own one of those head-to-head, you know, I own the soccer ball game. Oh, yeah. Oh, that flipper switch thing. Right. That is the coolest thing in the world. Yeah, it is pretty neat. Because I owned a Joust, which is another, you know, a Williams head-to-head. Right, the double-ended pin game, yeah. Yeah, and that game just sucks. Yeah, it was great. With just one player, it's just awful. I mean, there's nothing to it. But you play the soccer ball or the USA football, and, you know, when one player, and it's like, damn, that machine's good. You know what I mean? It was pretty clever. Yeah. It was pretty clever. It was a neat machine. It was just difficult to build, and being a first-timer and not having, you know, electronics, not having all the components that you need. It was just an enormous, enormous undertaking. I mean, it's funny in a way, Joshua Clay, because, you know, we do very expensive projects now. I mean, to do a video game, some of the top-end, next-gen stuff, you're looking at anywhere from $15 million to $20 million. But still, ultimately, it's just software, and it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to build a pinball machine. It just is. I mean, Gary Stern will tell you that. Building a pin game is the biggest pain in the rear you'll ever run across. It's just so complicated. There are so many things to go wrong, and you really need top-notch engineering to be able to pull it off to make reliable products. Now, I noticed that the board set you used in the Alvin G's was different than anybody else's. It was kind of more similar to Gottlieb System 3, but still, it wasn't the same thing. Who did the board designs for all you guys? You know, I honestly don't even remember the name of the company, but there was some company we contracted with that did the board design. I just remember that we thought it was pretty elegant because it fit. It was an 8 1⁄2 by 11 sheet of paper-sized PCB, and it was a combination CPU and driver board where everybody else was doing it separately. And, in fact, Premier, if you remember at the end of that era, they were doing, you know, daughter board after daughter board, and they were auxiliary boards. And by the time you opened the backbox, there were, you know, seven or eight of these little tiny auxiliary sound board, driver board, and all this other stuff. So we wanted to start with a clean sheet of paper, and it was MOSFETs as opposed to, like, Darlington transistor. Right. And it was a pretty elegant little system. You know, I mean, it was fine. But, again, it was the first time around the bend for the software and the board itself. And we had problems with MOSFETs acting up and some other stuff. And it just, you know, stuff like that you really want to test. Forgetting about the fact that it's going to go in a pinball machine, that particular PCB hardware set, I mean, you want to test that for six to eight months. And unfortunately, we didn't have the time because the industry was hot, and we had orders, massive, massive orders for soccer ball, and couldn't build them fast enough. So it's a good problem to have, you know, but, you know, it just is what it is. I've never had a problem with that game, though, ever. And I've never, I do a lot of repairs and I've never had to fix an Alvin G machine. I mean, aside from like, you know, maybe bad fuse holders. You know, that over time it has the same problem as like Data East or like the material in the fuse holder just fatigues and you've got to put new ones in. But other than that, you know, if the thing was kept in a nice environment, there was, I've never had to fix one. I mean, you know, that's, you know, testament to the design. Yeah, well, the later, there was a revision to the board once we figured out what some of the issues were, and we made some changes. We made quite a number of changes, and the first handful of them were more problematic and acted up more than the full production run. You have to remember, in the business, you run test samples, you ship the test samples out, and my biggest memory of that whole thing was a nightmare of shipping test samples out that weren't working. There was a period of time where I flew from, oh, God, Robert Englunds to Japan. There were Robert Englunds to Germany to Spain to Italy to Japan, fixing games, because we were having problems with the prototypes. It was just the prototype run was a real nightmare. So inevitably we got it all figured out. But, you know, my memories of that era were just the early stuff was just very, very difficult to get up and running. And, you know, laser war at Day to East, they had all sorts of issues. and the earliest game plan products, there were all sorts of issues. It just, you know, you really can't get around it. Right, right. It just takes a little bit of time to cut your teeth, as it may be. You know, now I saw that you were like a game designer, too. I mean, you had your hand in almost, God, it looks like every game, but basically, you know, goes on world tour. You know, it seemed like you were like kind of a big-time game designer, too. Yeah, I was heavily involved in design. I mean, you know, it was myself, Jim Scherd, Wally Welch, and Jerry Armstrong. You know, game designer in the purist sense, in the Steve Ritchie sense, the guy that physically draws the play field, he's the game designer. But, you know, they were kind to me because in later years people started perceiving concepts and rule sets, right, like the way Jon Norris did both the play field and the rule set, they would perceive that aspect of design as being equally important or having great value. And I was very much a guy about coming up with rules. I helped on some play field layout type stuff, but more in a Roger Sharp fashion where I would look at it and say, well, what if we move the spinner to the left or this ball guide rail should change this way. But concept-wise, like Punchy the Clown was totally my concept. I got up one morning and I thought, you know, wouldn't it be fun to do like a Mushroom World type thing and the play field be the face of a clown, you know, and I brought that to the guys, and we essentially drew it up as I envisioned it. And, you know, it was fun. It was fun coming up with those ideas. Now, Marvin is still running a Punchy the Clown. Oh, cool. You know, he actually makes a lot of money, to be honest with you. I mean, it's... They make great money. They make great money. The problem with Punchy the Clown is it was a horrible redemption machine because it required skill. Redemption machines are all about taking your quarter as quickly as possible and with as little amount of skill as possible. And I made the mistake of wanting to offer the player some level of entertainment value, and that's not what those things are about. We were competing with Rock and Ball, and Punchy the Clown can't compete with Rock and Ball because the ball actually moves around on the play field, and it takes more than seven seconds for gameplay. Yeah, well, seven seconds, I don't even think you could plunge three balls in seven seconds. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So it's still, I mean, it's still a good thing, I mean. So, well, anyways, we've been talking about 30 minutes. We're going to take a little break, run a couple ads, and I'll let you rest your throat for a minute. Okay. And we'll be right back with Michael Gottlieb right after these. Topguest is brought to you by Specialties, your pinball parts superstore. Visit their website at marcospecialties.com. You can search for parts by game name, game make, or part number. Marco Specialties was founded in 1985 and is headquartered in Lexington, South Carolina. They specialize in pinball parts, supplies, books, and anything pinball. Marco has been online since 1996 and is the web's oldest and largest pinball parts supplier. Their new 12,000 square foot distribution center services 25,000 customers in over 50 countries. Feel free to call Marco Specialties at 803-957-5500. Marco Specialties, your pinball parts superstore at marcospecialties.com. TopCast is brought to you by Pinball Life. Give your pinball machine new life with parts from Pinball Life. We ship pinball parts worldwide. Pinball Life is located in the great city of Chicago. Their phone number is 773-202-8758. We have an open door Ryan Policky and you're welcome to call us with your questions and concerns. 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Central Time, Monday through Friday. Their website is at pinballlife.com. Pinball Life. No hassles, just the parts you need fast. Okay, we're back with Michael Gottlieb. And we also have on the line his dad, Alvin. And we understand that it's Alvin's birthday. Happy birthday, Alvin. Happy birthday, Alvin. Thank you very much. Yeah, I thought when Jim mentioned the radio show and he mentioned that it was Sunday, I thought it would be fitting to give you a call, Dad, and wish you a happy 80th birthday. Because, you know, these guys and so many people that listen to this show, I mean, they're such fans of your life's work and the work of your father that I thought it would be nice to give you a call. Well, thank you very much. I'm enjoying being 80. I'm enjoying being anything actually there you go we have a little webcam set up so people can see still photographs and we had that picture up before with you and your father and yeah dad they're talking about the photograph with your father and with Walter Winchell do you remember the nature the story behind that picture oh yes very definitely That was when Walter Winchell was raising money for the Damon Runyon Cancer Fund. And he came to Chicago, and the coin machine industry, all the manufacturers, got together and raised money for that cancer fund. Okay. And Jim also has another picture up that's a more recent picture, and it has, let's see, is it Joe on the left? Yeah, I'm looking at it right now. They've got a picture up from Pinball Expo a few years ago with my brother Joe on the left, and that's my dad. That's our cousin, Dana Goldstein. She lives in Miami, and she's got a couple of kids. At that time, she was living in Chicago. I called her and said, you really should come to Pinball Expo. She came and stayed until like 2 in the morning playing old Gottlieb machines. It was pretty cool. That's Dana Goldstein? Yes. Okay. Oh I got a big kick out of that because I was born into the industry and as a child my father took me around his factory and then when the boys were old enough it was my pleasure to take them around and show them our operation. Okay, now, when you ultimately sold Gottlieb, what, to Columbia Pictures, right? That's correct. I mean, was that a sad day for you or a happy day? Well, it was a combination of both because we had been operating the business for all those many years, and we got to a point of where my brother-in-law and I discussed the situation, and we thought it was about time that if we could take it easy after that. And a friend of his managed to come up with the Columbia deal, and the numbers were good, and they did treat the people properly. Did you stay on as a consultant or as an employee at that point? Yes, I had a five-year management contract, and I stayed with Columbia. and then even when Coca-Cola bought Columbia, I finished off my contract in 1981. Okay, and did you, at that point, were you pretty much ready to, you were pretty much done with pinball, or were you ready to keep going? No, I was, at that point, pretty much done, because I was quite busy being a daddy to Mike and Joe and enjoying that very much. Okay. Now, when you sold the business to Columbia, did they make any changes that you felt were inappropriate or anything like that, or were they pretty good about it? Well, initially, no. They stayed pretty much with the program as we had developed it. And then, of course, the video games came along, and the company got into that. And then when Coca-Cola bought Columbia, things changed because Coca-Cola was what you call one of those mega-corporations where you have to have a meeting to have a meeting to decide to have a meeting. Right. And that wasn't exactly our management style. So it was difficult to get things done at that point, huh? Well, they had a corporate megastructure, as I said, and there were a lot more people involved in management, and it was a tricky period, like I say, what with the video games coming up strong, and they tried to get into that and it didn't fare that well. So when did you actually come on board? You know, you must have worked, obviously, with your dad at the factory at some point, right? Yeah, when I got out of the Navy, I went to work at the factory in 1947. Okay, and what was your first, well, how old were you and what was your first job there? Well, I was 20 and my first job was to work in the engineering department to learn all of the ins and outs of designing, development, and production. Okay. And then, I mean, where did you go from there in the business? Well, into just about all of the areas of the business. I did quite a bit of traveling amongst the distributors and helping with sales and being involved in design engineering and talking with the various mechanics around the country, making sure we were doing a good job building the games. So let me ask you this. So Michael went basically into game design. You were involved in it. I mean, was, like, your wife or your mother, like, oh, no, no, not another family member making pinball machines? I mean, did this conversation ever happen, or were they all like, no, the more the merrier? Well, you jumped around and saying a few things. I didn't quite understand what the final question was. Well, I mean, was, you know, everybody was getting involved. Everybody in the family, in the Gottlieb family, more or less was into pinball at some point. I mean, Michael got in on it. You were in on it. Obviously, David was in on it. I mean, you've got three generations of the Gottlieb family that were basically doing the family business. And, I mean, were the females in your life, you know, your mom, your wife, you know, Michael's mom, obviously, I mean, were they all okay with this, that you guys were all, you know, everybody in the family was doing pinball-ish type, you know, work? Oh, yeah. Well, actually, it was only the men involved in the business. And the ladies were on the peripheral of it. They participated in conventions and so forth. but the actual operation was confined to just the male members of the family. I would say they probably didn't really have much of an idea as to what it really consisted of one way or another to have an opinion. You know, it was more along the lines of everybody needs a job. It's like Larry DeMar's mom. Larry DeMar designed, you know, Defender and worked on Robotron and all these great games, and of course, you know, a programmer extraordinaire, a programmer at Adam's family, and when Larry first started in the business his mom was a little skeptical as to what he was doing but then when he was able to demonstrate he could make a living doing it, his mom Edith was fine with it and I think it's been the same thing for me if I said I was going to pursue this and I wasn't able to make a living out of it if I wanted to say I want to be an actor or I want to be a rock star and I'm living and I can I'm not making any money and I can't support myself or my family it's very different than being gainfully employed. So I don't think it's about pinball versus not pinball. It's about, you know, are you doing something where you can be gainfully employed and are you doing something that's not going to drive you crazy? So mom never gave you, you know, put her arm around you and said, Michael, we really need a doctor in the family. There was none of those conversations? No, because there's nothing about the game business that was particularly, you know, anything one way or another. I mean, my two children think it's very cool that I do it for a living, but I do, you know, consumer video games, and they love the Nintendo stuff and the PlayStation stuff, and I do games based on some of the cartoon shows that they see. So for them, they get a real kick out of it. You know, they get a kick out of the product itself. And for me, I remember when I was a kid, I used to get a kick out of the fact that this is what my father did because I loved the games. I was very excited and enthusiastic about the games. But probably building out on your question a little bit is how my dad responded. He was interestingly indifferent, meaning that he never pushed that I really should do it with my life. And at the same time, he never pushed and said, no, you know, you don't want anything to do with this. All he ever wanted for me was to be happy. And if it was in the business, fine. And if not, that's fine, too. So kind of a question for both you guys. Was there ever a temptation to go to the gambling side of the business, opposed to the pinball? I mean, gambling was always big. Bally kind of dabbled in it. Even Williams dabbled in it, well, most recently. But I mean, prior, it seemed like everybody kind of dabbled. But Gottlieb really seemed to stay away from it. I mean, was that a hard decision? I'll let my father answer that one. That was definitely David Gottlieb's point of view. He wanted to be just strictly in the amusement game business, and gambling was not of interest to him at all. He wanted to be able to provide, in his own words, provide amusement for the populace at a very low price. So there was never a temptation to do that then? Well, he did make a couple of games that were games of chance, but his heart wasn't in it. It was more or less to maintain competitiveness, and he didn't enjoy it at all. I was in the engineering department one day when he came in and told us that that was the end of our attempt at trying to get into that business at all. From then on, it was strictly amusement games. Because in 1952, when the Johnson Act was invoked, it didn't outlaw gambling devices, but it outlawed the transportation of them. It was just you and Williams basically making pinball machines, and the production numbers on the games were fairly low. Were you guys kind of wondering at that time, maybe this isn't the right business to be in? You guys still there? Yeah, I've got a big static crash there for a second. Yeah, I heard that. Yeah, so in 1952 when the Johnson Act came in, you couldn't transport anything that was any sort of a gambling device, and pinball machines kind of got looped into that. Did that change anybody's perspective at Gottlieb? Because here you went in the 30s from having hundreds of pinball companies Well, our perspective on it when the Johnson Act was passed was that Dave Gottlieb's decision to stay in amusement only was absolutely the right way to go. Okay. Yeah, because I guess later in like 1956, somehow that got repealed for the pinball end of it, and then production numbers on both Williams and Gottlieb pinball machines went way up. I don't know if that was a direct reaction, but I'm sure it had some bearing on it, that pinball machines weren't considered gambling. During that period of time about what would constitute a gambling pinball machine, and it had to do with the free games being able to be knocked off, as they said in those days, and redeemed in cash. and that would then constitute a gambling device. And then we started building multiple player machines, which took more than one coin to play, one coin per player. And there was some confusion that that would become a multiple coin game. And through the help of some good counsel, we brought that around to where they understood exactly which was which. Now, to jump forward a little bit to the soccer ball game, I understand that you were very, very involved with that sensing flipper switch system that was on the head-to-head games. Yeah, that was my invention, and that was an item I thought was going to become a great big hit, and it was a good game, all right, but it didn't make the kind of money that the regular pinballs did. I was telling Michael that I have one of those, and it just kills me when you play one player how good it is. You know what I mean? It's just the game is awesome. I mean, it beats me all the time. I hate it. You know, I feel like a schmuck. It was a fun game to play. Right. Now, how did you ever come up with that idea? Well, I really don't know. It was one of those things where I kept thinking of an automatic flipper. and it took a great period of time for me to come up with the invention of the automatic flipper, which we did, and we built it. It was a nice item, all right, but regular pin games were the number one item on the agenda. Right, right. Interesting. Yeah, because, I'm sorry, Jim had a question. Oh, okay, he was giving me the stare like he did. But, you know, because like on Adam's family, they had this thing called ThingFlip, where they had like an opto in front of the flipper that would, you know, actually see the ball pass and then, you know, would automatically, you know, kick the flipper to try and make a shot. And it's like, you know, your version was actually, you know, a predecessor to this. Well, the device you're talking about, when Williams went to get a patent for it, It actually conflicted with the patent that we already had for the switch flipper. So as part of some cross-licensing agreements, a deal that we cut with Williams effectively, they were allowed to do their thing. Oh, okay. That's where I was kind of going with that. It was if Williams actually did kind of get in a little, you know, had to get approval from you guys in order to do that. Yeah, it was fine. I mean, we had a little conversation, worked out a deal, and it was fine. Were they pretty easy to work with at the time? Yeah, well, they was old friends. I mean, it was Steve Kordick and Ken Fedezna and the guys, and so they were friends, and it was no big deal. Right. Okay. Okay. Now, are you pretty good friends with Kordick? Well, my dad is. Oh, yeah, I was. Steve was one of the, quote, old, old-timers. Very, very nice gentleman. Okay. And do you keep in touch, I mean, with a lot of people from, you know, the Gottlieb era? I mean, do you still talk to any of the people that you used to work with there? Well, I stay in close contact with Wayne Nye, our designer, but unfortunately most everybody's gone. Right, right, which is really too bad. Okay, we're going to take a little break here, and we will be right back. Just hold on, guys. Don't go anywhere on me. Okay. And I'm going to run an ad and let you rest your throat for a minute. Okay? Hold on a second. Hey, George. I just had to call and tell you about this really great magazine I got. It's called the Ping Game Journal, and it's the only magazine dedicated totally to pinball. It's got great articles and interviews with designers and everything. No, George, I won't loan you my copy. Who knows where you'll take it to? You're going to have to go to pinggamejournal.com and get your own subscription. But George, the guy says that each issue will get mailed whenever he feels like it. What the deal with that All right George I got to go I got to call Elaine and tell her I can believe how good this magazine is We back with Michael and Alvin Gottlieb and again we want to wish Alvin a happy birthday and Jim and I are going to sing Happy Birthday. No, we're just kidding. Happy Birthday. Oh, did you hear that? Jim's a really bad singer. But Alvin, we really appreciate you coming on and talking with us. I know you're busy and we'll let you go in again happy birthday thank you well thank you very much I always enjoy talking about the business it was a good business a fun business always refers to the good old days thanks guys talk to you later ok take care bye bye Alvin Mike you still there? I'm right here ok just wanted to make sure I didn't lose you Mike you mentioned when you worked for Roger, well, I asked you before if you were getting nervous coming up to airtime, and, of course, you said you weren't. But you told me when you really did get nervous. Oh, yeah, it was back in, like, 94 when we would go to the AMOA or ACME show or whatever. I was the guy that was wearing the headset going through the 15-minute spiels, you know. hey, Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, now with more combatants, do fictities and fatalities and vivalities and animalities, and we've got this and that and cash box earnings like you've never seen before, and have you seen No Fear Pinball? Have a look at this machine. The skull talks, you know, and I would do that for 15 minutes at a shot, take a break, have some operators explain to me how nothing we ever built ever made money for them or worked, which was always pleasant, and then had to put the headset back on and get back up on stage again and do that all day long. And that'll tear into you. How old were you when that was happening? Oh, in my early 20s. And so that maybe wasn't quite the dream job that you were thinking of at that time? Well, you know, you don't think. You know, you're just in the business because it's what you want to do. When you have passion for something, you'll put up with a lot. Now, in retrospect, I'm a little bit older now, and I think back and I think, oh my lord, I was a monkey out there dancing for peanuts, but, you know, hey, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. And the real question is, would I do it all over again? And the answer is absolutely yes, because some of the best times of my life and the most fun I ever had was working like a maniac at Williams. And what was, like, of your career in the coin-op biz, what was your worst job that you ever had? Worst job I ever had was at Alvin G. because at the end of it, you know, we decided to close the place, and the worst job I ever had was shutting the place down because unlike a software company or a dot-com blow-up where all you do is turn off the computers and take them out and sell them or whatever on eBay, now, I mean, then, my gosh, we had, you know, inventory, and what do you do with pinball machine part inventory? You know what I mean? I mean, it was just a real nightmare getting rid of all the parts, clearing the place out. It was a real headache. And that was absolutely without question the most depressing and unfortunate thing I had ever gone through. But, you know, at the same time, every misfortune is a learning experience. You know, I'm the vice president of external development for Midway Games now, and those experiences that I had then with failure really taught me a lot more valuable lessons than I've ever had with success. Now, you don't actually work in Chicago, right? No, I work in San Diego. I run the San Diego studio. Okay, and is that a good thing or a bad thing, kind of being disconnected from Chicago? I think it's a combination. It's a bad thing in the sense that corporate headquarters is in Chicago, so there are discussions that take place on a dynamic basis that we don't necessarily get to participate in. But it's a good thing in the sense that, you know, we have a different culture and we do things differently. A lot of software development takes place on the West Coast, so it's very good to have a presence in Southern California. It extends our flexibility because our business is all about talent, and if I find talent that happens to want to live in Southern California as opposed to Chicago, Midway San Diego provides that option for them. That's why we have so many studios. We have Midway Los Angeles, Midway Seattle, Midway UK, Midway Newcastle, Midway Austin, Midway Chicago, and Midway San Diego. Now, I asked you what was the worst job you ever had. What's the best job you've ever had there? The best job I've ever had is the job I've got right now. because I'm running the studio and I've got some of the most talented people that I've ever run across in the business. Second favorite was probably that early 90s period working at Williams Bally Midway, because it was really the end of an era. You know, Star Trek, I think, was on the production line. It was that Demolition Man, World Cup Soccer, Flintstones, Shadow, Roadshow era. and it was truly leading up to the end of an era where Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawler, Larry DeMar, all John Trudeau, I mean, Brian Eddy, all the greats were there actively making games and there were five or six game teams all making games at once and it was amazing. It was absolutely, I mean, it was Camelot. You know, they were making more money than they knew what to do with off of Adam's family and Star Trek was successful. And even Creature from the Black Lagoon, they cut that production run short. And it was like everything they touched turned to gold. And then on the video side, we had Mortal Kombat 2. I helped launch Mortal Kombat 3, which was a phenomenon. NBA Jam, Hangtime, I think one of the NBA Jam variants we launched. And we had the top two video games and the top two pinball machines in the coin-op business. and it was a great, healthy business where we were selling lots of products. So those were good times, and I had so much fun with those guys because, you know, I mean, it was a privilege. It was an honor and a privilege to be able to work around Steve Ritchie and Pat Lawler and Larry DeMar and John Papadiuk and Brian Eddy, and, you know, the list just goes on and on. At the time, did you know? I mean, looking back on it, it's probably easier to, kind of like, you know, hindsight is 20-20, realizing now how good of a job that was. but at the time did you know that this is Camelot, as you say? No, I don't think you can ever have that level of objectivity, because when you're in the middle of it, you know, you were focused on making sure that the materials for the Cruisin' USA video game are done, or making sure that, you know, a game gets put out on test properly, and there's a lot of headaches and a lot of challenges, and, you know, some degree of turmoil that went on. And I think that if the organization continued to this day and those guys were still there, I would look at it differently than I look at it now. I treasure that experience because it was the end of an era. I was able to be around at the end of something that would never be the same again. I mean, I love what Gary's doing, and I think that Stern Pinball rocks, and he's got a lot of super-talented people there, but it's a different time now. And I was able to be at Williams at the end of the Golden Era. I mean, it really was. It was the golden era where they had infinite resources and engineering to do whatever they wanted, and the games really reflected that. Wow. So we've been going like an hour. Is there anything else you want to add? Anything we missed? Gosh, I mean, Jim's comment earlier was I could talk for more than an hour, and it's absolutely true. I mean, all these different eras have a lot of fun stories and interesting stories. Rob's asked me to do the Fireside Chat this year at Pinball Expo, which I'm more than willing to do. Probably the final comment I'd like to make is I just got back from what they call the Game Developers Conference, which takes a place in San Francisco. It used to take place in San Jose. Now it's in San Francisco. And it's a huge, huge convention now, 10, 15, 20,000 people, where they all go and they all go to seminars to talk about the video game business and the future of our business. And right now there's this huge movement towards attracting what they call non-players, getting grandmothers to play games and getting women to play games and people that have not normally played games in the past. And the analogy is so startling to me because our business, the video game business in the last couple of years, has really become about the hardcore gamer and building these products that are very complicated and require a lot of time, effort, and energy that you have to invest to get good at them. And what we're finding is that audience is shrinking, and we're looking to expand our base, and we're looking at what we call the non-gamer. Well, you know, the guy in the bar 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, they were non-gamers. They were not going to a location to play a pinball machine necessarily. There were some people that did that, but the point is that such a great percentage of the cash box take of those games over decades and decades and decades were people that were there to have a shot and a beer, visit with friends, have a good time, and they happened to put money into a pinball machine. And if it was fun, they would put more money in it, and if it wasn't fun, they wouldn't put more money in it. And that whole model is something that our business now, with the cell phone games, what they call casual entertainment, the Nintendo DS, this new Nintendo Wii with the gyroscope and the controller, trying to get everybody to play games. The bottom line is what was true then is true now. In order for us to expand our audience and to get more and more people to embrace games, quote-unquote, they have to be simple, they have to be fun, they have to be accessible, they need to be easy to learn, they need to be hard to master. And so essentially, granted, I'm working on games that are $15 million now, but fundamentally, it's no different than Baffle Ball or Five Star Final. Well, you said that, just to hold you on just for one more second, you said that you had a couple interesting stories from each era. Is there one that you can recant for us as kind of a last story here? I think... Are you holding out for Expo? Yeah, I mean, there'll be a lot to talk about at Expo, but on a top level, just the creative genius of Eugene Jarvis, he's just a different human being, and he's gifted, and he's very... Your brain needs to be at a different frequency to be able to tune in with him, and the intensity of Steve Ritchie. I mean, Steve Ritchie's just... I mean, he's mellowed a lot, but he was an absolute Tasmanian devil and I don't mean it in a bad way I learned a lot about the passion and the fire and the energy that you need to bring to the table to actually create something it's one of the problems with our business these days that people don't care enough and people back then, people like Steve Ritchie they could be difficult but you know what, they were difficult because they were trying to achieve greatness and they were demanding and they were intense because it wasn't about just a game. There was some crusade that was going on and something that had to be done, and it was greater. There was a greater purpose and a greater cause, and that's how I operate in my business right now is I always think about the greater purpose and that level of intensity, bringing your best game to the table. Those are the things I remember learning from Eugene Jarvis and Steve Ritchie. Well, is it hard to hire people like that today? I mean, is like today's X generation, Are they kind of sometimes missing that, or are they easy to find? I think I won't throw it out as a generation thing because that's not necessarily fair, but I absolutely do believe that a lot of the people that are in the business or want to get in the business, you know, Jack Nicholson used to say, if you want to make an omelet, you need to break some eggs. And the creative process demands a lot of you, and it doesn't mean you have to live at the office, But what it does mean is you need to be very committed, and none of it is easy. The biggest problem is everybody wants it to be easy. Everybody wants their ego gratified, and they want to be pumped up and feel, you know, do a million zillions selling game. But what they don't realize is how incredibly difficult it is to do that, because above and beyond doing a great game, it needs to be at the right time with a lot of marketing behind it, and you need to have the stars line up in order to really achieve that success. And I think that there's a greater lesson in what I call hitting singles, which is continually year on year shipping smaller projects that are profitable, that provide good entertainment for the consumer, but not having to go for that grand slam home run all the time. And, you know, the other big lesson, too, is that back in my dad's era, there was a new game on the production line every six weeks. You know, now our projects take 24 months. Well, that's two years of your life, man. and to be able to retain your passion over two years is very different than over a period of six weeks. There's probably a sweet spot in between there. But yeah, I absolutely do see people being apathetic and just wanting it all handed to them. The greatest people in my business today that are doing what they're doing have that same level of passion, intensity, and fire, and they don't do it for the money, and they don't do it for the glory, and they don't do it for their ego. They do it because it's who they are You know, it's who we are We make games, this is what I do The fun stuff is a byproduct of it But so is the ugliness of when things don't go well You know what I mean? So, there it is Right, well cool Well, thank you very much Michael Really appreciate you coming on and talking to us Wow, it was great And I really appreciate you having Dad on too Wishing him a happy birthday That was great. Do you have any closing words, Mr. Shelburne? No, it's just great to hear you got both guys, and we're looking forward to seeing you both at Expo, we hope. Yeah, absolutely. You know, two quick plugs. Tim Arnold's obviously Pinball Hall of Fame is just spectacular. Tim's a good friend, and I think that what he has, it's an American treasure, and it will only be recognized as such over the years go on. And anybody listening to this, if you don't have the Michael Shalhoub books, you must have them. The Michael Shalhoub books are all really, really good. He went and found everybody and they're very, very they're not perfect but they're as accurate as they can be because I was there for a lot of it. And then the third thing obviously is if you don't subscribe to the Pin Game Journal what are you doing? You just have to. Alright, man, you must have gotten a side kicker for that one. I'll send you the envelope later on. Okay. Alright, well thank you very much Michael, you have a good night. We appreciate it. Okay, you're welcome. Bye, Michael. Bye-bye. Okay, and that's it all for TopCast tonight. Thank you very much for listening.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 007a0828-91c2-4ba8-a115-923809258072*