# Episode 91 - On the EVE of Lies

**Source:** Eclectic Gamers Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2019-07-01  
**Duration:** 73m 46s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://soundcloud.com/user-465086826/episode-91

---

## Analysis

Dennis and Tony discuss major pinball news including Jersey Jack Pinball's Willy Wonka release and a significant trust issue: Jack Guarneri lied to This Week in Pinball podcast about whether Wonka machines were in production, repeatedly denying it before shipping began. Tony announces he will not purchase new Jersey Jack machines without a public apology. The hosts also cover IFPA's new $1 endorsement fee for women's WAPR tournament events and discuss pinball tournament attendance challenges.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Jack Guarneri told This Week in Pinball multiple times that Wonka machines were not on the production line, then they began shipping before July 4th. — _Dennis and Tony discuss TWIP's reporting on conflicting information from distributors vs. direct statements from Jack denying machines were in production._
- [HIGH] Jeff (This Week in Pinball host) canceled his Wonka pre-order in response to Jersey Jack's misleading statements. — _Tony states: 'Jeff canceled his Wonka. Really? Yes. I think he ordered an Alice Cooper now instead.'_
- [HIGH] Dutch Pinball apologized for lying about their production issues, unlike Jersey Jack. — _Dennis and Tony compare Jersey Jack's behavior to Dutch Pinball's previous deception about board set issues; note that Dutch eventually apologized while Jersey Jack has not._
- [HIGH] The IFPA implemented a $1 endorsement fee for women's WAPR tournament events starting next year to build prize pools. — _Tony references IFPA announcement about adding dollar endorsement fee to women-only IFPA-sanctioned WAPR events in America and Canada._
- [HIGH] Jack Guarneri said 'maybe I'll do it differently next time' when confronted by Jeff about the misleading statements, but has not publicly apologized. — _Tony reports: 'Jack essentially said, maybe I'll do it differently next time. Okay.' And confirms Jack has not apologized publicly._

### Notable Quotes

> "Unless there's a public apology, I will never buy a Jersey Jack pinball machine. New in box."
> — **Tony**, ~39:20
> _Tony's firm stance on boycotting Jersey Jack due to the Wonka lie represents a significant personal/consumer consequence for the manufacturer's behavior._

> "I don't understand why a business would lie to a media outlet. Yeah, it doesn't make sense, especially a media outlet that is so central in your wheelhouse, basically."
> — **Dennis and Tony**, ~36:45
> _Core issue: Jersey Jack's deception of a central community media outlet appears strategically counterproductive._

> "Jack knows what he did. He hasn't apologized for it."
> — **Tony**, ~38:00
> _Tony asserts Jack's intentionality and lack of accountability despite opportunities to do so._

> "Dutch apologized for their lie. Oh. They did. And honestly, it took them a while. But they did."
> — **Dennis and Tony**, ~41:30
> _Establishes that accountability and apology can restore some trust, contrasting with Jersey Jack's approach._

> "I can't trust anything that they say. It's just like everything that comes out of Dutch is the same thing."
> — **Tony**, ~42:00
> _Tony establishes Jersey Jack as now unreliable as a news source, comparable to Dutch Pinball's credibility damage._

> "How hard was that? Apparently it was too hard."
> — **Tony**, ~47:30
> _Tony's frustration about Jersey Jack's choice to lie when simple alternatives (no comment, off-record, etc.) existed._

> "Jersey Jack, you want to surprise people with your product? Do what you did with Wonka and actually ship it on time. That's a surprise."
> — **Tony**, ~45:00
> _Articulates that on-time delivery is genuinely surprising in pinball and didn't require deception._

> "It sounded like the impression was it was just an idea for consideration, and there wasn't a very big period of time before the next thing they know, here, we're doing it."
> — **Tony**, ~70:00
> _Suggests IFPA solicited women's feedback on endorsement fee but may not have genuinely incorporated it before implementation._

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Jack Guarneri | person | Owner/leader of Jersey Jack Pinball; made misleading statements to This Week in Pinball about Wonka production status; has not publicly apologized. |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer; shipped Willy Wonka machines in June/early July despite denying to media they were in production; credibility damaged. |
| Willy Wonka | game | Jersey Jack Pinball machine based on the Roald Dahl property; shipped on schedule by early July, meeting Jack's 'early summer' target. |
| This Week in Pinball (TWIP) | organization | Pinball news outlet/podcast hosted by Jeff; received misleading statements from Jersey Jack about Wonka production; Jeff canceled his pre-order in protest. |
| Jeff | person | Host of This Week in Pinball; reached out multiple times to Jack Guarneri about conflicting production rumors; canceled Wonka pre-order; reportedly considering Alice Cooper instead. |
| Dennis | person | Co-host of Eclectic Gamers Podcast; pinball enthusiast who has attended recent tournaments and works on pinball machine restoration projects. |
| Tony | person | Co-host of Eclectic Gamers Podcast; passionate pinball player frustrated by Jersey Jack's deception; recently invested in air fryer; participates in local tournaments. |
| Dutch Pinball | company | Manufacturer that previously lied about production issues (board sets) but eventually apologized; used as contrast to Jersey Jack's behavior. |
| Ken Cromwell | person | Associated with Flippin' Out Pinball podcast; received Wonka machine on his birthday; expected to stream gameplay of it. |
| Willy Wonka (Roald Dahl property) | product | Licensed IP used for Jersey Jack's pinball machine release. |
| Backbox Pinball Podcast | organization | New pinball podcast hosted by Lauren Gray; focuses on women in pinball with female guest hosts; discussed IFPA women's endorsement fee in episode 2. |
| Lauren Gray | person | Host of new Backbox Pinball Podcast; focuses on women in competitive pinball, collecting, and community. |
| IFPA | organization | International Federation of Pinball Players; announced $1 endorsement fee for women's WAPR events starting next year to build prize pools. |
| WAPR | product | Women's pinball ranking system maintained by IFPA; now subject to $1 endorsement fee for tournament events in America and Canada. |
| Josh Sharp | person | IFPA figure who modeled the endorsement fee concept on Big Buck Hunter arcade sponsorship structure. |
| Todd Tucky | person | YouTube pinball content creator whose tutorial video on adjusting very targets (Super Orbits) helped Dennis solve switch contact issues. |
| Alice Cooper | game | Jersey Jack Pinball machine that Jeff is considering ordering instead of Wonka. |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Jersey Jack Pinball's deception of This Week in Pinball about Wonka production, Trust and credibility issues in pinball manufacturer communications with media, IFPA endorsement fee implementation for women's WAPR tournaments
- **Secondary:** Personal tournament attendance challenges and scheduling conflicts, Pinball machine restoration and maintenance (Super Orbits, very target adjustment), Emerging pinball content (Backbox Pinball Podcast, women-focused coverage), Comparison of manufacturer accountability: Jersey Jack vs. Dutch Pinball
- **Mentioned:** Pinball spectating and streaming entertainment value discussion

### Sentiment

**Negative** (-0.72) — Episode is dominated by Tony's strong frustration and anger over Jersey Jack Pinball's deceptive statements to TWIP. While there are lighter moments (air fryer enthusiasm, personal anecdotes), the primary pinball discussion centers on broken trust and lack of accountability. Dennis largely agrees with Tony's concerns, though he frames it slightly more analytically. The tone shifts from conversational to fired up when discussing the Wonka situation.

### Signals

- **[business_signal]** Jersey Jack Pinball's deceptive approach to managing media relationships contradicts basic business strategy—lying to a central touchstone media outlet (TWIP) in the hobby creates long-term reputation damage that may exceed any short-term surprise benefit. (confidence: high) — Dennis: 'I don't understand why a business would lie to a media outlet... especially a media outlet that is so central in your wheelhouse.' Tony: 'This is Amateur Hour' and questions the motivation when simple alternatives (no comment, off-record) existed.
- **[community_signal]** Jersey Jack Pinball's misleading statements to This Week in Pinball about Wonka production status has damaged trust within the pinball community media landscape. Jack repeatedly denied machines were in production, then they shipped within days. (confidence: high) — Jeff reached out multiple times; Jack said 'no, the Wonkas are not on the line' then later said 'I said early summer, we're on schedule' just before shipment. Tony references seeing people on social media trying to rationalize the lie.
- **[event_signal]** Launch of Backbox Pinball Podcast, a new weekly show hosted by Lauren Gray focused on women in pinball (competitive, collecting, community) with all female guest hosts, filling content gap in the community. (confidence: high) — Tony: 'This is Lauren Gray's podcast. It's called the Backbox Pinball Podcast... her podcast is a focus on women in pinball... my impression is her guests will all be women. And so it's been good so far.'
- **[sentiment_shift]** At least one significant community content creator (Tony) has announced he will not purchase new Jersey Jack machines without a public apology, and will not cover them unless accountability is shown. This represents material business consequence from trust violation. (confidence: high) — Tony: 'Unless there's a public apology, I will never buy a Jersey Jack pinball machine. New in box... I'm not saying that I'm the media. I'm saying I'm nobody. So if it rolls so effortlessly off of their tongue to do this...I'm done with it.'
- **[community_signal]** Female voices in pinball media (via Backbox Pinball Podcast) highlighting concerns about inclusion and representation, with specific discussion during ep. 2 about IFPA feedback solicitation process and women's tournament participation. (confidence: medium) — Tony references Backbox episode 2 discussion about women's experiences with IFPA communication; notes this got people talking about women guest representation on other shows (TWIP, Head to Head).
- **[product_concern]** IFPA's approach to soliciting feedback on women's endorsement fee may have been performative—Backbox Pinball Podcast guests reported impression that IFPA asked for input then implemented predetermined plan anyway, similar to tone-deaf April Fool's announcement of main endorsement fee. (confidence: medium) — Tony: 'They had a very interesting discussion about did the IFPA act like they solicited feedback and then just kind of did what they were going to do anyway? Because that was the impression they got.'
- **[event_signal]** IFPA announced $1 endorsement fee for women's WAPR (women's pinball ranking) tournament events in America and Canada starting next year to build prize pools, modeled on Big Buck Hunter sponsorship structure. (confidence: high) — Tony references IFPA announcement; notes this parallels earlier endorsement fee on main WAPR system; mentions IFPA solicited feedback from women per Backbox Pinball Podcast episode 2 discussion.
- **[manufacturing_signal]** Jersey Jack Pinball now treated by at least one major community voice (Tony) as unreliable source for future communications, similar to Dutch Pinball's credibility damage from previous deceptions. (confidence: high) — Tony: 'I can't trust anything that they say. It's just like everything that comes out of Dutch is the same thing.' Dennis agrees: 'At this point, you can't trust anything they say.'
- **[announcement]** Willy Wonka pinball machine from Jersey Jack Pinball has shipped and arrived at customers by late June/early July, meeting Jack's 'early summer' timeline despite public denials of production status to media. (confidence: high) — Tony saw picture of arrival posted; Ken Cromwell received his on his birthday; both home collectors and operators received units.
- **[technology_signal]** Emery cloth/abrasive cleaning of brass switch contacts on pinball machines significantly improves reliability and reduces switch misreads, as demonstrated on Super Orbits very target restoration. (confidence: medium) — Dennis adjusted very target but problem persisted until Todd Tucky video recommended emery cloth to shine brass contacts; after cleaning, 'a dozen shots of varying strengths not a single one misread.'

---

## Transcript

 Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, June 30th. It is episode 91. I am Tony. And I am Dennis. We're back again, Tony. It's not the E3 episode. Back again. There are no obnoxious guests trying to have us talk about Google Stadia. Yeah. Yeah. You know how much feedback I got on that? All of it. That's what all the feedback was. I got one. I got one who liked it. Oh. Wow. Wow. The person we mocked for praising it, the Nick Baldrige, the lover of bingos. So we can't trust that too much. But, so here we are, episode 91, getting close to the end, or at least to the end of the double digits. So what's happened since E3 to you? Well, we recorded our E3 episode on Saturday. Yep. Because Father's Day was on Sunday. As it usually is. And everybody had plans. Yes. Well, for Father's Day, I received a bit of... The hurt. No. I'm sorry. It just seemed like the natural thing to come out of Father's Day. That's what happened. I mean, it happens sometimes. No. No, I got an air fryer. Oh. I'll be 100% honest. It's about the only thing I've used to cook since then. Mm-hmm. I'm beyond pleasantly surprised. I just thought, oh, okay, we can do fries again and make them good because, you know, french fries out of the oven are terrible. Yeah, they're... No matter how much my wife tries to say they're good. They taste different. They taste different. Fries out of the air fryer are awesome. Hard-boiled eggs out of the air fryer are awesome. Grilled cheese out of the air fryer is awesome. Homemade pizzas out of the air fryer. Are awesome. I mean, I've made tons of stuff in it. It's just downright amazing, honestly. I'm kind of in shock at how good it does everything. This episode of the Eclectic Gamers Podcast is brought to you by Air Fryer. Air Fryer. Fry the air. Fry life. So, congratulations for whoever came up with that idea, because I love it. Excellent. It's the new walk of the kitchen. It can do everything. Exactly. And otherwise I've been Working Are you going to say working? Busy Getting some stuff ready We're getting ready to redo some Some of the stuff in the lawn We've got some areas So I've been getting some tools And getting ready to start that Insanity And I had to clean the gutters And I had to do all sorts of stuff like that I don't like cleaning gutters I don't either. I finally earlier, or later last year, or maybe it was earlier this year, I finally had them install the nice gutter guard things. The gutter guards. They were confused at first, and they put on bigger gutters. And I said, no, I thought we were doing guards. I don't want to ever go up there. And they said, well, I only recommend the pricey ones. The little screen ones don't work very well. And I said, whatever it takes. I'd already been, I had to do it twice in one year. And I was like, that's too much. That's silly. I had put it off for so long that there were trees growing in my gutter. Oh, it's like a little roof garden. And when I went in and started digging the gutters out, literally there was about a half inch of clearance from the top of the gutter to the hard-packed dirt and leaves and stuff. For me, the only sad thing was guards, new bigger gutters, it still will. However the roof is sloped Will drain on top of the porch I can't It's apparently not a clogged gutter It's just how it's laid out How it's settled or something Well that's cool Air fryer Has brought you joy It's brought me joy Playing video games Cold waters No actually I've been playing nothing but Rule the waves Okay. The French can't be trusted in that. You know what? F the French. I knew it. I knew it. When I played as Italy, I expected the French to be one of the countries I fought the most. And I did. I fought them like eight times. Now I'm on a new playthrough where I'm playing as the United States. I fought Russia twice. I fought Germany once. I fought Italy once. And I fought France seven times. and it's 1934. I don't know. When will they want peace? I don't know. I'm wondering if I play as France if nobody will ever fight me because France apparently are the only people who do most of the wars. What if you fight yourself? Well, that's... French Civil War. French Civil War. That's right. That's exactly what I'm going to do. You're going to be Napoleon on a boat. Yeah. Napoleon on a boat. Okay. Well, that's awesome. So I haven't played as much video games in the last couple weeks. I got in more time on Red Dead Redemption 2. Not much. But then I started listening to a new pinball podcast. It's a newer one. I think they've had three or four episodes out of it. I think four at this point. I came in as of episode two, which is actually the third. They did one of those where they opened with an episode zero. Oh, one of those. Yes, one of those that did that. But this is Lauren Gray's podcast. It's called the Backbox Pinball Podcast. I think it's meant to be a weekly. At least that seems to be the pace so far. I don't usually go back and listen to old. So it's wherever I come in is kind of how I do it. And so she's sort of following what I consider the old TWIP podcast format where she's the host and she has revolving guest hosts. Right. But her podcast is a focus on women in pinball. They cover competitive. They cover collecting. but my impression is her guests will all be women. And so it's been good so far. So it's on the list. Something had to fill the void of coast to coast. Yeah. And that's what got to do it. And you don't have to worry about being brought in to do this one. Why not? Unless you've changed your consideration since the last time I talked to you, that is. She could make an exception for me. She could. You didn't contemplate that option, did you? It's possible. I'll send her an email. No, no. I don't need to be on anymore. Actually, there was an interesting thread on – I think it was just on Facebook. And it linked to Head to Head Pinball and to Twip Podcast. And it was just sort of asking, why are there not more women guests on those shows? Which is a fair enough question. Because then I thought, when was our last women guest? It was – sorry, my pen. It was Mrs. Penn. Yeah. Last year. Of course, we've only had the three episode guests this year. I thought we had one. Oh, we had Nick. We had Nick. Thank you. You're right. For the Quaynop Carnival book. Right. So, obviously, we just had less guests in general. But it was an interesting point. But anyway, someone, I don't remember who it was, but someone said, I'm just sick of hearing Dennis all the time. And I thought, me too. Me too. This set us free. I did like how you called it Twit Pinball. So it's This Week in Pinball Pinball. Yeah, I meant to revise that I should just call it This Week in Pinball Podcast I should say it out, saying twip makes it sound really stupid So, but Sounds like you've got a really lame Spider-Man Twippy sounds fun, but twip sounds like twerk Twip Okay You have a much more positive You have a sort of positive mental image of it Mine's much more negative And then most of my pinball projects are done At this point I saw you stream Super Orbits yesterday. I did. And then today I went in my, I was having a little trouble with the very target. And I, after the stream, I adjusted it a little bit, cleaned it. And it was, it was better, but not great. And then my dad sent me a Todd Tucky video of how to properly adjust the very target. And my adjustment was actually, I kind of undid part of the adjustment. The adjustment was okay. but it was the brass contacts apparently just cleaning them with like alcohol or business card what I normally use to clean switches wasn't good enough it said to use emery cloth oh yeah shine those puppies up did that I tested it for like a dozen shots of varying strengths not a single one misread so I think it was that simple I just needed to shine those puppies up so all I have left is to install the backbox lock into Jacks to Open, which I had streamed a day or two before. I've done two two-plus-hour streams. Nice. So my legs are very sore. Yeah, we've used some of those emery cloths at work on the hydraulic pistons when they'll start getting some surface rust and you hit them with the emery cloth. Yeah, I thought... I was surprised I had some. I have a whole box of sandpaper. I probably could have used a fine-grit sandpaper and been okay. because Todd had something else, some special little eraser tool thing. But anything abrasive. I have files, but I only use those on tungsten contacts because I don't want to – you can file them away. It's an aggressive file. So that's okay for like flipper switches, but normally on most switches you would not use a file like that. But this worked really well. It's like – done. Great sound effects. Yeah, thank you. That's what it sounded like in real life. Did you know I used to voice sandpaper as well? My favorite part is that the machine just tells you when it's done. It just goes, done! Okay, so let's formally transition, because I don't know where this is happening. I don't know. I think it's possibly bleak. I'm not sure. We're in the darkest timeline. We are. We are. So let's move to the pinball news. In that darkest timeline, and there is darkness within this timeline, We do have news to talk about, so that's good. I think we should probably open with the biggest piece of news, the Willy Wonka pinball machine from Jersey Jack Pinball. It's shipping. I am shocked. They made their timeline. I saw somebody post a picture of an arrival yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, it was. Obviously, we had been hearing. I mean, we're real bare bones on the wire because tomorrow is July. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, what was the vague thing? It said early summer, obviously, where we just entered into summer. He wanted to have people, Jack Guarnieri, if I'm saying his last name right, wanted to have people have it in their homes, according to one of his interviews, as of the 4th. Right. And it sounds like that's come true. At least some people. Yeah. And my understanding is it didn't just go to, there was a rumor that it was, it's just the standard models that have been built so far. but there was a rumor that they were going to operators first. People who were known to operate the games in order to up exposure would be the theory. Would have been a solid theory. It sounds like it was a blint. Some are for operators and some were for home collectors. I even saw that Ken Cromwell from Special When Lit Pinball Podcast posted a picture on his birthday of getting it on his birthday. Aww. Yeah, it was nice. I'm sure he's loving it, and they'll probably stream that on the Flip N Out Pinball stream. On my birthday, I got it. An air fryer. No, that was Father's Day. Oh, that's right. Your birthday was months ago. It was months ago. Why are you trying to bring... I think I had a midlife crisis. I think that's what I got. I think I got a midlife crisis for my birthday. It's possible. That's why. I'm pretty sure that's just required at this point. I guess so. I don't know the rules. I don't make the rules. We just try and follow the rules. Unfortunately, for me at least, the discussion of Wonka is now tainted. severely tainted because because jersey jack lied to this week in pinball during the build-up to this launch really shipping yes and we have not discussed this i know you've seen the show notes which just had a one little one one long thing so let me allow me to elaborate there was i know you regularly read this week in pinball yes so you may recall that jeff of this week in pinball was in the last few weeks noting that there was conflicting information regarding if the Wonkas were under construction, if they were on the line is the common vernacular. Because there are all sorts of people writing in to Jeff, contacting Jeff, letting Jeff know, oh, I've heard from my distributor, I've heard from this person and that person that the Wonkas are on the line. They're getting built. So it should be shipping pretty soon. Jeff reached out multiple times to Jack and Jack told him Wonka is not on the line. Told them that initially, and then Jeff reached out again, according to the TWIP write-up later, saying he checked in again, and Jack said, no, the Wonkas are not on the line. And then just before the Wonkas shipped, and the latest This Week in Pinball write-up, it indicated that when he was asked, Jack said, I said early summer, we're on schedule. Well, they were on the line because there have been now shift. So rather than say no comment, rather than say, oh, off the record, they're on the line. But publicly, I don't want to admit that. I don't know the motivation. I'm assuming as a surprise. I don't see how it works as a very good surprise when the distributing network seems to be aware. Right. But do you remember when another pinball manufacturer lied? We talked about one before. Just one? One in particular, because we spent quite a bit of time discussing the lie because of how misleading it was. Yeah. And there have probably been some other instances where they've been cagey or not full with the truth. The one that I think of is Dutch Pinball, obviously. Right. When they told everyone that it was the board sets having issues instead of admitting or saying nothing about whether they were in conflict with Aura at the time. I did reach out to Jeff. Jeff normally does all the reaching out. I reached out to Jeff yesterday and asked him if Jack has apologized for this, and he has not. They spoke on the phone. Jack, I've had people, like when I was streaming, this came up a couple of times. I've had and I've seen some... Jeff's been public about it. Jeff canceled his Wonka. Really? Yes. I think he ordered an Alice Cooper now instead. But he canceled his Wonka. Huh. And so he did contact Jeff. Or excuse me, he did contact Jack. There have been some people that have been under the impression or trying to put themselves under the impression that maybe Jack didn't know. that maybe he didn't know his own game was on the line. This is pinball and people reach because I think some of them have a problem with what's happened here, but they still want to buy their game and they want to act like they have some sort of morality in play. I don't, I'm not here to judge. I'm not here to judge that. But what I am here to say is that Jack knows what he did. He hasn't apologized for it. I don't, I'm not going to reveal everything that Jeff told me, but Jack essentially said, maybe I'll do it differently next time. Okay. What is your thought on this? Because I know I've hit this all with you. Some of this has played out on social media. Jeff, understandably, was pretty upset because he's functioning as a media outlet with This Week in Pinball. I think everyone acknowledges that operationally it's much like how Pinball News is. It's going. It's gathering information. He tries to verify. He puts out what he's got confirmations on. He notes when things are speculation. I don't understand why a business would lie to a media outlet. Yeah, it doesn't make sense, especially a media outlet that is so central in your wheelhouse, basically. A media outlet that is just so central to the hobby, that is a touchstone for so many people. It seems like the exact wrong group to be causing issues with. I mean, ultimately, I don't know if there's really any impact on this. I think people like the game, are interested in the game. Here's my impact on this. Unless there's a public apology, I will never buy a Jersey Jack pinball machine. New in box. I've not played Wonka yet. We're getting one on location. I'm not going to punish the operator and say I'm not going to play it. I'll play it. But even if I love it, even if I love it, I won't buy it new. I can respect that. So, I mean, that's my position. Jack has lost me as a customer permanently, unless there's an apology. It's public, and it better not be one of those, oh, I'm sorry if you misunderstood, or I'm sorry if you were upset. No, no. It's humble pie time. I just still don't understand the reason for a lie. The only thing. The simplest thing I can think of, I mean, a simple no comment is all it takes. Apparently he's never seen any movie with any journalist in it ever. I mean. To know that that's not like a throwaway. It makes no sense to lie. People say that all the time. The last thing you want to do is to lie about especially to somebody who is so everywhere omnipresent so omnipresent in the comedy The only thing I can think of is he wanted it to be a surprise to people But again you don't have to lie to accomplish that. And I sure shouldn't have to be the person to tell you that that's not what you needed to do if you wanted to surprise people. You want to surprise, Listen, Jersey Jack, you want to surprise people with your product? Do what you did with Wonka and actually ship it on time. That's a surprise. That's a surprise. But here you are with Amateur Hour all over again, and acting like you didn't do anything wrong because you should have gotten out in front of this already. Right. And you haven't, so I'm done. I'm done with them. I'd almost not cover them anymore at all. Wow. Because why should I? I can't trust anything that they say. No, that is true. I mean, at this point, you can't trust anything they say. I can't trust anything that they say. It's just like everything that comes out of Dutch is the same thing. Exactly. It has to be taken with an enormous grain of salt. And we've had to say that repeatedly. In fact, I'd say you're probably more adamant about it on the Dutch side. But any time it's come up, you're always like, why? It'll be like, hey, they've said this about the lawsuit. And you're like, why should I believe that? They lie. Yeah. And the thing is, the difference between the two, Dutch apologized for their lie. Oh. They did. And honestly. It took them a while. But they did. And honestly, their lies made sense where this lie doesn't make any sense at all. No, I don't get it. I don't get it. It was not a smart maneuver. I'm not calling for a boycott. Guys and gals out there, buy what you want. My rules of honor will not allow me to purchase new because of this. Because I cannot trust this company now with anything that they're going to say. because if they're going to lie to the media, they'll lie to me. I'm not saying that I'm the media. I'm saying I'm nobody. So if it rolls so effortlessly off of their tongue to do this and to act like it's okay because they're going to sell these same games anyway to all the people because they've got you in the palm of their hand, no, I'm done with it. I'm done with it. So I'm not. They've never made a game worth me spending that much money on. And that's fair, but that's a separate judgment. That's a rational consumer judgment. This is my judgment on you did not operate as the proper head of a company, so it's humble pie time, or you can write me off. And you might as well write me off because I doubt they'll listen. Oh, they won't. It's fine. There's no way. Do what you want. But I can't fiscally support a company that is so willing to be manipulative for the most, at best, ridiculous of reasons. Yeah. Yeah, because there's no good reason for it. I mean, something as simple as saying, I don't want this published, yes. It doesn't make sense. That's all you have to do. I don't understand. Or no comment. I don't understand. Or anything other than a lie. I mean, that's like rule of media number one when you're talking to the media. You might not answer. That's why you see so many people, you know, when there's stuff going on, investigations, they do the non-answer answers. Yeah, we don't comment on legal proceedings. Yeah, we don't comment or they'll answer, but they don't actually answer the question. Stern pinball's example. We don't comment on upcoming titles. There's tons of ways to cover this. Exactly. He didn't have to say it was on the line. I'm not saying that. I'm saying you had to not lie. Yeah. How hard was that? Apparently it was too hard. You're passionate. I can see. I can see the fire burning in your eyes. It tilts me so much. It really does. Okay. So enough about Wonka. Let's transition to a different news topic. This one might be negative for some women. Again, it seems like a redo of something we discussed last year, and that's endorsement fees from the IFPA. Again? Yes. This time for the women's WAPR system. And for those that don't know, the WAPR is what people say the acronym is for the World Pinball Point Ranking or something like that. Pinball Player Ranking, I think. It's the point system that the IFPA uses in order to evaluate and place people based off of their performance at IFPA-sanctioned tournaments. So they actually have their own Whopper system. They've had it for a while now for women. And that's used for certain championships and things like that. So it's a separate grading system so that there's still the general Whopper system that everyone, including women, are in as well. Right. So as part of that, I have a link in the show notes to the announcement that the IFPA has about the dollar endorsement fee. But apparently, so starting next year, at least in America, and I'm assuming Canada as well, because they also have the dollar on the regular Whoppers. Right. they're going to add a dollar endorsement fee to the women-only IFPA-sanctioned Whopper events in order to build a prize pool for championship-level events. Thoughts? I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem. Well, you're not a woman, so. Well, I didn't have a problem when it came to the other. I mean, I remember being a little. It was one of those things we talked about, and I seem to recall it was so long ago. I recall I wasn't really keen on it, but as long as the tournament prices didn't change, which in our area they didn't. No, they didn't. I'm fine with it. Congratulations to those people who get to make out better on the actual prize pools now because of it. Because it doesn't, I mean, it ain't never going to be me. When was the last time I actually went and played pinball, tournament pinball, Dennis? Two months ago maybe. Yeah. I think. No, Memorial Day. Memorial Day. I was in that tournament. Okay. But it was for Missouri points. Nobody cares about Missouri points. Those are fake. Fake Missouri points, nobody cares But I mean, I've just I haven't even You basically hate pinball now Apparently That's how it seems like That let me get second at a pinball tournament Because you weren't there to Because Batman Dark Knight Was back, and I was on it And I thought, I'm glad I'm not playing Tony And then I won, because I wasn't playing you So it worked out And I got my money I got my photo taken This is a little side digression This is just a tiny little side digression This probably won't be as toxic As some of the side digressions That the listeners don't know But I had to cut out Because they were so bad On our prior topic I was so pissed off Last tournament Because I haven't been to a tournament Forever And it's always Some little thing Something happening at home, some issue. I was so pissed off, and I went home. Because there were problems with the kids. Yep, this was right after we recorded the E3 episode. We recorded the E3 episode. I was going to go to the tournament, but there were issues with the kids. So I went home, and as soon as I got home, the kids were like, Daddy's home, and Daddy is obviously pissed. And the kids were great the rest of the night. they were fine it was absolutely fine so that was your calming presence it was my calming presence but man I've I've not been to 403 Club since before Texas oh wow I didn't realize that one was that long but I haven't been to 40 the last time I went to 403 Club was when afterwards we went out to dinner with all with Gordon and Logan And that was the March tournament. The March one before we went to Texas, yeah. And I've only been to Pizza West once. And that was also the March one. Because it was the week after Texas, I think. Right, it was. It was either that one or April I went to. But that's it. I've only been to two tournaments since Texas, and one of them was for fake Missouri points. I would really like to go play pinball next week, but at this point I'm not holding my breath on it. I would really like to go play pinball, you know, two weeks after that. I'm also not holding my breath on it. Yeah. Game night conflict on that one. Yeah. I think. I might just go. I don't like missing Pizza West. I'm kind of at the point where I might just draw a line in the sand on that one. I'll give up the 403 one because of the drive time, but the other one I really don't like. Well, that's the one you get closer and closer to getting first place in that one. I don't think I get much closer. I've had second twice now, so it's really as close as you can get. That's twice more than me. Well, you're never there. I know. So how can you do it? Like half the lineup's changed since you've last been there. I still enjoy pinball. Well, speaking of pinball and speaking of the IFPA point that – Yeah, my issue on the – and I had an article about the main endorsement point fee earlier this year, which showed there has been slowing on the growth, but there's still growth, so it didn't kill growth. It didn't stop there being more tournaments and more players, which was an interesting question. The thing for me with the Whopper fee is I don't – and I still don't – I don't accept that it actually is going to grow the sponsorship angle that the IFPA is shooting for. I'm very cynical about that. Oh, I don't see how. It's based – I get where it's based because Josh Sharpe has been very public about how he's modeled that. The concept is modeled on what's happened with the Big Buck Hunter arcade stuff. But to me, the gap there is that it's very easy for just about anyone to watch Big Buck Hunter, figure out what's going on with it, and spectate it. And pinball has a whole slew of challenges, ranging from how it's viewed to how many different games are in tournaments and the rules being different. I just don't think the environment's the same. I don't know that for a fact. That's me speculating. I know pinball. I know pinball quite well. And I don't really watch pinball for fun out of stuff. It's not like I'll sit down on Twitch and watch a whole bunch of pinball. I'll watch you stream when I have the time and I catch it. I'll watch special release things like when Jack Danger has a special release thing or when Buffalo has something. I'll watch them, but I don't just sit down during the day. I'm going to watch somebody play some pinball. Well, even amongst that, there's obviously a difference between watching competitive pinball and watching someone streaming pinball. Like Jack Danger doesn't usually stream competitive pinball. He's usually playing and interacting with his audience. Or that's what the Flip N Out Pinball stream is doing once a week is they're officially they're showcasing a new available game. A lot of what's going on with the show revolve entirely around the discussion that's happening. And in fact, one of the most popular aspects of the Flip N Out Pinball stream is they now have Flip N Out Pinball after hours. So they stream for, say, 90 minutes to two hours, and then usually for another 45 minutes to an hour. They even have a call-in hotline now, and people are doing it like a late-night radio show and going and doing just weird stuff. So that – Do you like your art bell? Right. It's to be entertainment. Right. So even that in and of itself is different. I'm not entirely sure. Is this $1 endorsement fee on the women's system just to up the prize pool and that it? Or is it to up the prize pool and try and bring in sponsors? Because the quantity of players, you're slicing it thinner and thinner. Right. Because now you did the whole Whopper system within Canada and America, a little bit thinner than the overall Whopper system worldwide. And now you're doing the women only in those areas a little bit thinner. Yeah, I don't. Because I've already done it on one, I don't really, I guess, I don't have a problem either with them doing it on this type of Whopper Point as well. I was just surprised this wasn't included when they did it on the other anyway. Well, I think that, yeah. Well, here's the thing that I thought was interesting. So shout out to my intro mentioned Backbox Pinball Podcast. But this got discussed during episode two, I believe it was. Because the IFPA asked for feedback from women on the idea, and then at least per that discussion between those two women on that show, the next thing they knew, here's the IFPA saying, oh, we're doing it. So they had a lot of – go back and listen to episode two. they had an interesting discussion towards the tail end of the episode, I believe. But they had a very interesting discussion about did the IFPA act like they solicited feedback and then just kind of did what they were going to do anyway? Because that was the impression they got. So now when the IFPA fee overall was implemented, there wasn't a request for feedback. It was just announced. I remember because it was announced on April Fool's Day, which was a tremendous mistake. Because initially everyone thought it was a joke. Exactly. It was like, oops. It's like somebody did that one out. Well, it's kind of funny from a troll-y standpoint, but given it's involving people's money, my recommendation is don't ever troll on that. Don't troll it. Yeah, do other things on the April 1st thing. So, again, I don't know about that. Maybe they did incorporate some of the feedback, but it sounded like the impression was it was just an idea for consideration, and there wasn't a very big period of time before the next thing they know, here, we're doing it. I'm not surprised they're doing it. Maybe the feedback turns into, well, I talked to my wife and she said it was a good idea. Maybe not. Who knows? Maybe the feedback was used. Again, I'm reporting it so basically third hand. Yeah. But anyway, that was interesting. So anyway, so there's a fee. Another piece of news that we can hit on is Gary Stern. he had an interview with Martin with the head to head pinball and I have a link to that podcast episode in the show notes for those that want to hear it the interview is in the first part there's normally a lot so it's easy to find so there's one aspect that I wanted to focus on there's a lot of stuff in the interview but this is the part where Gary claimed that the pro models they do the pro premium LE and for them the pro is the cheap model they do the correct model as far as I'm concerned Unlike other places that make up stuff And just are Crap Like who? Like he who should not be named Why? Because he likes to make up stuff Yeah, well obviously He makes up his own model Okay, well That's true Ellie being the middle model is so confusing And then the extra confusion Of course with Chicago Gaming Because their CE is Classic Edition but collector's edition for Jersey Jack is the high end, but CE is the low end. It's just, wow. You need a key to be able to understand what's going on. So anyway, in the interview, Gary said, quote, if you take our pro model, it is underpriced. It is underpriced. We don't make enough money on it, but we think it is important for operators and for homeowners, end quote. What do you think of that statement? I can see it how do you interpret that statement the way that's the way I interpret that statement is specifically with we don't make enough money on it my assumption is that they have a like a lot of businesses when they do something they have a targeted percentage for profit and I don't think they make that targeted percentage I don't think they lose money because I think he would have said they lose money on each one All right. My guess is whatever they're targeted, like say they want a 5% profit, I don't know. Making a number up. So don't quote me on this. I'm just pulling a number out of my rear. If they want a 5% profit, they might hit that on the other models. On these, they don't hit that. But there's no way that they're – I would be in shock if they were just breaking even. There's no way they're losing money on these. This isn't like when Microsoft or Nintendo decides to sell their consoles and they're losing money on each console sale because they make it all up on game sales. Pinball doesn't work that way. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're making a marginal profit on pros compared to the others. I agree. And I had a conversation with Zach on the This Week in Pinball podcast about that. And he may have been, just for discussion purposes, fishing on that, wondering, did I interpret that as that they lose money? It's like, no. There's no way. It doesn't because you can't do a loss leader model in pinball where they're going to make their money back on toppers. There's no game to sell to put into the game. You can do that on consoles. There's a lot of things you can do that way. We often will refer to those sort of ideas, loss leader ideas. The thing I always think of is, it's called the razor and blade model where Gillette sells the Razor at a loss or gives it away because they're going to make the money on the cartridge blades. I got one on my 18th birthday from Gillette and I used it until I was like 26. Yeah, I think I remember getting one mailed to me. They found me somehow. Somehow, but it arrived. Yep. Right around my 18th birthday, here's this thing from Gillette and I used that one. It can work for Razors, it can work for consoles as you mentioned, another very famous thing from the ye olde days up through now printers and printer ink Uh Another big model Keurigs Mm That Yeah From everything I heard they make almost nothing on the machines themselves because it all about the specialty cups Yeah. That's why they put the sensors in so you could only use the real official cup. Printers started doing that with the ink, too. Uh-huh. About that. No, HP wants to use official HP ink because they don't make money when you go to Dollar Ink Club or whatever. Dollar Ink. Dollar Ink Club. So anyway. Just for ink. So we agree on that. So yeah, so that's the thing. Clearly, they have a certain profit margin. And the example I used on This Week in Pinball podcast that I'll use here as well is we saw this from Charlie Emery, head of Spooky Pinball, when he announced the production for Total Nuclear Annihilation. He came out and he said, we're not making as much on Total Nuclear Annihilation as we would normally profit on our other games. Right. But he didn't want to mark it up anymore because given it being single level, he thought not enough people would buy it. Which is very valid. Yes, it is. So last news item, Deep Root. I've pasted in here. I think I have a Twitter account now. And they shared some artwork that they're working on. I'm guessing it's for Raza because they described the character as a Martian princess. Yeah. Any thoughts? She looks like a Martian. I guess. I don't know if I could tell she's a princess per se, but. It's the hair. Okay. I mean, it's like, it's, how do I want to put it? It feels very, you're kind of pin-up-y, sci-fi, alien princess thing. That's what it feels like. Okay. You think it's sort of a cross between alien and cheesecake? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean Outfit that makes no sense Other than the fact that it's a black leather catsuit A giant gun And antenna I mean this is like And antenna This is like 1950's Sexy alien stuff Going on here I mean that's what it is Well given that video that we talked about Several episodes ago where they Did the whole you know it was the Explanation was that super wide screen and it kind of told the story of Raza and it was very 50s-esque. And the aliens are coming in and they are going to crash on an abandoned graveyard and an abandoned everything else. Yeah. So, yeah, do you think that... No, no, I think it fits fine. Okay. Do you think that people will like sort of the campy Raza? I do. I don't know how you'd make it not campy, quite frankly. Right, right. No, you have to. And here's the thing is, I like that kind of, I like that kind of. Style. Like schlocky type thing. Yeah. I mean, so I'm fine with it. Yeah. I thought the art looked fine. It's sort of, it's cartoony. I think that can go fine with pinball. Yeah. It's been a while since we've really seen cartoony in pinball, I think. Outside of Jetsons. Yeah. Which doesn't really count. Yeah. Though it looked good. Yeah. Too bad. Too bad about everything else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're done with pinball news. So we could have covered this next topic on the E3 episode, but it was the E3 episode. And when I set up the poll, I accidentally had it run for three weeks. No, you totally did that on purpose. That was just good planning so that we wouldn't have to worry about it during E3. Don't put that stuff off. You've got to lean into that one. I don't know. So anyway, so we're talking about the game that Tony created two episodes ago that we played, which was Munsters Replacement, which was what would have been a better sort of 60s era TV show to do by Stern Pinball as a pinball machine rather than the Munsters because everyone agrees that the Munsters was not the right pick. Yes. And so we have the results. For those that don't remember, it was Hogan's Heroes versus Mission Impossible. Those were the two Tony ran with Hogan's Heroes. I ended up running with Mission Impossible as the two that we weeded out through the list of like 32 shows that you started us with. Yeah. And the results were not close. No, but they were what I expected. They were what – I don't know. We'd have to go back and – I said at least 70% would go for Mission Impossible. Well, no, no, no. I expected Mission Impossible to win. Yes, you did say that. And it did. 77% to 23% for Hogan's Heroes. So it was brutal. Yeah, it was pretty bad. And from the comments, we were both wrong anyway. Well, we did. Yes. Now, we both thought that that was a possibility. Yes. Because we both said, okay, we want people to comment in the Facebook thread as to what theme they think would have been the best substitute for Munsters. What surprised me was how unified that was. That dancer, I expected to see a bunch of different things. It was pretty much one thing. Yes. Get smart. Yeah. And I get it. We understand. And I kind of feel bad because I fairly summarily ended up dismissing that as being too comedic. Because in the course of our discussions, we, at least for me, I at some point started shifting into things that were very, very serious. other than the monkeys as a music pin. Right. And so I started to rule out really comedic things. You obviously went a different route and were much more considerate of things like McHale's Navy, Hogan's Heroes, obviously, things that had the comedic element. So it kind of, in the end, became the serious show versus the fun show. Right. But Get Smart was one I had carried the furthest, and then I still think it fell in the quarterfinals or something. It did, yeah. It fell pretty. So anyway But there was a really good response to that game So at some point you should do the research And come up with another one Yes at some point When I remember how to play pinball Maybe do one with 80's movies To replace Ghostbusters I don't think I'd want to replace Ghostbusters Well Maybe we don't couch it on replacing anything And just say what would have been a really good thing What would have been a really good Radio drama from the 20's To make into a pinball machine to replace the theme of The Shadow with Alec Baldwin. Because no one liked that movie. Interesting. Maybe just do something a little more modern. I don't think anything could possibly beat War of the Worlds. Yeah, probably not. But especially if it's a drama. So we could do something like what like campy, cheesy 80s or 90s action movie you know the standard you know i'm talking like commando yeah yeah so generic action the generic action movie you know another one could be that would be fun could be to do to go alongside uh goldeneye what's another james bond movie that should have been one movie that should be made into a pinball machine because james bond's had the kind of generic gotley timed one with roger more on it, but it wasn't based off a specific bond. And other than that, there's only Goldfinger. Not Goldfinger, sorry. Goldeneye. There's too many Golds. Because there's a man with a golden gun as well. Goldeneye, the first Pierce Brosnan one. It has the game with the satellite. Yeah, that could be a good one. We'll have to think about it. That one already got made. No, no, no. That game would be a good one. That concept game. I kind of like this concept game thing. Well, it just, the crowd reacted, so I'm noting it. And speaking of crowd reactions, the last thing in pinball, 20 questions. We haven't played it in quite a while. Because I lost. And I was giving you time to heal. And now those wounds are healed. Yes, now that I haven't played pinball in forever. But that doesn't matter, because I could dredge up something from decades ago. Well, maybe not. But for those that are new to our game here, in 20 questions, Tony will get to ask me a series of questions that are designed for yes or no answers about a pinball machine. It will be a flipper pinball machine, and it will be a pinball machine that I know he's played. For the first 15 questions, he just has to use his mind. But after question 15, for the 16th through 20th, he may use IPDB, Pinside, other online sources. And still lose. And other sources in order to help narrow things down and such. And the odds of victory generally are very high because of that structure. Except for when it's not. Except for, well, there were reasons, and I understand the reasons. We sometimes have hiccups in the game. It happens. But I'm very confident this time. I believe in you. I think you're back on form. I think you're rested and you're ready. Oh, man, war games. War games would be an awesome pinball machine. You push start and it has to say, would you like to play? Oh, we already won an 80s thing. Video mode. How about a nice game of tic-tac-toe? And then you have to play tic-tac-toe. And you lose because it's a computer. It cheats. Okay. Whenever you're ready to ask your first question. You could activate a mode where the machine actually will play itself for a little while? Yeah. Okay, is it an EM? No. Is it newer than 1990? Yes. Is it newer than 2000? No. Hmm. How do I want to do this? Is it Striker Extreme? No. Okay. I just had to get it out of the way because it was going to be stuck in my head forever otherwise. Just so you know, Striker Extreme was the year 2000. Was it? Yeah. I thought it was earlier than that. I thought it was 98 or 99. So, see, that's what I get for not having everything memorized. So, is it a Bally? With the standard rules that I understand that Bally is Welly, Bally, and William. Yes. That's question five. Let's see. Is it 95 or newer? Yes. Is it a licensed theme? No. See, normally this would be one of those where I would start locking the year down. Right. But I don't know the years of machines good enough. That wouldn't help me. Well, what other things could you use to rule out games, given what you already know? Non-licensed, 95 to 99 Bally. I could use, because I kind of got burned using theme last time because I made some assumptions after using it. I could use mechanics. Does it have more than two flippers? No. Does it use a button instead of a plunger? Yes. Is it AFM? Yes. That was the 10th. You know what's annoying? It crossed my mind on the 95-99, so that was four questions earlier. I told you I felt good about this one for you. For those that aren't aware, Attack from Mars is AFM. It's Tony's favorite game of all time. It is. I thought I was being really nuts. It's a two-flipper game. It's 95. It is trademarked as a Bally. So asking if it was a Bally specifically as well. Did clarify and quantify that. No, it's an auto plunge, so it's got the button. No actual manual plunger. And December of 95 was when it was manufactured. So it's just right there in, well, almost a year in to your range. You could have asked about the designer. It was Brian Eddy Design. That was the question that when I asked about flippers, I was thinking, because I was wondering if it would have been that or Medieval Madness. Right, right. So I thought about it. Lime and Sheets software. It was confirmed by George Gomez that this was not based on the movie or anything. It was unlicensed. It was coincidence that Mars Attacks came out within a year of the pen. Yeah. Well, the aliens are very different looking. Yeah. So, anyway. And you've played it, obviously. Obviously, I've played it. Because, again, like I said, it is my favorite game. And did well. Got it on. That was. You named it on the 10th one, according to my numbers. That might be my best finish ever. I don't think so. I think I did one better, actually. So, we've got it on the website. You have all the things on our website. Right, right. There's a section. If you go to EclecticGamers.com, up at the top, there's a category called 20 questions. And you can see how we've done on things before. And actually, no, this is your new best. You had two ties. No, Rob Zombie you got on 10. Yeah, I got Rob Zombie on 10. So this tie is your best. So it is your best. Yeah. Good job. Nothing as good as your five. Nick Baldrige's nine, which was really impressive on Sing Along. Yeah, you know, I should have done a Solid State era game with him. He would have made sense. That was pity. I was merciful. Though, again, he knows so many of them. See, his head could be crowded with stuff like that. Sing-Along is a good game, though. That was the one we did with him. Sing-Along is a good game. Yeah, I like it. All right. Good job, Tony. Yay, me. Redemption. So, we ready to move on into video games? You know the sad thing is that we are at this point With this game I'm pretty much just going to have to guess Striker Extreme at this point every time Because the one time I don't just throw it out there It's going to be the time you actually have chosen I thought about it yet again And I thought he's probably going to throw it out there I almost threw it out there as number one Just to do it The problem is I don't know if I could ever I'm so tempted to do it to you Because it would be funny Oh it would be so hilarious But I don't know if I could live with myself with you having a guess on one and knowing that nothing can ever be better than a guess on one. The best I could ever do is hope to tie it. And I never throw out game names as the first guess. I'd have to start at that point. Right, just to have the hope. I've played so many. The odds are not in my... Especially because games can repeat. Yep. The rules are just that I played it. So every year that passes, it just gets harder. Because we've done one repeat that I didn't remember was a repeat when I did it. Well, I know you have like three video game news items. Yeah, there's not a lot because E3, there's been some stuff going over. And again, I've not been tracking news or playing games nearly as much as I should, working on stuff around the house and family deals and stuff. But I was talking to one of my good friends who still plays EVE a lot. I've spoken about EVE on this show in the past, how it is the one MMO that I would really love to continue to play if I had the time and the money for it because of its depth and its sandboxing nature. Well, EVE has always been a huge sandbox. It's broken into three segments. There's high sec, which is lots of PVE. There's a PVE NPC faction that sets rules, so inside high sec you have to follow those rules so you can't be, you know, a trolly ganker type person. Then there's low sec where it's kind of an in-between area. They'll still show up for some stuff, but the AIs are a lot stronger on the PVE content. And then there's NullSec where there's PBE content and the AIs are stronger, but the vast majority of NullSec is driven by players and their corporations. And some of these corporations will number 10,000 or 15,000 players in a corporation or an alliance of smaller corporations that work together and they actually physically hold large swathes of space. and they fight each other to get new areas and they fight each other just because, just to be trolls and to get resources. And in EVE, everything is driven in EVE economically from a player base. Everything good is made, manufactured, hauled to market, sold by the player base, not by NPCs. Well, what has happened was, during an update, there was a new type of enemy AI that appeared during a previous update, and they were called the Drifters. And those AIs acted a little different than the AIs of the older PvE content. Drifters would, if you ran away, if you came under attack and you escaped and you ran away, they would chase you Like, through the system. So you couldn't just warp away to a different point in the system and then wait for them to despawn and go back. Because they would chase you down. Battlestar Galactica style. Exactly. Wow. And instead of just using basic strategies, they would use more refined strategies like USC and actual PvP content. But even then, they weren't a huge deal. It had actually come to a point where they were farmed because what people would do is they would go out and trigger them, and then they would fly back to their giant player-made star bases and space stations and let the defensive weapons take them out, and then they'd gather the loot. Okay, makes sense. So it would just become another little loot pinion and that it The latest update was titled Invasion When they did it it general things like they always do on their updates But CCP, the creators of the game, were very mum about what else could happen. They were just a general update. They put out the normal stuff. Nobody thought anything about it other than the fact that it was called Invasion. and then suddenly on Wednesday of last week, the leaders of all of the major NullSec corporations and alliances and all the players in NullSec started getting chains of alarms of their star bases being under attack. Not like one star base, like huge swaths of them. And when they jumped in, they all thought, oh, one of our enemies, are launching a deep raid. They're just being annoying. They're whatever. They're being trolly. Okay, we'll defend against it. And they jumped in. Drifter battle fleets. Drifter battle fleets all over the game in Null Space. They're putting bases into reinforced timers everywhere and then leaving. Because how a starbase thing works in EVE is you beat on it for a while and it goes into reinforce. And when it goes into reinforce, you can't damage it anymore. and you can't damage it for like 15 hours. So you knock it into reinforce, you go away. 15 hours later, you come back, you hit it again. There's a window when you come back when it's hittable again before it comes back to full strength. You hit it again for a while. It knocks down into a second layer of reinforce. You go away. You come back. You finish it off. You destroy it. Okay, so it's like to give a breather so that the operator of it has a chance. Has a chance. To build up something. Yeah, that has a chance to get online because you're not online 20%. Yeah, yeah. So these fleets started appearing all over NullSec and putting stations into reinforce. Now, from what I've read, they've not been coming back to knock it out. They're just causing lots of damage, including destroying a very expensive fit, super capital ships, and wiping out lots and lots of players who try to fight them. But there have been so many of them, they've been all over the place, and they've been hitting so hard that the players and their corporations have had to break off wars, retreat from fighting each other to defend their interior systems. And at this point, as of the last updates I read, most of the player base in EVE in the NullSec, even the alliances that have been at war for literal years, are working together to try and figure out what's going on. because when people have sent messages to CCP, all CCP has said is that it's not a bug. And they won't say anything else. And when various news organizations like PC Gamer and Kotaku and Polygon and stuff have reached out to them for information about it, all CCP will say is, well, we tried to contact the drifters, but they're not answering our hails. But they did send us this picture, and the picture is a map of Eve, and then right beside it is a map of Eve, but all of NullSec is red and just says Drifters. So literally all they've done is memes. Nobody knows anything. The corporations and the alliances are starting to figure out the rules. From the sounds of it, the interest is generated enough has done something big. big. It's gotten Eve a big jolt back to their player base. A lot of resubscribes from people who've been out for a while. We'll see if this continues. We'll see what their endgame plan is. It's just interesting to me that they've made such a big change. They're just staying so silent on it. They're just like, huh, don't know. It's not a bug. Don't know what's coming next. So it'll be interesting to see if they're going to do this and then it will start I mean, will they start coming back and hitting the reinforced timers when they come off? It's possible. I don't know. Nobody knows what they're going to do, but it's going to be interesting to see if this is a major change and a major shakeup to the universe or if it's just a little short time event. I know some people, like the head of one of the largest alliances, which is the Imperium I think is what they call themselves now this alliance existed when I played Eve except for they went under a different title but it was still basically it was goons it was goonswarm and their associated alliances but that alliance has been led by the Mitanni for I don't know a decade or more he led it when I played and I haven't played since before my second child was born. So, it'll be interesting to see if they keep going more, if this gets bigger, or, I mean, this could be Eve's gone to a free-to-play model. They've been having reductions and stuff. They've been interesting. They could be setting the stage for totally burning down the null sec for a rebuild and a re... I mean, when everything is as situated and everybody's as entrenched as they are, they have to do something major. Right. So that's been the thoughts online. It's like, are they getting ready to burn NullSec to force everybody into doing different stuff to shake up the universe? Do they have an actual endgame planned instead of just being one of those games that fizzles out? Are they looking to do a massive shakeup so they can do major changes to what comes in? And what would something like that cost to their player base? Don't know. It's all speculation. Hopefully we'll see some more coming, and I'm kind of interested to see what's going to happen. Next thing is only kind of video game related. With the end of Game of Thrones, there are so many fantasy-based stuff out there. The Witcher TV series is coming to Netflix soon. Yeah, I heard about that. Amazon Prime is doing two fantasy shows. They're doing a Lord of the Rings show that is set before The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings and all that. It's like a prequel show. And they're doing The Wheel of Time, which my wife is super excited for and I'm super excited for because it's a really enjoyable series. But somebody else decided to jump in on it. Square Enix decided to jump in on it. So we're looking at a television series based on Final Fantasy XIV. I didn't even know that XIV was popular enough to warrant this. Apparently it is. That's their new MMO. That's the one that replaced XI. It's been around for years, so I'm using new in an air quotes fashion, because Final Fantasy XI was their first MMO. Tony and I played that. It was fun. they wound that down after Final Four they launched Final Fantasy XIV and it was a mess and they rebuilt it from the ground up and it became, my understanding, a very good, competent MMO but it's never rivaled say, World of Warcraft or anything but what has? well, nothing's been that high but it was just, again, I don't know it confuses me because I don't know what the narrative is like with it, whereas other Final Fantasies There have been movies that have spun off of Final Fantasy VII, for example. You can do things with those. The characters are really fleshed out in the single-player ones. And I could see you take... It wouldn't have to be VII. You could do VI. You could take any sort of Final Fantasy and say, here are these characters, and introduce them and all that. I guess you can do it with XIV too, but no one cares about Galkas. That's what I'm saying. I was wondering the same thing. So as I looked into it more, apparently there is an overall narrative thread in XIV that I never felt XI had. XI did, in a way. Like, each kingdom had a... But it was so hard to go through because you'd have to... Like, every ten levels, could you then do the next one or otherwise you'd just get owned. Right. It was hard to... You couldn't really... Unless you were fully leveled and walking, like, some noob through. You couldn't really experience the story in a summary section in a way that was like, oh, I get it. This is what's going on. It's like six months later, you're like, well, I don't remember the boss part, but we're on mission 6-2 now, so let's continue. Let's do it. Let's do 6-2. So apparently, we'll see. With everything coming in trying to replace Game of Thrones, I mean, there's even Game of Thrones prequels coming in and this and that. So we'll see what's going to happen. I don't know. I know in my personal opinion, if they all failed except for the Wheel of Time and it was amazing, I'd be a happy man. Maybe that will be what occurs. And my last little bit that I wanted to tap on is, and it actually bookends real nice to how we started with hatred and anger. We started this episode with hatred and anger. We're going to end this episode with hatred and anger. So back during BlizzCon, you remember us talking about the rage of, you all own phones, don't you? They even One of the casters Yesterday or the day before On Overwatch League Even used that line During Blizzard's Overwatch League stream A game was getting started And they popped up one of the promos And he goes, you all own phones, don't you? And I thought, oh I think it was similar Of course it would be similar So he might be fine We don't know He could be But anyway, so go on with the rage I remember the rage There was all the rage because they made all this big noise And they'd hit All of the Diablo related forums about big Diablo Announcements And we talked back then Like the week before BlizzCon They hit all the things and started dialing it back hard Because it was all assumption That Diablo 4 was coming And they took bad hits because of it Well Blizzard is known as a PC gaming company so that they spent so much time on a mobile game was going to be... The only way it wouldn't have been doomed to failure would have been if they had some big PC thing. And the rumors have always been it's Diablo 4. We're not aware of anything else in close enough development that we expected another... We're not expecting a Starcraft 3 immediately or an Overwatch 2 or anything. No, that'll be this year. but there are now reports that they have actually shown Diablo 4. We know that they have shifted developers because they once again canceled and shut down a first-person StarCraft game and shifted the developers to the Diablo team. And they've been hiring more Diablo-related developers for months now. It's been out there. you've seen them in the forums and the stuff talking about it. But now they've internally shown a version of Diablo 4 to employees, is what the rumors are stating and the leaks are stating. Well, that's good. That's good. That's not rage at all. That's not rage at all. Actually, there's some fair amount of rage, because there's a lot of people who don't care anymore. They won't play it because of what happened to BlizzCon. Even if they dropped it, even if they dropped it tomorrow as a perfect, complete, the ultimate Diablo game, there are people who are like, I won't play it. People, we're talking just consumers in general? There are consumers out there on the forums who are flat out, they're so angry. They're so angry over what happened at last BlizzCon, they'll never play another Diablo game. But is it real? I don't know. Look at pinball people who are a bunch who said, well, I ain't buying Pirates because there's no triple-spinning disc, and now they all try and buy it. I'm not. I won't buy Pirates because it sucks. Because they lie. And they lie. But the... They lie like scurvy. But my point is, in the pinball hobby, especially with new-in-box buyers, they are notoriously picky and also notoriously weak. They are. They are. I'm sure these people will. They have no... There's like no impulse control and they just spend their money like water. And it's their money, so they can do what they want. But I'm just saying, I see the weakness. Don't think you're fooling anyone. And I'm sure they will purchase it. So there's still so much rage about BlizzCon. There is still so much rage about it. And a lot of what you would consider excitement is very tempered by what happened. Now, the one thing is there are thoughts that it could be announced at BlizzCon this year. Because Blizzard is not going to be at GDC this year. Oh, okay. They've already said that. So the next possible platform for them to do any announcements this year for anything will be BlizzCon. So the assumption is they might be at BlizzCon and announce a 2020 release. They're also running assumptions is that we'll probably hear more about Overwatch 2 at BlizzCon this year. Right, which I believe that's a single-player game is what they're doing with that. Yep, that's what all the leaks are saying That's a single player game So that's how they're going to drop another Overwatch And not replace Overwatch Right, because they're still doing so much development On the Overwatch multiplayer They've got a whole plan with I've heard they've got a number of characters Actively in development It's working for them and they don't want to Sever their player base As they're eSporting it The last plan that I heard That was semi-agreed Is that they had like 36 planned characters. Yeah, that sounds like what I heard as well. And, I mean, it's been a while, but that's another 10 characters on top of what? We're up to, what, 28 now? Yeah, somewhere in that. 26, 28? 26 to 28, I think. So we're looking at at least another 10 characters. They just teased a new one last week. And with the esports thing and this and that, even though I continue to hear that Overwatch League is dead. Paid actors. They're all paid actors. and paid actors and people farming tokens who don't actually watch. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. So, I mean, it doesn't matter if they're actively watching or not. It's still getting the hits and the views and the ad revenue. I mean, I looked during this week and even with the later start time because they were doing the three games during the weekdays, 60 to 65,000 viewers listed and Games Done Quick was going, which had 100,000. Right. So, I mean, Overwatch is usually in the top two lists of Twitch. It is. Even when there's not League going. When League's going, it's usually top three. Right. And then that's the other thing is when you look at it is it is almost always, all the Twitch numbers are just like the U.S. and Europe Twitch numbers because the Chinese and Korean Twitch numbers are even higher. And most of the stuff's aired on ESPN And then Disney XD Shows some of the matches Normally like one or two matches a week They usually get like a two hour block Two to four hour block Okay well we'll see if people don't buy the Diablo I agree that BlizzCon last year Was weak Oh the whole of BlizzCon last year was terrible I guess I don't see the point about having a bad Convention And holding that over the games I don't get it Yeah. You've already sent your message about what you expect, and the reaction to the do you all have phones has been sufficiently ravaged apart. Right. Well, and there's also still a lot of hatred for the, oh, we had record profits. Let's lay off a bunch of people. Yeah, well, you know, that's what happens when you have Activision own you. Right. Yeah, no, that sucked too. So I could understand more about people saying, until, like, I won't buy another Activision Blizzard or otherwise game until Bobby's terminated. Yeah. I could see that. I know there's, I've seen multiple calls since Bungie made its separation from Activision, people saying that unless Blizzard separates from Activision, they're done with Blizzard titles. Okay. Maybe they'll hold to their guns. Most people I know talk a good game. I'm not even going to say that. You can't play it. I'll be honest. You can't play it. If Diablo 4 looks halfway decent, I'll play Diablo. No, well, I'm not. I'm not abandoning Overwatch. I love Overwatch. No, it's not. I don't. My daughter named her dog Dixie Reinhardt. Yeah. Her new puppy, she named him Dixie Reinhardt. Yeah. Overwatch has our family. Mm-hmm. It happens. But maybe the Wheel of Time will free you. No. The Wheel weaves is the Wheel wills. Okay. Well, it's time for us to will the end of this episode We've gotten to the finish So those of you who want to complain about what we said And how you will never buy another one of our games again You can write to us at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com Or reach out to us at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast We're available on Twitch Primarily when Dennis is streaming pinball And Instagram and Twitter is eclectic underscore gamers And that's it, we'll be back in a couple weeks Until then, I'm Dennis I'm Tony. Bye. See ya.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

---

*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 02522d33-5a91-4670-8994-c14b9235768d*