# Ep 30: Seasoned Veterans **Source:** Final Round Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2021-03-27 **Duration:** 119m 7s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.finalroundpinball.com/final-round-pinball-podcast-ep-30-seasoned-veterans/ --- ## Analysis In Episode 30 of Final Round Pinball Podcast, hosts Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins celebrate the show's 30-episode milestone while interviewing Eric Meunier, designer of Jersey Jack Pinball's Guns N' Roses. The conversation covers the game's delayed 2019 launch due to COVID-19, JJP's factory relocation from New Jersey to Illinois, the collaborative design process, Eric's philosophy of rejecting mediocrity and pushing design boundaries, and the future possibility of remaking Pirates of the Caribbean as a wide-body machine. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Guns N' Roses was ready to launch at TPF in March 2020 with 12-14 fully-built prototypes before COVID-19 hit — _Eric Meunier directly stated this in the interview; collector edition cards signed by Slash are dated 2019 as evidence_ - [HIGH] Jersey Jack Pinball moved its factory from Lakewood, New Jersey to Elk Grove Village, Illinois in February 2020 — _Eric stated he was told on February 14th, 2020 of the factory move; he was directly involved in the transition_ - [HIGH] The Wizard of Oz had a higher bill of material cost than Guns N' Roses — _Eric directly compared the two games' BOM costs when asked if GNR had the highest BOM for JJP_ - [HIGH] Jersey Jack had to implement a price increase primarily due to bill of material cost increases from January 2020 to October 2020 — _Eric explicitly stated the price increase was necessary and attributed the 'lion's share' to BOM increases during this period_ - [HIGH] Guns N' Roses playfield map has 53 lights representing over 199 concert locations the band played through 2018 — _Eric detailed the process of creating the map using Excel and a custom map point generator to fit venue locations_ - [HIGH] Guns N' Roses is currently backordered by several thousand units — _Eric stated 'we're backlogged several thousand Guns N' Roses' when discussing production pipeline capacity_ - [HIGH] Pirates of the Caribbean has sold at confirmed prices of $30,000+ for collector's editions on the secondary market — _Both hosts cited confirmed secondary market sales data for Pirates LE editions_ - [HIGH] Pirates of the Caribbean required more man-hours to build than any other JJP game — _Eric directly compared manufacturing effort and costs between Pirates and other JJP titles_ ### Notable Quotes > "I never let go of any aspect of my game. Like, literally every single detail. I am just like, I have my claws in it, and I refuse to." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~23:00 > _Reveals Eric's hands-on design philosophy and total creative control approach, including signing under plot bumpers_ > "Keith's rules are the reason that I got into pinball. I mean, playing Lord of the Rings, it's the first game I played, and I understood that pinball could be more than just keep the ball alive." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~31:00 > _Explains Eric's respect for Keith Elwin's rules design and the formative influence of LOTR on his entry into pinball_ > "I refuse to take the easy path. I refuse to just say that's good enough, much to the chagrin of the people who manage at Jersey Jack Pinball." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~42:00 > _Core statement of Eric's design philosophy—pushing boundaries and challenging established conventions despite management friction_ > "Like what? Well, like messing with the apron. You know, like I got pushed back internally on putting that ball lock under the apron, and I just asked why." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~43:00 > _Exemplifies Eric's willingness to challenge established pinball design dogma (e.g., modifying traditional playfield elements)_ > "No, I don't know it's going to work. Well, that's what I'm trying to work out. Like, let's face it. New designer, right? You're now designing new machines. You're getting funky with aprons." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~46:00 > _Admits uncertainty about novel design ideas while maintaining commitment to iterative problem-solving_ > "It's somewhere in between. I mean, there's no reason that we entered contract negotiations to do that, to see if it's possible." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~62:00 > _Confirms JJP is actively exploring Pirates of the Caribbean remake feasibility; indicates ongoing licensing negotiations_ > "When you look at the cost to build and the cost to buy for the build material, it's all significantly higher than something like Guns N' Roses, for example." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~63:00 > _Quantifies production cost difference between Pirates (wide-body) and GNR (standard body)_ > "right now, the way our factory is designed and built, it's built around standard body games. So all of our rotisseries, all of our cabinet holders, all of our packing material, Everything's built around standard edition games." > — **Eric Meunier**, ~65:00 > _Reveals significant infrastructure constraints limiting JJP's ability to return to wide-body production without major retooling_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Eric Meunier | person | Jersey Jack Pinball game designer and electrical engineer; designer of Guns N' Roses and Pirates of the Caribbean | | Jeff Teolis | person | Host of Final Round Pinball Podcast | | Martin Robbins | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer; relocated factory from Lakewood, NJ to Elk Grove Village, IL in 2020 | | Guns N' Roses | game | Jersey Jack Pinball machine; originally planned for TPF March 2020 launch, delayed due to COVID-19; nominated for multiple Twippe awards including Game of the Year | | Pirates of the Caribbean | game | Jersey Jack wide-body pinball machine; high secondary market value ($30,000+ for LE); licensing status uncertain due to Johnny Depp involvement | | Keith Elwin | person | Pinball rules designer; collaborated with Eric on GNR rules; designer of Lord of the Rings; highly respected by Eric for rules philosophy | | Jean-Paul DeWin | person | Jersey Jack Pinball executive; provided art direction guidance for GNR with illustrator Dane | | Pat Lawlor | person | Legendary pinball designer; designed factory layout for JJP's Illinois facility | | Bill Grupp | person | Jersey Jack Pinball programmer; took on leadership role in factory operations | | Peter Dorn | person | Jersey Jack Pinball mechanical engineer; designed moving spotlight mechanism for GNR using servo motors | | Dane | person | Illustrator for GNR artwork; works in tableau style; first experience with modular playfield art | | Slash | person | Guns N' Roses guitarist; provided voice work and signed collector edition cards (dated 2019); reluctant public speaker | | Duff McKagan | person | Guns N' Roses bassist; provided 400-500 lines of voice work for GNR pinball; engaged in recording session with Eric | | Melissa Etheridge | person | Voice talent for GNR; recorded from personal mobile studio via Skype; brought high energy to voice work | | Twippe Awards | event | Community awards for pinball games; GNR nominated for multiple categories including Game of the Year | | Lord of the Rings | game | Pinball machine designed by Keith Elwin; formative game that inspired Eric Meunier to enter pinball design | | The Hobbit | game | Jersey Jack Pinball machine; Eric was working on this as electrical engineer when he developed prototype lit-up spinner (2014) | | Stern Pinball | company | Competing pinball manufacturer; JJP recruited several workers from Stern during factory ramp-up | | Second City | organization | Comedy writing company; provided freelance comedy writer for GNR call-outs script | | Texas Pinball Festival | event | Event where GNR was originally scheduled to launch in March 2020 with prototypes | ### Topics - **Primary:** Guns N' Roses game design philosophy and development, COVID-19 impact on pinball manufacturing and product launches, Jersey Jack Pinball factory relocation and infrastructure challenges, Bill of material costs and pricing strategy, Design innovation and boundary-pushing in pinball, Pirates of the Caribbean remake feasibility and licensing challenges - **Secondary:** Collaborative design process and team dynamics, Voice acting and script direction for pinball call-outs ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.78) — Eric is reflective and proud of GNR's achievements (Game of the Year nomination), though candid about manufacturing challenges and constraints. Hosts are enthusiastic and congratulatory. Some frustration expressed regarding design compromise (Pirates wide-body infrastructure) and secondary market speculation, but overall tone is collaborative and celebratory. ### Signals - **[product_launch]** Guns N' Roses originally planned for March 2020 TPF launch with 12-14 prototypes ready; delayed due to COVID-19 and factory relocation (confidence: high) — Eric: 'It was ready to launch. Where were you going to launch it? I wanted to launch it at Texas' and 'it had to be 2020. It had to be March 2020' - **[manufacturing_signal]** Jersey Jack relocated factory from Lakewood, NJ to Elk Grove Village, IL in February 2020; required institutional knowledge rebuilding and infrastructure redesign (confidence: high) — Eric: 'I was told on February 14th of 2020 that we were going to move the factory to Elk Grove' and discussion of lost institutional knowledge from veteran NJ workers - **[supply_chain_signal]** Bill of material costs increased significantly from January 2020 to October 2020 due to COVID-19 tariffs and inflation; drove JJP price increase (confidence: high) — Eric: 'the COVID prices just shot everything up through the roof' and 'the lion's share of that was because of how much the bill of material price went up' - **[design_innovation]** GNR features custom lit-up polycarbonate spinners with counterweighting (developed in 2014 prototype), modified apron ball lock, and moving spotlights using servo motors (confidence: high) — Eric detailed spinner development: 'I had the working prototype on my desk...I wired up an Arduino. I hooked it up to an RGB and an opto' and discussion of apron modifications and moving spotlight design - **[design_philosophy]** Eric rejects established pinball conventions and asks 'why' rather than accepting status quo; willing to experiment with novel approaches despite internal pushback (confidence: high) — Eric: 'I refuse to take the easy path. I refuse to just say that's good enough' and multiple examples of challenging established design norms - **[code_update]** Power Chord edition received code update adding multiplier effect to Duff base ramp shot; driven by in-office collaborative playtesting (confidence: high) — Eric: 'when Joe and Keith were playing in the office a couple weeks ago, they had this idea' and 'adding this multiplier effect for shooting duff, making that shot more interesting' - **[competitive_signal]** Guns N' Roses nominated for multiple Twippe Awards including Game of the Year; final videos submitted for virtual award ceremony (confidence: high) — Eric discussed preparing acceptance video for 'potential game of the year' and other team member thank-you videos for respective award categories - **[licensing_signal]** Jersey Jack actively exploring Pirates of the Caribbean remake viability; in contract negotiations to assess Johnny Depp licensing and production feasibility (confidence: high) — Eric: 'there's no reason that we entered contract negotiations to do that, to see if it's possible' and discussion of licensing and infrastructure constraints - **[manufacturing_signal]** JJP factory currently optimized for standard-body production; returning to wide-body production (e.g., Pirates) would require significant rotisserie and packing material retooling (confidence: high) — Eric: 'our factory is designed and built, it's built around standard body games...All of our rotisseries, all of our cabinet holders...Everything's built around standard edition games' - **[product_strategy]** GNR is backordered by several thousand units; production pipeline prioritizes completing existing commitments before new wide-body production (confidence: high) — Eric: 'we're backlogged several thousand Guns N' Roses, and then, you know, there's another game in the pipeline and another game after that' - **[market_signal]** Pirates of the Caribbean collector editions confirmed selling for $30,000+ on secondary market; high FOMO and rarity driving prices (confidence: high) — Hosts: 'confirmed sales for $30,000 for the collector's edition' of Pirates - **[personnel_signal]** Jersey Jack recruited multiple workers from Stern during factory ramp-up in Illinois (confidence: medium) — Eric: 'I've heard through the grapevine that it seemed there were just waves of people coming from Stern to work for us. It happened.' --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Nobody thought we would make it this far. 30. And I'm not just talking about the show, but I mean age as well. Hi, I'm Jeff Teolis. Hi, I'm Martin Robbins. And yes, 30. I can't remember 30 in age. You obviously couldn't because you're significantly older than me. But, you know, 30 is a significant number in our lives, and we've done well to get this far. As long as the paychecks keep coming in, yeah, we've done well, quote-unquote well. But really, it's been a lot of fun doing this for over a year now, and boy, 30. What was it like when you turned 30? To be fair, I can't really remember it. It was obviously 20 years ago, 21 years ago. Yeah, I don't know. I still was very optimistic about a lot of things, I would say. See, I was bummed out. I was fine at 20. I was fine at 40. Fine at 50. I mean, very good at 50. Very successful at 50. I'm just going to leave it at that. It was a lot of fun. But at 30, I was bummed out because I was like, oh, I should be more responsible now. I should be getting on with life. I should be having a better career, a family, all that kind of things. Had none of it, really. I guess what I'm saying is we should look back at Final Round and should we be ashamed of what we've done? Or should we be proud of what we've done? Can we be any better? Can we be any more mature? I think only one of those two things is possible. I have no idea which one. Write into FinalRoundPinball at gmail.com and you tell us which one. I do think this episode's going to be pretty darn good. We've got a special guest. You know him, you love him. you're probably enjoying his latest game from Jersey Jack Pinball, Guns N' Roses. The designer, Eric Menier, joins us. Hey, Eric, how are you? I'm doing very well, gentlemen. Thank you for having me. How's COVID been for you? We like to start with that because... Because it's fun? Because it's fun. It just brings us so much joy. But you've released a game in the middle. How's it been for you? COVID really is, obviously, for everyone, for the entire world. has really just messed with all of us. For us at JJP, it was trying to wrap a silver lining on it because guns was ready to go in 2019. It was ready to launch. Where were you going to launch it? I wanted to launch it at Texas and was fully capable, had all the prototypes built, had 12 or 14 of them, including two collectors, two standards, and then 10 LEs. We were going to bring them all down to Texas. and, you know, wow the world, and Slash wasn't able to make it, but he was going to video in from Mexico, where they were touring, and then shit just hit the fan. And instead of showing a game that wasn't 100% software complete, with all the modes and rules and everything in there, we wound up just holding it close to our chest. So it had to be 2020. It had to be March 2020 you were going to release it at TPF. The game was done in 2019. Yeah. which is why I'm pretty sure, yeah, the collector edition cards that are signed by Slash are all dated 2019. I got some shit for that. Who cares? Someone cares, apparently. Why is it signed from 2019? Because Slash and Duff and Axel signed them over a year ago, because that's when I thought we were going to launch the game. But what happened is the pivot when COVID hit is also the time that we internally announced that we were moving our factory from Lakewood, New Jersey, to Elk Grove Village, Illinois. I was told on February 14th of 2020 that we were going to move the factory to Elk Grove. And I was very excited to have the factory, to be able to work in the factory every day, to be on the line every day, to see my game that I knew was coming, that was supposed to be being built, be there with it every single day it was going down the line. So I was excited. I was also a little upset that I wasn't going to see all the staff that I'd grown with the company from Jersey come out here. but that's how things go. So we've got more factory workers now and made some new friends, and we're making our games. A lot of people sort of say moving factories is such a big deal and it's really disruptive. It's not really, is it? Well, the logistics of just moving a factory aren't all that difficult. I mean, it's like, okay, you draw out your plans, and Pat Lawler did most of the design layout for the factory and how it was going to work, Bill Grupp, who's one of our programmers, has taken a more leadership role in the factory now. So the logistics of planning a factory, it takes a lot of work, don't get me wrong, but it's not terribly difficult. It's expensive. I think the biggest loss is in the institutional knowledge of the workers. No line leads, no managers, no people with line experience other than those who may have worked at other pinball factories in the past coming to work for us. Steal them from Stern. Go ahead. I've heard through the grapevine that it seemed there were just waves of people coming from Stern to work for us. It happened. But I think that was the greatest difficulty was the institutional knowledge, just getting people trained on how to build pinball. You know, it's not a toaster oven. You have to care. You have to understand what you're doing when you're screwing screws in. You know, if you can't slip, you can't miss, you can't screw it up. So I think that was the hardest part, hardest aspect of the move was reinstituting that knowledge that was lost from all of our wonderful factories, workers out in New Jersey. So with the delay then from when you thought it was going to launch to when it did, obviously you said you got to complete the software. That's great. Was there anything that you needed to change to the hardware given that you had more time? I mean, there's always like small tweaks that happen. but now the bill of material, I stamped every single drawing and it was all ready to go. Um, like I think January 15th of 2020. So I'm not allowed to make any changes after that. Like this is what we bought. Eric, you signed off on this. This is what we're buying. All of these several hundred unique parts plus several thousand common parts. Those are what we're using and you are going to use them come hell or high water. And you know, sometimes hell comes and you got to change parts. That bill of material though, Is that the most expensive for Jersey Jack based on a lot of factors? Inflation, COVID, tariffs, the move. Is this the biggest bill of material we've seen for any of their machines? No. Oh, wow. The original Wizard of Oz costs so much more. And honestly, our bill of material has gotten lower and lower for every game. Well, that's good. Yes. Hey, we saw that in the savings with Luanka. Right. And then we had the savings again with GNR. It was slightly lower, but then the COVID prices just shot everything up through the roof. I mean, our bill of material went up significantly to the point where, like, it's not unknown, Jersey Jack had a price increase. And, like, that was needed because of how much our bill of material went up. And it's, yeah, you know, it's a very tough pill to swallow. But like there is just not the profit built in, especially with the move, especially with hiring new workers, especially with all those factors, COVID, delay in the timeline, et cetera, et cetera. That price increase, the lion's share of that was because of how much the bill of material price went up from January of 2020 to like October 2020. I can only imagine it was night and day. And then, of course, a lot of people, probably not a shock to you, had a good idea Guns N' Roses was coming from Jersey Jack. And then you've got that delay, so there's more and more, when is it coming, when is it coming? Was the big delay because of COVID? Because you said you were ready to go in maybe January, show it at TPF in March of 2020, which didn't happen. But that extra time with COVID, with the factory change, did it maybe increase the code, make it a little more full? Were there different tweaks you could do to the game in that time when you actually showed the final game? Definitely. I mean, we can look at that as the silver lining, that the programmers were all given a lot of extra time to put in the best code they could. they were all able to spend so much more time on the light shows, flesh out the rules more, and a little bit frustrating not being able to actually play with one another, which is how we normally, you know, me and Kiefer and Katz will stand around and play and, like, watch each other, watch the scoring, watch the display work and how that all works together, and then we can play off each other. You know, what if it did this? What if this patch had that ability? That way it wouldn't be overpowered. We could influence another aspect of the game in this way, and that's how we kind of play the game, playing together. So we were all remote. We each had a game in our homes, and I delivered most of them, several of them, to the programming team. You know, it was harder. You're not actually standing and playing next to your co-creators at that point. You're playing your game by yourself. Oh, hey, I think I found a bug, or I think this would be an interesting feature. Could we add it? Oh, yeah, let me think about that. Instead of just like a spur of the moment and creative, collaborative working. So they were able to add more code, but missing out on the in-person collab, I think, is why we're seeing interesting changes now that are happening with the newest version of code that's been coming out, like with the Power Chord edition. We've made Power Chord more interesting in a song, and it's just because, frankly, when Joe and Keith were playing in the office a couple weeks ago, they had this idea of what would make Power Chord more interesting to go after, and adding this multiplier effect for shooting duff, making that shot more interesting. And then all this comes from actually playing with other people of equal skill levels and noticing what we're all purposefully trying to shoot for and what we're kind of not paying attention to. So adding the power chord award is because, well, you know, nobody ever shoots the duff base ramp, and that's not a cheap aspect of the bill of material, thank you very much. We want to get some play out of that. So adding this multiplier effect to your power chord by shooting duff gives you a reason to go up there, makes it so you're not just blowing through your song stages. You can get a 10 million point power chord award if you're playing carefully and using your multiplier up there and dashing all six balls in the power chords. So a lot of that collab work really gets more fleshed out with in-person play and us banging ideas off of each other. So then on the topic of collaboration, I'm curious to know, you as the pinball designer, right? We always say this is Eric's game. What do you have control over and I guess what do you like to have control over when it comes to layout, rules, lighting, art, the package? Are you just, here's my layout or do you give guidance for everything else as well? Marty, I never let go of any aspect of my game. Like, literally every single detail. I am just like, I have my claws in it, and I refuse to. If you look at the plot bumpers, if you lift up the symbol, you'll actually see Eric's signature under each of them. A lot of people don't know that. I see my blood on a couple of games that are on the production line because I have something. No joke. So when it comes to all the things that you mentioned, layout is 100% me, toys and mechs. You know, I give my idea and my concept. I really want moving spotlights. And I talked to one of my mechanical engineers, Peter Dorn, who was responsible for designing that. I'm like, here's what I want it to do. And use two servo motors, make it move in the X, make it move in the Y. That's really all I got to go with, man. So here's kind of like my concept, and I'll program something on an Arduino, and I'll hook it up to two servo motors. I'm like, here's what I want it to do. Make that mass producible and go. And then with art, I was doing a lot of instruction and a lot of hand-holding with Dane, who's just a fantastic out-of-this-world illustrator, but he'd never done this style of project before. He's very used to doing full tableaus all at once, big posters where he draws everything at the same time. So getting him out of his comfort zone, getting him to do individual aspects of a play field, I mean, it was myself, more so it was JP, sorry, Jean-Paul DeWin, who was doing a lot of the guidance there, but every detail of where we want things placed, how we want them placed, what my concepts are for the rules for this aspect as to why I would want someone there, a lot of handling there. The lights, I mean, I'm the one who's responsible for putting every insert into the play field. The hot rails, I am the lead on the patent. Speaking of those inserts, did you run out of space when you did the map of the world and you forgot Canada? So, just asking for a friend, Having seen the band eight times, pretty sure five of them were in Canada. Just wondering, curious. I think I have two locations that are in Canada. I thought I did. There's some big Guns N' Roses lore. You know, everyone talks about the St. Louis riot. There was a big riot in Montreal, too, so I'm hoping for that. That was when they played with Metallica, right? Yes. Yeah, I remember that. I remember reading about it. It happened when I was like three. Going through how that map worked, I went through all the different locations. I put them all in an Excel doc. I uploaded that into a custom map point generator, took the whole thing, and I kind of just had to put out points in the middle or in the areas where I had groupings of the concerts they played in. And, you know, in the end, it comes down to bill of material, what you have. But I have 53 lights to represent the over 199 places they played. That was at the end of 2018. And they played more places and more places. So I tried to put dots in where every, in kind of the general area. You know, they play like nine different places in Germany. I'm like, well, I can only put like one dot in the middle of Germany to scale kind of everything. As far as the other aspect of the game, rules, I say what I want to see, but that's really probably the most collaborative part of the game, where Keith is literally the best person in the world who comes up with pinball rules. So I don't really try to rein him in. I don't really try to hold him back or tell him, well, this is what it needs to be. It's like, no, Keith knows what he's doing. Keith's rules are the reason that I got into pinball. I mean, playing Lord of the Rings, it's the first game I played, and I understood that pinball could be more than just keep the ball alive. And that's because of Keith. So we talk, and we have mutual respect for each other when it comes to what is going to make a game fun. So I think Keith words it as, Eric, you now understand enough to pay heed to what I say. So Keith is very good at what he does. So writing the call-outs, is that you? Is that Keith? Obviously, they're dependent on what the rules are going to be. You got the whole band there, which is pretty cool. Yeah. I wrote the script, the main script, like the first draft. I wrote it. And then we hired out a comedy writer from Second City who wrote some of the funny stuff. And, you know, it was okay. It was decent. But then it just constantly evolves. we get the band members, you know, what do you want to say? What would you say in this situation or how would you word this? So and then basically everyone else on the team, like, OK, what are your what are the rules that you're putting in? What do you need to have said? What are all the different aspects we could use? So generally, it's me doing the first rough script and getting together with everyone else, having them flesh it out and then getting the actual voice talent to ad lib and kind of just go with it during the recording session. Were you a part of those recording sessions? Every single one of them. Yep. With Melissa, she recorded on her personal mobile studio, and basically I was on Skype with her, and I think we have a video of that somewhere. We recorded the whole session in video as well because I know the correct emphasis to use when trying to relay a rule or relay something you want said, you know, like jackpot is lit, something like that. When you just read it, you're not familiar with pinball. She's like, so wait a minute, lit? Like, it's off the hook? It's off the chain? Like, yeah, it's lit? I'm like, no, don't say that. Please, for the love of God, never say that. Jackpot is lit. Like, it's something you're excited about instead of shooting. So for every line in there, I was directing, coaching them on how to say it and what the right emphasis is. And then same for Duff. I sent him the script, and he didn't. When he got to the studio, he's like, yeah, Eric, I had it printed off. I left it at home. So if you just want to read the line off for me first, then I'll repeat it back to you. And so we went through his script and there were 400 lines he said or 500 lines he said. I read it first. He read it back to me. And we started getting into this weird mood where nobody could stop laughing because I would get to the weird, like obscure shit or the adult only speech call outs. And I would start laughing because I'm in my head thinking, great, now I need to have Duff McKagan say, quit pounding your pud and plunge the effing ball. and so I would start laughing and then he would laugh because he's like, well, I know this next one's going to be good, Eric, because you can't keep it together. So, nice. It was a very fun recording session with him. And then for Slash, it was very much, you know, I got him on Skype and I was recording it with him and the first thing he said, because I jumped on, and I know he doesn't like doing it, so I got on, I'm like, all right, Slash, time for your favorite thing in the world. He's like, no, man, this is my least hate public speaking. I can't stand talking in front of people or talking into a microphone. If he could pull that top hat over his mouth, he would. He would. He absolutely would. I mean, he can play in front of a million people. He can play guitar. But you ask him to say something into a microphone, and he just clams up. He's so uncomfortable doing that. So I try to stay fast and loose with him. I'm like, come on, man, jackpot. You know when you're playing pinball, you love hearing that. And then it's Flash's voice of jackpot. Come on, man. Say it like you mean it. Jackpot. All right. Use the Melissa clip. We'll use that one. Melissa's got so much energy. She brought so much to the game as far as mood and excitement. You know, the other two guys were definitely more low-key and laid back, but it's, I mean, they are guns and roses. So, like, it's awesome to have them there. Melissa really brought the energy. So, Marty, hearing Eric talk about, you know, directing people and what to say, he must be absolutely ready and has produced a killer speech. Acceptance or not for the upcoming Twippies for possibly Game of the Year and who knows what. Eric, how was your speech? Don't give me any bullshit that you haven't prepared one because we already know all the nominees have been told, you know, you're up for this, this, and this, so you've got to get ready. Come on, Eric, spill the beans. I am awkward. I'm uncomfortable. I say what I can say. So who do you thank in an acceptance speech? Or do you just say, you know what? Honestly, you've seen my triceps. You've seen my calves. I did all the heavy lifting. I actually had to deliver the machines to each person. It was all me. Or do you actually thank some of the other peons at the workshop? I personally did not record anything except for the potential game of the year. I had the other members of the team who contributed most to their respective awards say their thank yous. That's very, very nice. It's no secret we saw last year's Twippies because of the pandemic, because it's virtual. It's not live. We all know that. So you have to kind of give people time to produce videos and speeches and all that so that they can put it together and it's going to be bang up. I imagine that was exciting, nervous, all those kind of things. It's always nice to be nominated, but you've heard the buzz for this game. We said it on Final Round. It's the game of the year. My acceptance video for game of the year, the way it was done, and I hope it gets played for many reasons, I think is the best way it could have been done, and I'd like to leave it at that. Okay. It's like a rock concert. He shows his boobs. That's what he does. So, I just want to go back, reflecting on when you started to now, right? So, you know, you were asked, or maybe you put your hand up, I can't remember what it was, to do your first game. You've now got, arguably, Game of the Year. Why you? Why did you have the ability to do this when you didn't necessarily have the ability to do this? How does that come about? I think a lot of it had to do with my inability to accept mediocrity. I refuse to take the easy path. I refuse to just say that's good enough, much to the chagrin of the people who manage at Jersey Jack Pinball. I just push and push and push, and I don't settle for the status quo. And I feel like I have such a big head when I say that, and that's not what I'm trying to do. I mean, there's established rules in pinball that you don't screw with, and I kind of just push back and ask why. Like what? Well, like messing with the apron. You know, like I got pushed back internally on putting that ball lock under the apron, and I just asked why. Like, there's playfield room under there. Let me put something in there. What difference does it make if it's within the bill of material and it physically works? Why shouldn't there be ball stuff happening underneath the apron? Well, that's never happened before. Okay. And? That's not a good enough reason. Right. Or no one's touched the wood rails on the side of a play field since, I don't know, Humpty Dumpty. So the wood rails have been there forever, and they stabilize the play field and stop it from warping front to back. And no one's ever messed with them. No one's ever done anything unique with them. And I wanted to do something cool. I could have just put in regular spinners. You know, those are designed and established pieces that, you know, here you go. You take them and you drop them in your game and it's done. But I said, what would it take to create some out of polycarbonate with some metal inside for counterweighting properly and light them up so we can change them all colors of the rainbow and make them more interesting. There's just established things that people have used in pinball for a while and I want to make them more interesting. But do you know this stuff's going to work, or do you... No, I don't know it's going to work. Well, that's what I'm trying to work out. Like, let's face it. New designer, right? You're now designing new machines. You're getting funky with aprons. A seasoned veteran. But do you have absolute confidence and certainty this is going to work, or is this trial and error, and if it doesn't work, so be it? I have the desire to make my idea work. And if it doesn't work the first time, I'm going to figure out something that does make it work. Like that lit-up spinner that you see on Guns N' Roses, I first made that in 2014. I had the working prototype on my desk as the electrical engineer when I was working on The Hobbit. I wired up an Arduino. I hooked it up to an RGB and an opto, and every time it spun, it would change colors. And I showed everyone. They're like, oh, that's really cool. That's awesome. Put the other spinner in. I'm like, I'm fine. But that adds to the bill of material, too. So, I mean, maybe that's a factor. It does. Initially, it does. But then when you take a step back and look a little deeper, you see that the swedged spinner with copper core costs X amount. And an acrylic insert molded piece around a steel wire with counterweight costs significantly less. But it takes the engineering time, right? You have to pay a mechanical engineer and an electrical engineer to come up with this stuff. So there's cost-benefit analysis that happens when you come up with new ideas that aren't the standard and has to not be crazy more expensive, but then you have to measure the intangible of cool factor. And I think that one really crossed the cool factor up a notch, so putting that in. But when I have something's a cool idea and then, you know, I'll build it and I'll bring in Keith and I'll bring in Joe and I'll bring in the other people who've been in pinball for a while and they see it. Oh, yeah, that is a cool idea. And then I'll bring in the people who haven't been in pinball all that long and show them and they're like, I don't get it, but it looks cool. All right. Interesting. I try to get different perspectives on, you know, just for the people that work in our company. You know, some of us are pinball nuts. other people are just good mechanical engineers or good electrical engineers who don't have a dozen games in their house and go to tournaments and enjoy going to shows and stuff like that. Getting everyone's input on what makes a new idea fun or not fun or worth doing is something that I push for. I always push for the collaboration, try to get buy-in from everybody. I remember the first time I saw your Pirates of the Caribbean, and being completely honest, the theme, I was like, eh, it didn't do anything for me. It wasn't like I'm against it by anything. It wasn't like a fan favorite for me. But that doesn't matter for any single game I play. I care about the game. I care about the shots. I care that there are plenty of shots. Pirates delivered big time with that. And I just was in awe. And it kind of broke my heart. And I really felt bad for you because I was dying to see this. And, of course, as we know, the three discs became one. And I was like, really? Who cares? That's not the game to me. Sure, it's unique and all that stuff. But everything else is the game. That's like 10th or 15th on my list of things I like about that game. So when that was part of the delay, I was like, oh, you know, of course, Pinside is Pinside. And they were bitching and complaining about whatever they want to bitch about. But really, it didn't change the game that much at all. Yeah. I know it's a sore spot, but as we look back, that game is a huge collector's item right now. I don't know if it'll ever be made again. I don't know with Johnny Depp status if that can be done. I don't know where the license stands. But that game was a winner. Yes, I agree. And it's ridiculous how much they're going for right now. I mean, confirmed sales for $30,000 for the collector's edition. Make it again! I mean, you're preaching to the choir here. I definitely want to make the game again. That's me personally. That's not as a member of the Jersey Jack team who actually gets to make those decisions. That is me personally. Yeah, but they're listening to this podcast, and they're hearing heavyweights like Marty and I say make it again. So there's going to be a meeting Monday morning, right, Marty? Right. Do you think there's ever a chance? Like, we're not saying commit to us and tell us your secrets from Jersey Jack, but people say it's never going to be made again. Some people are holding out. Is it somewhere in between? It's somewhere in between. I mean, there's no reason that we entered contract negotiations to do that, to see if it's possible, to see if, you know, Jay Depp, who's getting publicly canceled, if he would still be allowable on the game. Like, none of that has gone through at all. It's somewhere in between. I mean, the game was expensive to build. There's a lot of parts on it, and there's a lot of expense to making it. When it comes to man hours to build a game, that one took more than I think any other game we've ever made. When you look at the cost to build and the cost to buy for the build material, it's all significantly higher than something like Guns N' Roses, for example. And when we're backlogged several thousand Guns N' Roses, and then, you know, there's another game in the pipeline and another game after that in the pipeline. You think about things like, well, is the cost worth it? And where would we even squeeze it on the line if we could? So nothing's off the table. But it's also like people say, you know, keep making it. You'll sell a lot of them. Well, how many would you sell? That's what people really don't know. I mean, there's obviously a lot of desire, but is it thousands or is it 200? and you've got to get everything back on the line, you've got to get all the parts, that's really what you're saying is, is it actually worth going to the trouble to do that or just keep building Guns N' Roses because you've sold shitloads? Right. And something else to think about, I mean, right now, the way our factory is designed and built, it's built around standard body games. So all of our rotisseries, all of our cabinet holders, all of our packing material, Everything's built around standard edition games. They're standard with games. So there'd be a lot of infrastructure change as well to go back to wide bodies. It's just something else that probably most people don't think about. But like the rotisserie to hold a narrow body game is not the same as the rotisserie to hold a wide body game. All of those would have to be modified or changed. So that kind of indicates to me Uh oh That potentially we not seeing a wide body for the next two machines Just put it out there Marty put two and two together Well done Marty Snap. Holy shit, Marty. You've cracked the code. I'm just saying what everybody listening to this podcast is thinking. No, no, it was all you, Marty. Thank you. Very insightful, Marty. Well, then, would you want to do another wide body? And I say this because of this. I am not a fan of modern wide bodies. I'm actually a fan of solid state wide bodies. I think they kind of work because they're floaty. I've not been a fan of super pins. I've obviously got other wide bodies and I like them. There's something about Pirates where, and I know a lot of people have said this, is that it is a wide body that shoots as good as a standard body. So you've obviously cracked that code. You could do it again, surely. Well, I'm sure I could. Eric doesn't take no for an answer. Of course you could. Right, right. I mean, if the way I look at it, and it's not off the table at JJP, if a license in my initial eureka moment says, well, I got to make this a wide body, then I'll make it a wide body, and I'll fight tooth and nail to make it a wide body, and I'll make the justification as to why. The problem is you don't get a higher bill of material just because you want to make it a wide body. And when you've got, you know, 14% more square footage of your playfield to fill up, I mean, you've got to stretch your dollars. Use those cheaper spinners. Well, right, yeah. Use my new spinners and use other parts that are, you know, be creative about it. What can you do to make the game cost lower but still fill up that wide-body playfield layout? But what do you think is going to be the trigger for you to say, this has got to be a wide body versus standard? Or is it just an unknown until the moment happens? Right. It's an unknown. If, you know, when I'm presented with a potential license, it is what sort of fireworks go off in my head. And then over the next couple of days, I'm sketching and doodling on potential licenses. Like, well, it really needs to have this. It really needs to have that. It really needs to go like this. You know, when we were initially looking at Wonka, I sketched out a play field, just back of the napkin sketch, that made it a wide body, just because of what I had in mind for it. Now, if I was never a candidate to even do the game, and no one asked me to, it's just like, well, if we're going to make a Wonka game, here's what I would see in it. And that shouldn't be taken at all as a slight toward Pat or what he does. It's just like, in my head, this is what Wonka was. It had a shrunken playfield, you know, like Family Guy. That was the Mike TV area. Right as that was happening, I think, is when Munsters came out with their mini playfield. And I'm like, oh, well, that would have been embarrassing if that came out at the same time. Okay, yeah, about the Family Guy, the Munsters, the mini playfield things, there's only so many different things you can do on a playfield, right? Spinners, bumpers, you have the spinning record on Guns N' Roses. There's a spinning disc on Doctor Strange on Avengers. I mean, there's only so many things you can do, but they're unique. It's where they are. It's how they're used, how the code relates to it. Do you get bothered when you see things like that? To me, as a player, it doesn't bother me at all. When I saw Avengers for the first time, I couldn't stop laughing because not at all as a slight on the game in any way, shape, or form. It shouldn't come out that way. Because Keith and I had the exact same idea to use this part that hadn't been seen in a long time, and we both did it on games that came out the same, like, I don't know, three months. We both put the Spinnig disc in from Toten with a single post and in pretty much the same distance from the flippers. It was just, I thought it was hilarious that we both had the same thought. Well, then there's also another comparison people talked about, and this is the light show on Guns N' Roses versus Led Zeppelin. Obviously tried to recreate that concert footage. I'm not necessarily wanting to talk about the comparisons there because they are quite different. Did you know that the light show in Guns N' Roses was going to be as amazing as it came out? When I first made the prototype Hot Rails, and it was me personally in our machine shop. I'm the guy who makes, I personally try to make every single part on my whitewood. When I took one-inch acrylic stock and milled it with a very special, very expensive bit that I bought to prototype the Hot Rails, put them onto a game and stuck an LED strip in them and programmed it, the look that I saw come over Joe Katz's face when he saw that for the first time. I just knew he was going to make that thing do things that had never been seen in pinball before. And I was so excited. Did I expect it to be what our programming team turned it into? I mean, that was my hopes and dreams, and those guys just absolutely nailed it. I mean, I couldn't think of what they could possibly do to make the light show any better on those games. And then the way Duncan Brown has gone through and, like, modified the shaker motor to make it just feel better in the game, synchronization with the moving lights, the way that these guys just utilized everything that was on the play field to make that show feel immersive. It's just, it's fantastic. They did awesome. Well, when we had Keith Johnson on the show, he said really the thing that surprised them was how much time they had to spend coding the light show. And it really does show it. And that's what you're saying. It's not just the Hot Rails. It's how it's integrated with all the inserts and the moving lights and the GI. It really is remarkable. Yes, and that is the silver lining of COVID. Those guys got so much extra time to make these light shows really shine and really polish them that I'm happy they were given the extra time. There are moments in pinball history, and I know you've been in pinball all your life. Your dad was an operator. So you've seen major changes in evolution of pinball, from EMs to solid states, to solid states to alphanumeric numbers, to going to DMDs, to what Jersey Jack did, and really changed things once Wizard of Oz came and we saw that big screen. This is the next big change. Guns N' Roses is the game that went, okay, that's the new standard. It is. I'm not asking, this isn't even a question. I'm telling you, this is the new standard. And it's a pretty high bar to set. I know you're working on game three. You said, you know, there's another one in the pipeline that I assume is Lawler's, and then here comes Eric's next game, game three. You set the bar. I'm sure, with all confidence, your next game's going to be fantastic. But can you top this one? Absolutely. Listen to that guy. Without a doubt, if there was a mic, you'd drop it. Fuck, boom! I mean, yeah. I love Guns N' Roses for the way it is as the concert experience. Is it the ultimate pinball machine? There's always just so much more you can do, so much you can do differently. Will I make another rock and roll game that tops Guns N' Roses? That's a high bar to set. But can I make another pinball machine that's on the same level or above it? Absolutely. Is it because you have so many ideas and you can only put so much in a pinball machine, so some of these ideas go in your back pocket, like when you first made that Spinner for Hobbit? Okay, I'll come back to that one later. There must be more of these ideas. You don't have to reveal them, but I assume that's what the case is, and we might see those in game three. Absolutely. So the feedback that you've had for Guns N' Roses, I mean, obviously it's been positive, but are the things that are people calling out that are special what you expected them to be when you were playing? And the example I'll give to you is when I first played it, I was just blown away by the light show, and I was actually blown away by the fact that I liked more Guns N' Roses songs than I thought I did. But then when you came onto my stream a couple of weeks ago, I mentioned to you the thing that was really surprising to me was the spinner shot just to the left of the middle scoop, which the first time around, I sort of didn't pay attention to it. But then when I just started ripping that shot, it was just a real surprise to me how much I love that shot. So I'm just trying to work out the things that people calling out that they like about it, the same things that you thought people would like about it? Or was there something that surprised you? The spinner shot was probably my favorite shot on the game, too. And Guns N' Roses went through a lot of iterations, just like any pinball machine. But tweaking that shot from where it used to go, which is where the upper play field dropped, those both used to go into a subway system, by the way, to tweaking it to shoot into the pop bumpers. And then on the one out of 50 times that you shoot it into there, it shoots straight through the pop bumpers. I mean, that was purely coincidental when I first laid it out. I wanted to shoot into the pops and just barely catch one of them so that it's just bounce around. Sometimes with a lucky bounce, you can shoot all the way up through the pops, kind of like Deadpool's snake shot or the katana ramp shot, where it catches a rail and goes and bounces up to another rail. GNR will do that, and it became a very satisfying shot. The big surprise to me playing the game was watching all the streams and saying, that's a lot of lights, that's going to look cool. And I've only played the standard, which I think only has 200, and it's just crazy. I was impressed by just the standard, and there's obviously a lot more. Streams don't do it justice. I agree. Seeing a light show in person versus on stream with a blown-out camera or even a camera that's really, really good, like Carl's, it doesn't quite convey the light show. It's something to watch Carl on IE Pinball, and he's obsessed with Guns N' Roses, and it's great to watch him try to blow it up and just see how deep that game is. I've got one more thing for you, Eric. Two games under your belt, possible Twippy for Game of the Year. I'm sure you're going to win a few for this. Game number three is upcoming, but let's just talk about this game. You got the license for Guns N' Roses. How old are you? I am 33 years old. Just turned 33, so Appetite for Destruction came out in 1987. You weren't even born. Marty was 33 when that came out. I just think that's amazing that you and Slash have connected and put together this awesome game that is probably going to be in production for quite some time. I don't know how to describe it other than surreal. I mean, Slash, you take a step back, and, like, now I consider him a friend. You know, I can call him up, and he'll answer his phone, and he'll text me back immediately whenever I shoot him a text just shooting the shit. But taking a step back, like, he is one of the most prolific musicians the world has ever seen. And I got to pinch myself thinking about that. This is one of the dudes who's defined music in the past 30 years. It's crazy that I've connected with him on building a machine. And he just wants to be part of it. And it was just so cool. Absolutely. Completely unexpected. But he is so into pinball. and, like, he absolutely wants to come and just, like, hang out at pinball shows and play pinball. But he's like, Eric, you know, I'm going to get mobbed if I go to those things. And I'm like, yeah, probably. Yeah. But it's still cool. Like, bring Kimo with and people won't fuck with you. Kimo's his 6'8 Samoan bodyguard, by the way. He came by our office the first time Slash came to visit. You're not going to mess with Slash when Kimo's around. There have been some legends that have come out of this, the Slash collaboration. One of them I've heard is that apparently Slash is now calling up his band friends saying, hey guys, you should really get your own pinball machine because look at what we've done. Is there any truth to that? There is absolutely truth to that. Absolutely. We've been reached out to by several potential licensors who want us to do machines with them or hang out with them, talk with them in some way, shape, or form. And it's, yeah, again, like, really? I'm getting a call from you right now? This is incredible. He's handing out your phone number to these people? Basically, yeah. Good gig if you can get it. Now, you're right, Slash is an extremely underrated guitar, and it's cool that you can call him a friend. I don't want to name drop by any means, but Marty and I have also connected with some underrated music legends like we have on Speed Dial the Puppet Pals. but that's, I mean, whatever. Slash Papa Fowl, same thing. The point is that it's great that you've made this game, it's great you've made that connection, and I can hardly wait to see what you do next, although I'm really enjoying this one. Right on. I appreciate it. Speaking of musicians, Ed Robertson has a GNRCE, and when he's not giving me shit for one reason or another, he seems to be very much enjoying his game. And that was gratifying to hear when he first started texting me and sending me pictures and calling me about his game and how different little nuances on why is it doing this or what does it do that. He has been delightful to talk to because he has appreciated the game in a way that he's a pinball nut, also obviously a musician. Is he? He appreciates the music in a way that most people who aren't musicians don't, or at least don't realize that they appreciate it that way. I went the extra mile on making the sound effects work well in the game and making the music fit. You know, all the sound effects when you hit targets or ramps or whatever in every song are all done in the right key signature, at the right tempo. Nothing sounds discordant. just because of what I wanted to hear and my musical background and having at my disposal the ability to use Duff McKagan and Slash and Richard Fortis to actually make recordings for us for the game. And so, like, when Ed was reaching out and talking about the way the music works and how it sounds and how it does what it should, you know, it was very rewarding to hear from someone who makes their living doing music, appreciating the music of this game. He's also not somebody that just likes pinball for the sake of pinball. If he doesn't like a machine, he doesn't like it. And so if he does like it, again, that's a good compliment because he's not somebody that just buys everything new because it's a pinball bag. Right. Yeah, he's definitely not one to blow a smoke up my ass. He's let me know the things that he thinks I should have done better. What a dick. I say that, Eric, because this is today, the day we're recording this, he sends me these texts. He knows my number one fear in the world, and I'll say it right now. I have never stepped foot on frozen water. So here in Canada, skated on a pond or anything like that, I've never done it. It's my biggest phobia in the world. He lives up north in his cottage or whatever and sends me videos of him walking on it, jumping in holes in it, and now because the weather's getting warmer, it's cracking as he's walking it, and he's sending me these videos, and my heart is dropping every time he does that. So, Ed's a bit of a shit disturber, but a great guy. Mm-hmm. Don't take his guff. Nah, I give it as good as I get. Good. Eric, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Best of luck at the Twippies. Not that you need it. But as you say goodbye, is there any piece of information, any dirt, anything exclusive here on Final Round that nobody knows about the making of Guns N' Roses? So, just for you guys on Final Round, The first time I got on Skype with Duff McKagan, I was pretty chill about it. We were talking, and I was screen sharing, and I was going over the play field with Duff and showing him all this cool stuff and what we were doing, what we were planning. And, you know, something happened where I, like, closed the window. I'm like, ah, whoopsie-daisy. Let me get that back open. And Duff McKagan looks at me through the camera. He's like, Eric, did you just say whoopsie-daisy? Yeah, no shit. And I'm just like, ah, fuck. And then the next thing that gets said is by Duff. He's like, Eric, I remember the whoopsie-daisy phase. How old are your kids? Oh, he knew. And I'm like, they're two and five. It's like, I remember the whoopsie-daisy phase very well, Eric. Good luck, man. And it just, it really let me connect with Duff in a way I wasn't expecting. Another guy who's just down to earth, chill, enjoyed being a dad. He still enjoys being a dad, but his kids are older now. They're in their early 20s. And he's a great writer. He loves sports. I mean, I'm a big Duff fan, actually. Yeah, he's a very cool guy. I read one of his autobiographies while I was doing this project, like right before I was going to call him and finish the story. So I was like getting in touch with the way he thinks, but the way he's just like, how old are your kids? I remember the whoopsie-daisy phase. like that was very touching nice Eric thank you very much have a wonderful week I'm sure you will and best to you and everyone at Jersey Jack thanks guys appreciate it so there you go Eric from Jersey Jack what did we learn Jeff one word veteran when it comes to making pinball machines you have to call him a veteran now two for two and the sky's the limit for that guy very very excited to see what's next from him certainly enjoy what I've seen so far but I mean he's got his eye on the prize he knows what he wants and he demands it I really respect that yeah absolutely agree a lot of passion in what he does just absolute forthright got to get this done got to be great whatever it takes I like that attitude it was interesting him talking about the different timelines too about what had happened with COVID without COVID at TPF and what's happened since then the ability to update code. Time, I guess, was really on his side in one way. Yeah, absolutely. Can't wait to say what's next. It was difficult to figure out the time of this interview because here in Canada, we had daylight saving time. Eric did too. You don't yet. Not yet. It's weird that, you know, in some states, some provinces, they don't have it at all. Some countries are different times. It's confusing, especially when you and I have to do shows like this where we have to coordinate different parts of the world and time zones. I was lost. I'm really confused right now because I can't work out whether we're recording an hour earlier than we used to or whether it's an hour later. This is absolute genuine. If you want to confuse the fuck out of me, start talking about time. Time, I have ever... Look, I remember as a kid, I was the last person in my class to work out how to read time from a clock. That is fact. And to these days, if you ask me when daylight savings came in or came out, did your clock go forward or backwards? I don't know. It really is something that I absolutely struggle with. Not anymore. It's time for our sponsor of the week. Is daylight savings time confusing you? Do you spring forward? Do you fall back? Is it this state or country? Who knows for sure? Never adjust your clock again. It's the new Dwight Sullivan wristwatch. This elegant timepiece comes with 70 LED lights that never turn off. You can also set alarms and reminders to help you get through your day. And how does that work? Let's ask the creator himself. Hi, I'm Dwight Sullivan. You'll love this timepiece. It's really easy to program. First, you'll choose your time zone. But keep in mind, some offer better bonuses for late night activity or early risers. But we'll come back to that later. Once you've chosen your preferred time, lock it in by hitting the center button eight times. Do it fast or you'll miss the lock mode. Now for alarms. You'll want to decide whether you want to get up right away or use the snooze button. You can earn more snooze buttons by reaching target goals that you earn by just... Okay, okay, okay. I think we get the picture. Get the Dwight Sullivan watch today, just like I did. Nice. Hey, Jeff, what time is it? Why, it's almost midnight. Oh, shit! Marty, this is a bit of a treat. You remember a few months ago we did the reach-arounds. It seems so long ago. I've pretty much forgotten it. Well, look at your bank account. You'll be reminded really quickly. One of those fine, fine donators. I mean listeners. I mean fans. Whatever you want to call them. Award winners. Thank you. I knew there was a proper term for it. Hails from the great state of Georgia. He was one of the winners of the give-it-a-try reach-around. We had three. You heard us talk about Craig Bobby and also Rob Frost, but we didn't get to mention the third person, and he's joining us right now. He gets to be first. Let's say hi to Jeff S. Hi, Jeff. Hey, folks. Glad to be here today. Thanks. Glad to have you here, but what's your story? What's your connection to pinball? Who cares? He's got a wallet. No, my claim to pinball is I've been around for so long that I don't have to go to the history books to learn about pinball because I've lived it. So we're assuming 90s. You're in your 80s, 90s? Okay, gotcha. Yep, yep. Actually, 80s. No, I started in the 80s when I was a young lad. And then by the time I got to the 2000s, I decided I'd like to buy a pinball machine of my own. And then that's when I really got into the hobby. And, you know, the rest is history. I was referring to the age of the 80s or 90s, not the actual decade. But that's fine. We're starting to learn a little bit about you, Jeff. And, again, it's great to have you on this program. We appreciate that you listen. And have we crossed paths before, you and I? No, I've stayed very far away from you. I know the feeling very well. Marty's in Australia. You can't get further away. Yeah. It's what's stopping me from coming back. I mean, people say it's COVID. No, no, no, no. I just didn't want to come and see Jeff again. Well, he's got two Jeffs. Stereo Jeff, Marty. So you better be on your best behavior because, you know, Jeff and I share that same common name. So even though he stays away, there is some sort of kindred spirit between us. That's what we need, another Jeff in pinball podcasting. There's so many of them. But you also go to tournaments. Is that correct? Sure. I went to, I think starting back in the early 2000s when Papa was one of the two big tournaments. I entered one year because I wanted to see how I would come out in the rankings. And so in order to become a ranked player, you had to sign up and you could sign up there at the Papa tournament. And then you had to, back in those days, you had different divisions, A, B, C, D, E, and F. But if you wanted to be ranked, you had to be in category A, I think it was. That was all the top people. So I signed up in A just to kind of see how I would do. And at the end of the tournament, I had a pretty good tournament. And at the end of the day, I signed up my ranking. I was about 35. That's great. Pretty happy. Yeah, 3,500 out of 10,000. Hey, you know what? Since that point in time, Papa has grown. And, you know, now they have, I don't know, over 100,000, 200,000 members. It's about 80. I've seen my number grow. I think I'm over 15,000 the last time I checked. So I'm on my way. You've done well. I love that. I've seen my number grow. That sounds positive, but it's growing down the way, isn't it? Well, Jeff, with COVID and IFPA being shut down right now, once things get going again, will you play in leagues? Will you play in tournaments? Will you jump right back in? Oh, sure. We have a couple of local tournament spots. My parents' basement is a pretty good one and Portal Pinball. And so they have weekly tournaments, so I like to go there and just kind of rub elbows with everybody and see what the latest games are. I'm dying to get to Brian's place at Portal. I will definitely do that in the next, if not next year, the year after for sure. So I have to get down to Georgia and check that out. But I know they used to have the big Southern Fried Gaming Expo, correct? Correct, yes. And it was in June. Could you pick a hotter month for Georgia? Yeah. June, July, August, and September. They're all pretty good. I guess you're screwed. I mean, why do it during the summer if you don't want it to be too warm? That's all right. I kind of like that it's in the summer, too, because then I can check out a Braves game. I like going to different baseball parks. But, I mean, Marty knows what that's like with the winters. Our winters are his summers there, so he's just coming out of his summer. Did it get pretty hot there, Marty? No, not really this year. It does. Where I am, we have, well, for Australia, we have extreme weather. So in Melbourne, it gets very cold and it gets very hot. But both of them are getting very mild. Overwarming, you know, whatever. So I'm kind of curious, Marty, how's the vaccination process going in the country? It depends on who you speak to. If you speak to someone that knows nothing about it, it's probably going really well. But there's been botched up rollouts. There's been short supply. We got it late. So really, it's been quite poor. But we don't have any active cases, really. So it's not like we desperately need it. I had this big, long conversation with somebody because, effectively, those countries that were really irresponsible are the ones that actually get the vaccine because they need it. Whereas we, you know what I mean? We went into lockdown, hard lockdown for so long, that we don't get the vaccine like everybody else. Which is, it's fair. People are dying. They should get the vaccination that we get at last. It hasn't been great, but it's not really all that needed. No one's dying here. Yeah, there's a pecking order for sure. I know in Canada, I probably will be fully vaccinated by September. I might get my first peck by June, maybe. But here in Canada, you know, it's the seniors first. And then the people that are obviously actually take that back. It's the health care workers first and then essential workers, seniors, things like that. So I'm pretty low on the list. Same for Australia, too, especially where there's not many COVID cases. So I think Marty's third on the pecking list. It goes koalas, kangaroos. Then I think Marty. What about you, Jeff? Because in the States, you know, as bad as COVID's been, they are really one of the leading countries as far as getting vaccinated. Yeah, I think I read maybe 18% of the population is about how much has received their vaccines so far. It seems kind of slow to me. I'm in sort of the situation that you guys were describing. I'm in like group three, and they just opened it up now almost fully to group three. But anyway, there's shortages of vaccines, and it's hard to get an appointment set up. There is one secret, though. I'll say that if you live in the state of Georgia. The secret is they set up a state system called MyVaccineGeorgia.com. And if you go and register through them and do everything through them, it'll go through smooth as anything. But if you try anything else, good luck. Because I've seen the system works, but not everybody really knows about the system. I was talking with Ron Howlett on Slam Tilt Podcast. I was watching him do one of his streams, and we were talking about vaccines and how easy it is to get it in the States versus Canada because we just actually don't have that many vaccines. And, you know, he's not going to get his for a while because he's a very healthy young man. And they were talking about if you're overweight, and we started figuring it out. And I thought, oh, I would have been vaccinated by now. This is the one good thing about being chubby. But I think I will wait just like everyone else. But anyway, so as you know, Jeff, we like to do on this program kind of a Well, I'm talking to Marty for the first time in a couple weeks. I like to know what's going on. When you, the listener, are hearing us talk about our last two weeks, do you A, give a shit, or B, fast forward until we start talking about pinball? I'll usually let it keep rolling. I'll go fix a drink or I'll hit the restroom and then come back. Usually times out pretty well. Okay. So basically, Marty, this next segment is like when you go to a rock concert and they say, hey, we got a new song, and you go and get a beer. That's basically what this thing is. Here's a track from our new album. Oh, God. I'll go get the beers. What do you want? I got it. So, Jeff, what have you been up to the last couple of weeks? Well, let's see. I guess the last couple of weeks. I'm going to get a beer. I'll be right back. I'll join you. The last couple of weeks, I've been playing quite a bit of Rick and Morty. I happen to have that, and I've been getting a lot of the code updates. Really enjoying that game. And then also, I'm lucky enough, I have already gotten my LE Guns and Roses. So I've been enjoying that also. So slumming it. Yes, slumming it. You know, the big thing is half my time I run back and forth to the computer, and I have to download the newest software each one of them like every day there a new there a new version released released practically Especially like on the Rick and Morty there a testing development team, and so bugs come out. But a new version of the software comes out every couple of days. Do you have your Guns N' Roses set to automatically download the code? No, no. I don't have it in a permanent spot yet, so I hadn't really worried about the Wi-Fi in the new scorebit system that they have. I'm just doing everything, you know, manually. So here's a question for you and also for the other, the Jeff, and all the Jeffs out there, if you will. So we talked about Guns N' Roses on the show saying how amazing it is, and I'm still finding more and more people coming out saying, I just don't get it. I don't like it. I don't get it. What do you say to those people that don't really like Guns N' Roses, don't get it? Well, I think it's fine if they don't like it. You don't need but 5% of the people to like it and be interested in buying it. But it's a very challenging game. And if someone doesn't like it, I'd say, I'd ask them, did they play it in a home environment? And if they did play it in a home environment, I'd find out specifically what they didn't like. But, you know, there's so many different elements to it. You know, just between the rules and the lighting, the strategy. You want to see certain things. You want to set personal goals. or trying to get to certain record levels. I don't know, it's very enjoyable. You know, that's the other thing is if the theme doesn't interest someone, they probably won't be held by playing it. So it just so happens that I like the theme. And the game, as it turns out, I think, at the end of the day, I'd say it probably is the best game. Is Jeff S. Dunn talking about his last two weeks? Yeah, just finished up, yep. Oh, yeah. Okay, perfect. I'm sure it was great. I heard it all. I'm just kidding. I'm very jealous. You've got two awesome games in Rick and Morty and Guns and Roses. I haven't played Rick and Morty yet, but not to jump into my two weeks, Marty and Jeff S. I did talk to the coder of Rick and Morty this week because one of the things I did was install my first ever color DMD. So that, if you recall, Eric Priebke, who works for Spooky now, did a lot with color DMD. So my friend and I were installing it, kind of got to a stalemate. I'm like, what am I missing here? I'll just call up Eric on Facebook Messenger, and he video walked me through it, and it was a piece of cake, and it is gorgeous. What machine did you put it on? Simpsons Pinball Party, because I figure that's never leaving here. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, Bruce Nightingale. I bought it off of him. It was such a good game, and he knows, obviously, how great it is. But to throw that color DMD, which is perfect for a game like that that is a cartoon. So I bought the LCD version, and I didn't do the dots because, again, and it's a cartoon, oh, I'm so impressed. I think Color D&D is a great mod for machine, and I think some machines really do benefit from it, particularly if some of the animations are a little bit muddy when it's just orange. I don't think I've seen it on a Simpsons pinball party, but the games where they convert sort of, you know, video footage into the game, a lot of the old Sterns do that, but Game of Thrones, for me, I think is probably one of the best games where it really needs the color DMD for you to actually see what's going on. I've got it on my Star Trek, obviously, which is fantastic. I think it's an essential bit of tit for your pinball. Jeff, they say it's like buying your first pinball machine. You buy your first color DMD, and you go, oh, I can't look at the other ones. I've got to buy more. So I haven't got that bug yet, but I've been told, look out. Exactly. That's one of a couple of barbs that you might run into. The same adage goes to if you get a nice Invisiglass or PDI non-glare glass on one of your machines, and you see how nice it looks, and before long, you have to do it on all of them. You've got those, don't you, Marty? I'm sure you had it on your Jurassic Park. Yeah, well, Jurassic Park came with it, but I did so in Australia. So Lucas Barden here, who runs the Baseball Pinball Club, he sort of started importing his own glass and calls it Vampire Glass, and I bought them off him because exactly that. Also for streaming, like you really do need PDI or Invisiglass for streaming so you don't get any of the reflections. So yeah, I've got them on all my machines as well. Essential. I only have it on my Led Zeppelin LE, and yeah, you definitely can notice the difference. I don't know what the cost is of those, but it came with it. You're right, Jeff. It is one of those things. To make your game look better, and whether streaming or not, you definitely notice it, and I think it's a good investment. What about you, Marty? Last two weeks, what's been going on? Well, since last episode, I sold my house. I thought you did last episode, though. Or was it the auction? It was the auction. So it was a week before, because remember you kept asking me all these questions about the auction? I'm like, this is all a bit personal for the world to know all about my situation. But anyway, we sold. I thought it was going to be really stressful. It just wasn't. It was just a process. Sold to some really, really nice people. The man of the couple, the family, he was a massive pinball fan. So the fact that I had my Wizard of Oz there was a good talking point. And he's got machines at his work. He was, you know, just talking about all the games that he loves. And I went, okay, my house is going to a good person. I'm happy about that. Well, that's nice. And you got rid of your other machines because you didn't want people to see them. It was too much clutter. You could have got more money if you had more machines in there. That is probably true. I don't know. It would have turned a lot of people off. But speaking of that, I've actually now sold My Lord of the Rings. It's gone. What? I didn't know you were selling it. It was interesting. I kind of, I don't know. It was with Ryan C. So I just brought it to his place. And he just reached out to me and said, hey, I've got a guy that's interested. Do you want to sell it? And I went, yeah, sure, if you can get a good price. But don't forget, it has got all these issues with it. A laundry list of problems. And Ryan said, yeah, I'll fix it. I went, if you can. You sold a lemon. No, I didn't because, remember, my ability to fix machines is incredibly limited. I know that's going to be a real shocker. No one's ever heard that before. So for someone like Ryan who tinkers with machines and repairs them, I think it took a while, but every issue he fixed. so someone's got a machine and a cracker of a price too. So I'm very happy with that. But now I'm only left with two machines. But I'm sure you'll buy more. Jeff asks, do you fix machines? No, I do not fix machines, but they break a lot. So I'll usually have someone come over and work on them. Have you tried to repair machines? Yeah, I mean, I can do all the stuff like adding physical things like mods and screwing and unscrewing things and adding protectors and all that. but I just don't really do any soldering. So usually I get it up to that point. I just get somebody over to notice what they're doing. I mean, this is the interesting thing about pinball machines. We may have mentioned this before, Jeff, in that these machines do break and it's a consumer product. So if something goes wrong that's minor, that's okay. We can usually go in and fix it. But if there's something major like a playfield and the warranty says, okay, we're going to send you a replacement playfield, the majority of people really wouldn't know what to do in that situation. Are you teeing me up or something? I have a feeling. No, no, I'm not. I was actually having this conversation really last night because someone I know had a monster bash that the play field had lifting and chipping and I think it also just had almost like ribbing all over the clear. The clear was not smooth at all. so the fix was they gave a populated play field as a replacement. Now, populated play field, that's fine. That's like, okay, well, at least all the components are in there but still a person needs to be able to take everything out, all the wires out, put one in and reattach the wires and that's still not an easy thing to do. I wouldn't be able to do that. I'm about to find out. Why is that? That's why I said, are you teeing up? Do you know what I'm about to talk about or no? I don't even know if we've mentioned this. I know what you're about to talk about, but that's not what I was referring to. But do go. All right. I'll let everyone in because there is a positive at the end of the story. Jeff asked if I bought a Led Zeppelin LE, my dream theme. I hadn't heard about that. Tell us. Yeah. I've been hearing it every month. Well, I had to replace repetitive stories with something I'm not allowed to talk about. So Led Zeppelin is my new thing. That'll be next year's reach around. But unfortunately, and I don't know whether it's COVID, don't know what the reasoning is, unfortunately, sadly, the game didn't work. The playfield, sadly, was quite warped. I took pictures, took videos, sent it to our distributor. They sent it to Stern. They saw that. It was quite warped. The electric magic spinner, as I believe is the case on unfortunately most premiums in LEs, was defective. So what happens with mine, the first time I would rip it, it would work a few times, and then it would seize up. So the spinner was so tight in that bracket, I once hit the spinner and it bounced off it like a stand-up, meaning it didn't spin. It just was like hitting a wall. Okay, so I read some pin side stuff. I try to move the bracket, move the wire. It's now spinning, but it's spinning and it never rests perpendicular to the play field. In fact, it rests parallel, so the ball scoots right under it. That's unfortunate, but CERN has acknowledged that they're working on a fix. I've actually been chatting back and forth with Steve Ritchie about it. So that's a bit of an issue. I know how the game works. There's combo. Like, it's a fun, fun game. I'm in love with the code. I'm in love with the game. You do a bunch of combos, then you hit Icarus once you've completed the four symbols, and that gives you a playfield multiplier based on how much you've done leading up to that point. Well, Icarus wasn't working, and I sent somebody a note and said, how many times do I have to hit this? And they said once, and I showed them a video of me hitting it five times in a row with the glass on. I would just cradle up, hit it, cradle, catch it, cradle, hit, and it didn't go. The person said, well, there might be something wrong with that. So go under the play field, do a check the switch, do a switch test. Ryan Seas actually tried to help me. Got a multimeter out to make sure there was voltage and everything. It's obviously something wrong in the node board, if that's what it's called. I don't know, but my friend said, probably. That sounds technical. So unfortunately, there's that. And the good story of all this, the reason I'm only bringing this up, is because I have a wonderful distributor, and Stern backs up their products. They're looking after their customers and populated playfields on its way. So I was quite bummed, as you can imagine. But you go through the process. Stern does their investigations. The distributor backs up the customer. And you know what? I'm happy. And by May, I'm sure I'll be getting a new one. And I'm quite excited because it's a fun game. but I was pretty bummed because all those things you described earlier, I can't fix, nor do I want to. So, yeah, do I have to remove a populated play field? Yes. Looking under, it's three wires, kind of three plugs. You pull out, you lift up, you put in, pop it in, and it should be fine. So, fingers crossed in May I'll let you know how that goes. If that were me, I would have rang up soon and said, look, I've just received my Led Zeppelin LE, and I've got a major problem. I turn the machine on, and these really, really shitty songs keep playing in my machine. So I need to take it back, and you need to replace it with some decent music if you could. Jeff S. From Georgia. Please tell me you're a Zeppelin fan. Oh, I love Zeppelin. So Marty, go fuck yourself. Marty, beat it. Oh, God. This episode is over. I'm canceling. We don't need you. Jeff and I, welcome to Final Round with Jeff and Jeff. I do agree with Jeff. It seems like putting the new play field, populated play field in, it's going to be a piece of cake since you got the old one out. And, you know, I think that would be a great fit. Yeah, I mean, a few people noticed the issues that I had on the game that played here and saw it on video. And I noticed it right off the bat. And I thought, oh, maybe it's just me. Maybe it's not level. So, unfortunately, it's a bit of a turtle shell. And I know this isn't a representative of Stern Quality Control. This is just, unfortunately, a bad play field. Shit happens. I get it. And it doesn't matter. The fact they're looking after it is, again, I can't be more thankful for that. Because had they not, had the distributor just kind of brushed it off, guess who's out of pinball? This guy. Yeah. Seriously. No, I get that. I would have been done. I would have been like, fuck this. But that was never even an option. that was never close. I'm saying publicly, thank you for backing up your products, both the distributor, PlayerOne, and also Stern. Phew! Well, I'm actually really pleased for you then that this hasn't really soured the experience, because I know for a lot of people that even that just with the replacement playfield has been a little bit sour, because when you buy a new inbox, it's a big deal. And that was your first new inbox, right? And... No, first LE. Oh, first... Oh, that's right. But it's your dream theme. It's this pinball machine that you've waited for for a long time. That could really sour the whole experience and just put an ongoing bummer on it. But you're just like, no, done. They're replacing it. I'm happy. Let's move on. I like that. But not everybody can come to terms with it so easily. I don't know if this is a public invite on the podcast. I would love to hear people from any pinball company, any pinball company. We will gladly bring them on this show. Talk about something that we haven't heard a lot about on podcasts, but talk about quality control. I only know what I see on little tours that I go on. I've been to the Stern Tour. I don't know if you have, Jeff. Marty, I think you have. I have, yeah. I was really impressed when you went through all the different parts. And it was Zach Sharp, in fact, who took me around and explained to my wife and I about how the quality control works, how they test different parts. And there are, what, 3,000, maybe more, parts in a pinball machine? So they have to test not every single one. If they're ordering 100,000 screws or this and that, they test a good percentage of them. And it's quite a high standard of being able to meet their standards to go into a pinball machine. So I've always felt comfortable. And the way I look at it is, look at how many games CERN makes a year. I mean, look at the back order they're on right now. They all can't be perfect. Okay. So hopefully this isn't the case for a lot of them, but unfortunately it was for mine. And, C'est la vie, I really do think COVID has to be some sort of factor in this. Don't you? Maybe. But I also think that, like you said, I did the CERN tour that Zach Sharp took me around. I also did the Jersey Jack factory tour. Jack himself took me around. And it was really that moment when I really got to see everything that goes into it. And it is so intricate that I don't know whether... I think I had therefore a tolerance of things going wrong because you've got to see how many things could go wrong. And a quality assurance person, because that's really what people sort of say. They're like, well, how can this get out the door? How could quality assurance not pick it up? And I think it's because there's so many parts that go into it that they could test it and everything could work absolutely perfect. You then ship that thing, and we're talking trucks, We're talking ships when it comes to Australia, or even planes, where there's a lot of high pressure, there's a lot of movement. Little wires can, you know, come apart, and things can break in transit. So there's only so much they can do. I'm not trying to give them a lead pass or make an excuse for them. I just had this appreciation of what could possibly go wrong. So when it does go wrong, I don't try to blame them or get personal. Let's just fix this thing and move forward. Right. What do you think of Jeff? Yeah, I'm in total agreement. I think that, you know, they've got a good program going, quality program. You know, Jersey Jack recently had one or two people had some problems and evidently they have a new policy. If the thing that they're talking about is covered, what they do is offer you your money back. You know, you can ship it back to them. They give you your money back. OK. Or, you know, they might offer you like a unpopulated play field or something like that. But I think that was the old program. So the new program is, hey, you don't like it, send it back. Yeah. Zach was talking about that, not on this week's pinball show, but the one last week with Dennis Creasel about sending it back. And I don't know the ins and outs of this, but if you send it back, you can buy another one, but you send that one back. The only problem is, I believe the price has gone up, so you'd actually be paying $1,000 more. That's not too cool. I get it. And we just talked to Eric how much the costs have gone up. I get that, that anybody new should be paying that based on the bill of materials. But I do have a little bit of a problem that if you paid a certain price, you should be getting the product. But I don't know that to be true. So, again, it's just what you read on Pinside. Again, that's why I think, Marty, it would be neat to talk to somebody with some sort of quality control in any pinball company and what their standards are. I think a lot of people would like to know that because all we're really hearing is people saying, this happened to my machine, this happened to mine, and this is what they did. What are the companies saying? Yeah. I would gladly talk to somebody about that particular subject. And really, the angst from people comes from, okay, you know I've talked about the two things that make us angry when our standards aren't being met or when there's an injustice. And I think this is the standards conversation. My standard, if my machine is broken, the only thing that's going to make me happy is if you replace my machine in its entirety. And when a company says, well, no, actually, our policy is to give you either an unpopulated play field or a populated play field, and someone says, well, that won't do because that is not my standard. And the echo chamber that we then see on forums and in social media is people saying, the company are being deceitful. They're not being open about their policy because it hasn't met their standards. But the company is still fixing the machine well within their rights, I think. Well, I was going to only add one other thing is when you do have the discussion and you have the representatives on and they're talking about, you know, what their policy is or what their process is, it's also good to have available or have them show you what the warranty is. Because the warranties are very specific. They're like, we don't cover anything. Good luck. You know, they only cover one or two things for a couple of days. So, you know, it's a great thing for the representative to come on and say, hey, we got this policy. Yeah, we only let the good play fields go out, blah, blah, blah. And then you look at the policy and it's like, well, yeah, play fields, if it's printed and it's out of register, that's not a problem. If there's bubbles, we don't care. There's just a correlation between the outward public policy and then, you know, also what they're doing in-house. I know when I buy a car, I know what kind of warranties I have. I know what kind of extended warranties I can buy, and I know what kind of coverage I have. I wonder if we're going to get to that point with pinball machines. You buy it, you sign off on this, this, this, this, and it's this many days the warranty will cover. It does or it doesn't cover shipping, all those kind of things, because I think it's getting to that point. We're seeing it with a few companies where we're reading on Pinside and we're hearing different podcasts, and we've seen even some streams show some areas of concern. So, again, boy, that would make a great podcast, whether it's our show or anybody else, just to really open up about what they see and what's important to them and what kind of quality assurances customers can have. Because I'm lucky. I guess I'm unlucky it shipped this way. I'm lucky that the company is standing behind their product. But it could have easily turned ugly, and it never even got close to that. So thank God for that. So there you go. That's the last two weeks. That is a long freaking beer to go get, Jeff. Mine's already out I can't say the word out Because it sounds Canadian I'll tell you what else happened in the last two weeks as well, Jeff What? We had another Heads Up Championship We did the Stern Heads Up Pinball Invitational Won by Anna Neal of Hot Nudge And it was very exciting to watch I'm in love with those Heads Up challenges You might have heard Anna recently on Pinball Profile It was exciting to watch because In that situation you have eight players All excellent pinball players roll the dice, anybody could win because one missed shot might make the difference. And that's kind of what the case was for Anna to advance it and win it all and win herself a brand new Avengers Infinity Quest Stern Machine. Marty, what did you think of the event? Okay, so what I loved about it is that they're trying to make this even more accessible to anybody, not just the pinheads that get it. What I really noticed this time in particular, how they are taking the reality TV format and using that for pinball with the cutaways. You know, as somebody's playing, it cuts away to some of the players going, oh, I hope I get a jackpot. Oh, it's getting close. And oh, I hope I beat this person, which was kind of, it was kind of cool. And I think as an outsider watching this for the first time, I think that would be just acceptable and great. For me, it's kind of like, well, hang on, you're playing in this tournament and you're talking about this, it would have been recorded after. So surely you know the outcome. So it just seemed a little bit weird for me. But I thought production quality was great. I thought the commentators were great. There was a lot of chemistry there. I will say for me, the real star of this was Emoto. It's always Emoto. I know it is. But I just felt her presence, her persona, how she was kind of like the anchor linking the gameplay to the commentators throwing over and back. For me, I just felt she was the star of the show. She was for me, too. The production that she does behind the scenes in everything that she does is just top-notch quality. I've been fortunate enough to work with her a few times. I mean, they've got a good one there in Stern and what she does for Marco as well. So, again, lots of fun if you haven't seen it. But it brings us up to another heads-up type event, the next Pin Clash. I know, Jeff, you didn't see it, but you've heard a lot about it, haven't you? I have. I've been listening to a lot of the results, and it sounds like it's pretty neat. It's pretty cool. It's the best we can do during COVID, during this pandemic, since we don't have live play. And I've got to tell you, you talk about great production. My goodness, what Carl does. I kind of like the Pinclash format a little bit better. I know the price isn't as big as a new pinball machine, but it's more accessible to people because anybody that's capable of streaming can do it if you have that machine. So you had a lot more participants, and I always like the bigger fields. Yeah, I think also with Pinclash, the real difference here is that Pinclash is live. So everything that you see as far as video quality goes and transitions, and obviously the interviews were done recorded previously, but they're inserted in real time. So it is a live production versus something that I believe was recorded in like January and then put together. They're both great quality heads up broadcasts just with different flavors. But I think that Carl really did raise the bar and create this new standard. And it's just really good that we're seeing this continued with the Stern Invitational as well as this. because for years we've always been trying to say, how can you get more people into pinball via a visual medium? And these things is what's going on. So now you have two different heads-up events. If you're lucky enough to be in the top eight or part of Jody Dankberg's Rolodex, I guess, you might get into this turn. Heads-up pinball invitational, but pin class, yeah, that's coming soon, so it'll be a chance for anybody to participate. But did you know, Jeff and Marty, that the IFPA is not the only cat in town? There is the new United Federation of Competitive Pinball. Have you heard of this? No. This sounds like something for Canadians only. Quite the opposite. I believe it was created in Virginia, maybe? Look at UFCP. So, again, United Federation of Competitive Pinball. UFCPonline.com. There is a new measurement, new ranking system for competitive pinball, and it's on now. Okay. What are you trying to tell me about this? Hey, listen. If there's one thing this show is, it's about competitive pinball. So I think it's important that we know that there's another form of competitive pinball established in 2021. It's legit. I'm sure it is. And I'm looking at the website now, which is ufcponline.com. My question is, and I know this is going to probably sound a bit facetious, but I'm not trying to be, but why do we need an alternative to IFPA? What is the difference? My quick answer is people are just sick of Jacques Sharp's bullshit. I assume that's just laughing, so he's feeling the same thing too. But perhaps it's because the pandemic has frozen the IFPA. This is maybe a jump start because there are a lot of competitions going on right now. So just to let you know, it originally was established in Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and D.C. So I was kind of right when I said Virginia. And they've been running these tournaments. There's a lot of similarities to the IFPA, but they've got a point system. They've got ranking systems. They're taking a dollar. Okay. Well, to be fair, I'm sure you're aware of the Vipers that are now available in Australia. Are you aware of the Vipers? I've never heard of Vipers. No, no one has. So instead of Whoppers, we've got Voppers, effectively. But someone decided to call them Vipers. And really it is the same format as the IFPA, but just for Victoria. So Melbourne. And this is Ryan C. Ryan C. came up with this and said, well, you know, in Australia, we are able to play competitively because we're open. But there's no point system. So let's just do a point system for 2021 just until IFPA comes back. So I guess we've done that here so I can understand why other people are doing it. But I just wasn't sure whether this was a COVID response, let's get this up and running before IFPA, or whether they're actually trying to form a splinter group, an alternative to IFPA. Because people have threatened that for years. is how dare anybody question the integrity of the IFPA and Josh Sharp? How dare they? Well, Josh has actually been quite open and said, here's the formula. Go ahead, fill your boots. So I'm curious to hear his response to that. We're coming up to April 1st. I have some strange feeling, as he does every year on April 1st, there'll be some sort of message. I wonder if it'll be related to this or who knows what. But I guess if I was in a tournament in, let's say, Maryland, There's a great tournament called Pin Baltimore. If I'm there and they've got the UFCP and the IFA going on at the same time, I'm probably bucking up for both, I guess. I don't know. It depends what you play competitive pinball for. I mean, it's going to be the same tournament, same results, I guess. What do you play it for? Do you play it for the win? Do you play it for the money? What I know is that Queensland, so probably Queensland in Australia, the best place in the world according to Dr. John, They were pretty much more open than most states in Australia. They really didn't get hit with the COVID virus that much. So they've really been able to be open having tournaments for a long time. They started doing tournaments without points whatsoever. And I'm not sure whether it's just because it was COVID and therefore people just wanted to get out. But from my understanding, from what I've heard from people that are organizing it and people that are playing it, they've actually said they're getting bigger numbers than they ever had, and people are enjoying it a lot more because there aren't points. It seems odd to me. I can't conceptually see how this could be structured with the intent of letting you build up points just like the IFPA, because each tournament that you would enter is going to be one organization or the other. and all the people that are in the IFPA, the majority of them, they're going to want to play tournament. They're not going to want to lose the points. So they're like, well, if it comes down to having to choose, maybe they always go with the IFPA. But maybe, as you're alluding to, Jeff, if there's multiple tournaments at different times, then, hey, maybe it's just more tournaments and one more source of competitive play I haven seen on the website if you playing in an IFPA tournament if it can also be UFCP sanctioned Who knows I mean maybe they are because they two different ranking systems but we'll have to find out more about this. But they're getting a little bit of a following. There's a lot of competitive pinball going on, whether it's the Vipers or whatever you call them in Victoria. Think of what Fox Cities is doing in Wisconsin. We've seen them stream. Raymond Davidson has been to a few tournaments. Tom Graff on TPN for Fox Cities, he does a lot of streaming. What Eric and the group there do, I mean, it's every weekend. And then I think of Kim Martinez in level one in Ohio. There are tournaments happening right now, and safety protocols are in place. People are wearing masks, all that kind of good stuff. But they're happening without the points now. But I just have a strange feeling once the IFPA kicks in, they're going to grow immensely. I can hardly wait to get back into a tournament. Okay. Yeah. Not bothered. Keep an eye on it. For me personally, I want to put on the Melbourne Silver Bowl Championship. For me, because there's so much months of planning, and it's a big event, and it's such a great experience, I want to be able to do that again. That really did kick me in the guts last year that I wasn't able to put it on. So for me, as soon as I know that it's up and running, yeah, I would love to be able to do that. If IFPA isn't open by the end of the year, we don't really know. It depends on how the vaccine goes. I will probably come under the Vipers, so people will get those points. If it's open, there's the FPA. But as I said, for me, tournament pinball now is trying to put on a big event once a year, possibly twice a year. You're in October, correct? Well, we did October, the last one, because that was the timing that Jersey Jack could come out to Australia, because it's part of the Flip Out Expo as well. But we do aim for end of November, beginning of December. Okay. My point is, if IFP starts July 1st, more likely August 1st, yeah, you'll be up and running. You'll probably have an event here in 2021. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Well, speaking of formats for tournaments, for me, the one thing that kind of interests me, I don't even know the name of it, what do you call the online group you belong to, you can join up and belong to? ICR, it's called. Yes, for the tournaments. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So for me, who doesn't play a lot of tournaments, I like being able to go places that quickly set up a nice tournament in ICR, and that's perfect for me. That element, ICR-run tournaments, are probably more appealing to me than the larger ones that Marty's talking about. The mega shows, they're fun and all, but it's different. It's maybe a little bit less competitive at the local scene. That would make sense, I think. And yeah, certainly more controlled. There's something for everybody in pinball, whether you're looking for the show, whether you're looking for the big tournaments, whether you're looking for just casual leagues. That's the great thing. And again, we see so many people coming into pinball for the first time that just get the bug. And I think that's why we do these podcasts. That's why you listen, Jeff. As we end out March, pretty interesting that there hasn't been one new release. I think Stern pretty much has done the last few marches, but do you think, Jeff and Marty, maybe this is the case of there have been so many back orders that the production lines are already full? Why release a new game and have even more back orders? I think certainly that's what's going on, but at the same time, there's nothing really sacred about March. I mean, if it slides to April or May, to me, there's a little bit of flexibility in how they're doing their business. But otherwise, yeah, hopefully we're trying to get more of the backlog worked out because that's ridiculous. People haven't been like this in 10 years where you had to order a game and then six months, nine months, a year down the road that you'd receive it. We're so used to instant gratification, or we know that Stern is going to be doing a second run. It's going to start up in a couple of months. Don't worry about it. But, yeah, so many games are backordered. It's quite a new environment for the customer. So when did Avengers get released? September, October, I think. Yeah, we still haven't received our premiums here in Australia. So that's a good point. I have a friend that ordered Turtles Pro, and because of the backorder, and again, think of when that came out. That's like heavy pandemic. That's when everything was really shut down last summer, okay? So they were really backordered. Well, then Avengers came out, and then Guns N' Roses came out. He still hadn't had his Turtles. So now you talk about that instant gratification, Jeff. He had an opportunity to flip the Turtles into a different machine and did because it was, I can get this now. So I think the back orders are something that they need to get ahead of. You want the lines always moving. I get that. But the back orders are very discouraging as well. And you're right. We haven't seen this in a long time. Well, and it also, that contributes to, that's one of the reasons why a number of these titles on the market, especially the hot titles, you know, have been selling, notice it a lot more. but they've been selling for way over their list price. Like almost the day they show up, they get shipped out. They're shipping out this week. All right, they're shipped out. Then you go look at the prices, the classified, and they've jumped $3,000 in one night. But a lot of this is, I guess that always happens, but a lot of it more seems to be going on just because of the fact there's an availability problem. You want a Jurassic Park premium? Okay, that's worth $8,000. I'll buy it for $8,000. Well, sorry, I have one, but if you want it, you're going to have to either wait a year for Stern or, you know, mine's going to be $10,000. Yeah, plastic supply demand. Or if you want to buy Marty's old Jurassic Park, I think it was $18,000. I could be wrong. You joke, but it wasn't far off. But honestly, it wasn't far off. And wait till you see Marty's new house, Jeff. Oh, it's going to be something. My pinball collection has funded my new mansion. I've taken advantage of those prices. So when do we expect a new reveal? Are we talking April, May, June, July? Well, think of the companies. We talked to Eric. We know that it won't be Jersey Jack anytime soon. Maybe this year, but that production line is extremely busy with Guns N' Roses right now, so nothing new is going on that for any foreseeable future. Stern, also some back orders. We hear from different distributors that give us the information of what's on the line, but, I mean, the game can be on the line for a week. The number of games that they produce in a day, you know, depends on how many they need. Who knows? I mean, to release a new game, you have to produce a lot of games. That's really going to shut that line down for at least a few weeks, because you don't want to create another backorder. Where's the window to do that? So to answer your question, my guess for Stern, without knowing anything, is probably not April. May? June, maybe? Yeah, as reporters on the news, that's disappointing because obviously we want to talk about a new machine. But overall, for the pinball community, that's fantastic because I've heard, like I think Guns N' Roses, the limited edition was limited to 5,000, I believe. 5,000 limited editions, and I believe if they haven't sold out, they've gone close. That is a crap load of machines to get out the door. Yeah, in fact, you mentioned, having spoken with Eric earlier today, I would have loved to have seen him answer a couple questions about maybe some of JJP's strategy. It's thinking about how they might transition off of Guns N' Roses. and are they really planning on having a second line? Is that something that they're talking about? Do they have space for it or is it another location? Is that a goal for them to try to do? I'd like to find out because it seems like they need to have at least two lines going. So in their old factory that I said I did the tour, they did have two lines, but they had the main line and then they had the short run line. They've gone to new premises, which I believe is much bigger. So what I don't know really is do they have two lines plus the short run or do they have enough room for three lines? We don't really know, I guess. No idea. Can't answer that. But I'm sure when we post this episode, somebody from Jersey Jack will pipe up. We'll find out for sure. So log on to our social media. Marty, where can people find us? On Facebook, if you look up Final Round Pinball. If you go to Instagram, it's Final Round Pinball Podcast. We are at Final Round Pin on Twitter. But of course you can always email us at finalrampinball at gmail.com. Always had a few emails. None of them have been good, let's be honest. But we should probably acknowledge them. Yeah, let's do that. I'm going to enjoy this segment, I think. I'm going to shut up. And Jeff, you can fill in for me here. I'm just going to try to keep my mouth shut during these emails. Go ahead, Marty. Get your fill in. Go ahead. Okay. So this is from John. He says, Sorry, Jeff. Marty is correct. You say a boot. But it's not as nearly as phonetically exaggerated as many of your fellow Canadians. It's mild to moderate for sure. Not a severe butchering of the word, but as a yank, I can only hear a boot. Cheers. Thanks, John. The next one is... You want me to acknowledge that? That's fine. No, it's fact. Here's what I would like you to do, Marty. Not just for me, but for my fellow countrymen. I know I do the editing on this show, but you know how to edit, and you do a lot too, actually. Let's not short sell what you do. I want you to take clips of me saying it so I can hear it back. Will you do that at some point? Yeah, of course. Absolutely. Yeah. We also had another email from Nicholas. Hi, Nick. I know Nick. He says, yes, he says a boot. That's pretty much it. So thanks, Nick. It's true. You do. You just wouldn't hear it. There were so many things that I would say that are very Aussie that I wouldn't think twice about because it's just what I do. That's true. That's true. We have Jeff from Georgia. Jeff doesn't have an accent at all. Correct. I was lying. He really does. What are you talking about? Funny. We also had another email from Tiffany Hall, but I don't think we'll read that one out. Well, we don't know who it was directed to. I'll let Jeff in on this, okay? You tell me if we should react to this email. This is the email that was sent to us. It's from Tiffany Hall. Hey, I know way more about you than you think. I'm a computer scientist, internet security specialist with an affiliation with the Anonymous Group. A few months ago, you downloaded an application, and that application had a special code implanted purposely. So I know your sexual preferences. I know you're interested in blah, blah, blah. I have secured four video files clearly showing how you masturbate yourself to certain people. Anyway, you must find a special address using Bitcoin. Otherwise, I'm going to send those files to your family members, friends, your work buddies. We'd send you the Bitcoin monies. You didn't say whether it was Marty or me. We don't know. We don't know who's doing this stuff. Go fuck yourself, Tiffany Hall. It's hilarious. is. So, I would turn this matter over to your attorney, Pennside PD. Pennside PD. Just let him handle it. Maybe, actually, it was directed to him. Let's really be honest. It would be more likely to be Pennside PD. So, we got a... It's funny because it's a really detailed... You probably get spam and all that kind of crap. This is... I don't know if they call it phishing or whatever they call it, but it's ransomware. It's sexploitation You have only four days and better act fast $5,000 US dollars is a fair price for my silence, don't you think? Look, if I'm going to be guilty of something Let me at least see the videos before I pay $5,000, alright? Come on Don't even think about going to the police If you try, I will immediately know it And I will send them your masturbation videos, pedo Wow. We've got some great fans. So, you know, we've got Jeff S., who's kindly donating to reach-arounds, and we've got Tiffany claiming she's seen a few reach-arounds. I don't know about this. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it was Jeff S. that sent her our videos. He's trying to get some money back. He's trying to get some money back. Jeff? Admit it. I got to get my $75 back. Whoa. Anyway, thanks, Tiffany. Oh, we missed the four-day deadline. Shit, I guess you're going to be seeing a bunch of videos else come up soon. That's a little bit like the movie plot of I Know What You Did Last Summer. Okay, just send them the note. I know what you did last summer. Okay, and then let them stew on it a little bit. And then make them demands. Jeff, let me just tell you something about Marty and I. We are more likely to kill somebody in a car than we are to have masturbation videos out there, all right? So that would have been more reliable. Yeah. Like, don't accuse us of something that's really specific that we would never do. Keep it open. If you really want the money so we can talk to each other and go, oh, shit, remember that with the goat, you know? Maybe she's talking about that. Anyway. I'm pretty sure the goat said yes. Anyway. Of course, that's just a horrible scream from the pinball show. Anyway, our last little bit. And Jeff, I can't thank you enough for supporting the show and for joining us, too. It's really been nice to get to know you. This is the fun part of the show when we really require a lot from our listeners. And we've got you on now, so we'll get your kind of take on it. We asked our listeners to come up with games they thought were overrated. The only rule was it can't be currently in production. and we put together a bracket, 64 different games, and we had some results. Marty's going to give you some of those results, and I want your thoughts on this, Jeff, what you think is overrated. Is it overrated? Is it overpriced? What do you think? But go ahead, Marty. Okay, so because it's 64 games, we really couldn't find a proper bracket that would do 64 games unless we paid for it, and you know what? Those recent rounds only go so far. So we've done it in two groups, and the first one is the first 32 games, and I'm going to talk about the results of round one. So the first pairing was Medieval Madness versus Thunderbirds. Again, Thunderbirds is a bit controversial because people are like, well, it's not overrated. The person that put in the nomination said, even as the lowest rated game, it is still overrated. So Medieval Madness is considered more overrated. Would you agree? No, no. You think Thunderbirds is more overrated? I do. Okay. Have you played it? I have. Yeah. It's not good, is it? No. What's not good? International Rescue, right? What's not good is if you get International Resque and then you can't get the UE and your ball drains. Yes. It's a snooze fest. Yeah. Getting 14 ramps and missing the last two, yeah, that's a real fuck you. Yeah. And that's probably still its best feature. We then had Monster Bash versus Woe Nearly Big Juicy Melons, and Monster Bash is considered more overrated. Definitely, yes. Are you not a fan, Jeff? No, that's one of the games that I just do not understand how that's in the top five. You know, I mean, I like it. I just think it's just a little overrated. Maybe it belongs down there towards 15 or 20. I know you can stack modes in games that were earlier, like Adam's Family, But for me, Monster Bash was the first game I really paid attention to. Okay, I want to start a few things, like maybe Werewolf or the creature, before I start Frankenstein Multiball to get a few things going at once. So that was the big wow factor for me for Monster Bash. But I do hear a lot of people talk about that being overrated, so interesting. Next? Next is Jersey Jack Pirates of the Caribbean versus South Park. And Pirates of the Caribbean is considered more overrated. I can see that. I don't agree, but I can see it. I would guess based on the price because there are so few available. That's exactly it. There are so few available. If you look at the total number of ratings that Pirates has and then you compare that against any other title, it's a little slim on the number of people that rated it. It's probably very few people that have seen it. I also think with South Park, I mean, its current pin side ranking is 240. So it's certainly not over ranked. So I think Pirates currently sitting at four. I think people would say it's probably not it in a bit. So, yeah, I get that. Next was Attack from Mars versus Spirit, and Spirit was considered more overrated. Sure. That's good. Yeah, I get that. I mean, Attack from Mars is worthy of all its accolades, so I probably get that. Next one, we've got Twilight Zone versus Harlem Globetrotters, and Twilight Zone is considered more overrated. I can see it. A lot of people don't like Wide Body. Yeah, I'm good with that selection too. I think our listeners voted that one correctly. I think Harlem can never be called overrated. Underrated at best. I think it was in our underrated battle. Yeah, I think it won one of them, didn't it? We had a few. We do have a few. We should really know the history of our show, but we don't. We have no idea. So the next one was Rob Zombie versus Lord of the Rings, and Rob Zombie is considered more overrated. Yes, yes, I agree with that. I guess so. You don't think so? Oh, you sold it now, so you can say what you want about Lord of the Rings. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just think, yeah, when you look at Lord of the Rings, I mean, it goes for good money, I can assure you. It goes for good money. Oh, my God. Like four extra bedrooms. Yeah. That's what it's funding. I just still think that Rob Zombie gets unnecessary hate towards it. I think it's actually a better game than people give it. And, you know, it's 159, so it's not necessarily over-ranked. Anyway. I'll tell you about this entire 64 bracket. There's no clear-cut winner. When we look at some of our other brackets, most underrated, you had a good idea what would be top four. No clue here. Yeah, none. Like, Thunderbird's lost. They can't even win a shittiest pinball machine. Thunderbirds was in it. Like, this is unpredictable. So, yeah. Anyway. So the next one was Deadpool versus TX Sector. And this one was probably a clear victory with TX Sector getting 78% of the votes. So. Do you play TX Sector, Jeff? I do. Yep. I'd say 78%. That sounds good. Yeah, I think it's also because Deadpool's a good game, so it's not necessarily considered overrated, maybe. Right. Yeah, and I think when we talked about TX Factor, I think I even nominated it. I said, it's a great game. It sounds awesome. Ugly as shit, Backglass. But it's really just two shots. If you're doing anything other than the spinners, forget about it. Next matchup was Kingpin versus Metallica. Kingpin was a clear winner as being more overrated than Metallica. Correct. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, okay. Indiana Jones, the Pinball Adventure versus Paragon. Indiana Jones was considered more overrated. Absolutely concur for me. Yep, that sounds good. Yeah, it was close. I mean, it was 53% of the vote to 47, so that was a pretty close match, which is fair enough. And I think that's because a lot of people don't really get Paragon and the hype that it gets, I'd say. Next one, Adam's Family versus Black Knight. Adam's Family was the key winner. I would agree with that, only because Black Knight is just way too low. Yeah. Low on the rankings, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's about 150, and I think it belongs in 75 or so. Yeah, okay. So, to me, it seems way under-ranked, which means the other one's going to be over-valued. Next was Bride of Pimbot versus Star Trek. This was a clear winner, which I was very pleased with. 75% of the vote went to Bride of Pimbot. Which Star Trek was it? It was Stern, Star Trek. Oh, okay. Wow, somebody said that was overrated? Yep. No. Yep, that's good. Yeah, I mean, it is currently ranked at 16, so that's doing well. I think that's one of these games that's had a bit of a renaissance in the last couple of years. People have realized, probably because I've talked about it so much, that it is a good game. Hey, Jeff, did you hear the way he said renaissance? I heard that, yes. Renaissance, that's how it's pronounced. Really? Yeah. He's a renaissance man. Correct. I'm not a renaissance man, because that's just stupid. Say this word, Marty. S-C-H-E-D-U-L-E. Schedule. What's funny about that? Seriously, I speak English, so I don't know what language you are speaking. How would you pronounce schedule? Are you going to say schedule? Jeff, I'll let you say it first. Yes, I'm in America, so schedule. It's schedule. No, it's not. Nope. Okay, where did you go get your education? From the University of English. No, no, no. Where did you get your education? What was the building? What is that institution called? It's called a classroom or a chassroom. Did you go to shul? Okay, so what you're saying to me is that the spelling of the word should always be consistent, regardless of what country you're in. I think three letters that are all consonants, yes, absolutely. Two letters, it's not enough. There's too many variations. Three letters, all consonants, no vowels to interrupt there, it's sk, not sh. Yeah. You made the C silent. It doesn't work. It's not schedule. But it actually is. So it's from the English language, which is from England, and they say schedule. So what are you trying to say? All right Jeff Don't try and gang up on me Get your numbers This is a geological question How do you pronounce this as the name of a moving body of water? Okay You spell it T-H-A-M-E-S River Okay, so it's the Thames You say it's the Thames, okay Jeffrey, what do you say? The Thames I grew up in London, Ontario, which is obviously named after London, England. We had a Thames River as well. Thames. Okay. Yep. That's good. All right. We passed that test. Okay. Fantastic. Hey, Jeff, I know you spell Jeff with a J. What do you think of those people with a G, the Geoffs? Something about those people. I don't know. Exactly. In fact, I think a lot of them grew up over in England, you know? We're talking about, and so Marty probably thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong. with spelling it with a G. In fact, you probably think that's how you're supposed to spell it. To be fair, yes. In Australia, it is spelled more often with a G-E-O-F-F than a J. So, we're closer to England, English language. Move it on. Yeah, we know what kind of people were thrown to Australia, okay? So, you can keep the G off, all right? I'm changing your name, by the way. I'm not calling you Marty or Martin anymore. Martine, what's the next on our... I'm going to call you both Jeff. Okay, Martin, what's next on the list? So, we've got ACDC versus Safecracker, and Safecracker was an easy win in this particular one. Over us, I'd say. What's really good is that that joke is still so fresh. I can see that. ACDC is good. Yeah, it is. And Safecracker, people would just say it's a novelty game. I actually really quite like Safecracker, I do too. I really like it a lot. Yeah. I would like Safecracker more if it was a consistent three-ball game as opposed to you might only get one ball. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. But I think also because of the fact that it's so small and it's really hard to play, I think you would probably get more time on it being timed than a three-ball game anyway. Could be, yeah. That might make sense. So the next pairing was Star Trek Next Generation versus Quicksilver. This was really quite close. Who do you think was considered more overrated? Quicksilver. Yeah, true. 52% to 48%. So I think that's possibly the closest we've had. Yeah, I think both of those games are really overrated, so I didn't care which one. I think Quicksilver sort of gets a bad rap just because of the price. It's really not worth it. Yeah, I agree. Hey, I was just thinking, That Tiffany Hill pain in the ass, she probably saw us playing Quicksilver and saw the backlash. And that's, we were playing Quicksilver. Yeah. It's not our fault that there's penises all over it. Yes. That's what it was. So, home stretch now. Spider-Man, Stern versus Family Guy. This was a clear win to Family Guy. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Although, I will ask, okay, why does everybody hate that over Playfield so much? To me, what's nice about it is, well, it is a small ball. So you've got a single small ball, and you're keeping that going at the same time. You can play upper and lower play field at the same time. If you drain the ball, the top play field has a timer. If you drain it, you can relight it. It gets the multi-ball going again. So it's very challenging from a dexterity point of view. But people hate the fucking upper play field. I actually quite like the Apple Playfield. For me, the thing I don't like is I don't like the beer can in the middle because I just think it blocks the playfield. And I know that's probably intentional. I just find the rest of the layout really awkward. It doesn't feel good. And it's a pat-law thing for me. Jeff, I like that little playfield. I don't mind the beer can either. I guess I'd prefer it not be there. I think Family Guy is a great game. So that one, I can't say anything bad about it. Fun, amazing call-outs. and yeah, I'm good with that game. Well, yeah, 72% of the people say that it is overrated, so well done. Three to the next round. The next was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Data East versus The Beatles, and Turtles got through. Who made the Turtles game? Data East. Not Data East. Jeff, did you hear that? Oh my gosh, yeah. He said Datter. Datter. I didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. Yeah. I didn't say Data. I said Data. You said Datter. Data. There's an R on the end. Data East. You said Data East. Yeah. It's data. I'll give you the data over data. I'm fine with that. But there's no R on the end of it. I'm pretty sure it's Data Reist. Where's the R? Data Reist? It's silent. All right. It's silent. It's also invisible. It's not even there. Anyway, so Turtles versus the Beattles. Turtles was overrated, yeah. Yeah, Turtles was overrated. Even though it's Data Reese, that game hasn't aged well. So, the big, is it Lebowski or Lebowski, Jeff? Well, Jeff Bridges spells his name with the J, too, so the dudes are in my books. Lebowski. Okay. Versus Houdini, arguably best call-outs in pinball, the big Lebowski was a clear winner here as being overrated. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I agree. So, there you go. There's the end of round one of the first battle. Any surprises? Any shockers? To me, the one thing that sounds shocking or that was shocking is the fact there was nothing that was shocking. It was all kind of smooth sailing. It wasn't any big upsets. I have no idea who will win it, but it really depends on you to vote. And again, where you can vote is on our Facebook group. The link is there. You can only vote once, and new brackets show up every two days. So come back and make sure you fill it out. We've got great response so far. And, of course, that's on Facebook. You can also follow us on Twitter, which is FinalRoundPin. We're on Instagram, FinalRoundPinball. And you can email us like Tiffany. Actually, don't email us like Tiffany, but do email us. FinalRoundPinball at gmail.com. Keep your videos to yourself. Thank you very much. Thanks, Jeff. It's been a pleasure to talk to you, and I appreciate you spending time with Marty and I. Yeah, I enjoyed it, fellas. That was fun. Fantastic. Good to meet you, mate. We will do this again in two weeks. And another special guest, thanks to Eric for joining us, and good luck this week. I know a lot of people will be watching. My name is Jeff Teolas. My name is Martin Robbins. Thanks, everybody, for listening. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 026229a2-3b00-4ebd-83a2-45686f8098b4*