# Ep 49: Hurry **Source:** Final Round Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2022-01-07 **Duration:** 122m 8s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.finalroundpinball.com/final-round-pinball-podcast-ep-49-hurry/ --- ## Analysis Stephen Bowden joins Final Round Pinball Podcast to discuss his recent move from San Antonio to Chicago and transition from Deep Root Pinball to American Pinball, where he now holds a multi-disciplinary role in game testing, sales, marketing, and creative development. The hosts and Stephen discuss tournament logistics, volunteer management, game reliability, and scheduling as critical factors for successful events, with emphasis on player experience beyond just tournament rules. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Stephen Bowden has relocated from San Antonio to the Chicago area and transitioned to American Pinball — _Stephen states directly: 'I am a suburban Chicagoan... I am no longer in San Antonio... transitioning to American Pinball has been an experience'_ - [HIGH] Deep Root Pinball's Raza prototype was only played by approximately 50 people at a West Green Coffee Shop event — _Stephen: 'only about 50 people who came to the West Green Coffee Shop and played it. And that was it.'_ - [HIGH] Stephen wrote master's thesis-level rules documentation for multiple games at Deep Root, including Raza and others listed on fun with bonus website — _Stephen: 'I have a rule set that I helped contribute on for three years... parts of the rule set were described on my website... just search for Raza and you'll see what I wrote about the rules'_ - [HIGH] Raza featured a pin bar as a critical hardware component that controlled game start and consolidated switch management — _Stephen: 'the pin bar was key to starting the game... key to the concept... how you could have all your switches on one screen... If the pin bar had an issue, you could not start the game.'_ - [HIGH] American Pinball currently has Valhalla and Hot Wheels in active production, with Oktoberfest and Houdini ramping up in the new year — _Stephen: 'It's safe to say on Valhalla and Hot Wheels, Oktoberfest and Houdini also in production, but they will be ramping back up again in earnest in the new year.'_ - [HIGH] Stephen's role at American Pinball involves game testing, rules analysis, sales, promotion, marketing, taking orders, and aspirations toward creative game design — _Stephen: 'I've been involved in game testing... rules analysis, sales, promotion, marketing... being at the shows... taking orders... I want to get more involved in creative'_ - [HIGH] Michael Grant has departed from American Pinball, with Stephen and Max Finisac assuming portions of his responsibilities — _Stephen: 'With Michael Grant gone, are you going to be assuming some of his role? Yeah, I've already started assuming some of his role... Max Finisac who is here who has also been hired in the sales department'_ - [HIGH] Raza underwent extensive rules testing and balancing with shot logging and score audit tools to ensure skill payoff and mode balance — _Stephen: 'testing... getting other people to play it... score balancing... adjusting the scoring so that you have your risk-reward right... shot log would literally show me down to the point what happened'_ - [HIGH] Tournament logistics including volunteer availability, tech support, game reliability, and timing predictability are more critical to player satisfaction than tournament format rules — _Stephen: 'When do I arrive? When will I be able to leave... how well do the games work, meaning less delays. And the amount of volunteers is key... The tournament runs smoothly.'_ - [HIGH] Stephen plans to maintain tournament participation and pursue commentary opportunities to promote American Pinball — _Stephen: 'I am trying to get into the tournament scene because one reason is I get to the tournament is because I might have a chance to do some commentary... I'd definitely love to do some pinball commentary.'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I do have a rule set that I helped contribute on for three years that's just sitting there, and I don't know what's going to happen with it." > — **Stephen Bowden**, ~5:30 > _Expresses disappointment about Deep Root's failure and the uncertain fate of years of rules work for Raza_ > "My real Christmas wish is that more people get to play it just so that I can know how good is it really, because I'm too close to it to really give an honest opinion of it." > — **Stephen Bowden**, ~6:45 > _Reveals the core frustration: lack of wider player feedback due to limited release of Raza_ > "If the pin bar had an issue, you could not start the game. You have to press the start button... If the pin bar wasn't working, I don't know what you do with that machine." > — **Stephen Bowden**, ~10:30 > _Highlights the critical dependency on pin bar hardware and concerns about long-term durability and serviceability_ > "It's not saying it's like revenge. It's sort of like, if revenge and inspiration had a combined word, you know, it's like I want to pour it all into American Pinball and say, yes, we will succeed here." > — **Stephen Bowden**, ~18:00 > _Shows emotional investment and motivation driving his work at American Pinball post-Deep Root_ > "Notice I never said anything about what the rules of the tournament are, because they don't matter. We know what they are before we go." > — **Marty Robbins**, ~38:00 > _Establishes strong opinion that tournament format transparency is non-negotiable; complaints about known rules are player responsibility_ > "The volunteers... scorekeepers and techs... If you have that, you probably have good timing with tournaments. Timing is very, very important." > — **Marty Robbins**, ~37:30 > _Identifies volunteer management and operational execution as core success factors for tournaments_ > "Getting that logistical stuff done so you can actually just go there and have fun without thinking about all the logistics. That's the key." > — **Stephen Bowden**, ~42:00 > _Summarizes player-centric tournament priorities: logistics trump competitive format_ > "I'm very happy with Frank and what he's been able to do... I mean, I'm very happy with what they're able to do. And our goal is just to improve the game and make it play better." > — **Stephen Bowden**, ~25:00 > _Praises Valhalla development team responsiveness and collaborative bug-fixing approach_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Stephen Bowden | person | Pinball game designer and rules expert; formerly at Deep Root Pinball working on Raza; now at American Pinball in multi-disciplinary role including testing, sales, and creative development | | Jeff Teolis | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast | | Martin Robbins | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast; game designer associated with Haggis Pinball; runs major tournaments in Australia; works in multiple roles including sales and marketing | | Deep Root Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer where Stephen Bowden previously worked on rules design for Raza prototype; company status uncertain following failure to bring game to market | | American Pinball | company | Current employer of Stephen Bowden; manufactures Valhalla, Hot Wheels, Oktoberfest, and Houdini; currently in production and ramping up titles | | Raza | game | Deep Root Pinball prototype featuring pin bar hardware innovation; rules designed by Stephen Bowden over three years; limited playtest exposure (50 players at coffee shop event); status unknown after Deep Root's apparent closure | | Valhalla | game | American Pinball title currently in production; subject of Stephen Bowden's game testing and rules analysis; being debugged and refined for tournament-stage stability | | Hot Wheels | game | American Pinball licensed title currently in production; part of Stephen Bowden's sales and promotion focus | | Oktoberfest | game | American Pinball title currently in production; ramping up in earnest in new year | | Houdini | game | American Pinball title currently in production; ramping up in earnest in new year | | Michael Grant | person | Former American Pinball employee whose departure responsibilities are being distributed between Stephen Bowden and Max Finisac | | Max Finisac | person | Recently hired to American Pinball sales department; competitive player ranked in top 100 WPPR with potential for rapid ranking growth; working alongside Stephen Bowden on sales and player relations | | Dennis Norman | person | American Pinball employee; reconnected with Stephen Bowden after transition to company | | Sophia | person | American Pinball team member; noted by Stephen Bowden as working hard on game development and production | | fun with bonus | product | Website maintained by Stephen Bowden where detailed rules documentation for Deep Root games (particularly Raza) is publicly archived and searchable | | District 82 Tournament | event | Upcoming tournament that Stephen Bowden plans to attend; reputation for reliable scheduling and execution | | Bang Back Winter Tournaments | event | Tournament series occurring in mid-January; mentioned as upcoming tournament opportunity for Stephen Bowden | | West Green Coffee Shop | venue | Location where Raza prototype was publicly played; approximately 50 players accessed the game at a single event there | | Houston Arcade Expo | event | Venue where Deep Root prototype of Raza was displayed with similar playfield to later version; Stephen Bowden observed earlier iteration without complete rule set | | IAAPA | event | Major industry trade show where Stephen Bowden represents American Pinball | | Frank | person | Valhalla developer at American Pinball; praised by Stephen Bowden for responsive bug-fixing and collaborative approach to code updates | | Stacey Borg | person | Tournament logistics specialist on Martin Robbins' team; manages scoring and participant movement at major tournaments | | Stu | person | Technical lead on Martin Robbins' tournament team; manages game maintenance and technical support at major events | ### Topics - **Primary:** Deep Root Pinball Closure and Raza Prototype, Stephen Bowden's Transition to American Pinball, Rules Design, Testing, and Balancing Methodology, Pin Bar Hardware Innovation and Limitations, American Pinball Current Production Status, Tournament Organization and Player Experience - **Secondary:** Volunteer Management and Operational Logistics, Game Reliability and Technical Support ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.35) — Strong positive sentiment about Stephen's new role at American Pinball and the company's direction; significant disappointment and sadness about Deep Root's failure and Raza's limited exposure; optimistic but cautious tone about future opportunities; collaborative and appreciative tone toward colleagues at American Pinball ### Signals - **[personnel_signal]** Stephen Bowden joins American Pinball in multi-disciplinary role after Deep Root Pinball closure (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'transitioning to American Pinball has been an experience... I have moved... I am a suburban Chicagoan' - **[personnel_signal]** Michael Grant departs American Pinball; responsibilities distributed to Stephen Bowden and new hire Max Finisac (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'With Michael Grant gone... I've already started assuming some of his role... Max Finisac who is here who has also been hired in the sales department' - **[product_launch]** American Pinball has Valhalla and Hot Wheels in active production; Oktoberfest and Houdini ramping up in new year (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'It's safe to say on Valhalla and Hot Wheels, Oktoberfest and Houdini also in production, but they will be ramping back up again in earnest in the new year' - **[code_update]** Valhalla undergoing active game testing, bug hunting, and code refinement with goal of tournament-stage stability (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'game testing on it... see if we can find out and really nail it down and then get it updated and test it out... my goal is to get that game on stage' - **[design_innovation]** Raza featured pin bar as critical hardware component for game start and centralized switch management; durability concerns remained unresolved (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'the pin bar was key... how you could have all your switches on one screen... If the pin bar had an issue, you could not start the game... I don't know anybody who knows how to fix a pin bar' - **[business_signal]** Deep Root Pinball appears to have ceased operations; Raza prototype not brought to market; rules documentation remains archived on fun with bonus website (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'I do have a rule set that I helped contribute on for three years that's just sitting there, and I don't know what's going to happen with it' - **[sentiment_shift]** Community expresses relief and satisfaction about Stephen Bowden's successful placement at American Pinball despite Deep Root disappointment (confidence: high) — Jeff: 'I was like, oh, all right, that's awesome... Steven, you know how I feel about you... pretty much everybody I've talked to are thrilled that you're at American Pinball' - **[content_signal]** Final Round Pinball Podcast episode 49 features extended interview with Stephen Bowden; shows recording structure and editing timeline management (confidence: high) — Jeff: 'Episode 49... we recorded in two parts. We do the interview, and then we do kind of our little post banter' - **[community_signal]** Tournament players and operators prioritize logistics, volunteer management, and game reliability over tournament format rules; scheduling predictability critical for out-of-town participation (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'When do I arrive? When will I be able to leave... how well do the games work... The amount of volunteers is key because that means less delays' - **[design_philosophy]** Stephen Bowden employs narrative-driven rules documentation approach, extensive testing with non-designer players, shot logging for balancing, and skill payoff verification (confidence: high) — Stephen: 'It was written that way... here's what happens when the perfect player plays this game... testing like, what happens if you knock out 100 zombies?' - **[competitive_signal]** Max Finisac, recently hired to American Pinball sales, is competitive top-100 ranked player with rapid growth potential (confidence: medium) — Stephen: 'Max Finisac... is a very good competitive player as well, so easily top 100 already. If he goes to a couple of majors, he'll jump up really quickly' - **[operational_signal]** Successful tournaments require careful tracking of historical timing data to predict future event duration and manage player flight schedules (confidence: medium) — Stephen: 'knowing from previous results what the times were... this tournament ended at X PM... it will probably end at X PM this time' --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Hey, happy new year. It's Jeff Teolas. It's also Martin Robbins. This is the final round of Pinball Podcast. Happy new year to everybody. Is it new year yet? No, but it will be by the time this comes out. You know how long it takes me to edit these things. Episode 49. And a little sneak peek, by the way. Marty, you and I had a great show last week with Gerry Stellenberg, but we recorded in two parts. We do the interview, and then we do kind of our little post banter. What we didn't do last week, and if you go back and listen, is we didn't do this part. We didn't do the intro. Well, it doesn't sound like that. If you listen carefully to episode 44 and episode 48, Marty sounds pretty similar, and even cut off to the point where it's like, we don't have time, we've got to get right into this. Yeah, because I knew you had done it, I could tell, but I don't think anyone else did. Well, good thing we didn't tell anyone. That's our little secret. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. This time, we are recording. This time, we do have our guest standing by. He's been on the program before. He's one of our favorites in not only podcasting, but in all things pinball. Steven Bowden joins us right now. Hello, Stephen. Hello, gentlemen. It is a genuine pleasure to speak with you. Many events have transpired since we last spoke, haven't they? What happened? Nothing really. I remember the last time we spoke, I believe part of the conversation that I remember was I was asking Marty's opinion on shot axes versus playfield axes in rules. I remember that part specifically. Yeah. And we had a little discussion about that. And this was before I knew about his involvement with Kelts, though. That was nice to hear after the fact that... Did you listen back to the news and go, oh, he was fishing for all these things? No, no, no, I didn't figure that. But I'll tell you, when I heard the news, I was like, oh, all right, that's awesome. I wonder if he's going to put a shot X in the game there. That's going to be interesting to find out. But, yeah, as I said, things have happened. So I wonder how much you want to get into that or what. Okay. Well, let me start by saying you've moved. I have. I am a suburban Chicagoan. So, yes, I have moved. I am in my new domicile here, you know, just chilling out here. And, yeah, I am no longer in San Antonio. I am up here in the – Really? How did that happen? Yeah, how did that happen? Yes, I'm a real American now, yes, just like the Hulk Hogan song. Right, so, yeah, transitioning to American pinball has been an experience, and, you know, I've already hit the ground running, and with my position that has many hats and many aspects. So, yeah, I am raring to go, and I am still going every day. It's very busy. Well, let me call it out, because we had said many times about Deep Root, We were obviously wheeling it on, but we kept saying it, and not that we wanted to put pressure on your shoulders, but, you know, you were the yardstick. You were the one we're like, well, we just want, we want Steven to be successful. And so obviously it was disappointing for everybody for a number of reasons when it didn't happen, but our first thoughts went to you. Got to tell you how freaking pleased I was to see you go to American Pinball because it's like, you know what? As long as he's okay, we're okay. Well, I really appreciate that. And, yeah, when I think about, you know, what happens in the, I guess, the company that shall not be named, I don't want to call it Voldemort or anything. But, I mean, yeah, I do have a rule set that I helped contribute on for three years that's just sitting there, and I don't know what's going to happen with it. I mean, I guess it's good that parts of the rule set were described on my website, so that's public. so that's fine to talk about any of that so uh i guess that's one side effect that's still out there i mean that's pinball history so that's not going anywhere as long as i have control of funlessbonus.com and as long as i pay the hosting fees it's gonna stay up there and it's still searchable just search for raza and you'll see what i wrote about the rules and i was just looking forward to really to the criticism of you know positive negative what you like what you didn't like and all that. And so I kind of, I'm not going to miss that. I'm going to miss all that. So essentially what I have is my contribution to a master's thesis just sitting out there basically unproven to only about 50 people who came to the West Green Coffee Shop and played it. And that was it. So that's really disappointing. But I don't know what's going to happen there. I really, my real Christmas wish is that more people get to play it just so that I can know how good is it really, because I'm too close to it to really give an honest opinion of it, because I'm right up against it. I try to have a perspective, an outside perspective, to see how, you know, how good it was, so I can tweak things and whatever. But, yeah, it's disappointing not to be able to get anybody's honest, most people's honest opinions. I've gotten some, but, again, it's only the people who were able to play it that day when it was available at the coffee shop. and yeah, so that's my real Christmas wish. I really wish that at some point more people will play it and tell me how they liked it and how they didn't. I know this isn't the constructive criticism you were hoping to have by people playing Raza and yeah, there were only a handful that did. You certainly got a lot of time on it. I don't think any of the criticisms I heard of Raza were about the rules. I think perhaps maybe it was how does this game get made and you had that game at What's Brewing. You had the Deep Six, if you will, show up and play the game with the pin bar. I never saw the pin bar. I saw the old prototype at Houston Arcade Expo. Similar play field. I know there were some tweaks and stuff. The rules weren't all in there yet, so I didn't really get to see what you're talking about. But the big question was, how did that game get made? And again, cut me off if you can't say anything, but how did that game get made? And there's a lot that there's a lot that I can't say that I don't know. Honestly, it's not. It's a lot that I don't know. So, I mean, as far as, you know, the rules that were on the game now, everything that was on everything that I posted about and wrote details on it were in the game, tested, score audited down to the point. Like, you know, like I wanted the way I wrote it. It's sort of like this was this and this was this and there's no formula or whatever. Like, I want, this was written almost like a story. It was like, here's what happens when the perfect player plays this game, and then here's what happens when the player starts making mistakes or doesn't do things or does alternate things. And so it was written that way. So all of that was, like, tested. Like, I'm testing, like, what happens if you knock out 100 zombies? Does the game glitch out or something? You know, like, that deep. Like, shooting the same thing 100 times, things like that. So that's how far into the testing that I was with it. So my biggest worry wasn't the game, the rules, the shots. It was the durability of it. And because we can replace the machines we have now, whether it be Stern or Williams or Valley or JJP, there are parts available and we have techs that do that. I don't know anybody who knows how to fix a pin bar. I know what happens when my iPhone or my iPad cracks or something goes wrong or the button doesn't work or this and that. If the pin bar wasn't working, I don't know what you do with that machine. So I was excited to get Raza. I was, even as someone who was purchasing it, worried what happens when something goes wrong with this. Was this going to be a game I could play for five years, ten years? And that would have been the biggest question I have. And I really, I guess we'll never know. Yeah, I'm going to say I guess we'll never know. I'm just going to hold out hope in some distant day that we'll at least get to see the proof of concept. But, yeah, the pin bar was key. I mean, it was key to starting the game. was key to the concept as far as, like, maintenance, how it made maintenance easier, how you could have all your switches on one screen and just wipe it over and, you know, do certain things like that. And even things we tried, like, hey, what if we could just have it so that people can play with the status report constantly on so they can just play if they wanted to. They can see that literally their bonuses move as they're playing. So if they wanted to play it that way, that was a thing. So there were some things that I saw as innovative that we were using the pin bar for But the pin bar was a linchpin in that way So that is correct as far as I could see I mean, if the pin bar had an issue, you could not start the game You have to press the start button If you saw the What's Growing stream, there was a start button in there that was a touch button So you had to do that in order to begin Did you see how you were going to integrate the pin bar into all the different titles, or were you really just focused on Raza at that stage? I was focused on many of the titles that were on that webpage. I had a plan for just about all of them. Everything that was on there, I had a nearly master's thesis worth of rules for each game. So it was just going to be, let's knock them out. Let's prove the concept. And then let's move on to the next game. Let's move on to the next game. Let's test it. Let's see how these rules really work. How right am I? How wrong am I? Is this fun? You know, keep going in that way. So there were a lot of plans and a lot of thinking that I did and a lot of writing and a lot of score balancing and a lot of, you know, well, let's add this section. Oh, did I mess up any of the other sections? Oh, is this unbalancing the scoring? Oh, let's see what, let's test this out. Does this make this mode score not as much? There was a lot of that multiplied by a lot of games. Well, one of the things that I've, in my very recent amount of time doing rules, well, officially, one thing I've known is it's all great to have it on paper and concept, but as soon as you start playing the game, everything changes. Did you have games to test the rules on, or was it all really theory or virtual? Well, for the parts that we had games made, it was physical. And then, you know, some parts were mostly theory. So I don't know if I can get as far as to what that line is. I don't know. But if I can do that, but, yeah. But for Raza, just considering how much Raza had to be edited by little tweets and things as I was playing and testing it and getting other people to play it who weren't me, because that's what really counts. So if I play it, that doesn't really, that's like if you're a system administrator who runs a network, sure, you can get into all the stuff. That doesn't matter. You know, what matters is the end user. What can they do? So, you know, so once I started making the adjustments based on while other people were playing, what they were seeing, what they weren't seeing, it was like, why didn't you see that shot? Oh, because I didn't point out this shot correctly with the light pattern. Oh, okay, let's change this to make it more obvious. Things like that. that will make some edits happen and definitely some score balancing. The most thing that will happen is, like, adjusting the scoring so that you have your risk-reward right, so that you didn't fall on one mode and make sure that everybody aims for this mode because they know that this mode scores the most. And so every time you add something, you have to make sure that everything is still balanced. It's sort of like when you have a game like Street Fighter or Smash Bros. and they added all these characters, every time you add a character, you have to make sure you balance with everyone else. so it gets harder and harder every time you add something. So that multiplied by the number of modes you have and number of features, you have to make sure each time that you're not going to unbalance something. And so when I found that that would happen, I'd have to audit it, use the shot log, which made it easier to do. I mean, like, shot log would literally show me down to the point what happened, and I'd say, oh, that's why the score jumped by this amount. Let's have a look at this point right here. Is there anything I can do here to balance this out? And then there are times I'm thinking Well, if the player did this and this And they did this and this I gotta pay him his money I gotta give it to him So that would leave that in I mean, you gotta pay off skill So you don't wanna be so controlled That you're not paying off skill So I had to make those decisions As I was working through Especially Raza You know But yeah, that was definitely a learning experience And I do have a lot more theory A lot more ideas and we'll see if and when those ideas can transpire. I mean, as far as I can really get into there. So in a way, yes, everything is on thumb with bonus that you had for Raza, but you were working on a few other games. So there is maybe a blessing in disguise is that, okay, that's only for my eyes only. I can apply those things to future titles at American Pinball. Right, because you can't control a concept. I mean, a shot pattern is a shot pattern, and progressions are, you know, the rules of three, things like that. You can't really, I mean, you can reuse and tweak them and, you know, make them your own in different ways. So, yeah, that's true. So, yeah, that I believe is a possibility, but, like I say, we'll see what happens with my career at American. I'd like to get to designing games, but I don't know. You know, I'd like to get to that far. Let's see. Well, let's talk about that. Your role at American, you said there's many hats. Talk through what it really involves. Okay. So, so far, I've been involved in game testing, like rules analysis, sales, promotion, marketing. I guess being at the shows, that's sales and promotion as well. So, like, you know, being at IAAPA and the expo and shows of that nature. So that will continue. And even up to taking orders and things like that. So I want to get to where I can start focusing more on creative. I mean, I've been involved in the creative department. But, you know, I want to get, hopefully my goal is to get more involved in creative. But, you know, we've got to sell games too. So I'm doing that as well. But that is my overall goal is that, you know, as my career with American continues, I want to see where I can slot in in the creative area and see if I can progress in that way like I was doing with Deep Root and see if I can apply some of these ideas to some future games. But, you know, right now we're selling Valhalla. We're selling Hot Wheels. So that's what we're doing. So it is, like I said, it is a position of many hats, and I'm very glad to be there. And so I'm appreciative of the team and the hard work that they do every day to get these games out. Those are a lot of hats. Who's in charge of vocal talent critique? I'm just curious. Can I be? We all are. We all are. We all are, yeah. By the way, Fick says that Odin might get a good job on Sesame Street. Odin's a great counter. He's a great counter of things. He counts really well. Hold on a second. I do a count. One peanut butter sandwich. Ha, ha, ha, ha. That's right. He lets me know how many targets are left. I have no doubt when he tells me what it is. So, absolutely. Sales are going well. you mentioned for Hot Wheels, for all the titles, and they're all currently in production. Is that safe to say? It's safe to say on Valhalla and Hot Wheels, Oktoberfest and Houdini also in production, but they will be rearing back up again in earnest in the new year. But Valhalla and Hot Wheels are rolling, so that's the current status there. So, yeah, and it's very, very, very busy. I'm learning that part of the job, the sales part. It also involves a lot more things that I'm learning as well. But, yes, just, you know, staying motivated to do – to help out as much as I can with this company because, I mean, they know I'm motivated. And I am motivated to do whatever I can to help American Pinball succeed because, I mean, not only my natural, I guess, passion for pinball that I've built up. But, you know, it's almost, it's not saying it's like revenge. It's sort of like, if revenge and inspiration had a combined word, you know, it's like I want to pour it all into American Pinball and say, yes, we will succeed here, even more than they already are. And I'm going to help them do that, whatever way I can. So even like a game like Valhalla, which is pretty much, it's been in existence for a while, do you get to have a critique on it as far as gameplay and rules go? I mean, in a limited way, and also I get to, you know, I've been doing game testing on it, so we can see what, if any shenanigans happen. Let's see if we can find out and really nail it down and then get it updated and test it out so we can get a new release out and make it even more stable, because my goal is to get that game on stage. And by on stage, I mean, like, at a major. So, yeah, so that's what I've been involved in definitely recently, He's testing Valhalla. Let's get into it and see if I can create strange things happening through natural gameplay. You know, can we get some, you know, much the same way that I was, you know, testing Raza. Can I get strange things to happen by playing the game naturally and, you know, focusing on early play? See if we can get weird things happen there. If it seems stable there, move on to more of the mid-game stuff and then into the strategies. and then if we're still safe, go to the end game and see where it lies there. So, yes, that's definitely one of the hats I wear when I can get time is to go over and test the latest beta and see, you know, what's happening and see what's been improved and if anything he's fixing. And it's getting better. I mean, it's getting better and it's getting fixed every day. I mean, there's lots of – I mean, I am very happy with Frank and what he's been able to do. and how he's been able to respond to things that I found and things that we found with it. I mean, I'm very happy with what they're able to do. And our goal is just to improve the game and, you know, make it play better. Marty, what similarities do you see with maybe yourself and Steven or Haggis and American? Okay, I was going to say something, and I thought, oh, you know what, I don't want to make it about me. Let's make it about me and Steve just here for a second. All right, I'll get out of here. See you. Oh, my God, thank you. I'll be back in ten minutes. It wasn't too subtle, good. Because as I was listening to you, it is so relatable to me because obviously I'm game designer and rule designer, but I have many, many hats. And I think that's the nature of, I guess, working for a company that is not one of these large companies where it's just all hands on deck. And if something needs to be done, you just get in and do it. So I'm also responsible for sales. I'm also responsible for marketing. I'm responsible for the print room. I'm also responsible for game testing and, you know, bug testing and assembly and all that stuff that you do as well, Steve. Yeah, that's all the stuff that Jeff wishes he could do instead of lame-ass call-outs. Yeah, just keep talking, Marty. Just keep talking. Just ignore that. But as I said, I was just hearing everything. One hat of many colours. Two hats of many colours. Well played, sir. Well played. Well done. So the answer to your question, Jeff, is yeah, absolutely. I'm listening to it going, that is exactly my life at the moment. So it's interesting for Steve and I. That was great. I am in awe of both of you. You know that. Marty, I just hate to admit it. Damn it, you got me to do it on a podcast. Steven, you know how I feel about you. I, Marty, and pretty much everybody I've talked to are thrilled that you're at American Pinball, looking forward to seeing what comes out from you, from that company. With Michael Grant gone, are you going to be assuming some of his role? Yeah, I've already started assuming some of his role, but, I mean, luckily for me, we have Max Finisac who is here who has also been hired in the sales department who is a lifesaver. So we are a team to both of us. Now, he is a very good competitive player as well, so easily top 100 already. If he goes to a couple of majors, he'll jump up really quickly. So it's definitely good to have a couple of players who are a couple of experienced players in here, especially with everyone else who's also there. I mean, just think of what we got there. I mean, I got to walk in and I got to talk to Dennis after a while, and, boy, that was a conversation. Dennis Nordman, man. I'm glad to be working with him again. And Sophia. I mean, I'm just going to be a name check of everybody, but I don't want to do that because I'll miss everybody. But I want to name everybody because everybody here is working really, really hard on getting these games and getting these games out. And it's really, really, I want to do whatever I can to help. And I hope that I am helped. I believe that I am. And you said that you get to go to shows and represent them. Are you going to be one of these people that, you know, now that you're in the pinball company, you don't do tournaments as much? I hope not. I am trying to get into the tournament Because one reason is I get to the tournament is because I might have a chance to do some commentary Which is my other favorite thing Right I'd definitely love to do some pinball commentary So if I can get on commentary I can maybe even promote American Pinball A little bit But no I definitely I'm going to do my best To stay on the tournament scene Hopefully supported by American Pinball Hit nudge Whatever, hit, hit, nudge, nudge, whatever that may be. But, yeah, so, I mean, I know we've got an event coming up in District 82, so definitely looking forward to go to that. That place was amazing when I went there before, so I'm looking forward to that event. That's going to be fantastic. But, yeah, and we've got Bang Back coming up really soon. The Bang Back Winter Tournaments are coming up in mid-January, so that's definitely going to be a thing. Got to end this coming up. I mean, it's going to be tournament season. So I will do my best to stay on the scene. And, yeah, that's all I can say about that. Perfect lead-in to our next thing. Was it? Well, I do think it is because I wanted to get Stephen on here to talk about tournaments. And Stephen has played in many tournaments for many years. One of the top players in the world. Marty has experienced in tournaments as well. Not only as a player, but also someone who runs a major tournament in Australia. I run a few tournaments. Nothing as big as you, Martin, but I've certainly played in a lot like Stephen and done a few. So I want to kind of think of if you're going to run a big, big tournament, and we're talking Stern Pro Circuit size, so probably a multi-day tournament. Maybe there's more than one tournament. You want to attract people to come to your event, and that doesn't mean just the locals, but maybe people from out of town, so hotels and flights and all these things are included, maybe car rentals, all that kind of stuff. For me, and Stephen, I think you and I are similar in many ways, I think we look at what the tournament has to offer. And there are things that I think are essential, and I'd like to know what you think is essential. For me, I'd like to know, and a lot of times you don't know this until you get there, does that tournament have a lot of volunteers, which means scorekeepers and techs, to keep it moving? If you have that, you probably have good timing with tournaments. Timing is very, very important, because if we are coming from out of town, we might have flights to catch. And again, back to having enough text, I want to know that these games I'm playing are working. Notice I never said anything about what the rules of the tournament are, because they don't matter. We know what they are before we go, and we can determine whether or not we want to play in these events. We can't bitch and complain about rules when we know in advance. So if you do bitch and complain about it, that's on you. Yes, you might have your favorites, but you should never argue about what the rules are in a tournament when you go to a tournament and they're laid out in advance. Steven, when you go to an event, what are the things you look for to make it a successful and happy tournament? And I'm not talking about where you finish. No, no, I'm not talking about that at all. Your first point was key because when I'm looking at a tournament to go to, I'm scheduling at first because I have to look, okay, flights, right? I'm looking at the format of the tournament to predict how long the tournament might take regardless of whether I do well in it or not. So just be planned. When do I arrive? When will I be able to leave to go back home? That's just key logistical stuff before you can start to just gauge whether or not you can go to the event. That's first. And then, I mean, once you're there, then you're talking about, okay, how well do the games work, meaning less delays. And the amount of volunteers is key because that means less delays. The tournament runs smoothly. The predicted time usually happens in that way, and then you're able to not miss a flight on the way home. You know, so those are key things that are even external to the tournament format itself. Because once you have the format, you know, most everybody who plays knows what the format is. And the people who don't, the formats are easy to learn. You know, your strikes tournaments, your, you know, your flipper frenzies and all that. So that's pretty easy to learn. But getting that logistical stuff done so you can actually just go there and have fun without thinking about all the logistics. That's the key. So that first point you made, I fully agree with because I'm already trying to predict, okay, do I have the best flight to get home from the bang-back tournament? I think I may have to push it to the following day because what if we stay later or something like that? And, of course, I don't want to just leave when it's over. I want to hang out a bit. And so that's also part of it because it's not just going to the tournament, playing, and leaving. It's also going to the tournament, meeting people, hanging out, having fun, maybe doing some stuff after the event. And then, you know, in my case, you know, promoting American Pinball as well and seeing about any American Pinball games that are there, like Valhalla or Hot Wheels or et cetera. And so, yeah, that is a key that needs to be, I mean, and I guess sometimes carry with it that reputation that's been built up over years that the schedule will be followed. So, like, for example, in disc, I'm highly confident in that one. You know, right? I'm highly confident that that's going to be run well and it's going to be awesome. So if I can get myself there, then I can pretty much predict. The logistical parts will be worked out so I can concentrate on having fun. Would you also say, I might be a little bit presumptuous thinking that I know the answer to this, but would you say that you prefer tournaments where each of the rounds is also scheduled? Meaning, let's say a pump and dump Where you've got to wait Per round for your next game Is less ideal versus Let's say a match play game where Once everyone's done their round, you go to the next one And that's all scheduled? Well, it's more predictable that way Of course, I mean, to a certain limit I mean, even the District 82 events Which had all those tournaments in a row There were times where events had to leak over Into other time periods Because certain games play long All right, so if you have one of those wild card games that just happens to play long, that'll screw up even that sort of regimented schedule. It still will. But, I mean, if you have something that has like a Papa style finals, you can basically predict, okay, two hours per round, okay, about plus or minus, and then you can add that to the end of the qualifying time and sort of predict it, kind of. Just granted the fact that people start playing slower as you advance in the finals because they're playing more carefully, so that sort of extends it as well. But just as long as it's reasonably – I mean, I guess what I really wish I did is that knowing from previous results what the times were and keeping track of that for future results, you know, like previous results as far as future predictions and saying, okay, well, this tournament ended at XPM, and it was the same format, so it will probably end at XPM this time, maybe. if it's the same sort of format. So that would help guide it too. I know that would be kind of hard to keep track of because nobody really, I don't think anybody really keeps track of all that. They just ran a successful event, so I understand that. So, Marty, when you're running your big tournament, are those some of the factors you think of, the volunteers, the scorekeepers, the techs, that the games are working, the timing? Are those important for you? Absolutely critical and that why I make sure I got a good team around me that can manage those things So you know Stacey Borg particularly scoring and moving people and arranging people Stu was doing all the tech and he was also phenomenal. And there was this, you know, team of scorekeepers as well. It really is the most important thing because I think we said this many times. As long as the players see that it's a well-run tournament, that's the main thing, because behind the scenes, it's usually a mess, and you've just got people just constantly fixing and changing things, all for the betterment of the player. It's controlled chaos. It's controlled chaos that you hope not as many people notice, but many people understand and appreciate. So these various people understand it, they appreciate what's happening, and they also can appreciate that, you know, how you were able to paper over certain things that happened and, oh, it was a well-run event and then you're going to get more people next year and then before you know it, you're running an F5-type tournament. You know, you're basically, you know, you're at that level. Yeah. Our F5ing debate. So, and once you get to that level, you know you got it. Yeah. Yeah, I also find when people come up to me and they say, or, you know, did you know that, I go, yeah, that's planned. Yep. It's a good thing here. But as long as you remain cool and it's like, yep, understood. And even if something, you know, fucks up, you can just go, you know what? Unavoidable. We've just got to move forward. As long as you're calm as a tournament director and organizer, then people will be calm. If you start panicking, people are going to think that something's fucked. Right. As long as the general is calm and consistent, everyone else will sort of like, okay, follow that lead. Take that inspiration and everything's going to be fine because it's all for pinball at the end of the day. And so with all the volunteers dedicating their time, hopefully the people appreciate it. And most of the time they do. And so you'll find that your event becomes very popular if you've run it well. And all of a sudden, as I said, you're running an F5 tournament. Most tournaments are annual, and you're right. Your first time going to the tournament, you don't know what the experience is going to be. Maybe you've heard from others and they've given you some feedback. But when you go to a tournament and you have a great time, you're very likely to go in future years. And Stephen and I were just at Freeplay Florida in November in Orlando. That has been a lot of fun, that tournament. And Daniel Spoller has been running it for years. Well, Daniel was unavailable this year. He was doing his Love Across America tour with Project Pinball. So the people from the Pinball Lounge took over. And hand up here, I was not worried, but wondering what will it be like, because Daniel had done it a few years. Well, kudos to the Pinball Lounge, because they ran, they called it pre-play Florida tournaments at the Pinball Lounge just to get used to timing and to teach the volunteers how to scorekeep and with rules and things like that. And it was spectacular. And that was perhaps an unknown, but if you now see that tournament coming up again, whether it's Daniel running it, whether it's Pinball Lounge, you know, okay, it's going to be a good one. So a lot of times preparing the volunteers in advance, I think, is very beneficial to tournaments. Oh, yeah, and that tournament, I do my best to get to that every year. I mean, and they ran it so well this year. It was fantastic, and, you know, the live streaming was great. I really appreciated the preparation that they did to step into those shoes and really filled them very well with how they ran that tournament. It was fantastic, and I'm looking forward to it next year. and as soon as I see the dates, which I don't know if they had the dates for that already, but I don't know if many of the dates were put out for some of the circuit events yet, but as soon as I see that, I'm writing that down. And I'm seeing if I can work my way down there. Can we happen to have an American football game down there so I can represent? You know what I mean, right? So do what I can to get back down there. Likely right after IAAPA, yeah. Yeah, that was great. I was so glad I was there. I mean, I was sad that I had to miss Fantastic because that was a split. That was a conflict, right? I had to miss Fantastic where I was a defending champion. So I had a champion's obligation, and I couldn't fulfill the obligation to it. But I was at Free Play Florida, so that was very good. That was a very good tournament to be in, and I definitely enjoyed myself. So let's go through some of the major tournaments right now that you've been at, and I'm going to describe them to people listening to Marty because these are all different formats. And if we can think of one suggestion from past experience or just looking ahead at what their tournament format is going to be, what might be a good suggestion for that tournament, we're going to go around the table and ask each of us. We've all been at InDisc. I joked a few weeks ago about the only thing I would change at InDisc is have more food available because of the old location. Well, that doesn't matter anymore, so I don't even know what I would say for InDisc. I mean, I think people might say, well, you know, it can be expensive, which you could say about any pump-and-dump tournament, right? This is a tournament which is a pop-a-ticket style, so you have to play five games on the main bank, and they all count on one ticket. So you better do well on those five, or maybe you have to ante up and buy another ticket. Is there anything you could suggest, Martin or Stephen, for in-disc that might make it better? And this is a tough one because I think that's a near-perfect tournament, and I think, Marty, it's even your favourite. Marty, what would you think? Well, I mean, you almost covered my main suggestion and that is location. Like, it was at Banning, which, sure, Banning's fine, but for me, travelling, it was sort of in the middle of nowhere. So I would love the location, but now, obviously, it is in a better location, so that's not a problem. But as far as format goes, I would put it back to Pump and Dump. Even though I've never played in a ticket style, I just don't think I'm going to enjoy it. Yeah, after the location part has been pretty much remedied, I mean, I'm going into nitpick territory. I'm talking about, like, maybe each classic round, you're probably only going to get one chance because it's so popular. Maybe two. Right. And I don't know whether you can really remedy that because it's just so popular. because of the amount of people that are there, that just boils down to play better on the one chance you get. Well, is a suggestion perhaps make the classics limited entry? That might work, yeah, that way. What Stephen's talking about is there's so many people that go to InDisc, and you've got the main, which you can play over several days. Classics are scheduled for one day, and then it's done. The next classics event, one day and it's done. So those lineups can be pretty big. And again, that's not a fault. That's just due to the popularity. So people are trying to get lots and lots of entries in on these games, but if you made it limited, maybe that would make a difference. And classics, they even have a lot of games in classics at Index. I mean, how many? Oh, several. It's several. And even that still, the cues for those games are very hefty, very quickly. You pretty much have to get in there at the beginning of the day and then either concentrate on it and that's it to get another shot, another couple of chances. But if you're messing with the open and classics, I don't think that's going to be a good budget of your time if you're trying to get in classics. But, again, there are people who are good enough to do that in one shot, so that just boils down to play better. I'm not one of them. I'm not one of them in classics. So I have to spend my first entry just finding out how the bounces go. Right? and then hopefully at that point took what I learned with that money and take it to the next entry and see if I can put it together. It's a lot of fun. It's coming up first weekend in February. That's InBisc. And check out their Discord, too, for some interesting trivia as well. The next big tournament on the calendar is usually in March, and that would be the Texas Pinball Festival. So, yeah, Stephen, you'll be headed back down to the – it's not in Dallas. Where is it? What city is it in? It's – what is it? Frisco? Why is that? No, Frisco? Frisco, that's it. Frisco, yes. So, yeah, I'll be glad to head back down to Texas for TPF. Always got to go to TPF. What ways can we improve that one? Well, just to let people know, that's a limited-entry tournament. So here we're suggesting it being a limited-entry tournament at Indisc, maybe for the Classics. It doesn't matter if it's not. We're just, like we say, nitpicking, trying to find maybe one way to make it better, and I don't even know if that's a possible solution. But this is, what do you think, Marty? You've been to TPF as well. Bigger room. Bigger room. Okay. Bigger room. Yeah, that's it. Massively bigger room. Like, you've got to have double the size because people actually standing around in there were pretty much shoulder to shoulder. And what I found is that people were really playing the games and you really couldn't get a lot of spectators in there. Now, didn't they used to be in the main room a couple of years ago? Yeah, it did. Right? But then they would have almost, even though it was a big room, from what I heard, and I wasn't there, traffic was an issue. People that were not in the tournament kind of walking by and maybe getting in the way. And, Marty, you've been at tournaments where some kid goes up to play a game. Oh, that's a tournament game. Yeah. So I think, I don't know if that was the problem, but it just was, you know, here's all these games and everyone's huddled around. Oh, what's going on there? It was the separation I think needed to be done. So now I guess it's just a matter of is it possible to do a bigger room? Who knows? I don't know. Yeah, because it does get pretty packed in there, especially for that pre-play period where you're, oh, here comes practice, and then you're just trying to get a couple of games in on every game to figure it out. Okay, everybody get out. All right, we're done. So, Stephen, you've been there for the Texas Pinball League finals, and they are usually held before the Texas Pinball Festival. Right. And we've heard people say, you see it on forums and whatnot, boy, those people in the Texas Pinball League sure get a chance to get a feel for those games. because the players are only getting limited entry, and they're playing for the first time. Is there an advance for the Texas Pinball League players? You can't argue there isn't. There definitely is, but there's a reason why they do that. It's to test the games, and testing the games is extremely important. It's one of my things. Do the games work? Well, that's what that's there for. So is the solution maybe giving players a 30-second kind of warm-up like we do see in big tournaments? Is that a possibility just to get some sort of feel, at least for the plunge, at least for the tilt, maybe for the bounce, and then you're done? Yeah, maybe. I mean, 60 seconds. I mean, 30 seconds goes by pretty quickly. I know, but timing is also an issue for that tournament. So that is a limited entry tournament, and it's hard to get all your entries in in that tournament in a single day. So is there a compromise? Is there something they can do to maybe even out the playing field? I mean, I would agree to the 30-second free play. just to see how the tilts are so that people can, they're not going in totally blind with it. But, yeah, I don't want to trade. I guess I don't want to trade the fact that those games are tested out and games that are not working are eliminated. Neither do I. Yeah, I don't want to trade that because, yeah, I do not want to trade the possibilities of having things messed up, you know, screwed up because, oh, this game could have just been tested before and it would have been eliminated beforehand. And the games are playing a little differently anyway throughout the day, so whatever advantage gets lost, it's like, okay. Yeah, the reason I bring up the testing is because when the Sharp Brothers run tournaments, and they do for the IFPA World Championship, and they do for Pinmasters, and Pinmasters is a tournament, many people can go to that tournament. They allow testing before every game. Now, it's a good thing they do because, as we know, the Sharp Brothers like to have extremely tight tilts. If there's a ball save, they like to turn it off. Things like that. Star Wars. Star Wars, yeah. See you later. I remember playing Black Rose with Jason Werdrick, and he plunged and tilted. Plunged and tilted in Vegas. But anyway, that aside, you know what? At least everyone got to have 30 seconds on the machine to get some sort of feel for it. And pin golf is a real tricky thing. I don't know. Marty, have you played much pin golf? I have played it a couple times, yeah. What's difficult about pin golf is if you're playing at 8 in the morning and you're playing at 11 at night, they could be two totally different machines. The flippers might not have the power anymore. Who knows? Things could be adjusted. It's tough to do pin golf, I find, to have some sort of consistency over a day-long event. It's not impossible. It's just tough. But that could be the same said for, I guess, any sort of tournament that's got one or two days qualifying. I mean, the machines do change over that time. I guess if a flipper is strong in the morning and not at night, and a pump-and-dump tournament, you know that, okay, that game, I better not play later in the day. I'll play it in the morning the next day. There's a little more options, whereas a pin golf, you only have one option to play that. That's the only slight difference there. But you're right. Machines change throughout the day. Yeah, I guess the only thing about that is that if you're in a match play, it doesn't matter as much because then you're all playing the same in that particular match, then everything's sort of equally bad or good for that match. And then you're free to check the power of the flippers after, whereas you may not be as free doing a pump and dump. Like, what is the best practice on pump and dumps if you're noticing, like, for example, if you're playing monster bash and, oh, no, the kick out is setting the ball down the middle. That's no good. But what do we do? I mean, there must be some way. I mean, to counteract that, but we're in a pump and dump, so you're not supposed to, or what? Whereas if you're in a max play, you just fix it. Okay. Max play, fix it, move on. It just, I know that there's this fine line between doing subtle adjustments and repairs. I would have a tech look at it, and if there's something tech that can be repaired, that needs to be repaired, then go for it. But if it's a wire that needs to be bent or a bracket that needs to be slightly bent, I wouldn't do that. Even if the result is, like, if you land in this place, it will go down. Like, if you land in this consistent area, like a scoop in the middle with no ball safe protecting it, then it's, whereas in the beginning of the day, it wasn't doing it. And then... Yeah, but if I can see that somebody goes in there to look at the bracket, and the bracket is slightly out because it might need a screw or nut tightened, then absolutely do that because that means that something's moved over time. But you know what I mean? Like if you can see something that's visibly or physically changed, then fix it. I suggested to Josh, and he kind of laughed at me, but I was serious, that it would be great if there was some sort of tool, sure it could be 3D printed for tournaments, that was a tilt bob measure of some sort, a ruler it could be, something that showed you here's where we're going to be at the start of the tournament. We are whatever centimeters or inches away from the top on the tilt bob. And then in the case of that black rose game we were playing where the tilt bob obviously moved and Jason Werdrick plunged and tilted, you could say, okay, yeah, that's definitely not what the tilt bob was at the start. And here's the proof. Here's the ruler. So that was the one thing I suggested. But that's not what I would suggest for a pin golf tournament. My suggestion for a pin golf tournament, because it affects timing. Timing is always a difficult thing in pin golf tournaments. I find that in pin masters, you know, you want to make sure the average hole is three balls. Again, for maximum TGP. They kind of take off the ball saves a little bit. They tighten the tilts. I don't think you need to do either of those things in pin golf. I think you just need to increase the scores. Because it doesn't really matter what the scores are. It matters how many balls you do to get that. So if you have a game that plays a little more easier, let's just say, and the scores are higher, it doesn't mean you're going to be playing five balls to get that. You might actually be done earlier in time. Which is fine because it's fine to have a score set easier because that just means don't screw it up. That's fine. And it would run faster. I mean, I'm definitely okay with an easier goal because that's a different set of pressure. That's don't screw it up. That's everyone else is getting twos. You know, everybody else is birdying. You better birdie as well. You know, right? So, and having a bunch of those type of holes will help speed some of it up a bit. Even if you, yeah, even if you had the games on default settings, if you had them on pinball expo settings. Boy. We'll get to expo in a second for sure. Right. If you had them on those settings and just did it that way, then it might be as opposed to like breathe on games and tilt through. Here's why that stinks in a pin golf. If you make the tilts tight, the next player, I'm going to wait two minutes before I plunge. That's why it's ridiculous to have tight tilts in a pin golf game. So therefore, make the scores higher. You'll get more action in because, again, there's a lot of tilting that happens, and that just makes it go longer and longer and longer. It's harder to achieve, more balls. Something to suggest, anyway. Not that the Sharps ever, ever listen to me. But we have all been at Pinberg. Now, that tournament doesn't exist anymore, sadly. Rest in peace. We hope someday, somehow, something like that could happen again. There is something very close, by the way, happening in Edmonton in July. It's called Yegpin. Look for that one. But Pinberg, we've all been there. And, boy, you want to talk about a perfect tournament. The games were tight but fair. The timing of the tournaments were perfect. Oh, my goodness, did they have a lot of volunteers and scorekeepers and techs. Everything I want in a tournament. I don't know what I could suggest, and I really don't know what I would suggest for Pinberg for making that better if it ever came back. I do. You do? Okay. Yeah, I do. I would make the location of your game digital. Remember when you start, you get the paper, and people would be running around going, shit, which bank am I on? Which machine am I on? Am I on this floor? Am I on the next floor? Which bank am I on? just make it easier for people to know which game they're going to. And I will say round one of the tournament is probably the biggest culprit here because there are a lot of people that are going to Pinbeg for the first time and they don't understand the sheets and the games and the banks and where to go. Fair enough. But, Marty, you're talking about like just as far as people just finding where their games are, making that a little easier. Yeah, yeah. They're a victim of their own success. They're so huge, and they have 1,000 people. Yeah, yeah. It's like a big area. It's like Group 87. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's a suggestion and a compliment. Yeah, that is. That's why, yeah, you're so huge, it's tough to find the game you want to play. And they're organized, and these in order, I mean, they even have the, they had them where they had placards at the end of them which would list, these are the eight sets in this row or something, or these are the four sets here, These are the four sets here. I remember that being a thing as well. So that helped. But I do understand what you're saying, Marty. I mean, if you're not an experienced player, you might not be able to – it might be like getting lost in a Walmart full of pinball games. It's like, I can't find Jungle Lord, and I'm looking through all these other games. And I really get me while people are waiting for you to come, and they can't really get in contact with you really until you get there. But, I mean, it does get to a point where people do get to learn, you know, around three or four things start to even out. But, yeah, there is that first round. I mean, but that is the only thing I can think of. What, like make World Poker Tour harder so it doesn't take, so it doesn't be the only game that somehow breaks up the schedule and the history of the event, right? I think that's the only one, that's the only time when there was an epic game of World Poker Tour, which stretched everything, and people were watching this amazing event happen. And, yeah, I mean, everything else about the tournament is there's a reason why people say that Pinburgh is, like, what's your favorite tournament and don't say Pinburgh, right? So it's because of that. A slightly different tournament, and you mentioned it earlier, was at Pintastic, the Silver Ball Rumble. You were the champion before this year. In fact, I made it to the top four, and we both couldn't defend our top four, if you will. We were at Freeplay Florida. But that's a well-run tournament in the Boston area. And I do have one suggestion for that one. It's run by Jim and the people at the Sanctum. So, again, it checks all the boxes as far as enough volunteers, scorekeepers, techs. The gains definitely work. The timing of it is great. All the things I like about it. So what could I possibly suggest for that tournament? And, by the way, there's a women's tournament as well. my only suggestion would be have another tournament, maybe a classics tournament. And the only reason I say that is it's more attractive for out-of-towners. I loved that tournament. I loved everything about it. I loved the show, the people. Gabe and Derek do a great job running it. But if you had another tournament, it's more attractive for me to say, okay, that's worth my while to go to something I can play in two events, for women, three events. I'm getting more bang for my buck for travel. Definitely agree there because that was definitely a thought I had when I was originally looking at the Pentastic versus Fleet Plate Florida conflict. And it was number of events. That was one aspect of it. Might I also suggest more fireball at the Pentastic event? Well, that was me who brought it, by the way. You know that. Hello. More fireball, please. That's always wanted. But, yeah, run a classic. It's just the open, right? The open event Let's get a fully Walkerized classic event there as well They've got a decent amount of space In that back there, they have that back portion On lock, so everybody, as soon as you go in You know where the tournament is, nice big beautiful Banner there Just draws people to that Area, so you can somehow Fit a classics event there If not there, then maybe in one of the Side rooms in that place, assuming They go to the same place, because I know they were in flux this year. I mean, we don't know if they're going to be in the same venue next year. But even if we're in one of those side events, the side rooms, like the VIP room and all this other type of somewhere, there's got to be another place to have another event in there. Yeah. To have a class. Chuck Webster ran his, I think, New Robert Englunds Pinball League trash talker in a side room. And I was in that with Greg Pavarelli and some other people. Joel Lemaire was there too, Marty. and we were playing and just, I mean, trash-talking at an all-time high. Fireball was definitely in that room. Oh, yeah, it was definitely there. Yeah, oh, yeah, that and a few other colorful things. But anyway, a great tournament. That's coming up in late June next year. Marty, do they have anything? I think they do. Allentown, that's the Pinfest tournament. Allentown's the big swap meet, and that's what goes on in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Is there anything like that in Australia? I think there is. I don't really think there is. As far as, you know, having everybody in the car park and, you know, opening up the back door of their wagons and selling wares out of the boot, we don't have that. At Flipout that we put on, you know, we asked people to bring their games and people could sell their games if they wanted to, but nothing like that sort of buy-sell culture at any of our shows. Or it's the main purpose. Okay. I have not been to Pinfest, so it's hard for me to talk about that event. I know that's something you've been to, especially when you were living in New Jersey, Stephen. What I heard, and again, I've never been to it, so because the games are put there by volunteers, I'm assuming they're working. That may or may not be the case, but I assume they are. The difficult thing I always heard about that Allentown tournament was getting all your entries in in time. That is correct. There's more time. And I don't even know if it's something that they can do. And if that's the one thing, it's more time needed. And I don't know if they're even allowed to just by the hours that it's open. And that is a limited entry, isn't it? Yeah. And even then, you're still sitting accused of sea witch and it's like 13 deep. You're like, what happened here? It's like, wait, what? How did this happen? But, yeah, it's more time. And I don't know if they're able to even do that because the venue may have a time limit. I noticed the hours. I'm just remembering, just remembering in my mind that at Pinfest, the hours are much less. I'm just thinking about it now. And I'm remembering those cues, looking onto my cell phone and saying, well, I'm 12th in line for Sea Witch. Okay. I guess I'll go to the swap meet or something. I'll go next door to eat all that fabulous food, and then maybe I'll be ready and get my one entry. It's funny. We talk about some of the tournaments. We're specifically talking about the tournaments. And, by the way, every one I mention, I recommend going to, every single one. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's why we're mentioning it. Yeah. That's why, yeah. But what you hear about Allentown is really, is it really about the tournament? No. It's about the atmosphere that you just described, the party, the fun, eating next door, all that kind of good stuff. That's the one thing I – the Houston show, they have a great tournament, and you were there this year. But really, that is the party tournament, the party expo, I should say. It's more about the atmosphere, and, you know, you go for things like that. Pinball Expo is kind of the weird one because Pinball Expo has this fantastic tournament that they give away a brand-new pinball machine from Stern. They have a classics event. They have a big women's tournament. They have all kinds of other things, the pinball Olympics that are off-site. So you've got both the gathering of the show, people that want to see the vendors, and the homebrews and things like that, and the new games like your Legends of Valhalla and other games that we're seeing. But there is the tournament that goes on there, and it's the biggest bracket tournament ever. So if you're playing in that tournament, you make the playoffs. Well, what that means is the playoffs are going to take a while. and timing unfortunately gets hurt with that because these are all new in box games default settings and they can play for quite some time so if you win your match you have to wait for the other bracket to get done or they might be waiting for you and in some cases that may be ours yes it is very very tough to gauge the timing on that i mean the estimates on there are pretty good based on previous results, but yeah, you can get to a point where all of a sudden everybody's picking a long playing game. It's like, oh, we're playing Mandalorian again. We're playing... So you might have won, but you're waiting for the winner of the winner of the winner of the winner in this loses bracket match or something. No. So it's like, wait a minute. I'm waiting for... Yes, I won my match, but I'm waiting for the winner of the winner of this match. Like, you could be waiting for five brackets, Marty. And I'm not exaggerating. Not this year. The previous year that I was there, I saw somebody win, and they had to wait five brackets. So what do they do? Do they sit and wait? Do they go off to the show? Do they go grab a bite to eat? There's all these things you have to think about. And then another time, I saw a person say, okay, yeah, I know I'm supposed to be playing you, and that person's been waiting, but I haven't eaten yet. Do you mind if I go eat? What? So now I've got to wait another hour? It's just, how do you fix the timing in that bracket? And my suggestion was less people in the playoffs. I know that's the attractive thing about it, but maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's not being allowed to wait for that certain machine if there's already one or two people in the queue. Right. Limit the waiting. That's what helps as well. What are you doing? I'm waiting for this match, but they're waiting for this game, which is being played by this group of people already. So I've got to wait for that one, which is unrelated, and then this one to get to the winner of that, and then I get to play. Marty, when you run tournaments and if they run on a Sunday, I don't know how local everyone is at your tournaments. If they come from, you know, Queensland or Sydney or who knows, wherever they come from Australia to go to your event in Melbourne. But at Expo on Sunday, they have a classics event, and unfortunately I know several people that said, even though I'm still qualified, even though I'm still playing, I have to go. My plane is leaving. So those Sunday events need to wrap up, especially a major, major event where you're going to get people from all over, they need to wrap up probably midday so that there's flight opportunities for people to go to the West Coast or somewhere else. Do you have that problem, Marty? No. Yes, yes and no. I mean, the way I run the tournament is you would expect by the end of the day it's really only the final four. So if people want to watch, they can, but if people are out of the tournament, they can go. But I'm usually wrapped up by a certain time, and you know, to travel really anywhere in Australia, East Coast, it's only an hour flight. So let's say you allow yourself two hours to leave and get to the airport to get on your plane It not that difficult for people to actually find their way if the tournament runs late But you know look how do I say this I think if you are there for a tournament the tournament comes first regardless of how long it goes. And my personal example I'll give is Indisc when I got into B Finals and I didn't realise that they changed the time of the B Finals. I thought it was 2 o'clock in the afternoon. it was six o'clock and my flight in LA was at 7.30. So I had to make a decision on what I was going to do. And if you remember, I decided that I was going to drive because I had to go to Utah. So I decided that I was going to drive, I don't know, eight or nine hours overnight to get to Utah and stay for the finals. But I ended up catching a plane and all my money that I won by coming second in B division, all went on accommodation and flight. And that's just, you dedicate to the tournament. High roller. That's it. That's the things we do for pinball. That's it. Yep. Wow. That's money bags. Well, no. No. I spent the money I earned in the tournament, Jeff. So it wasn't money. It was like, I literally, I was top four. It was dedicated for hookers and blow, admit it. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. We know. We know. Correct. But again, what I'm saying is that I know that there are people that, you know, have to work the next morning and there's flight times. If it's that much of a risk, don't risk it. There you go. I've said it. You know what, Marty? I've now done, I normally like to come into a tournament a day early just so I'm not jet lag and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Okay, so I was with Stephen in Florida, and that was another example where I thought, okay, I don't know when this tournament's going to end. It didn't matter anyway. I didn't make the playoffs anyway. But had I made the playoffs, as I had in years past, I would have been, oh, boy, you know, I've now got a COVID check. I'm going through Orlando, which is one of the busiest airports in the world. It's a Sunday night. Every kid and their family from Disney is going to be there. It's going to be a long lineup. I'm just going to fly Monday morning. So that was my kind of safety net. That's now what I'm choosing to do. as opposed to get there early. And, yeah, that's an extra day, an extra day off. But I think you're right, Marty. If you're choosing to go to the tournament, suck it up and, you know. I'm not saying suck it up. I'm not being that rude, Jeff. What I'm saying is that tournament directors and tournament and, you know, the event organizers are doing their best to have things run on time. So if they don't, just don't be angry at them. Because that's what I've seen. I've seen online in particular a lot of people get quite abusive towards organizers because of scheduling problems, and they happen. And I guess what I'm saying is we've probably all been to enough tournaments to know that these things can happen. So if it does happen, you've got to be prepared for it. You've got to spend your earnings. Plan ahead. No, I agree. Yeah, I agree. I mean, and it is your responsibility as a player to give some leeway and timing as well. You know, yeah, if you do have to spend that extra day, if you can, do that just so that there's no pressure. Because I've done the whole run down to get to my exit, and, no, I happen to barely get on to the plane. You know, so I don't want to do that anymore because I happen to make finals. I was like, oh, okay, I've made finals. oh, I think I'll make it this flight. Oh, okay, probably a little bit right, a little bit long. Okay, let's see what we can do. Okay, so, but if you have to just give yourself a little bit of extra leeway, just in case, because, I mean, schedules break because it's a pinball. You can have a group of people just have great games, or a game would just break in the middle, and then you have to end up playing an extra game because of a catastrophic malfunction or something like that. So these are things that you cannot predict, no matter how well the tournament is run and the tournaments that are well run recover from those things really quickly but you have to also take responsibility yourself and say okay I have myself enough leeway so in case something's happen I'm still good if it doesn't happen then I just have a lot of time and I have some leeway to spend and hang out or do whatever and so it just makes things less stressful that way because Because you're there to have fun. You're there to have fun at the tournament. Okay, finally, the last one, Stephen, and we appreciate you. We've had you on for a while, and I appreciate it. But the final one, I want to say only affects 20 people. Do you know which one I'm talking about? 20 people. Is that the latter one? Yes. It's the Stern Pro Circuit Finals. Oh, yes, the Stern Pro Circuit. So Steven Bowden is the number one seed when the Stern Pro Circuit Finals happens sometime this spring, fingers crossed. and how this works, based on the 20 Stern Pro Circuit events, you get points. And whatever your Whopper points, you add those up for the 20, puts you in the top 20. Steven played in a lot of Stern Pro Circuit events. He did very well at them. He won Pintastic. He is the number one seed, so he will be playing when there are only four people left. It's a ladder match. So the top 20, the first round will be 17 versus 18 versus 19 versus 20. They'll play one game, I assume that number 17 picks, and the loser of that game is gone. Thanks for showing up to Chicago. You're won and done. Now, they might have a side event of like the Heads Up Challenge that they usually do, which is another tournament to win a pinball machine. But there is an incentive of making the top 20. Everybody gets paid for going there, and I think it's $500 or $600. The higher you finished, the more you get. So, Stephen, just for showing up, what do you get? I don't remember. I think it is $1,000. I remember that being a thing because I remember saying, okay, that covers my flight. And that covers my flight and hotel and all that. Okay. So at least that gives me the incentive to go just in case if I happen to go in there, pick one and bomb out. At least I was there and at least, you know, it was good. So that's all right. I mean, I'm glad people are still thinking about it because I'm still, yeah, it's been a while since I thought about having that number one seed just sitting there. Yeah. I hate to. But that's interesting because Daniele Achari, who won the event years ago, he just limped in. He might have been the 20th seed, and they held us in Pittsburgh right before Papa, I believe. And so he got in, and he was there anyway. Okay, perfect. And he won it all. So there was some people that said, well, certainly he's an outstanding player, but he might have had an advantage because, okay, well, he's warmed up. He's played so many games. You're the number one seed. you're going to be playing people that have played more than one game. Everyone's played at least one, some people more than that, and you've got to go in there cold. You're going to pick the game. You'll probably have to go first, so you won't get to see what your opponents are. You could be one and done. I certainly could have. I certainly could be. I'm just hoping I can get enough warm-up. If there are any other, like, maybe practice games in there, I can just start warming up with and just try to pick a game that I can get some good ball time on. If I'm one and done, at least I want to have me won and played a good game and done. Because then you only have to beat one other person. So that gives you the chance to advance. As long as you just beat one person, then you just need to have good ball time in order to do that. This tournament can't exist, I don't believe, without that kind of incentive of you're already going to be getting $600 to show up. Yeah. So that's great. But is there one thing you can do to suggest to make this tournament better? I've got one. What is it? You have none? I'm thinking, I mean, other than another side event, because when people bomb out, like when the 20th, 19th, and 18th, and 17th, I mean, as people start getting eliminated, there's got to be something else for them to do other than drinking at the bar that it's set up at, right? Marty? Nothing. Nothing. I would say remove the D-list celebrities that you've got coming. And I'm not trying to be a dick here, but seriously, they don't add anything to the pinball tournament. Every pinball tournament player is like, what the fuck is going on here with JWoww or Brian Q from the Prankster Show? Like, all they do is distract. And they bring in a lot of people, I'll get you. But it's not really for pinball. Is it pinball exposure? I really don't know about that. I just know it's been chaotic in years past and distracting while major events going on. Yeah, I know what you mean. When you're watching this, which is, let's face it, the top 20 players of the year battling it out, it is high stakes, it is everything, it's like the best play you can have. I want to hear commentators commentating on what's actually happening. Yes. That's it. Yep, I get that. Would you want that commentary? I mean, if you were in, I mean, I wouldn't mind. If you were in that finals, would you want that commentary that was done like Pimberg style where you could hear the commentary in a limited way? No, I would hate that. But I have headphones to blot that out. I've said many times I hate people commentating my game if I can hear it. Because I want to know that. Because if I'm at the booth, because if I'm the number one seating up and I've been invited to the booth, I'm not going to abbreviate myself. because there's a deal with the top 20 players, so you know what's lit and what isn't. So I'm not going to, like, abbreviate myself as far as my commentary because it's being broadcast. I mean, I've had, you know, debates within myself of whether I would do that, you know, because, oh, am I coaching? Is it whatever? No, you're not. No, no one's coaching a top 20 player of the year. You're not. So that commentary is, depending on how it's projected, I mean, at least in Pinberg, it was projected outward. So you couldn't really hear it. It would sound like this, you know, when you heard it on stage. But I imagine a circuit event, if it was in that confined area and it's broadcast out, it would be pretty clear. It might sound like a Call of Duty broadcast or like a League of Legends broadcast. so I don't know if that would bother some people. But, yeah, I guess break your headphones out or if you're good at blocking out sounds. We've taken a lot of your time. We look forward to seeing you. We look forward to American Pinball, all the good things there. And it's good to hear that you've landed on your feet in Chicago, and we only know good things are going to come. All right. Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on. It's a real pleasure to talk pinball with you again, and I can do this for as long as you need. I'm talking pinball, and it's a good day where you can talk pinball with good friends, so I'm happy for that. Awesome. You've had some big wins. I wonder if your biggest pinball win was when Marty saved you over Raymond Davidson. Be honest. That was pretty good. I've got to say, that was pretty good. You know, I think if that can be one of the few times I beat the one player in the world, I'll take that. I'd like to believe. I may not get another win on that ever, so I'll take that all day long. You're welcome. Yeah. Raymond lost twice. He lost to you, and then last episode, he went up against Keith. Marty killed them both. Yeah. And also, not that I want to labor this point, but it all came down to my very first tournament in the U.S. and my very first tournament in the US was Indisc 2016 and I don't know whether you know this, Steve, but this was the first time I met you and we were sitting down in the classics area and you had just had a shit game and you were like, oh, fuck it. But I had said hello to so many people and a lot of them had ignored me and you didn't. You had a chat with me and I went, oh, I like this guy. Hey, because the game's ended. You know, that's it. recover and try again. I mean, you know. But you didn't have to talk. You didn't have to say anything. You could have just gone, you know, whatever, some annoying Aussie guy. But we had a chat and I remember that. Well, you know, I appreciate remembering that. I certainly remember it. I remember that. I remember much less the garbage game that I had. So I'm good. I'm able to put that, I'm able to put that behind me. So, yes, definitely. Do you know the first major tournament I ever went to was the Canadian Pinball Championships. It was in 2015. and my friend Randy, you were there, my friend Randy, we were outside and you were walking outside and you said, see that guy right over there? And I said, yeah. He goes, that is one of the greatest players in the world. And then we later talked at that tournament. And yeah, not only one of the greatest, but one of the nicest too. And you seem to be, you know, if you can talk to me, if you can talk to Marty, you're probably like that with everyone. So thanks very much, Steven. All right. Thank you all for having me on the show. I definitely appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to talking with you all again, hopefully sooner rather than later. The ever amazing Steven Bowden. What a legend. Did we learn anything, Jeff? What we learned, Martin, is that if we had any listeners, they're all gone now because we talked a lot about tournaments. But the good news is we don't have any listeners. It's been proven. The voters have put in. Nobody's listening, so we can do whatever the fuck we want. Correct. If ever there was evidence required for the fact that we don't give a shit about awards, it's right now when we've had a lot... The funny thing is, we've had a lot of people message us. Well, I've had a lot of people message me. We've not even spoken about it to each other. Not bothered. Good to see. This is the tripping nominations, by the way, for best podcast. We didn't make the list. Pinball Profile did. Fine with that. I'm just happy that those people that want the award are on the list. Sure. Yeah. Right now. Okay. So when we recorded the first part with Stephen, again, pulling back the curtain, that was on December 27th. So when we said Happy New Year and all that bullshit, it was just that. Today is, in fact, New Year's Day. It is for me. It's January 2nd for you. It is. Correct. So Happy New Year. You too. And to everybody. And so, yeah, these nominations came out. Sure. Congrats to everyone. Seriously, that's very, very exciting for those people. It does mean a lot to a lot of people. So if that was your wish, awesome, great, wonderful. I guess maybe we're doing it wrong. How can we get better? What have we fucked up over the last year? Let's be critical of what we have done. Well, I'll tell you probably the one thing is we don't report on the news. We don't really. I mean, sometimes we do, but we don't really go through what's topical in pinball. And, you know, I did that with Head to Head. and the amount of effort it takes just to keep up with everything, I ain't got time for that. Do you know why I've never been a fan of doing that in, obviously, Pinball Profile or in this is because, for some stupid reason in my head, and it's my problem, I find the shows are dated when you do that. I have people that contact me about old Pinball Profiles I've done that are essentially timeless because they weren't really relative to new things. Now, that's not always the case because a new game would come out and I would talk to Tim Sexton about Led Zeppelin rules. So that's, you know, dated because that's an old code and all that stuff. And it was topical because it came out. But other things are just kind of generic pieces. And I like to broadcast what I like to listen to. And I like interesting stories. By the way, all those podcasts on there, you've probably heard them all. And if you haven't, go listen to them. Yeah, they're great. Yes. So I want something that I really strive to do something that's different than everyone else. I've always been that way in everything I do. And I think this little format that we do is really it's the banter between you and I. It's two friends taking shots at each other, you know, trying to make each other laugh. It literally is a way for you and I to schedule in a conversation with each other every fortnight. That's what it is. and people happen to be listening to it, and thanks to everybody that reached out, we're not bothered. Yeah, honestly. I do this gladly because it entertains me, and it's selfish to say, but that really is it. And if other people like it, great. If not, probably not going to fucking change a thing because I don't want to conform to something that I'm not comfortable with. I don't know. I like what we're doing. Wouldn't it be awesome, though, if people profile one at... No. Oh, that would be amazing. No, I tell you why it would be amazing. Because you would hate it, and I would love it because you hate it. Martin, you know something only one other person knows, and I'm not going to say it. You know exactly what I'm talking about, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. I wouldn't hate it. I would be humble. Do you want to know something? I asked Jeff Patterson last year to take me off the list. I know you did. I said, when I saw people like Loser Kid not get on or Slam Tilt, who thankfully are on this year, I thought, you know what? I don't even know if they care, but I just like, I really don't. When you started HeadHead, when I started this or Pinball Profile, we didn't do it with the goal of, oh, please, someday give me a fucking award. Well, because there was no awards at the time, remember? That's our point. We didn't do it for that reason. We did it because we wanted to have some sort of unique niche of pinball podcasting or a different take or cracking jokes or whatever it is. So hopefully we're doing that. And if we're not, don't listen. But I think we have a few listeners, and we're thankful for it. But really, honestly, we do it for ourselves. It's so selfish. It's a lot of work for you and I at times, but it's, I don't know, I think it's a necessary evil to have that Fortnite talk that you and I do, and we get to shoot the shit. I personally think it's a direct response to you saying that we're not going to do the reach-arounds this year. People are going, well, fuck you then. And if you don't like award shows, fuck off. I think that's what's happened. Anyway, the more we talk about it, the more it makes it look like we actually do care. Let's move on. Let's move on. Steven Bowden is a gift to this community in more ways than one. We are thrilled that he is with American Pinball and what he will do. I saw, in fact, today, being January 1st, new code for the recent game, Legends of Valhalla. So I'm curious to see what that will be. I'm curious to get the game myself. and I can only imagine better things to come. Boy, he's so humble. When he was talking about his rule set and they're on funwithbonus.com and he's got different ideas, but they haven't really been tested out in the wild, so to speak, we're going to see that now and I think we're going to see some great things. It does break my heart that he is in his own humble mind and maybe you're the same with Haggis. Unproven. Sure. I think you both, Even though we haven't seen your rule sets, I would say you're ahead of the curve for most people getting in the hobby. Maybe. Maybe. You're too humble. But the other thing I learned from speaking to Stephen is that even though the jobs that we have are really varied and interesting and diverse, they are nowhere near as interesting as your job. What? Because obviously you found what we're talking about boring. So clearly it mustn't be interesting. Did I miss something? Yes. You yawned when we were talking about our job and you started yawning. I was just trying to crack a joke again for our two listeners. They might enjoy it. The listeners being me and Stephen, yeah. And Ian, who we make fun of every week. Those are probably fun. You know what? You know what it is? It's between making fun of our guests, our listeners, and then killing off the other ones. That could be the problem. Yeah, there's a lot of death coming from our show. So maybe people will be like, a bit morbid, won't give you a nomination. Fuck, you didn't kill Betty White, did you? Oh, stop. Like two weeks before she turned 100. Bloody hell. You know what? My son and I were talking about Betty, honestly, a week ago and laughing about some of the things she did. And I said, you really got to go watch Golden Girls. It's funny, he goes, Dad, I hate laugh tracks. I'm like, you don't have to fucking tell me that. But I said, the writing is really, really, really good. If you like Arrested Development, a lot of those guys got their start on Golden Girls. Did you know that? Yes. So sad to hear about Betty White dying, and thanks, Ian. Poor Ian. Oh, we love it. Ian did, actually it wasn't Ian, somebody who goes by the name Dr. Dude. God love it. He sends these funny emails to us, and we have no idea who it is. But Dr. Dude, you're awesome. Keep sending them. He said we should call the Who Will Marty Save bit to something that's more of a pun, which podcasters like to do. He suggested we call that segment Death Save. Oh, genius. Absolute genius. So let's call it Death Save. We're going to call it Death Save. Yep. Except we did it a lot last year and it proved to do nothing. So I'm afraid the only death that's happening is that segment. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it's one that's caused? I think it needs a code update. We're not going to kill anybody. There's too much death and destruction in this world. Can't we just really hurt them? And when I say hurt them, I don't mean physically. I mean emotionally, which probably scars even longer. Can't we just do that instead? I think it's the same thing. For them to hear me say, I would rather this person die. I think that's emotional scarring right there. Marty, I don't want to call this segment Death Save. We will still continue with Who Will Marty Save? But no one will peril. I can't do anything about the seven you killed last episode. They're all done. Look, I'm not a miracle worker. I can't bring them back from the dead. Sorry. Apologize. But if we were to bring in two new people, and I'm trying to think, well, I always make it difficult for Marty because I always pick two people you really, really love. And wouldn't it be easier if I picked two people you couldn't stand? and I don't know if you have any more disdain for anybody than Canadians. So we're going to pick two Canadians. Okay. And we just have to figure out what's going to happen to them. I should probably do this in advance, but... Yeah, you should probably do. I couldn't think of anybody that's a Canadian that I don't like. They're just the loveliest people. But should you choose, and I'm going to make it very difficult, You are about to watch two Canadians go out onto a frozen lake to go skating. Okay. And one's on the east side and one's on the west side. And they don't have cell service. And you've just been given a report. The ice isn't thick enough. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You can't save both. Sure. And because of your big heart, you want to save at least one of them. Do I? Will it be Canadian Ed Ed Robertson, who thinks he's an expert on ice? By the way, today, New Year's Day, he has sent me not one, not two, three pictures of him on frozen ice. Okay. So, Ed Ed Robertson or Todd McCulloch, who lives in the States now. But wasn't the premise of these people that I don't like? I like both of these people. But they're Canadian. And you're saying you like Canadians? I stand corrected. I don't like all Canadians, obviously. Good point. But Canadians are the loveliest people. I'm yet to meet a Canadian I don't like. There you go. We'll find one. Mm-hmm. So, poor Marty, you know, you're torn. Do I save Ed? He's been a guest on this show. He provided a great theme song written by himself for the reach-arounds. Or Todd McCulloch, who has provided the pinball world with so much. He was the host of the IFPA World Champions. He's been a guest on this show. We had some good laughs. He's always welcome back on the show. If they survive, that is. And, Marty, you've got to pick. Do I tell Ed, don't go on the ice? Or do I tell Todd, don't go on the ice? Okay. Tough one. It's not tough. Whoa. No, and let me explain. I also want to point out the water is over eight feet deep, so that if you're saying, well, it's only five feet, Todd can stand up in the water. No, they're going under. No, I mean, I could have gone down the path of, well, they'll freeze, and then you can thaw them out later, like, you know, those caveman type things. Gotcha. I'm not. I actually, one of them can die. I'm fine with that. Oh, whoa. Yeah. But in the spirit of Who Will Marty Save? and the pattern that's appeared through all of these things, Ed Ed Robertson, fantastic, fantastic musician. He's never played in Australia, though. Oh, no. Has he? No, I think. I don't know if he brought his talents to Australia. You talked about it, and he's like, well... No, I think they did when they first made it big. I'm pretty sure they came out either for a tour or for a promo tour. It depends. that. So he does phenomenal music. He's got a great voice. As I said, if it wasn't last episode, the episode before, absolutely love their new track that's just come out. Also, the song he did for the Reach Arounds was epic. Just phenomenal. Like it was professionally recorded, which was probably too much for the show. It really kind of, you know, was completely different to everything else. Ed set the standard and because it was so high, Now we can't do reach-arounds again. Correct. That's exactly right. So he is a fantastic guy, big pinhead, absolutely love him. Todd McCulloch, on the other hand, responded to my message first when we put to him, what was the scenario? Oh. Yeah. So we were both mentioning that we were friends with Todd, and I just thought it was funny to say something like, well, I'd say he's more of a friend to me, being Canadian and also redhead. We're also born, by the way, on January 27th. We have the same birthday. So he must like me more than like you. He immediately texted us both back, and without hesitation, that if he had to choose one. He's actually the original person who created this game. This is my point. Yep. If you had to save Marty or me, who would you save? And he said, without a doubt, Marty. But also, even before that, we'd had a bit of a bet that said, let's send him a message. whoever he responds to first is the better friend. He responded to me first. So clearly, I'm going to be saving Todd. Ed, love what you've done. You've done, you've had a great career, full body of work with Banneker Ladies. Well done, but you're done. You love your ice. Yep. We've tried to warn you. Oh, well. Do you know anybody else who sings songs in case we ever do reach around again now that you've dusted Ed? Well done, Marty. Good strategy. Todd, how's your singing voice? Not a lot of famous musician pinheads that I know of Ryan Adams? He's a pinhead? Is he? Oh, fuck yeah I don't know that He's cancelled Has he? Yeah, he's terrible to women Okay, I don't know him I just know the name I also know that he's not Brian Adams, is what I know Yeah, that's true One letter, major difference Yeah, correct Speaking of Canadian musicians The big news By the way, you're probably wondering where our sponsor of the week is. Because we have no listeners and we're not a top podcast, we've actually lost our sponsorship. So thanks again. Yeah, I canceled. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks. But back to Canadian musicians. A lot of controversy. I'm surprised. But maybe I really didn't pay attention to previous music pins and what people were saying. They're obviously the fans of any band that comes out. And then there are those that say, well, why that band or dad rocker, blah, blah, blah. Rush is the new pinball machine that we're going to see this week. Again, we're recording on the first or the second in Australia. I can't believe the positive and equally negative response to this machine. It's... Okay. We've obviously had dad rock pins and people's responses to it. And for the most part, people are like, ugh, you know, dad rock pin, another one, blah, blah, blah. And it's fine. You look at it and you go, yeah, okay, expected it. From an outsider, this is different. This has had, as you sort of said, extremes on both sides, but I've not seen a response like this to a music pin. And, you know, I made the point last episode, I sort of said, why does this game exist, obviously? And a lot of Australians have been piping up on social media saying that they don't know Rush. So, for me, I don't get the thing, but I will say I didn't get Aerosmith, and I think Aerosmith is a phenomenal game and I think it's a fantastic theme. I think what they did with that theme was amazing. So let's put it at this. It's a musical backdrop. I've listened to their music. My summary of their music is, and I've spoken to a few people this week, technically they are possibly the best musicians that have ever existed, ever. They are virtuosos completely. They are just technically next level. They don't really like melodies or hooks or anything that's really memorable. It's just a really nice, technical, complicated soundscape, is how I would say it. And I listen to them again during the week just to see if I could I don know win myself over with their music And I haven It not my thing but I still think it will make great great pinball music I just think it got the right energy for pinball If, and we know it's a John Borg design, if he does another great layout, I'm happy. And if it's got great art, because that was the other thing that happened. Sorry, I'm on a bit of a ramble here, but that's the other thing that happened with Aerosmith, it came out with fantastic art and it was kind of like, huh, you've made Aerosmith cool again. So I suspect Rush is actually going to be a great game. There you go. I've already ordered mine. Yeah, I have. I've already ordered a machine. Again, it's something my wife also likes, as you mentioned on the last podcast. I really like John Borg. Because of Led Zeppelin and because of the people, I'm a big fan of Code by Tim Sexton, Raymond Davidson. I just see this as a great team. Again, back to that band thing you were talking about, the polarization. Rush gives that polarization not only for pinball, but it actually does from a radio station. Think of all the classic rock radio stations I've been involved with over the years, now almost 30 years in radio. And I'll tell you, there are three artists that are completely polarizing, three of them. And it's Rush people love, people hate. And I say that because when we play them and we get emails or feedback, it's like, Love Rush, play more, Can't Stand It, I turn off the radio every time you play it. I'm serious. We get that. We get that for Rush. We get that for another Canadian artist in Neil Young. See, there you go. It's no in-between. It's either love or hate. Can't stand him. He's a god damn. Can't stand him. Oh, no. And the other artist is Bob Dylan. Oh, yeah. Another one I can't stand. So there you go. No in-betweens. tweens. And the reason, with all three of those have in common, is their unique voice. And it's piercing to some, it's sweet and soft to others. And... Sweet and soft to the deaf community. Well, I get it. So it was where I love Rush and Neil Young, I've tried and tried and tried and tried to appreciate Bob Dylan. And I certainly respect the, you know, change to electric that got him boot off the stage, and his writing and all that stuff, and how he's influenced many other people and how people have covered his songs. I've seen them in concert. I still don't fucking get it. I just... So I'm not going to say I hate them, but I also can say I'm not a fan. But respect. So there you go, respect. So as I said, I can't stand... You're right, I can't stand their voices, but I do really respect them as artists. And of the three, Neil Young, I think, has probably got the best songs, the most memorable songs, the great hooks, just really good lead lines. But I respect two out of the three. As I said, I don't necessarily respect Rush that much because I just don't know their work. But I tell you what I have been watching. I think you and I have talked about this. Whenever I see a band, there is one member of the band I am always watching. Always. No one else. It's not the singer, it's not the guitarist, it's not the keyboard player, if they have it. It is always the drummer. Oh, then you're going to be blown away by Rush. Aye. So, what's his name? Neil Peart or something? Peart. Peart, whatever. He is a spectacular drummer. And I've been watching live videos of Rush, just been watching his drumming. He's just... And I know that people have said he's one of the best drummers that's ever existed. And I can see why. Technically, he's crazy. If you just watch the song Tom Sawyer, which is featured on the Pinball Machine, It's one of those songs, he said, every time he played it live in concert, it was a challenge. And he's been playing that. And obviously, he's passed away now two years ago this month. He's been playing that for almost 40 years. And it was a challenge because of all the different changes. A lot of drummers just keep the groove, just keep the beat. And maybe the odd fellow here and there, maybe they get a little piece at the end of the song where they can go wild. He does it throughout the whole entire song. There's no... I'm trying to put this in layman terms. Four two ones Four hits on the hi-hat Two on the bass drum One on the snare And just wait till your moment to do a fill here and there No, they're complicated patterns They're ridiculous Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I'll tell you the only thing I don't like And I don't like this particularly with drummers That try to show off how good they are When they change time code Just don't do it Just stick to 4-4 Or 3-4 Or whatever it's going to be But give me a complicated rhythm This whole changing time codes thing, no, I'm not interested. Showboating. Well, okay, yes, but there's interesting things about time codes. If you're in 4-4 time and your drummer's doing 5-4 time, guess what happens every four bars? Yeah. You're back in sync. But why would you be in 4-4 and your drummer be in 5-4? Stupid. Don't be in 5-4. Listen to Led Zeppelin's Rock and Roll song, which was recorded and done in 15 minutes. Bonham started playing a beat. Jimmy comes in with her lick, and they're like, fuck, this might be something. And, of course, then they added some other stuff later. But the whole song, start to finish, 15 minutes. The times are completely different in that song. But they come back together every, let's say, four bars or so. Have a listen. It's amazing. What it sounds like the first time you hear it is a lot of fucking noise. And maybe that's what you're hearing. What I've always tried to do with bands like Rush, bands like Zeppelin, is just try to, when I listen to a song, I listen to one element of the song. It might be the guitarist. It might be the vocalist. It might be the drums, the keyboards, the bass. Only isolate one. Next time I listen, a different one, a different one, a different one. And then to see how it all comes together. That's what Rush is to me, or Zeppelin. And there's a lot of similarities there for me. It's just that everybody in the band is an extremely talented musician. They really are. They really are. Cannot be denied. My research this week is, cannot be denied, these guys are virtuosos. Just top of the game, amazing. But, as I've said, they just don't write memorable songs. They write very complicated and interesting pieces of music, just not very memorable songs. There you go. I've been to a lot of Rush concerts, and, you know, we don't know how many at the time of this recording, we don't know how many LEs there are going to be. I do know they're pretty much sold out everywhere. and I have looked. I'm not going to buy one, but I've just been curious. There's, hold up. You know what is an LE, limited edition, at a Rush concert? A woman. It's all dudes. My wife's a big Rush fan and I said, honey, look around. It was like stretching the horizon to see another woman at the concerts and stuff. You know what? It was like that when I saw Iron Maiden. Yeah? Yeah? Dudes. Dudes. And one thing about Iron Maiden, they're all wearing the gear. Everyone's got an Iron Maiden shirt. That's what I think is so cool about that. Okay, so Rush, we're going to see more of the streams and all that kind of good stuff. I think a great way to kick off the new year. Who knows, like everybody else, when these games will be available for pickup. I would imagine it's going to take a while. Operators will get theirs first, which is great. But, Marty, I've got to tell you something, and I'm saying it, not you. I'm saying it. I'm sick and fucking tired of people complaining about delays because it is in every aspect of all industries. You want to buy an appliance? There's going to be a delay. We had a nightingale talking about buying an electronic vibrating bed or something, something to do with bedding and how long she had to wait for her new bed. And I was like, for bedding? Everything. Try buying a car. Everything. Pinball machines. So if you are one of our two people listening to this show, cut some slack on all, all pinball providers for the delays because their hands are tied. From the big guys to the little guys, they're doing the best they can. They're trying to keep the lines moving, trying to keep the employees employed, and it will get better. It's just there's not a lot they can do in the interim. So rest assured, if you've got money involved from these companies, I'm sure you're going to do fine. And I would say if you've got an order on any machine for any company, except Deep Root, you will see your machine. There, I said it. Okay. You don't want to comment on it, do you? I can't. It was not solicited, people. I know. It was just from Jeff. But you obviously know my thoughts. I'm saying it because I'm seeing the occasional whiners online. But then I'm seeing nice things, too, from people that say, I've got this on order. I can wait. You know what I'm waiting for? An Avengers Premium to come in. That machine is 16 months old now. What? Have you got one on order? Yeah. What? No. Yeah. Do you know what, by the way? I'm in no rush. Oh, sorry. That's a pun. Oh. I know I will get it. I know it'll be a great machine. I know I'll probably flip it for Godzilla as soon as I get it. But the point is... No, I... You will. Everybody, I'm waiting for... I'll say this, I'm waiting for my Legends of Valhalla. That's fine. It'll come. Everything will come. Yep. I did kind of notice on head-to-head, there might have been the odd shot pointed, oh, in some direction about, what was it? The bubble bursting? You know, like, when you're not there, and we can say what the fuck we like, you know we were going to bring something like that up. Yep. Can we revisit that? Sure. I mean, we've got nothing else to talk about, so what else? Sure. Yeah, go. What did I mean by I think the bubble will burst in your definition? That prices are going to go down and people aren't going to get the money they expect. You're kind of right. What prices? That was, well, for the secondhand market. Thank you. Not for new games. Yeah, no. It's for the secondhand market. Yeah. Yeah. Because the second-hand market is the one that's gone ridiculous. Yes. I know that the new in-box market prices have gone up, but those prices have gone up with either new technology that's been put in there like, you know, Stern Insider, or, you know, bomb prices have gone up. But I don't think manufacturers have been price gouging because of the market. It's the second-hand market that's the problem. Yeah. Yeah. No, I knew that's what you meant. But don't you agree or no? You don't agree that? No, my point to you was, when and how? What evidence do you have that says it's going to burst any day now? How do you have evidence for something in the future? That was exactly my point. Thank you very much. Well done. So, yeah. Okay. That's all I was saying was, where's your evidence? Where's your proof? It's not, we want it to happen. Anyway, we've been through this. Is the lesson for me to not predict the future? No, we can speculate on it, but if there's no evidence behind it, then it's just speculation. Whereas I think it was presented as a voice of authority. A voice of authority? I can't help that. I've got a fucking deep voice and I sound like a fucking super broadcaster. I can't help that. That's all my point was. But my reaction was also social media. Everybody, you know, just... Games go up on the second-hand market. We've got our Australian Facebook buy-sell groups as well. And they do go up for crazy prices. But, you know, if people get it, as in people buy it at those prices, so be it. It's classic supply and demand. All it is is just supply and demand. So, you know, my reaction was me sick of people saying, oh, fucking price, the bubble's going to burst. Well, is it? Because you've been saying that for a couple of years now, and it still hasn't burst. I haven't said it for a couple of years. No, I wasn't saying you personally. I was saying lots of people have been saying for years now it's going to burst. Well, hang on. It hasn't, and the housing market hasn't either. There's other things that mirror the same situation that we're in. It's just a seller's market at the moment. Do you know what made me say it for the first time? And it was the timing of when I said it. It was Elvira's 40th and the $25,000 ticket price for that and people try to resell it for $30, $40, whatever the case may be. I understood the Supreme model. I didn't agree with it, but that's their buying habits. That's their selling habits. That, you have to agree with, is a commodity business, not a pinball business. When Supreme pinball machine, they fell into that commodity business. It's the limited edition mentality. Classic supply and demand. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Limited supply with an overabundance of demand means you can charge what you want. That's it. So, the bubble you're saying will not burst on limited editions and things like the Elvira 40th. Is that what you're suggesting? No, I'm saying that it will possibly happen at some time. What my frustration was is everybody saying it's going to burst like it's imminent. You're going to lose your money. It's like, no, nobody knows when it's going to happen and nobody knows exactly the extent of the correction. Or it may be that this is it forever. Who knows? But the fact that people are saying, oh, well, it's going to burst, it has to. Does it? Does it actually? Like, is there any evidence to say that it has to burst? I think you're always safe buying a pinball machine from a manufacturer, a direct store. I think you're always safe. Hold on a second. I think you actually lost money on Munsters at the wrong time. Yeah, three grand. Yep. I think if you buy it from a manufacturer direct or you buy it from a distributor, what I'm saying is you don't buy a secondhand machine. I don't think you're losing any money on it. Even all those people selling Halloweens and stuff before they even get the games. I think if you hold on to it and you don't have to wait a long time, I think you'll get your money for it. Do you not think right now today, if you still had that Munsters LE, which you did take, not a bath on, but you probably, is it safe to say you lost $1,000 on it? I just said it before, $3,000. What's $3,000? $3,000. Okay, now that Stern Connected is available with that, and there's new code. Yeah, there is new code, but it's not revolutionary new code. It's just, you know, an extra mode and a couple of, you know, bits here and bits there. It's not, I don't think it's fixed it. I don't even know what the secondary market is on that. Well, again, I don't know the price of those machines that have actually sold. I've just seen people put them up for sale, and people aren't putting them up for the ridiculous amounts of money that some people's machines do, but they're still going for $2,000, $2,500 more than list price. Oh, okay. So you sold yours for $3,000 less than list price. Correct. And you're seeing them on the market now for two, so you're proving my point. Correct. Yeah, yeah. It's just, you know, if I at the time was Ian and managed to create this virus to affect the market like this, sure, I would have kept my machine. But I'm not Ian. I haven't caused this mass destruction throughout the world. Oh. Poor Ian. We're going to go to TPS. By the way, we've never met the person, ever. No, we haven't. We do know what he looks like. We do know his full name, and we'll never release that because that's not nice. We're going to see him at TPF one time. I want to point out, you're allowed to have concealed weapons. And he's going to come up to us, and he's going to say, which one do I save? Right now, again, January 1st, they're talking about non-essential travel to other countries, and I'm just banging my head. I'm like, fuck, I'm a month away from Indus. I'm two months away from TPF. Oh. Yeah, and same here. Like, we are now breaking all kinds of records for the daily amounts of cases. So I think New South Wales peaked at about 21,000 new cases. I remember we used to go into a panic when there was 100 new cases, and then there was 21,000 a couple of days ago, and, you know, Victoria, where I am, is 7,500 or something like that. So we're crazy, but it's Omicron, so people are like, you're just going to have a bit of a cough, whatever, get over it. But I don't know what that's going to mean for travel. We don't know, indeed. So you and Ryan, I think you were at Ryan's for a little Christmas gathering. I don't think it was too large or whatever, but certainly nice to see people after the long lockdown that you had. It was great to hear you guys on Head to Head. I made some other notes about Head to Head. Hold on a second. Okay, here we go. I made some other notes here. I had to Google the word prolapse. I do not recommend that. Too late for me. Thanks for that. You're welcome. It's kind of one of those things you can't unsee. Well, if you had a good look, you would have seen it in the image that was posted. Oh, really? I'm totally looking right now. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'm not even going to cut this out. This is how long it takes you to look. It's in the image? Yep. it's subtle. Is it in the picture? Yep. Okay, I can't zoom in though. No, I know, and I blurred it out. Are you fucking serious? No, but I've got to tell you, I've got to tell you, of all the people that was going to get it, Dr. Pin messaged me straight away and said, well done on the image, putting prolapse in it. It's a god tear. So, he knew. He knows what one looks like. Oh my, oh my God, you're a bad person. It's head to head, you know. It's not meant to be safe. It's meant to be just shits and giggles. It was so funny and you were so hammered. I got there. Like I said, I was about halfway into the show, about half an hour into the show and just went, it's not a bit serious. I need to get drunk and I did. So what else did I learn from the show? You wouldn't have learned much from the show. No. Hula hooping? Who mentioned hula hooping? Professional hula hooping? Is there? You were drunk because Ryan was talking about he met a friend that was, you know, he was talking about his pinball hobby. And I think her hobby, which was expensive, was hula hooping. Yep, I did hear that. That's a thing. Yeah. Yep. Speaking of Christmas episodes, my Christmas, I guess we'll go into what happened in the last two-week segment. I got Anne a gift because Anne showed me a video that she made visiting a friend down the street. This friend has a garage, and in the garage there's, I think there's a stripper pole. I think there, but anyway, it's just a garage, but there happens to be a pole there. And she's going to show me this video, and I'm like, what are you about to show me? And she goes, oh, we just got together, and I tried something. I'm like, oh, no, it had nothing to do with the stripper pole. Don't you worry. Okay. Okay. She threw on some tap dance shoes. She goes, I used to tap dance when I was like 10. And she does this little shuffle. This is like back in August. And to me, it was cute as hell. And I'm like, I've got to make a note. Christmas, get Ann tap dance shoes. Greatest gift ever. Really? For her. For who? For me. Everybody involved just to watch my wife do a couple little shuffles on a piece of plywood. Wow. It's going one step further. I'm not just going to get tap dance shoes. Totally tap dance lessons. No. Yes. Yes. I am so glad I'm not in Canada. You love Anne. I love her, but not that much. She's planning on an Easter recital. Oh, okay. Okay. Make sure you broadcast it. Let's do a Zoom call on it. Yeah, I will. I will. Okay. Love it. Wow. Yep. Okay. How was your Christmas? What did you get? Oh, look, I got gin. I know that's going to be a big surprise. But I'll tell you what I did get. A very interesting present I got over the holiday period. And that is I got to watch the new Matrix film. I thought you were going to say a pro-lops documentary. But go ahead. The Matrix. So you and I both have kind of watched it. You're a big, big Matrix fan. It's my number one favorite film. As in, like, you want to see it as a pinball machine kind of thing? Yep, absolutely. It's my favourite movie of all time. The first one I have watched a ridiculous amount of times, and I enjoyed the two original sequels. Okay. We can't spoil anything, right? No, okay. So, guys, well, we can. Not too much, but if you haven't seen The Matrix, you're going to watch The Matrix, you've got a vested interest in it, skip forward about five minutes, because we're going to talk about Matrix Resurrection. Five minutes. Let's talk about it. Go. Okay. Okay. Starting now. What a shit film. It's fucking terrible. Fucking dead. Oh, my God. So we spoke this morning. Or was it? Yeah, we spoke this morning. I watched it yesterday. After about, I think, 45 minutes, I had to turn it off. It was making me so angry. Yeah. Because what it was doing was taking a massive, I mean, massive steaming green turd with toxic bits of corn in it all over the original movie. It was using clips from the original movie. It was trying to retell the original movie. It had new actors that were just terrible actors, just really badly cast. And we've already accepted that Keanu Reeves is a terrible actor. You know, if any line in the dialogue is more than two sentences, hey, come on. The director's like, cut, cut, cut. You know the rule. Keanu only gets one line at a time. He can't do more than one line. He can't do monologues. Keep it simple. Yeah, the director would be like, oh my God, you absolutely freaking nailed that scene. Can we do it again, but not so good, please? Because you take people out. Hey, here's another thing, too. You know that look you've been doing for the last three movies in the John Wick? Even though that looks nothing like Neo, can you do that for this movie? Maybe it'll help. Can you go John Wick on it? Shave the fucking beard. Oh. Stop it. Anyway, so that was yesterday, 45 minutes into it. For those people, we're spoiling it, but you've got, it's like the first film in that the first part's kind of in the Matrix and then it's outside the Matrix. When it got outside the Matrix, that's when I stopped. That's when I went, you know what? You've actually ruined the Matrix for me. I am so angry at this movie. I don't want to listen. I don't want to watch it again. But today I got up and I thought, you know what? It's the Matrix. I've got to at least see it to the end. And before you get to that, you and I did the exact same thing unknowingly. My son and I started watching it. An hour into it, we're like, this is the worst fucking movie ever. And we stopped. And I still have not watched the end. I don't think I'm going to. So what you're going to say doesn't spoil it for me. I don't care. Once I saw Jada Pinkett Smith in that old makeup and stuff, and I just thought, this is fucking cheesy. No, okay. I was done. What's the second half? Oh, really? Yeah, second half was much better than the first. Much better. Okay. But I'm going to tell you this. Again, spoiler, guys. I think we've probably got about a minute to go. Neil Patrick Harris, worst casting ever. Didn't make sense. None. No, you can't have somebody so iconic in other roles trying to be... No, it just didn't work. It didn't work. The whole thing didn't work. But in the end, I would give it a B-. It got better? It got better. It did get better. But, and I was talking to Stu Thornton, you know, that I work with, who was saved, it's a pointless movie. It does nothing to move the story forward. It does nothing to entertain us more than the original or the sequels. It is a pointless exercise. Yeah, correct. I've said it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know why it exists. It is. So here's the pinball Are you ready? Okay, we're back to pinball No more movie stuff here Here's the pinball segue, right? Because people have been talking about a Matrix pin for a long time And I know that a Matrix pin, they toyed with it originally But it's a risk It's a risk when you do movies like this So had somebody been doing a Matrix game based on this movie Would have lost their money There you go, said it I would imagine they would do a Matrix movie based on the whole catalog. I hope so. I would hope so. But this is what I'm saying. I think this movie has sullied the franchise. Do you know what would be great for the Matrix? At the start of the game, you pick a red pill or you pick a blue pill. If you pick a red pill, which one was the one that got you into the Matrix? Red. Okay, so the blue pill is just the normal life. You go on as nothing happened. Is that what it means? Yeah, correct. So when you pick the blue pill, the game is pretty easy code. But when you pick the red code, you've got to buy a new additional code that comes after. You can't play it. So I think that would be great if you had two different coders. One does the blue and one does the red. That's actually quite an interesting idea. It is interesting. Yeah. Sorry, you can't play the red until you buy the premium code. Yep, correct. Oh, boy. Hearing Steven Bowden again talk about his code and his suggestions, his rules, I'm excited by it. I mean, he just knows so much. And I know you're nervous a little bit. Maybe not. I think you are about when Fathom comes out, which is very soon. I think you are smart enough to know what people want. You've been listening for years and years. You're experienced as a player yourself. Yeah, but as I was saying on head-to-head, It's great to have it all theory. Execution is the challenge, and we're getting through it. And as I've sort of said, I want it to convey an emotion or a feeling, and if it does, success, and that's all in the execution. Marty, I can't think of one machine that one code came out. The code wasn't revised. Can you help me? Think of a game in the last three years. I would say the game that I feel has probably been the most complete when it came out was probably Iron Maiden Hmm Because they really didn't add much to it, did they? There was no modes or anything, it just, it was fine as it came out of the box Oh, it was fine, but the game that you play now is much different than the game then No, not really No? No, not for Iron Maiden No, they did some tweaks, but it was pretty close to 1.0 when it came out It was probably the most complete Stone Game in recent years, I would say. I'm trying to remember what the original Fear of the Dark was. I know it had the Keith animations, but I thought there was something different about it. It was pretty complete. Jurassic Park was also pretty complete. So there's two. So you want that kind of level? I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you come up with something, and whatever code it is, whatever number, percentage, and you have to make some changes, changes are good. That's fine. It might be score balancing. It might be bug fixes. It might be an enhancement here and there. That's okay. And that's fine for you to say, thank you, but that's not the standard I'm using for the product that I want to put out there. I will probably rely on that, but it's not what I'm thinking. It's like, oh, well, it doesn't really matter. No, no, no, to me, it matters. This has been a long show. Yeah, it has. Are we doing too many shows? No. Who said that? Well, I want names. Who said it? I'm just wondering if doing less is actually more. Oh, okay. If we go to once a month, is that what's going to get us a trippy nomination? Is that what I'm hearing? I don't know what the listener wants. I have no idea. I really am lost. So the two people listening, if you could send us an email, which I think, I don't know for sure, is finalroundpinball at gmail.com. Am I correct? There it is. Got it. Yeah? Well done. What's our Instagram? I'll tell you the Facebook. You just look under Final Round Pinball. Um, hold on. I'm not looking. I'm not. What was the one you wanted? Instagram. It was Instagram you wanted, you said? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Instagram is the one that I want, if you don't want to delay us any further. No, no, no. I'm sorry. Again, we have a choice of Twitter or Instagram. Which one? It's Instagram. Okay. Or maybe Twitter. Go Twitter now. Fuck. Uh. Uh. It's Final Round Pinball Podcast on Instagram, and it's at Final Round Pin on Twitter. You took the words right out of my mouth. No, I bet I did. Okay We'll do this I'm not even going to say We're going to do it in two weeks We'll see We'll do whatever You know what Whatever Doesn't matter Doesn't matter We're going rogue No one cares No gives a shit Much like the prolapse episode A couple of butt hurt announcers here Oh funny funny funny funny Hilarious I love it. You and Ryan do that. Okay. Hey, buddy. We'll talk again and maybe we'll turn on the mics. Maybe we won't. We'll see. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We might speak to you in a fortnight. We might not. We might never talk again. Correct. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-14 | Item ID: 0683dc33-5d0c-4a61-bb46-c9a576418841*