# Ep 41: Flying High **Source:** Final Round Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2021-08-29 **Duration:** 84m 57s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.finalroundpinball.com/final-round-pinball-podcast-ep-41-flying-high/ --- ## Analysis Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins discuss the collapse of Deep Root Pinball following an SEC filing revelation, addressing community criticism of Jeff's media approach and interviewing practices. The episode covers the broader implications for affected employees, Deep Root's failed promises, and the hosts' commitment to more opinionated podcast content going forward, interspersed with humor and unverified industry rumors. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Robert Mueller used Deep Root investor funds for personal expenses including weddings, Hawaiian condo, and children's education — _Jeff Teolis references SEC filing details discussed on Pinside_ - [HIGH] Robert Mueller withdrew approximately $1.5 million in wages over 4-5 years from Deep Root — _Jeff Teolis cites SEC filing figures_ - [MEDIUM] Robert Mueller offered refunds to Deep Root pre-order customers, and only three people accepted — _Jeff Teolis states 'apparently' three people took the offer, uncertainty about whether refunds went through_ - [MEDIUM] Deep Root promised $250,000-$750,000 monthly spending at some point — _Ryan C. recalls announcement but notes uncertainty about exact figure_ - [MEDIUM] Someone (possibly Iceman) from Pinside drove to Deep Root facilities to count employee cars as an indicator of company health — _Jeff Teolis recalls community surveillance practice due to lack of official communication_ - [HIGH] David Thiel was part of Deep Root Pinball project — _Jeff Teolis mentions working with David Thiel on Deep Root and praises him as hall of famer_ - [HIGH] Deep Root's initial investment fund was $58 million — _Jeff Teolis cites SEC filing figure_ - [MEDIUM] Robert Mueller attempted to purchase Spooky Pinball — _Ryan C. references Charlie and Ben Heck discussing the acquisition attempt_ - [MEDIUM] Nate Shivers declined to interview Robert Mueller on his podcast due to duty of care concerns, following John Papadiuk precedent — _Jeff Teolis recalls Nate's reasoning from prior episode_ ### Notable Quotes > "This is a shit day for pinball. It's a really shit day for pinball. And now I'm in the pinball industry, so it reflects on me in the industry. So I've felt shit all night." > — **Martin Robbins**, early in episode > _Captures emotional impact of Deep Root collapse on industry insiders_ > "None of it made me happy. None of it filled me with joy. None of it made me even feel like there was vindication or justice has been served." > — **Jeff Teolis**, opening discussion > _Clarifies that vindication against Deep Root skeptics was not the speaker's motivation_ > "There are these people, as I said, these mom and pop people who were convinced to invest their retirement money, move it from one fund into this, and they've lost it all. This is the biggest part." > — **Jeff Teolis**, mid-episode > _Distinguishes between pinball pre-order losses and serious securities fraud affecting retirees_ > "I don't think it was at, maybe at one point he got in over his head, and he just like, 'Well, I got access to all this money, and I'm going to start spending on my personal life,' and that's where he really messed up." > — **Ryan C.**, mid-episode > _Speculates on Robert Mueller's motivation shift from legitimate business to personal spending_ > "The older I get, the more I realize that so much of life is derived from ego and the sense of self and someone trying to prove someone wrong... his ego was huge. Maybe the biggest we've seen in the hobby in the time that I've been involved." > — **Ryan C.**, late-middle segment > _Analyzes Robert Mueller's psychological motivation and distinguishes ego as both positive and negative force_ > "I don't feel sorry for us. We knew what the stakes were in both cases. I feel horribly about the people that lost their life savings, perhaps any kind of chance of a future." > — **Jeff Teolis**, response segment > _Clarifies that pinball pre-order losses vs. investment fraud are ethically distinct categories_ > "Today is a fucking dark day for pinball. It really is. It's shit. I feel shit." > — **Jeff Teolis**, closing reflection > _Final emotional assessment of Deep Root's collapse impact on the industry_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Deep Root Pinball | company | Controversial pinball manufacturer that collapsed following SEC filing reveal; had promised indestructible playfields, hired major industry figures, and spent investor money on personal expenses | | Robert Mueller | person | Founder of Deep Root Pinball; made personal use of investor funds; attempted to acquire Spooky Pinball; promised ambitious features like indestructible playfields that were never delivered | | Jeff Teolis | person | Host of Final Round Pinball and Pinball Profile podcasts; criticized on Pinside for allegedly platforming Deep Root without critical scrutiny; defends his interview practice as providing platform, not endorsement | | Martin Robbins | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast; works with Haggis Pinball; expressed emotional distress over Deep Root collapse and its impact on industry reputation | | Ryan C. | person | Guest on Final Round episode; co-host of Head to Head Pinball Podcast; provides critical perspective on Deep Root coverage and media responsibility | | David Thiel | person | Pinball hall of famer who worked on Deep Root project; Jeff Teolis expressed pleasure at working with him despite project's failure | | Steve Bowden | person | Pinball industry figure who worked for Deep Root; Jeff Teolis expressed concern for his future prospects following company collapse | | John Norris | person | Former Gottlieb employee who worked for Deep Root; received second chance at game design that never materialized | | Barry Osler | person | Pinball industry figure involved with Deep Root project; Jeff Teolis expressed positive regard and concern for his future | | Quinn Johnson | person | Pinball industry figure met through Deep Root project; described positively by Jeff Teolis | | Spooky Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer that Robert Mueller attempted to acquire but was rejected | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; supported Jeff Teolis's Pinball Profile World Tour; Robert Mueller claimed he would outship them | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; supported Jeff Teolis's Pinball Profile World Tour | | Haggis Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer where Martin Robbins works; rumored to be developing Centaur remake | | American Pinball | company | Mentioned as Zombie Yeti American Pinball, which emerged as positive outcome from Deep Root collapse | | Pinball Profile World Tour | event | International pinball event supported by Deep Root, Jersey Jack, and Stern; Jeff Teolis saw Razzle machine at Houston show | | Keith Elwin | person | Legendary pinball designer; featured guest on Final Round Podcast; subject of humorous rumors about family legacy and Thunderbirds play | | Nate Shivers | person | Podcast host who declined to interview Robert Mueller due to duty of care; now works with Stern; previously criticized for interviewing John Papadiuk | | Charlie | person | Associated with Spooky Pinball; discussed Robert Mueller's acquisition attempt with Ben Heck | | Ben Heck | person | Associated with Spooky Pinball; discussed Robert Mueller's acquisition attempt with Charlie | | Homepin/Mike | person/company | Pinball manufacturer criticized by Jeff Teolis for ignorant slurs toward community members; Jeff refuses to cover Spinal Tap theme due to Mike's statements | | Scott Larson | person | Host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; noted as being skeptical of Deep Root earlier than most | | Bailey Williams | person | Associated with flipper manufacturing; Haggis allegedly sourced old factory-second flippers from Bailey Williams for cost savings | | Iceman | person | Pinside community member from Texas who tracked Deep Root company health by counting employee cars in parking lot | ### Topics - **Primary:** Deep Root Pinball collapse and SEC filing, Media responsibility and platforming in pinball journalism, Robert Mueller's personal spending and investment fraud, Impact on affected employees and industry figures - **Secondary:** Community sentiment and Pinside discussion, Podcast credibility and editorial approach, Industry rumors and speculation - **Mentioned:** Haggis Pinball upcoming projects ### Sentiment **Negative** (-0.85) — Deep Root collapse dominates tone with pervasive negativity about fraud, investor losses, and industry reputation damage. Emotional distress expressed by hosts. Humor and rumor-mongering used as coping mechanism but underlying sentiment remains dark. Jeff Teolis defends his position but acknowledges the 'shit day for pinball' assessment. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Deep Root Pinball collapsed following SEC filing reveal of investment fraud and misappropriation of investor funds (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis and Ryan C. discuss SEC filing details including $58M fund, $1.5M personal wages, and personal spending on weddings, condos, and children's education - **[industry_signal]** Deep Root collapse negatively impacts pinball industry reputation and affects industry insiders who worked with the company (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins: 'This is a shit day for pinball... it reflects on me in the industry. So I've felt shit all night.' Jeff Teolis: 'Today is a fucking dark day for pinball.' - **[personnel_signal]** Multiple experienced pinball designers and employees (David Thiel, Steve Bowden, John Norris, Barry Osler, Quinn Johnson) were working for Deep Root and are now displaced (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis lists affected individuals and expresses concern for their future employment prospects - **[community_signal]** Community sentiment has shifted from skepticism to active surveillance and vindication; some community members drove to Deep Root facilities to count employee cars (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis references 'Iceman' from Pinside driving to Deep Root parking lot to count cars as health indicator - **[content_signal]** Jeff Teolis criticized on Pinside for allegedly uncritically platforming Deep Root without appropriate skepticism; accused of being 'radio-voiced politician of pinball' and 'shill' (confidence: high) — Detailed Pinside post quoted attacking Jeff's interview practices and media approach - **[regulatory_signal]** SEC filing reveals Deep Root misappropriated investor funds designated for insurance policies and other stated purposes for personal use (confidence: high) — Ryan C.: 'He didn't use the funds... He didn't... actually spend the investment money on what he said he would invest in. So when money started drying up, there wasn't these investments to draw on' - **[machine_intel]** Martin Robbins claims Haggis Pinball is developing a Centaur remake as one of five upcoming games, using found factory-second parts and banana flippers from old stock (confidence: low) — Martin Robbins acknowledges 'I'm sorry. I'm sorry for spoiling it' and jokes about cost-saving measures with old parts - **[market_signal]** Deep Root pre-order losses represent small market impact for individual pinball hobbyists (deposits of $800-$1000) but massive impact for retail investors who lost retirement savings (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis distinguishes: 'I feel horrible for the people that lost their life savings... I don't feel sorry for us [pinball hobbyists]. We knew what the stakes were.' - **[historical_signal]** Deep Root Pinball's problems traced back to Zidware era, suggesting 10+ year history of failed projects under same management (confidence: medium) — Ryan C.: 'This has been going on for 10 years in some way, shape, or form' - **[design_philosophy]** Deep Root made numerous impossible promises (indestructible playfields, shipping more machines than all competitors combined, $250-750K/month spending) that community recognized as unsustainable (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'Everything was a joke to begin with. It was just hidden in this cloud of money.' Ryan C.: 'promised the world... clearly couldn't deliver' - **[content_signal]** Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins commit to becoming more opinionated and starting rumors on Final Round Podcast, marking departure from neutral platforming approach (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'This is a new chapter in pinball podcasting... we are going to be opinionated, and we are going to start rumors' --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. it's player versus player and player versus machine welcome to the final round hey there how you doing it's jeff teolis my name is martin robbins welcome to the five days of final round people podcast five days to edit it at least five days of something else uh you know we we've had a few podcasts we've done 41 of these suckers now plus how many head to heads and pinball profiles and god knows the other guest appearances you and i have done and marty don't you think it's about time like do we really need guests on the show can't we just do aren't we interesting enough i would think that we would be interesting enough however i have listened back to our podcasts and really the guests are the best part of the podcast if i'm honest i'm about to prove you wrong let's bring on our guest here he is you know from head to head Ryan C. G'day, lads. Thanks for making me follow up Keith Elwin again. Like, it's always someone amazing. But yeah, everyone who's listening, sorry, you have to listen to Ryan. But, I mean, during the week, Jeff, you were like, what are we going to talk about, Ryan? You know, what are the show notes? What are some interesting conversations? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm like scraping the bottom of the barrel. And then right before I go to bed last night, the big news, the big, big news. Jeff T. Ellis is an arsehole. Jeff T. Ellis is an arsehole. That's the big news is that you are the worst person in pinball. What did I do? I'm not denying it. I just need to know what I did this time. You misled investors, Jeff, and apologies have been demanded for the collapse of Deep Root Pinball. I don't know. Okay, here we go. By the way, this is the first time we've recorded in seven episodes where Marty is not at Haggis. So it's 11 in the morning, Sunday, at home. So Marty's probably just woken up. Oh, incorrect. He's on his third gin. It's actually true. Considering what's happened overnight, oh, my God, it was popcorn. It was popcorn time. I was literally, it was like I was eating popcorn. Refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh. The pin side thread was blowing up. Where was it, Marty? I'm pretty sure we had just started head-to-head when Deep Root first kind of appeared out of thin air. And it's finally, not finally finished. I'm sure that this story is going to kind of keep on going. And the rabbit hole that we're going to go down to figure out what exactly happened throughout these years with Robert and J-Pop and whatnot. But it's kind of a, not in a positive way, but it's a momentous occasion. We were always saying, how's this going to end? How is this going to be a good thing, a bad thing? And it's finally here. If we're honest, we were very sceptical all the way through head to head, hence why we took the piss out of it quite a lot. We did have a bit of back and forth with Robert Mueller at some stage because we were laughing at the name of the company. But yeah, we never really took it seriously is what I'll say. Okay, I want to kind of embarrassingly say that at one point, I did take it seriously. And I think it's probably the same point that everyone else did when they kind of went on that hiring spree. And you kind of, you know, when they hired that many people, you're like, well, they're going to produce something, surely. And no, they didn't. I mean, I've shipped as many pinball machines as Deep Root has. well yeah and obviously at this stage haggis has shipped more pinball machines so hold on there marty hey marty just take it easy there all right you were always able to hide behind the deep root shield yeah well at least we're not deep root you're next up dude so just take it easy you're the next one on the clock hold on there champ guys so here it is right as i said i was refreshing because it was a dumpster fire. I got sent that link to the SEC very, very early on and then just went straight to Pinside. And it probably would have been about the same time that Pinside got it. And I've got to tell you, as I think most people are in the same boat as me, none of it made me happy. None of it filled me with joy. none of it made me even feel like there was vindication or justice has been served. This is a shit day for pinball. It's a really shit day for pinball. And now I'm in the pinball industry so it reflects on me in the industry. So I've felt shit all night. I'm just letting you know. Thus the drinking at 11 in the morning. Thus why when I knew that we were podcasting I went, you know what? I cannot do this sober. I need to at least be a couple in just to talk about it. So, but back to the original thing. So here is the post word for word about Jeff. Well, we don't actually know it's Jeff Teolas, but you be the judge whether this person is talking about Jeff Teolas. It said, listen to a recent podcast hosted by the radio voiced politician of pinball the man who always takes the easy road to shill and support everything and everyone in pinball. So let's just stop right there. That's Jeff Parsons. It's totally Jeff Parsons. You son of a bitch, Parsons. Yeah. I think there's a couple of things I was thinking. They said the man. I'm not so sure about that. I still identify as a man. For now. Radio voiced? Radio voiced? Yeah, I'll give you that. The politician of pinball? I don't know where that came from. Do you always take the easy road to shill and support everything and everyone in pinball? You're a supporter. I would say you like to give people their moment. Yes. Go on. I'll comment after all this. Okay. He says all the right things, always politically correct, and with a little sugar sprinkled on top for good measure. He was making the case that we don't really know what the status of Deep Root is and let's all just be nice basically and all the while sweeping under the carpet and not mentioning at all on his podcast that Deep Root's Facebook page and LinkedIn and more have been shut down. He owes an apology to this community for his unwavering and unbalanced support of Deep Root, especially since he was a small part of the project. So easy to be the nice guy in the room and just say what everyone likes to hear. Maybe we should celebrate those that discuss issues in the open instead of those like Robert Mueller and others that shill and cover up the truth and just tell you what you'd like to hear. Always careful not to offend. The shills of this industry bear some responsibility. Over to you, Jeff Tolles. What do you want me to say? I'm serious. Like, that I didn't know until, of course, Ryan sends it to me. And I'm like, do I like to promote things in pinball? You bet I do. Do I endorse everything in pinball? No. There's a difference between promoting and endorsing. Any show I do, whether it's Final Round, but probably Pinball Profile, it's not an endorsement. It's a platform for whomever I talk to to talk about their product, their service, their hobby, whatever's on their agenda. And I let them have free will to say whatever the hell they want. What were you going to say, Ryan? I'm glad that I guess that post was made because I felt like after the last final round episode I was going to give you a little bit of shit I mean it's all about timing it was just incredibly bad timing that you were kind of like well you know let's just give them the benefit of the doubt and see what they come up with you know Hey hindsight! Yeah I guess hindsight is yeah of course of course hindsight yes. Dude nobody fucking knew and everyone is and I think in that same episode I said where there's smoke there's fire. Remember me saying that i'm pretty sure about that but we're not there we don't know anything about the sec you fucking don't you can say that of course but you can say that about everything in life jeff like well who knew who knew but you have to use your your best judgment you know as an as an adult to figure out you know what's what you're gonna do what's right and wrong do i do i take the vaccine do i not take the vaccine like you how do you know you could say the same thing about everything in life. So in this case, I don't know, Deep Root just, I mean, from the start, you know, indestructible play field. It's not going to take any pre-order money. Like everything was a joke to begin with. It was just hidden in this cloud of money because he had access to so much money. He was splashing around and people, I guess, you know, money talks and money made people kind of shut up and take him seriously and employ people. And in the end, I don't know, he was buying wedding rings for his second and third wife. I'm trying to find one podcast where I said, you should go buy this game, or you should do this and that. I don't recall that. I just said, I don't know. And yeah, I had a small part in it. It was a pleasure to work with David Thiel. I mean, that is a pinball hall of famer, and I can hardly wait to see what his next thing is, but that was a real thrill for me to do that. So I'm fine with that. I know that when I reached out to Robert for the Pinball Profile World Tour, He, Jersey Jack, and Stern all supported it. I can't thank them enough for that. What am I supposed to do? You know, at the time, that's going back almost two years. We didn't know anything. In fact, in that same Pinball Profile World Tour, we actually saw the Razzle Machine at the Houston show. So I saw a real pinball machine. I saw, you know, certainly not with the pin bar and everything else. I'm like, okay, at least they made something. Anyway, I feel fucking terrible for these seniors that have lost a lot of money. You can laugh all you want, but that's some serious fraud. And those people, how are they going to recoup that money? This is the thing, right? The pinball part of it, which we are exploding about, is such a tiny part of this. There are these people, as I said, these mom and pop people who were convinced, you can shorten that word if you like, convinced to invest their retirement money. move it from one fund into this and they've lost it all this is the biggest part they lose it all because we don't know what the reparations are the fund was you know 58 million dollars is there 50 million dollars left is there 10 million dollars left like how you know the only figures that i saw and i haven't read through the entire document is that you know the wage that i guess robert withdrew which to be honest isn't actually like people you know obviously on pinside and Facebook are like, scam, scam, Ponzi scheme from the beginning. And I don't know enough about the legal term of Ponzi scheme to call it that. But in terms of how much money he withdrew as a wage, you know, $1.5 million over four or five years, that doesn't scream scam to me. That would be the wage for someone who's controlling a company of that size. Obviously, the alarming parts were, you know using the funds for um sending his kid to school um funding weddings funding a hawaiian condo um let's not forget though that he did offer everyone a refund and apparently let's see if it's true three people took him up on the offer so people and i'm not sure if those three refunds went through but i guess it kind of speaks to pinball people just having blind blind faith or Everyone's just like, well, it's worth the risk. I've only put down a $1,000 deposit or whatever it was. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. What sort of deposit was it? You weren't paying for the full machine. It wasn't like full payment. I put down $800. Well, okay. Big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? How much did you put down on a Stern book you never got? Shut up. Stop bringing up my Kickstarter failures. Hey, I'm just saying. No, you're right. I bought something on eBay and spent hundreds of dollars on it, never saw it. My wife, years ago, wanted to buy playoff football tickets, $800. Never saw it. Shit happens. So I don't feel sorry for me or any people that, you know, it's a buyer beware thing. I feel horrible for the actual people that were scammed in the investment, if that was the case. That's a different kettle of fish. What I really feel bad for is people I actually know, like Steven Bowden, who I will say this, I love that man. I think he is a wonderful human being. and I've said to my wife before, you know, if I lived closer to that guy, I would hang out with that guy all the time. We would become, I don't know if Stephen feels this way, but we'd be great friends. Thanks, welcome. Jon Norris, super nice man. I've enjoyed my encounters with Barry Allisler as well. So these are three people I've worked with, working with David Thiel. That was a pleasure too. Just meeting Quinn Johnson, what a neat guy. And I'm sure all of these people I just mentioned will rebound and I hope they do. But for putting money down on a pinball machine, we've all done it i want to circle back quickly to comments jeff on on you and do you think and i'll go back to what i remember nate shivers said a long time ago when he was talking about John Papadiuk and i think what happened was this was when robert mueller was first hanging around and everyone was like hey we got to interview this guy and robert wanted to choose someone a podcast to go on a fair and unbalanced podcast obviously it wasn't head-to-head because we were fucking around way too much, Marty. And it ended up being Eclectic Gamers Podcast with Dennis and Tony. And I think what Nate said in an episode that aired like a week after that was that he was approached for that interview and he decided to turn it down because of what happened with John Papadiuk. And he said that he felt a duty of care that because of his platform and because of how many people listened to him, he wants these companies to prove themselves before he gives them the spotlight. Of course, that's Nate Shivers' view, and Nate Shivers obviously has accomplished a lot in podcasting at that stage, and now he's doing his own thing with Stern. And Nate took a bunch of unnecessary bullshit for when he interviewed John Papadiuk. So he had that kind of ghost on him too, which I think is, again, the same argument I have, is when Nate does an interview with John Papadiuk, it's not an endorsement. When I do an interview with, I had Rob Quinn and Steven on, It's not an endorsement. It's information. No question about it. You know what my second ever pinball profile interview was? John Trudeau. Is that an endorsement? No, he had just come out with Ghostbusters. Do I need to apologize for having him on? I had Ted Nugent on, who's a fucking right-wing possible lunatic. Not because of being right-wing, just because he perhaps is the Motor City Madman. And people were offended about that. And who else have I had on? I've had Andrew Highway on. Should I apologize for that as well? No. These are all people that have pinball connections, and here's their story. You do with it whatever you want. Yeah, I guess the parallel is news programs, current affair programs, if they give people the spotlight, are they responsible for giving somebody the spotlight? Well, so you're saying the news should pick and choose whatever side their beliefs are. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, so that's the problem. I think if news picks and chooses, then it inherently becomes biased. do you think cnn is a little bit biased to the left do you think fox news is a little bit biased to the right yeah so which one do you accept they're both biased yeah yep first of all i'm not in fucking news well you're biased towards being pinball positive like yeah yeah you're right you usually don't poo poo like things you know that are coming out in the community you want to be a supporter of all things pinball and i guess like this is a stab at saying well you know you should have an opinion but as i said opinions can go both ways and you can be on the you know in hindsight 2020 you can be on the losing side and the winning side and at one point almost everyone kind of said all right let's give let's give deep root a chance maybe not every single one maybe not um maybe not scott from lose kids uh pinball podcast but um at at one stage i feel like everyone when they i guess hired yeah Jon Norris and and um Steven Bowden and and the silver lining of this all is that through this absolute mess i mean if you if you want to look at the positives you know we have zombie yeti american pinball exists because of this that's something um steven steven baden will probably get hired somewhere hopefully it's i mean it sucks though like john Jon Norris everyone was just like hey Jon Norris was employed at gottlieb and he never got a chance because gottlieb sucked and they just they said to you you have three months to make a game and you're not allowed to adjust the software afterwards and asked people like, well, these are cool layouts and it has cool things, but like Jon Norris was just plagued by not having the resources to finish his games. And then this was a second chance that didn't come to fruition. Yeah, you know, if I'm going to be careful of who I talk to, I better make sure I check their complete history and make sure they've got no skeletons that I'm not aware of. I better check all their past tweets. I better make sure that they've got a pretty clean record. Oh, there goes the end of pinball profile. Yeah, I'm just going to say this. I don't think, and people are going to come at me for this, but I don't think you need to be defensive, Jeff, even using sarcasm there. You don't. No, Ryan said I need to take a side. So I'm going to take a side right now. I've said my piece. People can hear me. People can reach out to me. There are thousands that do. Good on you there, pinsider behind a keyboard. Good for you. Do you think your stance would be a little bit different, Jeff, you know considering that you know this you know the collapse of deep root has had i still want to say a small ish impact on the pinball community i know it's big because it goes all the way back to you know the zidware days this has been going on for 10 years in some way shape or form but do you think you'd feel a little bit different if say raza pre-orders opened and they sold 2 000 of them and everyone was fully paid and there was you know 20 million dollars lost within the pinball community Or do you still think, you know, is your reaction and your positivity towards, not positivity, but, you know, just, you know, the way you felt about DeepRoot, is it the same depending on the loss of the PMO community? Or is it just you're going to interview people the same way regardless? Well, I'll make it very clear for you. For all those people that lost money with J-Pop and Zidware, I feel bad that you lost that money, but they took the chance. people who did it with Deep Root, whether it's 122 or 2,000, whatever it was, as far as the pinball aspect, that's on them and myself being one of those people. So I don't feel sorry for us. We knew what the stakes were in both cases. I feel horribly about the people that lost their life savings, perhaps any kind of chance of a future. That's scary shit. I'm still going to be able to eat, sleep, have a roof over my head, losing a small amount of money. That's a different story. And that's what drives me nuts. So I'll take a stand right now and say, that sucks. On this program, I've said several times my thoughts of Homepin and Mike who runs that. And I make fun of that because of things that he has said, incredibly ignorant slurs towards certain parts of the community that I just don't tolerate. So I don't have any time of the day for that guy. We joked about him making a Spinal Tap game and how that would kill me because I love that theme. Still couldn't do it because of the things that he has said. But this right now, yeah, this sucks. And I'm feeling for the people that lost major amounts of money, not anybody who bought a pinball machine, not one person, myself included. I am concerned for my friends in Steven Bowden, and I mentioned Barry Osler and Jon Norris and Quinn and all these good people. That's what I feel. my question i guess is about just deep rooting in general like well we're gonna find out soon but what was robert actually trying to do like with all this money that he he managed to get i don think it was a at maybe at one point he got in over his head and he just like well i got access to all this money and i going to start spending on my personal life and that that where he really messed up But in terms of Deep Root in general where he was promising the world indestructible playfields And do you remember he even said like, hey, post some stuff about how like Stern promised this and we'll send you a free t-shirt. And that was the amount of times he promised things that he clearly couldn't deliver and told people flat out. I remember seeing a distributor email when they were first opening up the banks for Rasa orders. I had a distributor send it to me and the wording was so strong it was like we do have manufacturing capabilities and no we will not show it and that was over a year ago um and to this day I kind of always think about that it's like well did he ever have that and why wouldn't he show it and what was what was the plan was the plan to ever make these things or was the plan to for someone to swoop in buy all the designs why did they yeah it's it that's the part that's the missing piece of the puzzle that I would love to love to know Robert's a smart guy clearly he he wasn't I don't think he got into this thing to defraud investors like eventually you're going to get caught um he wanted to be successful but surely he had some kind of plan that wasn't executed properly yeah I mean look I'm no I'm no lawyer or financial expert but he didn't use the funds this is outside of pinball. He didn't use the funds to purchase the insurance policies that he said he was going to. Like he didn't, early on, didn't actually spend the investment money on what he said he would invest in. So when money started drying up, there wasn't these investments to draw on, I think is the problem. So look, my point where, the point of no return for me, I guess, was, I don't know when it was, but remember he came out and made some announcement that he's spending something like, I don't know, it was like $250,000 a month, something like that. It might have even been $750,000. It was a lot of money per month. And that's when I said to myself, how many pinball machines do you have to sell at a particular margin to get that money back. And that was when I thought, this is a passion project. This is not a money-making scheme at all. It was a chance to be a rock star in the bubble. Isn't it? Yeah. The older I get, the more I realize that so much of life is derived from ego and the sense of self and someone trying to prove someone wrong or being like, I want to be this thing. I want people to love me. I want my stamp on the world to be this. And I think we can all agree that regardless of what Robert did, the good things and the bad things, that his ego was huge. Maybe the biggest we've seen in the hobby in the time that I've been involved. And yeah, ego can be a great thing sometimes. Ego can be a really, really bad thing. I know he tried to buy spooky pinball people have been like Charlie and Ben Heck have talked about it but yeah I think he wanted a shortcut into the pinball industry and he didn't get that so he tried to build it from scratch I mean maybe that was that was part of it as well part of it was just like okay this small little Benton, Wisconsin thing won't sell to me so I'm gonna I'm gonna take over the world I'm gonna be bigger than Stern bigger than JTP I'm gonna ship more pinball machines in whatever year it was was it 2019 or 20 I don't know when he promised it than every other pinball manufacturer combined you know like that's that's a crazy statement and we all knew it was crazy but we're all like do it we we want this in the industry we want someone to come in and and shake things up but yeah i i just don't don't know what the end game was after all these years i'm just gonna say it we'll move on today is a fucking dark day for pinball it really is it's shit i feel shit i feel shit this fucking gin is really nice. I decided to go... So who are you drinking, Marty? I'm drinking Malfi, which is an Italian gin, but I decided today to go Blood Orange. So this tastes like alcoholic Fanta. It's beautiful! Is it my responsibility to count cars in the parking lot at Haggis Pinball, since you guys are only 20 minutes from my house? Do I have to report back on the pin side about how many cars are there every day? I know what you're saying with that, because wasn't someone and driving past the Deep Root factory to see how many cars were there or something. Is that right? Yeah, because there was no information coming from Deep Root. So I think it was Iceman who lived in Texas would report back. He would drive to the Deep Root car park, count how many employee cars there were, and then log into Pinside. Like, there are 12 people working today. So something's still going there. No alarm bells yet. So I can do the same thing, Marty, if you want me to be the unbiased hand over for it to make sure everything's above board. Yep. I can count cows. So I think we're going to turn a new leaf. I think our podcast, Marty, and even what you did on Head to Head, and obviously Pinball Profile, today, whatever day this is released, this is a new chapter in pinball podcasting. Everything we've done before was just practice. In fact, it was all garbage and shit. I recommend you don't listen to anything we've ever done before because today, today we are going to be new podcasters, and we are going to be opinionated, and we are going to start rumors. All right, so they may be fake. Who knows? But we're going to throw a bunch out there, and then we're going to circle back when one of these things happens. Remember back in August of 2021 when we said that here? Do you remember that? We just have to scrub through all the bullshit we said, but do you remember the one we said? So let's start the rumors, boys. Ryan, you must have a rumor. What have you heard? Keith Elwin. Do you know in Melbourne or in Australia, the famous football players, people like the diehard supporters love when they have kids because they're like in 16 years time their kid is going to carry the genes of this superstar and they're going to get drafted under the father-son rule is keith selling his sperm just let me fucking tell the story right let me let me go through the story so i was thinking about the other day in in pinball because in in afl football there's like dynasties are created there's like generations and generations and I don't know what it is. Yeah, yeah. More AFL news for all the 90% North Americans listening. Go on. It doesn't matter. I'm sure it happens in baseball and all the other shitty sports that you guys watch. People get drafted to the same thing. Maybe not. In Australia, there's this insane loyalty. I was thinking about it in pinball terms. Who do we have? Who are the amazing designers who have had kids and then their kids have passed on their amazing genes and created other wonderful experiences? And then I was thinking about Keith Elwin because he was on your show And I'm like, has Keith Elwin procreated yet? And he's 50 years old. He could have a 20-year-old out there. We don't know. He's old enough. So that's my rumor. My rumor is that Keith Elwin is hiding a family of pinball superstars. And with the recent departures at Stern, the new wave of, like, the new squad are just going to be all of Keith Elwin's kids. That's a great rumor. Okay. So, by the way, I do have a Keith rumor. Last week he said he didn't play Thunderbirds. Well, we had a sleuth out there who emailed us a picture of Keith playing Thunderbirds at a Northwest show. I sent it to Keith. I said, you're busted. He goes, it must not have been that memorable. I go, don't worry. You're right there. It wasn't. It's funny because I actually showed a lot of people about that. I said, you know what? He's forgiven for not remembering that he played it. Marty, you must have a rumor. And I know you're with Haggis, but you know what? It's okay to throw some shit out there. It's how you get market share. Go. One of the five games that Haggis is doing is Centaur. There, I said it. I said it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for spoiling it. I'm sorry. I know it wasn't obvious, but one of the five is going to be Centaur. With the Centaur 2 cab. Ooh. Ooh. That'd be interesting. They still, as part of their cost-saving measures, they managed to talk to Bailey Williams and found all their factory seconds. They still had some left over from back in the day and that's where this project was stemmed from. The only problem is banana flippers. Yeah, I mean they found some old parts there too. It's a cost they pass the savings on to you yes Centaur will be made. It's a Centaur 2 body with banana flippers, disco fever, but it's going to be great. So quit your bitching. Isn't that crazy? Like I understand the cabinet thing because cabinets, you know quite a significant cost, but making a whole pinball machine around the flippers? You know what I mean? Like, hey, we have all these spare flippers. Let's chuck it on this game. It's going to change the entire game, but hey, it costs, you know, $10,000. So let's get rid of all these flippers. They didn't make a game. Well, Disco Fever was made around those flippers, but Time Warp wasn't. Well, as in Barry Alsler didn't have a say. Did he design the game knowing that the banal flippers were going to be put on there? or was it last minute they're like, hey, look at this giant box of bananas. The prototypes show that it's got normal flippers. Okay. He was then told they had to paint them blue and banana away. I've got one, and this is going to blow the pinball community away, and it's the big boys. We're talking Stern. Did you know, it's no secret, there have been shortages and supply demands. Games are taking longer to be made all across the board, and that includes Stern. Well, because of a certain shortage, and I've got friends at Stern. They want to remain anonymous, okay? But they've told me that Stern are no longer going to be making action buttons on the lock bar. They're gone. The circuitry, all that stuff, it's too much. It adds to the bill of materials. And since there are no more action buttons, Dwight Sullivan has quit immediately. There you go. Spread that pin side. Where's he working, Jeff? Where's he going to go? And easy working with Lyman. Well, I mean, I know we've stopped talking about Deep Root, but how many of these, sorry, how many of these Deep Root employees do you think get a job somewhere else? Because we talk about Steven Bowden a lot, because everyone loves Steven Bowden. Everyone feels sorry for Steven Bowden. Everyone wants to see what Steven Bowden was capable of. Steven Bowden was snapped up very early. He was interviewed number seven, I think, on our podcast, Marty, and we joked about, hey, Deep Rooter, you know, Deep Root probably need a coder. And then it was like two weeks later that he was announced that he got a job for Deep Root. And we're like, awesome, Steve. I think if he wasn't hired at Deep Root, he probably would have had a job somewhere else by now. You know, Stern, you know, since then hired Tim Sexton and Raymond Davidson. And there's that new era, you know, Josh Sharpe kind of works in collaboration with American Pimble as like a consultant, I believe. so you know a lot of people that have pinball smarts are employed you know steve probably would have had a job by now right do you do you guys agree um yes and no because what you remember is before deep root was really he proven as somebody that could do it i think it took a company like deep root to say hey let's take a punt on this guy versus someone like stern or Josie Jack who have got the Lyman Sheets and the Keith Johnsons that are already proven. So I don't know. I'm not as convinced. Do you think someone will pick him up now? Do you think an American football? Because, I mean, he's got his blog and he's described the Raza rules, but no one has really played the final version of Raza enough to say that, hey, we're onto something here. Steven Bowden is an amazing rule designer. We don't know. We're assuming because he's an amazing player and he's a nice guy and he's very passionate about rules. But it still is an unknown, isn't it? Well, it's a complete unknown whether I'm going to do a good rule set for Fathom. What are your thoughts on that? You've only got 250 people to disappoint, Marty. Well, there was only 122 Raza people to disappoint. That's true. Holy shit, you guys sold double the amount of Fathoms than Raza. I know it's an existing license, but I just realized that then. I think Steve will end up working somewhere. And to kind of go back to your last episode, because there were so many kind of nuggets of information in that, it really got me thinking when Keith Elwin mentioned, he mentioned that the old designers, like you would ask him, like, what games do you have? And they're like, what do you mean what games I have? I have no games. And that always confused the shit out of me, because I was like, why are people designing rule sets? why are people designing pinball machines when they aren't super passionate about pinball um and then you go to the other extreme with the keith ellens where like his life has revolved around pinball you know raymond davidson lives and breathes pinball and then there's somewhere in the middle and i think i think it's important maybe not to have both but i think people like keith ellen and raymond davidson are so into pinball that and they're doing an amazing job obviously and then on the other spectrum there's people that that it's just a job to them can you marty and jeff can you kind of see the the benefits of you know either designing games or rule sets the benefit of being in both those different worlds i heard what keith said i was excited when i saw tim sexton zach sharp Keith Elwin raymond davidson all go to stern because i knew of their playing abilities Keith P. Johnson lyman sheets those guys are excellent players too Steve Ritchie certainly knows how to play pinball. He's certainly fascinated by it. So is he a IFPA competitor? No. Dwight Sullivan has a huge gaming background, and Dwight's games are absolutely different than other games, but he has a massive fan base. And some people say things are maybe a little too confusing and this and that, but I like that there's the Dwights on one side, the Limons on the other side, and I'm not saying one's right and one's wrong. I'm just saying the spectrum of differences in their games, I think that's unique. And you've got people like Lonnie D. Ropp, who I've really liked everything he's done in the last few games that he's made. Stranger Things, I have a Guardians, Aerosmith's a lot of fun. They're not simple codes, but you kind of know what you're getting in those codes. So you've got all these unique programmers. Tim Sexton, we're still finding out what he's done with Black Knight, with Zeppelin. Who knows with Raymond? Joe Katz just did a, he's a great player too. Joe Katz just did a whole new update on Willy Wonka. We know what Keith P. Johnson's done. I think we've got a pretty good spectrum of people making rules. And I would like to see Steven Bowden added to that too, because of his playing knowledge and knowing what's really balanced. So I think the playing helps. I don't think it's necessary, though, believe it or not. Here's my thoughts. Thank you very much. I think making pinball is easy. Stop. Pouring gin is easy. I really am. Just drinking up. You can hold on. So making a mediocre pinball is easy. Making a fantastic, memorable pinball is difficult. and that's where I think it's not about how much you play or whether you're an IFPA player it's how much you care about the game that you're making and I think if some people it's just a job for them they can absolutely fill in the blanks paint by numbers whatever it is and you'll have a good game it'd be a good game but what sells units is a combination of theme we know that theme is really important a really interesting layout, but really interesting rules. That's what, when you get those three things together, the sum of those is greater than the individual. There you go. Cheers. I think that the interesting rules part is the one that is one of the biggest mysteries still in pinball because we all know it's impossible to make a pinball machine that everyone likes. you can bring out Guns N' Roses and 80% of the pinball community will be like, this is the greatest thing ever. And there'll be 15% of people that say, this is a piece of shit. And they'll know that immediately. And there's 5% of people that'll just be like, ah, I don't know. I don't know yet. It's becoming more and more apparent to me. And you've said it a million times, Marty, it's not ones and zeros. It's very blurred lines between like, what makes a good pinball machine? And through me renting pinball machines, I really, like every time I pick up a pinball machine, I basically interview the person about what they liked about the pinball machine and what they didn't like. And these are people all with varying degrees of skill. And, you know, some people have owned pinball machines before. Some people have been playing since, you know, 30 years previous. Some people are brand new. And the variety of answers I get for the same pinball machine is crazy. And sometimes I think there's a game that everyone likes. And it's close. Like, ACDC is, like, one of the closest. but there'll be games like Guardians that, you know, 10 people will love in a row, and then someone will message me after a couple of days and say, come and pick it up, like, I fucking hate this machine, and you can't, you try to get them to put it into words, and they can't, but it's just sometimes certain machines don't click with people. And, yeah, I mean, you're designing rule sets and pinball machines, Marty, and I guess what I was trying to get at before is, I think you have to kind of take a zoomed-out approach. I'm not an expert, but I feel like you can't design pinball machines for the elite pinball players and say, okay, this is some crazy complex rule set that the people that really understand pinball will enjoy and they'll have in their collection forever. And what I'm going to do is, obviously, there's another group of people, the 99% of pinball players. I'm going to give them Little Deadpool, and I'm going to give them an easy multiball, and that'll appease them. I think that the answer is somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of players that are good at pinball, but they don't want something too simple. They don't want something too hard. They need an achievable kind of rule set in the middle. And that's what I think is maybe missing a little bit with the kind of elite players that are creating pinball machines. Well, I would also say that the skills overall, I believe, of all pinball players in the world has improved significantly, let's say over the last five years. So that whole make it simple and then have this for the seasoned player. Do you know what? Ryan, you and I had this conversation on Head to Head, I'm sure of it. We were talking about the person in the middle because that person in the middle is now probably the majority of the pinball community. You've got your entry-level casual players, there's a few of them you've got your high-end ifpa players there's a few of them but the vast majority of people sit in that middle area where they've actually got better skills than they used to because there's obviously a lot of youtube clips and there's tournaments and and just skills have improved so you've got games where they cater for the casual player and the top end but it's really that middle zone that is the majority of players and i will tell you that's who I'm targeting. There is stuff for the entry level and there is stuff for the high end, but the majority of the rule sets that I'm creating are based around the middle. That big zone right in the middle, which is just above casual and just below tournament player. Yeah. That's the zone money. That's the sweet spot. That's the zone! We'll see. When do I get my fathom? When you get it. I'll be counting cars until I get it. it's okay it's also it's also interesting and i'd love your opinion on this jeff you know we listened to the um i'm sure if you heard at the uh ken cromwell's jjp podcast with sorry the guy who coded uh willie wonka Joe Katz so we listened to the podcast with uh ken cromwell jjp's podcast with Joe Katz and he talked about making willie wonka more accessible and he gave an amazing explanation about why and I really appreciated it but it also got, not a little bit angry, but when I heard him say, well it wasn't until I kind of sat there and I had the machine and I was watching my cousins or whoever it was play the game that I thought, you know, well I need to make this more accessible I know Wonka came out was it two years ago And I guess my thought was like when is it too late to update a pinball machine to change everyone opinion on it And you guys touched on it last week where it like well you only remember it in its final state you know, when history kind of looks back on things. But I'm wondering why it took so long for people to, like, for the coder to realize that people weren't feeling like they were progressing through the game two years on. Isn't that stuff meant to happen kind of during development, testing, user testing? I don't think it's ever too late to make a change if you can make it better. I don't think he made a mistake with his original code, but if he feels it could have been changed if he felt there was something that was wrong, it's never too late to correct that, is it? No, obviously not. It's all appreciated. It's also weird in the sense that they're not making that machine. So I don't know. I'm always amazed when I see something like that or when Lyman gave us the code out of nowhere for ACDC long after that game had been sold, out of production, out of vault even, and it was really just for somebody who already owned it. Sturm wasn't going to make a dime on that, so I thought that was neat. Has there ever been a moment in history where there has been a code update that has completely changed a game? We talk about Walking Dead, that big update that happened, it enhanced the game, but fundamentally the rules were still the same. Big moment for me, Star Trek, when all the medals and they had the away missions and... I bought my machine like two weeks after that update, so I actually never experienced the shit version of Star Trek. No, okay, the shit version... What about Ghostbusters and Game of Thrones? But they're just enhancements. Even Game of Thrones is still just an enhancement. The rules framework itself is the same, but I'm just wondering whether there has been, like where the company's gone fuck that's a shit code we really need to rethink this and completely change it has that ever happened gottlieb never said that stop that i don't think there has it depends on who's playing the game i guess i mean i i haven't played the new wonka rule set but the way that joe described it was that everything everything is kind of more like if you went into the settings and adjusted all the settings to not easier but kind of closer to the start button where like hey you need this many things to get a golden ticket you need this like you adjust everything down now the default settings are everything is kind of slightly easier so just more things will happen so i think that's good the problem i have with wonka is it just feels from when you hit the start button it's chopping wood so i think that he probably recognized that and went a little less chopping wood let's get some stuff happening earlier on. Yeah. I don't know. Some people still hate the layout. Like, you know, give that to a person new in pinball and they're launching the ball potentially straight down the middle and then the ball automatically... Like, people give so much shit to Steve Ritchie's Star Wars for, like, dunking that three-target banker going down the left out lane. Guess what? Fucking Wonka is the same thing except it's more embarrassing because the ball disappears. You don't see where it goes. It might go straight down the middle. It might give a couple of pop up the hips and then go straight down the middle it's actually more confusing to people that play pinball i hate hate hate that design it is so bad for entry-level people in pinball like we're already fighting like almost a losing battle with you know people that are using pinball and trying to convince them hey this is a cool thing come come play willy wonka like how do you do it okay just look like you know launch this little ball here and they do and they feel cheated they're like well this is like this is like gambling what was roger sharp doing in 1977 or whatever it was, proving that this is a game of skill, this is bullshit. I hope in his next game he doesn't do something like that. And I'm an operator. I want to make money. I don't want people to have a shit time like that. While we're talking about designs, can I ask you both about this? And you mentioned Star Wars, and it's one of those games that has pop bumpers that have no effect on the game. You're never in danger when it goes in the pops. Maybe you get lucky and it goes back up and down the stupid lanes at the top that really don't matter. Pop bumpers. What are they good for? Absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. Aren't they supposed to put the ball in peril? There are a lot of games that... What was the other game I just played? Led Zeppelin. Simpsons Pinball Party. They're the only two games that I remember that you've got in your collection. No, Led Zeppelin. Those pop bumpers mean nothing to the game. They're all hidden behind the three bank. So your ball's never being thrown there. I disagree with you about Simpsons, or think of Twilight Zone. Those pops can put you in danger. Simpsons kind of, maybe. Certainly Walking Dead. But if pops aren't putting the ball in danger, why do you have them? I can't remember whether we did an interview with Head to Head. It might have been George Gomez. The purpose of pops is to give people more game time so they feel like they're enjoying the game. That's the sole purpose of pop bumpers. It was George Gomez in the Pinball 2000 documentary thing when they had that amazing diagram of the ball on Revenge from Mars launches into the pop bumpers. And it's the same reason why usually in most games, like say in Metallica, you can hold down the left flipper, you can launch the ball, and you can go for the super skill shot. But if you lose the ball in that ball save period, it'll already launch a ball out, but it forces it to go into the pop bumpers. It's like a, hey, you fucked up and you lost the ball within the first 10 seconds. I'm at least going to let the ball ding around a little bit before you lose it again. I know not all games do that. Like Deadpool auto-launches the ball all the way around, like opens up the diverter gate. It's all to give like people, we talked about ego before. Ego exists in people machines as well. Some people like to get beaten to death. Some people love, they love The Walking Dead. Some people despise it because it doesn't feed their ego. They want to feel like they're achieving things. and it's all about the human psychology, I think, of what someone needs when they press the start button. Okay, Metallica and Game of Thrones, they don't put the ball in peril, but they have that kind of slot machine thing where you get rewards for how many times you hit the pops. If there was a switch hit mode and going into the pops was great, especially if there wasn't a spinner, that would make sense. But when they just do nothing, and Star Wars is a perfect example. Are you sure it does nothing in Led Zeppelin? Surely it does. I mean, I haven't played it, but surely it's a newer game. I don't think it does. I think Stern are getting very good at doing that. Like the Iron Maiden, you need to hit a certain amount of pops. The spinners on Keith Elwin games all mean a lot. Like he is the spinner. Yeah, and sometimes you'll get super pops on games. Like if you think of the old Guns N' Roses game where you got to select your skill shot, you always picked the ones that were super jets or pops or whatever they called them because there were two million a shot, and then you'd get it back up there. That's how you would do well, especially in match play games. but if there's no switch hit value, if you can't increase the pops to a value of some kind of significance, and they're not putting the ball in peril, is that really why they're there? Is that really what George Gomez is thinking, to give you the illusion of more ball time? Yep. That's what it is. Weak. I'm not saying George Gomez is weak. I'm just saying, give me some danger there, or give me some value. But I think that they know. Star Wars is terrible. Terrible. Yeah, of course. But they know what the sweet spot is for people to feel that they've done enough in a ball and then drain and not walk away from the game. Surely they'd know. I think people often put spinners and pop bumpers in a similar kind of category. But I think you can create better rules for spinners because usually you have a direct, you know, like I can hit this spinner perfectly and it's going to spin 20 times. So if the person hits the shot correctly, they're going to get 20 times its value or whatever the mode is. Whereas with pop bumpers, if you hit a shot and the ball goes into the pops, you could hit it. Like if you're a played creature and you're trying to get the super jackpot and you get up the middle and you get one pop hit, and you're like, for fuck's sake. Those are worthwhile pops, though. That's a great use of pop bumpers. What I'm saying, though, Jeff, is that there's a lot more luck involved with pop bumpers because the ball could get stuck in there forever. the ball could just, you know, and obviously if you do the Josh Sharpe analogy of like, well, if you hit the shot up there a thousand times, it's going to average out to like, you know, whatever. But in a situation where you need to get certain pop bumper hits, sometimes I feel like pop bumpers aren't there because, you know, you know, like Acid Rain in Dialed In, there's a lot of games where you need some pop bumper action and you just don't get it. I know you talked about it. I like when who was it? Was it Ghostbusters that reintroduced it and then obviously Game of Thrones where the pop bumpers do the reels. I think we first saw it in Whodunit. Is that right? Where the pops sort of change the reels. I like that. I think that makes pop bumpers really interesting. You're all describing when pop bumpers do something. When they don't do anything, I don't see the point. I mean, No Fear is a great game. But spinners are like that too. You know, when you hit enough spinners that you level up the spinner. Okay, big fucking whoop. You know, Ryan and I, You remember, Ryan, I had a big rant about spinners one day. Yeah, I mean, games like Star Trek, they're almost, yeah, it's just a big waste. But I said, I think game designers like Keith Elwin are really integrating them well. You know, like the Hulk spinner. That's probably the greatest moment that I like in Avengers is when you have to smash that spinner. And I think it'll just kind of get better. I mean, there's a reason why people love spinners. They're satisfying. People like drop targets because you hit something, it's physical, it goes down. people like spinning things. I'm looking at the clock here. It's part of our commitment. We have to do our sponsor of the week in the first hour of every show or else we don't get paid. So Ryan, shut up for a second here. It's time for our sponsor of the week. Hi, my name is Martin Robbins, star of Houdini and dozens of viewers on Melbourne Silver Bowl on Twitch. And I'm Jeff Teolas. You might remember me from my work on a pinball teaser for a machine that never was made. But most recently, I was the winner of the Tournament in Australia. Together we host the Final Round Pinball Podcast, and I'm proud to say we are one of the top ten podcasts on the Pinball Network. We've entertained the masses for years, but there's been a big void. Until now. That's why we are taking orders right now for the first ever Final Round Pinball Podcast, Pinball Machine. We will produce our very own machine in our special five years of deep development. And as a bonus, deluxe edition buyers will get a special tour of our facility. Is there a factory? No, no. But you'll spend time in the guest house of our Hawaii resort. And here's the great news. We don't want any of your money right now. 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Well, get in line, because I'm sure it's going to be huge. But we will take the credit card numbers now, and you have no worries, all right? Money's safe, eh, Marty? Absolutely. You will definitely get your game. Yeah, no question about it. Well, I'm glad you're buying one, Ryan, because I know that it's not like you buy a new unboxed machine like Marty and I. We certainly cherish that, and we like to have our DNA on the games that we buy, whereas you just buy pinball machines, and you whore them out to the next John and rent them out or throw them into some arcade. There's no real sentimental value for that. So will you be keeping this one, or what is your thought about buying new games? They happen so often. I'm still confused by you saying that you put your dignity on bingo machines In what way? Is that the picture you sent me where you printed out a picture of Keith Elwin And there was all that like I don't know what the substance was on there but How many new in box games have you ordered now Ryan? Is it like two? Maybe one? As in like ordered and I haven't received? Or ordered ever? No that you bought new in box Because you normally My experience with you is that you normally get them used. Is that right? Yeah. I guess ever since I started putting machines on location a little bit more aggressively, I've bought Jurassic Park new, I guess. I bought Avengers new, but that was for myself. I bought two Mandalorians, and I still haven't got them. I know by the time I get them, Godzilla will be out, and I'll be like, well, do I really want Mandalorian? Yeah, I get caught up in the whole hype train as much as everyone else. Zach Sharp is doing a very good job at controlling my buying habits. So congratulations to you, Zach. Do you feel that now buying a new inbox is a good experience or would you rather go back to a known commodity when it comes to machines? I mean, in a perfect world, yeah, I would love to be able to buy secondhand machines. You know, when me and you, Molly, got into pinball at the level we did, people would buy every new in-box game, the suckers, and then six months later they would sell the machine for $1,000 or $2,000 less. That doesn't exist anymore. And you could haggle the person down, you could get a friend if it's a different state to go and check out the machine. So I definitely, I mean, it definitely doesn't suit the buyer in this sense that you have to buy everything sight unseen. I feel like a bit of a sucker and a massive hypocrite when I say don't buy a machine before you play it. But the economies of buying a people machine suits that buying behavior. And that's the confidence that I have with buying the next Stern game and being able to sell it for pretty much what I bought it for. It's a pretty cool hobby to be in. But yeah, we all know it has to stop somewhere. It just doesn't seem to be stopping. There is a rumor that the next Stern game is going to go up in price, you know, Godzilla. So I remember putting a hard limit. I'm never going to spend more than $12,000 on a pinball machine. What's Godzilla Alley going to be? Is it going to be $15,500 here? I don't know. It's kind of crazy to actually think about it because you have to buy that pinball machine with post-tax dollars. So how many months of the year do you have to work to be able to afford a Stern Alley? yeah yep yep yep yep yep are you still in the game marty are you gonna buy a godzilla are you gonna buy a new stern machine or are you just out now since you're involved in the industry has it changed your mindset um no being the no you know what being in the industry hasn't changed my mindset being in a new job being in a new house having a new outlook i am not necessarily needing a pinball machine to fill a gap in my cold, cold existence that I have, that I used to have. It's kind of crazy because last year we were in lockdown for so long and like Avengers was almost, not an impulse buy, but it was like, boop, boop, boop. Lockdown alert. Lockdown alert. Ian, we didn't say lockdown once last episode. We were commended on that and you had to bring it up. I just want to point out that was Ryan, not Marty or me. We were not going to mention it. Way to go, fucko. So, lockdown. And by the time I got Avengers and Rick and Morty, it was around the same time and we were out of lockdown. And it was, you talk about mindset, Marty, and buying habits. I felt like I didn't want to be indoors. I felt like I'd been cooped up for 110 days of not leaving my house. So pinball was the last thing that I wanted to play. We're in lockdown again. There's no end in sight here in Australia. I would love to have Mandalorian because I think even if I thought it was an average pinball machine, it would still be a fun experience for me to play that, even though I couldn't play with my friends. But it's been delayed and delayed, and I feel like it's almost going to be the same thing where by the time it arrives, I'm going to be like, I want to go to the beach. I want to go hiking. I want to not be indoors playing pinball. Have you always been... Sorry to just do a bit of a side tangent here. I know where you're going with this. Go ahead. Have you always been an outdoorsy kind of person? because I've seen you deep-throating a banana and out on a mountain and not playing pinball. Have you always been that guy? Well, he likes long walks on the beach and, you know, just spending time with nature and go on. I have always been an outdoors person and, like... Bullshit! No, as in, like, it's deep down inside me, I guess. I like to be on a beach. But it's one of those things where, you know, you get married, get married you have kids you do life and you kind of sometimes get out of touch with with what you really enjoy and i have been enjoying hiking and deep-throating bananas on top of on top of cliffs and hey out of me posting that you can joke about all you want thank you three people three people in the melbourne pinball community contacted me and said hey that looks like fun we should do that together and where do you buy your bananas wait wait so so you're deep-throating a banana and And three people in Melbourne reached out and said, that looks fun. Can we do that together? There you go. All right. So there you go. Anyway, from that, what I was trying to say is that I struggle sometimes with connecting with people in the pinball hobby. Well, not on purpose, but like, you know, you love pinball and I've left it at that. But this is one of the first times where I feel like this little group may have formed. But of course, now we can't do it because of lockdown. But nature, it's good shit. Go out, go out and breathe fresh air. It's great. Speaking of connecting with the pinball community, can we, Marty, you and I have a moment of silence? Rest in peace, Jesse J's Pinball Adventure. Yeah, what's happening there? Just life. Yeah, Jess is busy. Do you have an announcement to make, Jeff, on my behalf? Because I know you control the pinball landscape. He is the podcast godfather. Well, the politics and all that, right? That's right. Yeah, the show's dead. And prove me wrong, because it's been a long freaking time. And you can put the blame on Jessie being busy, but you're the one who started it, dude. You're the one who had the cachet of being the old head-to-head guy, and you brought Jessie along, and it was exciting. And she was interesting to hear her pinball adventures, and now it doesn't happen. And you want to throw her under the bus and say it's because her life has been busy? I blame you. It takes two to tango, Jeff. So, sure. You know, the podcast, I guess, is over. It's fucking dead. Does that mean we're never allowed to do another podcast, Jeff? Nope. I think you need to look up YouTube and see single people tangoing, and you'll see that people tangoing on their own is actually still enjoyable. It does not take too long. Really? I want you to look it up now because I don't know whether it exists. Do you know if it exists or you're making it up? Making it up, of course. I just wanted Ryan to look it up. Another rumour. Tango for one. Single person tangoing is going to be the new trend. Is tangoing a word? Because I can't find any. I don't think it exists. I think it really does take two people to tango, Marty. I'm sure... Tangoing alone? Listen to how flustered Ryan is. He just choked on a banana. Tango solo. Okay, there's a clip on YouTube of a girl called Janine, and she's tangoing alone. I told you. It goes for 32 seconds. Is it good? It's got almost a million hits. Why do it on YouTube? Do it on Twitch. There's got to be. The OnlyFans sites took a hit. Now you're not allowed to have certain sexual content and stuff. What's your obsession with Twitch, Jeff Teolas? I feel like you make fun of it almost every episode, but I feel like deep down inside, you're there at 2 in the morning, with a fucking flashlight and a fleshlight and you just go and have it. Stop. First of all Melbourne Silver Ball isn on at 2 in the morning It not on until about 4 in the morning so you wrong about that And I fine with people making money I not crazy about people exploiting certain things to take advantage of people So that kind of bothers me a little bit, but to each their own. I mean, I know I like to speak on behalf of everyone, but, uh, Hey, whatever tickles your fancy. And especially if you're not getting hurt, that's all good. It wreaks a jealousy, doesn't it, Ryan? It just absolutely wreaks a jealousy. Dude, let's talk streaming for a second here. I think it's safe to say Jack Danger is the godfather of pinball streaming. All right? He is, as the most followers, he's been doing it the longest. Any streamer that I've talked to has always tipped their cap to, you know, Jack kind of showed us how to do it. Here's the kits and all that kind of good stuff. Jack, when he's not streaming a brand-new game, peaks out at a few hundred people. These people that lick microphones on end or sit in a hot tub or do God only knows what, tens of thousands of people. And that just, I'm in awe. I'm in awe, you know? Why are you in awe, Jeff? Like a prostitute probably makes more money than someone who studies like 10 years worth of medicine and is saving people's lives. It's the same thing. I didn't think about it that way. I just, I don't know. I guess I feel bad for Marty, who's a pinball streamer, or anybody who's a pinball streamer. Jack Danger puts a lot out there that five days a week they're putting out original content and they're trying to be creative and do this and that and they actually talk to the people watching. But it's the same with podcasting, Jeff. I mean, we get obviously 10,000 listens a fortnight, which is fantastic that our listeners have gone up so much. But when you think about some of the more mainstream podcasts, they are getting two, three hundred thousand listens to a million listens. It's pinball. You know, if I knew something more interesting than pinball that I could make money out of, I would. But I've got pinball in my blood. That's what I've chosen to do. I understand we are going to get ten thousand listens, not a hundred thousand listens. You avoided my question about the fleshlight. Jeff, do you have a fleshlight? I don't, darn it. But I've got an Amazon wish list and I'm still waiting. Fucking wish list. Hilarious. So, Jesse Jays, you think it's going to happen again? No, I don't think. I want to be proven wrong, by the way. I don't think it's probably not going to happen. But if it does happen, I don't want to feel like, ah, shit, I can't actually do this podcast because Jeff Teolas has declared this dead on my behalf. The power. Oh, wow, I've got so much of it. Should I apologize now for that too? He kept Deep Fruit unnecessarily afloat for five years, and now he's trying to kill Jesse J's Pinball Podcast. That's right. You got it backwards, man. I wish I fucking had that kind of power. Let's be honest. I think I'd like to do good with it, but it would be kind of cool just to, like, you know how much I love to show the boys, like these are superheroes, but they're actually real assholes. And just I get a kick out of the fact that one day Homelander's like, ah, screw you, and just burns everybody. You know, sends down a plane full of passengers. I'm not saying I want that kind of product. What the fuck? You need to talk to your psychologist about that. Talking about streamers and buying new games, I want to talk to Ryan. And Marty, hear what Ryan has to say. I'll make some comments. And then, Marty, you tell us your thought. Because you obviously have a different opinion working at a pinball company. When a brand new game comes out, Ryan, is it important for you to see the stream of gameplay, see pictures of the play field, hear about the rules? The reason I ask is because recently, for whatever reason, there was some streaming, I think it was a reveal, of the two new Spooky games. And again, congratulations to the Spooky Pinball community and the Emery family for selling out these games. We have heard after the stream, there were some people selling their games or their order of where they were. So did the stream help does a stream hurt should you be doing produced videos versus a stream where who knows what can happen what do you think ryan i think give it to zach many zach many the two videos i've watched of him revealing guns and roses and willie wonka are the two gold standards of how to reveal a pinball machine it's like here's a little sizzle reel here's a bit of the story behind it i hate when Stern tell the story about how a pinball machine is made six months after it's made. I'm like, I don't care at this point. I've already got it or people have already got it. It doesn't make me feel good about buying because I've already bought it. The sad state of affairs at the moment with pinball machine purchasing for me is that, yeah, I don't necessarily need it as much. I haven't really watched the Mandalorian pinball stream and I've $25,000 worth of that pinball machine parked away. it's kind of it's kind of sickening all i know is that like if i if i want to get out of it then i should be able to make back pretty much all of that money and that's the that's the state we're in uh we can't wind back the clock and pretend it means something different to me because it doesn't but that's just that's just my opinion that's how it affects me i prefer something produced only because you probably can show many different aspects of the game you can probably script it a little bit better editing all that kind of good stuff i think it can be beneficial to sales but perhaps it can deter some sales. I know theme sells but you still want to see what the play field is going to be like. You still want to know a little bit about the rules. You still want to see what the toys are perhaps. The buying model, Jeff, is completely changed. They're selling pinball machines out before they even officially announce it. The market isn't what it was 10 years ago where you had to prove yourself. Like, okay, Walking Dead's coming out and everyone's like, all right, well, let's wait till the stream comes in and they needed that stream for people to put more orders in. You're right in that it's almost a detrimental effect if the license isn't strong, but everyone's coming out with these home run licenses. I'm not saying Godzilla is a home run license, but it's Keith Elwin. But if they bring it back to the future or something, do you think it matters what the gameplay is going to be like in terms of how many units sell? I don't know. You could just have an amazing... I don't think the Guns N' Roses stream caused anyone or many people to cancel their order. There can be games that present well in both cases, but in terms of moving units, then something highly produced, for sure. I was shocked that some of those people in on those spooky games sold their place based on video. That did shock me. But anyway, let's hear what Marty has to say. I don't care. I actually started tuning out and I started looking at cat videos on my phone. Is it difficult for you to speak because at some point... No, I can tell you what my preference is. My preferences are I just want to see pictures. That's all I want to see. I just want to see a picture. I want to zoom in on the picture. I just want to look at the art. I just want to go, okay, you know what? That looks like a good pinball machine. I'm happy with that. My opinion on that hasn't changed since starting at Haggis. Have you felt that the clientele feels the same way? and that's, have you gotten feedback that that's also what the clients want? No. To be fair, we actually haven't had feedback. Well, except for Ryan banging on about wanting a fucking video all the time. But besides Ryan, no, I mean, people just want a good, solid game. And, you know, Ryan made the point, thanks for bringing it up, fuck me, that, you know, we had already sold them out, so it's fine. And if people want to sell their spots for a fathom, good luck to them. and I think Spooky probably feeling the same is that, sure, sell your spot. We've still sold the machine. It doesn't matter. Okay. Just curious. Yeah. Thanks for bringing it up. Before we finish up today, I'm excited about Cactus Canyon. Do you have a long walk you've got planned or what? It's 20 degrees outside. Winter's ending. I want to enjoy the sun. I don't want to be in a dark room talking to Jeff fucking Teolis and Marty Robbins. I love you guys, but I've got life to do. that's why Jesse J's isn't here yeah it's all apparent now yep yep Cactus Canyon this is exciting because this is the first time correct me if I'm wrong that we're going to get a game from the 90s I know Marty you're doing the same thing with with Fathom from the 80s but this is this is a second chance at finishing the rules making them more complex I guess we'll see it's an exciting thing where are they going to go with with Cactus Canyon because I think people find that game fun to shoot. No, they don't. No? Yeah. I don't want to speak on it until the game comes out, because heaven forbid someone buy it and it happens. You are so butthurt. No. Dude, I'm the one who fucking put the deposit down. So how butthurt do you really think I am? But Ryan, what is your objective opinion on Cactus Canyon? Do you think it's a fantastic game? I haven't played it enough. I'll probably put it on, like, 20 or 30 games on there, but I know it has that 90s feel to it. I don't think the layout is bad. Is the layout bad? Am I missing something? No, the layout's not bad, but it's one of the cookie-cutter games in that it's just a fan layout, and it's not really... That's fine. AFM's a fan layout. No, that's right. But it did it first. Do you need it again? It has the drop targets. It has the little things, three, two, one, draw. It has the moving trains. I want to do nothing. Okay, cool. So someone that's played it 20 to 30 times versus someone that's played it 100,000 times. I'm just... I'm not negating your opinion because it fucking sucks. Yeah, that's why. Isn't it exciting that some guy has been slaving away for however long it's been? And no, not exciting. No, it's not exciting because basically what they're doing is they're finishing the game. Okay. it had a really fun mini wizard mode before the wizard mode anyway. I never felt like there was anything missing. It's just it's kind of like Monster Bash depth of code. I would say less because of the stackability in Monster Bash. Yeah. It's a fun game. I like it but... Yeah, it's fun. Great callouts. There's not a lot to do in it so I'm curious if they've added a lot to do in it. Yeah, that's what I'm... If they just go, look, we've now added a wizard mode, I'll be like, so what? If you've really fleshed out the code and made it a lot deeper, I'd be really excited. Well, that's what I'm excited about, the prospect of the first... But you don't know. You don't know what the depth of code is. Or do you? That's the great thing about it. I'd be excited to almost play a 90s game for the first time, if that makes sense, like a game kind of stuck in the vault. Yeah, but I don't know whether we mentioned it Maybe I mentioned it on the stream I can't remember, I'm too drunk to remember But nostalgia is fleeting You can just go, oh my god This game from the 90s is fantastic Have a couple of games and go, yeah, I'm done Okay, that was fun I play it in League, and I enjoy playing it But that's once every six months And the game is A grind If we were listening to what Keith Elwin was talking about Last week, and the things he doesn't like the repeatable shots and the chopping wood and things like that. I know he was talking a lot about backhanding strength of flippers, being able to go up ramps, and he likes to set them a little different. So it's not so much that, but it is a real chopping wood game. They've really got to change the code for me to go, okay, maybe, but didn't we talk about Big Bang Bar? And they didn't make a lot of those, and it's highly sought after. But is it a great game? I don't know. What do you think? People are going to buy it. CGC makes great games. I know a lot of people that have all the remakes and are really happy with the build, so that's promising. Again, they haven't been made yet, so I do want to point out that I don't want to endorse this until the machines are actually in people's hands. Please do not put your money down. I want to make that very clear. I've turned a new leaf here, all right? It's got to be product and cash exchanging at the exact same time. You've got it all wrong, Jeff. If you support things and then when things start to go wrong, that's when you jump on the other side. You don't just... No, I'm not a hindsight guy. Your problem is you stick to your guns. How dare you not flip-flop. Yeah. Crazy that I was excited about something that I might have had a small part in and a good friend of mine was coding. I feel terrible. Fuck. All right. Well, I guess at the end of the day, Marty's been on one pinball machine. I've been on one pinball machine crossed out, but that's still more than Jeff Teolis. You've been on zero pinball machines. Damn it. Damn it. Yep. So I'm the reigning champion, really, is what's happening. So it sucks to be you. Oh, well. Before we go, can I just do haircut watch? Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. Have you had your hair cut? I did. Did you? I did. There's a good eight inches I took off. Stop. What? I'm pretty sure you didn't have eight inches to begin with. So, just saying. Solid four at best. Not a good day. The water's not too cold. I'm talking about my haircut. I did take about eight inches off the back, and my wife sent my hairdresser a picture of, this is what I want. Out of everything I've ever said on a pinball podcast, this is what I should be apologizing for. This is the most embarrassing thing ever She sent a picture Of Bradley Cooper in A Star is Born When he was Jackson Maine With somewhat long hair and a beard And she goes, I'd like him to look like that I'm like, yeah, fuck who wouldn't I'd marry that guy too Sorry, you're stuck with this old fart Who's a ginger and got a lot of grey By the way, my hairdresser laughed She said, yeah I'm not a miracle worker But I'll do what I can Well maybe it's time for a pinball profile Facebook video update so we can check out your new hair. Oh, you'd like that, wouldn't you? No, no, no, no. When I got the haircut, it looked okay. I thought, ah, it's an in-between. Okay. And she even said when you cut long hair, you kind of get this shitty bob. Yeah. Like, oh, fuck. It's not a good look right now. It's funny. When you cut your hair or you shave or whatever it is, even if you looked good before, like Jeff Diolis, clean shaven. When you have hair for long enough and then after a year you cut it off, you can't help to feel silly or look silly. So I did have a video call with you earlier this week, Jeff, and I thought your hair was quite funny. So I just wanted to add that in there. Oh, thanks, I think. Anyway, we're keeping you from, I assume, a 40-kilometer walk. I'm sure you're going to be camping. Is that part of your thing too? What's the rest of your day going to be once the kids are gone? Well, no, the kids are here, Jeff. This is my precious time that I will somehow go within my five kilometers and just spend some time outdoors. Sun is shining. Do you want me to just be indoors all day, Jeff and Marty? Is that what this is? I don't care where you are. Just wanted a podcast and then we can move on. Okay. Yeah. I was hoping it would be on Jesse J's. No, we have to bring him. All right. We thank Ryan for joining us. I'm sure we'll see him in a few episodes and hopefully maybe some more head to head is that something you guys are going to do yes no maybe so are we going to do a Christmas episode again well I think last year I posted on Facebook and I said if we get like a certain amount of likes we'll do it so I guess we'll just see if people like the status enough for us to do the episode Marty I think that's how it works yeah fair enough I'm alright with that if there's no demand I'm not going to do it no I think it was 69 likes so that is true that is true but if there was a demand, if somebody did want to reach out to us, is there a possibility, is there a way? If they want to send us money for our Final Round Pinball machine, just go to www.finalroundpinballpodcast.com forward slash Jeff Teolis is a money-grubbing scamming bastard. I was going to do www.finalroundpinball.deeprootfans.com Fuck, man, real people, real people lost money. Anyway, you can contact us. If you want to complain about Jeff Teolis in person or under a pseudonym, please email us at finalrampinball at gmail.com. Instagram is finalrampinballpodcast. Facebook is finalrampinball. What else is there? Twitter, finalrampin? All right, thanks, everybody, for listening. We will speak to you again in a couple of weeks. Not a fortnight, a couple of weeks. I like this recording on the Your Sunday, My Saturday night. Yeah, it's good. If it involves more gin, screw this, you being quiet at Haggis bullshit. Oh, we're not done. Not done. We're not done. What? You almost got away, you son of a bitch. Don't you dare think we're done. What? It's time to play our favorite game. Oh, no. I fucking hate this game. I hate this game. I was hoping you'd forget. I was hoping it would be dead, just like Keith. Sadly, Marty, you're on a... You know what? You don't want it to happen anymore? Okay. No more of this boat scenario bullshit. Okay? We're done. You don't like it? You're telling me you don't like it? Are we going to chuck somebody out of a plane now? You're on a plane. There's only one parachute. All right. You've got yours. And here we go. Okay? Stop. You have to pass this off. On one side, your good friend and fellow Haggis employee, Stuart Thornton, the creator of the Reach Around Awards. And on the other side, with his gorgeous long hair, Greg Silby, also a Haggis employee that you have to see tomorrow at work, and they're going to be listening to this podcast. And sadly, one of them is going to be recovering from broken legs at the very least. This is the worst. From falling out of an airplane. This is the worst. Who gets the parachute? Stu or Greg? Can I just do a bit of a sidebar here for just a second? Because last time when we did this, apparently I got accused of sounding like a Canadian. I have never, and I mean never, been more offended. That was boxy. He said apparently I said oot instead of out. I didn't. I said who? I didn't say oot. I was mortally offended by someone saying that I sound a Canadian. Anyway, back to the present day. Stu or Greg? We've known Stu a long time. I wonder if that's going to be a factor. I've known Stu a very long time. Can I throw you a lifeline, Marty? Stu is basically Inspector Gadget, so he would be able to survive the fall with some kind of fucking helicopter that would come out of his head. I think Greg Silby is the one who needs to perish. Do you know what? Thank you. You're right. Greg Silby gets the parachute because what's going to happen is Stu will go into the cockpit, fix the plane, and it won't ever crash. There you go. Well done. Did I mention there's a ticking time bomb on the plane as well? So unfortunately... He will also defuse the bomb. He is that good. What else you got? Did I mention that he's... He's dying of AIDS? Just say them yes. Oh my gosh. I laughed so hard I almost passed out. Anyway, so... He's handcuffed to a senior citizen who gave all their money to Deep Root. Now, who are you saving? Yeah, he would know how to uncuff those cuffs and push that senior out the window. So I still think he's going to be all right. He might use them as cushioning, as padding. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, so anyway. Greg Silby gets the parachute. He needs it is what I'm saying. Let's face it. Good luck at work next week. Thanks, man. Hopefully this will come out on Sunday, so at least I've got a week ahead of me. All right, that's it. Sorry about your luck, Stuart. I don't know how you're going to survive that. Anyway, we will do this again next week. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you. Bye. Thanks, everybody. Speak to you soon. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 0c08f33d-6c12-4936-a499-2e2a8a4c4a99*