# Final Round Pinball Podcast Ep 65: Eligible **Source:** The Pinball Network **Type:** video **Published:** 2023-01-11 **Duration:** 81m 22s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O33VcgkxTX0 --- ## Analysis In Final Round Pinball Podcast Ep 65, hosts Jeff Teolis and Marty discuss the Twippies eligibility controversy, particularly how Haggis Pinball's Fathom remake was excluded from main categories despite having significant changes (new animations, displays, code, callouts), while other remakes like Funhouse 2.0 and Cactus Canyon were included. They also conduct an in-depth review of Godzilla pinball, concluding it's a masterclass in player feedback and accessibility design by Keith Forman, with code by Rick Nagel. They briefly discuss James Bond 007 60th Anniversary Limited Edition, criticizing its $20k+ price and layout design relative to Keith Irwin's talent. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Haggis Pinball's Fathom remake was excluded from Twippies main categories despite having new animations, displays, two LCD screens, complete new rule set, new callouts, and different music. — _Direct discussion of Twippies eligibility rules and specific game comparisons by both hosts examining the official ballot_ - [HIGH] Funhouse 2.0 and Cactus Canyon Remake were included in Twippies categories despite being remakes, while Fathom was excluded despite similar or greater changes. — _Hosts explicitly comparing eligible games against ineligible games on the same ballot_ - [HIGH] Godzilla is designed to be the most accessible game Stern has ever made, with constant player feedback and reward systems regardless of shot success. — _Marty's detailed analysis after extended play, describing it as 'a masterclass in player feedback'_ - [HIGH] Godzilla code was done by Rick Nagel; rules designed by Keith Forman. — _Jeff providing credited designer names during discussion_ - [HIGH] James Bond 007 60th Anniversary Limited Edition costs over $20,000 and represents a 'waste of Keith Irwin's talent.' — _Direct quote from Marty criticizing the game's price-to-quality ratio_ - [HIGH] Godzilla had an hour-long single game session with 3.3 billion score, indicating high accessibility and multiball sustainability. — _Marty describing a streamed gameplay session he conducted on Head to Head_ ### Notable Quotes > "Haggis got hosed. That's not fair." > — **Jeff Teolis**, ~00:10:00 > _Direct statement summarizing the perceived Twippies eligibility inconsistency_ > "Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes have been made... Do you think there's been significant changes made? Yes. 100%." > — **Both hosts discussing Fathom**, ~00:07:00 > _Core of the eligibility dispute, demonstrating the rule violation_ > "It is a masterclass in player feedback. There it is. Masterclass." > — **Marty**, ~00:35:00 > _Defining statement of Godzilla's design philosophy_ > "This game is telling you that you are having a good time. Regardless of what you're doing, everything that you do feeds back something to the player." > — **Marty**, ~00:35:00 > _Core observation about Godzilla's accessibility design strategy_ > "I think Stern have probably gone into this saying, we need to make a game that as many people as possible will enjoy, dial down the difficulty, make the rules a little bit more accessible." > — **Marty**, ~00:45:00 > _Analysis of Stern's apparent design philosophy for Godzilla_ > "What a waste of Keith Irwin's talent. Jack Danger's home pin looks better than this." > — **Marty**, ~01:10:00 > _Harsh criticism of James Bond 007 LE value proposition_ > "I would never own it. I just don't think there's enough light and shade for me. I think it's just on all the time." > — **Marty on Godzilla**, ~00:50:00 > _Marty's honest personal reservation about Godzilla despite praising its design_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Jeff Teolis | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast, pinball content creator and podcaster | | Marty | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast, pinball game code designer/programmer with extensive industry knowledge | | Keith Forman | person | Pinball game designer/rules creator, designed Godzilla rules and criticized for James Bond 007 LE | | Rick Nagel | person | Pinball code programmer, coded Godzilla pinball game | | Keith Irwin | person | Pinball designer criticized for James Bond 007 LE layout and design choices | | Jack Danger | person | Pinball designer/streamer, mentioned for homebrew pinball design superior to Bond LE | | Jerry | person | Sound designer on Godzilla, praised for GI/sound integration work | | Ryan | person | Co-host of Head to Head Pinball podcast, owns Godzilla machine delivered to Marty for review | | Carl | person | Pinball streamer who compared Rush Premium and Godzilla difficulty on IE Pinball stream | | Sierra Leaford | person | Competitive pinball player, nearly won major IFPA pre-Worlds tournament, mentioned as underdog success story | | Bill Mason | person | Competitive pinball player from North Carolina, top leaderboard points leader at Cleepin event | | Walt Wood | person | Competitive pinball player from Colorado, successful at Doctor Who, mentioned as emerging talent | | Trent Augenstein | person | Top competitive pinball player, defeated by Sierra Leaford in tournament finals | | Geek Gamer TV | person | Pinball streamer from Northwest, nominated for streaming awards despite believing they were overlooked | | LazerLose | person | High-volume pinball streamer, overlooked for Twippies nomination despite prolific output | | Final Round Pinball Podcast | organization | Year 4 of podcast, Twippies-nominated show hosted by Jeff Teolis and Marty | | This Week in Pinball | organization | Twippies awards organization, established eligibility rules being discussed | | Twippies | event | Annual pinball industry awards with eligibility rules for remakes being contested | | Godzilla | game | Stern Pinball game, 2022 Twippies Game of the Year winner, subject of detailed review | | Haggis Pinball Fathom | game | Remake released 2022, excluded from Twippies despite significant changes; center of eligibility dispute | | James Bond 007 60th Anniversary Limited Edition | game | Jersey Jack Pinball game, priced $20k+, criticized for layout and design value | ### Topics - **Primary:** Twippies eligibility rules inconsistency, Godzilla pinball design and accessibility, James Bond 007 Limited Edition pricing and value - **Secondary:** Pinball game art direction and playfield design, Competitive pinball tournaments and underdog narratives, Podcast and streamer award recognition, Player feedback and game accessibility mechanics ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.45) — Positive toward Godzilla's design masterclass and accessibility philosophy; frustrated with Twippies eligibility inconsistencies and perceived unfairness to Haggis Fathom; strongly negative toward James Bond 007 LE value proposition and pricing; celebratory about competitive pinball underdog stories ### Signals - **[community_signal]** Twippies eligibility rules applied inconsistently: Haggis Fathom (remake with new animations, displays, LCD screens, rule set, callouts) excluded from main categories, while Funhouse 2.0 and Cactus Canyon Remake (comparable remakes with significant changes) were included (confidence: high) — Hosts systematically comparing official ballot eligibility against stated rule 'Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes have been made' - **[sentiment_shift]** Strong defensive reaction to Godzilla criticism: Marty received significant direct messages from community members defending game quality after public criticism; indicates passionate fanbase and investment in Twippies winner legitimacy (confidence: high) — Marty: 'I have had the most amount of direct messages ever in a week since I dissed Godzilla... so many messages from people saying I'm an idiot' - **[competitive_signal]** Underdog pinball tournament performances increasingly common and exciting; young/new players consistently surprising top-ranked players (Bill Mason at Cleepin, Sierra Leaford in pre-Worlds, Walt Wood in Doctor Who) (confidence: medium) — Multiple tournament narrative examples discussing emerging talent defeating established players - **[design_philosophy]** James Bond 007 playfield criticized as overcrowded with unintegrated theme elements; poor use of playfield canvas with art placement decisions similar to criticized Star Wars approach (confidence: high) — Jeff: 'it's just we got to put all these things on and it's just i'm seeing a million faces and different movie titles... it's just popped on there with no real what like where am i going' - **[design_philosophy]** Godzilla represents Stern's intentional design strategy toward maximum accessibility: constant player rewards, simplified rules, high feedback frequency, designed to appeal to broadest player base rather than depth competitors (confidence: high) — Marty's extended analysis: 'Stern have probably gone into this saying, we need to make a game that as many people as possible will enjoy, dial down the difficulty, make the rules a little bit more accessible' - **[personnel_signal]** Jerry (sound designer) and Rick Nagel (code) credited for Godzilla; Rick Nagel doing code work on premium Stern title, indicating continued core programming role (confidence: high) — Direct attribution: 'Jerry did with the sound' and 'Rick Nagel did the code' - **[market_signal]** James Bond 007 60th Anniversary Limited Edition priced at $19,999+ raises questions about sustainable premium LE pricing strategy, especially when community questions value proposition (confidence: high) — Keith Forman's response joke about $20,000 price; Marty's criticism of waste relative to design quality - **[product_concern]** James Bond 007 60th Anniversary Limited Edition at $20k+ price point criticized as poor value relative to design quality; Jack Danger's homebrew described as superior execution (confidence: high) — Marty: 'What a waste of Keith Irwin's talent. Jack Danger's home pin looks better than this.' --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Welcome to year number four of the final round. Marty, four years now. We're in our fourth. And, Twippy nominated podcast, I'll also add to you. Can you believe it? This is the final round pinball podcast episode something. we'll have to insert a number in. I can't remember. It's very early here. It's really early here. Yeah, we're recording this Friday afternoon for me, Saturday morning for you. Sorry, Marty's not drunk yet. Yet? That will change. It's 8.30 in the morning. Give me at least another 15 minutes. Exactly. Although you're on your way to get a little boozed up. Admit it. That is true. I am. I'm going to Four Pillars for gin tasting. And mm-hmm. Yeah. A must if you're in the Melbourne area, for sure. so nominated you know what sucks is that we were nominated because it would have been so easy to say you know what let's just not do it anymore no one gives a shit now we gotta fucking do it another year now there's expectations my question is um if we're in and we weren't in last year who got knocked out this year because it's always there's always been a bit of controversy around the the podcast well besides the controversy around who always wins the other controversy is around people that don't make it. Like, remember the first year that Loser Kid didn't make it? Everyone was just like, what the fuck? So who did we knock out? And we're sorry because we didn't want to be. I have no idea. I pay so little attention to it, as you know. I don't vote. I don't beg for votes. Hey, you know what? It's nice to be nominated. That's great. That's awesome and cool. But I don't know. I saw somebody post something. this has nothing to do with podcasts. I think it was a streamer. And they're a really good streamer. I think their name is Geek Gamer out of the Northwest. Yeah, Geek Gamer TV, yep. They do a great job. They do a lot of those Northwest championships. And they wrote this long note about being bummed that they weren't nominated for streamers. I have to think there's more streamers than there are podcasts because to me, the streamer that didn't get nominated that just jumped off the chart was LazerLose. Yes, yeah, I noticed that. like nobody streams more than him so volume alone and not to mention how funny he is and you know everything else but we don't know he may have told people not to vote for him like we did well i mentioned that a few years ago to twip i'm like just take me off the fucking ballot i don't care honestly you me we don't care about this and i know it does matter to some people that's great that's awesome fill your boots were you bummed last year we weren't nominated i was like maybe maybe we're not good maybe we should call the day no i again i because we had actively been quite disinterested in the whole process i wasn't surprised and didn't bother me at all and as we've always said you know there was a year and we've been told this that it was so close between head to head and the winner that had we actually asked for votes we would have won but we didn't want to win we still don't want to win so it's just you know it's just a non-thing it's better if we listen it's better if you hate us and we hate you so no one gets hurt that way that's the perfect balance in the world can i can i just i just want to ask you a couple of questions about trippies if i can fuck yeah i'm the guy to ask go ahead okay so i just want to talk to you about the games that are eligible for a trippy okay so and i just want to say that this is the eligibility christ um category this is for the games not all the writing categories this is for the games this Games are eligible if they are shipping or have shipped between the 1st of December 2021 and the 1st of December 2022. Okay. Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes have been made. Okay, there you go. I have no idea where you're going, but I think, like, we have not discussed this. I know exactly what you're about to say. Can I guess? Go, sure. So not on the list this year, even though it was announced in 2022, is Scooby-Doo. Because they didn't produce any machines. Whereas Haggis announced in 2021 that Fathom would come up. You said remakes don't count? That makes no sense. Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes. So Haggis did Fathom in 2021, but didn't actually ship until 2022. so they should be eligible in 2022. Is that where you're going? I'm just guessing. Yeah, so they're not on the list. Okay? Bullshit. Not on the list. Bullshit. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So they're not eligible for the main categories like Game of the Year because it's a remake, effectively, right? Okay. So going by that logic, let's have a look at the nominees for Best Animations and Display. You've got Rush by Stern, Toy Story 4, Jersey Jack, Weird Al's Museum of Natural Hilarity, James Bond 007, Flipper Foxtrot Rhythm Explosion, Super Hoop by Bitronic, Funhouse 2.0, Rudy's Nightmare, and Cactus Canyon Remake by Chicago Gaming. Oh. That's a bit interesting, isn't it? It's not fair. It's not consistent. So let's have a look at Best Sound. Is that what you're getting at? Am I on the right path? Yeah, yeah. Am I guessing correctly? Not there. So Best Sound, you don't have Cactus Canyon there, because, again, it's the like-for-like sound. But you do have Funhaus 2.0, Rudy's Nightmare there. Different call-outs? Different music? I don't know. Best Sound? Yeah, probably. But also, so Best Rules, this is the Lyman F. Sheats Jr. Jr. Award. Funhaus 2.0 is there. There. And yet, Fathom has a completely new rule set. Best animations and display. From what I can remember, Fathom had no animations and displays when it originally came out. So now it's got two LCD screens. Best sound. New callouts. The whole thing. Anyway, there you go. Just what I thought I'd bring up. What are your thoughts, Geoff? You and I did not discuss what we were going to talk about. This is the first I've heard this. and I kind of, when you asked me the question, and you know how I feel about it, I kind of, let me think what Marty could be up. Oh, hey, wait a second. There's a big void here. It's bullshit. There's no other way to put it. It's bullshit. You can't say it's allowed for this machine, which are remakes and new rules, but not this one, which has different sounds, different call-outs. Yeah, Haggis got hosed. That's not fair. I'll say it for you. I'm saying it for you. I'm not saying anything, but what I'm just going to reiterate is I'm saying it for me then. Remakes are eligible for categories in which significant changes have been made. Do you think there's been significant changes made? Yes. 100%. I have no opinion on the matter. Oh come on man. Displays on the apron. A whole new set of code. You've got the different GI. Callouts. Everything sounds. It's night and day different game. For sure. Sure. And so is Funhouse for the exact same reason Funhaus 2 is. Exact same reason. It's a different game. It's similar to Layouts. And another calling out bullshit. Fuck, wasn't Supreme nominated years ago? You want to talk about remakes? Oh, this is a reskin. Right? Sure. Anyway. It's funny because I... I can say to people who ask me, but I don't want to speak on your behalf. But I don't want to speak on your behalf so i am careful not to say i don't give a flying fuck about the twippies or nominations or anything like that because it doesn't mean anything you know what means things are game sales and and enjoyment and things like that that's fine have your popular vote fun thing have a party all that kind of good stuff i do love emoto and uh todd tucky hosting it that's got to be great yeah it's gonna be awesome i'll give you all that stuff that stuff's fine the significance of these things really like how did this fucking thing start it was this week in pinball gathering all this information from pin side and podcasts and streams and bundled it up did a lot of fucking work to do that bundled up every monday jeff now will and then presented it and then thought oh we'll do an award show and now that's the industry standard or or even the pinball awards um the pinball awards at least it's pinball people voting as opposed to anybody with a fucking email address yeah why are you doing this to me you know i don't like talking about you're a dick what's really funny is i was talking to somebody at work about this yesterday and i said this is what i'm gonna say to jeff watch listen for the reaction and you've just done exactly what I thought. But like, couldn't not have scripted this better. And as we said, we've not spoken about this. At the end of the day, we would never win any of these awards at all. They're just not in the numbers that other games like Rush and Toy Story and Bond and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, we weren't going to win any awards, so I'm not really that bothered. Am I a little bit irked that my name, my code's not up there as best rules? Sure, I spent a lot of time on that. Even to be nominated, even to qualify, for sure. It's just to be acknowledged that it exists. Yeah. Anyway, fuck it. Hook, line, and sinker. Let me say this for Haggis. It's bullshit. That game is absolutely gorgeous, and you say you wouldn't win anything. Well, I would say you're a strong candidate it for whatever visuals are in that game, the GI and all that kind of other stuff. I mean, that stuff was legendary. It pops whenever you see Haggis anywhere, whenever you see the Fathom machine. So, you know what? I say this to your original question, who got bumped? If you weren't on the list, it doesn't mean you don't do a good job at a machine. It doesn't mean you don't do a good job as a streamer, as a blogger, as a podcaster. It means nothing. nothing at all it means you probably didn't beg for votes like a lot of people do and it means something great fill your boots i like the acknowledgments when you get marty when people buy your machine and say holy shit this is well put together it's it's fun to play it pops in my uh rec room all that kind of stuff that is worth a million times more than any piece of plastic yeah and and as far as the podcast goes every time someone sends us an email that means more into us and causes a cunt that means more than anything but it genuinely does it actually does you don't care i don't care dennis creasel will send us once in a while the um downloads and all that stuff i guess we do well for whenever we do a show thank you that means something to us that people still listen to us great fine awesome that's all that matters that is all that matters the emails the the back and forth the fun we have with you know i'm about to go to indisc and i'm about to see hundreds and hundreds of people and i guarantee several will come up to me and talk about love what you're doing on final round like what you're doing maybe on pinball profile where's marty that's the stuff that means stuff to me yep yep there you go we're done let's move on from to reason i think it's hilarious you dick i know i'm that sorry i've lost my sheet where this was even on the sheet you popped us in i okay how about the holidays i mean yes do you have a good time i was sick throughout the holidays oh yeah not covered i did so many tests i didn't get covered i think it was one of those have you ever been in a situation where you've worked and worked and worked and worked and worked as soon as you have a day off, your body packs in and you get a cold. That's sort of how it felt. It was sort of like my body just going, you know what? You've done so well. You know what? We're really proud. Here's a round of applause. You've held up well. But now that you've got 10 days off, how about we just fuck you over so then you can go back to work? And that's what happened. I was exhausted. I was fatigued. I got a cold. But then when I went back to work, I was like, yeah, I'm refreshed. Good. well you've been working your butt off and that's part of the reason it's me being away it's you working so much uh that's why we have not been as frequent as possible we're doing pretty good three in a row here back to back to back not bad not bad not bad but yeah i mean we we're busy souls and you more so i mean i have not had that same type of sickness because it would require to me to work my butt off for 10 straight days like you said that just hasn't happened so you on the other and go, go, go. And yeah, I'm glad you're feeling better. But for me, here in Canada, we got snowed in kind of Christmas Day. I didn't get to see my kids until the 29th, but it doesn't matter. It's just a day on the calendar. Had a great time. It was nice. And now the calendar has changed, and things are going to be different. By the way, loved, loved the head-to-head episode. Yeah, it was fun. I mean, you recorded that after recording the last final round episode, and you were into the sauce. And I want to point out, it might be my favorite food ever, and I have not had one piece of bacon since. Yeah. Thank you for that. I will never look at grilled bacon ever again the same way. Greatest joke I've ever... I was crying. It wasn't a joke. It was actually a real story. That's what's funny about it. From the mouth of children. Oh, my gosh. I just... It was hilarious. Oh, God. Listen to Head to Head. And do more of them. Maybe that's your New Year's resolution. Maybe do two a year. Well, we have often talked about doing two a year, but it's hard enough having to do this podcast, let alone that one as well. Oh, is it hard doing two podcasts? I don't know. Is it really? Well, two good podcasts. Ta-da! There it is. You know, I feel if there is a need for us to do another head-to-head during the year, we'll do it. But as we sort of said on head-to-head, But every year I would normally see Ryan often and I would talk to him often. 2022, I saw him probably twice and didn't really speak that much, just obviously because we're both busy. So that was really good for us to just catch up because we hadn't caught up. Well, you've been busy at work and he's been busy prepping the next Jesse J's pinball adventure, I believe. Also, congratulations on Jesse J. Yeah. Yep. congratulations for sure on her engagement so 2023 here we are i think it's happening in australia i'm sure it is i think it's happening all over the world the state and provincial and country championships are all happening in this month in the third week of january uh in north america same situation kind of for you there in australia yeah yeah so it's a go-go-go to make the championships. It's what you, I guess, fight for or play for. It was exciting the first time you made the, for me, my provincial championships years and years ago. I saw how close it was. I'm like, okay, a few more tournaments, a few more good results. You know, you get to these events, whether it's this type of tournament or any big tournament, like in this coming week, and you see people that are there for the first time and they have to play somebody and like, oh no and i always say to those people anybody can win on any given day anybody can lose on any given day don't write yourself off as oh i've got to play such and such a person because the same thing can happen when you're a top ranked player and you're like oh i gotta i've got an easy round this is a this is nobody uh this person's not ranked you're about to get your ass whipped wouldn't that have can i just say how enjoyable it is when i'm watching the streams of these things when the underdog just either wins or just comes so close like you just it what it does as you said it just means that anybody will look at this and say hang on that could be me i could have actually won this because i could have had a great day and that person could have had a bad day yeah i've seen that like three times in the last few years that really pop in my head um the first time was at cleepin and this guy from north carolina was just killing it oh my gosh he's the top ranked player or not top ranked players he's he's got the most points and he's leading the leaderboards who the hell is this bill mason guy well now we all know how great he is but it was kind of the first time he traveled this past year in may there was a big pre-world ifpa 17 event i mean a massive event so you've got the best players from all over the world playing this and this young woman who had never really played much until she started i think maybe once covet ended sierra leaford i think her last name is please forgive me if i pronounce it wrong but i know sierra is the first name and she almost took out everyone she went to the finals with trent augenstein and just destroyed everyone so that kind of excitement is is what you're talking about and the other one was a year ago the first time everyone outside of colorado saw this guy named Walt Wood and just blow up Doctor Who and was exciting. And those are the kind of stories I like. And I'm sure we'll see some this week at Nindus. Yeah, I look forward to it. It's next on my list. Godzilla review. Oh, yeah. So you said, Brian, and you haven't seen much of each other over the last little while, although he did make a little trip to your house to drop off Godzilla because you've been dissing it. You've been shitting all over it. I think under your breath you've said Keith is the worst designer ever in history. I did not. No, that is not true. That's just what he said. That is not true. That was not under my breath. Come on. I've got the game. Ryan has the game. So many people. It's the number one seller. It's the Twiffy Award winner for Game of the Year, so it has to be the best game from last year. It has to be based on that. It is a fucking great game, but Marty, you've had some time on it. What do we think? Okay. so i've tried to really i love i love the pause the dramatic okay because the last time you did it here's my review of led zeppelin it is a pinball game that exists so go ahead god's i'll be quiet the reason why the pause is there is because i have been thinking now ever since this machine has been here at my house how am i going to articulate my feelings and thoughts towards this game so this is what i'm going to start by saying it is a phenomenal game it is it is without a doubt one of the best games that ever been made according to a lot of people oh there the pause There the pause There it is There it is Let me tell you what good about it I think some of the shots just feel great, right? There's a lot of kinetic satisfaction. I think the layout and geometry is really innovative. It just does some things that are just crazy good, right? Yeah. Sure. That's fine. Good. um what else is good about it um marty what do you think of the code that is what i care about the most for someone who codes games himself and not just this this isn't about what i care this is what potential haggis customers care about when they want to know what's marty thinking because he's going to be calling games what what's he thinking okay so the the code is okay here's what i want to say before i go into what i think about the code here's what i really want to say i now understand why everybody thinks this is the best game that's ever been made and also i just want to make a note i have had the most amount of direct messages ever in a week since I dissed Godzilla and also when Ryan said that I was going to get Godzilla, I've had so many messages from people saying I'm an idiot, that, you know, this is the reason why Godzilla is a fantastic game. And I get it. Here's what I want to say. And I don't want to be disrespectful to anybody. And I say that because normally I couldn't give a fuck, right? But this time, I'm genuinely saying this because I don't want this to come across as me being a fuckwit, right? But I understand why this game is considered the best game. Because it is designed to be the most accessible game that Stern's ever made. The shots can be made. Modes can be gotten into. Lights can happen. You get constantly rewarded. Constantly. You fucking hit... You miss your shot. There's a fanfare. You are constantly drip-fed reward. So no wonder you are feeling like you've played the best game, because this game is telling you that you are having a good time. Regardless of what you're doing, everything that you do feeds back something to the player. It is a masterclass in player feedback. There it is. Masterclass. I don't think Stern has ever had a game where they have choreographed the fuck out of a game where the timing of everything is so precise that you are just getting a high constantly, little micro moments through the game. then when you start you know the multiball and the the big tower goes up and down you're fed the rumble and the oh my god it's all but behind that there's not a lot but as a player you're made to feel like something amazing is happening all the time there you go so i'm trying to figure out your thinking when you say you miss something you're being rewarded like i know there's there's Hey, listen, you can get Tesla Strike, you can get Bridge, you can get tanks, you can get jets. There's lots of stuff. You can't miss anything. There's always something to eat. There's the saucer, the cannon. There's a lot of stuff there. I get that. I don't want to say it's a difficult game because I think the way the flippers are set, I know how you hate that, but I think that makes it a little more challenging at times for people. I do find it a long playing game compared to something else. I was watching Carl stream on IE Pinball and he was streaming Rush Premium. And people in the chat were saying, what's harder, Rush or Godzilla? And Carl said, Godzilla. And almost every single person in the chat said, no, no, no, no, no. Rush is way harder. And I think so too. So I'm kind of getting your reward thing there. But I know you can be punished when you use the upper flipper like all Keith's games, right? If you miss your upper flipper shot and you do, you miss, you could be in some trouble unless you really miss and get tail whipped. But interesting. Okay. You would have seen, I posted the video on Head to Head and we reposted that on Photo Round. I played one game. That game went for over an hour. And I got, I don't know, it was a 3.3 billion game. and that would have been a lot more had I known what I was shooting for when I got into you know some of the the battles with multiple monsters and some of the mini wizard modes it should have been a lot higher had I known what I was doing but I went through so much of that game I saw so much just on the one game I I stopped the game obviously took took that video and just went okay i'm done i'm done i saw way too much i didn't you remember i was talking about that whole you want to have that just one more game feel yes i didn't get that i would never get that after an hour-long game though on any machine no i know but why did i have an hour-long game i'm not that good okay that's not true and that's why i'm wondering if when you're critical of this and i am critical of something like Elvira, I have to step back and realize, Marty, you're a good player. That's why you do so well at Godzilla. I'm a good player. That's why I do well at Elvira. A lot of people are not as good as us and they have enjoyment because they get, like you say, rewarded for missing. Or, okay, maybe you went for the building, but hey, I got Tesla. That's great. Or I got a tank or something like that. There's so many spinners. There's three spinners on the thing. You're going to hit something. Yeah. Again, what I did appreciate is, and I also streamed it after, about a week after, And so I've now got to understand the code a lot more. And I really do. The summary is I do now appreciate Godzilla a lot more than I did before. I would never own it. I just don't think there's enough light and shade for me. I think it's just on all the time. And I think that that's what they've done. I think Stern have probably gone into this saying, we need to make a game that as many people as possible will enjoy. dial down the difficulty make the rules a little bit more accessible and there is so much in this game there is so many different things that you can do i i think that they've as i said they've just nailed the feedback so whoever did the code on that game i don't know who it is even though i think there's too much code i think the way that you are feeding back to the player moments and the feeling of success you've absolutely nailed it and that's why i think that most people like this game because most people are going to get something out of the game there you go keith made the rules rick nagel did the code and um you know one of my favorite things about the code i mean i really love what jerry did with the sound and i'm a huge fan and this never ever really pops for me ever on any game. It did on Haggis, and it does on this game. What am I talking about? I don't know. The GI. I never pay attention to that, ever. But when your end of ball, and you hear the footsteps, and the way the lights go and stuff, and then when he roars, the way it kind of shakes, it's really well done. It's one of my favorite things to watch, and I never give a shit about that stuff. I'm all about gameplay, but that really pops for me. It kind of brings me into, we're going to talk about a lot of things, but we're going to definitely talk about James Bond. But as I'm talking about that kind of things that pop for me, I look at games that are maybe eye candy, and Godzilla's definitely got eye candy on it. Fathom has eye candy on it. I look at art, and there's so many good artists out there. And of course, it's extremely subjective. But what I really look for in art doesn't have to be real. It can be cartoon. It doesn't you know, I don't like the cut and paste stuff. But what I really look for believe it or not is Where the art is used and the spacing, you know, you've got this canvas if you will of the play field and and Here's where a pop bumper is gonna go. Here's where a scoops gonna go. So you have to kind of work all around that The biggest skill for an artist to me is not the actual art itself It's the placement and using that play field as a canvas and utilizing the space to a tee you know i i love the art on deadpool i find it very full uh maybe almost too much but it's spectacular whereas something like godzilla i'm like oh jesus is perfect this is really it's everything's in the right spot you know that's what i look at i agree with you and we've talked about this before though i think in recent times probably okay and this is the challenge that I think the artists have is how do you incorporate the theme art and pinball art so pinball art is things like uh borders around inserts does that make sense so how do you how do you incorporate inserts into pinball art and I would say games like um I would say Godzilla definitely nails it rush nails it scooby-doo avengers nails it so does scooby-doo but i think elvira is probably the best for me it's pretty good though it's quite busy but it's busy with pinball art you know what i mean not not so much the theme art even though that is there as well but it's really good pinball art as well wizard of oz is one of the all-time best to me yeah i agreed for me i Hobbit for me I think has just got this really good mix of theme art and pinball art really nailed it I think but that's that's where I think 007 suffers and I'm not talking about the the new one I'm talking about all of them it suffers because and Star Wars was the same where there was a bit too much we need all these things just plop them on okay they're on Yeah, yeah. That's what James Bond and the Star Wars one was, for sure. Whereas Led Zeppelin's like, we've got nothing, so we'll just put nothing on there. But you're right. The Bond one is, you know, I think of the pro, the Dr. No cab, it's yellow. On the left side of the cab, it's kind of, you know, it certainly is a throwback to the 1962 movies and that art. I don't know if it works in 2023. Whereas the other side, oh, it's movie posters? I'm cool with that. the back glass doesn't do it for me and then like you say the play field it's like it's just we got to put all these things on and it's just it popped on there with no real what like where am i going what am i doing it's just i'm seeing a million faces and and different movie titles yeah i don't i don't get it i know yeah the new one so we've had a chance to look at the le really i love the whole cabinet for sure i think i i'm a fan of that I haven't seen the topper work yet. I guess it lights up and stuff. We're talking about just the art. I liked seeing the six James Bond actors. I think the odd job hat is pretty cool in the middle there. Looks kind of neat. It's cleaner than the Pro and the Premium, I think. But now we've got to talk about other things. Okay. So let's talk about 007. I'm just trying to get a picture of the layout just so I can talk to it. Do you want to know my thoughts on the 60th anniversary limited edition James Bond pinball machine? Yes, and I'm hoping, fingers crossed. I messaged Keith. I said, well done. Can I borrow $20,000? And he pointed out it was only $19.99. Thank you, Keith. Plus tax. yeah all right fine the thing i'm hoping with that is you remember when they shipped stranger things and afterwards you found out holy shit they actually put this uv kit in there when like and they didn't tell you about it like you found that out after the fact i'm hoping with those four spinners there are actual diamonds in the spinners okay here here are some thoughts over $20,000 for this. What a waste of Keith Irwin's talent. Jack Danger's home pin looks better than this. Heck, I'd buy Primus. Another thought I have is, looks like a home pin. Stern's most expensive home pin with Led Zeppelin being the second. Another thought is, the distributors bought them. It seems these days they'll put whatever spin they want to say. Sorry, I'm trying to read this. I knew it. You're reading this. I knew this. These are my, I'm just like, so you know, These are my favourite comments that people have said. It's sold out, meaning the distributors bought them. It seems these days they'll put whatever spin on it they want to say that. Just poor business model. Games just aren't what they used to be. It's supreme for James Bond superfans, not for Stern's core customers. That's what the Gomez Bonds are for. When their decisions are bad for the hobby and, in my opinion, disrespectful to the people that support them, then don't expect not to have criticism about it. Did you know that today they took out the price from the website? I wonder why. The reason is, of course, to give the opportunity to distributors to fix the price for them and sell the game cheaper. And what about the suckers that bought it already for $22,000? Well, that will do it. This is the most expensive game Stern has done so far. The most expensive by far. And with that in mind, it should include everything we love about pinball. For a total cost of $22,000, it should have upper playfield, lower playfield, ramps and extra ramps, many moving mechanisms and in general everything we love about pinball. Instead we got this and 500 suckers that bought it. The hobby is indeed a very weird place and definitely Stern's target group is not anymore the hardcore pinheads but people with a lot of money which they just don't care. I love Keith Owen but there's no way I'm spending $20,000 on one machine. That's nearly the cost of three pros and is over the cost of two I'm almost done. Seems like another Beatles Diamond Edition cash grab. I'm sure it plays great, but I don't see it holding $20,000 value at 500 units. If Totan and TNA had a baby, it would be this. Imagine buying a $20,000 pin without any premium or LE mods besides the LE tag. Ha ha ha. Would be a cool home pin buy, what the fuck are they thinking here? Microsoft paint side art, no LE premium anything, no expression lighting, $10,000 side armor, $5,000 shooter knob, stock, and it probably doesn't even have a shaker motor. I love how the scoring is EM style, but it's not EM style too. Lol. Epic fail. Okay, I swear I'm almost done, but I've had so much fun with this. Where are you getting this? The internet. Like Pinside, Facebook, all the above? Facebook mainly. I don't go to Pinside. Okay, let's just be real here. This is absolute horseshit. $20,000. You make a collector's game at the highest price on the market and what do you get? Fucking clip art, copy and paste graphics and a single layer no innovation layout. Stern is clearly looking to only take people's money from customers with just too much money to know better and that's wrong. So tired of seeing collectors and signature special editions and they just throw crap at a wall and produce junk. There's nothing special about this game. So frustrating because Stern is supposed to be the big designers and manufacturer. When When are they going to get back to making games worth their price? Just terrible business practice. Oh, I had so much more. Don't you have to get to four pillars? It says, I've been impressed. Too much hype. What happened to the mechanical reels? They're digital. Also, the ball lock on the right looks a lot like the Denise lock from TNA. Okay, they are mechanical reels. No, I know. That's why I thought I'd read that one out. And there's another one that says, oh, isn't that the Beatles layout? But so the summary of it is this. Let's not talk about price just for a second. Can we? Just not talk about price. Okay, price doesn't matter. Price doesn't matter. I want to play the fuck out of this game. So do I. Oh, my God. This looks so much fun, except for the hat in the middle. I'm not a fan of. But no, I don't like it. I don't like those spinny disc things. I do. No, I know. But that's subjective. but as far as layout goes it looks oh my god so much fun it just kind of reminds me of obviously got the street level games but you know single level playfields from that era in particular i think got league games which i'm a massive fan of oh i i just look at this play field and i just think about shot satisfaction this is going to play so well that's what i think take note designers because once again game number five keith has done what he is a big fan of and what maybe should be done more of you know they talk about flow and stuff like that keith has said flow is overrated look at all those shots there isn't an orbit shot there you're not going to come back around you're not going to do loop passes if you shoot what looks like an orbit it's going to come into a different spot. The right side comes through the middle, I guess. I love that he does things like that. Yeah, it looks fantastic. By the way, if money's not an issue, everybody wants this game. Project Pinball, in less than two hours, sold out $200 raffle tickets. I didn't start it there. They sold 200 of them at $200. People want this machine big time. So the only issue really, really is money because it looks pretty awesome. If money was not an issue for me, I'd have it in a heartbeat because I like the theme. I love Keith's layouts for spinners. You know, some of those comments you read, you know, I want an upper and a lower play field. No, I don't. No, I do not want those things. Speak for yourself and that's fine, but I don't want that crap. Once again, spinners are better than ramps. No. Come on, man. Nope. When you can make the spinners juice... No, fine. I just disagree. No, I know. No, this is just... I don't... I love the fact that it's got lots of spinners. I'm just saying I prefer games that have got ramps and spinners. That's all. I just think spinners are fine. But I would prefer a ramp. Okay. But that doesn't mean... It's not right or wrong. It's not good or bad. I do like games with ramps. however however people we've got so many fucking games with ramps right if you want a game with ramps go crazy there's so many games out there that you can get to have a game and this is this okay let me go back to my favorite quote right which was the first one my favorite quote here it is over twenty thousand dollars for this what a waste of Keith Elwin's talent okay jack danger's HomePin looks better than this. Heck, I'd buy Primus. That is fucking stupid. There you go. I've said it. I have a take on this. Okay. This is my opinion. 500 of those machines are going to sell out 20 million in sales Now I realize distributors are going to get their cut and all that kind of thing million in sales to produce 500 of these Yeah. Okay. If I'm Keith Elwin, get the hell out of your Stern contract immediately because you are the greatest free agent anybody could have. You could work for everybody. you should set up Keith Elwin Productions and not be licensed to just one person because here in 2023 we've already been told by George Gomez there is not going to be a Keith Elwin game. There wasn't in 2022. You cannot count this. The last one we got was in 20... When was Godzilla? 2021? Yeah, it must have been. So we've got to wait three years for maybe a Keith Elwin game if it's not one of these boutique games if you will designers get commission on what they sell okay it's it's how sales works okay is that is that 100 factual just go with it i don't want to i know the answer just go with it okay sure you're not being able to sell your games that's money out of your pocket keith you should be going to anybody you should go to haggis you should go to american you should go to jersey you should go to spooky you can go to anybody go to punny factory for all i care whatever they're called pinball adventures yep keith has said i can make a game in nine months you should have your games on the line at all times and i know that's the case right now because godzillas are being done maidens are being done i assume jurassic should be done they're all being done that's all kind of that's all fine but you're leaving money on the table and you're a buddy of mine and i want to see you i want to see you the richest person in pinball because you deserve every penny of it in my opinion but do you think that keith wants to be the richest person like you're you're assuming that people then put a dollar value no no no no no no no i i i'm not assuming that i'm speaking for myself but you're saying you're saying he should go and because he could earn more money he should be Keith Elwin productions not an employee of stern and for what purpose but what purpose listen stern's not going to say oh we want exclusivity if you work for someone else we can't have you bullshit every shareholder of stern's gonna say we'll take a Keith Elwin game whenever we can get it and now we got to wait how many years in between games I know what you're saying I'm just trying to say that you've said he should do this because he could earn more money well he's being denied by not being able to have a game but why does he care? why does he care? you're assuming that he cares about the fact that he's being denied money he may actually be the happiest he has ever been I hope so the reason why I say this is because what's happening with all these responses is people are, they're projecting their own values onto the situation. So I go back to that last quote where people are saying, what a waste of Keith Irwin's talents. And I say that's bullshit because I reckon making a game with ramps is so much easier than making a single level play field that shoots really well. So I don't see this as being a waste of his talent at all i don't either no but that's what i'm saying like all these people are going oh it's like a bullshit no no no no no no take price out of it just for a second have a look at this this is possibly going to be one of the most fun games you will ever play i don't know that for a fact i've not played it it looks that it's going to be so much fun that is not a waste of Keith Elwin's talent i think Keith Elwin is the only person that could possibly carry this that that could actually make this happen. You know what I mean? Like, Stain have gone into saying, we want to do a 60th anniversary, we want to make a street-level game, it's going to have all the bonds. Who's the only person that can really make this happen? Keith Elwin. Do you get what I mean by that? And so I think people are looking at this and saying, well, I'm priced out of this, therefore it's a bad thing, therefore everything sucks. The sky is falling. Skyfall. See what I did there? No? Okay. That's good. Yep, cool, cool, cool. that's what I'm sort of saying. And when you say things like, well, Keith Elwin should get out of Stern, why? He may be the happiest he's been. No, hold on a second. You said that. I think he should get out of a Stern exclusivity contract. Well, it's not that he's a Stern exclusivity contract. He's an employee of Stern. That's different. Oh, my God! I think you should say, this is my commission rate. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to build for whoever I want and make a frickin' mint. and and you can't tell me one second if you didn't own haggis you wouldn't say keith please do this design for us you would spooky would american would jersey jack would everybody would because his game cell you know he's going to come up with something that no one else has done and i'm not shitting on any other designers i love almost everything we see out there i like that but there's something special about what keith does and he can call his own shots and now he doesn't get to produce a game for a few years money's left on the table and maybe you're right maybe it doesn't matter to them but listen i i deal a lot in sports and we talk sports analogies we talk about contracts and this and that do we i do in my you talk sports analogies i can tell you i don't and it's all about value and yeah there is not a more important more valuable employee than Keith Elwin wherever he works. It happens to be at Stern right now, and I hope he works wherever he wants, and he's happy wherever he wants. And you know what? Stern produces a lot, and they produce more than anyone else, so maybe that's the best place. But having him on the sidelines when he's probably got the next game and maybe the next two games done, that kind of sucks. That's the thing that sucks for me. Sucks for who? For you as a player that wants to play more of his games? It's for everybody that buys pinball machines that loves Keith Elwin games. Okay, but he's not a robot. What do you mean he's not a robot? He can't just produce games every six months because that's what you want. We have a shelf life of how long we can do things, and Keith's over 50 years old, so yeah, he can do this for another 20 years. Hey, I'm being serious, but he could give us just game after game after game, and we've got to wait. Yeah. And listen, look at this fucking game. It's a single-level game, so people, oh, where are my ramps and all that stuff? Oh, it's $20,000. Sold out instantly. it's gone. It's because it's Keith. But if he just starts pumping out games, you're going to have the Avengers effect, which is a game that's Keith Elwin that just gets overshadowed because the next one comes out and everyone's talking about that instead. There's something to be said about leaving people wanting. I've talked about that. I've talked about that. Sure. That was my Bloodhound Gang analogy that I gave. So when you're going, oh you know i just wish there was more stern are probably rubbing their hands together going good very good shareholders are going when when i want it now yeah of course but it comes back to then you saying well Keith Elwin he should be unhappy with what he's got right now i didn't say he did no i didn't say he should no i did not say he should be unhappy i said there's money being left on the table and he would only be happy if he said no he's getting that money rewind the tape you said you said do i think he's unhappy i said no i'm just saying what i would do if i were him because there's great opportunities out there man he's the best thing that's what i'm saying so you're now projecting your values i said it was my situation i know it was mine i know but Keith Elwin is a human he's probably sitting there going fucking stop talking about my life I'm just here fucking designing games. Like my games, stop telling me how much money I should earn and what I should do with my life. Fuck. Okay. Do you not think when Gomez said, coming out in 2023, we're going to see a Jack Danger game? Great. We're going to see a Brian Eddy game? Great. So no new Borg game? Okay. Rush was... Now we've got to wait a while for Borg, because Rush came out in January or December over a year ago. We've got to wait a while for that. And we've got to wait for Keith, because not everyone could buy this Keith game. You don't think Keith was a little bummed that, holy fuck, my game's been done for a while and I've got to sit and wait? No, I don't. Because he may be actually just sitting on the best game that's ever been made. And he's like, I don't want to rush this because this is going to be best. Don't forget, don't forget, his last game, let's take Bond out of it, his last game was Godzilla. Godzilla has been considered the best game in the world. do you think he's just going to stick any old crap out he's got to improve on what he's done i don't think he has ever put any old crap out i think that's right i think he's got a lot of ideas and i think right now is the sweet spot and because we're seeing so few games a year we talked about it on the last episode maybe what seven titles in a year and keith's not going to be one of them that's disappointing and that is as i said earlier leaving money on the table for not only keith but also for the shareholders yeah i don't think i don't think anyone's complaining about money at this stage i get that but is that not the game to answer to shareholders and say you know okay our profits are down this week because or this quarter because Are there profits down? I didn't say that. I'm just saying, are you telling me shareholders wouldn't want a Keith Elwin game as soon as possible? What I'm saying is, I am not a shareholder. How would I know? If I owned shares in Stern, I would want a Keith Elwin game. And I think most people would because of the unbelievable, got to have it. It's going to play great. It's everything you want. You don't have to worry. It's going to sell. Okay. But do you know what Stern's sales numbers are? Did Rush sell as many as Avengers, as Godzilla? I would say Godzilla sold more. Look at the production lines. Yeah, but how do you know? But no one knows. I'll tell you why. Look at the production lines. How many times has Godzilla been on production? Yeah, but Rush is still in production. It has not been on as much as Godzilla has. And you can look at the... Because you know they're going to make X amount of games per day. So how long has it been done? Those numbers are known. Nice try, fucko. No, they're not known, though. They are not known. Because if they're known, you would give me a number. What's the absolute number of what they've produced? Do you know who does know? Do you? Do you know who does know? Do you know? The designers know. Sure. Well, let's get them on. I've got Keith here. They are not going to reveal that right now. Right, but you don't know. Right. So I don't know. This is my point. My point is... Yeah, I don't know publicly. You're right. No, that's right. But the point I'm making in all of this is everyone's a fucking critic. Everyone's a fucking expert. No, you're not. You don't know. You don't know what's – like, everyone's saying, oh, Stern's fucking, you know, shitting on the community. What are they? Someone's saying, like, they're disrespectful and they're, you know, whatever. I'm trying to find that. I'm not – those are comments about the price. I'm talking about the man who's the best designer we have seen in, like, he is night and day. And there are great designers out there. We're in the best time of pinball. But there's something about Keith. It's just. No, but this is, I know you say that. And so do most people. Come on. Sure. For whatever reason, right? But I think Rush is a better game than Godzilla. So therefore, I think John Borg is just as good a designer as Keith Elwin. is is that in is that a valid i can't disagree with you about rush i enjoy playing rush as much as i enjoy playing godzilla so they are they are equal to me sure i think based on productions based on sales based on the theme because rush is a polarizing theme for some people just like iron maiden was because iron maiden you know we got to swap out the music because it's not my cup of tea i get that with rush i get that with maiden with any band sure but you just said Keith Irwin is the best designer it's night and day I don't think that's fair come on Marty I'm not I'm not playing this this isn't ones and zeros but this isn't ones and zeros come on he's not the best by far he is the best I'm gonna say that I think he's the best there we go that's all you had to say but I'm not saying he's the best and it's night and day and all the others are shit that's what you said not in exactly those words but you know what I mean I think that's disrespectful i think that george gomez i think george gomez is probably the best designer in the world he's just not designing as many games okay i think i think he is a great designer yeah i don't think he's as good as keith i'll say it sure okay that's fine i think he's got a longer history of course yep he's got some epic games but uh sorry here we go sports analogy oh okay everybody's a free agent you get to pick one designer you're telling me you're not picking Keith, you're picking George Gomez? Bullshit. You're picking Keith, number one overall draft pick. Come on, you can't even pretend to find a way that Keith's not the guy. You're safe. Everyone's going to be happy. He's a guy who comes with the rules. Uniqueness. I know what you mean. He actually has the ability to do it all. He just did a masterpiece in a single level play field. boom there you go yeah none of us have played it so we still don't know if it is the best game that's street level i didn't say it's the best game but it's certainly not well we said it's yet another version of you know what we've seen before but you said it's a masterpiece is it a masterpiece we don't know we're speculating because we're in the business of speculating that's why we do a podcast if we weren't speculating we'd have nothing to talk about good point okay so you know i think i think we we you can tell we're both passionate about what's going on i i just want to say if i can summarize my feelings about this is that this is a fantastic game okay yeah for those people that bought it it means that amount of money is they're getting value for whatever they put down and for you to make people feel shit because they bought them, then that's on you. Not me. You're talking about those things you write. I'm talking about all the comments, right? Because I know a couple of people that have bought one. And my response was, fantastic. It looks like a cracker of a game. And you know what? $20,000 is a lot of money. I mean, that's $30,000 here in Australia, right? That's a lot of money, right? It's a lot of money. It's way too much money for a pinball machine. For me. possibly for you and for a lot of people but there are 500 people where it's not that much. If it was $20,000 and there was an endless run of them it's ridiculous. The $20,000 is because there are only 500. That's it. And those people that bought one they're going to feel good because they've got something that's special that most people don't have. When you buy art and you see it's done by an artist and you see in the bottom right hand corner it's a limited edition slash out of 100 or something like that. It's worth more than just something that's mass-produced. So there is the value there. I don't think you're going to see these on Pinside or any of the marketplaces coming up in the next year or two or three under $20,000. So again, congrats and well done. And if money wasn't an issue, I'd have one in a heartbeat. Oh, in a heartbeat. I'm so proud of Keith being able to show people a single level play field is not just a bunch of shit like it can really be exciting and we haven't played it we haven't seen gameplay of it no i know looking at i'm like okay well here's a perfect example the other bond the pro and the premium i like the layout looks pretty good and i've played a bunch of it i'm going to wait playing it until the code is there because the shots are fun there's things to do but the code just is not there yet and i have all the faith in the world we've talked about before if it shoots good code will come it'll get there that's going to be a great game too from your boy george gomez yeah your number one draft pick come on man you tell me no anybody listening for me it would be borg i would pick borg for a safe bet number one overall yep borg you're just saying that to me it's it's like it's like the rolling stone best 200 singers list leaving celine dion off that give me a fucking break or leave leaving uh who else was off that list there were so many good ones rolling stone magazine had a list of the 200 greatest singers of all time celine dion didn't make the list come on man diana ross didn't make the list give me a break yeah those those lists are designed to make people angry yeah it's like you saying john borg's my number one pick no i but i'm not saying that i didn't say he was the best designer i just said if i wanted a safe bet i'd go book i i because he oh i get your point they're always yeah you know what you're getting okay all right you know what you're getting i i i feel great with and as i said if i look at elwyn's games and this is just me and i'm not trying trying to be oppositional iron maiden fantastic game i sold it jurassic park i would if i if i could have my time again meaning i didn't need the money at the time i would still have jurassic park in my collection i i i think i think that's one of the best games that's ever been made avengers godzilla am i missing any of the others just the bond le and bond le and archer well that but you know what i mean like you're saying he's the best i don't think so sorry keith i love you want to do you but i i he's got a passport now so free sex if you come on come over to aussie seriously come down under for a little down all right here we go come down wow no this is the first podcast ever to offer free blowjobs this is the best i did not say they were free um what i'm saying is that for me personally i'm not there yet okay you are a lot of people are that's great i still look at the 20 or so years that john borg has put out games and i go you've you've earned it for me i reckon keith will get there but give me some more give me some more is he at least a seasoned veteran that's all i want to know oh fuck you he is he is too he's not he's released four games five games season veteran it's just no i just i cannot buy into that do we have other shit on here you saw you saw avatar didn't you i did i haven't seen it i'm going this weekend okay i mean do you want to know like i i can see on the show notes it says movie review avatar do you want to know or are you like me where you don't want to know anything before going to see a movie. Let me tell you what I know about Avatar 2 and the original movie. I saw the original movie on an IMAX screen, was enamored by the eye candy that was watching this kind of a new revolution of 3D movies. I plan on doing that again. I can't remember what the hell the movie was about and I haven't seen it since. I not saying it bad I just that was a fun ride but it not something I really recall and even whatever big screen you have at home i just have no desire to see it again i guess i want to see what all the hype's about because it looks pretty cool i don't want to drink a lot of pop while i'm sitting watching that movie because underwater you can't i'm gonna piss myself but i do want to see it okay so i'll try and say something without giving anything away here's marty's movie review Avatar 2 is a movie that exists. Yes, it has actors. It involves a screen. Okay, I saw the first movie four times at the cinema. One of your all-time favourites, isn't it? It is absolutely one of my all-time favourites. But I saw it at the cinema four times because I saw it in 3D at the cinema. And there was just nothing like it. Like, as far as visuals go, there was no other movie I'd ever felt like I was in the movie. Was there much of a storyline of the original? No. It's not meant to be. It's kind of like the Godzilla of movies, in that it's meant to appeal to everybody. It's not meant to challenge you. I don't remember what it's about, isn't it? If I recall, wasn't it just something to do with mining and people wanting to take over the... Basically, like, correct me if I'm wrong, because I really don't know, but just how shitty we treat indigenous people, for example. Is that not what the movie's about? Basically, the movie is about how humans are garbage people. Yes, yes. We are just not very good. No respect for... When there's greed involved, we will do anything and don't care about others, right? So it's basically the history of humans, really, is what it is. So they're on Pandora. they're mining unobtainium and the indigenous people are the Navi and they're basically killing them, they don't care whatever, that's really it that was the first movie that was the first movie is the second movie about pulling plastic straws out of turtles noses underwater what is going on in part 2 it's more of the same oh ok and I kept thinking because everyone was saying it's exactly the same movie except it's underwater First of all, it's not underwater. There are some underwater things, but it's not underwater. So get that out of your head. It's kind of set like 20 years after the first movie. So if you remember the last movie, the main character, Sully was his name, maybe? Jake Sully? Could be. Wasn't Sully in Monsters, Inc.? Yeah, I also think Sully was in Uncharted. but Jake Sully is the main character's name Sam Worthington's character he ended up hooking up with a Na'vi chick and that was really the end you know I see you blah blah blah blah he ended up becoming a proper Na'vi how that happened so this movie is set 20 years later and it's got a family okay that's all I'm going to tell you should I see it oh fuck yeah oh fuck yeah oh good oh fuck fuck fuck fuck you know I was really reluctant to see it because I've got that whole Moby sequel phobia problem. It goes for three hours and 12 minutes. Holy mother. Intermission? No intermission. Three hours and 12 minutes. And I kept thinking to myself... I'm bringing a bucket. So don't drink anything. I made sure I had lots of food, but I did not drink any liquids whatsoever. So don't have popcorn because popcorn's full of salt. Have lots of chocolatey and lollies so you don't need to drink. Tell me how to treat my body. I'm sat... Well, no, fine. How dare you project that on me? Fine. Go there and... I'll eat a big tub of popcorn and have a big pop as well. Good. And then go and do a piss and miss one of the most important scenes in the movie. Give me the piss time. Every movie gives you like a... It's like when bands play, all right, we got three new songs to play for you. You know you can go get a beer. When's the time you can go take a piss in the movie? There's got to be some. I'll Google it. There are some. Yeah, it do. But that's... Yeah. Absolutely. I said I was worried about seeing it, and I loved it. Loved it. Is it as good as the first? Of course it is. But the first was so revolutionary, it's very hard to have that same sort of wow. Visually, is it better? Yeah, and 13 years have passed. The graphics, you can tell 13 years have passed. It is gorgeous to look at. And again, I'd recommend it in 3D. spoiler alert it is a james cameron movie so in this way of the water sequel do you actually see the titanic that would be fucking cool good callback yeah yeah yeah yeah so but again when i got to the end and after three hours i was thinking well to make that a shorter movie what could you have gotten rid of and i couldn't think of anything i just don't think there was any filler it was just okay good good i'm excited it's a long movie i should have done my movie review first because it wasn't as good i enjoyed it i mentioned earlier the 200 greatest singers rolling stone magazine put out i am fascinated by music biopics what movie did i go see you don't even know oh a music biopic um oh i don't isn't there some movie about some 70s rock band that's like a biopic is that no i went to go see i want to dance with somebody the whitney houston biopic okay now i hate her and think she's the spawn of satan so i would never see the movie but i would imagine i would imagine it's actually a fascinating film you tell me well i like listen i love love love the band queen and have been a fan as you are since i was a young young child When the movie came out, I went, hey, wait a second. That didn't really happen like that. And it didn't happen when they said it did. They took a lot of liberties in that movie, little Hollywood stuff. But then when Rocketman came out, as we talked about, Elton John, who was a producer on the movie, said, no, no, no, no, no. I was an asshole. Put that in. Put that in. Show all the bumps and warts and all that kind of thing. Whitney Houston I was wondering are they gonna show everything and they did oh good good good and so I did appreciate that because you know she what a voice and uh she had her flaws obviously and her demons and uh they put those in there and they put in their relationship that they didn't mention uh during her life obviously her close friends knew about it but um years after she died her former partner put out a book and people were like, is this true or not? Well, finally they said, yeah, it is true. So it's canon and I was glad to see that happen. I enjoyed it. I mean, I just, the woman who plays Whitney, her name's Naomi Ackie, I believe her name is. Spectacular job. So listen, I liked it. I liked the music. I got a lot of goosebumps and it was good. Yeah, good. Yeah, fun. And I had popcorn and I had a big drink and I didn't piss or shit myself. Yeah, because it was over three hours. That's right. I am going to Indisc in a few days at the time of this recording. I know this is a bummer for you because you love that tournament. Oh my God, I do. I really, really do. They do a great job, Jim, Jay, Bob, and of course, Carl D'Python Anghelo. This is not in Banning, California anymore. You haven't been to the new Riverside one. It's spectacular. Hotels right there, food. You don't need to rent a car. Is it in Palm Springs? No, it's closer to the Ontario airport, Ontario, California. So I think, like, I know it was an easy Uber ride for me to get there. It was like $35 or something like that. So I didn't have to rent a car, which was kind of nice when you're there for a few days. But all these tournaments, I mean, they've got two classics. They've got the women's. They've got a youth tournament. They've got this Target Match Play Classics Big Event. They've got this high-stakes tournament to enter. $500. You get 10 entries to get your best five games on one card. And when that card's done, you play your next card. 10 entries. Wait a second. Wait a second. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you for a second. I just want to just clarify something. How much is it per card? You can't buy a card. You have to buy $500 to get 10 cards for the high stakes. $50 a card? Is that what you're saying? Which is probably what it was before, but yeah. That's not bad. That's not bad. No, but it's the fact you've got to spend $500. And it's designed not to be for pretenders. You're playing this not even for Whoppers. You're playing this for cash. And, of course, then there's the big open tournament, which is going to be the biggest Whopper Fest ever in the history of pinball. This is going to be worth more than any tournament has ever been worth. It's a major. There's a lovely Stern Premium game to be won for the winner, plus tons of cash prizes. I would suspect the winner is going to be getting over 200 Whoppers just for this event. Nuts. Crazy. Madness. Yeah. Do your good thing. Like, in disc, fuck yeah. It'll be fun. Watch the stream on IE Pinball. There'll be a lot of great people commentating on that. Of course, Carl does a good job. But you'll just see, if you've got to go to one tournament, and to get your whopper fixed, to get your tournament filled, this is the one. But it's amazing when we look at the emails we get, how many people are actually big tournament talk fans. And they always say, oh, you want to kill a podcast, talk about tournaments. That's not what happens on our show. People seem to love it. It's actually strange. Isn't that weird? I know. I know. but this tournament what makes this so unique is it's the old papa style papa just outside of pittsburgh and carnegie pennsylvania they used to do this thing where you would play games and you have a card so i play game number one and let's just say it's tron that score goes on that card and then i play the next game and let's say it's surf and safari that goes on if i have a bad surf and safari shit i gotta do better on my next three games because you can't play surf and safari again and you have to play five different games on that card. So you have to have five consistent games. It is one of the hardest tournaments to qualify for because it requires that tough consistency and several days of qualifying and the world's best players. There's going to be at least 250 people there, maybe 300, maybe more. This is a challenge. This is a great tournament, and they do that format for the women's. They do that for both classics events. They have a children's event and the high stakes. you watch the stream you'll see some great pinball no look let me tell you let me let me tell you the problem i have with everything you just said like from the start of the show like fuck can we just rewind i'm now going to critique line by line everything that you've just said no if i was sitting at home right now and thinking oh i'm not that good a player but should i go to indisc from what you've just said those people are saying well that's it i'm fucking out there's no way it's too challenging it's the hardest format the best of the best why bother it is everything else i said though it is no i know that's why i'm what i want to say for those people that are listening to jeff and just gone well you've just ruined pinball for everybody bullshit but what i'm what i'm going to say to you is just fucking go and have fun because besides the fact that you got this card format which i've never done but everyone's told me that it is it's a bit of a challenge it's the it's the fun you did do it i've never done a card format ever you did i'm yeah you did when you were at india when you were in the b finals did i i think so did i did i don't know are you saying you didn't i've never i said twice now i've never done a card format are you calling me a liar fucking hammered i'll call you i can call you a lot of things liar is not one of them but really i've always thought they've done no that was the last pump It used to be a pump and dump? It was the last pump and dump. I stand corrected. I'll move forward because nobody thought you were correct. I've never done the card format, so I think I'd be a little bit nervous about it, but I also would think, fuck it, buy another card. You know what? And also, everyone has so much fun talking about their cards. You know what I mean? Remember how I sort of said before that there's playing the game and then there's also playing the tournament, which is part of the game, which we're having that conversation about tournaments ruining pinball. It's that kind of thing. The card format is fun because you can do four great games and then do an absolute stinker and basically ruining your whole card. That in itself is an event. That's part of the fun. So for those people that are going, well, I don't know and it sounds like it's going to be tough. Yeah, it is, but it's also fun. that's part of the fun? It is fun and it is tough, but if you've ever asked yourself, I wonder where I stand. How can I do against the best of the best? And if you look at the standings last year, you saw some names you never saw before on there and you went, wow, who were these people? They've never done this well before because all it really takes is to have five games. You don't have to have five grand champion scores. You just have to have five decent games. If you can look at the bank and say, I think I can do okay on that. You know, I think on Tronica, maybe get a couple multi-balls. Okay. You know the game's going to be set up. I don't have to blow it up. I just have to have something that is what they call a non-bleeder in that you don't want it to be the worst of everyone playing the game. If you have a score that, oh my gosh, I got 6 million on Batman 66, you know everybody playing the game is going to beat that. Well, you just want to have some kind of decent in-between scores, and sometimes that's all you need. Avoid the bleeders. And then when you get a good card, then, okay, what am I going to do? Watch it go down, watch it go down. Or are you going to play a little defense and play the games that you haven't played on your card and try to knock down the scores of the people ahead of you? Oh, there's the strategy. That's the fun part. This is what I'm talking about. This is where it's fun and everybody has a chance to change the outcome. Everybody. And that's what's fun about it. And sort of what we've said a couple of episodes ago is if you go into this thinking, I'm either going to win or I'm going to have a bad time, it's not ones and zeros, Ryan. It's you will have fun regardless. You might not come first, but you're still going to have fun. It is fun. Check it on IE Pinball. January 12th to the 15th. Lots of pinball action. Okay. Other than a fucking million spam emails. What is going on there? Yeah, I keep deleting them. Someone's obviously given out an email address to some bot site. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Thanks, assholes. Thanks, whoever did that. To you? No, I think every time we've bagged out Ian because of COVID, he's gone, all right, every time you mention my name, I'm going to sign you up for some shit website. Shit, we're in trouble. We didn't mention this time, Ian. Yeah. A couple good emails here. I'm going to read two. Okay. Okay, one is from Ed in Kentucky. Okay. Jeff and Marty, thank you, thank you, thank you for talking about older games. If I hear another podcast about Godzilla, I'm going to throw up. Sorry about the first half of the show, Ed, but we had to get the review. He wrote, don't get me wrong. Everybody loves the newest pins, but sometimes it's just nice to not hear about the new games and dive into some older games, no matter the context of the conversation. And as a side note, I enjoy the podcast being a little bit longer than usual. Cheers for that. That show was supposed to be 45 minutes. Drunky Magoo kept fucking talking. Drunky Magoo. Sure. Okay. Anyway, so he said, have a good holidays and looking forward to Haggis doing Flash Gordon. Okay, you got a request for that from Ed. It wasn't the first request. A lot of people say Flash Gordon. Just to let you know. um but this is the whole thing remember i was sort of saying i just wanted us to talk about those old games and i got a bit of a nostalgia fix i was hoping that other people would so ed that that just really made me happy that you appreciated that so there you go and cory hulse uh nice email hi gents hope all's well love the nerdy tournament talk i'm in favor of more of it sure got it you talked about fireball 2 in the last episode by the way marty thank you for introducing that to me again. I don't know why. I don't think I've ever played that game. Yeah, and that's why I was... I wasn't just like, oh my god, Jeff, you're an idiot. I was like, oh my god, Jeff, when you get a chance to play this, you are going to be fucking happy. Yeah, I was an idiot last episode when I did no Fireball 2. It is good. Corey writes, it happens to be the first game I own and I made a three-minute tutorial video back in the day. Okay, it's on YouTube. You can check that out. Drop targets galore. His favorite ballets from that era, he said you can do these with 2.0 code in no particular order. Fireball 2, Mystic, Skateball, Hotdoggin, Xenon. So that was sent to you there, Marty. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, sure. We haven't responded to Corey, so we're doing it here on their podcast. Finally, I've been doing some reflecting on the year and was thinking about how appreciative I am of both the highly competitive community, the big wig players who travel to the pro circuit events and hang out on Tilt forums and Ray Day's Discord, and my own hyper local community, the people we see week in and out at League and who support local shows and tournaments. Jeff, I'm sure you saw these local communities time and time again through your World Tour, your US Tours, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to host them. Thanks, Corey. As an adult, before I got into pinball, I thought it would be near impossible to make new friends once I was out of school, but I very much appreciate all the connections and friendships that have formed since getting into the competitive side of the hobby plus the genuine fostering of the local community. So there you go. That's why competitive pinball is fun. I never would have met you if it wasn't for competitive pinball and doing podcasts and things like that. Anyway. Yeah. But again, he said on New Year's Eve, he was able to get 48 friends together, eat a bunch of good food and get one last tournament in to count towards the NACs, which is obviously the Nationals, right? It was a great way to end the year. And this is what I sort of said when I was talking about somebody that wants to go to a tournament for the first time. Your goal should not be winning the tournament. Your goal should be making friends. Because once you make friends, all the other good stuff will come. And I'm the same. Like the majority of people that I now have in my life are pinball people. And I feel bad sometimes that I don't have my old friends in my life. But I just have so much more in common with pinball people. Yeah, but they know what kind of dirty bastard you were before. so I mean it's kind of clean slate look at it that way right where can people reach us they can reach us at finalroundpinball at gmail.com Instagram is finalroundpinballpodcast Twitter is at finalroundpin and Facebook just look up finalroundpinballpodcast thank you for the feedback we do appreciate it it means more to us than anything else it really does got anything else there Marty did I miss anything no I think we covered a lot today good I've got to pack for INDISC, and you've got to go to four pillars. Correct. And you get to produce this. Yay! I'm okay with that. Thank you, buddy. All right, we'll talk soon. Thanks, everybody. _(Acquisition: youtube_groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 105ab689-6c4f-49f8-b8a5-13f241df9138*