# In Before the Lock Episode 25 - Tariffs, Harry Potter, TPF Reactions and more

**Source:** In Before the Lock Live Streams  
**Type:** video  
**Published:** 2025-04-08  
**Duration:** 64m 20s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjH6pgwcsgg

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## Analysis

Rob and Davey discuss tariff impacts on pinball manufacturers and aftermarket vendors, with UK-based makers gaining unexpected competitive advantages while US domestic costs rise. They cover TPF reactions, Jersey Jack's Harry Potter announcement, and upcoming Stern Kong reveal on April 17th, analyzing how premature game reveals can damage sales hype and market positioning.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] UK-based vendors now have competitive advantage over US makers due to tariff structure hitting US suppliers harder than imports from UK — _Davey (Stumbler Pinball) discussing tariff analysis with UK perspective; confirmed by Rob's parts sourcing examples_
- [MEDIUM] Approximately 80% of pinball machine parts are sourced from overseas and subject to tariffs — _Rob citing Pinside forum discussion about component sourcing; sourced from unnamed industry participant_
- [HIGH] Dutch Pinball prioritizing non-US markets and delaying US shipments pending tariff clarity — _Davey showing announcement; confirmed by Dutch's official communication about Alice in Wonderland shipping strategy_
- [HIGH] Barrels of Fun holding prices on next release because parts were pre-ordered before tariffs took effect — _Rob and Davey discussing Barrels' production strategy and tariff announcement_
- [HIGH] Stern Kong reveal scheduled for April 17th in Chicago with factory tour and play sessions — _Rob confirming personal invite; details about schedule and dinner service at 6:30pm_
- [HIGH] Harry Potter announced by Jack Guinari at TPF as Jersey Jack's next game — _Rob and Davey discussing official announcement at TPF panel; Jack Guinari made casual but definitive statement_
- [LOW] Port Man podcast estimates JJP lost $8-15 million in potential sales due to Harry Potter/Avatar announcement timing — _Rob discussing Port Man's Pinball Podcast episode 614; based on ChatGPT analysis and marketing theory rather than confirmed data_
- [HIGH] UK tariff rate ended up at 10% instead of expected 20% — _Davey confirming UK-specific tariff outcome affecting Stumbler Pinball directly_

### Notable Quotes

> "we as a company were going to be less competitive against US makers. Um, because that's the whole point, right? Is to empower uh, you know, the US industry... but then... as a UK seller into the US, I'm going to have an advantage over US makers"
> — **Davey (Stumbler Pinball)**, early tariff discussion
> _Articulates the perverse inverse effect of tariffs on the pinball market where international vendors gain advantage_

> "all of the parts and everything would have been ordered 6 months or a year ago. Um um so it on the one hand it's awesome that they're keeping their prices static but um at the same time they can do that because you know all of the parts they've already ordered in wouldn't have been subjected to tariffs"
> — **Davey**, Barrels of Fun pricing discussion
> _Explains how production timing shields some manufacturers from tariff impact_

> "it's the cost to the importer that has gone up. Um, and it's just a difficult situation um for them to be in. You know, obviously Dutch want to get their games into the US... it's difficult from the customer's point of view because they thought they were going to be paying X for a game and now they're going to be paying X plus 20%"
> — **Davey**, Dutch Pinball Alice discussion
> _Clarifies the mechanics of tariff impact and customer sentiment regarding Dutch Pinball's pricing dilemma_

> "imagine your dad's coming in, right, and I whisper to you, be like, 'Hey, Davey, like he knows.' Yeah. It totally takes the energy out of the room... that's the argument... there's so much hype around this game... you want a day one sellout"
> — **Rob**, Avatar/Harry Potter announcement analysis
> _Illustrates the marketing theory about why premature reveals damage sales momentum_

> "the bigger question I suppose is whether the pinball as a industry can sustain those kind of price increases. I I don't believe that it can."
> — **Davey**, general tariff impact assessment
> _Expresses industry-wide concern about pricing sustainability post-tariffs_

> "Don't spend any more dollars out of your own pocket until you get this game because it is coming."
> — **Jack Guinari (Jersey Jack Pinball)**, Harry Potter announcement
> _The casual announcement style that allegedly prompted the surprise reveal criticism_

> "so it is what it is... there's going to be I don't think, you know, most people in the US aren't used to having to receive a letter from the US customs department asking them to pay fees"
> — **Davey**, tariff implementation discussion
> _Notes consumer-facing friction from tariff collection mechanisms_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Rob | person | Host of In Before the Lock, Electric Playground co-founder, produces toppers and accessories for pinball machines |
| Davey | person | Co-host, founder of Stumbler Pinball (UK-based), produces pinball mods and accessories; affected by UK tariff rate |
| Jack Guinari | person | Jersey Jack Pinball leadership; made the informal/casual announcement of Harry Potter at TPF |
| Barry | person | Dutch Pinball leadership; managing tariff strategy for Alice in Wonderland shipments |
| Melvin | person | Dutch Pinball team member; communicated tariff strategy details to Davey behind the scenes |
| Mark Sidens | person | Designer of Avatar (Jersey Jack game); allegedly caught off guard by Harry Potter announcement timing |
| Keith Elwin | person | Legendary Stern pinball designer; rumored designer of upcoming Kong game |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Manufacturer announcing Harry Potter as next game after Avatar; subject of announcement strategy criticism |
| Dutch Pinball | company | Manufacturer of Alice in Wonderland; prioritizing non-US markets due to tariff uncertainty |
| Barrels of Fun | company | Pinball manufacturer holding prices on next game; keeping costs static due to pre-tariff parts procurement |
| Stern Pinball | company | Manufacturer with Kong game reveal event scheduled April 17th in Chicago |
| Multimorphic | company | Manufacturer mentioned for Portal game demo at TPF; released own low-reflective glass product |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Boutique manufacturer; released 'Ghost Glass' aftermarket product |
| Electric Playground | company | Rob's company; produces pinball toppers and aftermarket accessories |
| Stumbler Pinball | company | Davey's UK-based company; produces mods and accessories; affected by 10% UK tariff rate |
| Texas Pinball Festival (TPF) | event | Major industry event where Harry Potter, Portal, and other games were announced/shown |
| Port Man's Pinball Podcast | media | Podcast discussing Jersey Jack's announcement strategy; episode 614 featured tariff/marketing analysis |
| Alice in Wonderland | game | Dutch Pinball machine; shipments being prioritized for non-US markets due to tariffs |
| Harry Potter | game | Jersey Jack Pinball's newly announced game; revealed at TPF in manner that drew criticism |
| Kong | game | Stern Pinball's upcoming game (King Kong rumored); reveal event April 17th in Chicago |
| Avatar | game | Jersey Jack game; announcement of Harry Potter successor caused controversy about design timing |
| Portal | game | Multimorphic game; demoed at TPF |
| Labyrinth | game | Barrels of Fun title demonstrating rapid production/announcement strategy |
| Medieval Madness | game | Classic Bally/Williams game referenced for pricing variability example |
| Pulp Fiction | game | Topper product by Electric Playground; deposits recently taken; 80-90% of parts already in hand pre-tariff |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Tariff impacts on pinball manufacturing and aftermarket products, Jersey Jack Harry Potter announcement and marketing strategy criticism, TPF (Texas Pinball Festival) reactions and game reveals, Dutch Pinball Alice in Wonderland tariff response and shipping delays
- **Secondary:** Stern Kong reveal event on April 17th, Post-TPF illness/superspreader event anecdotes, Barrels of Fun product diversification (Infinity Glass, Thunder from Down Under shaker), Parts sourcing and supply chain geography

### Sentiment

**Neutral** (0)

### Signals

- **[market_signal]** Tariff structure unexpectedly benefits non-US manufacturers (UK, Netherlands) over US domestic makers; US component suppliers adding tariff surcharges affecting domestic manufacturers more severely than foreign competitors (confidence: high) — Davey's analysis of UK vendors gaining advantage; Rob's discussion of US suppliers (DigiKey, Mouser) adding tariff charges; contrast with foreign makers shipping finished goods facing lower effective burden
- **[supply_chain_signal]** Approximately 80% of pinball machine components sourced from overseas; cabinetry uses Canadian birch, metalwork from China, glass potentially domestically sourced but uncertain (confidence: medium) — Davey and Rob discussing parts breakdown; unnamed industry source confirming metalwork imports; Rob explaining LED strips and component availability
- **[product_launch]** Dutch Pinball delaying US shipments of Alice in Wonderland pending tariff clarity; prioritizing EU and non-US markets initially (confidence: high) — Dutch Pinball official announcement discussed by Davey; strategy to wait and see before committing to US tariff costs
- **[market_signal]** Barrels of Fun holding prices on next game release due to pre-tariff parts procurement; Dutch Pinball unable to match strategy due to later production timeline (confidence: high) — Davey's explanation of Barrels' build-ahead strategy; contrast with Dutch facing tariff on current production run
- **[sentiment_shift]** Community backlash against Jersey Jack's casual/informal Harry Potter announcement at TPF; perception that surprise reveal was mishandled and damaged hype rather than building it (confidence: high) — Rob and Davey discussing Port Man podcast criticism; 184 heated comments on announcement; marketing theory about premature reveals dampening sales
- **[product_strategy]** Marketing analysis suggesting premature/informal product reveals can reduce day-one sales by ~20% (1,200 units equivalent to $15M revenue impact) by undercutting sustained hype and demand (confidence: medium) — Port Man podcast episode 614 analysis using ChatGPT market research; surprise party analogy; discussion of lost secondary market scarcity
- **[design_innovation]** Aftermarket manufacturers (Barrels, Spooky, Multimorphic) diversifying into retail products using same components as their games (glass, shakers, LEDs) for additional revenue streams (confidence: high) — Discussion of Barrels' Infinity Glass and Thunder from Down Under shaker; Multimorphic and Spooky's glass products; strategy of monetizing sourced components
- **[announcement]** Jersey Jack Pinball officially announces Harry Potter as next game after Avatar at TPF (confidence: high) — Jack Guinari's statement at TPF panel; Rob and Davey confirming official announcement; coupled with statement not to spend money until game arrives
- **[announcement]** Stern Pinball Kong game reveal event scheduled April 17th in Chicago with factory tour, gameplay sessions, and dinner service (confidence: high) — Rob confirming personal invite details; schedule beginning 10am with factory tour and game reveal; similar format to previous D&D reveal event
- **[business_signal]** Industry uncertainty about tariff sustainability; concern that pinball market cannot absorb significant price increases without demand contraction (confidence: medium) — Davey stating 'I don't believe that [the industry] can' sustain price increases; discussion of whether tariffs will stabilize or change further
- **[manufacturing_signal]** Manufacturers with advance parts procurement (Barrels, already-in-production games) can maintain prices; those mid-pipeline face tariff costs on new orders (confidence: high) — Davey explaining Barrels' strategy of ordering 6-12 months ahead; contrast with Dutch's current production timeline; Rob noting difficulty of 50% price increase absorption
- **[community_signal]** Significant confusion and debate on Pinside about tariff mechanics, who bears costs, and whether manufacturers are raising prices vs. dealing with import cost increases; 184 comments on Dutch announcement with mischaracterizations (confidence: high) — Davey noting heated comment section on Dutch announcement; discussion of misunderstandings about tariff application and cost distribution; Rob and Davey clarifying distinction between manufacturer pricing and importer costs

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## Transcript

[Music] [Applause] [Music] Welcome everyone to In Before the Lock. We've got episode 25 for you. I'm Rob with the Electric Playground. We've got Davey with Stumbler Pinball. Big show for you guys. A bunch of fun topics. Davey, how you doing? Robin Wrath, I'm very good, my friend. I'm very good. I've uh finally gotten over the the TPF lurgy. Um quick question. Did you get sick after TPF? You know, I heard about a lot of people that got sick. Um I didn't get a get sick till about a week later. I think it was a visit to the zoo that got me. Uh how how were you after that? Well, I was all right. I mean, I got ill. Um, but yeah, having spoken to people after I got back, uh, you know, some people were a lot sicker. Um, everybody seems to think there was like a co variant going around the floor. So, it's my first, uh, super spreader event. Quite excited about that. Um, and uh, yeah, I'm just I'm just pleased that I didn't get as sick as a lot of people. Davey and I did a walkthrough on the show, a little F1 inspired thing or we call it the pinw walk. Uh, that video is out on our channel right now. Well, I I think like half the people we interviewed told me they were sick, so I think I got lucky. Um, for sure. Um, but it seems like that's the thing with TPF. I remember this kind of storyline developing last year, too. Yeah, maybe, man. Um, you know, everybody I mean, look, if you think about pinball machines and, you know, I mean, we're not using hand sanitizer, are we? You know, when we're going up and playing these things. So, um, you know, it is what it is. And, uh, you know, it's all worth it in the end, isn't it? Definitely. Well, let us know how our audio levels are. We're trying to be a little uh more on top of that. Uh again, we got a big show for you guys. We're just coming off TPF. We're going to talk a little bit about some of the stuff we saw there. Uh we're going to be talking about tariffs because it's a hot topic. Anybody's talking about Yeah, it's a hot topic. Davey's been scouring the pin sides, getting lots of input. We've got some articles being posted about it. So, we'll talk about that. Uh we saw a ton of games getting uh shown for the first time at TPF. Uh one game in particular announced. Uh we've got uh Jersey Jack's um some movie. I can't What is that one? Um um something about a wizard of some type. Right. Right. Right. So we'll talk a little bit about that. Um and then uh we did play Portal uh from Multimorphic. We played uh Arcade. Merlin's Arcade. Arcade from Turner. Yep. Yep. And then uh I'm excited because uh just got an invite to see Stern's next game on the 17th of April up in Chicago. So, so that's 10 days away. 10 days away. Man, you you excited? I am. I am. Um I did it before for D and D. We got a video out on that. Um this one of course is highly rumored to be uh Elwin's King Kong, which is a major title. So, it'll be fun um to see that and hear from him uh directly and see a bunch of folks that I've uh got to know. So excited for that one coming up. So, we'll talk a little bit about that. Yep. Tell me a little bit about how you got that invite. Is it like a, you know, is it because you're a media personality or, you know, how does that work? Well, 50% of it is you, Davey. I mean, come on now. Yeah. Where's my invite? That's more to the point. That's the question I should be asking. Yeah. So, uh I think they they had so much success with it before they just broadened uh the pool. Uh Alec uh went with me and him just being uh invited with me, he was on the email blast. I think they're being pretty open with like who they bring into that is like as that kind of email list grows. So, so just to be clear, you're second tier. Is that what you're trying to tell me? That's that's upsetting, but you know, I'll take it. Yeah. So, uh it starts at 10:00 a.m. We've got a a factory tour and then they show the game for a couple hours. We got to play it last time. It seems like the schedule's pretty similar. And then they serve some dinner around 6:30. And then last time uh I I went to a tournament at Entertar Entertarium or whatever it's called. And uh that was like a $5 buyin and Roger Sharp was in the tournament so that was pretty cool. Oh, awesome. So yeah, hopefully uh hopefully we'll we'll be able to check some stuff out. Nick's Nick's going with me. Um so Oh, yeah. Cool. Okay. We'll do do some video for you guys. Awesome. Yeah, can't wait for that, man. Very very excited. But we'll uh we'll talk a little bit more about Kong later in the show. Definitely. So, so, um, obviously worldwide, probably on Mars, they were talking about tariffs, uh, over the last couple days. Um, it is major news. Uh, we're we're going to not we're not going to spend a whole show on it because, you know, it's just it's like we're just going to give you kind of some of our kind of thoughts on it. Um, there has been a couple articles come out today about barrels of funds pricing. Uh, Douch Pinball has come out with some info on it. Uh, Dave, you've been following a lot of threads. like what's your kind of thoughts on what you're seeing out there? Well, yeah, I mean, look, the recent announcements weren't unexpected, weren't they? I mean, I think all of us were kind of waiting uh for the main news to come through that there was going to be blanket tariffs on all of uh the US's imports uh and import partners. Um and obviously this affects um uh people like me uh massively and and people like you know you Rob as well but um you know I was obviously thinking about my business uh you know mainly due to the fact that 95% of our customer base is in the US. So um I was concerned that we were going to see a drop off in sales you know as those tariffs were applied. Now, uh, the first thing to note was, uh, from a UK perspective is that we were expecting a higher tariff rate than what we ended up receiving. So, we were expecting 20% and it ended up being 10%. So, I suppose you could say that's good news. Um, I know I wasn't as uh upset as I thought I would be uh based on that news. Um, but obviously we then, you know, everybody was sort of uh communicating behind the scenes, jumping on the pinball forums, communicating with other mod makers just to sort of see where everyone's what everyone's positions were based on the new news. Now, uh, the thing that I found most interesting, um, and strange about this was that, you know, before the announcement, I expected that when the announcement was made, we were going to find out that, um, that we as a company were going to be less competitive against US makers. Um, because that's the whole point, right? Is to empower uh, you know, the US industry um, to, you know, be stronger than what it is. Um, but then, you know, jumping on, you know, one of the pinside forums recently, I'll just pull it up here as well. This is, uh, Myth Pinball, who produces speaker lights, um, in the US, um, uh, he mentioned that, uh, he's going to have no choice but to put an extra 20% tariff search charge on all his products. Um, all of our USA vendors that we order parts from, such as Digi Key, this is Mouser, and companies like that who produce, who sell sort of individual parts, resistors, capacitors, that kind of thing. um already charging tariff search charges. This is not going to be good for our industry. Now that that was a very surprising read for me. Um and I suppose I should have thought about it earlier. But the reality is is that because um uh tariffs are going to be placed on uh you know it's a blanket tariff. So all parts coming into the US are going to be you know have some kind of price increase. If it's from China it's going to be even more. And we don't even know what that price increase is yet because the dust hasn't settled. Um, but the end result is is that as a UK seller into the US, I'm going to have an advantage over US makers as it currently stands. And I thought that was absolutely crazy and bonkers and something that was completely unexpected. And I guess Rob, you're going to be in a similar position. Yeah. So, um, a lot of a lot of the parts in our toppers do come from from China. Um, let's let's talk about a standard LED strip that you guys have probably put up in your kids' bedrooms. Obviously, you have them in your pinball machines. You're you have them in our toppers if you have them. That that part isn't made in the United States. It's it's just not not made. Um, and that's true of a lot of things. Um, I was talking with Jimmy with pin lights the other day about it and, you know, I I assumed it wasn't made. He he validated that for me. They don't make that part here. And to this point, um there's been a nice thing for small businesses uh with uh import fees. So So when you import goods into your country, you know, you as the importer pay those fees. Um that's true of uh these distributors who are going to be importing pinball machines, like the importer of the machine is going to have to pay that. And of course that has to be accounted for somewhere in in the equation. And for us um in a lot of small businesses there was a thing where basically any invoice under $800 allowed you to avoid that. So um for us making toppers like any specific given part usually didn't total over $800. So we were able to avoid that. And now if I understand it correctly from dollar zero dollar one uh we're going to be paying uh so so it does make make it very difficult to be competitive. I mean, the dust hasn't settled on it. Obviously, a lot of this tear stuff has been subject to uh pretty quick changes. Um, this one feels, of course, very different than that. Uh, but you're already seeing um companies being proactive about this. Uh, you've got uh for us at least, like in the case of our Pulp Fiction topper, which we recently just uh uh took deposits on. Uh we had about 80 to 90% of those parts like already in hand. So, we can avoid that on that particular item. But um it'll be interesting. I mean, of course, we're going to explore alternatives. Um we'd love to have stuff made in the US. We'd love to find ways to to handle it differently. Um but uh yeah, it it's not it's not going to happen overnight, you know, and and you know, I mean, some of these trading relationships get built up over the course of years. Um and you know my wife works in the fashion industry and uh you know uh during the last round of trade wars between the US and China um a lot of the fashion houses relocated a lot of their um production to Vietnam right and Vietnam was one of the Asian countries that saw some of the hugest uh tariff increases during the latest rounds. So you know these fashion houses have already relocated production once to Vietnam. You know they get a lot of stuff made in Turkey in Vietnam in Cambodia um in India and um and you know all of these countries are seeing tariff increases. Um I know the fashion industry in the US has been really struggling uh in recent years and this is only going to make it worse. So there's going to be so many industries affected by this. Um you know it's you know obviously and and pinballed as well. Um, you know, we uh so we've got a couple of people in the chat. Um, hey Charles Thomas, how you going man? You he say one of he just said the nice thing. We just t just for a sec. He's got a boy yesterday. That's great man. But he also said uh Dutch Pinball announced tariff info today. Yeah, absolutely mate. So um we'll get on to that uh now. Could just quickly show that announcement on the stream. Um, so I've been chatting with uh I've been chatting with uh Barry. Well, I haven't been chatting with Barry. I've been chatting with Melvin behind the scenes and he's been sort of relaying a little bit of info about, you know, uh how Dutch were trying to um I guess uh strategize the tariffs um and what they were going to do about their game. Now, as everyone knows hopefully um about Dutch, they are building Alice in Wonderland. It's just about to start getting shipped out to the first customers um in the in the Netherlands. It might have already arrived at some uh people's locations in the Netherlands. They're going to sort of uh spread out from there across the EU. Um but this most recent announcement um essentially says uh they're going to prioritize production of shipments uh uh for markets outside the US and essentially wait until um you know the last possible moment um you know just to to see how it plays out at this point. Um uh I'm not sure that they've uh mentioned I think so for people who are unaware Dutch um essentially guaranteed uh that they were going to be able to ship all units um by a certain date in 2025 was it uh or the start of 202. Well, it was it was you can you can get your deposit back if you don't get it within that time frame. Y yeah, that's right. So I think probably what is likely to happen is that um you know if if they can't ship to these people in the US they'll get their deposits back or something along those lines. That's not specifically mentioned uh in this announcement I don't think. Um but I yeah essentially it was just you know wait for the dust to be settled kind of things but it was pretty much uh I know that there was talk amongst some people that the 20% increase should be shared amongst the you know the customer and the distributor and Dutch themselves but this is pretty much saying that that's not going to happen and if you want your game early then you know you're probably going to have to pay the tariff yourself out of your own pocket. Um now the comment section was pretty heated I've got to say. Um, you can see there's 184 comments here. Um, obviously Neil jumped on. I jumped on too. Uh, there was a lot of uh, how should I put this? There's a lot of mischaracterization about what the tariff meant and where it was applied. Some people were talking about the fact that if Dutch already had their parts and they wouldn't have to put up their prices. Um, and a lot of people, I guess, accusing Dutch of raising their prices. Now, you know, it should be pointed out that Dutch haven't raised their prices. Their price is exactly the same as it always was. Um, it's the cost to the importer that has gone up. Um, and it's just a difficult situation um for them to be in. You know, obviously Dutch want to get their games into the US. They want people to have their games. Um, it's difficult from the customer's point of view because they thought they were going to be paying X for a game and now they're going to be playing paying X plus 20%. Um, so yeah, it's a really it's a really tricky one. I really feel for Barry and the team and I I hope it gets resolved soon. Yeah, I mean it's it's really tough whenever you've taken a deposit on a price um and you've got to make a call on that and obviously they analyzed it and probably talked to their partners along the chain and uh you know they communicated what they communicated. It's it's stuff my my dad and I are in on on uh Alice together and of course we're we're going to be making something uh for that game and it's like the timing of everything is really interesting because on some degree I want to wait because you know I want to possibly avoid that but on the other hand you know I'd like love to have the game excited about having the game and we want to build something for for the game too. So, you know, if if it doesn't come to the states, then suddenly your potential market for that um product is is has is harved. So, you know, I mean, I I guess that's a that's a small drop in the ocean compared to what sort of Dutch are staring down the barrel of at the moment. Um but, you know, it's a consideration and you know, it's just it just goes to show how farreaching these implications are. But, you know, speaking of staring down the barrel of things, um did you like my little segue there? That's amazing. That's amazing. I'll pull it up. I'll pull it up for you. Uh so towing the line, we got we got the Gladiators out there towing the line on this one. Uh Barrels did announce that they are holding their price and they haven't taken deposits yet. Um they have a a unique situation in that they've got a lot of competition uh with this release uh with Stern's title coming, with Jersey Jack's title coming. Um, and of course they're looking for competitive differentiators and they're analyzing the situation and they're deciding that they can do that. Um, I haven't I haven't dug into this article too much. Um, I guess um they're not really confirming pricing because it says as a reference point 105.99. Uh, but but what's the what's the uh what's the conversation on this? Anything out there that you've seen? Um, no. So I haven't really I mean look I think that I mean most of the comments that I read were people going, "Oh, well done." you know, thank thank you so much for doing that and uh you know, and and to write, you know, but I think it speaks uh I guess more towards their overall strategy of how they produce games. Um so much like how Labyrinth was, you know, sort of, you know, really just sort of came out of nowhere over the course of a couple of weeks and then suddenly it was ready to ship. you know, that's that's always been Barl's strategy is, you know, get them get the games ready, get them built, get them in boxes, and so that when you announce games are ready to go out the door. That's always the way that they wanted to approach these things. And so, by virtue of that strategy, um, you know, their next game, uh, will be, you know, in the same boat. So, all of the all of the parts and everything would have been ordered 6 months or a year ago. Um um so it on the one hand it's awesome that they're keeping their prices static but um at the same time they can do that because you know all of the parts they've already ordered in wouldn't have been subjected to tariffs. So they're essentially still uh building a pinball machine as though it was pre-Trump pre-tariffs, you know. Um and that's great news in terms of people who who want to buy their next game. Um, but it certainly doesn't mean that the next game after that isn't, you know, isn't going to have the same problems that everybody's going to have. Um, which is increased input costs. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I got to assume that they've got a lot of those parts already here. I think it'd be really difficult to do that, you know, otherwise, especially, I mean, we're talking about possibly 50% increase in in price uh on these these items, which across many many items. um it is um very very serious uh adjustment in your profit profit margins on something like this. Um so that must be the case. Yeah. And it's just you know the bigger question I suppose is whether the pinball as a industry can sustain those kind of price increases. I I don't believe that it can. Um, which makes me think that potentially, um, well, it'll be interesting to see what happens with Kong and, uh, Jersey Jack's next game, which is, uh, Harry Potter. Um, as announced by Jack. Um before we sort of move on to those games though, let's have a quick ju just stick on barrels just for a second cuz um interestingly um as part of uh the the news with tariffs and everything, barrels also um just announced a couple of new products as well. Um the Thunder from Down Under, which is a shaker motor. The naming got people thinking that they were going to release Mad Max or or something like that as their next game, but actually it was a shaker motor. So, there's that. Um, and they're also releasing some uh low reflective glass called Infinity Glass, which I thought was very interesting because um we saw Multimorphic recently announced their own version of uh of their clear glass of the non not low reflective glass. Um, and it's just interesting, I think, because um, you know, we're seeing, uh, manufacturers of pinball machines diversify their product range to essentially release, um, the the products that they're sourcing uh, for their games uh, onto the open market. So, you know, this Infinity Glass that Barrel's using, they would have been using that on on Labyrinth, uh, I assume. um the shaker motor likewise and and you know they're thinking well you know why don't we release these as a standalone product and diversify our product range which I think is really interesting uh you know we saw it in multimmorphic and now we're seeing it with barrels and and also we we saw it with spooky uh as well uh so it's kind of funny spooky put out the ghost glass which is an amazing name I love this picture holding up the glass I mean these are these are tariffree products I would assume here right these guys bought a bunch of this stuff and uh pricing on that at least yeah I I guess so. Well, well, this is this is the other interesting thing cuz the in that chat um that pinside chat which everybody should go and look at because there's a lot of really interesting information there in terms of where these products come from um in you know like what parts of a pinball machine um come from over overseas and which get built internally. Now, my assumption was that all the heavier parts like uh metal work and glass and cabinet cabinetry would all be made internally just by virtue of them being heavy. And so, you know, you would do your ass in shipping trying to get them get them pulled in, but that was refuted by uh I'm not sure. I think the glass is made internally potentially cabinetry I think as well. Um I think the cabinetry is using Canadian birch I think. So actually it is coming from overseas. Um but the metal work I assumed was internal. Um but somebody who sort of works within that sphere and in that industry said no way definitely that would be coming in from China as well. So you know there's a you know we're looking at like 80% um of the parts that going to a pinball machine are coming from overseas and will therefore be subject to tariffs. So it's quite a huge percentage. Um, but you know, hopefully the glass is a uh US-owned product and will be untared and remain at the prices that we're seeing. We shall see. We shall see. Um, well, I I think that's where we decided pre uh pre pre-show we were probably going to end it on tariffs. Uh, if you guys have any questions for us, let us know. I mean, I I know that right now it's just going to be on a product byproduct basis. Um, hopefully we're not ever having to adjust things in real time like some of these companies are. Unfortunately, their timing has worked out that way. Um, as far as you go, Davey, are you all your products good to go for now? Yeah, look, I mean, at this point, it's just a 10% tariff. Uh, I know that Kia Starmer, who's the UK prime minister, is trying to play a very calm and reserved game when it comes to um the, you know, the current US administration. He's sort of going for appeasement. Um, I don't think I think he's I think he's trying to stay off the radar. So, look, if it stays at 10%, then, you know, all we'll have to do is probably a bit of admin in terms of people saying, you know, where's my stuff? Why is it in customs? You know, I think there's going to be I don't think, you know, most people in the US aren't used to having to receive a letter from the US customs department asking them to pay fees. Yeah, what we are used to is seeing the price of Medieval Madness change. We're used to seeing the price of uh the Big Labowski change over the years based on lots of different circumstances. So, you know, we'll see that. You may see that with our products, too. I I hate to say it, but it's like, you know, from batch to batch, there's going to be different costs involved, you know. Um so, so it is what it is. It is what it is. All right. Well, and also, you know, a lot of us, uh maybe not all of us are optimistic that some things will shake out. So, we'll see how I hope so, man. I hope so. Gotta stay positive, man. So, uh Davey and I were uh at TPF and we caught wind uh that there was a panel um that we weren't listening in on. Uh they were talking about Avatar uh Jersey Jack and it was announced officially uh that What is my problem? Harry Potter. Harry Potter. Clearly, I'm a big fan. Big fan. Big fan. I did that the other day with him as well, man. Don't worry. I don't know why. I don't know why. So, so Harry Potter has been officially announced. Um, sometimes it's hard for us as consumers to like sort out all these rumors and and treat these things as fact versus rumors, but like this was a rumor. It had not been confirmed by any party uh privy to the information. And Jack Guinari with Jersey Jack uh kind of um casually uh said uh that the game was next. Um, he also coupled it with something along the lines of don't spend any more dollars out of your own pocket until uh you you get this game uh because it is coming. Uh Charles, which includes which includes Avatar, let's which which includes Avatar. Yeah, let's not get into that. There definitely a lot of commentary out there on this topic. Uh certainly some people feel like Mark Sidens, who was the designer of Avatar, uh was caught off guard with that. um he was there to celebrate something that is beautiful and amazing uh on so many levels. Uh and and that was kind of the wind was taken out of those sales. But um the reason I wanted to talk about this just because I feel like it has been beat to a dead horse, but from a uh I I uh happened to listen to the a recent episode of uh Port Man's Pinball Podcast. Um I'm going to give them a quick shout out on this. This is um this episode number 614. experts claim JJP uh to lose 8 to$15 million from Jack's blah blah blah. Um so so I haven't listened to these guys a lot. Uh but I I really enjoyed this episode because I was able to uh learn from it. Uh we recently uh released Pulp. Uh we did some teasers with it. There's obviously lots of different ways to to launch products and you're seeing that across the spectrum, but they the they decided to announce this in the way that they did. Um and I was really curious about this 18 8 to 15 million number. Um there's a so I don't you know remember the episode word for word but uh one of the really interesting things is the experts that he speaks of y was chat jptt we all use it. We all use it. Let's be honest. No no no definitely. But he he had an interesting way of claiming that that was a valid uh resource. This this guy's pretty fun. I had never listened to him real closely. I think this is a fun one to listen to. Um and uh so so basically uh on one hand he claimed that the use of chat GPT was valid in this nonscientific uh analysis because chat GPT is able to read uh in seconds the amount of content that it would take us years to to consume. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So depending on how you're feeding it, and I I'm not even up to speed with this tool as much as I could be. He was trying to say that that it was able to listen to lots of podcasts. Like so apparently he was saying like, "Hey, like I was able to tell it to listen to all this content, parse the content that was on Audible podcasts and form an opinion on this along with a lot of like uh market marketing data that a Harvard professor might know, right? like so it's able to be like smart about releasing products in general. Um and also the guy that was talking uh is an economic I'm sorry a marketing major too. So like he obviously trusts his ability to do this research. Yeah. So um he kind of equated he's he was really brutal as far as like how frustrated he was with the scenario so far as to say that like he now doesn't care about the game and won't talk about it anymore because he's just so upset about how they released it. Um and his his argument was uh or his analogy was that imagine um you're going to a a a surprise party for your father. He's turning 60 70 and there's like 50 100 people at this surprise party. Um and everyone's very excited, right? The energy for a surprise birthday party is a fun fun experience because you're you're excited about seeing the face of this person that you love walk into the room. Yeah. And imagine Davey, if your dad's coming in, right, and I whisper to you, be like, "Hey, Davey, like he knows." Yeah. It totally takes the energy out of the room. Everyone's energy. Everyone's talking about it. Oh, he knows. And it just really ruins the experience. And ultimately, the payoff of the entire thing that you've invested in goes away. Yeah. And the argument that he's trying to make is that there's so much hype around this game. like it's literally like the biggest game ever. I don't know if that's true, but he's trying to say like it's a big deal and it is. And you want a day one sellout, right? And a day one sellout also creates huge demand on all the the special editions or standard edition to where like instead of having to go to the secondary, you can't because the hype is so big. You have to go to the primary source which is Jersey Jack. and the amount of sales that result from that situation based on the research he did could affect at the end of the day the number of units sold by by 20% which is 1,200 units. Well, the retail value of 1,200 units is $15 million, right? So, I don't think it's out of the question to say like no matter how good the game is, if you're not hyping it to create a day one sellout properly, there's no doubt that it could have a 1,200 unit impact on the sale. Yeah. And you've got a lot of people now that are never going, then this is his argument basically, they're never going to forget that Jersey Jack fumbled this and they're going to go into the day one with a wait and see attitude because they're just going to believe that it's not going to sell out. And if it doesn't sell out and it could have sold out, it could have a 20% or more impact. So that that's an interesting analysis and it's something that we as as creators of products and how we kind of make those announcements to build that hype should be thinking about for sure. Yeah. No, totally. And you know, I think it's sort of a similar type of idea as to why we put so much effort into our packaging. You know, like you you want somebody to receive something and their immediate reaction to be like, I know this is going to be good because I can tell already by the look of the package, how much effort and work they put into that. If they put that much work into that, then it's going to be an amazing experience all the way through. like if you just receive a cardboard box with old bits of bubble wrap, you know, it you know, you feel deflated. And I think that it's the same thing with with this announcement, you know. Um you you feel like if they fumble that, then what else are they going to fumble, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I mean he he kind of made the argument is like literally if he was wearing a purple suit with a tie like at least just something to so that it's a string of of excitement rather than starting the entire thing with www. um and he and he felt like it's just like impossible to to to course correct on no matter how much money they spend on the video blah blah blah. So it's it's it's came cost really harsh, but at the end of the day, like the game is going to be the game, but the marketing is going to drive the FOMO. Sure. But and you know, even the fact that podcasts like this exist is a bad thing, you know, like even the fact that people are talking about it in this way rather than thinking what if it's this, what if it's that, oh my god, wouldn't it be great if there was Quidditch? Wouldn't it be great if it was, you know, like we're not talking about any of that. We're talking about the announcement and how bad it was and and how much money they could potentially be losing over it. Like all of these negative things that are secondary to what we should be talking about, which is how amazing the game's going to be. Yeah. You know. Yeah, definitely. And and that's the thing. It's like I don't even, you know, before I listen to that, I don't even know where I stood on it because I wasn't that interested in the game. So, we're talking about it here because it's an interesting analysis for all of us as we're thinking about things um to kind of weigh, but you know, the game is most likely going to be amazing and maybe we'll end up all not overpaying for it because there's not this huge demand, you know, on it. Yeah. As quickly. So, I'm just going to put this here because it uh blows sunshine up my ass. So, thank you very much, Charles. Very much appreciated, mate. Thank you. But we no I mean you know in terms of the announcement I mean we to bring it back to how it relates to mod makers and the strategies that we use for for announcements. Um you know it's something we talk about a lot isn't it Rob? You know like how we you know what's the best strategy and approach to um to releasing a mod. Um, and there's it's a it's a it's a bit of a balancing act sometimes because the uh you know sometimes you know you you want to get these things out there as quickly as possible uh in order to start generating hype. But, you know, but then is it just middling hype for a long period of time, whereas you'd be better off just slamming it all at one point, a bit like barrels does um and having mods ready to go out the door uh out out the door in order to capitalize on that hype. Yeah. You know, we we talked I talked with a couple of the guys at Barrels about this specifically, and they they believe that the second that you let uh uh the outside know about something, they start imagining what the thing would be, and the only reality is is that they're going to be disappointed in what they see because there's no way you're going to deliver on their flavor of the magic that they were looking for. Yeah, that is that's really interesting. And I I I believe that. I think Yeah. But but on our side, it's like we want we we always after the fact to be like, "Hey, like I wish you would have asked me what I thought about it or I wish you would have brought me in, you know, cuz I could have could have told you what I thought or or we're just excited about building it and we want to share it with the world and bring people into it." Uh but it's um you know, it definitely comes at a cost for sure. It's a double-edged sword for sure, isn't it? Um you know, and I don't I don't know if I've I don't know if any of us have really sort of cracked it. I mean, we're getting closer all the time. And you know, I know that um you know, you know, certainly mod makers uh have stepped up their production quality um of their promotional videos and things. Uh you know, Rob, you know, watching your latest uh pulp uh video, you know, was just so impressive in terms of the editing. Um Masters of Pinball, my good friend Bart always does a fantastic job of his editing as well. Um, and you know, it's just great to see, isn't it? Because like, you know, we all sort of try and push the, you know, push the bar um um out, you know, every time we sort of do these things. Um, and then, you know, seeing other people sort of having the same idea and also, sorry, trying to raise the bar rather than push bar, try and raise that bar. Um, you know, it's really inspiring, isn't it? because you know you sort of pick up on uh techniques and strategies that other people are using and then try and incorporate it into your own uh release cycles as well. Um but yeah, I mean and that's why it's so surprising to see you know what happened with uh the Harry Potter thing because that's you know can you imagine I look I mean I suppose we kind of do it on this as well too don't we? I mean, you know, I mean, the difference is is that, you know, we're probably announcing mods early on the pod to about five or six people who then don't communicate it to anybody else, you know, whereas doing it, you know, in front of the entire pinball community. It's a different scale. And look, like a new game is way more exciting than than a new mod at the end of the day. So, the stakes are the stakes are different. Um, obviously the games are typically already announced, so it's not like you're like waiting on pins and needles to know if there's going to be a um Harry Potter mod coming because you know there's Harry Potter mods coming from Davey if there's a Harry Potter game. It's it's just inevitable. Um, now now on the licensing front, you're probably not going to see a Harry Potter topper from us. I don't think I want to touch I don't want to touch that one. So I'll I'll kind of take the air out of the room on that one. Yeah, it sounds fun. All right, so let's talk uh let's talk a little bit about uh the other new releases that are sort of coming out recently. So, we we took our time and put out a video today. So, if you guys check out our YouTube channel, you can see a 1-hour walk through. Uh we did something kind of fun where we literally just filmed for an hour walking around the floor. Uh didn't really prep anybody that we were interviewing that we were coming by. So, you're going to get some kind of, you know, off-the- cuff reactions on a few things. Uh, but two of those interviews, uh, one of them was with Chris Turner with, uh, Turner Pinball, talking about his new game, and then we ended up interviewing, uh, Stephen Silver, who is, uh, the the video artist, uh, behind, uh, Portal. Uh, so yeah, Dave, what were your thoughts on those two two games? Oh, yeah. Well, I was um I thought they were great, man. And I mean, my only issue with Portal is that you guys were absolutely destroying me when we were playing the game, and I couldn't I couldn't hit the shots and do all the cool things that you guys were doing. But I was I was Oh, look, I think I've got a soft spot for Multimorphic. Um, you know, I think that I think that they put a you know, I mean, they're hugely innovative, number one. Um, I think that they're um the the tech and the the mechs that they're putting into their games are improving. Uh, on every release, they're using things that I've never really seen before. Um, in Portal for instance, there's there's like a a ramp flipper sort of thing where when the ball that center shot where the ball sort of goes past, hits the optos and then the flap opens up to then push the ball into the into the lock area in the back um was really exciting and I don't think I've ever sort of seen that before. um they're using a lot of uh so I think I'm not maybe somebody who's more familiar with multimmorphic can correct me but I don't think they've ever created ramps and mechs in the lower half of the playfield before or done a two-tier release which they're now doing for Portal. So Portal is getting released in two versions. one that just has the back section, which is the normal section that multimorphic, the module that um allows you to change out the games on a multimmorphic system, P3. Um, but Portal also comes with an upgraded or enhanced edition, I'm not sure what it's called, that has uh various other mechs in the lower half of the playfield as well. I'm not sure they've ever done that before. Um, so it's great to see that they are sort of um, you know, pushing the boundaries of what's capable in those games. And I think the general reaction to Portal was really favorable. Um, I know that people like Neil McCrae, who are generally pretty ambivalent to P3 releases, was really impressed. There was always long lines for the whole of um, the festival. Um and uh you know Jerry and the Multimmorphic crew seemed to be pretty buoyant as to um you know how everyone was uh how everyone was uh reacting to the game. Yeah. You know I I think for me it it made me question a little bit what I think I want out of the next pinball machine that I buy. Um as I as I contemplate buying like a DND or a Jaws, like I I feel like I kind of know what I'm going to get out of those games. And I think while that's on one side a really good thing, it's another it's challenging because like eventually after owning, you know, like Bond or Godzilla, like eventually I wanted out the door. Um and certainly that could happen with multimmorphic, but the excitement of a completely different play experience even at the cost of, you know, different flippers um in that experience might be worth it. Yeah. Uh, it also uh got me really excited about Final Resistance for the first time because in my head it's like if I'm going to buy Portal, which is generally a theme that I'm excited about, first one for Multimorphic, I can also uh play this other game. And I got to play uh Final Resistance for the first time thinking about actually being an owner of it rather than it just being a novelty. And I was like, "Wow, like this game actually kind of does play like a Stern and it's very fast and it's got those TNA kind of nostalgic sounds because it's basically TNA 2." So, um, kudos to those guys, uh, across the board for like creating a new thought process for me, uh, and I think a lot of people about owning their platform. as long as they kind of keep making those headways because they they've got a great customer base. Like we know that even if everyone isn't isn't on board with that, I think if they keep making those headways, it'll it'll pay off for them. Yeah. So, one of my biggest uh criticisms I suppose of the P3 system, and it's a silly one, but it means a lot to me, is the flipper plints. Um, so on a multimmorphic system, the flippers are about, I don't know, 3/4 of an inch, uh, there's about a 3/4 in plinth that the flipper buttons uh, sit on. Um, so in a platform would be probably a term that in America we'd probably be more familiar with. It's basically the buttons are on their own extruded platform, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And now there's a reason for that and that is because there's a screen um in the play field and so there's obviously some fit issues with that but it just feels different to a normal pinball machine as a result of that and I find that more off-putting than the different flipper feel and the screen in the lower half of the playfield. You know the screen I think is great. Um the flipper feel is different but not you know not um not something that you can't overcome. Um but the the the platforms for the flippers I just think make it feel different to a normal pinball machine and I think that's a big problem. Um, but interestingly, um, Scott Danesi, uh, also sort of sh I'm guessing shares my, uh, distaste for that and has created like a low profile version of the flipper buttons that are available on Pinball Life. So, if you share my um you know, distaste for for that, then you can jump on Pinball Life and and order a lowprofile version of the flipper buttons um to make it play a lot more like a normal pinball machine. So, that's fantastic as well. And you know, Jerry, if you're listening, and I doubt that you are, but if you ever circle back and listen to this podcast cuz somebody told you to, just incorporate the low profile ones into every game, man. like I'll and I'll probably I'll probably talk to you about it at some point, but I think that's such a you know such a good idea and the fact is it's it's you know technically possible. So get it get it done. Yeah, I think it there's there's an issue there that along with three buttons it's just it's just a lot um to of unfamiliarity. Um, and that in that particular issue, I didn't necessarily register what it was, but I I agree with you after, you know, really kind of analyzing it, but overall, uh, really cool offering. Uh, great theme integration. Uh, there's a lot of mechs in that one. Um, so great to see them making stride. So, so Turner. So, we got a new game from Turner. Uh, Merlin's Arcade. Merlin's Arcade. Yep. Original theme. a pretty cool concept in that it's basically like Merlin owns an arcade and he's got all these games and you're playing all these different games. There's like billiards and ski ball and uh foosball maybe. Yeah. Um and uh we uh I think everyone's uh generally s surprised to see a new game from them on this timetable and this timing. Uh, but generally, you know, a lot of questions about, of course, an unlicensed theme. Um, and and why are you making that move? Are people going to buy 500 of them, which is a lot. I think that's their number. Yeah. Um, and and I think the the most interesting thing, Dave, is you've kind of come across some conversations or or seen some conversations with Chris regarding, you know, that decision unlicensed themes. Yeah. So, um, so yeah. So, we've got a couple of headwinds, I think, for this new game, and I'm sure um Chris won't mind me sort of talking about them, but number one is the fact that, you know, the tariff conversation and stuff and and what that means for a new game from him, the fact that they announced a price uh before any of the tariffs were announced and stuff. And so, he's pretty much locked in on that now. Um or if he does raise the price, that's going to further complicate things. Um, and the price is higher than it was for Ninja Eclipse as well. Um, I think it's around 2K or possibly 3K more than Ninja Eclipse. And he's looking to sell more numbers of them, too. So, we got 500 units as you mentioned. It was only 100 for Ninja Eclipse. So, there are there are a lot of barriers to Merlin's Arcade doing well. I think um it's a massively competitive time. He's got a lot of big games to go up against this year. Um, and I guess the big question is whether his uh customer base is strong enough um and loyal enough and passionate enough that they'll sort of see him through this next uh cycle. Now, as you mentioned, it's a um it's an unlicensed theme. And I guess, you know, I'd always assumed that um the reason why people chose unlicensed themes was because uh they're cheaper to to make. Um, but I was recently reading uh a pinside thread where somebody, and I'm sorry I can't reference you cuz I can't remember who it was. Um, but somebody asked him about this this very thing. And Chris uh kind of said that he doesn't believe that to be the case. Um, and it didn't go into many details, but it sort of got me thinking about why that might be the case. Now, um, now obviously if you've got a huge IP like Jaws or Harry Potter, you know, you're going to be paying through the nose for for that um for that license and for that intellectual property. Um, however, you know, not every release is a Jaws or a Harry Potter. You know, there's a lot of uh licenses are a lot cheaper than that um to purchase. Now, the difference between a licensed theme and an unlicensed theme is that with a licensed theme, if you pay the money and you you get, let's say, all of the assets um of that property and they let you go to town on it, then you've potentially got music, you've potentially got call outs, you've got video clips, you've got uh uh storylines, you've got uh character characterizations. Um really the only things you don't have are playfield art and decal art um that you need to contract. Um but having worked with uh Melvin a fair bit um during the Alice project and stuff, I know that one of the biggest burdens for them in producing that game was uh getting the animations uh done and sorted. Um they took a long time. They cost a lot of money. They were really hard to direct um because you were using a third party to do it. You know, a lot of these companies, you know, you know, Stern have their own internal animation department, but a lot of these companies probably wouldn't. I'm sure JJP does as well, but a lot of these companies don't. Um, and so you, you know, you're contracting a third party to produce these things for you. And so there's going to be some uh, you know, a learning process involved in in that working relationship to make sure you're getting the best out of them. Uh, they might have multiple contracts running at any one time, so you might not be getting the content that you need at the right times. It's a it's a real it's a real struggle. And so um and and so there's there's those hurdles. Uh all you need to redo all you know you need to create all your own call outs if it's an original um IP um and create all the storylines um and do all the R&D behind all of that. Um, so I think probably, you know, we sometimes think that an original uh license is is an easier process. Um, and you know, but we have to think about the money that you're saving on licensing, you're then pumping back into the product to produce all these assets that you wouldn't get through a license. So, it's it's an interesting angle that I sort of hadn't really considered before um until reading this this pinside uh thread. What what do you think about all that? Yeah. I know. You know, we talked about this a little bit before and I was like that doesn't make sense. But then I started to think about um just creating that. Like it's one thing for the playfield artwork and the cabinet artwork is like if you're doing Goonies, you know, you're of course going to have to have artwork created for that, but you're going to rely heavily on movie footage assuming you have that and there's not going to be necessarily a ton of animations that you're having to create. Uh for a small company like his, um that could become very expensive. Um, I I know from talking to him that he is interested in doing licensed stuff, but I mean he's also, you know, he's kind of got this like family fe friendly theme thing that he's doing with both his games. Like Ninja Clips was was very family friendly and he also spent a lot of money writing an actual story book that included the game. Um, so maybe maybe he's hitting a section of the market that we don't as like hardcore pinball guys really uh really acknowledge because you've got Alice uh you've got Wonderland Amusements who clearly sold some machines and like I think that everyone thought that that Kickstarter wasn't even going to be successful let alone highly successful. So, um, my hope is that Chris is like, you know, kind of biting his, um, words as he communicates to the collector's community, but able to offset that with other markets, um, by his choices. Um, because he because it's a fun game. Um, it's actually a smartly executed IP. Um, it's just we live in a market now where it's like original comedies and movie theaters don't do well. It's all Marvel stuff. It's just like that's what we kind of like are are eating constantly. Um so but it's not as an artist it's not something I necessarily love to see. Um so I hope hope you guys okay with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we should also we should also mention as well like the innovation that he's put into Merlin's arcade as well. So um uh one thing that we've never seen before is uh I'm trying to remember uh what he called the technology. Could you Can you remember it was something flip? But it's essentially a postp pass kind of like button where it just happens. So there's two Yeah. Yeah. There's two buttons on the side of the cabinet and the top button um essentially does a a very small burst on the um on the coil. So then instead of getting like a really powerful flip that you would normally use to shoot the ball up the playfield, it just like lightly flicks the ball. And uh there's footage around of um I think Chris demonstrating the use of that where he's essentially just like flipper passing from one flipper to the other and and juggling the ball but in a just a very sort of casual way um between lanes. He does a finesse flip which is actually finesse flip. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite a good name. Yeah. Not as good as ghost class but not not bad. Not bad. Um and it's you know this is a really interesting idea isn't it because you know in a lot of ways we haven't really seen any innovation around uh you know flipper buttons and okay so let's let's have a think about this. Um, we've seen staged flippers so that the uh flipper buttons uh at different depressions can control upper flippers and lower flippers at a different different timings depending on how much you push the flipper button, which which enables you to essentially cradle a ball uh low and still use an upper an upper flipper to do things in in moments like multiball and stuff. And then more recently in Jaws, we've seen um the use of holding an upper flipper button using the center button uh in order to stage a ball halfway up the playfield and then still use your lower flippers. So there is some innovation happening around flippers, but certainly around flipper power. We've never seen anything before, I don't think. Um so this is a really exciting idea from from Chris and Turner. Um, and uh, I couldn't get it working at the time, but um, not like not like Chris was, but I think, you know, with a bit of practice, it could turn into like a really innovative uh, you know, tool for doing certain uh, things in the game. Um now whether that would replace uh you know existing techniques which is like postp passing and things like that which are sort of wellestablished ways of getting the ball from one flipper to the other in a safe way. I'm not sure. Um but it'll be interesting to see whether it um you know whether it carries on into his next title and possibly gets picked up by other manufacturers. Yeah. Yeah. We're and and we are seeing some interesting stuff. Uh, Evil Dead, uh, has a flipper in the sling. Um, and I actually learned that you can actually hold that flipper up and let that ball sit on top of the flipper. Uh, which is very similar to what you do with Jaws, uh, whenever you cradle cradle the ball on that right flipper. Uh, so definitely some cool stuff coming down the pipe on flippers. Uh, so we're going to wrap this up relatively soon. Uh, we've got, uh, a new game coming from Stern next week. again. I'll be headed to see that release. Uh we're all assuming it's Kong, uh Elvin's next title, but super excited to see what they come up with. I mean, like I got to think it's going to be packed, right? Like that's so pretty these days. Yeah, we we think it's going to be an island theme based on what did they do? They registered some kind of uh name that was like King Kong and the Island of Darkness or something like that. So, we think it's not going to be New York-based. probably going to be islands, probably going to be palm trees and stuff. Um, super excited about it. Um, uh, the word is that it's going to be a difficult game. So, it's going to be a toy sort of game, a game for tournament players is what the word on the street is. So, it'll be interesting to see whether that uh eventuates. Um, it's interesting. It's interesting how we talk about like if we know the title, we're building up all these expectations, but it it's it's so different from Stern to Jersey Jack because like Jersey Jack has been delivering non Wizard of Oz level games since Wizard of Oz and keeps doing that. And we have like Harry Potter, we believe it should be Wizard of Oz packed and we know it's not going to be. So, we're going to be disappointed. But then we have an Elwin game which we know is going to be amazing no matter what it is. And it's just like I don't know. It's a completely different thing. Uh so we we're just a bunch of talking heads at this point. But yeah, and look and look and Charles Charles who's who's you know very lovely stayed with us for the whole time. Thanks man. He he reckons it's going to be packed. Um and and we're already going to be disappointed, aren't we? like you know cuz our idea of packed and probably what the thing about an Owen is it doesn't have to be packed to be amazing right like that's the thing is all these situations are unique but I was I was disappointed by Jaws when it first came out you know I thought uh you know I thought that they'd really dropped the ball on it um but you know when you get it and you play it and you know you realize that um the nuances of it and you know how it plays and how the code relates to the story line and everything like you realize it is an incredible game. Um so it just goes to show that you know sometimes uh when games are released you can't always just react you know in a certain way you know you have to really get on it. You have to own it and play it for a while before you really understand whether it's a good game or not. And sometimes these things come out in the wash don't they? You know, sometimes games are creepers and, you know, they only sort of turn into cult sort of cult games, you know, after six months or a year when the code's fully fleshed out. So, uh, any mods, uh, in the works in your brain, Dave, or you just going to wait and see what comes out? Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely. We're going to go hard in on it, mate. Of course. Um, we're hoping it's going to be another Godzilla for us. um in terms of just being like you know I mean Godzilla was just such a fun game um to mod uh and you know both from mod makaker point of view and from the customer's point of view everybody just loved uh modding the crap out of that game. So I'm hoping Kong's going to be the same thing um you know and it'll probably you know go next to Godzilla over there when it finally comes in. Um and I'm just really excited man. I love Elwen Games. He's probably my favorite designer. I mean, he would be my favorite designer. I've loved all of his games. Um, so I'm just excited to see what his what, you know, what his next one's going to be, really. So, what you're saying is you want it to be packed, but not too packed. Lots of plastics. I mean, look, ideally, it would have been a buildings thing, right? Like New York buildings would have been right in my wheelhouse. If it's island themed, that's going to be slightly more tricky. Um, but I've got some ideas. I got some ideas. Well, you you kind of crossed that. You thought that was going to be an issue on Jaws and I think that you you got your head wrapped around that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're we're certainly doing a lot more, you know, I think ear, you know, early on I started doing mod making. Um, we weren't doing a lot of figurative stuff. We weren't doing a lot of sculpting. That's all changed now. You know, we are doing a lot of sculpting work now. Doing a lot of painting. So, um, uh, oh, look. Charles is also there. My buddy at Sunshine Laundromat. Oh, very jealous, mate. I wish I had a buddy at Sunshine Laundromat. Um, ordered all the black and white ones as well. Yeah, I've got I've got the 70th Godzilla as well. Um, so yeah, I would have I would have ideally liked to seen like a lot of buildings and a New York skyline kind of deal for King Kong, but uh if my in in terms of what I'd like to see in a game, you know, I love sort of like the the idea of an island sort of themed game bit like Congo, you know, palm trees and island theme like that's sort of, you know, greens and browns and stuff that that sounds amazing to me. So, I mean, from a pinball lovers point of view, I think it, you know, I think it sounds like it could could be great um from an aesthetic point of view. So, I'm really excited about it. Cool. Well, I'll be sure to bring my calipers and do some measurement for you, Davey, so you get a a leg up on all the competition, man. Can you just live stream it and then, you know, just Is Neil gonna be there? He can handle that for you. Yeah, I'm not sure actually. I'm not sure whether he is or not. Um, I but if he's not invited, I'll make sure I stick it to him. All right. Well, we'll uh we'll try to get we'll try to pin Elvin down and and give us some scoop. Uh so, expect a video from us one way or another. I think contractually I have to create some piece of content by going to this thing. So, you'll you'll see something from us. Uh everybody, uh have a great uh April. I'm sure we'll be back in a couple two three weeks uh to tell you about uh all the games that are coming. And uh as always, if you guys have any topics you want us to cover, hit us up on the various channels. Davey, it's always great to talk to you, man. Have a good one. Lovely to see you, mate. Love to see you, Rob. See you soon. Until next time, guys. Bye. [Music]

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 10ab7f34-f427-4cf6-b0cc-f1f5d505ec14*