# Dirty Pool Podcast - Ep36 - Pinball Clocks with Philippe Grégoire of Ayscrim Studios **Source:** Dirtypool Pinball **Type:** video **Published:** 2026-07-14 **Duration:** 90m 45s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUxrfzGcX8w --- ## Analysis Philippe Grégoire of Ayscrim Studios discusses his journey creating licensed pinball clocks using digitized Gottlieb score reels and Arduino electronics. He shares his path from casual pinball collector to small-scale manufacturer, covering the technical development process, licensing negotiations with Gottlieb, and practical insights on exhibiting at pinball conventions like Pinball Expo. The conversation explores the mindset of niche hobbyists building products within the pinball community and the importance of in-person events for maintaining enthusiasm and generating sales. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Philippe Grégoire legally licensed Gottlieb artwork for his pinball clocks, taking the legitimate licensing route rather than gray-area fan modifications — _Philippe explicitly states he pursued official Gottlieb licensing and discussed this with other licensed vendors at Pinball Expo_ - [HIGH] His first Pinball Expo booth with the Space Girl clock design sold 20 units within four hours — _Philippe directly states: 'I sold if I'm not mistaken uh I think I had made 20 of them and then they all sold within uh like four hours'_ - [HIGH] D. Gottlieb & Co. score reels cost $400-600 per unit on Marcos, making them impractical for a sustainable product business — _Philippe describes researching cost barriers: 'I saw that these core wheels were on Marcos, if I'm not mistaken, 600 bucks or 400 and that's just the reels. No electronics, no nothing.'_ - [HIGH] Philippe works in NDT (non-destructive testing) with access to mechanical and electronics engineers who helped develop the clock prototypes — _Philippe states: 'I work in um NDT which is non-destructive testing and that's we do hardware electronics software uh mechanical design for uh inspection devices. So I at work I have electronic engineers I have mechanical engineers'_ - [MEDIUM] Booth setup costs at pinball expos range from $250-400 for single vendor tables — _Philippe states: 'typically you'd have like a single uh you know single table and then that's going to cost you like between 250 and 400 bucks'_ - [HIGH] Rob Burke personally called Philippe to convince him to exhibit at Pinball Expo despite his initial hesitation — _Philippe describes: 'he called me up and he said he kind of convinced me uh I said oh yeah you know I'll wait till next year. Next year I'll have more time to prepare blah. Then he said, um, uh, yeah, you know, you never know what's gonna happen between now and next year.'_ - [HIGH] Philippe uses a knockoff Pelican case (roughly $150) that fits five clocks for convention travel — _Philippe states: 'I bought the Pelican case you have to watch what's not the Pelican brand I went on Amazon and I took like some knockoff cheaper... I think it cost me a 150 bucks or something like that... I can fit five clocks in there'_ - [HIGH] In-person convention events generate significantly higher sales volumes than online/direct sales periods — _Philippe states: 'at shows you sell always much more stuff than you would not at a show and then you meet the concentrated amount of pinball people in one spot that are expecting to spend money'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I never sat down to do any kind of computation of is this a good business idea because I knew the answer the answer is no you know" > — **Philippe Grégoire**, N/A > _Reveals the motivational driver for niche pinball product makers is passion/creative fulfillment rather than profitability calculations_ > "opportunity doesn't knock twice. So I figured, yeah, you know what? Okay, I'll do it." > — **Philippe Grégoire**, N/A > _Captures the moment Philippe decided to exhibit at Pinball Expo, showing how convention timing pressures drive small vendor participation_ > "you can have the coolest thing in the world if if nobody knows about it like what's the point?" > — **Philippe Grégoire**, N/A > _Articulates the importance of in-person marketing and community presence for niche product makers, despite creator discomfort with self-promotion_ > "It's meeting the people that's the most like uh like the excitement like like the thing that you're excited about and that you build and then people are excited about it as well." > — **Philippe Grégoire**, N/A > _Emphasizes human connection and immediate feedback at conventions as the primary motivation sustainer for small creators_ > "I'm doing this so I can come concrete floor and then so I can pay for the trip thing" > — **Philippe Grégoire**, N/A > _Shows the economic reality for micro-vendors—conventions are break-even ventures, not profit centers_ > "There's a lot of gray area in the pinball kind of hobby world when you're making like stuff. But you went down the absolute legit road." > — **Dirtypool Pinball**, N/A > _Acknowledges the community's casual IP approach while highlighting Philippe's unusual commitment to formal licensing_ > "The thing with pinball machines, I think you either own one or you own many. that many people own two of them because then it starts, you know, it just starts rolling." > — **Philippe Grégoire**, N/A > _Captures the well-known pinball collector phenomenon of compulsive acquisition_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Philippe Grégoire | person | Canadian pinball clock designer/manufacturer, owner of Ayscrim Studios, creator of licensed Gottlieb pinball clocks using Arduino and 3D-printed score reels | | Ayscrim Studios | company | Philippe Grégoire's small pinball clock business; name is a play on 'ice cream studios' in English pronunciation | | Gottlieb | company | Vintage pinball manufacturer whose artwork and score reels are licensed by Ayscrim Studios for use in pinball clocks | | Rob Burke | person | Founder/organizer of Pinball Expo; actively recruits vendors and invited Philippe to exhibit; runs the primary North American pinball convention | | Pinball Expo | event | Annual pinball trade show/convention where Philippe exhibits; described as the key venue for reaching concentrated pinball purchasing audience | | Brad Albright | person | Pinball artist who creates wood-based licensed artwork; collaborated with Philippe on Space Girl clock design; part of creative circle within pinball maker community | | Dirtypool Pinball | person | Podcast host for 'Dirty Pool Podcast' where this episode was recorded; engages with Philippe about pinball clock business and community dynamics | | Straight Down the Middle | media | Competing pinball media outlet; referenced in context as alternative pinball content platform | | Pinball Pimp | person | Pinball vendor with licensing deals; mentioned as someone Philippe consulted about the licensing process | | Ken Head | person | Pinball vendor with licensing agreements; consulted by Philippe regarding licensing approach | | Artovision | company | Maker of licensed arcade game frames; vendor at pinball expos; part of creative vendor community | | Steuart | person | Operator of Artovision; creates licensed arcade frames; collaborates with pinball vendors at conventions | | Pentastic | event | Spring-based pinball convention that Philippe attended; described as closer to his Canadian location than Pinball Expo | | Texas Expo | event | Pinball convention where Philippe exhibited; had booth in 'orbit loop' area outside main vendor space | | Pinside | platform | Online pinball community forum where Philippe posted his initial clock project and received positive feedback | | Space Girl Clock | product | Philippe's first collaborative design with Brad Albright; sold 20 units in four hours at first Pinball Expo appearance | | Atlantis Clock | product | Early prototype pinball clock made with Philippe's own design; displayed in his studio | | Surf Champ | game | Gottlieb game; Philippe's first score reel clock project based on this theme | | Tales from the Crypt | game | Pinball machine Philippe was restoring when he conceived the clock idea | | [name withheld pending review] | company | Pinball parts supplier where score wheels were priced at $400-600, making them cost-prohibitive for clock projects | ### Signals - **[design_innovation]** Philippe digitized and 3D-printed Gottlieb score reel mechanisms using Arduino control instead of sourcing vintage parts, enabling scalable production of pinball-themed clocks (confidence: high) — He solved the cost barrier of $400-600 vintage reels by having engineers create CAD models for 3D printing and custom PCB electronics, documented on Pinsite - **[product_strategy]** Philippe pursued formal IP licensing with Gottlieb rather than gray-market fan production, positioning his business as legitimate within a community that typically operates in legal gray areas (confidence: high) — Host notes Philippe went 'the absolute legit road' and Philippe consulted with other licensed vendors (Pinball Pimp, Ken Head, Rob Burke) before pursuing licensing - **[market_signal]** Micro-pinball vendors operate on thin margins where convention attendance is primarily break-even (covering booth costs and travel), with profit motivation secondary to community engagement and creative fulfillment (confidence: high) — Philippe explicitly avoids profitability calculations; convention sales barely cover booth fees ($250-400) and travel; primary value is meetings and maintaining enthusiasm - **[venue_signal]** Booth location and product type significantly affect sales velocity at pinball expos; compact, affordable items (pins/stickers) sell in volume; expensive artisan products require higher foot traffic and brand awareness (confidence: high) — Philippe sold 20 clocks in 4 hours at Pinball Expo main space but expressed concern about peripheral booth locations; pin snake vendor sold out quickly on commodity pricing - **[content_signal]** Philippe's controlled documentation of his clock development on Pinsite created community engagement and presold interest before formal licensing, validating the product concept (confidence: high) — Philippe posts project updates and received unsolicited requests to purchase before having licensing; used documentation to position himself as knowledgeable, not DIY amateur - **[community_signal]** Pinball convention vendors form informal creative networks with mutual support; low competition mindset despite selling similar product categories; vendors prioritize community engagement over booth isolation (confidence: high) — Philippe collaborates with Brad Albright, hangs with Artovision/Steuart, not at booth 'much' during events; views adjacent vendors as collaborators not competitors - **[personnel_signal]** Philippe leveraged his professional NDT engineering environment (access to mechanical and electrical engineers) to prototype and develop his commercial product, using informal compensation (rum) for intellectual contributions (confidence: high) — Philippe had mechanical engineer friend create CAD models on lunch break; electronics engineer built PCB in exchange for rum bottle; outsourced complex technical work - **[event_signal]** Pinball Expo organizer Rob Burke actively recruits small vendors and uses social pressure/urgency tactics to overcome hesitation, recognizing value of diverse product offerings for attendee experience (confidence: high) — Rob called Philippe personally to persuade him to exhibit, used 'you never know what's gonna happen' argument citing COVID precedent to overcome postponement excuses - **[sentiment_shift]** Philippe experienced initial over-expectation management issue after first expo's 20-unit sellout but resolved by reframing success metrics; ongoing motivation depends heavily on in-person community reinforcement rather than sales targets (confidence: high) — Philippe set unrealistic '20x250 days' profit expectations after first expo; colleague advised against reproducing that outcome; now maintains motivation through conventions and personal connections - **[operational_signal]** Small convention exhibitors develop specialized shipping/transport solutions (hardcase luggage, oversized/weight limits, sample vs. inventory strategies) to manage fragile, expensive products; logistics costs are significant portion of convention expenses (confidence: high) — Philippe invested $150 in Pelican knockoff case for 5-clock capacity; researches weight/size limits; brings samples with discount codes instead of sell-it-now strategy - **[market_signal]** Pinball conventions create artificial demand concentration where buyers arrive with purchasing budgets and purchasing intent; offline/between-show periods show dramatically lower sales velocity despite product quality remaining constant (confidence: high) — Philippe notes dry periods between expos where 'haven't sold anything in a few weeks' yet conventions generate 20+ sales in hours; buyers come with spending mindset at shows - **[design_philosophy]** Philippe's design approach was motivated by practical constraints (high cost/noise of vintage reels) rather than aesthetic goals, leading to pragmatic digitization that enabled business viability (confidence: high) — Original Gottlieb reel project failed due to noise at 35V; $600 sourcing cost eliminated business model; Arduino/3D-print solution emerged from cost/practicality barriers, not design preference --- ## Transcript Hello everybody. What's going on? Oh, Phipe, you're a little large. I got to fix you. That's my bad. Uh oh. Am I large now? No, we're I'm messing this up. It's amateur hour here. [laughter] All right, whatever. Anyways, uh we fixed it. Welcome everybody to the next episode of the Dirty Pool podcast. Uh we're talking today about making pinball related [music] products. the journey of a very particular product uh which is none other by Philip Greg Greg. Did I do it right? [music] That's too bad. That's too bad. There's no good way to say it in English. Yeah. There's no way there's no good way to say it. The the French accent is just like a mind-boggling mystery to me. I just I can't I just can't. I'm good with uh with hard to pronounce names for stuff like my company and uh my last name. Yeah, I don't know why I do it. By the way, it's Ice Cream Studios for people that are unfamiliar with the pronunciation. We'll get to where that came from, but I just to fully introduce you. So, you've created a niche product inside of an already niche hobby, which I think is fascinating and pretty much dives into the kind of like pinball fandom, the ecosystem of pinball people. But the clock, the original clock came from the idea of converting Gotautle reels into a functioning clock with an Arduino powering it essentially. Yeah, absolutely. So, I was I was restoring pinball machines and then I traveled to uh Seattle for six months for work while I was really into the my my uh mo most intense period of collecting and restoring stuff like that. And then I sort of had that this this hankering for playing around with stuff. So, I bought a score wheel off eBay for whatever the reason, just took it apart, cleaned it up, and then I figured I'll do something with that at some point. And then that ended up being I said, "Hey, how about a clock?" So, I did a clock with an actual score reel. The So, it was a Surf Champ um themed one. And then, uh, if I'm not mistaken, these score wheels work off 35 volt. So, I had this uh was more high voltage and it's super noisy. That's the thing. So, I think I had it back here somewhere when I first did it. Then at midnight, it goes ta and then we're like in bed like, "Oh, what's up?" So, that was it. But that really gave me the idea and and then I figured, all right, and and then I just set it aside for a few years. Um, and then at some point, I've always got all these projects going and I figured, okay, I got to pick one now and just do something with it. So, that's the one I picked, which is the least lucrative and the most complicated of them all. But then I stuck with it. Maybe that's the reason. Well, not the non-lucrative part, but the complicated part, I guess. I don't know. So, at some point you were must have been like, "Fuck using got reels. We're going to switch over to something a little more like not homegrown, but just something a little more applicable as you expanded the business to do additional clocks." Um, but before we dive into that, I just want to give a pre brief synopsis of like what today we're going to talk about not only your business and what it's like to create such a product, the idea behind getting into the licensing because you legitimately license the artworks from Gotle to use in these clocks, which I know that there's a lot of gray area in the pinball kind of hobby world when you're making like stuff. Uh, but you went down the absolute legit road. [laughter] Yeah. Um, and then of course like what it's like to bring this to uh expo or any other convention for people that are just makers and coming up with ideas. So that's kind of the outline for today. Uh, but before that, let's dive into you specifically tackled uh EM machines and you have a very large collection it seems of of EM games. I just it seems like your fascination is with that time period. What got you into pinball? What got you into the EM specifically? And uh yeah, what started that? So, what got me into pinball? Uh I I I used to well I still I still play I still have a band. I play with with friends but less and less often. And then at some point we played a show in another city and we slept at a guy's house that had uh pinball machines in his living room. And I remember uh we gambled on I think he had a fire and he had a escape from Lost World and he had a skateboard and we we gambled on that and we had the best time and then I thought, "Hey, this guy is pretty much my age. He's got pinball machines. Why not me?" And then from there I got Good logic. I like that logic. [laughter] They were in the living room though, so you can imagine like he he was single, you know? So, uh, so I I got him in the basement here. You could be in a relationship and have pinballs anywhere in your house. You just got to be in the right relationship. Just saying. Yeah. You're right. [laughter] You're right. You're right. And uh but but in Canada, we have basements. So uh so if it's not in the basement, that tells you something in Canada. But yeah, so I I bought a Maverick and then I I got a Hulk got for my buddy. And then and and the thing with pinball machines, I think you either own one or you own many. that many people own two of them because then it starts, you know, it just starts rolling. So, for a bit I had just the Maverick and then I wanted to stick with the card theme. So, I got a card uh whiz got card wiz and then it wasn't working at first and I I I had to figure it out, you know, I had to figure out the schematics and then then back then was RGP. I had to go on RGP tried to figure it out and then the the day I finally managed to get it going. Man, I had more fun than playing. Oh, sure. You were responsible for the A lot of people don't understand that there's like kind of like a romantic relationship with a pinball machine. You know, they're mechanical systems. They need, you know, car people get it. You know, like it takes the same level of kind of like maintenance almost, especially EM. Yeah. and and you were saying it's like a niche within a niche, but there's also like different ways to appreciate it. You know, you can like the art, you can like to play them, you can like to uh you can like to fix them, you can like all of it. But yeah, so so uh so that got me going and I really like the Gordon Morrison. Uh I I like old stuff, you know? I'm into like retro stuff and all that. So I really like that era of it. And then the wedge heads are like to me the you know the the god the Gordon Morrison wedge heads like I have right here and here. And that's that's Yeah. Yeah. That that's just the artwork. And I'm I'm really theme driven. I like the art. And then um I'm sorry, what was the question? Oh, how I got into pinball. Yeah. So so that's that's the story. This is it, man. [laughter] There's so much to love about pinball. That's the answer right there. Um, I also find that the the Wedge Heads are some of the best like fun playing games of the era. Like there were a lot of like uh transitioning ideas in that time period where they were just trying to jin out games like almost like formulaically, but the Wedge Heads had like a lot of more like Highand like there's just a lot of games that have a lot more going on to them in the in the godly wedge. Well, one thing of course that's cool with the wedge heads is that Oh, we lost your audio memory. Oh, and you're back. Okay, thank you. Um, I think my my girlfriend's watching upstairs, so Marie, turn off cutter. Don't she's she earns the right, man. She's she lets those pinball machines in the house, right? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Uh, but yeah. So, uh, yes. So, the wedge heads, what's cool is, of course, there wasn't memory mechanisms back then. So, so it keeps the game is more involved a little bit, but also like they're easier to move. They look good. there. Uh, but but I think the the multiplayer experience you get is for from EM or solid states because the screen's always up there in your face. You always kind of know where you're at in the game. you it's it's the rules aren't like you know when you play the newer games at some point you thought you had a good ball and then the other person is just exploding the the thing next to you and like what what happened like and so I think for multiplayer they're super fun but yeah for for just the looks of them to me like the the godly wedge head is the the Cadillac you know it really it really is like a like I don't know like a Pontiac GT or something like that or GTO you know what I mean they're like they're the hot rods most of the pinball community, I would say. Yeah. Um, so at some point you were like, I should build a clock, right? Like I like what was what was the thing that went through your head? You're like, I'm going to take on this project. I'm going to take this busted ass reel and I'm going to try to make it function inside of a small box as a clock. Yeah. you know, it's it's uh I have a lot of ideas and then uh I was u um if I'm not mistaken, I was restoring a uh Tales from the Crypt and I think I was waiting for parts or it was raining or I needed to paint. I forget what it was and I thought, you know what, let's let's do it. I'm going to get I'm going to get this clock done. And then when I saw it, I was like, oh man, this is very cool. I posted the whole thing on Pinsite and people were like, oh man, this is awesome. And I I knew it was I had the vision already. I knew it was cool. But then I figured I can't reproduce that. First I looked into how do I get score reels, but you know there's a limited amount of them. It's noisy. It's high voltage. It's all the bad things. I looked at some point, you know, the Welli and the uh what's it called? The uh the Blue Ribbon and Primus. I forget what the other ones are. Yeah. But what's the name of the Papsu Ribbon? That's not the name, is it? I think it's called Paps, right? Or maybe it is not chat. What's What's the What are all the Wo Nellies? We'll do a little mini trivia in here. Primus, Paps, Blue Ribbon, and Wo Wo Nelly Big Juicy Melons. Oh, yeah. And Kasa Bonita if you count that one. That's where Oh, can Crusher. That's Oh, that's right. Can Crusher. There you go. Which I love that one cuz I love the What's the band? It's um uh Red Fang and then it's PBR and it looks so cool. Anyway, so long story short, I looked into that and then I saw that these core wheels were on Marcos, if I'm not mistaken, 600 bucks or 400 and that's just the reels. No electronics, no nothing. So I figured and that's already pinball people love paying premium prices for stuff. But if you're starting, if your baseline for buying the reels to even begin the project is $600, that's a lot. Yeah, but that could have worked I imagine as well. But in any case, so I figured, you know, I'll just tinker around and I I'll try it out. So, um, yeah, just and and you see the picture that I think I sent you. I'm currently showing them while you're while you're talking right now. We're looking at one of the Arduino driven uh reel, not the uh not the actual like uh got one. I just I just got going. I learned and and basically at work I I I work in um NDT which is non-destructive testing and that's we do hardware electronics software uh mechanical design for uh inspection devices. So I at work I have electronic engineers I have mechanical engineers and nowadays to get going on all this stuff you can use AI to get you get the wheels turning but when I got started you didn't have that. So, I'd go to work and then I'd go see the mechanical engineer guy and I I I brought him a reel, a score reel. I said, "Hey, can you make this for me in CAD so I can 3D print it?" And then he did it on his lunch break. And then the electronics, I took my my tinkered soldered thing. I took that to the electronics guy. I said, "Hey, can you make that for me so I can do a PCB out of that?" And then I paid him with a bottle of rum if I'm not mistaken. And then acceptable payment work hours. If Yeah. if if anyone's listening, no work hours went into into this. But um so yeah, that's that's how I I managed to get it going. And then at first um and then I did actually it's kind of small back here, but I have the first prototype I made with my own design, which is an Atlantis clock I got back back here. And then uh I posted that on Pinite and again people were like, "Oh, can I get this? Can I get this?" Then I didn't have the uh the licensing for it. So I figured I'm going to first produce a batch with no artwork. And that was to me a big um how would I say a big a big a big step a bit nervous because I figured are people interested only in the fact that it's Gothleb stuff or are they interested in the product itself? So when I put it up for sale at this point, were you planning on it being a like business or were you just like I'm going to sell this clock because I put so much time into it and it's such an interesting personal project. I think it was always a I always had this vision like the minute I did this this got one I figured I want a gutly license and I want to make this and and but I never sat down to do any kind of computation of is this a good business idea because I knew the answer the answer is no you know so I I I I didn't want to get the answer so it was always very incremental I'm going to do a batch of 10 I'm going to do a batch of 50 I'm going to uh I'm going to uh to fix this part that part And then uh and then to get to your uh actually this takes us to the expo uh kind of thing. How how how to go to the um you know when when I first went to pinball expo I talked with people that had licenses like Jeff the Pinball Pimp guy and then um what's his name? Oh no, we lost your mic again. Also, I just love the idea that there's a Jeff the Pinball Pimp. Oh, okay. You're back. [laughter] Yeah. So, I talked like to Rob Burke and Ken Head and these people that have licenses and then um that that then I figured, okay, I'm going to get some traction and then I'll give it a shot. And then that's what happened. It worked out. So, but I figured I'm not going to get two shots because I don't think I'm small pickings and I they don't have that much attention for me. So, I better get my things straight first time around, which I think I did because here we are, you And you've been at so many so many expos. I'm curious how many. But before we do that, I want to unmute the prototype servo of the clock flipping. It's such a satisfying sound. I realize that this isn't the mechanism you use now, but the the real clicking on the uh testing clock. What are we talking about now? I'm I'm I'm on the pin side. You're So for for as you had mentioned in your thing, there is a link. I'll include it in the description later, but it is essentially the entire journey of your development of the original project. You go into everything from failed prototypes to the cabinet construction to, you know, you looking up circuit board issues and different MOSFETs and transistors that are proper for it, etc. Uh, so it's absolutely fascinating read. Uh, again, I'll include it in the description, but I'm playing one of the videos that just has the original reel like actually clicking through and it's just it's just Oh, yes. Yes. Such a great click. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, for the people at home, I only see Jeff and myself. I don't see any other stuff on my screen right now. So, uh, which we were gonna do, but just in the sake of bandwidth, just to make sure that the the internet, you know, it's uh Yeah. Um, and um, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So, okay. So, sorry. And about about this thread, one thing is it it was always like a build in public kind of thing, you know, where I I you show as you're building, but a control build in public. So basically what I do is cuz I I always figured I want to sell these at some point. So I don't want to don't I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing. So I I I it was sort of a controlled thing where okay once I figured it out now I'm going to I'm going to tell the whole story which is a bit backwards because I could have gotten help but that's the way I did it. You know I mean I think that there's good pros and cons to both of those. seeing the documentation of it. I I just it's so most people, a lot of people, myself included, when they're doing something creative, you don't think to like document it, right? You don't think you're working on something unique or whatever the creative process is until after the fact and then it's too late. So, a lot a respect for for you and many other makers that think about like, hey, I should document this experience just in case. Just in case. And here we are, right? Um, yep. So, so you've been to So, for setting up a popup at a convention, let's talk about the little bit about the process of that and then we'll we'll get back to some of the EM stuff for people that have a product and they're like, I want to bring this to a convention. What is the process like that look look like? Way way easier than you think if you're in the same country that you will be going uh to do the expo at. So, I Good thing you live in America, right? Uh yeah, I'm in Canada and going to the US that is a a thing and it's not a US thing. It's a going to a different country thing, you know. But um but yeah, if you want to go if you want to go to an expo, it's it's pretty simple. You just sign up and then you pay whatever it costs to go and and you go and that's it, you know. Um um like one uh what did I want to say about this? Okay. Well, I I I I lost my So, like for setting for setting up like booth space, for example, not even just to go and view, like if you want to set up product in order to have potential sales at some place like Expo, do you contact Rob Burke and you're like, "Hey, I'm interested in getting a spot at Expo." you you no you just go directly on the website and for all of them there's like a vendor uh section and then you go over there you see the pricing and then typically I I I don't want to make things up but it's all public anyway but it runs from like 250 to like for if if you're a hobbyist like myself obviously you don't want to get the big uh the big stern pinball boot sizes that's I mean I could see an ice cream studios with like hundreds of clocks taken over a stern area square footage [laughter] Maybe maybe one day. Maybe one day. But uh yeah, so so typically you you'd have like a single uh you know single table and then that's going to cost you like between 250 and 400 bucks I I guess. And um and then yeah, you just sign up and then it's just the logistics of it and it's just like like you know taking the dive. In my case I lost your mic again. Am I back? You're back. Yes. Okay. Sorry. I don't know what's up with this thing. It's okay. It's only happening every once in a while and only for a second or two. Okay. Um All right. All right. Yes. So, I was going to say Yeah. So, I had set this goal for myself that I was going to going to go to um Pentastic at first. I figured, you know, I now I've gotten to the point I want to challenge myself into going to an event. I thought fantastic which is not too far from here and is uh in the spring. So but in the meantime I got hit up by Rob Burke who invited me to expo and I was like oh boy this is coming up too fast now I can't do this and then he called me up and he said he kind of convinced me uh I said oh yeah you know I'll I'll wait till next year. Next year I'll have more time to prepare blah. Then he said, um, uh, yeah, you know, you never know what's gonna happen between now and next year. Everyone's got an excuse like why don't you come now? Like I could be another COVID, right? You know, pandemic pretty much take one of them. Like that's that's and then I'm like, you know, again, like opportunity doesn't knock twice. So I figured, yeah, you know what? Okay, I'll do it. So I figured it out. So I flew down [snorts] there. Uh so so may maybe I can I can tell you what my setup is now and that then I'll tell you why you know so basically the setup and again like everyone's product is different my product is I can't not bring it's kind of it's large it's fragile it's it's expensive so my thing is either I drive down or I fly down so if I fly down I bought the Pelican case you have to watch what's not the Pelican brand I went on Amazon and I took like some knockoff cheaper. For those who don't know what a Pelican brand case is, it's basically like a heavy duty plastic case that has like foam egg crates inside of it that you can cut out in order to make sure that your stuff fits in there and however you want. Yeah, heavy duty stuff. So, um, so I got that. I think it cost me a 150 bucks or something like that. And then you have to be sure and once again AI is your friend there. Make sure you get the right size for it. Don't like if you can make it so that you don't get into overweight uh or oversized uh space, do that. And then beyond oversizers, like they won't even pick it up area. So, you don't want that. So, uh yeah. So, now I have my um my Pelican case. I can fit five clocks in there and then I can put the um the the electronics in it. And then I figured, okay, well, I can't sell the ones I bring, so I'll just have samples, right? because these are show these are show pieces in order for people to get an idea of what it is. Yeah, exactly. And then uh I figured um so I I I give a I'm not even sure I would need to do that to be honest, but I I I it kind of feels right that when you're there, you'd like to just leave with it, but you can't. I give a little discount code for the people on on the um at the event. So that's what I do now. And also I have this so so you always have to think about the logistics of getting to the place and then if like if you talk to Brad Albbright he it's a completely different situation because he's got this big thing he's selling onsite he's driving down so completely different but for me so yeah I got this tons and tons of trunks but his product is also you know he sells a lot of prints he sells a lot of like kind of like thinner wood prints shout out to Brad Albreight check out his artwork he's we all kind of now we all kind of collaborate in some sort of weird like artistic creative circle jerk. But yeah, all praise to to Brad Albbright. Um, so before before we dive into like the the logistics of like that, can I ask you' mentioned that like there's obviously not a huge amount of money in something like this and that this really is like more of a creative endeavor to help try to bring more interest into the pinball hobby. For someone who I'm assuming your first expo maybe didn't sell, amazing. If somebody is firstly going into this, how do you maintain the enthusiasm to continue doing something that you've creatively like chosen to do? It's the opposite actually. It's my my first expo kind of set too high expectations for myself. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. But you know, it's it's like well my first expo we were just talking about Brad. before I got the godly license, I figured I'm going to do uh something with another artist in the pinball vicinity. And then I was aware of Brad's artwork because he had done a um a Led Zeppelin uh homebrew pinball and I thought it was fantastic. And then I hit him up and I figured, you know, he's not he's not he's not a big name so maybe he'll be interested. It was not a big name at that time. So anyway, so he did the space girl clock which was awesome and then um I sold if I'm not mistaken uh I think I had made 20 of them and then they all sold within uh like four hours and then I was like holy crap this is it 20 times 250 days in a year because I got to take some vacation so that's [laughter] what okay now go time you know but but then every every other time I was a disappointed by every other thing that came out. And then a colleague of mine told me, "Hey, you know, stop trying to reproduce that." It was like, "It happens, but you can't if it happens again, it happens again." But don't think that's that has to be the expectation. But sorry. Um, I'm pulling up Space Girl and some of the other stuff from your website while you're talking about this. Yeah. Uh but yeah, so my first and actually my first tech expo was absolutely and and I would recommend like like to anyone that's got this little uh pinball business and and of course again if you're doing that it's because you love it, you know. It's not because you sat down and you crunched the numbers and you said, "Oh, I know what I'll do. I'll do like some some mod for whatever game." And and of course not. It's because you really love it. Then when you go to the expo, so at expo not only did I sell out this this thing, but also I met it's meeting the people that you know you ask how do you keep it how do you keep the motivation the shows is the number one thing because you know when I'm here for a bit maybe at some point like I haven't sold anything in a few weeks or something like a you know what okay I'm not should I be doing this anymore that then when you go to a show first of all at shows you sell always much more stuff than you would not at a show and then you meet the concentrated amount of pinball people in one spot that are expecting to spend money. Like you go to a convention with the intention of having a good time, seeing people you, you know, want to hang out with and buying some pinball swag. It's just like kind of the way. Yeah, absolutely. And and it's like it's meeting the people that's the most like uh like the excitement like like the thing that you're excited about and that you build and then people are excited about it as well. Just that and just a concentration of that over like two days. It's like it's you know it's unbeatable. But then at some point you don't want to crunch things too much because you figure, okay, so I'm just I'm doing this so I can come concrete floor and then so I can pay for the trip thing and then but at some point it's like hey you're doing it anyway. So like don't don't overthink it and yeah. So I I absolutely if if you're doing this kind of stuff and then everyone's got a different product, you know, like last expo I was next to the uh pin snake guy. So very different product. It's more of a a commodity. It's a it's it's cheaper. He sell he brings big boxes of them and then he sold out of every single one of his pinstakes. I remember I went back to try to grab one that expo and they were gone. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So you know to him it makes sense. You don't want a simple pinstake. You want to buy it now, you know. So, you want to bring a bunch of stuff. So, it's different for for everyone, I guess. Do you have a choice of where your booth is? Do you find it's useful to be paired next to somebody that's more of a technical product like that or is it better to be with other creative products or does that create competition in terms of Well, no, no, no. I don't think there's competition. Well, no. I mean, just like somebody has enough money to buy a creative product, right? You go to the expo and you have a small budget to buy one art thing and you're in two art booths like, you know. Yeah. whatever, man. But, you know, like, but yeah, but my thing is I was going to say that's not my day job. I don't think it's most people's day jobs. And then I want to have a good time, too. So, I I'm always I'm not at my booth all that much. I'm always walking around because I want to go see uh I hang out with Brad a bunch. Last time I met with the Artovision guy who does the um the frames uh um the licensed frames with old timey uh arcade games and stuff, Steuart. So I hung out at Steuart's booth and then uh so you know it's it's uh so the placement I would say you know at the Texas Expo last time I was outside of the main area in the the Yeah, you were in the like loop the orbit loop but that gets a lot of foot traffic too. It does and that was my thinking but I still sort of felt like outside of the thing so eh I don't think I'll do that one again. Although the same at Pentastic, like you have to try them out, you know, and each one's different. But like at Fantastic, there's also this kind of uh corridor space I was in as opposed to the main vendor space. And that one feels very different for whatever the reason. Although there was this guy selling this toffee or whatever and man, it was like I had you were swimming in sugar fumes the whole weekend. So [laughter] that's getting high off the toffee supply. Yeah. Man, my my score reels are spinning on their own. I guess they do that anyway, huh? Yeah. But it's um Yeah. Each each one's different. But I think next expo I will maybe try to go a bit more in the middle for whatever the reason. I don't know. They're all good. You know, it's just you try them out and you figure it out. If you if you had to pick something from all of them as a generalized rule, what's something that you would recommend that you absolutely have to do and something that you should not do based on your experience of at the expos themselves. Correct. In terms of like now you have a product and you're trying to like show the world that product. I guess it could be also online as well, but you have a thing and you want people to know about it. Well, that's the thing. It's you have a thing and you want the people to know about it because I I'm a bit of a I'm not a big self-promoter and I always feel cringe about about like promoting myself. But then like an expo like that is a good way to do it without it being that way. But the thing is you can have the coolest thing in the world if if nobody knows about it like what's the point? and and you'd feel like, oh, they they'll find out and you know, just naturally and blah. But yeah, but flip the thing around and take your whatever Instagram or something or something and then you scroll and how many different cool things are you seeing every day and then how is your thing going to be seen? So, I've kind of turned around and actually this year I figured because you know all this hobby comes with costs in my case because I have a licensing and then I have a I I have insurance and then I have the uh the the I needed to get help. So, so now I have a space I rent and all this kind of stuff. So, uh so, so now there has to be a minimum income that comes with it just to keep it going. So then I figured this year, okay, I think I got enough products. Although your pyramid thing, that was just like I I had to do it. I had this idea, but in general, I felt, okay, I think I'm going to take a little break on the new stuff for a few months and just experiment with boosting posts on Instagram and and uh and and the shows again, they're a no-brainer. They're the best thing you can do, but they're exhausting a little bit, you know, like because I went to Texas uh TPF and then right after that I went to Pentastic this year and I was a bit like, oh, okay, again, another one, you know. So, um so yeah, I'm kind of experimenting with seeing how. And then I I posted on groups, but you can't post on all the groups. And then I don't want to come off as cringe or pushy cuz I really don't like that. And pinball people are very critical. They're very critical of like the shilling and like people like pinball people don't want you to make money doing pinball stuff which is really weird because there's no money in pinball stuff. So, especially for like a product like this that's so creative. It's just like this is to give something back to the pinball community, but it takes time and it costs money, you know. Well, I I I I don't know that it's to give something back, you know. I'm not that uh uh um what's the word I'm looking for that uh no I mean I but but in terms of generous but but it's really I have a vision and I have to do it and it again I never want to sit down and compute how does this make any decent amount of money because I I don't want to do it you know but now I have a guy I'm paying for Felix who now helps builds and I pay him to help me out so he makes a little bit of money and then I started my daughter uh I I you know she's 13 she was looking for work this summer. So I I pay her a little to help me out then use that cheap family labor. Why not? [laughter] Yeah, absolutely. And and then I I just like the the creation. I I I need to create stuff. So, and which I think is is the biggest driver for most of the people doing all this spinball stuff is you want to create something and then here's a not a canvas but here's a platform that allows this creation and then like the topper stuff like if you explain you go to a person and you tell them what a topper is and how much it costs. Yeah. They're like mind blown. Why would anybody spend that much money on something like that? But but that's kind of my point for your clocks is like it was a passion project originally. It wasn't like how can I manipulate people to make money in as you do it. No, no, go ahead. Well, I was just like other than toppers, I can't really think of anything that's in the pinball ecosystem. It's just to manipulate people out of but then the like you look at them like holy crap, man. There's so much creation in there and it's like it's art and engineering coming together and that's that's, you know, that's why they're so cool. But then yeah like yeah the price gouging and all this stuff like I make not I don't make a huge margin on those but at some point you realize that you do need margins to just keep the thing going because now okay I have to pay my QuickBooks I have to pay my accountant I have to uh give discounts here have someone else help build them. I mean, there's so many different if if I ever want to uh to have them distributed, I I have a little bit of that going on. That takes a big chunk of it. And then there's the licensing and there's that. You add all this up, you can't be running on on too thin a margin because then you anything will kill you, you know? So, it's and and I've put money out of my own pocket into this like this year. I'm I'm kind of I'm I've been doing this for three years. I sold upwards of uh I don't knowund and something of them. and and I've got I've got zero from it, but I that's not what else would I be doing, you know, I'd be I'd be restoring pinballs, pinball machines like this one back here. And and you mentioned with your work, too, that it's just it's I'm sure your job is amazing and interesting. We talked a little bit about it beforehand when I was doing my research, but it's still a job and something like this is a really creative outlet. And you were talking about just wanting something a little more fulfilling. And I think that anybody that hits a certain point in their life that might be a little older like you and me is looking for stuff that's more interesting and more fulfilling in their in their hobbies and their interests. And I see that this checks pretty much every single box for that. Yeah. Indeed. Uh how old are you, man? You say old like us. How old are you? What do you How old do you think I am? We've played this game on the podcast before. I know. You look look like you're 38. Yeah, I'm in my 40s. [laughter] Okay. All right. I My neck feels it. No, I'll be I'll be I'll be 43. So, I'm gonna be 44, actually. Jesus Christ. You You don't look a day over at 39. Thanks. [laughter] You don't look a day over for I'm not you, but I'm saying it'd be funny if you were like, "You don't look a day over 42." I'm like, "Well, you were really close." [laughter] Yeah, I'm 46 now. But yeah. Yeah, indeed. You don't look a day over 45. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. [laughter] [snorts] Um, well, okay. So, just real quick, I wanted to reel back to the licensing stuff because I think it's really fascinating that you have not only do you have the new artists that you collaborate with like on the page with all the work that they do and who they are and what their links are, which is super awesome, but you also have a bunch and I think maybe all of the original artists that were involved in the Gotautle and the Valley uh era clocks that you have. I mean, you've got Ferris on here and Art Stenol Yeah, I for for the Bali I only have Paul Ferris and then for the Godly I have Art Tennol, I have uh Gordon Morrison, my favorite I have Roy Parker. There's there's many more. Like there's so many cool looking clocks. And then it's it's the the Gutly ones. It's not that bad to have many different models because they're typically white. And then so you have two different fonts. You have the 60s and 70s one. You have two fonts and then which I have both of and then they're typically white. I'm assuming you spray paint stencil these as well like just like the original cabinets. Yeah. Actually, yes. Yes. And and that's a bit of a that's that's a complicated part of it. Like if it weren't a passion project, I'd probably look into not doing that. But then that's how they did it. So, but yeah. So, so for the the godlyborns, it's pretty easy. But then you look at the ballet, each cabinet's a different color. So it's either I I stock a bunch of stuff and then I find out ex like that one doesn't sell or then it's a it's on a per order thing which I am mostly doing now. Yeah. So, so point is I I there's so many beautiful ones and then uh like and it is super work intensive to produce uh every single new model though on the art side because since it's not the same form factor it's not just stretching it's and and I I it's it's taking basically what I need to do is I need to cut out every important piece of it and then I need to move it around and then I need to fill in the gaps either tried drawing myself which I don't want to do too much of cuz I'm not Gordon Morrison you know or I try to piece it back like if you look at your centigrade I was I was just about to bring up centigrade the ther the completely different you know I had to remove everything around and the centigrade like I thought I cannot do the centigrade without a a working thermometer so I racked my brain about that one and then I then at some point I I go oh yeah I saw these little le LED strip things like that's it. But then how do I how do I make it all work together? And then you know it's u Yeah. So so how much time does it take from conception to completion for something like this? Especially when it uses like a new element. So like you know you mentioned the thermostat for grade 37 and also you know for the pyramid clock that you did for me like it has this rotating eye that's inside of it that recessed kind of like what a haunted house effect as well. Like what is what is the con concept to delivery timeline look like? It depends because I typically have a bunch of different projects like ongoing because they have they all have like waiting points for different reasons. So, for instance, like the collaborations, like I've got one that's kind of been going very slowly and then um so I I just wait for the other person who I'm not going to name right away, but I just wait for them. And then in the meantime, while I get something else going a little bit and I'm going to call out Brad Albreight right now because I I first I said, "Hey, Brad, I'm doing this this uh pyramid clock for Jeff. Would you do the artwork?" And he said yes. And then he he never did it. [laughter] So, Brad. So, you know, it just it just stayed there for a while waiting for that. But the mechanical aspect that one because basically I showed that in my little making off video, but I did bring a reel here. So, I have my PCB that I did. Let me let me make you big. Yeah. So, I have my my PCB here. So when I did the um centigrade clock, I added an extra um connector here for mods which I called it. So once I had that one, I figured, hey, now that I and and basically I merged the two um different modules together. So these four things you see here, that's for the score reels, but I also use the same PCB. And you have the uh these uh which ones are Yeah, these two things here. That's where I plug in the two displays for the LCD ones. And then uh now I have this connector. So I figured, hey, I'm going to try getting one of these servo motors. Uh you you unified the board on that one so that you wouldn't have because I remember you had mentioned that you had kind of two separate boards for both different types of driven uh whether it was score wheels or alpha numeric and now they're unified into one system. Yeah, exactly. So then I figured, hey, I can try a servo now. And what's cool with all these now it's not an Arduino anymore. It's an ESP32. And that's one thing I learned. One thing interesting with this with the incremental approach is that um you know I I I improve and I learned new things. So I learned that you cannot use an 80 mega 328 for an actual product because that's way too expensive. So I switched to an ESP32 and then I learned that you can just port the code over like that and then I had that I had this done on what's it called like before that I did I I I gave the bottle of u rum to the guy I was talking about earlier. So I did a first iteration and from that I iterated myself and that was a add-on thing on the Arduino. Then at some point I figured okay now's the time I want my own PCB. So, I went on freelancer.com and then I got some guy uh that bid on it and then but everyone wanted wanted me to go over to ESP32 and I specifically said in the thing do not propose ESP32 which is this little that's the processor basically. I was going to say why is ESP32 such a such a no no. It's funny. Chat's currently talking. Slinger, who's a who's a fan and and friend of the channel, says he works on an ESP32 at work, and Doug wants to know if the guy designed and populated that board. Uh, so what? Okay. So, basically, I I I had my working thing with the uh Arduino, and I did not want to rework it because I I didn't want to recode. I didn't I just wanted the thing to be a single board, which is why I said no ESP32. And then the guy that bids again comes up with the ESP32. I'm like, "Hey, can't you read the thing?" But he says, "Hey, your code is going to work." Like, "Oh, really? My code's going to work?" Oh, okay. That's a different story. Was it plugandplay between the Arduino? Like, can you just for the most part? It was not plugandplay, but it's very similar. So, basically with AI, uh I I basically I I I know how to program, but like most people, I've become lazy with the AI. So, I just uh the AI just did whatever it needed to do for it to work on the ESP. How much was there any correction you needed to do after it did its like translation or No? No. Well, yes. Yes. Actually, there were there were a few things cuz cuz there's little intricacies that are specific to each u each one like one of the things and and one of the things that is uh a bit complicated overly so I think but you know since again very incremental I just got one direction and just kept going is that these motors that I use uh so these are not servos they're uh they're stepper motors which okay that's what I was going to ask stepper motors have a much longer lifespan as well Right. It's No, no, it's not it's not a lifespan thing. It's it's like these have have a like they should have an infinite lifespan because basically it moves a little bit every one minute for this one and that one it's every hour. So, you know, every 10 hour this one but uh but basically the thing is that they don't know what zero is. They don't have any notion of position. It's all um relative. So, you have to have them initialize at this given position. So, what I have now is I I built this software that there's a camera that takes pictures and it it increments uh the the numbers. It takes a picture. It looks how off everything is, then it feeds back to readapt it. That goes in the memory and then like the communication and stuff. I had to rework that, but uh Wait, so there's a little camera that like looks at the reels inside to make sure that their alignment is correct. I've got I've got Yeah. Yeah. I've I've got posts at at the shop. I I set this up. I've got a little uh area where I've got this this permanent uh webcam. I've put the process is I put this on there and then it auto right here. Yeah. Here, let me pull it up because what Oh, and you know, I' I've got a good insight and uh well, you have felt free to stop me if when I am rambling. So, um No, the whole point of the podcast is for you to ramble. [laughter] If you didn't ramble, it'd be more of a problem. Yeah, I guess so. So, one thing I think is a good insight, you know, you were asking me about what is there to know about shows? Well, first go to them. Do it and and you know, just bite the bullet. Figure it out from there afterwards. But do it. If if you're unsure, pick one not too far from where you are, just pay the whatever it costs, go and figure it out, you know. But to come back to another lesson learned um when doing this is um uh uh when when I first wanted to put some up for sale on on Pinite, my number I had in my head was 100 and then a friend of mine told me don't do that because you've built one or two now. When you build 10, you'll see that you have there's a few things you struggle with and you you'll wish you hadn't sold a hundred. I said, "Okay, that's a good idea." So, I first sold 10, I think. And he was right. And and the I used to do this calibration thing uh visually. So, I'd have like this glass with a a ruler on it, and then I I type in the numbers. And that would take me like an hour and a half for each one. And then after the first 10, I figured, okay, that's not going to do it. And uh I also have these little now like to find the zero, there's a magnet in there. Uh yeah, right here there's a little magnet. I see it. Yeah, there's a magnet and then in the back here you have these read switches and that's how it finds it zero. But I used to have a little micro switch and then the micro switch would be activated by when the reel would turn it would catch it and that's how it would find the zero. But then I'd build the whole thing. I calibrate it. Looks great. Then I find out the switch is kind of activating off every so often. I have to take it apart. So I said, "Okay, I cannot do a larger number with this design." So I had to iterate that. So yeah, if if you're a hobbyist and you're going to sell stuff, my advice would be unless it's very simple, you know, but the minute it's a little bit complicated is ratchet it up and and if if you're if you're a one person operation, if you're a big business and then you got investors and then uh you want to do a retro atomic zombies, uh then go nuts, you know, but uh you know, that's um that's my advice there. Nice. Um I'd say you I love your attention to detail for it, too. If people if people don't know, you take the time to look up what time zone the purchaser is in, and the clock comes preconfigured so that when you plug it in, the date, time, and everything, it just like immediately boots up to it. And it seems small, but it's extremely satisfying. And uh also, it's really easy for me because I have three of them now, and they're in the spots that they're going to be. And since the power supply is standardized and it's on the little daisy chain thing, I can just be like boop and like change clocks. So, yeah. Thank you. [laughter] Um [snorts] well, [] this is fascinating. I I that pretty much covers all those questions. I guess the only other thing I have is for people that are interested in doing pinball related products, how difficult is it dealing with like Gotle or other manufacturers to acquire licensing rights to do stuff? Um, I don't know if the cost of it is something that you're comfortable talking with about, but just like what are what are some pitfalls and journeys that somebody might just stumble on if they're trying to make t-shirts or whatever it is that may pull from art assets that are licensed? Well, I I don't want to get well, of course, I'm I'm not going to get into specific numbers. What I would say and my situation is kind of specific because I have a pretty specific product that there's not really uh I mean other there there's nobody else that already has a clock score real clock product you know so so there's not that that concern of yeah okay but you want to do t-shirts but there's already like whatever um what I would say is I think and that's worked out for you and I'm Again, that's my and I think I'm not sure if I talked about it before the show. It was really [music] getting my [] together before I tried to hit up for the license, you know. So, I already had the the I already had built a number of clocks. I already had ironed out uh the biggest problems. I already had some success with doing uh one with artwork and all this stuff. And then I hit up uh Gotautle which is and people uh um and and the Gotautle license owner is not PBR not pinball resource as most most people think Steve Young. So he is mostly the caretaker for it and the owner refers defers to them for you know uh looking at the products and stuff but um but yeah so so I I so I got my my things together and then I hit them up and then it's not very there's a reason there's not a whole lot of gutly stuff uh licensed official licensed around it's because it's not very how would I say industrialized for lack of a better word you know like it's the guy has the license, he'll license stuff out, but he's not looking for it necessarily. So, that's one part. But once I got that going and then these like if if you own some IP like that, it's valuable. You don't want some some crap to to tarnish the name. So, it's very important that you have again, you look like you know what you're doing and you have good liability insurance. You have a I have I got an LLC. I'm not sure that that's necessary and maybe I'm over doing it. Oh, another thing I was very careful about is I never wanted to do anything licensed before I had the license. So, like there's this guy that does incredible work, but he's been doing unlicensed stuff for years and now he's trying to get the license. Ah, that's a tough I don't know how I can help. Yeah. Do you burn a bridge by trying to do it without the license and then you go back and you're like, "Hey, by the way, good." [laughter] Yeah, that's not a good way to go about it. But yeah, so get your things like if you can manage to sell things without it being the actual license thing ahead of time to show you've got some experience with it. I for sure that helps. Again, that's as a single hobbyist person. If you're an [clears throat] established company, whole different story, you know. So we we got some questions coming in regarding this. Just to finish on on the ballet side, it's much more clear. You go on the Planetary Pinball website, there's a page about it. It's Rick at Planetary and then it's very he he does it much more. And it's I didn't realize he owned the Valley licensing. Yes. And actually I only do Bal stuff right now, but the license is Bali Williams. Uh uh Valley Williams. So, but yeah. Cool. Um well, people are very curious about this. So, uh, Slinger wants to know if the licensing companies adjust their fees to cost depending on the profit potential of one of the clocks or do they all have kind of It's a percentage. It's a percentage of the of the cost and it's pretty standard. I I've talked to other people that have licenses and it's it's the same number. There's just a market kind of rate for it. Yeah. And and as a hobbyist, you don't have any leverage, you know, if if like you what are you going to do argue with them? [laughter] Yeah. Exact Yeah. Exactly. It's like, okay, well, don't do it then. you know, so but yeah, no, it's pretty standard and and uh I've had a good working relationship on both ends, but I'm I've been polite and I've been understanding. I'm just uh I'm I'm a nobody. So, so I have to be careful, you know. So, yeah. Yeah, for sure. If you are planning on doing something and you think you're just going to fly under the radar, like it's probably it's not it's not that much effort to just do it legit and it does open up the doors in the future instead of closing them. So, something to be aware of. It is effort. It is effort and you will not fly under the the radar on the valley side on the godly. You could get away with it, but then the day you want to do it legit now you screwed up your you tarnished your story. How how much time does it actually take to send him an email and be like, "Hey, we're interested in setting up a licensing deal." Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Right. So minimal effort. [laughter] Yeah. Um cool. What is your most successful clock? successful in terms of how many I sold. Yeah, I would say I'm not good at keeping I I'm not good at keeping track of the numbers all that much. I would say it's probably uh a brachabra or cenigrade 37. It's one of those two. I would say to me like the most peak got like the one I had in my head the whole time is El Dorado. I didn't sell that many of those, but I think it's it's the most beautiful one. Although centigrade, that game has so many drop targets in it, it's ridiculous. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And the game itself. And then the one I'm really uh uh the one that Johnny Crap did with the uh handpainted cabinet. That was a one of one. It went to auction at the uh and he did it for free and for auction for for charity. To me, that is like I cannot believe I was involved in making such a thing exist, you know? So, it's on my Instagram somewhere. I'm Yeah, I'm looking on the artist page. I don't know. Is it the one with the tilt side and the skateboard uh pit? What do you call it? Yes, it's black. Uh it's black line art on the white uh thing. To me, like this is it's a one of one. So, of course, I can't I can't measure it success-wise, but just like that I could make things happen. Incredible, you know. Oh, sweet. Here's the video of him actually doing the painting. Yeah. Shout out to Johnny Crap. It's impossible not to uh mention some of the more talented people in the pinball art ecosystem. It's funny that you've kind of curated kind of the the best of the best in terms of pinball artwork uh just through your collaborations, you know. Well, see, that's that's the thing is is I'm always interested in making and I I don't think Johnny Crap or or Brad Albbright need me to have a platform for your stuff to shine. But I I like I like that I can give a canvas. And then both of them I just told them, hey, you do whatever. Don't ask me any questions. just do whatever. I trust you. It's going to be awesome for Johnny Crap. I came up with the title cuz uh whatever I came up with the title, but both of them, all of them actually, even the Joe Temp uh one and and that one got me in trouble. I look at it like, "Holy crap, this is complicated, man. Now I have to print all the sides." Like I was going to say, you mean for the cabinet for the cabinet part of it? Yeah. Pull that one up because it is quite it is quite detailed. Yep. But yeah, the the just to get back to the question, yeah, Brockadabra maybe got passed by Senrade. It's one of those two I think that's the most uh I've sold the most of. Awesome. Uh do you have I know you said you were planning on pushing more into the social media aspect of it and getting more attention to the brand, but is there a sneak preview of maybe some potential license of one coming up soon? Um, I have a few things ongoing. As I was explaining, there's always like some wait time. I'm not personally working on any one title right now. Um, I have a few on my on the back burner. I have one with another pinball artist. Um, he's not one of the bigger names, but he's one that I really like. And again, he came up with another complicated thing, but that's going to be awesome when he does finish it because that's been ongoing for a bit. Um, I have um, you know, you were talking about the niche uh, or how do you say it? Niche. It's a niche product. Niche. Yeah, I say niche, but I don't know if that's right. I say a lot of things that aren't right. So, so [laughter] I have one that is the niche. It's two niches that don't even overlap. And I'm sure when I make that one, I'm going to sell zero of them because it's so niche. But it's a buddy of mine that's who works at at an animation studio that's working on a I can't say it because I don't even think he's going to get around to finishing it ever. It's a there's this pedal steel player. His name is Jeremy Wakefield. And I put his song in a video I did of one of the clocks. And I did didn't even occur to me that he'd ever see it. He liked it. And then I started talking on Instagram. So I started talking with him and then he seemed genuinely interested in the clock. So I said, "Hey, how about this, man? Let's do a a Jeremy Wakefield uh signature clock." And then my buddy Bean's going to draw it. And then the there's going to be two people that get it on the whole planet. Three people will get it on the whole planet. Jeremy, but they're gonna love it. and bean but [laughter] and then man he's been working on it for two years and but is he's if if he were not working on it at some point that's okay forget I'll just send him a different one but he is working on it but anyway so there's that then last thing that's uh figured I'm working on this now so it's not a theme but oh so I figured six reels so this one here is uh it's not doing anything it's just a zero So, I I figure I could put this on the top of the clocks, uh, sorry, on the top of the pinball machines, and then you put buttons underneath the um the cabinet, and then that's your high score keeper. Oh, smart. I love that. That's cool. Yeah. So, it's the same. And what I what I did here too is uh I for the since I only have four outputs for the reels the the regular motors I also added a stepper motor here sorry a servo like you have in your pyramid clock. And then since this number like you're never you're never going to do like uh 500,000 on your um EM. So it can go one two 012 I think. So anyway, Carl D'Angelo could probably put 500,000 on an EM. Yeah, but you know, whatever. He'll he'll remember his Yeah. So that's what I got going. And then various different ideas and then more ideas than time and um Yeah. So a bunch of stuff, but yeah, nothing I can really say that I have. I I I don't have No, that's great. Are you kidding? Those are two great hooks. The pyramid, you know, that's the pyramid. That's that's the one that we have now. You know, that's true. We do have our pyramid. This this came about for sure before the chats like, "Oh, you're shilling. You're shilling." Which is fine. There's no money here. But we there was no intention to bring this to market at all. You literally surprised and threw this at me. And I opened the box and was just like, "This is the coolest goddamn thing I've ever seen." The box had like a spray painted pyramid on the side of it. As soon as I like ripped the tape off and saw that, I was just like I was like I I kind of I had a suspicion. But then, you know, after popping it open, I was just like, "This is so [] cool." Uh, yeah. But, you know, like like since I've got all my my stuff set up, you know, I've got my CNC guy. I did it in Fusion anyway. So, as I was doing it, I was still thinking, hey, I could do more of these probably. But that was not the point, you know, but seeing like, hey, why not? Yeah. It's so cool. Even if nobody buys one, I couldn't be happier that I got mine. It's going to be the center. It's literally behind me on my piano just looking like that. We we've got we've got enough for a run going. So, if you're watching, you got till Friday to uh to get in. There you go. If you are interested in being part of the uh the combination of pinball cult and timekeeper uh and have a creepy eye follow you around the room. Uh oh, praise. It is creepy. [laughter] It's super creepy. It's funny. I even made Well, you told me that there was a development the delay. We keep stomping on each other. That's my bad. Go for it. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. When I when I first saw it, I was like, well, before I got the actual translate, I printed it on paper. Then I looked at it. I was like, oh man, this is creepy. And then and then I I I had a different version printed without the eye opening, but then I thought, yeah, but that's the whole point, you know. And then uh and then the other thing though is it used to like look around like shoot like this, you know, but it it's it's not noisy, but I figured ah it could get a little annoying. So now it's just as you've seen it just moves every second. At first I wanted it to go like like over a minute it would come back to the same spot but then I couldn't make that work. And then the other thing I had tried is I put two mics in there or or two positional mics or whatever. And then I figured it could look where it hears stuff but within the Awesome. Yeah. But like like for it to really work, you would have had to put the mics like further apart, you know, like just having them within the box, it didn't work either. So I figured complicated enough. Let's let's not overdo it, you know. That's really funny. Someone said that uh they were surprised that it's mechanical. So I have you sent me a development shot of it. So here it is on the internal also on Instagram. There's a a behind the scenes that you made that shows a lot of the internal workings. But you can see here that it's uh you know like a prosthetic eye on a servo. [laughter] It's just terrifying. I had I had to try a few ones too. I had to order a few different ones. And I really again I'm a perfectionist so I really wanted it to look like good, you know. Even the color I wanted it to be yellow. I didn't find a yellow one, but it it is green yellowish. But I did try a few iterations of the eye before I got that one right. Totally. Um yeah, it does look pretty cool. Yeah, my favorite is they function amazing as night lights. I leave mine on all the time, but uh for people that don't know, you do have there's a power button inside if you want to turn off the LED portion of it, but it still maintains the clock portion of it. Yeah, go ahead. Show them off. You you have to have one or a clock, right? I mean, I could grab one. Yeah. So, so one thing that is on my radar, and actually that's Rob Burke, the Pinball Expo guy. he's been uh he's been bugging me about that is it should have a um what do you call it a um a dimmer and I think he's right. I think he's right. It would be a good idea. But the thing is LEDs you cannot just dim them with just a potential meter. You need component. So when I get a PCB redesign, I think maybe I'll look into that. But yeah, you can you can turn it off as it is. But like as you're saying, I you just leave it on. It's a nice, you know, nightlight, I think. Totally. I Some people had messaged me asking if the backlight portion of it is part of the light. It's not. I have a light that I have put behind mine that kind of like glows there. But maybe maybe an opportunity there to have a kind of like Say again. What's What's the idea to have like a am like a LED like maybe circle on the back of the light so that it creates like a diffused light? uh like similar to like you know how people put LEDs around the back of their TV and it like glows behind it so that it provides like a colored glow up against whatever surface that it's behind cuz I that's what I did with both my Centaur and for this one currently it's Oh, is that what you did? Oh, I get Oh, I understand the pictures now. Oh, yeah. I have I have a hidden light that's behind there. The small LED like circle light. That way you can have a backlight behind it if you would want. And that would be easy to do as well. Huh. See collaboration field. It's fantastic. The the other thing I want to to give people as a takeaway to this is that if you see someone doing something creative or cool, don't feel shy reaching out. If you're a creative person yourself, like some of the coolest stuff that's come out of me doing pinball stuff is talking to Brad. Like the whole like wooden pyramid thing stuff, Shay from Counterflip with some of the t-shirt stuff, like you'd be surprised what just starting a conversation with someone is. Even if it's like just to tell them that their work is great, there there doesn't have to be any ulterior motives. You can just tell someone their stuff is cool. They might say your stuff is cool and then some new idea pops out of it. So, absolutely. Yeah. And and you know, with with your thread of the conversation, come back to the shows, that's another thing. You meet like-minded people that have ideas like you and then you can exchange ideas and it's not a competitive like it's it's it's, you know, collaborative and people are glad to exchange and stuff. So yeah, it's uh yeah, do do reach out to people and personally I'm always happy just questions like I'll be happy to answer any questions from what I've learned to do your own whatever thing it is. Uh so yeah or you can check out your 15page pinside thread documenting your journey of doing it. I'm sorry. 24 page and then and then [laughter] Yeah, absolutely. And then, sorry, my light is running out, so I'm gonna plug in somewhere. But yeah, and then as as you see, I've documented the whole thing. So, and if you want to copy it, yeah, go ahead, man. Have fun because uh it's it's more complicated than you than it looks. So, um [laughter] Well, I hope nobody's watching this with the intention of ripping off your pinball clocks, but I suppose I suppose those people do exist out there. [laughter] Yeah. Well, you know, if any of the big guys wanted to do it, they just crushed me. You know, if Stern decided they wanted to use their uh their Well reel and do it, then I'm I'm I'm done. But whatever. They haven't crushed me yet. And and I've, as you know, before the the podcast got going, I had kind words for uh very supportive words for Gary Stern. So, it would be even more crappy for him to destroy me, but he hasn't yet. So, you know, all good. Thank you, Gary, for not destroying the [laughter] only pinball clock that exists on the entire planet. So, at least that I know of. Um, all right, chat. Now's your opportunity if you have any questions or personal shout outs. Uh, Sploodranks ordered Centiggrade. There's a few people saying that they had picked up clocks. Um, some someone's really mad at you because I guess they spend 350 every month buying a new clock from you, which I totally get as a as an owner of three of them now. The addiction is real. It It's kind of like pinball collecting, but it's a lot smaller, you know, which I appreciate. You can get more of them without taking up too much space. [laughter] Well, that was exactly my idea at first is like, hey, you can Yeah, you can collect them. And for myself again, I'll I'll talk I'll say El Dorado again. I don't even think I've seen El Dorado in in the real world. I've played uh not Solar City, but Target Alpha, which is al also awesome. The point is, I can have an El Dorado, a Gotautly Bel Dorado, because it's not a ripoff. I have the actual approved Gotautly Bel Dorado in my I own it. I own a version of it and and for for what would have cost 15 years ago, you would have gotten the actual machine for that price. But, you know, whatever. It's uh for for the licensing, do they send you like large scale vector or like high resolution artwork or do you have to do it yourself? No, absolutely not. Which was my surprise when I got the Godly license. I was like, okay, I I got the license now. Give me give me those assets, right? Yeah. Like [laughter] bring them on. There's nothing. There's nothing for a Gutle. There's nothing. Um there is more but but stuff is documented now more and more but I know there there's nothing uh again God is not an operation for this really it's I think and I I need to check but you know like like when I did recently the um the centaur I just typed in uh centor high-res back glass and there it was so I didn't even bother to to email you know so uh but no you don't have access to anything really on on the go side. On the other, I'm not so sure, but uh or for instance, you know, I've got this uh enjoy play and enjoy flipper skill games thing back here. I have I made bumper stickers off of that. But then I had to buy this from PBR to get the artwork because it was nowhere. So, I bought this, I scanned it, reduced it, and then um got it approved. Then I made them. Y um I I forgot to to mention another favorite thing that that your clocks do is that they they have Easter eggs in them. When you mentioned centaur, it made me think, of course, cuz uh remember I messaged you. I was just like I think I'm like hallucinating, but you know, I may have been a little uh on the wacky backy. It might have been late at night, but I looked over and I sure as [] thought my clock said something and then it was gone talking about orbs. And you know, obviously if you've played Centaur, there's plenty of call outs that involve that. So you you have little Easter eggs in it. Do you want to talk about a few of the secret Easter eggs and the alt of a numeric ones? Did Did you have a good look at the pyramid one? There's a few ones in there as well. I haven't seen one cycle it. I saw that you posted it on the behind the scenes, but it's it's every 15 minutes or Well, I don't want to give away the surprise if people buy the clocks, but it's Yeah. Well, basically, you know, obviously the the LCD ones are a little less involved uh mechanically and and so I figured how can I make them I got to put something cool in there still. So, I figured, okay, I could have a a scrolling text uh that I take from the playfield that runs by every hour at first. So, basically, I just you look at the center playfield and then there's I forget by heart what it is, but you know, shoot here for X amount of points and D. So, I put that in. It's random. So, like there's seven or eight of them. And it at first was on the hour and then I thought, ah, maybe that's not often enough. So, every 15 minutes. So, if you want to see it, you just adjust the time. You go to the 15 minutes and then you'll see it go by and it's random. So there's a few of them when I did yours actually. Well, I'm I'm not gonna tell you, but yeah, don't tell me that everyone the chat's saying don't ruin the surprise. So [laughter] because you like to bag on stuff a little bit, I've noticed. And then when I did it, what have I bagged on? [laughter] Oh, wait a minute. And when I did it, you were well, you you like well the the day I programmed the thing, I looked at your uh stories or whatever. And then on that day, you said like a mean thing about a uh a pinball toy. And then I thought it was funny, so I I put that in there. [laughter] But it's uh what mean thing did I say? Hey, look. I give I give deliberate criticism with facts to back stuff up, but what pinball toy was I bagging on? But then there's an F-word in there. So now my problem is I don't know from the people who bought the clock. I don't know who is a follower of dirty pool. So I think they can deal with the f-word. But then who is say that every so often? Will they get offended? Will they get offended by the fwords? No, I'm not sure what to do with it. I think I think I might remove it. Or or maybe just change the F for a uh change the FU for a screw you. Maybe that could I don't know. That means that my clock is the only profanity clock. That's fantastic. Or could be potentially. That could be a good way to keep it to keep it very uh to keep yours extra special. That could be Tailos or Talis, hopefully I'm saying that right, says that they want you to leave it in for theirs. Maybe that's what you have to add on the purchase page. Do you want your [] to swear? You know what? Do you want your [] to swear at [laughter] you? Yes. Yeah. If you don't if you don't watch the stream, there's a lot of dildos on it. Uh anyway, so do you want your clock to swear at you or not? Yeah. [laughter] You know, you know, I'll I'll I think I might email people or something just to to double check. I don't know. Personal personal [] preference. [laughter] Um amazing. Well, that kind of Yeah, go ahead. that kind of tongue fork has to happen when you're you're you're dealing with clocks, you know? It's uh it's it's a slippery uh Yeah, don't get your [] clocks one letter away. [laughter] Um no, I was just going to do the wrap-up spiel, man. I just I appreciate you taking the time to do this. I know that with kids, we had to kind of like finagle time slots, but uh you know, I really just wanted to The whole point of the podcast is to feature people of the moment doing interesting stuff in pinball. And uh I think that this absolutely qualifies on all levels. It's a it's a creative endeavor. It involves engineering. It involves pinball and pinball artwork even though it is not a pinball machine itself. Um I I can't help but notice that you don't have a whole lot of like more modern like uh artwork and stuff. I'm curious where you would draw the line on that. So I want to I just want to throw like three games at you and see if any of these would be of interest for you for making a new kind of clock background. Uh, Raven. [laughter] Raven. That's a gutly, right? And then the third one. It's Raven. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. Well, see, the thing is, uh, yes, the answer would be yes, but legendary backlash. It's a yes, but it's a yes, but uh I I'm very particular about having the cabinet that fits with the uh the error and it's a spray it's a spray painted cabinet. It's It's bad camo. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is indeed. That would be cool. It's like, you know, the wedge head isn't wedge shape wedge shaped, which people like to point out. And yes, I I honestly was going to mention that, but I figured it was probably something that some nuisance has mentioned before. So, I was like, I'm not going to say that. [laughter] But thank you for pointing that out. For the sake, like it was for the sake of of I figured it's going to be easier to build pretty much. And then again, incremental and then it sold and then I just kept it as is. But then the the front is still very much like, you know, it's flat. There's the rounded corners here. The ratio of this to this is pretty it's bevel cut in there. I have king and queens pulled up right now on the screen for people to see. So point is with the Raven, it's a different cabinet. So if I was to get into that, I would not feel right to not have the cabinet. And there's not that much that I like from that era. So did I have the cabinet already? Yes, absolutely. But I don't You're not wrong. That modern Gotautle has a weird like hood almost on it. I got it's I don't know if modern got is the right term but yeah but then at some point like it's so it's it's it's it's not mid right it's it's not a it's not a midl looking thing it's like either you love it or you hate it which is cool and of obviously you love it so uh well but to your point there aren't a whole ton of I mean there are what maybe 15 or 16 DMD got games uh but there that that style is Not very. So, what I'll tell you about about the one what I will Surf Champ that would make a great one. Oh, yeah. But then it's a four player, so I need It's not the same It's not the same cabinet format. Again, maybe I'm being too I'm I'm being overly uh specific. But one one thing I can say about and sorry you were wrapping this up, but then you asked me. No, that's okay. I wanted to show I wanted to grab the pyramid clock, too, cuz you obviously decided to make because you you know, you didn't do the wedge head, but you went maximum angle with the pyramid. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. But then that one I could I could figure out how to build easily because the angles they're 90° angles. So it's it's for the CNC because I'm I'm not a CNC expert. So I sort of have to figure out what I think will be CNC. So in that the case of that one, it's a 90 degree angle. So, it was pretty not hard to pull off. But what what I was going to say? Oh, yeah. So, that the other one I'm working on with this other guy. Oh, there you go. Yeah. So, so that's not that hard to pull off because it's uh again 90 degree angles. You got to explain how the two buttons work for people that are trying to adjust the target for their game. So the uh so so for the the score real ones actually it's uh so you'll have so for the score real ones the buttons uh set this one sets the hours and this one sets the minutes and then for the the uh LCD ones since you have uh two displays so basically you hold left and then hold right to cycle through the modes And then uh so for your clock, for the pyramid one, they're in the back because I wanted to put them in the back pretty much. But yeah, so this other one I've got going with this other guy that makes life complicated for me once again is he wanted [laughter] to do a wood rail. So it's a wood rail and it's a two layered back glass or it's translates, but it's two layered with a a spacing in between the two. And then I had to wrap my mind around that one. And I I never want to be I always want I always say I I always tell him, "It's your thing. We'll make it happen." And then each time it bites me in the butt because it's like, "Oh, really, man? We have to do this now." But then it's I'm apparently I've got a a wood rail kind of cabinet head. So that's going to be part of you know, you know what would be so neat? So neat, right? Since you're doing a wood rail, what if you put like a little mini plunger and a little mini ball in there and there were like vertical wires around the illuminated display and it would like, you know, move them. You could plunge it and have it do the thing. I don't dislike the idea. It is a But one thing though is is now that I've now that I've raised the bar for myself with the centigrade again, it's not the end of the world. I mean, it's just a little LED strip. No, but it's a custom PCB and new programming. But but now that I've implemented an extra thing and now that I have the output, now I'm sort of on the lookout for okay, what can I do with this? So there's a bunch of god thieves with animated back glasses. So Ovette just had an amazing idea in chat. This is like even better than my my woodrail idea. Put a knocker in it for an alarm. I hear that. People ask me that a whole bunch. Uh it's a it is a good idea, man. There's just so many good ideas. Yeah. I mean, not that your clocks are already amazing as is. I don't know why we got on this whole like workshop of tell Phipe how to make his clocks now, but you just you have such an interesting platform and there's so many different parts of pinball machines that you are like, "Yeah, clock splank said clock mods coming." Uhoh. The the the thing I'm struggling with is again I have to keep it going and keep it like reasonably manageable, which is again that's why I have the single PCB. I figured okay, one less thing to manage is the same one. I can order more in bulk blah. So I and then okay I I have to tone down the new stuff because it becomes almost unmanageable and then I need to do a little marketing da but then at the same time I figure okay how about the other thing is like do all the crazy stuff and then that's the thing because there's so many cool things and just come out with new stuff all the time because you know I like following this um Mr. Jones watches thing on the they do like the you've seen what's his name? Uh there's this pin. Oh no. Hold on. Your mic cut off. And we're back. There's a pin. What for the watch? There's there's this pinball machine themed watch and it's like an em and then it's like two robots looking at the at the score, but the score is the hours. Oh, that's cool. I haven't seen that. I'll have to I want to check that out. I'll put it on my Instagram. like they just they just keep coming out with these crazy watches and then I figure, man, I don't do enough crazy stuff either. But then I don't know, it's like trying to juggle all this stuff to just keep it going, you know? So, yeah, for sure. For sure. That's I love that we like wrap it up, but then there's like new ideas that are just like, what? Let's talk about this. Like amazing. Um, and then it's kind of balancing like you have to have some of your money like your more sure money makers that I I also love like the Abracadabra all this stuff. I love those but obviously you know I got it back here but but then it they can't like I did the one with the the local band here the Babyloon. It's again the niche. I saw that that has like an old timey like racetrack kind of thing. And that's so niche that I knew I wouldn't sell a bunch of those, but then I have to have some that sell to finance the ones that don't. So they can't not all be uh so whatever. But yeah, I mean I think so cool. Hot rod, the Pomona fireball. It just it just fits. You'd never uh like I would assume that this was a real pinball machine if I didn't know that this was like a local Exactly. Exactly. Oh yeah, that they they the guy knocked it off out of the park, man. It's but but again it's like it's it's not one of the safer kind of things. Like for instance, I do a Johnny Crap one. I know people in pinball know Johnny Crap. So even and even if I tell him, hey, do a skateboard thing. I don't care what anybody thinks. I like it. But then it's also Johnny Crab, so that helps it. But then if I do the same thing with Sheni, who did the Babylon one, but he's not a pinball guy, so he's not known in pinball. So then, you know, it's there's distraction for for that kind of thing, which I don't really care because I like it. I think it's awesome. And then whatever. You know, the algorithm doesn't like like [laughter] the algorithm hates pinball stuff to begin with. It's already very hard to get eyes onto very pinball specific stuff. It's even harder if you do pinball specific stuff for other people to kind of be interested in it. Like the algorithm just doesn't know how to like source that to people that might be interested in it. And there there's so much there's engineering stuff, there's art stuff involved in it, like collectors like that, like watches. I mean, there's just I feel like a lot of other relative hobbies that make sense that would be interested in this kind of stuff. So, it really is just word of mouth right? Yeah. And it's it's doing stuff again like keep yourself interested. I I see a thing in my head and I want to see it in real life and I sometimes I get to make it happen and then when I see it like, well, there it is, man. All right, cool. And then people find it cool like like the pyramid, you know, like we we sold a bunch of pyramids. All right, cool, man. Other people like it. And sometimes they don't and whatever. Okay, I don't care. I still like it and let's do another, you know? So, whatever. The Great Pyramid would smite them for not getting part of the cult of pinball anyway, so they'll get this. It's okay. Yeah, it's like Raven, you know, you like Craven. Who cares? Who cares what people think? Raven's cool. It's not a good game. I'm just I'm just putting that out there. As much as as much as I preach as much as I preach Ray Raven, you know, you've seen in my shop, I have a dirt uh I was gonna say I have a dirty pool. I have a uh Devil Riders uh pinball machine. And when I went to pick it up, the guy had two machines for sale. Devil Riders and Raven. And I bought the And I bought the Devil. Hi everybody. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. I really appreciate it. Uh, how much was he selling his Raven for? Uh, I think it was like two or 300 bucks more than the Devil Riders. It was like I don't know, 2,000 Canadian or something, which is like real money. I don't Yeah, but then Devil Rider, man, that's Steve Richie ripped it off for Sonic. It has the I'm kidding. Oh, it has an upper play field, too. Here, I wanna I want to pull it up. It has It has a translucent upper playfield. It has spinny whirly things. Sonic. I got my Sonic already. I I think it's Oh, it's a Zachariah. Uh I think it's really funny the people that were complaining and concerned that the upper playfield was going to get so like uh beat up from play that you couldn't see through it. Cuz I'm thinking like, man, like how many lower play fields like like I mean Creature from the Black Lagoon. Like there's so many transparent pieces of stuff that like that's such a stupid thing to be worried about. N absolutely. No, I'm I'm just kidding. Obviously, of course, uh I'm not going to badmouth the king. He did not know about the devil. Look at Wow, this game's crazy. Look at this. Pulling it up now. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Uh very circus the almost like evil conval. Yeah. One feature that's pretty unusual is uh there's a after your last ball you have a um you have a timer and then it just runs down and nothing will stop it except if you manage to get on the upper playfield and then it stops and you can do whatever until you drain down and then it starts counting down again. So it's pretty every switch you hit on the upper playfield it just like pauses the timer for a certain amount of time or No, it just once you're on the upper playfield it's the the timer stops. Oh, okay. So, once the switch registers that the ball went to the upper play field and it just I got it. And then when it detects the switch from That's crazy, man. Oh, yeah. This looks way cooler than [laughter] Yeah. I don't know. Those pops under there, too. This is crazy. Do you still have this game or not? One. Yeah. It's It's the only I figured we need a a game at the shop because whatever. And then I kept looking. There's not a lot of cool stuff in Quebec that pops up. It's often overpriced. There was a volley for freaking 400 Canadian and then I missed it for whatever the reason and then but then I got that one. Do these outline flippers fire the ball back up the out lane? No, it does not make up for it. Uh but yeah, one two cool things. Yes, the flipper the out outside flippers, they will fire it back up. So, and you get one shot and you have to time it just right. But once you got it, you got it. And then the drop targets, they automatically drop down when when there's there's um there's targets in the back. And when you hit the targets, they make the drop targets drop without hitting hitting them because they're dangerous to hit. When you hit them, it sometimes you get a straight down the middle. Got it. But then uh you can you can drop them through the back and then you can go up. So yeah, pretty cool. That's awesome, man. More games need like outlane mini flippers. Like where's that innovation in pinball? You know what I mean? That's cool. I don't know. Leave it. Leave it to the Italians, right? Zakaria is Italian, right? Or Spanish? I forget. I'm getting my Sonic is the Spanish one, right? Yeah. Yeah, pretty sure. Amazing. All right, Philipe, I should probably get to some other work. I wanted to say thank you again. Uh, I appreciate your time. All praise the Great Pyramid. Oh, we got to go full screen for this. Hey, I want to thank you uh my friend and u again you've been very supportive. You bought my stuff. I never gave you any pretty well except for the pyramid clock but yeah I bought I bought every Yeah. Yeah. You bought the stuff. You've been very supportive. I can tell you like it for real and I appreciate it. And thank you for I'm not seeing who's online but I appreciate anybody sitting through this. And then if you want if you have any questions about anything I talked about, hit me up. I'll be glad to uh to to answer and to help you. And um looking forward to to come back to our initial thread. I will be at Pinball Expo again this year. Come see me and I'll be glad to talk with you. And uh again, thank you for having me. Very appreciate it. For sure. And then also like you're very active on Instagram. So if you if you have questions, that's probably I would say the best way to get a hold of you unless you have a different method. Yeah. No, that's that's my main one. Yeah, Instagram is the main one. And uh, of course, if you are interested in a clock, please help support Pinball and Pinball related products. If you think these are neat, they really are. They're worth your They're worth your money. They're worth your time. Uh, I will include all the descriptions, uh, links and stuff that in the VOD when it goes live and you can check out Philip stuff. Even if you're not going to buy one, you can check it out cuz the site's got all sorts of cool photos even though he ripped half of them from my Instagram. You jerk. Uh, [laughter] um, all right. I just I just noticed I had I had put the camera away so that we wouldn't see I'm missing a digit on my uh on my Bobby order, but now Okay, now it's hidden again. Sorry about that. I mean, chat would judge you. I judge you. I judge you for buying this Devil Riders instead of that Raven. Hey, what can you do? True. Nobody's perfect. [laughter] All right, everybody. Again, all praise the great pyramid. We're going to go raid. That's what we do. It's your obligation as a streamer to do so. If you are ending your streams and not rating, shame on you. Uh again, thank you everybody who ask questions and watch this stuff. You know, go follow my [***] too, or whatever once you're done checking out Ice Cream Studios. Uh Philip, stick around so I can say thanks offline. It's going to take me a minute to do the whole transfer. In the meantime, let's go find somebody to raid. Bye. Thank you. Peace out. [music] [music] Does your life lack purpose? Have you wondered is there anything more? Join the cult of pinball. [music] The great pyramid accepts all into the cult of the great order. I [music] am Dr. _(Acquisition: supadata_caption, Enrichment: v5)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-08-03 | Item ID: 16e680df-2a80-40a2-8993-35f325a30046*