# TOPCast 30: Wayne Neyens

**Source:** TOPCast - This Old Pinball  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2007-04-25  
**Duration:** 135m 0s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/showget.php?id=30

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## Analysis

This is a deep historical interview with Wayne Neyens, a legendary Gottlieb pinball designer who worked in the industry from 1936 onwards. Neyens recounts his early career at Western Equipment and Supply Company, his transition to Gottlieb in 1939, and his pivotal role designing approximately 200 games for Gottlieb from 1949 to 1965. The conversation covers industry origins, key innovations (flippers, pop bumpers, bumper switches), relationships with Harry Mabbs and Dave Gottlieb, and specific games like College Days, Mermaid, Slick Chick, and Rose Bowl.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Wayne Neyens started in the pinball business on February 11, 1936 at Western Equipment and Supply Company as a draftsman. — _Neyens speaking directly about his hiring date at Western; he states 'I started on February 11th, 1936.'_
- [HIGH] Neyens was hired at Gottlieb on September 1, 1939, and initially tested play boards before being sent to New York to fix a circuit issue. — _Neyens: 'I started at Gottlieb on September 1st, 1939' and describes the New York assignment within weeks._
- [HIGH] Neyens invented the bumper switch (spoon switch) that replaced the carbon ring design and holds the patent for it. — _Neyens: 'I have the patent on that switch' and 'I designed the, and I have the patent on that switch. The spoons switch? And on that switch, under the bumper, I have a patent on that switch.'_
- [HIGH] College Days (1949) was Neyens' first credited game as designer and sold 2,230 units, which was a strong run compared to later productions. — _Host confirms from IPDB: 'the first game in 1949 that's credited for you as the designer is college days' and 'you sold 2230 of them.'_
- [HIGH] Harry Mabbs invented the flipper, which debuted on Humpty Dumpty in late 1947. — _Neyens: 'in late 47, of course, his invention, the flipper, as seen on Humpty Dumpty, came out.'_
- [HIGH] Dave Gottlieb chose not to patent the flipper, believing 'what's good for the industry is good for Gottlieb.' — _Neyens: 'Dave Gottlieb said that what's good for the industry is good for Galleib. And he believed in that. And he didn't patten, he pattened very little.'_
- [HIGH] Charlie Castaker invented the pop bumper and owned American Molded Products, supplying plastic parts to the entire pinball industry. — _Neyens: 'The pop bumper, yeah. Now, who invented that? That was designed by Charlie Castaker... He owned the plastic company... That was Charlie Castaker.'_
- [MEDIUM] Harry Mabbs left Gottlieb for Williams in mid-1951, allegedly over a compensation dispute regarding the flipper invention. — _Neyens: 'in mid 51, Harry left Gottlieb and went to Williams' and 'I've heard a lot of rumors. One of them was that he went to Dave and wanted money... Harry thought he should have had a big bonus.'_
- [HIGH] Mermaid (1950s) was produced in approximately 600 units and is highly collectible among Gottlieb wood rail machines. — _Host: 'during the 50s, I think you could easily be said that mermaid is the most collectible got-lead single-player wood rail in that era, by far.' Neyens confirms production: 'About 600 of them are self.'_
- [HIGH] Neyens was 17 years old when hired at Western in 1936 and began working part-time while still in high school at Crane Technical High School in Chicago. — _Neyens: 'I was 17' and 'I went to Crane Technical High School in Chicago' and 'I worked about three or four hours a night and Saturday.'_

### Notable Quotes

> "I started on February 11th, 1936... I didn't know a pinball machine from anything, you know. I'd never even seen one."
> — **Wayne Neyens**, early section
> _Establishes Neyens' entry into the industry at age 17 with zero prior pinball knowledge, hired as a draftsman._

> "I made one for them, you know, just as a kid, you know, I made it up. And I took it up and showed it to Jimmy and Jimmy, who wowed, is it work and I sure it'll work. And we'll put it in the game... They gave me a check for $50. That was a lot of money back then."
> — **Wayne Neyens**, mid-section
> _Describes inventing the free-play coin shoot mechanism at age 17 (1937) and selling it for $50, which he notes would have made him rich if he'd retained licensing rights._

> "Dave Gottlieb said that what's good for the industry is good for Galleib. And he believed in that. And he didn't patten, he pattened very little."
> — **Wayne Neyens**, mid-late section
> _Reveals Dave Gottlieb's business philosophy of not aggressively patenting innovations, even major ones like the flipper, to benefit the entire industry._

> "The flipper, that made the game. The industry changed overnight... He said he would never put a flipper on a pinball machine. He obviously changed his mind with that. He changed his mind within a couple of months because he couldn't sell anything."
> — **Wayne Neyens**, late-mid section
> _Describes the transformative impact of Harry Mabbs' flipper invention on the pinball industry and competitors' initial resistance._

> "He was a great idea man. He had ideas coming out as mind all the time and he didn't like to turn the crank, he didn't like to draw the circuit up and he didn't like to wire the game up... You know, he had another idea that he wanted to work on and that's what made him so good."
> — **Wayne Neyens**, early-mid section
> _Describes Harry Mabbs' design methodology and creative genius, noting he delegated implementation details to focus on ideation._

> "I got a cabinet and a playboard and I started to make my own game, just to keep myself busy. And I made college days and I'd say it took maybe a year, you know, which I only worked on it when I had time."
> — **Wayne Neyens**, late section
> _Reveals how Neyens became a full-time designer — building a game in his spare time to fill gaps between test fixture builds._

> "I stayed there until 39... I was making a nickel in our less than the man working next to me... I said, I want to talk to you about money... I'll give you, I'll give you two and a half cents... That was an insult. I picked up my tools, my toolbox, and I walked out the door."
> — **Wayne Neyens**, early-mid section
> _Describes Neyens walking out of Western over a insulting raise offer and spontaneously joining Gottlieb the same day, an act of career boldness in the Depression era._

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Wayne Neyens | person | Legendary Gottlieb pinball designer (1936–1980); designed ~200 games; pioneered bumper switch technology; worked from Western Equipment to Gottlieb. |
| Harry Mabbs | person | Legendary pinball designer at Gottlieb; invented the flipper (Humpty Dumpty, 1947); left Gottlieb for Williams in 1951; close friend of Neyens. |
| Dave Gottlieb | person | Founder/leader of Gottlieb; known for non-aggressive patent strategy ('what's good for the industry is good for Gottlieb'); hired Neyens and encouraged his design career. |
| Lynn Durant | person | Engineer at Western Equipment; Neyens' early boss; later co-founded United Manufacturing during WWII with Harry Williams; eventually convicted of tax evasion. |
| Charlie Castaker | person | Inventor of the pop bumper; founder/owner of American Molded Products (plastic supplier to pinball industry); pioneered plastic parts in pinball starting ~1937. |
| Gottlieb | company | Major pinball manufacturer where Neyens worked 1939–1980; designed majority of Gottlieb's games from ~1949–1965; known for conservative patent strategy. |
| Western Equipment and Supply Company | company | Early pinball manufacturer (1930s); employed Neyens 1936–1939; created Western Deluxe Baseball; went bankrupt twice; founder was Jimmy Johnson. |
| Williams | company | Competitor to Gottlieb; Harry Mabbs joined in 1951; used carbon ring bumper switches longer than Gottlieb, eventually adopting Gottlieb's spoon design. |
| College Days | game | Neyens' first credited design (1949); sold 2,230 units; strong production run developed in Neyens' spare time while building test fixtures. |
| Mermaid | game | Neyens' design (1950s); ~600 units produced; highly collectible Gottlieb wood rail; features mechanical animation of fisherman and fish in back box. |
| Slick Chick | game | Neyens' design from 1950s; often cited as iconic Gottlieb title; competing with Mermaid for most collectible status among wood rails. |
| Humpty Dumpty | game | Gottlieb game (1947) featuring Harry Mabbs' first flipper implementation; transformative innovation for the pinball industry. |
| American Molded Products | company | Plastic supply company owned by Charlie Castaker; supplied pop bumpers and plastic parts to entire pinball industry starting mid-1930s. |
| Crane Technical High School | organization | Technical school in Chicago where Neyens received drafting education; school's job notice led to his hiring at Western Equipment in 1936. |
| Rose Bowl | game | Neyens' design (1951); early game in his full-time designer era at Gottlieb. |
| Queen of Hearts | game | Neyens' design from 1950s era; mentioned as collectible title; personal favorite of host. |
| Niagara | game | Neyens' design (1951); contemporary with Rose Bowl in early full-time designer period. |
| Basketball | game | Neyens' second design after College Days; developed while building test fixtures in spare time. |
| Casey Jones | game | Neyens' early design in series after College Days and Basketball; part of his 'film work' before becoming full-time designer. |
| Spot Bowler | game | Neyens' design; host indicates this is a 'really enjoy' game from the era just before/after Mabbs' departure. |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Pinball industry origins and early history (1930s–1940s), Gottlieb's game design philosophy and manufacturing culture, The invention and impact of the flipper (Harry Mabbs, 1947), Wayne Neyens' design methodology and career development, Technical innovations: bumper switch, pop bumper, free-play mechanism
- **Secondary:** WWII's impact on pinball manufacturing, Rivalry and friendship between Gottlieb and Williams designers, Plastic manufacturing in pinball (Charlie Castaker, American Molded Products)

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.82) — Neyens speaks fondly of Gottlieb, Dave Gottlieb, and Harry Mabbs despite competitive dynamics. Reflects pride in his contributions and innovations. Nostalgia dominates the tone. Minor frustration around the $50 free-play patent deal and Mabbs' departure, but these are presented as historical facts rather than grievances. Host is respectful and celebratory throughout.

### Signals

- **[historical_signal]** Detailed first-hand account of pinball industry emergence (1936–1950), including Western Equipment, Gottlieb culture, WWII impact, and immediate post-war recovery. (confidence: high) — Neyens provides specific dates, names, locations, and production numbers (e.g., hired Feb 11 1936, joined Gottlieb Sept 1 1939, College Days sold 2,230 units).
- **[design_innovation]** Documentation of three major innovations: bumper spoon switch (patented by Neyens), pop bumper (Charlie Castaker), and free-play mechanism (Neyens prototype sold for $50 in 1937). (confidence: high) — Neyens holds patent on spoon switch; Castaker credited as pop bumper inventor; Neyens describes building free-play prototype and receiving $50 from 'A.M. laboratory' on Oct 5, 1937.
- **[design_philosophy]** Dave Gottlieb's strategic decision not to patent major innovations (flipper, etc.) with rationale 'what's good for the industry is good for Gottlieb'—a stark contrast to modern IP strategies. (confidence: high) — Neyens: 'Dave Gottlieb said that what's good for the industry is good for Galleib. And he believed in that. And he didn't patten, he pattened very little.'
- **[personnel_signal]** Harry Mabbs' departure from Gottlieb to Williams (mid-1951) attributed to unresolved compensation dispute over flipper invention; Neyens became full-time designer as a result. (confidence: medium) — Neyens: 'in mid 51, Harry left Gottlieb and went to Williams... One of them was that he went to Dave and wanted money... Harry thought he should have had a big bonus... Dave was not that kind of a guy.'
- **[product_launch]** College Days (1949) officially credited as Neyens' first design; 2,230 units sold, representing strong commercial success for the era and launching his full-time design career. (confidence: high) — IPDB confirmation from host; Neyens describes building it in spare time over ~1 year; Dave Gottlieb then offered him full-time designer role.
- **[technology_signal]** Early plastic adoption in pinball (Charlie Castaker, ~1936–1937); initial poor shrinking quality; evolution toward injection molding mentioned. (confidence: high) — Neyens: 'Charlie was a salesman for a spring company... He found out about plastic. Now plastics were just coming out in 1936... He made a little molding machine... the plastic would shrink... A month later it would be loose.'
- **[gameplay_signal]** Flipper (late 1947, Humpty Dumpty) transformed pinball from purely skill-of-shot game to interactive amusement device; industry shifted rapidly post-flipper adoption. (confidence: high) — Neyens: 'The flipper, that made the game... Before that, no one knew how to really make an amusement device. Wasn't any fun to play... The flipper, that made the game. The industry changed overnight.'
- **[competitive_signal]** Williams maintained carbon ring bumper switches longer than Gottlieb; eventually adopted Gottlieb's superior spoon design; Gottlieb allowed cross-licensing without enforcing patent. (confidence: high) — Neyens: 'Williams used that carbon ring well into the 50s. And whenever I work on those games, I hate them. I always convert them over to Galleib... We just didn't care. We told him, Galleib used to tell him, what's good for the industry is good for me.'
- **[collector_signal]** Mermaid (1950s) established as highly collectible Gottlieb wood rail; ~600 units produced; features distinctive mechanical animation (fisherman and fish); competing status with Slick Chick. (confidence: high) — Host: 'during the 50s... mermaid is the most collectible got-lead single-player wood rail in that era, by far.' Neyens: 'About 600 of them are self.' Host owns both Mermaid and Slick Chick; prefers Slick Chick personally.
- **[industry_signal]** Western Equipment employed 100–200 at peak; Gottlieb roughly twice that size; many small manufacturers competed in 1930s; consolidation occurred post-WWII. (confidence: medium) — Neyens: 'Western was a very small company... from three people... to maybe 100... Gottlie was a little larger, I'd say twice as large as Western.'
- **[supply_chain_signal]** Charlie Castaker's American Molded Products became centralized supplier of pop bumpers and plastic parts to entire pinball industry; industry-wide design standardization via single supplier. (confidence: high) — Neyens: 'he made two kinds of pop bumpers... He gave all the companies both versions... he marketed to all the companies... That was Charlie Castaker... And he basically marketed this to all the companies.'

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## Transcript

You're listening to Topcast, this old pinballs online radio. For more information visit them anytime, www.marvin3m.com. Flash Topcast. Today on Topcast we have a really, really special guest. This is a gentleman that worked for Gottlieb since before World War II until 1980. And he designed some of the most famous Gottlieb pinball machines of all time. From approximately 1949 up to 1965 he designed basically all their games. Been working in pinball since the 1930s and I'm really, really proud to have them on the show. Special guest. I'd like to welcome Wayne Nions of Gottlieb. He started out in the late 1930s with Western and then went to Gottlieb. He designed nearly 200 games for Gottlieb and let's talk to Wayne Nions right now, the game designer for Gottlieb. You're right on time. Hard to believe. Hard to believe. Tell me about when you started getting involved with pinball in your life. Started in the business in 1936. At Gottlieb? I don't know. I had a company called Western Equipment and Supply Company. Okay. Oh yeah, yeah. I heard Western they made some great baseballs. Yeah, we made a great baseball game. In fact, that's the only thing that kept you and Johnson going, you know, as that baseball game. And we had actually two baseball games. The first one didn't work too well and it almost put them out of business. It bankrupted them and then three of us fell as there. There was Don Anderson and myself and follow my name of the Emil Goodman. And Emil Goodman was an electrical man and Don, he was just all around guy and of course me, I was just an all around guy too. You know, this, but you go back a little further than that in 1936 when I started there, I started on February 11th, 1936. And I didn't know a pinball machine from anything, you know. I'd never even seen one. Well, how did you get in the Jimmy needed a, a, a, a draftsman and he, he said, he called up Crane Technical High School where I happen to be going to high school. And this, now this in 1936, this is in the middle of the depression. I mean, things were tough. Jobs were hard to get. And, you know, and they sent us notice around the high schools and for a draftsman. I was pretty good at drafting, so I went and I answered the, the ad and got hired. And I got hired on February 11th, 1936. Were they teaching drafts that drafting in your high school at that time? Or you knew? Oh, yes. So, teaching, I was at, I went to Crane Technical High School in Chicago, which is a very, very good technical school. It was a long way from my home. I had to take the street car there. It's about 10 miles from my home, but I go every day. And I was very good at drafting. My best subject, really. And they taught us electrical work, forage, radio, a little, a little of everything along with other subjects. And, anyway, that's how I happened to get to Western. And, of course, very fortunate. And then, my first job was to draw a payout unit. And they had the unit there, and I had to just put it on paper. And my boss, at the time, was Lynn Durant. You heard of Lynn Durant, I'm sure. Of course, you started United. Sure. Lynn Durant worked the engineer on his own work. That we were working on. And he was my boss. And he was just a young man, of course, at that time. He was probably, I don't know how old he was, but he seemed like an old man, but he's probably 25 years old, because I was 17. And so he gave me the job to do. And I did the job for him. Got to know him very well. And I'll tell you, if Lynn Durant had started United, you know, when I left Western, I would have went with him, because we were friends, you know. But he was, at that time, designing, I think, with Harry Williams over at Exhibit. And so he was over there, and, of course, I needed a job. I was working in Western. I'll give you a little story. I want a little story on it. Yeah, I definitely want a little story. Well, Jimmy went bankrupt twice. And both times he kept me on. Well, first of all, I was going back a little further. When I was drafting, that was fine after school. I worked about three or four hours a night and Saturday. But then when I graduated from high school, and I wanted a full-time job, Jimmy Johnson told me, we can't keep you on full-time. We don't have that much drafting to do. But you can work part-time drafting. I said, oh, no, that won't do. I won't have that. And I said, can't you give me a job in the shop? Can I work down in the shop? Which is the best thing that ever happened. Because they gave me a job in the shop. And I filled in all over. I ran cables. I soldered. I ran a punch press. I did everything. And by doing that, I learned the whole trade. And then at that time, games were just changing over to PowerPacks. Before that, they were all battery-operated games. So they'd send these games in. These operators are bringing the games in. And I would work on them and take PowerPacks out. Or take the batteries out and put PowerPacks on them. And those kind of things. So I learned the pinball business pretty thoroughly. So a PowerPack was essentially a transformer. But a transformer with a rectifier. Oh, because it was running on DC. Running on DC, yeah. Okay. And of course, you know, the operators were scared to death at games at that time because they weren't used to plugging it into the wall. Guys, that was the dangerous thing. But when he went bankrupt, and he kept me on and Don Anderson and Emil Goodman, and we built the, we built the baseball game. And that was his successful game. And he got really going on that and we did real well. And then I got put on the, ended up doing final inspection work. And I was a final inspector. And I was in charge of the whole line. I was only 18 years old. Now, on the baseball, you mean Western's Deluxe Baseball. Kind of was a squareish cabinet. Yeah, it was a square cabinet. Right, right. Kind of almost had a jukeboxish type look to it more kind of. Yeah, I did. And you know, see, somebody had a show here not too long ago. I think, Rob had one, I think it was. Yeah, and the front drawer in it, it had like a drawer that you pulled out. Yeah, you pulled the drawer out. That's right. Like a filing cabinet drawer. Yeah. And that's where all the lecture mechanical stuff was. That's where it was. Yeah, that's, that was really unique. I, I never seen a game that did that. The relay bank was on the right hand side. You know, I can remember that as if it was yesterday. A lot of things I can't remember, but some things that happened in Western, I can remember very clearly. I'll tell you a little interesting thing to happen at Western. You know, at that time, there were no free play, free play was not known. And Jimmy bought the patent to the free game, the push shoot. That, you know, you can push it in, you put a nickel and you push it in, or you can push a, hold a lever on the bottom of it and push it in. That was a free play coin shoot. And he bought the, the, the rights to that coin shoot. And he didn't know what to do with it. Nobody knew what a free play was, or how to use it, how to make a novelty game. And Harry matches there at the time. And he was trying, you know, and so on. But they didn't have a free play unit. They didn't know what a free play unit was. So I made one for them, you know, just as a kid, you know, I made it up. And I took it up and showed it to Jimmy and Jimmy, who wowed, is it work and I sure it'll work. And we'll put it in the game. So I did. And it worked fine. And so he called up, see who that was at the time. A, B, T or something. A, M, laboratory. Okay. And GM laboratory came over and they bought the rights to the my free play unit. They gave me a check for $50. With that was a lot of money back then. I assume it was a lot of money. That was a lot of money. That was on October the 5th, 1937. And what did Jimmy say? He was a thrilled, you know. Did he get a piece of that? Did he get a piece of that? Did he have the, now he knew how to, how to make a game, how to make a, a free play game of an amusement device. Well, did he get a piece of that, that licensing as it was? No, I didn't get nothing, but the $50. You know, if I had a piece of it, I'd be a rich man today. That's pretty good. All right, so how long were you at Western for? I stayed there until 39. Okay. In 1939, I was a final inspector in the line. And I was making a nickel in our less than the man working next to me. And that man's name was Tony Birdall. I'll never forget him. And he used to rip the delivered daylights out of me because he was making more than I made. And so I told Jimmy, I said, I want to talk to you about money. And he said, okay, come up the office. So I went up. And then he said, now we talk. And he said, okay, I'll give you, I'll give you two and a half cents. And now we're more. I said, okay, Jimmy, that's great. So I went down to my working spot at the end of the line. I picked up my tools, my toolbox, and I walked out the door. I was two, one o'clock in the afternoon. I worked here. On the street car. You agreed to or raised, but then you left? I left. Two and a half cents he gave me. So you that was an insult? That was an insult. That was an insult. Because now I'm still making a lesson. The guy's working under me. Oh, under me. So I get on the street car and I'm going home. And I go past Jen Cole. I knew guys that work at Jen Cole. And we were kids, you know, we used to play baseball. We had a baseball league. So I got to know a lot of the kids. And anyway, I go over, I'm going past Jen Cole. And I get off the street car and at the mercy. And Gottlieb is two blocks west. And Jake goes two blocks back. So I, well, with the heck, I go over to Gottlieb. Within a half hour, I was testing play boards in the Gottlieb play board line. And did you get the pay increase that you wanted to? I got ten cents an hour more than I was making it Gottlieb. Are you mean a western? That western, yeah. Sent an hour more. So now when you left western, did you say maps? Where was maps at? At maps that go on to Gottlieb. So he was already there. He was already at Gottlieb. And that's the reason why when I stood in the corner debating which way to go, I knew Harry. And see Harry had a son, by name of Bud, Budmaps. And Budmaps and I were of the same age. And Budmaps worked at Western along with me. And him and I used to horse around a lot. And we go out dating at night, you know. And him and I and Harry liked me to go along with Bud because Bud was a little bit of a wild character. And I was a little, I was a good influence on him. And so Harry always liked me to go out with Bud. And so Harry and I became friends too, you know. And so when Harry was at Gottlieb, I said, well, I'll go over there. So I did and I got a job and I'm testing play boards. And then of course I could do anything in the shop. I knew everything about the game. And now did you even talk to the people at Gento at all? Or did you do it? I never went in the building. Now see if I had gone in a jenkel, that's a quartet. Quartet, yeah. I would have been with Quartet him and the other guys, you know. But I didn't know Quartet at the time. But I knew other kids because we had this baseball league of the manufacturers. There were a lot of manufacturers at that time. And I used to play baseball and I played on the Western team. So I got to know these guys and you know everybody kind of knew everybody. So you didn't know Steve Cordack and you didn't know Harvey Heiss at the time? I didn't know them. You didn't know them. So I was the easy way to go over to Gottlieb because you knew somebody over there. That's right. Okay, very cool. So now what year was this that you started at Gottlieb? 39. 39. So I start there on, well, I see it was in August, I think, 39. I see if I got it down recently. Yeah, I started at Gottlieb on September 1st, 1939. Now you were doing, you were testing the boards. I testing play boards, yeah. Right. Now how long was it before you started taking on more responsibility? Well, I did that for about a month, maybe more or less, not more, maybe about a month. And we had a problem with one of the games, I know which that game was building at the time. And we shipped out the message games to New York and they had an error and they needed a circuit change. They had no one to extend. So they picked me, which is very nice. Of course Dave and I got to know Dave very well in that month. And anyway, he sent me to New York. So I got rid of my job into play board line and lost my job in a play board line, I might say. And I went to New York and I worked there for about two, three weeks. And then I came back and of course they had a fine job for me now, you know, somebody else was doing the play boards. And so I got put in the engineering room and I started working in there and and one thing led to another, you know. Now was that where Harry was working to Harry Mab's? Well, he was in the design room at which it was adjacent to the engineering room. So was was Harry designing games at that time? Oh yes, yeah. He was the only game designer they had at that time. So he kind of got into that position rather quickly then? Well, he was doing design over at Western too. Oh, okay. That's what he was primarily a designer and then of course he, that was a crazy place at Western. It was constantly in a state of flux that just, I don't really, they kept changing positions all the time. Harry was a designer supposedly, but then he became the factory foreman and he ran the factory for a while. And of course, but not our work in under him and we out of ball him and I, but he did all kinds of things over there and then when they went bankrupt, why he laid everybody off and then Harry went and he got tired of that being laid off and and he went over to Gottlieb and then got a job as a designer and did very well over there. And he was well liked. The Harry was a very likable person and he did very well over there and of course him and I, I did a lot of work for Harry at that time. He was a great idea man. He had ideas coming out as mind all the time and he didn't like to turn the crank, he didn't like to draw the circuit up and he didn't like to wire the game up and those kind of things were below him. You know, he had another idea that he wanted to work on and that's what made him so good. He was so many ideas going all the time that he was a great, great designer. Now, when World War II broke out, how did everything change? Well, everything stopped in the industry of course. And a lot of some people like Durant and Williams got together, I guess you know of that story. Well, I like you. A little company that rebuilt games. They bought old games and they stripped them down, take the wires and stretch them out and bundle them up into colors and so forth and they realized they'd take apart and clean them and so it had built new games from that. That's what they did during the war. But God leave itself, they went into war work. They did a lot of tool and die making. They operated, they did a lot of punch press work. You know that machine shop type of thing. Right. Right. Now, I heard a story and I don't know if it's true, but a story that Durant and Williams, you know, they were in business together during the war and then after the war, they had some sort of, you know, they split off. Of course Durant went to United, became United Manufacturing and Harry Williams became, of course, Williams. Yeah. I heard that what caused them to really split up was that they were fighting over a woman. Well, I mean, is there any truth to that story? I never heard that, but it could be. That's what someone told me. It's only that they flipped a coin to see who got the gal. And the guy that got the gal had to leave the company. Well, you know, that sounds like Durant. I don't sound like Williams, but it sounds like Durant. So it could be or could not be. So I tell you, see Durant was married when I knew him. And his wife was very sick and she eventually died. And he was really taken, took it hard. He really loved that woman. And when she died, all the time she was sick, she was lingered for months and months and months and all that time I knew him. And he was excited himself with this terrible thing going on. So, but of course later on he became quite a man about town. I can't believe the story, but I can't verify it. Okay, I just care. Yeah, and I heard that Harry won. Harry Williams won. And he had to leave United. And of course, that's what started Williams. Well, it could be, but I wouldn't. I might just be Fishhockey, who knows. Yeah, it could be anything, you know. So now, after the war, well, just to kind of back up a little bit, how big was Gottlie compared to like Western? Was it a bigger company? Yeah, so it was bigger than Western. Yeah, Western was a very small company. We had, oh, I'd say, we went all the way from three people working in the factory to, I would say 200 maybe at Mac. That's maybe not that. Maybe 100 be Mac. Because it wasn't that big a factory. Now, what about Gottlie? Well, Gottlie was a little larger, I'd say twice as large as Western. Now, after the war, how long was it before you guys were making, you know, pin games again? We were making pin games right away, right away. After the war, I was in the war. I went, I was in the Air Force and stationed out in Maine, as a matter of fact, most of the time. After the war, the war ended in Japan. I got to leave. I came home. And of course, you know, you always go back to factory and see who's around, who's there. I went back and our superintendent, the name was Tony Gerard at the time, brought me in the office and all, and Dave came in and everybody in there, they're talking as well. When you're going to get out, when you're coming back, you know, and all that, how do I know it? You know, they're slow and getting out. It'll be a while, I'm afraid, but Tony says, well, we'll see what we can do for you. And I'll take care of it, you know. I could outtake care of this. And within two weeks, I was out. Got out of service. And they were happy to have you back. Oh, yeah. And I went back and I said, well, you know, I got to have, I'm coming to work right away now, but I got to have two weeks off in the summer time because I'm going to get married. And I need a couple of weeks off. It's like, okay, take any two weeks you want. I said, okay, you got to deal. And I went back to work. And of course, and gradually, all the guys came back. Most of them, we lost a few people in the war. But most of them came back and we started up again. And I think the first game was kind of a carry-over stage-door canteen was the first game after the war. And I think we had the game left over from before. Harry, Harry Mabs, he went down to Texas during the war. And he ran a route of the fitting game route. And I guess that did fairly well at it. But of course, he wanted to get back into the factory and the designing and the guys. So he came back and start designing again. And we took off and we had quite a run for men on. Now, Harry was pretty much the primary game designer at the time, right, Harry Mabs. He was the designer, yes. So, and then in late 47, of course, his invention, the flipper, as seen on Humpty Dumpty, came out. Yes. I mean, was that like a giant kick of the pants for Galleib? Oh, yes. It sure was. It enabled the game, the thin game, to become an amusement device. Before that, no one knew how to really make an amusement device. Wasn't any fun to play. You go, you shot a ball and oh, yeah, there was a little fun to it. But the flipper, that made the game. The industry changed overnight. And to lend a rant at that time is a little interesting story. He said he would never put a flipper on a pinball machine. He obviously changed his mind with that. He changed his mind within a couple of months because he couldn't sell anything. Right. Right. Right. Now, so the flipper came out. Now, why didn't Galleib patten that? Well, I'll tell you why. Dave Gottlieb said that what's good for the industry is good for Galleib. And he believed in that. And he didn't patten, he pattened very little. In fact, there's only one thing that I know for sure that he pattened. And that was something that was my bumper switch. You know that the silver point that operates the bumper circuit? You talking about like on a pop-up or there's any angle kickers. On all the bumpers. No. Oh, okay. It used to be a carbon ring with a peg in it. Right. I hate those things. Yeah, they were a disaster. And can you imagine that on a pop-up? Yeah, it was awful because Williams used that carbon ring well into the 50s. And whenever I work on those games, I hate them. I always convert them over to Galleib. The spoons. Yeah. Well, I designed the, and I have the patent on that switch. The spoons switch? And on that switch, under the bumper, I have a patent on that switch. Now, eventually though, Williams went to that. Everybody went to it. Yeah. So what happened to the patent expired or something? Oh, no, no. We just didn't care. We told him, Galleib used to tell him, what's good for the industry is good for me and what you do is good for us will get long. And he was that way. He didn't care. Huh. He didn't care, you know? Right. Well, that's pretty friendly business practice. Yes, he was. Dave was a gentleman. I'll tell you that. I knew Dave very, very, very well. Now, on the internet pinball database, the first game in 1949 that's credited for you as the designer is college days. Yeah, that's right. Now, how did you step up to be in a game designer? Well, I tell you, at that time, I was building test fixtures for the factory. Every time a game came out, my job was to build three test fixtures for the bottom line and three for the playboard line and three for the light box line. That was my job. So I would hustle along and get that job done in a hurry. I get, if we ran, say we ran a month, I could build test fixtures for the next game and maybe two weeks. You know, and I had two weeks, I had nothing to do. So I'd go out and shoot trouble in the shop, but that was all. But then I, what I did, I got a cabinet and a playboard and I started to make my own game, just to keep myself busy. And I made college days and I'd say it took maybe a year, you know, which I only worked on it when I had time. Which is a long time, a year's a long time at that. I mean, you know, it was like a three or four-week game development period. Yeah, so I only worked maybe an hour here and an hour there, two, three hours, wherever, wherever I could fill it in. I would design the game. So when you showed it to, I assume you showed it to David and Harry, what was, what was their reaction? Well, they liked it, you know. In fact, the college days did very well. That was a very good game. Yeah, you sold 2230 of them, which is... That was a good run. Yeah, that was a really good run. I mean, compared to the production of games after that, you know, everything's like a thousand or less. And here, you more than double that. That was a pretty good game. And, you know, that started me and then I built another game. I think it was Basketball. Yeah, Basketball was your next one. And then Casey Jones. Yep. Those were just, you know, just my film work. And of course, Dave loved it, you know, and Harry loved it too. He liked me and he encouraged me too. So we were friends. We visit back, in fact, he lived not too far from me. And we visit back and forth in our pre-time, Sunday's batteries. But, um... But, I started, and then of course, Harry left, went back over to Williams. And Dave came to me and he said, Wayne, you have full time designer go over in that room and get busy. And I did. Okay, now, in 19, around 1949, also the pop bumper was invented too. What's that? The pop bumper, you know, the... The pop bumper, yeah. Yeah, now, who invented that? That was designed by Charlie Castaker. Okay. You ever hear the name? No, never. Well, Charlie Castaker was the supplier for plastics for the whole industry. His company was American molded products, I believe it was. American molded products. And he made two kinds of pop bumpers. One, as you know it today. And one was a little different. It was a... A wire wound spring. That was about... Oh, I would guess half-inch in diameter, maybe... maybe five-h in diameter. And it circled the bumper as a color. And then there was a... Inside of that was a... lever, I guess you'd call it, which pulled down against that spring and pushed outwards. The spring would expand and hit the bumper, hit the ball and go outwards. And he had the two versions. And he gave us each one. He gave all the companies both versions. And we put it on playboards, we fooled around with it. And I think we all agreed that the one we came out with, that we finally used was the right one. And so he was the designer of it. And who did he work for? He worked for the plastic company? He owned the plastic company. Oh, he owned it. Now he owned it. That was Charlie Castaker. And he basically marketed this to all the companies. He marketed to all the companies, right? It's pretty smart on his point. In fact, he started out. Charlie was a salesman for a spring company. Now we're talking back in 1936-37. He was a salesman. And he found out about plastic. Now plastics were just coming out in 1936. There was no plastic before that. So he made a little molding machine. And he made a post. And he brought it around. I remember him bringing it to Western. And he wanted to sell it. And so that's the first time we put it on the game was back in about 37. I guess you start putting it on the game. 37.38. It was a plastic then. We're not like they are today. They were poor plastics. They were shrink. You put a screw into the board to screw that post down. And a month later it would be loose because the plastic would shrink. It would try to go back to its original shape. I guess it's a glob. So he came along ways in the business. And this was the first company that supplied the plastic parts. For a lot of people. And he was doing like the injection molded style plastics. Right? Pardon? He was doing like that. You're talking about injection molded style. That's injection molding. Right. Right. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So now in mid 51, Harry left Gottlieb and went to Williams. Harry Bans. Now why did he do that? Why would he leave Gottlieb? Well, that's a good question. And I really don't know the real answer. But I've heard a lot of rumors. One of them was that he went to Dave and wanted money. And see, this was shortly after the flipper. And Harry thought he should have had a big bonus. A lot of money. And Dave was not that kind of a guy. He never gave you money like that. He took care of you at the end of the year. He always got a bonus. Not for any particular thing we did. On a daily basis. If you did something on a daily basis, that's part of your job. And I think I was there. I was designing. He knew I could design. And I was a kid. Well, I was more than a kid. I was in 41. 48, 49, I guess. I got up to 49. So I was 30 years old. But anyway, I was there. And Harry was getting pressure on him for money, I guess. And that's what I think. I'm not sure. But that's part of it. And I was there. And he had a nation of whole. I was the Asian whole. And of course, even though Harry left, and we were a little bit of a cloud, by Harry and I were still friends. And we still visited a little bit, not as much as we used to, because we were competitors. But we were still friends. That's how I could be a game of full-time designer. But he left. And I feel kind of responsible for it. If I wasn't there, they probably would have paid him. I don't know. Now, you did some really great games in this era too. And just before Harry maps left, and even just after he left, all in there, you had a run of some amazing games. Like, a couple that I really like are like Spot Bowler. That's one that I really enjoy. I think it's a great game. Happy Goal Lucky. That's another one. The big one that you did, that's like the all-time got-lead collectible. Probably not. It's certainly number one is Mermaid. Mermaid. Mermaid. Tell me about mermaid. Why did I do it go to Slate? Slick Chick. No, mermaid. Mermaid's where it's at. They know everybody has their favorite. Well, during the 50s, I think you could easily be said that mermaid is the most collectible got-lead single-player wood rail in that era, by far. And they're really hard to find because you didn't really make a lot of them. Oh, let's see. About 600 of them are self. 600, yeah. Yeah, and they had a course of mechanical animation in the backbox. Where the fisherman's line pulls up. And that old fish. Yeah, the fish in the shoe. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know I still got that fish. I think I still have it. I mean, I give it as somebody I don't know, but I've had it in my toolbox for years and years. I may have given it to somebody now I'm thinking about it, but I've had it here for so long. Well, I've made a little fish, you know, and colored them and hung them in there. Yeah. Well, now tell me about mermaid. How did you come up with that design? I have no idea. No idea. That is very amazing. I don't think anyone ever said mermaid was so popular, right? Oh, yeah, it's big-time collectible. Everybody talks about slick chick. I mean, I own a slick chick and I own a mermaid. And I know which one I'd pick. And it is a slick chick. Yeah, no, I mean personal favorite. Queen of hearts. Oh, yeah, I was going to kind of come up to that one too. I was going to go kind of go through this chronologically and see if you had any stories about some of these games. Like, for instance, Rose Bowl. That was another one of your games. It's a fairly early game, you know. Yeah, 1951. Rose Bowl. Another good one from that era in 1951 again is Niagara. Oh, Niagara? I can tell you a story in Niagara. Yeah, tell me about Niagara. Great game. That was one of my favorite games. And so I took one home and had it in my basement for the kids to play with, you know. And what I do, what I used to do was not take a game off production line or nothing like that, but I would take the sample game and I'd take a new playboard and get a cabinet. I take a home and I transfer everything onto the new playboard and build it up. So I'd have a game. Yeah, because you're saying the engineering samples were basically... Yeah, I kind of engineering samples. Yeah, whitewoods with no graphics on them, right? Yeah, but I got the board from our cabinet company. You know, they sent me one over and I just have a screen and then I'd go and build it up. But my kids love that game. They played it constantly and the neighbor kids would come over and play it constantly. So I had a friend down the street who sold Encyclopedias. He was president of the San Pia, and he was a procanica. And he liked that game too. I tell you what I'll do when he said, I'll trade you a set of Encyclopedias for that game. So I sold the game to him and got the set of Encyclopedias. My kids wouldn't speak to me for about a month. They're mad at me, you know. They didn't like the Encyclopedias. They wanted that game back again. You still there? Yeah, I've listened to that. I think that's a great story. No, anyway, I got rid of that game. I had to get him a new one. So I got a different game for him. Now, Niagara was unique in that it was the first game to use trap holes. Yeah. Okay. Now, what was the thinking behind trap holes? Well, you know, tried to come up with something different. It was all. It wasn't the plan thing. And I wanted to, you know, it was a constant fight to make a game that played the right length of time. And if you wanted to close up the bottom to give a little better action, the game played too long. So you had to come up with something. And so I came up with those trap holes. And they were a lot of fun after a while. You got to your like them. And then, you know, to stay with the same subject, Queen of Hearts was a game that was the first game where the balls fell through it. You shot for the out-hole. Right. It was the first game with what we call gobble holes. Yeah, first gobble holes. Right. The trap hole and gobble holes. My thinking at that time was, could I possibly make a game where a player would take and shoot for the out-hole? You know, is that possible? And I made it and not believing it. I didn't believe it, you know, that you do it. I got it together and I played it and you know, it was still binding. I loved that game. And when I got through with it and it was okay for production and so forth and I had to go on to make another game, I couldn't do it. I said, I can't make another game. That game is the end of all games. It took me, I know, months to get over that game. I loved it. I loved to play it. And to this day, I still like that game. Oh, yeah. I have a Queen of Hearts and it's an amazing game. It's a great playing game and it has, yes, a lot of people complain about gobble holes. But the simple fact of gobble holes is that they reward you for a good shot and they take away for a bad shot. And it makes you a better player. You know, it just makes you a better player. You know, when it game, playing a game with gobble holes. Yeah, but the gobble hole has to mean something. It's got to mean, have a big meaning to it and that to me is the whole thing. And I love that game and I still do. A lot of people say, you know, the slick chick is a better game, but I'll tell you that Queen of Hearts is again, it's hard to beat. Now, when in like Queen of Hearts, when you put it a ball in each one of the holes, it represents part of the hand, the part of the card hand. Yeah. And if you get a ball in each one of the holes, you can win a lot of replace in that game. That's right. And you and Gottlieb had a replay unit that went up to 26 units. It had a maximum of 26 credits that you could have on the credit wheel. Now, did Dave Gottlieb or did anybody ever come up to you and say, you know, look, this is the maximum number of credits we want, any particular game to win or not win or whatever. How did you come up with that whole concept? Because you could win, you know, in one shot, you know, you could win a whole boatload of replays and just, you know, in one shot. Yeah, but that didn't happen very often. No, no, it didn't happen very often. But, you know, I mean, there was some, some games that it really was huge on, one I could think of is Sweet Adilite, where if you get all the rollovers and you're at zero credits and you hit every rollover, you win 26, that replay unit just keeps knocking off the knackered knocks and the replay unit kicks off a replay for all the way until that credits max switch is opened up, which is at 26 credits. Yeah. You know, that to me, that's pretty amazing that you could win 26 credits in one game. I'll tell you something about that Sweet Adilite. That game was taken from a bingled card. And you know, bingles was a dirty word at that time. Can you picture Sweet Adilite? Yeah, you're right. In the back glass, it's got a girl with an adding machine. And it's got like, yeah, it's got a bunch of numbers in it like off a tape coming out of an old-style adding machine. Well, you know, that's what it looks like, you see. But that was originally taken from a bingo card. Those numbers are all numbers from a bingo card. And if I had told Dave Gottlieb that that game was made from a bingo card, he would have thrown me out. He didn't like bingles. Yeah, because that was sweet Adilite. You pulled him, you know? Sweet Adilite was 1955. Happy days, which was 1952, the one with the school teacher and the kids on the back glass. That was the one of Parker's best pictures, best designs, wouldn't it? Yes. He outdid himself on that one. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, the artwork on Happy Days is among the best of that of that era. That's for sure. Yeah, it's got kind of like a tic-tac-toe thing going on. I don't know, line was the biggest one was taken from a bingo card. Happy days, I don't recall that. I don't think I had anything to do with a bingo card. Okay. Now, tell me about the double award system and how that came up. Boy, oh boy. The double award. Yeah, well, you know, that was just a gimmick thrown in and I thought it was a pretty good idea. And we ran it for quite a while. And I don't know whether it made any money or not, but it was a gimmick, you know? That's all it was, it was a gimmick. And we had it for a while. I don't know if anyone ever used it. Yeah, just to explain, you put a single nickel in to play the game, but if you put two nickels in. If you put two nickels, you get twice the free plays. Right. Yeah, for that, that was just a gimmick and it lasted for a few games and that was all. I don't think anyone ever played it that way. It was, you know, a novelty game. Why would you put two nickels in? I don't know why I don't even know why I did it, you know, but it's just playing around, I guess. So that was your idea? Yeah, I have to lay claim to that. I'll tell you one thing that I don't think you've ever heard. Maybe you have four player games. Do we came out with a four player game? Right. In 1954 was the first four player. What was it? Super jumbo. Super jumbo, right. Well, I made super jumbo, of course, and we had a big show showing in our factory and we had all our distributors come in and look at it and of course they all cried, you know, so much money and all that. And anyway, we sold a few and then they kept crying about the money and so we went to two players. So we all alternated four players, four players, two players, and usually the weaker of the games that we thought was the weaker of the games, which meant nothing. You know, our opinion really just mean anything. We would make a two player. If we thought the game was really good, we'd make it a four player. And that's how it went. But after we were into it for maybe three or four or five years, I don't know how many years it was. I wanted to find out. My thought wasn't, I made the first four player was that if you could get four guys playing the game, one of them would win a free play. And if one of them won a free play, the other three couldn't walk away and leave them with that one free game. And they wouldn't walk away and leave it on the game on the machine. So they would stay up but some more nickels in. But I thought I wanted to find out just exactly what percentage of people played these games. How many were times there were four and how many times were three. So I sent out a game on location with meters. And I metered the play on that game for a long period of time, months. And I found out that the majority of the time, one player played. And a amount of times that four players were actually playing was very, very small percentage of the time. I don't have the figures anymore in my head, but I remember I was shocked that still had been a four player game generally one player played. And two was better than of course, three four players in a very seldom play. But still they ate one of four players in some location. So they got them. That doesn't surprise me at all actually. I mean, the two in the four player games, how often do you play four players? It just doesn't happen that often. No, it don't happen. But I tell you another thing, we built a six player game. And we called it high-boy. And it went as far as getting screened and actually built one game. And it was a tremendous light box. It was a bug. And what a circuit that was. That was something else. But that as far as it went, one game was built. It's called high-boy. And I always wondered, what happened to that game? Where's that game at today? What year do you think that was? Oh gosh, I don't know. Let's see. I'd say 1960 about. Now some of these other games were real, real popular. Like here's another one, Arabian Nights. Arabian Nights had a selector knob on the front of it where you could determine like how many of the gobble holes would light up. How many holes you had to hit to win? What was the thinking on that game? I have no idea. I can't remember the details on any game. Why I did a certain thing on a certain game? I can't remember that. Was there any other like, you know, some other ones just I wonder if it hit any memories, you know, like green pastures or mystic marble or Hawaiian beauty or Daisy May or Dragonat? Anything any any good memories? Do you ever see flying circus? I've never played that one. No. Do you ever see it? I don't think so. No. Well that game always intrigued. Are you familiar with all of it? Well, you're in it. The five balls trapped in a you shaped area right in the middle of the board and you had to get all five balls on one side to get a free play. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. Yes. Yes. That game always intrigued me. And I tell you another game that I liked that it that was that could have been a better game than it was and that was lightning ball. There were three rubbers I think they were and if you hit them they would light up because the the area would light up under the plastic and you get all three of them lit then you got it it gave you an advance and work and the way it worked off the flipper you take the the right flipper and slip to the left side and with the crane off of the left bumper left rubber onto the center to the right side and then back onto the left flipper and then the left flipper would reverse it to go from the right right rubber to the center to the left to the back onto the the right flipper and I had it by original game was made with that line marking the path of that ball was a red line about a half inch into the am or a half inch wide maybe three eighths of an inch wide but quite a wide red line going from the right flipper to the left rubber to the center to the right rubber to the left flipper and then it was so pronounced that line that you could you could get good at that thing and you could hit that ball back and forth constantly well from I don't know I'd identify oh maybe ten twelve times without missing and I know the players could have done that and got a kick out of it got a real thrill out of it but in the artwork the the the the artist put in a parker put in a lightning strike in that path lightning strike and it was all all colors yellow red and blue and all kinds of colors and you know it lost it lost something I told them at the time I said you know that you've got to put a solid line in there and oh no no no we're not going to do that we're going to this is the way it's going to be in soy and I was okay but you're missing you're missing the point of the game and uh that that game could have been better game than it was but I still like lightning ball so as a as a game yeah it is a very good game it came out in 1959 uh it is you know it's a single player great great game it really is and I know the shot that you speak of too what do you remember about guys and dolls well you know it has that funky flipper post arrangement yeah yeah well I know we're trying to just trying to do something a little different you know I fool around one day came up for that idea and and uh unfortunately uh uh the uh we had a lot of trouble with those posts breaking off and uh and we found out that the plastic company used the wrong material on us when we when we were at the 80 order and so we we had quite a bit quite a few problems with that game so that was did you never try it again because of the plastic issue well we we didn't realize it first what happened you know and uh and then we found out that uh that uh they used the wrong material on us and uh when we got into production which was disaster you know so we never went back to it again and that you know I just had a bad bad feeling that's all when you made that game and it was brand new could you push get the ball to go from the you know from the bottom of the play field all the way to the top kind of like it had flippers or something no no you never question okay I was just kind of curious because that and when I played it it would seem that way too oh no you couldn't do that okay just to pop it around a little bit just you know we we tried so many things and some work some didn't work some more mediocre try something and you have no idea what's going to happen to it the one thing that always kind of confused me on like the 50s machines was the the it almost seems that there was two methods of scoring you had like that the 10,000s and the 100,000 points but then you had these single point values you know the one through 60 points what was the purpose of doing this like in in replays were were awarded based on both point systems what was the purpose of having like these two parallel point systems well just to give me uh ever just another way of uh of putting a feature in the game you know like uh it was a double bill was it was it was too high scores oh right right yes yes it's right it's like um like the two different colors at two different scores the red score and yellow score and you know like that game I uh I was uh thinking of uh making it a four ball game at the time and uh of course you know you had your five ball and your three ball that I was going to make a four ball game and have like a two player game you uh two guys two could play and you you could uh you say you were the red player you you tried to not hit the yellow and you know it's to give the yellow score and you're to hit your try to hit your score but uh you know a lot of things don't work out but that was the option to do that game now in 1963 with sweethearts that was the last game to use gobble holes why did you abandon gobble holes at that at that point of time because you they've been around like got at least eight years or something you know you had to keep changing you had you know you couldn't do the same thing all the time so you had to you had to try something different uh you know it wasn't a plan nothing was ever planned you you just did it because uh you had to do something and uh you had to do something different and uh you tried to uh make a game that looked different played different to uh you know bring a little life back into the game but um did players uh complain about the the gobble holes at all well yeah i think they did it first but you know uh was uh was uh queen of hearts uh that that game was such that nobody ever complained about the gobble holes there and some games they did if there wasn't enough meaning to them and and i think uh i think that had as as a big uh uh that really determined it would serve um i mean this transition from when you had the trap holes to the gobble holes was this just two separate ideas that had nothing to do with each other or was there nothing to do with each other nothing at all okay i was just wondering because you know they're kind of a similar idea where the ball gets you know trapped or whatever but you know you know if there was some sort of transitionary idea we have the other one you uh what fell through i don't know just just trying different things right so all you're doing just trying to make something different now tell me about this thing where you know like in 1954 you do dragonat and then you know five months later you do four bells and they're essentially the exact same game but with different artwork what was the thinking behind and you did that a couple different times you know i guess if maybe if a game was popular or something what was the thinking there well you know sometimes we uh we needed a game in a hurry if if for some reason we needed one we sometimes we we copied a lot of things you know as we went along and a lot of features on boards and things were were copied and changed the rod just a little bit maybe you didn't recognize them all the time but but you know you had to take shortcuts to uh to be able to design so many games of my year that i had a design uh you know i was making some some years maybe 14 15 games in a year and you know that uh you had to take shortcuts and in particular making four player games i always cobbled things up pretty much so i take a uh back of a back insert from one game and i'll put it in the in the cabinet and then i'd plug into it and solder into it and the wires running all around you know to to make it work and uh sometimes i start from scratch and make to the whole thing circuit and everything you know sometimes i have the cobble every everything you played it by your as it was called for at the moment business was slow and and you know there for a while uh back uh well i'd say before i was designing and heritage then we we kept uh we we pulled a game and then we set the fact shut the factory down they'd be down for two or three days or a week and sometimes we went on a three-day week because uh you know there was no business so uh what we tried to do was to keep the factory going keeping

_(Acquisition: whisper_import, Enrichment: v1)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 1b13193e-824b-4a0b-9f58-a8f38cf3cd6f*