# Episode 62 - Fan Layouts

**Source:** Wedgehead Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2024-12-23  
**Duration:** 42m 49s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** Buzzsprout-16256689

---

## Analysis

Alan and Alex from the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast discuss the definition, history, and cultural significance of 'fan layouts' in pinball design. They explore what makes a fan layout, trace its origins to games like Terminator 2, highlight designers associated with the style (Steve Ritchie, George Gomez, John Borg, Brian Eddy), and examine why the term has become both descriptive and pejorative in online pinball communities. The hosts argue that fan layouts, despite online dismissal, form the backbone of modern pinball and are genuinely fun to play, while acknowledging the community's tendency to use the term reductively to dismiss new games.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Steve Ritchie's Terminator 2 (1991) is the first universally acknowledged fan layout that inspired copycats — _Alan states this directly as established fact; Terminator 2 is positioned as the reference point for the design archetype_
- [HIGH] Fan layouts became the backbone of modern pinball design and represent the transition point where pinball started feeling 'modern' — _Both hosts agree on this as a core insight about design evolution from System 11 era to modern games_
- [HIGH] The term 'fan layout' is used dismissively on Pinside and other forums by home collectors to reject new games they won't buy — _Alan recalls this from his experience joining Pinside around 2008-2010, noting 'constant dismissive refrain' from frequent posters_
- [HIGH] Many highly regarded, sought-after, and popular games from the 90s and early Stern era are straightforward fan layouts — _Hosts cite Attack from Mars, Medieval Madness, Lord of the Rings, Terminator 2, Monster Bash, Metallica as examples_
- [MEDIUM] A true fan layout requires an orbit that goes all the way around the playfield — _Alan brings this up as a definition criterion; Alex agrees and uses it to explain why John Wick doesn't feel like a fan despite being two-flipper_
- [HIGH] George Gomez does 'straightforward fan' layouts and 'does good shit with it' — _Both hosts cite Gomez's Lord of the Rings, Batman 66, and 007 as examples of well-executed fan layouts_
- [HIGH] Steve Ritchie invented the fan layout, and even his non-fan games get called fans by the online community — _Hosts note that games like Star Trek, Spider-Man with upper flippers get dismissed as fans simply because they're Ritchie designs_
- [MEDIUM] Games like Deadpool and Ghostbusters are contested—Alex says Ghostbusters is 'not a fan,' Alan says both are fans — _Direct disagreement between hosts illustrates the definitional ambiguity; no resolution reached_

### Notable Quotes

> "The fan layout is kind of the backbone of modern pinball. That is what. When they became fans, that's when people start. That's why we discuss how like you have solid states and EMs and then the later solid states, the System 11, and we're like, they're not quite like the 90s games yet."
> — **Alan**, ~early-mid discussion
> _Core thesis: fan layouts represent the design inflection point that modernized pinball_

> "It's just a way for people to immediately dismiss a new game on an online forum dominated by home collectors a game that they're not gonna buy and are maybe salty about so they just go, it actually probably sucks because it's just a fan layout and we've seen it a million times."
> — **Alex**, ~mid discussion
> _Cynical but insightful observation about the social/tribal function of 'fan layout' criticism_

> "If you're aiming for a lane and you miss it instead of hitting like a bank of drops that's gonna fuck you like you would on a classic game or something you're now gonna hit another lane that's probably another safe feed. They're beginner friendly in that regard and they make you feel better than you are."
> — **Alex**, ~mid-late discussion
> _Articulates the appeal of fan layouts: forgiving, safe, accessible design philosophy_

> "What isn't a fan? I mean because that's that's I think why it's funny to me is because it's like there's so many ways and it's like what everybody kind of defines their own like what makes a fan layout a fan layout but by like the loosest definitions almost every game starts fitting."
> — **Alex**, ~early-mid discussion
> _Captures the absurdity of the fan layout debate: term has become so elastic it's nearly meaningless_

> "Yeah. It's just a way for people to immediately dismiss a new game on an online forum dominated by home collectors."
> — **Alex**, ~mid discussion
> _Direct critique of the social dynamics driving 'fan layout' criticism_

> "When Bond, like Gomez's most recent 007 or whatever came out people are like just kind of a straightforward fan and you're like, what. You're like it's got like three upper flipper shots. It's got like a bank of targets in the middle."
> — **Alan**, ~mid discussion
> _Illustrates how the term is applied indiscriminately even to games that don't fit the definition_

> "There's a severe lack of modern games that don't just hand the ball back to the flipper every time you make a shot."
> — **Alex**, ~late discussion
> _Notes that safe ball returns (a fan layout legacy) have become the modern standard expectation_

> "People will be like Spider-Man or Star Trek or those games and they're like well these are fans and you're like no they have upper flippers dude."
> — **Alan**, ~mid discussion
> _Example of how the term 'fan layout' is applied to non-qualifying games simply because of designer reputation_

> "I fucking hated him when I first got into it because he makes challenging games. The Munsters just kicked the shit out of me, but now I love that game."
> — **Alex**, ~late discussion
> _Personal anecdote showing how initial dismissal of Borg's games evolved into appreciation_

> "Jesus Christ, that's not a fan. Why not? The Scoleri Brothers. It's just too much goofy shit, man."
> — **Alex (re: Ghostbusters)**, ~end discussion
> _Illustrates the subjective, emotional nature of fan layout classification_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Steve Ritchie | person | Legendary designer credited with inventing the fan layout concept via Terminator 2 (1991); associated with wide orbits and flow-based design; gets blamed for fan layouts even when designing non-fan games |
| George Gomez | person | Chief designer at Stern; cited as one of four designers most associated with fan layouts (Mount Rushmore); designed Lord of the Rings, Monster Bash, Batman 66, 007—all straightforward fans that are highly regarded |
| John Borg | person | Stern designer known for phenomenal modern games (Metallica, Munsters, Iron Man); gets criticized online for visual similarity in layouts despite playing differently; Alex initially hated his games but came to love them |
| Brian Eddy | person | Designer known for fan layouts including Attack from Mars, Medieval Madness, Stranger Things, Mando; represents the archetype of designer with multiple fan layout games |
| Alan | person | Co-host of Wedgehead Pinball Podcast; joined Pinside around 2008; recalls the era when 'fan layout' was used as constant dismissive refrain by frequent posters |
| Alex | person | Co-host of Wedgehead Pinball Podcast; 'the water boy'; provides critical perspective on fan layout definitions and online discourse; disagrees with Alan on several borderline cases |
| Terminator 2 | game | 1991 Steve Ritchie design; first universally acknowledged fan layout; massive seller with wide orbits and ramp on each side; influenced copycats and established the template |
| Attack from Mars | game | Brian Eddy design; cited as 'all-time fan layout pretty good game'; confirmed classic fan; plays very differently from Medieval Madness despite similar layout |
| Medieval Madness | game | Brian Eddy design; often compared to Attack from Mars; has shooting bad guy shot that distinguishes its feel; part of the hall of fame fan layouts |
| Lord of the Rings | game | George Gomez design; cited as a straightforward fan layout and 'most loved early Sterns'; highly regarded despite or because of fan layout design |
| Monster Bash | game | George Gomez design; fan layout with interrupted orbits (Wolfman mode); Alan notes it never felt 'fanny' to him despite being a fan |
| Deadpool | game | Gomez design; contested fan/not-fan status; Alan says it's a fan, Alex says no due to goofy ball paths and center stand-ups; illustrates definitional ambiguity |
| Ghostbusters | game | Alex strongly rejects fan layout classification due to Scoleri Brothers mechanic and goofy ramp; Alan disagrees; ongoing disagreement at episode end |
| Metallica | game | John Borg design; cited as confirmed classic fan layout; plays differently from other Borg games despite visual similarity |
| Batman 66 | game | George Gomez design; straightforward fan layout; highly regarded |
| 007 (James Bond) | game | Gomez's most recent design; disputed classification—Alan argues it's NOT a true fan (three upper flipper shots, center target bank, asymmetrical); online crowd calls it a fan anyway |
| John Wick | game | Two-flipper game with orbit, but orbit doesn't go all the way around; Alex uses it to illustrate why missing the complete orbit makes a game not feel like a traditional fan |
| Pinside | organization | Online pinball community forum; dominated by home collectors; historically the epicenter of 'fan layout' dismissive discourse; hosts lengthy arguments about game classification |
| Wedgehead Pinball Podcast | organization | Podcast hosted by Alan and Alex; covers pinball design, industry, and community dynamics; recently launched Ko-Fi fundraiser |
| Theater of Magic | game | John Popadiuk design; described as 'probably John Popadiuk's most conventional layout'; confirmed classic fan |
| Cactus Canyon | game | Straightforward fan layout; has shooting bad guy shot feature that affects ball flow; feels different than other fans with center targets due to stop-and-go mechanic |
| Venom | game | Brian Eddy design; described as 'pretty straightforward fan' but plays differently than Stranger Things and Mando |
| AC/DC | game | Cited as a confirmed classic fan layout |
| Scared Stiff (Elvira) | game | Cited as a confirmed classic fan layout |
| House of Horrors (Elvira) | game | Cited as a confirmed classic fan layout |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Fan layout definition and characteristics, History of fan layouts in pinball design, Online community discourse and dismissal of fan layouts, Designer association with fan layouts (Ritchie, Gomez, Borg, Eddy)
- **Secondary:** Accessibility and player-friendliness of fan layouts, Disputed classifications of borderline games (Deadpool, Ghostbusters, 007), Aesthetic vs. functional definitions of fan layouts
- **Mentioned:** Wedgehead Podcast Ko-Fi fundraiser announcement

### Sentiment

**Mixed** (0.55) — Hosts are affectionate and defensive about fan layouts, clearly irritated by online dismissal, but also amused by the absurdity of the debate. They appreciate well-designed fans while critiquing the reductive use of the term. The tone shifts between analytical (defining characteristics), comedic (poking fun at Pinside culture), and slightly exasperated (disagreements over classification).

### Signals

- **[design_philosophy]** Steve Ritchie's Terminator 2 (1991) established the fan layout template with wide orbits and ramp-to-flipper returns; inspired widespread adoption and copycats (confidence: high) — Alan: 'the first universally acknowledged fan and this is the game that I associate it with is Steve Ritchie's Terminator 2, 1991. And just like he always did, he inspired a lot of copycats afterwards who did variations on the wide orbits.'
- **[design_philosophy]** Fan layouts prioritize safe ball returns to flippers after made shots, making games beginner-friendly and forgiving; this became the modern standard design principle (confidence: high) — Alex: 'If you're aiming for a lane and you miss it instead of hitting like a bank of drops... you're now gonna hit another lane that's probably another safe feed. They're beginner friendly in that regard.'
- **[community_signal]** Home collector-dominated online forums (Pinside) use 'fan layout' as a reductive dismissal term for new games; originated as constant refrain circa 2008-2010 (confidence: high) — Alan: 'I remember when I first got into the hobby around like 2008 and then a couple years later I got on Pinside and it was just a constant dismissive refrain from like all the most frequent posters like every game being made was just another cookie cutter fan layout.'
- **[community_signal]** Online criticism of fan layouts functions as tribal dismissal mechanism; critics won't purchase the games, may be 'salty,' and use the term to preemptively reject new releases (confidence: high) — Alex: 'It's just a way for people to immediately dismiss a new game on an online forum dominated by home collectors a game that they're not gonna buy and are maybe salty about.'
- **[design_innovation]** Complete orbits wrapping around the playfield are a key visual and mechanical element that contributes to a game 'feeling' like a traditional fan; missing orbits or partial orbits break the fan aesthetic (confidence: medium) — Alan: 'I never really thought about it as part of the definition... that might be like the single... it's that's why like John Wick, it has an orbit. But the orbit starts in the middle of the shots or ends in the middle of the shots... I don't have the big ring around the whole thing.'
- **[gameplay_signal]** Fan layouts provide forgiving ball flow where missed shots often land in adjacent safe feeds; creates a kinetically pleasing, 'sloppy' play experience that feels accessible to casual players (confidence: high) — Alex: 'They're kinetically pleasing because if you're aiming for one shot and you're late or you're early you usually hit the shot right next to it so you kind of like yeah it kind of just works.'
- **[sentiment_shift]** The term 'fan layout' has become so broadly and inconsistently applied that it now encompasses most two-flipper modern games; definitional boundaries have collapsed (confidence: high) — Alex: 'by like the loosest definitions almost every game starts fitting... what's the point?' and Alan: 'People just use it to describe any two-flipper game they don't like lately.'
- **[product_concern]** Online collectors perceive proliferation of fan layout games as cookie-cutter, derivative, and boring; dismiss new releases as copies of established designs despite different play feel (confidence: high) — Alan: 'Their ubiquity started to be seen by, you know, some pinball nerds as being basic, cookie cutter, derivative... it was just a constant dismissive refrain from like all the most frequent posters like every game being made was just another cookie cutter fan layout.'
- **[industry_signal]** Steve Ritchie games get blanket labeled as 'fan layouts' by online critics regardless of actual design; creator reputation overwrites structural analysis (confidence: high) — Alan: 'Everything's a fan... if it's a Steve game it's a fan layout to like the Pinside crowd... people will be like Spider-Man or Star Trek or those games and they're like well these are fans and you're like no they have upper flippers.'
- **[design_innovation]** Fan layouts represent the design inflection point that transitioned pinball from System 11 era to modern sensibilities; became the architectural foundation of contemporary machine design (confidence: high) — Alan: 'The fan layout is kind of the backbone of modern pinball... The fan layout is what... starts like feeling like that... okay, this is now, it actually shoots like a modern pin. It was kind of like the transition point for the layout.'
- **[gameplay_signal]** Despite similar fan layout structure, games play substantially differently based on mode sequencing, ball physics, specific shot implementation, and rule design; 'fan layout' classification obscures meaningful mechanical variation (confidence: high) — Alex: 'if you've played a variety of like the games... you know how different they can be from title to title... They play like a Gomez game like a Lord of the Rings plays substantially different than like an Attack from Mars which plays substantially different than like No Fear.'

---

## Transcript

 Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. I am Alan, your host of this podcast, joined by my co-host in the basement studio of his house. It's Alex, the water boy. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Doing really good. You know, it's been, we're getting through the Christmas season here at the time of recording. and it's been busy but good. It's been busy but good. Yeah. Meanwhile, we're busy with our new coffee fundraiser. So if you haven't heard yet, the last couple episodes, we started a website page on coffee.com, ko-fi-wedgeheadpodcast. And if any one of you want to help us on our journey to Pentastic in 2025, appreciate the show. For the price of a cup of coffee, you can support us one time or set up a recurring donation. There's a link in the show notes. But enough with that. Yeah. What's our topic today, Alex? Today's topic is something near and dear to both of our hearts. It's fan layouts. Fan layouts are often referenced by folks on the internet in places like Pinside or the Pinball subreddit. Angry other Pinball podcasters. In modern times, it's sort of taken on a pejorative meaning as well. Amongst many Pinball super dorks. Of course, talking about the infamous fan layout. I kind of spoiled that intro. My bad. People already saw the title of the episode by the time they're listening to this. That's true. But we're going to attempt to define what a fan layout is because it's a little bit controversial on even what a fan layout is. We'll see a lot of people just kind of argue about it. We'll talk about the history of it, what games and designers are most associated with it, and why some people get all up in arms over them. People get real heated about these fans. They don't want to see no more goddamn fan layouts. Yeah, let's start with the definition here. Definition of a family. I'm not going to look at your notes. I'm going to just do this off direct eye contact. It's got the two flippers at the bottom, as most pinball machines in the modern era do. And then the shots are all just direct straight lines from those flippers. Yes. And it ranged in, you know, a fanning. It's the shots all fan out from the flippers. So if anyone's listening, the fanniest layout I can think of would be... Steve Ritchie, we'll get into it in a bit, but a lot of his... If you think of his popular two-flipper games, those are almost all fans. A Black Knight or a Game of Thrones or... That's Black Knight. Sword of Rage Pro, I'm thinking specifically. Yeah, there you go. Sword of Rage Pro. Yeah. The definitives. What people agree on. Because people disagree, like I said at the top of the episode. but it's definitely two flippers at the bottom of the playfield in the standard arrangement, like what you think of as a pinball machine. The shots are radially fanned across the playfield from left to right. There's no upper flipper or cross flipper shots that can't be hit from the lower playfield. So if you have an upper flipper with like a loop or a ramp that can only be hit by that, that automatically makes it not a fan because it, you know, you can't draw straight lines from the bottom two flippers. You have ramp shots that return the balls to the inlanes. And they're typically very flowy games where the shots string together and feed each other. Yeah. And that's sort of like a basic fan. Yeah, because it's like a lot of classic EMS and stuff would meet a lot of those definitions where you're like, oh, well, all the shots are just straight. I mean, especially once you get into symmetrical EMS and early solid states, there are a lot of just straight shots from the flippers. but when they don't feed back to something safe, like when it's not a ramp return or an orbit or just something like that, it does not have that fan feel. So you're kind of like, I don't, it's hard to hard to define that bit, but that is a part of it. It's a, it has to be kind of like a fast and flowy return. And now we get into like the controversial kind of stipulations. These are what people argue about. Like these are things that most people associate with a fan layout or what makes it a fan layout, but they're not unanimous. Okay. So a lot of people say all shots have to be medium distance or far away from the flippers. Similar entry points. Yeah. Like, so the shots are like, there's not a variety of like close in medium and far shots. They're all kind of far or they're all kind of medium far away. And there's a lot of empty play field in the middle of the play field. Yeah. So a lot of people will be like, it has to have that or it's not a true fan. You know, so the no close in shots, no shots of varying depths. Right. You don't want all the distance. There's some games that we're going to bring up later that people will go, well, that's not a fan because there's the shot that's right on the edge of the flipper, right at the edge, and that's close in. So, like, that's not a fan. But, you know, otherwise you would look at it and go, that's a fan. That's going to be kind of a recurring thing, I assume, in this episode where it's like arguing over what's a fan or not. People just use it to describe any two-flipper game they don't like lately. It feels like we're like, oh, that's just a fan layout when they see something like a John Wick or something. And you're like, well, that's a fan. And you're like, what kind of fucking fan looks like that? It probably is a fan. It is. Everything's a fan. It only has two flippers. Yeah. All the shots going to be, you know. Yeah. You have to be able to shoot the shot. You're like, that does not feel like because they're at different spots. There's weird kind of shit going on. You got kind of goofy feeds. It's just that doesn't feel like what a fan is to me. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, we'll get to that. But my definition very much is. So, yeah. I've also heard that there's the lower playfields devoid of any dangerous or randomizing features. So, things like the magnets in Adam's family, even though that's an upper flipper, so that wouldn't be a fan anyway. But also, like, anything that, like, is sort of makes the ball chaotic doesn't feed cleanly to flipper returns. Yeah. Like, people associate it with it's the two flippers at the bottom. Shots are in a straight line left to right. And when you hit shots, they come right back to your flipper and they hit another shot. And I also heard that there needs to be an orbit to be a true fan, an orbit that goes all the way around the play field. See, I never really thought about that as part of the definition. And to me, that might be like the single like it's that's why like John Wick, it has an orbit. But the orbit starts in the middle of the shots or ends in the middle of the shots. Right. And that might be why it feels like it's a disjointed fan because it doesn't have the big ring around the whole thing. It does have three flippers and the one VUK on the right side that kind of feeds to your lanes. And it does have the orbits that kind of feed around. Am I blanking on third? There's not a third flipper on WEC. Third ramp. Oh, third ramp. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. Third ramp. The last thing is a controversial stipulation is no close in kind of center bank of targets. They all have to be like lane shots, like shots through a lane. So either an orbit or ramp through a spinner into a VUK or something. Yep. that there's not just like a target bank of either drops or stand-ups. Because there are some games where you're like, oh, this would be a fan, and they go, not so fast. Yeah, like playing like Firepower. Yeah, or like Taxi. People say Taxi a lot. They're like, is that a fan? And you're like, why wouldn't it be a fan? They're like, well, the target's in the center. No orbit. See, that's the kind of shit. You're like, that does not feel like one to me. See? So there's stuff. And I'm sure anyone listening probably has their own feelings on it, and that's why it kind of gets to be this argued thing, and you really only use it to insult things when you're you know it's weird that close-minded so many games have been made that could be called fan layouts because they're kind of like the way a modern game has to be laid out the only way to make it any different is to add extra to add a flipper up top and then you get one or two shots up top and then everyone thinks like this is some crazy shit and you're like it could be a straight fan with an upper with an upper flipper and no one will question it and that's what you'll see too later is there's some upper flipper games that people are still like no it's still a fan like even though there's an upper flipper like it that's still a fan so but i think we should talk about the history a little bit like needless to say just like everything with family outs the first one is disputed yeah like i was trying to do research i was looking at old forum posts and i knew how i knew what i thought it was but then i was interested to be like oh these other people are bringing up different games and i saw an old pin side thread where people were arguing about it and i think some people point to bride of pinbot taxi or elvira and the party monsters as like the early fan layouts because they all have two flippers they all have ramp shots that feed flippers shots are spread in a regular fan like intervals interesting i think that some people dismiss taxi because of the center targets like i said and i think some people dismiss bride because it's not flowy i think that would be the only reason because it's like it doesn't got an orbit though it doesn't feel like going back to the orbit is i'm now realizing such a big part of what feels like a fan to me because it gives you an extra two shots either entrance also feeds like right in front to your flippers yep usually the ball will return right in front of the sling lane heavy feel that i associate with this layout but i mean if you look at just like the established like no one will argue tenants of what a fan layout is you know bride for sure taxi elvira yeah they all could be like the original arguable they're all arguable you can make a case but the first universally acknowledged fan and this is the game that i associate it with is Steve Ritchie's terminator 2 1991 and just like he always did he inspired a lot of copycats afterwards who did variations on the wide orbits well when you sell like 20 000 units yeah the other people will take note yeah i mean he didn't sell 20 000 of those but they sold a lot. How many T2s do they sell? I thought there were a shit ton. I don't know off the top of my head, but a lot. I thought it was in the high teens. Yeah. And now I don't know. It's in the mid teens. It feels like they're everywhere. You know, it's got wide orbits, ramp on each side, center bash between the middle. It was a smash hit. And, you know all the other designers at Williams and the other companies started copying it Like it just like stuff goes well and people are like It also cool as hell Yeah it is cool That the thing about these layouts You're like, they're fun. They are fun. They're fun to shoot. They just feel good. The fan layout is kind of the backbone of modern pinball. That is what – when they became fans, that's when people start – that's why we discuss how like you have solid states and EMs and then the later solid states, the System 11. and we're like, they're not quite like the 90s games yet. Yep. They're almost there, but they're not quite there. And I think the fan layout is what... It starts like feeling like that. You're like, okay, this is now, it actually shoots like a modern pen. It was kind of like the transition point for the layout. Yeah. Exploded in popularity through the 90s and into the 2000s and 2010s. Their ubiquity started to be seen by, you know, some pinball nerds as being basic, cookie cutter, derivative. i remember when i first bullshit bullshit bullshit derivative bullshit but i remember when i got into the hobby in like 2008 and then a couple years later i got on pinside and it was just a constant dismissive refrain from like all the most frequent posters like every game being made was just just another cookie cutter fan layout boring like it was just all of that like it was just constant like boring boring lame cookie cutter like alex is laughing but you can like it's true like yeah that's what you still i mean you still run into that people be like oh it's just a basic fan and you're like well fuck guys what isn't what isn't i mean because that's that's i think why it's funny to me is because it's like there's so many ways and there's like what everybody kind of defines their own like what makes a family out a fan layout but by like the loosest definitions almost every game starts fitting or modern game and then you realize how like what a dumb way this is to try to quantify things yeah it's just a way for people to immediately dismiss a new game on an online forum dominated by home collectors a game that they're not gonna buy and are maybe salty about so they just go it actually probably sucks because it's just a fan layout and we've seen it a million times like yeah i mean if you've played a variety of like the games that we're going to be talking about you know how different they can be from title to title and like the implementation it's pinball moving things you know a quarter of an inch makes a huge difference yeah or just the way it's implemented in the game if you have to combo things in a certain mode or you have heard they feel different like you know what i mean like t2 feels different from attack from mars yeah absolutely right even though they're both very similar fan layouts yeah yeah and that's kind of a good a good segue because despite all of like the you know the regulars the long timers in the hobby being mad about fans being recycled garbage or whatever a lot of the very highly regarded well-loved sought after popular games especially from the 90s are just pretty straightforward fans yeah and even like the most loved like kind of early sterns like we're all fans too like lord of the rings right like yeah sopranos like yeah a lot of yeah and once we can get like because it's like gomez liked it straightforward to flipper fan yeah and like he does good shit with it and that's the fun part they play like a gomez game like a lord of the rings plays substantially different than like an attack from mars which plays substantially different than like no fear yeah i was no fear fan oh we'll get to that buddy yeah we'll see we'll get to that buddy that's enough for flipper i mean i guess what we're saying is like fans are undeniably fun to shoot even if they don't vary like if you look at pictures of them and you overlay them because this is something guys on pins i'd love to do man yeah they love to like game looks like that game like this game's that game this game's actually that game yeah like they love whenever a new game comes out and then like trying to post overlays about like they're like if you run if you flip rush and you cut this section of the play field and replace it with a section from tron it's just the same as turtles and you're like i don't fucking care man yeah it's crazy dude but they guys like doing that and i get into i do that too where i'm like oh this is that shot from this game because when you're in the hobby you start recognizing things and it's fun to draw the lines like for our second sunny up reference of the episode the charlie fucking in the mail room with all the strings is how it feels people dissecting these layouts when they come out fans they all they might look the same at a quick glance they play different but almost all of the famous fans that we can think of and that we'll keep naming throughout this episode are very fun to shoot yeah they're kinetically pleasing because if you're aiming for one shot and you're late or you're early you usually hit the shot right next to it so you kind of like yeah it kind of just works and you're kind of work like slops it out for you yeah it's kind of nice it's like you're not gonna like if you're aiming for a lane and you miss it instead of hitting like a bank of drops that's gonna fuck you like you would on a classic game or something you're now gonna hit another lane that's probably another safe feed yeah so you're like they're beginner friendly in that regard and they make you feel better than you are because a lot of the time you just kind of hit the flipper when it feels right on the you know you hit the button when it feels right you're aiming for the ramp and you hit the orb instead well oh well like nobody has to know yeah just don't call your shots it's not a problem exactly but like the games end up becoming safer you know because of the fan layouts there's an emphasis on made shots returning safely and this still exists in the modern day even when you have the three or four flipper games that come out sometimes the fundamentals of like like made shots need to feed safely back to your flippers that was like the fans that's what they did yeah that's how they change pinball and we talk about on the show sometimes we're always a mistake alex is like i hate stuff that returns to the flippers there's a severe lack of there's a severe lack of modern games that don't just hand the ball back to the flipper every time you make a shot it's very very rare to see shots on a modern pin that don't deliver the ball back safely or at least super important shots that you have to bash around and you know can drain you because of it but uh yeah i mean i think players oftenly like we just said like people love to just dismiss these games as family house because they don't like them yeah and they love dismissing steve the kings games more than anybody because he kind of arguably invented this as he arguably invented everything in pinball even the games that don't fit into like the common definitions of if it's a steve game it's a fan like everybody's like oh star trek fan layout and you're like what it's got multiple shots that you're making off an upper flipper like yeah the shots are at different entry points there's all kinds of arguments to be made that this isn't a straightforward fan but it's a steve game so it's a fan layout to like the pin side crowd yeah like people will be like spider-man or star trek or those games and they're like well these are fans and you're like no they have upper flippers dude you have to hate those upper flipper loops you're like this doesn't yeah you're like what isn't a fan and that's i think what drives me nuts is once people start like nitpicking you're like ah just another basic fan and you're like what the fuck isn't a fan by your definition then yeah like because like it's like when bond like gomez's most recent 007 or whatever came out people are like just kind of a straightforward fan and you're like what you're like it's got like three upper flipper shots it's got like a bank of targets in the middle it's got like all this goofy shit kind of going on that's not conventional and not a fan layout and it's not symmetrical like you're like it's a fan and you're like all the ramps are on the right side that has the one ramp that has the two entrances right like yeah but the other ramp is an orbit it's just some people look at it and it's like visually i think a big problem with a lot of like the a lot of the games that kind of are like well that's just real straightforward their art leans into it. Like they have the shot lines and Steve Ritchie kind of, like they used those lines on his shots, on his games a lot. Yeah, totally. To highlight the shots. And so when you're standing in front of a No Fear, you're like, well, of course this is a fan because I'm looking at a fucking fan drawn on the play field. Like there's like line, line, line, line, each going to a lane. So it makes sense. We're going to talk about No Fear in a second, but I do want to give some shout outs because I think people were thinking about like what's a fan or whatever. I have some confirmed like absolute bangers of like what fans are first of all we'll start with the designers that are like kind of almost every modern designer has at least one fan layout like confirmed fan layout in their arsenal some people do it a lot more or are well regarded for it I would say Steve Ritchie he invented it and even his non-fans people just call fans like because like yeah man because he's done some fans but he's done a lot of games that are definitely not fan layouts but he gets just like called out all the time like fan layout fan layout fan layout i'd say Brian Eddy because he did attack from mars medieval madness yep and now he's done stranger things he's done mando right like but mando even has that like little upper flipper thing in the special so that's not technically a fan right like yeah i mean venom would be a fan but yep venom's a pretty straightforward fan to me but it's like it plays so different than like those than Stranger Things or Mando that I'm always just like, well, what's it even fucking matter? And that's like when you start defining a lot of this stuff, it's like, what's the point? I don't know. Well, just to insult things. I want to I think the point to do in this episode in particular is one is fun to talk about pinball and different games and different design philosophies. But it's also like it's going to be something that you're going to run into when you're in the hobby long enough is you're going to hear of you like, oh, this game looks cool. Hey, there's new games coming out with this theme I like. And then you're going to get online and someone's going to show you pictures and go, it looks like this other game. It's a fucking fan layout. I can't believe Stern's still making fan layouts or whatever. Right. Yeah. And you're like, what does that even mean? Give us something different. And we do love seeing different shit. We were both very excited for like X-Men was like the weirdest layout that we've seen in a long time. Sure. And that's not a fan layout. It's not. Well. It's not. You sure that's not? Yeah. It's got to be. You know, it's a fan from if you ignore the little danger room. It's the two little flippers. see it because it's the little flipper the little flipper changes it because you can't hit those shots without that other extra what is the danger room except for a two-lane fan as far as other the double family out the mount yeah it's a double fan it's even fannier dude we didn't realize but the other to round out our mount rushmore steve brian george uh or george Gomez George Gomez yep John Borg John Borg yeah who's one that gets blamed for for whatever reason Borg who makes phenomenal games some of my absolute favorite of like the modern era he also gets a lot of heat from the usual crowd online for having like all this shots this is similar to this and this is similar to this And they may be visually similar but again all these games play different I love them all. I'd put a Metallica right next to a Munsters, right next to an Iron Man. You can tell me they're the same. They don't play the same. They don't play the same. I love John Borg. I love John Borg games. I've always loved John Borg games. I think he makes... I fucking hated him when I first got into it because he makes challenging games. The Munsters just kicked the shit out of me. but now i love that game i really came around on that over the course of like the first six months in the hobby or whatever and i was like actually monsters is kind of sick kind of rips kind of rips yeah like his games are fun but yeah i think we should talk about some of like the hall of fame like nobody's going to argue that these are fans and then we're going to talk about some games that are questionable and we'll give our takes on them but attack from mars all-time fan fan fan fan layout pretty good game some people like that one medieval madness some would say the same game right like same game part two but again that's another one where you're like so different it's the same designer same manufacturer man attack from mars and medieval madness feel different to play very different like it's not just the theme like it like they feel different you know what i'm saying like so this is what we're talking about like just because it's a fan doesn't mean it's bad yeah shifting staying in bally williams with shifting designers we got monster bash from uh mr gomez and that's like another one that it's like the first time someone was like yeah it's just a basic fan layout and like this when i was very new to the hobby and i'm like is it like i never really like thought about this kind of shit and i'm like oh yeah i guess it is and that one has never felt fanny to me in part of that might be because the orbits interrupted unless you're in the wolfman mode it always has that post doesn't oh yeah let's go all the way around and i think the orbit for me i never really thought about it until you said it in this episode and that's why i just keep coming back to it that's a huge piece of something feeling like a traditional fan for me see this is what we mean is like everyone interacts with it differently like what is a fan to them or whatever but uh you know like lord of the rings like we mentioned also another george gomez game yep batman 66 another george gomez game another fan layout just a fan just another fan cactus canyon yeah that one's pretty pretty straightforward but it also feels different it's kind of like medieval because it has that the shooting the bad guy shot or whatever where it like takes the ball away from you yeah and so that feels to me very different than like even when you have like a board fan with the center or something it's like well the ball's coming back at you pretty fast yeah where it's like like on Medieval or Cactus, you're like, well, now the ball is kind of like going somewhere else and it's going back to a safe feed. And the stop and go makes them feel like less of what I associate. Less of a fan. Yeah. Yeah, like the more the ball stops, less. You also have games like Metallica, Terminator 2, both of the Elvira Scared Stiff and House of Horrors, ACDC, Theater of Magic. Yeah. Theater of Magic is kind of a weird fan. But that one's like definitely, it's like, yeah, As far as it's probably John Papadiuk's most conventional layout. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And you're like, it shoots good. Yeah. Probably shoots better than the rest of his games. Those are like classically defined fans. I don't think you're going to find people are going to be like, those games aren't fans, dude. Those are like the ones that are confirmed fan layouts. You're like, this is the example of how to do it. Now we have some modified fans. These are some games that people argue about. This is where stuff gets funny to me because you started the first one you have on the list here is Deadpool. And that's one that I remember because it's fairly new. When I got into the hobby, people were like dismissing it. It's like, well, it's just like he's just tricking you. It's the shot might look like it's doing this stuff, but it's really just a fan. And you're like, what do you need to do? That was the one where I realized there's nothing you can do to convince people or some people that a two flipper game isn't a fan. I was like, they're going to say everything is. So do you think Deadpool is a fan or not a fan? No, that doesn't count as a fan to me. Really? Why not? Because it's got goofy ball, goofy ball paths. It's got like the standups in the middle. It's got, I don't know. It's just, it's hard to feel. It just doesn't feel like a fan. And I think it's just because of those, like you're not really slopping into shots on Deadpool very often. It's possible. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. I would say I think Deadpool's a fan. I'm one of those people. Like, this is a fan. Like, if we're defining it, to me, it's a fan. The only shot that feels different is the katana shot, but the entrance to it is in a fan layout shape. So to me, it's like, and then some people will go, well, the Deadpool targets are kind of too close in, and that sort of takes up central real estate. So that breaks up the fan. And I go, not to me. It feels like kind of a fan layout to me. That doesn't make it bad. It just means, like, that feels like a fan layout to me. Part of like there's that center spinner and the scoop are kind of like set. Both of those are set back further. If those were somehow brought forward, like if the scoop was right brought up next right directly to the right of that left ramp in the center spinner was like that was it right there. And like you couldn't somehow fuck up that shot. If you hit right there, then I would feel different. But it's like it just feels too disjointed to me. And there's that shot around the scoop. Yeah. I mean, this is why people argue it. The next one is Ghostbusters. What do you think about Ghostbusters? Jesus Christ, that's not a fan. Why not? The Scolari Brothers. It's just too much goofy shit, man. I'm not having any of it. I'm not having it. You can't convince me Ghostbusters is a fan. You don't think it doesn't? I refuse to acknowledge it. It's got orbits. It's preposterous. It's got the ramp feeds. It's got that goofy fucking ramp on the right on the pro that kind of goes up and then it bounces off a gate and then flops down. That's not fan shit. That's not a fan. I'm not having it. what do you got next on here what's next well i would say like i think ghostbusters is a fan also no see this is how this is how all online pinball discourse happens it's just people going because i go two flippers shots are hittable from either of those flippers about making up rules is that there's no actual firm definition i'd like to me it's like that's a clear fan i think it's a very interesting fan i think i think deadpool was an interesting fan too because they're i would still classify them as fans alex would not the next one walking dead what do you think about not a fan see not a fan it's just too all over the place all the entries are at like different points it's got that feed in the middle of the left of the barn that goes into the pops just you know that's not fan that's not a fan to me i'm not nope nope nope not buying it no the right ramp is too low it's right above the slingshot yeah it's got that little feed into the into the inlet of the shooter lane this has got too much goofy shit that's my so if it has goofy shit it's not a fan that's the water boy yes that's the water boy i'll stand by that oh you know you know what i'm gonna say to the next one what do you think about the next one this tales of the arabian nights extraordinary amount of goofy shit on this game some non-fan you can't have a fucking little spinning toto or spinning uh the genie bottle thing you can't have that and call it a fan i'm nope next you think that one's a fan yeah you got like captive balls you got like little ball pass sneaking behind shit you got like all this oh man i'm one of those people that's like i kind of hate when people dismiss fans and then you have these games and then people just go nope it's different somehow and i go it's not though it's the same i don't think fans are bad at all and some of my favorite games are fans but yeah these mine too i think it's an insult to sword of rage pro to compare it to the tales of arabian nights because it only has one ramp and it's super swirly is that it's lame you gotta have two ramps to be a fan dude it takes too long well sword of rage pro only really has one ramp that's true yeah but i'm not no one can argue that sort of rage pro isn't a fan hey that orbit stops sometimes too that orbit also isn't from far left to far right now that i say that but it feels pretty far left to far right but that's a fan is it it's a fan with like a little extra toe sticking off on the left i would say sort of right sort of rage pro is is a fan is as fan as it could yeah That's why I think that's the example. Okay. Fan. Fan. From the not fan fucking number one designer, pin side, you know, sweetheart, Jaws. What do you think about Jaws, Alan? Fan. Fucking fan. That feels very fan. And that has an extra flipper that does almost nothing. Yeah. One and a half inch flippers don't really count. And it almost just holds the ball during multiball most of the time. Yeah. and it shoots a 90 degree path over to the side of the cabinet in a very unsatisfying manner. I don't mind how Jaws shoots, but the little flipper is such a, it's an odd one. I think that this is like, again, technically because it has a third flipper, by technical definitions, you'd be like automatically, well, this isn't a fan, I guess. For the record, we're talking Jaws Pro. Jaws Pro, yep. Premium, once you get two one and a half inch flippers, now no longer fan territory. Well, if you have an upper or lower play field, it's hard to call it a fan. It is, unless it's like a fan and a little baby fan. Fanception, like Munster's Premium. Well, yeah, dude. Fanception. Are you going to argue Munster's Premium isn't a fan just because it has a smaller fan? No, it's fanception. Yeah, much like X-Men. It's just everything is a fan. When you get a flipper up from the top and you have three shots coming off of that upper flipper, what are three shots next to each other? A fan. That's the thing. That's why I think this is so dumb is because it's like everything is a fan. You're just overlaying because it's like, yeah, it's pinball. The ball just leaves the flipper and it can only go in a straight line, man. You know, like you can't do anything else. Okay. Yeah. Next one. Another another from Keith is Godzilla. What do you think about this one? I mean, if we're calling this a fan, what the fuck is in? You know, this is just an upper flipper. So I think it's like fundamentally, I would say it's it's not a fan. The upper flipper, I guess you can get that. You get the tail whips off of it. But I was like it really only has one main shot too which is an interesting distinction because we get to my favorite coming up soon and if you own godzilla so what do you think feels pretty fanny to me for some reason it's like the the ball paths and stuff do feel make it feel like back to your flippers it has kind of that center entry orbit or whatever but if well it's not even an orbit because you can't shoot that backwards because then it goes to the u-turn ramp or whatever the left building ramp but it's like so it doesn't meet a lot of the definitions of a fan but that one for whatever reason does feel kind of fanny to me and it might be because like the left spinner feed isn't a dead end so there's not a dead end shot on the left or there's not a there is a dead end shot when you hit the there is somewhere it's like you know like the scoops close in and that pops kind of close in on the right side obviously if you just go by the strict definition of three flippers it's not i would say jaws is to me jaws is 100 the the three flipper game that absolutely bucks the trend because that that third flipper could not work on a jaws and i think you could still play that game completely fine and i know some people will write in and go oh my god dude the fish finder or whatever that shit's called like those target is so important and i'm like whatever you could easily you could take that layout if they had removed that from the pro or something you could just rewrite the code and it wouldn't be an impactful part of the game yeah i do i mean i like the ball locked or in multiball multiball kind of cool but other than that that flipper it's so low on the playfield it feels out of the way i feel like that's keith's closest to a fan layout for sure all of the entries to the shots are like really at a similar far back open playfield like they return to your flipper so it does feel fanny godzilla feels more like tales of the arabian nights like it has like swirly guides but it doesn't it almost looks like a fan and it kind of gives you feelings of a fan sometimes but you know see why people argue that it's not and obviously it does have the upper flipper so it definitely isn't but now we got to talk about Steve Ritchie here because we're gonna go into a series of these Steve Ritchie games that are almost fans yeah and some people just like we were saying about jaws is they'll be like i don't care that's got an upper flipper that's a fucking fan i know it when I see it. And the first one, I'm just going to say them all. The first three are Star Trek The Next Generation, Stern Trek, and Spider-Man, because also some people will say, these are all the same game, man. Steve just keeps fleecing us, dude. He's like, they're all the same. Look out. Yeah. And I think you could throw Getaway in here as well. Getaway has an upper flipper loop, dude. Yeah. It's a different, I guess that's a different, Yeah, but it's kind of the same as this. It's just flat instead of going up a ramp. I mean, again, though, I think all these games play different. They all do. They all play different. Now, I will say that Next Gen and Stern Trek are the most similar to one another. I do think that, to me, Stern Trek and Spider-Man feel like fans. Yeah. Like, they feel the most like fans. but I would argue that with my definition of a fan, I would go the upper flipper. You have to hit the venom shot on Spider-Man. You have to use it to use warps. So that's an important shot. It's a different currency. It's a different way of playing that game. So that's not a fan because now it's a cross-playfield shot that you can't hit from the lower flippers. But they do feel more like fans. I would say the one that doesn't is Next Gen. Next Gen does not feel like a fan to me at all. No. And that's the funny part, because it is very like Stern, Stern Trek, Stern, Star Trek, whatever that came out in 2011. Right. For anyone around then anyone listening probably knows the two. But those it's kind of like a compressed, narrow, standard body version of next gen. Like a lot of the shots are kind of in the same places and stuff. Right. It was an intentional homage because they're both Star Trek themed. They play so different. And I think that's like a really good example of why. Like one of these does feel like a fan to me, Stern Shrek, because you do kind of like slop into shots and it is really fast and it's like a pretty friendly layout and everything. And then the other one, which is shots in the same spots, theoretically, is just infinitely harder and more like brutal and nothing happens on accident. The ball stops more in Next Gen and there's subways and different canons and stuff. So it just it feels different. It feels different. And that's when you start realizing like the layouts aren't really like that's why you can't quantify this. Because when you when you try to quantify it, you have people arguing nonsense like Deadpool and Ghostbusters are fans. They're fans, dude. I think both of those are fans. Yeah, maybe. Not to me. OK, so then we got to talk about the last one on the list because we save the best for last. In some ways, people will go, this is the ultimate fan. you said it when you did your die on the hill episode and it's Steve Ritchie's no fear you even said this is the fanniest fan layout that's ever existed yeah you said that on the episodes and i think yeah but and the reason why you say that is because all the shots are laid in a fan they're all roughly the same distance from the flippers yep there's nothing but shots there's nothing but shots there's no targets in between or anything like that but there is a big part of the game is an upper flipper where you shoot a looping jump ramp and so i think a lot of people go well that's not a fan yeah what do you think that's one that it's like the feel matters more than the definition and there's no way it's also part of this is that visually and it is the art is part of that but even if you removed that you're like visually you look at the play field without the upper flipper and you're like well that's clearly a fan layout yeah that's why that If it was made today and it was a pro where you don't get the jumping upper loop, you'd be like, absolutely, this is a fan. This is the fanniest fan. Yeah, and it would also probably be one of the only upper playfields that I would say is worth the money on a premium because that upper flipper on No Fear is sick. So good. So good. That game's so good. I mean, it is a fan to me. That layout feels like a fan, and that's why it's hard to put into words. I would say that's a fan, too. That's what it feels like to me. It's got to be. It feels like a fan. I think we should end this episode. I read a great quote from that Pinside thread about all the fans. There was a lot of good ones, but I think this one sort of encapsulates it, so I like to read it at the end of this episode. But Trebo69 says, I agree that No Fear is one of the most fanniest designs despite the upper flipper. It only does the one shot. When I think of a fan, I think of numerous orbits, ramps, scoops, saucers, etc., that are positioned relatively far back and often safely return the ball to a flipper. I think pinball naturally evolved into featuring the fan layout because it really maximizes the number of shots you can cram onto a playfield by pushing everything away from the flippers. That's good for the novice player because of the easier recovery and can be good for the advanced player if the rule set takes advantage of mixing up all the different shots. Older games definitely had a lot more sucker shots that were close to the flippers or in the center of the playfield that were difficult to hit and dangerous to recover from if missed, sometimes even one hit. the fan layout isn't necessarily bad sometimes games feel too similar which can be bad for a collector or an operator it's also an issue when the rules don't have you regularly changing up the shots and rewards the safe ball return ramp shots too much pinball layout should always offer a nice selection of high risk high reward shots but anyways the fan layout is like porn you know it when you see it and i was like i was like that's kind of it right like yeah i agree with the last line it's like in the last sentence there it's like everyone draws the line somewhere different but you know it to you know when you see it and i that's a well-written little excerpt there's some gems in pin side there are a lot of good dudes on there for as much shit as we give that website as a whole and like this is like a really you're like well written little summary of this where it's like yeah there's things that make it and things that don't it all kind of like there's good ways and bad ways to do it and like he kind of gets in here there's some some times that layout gets used better or worse but like it's not necessarily a bad thing by any means no i think fan layouts some of the greatest games of all times are fan layouts tried and true fan layouts nobody's going to tell me that attack from mars isn't one of the best pinwashings ever made yeah so like for terminator 2 or acdc or if you can spit or spider-man and stern trek man i love those games sort of rage pro man yeah you're like there's so many examples of these that i love and i would it's like i don't even equate those games in my head because they're all different yeah and then you love like deadpool ghostbusters whatever like those you're like those aren't fans you know Well, some people would say they are. But we want you to leave this episode. We want you to go out and play some pinball. That's the message. Always go out and play some fan layouts. Yeah, which is, per Alan's definition, every two-flipper game. That's most people's definition. Yeah, I suppose. I mean, if you go on pin side when a new game comes out, everyone's trying to – everyone's, like, chomping at the bit to be like, fan layout, dude. Fan layout. Like, just about to blow a gasket over it. Like they're personally offended that a pinball company is trying to give you a pinball machine that's similar to other pinball machines that you love. Yeah. Like, God forbid, they're trying to do something like that. But yeah, go out, go find yourself one of the many fan layout games out there. It's probably going to be fun. Yeah. And they're easy to find. Yeah. They're easy to find. Easy to find. And if you want to, you could send us an email at Wedgeheadinfo at gmail.com. You can tell us why you think a certain game that we mentioned is or is not a fan in your own ideology or your favorite fans or whatever. And like we said at the top of the episode, if you want to support the show, you go to ko-fi.com slash Wedgehead Podcast. Yeah, send us a few bucks so we can make it out to East Coast and see our buddies, former guests of the show, everybody out there, and go check out Pentastic. Yeah, but until next time, good luck. Don't suck. We'll see you next time.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

---

*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 1c516c77-6cac-429e-b809-5c171b8dee3e*