# Episode 35: We talk RAZA, History Lesson, and Tribe Talk.

**Source:** Poor Man's Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2019-11-20  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://poormanspinballpodcast.libsyn.com/episode-35-we-talk-raza-history-lesson-and-tribe-talk

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## Analysis

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast Episode 35 features hosts Drew and Scott Ian discussing Deep Root Pinball's first release, Raza, alongside personal pinball news, merchandise promotions, and critical analysis of recent podcast coverage. The hosts critique Zach Sharpe's reduced critical balance as a distributor and Kaneda's inconsistent stance on theme importance, while offering measured first impressions of Raza as a deliberately entry-level debut designed to test the market before releasing stronger titles like Alice in Wonderland.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Raza is intentionally Deep Root's weakest theme/entry-level game to test the market before releasing Magic Girl and Alice in Wonderland — _Drew: 'it's the weakest theme. Let's just get it out. Get it out the door. Let's see what it does.' Robert Mueller allegedly chose Raza specifically for this reason._
- [MEDIUM] Zach Sharpe's podcast critique quality has declined since becoming a pinball distributor — _Scott Ian expressed nostalgia for Sharpe's detailed critical style from 'Straight Down the Middle' and noted his reduced willingness to criticize new Stern releases publicly_
- [MEDIUM] Kaneda's Pinball Podcast has been inconsistent about theme importance, emphasizing it heavily for months then deprioritizing it when discussing Raza/Jurassic Park — _Scott Ian: 'Five months just talking about how important theme is' then suddenly Kaneda shifts focus to game mechanics for Raza despite criticizing theme-weak games earlier_
- [HIGH] Greg Bone believes Raza should be priced around $5,000 — _Drew citing Greg Bone from This Week In Pinball: 'I think he was looking at basically around 5000 that's a fair price for this game'_
- [HIGH] Raza features multiple small mechs rather than one large centerpiece mech — _Drew: 'I'd almost prefer a whole play field full of mechs than one giant mech and no ramps or nothing going on'_
- [MEDIUM] Deep Root Pinball's cabinet art shown is not final, will receive significant polish and new features — _Drew: 'that's not the final version of the cabinet art' and references rumors about glass features and pin stadiums in final version_
- [HIGH] Raza has smooth backbox animations and good visual presentation despite incomplete development — _Drew: 'I think the animations were smooth... I think it's a great step'_
- [HIGH] Poor Man's Pinball Podcast is raising funds for video equipment with goal of launching video content by early 2024 — _Drew: 'Every single dollar is going towards video equipment. Our goal is to get set up by the end of the year'_

### Notable Quotes

> "Raza's the first game out the door... Because he looked at all the themes coming in and he's like, this is easily the weakest theme. Let's just get it out. Get it out the door."
> — **Drew**, N/A
> _Frames Raza as intentional market test using weakest IP before releasing stronger titles_

> "I miss that Zach Sharpe, and I want that Zach Sharpe back. But I know he's a distributor, and it's changed since he's a distributor."
> — **Scott Ian**, N/A
> _Expresses concern about how distributor role may compromise critical independence_

> "It's like those half and half grills where you get the worst of both worlds... This is a goofy theme that John Papaduke came up with."
> — **Drew**, N/A
> _Characterizes Raza's blended retro-zombie-carnival theme as unfocused and compromised_

> "If Deep Root Pinball comes out with something like Alice in Wonderland, everyone's just going to go, oh my God, take my money."
> — **Drew**, N/A
> _Suggests market will respond much more positively to upcoming Deep Root titles with stronger IP_

> "I'd almost prefer a whole play field full of mechs than one giant mech and no ramps or nothing going on."
> — **Drew**, N/A
> _Defends Raza's design choice against criticism of lacking single large centerpiece mech_

> "Suck on that, buttholes. That's our new phrase. I love it."
> — **Scott Ian**, N/A
> _Establishes recurring catchphrase/running gag for podcast_

> "The 15-ouncers. Don't buy the 12-ounce. It's going to suck. You're going to get the 15-ounce."
> — **Drew**, N/A
> _Merchandise upsell commentary demonstrating monetization efforts_

> "Attack from Mars has the little martians on the stick and it has the center bash toy right and outside of that what does it have nothing... and it's well received because it's a fun game."
> — **Drew**, N/A
> _Uses Attack from Mars as precedent for successful game without dominant mech centerpiece_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Deep Root Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer releasing Raza as first commercial game; has announced pipeline including Magic Girl and Alice in Wonderland; characterization as deliberately choosing weakest theme first |
| Robert Mueller | person | Founder/owner of Deep Root Pinball; made decision to release Raza as entry-level first game rather than stronger IP like Magic Girl or Alice in Wonderland |
| Raza | game | Deep Root Pinball's first commercial release; retro-atomic-zombie-carnival theme; features multiple small mechs, backbox screen with smooth animations, brushed steel aesthetic (placeholder), priced around $7,500 |
| Zach Sharpe | person | Pinball podcaster and distributor; formerly hosted 'Straight Down the Middle'; criticized for reduced critical balance in recent coverage of new Stern games due to distributor role |
| Kaneda's Pinball Podcast | organization | Pinball podcast hosted by Kaneda; criticized for inconsistent stance on theme importance; advocated premium pricing for Raza while previously emphasizing theme as critical factor |
| Greg Bone | person | Guest on 'This Week In Pinball'; assessed Raza's fair market price at approximately $5,000 |
| This Week In Pinball | organization | Pinball podcast featuring Greg Bone discussing Raza pricing and valuation |
| John Papaduke | person | Credited as designer/creator of Raza theme by Drew; characterized as 'goofy theme' |
| Jurassic Park | game | Stern premium pinball game positioned as market leader; Referenced as superior alternative to Raza for purchase consideration; moving T-Rex mech not centerpiece |
| Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory | game | JJP premium pinball game; positioned as preferred purchase option over Raza; referenced as comparison point for cabinet art quality and theme integration |
| Alice in Wonderland | game | Upcoming Deep Root Pinball title; anticipated to be stronger IP release following Raza; expected to drive significant market enthusiasm |
| Magic Girl | game | Upcoming Deep Root Pinball title in development; mentioned alongside Alice in Wonderland as stronger IP releases following Raza |
| Elvira's House of Horrors | game | Stern pinball game with premium edition featuring large mech; referenced as recent game with significant centerpiece mech |
| Black Knight | game | Historical pinball reference; identified as one of last games with major centerpiece mech |
| Attack from Mars | game | Successful Spooky pinball game used as precedent for game success without dominant centerpiece mech; features small martian stickers and center bash toy |
| The Walking Dead | game | Stern zombie-themed pinball game; referenced as successful zombie theme example |
| Oktoberfest | game | Pinball game with carnival/drinking theme; referenced in theme discussion context |
| Drew | person | Co-host of Poor Man's Pinball Podcast; rebuilding flippers on Firepower, trading Bram Stoker's Dracula, providing Raza first impressions analysis |
| Scott Ian | person | Co-host of Poor Man's Pinball Podcast; critical of podcast inconsistency; discussing merchandise and video equipment funding goals |
| Poor Man's Pinball Podcast | organization | Independent pinball podcast featuring Drew and Scott Ian; launching merchandise through Silverball Swag; raising funds for video equipment |
| Silverball Swag | company | Merchandise vendor for Poor Man's Pinball Podcast; producing hoodies, mugs, shirts, hats |
| Bram Stoker's Dracula | game | Vintage pinball machine being traded by Drew; valued around $3,600; Sam Stern game referenced as desired trade target |
| Firepower | game | Vintage pinball machine owned by Drew; currently undergoing flipper restoration with new-style kits from Pinball Life |
| F-14 Tomcat | game | Vintage pinball machine owned by Drew; scheduled for flipper rebuild following Firepower completion |
| Pinball Life | company | Supplier of flipper kits and restoration parts; provided components for Drew's Firepower rebuild |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Deep Root Pinball's market strategy and Raza as intentional entry-level release, Pinball podcast credibility, critical independence, and distributor conflicts of interest, Raza game design, theme execution, and mech implementation, Pricing expectations and market positioning for Raza vs. competing premium titles
- **Secondary:** Poor Man's Pinball Podcast merchandise and monetization, Vintage pinball machine restoration and trading/collectibility, Theme importance in pinball design and criticism consistency
- **Mentioned:** Centerpiece mech design philosophy in modern pinball games

### Sentiment

**Mixed** (0.55) — Hosts offer cautiously positive assessment of Raza's game design and mechanics while expressing significant frustration with podcast industry inconsistency, distributor conflicts, and theme/pricing positioning. Critical of competitor podcasters while supportive of their personally-owned titles (Jurassic Park Premium, Willy Wonka). Tone is playful and humorous but underlying criticism is substantive.

### Signals

- **[community_signal]** Kaneda's Pinball Podcast accused of inconsistent critical stance: spent 4-5 months emphasizing theme importance as primary design metric, then abruptly deprioritized theme for Raza while elevating it for Jurassic Park based on game mechanics (confidence: medium) — Scott Ian: 'Five months just talking about how important theme is, right?... And then all of a sudden Raza hits and now all of a sudden his Jurassic Park boner's out'
- **[community_signal]** Poor Man's Pinball Podcast implementing interactive merchandise voting model where listeners vote on top trade offers for Bram Stoker's Dracula; monetizing community engagement through Silverball Swag merchandise sales with stated goal of video equipment funding (confidence: high) — Drew: 'I'm gonna keep these offers coming for the next i'm gonna say two to three weeks... going to have you guys vote and that's what i'm gonna get'
- **[sentiment_shift]** Raza has received generally positive initial reactions from players and observers; characterized as 'good first outing' with smooth animations and fun shot layout despite thematic and design compromises (confidence: medium) — Scott Ian: 'I think it is pretty consistent about this game so far that it's been received kind of well... people think it's a halfway decent game'
- **[product_concern]** Deep Root Pinball's cabinet art and cosmetics are placeholder/incomplete; hosts express concern about avoiding 'novelty stuff' in final cabinet design while remaining optimistic about functional improvements (confidence: medium) — Drew: 'I just hope that whatever they do with the cabinet you know they're gonna have some some cabinet with some you know crazy new features... I just hope it's not novelty stuff'
- **[design_philosophy]** Raza uses distributed multiple small mechs approach rather than single large centerpiece; hosts defend this as viable alternative citing Attack from Mars precedent; mechanical diversity preferred over singular dominant toy (confidence: high) — Drew: 'I'd almost prefer a whole play field full of mechs than one giant mech... That's all it is' referencing Attack from Mars
- **[community_signal]** Zach Sharpe's role as pinball distributor appears to have reduced his critical independence on podcast coverage of new Stern releases; hosts attribute decline in detailed critical analysis to business relationship conflicts (confidence: medium) — Scott Ian: 'I was very very good with describing what he didn't like on Raza... I miss that Zach Sharpe' and 'there is no way he can say certain things about a Sam Stern game' as distributor
- **[market_signal]** Significant disagreement on Raza pricing; Drew values at ~$5,000 (Greg Bone assessment), hosts indicate $7,500 asking price is above market willingness for unfamiliar theme; middle-tier buyers would prefer Jurassic Park Premium or Willy Wonka at same price (confidence: high) — Scott Ian: 'at 7500 you know me being... a middle of the road type buyer... I would never I just wouldn't spend 7500 on that game... I'd go Jurassic Park Premium Edition in a heartbeat'
- **[product_concern]** Raza theme execution criticized as unfocused hybrid of retro-atomic, zombie, and carnival aesthetics that dilutes each; 'worst of both worlds' approach rather than committed thematic direction (confidence: high) — Drew: 'it's not a very good space theme... it's not a very good zombie theme and it's not a very good carnival theme like they fucked all three because you can't have so much on there'
- **[product_strategy]** Deep Root Pinball deliberately released Raza as intentionally weak entry-level title before stronger IP releases (Magic Girl, Alice in Wonderland); Robert Mueller selected Raza specifically as weakest theme to test manufacturing capability (confidence: high) — Drew: 'he looked at all the themes coming in and he's like, this is easily the weakest theme. Let's just get it out.'
- **[business_signal]** Deep Root Pinball using Raza as calculated market test with weakest available IP to establish manufacturing proof-of-concept before releasing stronger themes; deliberate low-risk entry strategy (confidence: high) — Drew: 'Because this is just their entry-level, first game out the door, just to see if they can do it... If it does kind of well, then they're like, okay, if we put out something like Alice in Wonderland'

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## Transcript

 game's over losers oh yeah it's time the wait is over you've waited a week or more and now it is finally here the time has come for this week's Poor Man's Pinball Podcast starring Drew and starring Ian. That's it, man. Game over, man. Game over. Game over. One of the nights, I'm a-stampin' me One of the nights, if I can't get free I'm gonna drink my way Welcome to the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast, episode number 35. The only pinball podcast that needs a complete teardown and restore. That's true, that's very true. Today's episode, we'll be taking a deep dive into Deep Root. I thought you said dick dive. for a second. We could do that too. A dick dive and a deep root. Dick dive, deep root. Deep dive and a deep root. We got some poor man's podcast personal pinball news and we got some history lesson. We got a pinball history lesson. It's our first one. New season. Yeah, new season. I'm excited about it. New segment. That's what I meant. New segment. Yep. We got some other great stuff and we got a mailbag and let's kick this shit off. What you drinking today, buddy? Vodka and Rebel. How about yourself? Well, I was drinking the shit drink that I made for myself. Just bartending again. And it was so bad, I just dumped it out. Now I got some Belmont rum and coke. You dumped it out? Well, no. You didn't fix shit, did you? No. There was no coming back from that. It was terrible. It was terrible. It's okay. So, yeah, a little rum, a little coke. Feeling a little rummy today. It's good, man. The rum is good. Rum's good for everything. Rum's good for... Especially that Belmont stuff. That's the stuff from St. Kitts, though. I still got it over there? Yeah, a little bit. Nice. Yeah. Cool, brother. How you been otherwise? Good, man. Yeah? Just another week in paradise. How about you? I've been all right, man. What the hell have I been up to? Work. Yeah, work. I did go to Discovery World. I know I was talking about it on the last, I don't know, fuck you to Friday, but fuck it Friday. It was pretty sweet. The little one had a meltdown about 30 minutes in, so we were out. But we got a pass, so it didn't really pay for itself. Go in, see some of the cool things. We're on borrowed time. That's the nice thing about those passes. Once you get in enough, now they're paid for. Now it's just free after that. That's how they get you. They're like, you only need to come here two times or three times to pay for this pass. For Discovery World, it's like two times. so it was kind of sweet so we go in there she melts down i don't feel bad i'm just like well let's get in the fucking car we already paid you know it's already this is basically free let's get out of here says the cheap man is uh just well you know if i were to pay full price we'd be like this is bullshit i'm gonna strap you in i'm gonna give you an apple for your mouth sure just shut up and then we're gonna go and we're gonna discover the world is discovery world is that like a franchise is all over the country or is that just here in milwaukee i don't know yeah for those who It's like a science museum for kids. Yeah, they teach you about science and stuff. They got cool little experiments. Ours in Milwaukee has a full-on aquarium, too. She likes the aquarium. I did not know that. Yeah, it's a huge-ass aquarium, too. Is that all by the museum and shit? It's all in the same place. There's a full aquarium, and then there's the Discovery World Museum. For those who don't know, we talk about Jurassic Park here a lot. The Milwaukee Museum has a great dinosaur exhibit. It's been there forever. Oh, ever since I was a kid. Yeah. They actually have this full-size T-Rex. Yeah, tearing into a Triceratops. Yeah, the Triceratops has a flesh wound. And this thing is what? It's like two stories high. Yeah, it is. It's big. It's awesome. My grandmother used to freak the shit out of me every time I was misbehaving in the museum. You know, when she'd take me, she'd just be like, I got a toothbrush in my bag. You got to go up there and clean the teeth of the T-Rex. It's two stories, man. And he's all bloody because he's eaten this Triceratops. They have sound effects and everything. It's scary. It's storming in the background, so it's just creepy. It's not PG anymore. That was never PG. A lot of the stuff in the museum when we were kids, all the scary stuff has been toned down big time. And now it's all pretty much G-rated, except for that fucking dinosaur. Yes. No, it is awesome. It still looks freaking wicked, man. And I told you how much of a fan I was. So when I was a kid, like, I loved it. Yeah, you go there today, it is just as impressive today. Because now you're like, holy shit, I can't believe that somebody, like, you know, made this. I mean, it's an impressive sculpture. And it's still in one piece. Yes. Whoever made it. 40 years ago or something. I mean, it's been there a while. I don't even know how old that thing is. Older than us, that's for sure. Yeah, dude. So, anyways, check it out. Milwaukee Public Museum, MPM, I think. Yeah. So, check it out. Boom. There you go. We are now the tourist destination of the world. Milwaukee famous. The Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. Hey, when you guys come for MGC, come check it out. It's real close. There you go. So it's right downtown. Yep, absolutely. All right. Hey, we were a little cultured today. I love it. Yep, suck on that, buttholes. And then we transition into Fuck It Friday. Oh, man. Fuck on that, buttholes. All right, pinball, pinball, pinball. What do we got? Personal pinball news. You got anything new this week? I got nothing. How about you? Yeah, I got lots, man. Oh, my God. What a surprise. Guys, every week it's the same thing. Drew's got lots. All right. No, not as much. I'm rebuilding the flippers on Firepower. I'm changing them to the new style, which I found is it's not more difficult than I thought. There's a lot more steps involved than I thought. It was one of those things. I bought the kits from Pinball Life, and I thought it is a lot of just piecing together and swapping, but everything's brand new, so I'm excited. I'm almost there. Sweet. Awesome. That's cool. I'm doing the same thing with F-14 once I'm done with that. But the big news of today is, and I know Ian's not going to like this because he still hasn't played BSD. I put BSD up on pin side for trade bait. Oh, there you go. So I don't know yet. I have a huge list because I was like, you know what? This game's kind of like the middle tier game, you know, as far as price and collectability and all that stuff. So I can probably, you know, pull something in pretty cool. So I put it up for, you know, what did I put on there? I think $3,600, but I'm not trying to sell it, and I told people that. I'm looking for a trade. Good luck. I put, well, plus or minus cash. I know. It's just been so tough. I know. I tried to trade the Monster Bash. It was just a disaster. Yeah. So then it got me thinking, right? Drew's always going on about all this cool pinball stuff. I was like, you know what? I'm going to get a lot of crazy offers, and I already got a couple today. so i'm gonna i'm gonna keep these offers coming for the next i'm gonna say two to three weeks and then i'm gonna keep posting them i'm gonna come up with the top five i'm gonna have you guys vote and that's what i'm gonna get oh shit how's that how's that for cool that sounds interactive yeah as if yeah no other podcast is doing that except for ours if you could see us winking at you right now you'd see it so suck on that butthole Wait, that's our new phrase. I love it. Snuck on the ab buttholes is our tagline. Forget sloppiest show on the internet. So already today, after like, you know, you put it up for an hour and you get people texting you and sending you whatever messages. The first guy, he's in Minneapolis. He's like, well, if you ever want to just sell it outright, I'll come pick it up. I said, okay, I'll put you in the queue, but I want to see what I can get for this thing. he's like okay so then the next guy's like can i buy your dollar bill acceptor and i was like sure you know what i don't need it so so i'm working on a deal with him to just you know ship him that or whatever then the third guy he offered me a collector's and i'm putting this in quotes collector's quality party zone which is you know kind of the the partner to dr dude the not quite as well-received one. You know, a cool game. People like it. It's got cool stuff. I saw it on. Yeah. It's been for sale forever. It keeps popping up. Oh, is that the same one? I think it has to be the same deal. What was it? Is it like $2,500 or something? Yeah. Okay. I'm not asking a taunt. $2,800 something. Okay. Rings to mind. Sure. I think I've seen it on Facebook. It's been there for a while. I didn't look any further. He just said if I wanted a picture. I said, yeah, send me pictures. Party Zone? Yeah. Yeah. Because it wasn't on my list. My list was a lot of Stern Pros. Funny enough, that's not on anybody's list. It's not. I would like to play it, though, for sure. Sure, sure. And, you know, that one's probably a no. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to collect kind of the five best offers of something I'd really want in the house. And then we'll put it up as a poll and see how it goes. I got to come by and play it. You do. I'll play it before it leaves. It's going to be there a while because I'm going to keep getting these offers. I'm really looking for a Stern Pro. You know, Star Trek, Star Wars. what else did I put on it? Ghostbusters. You know, something like that. I'll add some cash and get something kind of cool. Or the number one game on Pinside this week? Jurassic Park. No, that's got to be a premium. I'm going to be a snob about that one. I need the moving head. I get it, man. I get it 100%. I would totally trade that with some cash for it, but now I'm going to wait until I can swing something for the premium. Yeah, no worries. Anyways, that's my personal pinball news. Yeah, I guess my only news here, folks, is that I did order a bunch of shit from Silverball Swag. Some of our own shit, our own swag. Because I got to see what I'm selling. And I got a pretty badass sweatshirt. The sweatshirt is a zip-up hoodie, and I ordered one as well, and I'm still waiting. It is so cool, man. It's not so much a sweatshirt as it is a hoodie. Just like a thin... It's a thin, like, cotton hoodie. It's awesome. God, it's so comfortable. it's my favorite shirt right now of all time you can sleep in it you can eat in it you can drink in it you can even move you can sit yeah there's so many things the possibilities are endless yeah so suck on that buttholes i also got us our poor man's pinball mugs oh these are so neat tell them about the mugs so the mugs actually have our secondary logo it's the skull and flippers on both sides, by the way. With both sides, so no matter how you're drinking, you'll always see it. And it's like, what I like about it is it's the regular kind of diameter coffee mug, but it's taller. Yeah, so you have two options when you order it. It's either 12-ounce or 15-ounce. These are the 15-ouncers. Oh, see, I didn't even know that. So I sprung for the extra one. Suck on that butthole. Yeah, exactly. No, that is so cool. I don't know if you guys have seen it, but it's basically a pretty much badass skull with a little pinball in one of the eyes because keep your eye on the ball. I know we're selling this stuff and this is terrible to say. Don't buy the 12-ounce. It's got to suck. You've got to get 15-ounce. Oh, yeah, 15-ounce like a grown-ass man. And what's the difference? Probably a dollar or two. We're wearing the same shirt today, Drew. We are. We're wearing the purple Special Win Lit shirt. We got the Special Edition Special Win Lit shirt. Special Edition Special Win Lit shirt. Yeah, the purple version. So, Ken, if you're listening to this, man, we love the shirt. Thank you very much. love the love to support everybody yeah he gave us these for free and ian's yeah thanks for supporting us yeah thank you for warming my chest and as long as we're gonna keep chilling and stroking everyone off here let's chill ian's wearing the loser kid pinball podcast hat i never said i ordered this yeah just so you guys out there i do have the loser kid hats and it is without a doubt the best hat i own this this is the best hat i've ever owned this little two minutes we just had reminds me of that scene from Wayne's World. Oh, totally. When Garth has his feet up and he goes, yeah, I don't like these sellouts, man. Yeah, it's just sad. And he's got the Reebok gear on, and he's drinking the Pepsi. It's a choice for a new generation. They're eating pizza. Yeah, pizza. I have a headache. Take two of these. They're small, different, yellow. Oh, my God. We were such a commercial for the last two minutes. That's okay, though. It's good shit. I'm just trying to promote Silver Bell Swag. I'm trying to promote us. Like I said, we're trying to get video equipment people. We really are. We were talking about it again today. Every single dollar is going towards video equipment. Our goal is to get set up by the end of the year, so by the beginning of next year we can kind of get rolling with some of that stuff. Yeah, get awesome. Or stupid. Suck on that, buttholes. Yeah, buttholes, are you listening? What are we even talking about? Nobody knows. All right, let's move on. Let's move on. so news is easy today bro so easy the deep dick deep dive deep dick deep dive deep root pinball here we go man what man retro atomic zombie adventure land and he wasn't reading that i totally read it reading retro atomic zombie adventure land boom um first impressions first impressions do you want to go or do you want me to go i'll go go i'm kind of fired yeah i see that I have a lot of things to say. I got to get out of this man's way. He's rearing to go here. I love it. The first thing I have to say is nothing about the game. You're fired. Get out of here. Nothing I have to say is about this game yet. Should I make two more drinks while I'm waiting for this? No, no, no, no, no, no. You'll agree with me. All right. So this has been, I don't know, you guys have probably been listening to a lot of the podcasts out there. This has been a very difficult week so far of podcasts, and it's only Monday. Why do you say that? So I just got done listening to Twip. We had Greg Bone and Zach on, and Kaneda had some stuff on this as well, this Raza. Yeah, he had that guy that played. And both were, they both bothered me for whatever reason. So different reasons. So let me go after Zach first. Sorry, Zach, I love you, brother. See, here's the thing with Zach. He was very, very critical on Raza. I mean, he did give some really good points, things he liked about it, but the things he was very critical critical about he was really critical and and i don't think that's a bad thing that's his opinion and he's allowed to have that opinion absolutely um zach it's it's your opinion bro you can do it brother but here's the problem and this is why it makes me kind of sad when i was listening to him today it was the fact that the reason why i fell in love with straight down the middle so much is because zach has a great way of critiquing games and even if it's a game he loves but doesn't like something in the game he has a great way to describe it um it almost makes it look like or you can picture it in your head as he describes it he's very very detailed he tells you exactly what's wrong with it he tells you why it's wrong and how it could be improved upon agreed and he's really good at that and what makes it sad is he was doing that with raza which is fine but i kind of missed that zach on these last few stern releases like you know they were bitching about raza not having that one big mech you know and i was i was kind of like well i'd rather have a lot of different mechs populate a playfield than say elvira house of horrors with one big house with that let's let's stick to your point though about the podcast here well that's that's what i'm talking about it's it's he was very very good with describing what he didn't like on Raza. There was a lot of different points. I don't have them all written down here. But I'm just telling you in general, I miss that Zach, and I want that Zach back. But I know he's a distributor, and it's changed since he's a distributor. I was just about to say, there is no way, and I don't fault him for this at all, there is no way he can say certain things about a Stern game. See, I disagree, because I sell things for a living. When you talk to a customer... But you don't have a podcast about it. Yeah, I understand. But when you talk to a customer, you have to ask a lot of questions, see what they like. Sure. Okay? Agreed. What it is that you are looking for in a pinball machine, and then you go through each different pinball machines you're selling right now, give them the pros and cons of each one. Nobody likes all pros, because what happens when you just throw up pinball on somebody? You become a used car salesman. You do. Yeah. You turn into that guy. We apologize to all the used car salesmen out there. Not only that, but, you know, Zach, I don't mean this in a negative way. We love you to death. I'm just a critique. You know, we miss the old Zach a little bit with that kind of stuff. So you're saying he should be more fair and balanced? Well, try to be. Okay. I mean, for every three or four things he loves on these new games that he's selling, you know, hit us with one of those things you wish was better. That's all. That's all I'm saying. I think that's a fair point. And I think other people have also probably brought that to his attention. But once again, I don't. I'm not calling him a shill. I think it's his, you know, he's making money on this. He's got to do this. And I get it. But I think there's a way to do it both to make it seem a little bit more fair. And to your point about being, you know, you're a salesman and you do some of the same things to be fair to people. You know Kaneda brought up that point about the distributor that told him not to buy the Elvira signature Right Because he really wanted it He like yeah I might want to get this And he just said nope don do it Don do it Because there not enough in it And that, to me, is a good salesman. That's a guy that's like, hey, I'm going to just tell you. And I'm sure behind the scenes, Zach probably says a lot more of that stuff to people. Oh, I guarantee you. I guarantee you. So to that, I guess that is the fair and balanced. He has a public persona. He has a private persona. And we've kind of witnessed both, obviously. And, you know, sometimes they collide and sometimes they don't. But I think ultimately he's probably doing right by his customers. Oh, absolutely. And I'm still waiting for my first new in-box experience with Zach. I want him to come in the Ian Malcolm shirt to my house. Naturally. Yep. Naturally. Yep. I'll kick the wife out. Yep. Yep. Play some music. Yep. Yep. Yeah, it'll be a good time. Pour a cocktail or two. Yep. When you bring my Jurassic Park premium, Zach, that's what's happening. I want you also to be dressed like Ian Malcolm just to make it really weird. We'll take video of it. All right, so the other podcast that was bugging me was Kaneda. Different kind of bugging me, though, because, and we talked about this, but Kaneda, God bless the man. You know, we've spent the last four months, five months. I mean, everybody that listens to Kaneda and is listening to us understands this. Five months just talking about how important theme is, right? Theme, theme, theme. Yeah. Theme integration. Wonka doesn't have theme integration. They screwed up the whole theme thing. Theme, theme, theme. All we ever talk about is theme. Jurassic Park, he was okay with that being Jurassic Park, the theme, and not like being over it. Because it was still a theme. But it was still a theme that people can recognize, right? Giant. And then he was just like, you know, Oktoberfest, you know, screw that theme. That's not a theme. And Cosmic Carnival, all these other things he was talking about the last five months. That's all we ever heard. and then all of a sudden raza hits and now all of a sudden his j-pop boner's out and he's like he's like he's like oh they should be charging nine thousand dollars for this maybe even more this should be a hell of a game to to really just push and and get some money on it because it's worth it and i'm just like who the fuck is this guy now all of a sudden now he's oh it doesn't matter the theme doesn't matter look at the game it's a j-pop game like and i i called them out a little bit of that on facebook and i just said yeah you know i think if this game's a stern pro price it'll sell a lot and he goes no you can't undersell this game you gotta sell it for what it's worth and my my whole thing was well once again if people are presented with this theme they don't know verse pick any theme that's out there right now for 7 500 bucks they're probably going to pick one of those other themes yeah most people i would agree and greg bone said today i think he was looking at basically around 5 000 that that that's that's a fair price for this game yes i'm i'm in agreeance with greg and i even told you know that it would be a game that i would probably entertain just to see what it's about knowing i could resell it later at you know say 5 000 or 5 500 bucks but at 7 500 you know me being and the other point i made i'm kind of like a middle of the road type buyer i buy some new in box i buy you know value games i'm kind of like you know i'm in between i buy you know a bit but i would never i just wouldn't spend 7500 on that game yeah it would go jurassic park premium in a heartbeat or willy wonka in a heartbeat before that so that's all that and that's you know that's the personal opinions of the hobby yeah absolutely what it is everyone's opinions counts i'm not saying anyone's wrong no you know No, not at all. But I'm just saying, you know, in Kaneda's case, let's be consistent, and in Zach's case, let's try to get a little bit more balance in there. That's all I was saying. Sure. No, and I think those are two good points. Because I love them both. Yeah. I'm a big fan of both guys. And speaking of consistency, I think it is pretty consistent about this game so far that it's been received kind of well. Yeah, yeah. You know, that people think it's a halfway decent game. Some people that have shot it said it's good. We're going to talk about it here in just a moment after this long diatribe. But I think Deep Root is going to put at least a little bit of their money where their mouth is. Yeah, to just get it right into it, what I think about Raza is this. Very simple. First impressions. Guys, if you think this is the Deep Root package that you've been hearing about this whole time, think again. This isn't. Robert has come out and just said, no, it's not. No. And even after they polished this thing, there's a reason why Raza's the first game out the door. Not Magic Girl, not Alice in Wonderland, Raza. Because he looked at all the themes coming in and he's like, this is easily the weakest theme. Let's just get it out. Get it out the door. Let's see what it does. Yep. That's all it is. If it does kind of well, then they're like, okay, if we put out something like Alice in Wonderland, we improve on what we're doing, it's going to... Yeah, people are asking why are there so many reused mechs in this game? Because this is just their entry-level, first game out the door, just to see if they can do it. I'm dreaming for a second. Imagine Alice in Wonderland with the Wonka treatment. You know what I mean? Like if J.J.P. was making it or something. And if Deep Root comes out with something like that, everyone's just going to go, oh, my God, take my money. And I think they will. Sure. But I think my point is this is going to be probably the most basic Deep Root game to come out because it's the first one. It's the weakest theme. A retro, atomic, Zombieland, Adventureland, Zombieland. We have to keep looking at it because it's not catchy. Here's the thing. It's not a very good space theme. it's not a very good zombie theme and it's not a very good carnival theme like they fucked all three because you can't have so much on there hey wait wait wait we've been talking about how some games are great the walking dead it's a zombie theme octoberfest yeah it's a drinking theme no carnival that's a drinking carnival theme and attack from mars they took all three of those games and they went they mashed it that's my mashing sound they mashed the shit out of it yeah it's like those alright guys It's like those grills out there where, yeah, grill, G-R-I-L-L. It's like those grills out there that are like half propane, half charcoal. That means you have. I don't know what I want to be. That means you have the smallest charcoal grill or the smallest propane grill at the same time. That's all that is. It's like the worst propane grill you could buy. My small charcoal grill burns a big fire, buddy. Yeah, your charcoal grill is, that's the shittiest. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like those half and half. Yeah. You get the worst of both worlds. This is what this is. They know what this is. This is a goofy theme that J-Pop came up with, and they're like, fuck it, just send this time out first. People are going to be excited about the Deep Root name. They're going to go and get it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. As far as the game goes itself, I love the art. I love the colors. I'm a sucker for that bright pop of green and purple. I love greens and purples like that. I'm a 90s baby in that way, you know, 80s baby. Yep. Those nice fluorescent colors. Oh, sure. Absolutely. Creature from the Black Lagoon did it good, too. So I think of Creature from the Black Lagoon when I look at this thing. The shots look fun. The game looks fun. I like all the little mechs. I'd almost prefer a whole play field full of mechs than one giant mech and no ramps or nothing going on. Sure, sure. So sorry, guys, but that's how I... This is a good first outing. I like the screen in the backbox. I think the animations were smooth. smooth i will say that obviously they're nowhere near done but i think it's a great step um anyone who thinks like the cabinet art sucks i just have two things for you one that's not the final version of the cabinet art number one and number two it was still better than wanka yeah you know what i'm saying it was about as bare bones as wanka sure and a lot of people said that and it's just it's just not what it's going to look like i mean there'll be some art and you know i was just you know we were talking about i was just talking about attack from mars and stuff and how that's such a great game and i love it but to your point about max you know attack from mars has the little martians on the stick and it has of course the center bash toy right and outside of that what does it have nothing nothing but we love the game and and it's well well received because it's a fun game it wants you to keep playing you know the animations are good it has a lot of the sounds the lights all those things come together so you know whoever's clamoring for well they're gonna say, well, it has the big mech and this game doesn't. Well, you know what? Bullshit. Because that's all that's in that game, but it's a fun game. You can honestly say there hasn't been a really big mech in a while. And that's true. Black Knight is probably the last one. Black Knight, Elvira. I mean, those are two nice mechs, but they're not... Let's look at Jurassic Park. Number one game, right? I mean, yeah, there's the moving T-Rex that's interactive. But he's not the centerpiece of the game. But, yeah, the centerpiece is the ramps. Yeah. And the shots. Yeah. That's all it is. Agreed. That's all it is. Agreed. so um yeah i know my my thoughts are it looks pretty looks like it shoots looks like a fun game doesn't take itself too seriously another thing i find funny is robert Sébastien Muller i think even said that the metal speaker grills and the metal apron that's just like a placeholder but i actually was digging it you know like the steel sure yeah it kind of looked kind of cool and industrial man well it looked like it's just a refreshing refreshing little change of pace i like the the brushed steel look sure no i think i think it is a cool look but i don't think that's uh the final version you know supposedly the final version is gonna look a lot prettier and polished what they're doing is you know they're gonna have some some cabinet with some you know crazy new features on it which may maybe i just hope that whatever they do with the cabinet you know they were talking about this like glass that might you know the rumors about just kind of like opening up where you don't remove the glass or whatever, which is fine. I just hope it's not novelty stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah, we'll see. I hope it's actually functional. I'm sure it will be. I'm sure. And I'm sure they're going to have some sort of pin stadiums built in. Yeah, that's the other one. And I'm sure there's going to be a lot of different things. Sure. But as the game stands, as I saw it on an overhead video of a cell phone. Yeah, that's tough. Which sucked. like all right if you're gonna film that thing with a cell phone could you just stay still don't don't stop in the middle and tie your shoe nobody wants to see that shit just keep it still yeah you don't have to follow the ball you're not fucking uh here's you know canada rips on all these reveals and stuff and it got me thinking you know this one i'm like he really is right because we live in a world now where i mean we learned i say we even learned how to do all this audio stuff for the podcast right but you didn't know any of this stuff before you just learned on youtube and you got it done so anyone with a computer and a little bit of equipment you can make a nice video right you can make nice audio you can do all this stuff why aren't these companies spending a couple hundred dollars to do something with a little production value that's it or for free they can just get a local streamer sure another streamer Absolutely. So I just, it just doesn't make sense to me because it's not like it's, there's, yeah, zero to little cost. And, you know, you can make a nice video and just do it. I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me. But maybe pinball world doesn't need it, I guess. Yeah. People are freaking out about that right crazy corkscrew ramp. Yeah. What do you think about that one? I saw a couple shots being made. I saw a couple shots that weren't hard enough. And that's pinball, baby. Yeah, and that happens. Did you see the little... Unlike Oktoberfest, I still haven't hit that steep-ass fucking ramp. I think I've hit it once. That pisses me off a little bit. That's a tough ramp. It really is. That's almost like the Simpsons treehouse ramp. Yeah, it's like a west-east ramp. It's just... Yep, and Alwin put one of those in Jurassic Park. I mean, those are tough ramps. Those are... My brain breaks when I'm trying to aim for that. You want to run to that side of the machine and have a button right in front of it? What the fuck is this? That's what Deep Root's going to do. They're going to have the whole thing rotate when it's coming down to you. Are you listening, Deep Root? Suck on that, buttholes. The right flipper becomes the bottom flipper. What is going on here? Oh, this is good vodka. What did you think about the game? I'm done. I think I give it six cheese slices right off the bat. I think it's a really cool game. I think it's better than most of the games that have come out this year. I'd want this over Elvira. I would want this over... Really? Not over Jurassic Park, but I'd want it over... What other games came out? Wonka. No. No. So over Elvira, not over Jurassic Park or Wonka. Munsters. Yeah. What else came out this year? Well, Oktoberfest, sort of. you know it was kind of announced last year or whatever yeah yeah no not over alice okay but yeah no i think it's it's a pretty it's pretty solid it's a contender yeah and and i do think i mean they're gonna sell some you know if they release it tomorrow or next week or next year they're gonna sell some it's just a matter of like i said the price is gonna matter because with all those things coming out like i said that theme that theme is not gonna warrant 7500 bucks but it's going to sell some units. So we'll see where they land. Yep. No, yeah, price is king at this point. I mean, it is going to be their first one, but they're also going to cash in on the hype train that it is Deep Root. Yep, people are going to – I can see Stern premium pricing. I could see it. No, I think that's where they're going to end up with it. I just wish they would not. I wish they would just take a dent and just do the five grand because theme, theme, theme, right? Yep. Well, like I said, their sales numbers will show up. They're going to have bigger, better games coming out, folks. Just wait until the Deep Root games start rolling in and the J-pop stuff dries up, and then they actually have guys that have freedom to make a game, gasp, like they want to make. Yeah, like imagine the first Nordman game. Yeah, exactly. That's going to be cool. Super cool. I mean, and I don't want to look too far ahead. Let's focus on this game here. Right, but this is part of the game. True. My whole point of this game is, guys, entry level, let's just enjoy it for what it is. Sure. But understand, don't give Deep Roots such a hard time. It's one, it's their first, and two, it's their weakest title. No, I would say... Easily their weakest title. Overall, I'm impressed with what I saw so far. You know, we waited a long time. We talked about it. We joked about it. We thought, you know, they might fall flat on their face. But I think they showed us, they really showed us something. and I'm just excited to see where it goes. Like I said, I want to see all the cabinet stuff. I would like to see them do something unique with the cabinet, even shape or size. We've talked about that before and some people are totally against it. I'd like to see something new. Me, no, not so much. Well, I know, pinball's pinball. It is what it is, but I just want to see what they can come up with. The game, it looks fun to shoot. I mean, I'm a big fan of Papaduke games. I don't know. Let's go through a couple of Papaduke games. So World Cup Soccer. Are you in on that? Yeah, it's fun. Okay. Good game, right? It's fun to shoot. Okay. Theater of Magic. Oh, yeah. That's a great game. Great game, right? If it's working, it's great. Yes, absolutely. You have to understand, folks, I'm a location guy, so every time I see a Theater of Magic, it's hit or miss out there. That's actually very true. When they're working, what a game. Sure. What a game. Tales of the Arabian Nights. I don't think I've ever played that live I've always played the arcade on the app pinball arcade that game has such cool things going on with the ramp and some other stuff you think it is just an arcade game because there's so much going on in there it's amazing and I would love to play one in person I was kind of disappointed there wasn't one at the expo but whatever what other Papadu games are there? Oh, there is Circus Voltaire. Oh, yeah, the other one. There's another one I have not played in person. That's another one that I am arcade app only, a pinball arcade app. Another cool game, cool ramps, cool spots. I mean, just very unique. It's so colorful on there. I'm sure it must look amazing in person. You know, it's kind of disappointing that I haven't played one in person yet. Some of those games are so expensive. It's hard to find them, too. It's hard to find them. We're going to have to do some pinball maps. He didn't get a nine grand for it either. No, and that's the problem because any of those Williams games, and we talked about it, I would just rather much get a modern game just for reliability and all kinds of other stuff. But I think that's the John Papadiuk library, though. Yeah, most of it. Because he came in a little later. Yeah, true. Yeah, but no, I think he's made all great games. They weren't commercial successes. We all know that, right? No, but they're all fun, and they're games that – They're whimsical. Yeah. That's the best way to pronounce it. Whimsical. They're fun. They have just a – the ball just does fun stuff, and it makes you smile every time. I'm a fan of John Papadiuk's stuff. The man probably should never run another business as long as he lives, by far. No. Designer he shall be. It never a good thing when you need like eight different handlers to help you release a game because that what he in right now He like that you know I don know I going to stop right there because I going to say something stupid Suck on that butthole Just a side note How come World Cup Soccer is I mean did they make that many more of them? That like, you know, all the other ones go for six grand, eight grand, nine grand, and then World Cup Soccer, three grand. They made a problem, didn't they? They must have. Because, you know. They're always for sale. Correct. You can find them. You can't throw a stone and not find one, you know, for $3,000. I can't log into Facebook once a week without seeing one for sale. Troy, one of the guys we deal with, he had two of them at once. He's like, oh, I got two of them. You want this one for $3 or this one for $3,100? Yeah. You know, it's just like, and I want one. It's a fun game. I've never seen one that isn't like, those plastic ramps aren't yellowed to shit. I've never seen a really nice example. Yeah, well, I think that's because they take up the whole play field. So the lights and stuff must have just. Plastic yellows in general. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, just, there's so much surface area there. Any kind of UV is going to yellow the fuck out of them. But, you know, I would like to see, do they make ramps? You know what I'm saying? Like, there's got to be some really nice examples out there that have these really nice crystal clear ramps. Oh, I'm sure. Everyone has. Well, and they, yeah, they do some reproduction. They must. They must. But I just want to, yeah, just, yeah, big fan. It's a fun game. I don't think I'd ever want to own it. I think it gets kind of tiring. But it's fun to play on occasion. Yeah. Yeah, it's just fun. On location, yeah. with a beer and you're at a bar with a bunch of friends and nothing better than go and that's and it's funny that's i'll stop sorry i think there's another episode right of that for about three minutes um that was one you screamed it in the mic yeah i did just just the other day my my wife played that one and she liked it and she doesn't like a lot of pinball and she's like yeah this game's pretty cool you know because it's just it's approachable so so moral of the story The Poor Man's Pinball Podcast is a pro on John Papadiuk and a pro on Deep Root Raza. Yeah. I give it six and a half cheese slices. Ooh, a little bit more than that. Because, like I said, I'm not as big on theme. I mean, and like I said, I'm not going to jump and buy this game. But I just want to see what those mechs can do. I want to shoot this thing. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah. I agree with you. And until we do that, you know, we don't have much more on it, but obviously it's the topic du jour. Yeah. And, yeah, just awesome. Well, Deep Root, good job on releasing Cosmic Carnival 2. All right. Well, we'll take a break here and get some drinks. So enjoy the music. and we're back all right everybody i am drinking appleton rum i drank drinking a whole shit down where appleton rum i just freshened up my drink my what i call it cubra libre yeah rum and coke yeah with a lime but make it sound fancy well the cubra libre no there's a rum and coke right And then if you do a rum and coke with a lime, that's a Cooper Libre. You have to have the lime. I'm drinking rum and coke out of a coffee mug. What do you want from me? A fucking sweet coffee mug. Suck on that, buttholes. Oh, man. This is the part of the show where it gets off the rails. Wait, it hasn't been off the rails since the beginning? Yeah, we haven't really. Since our first episode. what are we going to be professional Joe what are we going to be fair and balanced and blah blah blah blah blah yeah that's about right whatever that was alright here we go so we have a new segment I love it listener number 15 why don't you hit that shit and now it's time for a history lesson brought to you by poor man's pinball podcast if you're not careful you may learn something before it's done so we have this new beautiful segment called history lesson and i think it's very fitting considering i don't know shit about the history of pinball do you no we're all these old games yeah because all we do is talk about the new games and what's coming out right and people are like you poor man why are you talking about new games you can't afford them true it's very true it's so true but um we should get more into the old game so this is going to be a way for us to learn a little bit about some old games so what we do is for history lesson uh drew challenged me to learn about a certain game and next you know next time we do history lesson i will challenge drew to learn about as much as he can about a game um because this is a game i'm kind of looking for It's kind of neat. Yeah, it's kind of cool, the one that he's challenging me on this week. So without further ado, let's talk about Laser War. Pew, pew, pew! Shoo! So Laser War was, or is, a Data East game released in 1987, made $2,500. Is that Data East or Datter East? Data East. Did I say Datter? No. Oh, Data East. That's an Australian joke. That's how they say it over there. Sorry, Martin. I love you, man. So there wasn't a ton on here. Surprise, surprise. It's hard to find info on this fucking thing. What number are we on the Pinside Top 100? I don't know. I didn't even see that. But I did message Joe Kamenkow, and he did not return my message. Big surprise. I was like, Joe, I want to talk about Laser War. What do you got, bro? The subject line said, urgent from the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. and Joe Kaminkow said, wow, that's the worst spam I've ever gotten in my life. Yeah, yeah. That's almost up. It's up there with the Nigerian prince that needs your help, you know. You know, there's some podcasts out there, they can call Kamikawa on his cell phone. Text him real quick while they're on air. Yeah, exactly. We send out an email and he's like, no. No. I see these guys. These guys are fools. Anyway, so let's talk about new features of Laser War. What did you learn? Oh, Laser War is pretty awesome. I did watch a couple of the TNT episodes, too, by the way. So I did get some good look at the gameplay. So we can talk about that if you want. But we'll talk about the new features. New features. Never before happening in pinball. And it's not as low on the list as you would think. What is it? 142. Hey, not bad. Good job, Laser War. You know, Data East... Yeah. Way to go. How do you Laser War? No, all those Data East games, they get a bad rap, but most of them are... It's just the flipper strength. Yeah, there's a lot of... Always my issue. You know what? But they're good games. I don't know if I'll ever get Last Action Hero again, but it was a fun freaking game. You played the fuck out of it. I did. I played so much of that. So cool. Back to Laser War. Laser War. New features. uh it's the very first game to have 2.1 stereo sound what are we at now 8.25 but it had stereo sound so some speakers would say like the call out the other one would have the sound effect so it was kind of cool and you know we take that for granted but that was like a big deal that's a huge deal um it had a crazy topper i'm sorry what year are we in again 87 did you ever see the topper on this thing that thing is impressive it's fucking weird man it's uh 500 only five it came out with 500 because the company that made the laser went out of business um i have the info here i think it was called light l-y-t-e yeah so the topper was like a laser like a little box that shot a laser out so 80s i know cool see right and we always talk about how we don't really care about toppers that's a cool topper it just is so on the pinball database they said uh the manufacturer of flyer shows a trapezoidal backbox topper with a spinning red led board to create an optical effect joe cam and cow told us that the light itself came in a square black box approximately 12 by 12 inches made by a now defunct company called light right on drew uh data east added a custom trapezoidal housing around it for mounting on the backbox using screws blah blah blah blah blah so long story short there was probably about 500 of these um that came with this topper but i was looking at it dude it looks straight up 80s awesome laser topper so if you guys have one of those toppers that is awesome that is awesome i'm just gonna say that's awesome and i'm willing to bet that probably isn't cheap no i mean you know the game itself i saw a few for sale and people it's it's well received though i think this game's pretty cool so let's let's kind of let's go back a little bit so who designed it joe kamikow and there is a story regarding gary stern he was in he was involved in getting this game out to market do we know what his position was at the company at that time no he was like but i know they didn't they buy out that is yeah that east so gary stern did have his little fingers in this game um so who programmed it we got alani d rap and richard ditton and who did the art kevin o'connor that fucker's been around forever also margaret hudson a couple of that group he just mentioned they did a lot of the data east stuff okay so yep and you'll know this name uh who did the sound david thiel still killing it man yep i'm sure he loved having 2.1 surround sound on this one huh you know as a sound guy that probably was like you know he's just nerding out about it because it was always mono, mono, mono, and just all this stuff. And he's like, oh, now I can do all these cool different things. Yeah. That's awesome. That is fucking cool. So one of the fun things, it was also on the pinball database, is Joe Kamikow explained at the Chicago Expo in 2012 that he and Gary Stern made the game using parts from an old Williams 1986 Road Kings and that it was designed on Thanksgiving Day 1986. So Road Kings, one of our favorite games. Yeah, it's an awesome game. Awesome game. A lot of the parts. Yeah. Wow. A lot of the parts came from that game. Now that I'm looking at it, I can kind of see it. You got the ramp and the, yeah. So I was watching a lot of the gameplay on TNT. Thank you again, TNT Amusements on YouTube. Check them out. Todd Tuckey, my man, was going through some of the rules and stuff. Very interesting layout. They have basically color-coded. You have the red side, there's a blue side, and there's a yellow side, if I'm not mistaken. They're stand-up targets. You knock down all the color stand-up targets. That will fire or that will open up this ion cannon, which is on the left. Not just any cannon, an ion cannon. And that's a total ripoff of Star Wars. It has to be. Empire Strikes Back came out right around then, right? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Wow, that was 83. This is 80. Empire Strikes Back was 83? No, it's 80. Sorry. Empire Strikes Back? Yeah, it was 77, 80, and 83. Okay. Well, yeah, prepare the ion cannon. Remember Hoth, Battle of Hoth? They had the ion cannon. They're making a game seven years later called Laser War. They're like, oh, Star Wars. You know we're putting Star Wars references. So the ion cannon lights up, right, and it's shooting, and you've got to hit the little, there's like a little ramp that goes around this ion cannon. You hit this ramp. Drew, I am telling you right now, if you have not seen what happens, you guys need to go on YouTube and check it out because the light show on this game from 1987 blew my fucking mind. The whole game blows up because you blew up the ion cannon. I'm not even sure the storyline behind this. Sure, who knows. That was without a doubt one of the coolest things I saw. I was like, oh, shit, this is awesome. And that's all Todd Tucky had to do. He just did that one thing. He knew the light show was pretty badass. And then he was like, okay, games for sale. first come first serve so why do we think this game is only like a 1500 or 2000 game i mean that trans light is worth five grand to me that translate is so magical charlie sheen on it it's 80 is that charlie sheen it looks just like did you did you take a close look i took a close look it looks like any advertisement on that uh from that laser tag remember that laser tag company But I can't... Yeah, I guess I can zoom in a little bit. It looks like an 80s Charlie Sheen from... That's beautiful. It's fucking glorious. Give me some of the 80s movies. Oh, Wrath. Wraith. Wraith. Yeah. Charlie Sheen was in Wraith. He just... It looks just like him. It's crazy. I know, but Wraith is like a futuristic... He drives a futuristic car, and it's like 80s futuristic kind of stuff, like Laser Wars. I'm willing to bet they're like, hey, just draw it like that, make it enough so our lawyers say that you can do this without paying him. Back then, they really didn't care. I now learned quite a bit about Laser War. That's my homework assignment, Drew. How'd I do? You did good, man. Thanks. I learned stuff because, like I said, I only looked into it briefly. There was a couple guys selling them. I talked to a few of these guys online. I looked at all the ratings and stuff, but it looks like a cool game. and ladies out there ladies and gentlemen out there if uh joe cam and cow does contact me i will share you any updates for next week okay they'll be they'll be waiting but i will say this don't hold your fucking breath suck on that butthole so guys when you when you email us now you can uh you can email us your your pinball history see we keep adding all this stuff drink recipes dad jokes uh pinball history lessons yeah um we don't really have criteria right we'll just say it has to be at least 20 years old we're not gonna do a history lesson on something that's like relatively new yeah but yeah i mean something you guys want to learn a little bit more about or nothing in the top 100 and let's just say this also if you have any information on laser war yeah please send it in well if you're selling one please let me know we'll talk We'll talk about what kind of fun little things you know about the game. But right now the game looks pretty freaking cool. And you know, you were talking about, so this was 87. Yeah. F14 also came out in 87. Yeah. Right? And you were talking about the light show. The light show on F14 is like out of this world. Yeah. And you know, they didn't have RGB lighting. Yeah. They didn't have, you know how they do it? I'm going to tell you guys. Here's the secret. And they don't do this anymore. They're starting to come back to it. Like Jurassic Park is a good example. all the inserts, if you look at Laser War, it has a ton of inserts. And everyone knows F-14 has a shit ton of inserts. It's like one big fucking insert. Correct. I've seen it. Yeah, but the way they utilize them, and that's a big deal, because, yeah, like I say, you didn't have the RGB, so you had to use those inserts, and they did it really well. I like inserts because, like I said, I don't care as much about what's going on on the screen. I want to see the shit on the play field. No, and that's a good point because even with Whitewater, whitewater whitewater doesn't have that many inserts but when you get the whitewater yeah when you get the whitewater multiball whitewater all the inserts like it like flows towards you all the light now that would be 10 times cooler if there was more inserts you know what i'm saying yeah it's a moment it's cool yes it could have been to a whole nother point but very still very well and and having all the inserts you know it generally gives you more to do in the game you know because sometimes you're like hey how do i how do i light all these up how do i do this well that's why it was so easy to explain rule sets back then on a card because really it's not going to tell you everything on the card but the inserts tell the story yeah like these three targets like these three targets do yeah in a way there's a reason why you know system 11s are so sought after because you know it's an overall easy game to understand because the game itself tells you how to play it so laser wars i this this is the part you miss laser wars uh card says light up all the targets shoot the ion cannon yep get pussy true that was the joke of the night way to go brother oh my god I'm just sitting here smiling if you have a laser war put that on your fucking card that's what you need to do that's perfect that's a poor man stamp right there print them off sell them, make a million dollars I'm hearing my wife in my head right now you're pretty proud of yourself right now aren't you Drew and the answer is yes, yes I am fuck yeah alright so that was history lesson guys I love it, good job Ian Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. He even gets a round of applause. I appreciate you. Good job, man. Love it. That was fun. That was a good segment. We've got to keep doing that for sure. What do we got next? I know we've got something special for you guys. So something else new. Ooh, this one's good. We've been talking about this for a few weeks. This one is close to our hearts. We call it our poor man's pinball tribe, our tribe. And you probably have heard us talk about it in the last few weeks because Drew and I have been working on this for the last month or so. It's been a long time coming. We needed to come up with a VIP tribe member list that I don know how to describe this help me out these are the people that um and we going to kind of go through a rundown of of how we the criteria to choose some of these people there's five pillars of excellence there you go we're going to get to that in just a moment but you know once again i want to stress that you know you guys are listeners out there, if you guys listen to us and you guys don't go to our Facebook page or you don't email us or whatever, that's fine. It is what it is. We don't email all the podcasts that we listen to even and all that stuff. But we want to recognize the people that have become kind of in our inner circle. Well, they've taken that extra step to help us grow. We want to just show our appreciation and gratitude that's all yeah that's it and uh we want to grow our tribe we would love you know all of our listeners to be part of the tribe and that's kind of what we're trying to do we're trying to encourage you from maybe not stalking so much and being a part of the community and being part of that tribe so because when we say we're like the everyman we are i mean if you meet us in real life this is like when we said this many times this is us yeah yeah yeah so We can be friends. We can hang out on Facebook, text, whatever. It's fun. We enjoy it. What I think will be cool is, and Drew and I are going to work on some stuff, but once we get the tribe to where we want to be and everything, it will make things like going to shows even better because we can have little tribe powwows. We can go out to the bar with some of our fans so we can buy a few drinks, hang out with our listeners. the biggest audience but we will have the loudest and absolutely that's our goal that is truly our goal we're not trying to be the biggest podcast you know we are going to win the trippy this year but you know that's another thing but uh what's that category drew what's the category sloppiest on the internet we're gonna do the tribe um so how do you become a tribe member let's talk about that five pillars of excellence there's the five pillars of excellence but you got to say it like that the five pillars of excellence five pillars here we go what are they five pillars all right so first one easy like us on facebook super simple just like us second one communicate regularly now that one could be email that could be message on facebook that could just be responding to our stupid Facebook posts. Just communicate with us so we see your name, we recognize you, and we can have a good conversation. Third. Pinside as well. You forgot about that one. And Pinside. Third pillar of excellence is help us grow our podcast. Now that might seem like a daunting task, but you know what? We're pretty simple men. It doesn't really matter. All it takes is email us a couple drink recipes or a few dad jokes. that kind of thing yeah help us grow yeah if you have friends that are in the hobby and you know a lot of people say well my friends don't listen to podcasts or whatever that's fine just say hey check these guys out whatever yeah recommend us yeah help us out pillar number four and pillar number five totally top secret only between you and i secrets secrets so think about it but no Five pillars of excellence. It's very important. It's important to Drew and I. We're not asking for any money. Nope. And what happens, Drew, when they become a tribe member? They're going to get swag sent to their house. We're going to get some swag. We're going to send some shit, some free shit. Everyone loves free shit, right? Free shit to, one, just say thank you, and two, just to share our appreciation. And in poor man's style, it'll probably be somewhat drink-related. We love you all. And we're not 100% sure yet because we're still working out some of the stuff, but some of the swag will be exclusive just to tribe members. Absolutely. We're not giving this out to anyone else. No, no. It's not going to be like the silver ball swag stuff. You can buy that, whatever. That's great. But some of this will be exclusive, so when you have it, people will say, wow, you're part of the poor man's tribe. Absolutely. And we're proud of that. Yes. So it's going to be a good time. So the poor man tribe. All right. It has officially begun. All right. Here we go. Should we do it? Should we do it? All right. For the very first tribe member, it's got to be Ryan Kuiper. Ryan, TurboGrafx. You have made it. Ryan Kuiper, we love you, Ryan. You are the king. You have helped us out tremendously. You have been in our inner circle for a while, but not lately. We miss you. We miss you, Ryan. We miss you. But, you know, if it's not streaming, he's been on the podcast a ton. he's introduced us to a lot of great people Eric Pripke for one he's done a ton for us he has opened up our network and I'm not expecting everyone to be like that but he has to be the number one tribe member absolutely he's the original, he's the guy that he opened up some doors for us and we appreciate him and love him we love you Kuyper and we will be sending you some sway we have your address dude so don't worry so you don't have to send us your address So that's Ryan Kuyper, tribe member number one. Who's number two? Number two. Oh, by the way, guys, we're going to do two a week. Oh, yeah. We never even talked. We got so excited. We were. We're both smiling over here. There's two tribe members every week. So for the second tribe member of the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast is. And who's our number two, Drew? Martin, listener number 15, Mr. Zen Bone himself. Zen Bone. Martin, thank you so much. Now, Martin now has been just instrumental. I don't know if you've heard all of the new fun little things that he's been doing, audio for us. And he's done this out of his own free time. He's sent in some love letters via audio. And once again, you don't have to go that above and beyond to get to be a tribe member, but that's why these guys are number one and number two. Yes. So, Martin, thank you so much. We appreciate you so much. So appreciate it, sir. Martin, please email us your address, and we will send out some free swag. Plus, I still think I owe you a shirt. So give me your address, brother. So we love you, Martin. We love you, Kuyper. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys. Our first two official tribe members. So remember, guys, we're going to be doing this every week. Every week. We have a list. If you feel like you got left out, don't worry. You might be on our tribe list. Our list is 10 or 12 long to get started. We're moving along. Yep, but we wanted to do two at a time. We thought three would be too much, one probably not enough. We wanted to get two people and get them kind of recognized for being amazing listeners and contributors and all that great stuff. And for you guys who think you might have been left out and might be on the list, might not, try harder. Try harder. Just do it. Yeah. Suck on that butthole. So stupid. Oh, my God. It's awesome. But, you know, seriously, guys, thank you very much. Like us on Facebook and all that good stuff. What else? Is that it? Step up your game. Mailbag! Do we have any great mail this week? We do have a great mail. What do we got? We have our fantastic... You know what? Let's just do... I think we should do the one important email. Because this is another one that's in the running for the tribe member. Do you want to be 50% larger? No, it's not that one. Eddie! Malcolm! Alright, here we go. So, I can't make the text any bigger. Alright, so... He's literally squinting and looking at the camera. I lost my eyesight. I forgot to tell you that, Drew. Alright, so... Mailbag! Mailbag! Ian Hauer. We love ya. Rich fuck Ian. He's been emailing us since day one. We love you, Ian, so much. So we appreciate you. Hell of a pinball player. Hell of a guy. So he sent us a very good email, and we have to make sure that this gets read because it is a great cause and it's a great email. So here we go. Ian Hauer, here we go. I would like to formally request the quotation for a shill bill. Don't worry. The bill's on the way. To mention the Path of Play Road to 2000 campaign on an upcoming episode of the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. Watch this one right now. Reaching your tens of listeners. Fuck you, Ian. And it could change the lives of many families. So here's the Path of Play's mission. To empower families living with autism through the world of gaming. To create safe and inclusive spaces for everyone. and to provide individuals of all abilities with lasting outlet for positive social interaction. In the Road to 2000 campaign, every 250 supporters will fund expansion of the efforts into the new region, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Calgary, Edmonton, and Columbus. Head over to pathofplay.com for more information. So, pathofplay.com, Drew. No, that sounds like it's a worthy cause. I've heard of them a few times before. Ian Hauer, great job for Win Schilling for them and using our platform to shill. Your bill is coming. It's $100,000. Yeah, sorry. Rich fuck, Ian. Sorry, rich fuck. But no, seriously, pathofplay.com. Check it out. Everyone knows a family that's afflicted with someone with autism or something similar. So it sounds like a really worthy cause. Yeah, they'll be able to support over 5,000 families every year by hitting their goal. Very cool. So let's keep pushing that. We'll probably do that in next week's podcast as well because it's important. Right now they have 368 families supported and funds $28,000. That's awesome. This gives me all the feels. We're going to have to have a charity section now. Well, we will also share this on our page. Yep, for sure. And we'll push it out as long as we can. Yep. Rich fuck Ian, your bill is in the mail. Time to be less rich and give it to the poor men. pathofplay.com kids pathofplay.com let's uh let's uh show some generosity and push it as much as we can all right we do also have a few more emails so mailbag is kind of full let's let's we got one from john cosson let's let's knock out a couple here all right dr john himself dr john so just to preface this last week if you guys didn't hear the last couple of weeks i was talking about how much i was playing wonka and i'm like i don't understand this game it's awesome but i don't get the rules can someone explain it hello good men great work on the podcast nice to have some sloppy drunks to listen to and i'm all sober and exercising good job dr john yeah i'm proud of you doctor sort of like feeding my dirty ego and trying to be good have a wonka at home quick guide for playing because it's not that obvious i'm not going to read the whole thing he talks about gobstopper multiball is obvious you know that one i did actually know yeah you should you Kid Multiball, I kind of knew. Captive Ball. He goes into detail. I love it. Thank you, Dr. John, because I'm going to go play some more Wonka and use this. And at the end, there is more stuff, but this will get you started. Dr. John. He gave me a whole tutorial on the whole game. Thank you, Dr. John. Thank you, Dr. John. That's what I wanted because I watched a couple of the streams and I just didn't get it. I'm like, nope, shoot to flashing light. Just shoot it. So thank you very much for that. It's still fucking rubbish, I think. But it's still so much fun. I want to go. There's one locally here to play, but fuck, I work. And then I got the kid. So I'm trying to get out to the bowling alley to play it, but I got a job. I know. I got a J-O-B. It's like a mile from your house. I know. It's sad. It's so sad. It's right there. We'll get there, man. We'll make it. Anyone want to trade straight up Whitewater for Willie? I'll do it for a week. I don't even give a fuck. There you go. Yeah, just do it. Do a trade. Anyone has any Jersey Jackpins that just want to foster to me? I'm really reliable. Yeah, we're still working on that foster program. Yeah, no worries. All right. Thanks, John. Let's talk to, we got an email from Mr. Listener number 15 himself. Tribe member number two. Tribe member number two. Funny enough, I'm glad that he conceded because he was the guy when we did our top five list last week, the definitive top five by the way um i don't know why pin side hasn't changed it yet but we'll email robin and see what's going on with that but regardless um he was the guy that put in class of 1812 he did i don't know what he was thinking but you know what it's not a bad game well dr john put in harlem gilchrist so so i guess here's the thing all of our listeners we love you guys. It's fun. I love the eclectic mix. I love it. But you guys don't know what Top 5 Pinball is all about. We're the definitive list. We've discussed this. Yeah, everyone knows. Everyone knows the Top 5. That is cool. I love it, guys. So anyway, Zenbone himself, he sent us this email. Hey, poor man's team, I concede. Class of 1812 might not be Top 10 material. It might. Truth be told, I was racking my brain for an EM to get on the Top 5 list because I feel they are very underrated and that was the one to bump. You know what? I agree with him on that. Not necessarily that it has to be an EM but EM Love needs to be on that list. I appreciate it. I definitely appreciate it. I just struggle with that. Anyway, so, but I guess the fact that I could not find an EM for the top five speaks volumes. uh anyway while i do personally enjoy playing class of 1812 i will begrudgingly agree i totally whiffed on that one i wish i could blame alcohol or even alcohol would not have made that choice your fan and friend listen to number 15 yeah uh martin don't feel so bad don't be so hard on yourself brother um i've been on air talking about how great oktoberfest is for how long now yeah yeah i'm surprised you didn't put that in your top five um i will say also that um funny enough i don't know if you caught it but our good pal ryan kuiper he him and dave Jeff Brenner just streamed class of 1812 i saw that so if you want to go look and see some 1812 action oh my god it was so funny because they were playing that game and that game is half like chicken noises clucking away you know at the overture of 1812 and and i think like it It was the week after that, Dave Jeff Brenner was talking about how his wife was like, what game were you playing last night? All I heard was chicken noises. So, funny shit. But I digress. I get it. EMs should make the top five, but they just won't. No, they won't. And EMs, they have their own section. I think the EMs, maybe we do an EM top five. Sure, sure. I'd have to get Dave Jeff Brenner on here. Yes, we definitely need Dave on here for some of that older stuff. And Kuyper. Yep. They're the experts. But the biggest problem with the EMs are there's not as much fantastical stuff going on in the play field. You know, it's more about the art and, you know, because all the sounds are almost identical. I mean, just they only had X number of sounds to work with at the time. So regardless, we will, next top five list, try to get Dave and Kuyper in and we'll hammer out those EMs, kids. We'll get Kuyper out of his cave before his next baby is born Oh god yeah that's right I keep forgetting February God bless him Kuyper we need you before the end of the year man Alright Get in here Alright so let's wrap it What do you think Drew? We good? Let's do it Hour 05 man we did alright We did good We did awesome There's so much There's so much There's always so much I know We can talk all day We can But unfortunately this time has ended I'm sorry everybody Cause you know now unfortunately all these uh if more people are gonna be messaged messaging us on facebook we're starting to get quite a few now yes we're getting a lot of like traffic and traction which is cool yeah it's fun to play it is it's fun to play with the kids yeah fuck yeah dude every week like i'm at work and i'm just like you know and i'm a kid myself i'm not calling you all kids we're all kids yeah we are we're talking about pinball it's kids playing with kids baby that's what i love about anyone under the age of 18 listening to us? Mentally? No. Wait, is there anyone under the age of 40 listening to us? Anyway, we love you all, and thank you so much for tuning in. Email us at thepoormanspinball at gmail.com or like us on the Poor Man's Pinball podcast. Facebook page. I love it. Perfect. Hey, we did awesome. Good job, Ian. I'm proud of you. You know what? I think I'm going to pee in my 15-ounce mug. I love it. Yeah, the bladder is full. 15 ounces in, 15 ounces out. It's perfect. 100% efficiency. Bye, guys. Thanks, guys.

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 1d317080-1674-46b4-b4c5-40eeab1e7e8b*