# Episode 100: Roger Sharpe **Source:** Pinball Profile **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2018-01-06 **Duration:** 31m 7s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.pinballprofile.com/episode-100-roger-sharpe/ --- ## Analysis Roger Sharpe, the legendary figure who proved pinball is a game of skill in 1976, appears on Pinball Profile's 100th episode to discuss his life, legacy, and philosophy on the pinball industry. He reflects on his role as a historical footnote, his sons Josh and Zach's careers in pinball (including Zach's position as head of marketing at Stern), his design philosophy emphasizing playfield geometry and keeping games 'alive,' and his concerns about industry negativity, operator support, and the need for technical infrastructure to sustain location-based pinball. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Roger Sharpe designed Barracora and Cyclops, emphasizing playfield geometry and keeping entire playfields alive through scoring mechanics — _Roger discusses Barracora's super X value mechanic turning three top lanes into six lanes, and mentions Josh and Zach naming Cyclops as their favorite machine due to its ruleset_ - [HIGH] Zach Sharp is currently head of marketing at Stern Pinball and number one in IFPA world rankings — _Roger states: 'to see not only Zachary being named as the head of marketing at Stern' and 'number one in the world currently in the rankings'_ - [HIGH] The lack of technical support infrastructure and on-site technicians is the greatest barrier to bringing pinball back to commercial locations — _Roger: 'I think that that is the greatest hurdle and stumbling block for, we'll call it coin-operated amusement games in general, to thrive'_ - [HIGH] Roger created PAPA (Professional and Amateur Pinball Association) with Steve Epstein after witnessing a fairness problem at the 1976 Valley Super Shooter Finals — _Roger explains Ken Lunsford won on one extra shot despite Joe Grillo playing better, prompting him to develop a scoring system over three years_ - [HIGH] Roger deliberately did not compete in tournaments during his prime to maintain the purity of his enjoyment of pinball — _Roger states: 'I didn't want it to be something where somehow I was not viewing pinball for the sake of just the pleasure of playing'_ - [HIGH] Growing up in Chicago during the pinball ban and limited exposure to pinball was formative to Roger's later contributions to the industry — _Roger: 'if I had grown up in a normal environment...we probably, number one, would not be on this call'_ - [HIGH] Commercial pinball manufacturers prioritize collector and enthusiast markets over commercial operators — _Roger: 'commercial sales has not been necessarily the target for the majority of activities...It's really still the collector and the enthusiast'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I tend to think that people think of me more as being the father of Josh and Zach rather than any of the other things, and I view myself more as a historical footnote." > — **Roger Sharpe**, early in episode > _Sets humble tone; reflects on how identity is shaped by family legacy in pinball community_ > "I just wish that people would be more supportive of, I'll call it the industry rather than the hobby, to understand that by being negative, you don't accomplish anything." > — **Roger Sharpe**, middle section > _Core criticism of online negativity affecting manufacturer morale and industry growth_ > "The greatest hurdle and stumbling block for coin-operated amusement games in general to thrive is technicians on site, people who could maintain equipment and have an understanding of how a game is functioning." > — **Roger Sharpe**, latter half > _Identifies root cause of location-based pinball decline; emphasizes infrastructure gap_ > "I always wanted there to be a purity to their view and appreciation of pinball that went above and beyond, can I beat this person or whatever else." > — **Roger Sharpe**, later section > _Explains philosophy behind preventing young sons from competing; values enjoyment over performance pressure_ > "When people ask, 'so what did you think of that?' I say, 'I just played it a couple of times. Don't know the rules. I don't care at this point. I'm playing it as if it is a colored, finished white wood.'" > — **Roger Sharpe**, near end > _Reveals design-focused play philosophy centered on geometry rather than rules optimization_ > "If anybody follows professional sports of any type, guess what? Sometimes the conditions aren't great... We don't necessarily find those athletes commenting on it beforehand." > — **Roger Sharpe**, middle-latter section > _Defense of tournament conditions and critique of player complaints_ > "I grew up pinball ignorant. And then look what happens." > — **Roger Sharpe**, middle section > _Summarizes how deprivation led to his transformative role in legitimizing pinball_ > "In some ways, you wind up missing the inherent beauty of any given game, because you're really only looking at various parts of it." > — **Roger Sharpe**, near end > _Laments modern competitive strategy of targeting high-value shots over holistic gameplay appreciation_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Roger Sharpe | person | Legendary pinball figure, designer of Barracora and Cyclops, creator of PAPA, famous for 1976 testimony establishing pinball as game of skill, father of Josh and Zach Sharp | | Josh Sharp | person | Son of Roger Sharpe, works at Roth Thrills, competitive pinball player and tournament organizer | | Zach Sharp | person | Son of Roger Sharpe, head of marketing at Stern Pinball, ranked number one in IFPA world rankings, competitive pinball player | | Jeff Teolis | person | Host of Pinball Profile podcast, interviewer for this 100th episode special | | Barracora | game | Classic pinball machine designed by Roger Sharpe, praised for super X value mechanic and playfield that stays alive throughout play | | Cyclops | game | Pinball machine designed by Roger Sharpe, cited as favorite game by Josh and Zach Sharp due to innovative ruleset | | PAPA | organization | Professional and Amateur Pinball Association, created by Roger Sharpe and Steve Epstein in 1976, now part of Stern Pro Circuit | | Steve Epstein | person | Co-founder of PAPA with Roger Sharpe; worked with him on early pinball scoring system development | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; Zach Sharp works as head of marketing | | Williams | company | Historic pinball manufacturer where Roger Sharpe worked as head of marketing starting in 1988 | | Ken Lunsford | person | Won 1976 Valley Super Shooter Finals tournament, prompting Roger Sharpe to develop PAPA scoring system | | Joe Grillo | person | Competitor at 1976 Valley Super Shooter Finals who played better than Ken Lunsford but lost on one extra shot | | Lionel Martinez | person | Friend of Roger Sharpe (now deceased) who helped develop early PAPA scoring system | | Broadway Arcade | organization | New York arcade where Roger Sharpe and early PAPA members tested scoring system on thousands of games | | Roth Thrills | company | Company where Josh Sharp works; related to coin-operated amusement games industry | | Dave & Buster's | organization | Entertainment venue in Chicago northwest suburbs that used to host pinball test machines but no longer operates pinball | | Valley Super Shooter Finals | event | 1976 tournament in Chicago that prompted Roger Sharpe to create PAPA due to fairness concerns | | Pinball Profile | organization | Long-running podcast series hosted by Jeff Teolis; this is the 100th episode | | Sharpshooter | game | Pinball machine designed by Roger Sharpe; he discussed not wanting Game Plan to flip the playfield from its original design | | Andromeda | game | Classic pinball game with similar playfield architecture to Coney Island, mentioned in conversation about shot geometry | ### Topics - **Primary:** Roger Sharpe's design philosophy and playfield geometry, PAPA (Professional Amateur Pinball Association) creation and evolution, Josh and Zach Sharp's careers and pinball industry involvement, Industry negativity and criticism on forums/in community, Operator support and technical infrastructure as barrier to location pinball growth - **Secondary:** Modern competitive pinball strategy vs. appreciation for game design, Tournament structure and player complaints, Pinball history and the Chicago ban era ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.72) — Predominantly positive reflection on personal legacy, sons' accomplishments, and love for pinball design; tempered by criticism of industry negativity, operator support gaps, and concerns about competitive play overshadowing game appreciation. Humorous jabs at Zach Sharp's alleged sucker punch (taken in jest) and self-deprecating humor keep tone light despite serious concerns. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Lack of technical support infrastructure and on-site technicians is identified as the primary barrier preventing pinball expansion in commercial locations like bars, bowling alleys, and entertainment venues (confidence: high) — Roger: 'the greatest hurdle and stumbling block for...coin-operated amusement games...is technicians on site, people who could maintain equipment...That is the greatest barrier' - **[sentiment_shift]** Roger criticizes excessive player complaints about tournament conditions and game selection, noting conditions are same for all players and advocating for acceptance of tournament variance (confidence: high) — Roger: 'there always seems to be any number of people...complaining about how the tournament has been structured...There's no right or wrong way to do a tournament' - **[sentiment_shift]** Roger Sharpe expresses concern that excessive online negativity and harsh criticism toward designers, programmers, and artists is damaging to the pinball industry and manufacturer morale (confidence: high) — Roger: 'I find it somewhat an oddity...some of the criticisms that go on out there...are incredibly more ruthless than they need to be...I just wish that people would be more supportive of, I'll call it the industry' - **[design_philosophy]** Roger contrasts modern competitive pinball's strategy-focused approach (targeting high-value shots) with his philosophy of appreciating complete playfield design and geometry, concerned that optimization overshadows game beauty (confidence: high) — Roger: 'in some ways, it's evolved into tearing games into pieces and parts rather than looking at the totality...you wind up missing the inherent beauty of any given game' - **[market_signal]** Roger identifies that major entertainment venues (Dave & Buster's, Fort Lauderdale entertainment complex) explicitly do not operate pinball machines despite historical presence, indicating operator prioritization of other attractions over pinball revenue (confidence: high) — Roger calls out Dave & Buster's Chicago location formerly a primary test location but now operates no pinball: 'they do not run pinball machines. And that's a shame' - **[community_signal]** Roger Sharpe deliberately avoided competitive tournament play during his prime to maintain pure enjoyment of pinball, and similarly discouraged his sons from early tournament participation to foster appreciation over performance pressure (confidence: high) — Roger: 'I always wanted there to be a purity to their view...I did not want them to compete...I wanted them just to enjoy pinball' - **[personnel_signal]** Zach Sharp's role as Stern Pinball head of marketing is positioned by Roger as continuation of his own legacy at Williams (where he was head of marketing starting 1988), representing family involvement across generations (confidence: high) — Roger: 'it's kind of interesting to see...that next generation...embracing the world of coin-operated amusement games...and Zachary in particular, to have the opportunity to have an impact...in the world of pinball' - **[business_signal]** Roger notes manufacturers and distributors lack proactive engagement with commercial operator support, technical schools, and maintenance infrastructure that historically sustained location-based pinball (confidence: high) — Roger: 'I wish that...manufacturers themselves...would try to do something with service schools, technical support...the way that things used to be done' --- ## Transcript It's time for a special 100th Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teolas. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com, and please subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play. He is an author, a designer, a legend, and it's a special treat to be talking to Roger Sharp. Hi, Roger. How are you doing? I am fine. I don't know about that buildup, but thank you. I tend to think that people think of me more as being the father of Josh and Zach rather than any of the other things, and I view myself more as a historical footnote. But thank you. We will get to Josh and Zach in a little bit, but right now it's time to praise you for the things you've done. Every time you see the words game of skill, you have to think of Roger Sharp, and definitely for some of us it is a game of skill. I want to know kind of what's the latest with you because I didn't see it at Pemburg. I know you're at Expo. So what's up with Roger? I know the boys had kind of talked me into celebrating my birthday, which happens to fall on the 1st of August, a couple of years ago, to go out to replay FX. And I did so and actually performed beyond my expectations, I think surprising both boys as well, and decided, okay, fine, when they asked again, you want to go back? And it's like, well, sure, it gives me a chance to spend some time with them, which we invariably don't really have an opportunity to do. And I figured, what the heck, and went back. And it's just, you know, you get to a certain point in life, or at least I have, where it becomes a challenge. I mean, I don't mind the marathon aspect. I mean, it's something that I believed in way back when, when I started coming up with ideas and concepts for tournaments and pinball leagues and so on. But I decided this past year to kind of take a pass. And I said, well, I'm not ruling it out, but it kind of wears a little bit thin. I'm not as young as I used to be, and it's tough to go through the grind. So I tend to compete, I guess, closer to home, if you will. I know that tomorrow night we have Level 257, which is a selfie league, and that's just outside of Chicago. So Pinball Expo being in the Chicagoland area makes it easier for me to go to. so yeah, maybe next year we'll see Fingers crossed, but yeah you're definitely still showing up at a few shows, you're at Southern Fried Gaming as well and you mentioned Expo are shows still something that you enjoy going to? I do and I'm very much humbled and flattered when invitations are sent my way saying come on down we'd love to have you and love to hear you speak and those opportunities And, yes, there have been a number over the years, both domestically here as well as overseas, that I have ventured out to. And it's nice. I mean, I don't get tired of it. I often wonder if people get tired of hearing stories that I can share. But it's gratifying to somehow show an interest in hearing from me, I guess. But also, too, it's different generations. I mean, you've been doing this for so long now, and the shot was back in 76, and that's carried so much weight. Yeah, actually, back before I was born. I can't believe that that shot was done then, but yes. Exactly. But now new generations, as we see these younger players come in and trying to learn a little bit about the history of pinball, they're seeing some of the older games in competition and want to find out more about those. It's just not all about the new LCDs and the DMDs. It's about the history, too. So it's great that we can, at shows or on podcasts like this, hear from some of the legends and how we got to where we are right now. No, and truthfully, and it is, you know, again, something that I have found to be not only personally satisfying, but also to the extent that you just mentioned, exposing a variety of players, both young and old, who maybe have not encountered games from a particular era. And it's great to see that. Truthfully, it's where I tend to thrive only because of the level of familiarity that I have with games from 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. I think that within that context, it almost levels the playing field, but the style of play has changed for competitive pinball as compared to where it used to be when some of those years were brand new, right out of the box. and just the approach, the methodology, the strategy of what you needed to do to accomplish particular objectives. All of that has gone through, I think, a metamorphosis of sorts. But again, it's nice that all of that is emerging, I will say as a byproduct, to the point of many young people who may not know the history and potentially have some level of curiosity. and I joked before, but I will absolutely share with you something that occurred a couple of pinball expos ago as I was standing watching the boys play and this woman came over to me and she said, oh, you're the father of Josh and Zach? I said, yeah. And she said, so you must be really proud of them. And I was like, absolutely. And she said, so do you do anything with pinball at all? And I said, no, not at all. I'm just here just watching my boys. So, you know, in some ways, I guess that notoriety only goes so far. But as long as I'm still able and people are still interested, yeah, I'm around. I don't want to get to the point where it's like watching the Academy Awards show and suddenly you see some actor or actress being brought out in a wheelchair to give an award. It's like, no, no, no, no. And you wind up sitting back at home watching on TV saying, oh, my God, can you believe what they look like? geez, I remember when they were so young and stuff. I think they'll become a point in time where that picture in the closet of Dorian Gray is going to probably take over from what reality might be externally. Just lay off the Botox and plastic surgery. You'll be fine. Yeah, no, definitely. It's got to be great for you as a former marketing director of Williams to see your son, Zach, now doing that with Stern. It is absolutely remarkable. You know, in growing up and whatever ambitions that I had personally, truthfully, you know, pinball was not part of that list of goals. And, you know, the legacy that I've always thought were my sons, and to see not only Zachary being named as the head of marketing at Stern, but also Josh being at Roth Thrills, it's kind of interesting to see, in quotes, that next generation, I won't say going into the family business, but at least embracing the world of coin-operated amusement games, and with Zachary in particular, to have the opportunity to have an impact, truthfully, in the world of pinball, and not only where it is today, but where it is going in the future, above and beyond his incredible skill set as a competitor, and I guess number one in the world currently in the rankings, Yeah, I guess it's deja vu all over again for me in looking at it, just based on when I started at Williams as the head of marketing back in 1988. So we'll see what he's able to do. But again, I'm incredibly proud of both of them, and there's only wonderful things ahead for them. Zach definitely is a fine player but I do question sometimes his character and I guess I have to talk to his parent about that There was a tournament at the Buffalo Pinball Summer Open where he felt a little stressed out and he gave me a sucker punch. I have it on video. There's still shots of it. Legal is still pending. What kind of son did you raise there to take a poor shot at a Canadian just trying to visit your fine country? God, I don't know. Something must have snapped. It's so out of character for any sharp to do anything like that short of the voluminous vocabulary of my mouth, which leads me bleeding from my eardrum. Zachary to be physical. Can you ground him? Not only ground him, I'll have to spank him. Yeah, if you wouldn't mind, because it was embarrassing, you know, and the stride I've had over it. I've done nothing but be nice to the entire Sharp family my whole life, my whole pinball career, And to be blatantly attacked by Zach, it hurts on a deeper level. But anyway... Hearing that from you, I think that if there are any legal proceedings, please call me in to testify against him. Oh! And just make sure that he gets the absolute mandatory sentence and penalties imposed for being physically aggressive in this day and age especially. Hold on a second. I'm just emailing my lawyer this copy of this broadcast. Okay, perfect. Excellent. I actually do get back at Zach every now and then because whenever I have to play him or Josh, I pray, fingers crossed, it's Cyclops. And then I just point to his half-naked mother on the back glass and seem to throw him off a little bit. Thank God for that. You know what? And it's interesting when you mention that game. I was totally dumbfounded during some interview or whatever. And again, it goes back a few years ago when the boys were asked what their favorite pinball machine was. And they mentioned it was Cyclops. And I remember going up to him after I heard it and I was like, really? Or are you just saying that to make me feel it? No, no. We love it and the rules set for its time and on and on. And it was like, that actually really meant a lot to me, I have to admit. And very appreciative. And the fact that it's now showing up, I guess, in more tournaments, despite the limited number of machines that were produced, it's kind of cool to get other people's reaction to it. and an understanding as to what the basic rule set was. And I guess my approach to game design, not only geometrically, but also in regard to game objectives. I know geometry of games was always key for you as a designer and looking at games right now. It's funny because I play a game like Coney Island, and if you miss a certain shot, instant brick, it's going out the outlanes. That's a great shot, but you have to make the shots perfectly on a game like that. Yeah, and it was one that I actually did not want game plan to do. I just thought it was not necessary to do a flip of the play field from sharpshooter, but they went ahead with it anyway. And I tend to agree that some of the shots, just from the standpoint of the geometry, were better suited from left flipper to the right area, right flipper to the left area, as opposed to the reverse. I didn't know that. But it is in some ways, it has some of the same architecture, if you will, as Andromeda. I just had Barry Ouser on Pinball Profile, and I told him, and I'm telling you, I love, love, love Baracora for so many reasons. And one of them is that, you know, for that kind of era, it's kind of deep. Yep. I always believed that I never liked games that kind of topped out. You know, you have to appreciate I go back to a time where there was really no score-to-date table, putting in your initials. It was a question of tilting out when you got to 9, 9, 9, 8, and change before it scored and topped out over and you're starting again at zeros. So at least you could have the high score flashing. But, you know, when particular targets or areas became dead, it wasn't anything that was appealing to me. So when I did have the chance, Sharpshooter as an exception only because of the limitations of the software capabilities as to what I wanted to do. But with Barracora, yeah, I mean, it was the ability to actually come up with, all right, a super X value, if you will, to turn the top three lanes into actually six lanes. And to really do something where hopefully the entire play field was still alive. There was still a reason for doing whatever you were doing. Let's jump back a little bit because being in Chicago, you didn't get to play, even though the games were made there, you didn't get to play in Chicago because of the ban, and you went to University of Wisconsin, got to play there after college, went to New York City, and no arcades there, although I do get a kick out of it that you just happened to go into an adult bookstore, and they just happened to have, behind the peep shows, they had a pinball machine, and then the next time you went there, the machines are out getting trashed. The peep show is still going on. That was fine, but the machines were gone, and that's obviously what led us to the famous shot. Right. And more importantly, and I have mentioned this in the past, if I had grown up in a normal environment, in a normal environment from a pinball standpoint, where pinball had been around, then we probably, number one, would not be on this call. The boys might be doing something different in their eyes as I would have as well. You know, all of the circumstances I find incredibly fascinating as I look back on my life. Because of that situation in Chicago growing up without pinball, some infrequent times of being able to play it elsewhere, going to college and having pinball around in almost a major or at least a second major in terms of what I was matriculating with, and then going to New York and not having pinball and the desire on my part to get my own pinball machine. That was purely the self-serving motivation behind everything that wound up unfolding, from the feature in GQ and the New York Times, working on my pinball book, being called to testify, the shot, and so on. So when you go back to the early beginnings, it was only because I grew up, and I can't call it pinball deprived, I grew up pinball ignorant. And then look what happens. You go and create PAPA with Steve Epstein, and that has grown into just this beast that is now part of the Stern Pro Circuit that we're going to be seeing in 2018. Yep. And I think that what's interesting, again, I think, I don't know, and maybe I've never thought of it this way before until this call right now, but everything almost seems to have been reactive, if you will, in regard to some of the career choices and things that I've done. as I recounted before, pinball just in general. But the whole purpose of Poppo was I had come out to Chicago for the Valley Super Shooter Finals, and had kind of overseen that. This is, what, 1977, I think? 1976, maybe, whatever the fall time frame was at the Playboy Towers in downtown Chicago. And I won't say the wrong player won. I think the player that won, that was Ken Lunsford, out of Plains, Georgia, of all places, who walked away with a 280 Datsun Z, as well as a whole handful of other prizes. Joe Grillo, and whether or not these guys are even still alive or still remember, played better over the course of that weekend than I really thought that he should have won. And going back to New York I thought about it and said you know what there has to be a scoring system there has to be some something Only because on eight ball God I still remember all of this which is even more frightening But on eight ball, Ken Lunsford made one extra shot to get the 5X and won on a game for that one shot. Although Joe Grillo had played better throughout and even the head-to-head competition, the net result was cornering both Steve Epstein as well as a dear now departed friend Lionel Martinez to say alright guys we're going to start playing all these pinball machines of the Broadway Arcade I'm going to tabulate stuff by hand because I'm a lunatic and over a period of about three years and literally thousands upon thousands of games I worked out a scoring system and thought alright there's something here and maybe we can do some leagues and maybe we can do some tournaments. And obviously the Papa tournament started, and we started the leagues not only in New York but also a couple of places in New Jersey just to kind of work it all out. And, yeah, Papa was born. I've heard Josh tell me the story of when your wife used to have to handwrite all these scores from the first ever events and just the chaos that once was. I mean, thank goodness we've got the software now and things can move a lot faster and we can get a lot more pinball in and a lot more players playing. I'm wondering, what are some of the criticisms you hear, whether it's the forums or just from people at the shows or in general, about games, about pinball players that drive you nuts? What are some of the criticisms that you think we can do without? God, it's interesting because I really don't follow. I hate to say this, but I don't follow the forums and things. It's only when either Josh or Zach will say, what did you say? What did you do? It's like, huh, what? Go here, here. I'll send you the link. Take a look. It's like, huh? I don't know where that came from. Oh, my God. So, again, I think from what I do here and what I do encounter, I guess the foremost one, and maybe it does go back a number of years when Stern Pinball was literally the only game in town, and now we have a number of other companies, if you will, with people always grousing and complaining about the games. And I understood whether it was quality issues or unfinished software or whatever else, but it's almost from the standpoint of, do you ever want them to succeed? I mean, give them a break. You know, let's see if things can be better. And I find it somewhat an oddity in light of the fact that, you know, pinball is such a tenuous type of product. And I think some of the criticisms that go on out there, and some of them being incredibly more ruthless than they need to be, whether it's pointed at particularly designers or programmers or artists or anything else, I just wish that people would be more supportive of, I'll call it the industry rather than the hobby, to understand that by being negative, you don't accomplish anything. By being negative in a constructive way, that maybe that is better rather than just blasting on somebody just to have your voice heard as a way to, I don't know, bring attention to yourself as opposed to bringing attention to maybe what the issues might be. So that is something that I find, and it's not just annoying, I find it really disappointing. Yeah, it hurts the industry. Yeah, I think so. So that's one of them. I think the other part to answer your question, when it comes to competitions and such, there always seems to be any number of people or individuals who are always complaining and bitching and moaning about how the tournament has been structured, how the games are set up, what the games are. Oh, my God. And it's like, just take it on face value for what it is. And there's no, again, this is my opinion, there's no right or wrong way to do a tournament. There really isn't. I mean, whatever that rule set is, and whether it conforms to IFPA guidelines or PAPA or whatever, you should be able to do anything the way that you want to do it and not have people blast you for the fact that, oh, the tournament was terrible, they only allowed us to play five times or four times or once, or the three games there, they had lights out and they had this and they had that. You know, all the conditions tend to be the same for everyone. When you walk in, no one is holding you captive where you have to play. You know, if anybody follows professional sports of any type, guess what? Sometimes the conditions aren't great. Sometimes you find yourself playing, you know, baseball in the rain. Oh, my God. or tennis in less than wonderful conditions. And we don't necessarily find those athletes, at least beforehand, commenting on it, other than years ago in Soldier Field in Chicago where the turf was terrible and Air Bear was just screwing up their legs. And, yeah, there was major issues within the football community. But I guess what I'm suggesting to you is that those are the things that I have found get a bit more airtime, if you will, then it's probably warrant. I don't know if you agree. I do. Or if you've heard other things that maybe I've forgotten or didn't know about. Roger, I totally agree. I always go out of my way to thank the volunteers who make the tournament possible. Definitely the TDs. If I don't play well, it's on me, not the games, because it's the same game for everyone else. And yes, things happen. It's just, quote-unquote, pinball. You know, something might have happened, but there are rules. that are the same for everyone else. So thank you to the TDs for putting on these tournaments, for getting the games there, for making pinball and everyone come to this event. So I would rather hear that than, you know, some of the players like, oh, I'll never win a major, or oh, my brother's better, or oh, how did Colin beat me at Pinburgh? You know, those kind of complaints I think we can do without. I agree. I'm kidding. Josh is a wonderful guy. Although, Roger, I will say this in all sincerity, in a different parallel universe, I'm glad you were the sharp that had to make the shot as opposed to one Joshua. But that's just a sidebar. I hear what you're saying. And whether or not they could have done it back then, I don't know. I mean, back then, I would have matched them head for head and would have just destroyed them. Did I just say that on air? Yeah, yeah, take that voice. I'm on your side, Roger, all on your side. I did hear you say one of the biggest problems for operators and games that just makes logical sense, really the technicians and how the games are made. Because whether it's new games, whether it's old games, no one wants to go up to a game that maybe a flipper's not working or the plunger's not working or whatever the case may be. It's down. It doesn't help operators because they don't want to be technicians. They just want the games to be running, making money, and collectors don't want to spend a lot of time. So hopefully that's something we can work on. But I did hear you say that that was one of the biggest concerns. Oh, yeah. Look, we unfortunately are in an era where commercial operation or commercial sales, I don't believe, and again, this is my feeling, and hopefully and maybe it's going to be changing now with enough spring of mine more directly involved in the ongoing business activities of a particular company. I have felt for a long period of time that commercial sales has not been necessarily the target for the majority of activities that are going on. It's really still the collector and the enthusiast and so on. And I think the biggest barrier, truthfully, for bringing back pinball isn't waiting for all the barcades to continue to open and expand. It's to create markets. It's to support those markets. But having said that what doesn exist today and it did exist years ago were technicians on site people who could maintain equipment clean equipment and have an understanding basically of how a game is functioning so that it can be repaired. And I think that that is the greatest hurdle and stumbling block for, we'll call it coin-operated amusement games in general, to thrive, and more specifically, pinball machines. There's a number of locations that I'm familiar with where you walk in and they don't operate pinball. It's like, seriously? I mean, I'll call one out right now, Dave & Buster's. The Dave & Buster's outside of Chicago in the northwest suburbs used to be one of the primary test locations not only for Williams Valley back in the day, but also Data East and Gottlieb. That was our spot. and they do not run pinball machines. And that's a shame because of the audience being the primary and perfect target for what pinball is all about. I can understand square footage and generating revenue to validate that square footage on each and every machine, but I also feel that if you're not providing the broadest array of entertainment options, then you're missing something. I think of another location that's out in Fort Lauderdale that has gotten a great deal of publicity, not only in Florida specifically, but also in some of the coin-operated trade publications. They don't have pinball machines. It's like, really? Here it is, a state-of-the-art place. They have indoor go-karts and all sorts of other wonderful attractions, but not any pinball machines. I find that, again, just kind of staggering and wish that that wasn't the case and that coin-operated amusement game distributors would be more proactive, that the manufacturers themselves, whatever limitation and actual numbers there are, would try to do something with service schools, technical support and such, the way that things used to be done. So that's a challenge, and it's not an easy solution to be had to make all of that happen, short of trying to enlist various local collectors, enthusiasts, restorers, refurbishers, to say, hi, sign a contract with that bar, that bowling alley, that you will come in and fix, maintain the equipment for whatever amount of money, and or that you're willing to take some of your own machines, place them there, and work on a split with that location owner or even the operator. So that's something that I feel very passionately about. Roger, one thing we have seen is a growing number of players, certainly in IFPA, but men, women, children, and that's great too to be discovering pinball machines. I heard you say everyone's playing the games and they're going into tournaments, and I once heard you say to your sons you didn't want them in tournaments at a young age because you didn't want them to be disappointed. And that probably was a very good idea to do that because look at how, and I hate saying this, but look at how great those two players are. They're fantastic players and maybe there was something in that. It was more important for them to have fun than to compete and perhaps lose and be disappointed. I always felt that, at least at pinball specifically, and let's face it, they also competed in other activities. I always wanted there to be a purity to their view and appreciation of pinball that went above and beyond, can I beat this person or whatever else. And it's why, truthfully, with some of the limited tournaments that were available when I was in my prime, if you will, that I didn't compete in them. I didn't want it to be something where somehow I was not viewing pinball for the sake of just the pleasure of playing. You know, Josh and Zach joked in the past, oh, yeah, watch my dad play. He'll make a ramp over and over again just because he likes making it, even though it's not worth anything. And it's like, what a big mouth. True. But it is. And, yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting when you, at least for me, when I'm able to go to different events, whether it's a trade show or expo or whatever else, and I play games for the first time, I really play them more for the geometry, the layout. So when people ask, so what did you think of that? Did you play it before? No, I just played it a couple of times. Don't know the rules. I don't care at this point. I'm playing it as if it is a colored, finished white wood. And, you know, over a period of time, then I will get into it and delve a little bit more. But that was always my approach. And I think that if there's any analogy to that in regard to stressing to the boys that I did not want them to compete, I guess that is probably it. I wanted them just to enjoy pinball. And nowadays, maybe, Jeff, you fall into the same strategy, if you will. it's to dissect the game to try to figure out where's the weak point you know what do i do to you know minimize my risk and maximize my return on points getting to an extra ball whatever the features might be so that your scoring is going to be to its greatest extent in some ways it's evolved into tearing games into pieces and parts rather than looking at the totality of what the game is. And I understand it. I really, really do. But in some ways, you wind up missing the inherent beauty of any given game, because you're really only looking at various parts of it. I'm only going to go for the spinner, because the spinner's where all the points are. Okay. Well, what about the rest? Yeah, I could care less about the targets over there, that area over there, wherever the jets are. No, it's all meaningless. I just want to go over here. So I'm going to do a drop catch and just move it over to that flipper and just bang on that repeatedly because that's the game. And I felt a little bit disheartening. You got me thinking about it, and I don't know if I can turn back the clock, but I'm a father who has taken my two youngest to pinball tournaments, and yeah, I never really thought about that disappointment, but it really is a factor because when Carson, who's 15, when he beats me, it's disappointing that he has to find a ride home. I wish I was joking. Anyway, Roger, it's been a pleasure to talk to you, and I will say I really get a kick out of your boys, too. They're wonderful guys and great ambassadors to pinball, and look where they got it from. So thank you very much, Roger, for being on today. No, it's my pleasure, and trust me, I'm proud of what my sons have been able to accomplish as well, and we'll see again what the future holds. And hopefully one of these days I will be able to cross paths with you at a tournament or a convention or an expo or whatever else, and maybe we can just play some pinball just for laughs. I think we would all like to see you there. Yeah, absolutely. Roger, thank you very much. You take care. Thank you. This has been your 100th Pinball Profile. You can find a group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com, and please subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play. I'm Jeff Teolas. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 1f9aad2b-a169-4145-bda5-287f4a4be211*