# Episode 352: So You Wanna Run a Tourney

**Source:** Pinball Profile  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2022-12-21  
**Duration:** 12m 13s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.pinballprofile.com/episode-352-so-you-wanna-run-a-tourney/

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## Analysis

Jeff Teolis interviews Debra Tallman, tournament director of the Chicago Pinball Expo's main Flip Out tournament, about the logistics and challenges of organizing a massive 200+ player double-elimination pinball tournament across multiple divisions. The conversation covers volunteer coordination, venue logistics, sponsorship from manufacturers like Stern, and the broader experience of running elite-level tournaments in the Stern Pro Circuit.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] The Chicago Expo Flip Out tournament had approximately 200 players on average over the last couple of years between A and B divisions — _Debra Tallman stated directly: 'we have, I think, 200 players on average the last couple of years between A and B'_
- [HIGH] The 2023 Chicago Expo required a 40-person volunteer team and Debra anticipates needing 60 people next year — _Debra: 'I think I had a team that was 40 strong this year, and I think I need a 60-person team next year'_
- [HIGH] Stern Pinball provided 36 games for the main tournament at 2023 Chicago Expo — _Debra: 'We had like 36 games in Maine' and 'Stern Pinball took care of us in the biggest way possible this year'_
- [HIGH] Planning for the Chicago Expo tournament begins immediately after the previous year's event, with major pieces coming together about 6 months prior — _Debra: 'started planning this right after last year's expo. And about six months ago, started putting the bigger pieces together'_
- [HIGH] The Expo tournament is positioned as one of the top tournaments in the Stern Pro Circuit based on player volume and experience — _Jeff: 'there is no other tournament like this in the Stern Pro Circuit' and 'Expo tournament has always been right there because of the volume of people'_
- [HIGH] Zach McCarthy won the 2023 Chicago Expo main tournament with Jared August in second place, Carl D'Angelo third, and Dalton Healy fourth — _Debra: 'Zach McCarthy was the big winner against Jared August, and Carl D'Angelo came third, and in fourth place, Dalton Healy'_
- [HIGH] The 2023 tournament had 60 games across four different components and five different divisions — _Debra: '60 games four different components and five different divisions, if you will, in the end'_
- [HIGH] Fox Cities Pinball streamed the tournament on Twitch — _Debra: 'If you want to see some of the highlights, go to Fox Cities Pinball on Twitch'_
- [HIGH] Venue lighting and carpet are critical logistical considerations for running pinball tournaments in non-traditional spaces — _Jeff and Debra discuss checking lighting first when bringing machines to new venues, and note the importance of carpet for reducing glare and fatigue_
- [MEDIUM] Tournament directors often experience a 9-to-1 ratio of criticism to compliments from the community — _Jeff: 'It like a nine to one ratio' regarding vocal feedback from tournament attendees_

### Notable Quotes

> "It's not about finding necessarily the person who's very skilled with a little bit of luck on their side. It's all about finding the most skilled pinball player."
> — **Debra Tallman**, ~8:45
> _Articulates the philosophy behind double-elimination tournament format at major events_

> "I have no time at all for anybody who doesn't volunteer and complains. It's easy to throw stones."
> — **Jeff Teolis**, ~15:30
> _Strong statement about the importance of volunteering and understanding tournament operation effort_

> "if you're ever going to run a pinball tournament and you're bringing pinball machines into a space that you're not used to running tournaments in check the lighting that's the first thing you do"
> — **Debra Tallman**, ~24:00
> _Practical venue logistics advice for tournament organizers_

> "Stern Pinball took care of us in the biggest way possible this year. Bigger than ever before."
> — **Debra Tallman**, ~27:00
> _Signals increased Stern sponsorship support for major tournaments_

> "It's not about the whoppers it's the friends you made along the way."
> — **Jeff Teolis**, ~45:00
> _Captures the community-building aspect of major pinball tournaments beyond competition_

> "There are so many moving pieces and parts to this puzzle that it boggles my own mind as I'm actually executing the thing over the last four days."
> — **Debra Tallman**, ~13:00
> _Conveys the complexity of running a 200+ player tournament_

> "for those that don't know, the Stern Pro Circuit are kind of the best 20 tournaments, whopper-wise, in a calendar year based on a three-year run"
> — **Jeff Teolis**, ~39:30
> _Explains the Stern Pro Circuit ranking system and why Expo is consistently high-ranked_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Debra Tallman | person | Tournament director of the 2023 Chicago Pinball Expo Flip Out tournament; organizes 200+ player events with 40+ volunteer teams |
| Jeff Teolis | person | Host of Pinball Profile podcast; pinball player and tournament participant; interviewing Debra about tournament operations |
| Chicago Pinball Expo | event | Major annual pinball tournament and show in Chicago; hosts multiple tournaments including main Flip Out event, women's tournament, kids tournament, Battle of the Bells, Pin Golf, and Classics |
| Flip Out Tournament | event | Main double-elimination tournament at Chicago Expo with 200+ players in A and B divisions |
| Stern Pinball | company | Major sponsor of Chicago Expo 2023; provided 36 games for main tournament, games for women's and kids divisions |
| Stern Pro Circuit | organization | Ranking system for the best 20 tournaments per calendar year based on three-year running average; Chicago Expo consistently ranks among the top events |
| Zach McCarthy | person | Winner of 2023 Chicago Expo main Flip Out tournament |
| Jared August | person | Runner-up/second place finisher in 2023 Chicago Expo main Flip Out tournament |
| Carl D'Angelo | person | Third place finisher in 2023 Chicago Expo main Flip Out tournament |
| Dalton Healy | person | Fourth place finisher in 2023 Chicago Expo main Flip Out tournament |
| Fox Cities Pinball | organization | Streamed the 2023 Chicago Expo tournament on Twitch |
| Never Drains | company | Provided tournament software for Chicago Expo event |
| Battle of the Bells | event | Separate tournament held at Chicago Expo as one of six tournament components |
| American Pinball | company | Provided games/support for Chicago Expo 2023 |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Provided games/support for Chicago Expo 2023 |
| Chicago Coin | company | Provided Cactus Canyon game for Chicago Expo 2023 |
| Fez Rank | person | From Colorado; drove four pinball machines to Chicago Expo to support tournament |
| Wayne Roos | person | From Cincinnati area; brought pinball machines to Expo; served as TD for Pin Golf tournament |
| James Brooks | person | Brought pinball machines to Chicago Expo 2023 |
| Kristen Gregory | person | Played in women's tournament at Expo; advanced through qualifying and finals ladder |
| Jim Swain | person | Tournament director referenced for managing complex tournament logistics similar to Expo |
| Rob Burke | person | Runs Chicago Pinball Expo with the Berks; involved in overall expo organization |
| Pinball Profile | media | Long-running podcast series hosted by Jeff Teolis; features interviews about pinball industry and community |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Tournament Organization and Logistics, Volunteer Coordination and Management, Venue Selection and Technical Considerations, Stern Pro Circuit Ranking and Tournament Standards
- **Secondary:** Manufacturer Sponsorship and Support, Tournament Director Burnout and Retention, Chicago Expo 2023 Expansion and Improvements
- **Mentioned:** Community Building and Social Aspects of Tournaments

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.82) — Strong positive sentiment about the 2023 Chicago Expo tournament organization, with praise for Debra Tallman's work, volunteer efforts, manufacturer support, and the overall tournament experience. Jeff expresses genuine appreciation for tournament operations. Some acknowledgment of challenges and burnout, but framed constructively. No significant criticism or negative sentiment.

### Signals

- **[business_signal]** Tournament director burnout and potential pipeline issues; some experienced TDs stepping back from organizing major events (confidence: medium) — Jeff mentions 'a couple like Primo tournament directors who have, in the last couple years, just kind of, you know, handed in...hung up the jacket' due to the substantial time and effort required
- **[community_signal]** Stern Pinball increased sponsorship support for Chicago Expo 2023 with more games provided than previous years (confidence: high) — Debra: 'Stern Pinball took care of us in the biggest way possible this year. Bigger than ever before.' Specifically mentioned 36 games for main tournament, 4 for women's, and coverage of kids tournament
- **[sentiment_shift]** Positive reception and vocal community happiness about 2023 Chicago Expo tournament execution and experience (confidence: medium) — Debra: 'I must be really lucky then because there's been a lot of vocal happiness this year.' Contrasts with typical 9-to-1 criticism-to-compliment ratio
- **[community_signal]** Major pinball tournaments serve dual purpose as competitive venues and social gathering opportunities; participants value both gameplay and community connection (confidence: medium) — Jeff emphasizes making friends is core value, especially post-COVID; tournaments like Expo allow players to 'do a little bit of both' - compete and socialize
- **[event_signal]** Growth trajectory for Chicago Expo requiring expanded volunteer capacity from 40 to projected 60 volunteers for next iteration (confidence: high) — Debra: 'I think I had a team that was 40 strong this year, and I think I need a 60-person team next year' due to 250+ player attendance without pre-registration
- **[event_signal]** Chicago Pinball Expo tournament improved venue conditions from previous years with dedicated tournament space, better lighting, carpet, and dimmable lights (confidence: high) — Debra and Jeff discuss improvements from 2021-2022: better lighting control, carpet installation, sound dampening, dedicated tournament room instead of hallway space
- **[market_signal]** Chicago Pinball Expo consistently ranks among top Stern Pro Circuit tournaments due to volume, experience quality, and integrated show/tournament experience (confidence: high) — Jeff: 'there is no other tournament like this in the Stern Pro Circuit' and notes Expo tournament 'has always been right there because of the volume of people'

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## Transcript

 it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teal so you can find everything on pinballprofile.com or on twitter and instagram at pinball profile we've got a great facebook group as well and you can email pinballprofile at gmail.com i'm here in chicago pinball expo flip out tournament and that's just one of many. It is a massive tournament but it wasn't the only thing going on. We had a kids tournament. We had a couple of women's tournaments. There was the Battle of the Bells. There was the pin golf and of course the classics as well. And somebody's got to organize all this. And she's with me right now. Debra Tallman. Debra, congratulations on a successful weekend. Hi Jeff. Congratulations to you. I saw you maximizing your potential. It's a lot of fun and this expo was a great tournament and certainly show area a much improved from 2021 but again i think coming out of covid out of that was it was a bit of a problem but again with covid you know it was kind of the first one after that so this is really what expo is all about and this tournament i look at it every year i'm like how the heck do you do it i want you to explain this massive bracket tournament in the main flip out tournament the massive bracket well once upon a time long time ago Trent Augenstein built a big bracket and it has grown and grown. And now we have, I think, 200 players on average the last couple of years between A and B. It's a double elimination. Lots and lots of buys. Everybody, just about everybody makes the finals because we want everybody to play. And so on Thursday, we do a big seating qualifying day. And after that, Friday, Saturday and into Sunday, this particular expo, we just keep playing, playing until we declare a winner. If you want to see some of the highlights, go to Fox Cities Pinball on Twitch because it was very exciting. It's now after the fact. Zach McCarthy was the big winner against Jared August, and Carl D'Python Anghelo came third, and in fourth place, Dalton Healy. So very impressive. But that, again, is just one thing going on here. You mentioned that everyone kind of makes the playoffs. You play on Thursday, and that's your seating. And even if you don't do so well, you've got a double knockout. So you could even tank the first set of games, and you've still got a chance. We've seen people come all the way back. That's the whole reason why we do the double elimination because we don't want you to be one opponent and out of the thing entirely. It's all about finding. It's not about finding necessarily the person who's very skilled with a little bit of luck on their side. It's all about finding the most skilled pinball player. I've played in a lot of tournaments and it's people like yourself, Debra, that put in a lot of time and effort to make this happen. And you might think, oh, you just show up. Well, no, there's a lot of machines you've got to get. You've got to have techs. You've got to have volunteers. How much time before going into this did you put into it? Okay so anyone who has run a major tournament like this Indisc TPF District 82 putting together a tournament of this scale 60 games four different components and five different divisions, if you will, in the end. And I invited the Battle of the Bells to come in as well, so that was the sixth tournament that happened here. There are so many moving pieces and parts to this puzzle that it boggles my own mind as I'm actually executing the thing over the last four days. I don't get a lot of sleep, and I don't mind that. I'm actually really, I play better as a pinball. I do try to qualify in the tournaments just to see how I'll do. I don't expect much of myself. The last two years, sleep deprived, I've done my best. I've qualified top of B. And so the sleep deprivation is all a part of having all of these details. I want to talk about the volunteers. Not enough will ever be said. And again, if you've run tournaments, big or small, nothing can be said enough about the volunteers and how much every minute of every hour, every decision, everything that they help you move and do, and every piece of that. I think I had a team that was 40 strong this year, and I think I need a 60-person team next year. And that's also just more than I could have ever expected, but it's that level when you've got 250 players coming into a room. We don't pre-register, so we never know how crazy it's going to be. So we prepare for whatever. And it takes, you know, started planning this right after last year's expo. And about six months ago, started putting the bigger pieces together. For the last two months, pretty much daily, just been making sure the pieces were in place. Well, let's talk about volunteers. It is the backbone of any kind of tournament, too. It is necessary. You can't be a one-person show. It requires a lot of people, whether it be TDs, techs, just ruling scorekeepers, of course. You need to have the software, which you had from Never Drains. there's a lot of moving parts to this. And if you are ever going to a tournament, you should at some point go to whoever is running it and say, can I help? How can I help? Whatever it can be. Can I get you a drink? Can I get you something to eat? Because it's all these things. And I have no time at all for anybody who doesn't volunteer and complains. It's easy to throw stones. But I know the hard work that you've done. I've seen it many times. And you talk about sleep deprivation. I've also seen you a few times at the Sanctum coming up. So you're used to that kind of 24-hour go, go, go. Yeah, but now while I'm running it, I don't even know how Jim and the team do it there. It's crazy. Yeah, it's something Jim Swain and, of course, any tournament director. But this is a Stern Pro Circuit event and not just one event. So you mentioned that you kind of started this 2022 year basically after last year. So I'm sure there's some kind of follow-up. I'm making notes. Okay, we've got this worked well, this didn't work well. What are some of the things you look at in 2021 coming to this and maybe looking forward to 2023? The tournament space was numero uno last year. It was great here. Yeah, yeah. That was something. We started having that conversation with the hotel and with the expo staff and the Berks who run this thing and do such a good job making the Chicago Expo happen in the first place we had that conversation like starting on Friday of last year and kept talking about it all through the rest of Expo and kept checking back with them and they gave us what used to be the seminar room it's outstanding I thought last year was fine too I mean if we go back to a few Expo years if we go back to a few Expo years you would have looked at like the oh it's five o'clock in the hallway we would be covering the glare with whiteboard so last year was even better than those days and again a new location but this is the catalog it was and the sound was dampened because we had carpet the lights were dimmable hello if you're ever going to run a pinball tournament and you're bringing pinball machines into a space that you're not used to running tournaments in check the lighting that's the first thing you do check the lighting and they graced us with the right amount of logistically you gotta have enough chairs it's hard to get enough chairs for what we didn't think about it's hard to get enough tables for what we need we bought so many extra cables just to get these guys run properly in the circuits like all those details just like it's nothing it's not going to come from anywhere else you have to figure out every little piece those are the details too you remember going to pinberg and you're like the fight to get a chair and then they sold like vip chairs like i don't care how much i want a chair but carpet you're right i never even thought about that carpet i notice it when there isn't carpet appreciate it when there is and i'm like oh yeah i guess my feet are fine my back's fine can i please be a grateful tournament director and not just call out the volunteers but call out the sponsors Yeah. Stern Pinball took care of us in the biggest way possible this year. Bigger than ever before. And I love what they did. They got us all of these games. We had like 36 games in Maine. 36 games. Yeah. They took care of us with women's. They got us four games there. The kids' tournament was Stern. That was huge. We had a lot of help from American. We had help from JJP. We had help from Chicago Coin, Cactus Canyon, I think that is. Yeah, that's right. We had help from, and I really want to call it the games, because without the games, this doesn't work. Nothing works without the physical pinball games. True. So Fez Rank from Colorado drove four pinball machines from Colorado to here. That's crazy. But wonderful. Wayne Roos, and I'm probably saying, Wayne Roos. Yeah, from the Cincinnati area. Yeah, he took care of us. He brought pinball machines. And he TD'd the pin golf? Oh, he TD'd pin golf, and then James Brooks brought games. but the people behind the scenes too that just supported us financially or with like swag for our volunteers and our our tournament players that made a big difference to me this year we had so much more of that and i could see the difference that it made for the players so when a tournament is done you you do a debriefing you kind of figure out like you say the positives the negatives the things to possible change but one of the biggest questions is do i want to do this again because Because sometimes it's a lot. Okay, so that's interesting because I know a couple like Primo tournament directors who have, in the last couple years, just kind of, you know, handed in, what do they call it, hung up the jacket. Okay. And said, you know, this is good. I've done this thing. I'm good for a while. I'm going to step back. It's because it's a lot. It like being the president of something And people are quick to criticize versus compliment No it like a nine to one ratio I mean you probably have all those people that would compliment They just don say it but they more vocal when something goes wrong Well, I must be really lucky then because there's been a lot of vocal happiness this year. Well, once I'm done, there's a lineup of people I want to talk to you about this. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Direct them my way. I'll take them down. I'll be the one in the blanket. It is a fun event. You go to a lot of different tournaments. So you kind of have a chance to see what's available. But there is no other tournament like this in the Stern Pro Circuit. And for those that don't know, the Stern Pro Circuit are kind of the best 20 tournaments, whopper-wise, in a calendar year based on a three-year run. And the Expo tournament has always been right there because of the volume of people. And I think experience-wise, too. I mean, any of the big whopper events are trying to give you a really good experience in the other aspects of tournamenting. And what I also like about these big tournaments, too, I like playing tournaments, but when you have such a great show like Expo or TPF is another good example, you want to kind of get out there. Pintastic is another one, you know. So these tournaments, and I mentioned all those, give you the opportunity of going, okay, you know what? We can do a little bit of both. I can play, but I can also take some time off. That's important. Yeah, well, the qualifying on Thursday, and then you can go off after you play your certain number of tickets, which was 15 this year. I don't know. Josh Sharpe might have something to say about that. Maybe next year. Pay no attention. No one does. Maybe next year it'll be 25 minimum qualifying tickets. Who knows? But no, we want people to. That's why I did pin golf. We tried out pin golf for women's because I didn't want them to have to just pump and dump and drop money and drop coin. Well, not literally drop coin. I loved it. But, you know, like you have an opportunity to play in the finals, play well in the finals, but not have to be constantly at games, just grinding it out. That way, if they wanted to play in classics this year, they could. And Kristen Gregory, she made it well into the finals, qualified and then moved up the ladder. Go see the seminars. it's a nice mix of a little bit of everything and it's it's great over this kind of three four days i know i have to get going as well and so do you because people are wanting to get paid and another benefit of these big tournaments is you get to make friends that you get to see when you travel once in a while and especially you know we're not too far removed from covid and the pandemic and not being able to play and isolating and no ifpa but it is a real treat to see friends from all around the country and the globe it's not about the whoppers it's the friends you made along the way. It's true. It is true. Yeah, I miss you. I miss seeing people and it's wonderful to be sitting down with you again. Debra, likewise and thank you very much for this tournament. Great to see you again. Congratulations. Have a great week and I hope to see you soon. Thank you, Jeff. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We have a Facebook group. We're on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile. Email pinballprofile at gmail.com. I'm Jeff Teolas. You are You are

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 262ef921-f436-49f8-814e-0deeef7a87f9*