# Episode 117 – Dude Looks Like a Zombie **Source:** Head2Head Pinball **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2019-11-18 **Duration:** 83m 16s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.head2headpinball.com/2019/11/18/episode-117-dude-looks-like-a-zombie/ --- ## Analysis Head to Head Pinball discusses Deep Root Pinball's first revealed game, a John Papaduke-designed zombie theme park machine shown as a prototype at Houston Pinball Show. Hosts Martin and Joe Raza analyze the playfield layout, features (ultrawide display, MagnaSave, moving targets, innovative kickback mechanism), artwork, and theme while addressing community criticism about the prototype presentation and perceived lack of innovation. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] This is Deep Root Pinball's first game shown publicly from their announced pipeline — _Martin: 'Really, the big thing about this is this is the first game that has been shown from Deep Root. And that's a big deal.'_ - [HIGH] The prototype cabinet design is not final; standard cabinet used to focus attention on playfield — _Martin explains cabinet is placeholder to avoid skewing opinion like Heighway's Full Throttle with its unusual design_ - [HIGH] This game is positioned as Deep Root's lower-end/entry-level offering (comparable to Stern Pro tier) — _Martin: 'This has also been positioned as one of Deep Root's lower-end machines' and comparison to Pro model positioning_ - [HIGH] Playfield, artwork, cabinet design, and toys are all not in final form — _Martin lists: 'The playfields are not final... The artwork... are not final, they're placeholder. And the toys or figurines... are not final as well.'_ - [HIGH] The game features an ultrawide display with static information areas and centered video section — _Joe and Martin discuss display design with retro aluminum speaker grill backing and clean information layout_ ### Notable Quotes > "It is ridiculously a John Papaduke design. It just oozes John Papaduke all over." > — **Joe Raza**, ~13:30 > _Establishes the game's strong design signature and familiarity with Papaduke's work_ > "This is a prototype. This is a prototype. Like, every second word out of Steve's mouth... And then the first reaction is everyone's like, 'Well, I don't like the cabinet. It looks bad.'" > — **Martin**, ~5:00 > _Highlights the challenge of communicating prototype status versus public misunderstanding_ > "Did I mention that this is a John Papaduke game? Like, it really is just John Papaduke." > — **Joe Raza**, ~22:40 > _Emphasizes consistency with Papaduke's design philosophy across multiple references_ > "Everything under the game and around the game... I just think it's the sum of everything that he's done is quite unique." > — **Martin**, ~32:00 > _Addresses 'lack of innovation' criticism by reframing innovation beyond individual mechanics_ > "I think the stuff that they're pushing for innovation is not stuff on the playfield. It's stuff off the playfield, under the playfield, the cabinet, the wiring and display, and everything else." > — **Joe Raza**, ~33:00 > _Clarifies where Deep Root is focusing innovation efforts beyond traditional playfield mechanics_ > "It's a best of. But yeah, as far as layout goes, I think it looks great and I'm looking forward to playing it." > — **Joe Raza**, ~42:00 > _Concludes positive assessment of layout despite using familiar design elements_ > "You've got the roller coaster. You've got the Twister spins... You are actually in a theme park... It's a cool twist on multiple genres coming together." > — **Joe Raza**, ~52:00 > _Identifies the true theme as theme park with zombie elements, not purely zombie-focused game_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Deep Root Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer revealing their first game publicly; positioned as ambitious new entrant to market | | John Papaduke | person | Legendary pinball designer; designed this game for Deep Root; known for boundary-pushing ramp design and toy-filled playfields | | Robert Mueller | person | Deep Root Pinball owner/founder; interviewed by This Week in Pinball about the game reveal | | Steve Bowden | person | Interviewed by This Week in Pinball prior to reveal; insider who knew about announcement; competitive player and programmer | | Martin Robbins | person | Host of Head to Head Pinball Podcast; co-analyst of the Deep Root game prototype | | Joe Raza | person | Co-host of Head to Head Pinball Podcast; provides gameplay and design analysis | | This Week in Pinball | media | First to announce the game reveal; published interviews with Papaduke, Mueller, and Bowden; linked in episode | | Houston Pinball Show | event | Event where the Deep Root prototype was displayed for public viewing and playtest | | Stern Pinball | company | Referenced as market comparison point for Pro/Premium/LE tier positioning and display technology | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Referenced for display size and video implementation standards in the industry | | Heighway Pinball | company | Referenced for Full Throttle cabinet design challenge as cautionary example of prototype presentation | | Pinside | media | Community forum where images and videos of prototype are being discussed and critiqued | | Twippies | event | Award event that published images of the game reveal | | Zombie theme park pinball machine | game | Deep Root's first revealed title; John Papaduke design; prototype shown at Houston show | ### Topics - **Primary:** Deep Root Pinball's market entry and first game reveal, Prototype communication strategy and public perception management, Playfield layout analysis and shot design, Innovation in modern pinball design - **Secondary:** Display technology and ultrawide screen implementation, John Papaduke's design signature and influences, Theme park pinball genre positioning, Comparison to classic Papaduke games (Circus Voltaire, World Cup Soccer, Totem) ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.72) — Hosts are cautiously optimistic about the game design and impressed by layout complexity and feature integration. Positive about innovation approach (display, cabinet, under-playfield systems). Defensive of the prototype status against early social media criticism. No major complaints about the design itself, though noting it's not a revolutionary single-feature innovation. ### Signals - **[sentiment_shift]** Early social media reaction focused on negative cosmetics (cabinet, art) despite clear prototype labeling; hosts defending against misreads (confidence: high) — Martin: 'first reaction is everyone's like, Well, I don't like the cabinet. It looks bad. I don't like the art. It's like, It's a prototype... for people that are just seeing screenshots, that's all they're doing' - **[product_concern]** Community criticism that game lacks single breakthrough 'innovation' mechanic; hosts reframe innovation as systemic rather than singular (confidence: medium) — Martin: 'Where's the innovation?' addressed by systemic approach. Joe: 'this whole thing about every game has to have this one thing that's never been done before—it has diminishing returns.' - **[design_philosophy]** Game heavily references classic Papaduke designs (Circus Voltaire, World Cup Soccer, Totem) and vintage theme park games (Cyclone, Comet, Hurricane) per John Papaduke's own stated approach (confidence: high) — Joe: 'John Papaduke has actually said, You know, he's gone back to some great games for inspiration for this.' Hosts identify MagnaSave (Black Knight), Ferris wheel (Cyclone), underplayfield lock (Cyclone/Metallica coffin), rotor targets (Close Encounters/Jetspin) - **[design_philosophy]** Deep Root repositioning innovation focus from single breakthrough mechanics to integrated systems (display, cabinet, under-playfield, wiring) (confidence: medium) — Joe: 'The stuff that they're pushing for innovation is not stuff on the playfield. It's stuff off the playfield, under the playfield, the cabinet, the wiring and display, and everything else.' - **[market_signal]** Game positioned as Deep Root's entry-level/Pro-tier offering, implying higher-end machines to follow with potentially more features (confidence: high) — Martin: 'This has also been positioned as one of Deep Root's lower-end machines' and 'if you could look at it, let's say this game is a Pro... a Premium higher-end game, I can't imagine how much that game will have.' - **[community_signal]** Prototype displayed with placeholder cabinet, artwork, and toys to isolate playfield focus during community evaluation (confidence: high) — Martin explains: 'The cabinet itself is not the final cabinet design... so you could just focus on what's on the playfield' - intentional UX strategy for feedback - **[announcement]** Deep Root Pinball officially reveals first game (zombie theme park Papaduke design) as prototype at Houston Pinball Show (confidence: high) — Martin: 'Really, the big thing about this is this is the first game that has been shown from Deep Root. And that's a big deal.' Game revealed through This Week in Pinball with interviews from designers and manufacturer. - **[product_strategy]** Zombie theme park blends multiple genres (zombies + amusement park) rather than pure zombie game; hosts correct this understanding (confidence: high) — Martin: 'You've got the roller coaster. You've got the Twister spins... You are actually in a theme park.' Joe: 'It's a cool twist on multiple genres coming together.' - **[technology_signal]** Ultrawide display with static information zones and centered video different from industry standard full-screen LCD implementations (confidence: medium) — Hosts discuss how display divides play data and video, contrasting with Stern's mid-size and JJP's large display models; retro aluminum speaker grill backing aesthetic choice --- ## Transcript you're listening to the head-to-head people podcast find us on facebook email us at head Welcome, everybody, to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 117, and my name is Martin, and with me, Joe Raza. Raza, indeed. It is the talk of the town at the moment. Have you had a chance to have a look? I have. Just before we started recording, effectively, really. Well, at least the stuff that I couldn't get pictures of, but I saw the Twippy thing when that went out and it looks awesome. Yeah. So this episode really is going to focus on this, not just because it's a new pinball release, because sure, they happen every couple of months. Really, the big thing about this is this is the first game that has been shown from Deep Root. And that's a big deal. It is. And it's a Papaduke game. And there's so many good big deals about this. Yeah, it is certainly worth focusing on. And what I want to do, first of all, is before we give our personal views on what we think, I just want to talk about some of the, I guess, probably some of the features of the release and the machine itself. So the first thing to note is it's a prototype. and I'll come back to the prototype discussion when I talk about the general feedback from the public, which has been as expected. And one of the talking points that someone said is that what they believe is that the cabinet itself is not the final cabinet design. It is in just a standard cabinet and the reason for that that's been given is that the cabinet design is a little bit different. So what they wanted was for people to see this for the first time, to see it in a cabinet design that was familiar, so you could just focus on what's on the play field as opposed to trying to resolve the new cabinet design at the same time. Does that make sense? Makes perfect sense. Yeah. And just so it wasn't... Yeah, I think it's a smart move, just so it wasn't skewing opinion. um you know it was like when uh oh god i i i should be able to remember this but highway when they brought out uh full throttle people were sort of like okay let's look at the game second the first thing is let's look at this funky cabinet design with the the really sort of narrow backbox and the wide apron and it sort of gets in the way of really just discovering the game itself but you know i don't think there was going to be much change to that anyway so what we know is the cabinet is not the final cabinet. The playfields are not the final playfields, the sledgehammer playfields, whatever you want to call them. These are Mirco playfields. The artwork on the side and the backbox are not final, they're placeholder. And the toys or the figurines or whatever you want to call them in the game are not final as well. That's what we've been told. What did you think? Yeah, I found it funny that they couldn't have made it, like, thrown it out there more that this is a prototype. This is a prototype. Like, every second word out of Steve's mouth and anyone else who was talking about the game is prototype, prototype, prototype. And then the first reaction is everyone's like, well, I don't like the cabinet. It looks bad. I don't like the art. It's like, it's a prototype. No, okay. So this was the challenge, right, is that it got announced first by This Week in Pinball. so we're going to link it to the article because the article has three other very important pieces of information one is an interview with john popajuk second is an interview with rob mueller and third is an interview with Steven Bowden if you read the article it tells you all that stuff but in the defense of a lot of people they're seeing images first not the article so when And people are going, oh, I don't like the side art. And everyone's jumping in going, it's just a prototype. Read the article. It's like, I get people should read the article. And please, everybody, read the article. It's a fine piece of work, as always. But for people that are just seeing screenshots, that's all they're doing. And they're commenting on that. So I get it. But people, please read the article. Yeah. And I'm also looking through the lens of hearing Steve on podcasts as well. Yeah, of course. Before the launch. So I already knew. But yeah, I guess if somehow you were living in a bubble and you didn't know any of this stuff was coming, then I guess you could just look at it and just pop it up and go, what is this? Well, I'd argue that listening to podcasts is a bubble. So not everybody's in that bubble and not everybody's reading This Week in Pinball. A lot of people just go to Pinside and social media. So I'm defending people. It is what it is. but read the article, listen to a lot of information. There's videos that have been popping up on Pinside as well. Just get a lot of information. So along those lines, if maybe like, should they have just left those black and blank? Do you think? Would that have been better? Instead of just to make it obvious that people even, you know nothing, you look at it and you go, oh, clearly this isn't, you know, it's not supposed to be like that. Or maybe they did the same thing, but wrote prototype on it. I don't know if that would have been or then would people be complaining there was nothing there you know it's one of those things I don't think you can ever do a perfect release what I've seen so far has been great as far as being able to see high res images and get a feel for what this game is and the first thing that I noticed when I saw this game and it's such an obvious statement to make but I'm going to make it it is ridiculously a J-pop design It just oozes John Popajek all over. Yeah, there's a lot of fun stuff on there, a lot of cool toys, and as many toys as you could fit in there with magnets and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, it is. And, yeah, I'll dive ahead first. The initial reaction that a lot of people have said is, well, where's the innovation? But we're going to just sort of dot point some of the features of this machine, and that may answer that question. One of the first things that you'll notice is the display. The display is an ultra-wide display that's pretty much the full length of the backbox. And it, for me, looks awesome. Yeah, I think it looks really cool. The fact that they have the informational stuff is on the sides, the middle is your video, and then I can see that being a little more easier to wrap your head around than this entire display that has everything is animated and it's got all these things like Wonka or any of the other LCDs where it's like the entire thing is so busy and moving that you don't know where you should be watching. Whereas at least the clips that I saw, that's like, okay, it says free play on one side, you know, balls on the other side. And there's very strict areas that are static and just change for information. And then you've got video dead center. Yeah. So it seems like it's well thought out. Yeah, I think so too. I think if you know that's your real estate that you've got to work with, then that it is what it is. And they've used that effectively. And I was getting a lot of feedback. people are like going, oh, well, you know, in this day and age of big screens, and people, again, the counter-argument is, well, you play the play field, not the screen. But if I do think about machines that have got larger displays, like Stern's got a mid-sized display and JJP's got a large display, they're using it for lots of really big video. But when you're thinking about score and information, that's all pretty small part of that screen anyway. This screen just pretty much tells you what you need to know. And I kind of like it. I think it looks different. And I'm pleased for not being like everything else. The other thing to note is that it's also sitting on what looks like a brush, aluminium or aluminum, depending on which part of the world you're from, speaker grill, which looks very retro. And that's also divided people. For me, I'm on the side of, yeah, I love that. I love that retro look. That looks very cool. It looks like a radiator. Sure. Yeah, but it pops. It makes the display pop. It stands out. Another thing, people are saying that it's not as big as the other one. I bet you if you took the real estate of this display and then put it up against Stern's display or... Yeah. Put it in half and lay it on top of each other, it's probably the same size. Yeah, similar real estate. It's just in a different shape. I mean, the only one it's really comparable to, I guess, would be like the new high-definition displays for the remakes. Yes, correct. They're similar shaped. That is right. Yep. And, you know, it's fit for purpose. It does what it needs to do. It's not going to have giant high-res videos. They're pretty much where they are. And, you know, it's different. It's cool. Point to note as well, this has also been positioned as one of Deep Root's lower-end machines. Really? I believe they said that. Yeah, I believe that that's how it's been positioned, that this isn't one of their high-end machines, because we'll get to the big point about price later. So it's... Wow. What I'm really saying is that that opens up for maybe these other machines to have a big screen. It also means that they don't have to be locked into what you see with this machine, right? On record, they've said that they can do low-end and high-end machines and everything in between, so maybe they're not all going to be locked into this ultra-wide display with that retro speaker grill. Anyway, that's what it is. They're, for lack of a better comparison, they're pro. I know that they're not going to have multiple versions of the same game, but if you could look at it, let's say this game is a pro, then a premium higher-end game, I can't imagine how much that game will have or whatever. This game has so much in it. And this is the low end. Agreed. So let's talk about some of the things that you see on the play field. And I'm going to try and I'm sure I'll miss a couple because there's a lot to see. And again, because it's a John Papadiuk game and because there's ramps and stuff everywhere, I stared at these images for such a long time thinking to myself, well, where are the ducks? Where is the Ned Bash Toy, where does the ramp go to? Where does the ramp come from? What's that thing on the left with the kickback? What's that spinny upside-down target type thing? It was one of those ones where there's so much going on that I couldn't resolve in my head, how do I actually play this screenshot, if that makes sense. Yeah, I still haven't been able to figure out how that ramp works. It goes into the back glass and then comes out with two returns that don't obviously seem to go to that same point. I don't know. I don't know as well. So let's just start by looking at it. What do you see? Well, you see a John Papadiuk design with some very colourful art. People have sort of said it reminds them of Totan. Some people have said Circus Voltaire. And some people have said the art reminds them of Big Bang Bar. I think all those points are quite valid. I think the other thing to note is it's quite reminiscent of the trilogy of theme park games. What were they? Cyclone, Comet and Hurricane. And part of the interview, if you go to This Week in Pinball, John Papadiuk has actually said, you know, he's gone back to some great games for inspiration for this. So that's what it is. It's very colourful. It looks very busy, very packed. I think visually it looks everything I expected it to look. yeah i'm i'm curious if this is going to have some kind by looking at the art and the colors used in the art i'm curious if there's going to be any black lights in this game yeah uv then that that has been speculated as well no one knows obviously um i i think it would it would work well with a black light but we've talked previously that black lights really don't work all that well in games just because of the ambient light of the room that your pinball machine is in so but certainly the the almost fluorescent paint or whatever it is that's on the on the play field would lend itself to being fluorescent yeah and i mean if that's a the feature that you know i yeah it might not work all the time and it might only be good for home collections but at least in those environments i imagine it would look amazing yeah agreed so it's It's like, we might as well have the feature, I mean, if it's not good all the time, but if it's still good in certain situations. There shouldn't be a reason to not try it out. Somebody. I'm still looking at you, the Stranger Things game. I'm telling you, upside down. We'll see what happens there. So, let's talk about, I'm going to talk about some of the features that really do talk to that whole, I guess, borrowed from previous games. The first one is, there's a MagnaSave on the right. Okay, well, we all know where that came from, Black Knight. There's also a Ferris wheel, you know, from Cyclone, Hurricane, whichever one you want to take that from. Although he'd probably argue that that's from Theatre of Magic. Well, no. I think he did actually mention Cyclone, possibly, by word. Anyway, there's also an underplayfield ball lock, which, again, like Cyclone, if you think about the game Cyclone, you could actually see where the physical balls went under the playfield and then shot out. Similar to the Metallica coffin lock, if you know what I mean. So they call it the neon gas tube. So it's going to have some interesting lighting effects, I think, is what's going to happen there, which is kind of cool. But again, reminiscent of something that's been done before. It's got a moving target like Black Pyramid or Thunderbirds. one of those sort of targets that move left and right. So people have, because of where it's located, which is right up the back and it's a centre shot, people have drawn the comparison to World Cup Soccer, the goalie in World Cup Soccer that moves left and right, which is a J-pop game. So sure, fair enough. And it's got those buttons. Yeah. It's got a right spinning disc just above the MagnaSafe. we've seen spinning discs before. It's got... I'll say this is kind of like old, but it's been done differently. It's got a suspended rotating target, so kind of like the genie lamp in Totan or, you know, the Tesseract, whichever one that was, whether that was... Avengers. Avengers. So it's that, except it's actually suspended. The rotation happens at the top, not at the bottom playfield, which is a bit interesting. Don't have to worry about it sitting flat anymore. Correct. But you've just got to worry about air balls, I guess. The interesting thing as well, some of the things that I guess are probably different. The first one I'll talk about is the kickback. The kickback, I think, is quite interesting, though I think the excitement of it will wear off once you've done it a few times. And effectively what it does, it kicks the ball back like a standard kickback would, except not out 45 degrees into the playfield. It shoots it up to like a reverse ramp onto this, I call it a squiggly plastic ramp that brings it out in front of the sling onto the left flipper. It looks cool. There's also, there seems to be some kind of a reward for doing that. there's a hurry up in there and some other inserts down there. So I wonder if they might try and get you to do that on purpose or something to get points. Because the top one clearly says hurry up, and then the bottom one says get ready, and I can't read the other two. I can't imagine that those are literally there just for tracer lights for the kickback. So those have to have some purpose. So maybe there's a mode or something where he's trying to incentivize you to shat it and try and get it out the outland or something? It could be almost like a skill shot on the other side, meaning that depending on what you like, it might light something on the playfield that you've got to go for. I don't know. I'm trying to look. It says something drac attack maybe? And I think there is a drac mini stand-up target just to the left of the right ramp. so think about what am i trying to think about the monkey well i'm trying to think about a wizard of right wizard of oz when you get the inlanes will then light a hurry up so it could be that's what it's doing it's lighting a particular hurry up oh in fact one of the inserts at the top says hurry up so i'd say that's probably what it is so maybe it gives you a different hurry up to go for once it passes that sort of little squiggly ramp thing maybe you hit the stand-ups to make your kickback worth more or something yeah yeah who knows it's kind of cool i i think that i've seen that in action there's a couple of videos that people have um taken because this machine is obviously at the houston pinball show or whatever it's called um it looks cool the other thing that looks cool is the devil that's on the dare devil cycle jump which is you can't miss it it's on the left of the play field, just to the left of the atomic shop. Behind the doozy. It is behind the dizzy doozy, whatever it is. So you are hitting the ball hard to a very sharp metal thing that we believe does lift up. It hits the target, drops down, and then goes, that target, sorry, that little metallic ramp lifts up so the ball can then come back underneath it. Does that make sense? Am I describing that well to you yeah i think you did good job on that and that's a pretty clever thing yes i've never seen that before uh you've also got so if we think about well let's talk about this ramp right so the right ramp um you know obviously has a bit of a loop and the the feedback that i've heard from people that are at the show that are playing it are saying that getting that ball all the way up to the top of the ramp is quite difficult. And it looks at just by looking at the screen that I looking at And again I probably think about Totan is probably the example I give where, you know, if you shoot the ramp and it, oh, maybe even, was it, maybe it's Circus Voltaire. Anyway, one of the ramps that has sort of loops, if you don't quite get it up, it's got the ability to drop off it halfway back into play if you don't get it. And that's exactly what this ramp does as well. It's Totan. You're thinking of Totem, aren't you? Yeah. I am thinking of Totem, aren't I? Yeah. Did I mention that this is a John Popperjick game? Like, it really is just John Popperjick. Yeah, he pushes a lot of boundaries with his games. He really tries to figure out what he can get away with. Just like in the article, he mentions, like, ramps. He's like, I want to see what I can possibly do with a ramp. Correct. That's probably, I'm just looking at the main play field now. They're probably the main features. You've obviously got things like standard configuration of pop-up bumpers, top right, static toys, they're figurines, really. That's, I would say, they're the main features. It's a mode-based game. The modes are started by the Atomic Shop, which is a drop target to, I would assume, just a scoop behind it. And that's really what it is. So they're all the features. So where's the innovation, Joe? I mean, I don't know. I mean, that kick target thing, I haven't seen that before. Sure. There's actually a slightly similar one in Magic Girl, but it didn't work. But it was a similar sort of – but I think it was more vertical. This one looks like it's a 45-degree angle. And I think the atomic chop might work like the elevator in Aerosmith. It seems like that scoop goes up above that plastic. So I think it actually kicks out over the top. Yeah, it could do. More like, let's say, the Gene Simmons head in Kiss. Yeah, same thing pretty much as, yeah, like the elevator. Yeah, could do. Here's my answer because a lot of people have been saying, oh, you know, it's hardly innovative. I would say if you're looking for the one thing that is innovative that blows your mind, that goes, oh my god, I didn't think they could do that. I don't think you're looking at the game that does that. Everything under the game and around the game. Well, I just think it's the sum of everything that he's done is quite unique. Sure, we're all saying things like Totan and Circus Voltaire because it's just got the signature sort of fantasy that John Popachuk has. But I think collectively looking at the layout, it's fairly fresh. yeah I mean there's tons of stuff here this whole thing about like every game has to have this one thing that's never been done before it has diminishing returns there's just only so much that can be done and I think that the stuff that they're pushing for innovation is not stuff on the playfield it's stuff off of the playfield under the playfield the cabinet the wiring and display and everything else I think when they're talking innovation I think they're talking in those or the physical parts of the play field, like the actual play field. But, I mean, there's only so much stuff you can do with mechs unless you just go crazy town and be like, I'm going to have another play field under the play field that's the same size of the play field or some crazy stuff like that. I don't know what else there's left to be done. Well, I would argue that that's what Magic Girl is and will be when they actually release it working because it actually did have effectively an upper play field on plastics controlled by magnets. It just never worked. But that's, I think, again, talking about, well, that's their high-end machines that are going to release. This is, I would say, this is targeted at the Stern Pro market, and I think it stacks up. Oh, definitely. And I just want to just, just the main, I would say, the five things, even though I've got innovation as the fifth. Just quickly, what do we think of the layout? I mean, it looks fun to shoot. It's got tons of stuff. It's got, let's say, one, two, three, six or seven shots. It's got these cool varying targets that move. There's a lot of moving stuff. From the videos I've seen, this game is very active, which is good. Yeah, it does. Oh, you know, that was actually one of the features I didn't talk about, was the rotating disc of ducks. That's what I'm calling it, the rotating disc of ducks. Because you can't see it when you just look at the playfield, but there are some certain angles. It's under the left ramp, and effectively it is a vertical round disc that has targets on them that rotate around this disc-like device. It's pretty much underneath the kickback plastic. Yeah, it pretty much is like the Rotor, what they call the Rotor Targets from olden days. Like, I want to say, I think Charlie's Angels was one of those games that had the rotating targets. That's a solid state. Yeah, but that's what I mean. I know it's a solid state. But it was one of those Gottlieb games, and it was either Charlie's Angels or Close Encounters, maybe. I definitely know it's not Charlie's because I know that game, but it could be Close Encounters. I haven't really seen that game. But Charlie's Angels just has one drop target bank. Yeah, no, it's definitely not Charlie's Angels. Let's go Close Encounters. Pinball? Yeah, it is. It's Close Encounters. So up the top right of Close Encounters by Gottlieb, it's got these, yeah, rotor targets. I think they're called. And Gottlieb of the day had, I think Circus was another one. Jetspin. Yeah. That's one I've played a lot of recently. Okay. That's exactly the same roto from Jetspin. Yeah. So there you go. So it's got that as well. So back to layout, Joe. Does it look like it's going to be a fun shooter? Yeah, I think so. So it's got – of all of the Papadu games, I guess I'd compare it like a mix between Circus Voltaire and soccer. Soccer only because of the center area, but the rest of just kind of like Circus where there's just these toys all over the place that you've got to choose from what you're going to shoot at. That ramp looks super dangerous. It really does, doesn't it? That's going to come back to me. Either one of those stand-ups, you're screwed. Yeah, correct. so then you can drop target over there so i think this is going to be a fast furious game it looks like from the video foods that we've seen it also looked like it's a bit of a drain monster as well but it does look like it's it's pretty fast um people have been arguing i know funny i should say people have been arguing but people have been sort of trying to determine this do you think this is a fan layout no i might do i might do because if you think about it's it's two flippers down the bottom so there's no sideways movement from an upper flipper and effectively you are you know left orbit hurricane the dizzy doozy rotating thing the daredevil shot the atomic shot the zombie shot right up the top to that target the right ramp the right orbit it it is effectively a fan layout, I believe. In my terms, I think it's a fan layout, but I think the nature of the geometry allows for a lot of sideways movement. Yeah, I guess, but I mean, like, that almost makes every too-flippery game a fan, practically. Of course. For me, a fan, I think of, you know, like, a Medieval Madness or Attack War, it's just like, there's just shot next to shot next to shot, and it just goes across the entire playfield, where I feel like, and also they're far back like this one i feel like it's much closer there's a lot of crap that's close to you and at different angles and different you know distances so i don't feel as much as this one because it's yeah it's got the shot it's got that massive gap up the middle that there's practically nothing going on and then you get these really close stuff on the sides i mean yeah i don't know it's like i don't know it's weird i mean it's hard to i think you know let's define fan and really what I'd say was defining not a fan, something like Deadpool. Deadpool, a lot of people sort of say, isn't necessarily a fan layout because it's got that set of drop targets in the front that would normally be two other shots. I don't know. What do you think, people? Do you think this is fan or not? I don't think it matters because I just don't think this is one of those, a fan layout where it's all just hit a ramp, goes back to the flipper, hit another ramp, goes back to the flipper, orbits, orbits, orbits. I think that there's a lot stopping the ball from flowing back to the flippers and just sort of moving around. And also to note, kind of like, if we could draw another comparison to World Cup soccer, there's also some rollovers at the back as well, just in front of that. Man loves his buttons. He does. Yeah, he does all over circus. Yeah, so it's not like he said, I'm going to revolutionise pinball with this layout. I think this is a best of. But yeah, as far as layout goes, I think it looks great and I'm looking forward to playing it. What do you think of the artwork? I know we've talked about it before, but what do you think overall? I mean, I think it looks cool for the theme. It's nothing mind-blowing, but I think it looks good. I mean, again, it's not final yet, so I don't overly... I think it's going to get better than it is, I assume. Because that's also probably... Who knows what type of playfield this is going to end up being on. So maybe that makes the colors look a little different. or, you know, this is... They've still got another four months to work on this thing, so I'm sure that they'll add in or change the art however they see fit. But, I mean, for the theme of the game and what the characters and everything look like, I think it looks cool. I think it looks cool, too. It's very green and it's very purple. Yeah. You know, it's just like Ghostbusters. It's got a lot of, you know, slime and colors. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff there. So we had sort of talked about this a long time ago. I mentioned it with Iron Maiden because when Iron Maiden came out, it just looked like it was so packed. But when you looked at Archer and its Whitewood, it looked fairly open. I think busy art like this, with a lot of inserts, makes it look more packed than it actually is. Plus, you know, just toys all over the place. And I like the fact that there's no arrows. Like, I like how everything is labeled and everything has a purpose. It's not just hit, you know, it's the easy target, but it's not like Star Trek. where it's just like, cool, flashlight, go there. What does flashlight mean? Nothing. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's a flashlight. Yeah. This one actually says, yeah. Yeah, there's a story. Like, clearly it says spins, and that's a doozy, and then you get to ride the coaster, and then the twister spins. There's literally no arrow on here that doesn't have something on it. So I like that more than the opposite. So then, okay, layout and art. What do you think of the theme? I think it's a cool theme. I like parks. I like aliens. Well, that's right. You do. You're all about them zombies. That's right. I mean, how can you just throw some zombies in there? Right. So I think it's a cool thing. I think so, too. I think we're going to know more about the theme when we start looking at the animations. because, you know, sort of, again, people are saying, you know, it's not a zombie game. No, it's not. It's actually a theme park game. That is actually what it is. You've got the roller coaster. You've got the twister spins. You've got that daredevil thing. You've got the Ferris wheel. So you are actually in a theme park. Yeah, which I'm all over that. I think that this is a theme that hasn't been done before. It's a cool twist on multiple genres coming together in hopefully a cool way. I was wondering if we were ever going to get a theme park game again because of how terrible Roller Coaster Tycoon was and ended up being. People would just be like, nah, nah, let's not do that. So I think that this is a cool twist on it. I'm excited to play it. So that's why I said I think when you actually play the game and you see sort of the animations and the purpose of it, That's when you'll find out you're in a theme park. Are zombies attacking you? Is that what the purpose of this is? Or are you just happy to be having a lot of fun in a theme park that is being run by zombies that are also atomic? I believe that the story is that, like, this, I believe that, so the girl is, so the girl is, like, the daughter of the bad guy. And she's, like, rebelling on him. And she, like, attacks his ship or whatever. He crash lands in an amusement park. And then, like, this ooze or something comes out of his ship, which then wakes the dead. So that's. That just sounds hilarious, you describing that. I know. If that's what it is, man, J-Pop, what were you on? It is. I believe that Steve said that in his pinball profile episode. That's where I got that from. I think that's where I got that from. I know I got it from somewhere. Someone explained exactly what had happened. I believe it was that because Tealos was talking about the trailer and being like, who's that guy? And you're talking about, yeah, in the trailer, that's what the story is shown as. Yeah. What I'm saying is, if you're looking at the play field, you can't tell that that's what it is. It's really going to be about the call-outs, the animation, that's really going to tell you what's actually happening here. Yeah. All that green stuff is whatever that goo was. The slime one. Yeah, all the stuff. Yeah. Slime. What do you think of the toys? I think they're cool. I mean, the doozy thing, that looks really cool, and I think that should spin pretty good, because there's probably less resistance. So this should be pretty crazy. You don't have to worry about the ball getting stuck on it and crap, which is the one thing I don't like about the other spinning discs. That jump ramp seems really cool and clever. The drop target in front of the thing, that's fine. The very target in the back is the bad guy you have to pound on. That's pretty cool, especially being so far back. So that's going to be a challenge. And it's pretty tight, that shot. It's guarded by two stand-ups. Well, a post and a stand-up. So it's like, you gotta, that's going to be a tight shot to line up and then try and time. And I actually, I like the disc on the right with the drop targets because of some of the stuff, clips I saw, the way it comes out of there off the drop targets, bounces around there, hits the disc and whee! Out of control. Yeah. Again, that's that whole sort of sideways movement we were talking about, really. Yeah. And I need to know how that ramp works. Because it's really annoying. I can't figure that out. Well, what I think, this is just what I think. I just, I don't know. But I think that it's got either the ability to drop the ball to the right or the left. So it'll either come back on the right ramp or around the left ramp. I just, I don't know at this stage. We'll find out soon, no doubt. Yeah, it's just like the way, like there's some, like where it is, and then the fact that both of those other ones go underneath it. Like I'm just like, what the heck of the back of that ramp looks like to then somehow come back underneath itself. it's a really interesting design at being in engineering and curious of what that looks like yeah i'm i i can't resolve it that's one of the things like doesn't matter how much i stare and i'm looking at a lot of um video but nobody's hit the ball up to the top of that ramp for me to know what it does yeah and all these video the video we always get of these people playing new games would it kill us to get some good players on there to actually see what the game does instead of just people like flipping three times and the ball going away well i just think i just think it's a tough game i've seen the geometry down at the bottom part of the game it just it's a drain monster it looks like it so it'll come it'll because it's the public i just want to see videos it'll come we're talking it's saturday afternoon here it's therefore friday night there we've still got two more days of the show so there's going to be a lot more coming out guys and probably a lot of what we've said is going to be completely redundant um probably so let's move on to the animations of display we talked about that before i like it i think it's very cool and very different and i want to see more i've only seen terrible 240p video of it so i can't really uh i mean it seems fine i but as i can't really even tell the resolution or the quality of it because all the videos i've seen so far pretty poor quality yeah but yeah hopefully someone will get some high res stuff soon probably that the last one i've sort of put as a dot point we talked about innovation before but i guess freshness what do you think of the freshness factor um and for the last one i believe that also in one of those interviews they say that the animations are not final either and that they're they're kind of placeholders um but i mean i i think it's fresh it's there's just there's just something about a papaduke game that just i don't know it just sparks the imagination and makes you want to flip it. They're just odd, but also just in a good way. I don't know. I'm excited for it, and I think that I, for one, am very glad that he is back. Yeah. Yeah. Easy to say when you didn't lose your money. True. But at least those people are still, you know, at least Deep Root is making good on that. So that's about as positive as it can be, right? Right. so here's the big question what do you think it's gonna cost because i still haven't heard any information about price it's going to be two days until this podcast is put out and it probably will be revealed by then if it is i'll try and insert a bit of commentary about it but what do you think this should be priced at honestly i don't think that they're they're going to mention that at all until launch sure until that there's a final thing in front of people, I don't think that they're going to touch the price because it's just like, just like the prototype type art, it's just going to warp people's opinions. So it's like, I don't think they're going to throw it out there at all. But, um, I mean, by, I mean, you gotta take them at their word, right? So by what they're saying, I gotta think it's gonna land between three and four. Really? That low? Well, I mean, they're saying that they're, that this is going to make a massive impact on the market. And they're talking as if... I mean, you're not going to get that unless you're... If you're $500 less, right? So what's a pro-stern at the moment worth? I think like $5,400. Okay. So people are sort of saying if it's $5,000, people will be happy. People have sort of suggested it might come out at and that will make people unhappy This is the whole thing Looking at it now and that why I wanted to talk about price last just looking at all the stuff that we talked about it's value. And value is what people are willing to put a dollar value on to determine whether it's value for money. If this was at $5,000, that'd be great. But I don't know what it's going to be. I mean, they've said that they are going to undercut Stern. So it has to – I can't imagine that they're like after talking and all this stuff that they're just going to be like, you know, we're $400 less. Like that doesn't seem like the big wow that they're talking about. So to me it has to be, I don't know, $1,000 less or close to that. And then everyone – then they get the reaction that they said that they're going for, that everyone's going to go, holy crap. because they've always said that when they launch, it's going to change the pinball landscape. So I don't know how you do that if it's just another high-end game. Like you said, for $5,000, this has tons of stuff in it, and that seems low for this, but if you're just comparing it apples to apples to pinball machine to pro pinball machine for Stern, then is that that big wow thing? I don't know. I mean, like you said, it's up to the people. But I think that no matter like if you if this ends up being closer to four or in the fours, then I think people will go, whoa. You know, because they've made it sound like like when they launch, like the other manufacturers are going to have to react. to me that sounds like price point i can't imagine that they're just like other manufacturers are going to see their them hammering the play field and go whoa we can't compete with that like that doesn't change anything really i mean the warranty thing that they're talking about if that's true that's a game changer yeah how you do that but what was it like 10 years i think or something like that or is okay so this but that's an interesting point okay so if we talk about some of the feedback some people uh either it's been polarizing people are yep absolutely on board people are like well i don't get it it just looks like another pinball machine and and also people have been saying well hang on this has been like three years in the making we were expecting something more than this well he had the design three years ago but this has been part of deep root building their company and their new octo assembly methodology or whatever it is this just happens to be the first one that's being revealed it doesn't necessarily represent i think what deep root are trying to do so no definitely so that's why it's really hard to know what i think the pricing is going to be and what the market will tolerate for a price yeah i've seen those comments too and i was gonna those comments are really confusing to me because it's like like oh well this took three years. And it's like, well, you like, you do realize what the opposite of that is, right? Like the opposite of that is it where more highway or Dutch, like that, that's what the opposite of that, where you have a game first and then you decide to make a company and figure out how to work it out. Like this time they did it the correct way and they got the company and every manufacturing right first. And then they did a game, which is the correct way to do it. So it's like, we gotta get some positive reinforcement going here where it's just like yeah they did the right thing we shouldn't criticize them for doing it the right way and being like wow three years and this is the game this game was probably I mean Papaduke probably had this in his head for probably after Magic Girl for all we know I mean yeah this was the one after Magic Girl right and then it was supposed to be Wonderland? Was there a trilogy there? Yeah Alice in Wonderland was the third one okay so I mean this has probably been in the relatively close for many years, probably since after Magic Girl. Well, and to be honest, so people have actually done a side-by-side shot of an early prototype of Raza and the current version. And there are some changes. People are sort of going, oh, I'm not like... I would say there've been some significant changes to it. So it has had to go from whatever John Papadiuk had designed to actually now be something that's mass produced. So there's obviously got to be some changes. So that's what's happened over time. I didn't realize that there were pictures of Raza. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, go to that pin side thread, the deep root thread. It's all in there. Look, just also just other feedback. People have sort of been calling out. A lot of people do not like the display. That's fair. I get that. It is not going to be for everybody. People have also been saying that the toys look a bit basic. Again, saying that they're not meant to be the final one. And if you do zoom up quite close, they do look a bit raw, I think. You know, you can tell they're 3D printed. My biggest thing, the only one thing that I just didn't like, and it's one of these minor things that, for me, just... And these are the ball guides at the end of the ramp. These little sort of, again, they look like brushed aluminum sort of guides. They just kind of look a bit strange. I don't like the look of them. Yeah, they do stand out, but I don't know what the purpose of those are. Maybe they slow the ball down significantly so that you don't need Mylar there or whatever, and it's just a softer landing. I think it makes sure that the ball drops exactly where it needs to be so it can come around the in-lane smoothly. Yeah, which a lot of games have issues with that. so you know if that's the best way to do it then you know i haven't seen those used before but uh the hobbit could sure use some of those yeah they do um so what i'm really saying is if that's all my criticism i've got that's it like that's all i've got i i think it looks like a great game you nitpicky little bastard it really is very very nitpicky um but i'm so i'm on the side of, yep, I like this, I rate it, would I buy one? You have no room anyway, so you have to get rid of a real game to get it. That is true. The real question is, if you had a bigger house, would you buy one? Yeah, I would get one. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I would. Again, it comes back to the price point. If this was $12,000 or, let's say, $15,000 in Australia, I probably wouldn't. But if this was a 9, 10K game, which, you know, that's your 5K there, yeah, I think this could be a bit of fun. The code we've seen, by the way, is only at about 25% complete, so there's still a lot more to come. Judge it as you will. This is officially the first Deep Root game that we've seen, and I think they've done well. Yeah, I'm impressed. I think that this is you know and like if this is their low end you know and jeez imagine what the big end's gonna be yeah I mean obviously this is like you know cult of the new thing but like if this is like you said this is the low end man I wanna see what a magic girl looks like like since I saw that originally announced and just looking at it I'm like wow imagine with that what a working one of those looks like. Yeah. That's exciting. Whenever that happens. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah, exactly. That is exactly what I'm looking forward to. Okay, so just a couple of things I want to call out. So remember, everybody, please go to thisweekinpinball.com and read all the interviews. Just a couple of things I wanted to point out. First, these are some of the things that I found interesting from the interview with John Popajuk. And the question was, can you share what the journey was like and what you've learned along the way? I just want to point out this, just a couple of sentences. says it's been an extremely hard road and certainly harder from a business point of view i'm a better showman and pinball designer than ceo but the passion was always about pinball and making better games that raised the bar even as the road became difficult almost impossible i did what i could to keep going and told folks that i would not give up on keeping the games alive as they are relevant so i would say stating the obvious definitely a better showman and pinball designer than ceo and that's the problem that we had and that's why people sort of got to the whip burnt by it so yeah and it's you know it i don't know i obviously speaking from a person who wasn't hurt by it but it just seems like there was there's no maliciousness there with John Papadiuk i think that he tried to do you know like he said he tried and it just like he said he's not a businessman and he just tried to like a lot of people who are passionate about something and try and do it themselves and it just doesn't work out i'm glad he's in the role he is now because i think that He can shine just designing games. Yeah, I think, and you said it before, I'll sort of echo it in a way. Like, if you take all the bad stuff that's happened, I think we're better off for having a designer like him still in the industry. Definitely, and I think we're better off having a company like Deep Root, who gave him a second chance and made whole, you know, the people that unfortunately were hurt by his ambition and his ignorance of trying to do something he loved but didn't really know how to get it from A to B. So it's good that it's nice to see that people can get second chances. And hopefully this just ends up being a success, a comeback story and a success story for pinball in general and that everybody gets their Magic Girls and everything else and that all works out. and then he continues to go on and keep on making new games and Deep Root kicks ass and it's all good and happy from here out. The other thing I take away from this interview as well, when they were asking about what his design process looks like, he says he starts with a theme and the name first. The theme has to be something exciting, new, inventive and classic. Licensing is great for some titles, but the best games from the 90s are mostly original themes. Once I select the theme idea, then go for the look of the game, the art style, the colour design, try to get a visual look in my mind. I can see the whole game in my mind space all created and in colour then he'll try and find a common element feature character or idea to use a central hook all good pinball needs a hook and all great game past games have them flying saucer, castle, magic box, ventriloquist head, monster etc so in the case of Retro Zombie the main idea was an amusement park like Cyclone or Hurricane but then the twist is the space zombie alien thing people love family style pinball and for me having dead zombies was not really fun for mum to play hence the original theme idea that can work in pinball so that's cool um it's also said i had some good games to look for at for ideas and see what worked before everyone loves an amusement park it's great for pinball has easy to learn rules as most stuff we've all experienced before so that was just sort of backing up what i was saying before about looking at cyclone and hurricane he's called them out by name he knows where he's getting inspiration from just sort of making it a bit of a crazy thing. Yeah. You know, his design process is fascinating. You can tell that, you know, a person who thinks that way and designs that way, that's how he gets to these weird ideas. You know, he comes up with this stuff and then after figures out if it will work or not. Yeah, exactly. Because I think other ones kind of start with something that they know will work and maybe mess with it a little. Yeah. Okay. Look, the next interview was with Steven Bowden as well, and it's hard to encapsulate what he said. But again, he's talking about the fact that it's early code. You know, they're trying to say, you know, when do you know when a game is done? And it's really hard. It's hard for him to really establish when it is. It's probably one of the things where in their mind, if they know it's as fun as it's going to be, it's a hard one. But he's obviously very excited as well. the last one obviously then there's a bit about with Robert Mueller probably the main one is he said why is it important for DeepRoot to have a prototype machine at Houston as opposed to waiting for the full DeepRoot launch he said it would be from a developmental perspective it would be stupid to try to launch a machine that hasn't experienced movement that is for example shipment, real world testing or external eyes on the design. From a morale perspective we needed to be able to experience the pressure of a fixed launch of sorts and how employees dealt with the pressure to show something final before the real final launch from a marketing perspective it allows us to see how a low-end build for us would be received by the community so i just wanted to point out that because that's where he says a low-end build yeah i'm not sure if that means like you say that this is the lower model or if this is you know because they've said that like this is just a flat a non-standard this is just a standard play field and all the regular stuff that they haven't put their own innovation or whatever you want to call it into. And this is just like, hey, this is just here to look familiar for you. So I don't know if that's what he's referring to or if you're saying, or this is the cheapest game we have or whatever. You could probably hit that from either side. So we're really not going to know until it happens. Because he could just be saying, we made this look like everything else so that everyone would focus just on the play field. and that's what he's referring to, but who knows. So again, I asked about the launch. He says, you know, do you have a goal date in mind for the official launch of Deep Root Pinball? He says, yes, Deep Root Pinball will launch in the Deep Root Auditorium at the San Antonio headquarters on Wednesday, March 25th, 2020 at 8.55 a.m. It's quite specific, really. He says, schedule of events, media passes, travel vouchers, lodging and VIPs to be announced in due time. And what's our answer to that, Joe? Can I get deep-rooted? I was going to say, where's my travel voucher? But that's really the same thing. Yeah, I mean, obviously, I've been excited about them from the get-go. And Steve and being an engineer myself, I almost would be more interested in seeing what the factory looks like. But, yeah, that would be awesome. So Robert Mueller, he's pretty much going to be a complete shill for your business if you get in there. As if I haven't already been anyway. Last question for this interview was, does Deep Root plan to have more than one title ready at launch? How long after launch do you expect Deep Root machines to be shipped and arriving in the homes of customers? And Robert said, our primary goal is to launch with the Deep Root package. Rasa will, of course, be the first game. If we are able to fit another launch title or two in prior to the fixed launch date, then great. If not, then not. We expect the first delivery of machines to arrive between the beginning of April at best and the end of June at worst. I think to me that sounds like if Magic Girl's ready. Sure. If it's not ready, then it's just going to be this one. Because that's going to be the next one, right? Because they're already planning on getting those games to the people, the Zidmar thing, and that's supposed to be early next year anyway. So I would imagine that that's a, you know, if we get that ready and we're ready to send that up, then that'll also be available for launch or soon after launch. But I don't know. I guess they could just drop another completely different game, like, you know, Nordman's game. Yeah, Dennis Nordman. Yeah. Barry Osler. You know, they would have so many just ready to go. Who knows? Maybe Alice in Wonderland. Who knows? Yeah, who knows? So there you go. Have we talked enough about Deep Root and Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland? I think we've done a bang-up job, Martin. Hopefully, Robert will hear this podcast and go, man, these guys, they know their pinball, and we should get them out to Texas. Yeah, we should fly Martin in from Australia. He's clearly what I'm hearing. Yeah, obviously. And then I get to see Martin, which is great. And if you can only choose one, I mean, I am the cheapest option. He means it, guys. He's fucking cheap. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Just ask Martin what happened to Pimberg. He got me into his room. He didn't even have to ask. No, I didn't. No drinks. No nothing. It was so easy. Although I did have, what was it? That tequila was amazing. I still tell people about that, by the way. I know it was incredible Joe Fox you're amazing Thank you Joe I know I miss him already I do I miss him a lot I do speak to him a bit So anyway So Joe shall we tip the top 100 Could we Yeah I think we should Yeah because I'm getting tired I bet you are Here we go Hey Google pick a number between 1 and 100 Here's a random number 42 Aerosmith Okay Okay. Interesting. Before we do, let's talk about what's happened. So, Jurassic Park is no longer number one. That's true. Because people probably just got so personally offended by the fact that it was beating their big three that they made sure that that changed. Yeah. That was always going to happen. These new games that are amazing do jump up the top and then they settle to where they're going to be. So, Jurassic Park will remain a top ten game. also confirmed I will be getting my Jurassic Park either Wednesday or Thursday this week. Exciting. It's very exciting. Very cool. And also, Lord of the Rings is now tied with Pirates of the Caribbean. At six, indeed it is. Almost back to being right. Correct. Ah, Aerosmith. Before you go into the rules, I'll do my preamble like I do. I really, really like Aerosmith. and it's a game where people sort of say, where's the innovation? It does borrow a lot of play field ideas and rule ideas from a lot of games, but it's a fun game. One thing I really love about this is that it actually made me like Aerosmith. I did not like that band until I played this machine. I think the cartoon style that they've used is great. I think the rule set, I actually really quite like. the difference between the premium and LE over the pro is it's got that upper playfield that allows you to do the playfield multiplier because I've never even seen one. Have you played that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A friend of mine had an LE. So I used to play it all the time. Yeah, it is actually quite fun. If you had a pro, you'd be fine. You'd be fine without that upper playfield, but it is kind of cool. I'd like to try one at some point. It's like I've never seen one of those and I've never seen a premium Guardians. Okay, I have seen both i've played in le so that was that was how was guardians it um yeah i i think guardian ringing endorsement yeah you can tell i think of all the the pro to premium gaps i think that's probably got the most narrow gap of what you get because it spinners and then magnets underneath the hands right is that it I don think there magnets under the hands It got the orb sort of moves It's closed, and then when you do orb multiball, it sort of splits in the middle and opens up, and it's not that great. So you're fine with the Pro. So it's just spinners, huh? And that. Yep. Interesting. Well, I guess they've got those cool hands, which does look... I'd like to just see it just to see how cool that looks. Yeah, I like them. Yeah, I think they look cool. Yeah, all right. So there you go. But let's go back to Aerosmith. Tell me how you're going to play this. So I don't have as much experience on the newest code as I did on the previous code. I don't think too much has changed because the only place I get to really play Aerosmith is at Chuck Webster's house, but I haven't been there in so long because I'm doing this podcast, and he does it on Friday nights so I haven't been able to get there in many months. But the main thing, your first order of business is you're going to try, I mean, if you don't have a ball save, you probably just want a soft plunge and then try and catch it on the right. To me, it seems still worth to go for the skill shot. So if you can plunge it into the lock lane at the top, you also get a VIP bomb or smart missile or whatever we want to call it, and it'll spot you one of your mode shots that's lit at the time whenever you use it. And really, it's very similar to like a Guardians or a KISS in that you always want to be playing modes, and you have your two multiballs that you kind of want to intertwine with the modes. you have your toy box, which is the biggest scoring one of them. It's the same as Mustang, where the more balls you lock, the more balls you get, and the more points the jackpot is worth. A six ball is worth way more than a three ball. Exponentially more. I believe that the supers are like... I think they're doubled. The jackpots are doubled when you've got six ball. Then five ball? or does it double for each more ball it doubles from three to four to five? I don't know. You're the expert here. I mean, I don't know the exact values. I just know that six is way more. If you can go six, six is where the money is. So then that's your main scoring multiball. You have elevator multiball, which, honestly, I never play because it's so hard to hit. You have to hit both orbits to light the elevator. hit the elevator and then hit both our orbits again um oh actually just stop there just for a second here's what the the premium in the le have over the pro is a drop target in front of the elevator which counts as one of those orbit shots so it's much easier to get into elevator multiball on a premium in le oh that's helpful yeah it's weird because like you think looking at this that you know, same like Kiss or whatever, that you go, okay, well, the left one's the hard one, not the right orbit. I can't hit that right orbit. Yeah. It saved my life. Whenever I'm playing this and I have to hit that and it's lit for something, man, the left orbit is easier, weirdly enough. So that's Elevator, and then Elevator is the same rules as your, what was the one that started it? I think it's kind of like Optimus Multiball. Yeah, I was going to say on Transformers, yeah, you get it into the – well, it lights all shots. You hit one shot, and then you've got to put it back into the elevator, and then there's less shots over time. Yep, and it's the same as, like, Starchild on Kiss, I believe. So, yeah, that's kind of what that one is. It's not worth as much as Toy Box, which is kind of your Groot-esque rules where you're going to – During Toy Box, if you hit the two yellow targets on the side of them, which outside of Multiball will light your VIP kickback on your right, but during Multiball, if you hit those, it'll light the lock, and then mattering if the Toy Box is on or off, it'll either just kick it out and then you'll virtually get a 2x play field, or if the Toy Box is enabled, it'll throw it in the Toy Box, which is good because obviously it's a ball out of play, so you're playing with less balls, which is better. And then it'll 2x play field. You can put another one in there for 3x or 4x, and you can keep going. So there's a huge point potential when it comes to that. And then in your modes, I mean, each mode has its own thing. Like Sweet Emotion, pretty much everything is lit, so you get to shoot all around the play field. Last Child is the orbit mode. God, this is a terrible resolution. Rats, I know, is the spinner. Pop Bumpers, I believe, is saddle. Back in the saddle again. Yes, correct. The yellow one, which I can't read, is the stand-ups. The blue dude-looks-like-a-lady is the inlanes. Inlanes, correct. And what did I miss? Orange. I'll walk this way is the super ramps so each of the modes it has you can upgrade them so the weird thing to keep in mind with this is that after you beat any of the modes there is a super mode after it and that will last till the end of your game I believe in this one I believe it lasts to the end of your game but there's a caveat so that I believe it is any uh it's spinners ramps and orbits i believe that if you play those and it times out you get the super mode whereas the other ones you have to beat it to get the get the super mode and if it times out you just have to restart it um but i know i've gotten bit with this a few times is that on um on the walk this way is that if you if you do the super i think this is kind of like star Trek, where if you're in Star Trek and you lose the ball, you come back the next ball, and you're still in the mode versus if you do an away team and then you lose the ball, you're out of the mode. It's very similar like that, but it's big on this one because if, say, you're in Walk This Way and you're doing well in it and you've upgraded it, and then you die before you've finished it, you lose your super. Even if you had one shot left, the game actually punishes you for, say, not timing something out in this case, because if you don't complete it, then you lose it. Versus if you had just trapped up with that one shot left and sat there for 20 minutes, well, not 20 minutes, but like 30 seconds or whatever like that, it would then end. And then you just have to hit one shot and then you'll get the super mode. So it's actually, it's like, it's weird because it's like, you want to keep pushing your luck to keep building what your super is worth. But if you mess it up, you're going to lose it. So that's the push and pull you have on those ones, especially because super ramps can be a massive amount of points. Because this, like a lot of other games in this era, if you combo shots, they're doubled. And then you also get multipliers, which are lit by spelling Aerosmith, which are the yellow arrows. And so then shots can be doubled, and then they also can be doubled via combos. And plus, if you're in Toy Box, then the playfield can be doubled. So, I mean, I've gotten, I think my highest super ramps is close to 80 million or so of just super ramps, which you can only get 10 of them, but you can get massive values pulled out of them. Actually, I think it's more than 80, because I think I've gotten 25 million in one shot before. That's something to keep in mind when it comes to the modes. Other stuff around. After you hit a shot in a mode, you can upgrade it, which is the scoop on the left. It's the record lights. Crank it up. let's see, what else we got? Oh, the Mystery Award is lit by Spelling Aerosmith, which also lights your X's around the playfield. And the Mystery, as you like most of the time, will give you add a ball during multiball. It can also give you other good... It can also randomly give you 2X playfield. Double playfield for set time, which is super imbalanced because it's completely random. but I don't think that that's actually on in tournament mode. Some of the things I believe that the extra ball in tournament mode is worth 15 million. I think the special then I assume is worth 30, though I've never seen it actually lit, so I don't even know how you get it, but it tends to be double whatever the extra ball is. If the toy box is enabled, there is a benefit to going first or locking balls first, because when you lock balls in the lock area, it'll throw it in the toy box and then give you ability to plunge again, which if you pre-lock your stuff, when you plunge, you can plunge into the lock and literally get practically into multiball. Just if you pound on the toy box, lay all six locks, you could potentially now plunge all of them and get right into multiball. Right. So let me just pause on that for a second. So for those people that are, you know, stepping up to Aerosmith for the first time, the toy box is the one, you'll see what the toy box looks like. It's got this Jack in the Box or Jackie character on top of it. You shoot the ball to the Jack in the Box. That will light your lock in a little scoop that's just to the left of the right ramp. Now, when the lock is lit there, you can shoot that directly from the left flipper or if you do a short plunge, there's a little sort of back alley into that as well. And that's what you're talking about, is if the toy box is enabled, the ball hops over, and then you get a plunge. Rather than waiting for the auto plunge, if you do a short plunge, you can get it into that little secret one there and get another ball locked. And if you're really good at that, and you've got all your... Because the locks are stacked, meaning if you hit the toy box once, hit it twice, it will light two locks. So you can then, if you've got all six lit, you can then just short plunge into that. Just wanted to kind of say that. And the other thing which you're probably going to talk about as well, I'm just going to jump in whilst I can, is if you've got five balls locked in the toy box and you then start elevator multiball, it will start that as a six ball multiball. Correct. Yeah, that's a little exploit in why that the toy box is disabled in tournament because of those weird things, because someone can start a three and if there's five in there, then they get a five too. That's correct. And to add on when it comes to the skill, so that lane that you were just describing for the lock, that's what I was talking about for the skill shot. And then if you plunge that on locks, you also get smart missiles. Yes, that's correct. So that's super important. They're kind of like the Hadron on Guardians where it just shoots the shot that you need. Yep, or VIP passes or any of those lovely things. yeah so then yeah you can you can abuse that and if which can bite you in the butt I mean the one good thing is that when that happens the first so say person before you locks five balls there's five in the toy chest you get up you take a three it gives you the other two balls your first two balls you lose don't come back so thankfully it's smart to be like hey yeah which you know in practice it probably doesn't affect anything because the balls leave pretty quickly when there's five of them. So probably two you're going to lose really quickly and the game's going to be like, alright, now you're back to where you are. Now the ball save actually works. Yeah, but if you start a three-ball multiball and you get six balls, it doesn't consider that a six-ball multiball, so you're not getting the enhanced jackpot values. Correct. You're just getting extra flail-y Yeah, exactly. Shrapnel running around that's going to make it so you can't hit anything anyway. Yeah. Correct. Yeah, so I think that's everything. The VIP pass, we already talked about that. X, I mean, and then there's no, like, cherry bomb in this. So it's just you got to get to the, what is it, backstage pass? No, what is it? I don't even know what the wizard mode in this is called. The first one's called medley multiple. And that's if you just blink everything. And then the last one is if you solid everything. If you do, yeah. So if you just start a mode and you get a couple of shots, it will, yeah. It's saying that you've started the mode, but you don't have to complete it. That's called Medley multiball. The final one, if you do complete all the songs, is called Final Tour. Yeah. And this is, like you, I don't really like Aerosmith that much. I guess I like them a little more because of this game, but I still don't like them. Yeah. I think the art is great. but I would I wish that the two of these type of games they made weren't Kiss and Aerosmith I wish there was one of them was one of them with a band I liked yeah and people also have said that this has been the correction of Kiss because Kiss had some quirky playfield things but this game has a very similar layout to Kiss and somewhat a similar rule but it's kind of the corrected version of it. Yeah, and it still shoots really different. I like that, again, I don't get to play Kiss that often because, again, that's at Webster's house. I like how they still feel very distinct from each other and I think that the final update on Kiss distinguished it even more from Aerosmith. I think that you could have both in your collection and enjoy both of them because the path through the game and what you're doing like the Aerosmith I don't know feels less of a shootia and he a game like whereas this is more of like a Star Trek II where it's yeah follow the arrow where this one I mean this one is still like that but with the super modes it's more interesting and there's way more depth and strategic planning when it comes to like I want to take my you know my because I like a sweet of motion is a super frenzy that's like, oh, super scoring. Like, oh, I want to take that into a multiball or I want to take the super targets into a multiball or this or that. So there's a lot more thought that goes into it versus like, you know, Kiss is just complete a mode, you get a multiplier, and then if you complete enough of them, you'll have shot multipliers, then plus you're going to have playfield multipliers. So they're different enough where I think that they can easily exist with each other. Same thing like people compare Guardians and Metallica. It's like they're so different from each other. Yeah, they're similar, but they can easily exist in the same place because they're so different from each other. Agreed. If you had to take one over the other, which one would you take? Probably Aerosmith, I guess. Yeah, I would too. But not by a wide margin. Because I think that... I prefer the Kiss theme. I prefer the Kiss art. I prefer the look of Kiss more. But I just prefer how much better this plays. Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely see that. This is... The shots in it, like, some of the shots on Kiss, it takes me so long to get used to shooting them. Like, the right ramp on Kiss is so much harder than this one. But yet they seem similarly in the same place. So I don't know if it's just like... And same thing with, like, Starchild on Kiss. I have so many issues shooting. Which is in a similar place to where the toy box is. Yeah, they are, but the Star Child one has got a very narrow entrance to get into. Yeah. Well, there you go. There was Aerosmith. That's a great game. I like it. Well done. Definitely. Chonbog. Nice. Anything you get up to this week in pinball? League finals was last week. How'd you go? uh it it was the opposite of kind of last year where last year i had a lot of not last year last season i had a lot of issues barely making through the first rounds and i just it took me a while to get going this year i was crushing it all most of the day until the finals and i put up a big score on LaserQ and then just sucked. The next game was Jackbot and I did everything you'd want to do on Jackbot except for execute in those said things. I got my visor open, got into multiball, did nothing in it. Got my visor open again, got into the multiball, did nothing in it. Lit all of my modes and had Casino Run lit. Couldn't hit it. So I took a last with like 1.2 billion or something like that. Which should have easily been 2 or 3. And then we played Deadpool, and same thing. I got the little Deadpool stack with Juggernaut, did nothing with it, got into Disco, did nothing. So I came in last there. It was awful, and there was just so much time spent of trapping, shooting, bricking, trapping, shooting, bricking, or on-the-fly bricking. It was awful. I lost my accuracy so bad. and then um so that's three and then what was the last game and the last game was matahari so at this point i could only it was between me and webster um nick and ryan were whoever won that game was going to get the championship and i was catching up to webster on the third ball and just before this i had talked to nick and i was like you know i was like good thing that the It's not going down the middle anymore like it used to. So ball three, I need one more shot up the middle to get my 5X, and then I can almost catch him, and right down the middle. So angry. If I'm going to lose, please let it be my fault. But just going out down the middle on a Matahari center shot was just so aggravating. I thought I was out because someone told me because Nick told me the wrong math so I was like yeah fourth so then come to find out it was actually a tiebreaker between me and Chuck so we played on Medieval Madness and I blew that up I put up like 70 million and got to like King of Pain and all of a sudden I knew how to play pinball again pretty aggravating because I put up on LaserQ I put up like 1.5 million And then it just was all garbage after that. So I came in third. Not, I mean, my goal always is just make finals because I've only missed finals in league once. And this was the 21st season or so. So I've always been top four. So that's always my goal. And after that, as far as I'm concerned, it's gravy. So. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 29d44eba-7c6a-43ad-a63a-36cc257e3098*