# EP 9 - Modern Day Pinball Classics?

**Source:** Flip n Out Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2025-09-25  
**Duration:** 67m 39s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://flipnoutpinballpodcast.com/ep-9-modern-day-pinball-classics

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## Analysis

Ken Cromwell and Greg Bone discuss which modern Spike 2 LCD pinball games from Stern will become classics in 10 years. The episode opens with personal updates about Greg's vacation to Gulf Shores, Alabama, a mention of Emoto's arcade venue Captain Crazies, and a detailed anecdote about a mysterious vanilla smell experienced during a recent trip to Zach's property. The hosts then pivot to the core topic: analyzing Godzilla as an immediate classic example, discussing how strong rule design and code maturity can overcome initial theme resistance and artwork concerns, establishing criteria for what constitutes a modern pinball classic.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Godzilla is already a classic and will definitely be remembered as one in 10 years — _Greg and Ken both state Godzilla will 'hands down' be a classic; it's been out for significant time, still selling well, holding value well_
- [HIGH] Godzilla initially had negative reception to its color palette and theme choice before gameplay won people over — _Ken notes there was 'confusion on the color palette choices' and 'a little bit of blowback' when revealed; people weren't clamoring for a Godzilla machine initially_
- [HIGH] Keith Elwin is the 'juggernaut designer' at Stern Pinball right now — _Greg states directly that Keith Elwin is 'the juggernaut designer at Stern Pinball right now' and credits him with elevating Godzilla through strong rule design_
- [MEDIUM] Very few Spike 2 games will actually qualify as true classics when you factor in theme, reception, and longevity — _Ken states 'there were a lot fewer that I thought qualified for this instant classic' and describes the list as 'very, very, very small'_
- [HIGH] Emoto opened an arcade venue (Captain Crazies) about 25-30 minutes from Gulf Shores beach with good pinball machine maintenance — _Greg describes Emoto Harney opening Captain Crazies arcade with full arcade layout, multiple pinball machines, Stern leaderboards, and Japanese-themed interior design_

### Notable Quotes

> "Godzilla is going to be, hands down, a classic. I mean, I already think that it is a classic."
> — **Greg Bone**, ~1:33:00
> _Direct statement establishing Godzilla as consensus modern classic; sets the tone for the episode's analytical framework_

> "Keith Elwin on that game. who is the juggernaut designer at Stern Pinball right now. Then you go ahead and you put his team on that game with an incredible rule set."
> — **Greg Bone**, ~1:37:00
> _Establishes Elwin's status as Stern's top designer; credits design team for elevating Godzilla's success_

> "the biggest criteria that I use when selecting this list, because I knew that we were going to be talking about these games today simply was how many of these games do we have in stock of flipping out pinball? Because we obviously want to talk up the inventory that we need to get rid of."
> — **Ken Cromwell**, ~1:13:00
> _Self-aware humor about potential bias in game selection; establishes comedic tone and transparency about business interests_

> "when you really break it down, a lot of the games are very good, But when you factor in things like, you know, the theme, the theme is going to be huge, I think, in whether it stays a classic or not."
> — **Ken Cromwell**, ~1:10:00
> _Core analytical criterion for classifying modern classics; establishes that theme matters as much as gameplay mechanics_

> "you know, nobody was really clamoring for a Godzilla. Pinball machine is a theme. But what Elwin and the entire team there did with that, it elevated that game so much and is such a good shooting game."
> — **Greg Bone**, ~1:32:00
> _Demonstrates how strong design can overcome licensing limitations and initial market resistance; illustrates the 'great game transcends weak theme' narrative_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Ken Cromwell | person | Co-host of Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast; former Jersey Jack Pinball PR/marketing person; 19+ years in pinball hobby; discussing modern Spike 2 games that qualify as classics |
| Greg Bone | person | Co-host of Flippin' Out Pinball Podcast; passionate about pinball; vacationing to Gulf Shores, Alabama; contributor to Straight Down the Middle content |
| Emoto Harney | person | Arcade venue operator; opened Captain Crazies arcade near Gulf Shores, Alabama; known for excellent machine maintenance, Stern leaderboards, Japanese-themed interior design |
| Zach Minney | person | Owner/founder of Flippin' Out Pinball; employer of Ken and Greg; non-micromanaging manager; hosts Pinball Show podcast; maintains property with fire pit and barn filming setup |
| Keith Elwin | person | Stern Pinball designer; described as 'juggernaut designer' currently; lead designer on Godzilla pinball; known for strong rule sets and game design |
| Nicole | person | Employee/associate at Flippin' Out Pinball; provided hospitality during filming trip; created impressive fire at property; described as hospitable and hardworking |
| Godzilla | game | Stern Pinball Spike 2 machine; Elwin-designed; consensus modern classic; initially faced skepticism on theme and color palette; exceptional shooting game with mature code; strong secondary market value |
| Flippin' Out Pinball | company | Pinball sales, distribution, and rental company; operated by Zach Minney with Ken Cromwell and Greg Bone; focused on customer service and first-time buyer education; modest staff with high customer engagement |
| Captain Crazies | event | Arcade venue in Gulf Shores, Alabama area opened by Emoto; features multiple pinball machines, Japanese-inspired interior design, hibachi-style entry, Stern leaderboards |
| Spike 2 | product | Stern Pinball's operating system featuring LCD screens (as opposed to Spike 1 DMD/dot-matrix); defines the era of games being discussed as potential classics |
| Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; producer of Spike 1/2/3 operating system games; focus of discussion for modern game classics; employer of Keith Elwin |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Modern pinball classics (Spike 2 era), Game theme and licensing impact on classic status, Godzilla pinball design and reception arc
- **Secondary:** Flippin' Out Pinball company culture and business philosophy, Arcade venues and pinball machine locations in Gulf Shores area, Keith Elwin's role and status as lead Stern designer
- **Mentioned:** Mysterious supernatural encounter (vanilla smell anecdote)

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.82) — Hosts express enthusiasm about discussing modern classics and Godzilla specifically. Strong positive sentiment about Flippin' Out Pinball company culture, management philosophy, and working relationships. Personal anecdotes (vacation, business trip) delivered with warmth and humor. No major criticisms leveled; primarily appreciative tone throughout. Minor mention of initial Godzilla theme skepticism, but framed as overcome challenge rather than lasting concern.

### Signals

- **[business_signal]** Flippin' Out Pinball demonstrates successful small-team operation with strong customer focus and non-micromanagement culture; hosts express high satisfaction and growth mindset (confidence: high) — Ken: 'Zach has expectations, and he just lets you go... no micromanaging... we're building this business and we're getting ready to grow... I'm part of something special'
- **[event_signal]** Emoto's Captain Crazies arcade venue represents successful pinball location strategy in Gulf Shores market; demonstrates alternative to Family Fun Center redemption game model (confidence: high) — Greg: 'everything's just Family Fun Center stuff, all redemption games... Emoto opened up an arcade... she's got a fantastic layout... she takes really good care of her stuff'
- **[design_philosophy]** Strong rule design and mature code can overcome initial theme/licensing resistance; theme is crucial but not deterministic (confidence: high) — Ken: 'the theme is going to be huge, I think, in whether it stays a classic or not' but also 'what Elwin and the entire team there did with that, it elevated that game so much'
- **[market_signal]** Godzilla maintains strong secondary market value and consistent sales performance years after release; indicator of classic status sustainability (confidence: medium) — Ken: 'still selling well, still holding value well' and 'it's still going to be a game that people want to play'
- **[personnel_signal]** Keith Elwin positioned as Stern's lead/premier designer ('juggernaut designer'); directly credited with Godzilla's success and artistic elevation (confidence: high) — Greg: 'Keith Elwin... who is the juggernaut designer at Stern Pinball right now... incredible rule set'
- **[sentiment_shift]** Godzilla initially received skeptical theme/color reception at reveal but has achieved strong post-launch appreciation and remains a consensus modern classic (confidence: high) — Greg: 'there was a little bit of confusion on the color palette choices... people were envisioning something different... you come full circle though... Godzilla is a great selection... ending up being one of the more classic pinball machines'

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## Transcript

 Hey, what's going on pinball land? It's episode nine. That is zero nine. I'm flipping off pinball podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell with you today. Greg bone. Greg, what's up? Man, Ken, I'm struggling. Uh-oh, what's going on? Oh, man, I leave for vacation in like 48 hours. Oh, that's a good feeling, man. We are recording this on, what is this, Wednesday, 9 o'clock in the morning on Central Time here. And where are you, you're headed to, where are you going again? Gulf Shores, Alabama. Oh, yeah, that's your stomping grounds. Whenever you're going on vacation, it seems like half the times you're out there in Gulf Shores. If it's not Universal Studios, we're in Gulf Shores. We did skip last year at Gulf Shores, though. That was the only time because we did a couple of trips down to Orlando. So we decided to skip the beach. But it's a good time down there, man. When we first started going down there is when I really started getting – well, we went down there a little bit prior, a few years prior. But it was when I was really getting into pinball and stuff. So, you know, that was always nice because I got a lot of memories of pinball. There was an old ass Spider-Man down there that, man, I swear that that game had to have. It's got to have no less than 100,000 plays on there because it's been down there so long. Yeah, it is. And then, you know, we got real lucky. Our good friend Emoto Harney, she opened up an arcade down there about probably 25, 30 minutes from the beach, from Gulf Shores there. so you know she has a fantastic layout man i mean it's full-on arcade you know quite a few you know pinball machines down there and she takes really good care of her stuff you know she's got the big tvs hanging above she's got stern leaderboards which uh first time i visited man that's that's all i concentrated on i spent hours down there when you go down there greg does it look like a big stern booth like for a reveal like at a show no so like she's got a lot of good She did a good job. She did a good job on those stern boots. I don't know if she's still doing them anymore. Yeah, so it's kind of crazy, Ken, because, like, the name of the place is called Captain Crazies. So it's kind of like a pirate type thing to me. But then she kind of tapped into, like, her Japanese roots on the inside. So it's almost like you walk into, like, a fucking hibachi grill or something when you first go in. Like, you don't even know that it's an arcade. Like, you walk in, and, like, there's this, like, sliding door that then they open up and take you into. so you don't really see anything when you first walk in. So it's like a cool reveal surprise when they open the door and let you in and there's all these arcade games and pinball machines. So, dude, it's a joy down there. And I love that somebody brought something like that down there because, again, everything's just Family Fun Center stuff, all redemption games. And pinball's even become more sparing down there just because, you know, maintenance and everything that we all go through with them. So, you know, kudos to her for opening that up. and, you know, as far as I know, doing really well with it down there. So when you go down to the Gulf Shores, so you're making a stop there at Kettin' Crazies? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, I make at least one trip out there because, you know, my wife doesn't tie me to the beach. I'm pretty lucky. So, like, if I get stir crazy and I've sat too long and the beach is too much, usually I'll skip out and go play some games and stuff, you know, about mid-afternoon while they're still down there and then come back and meet them and then get ready for dinner and all that stuff. So, yeah, there's a lot of times I'll bounce out and go, you know, pinball hunting for stuff. What is this? We said episode nine of Flip N Out Pinball Podcast. I wanted to give a quick shout out to our Patreon supporters. For those of you that want to support the show in a little extra special way, you can go to Patreon. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com. Type in Flip N Out Pinball Podcast. And there's some different fun ways to support the show. Greg and myself, we want to give a warm welcome to Colin, Jared. dog days is uh those three guys jumping in on the patreon and then dual exhaustion upped his patreon pledge so we appreciate that too uh again patreon.com come check us out come hang there with the uh the community and i think we finally came to a conclusion on this whole after hours thing for those of you that wanted to jump in on that uh that that monthly meetup with us so if you want to connect with greg and myself on tuesday evening october 7th We're going to light the lamp, a couple drinks, a couple stories, see where the night takes us. It's been in the queue for a while. We were going to do it this coming week, but, hey, you've got Gulf Shores to attend. So that's absolutely. Yeah, this one was all my fault. First time Star Wars wrecked it. This time is all my fault. You know what? And I wanted to give another shout out to Trace. Trace has been selling games and including Flip N Out Pinball Podcast one-year subscriptions via Patreon on all these pinball sales. And I think he's gifted like three one-year subs. So, you know, big shout-out to Trace. Really appreciate it, buddy. Going the extra mile. Always been a great supporter of pinball, great ambassador of the show, and just a great personal friend of both of ours. So we appreciate it. And, Kenzo, we go forever without seeing each other. And then we end up with almost back-to-back trips where we get to hang out. You and I went down to Zach's for a night. we needed to do some filming on a project that we're all working on and stuff, and you ended up driving down. What was that trip? Was that about seven hours for you to get down? No, no, no, no. It was probably five and a half, six hours of alone time. It was about four hours longer than I would typically want to drive, but it was to come see you guys, I will make the sacrifice without a doubt. I know, dude. We had a blast again. No spooky, creepy. Actually, we do kind of have a creepy story to go along with that. Oh, that's right. That's right. I almost forgot about that. Yeah. So, you know, before we get to that, you know, dude, like, yeah, so we went down there. We were going down to do some work, some straight down the middle slash, you know, flipping out pinball work. And, you know, like it kind of turned into me, and I don't know how you feel about this, but I kind of left there. you know i was like this is kind of it it turned out to almost be like a a business retreat for a night you know like we we discussed you know not only the work that we were doing filming but i i feel like that dude we were just like lunch and dinner and everything you know in between stuff just anytime we were taking a break we were just discussing like business goals and and what we were going to do and just i mean like conquering the world business wise and you know what we could do to elevate and better flipping out like and i didn't really think about it in the moment because you know we all discuss business a lot anyways together but you know i left there feeling like reinvigorated and it was like i don't know if zach did that on purpose and just snuck it in on us or or what man but it felt it was like the cloak attack motivational business trip yes yes yeah no it was a really good time man you know and a part of that for me also is just a personal i I don't want to say therapy session, but to get together with you guys because we're so like minded and we're so aligned on ethics and morals and principles. It's just such an easy way to spend time. I don't spend time like that really with anybody else. And it's always appreciated. And then, you know, outside of the personal stuff that that we all are happy to share, just to be able to focus on business and propel flipping out pinball. And, you know, I told you how happy I was to kind of come aboard and start working with you and Zach and Nicole. just real pleasantly exceeded my already high expectations. And, you know, not to sound sappy or be the company guy, without a doubt, 100%, never been in a better place in my life, whether it be career-wise, personal-wise, working with colleagues and close personal friends. So, you know, blessed for that. Well, and we're all just, we're all very like-minded and we're all very respectful of each other. I still think that that's a huge thing. And then, you know, Zach had kind of brought this up. It wasn't about us being down there, but he just brought it up on the latest episode of the Pinball Show. You know, he doesn't micromanage. Like, that's the best thing. Zach has expectations, and he just lets you go. Like, you know, there is no follow-up, really. There's no, again, no micromanaging. It's, hey, this is what's expected of you. This is your job. Do it. and again i actually made it sound a lot harsher than what it is because it's just not at all like you know as long as it gets done that's all he cares about you know as long as you're giving that good customer service you're giving a good sales experience that's all he cares about you know if it takes you an hour to get something get there you know we but but i think that in return that that all that causes you and i to strive even more you know to work harder yes exactly Because I think sometimes in business and even in family and stuff, you know, when you drive too hard and you just do this and you're being micromanaged and, you know, somebody's just breathing down your neck with everything, it's exhausting on you or something. You know what I'm saying? Like it almost hinders your work ethic and what you want to do inadvertently just because you're always scared that you're going to mess something up or somebody, you know, you're going to get in trouble for this or that. And whereas with Zach, it's just, it's not that case at all, man. We're just there's an expectation and he trusts in you and I enough that the job is going to get done and we're going to do it to his, you know, to his standards. Oh, for sure. I mean, we're both hard workers anyhow, but it's like the last thing you want to do is let down your boss and even more so. You don't want to let down your friend. Exactly. You know, we never want to be in that position. I think one of the things that, you know, I am grateful for the most is just having that sense of I'm not punching a clock going into work. Yes. And and just getting a check. I just feel like I'm part of something special and we're building this business and we're getting ready to, you know, grow. I don't want to say exponentially because we still have a modest amount of staff. And for the amount of staff that we have in comparison to the amount of customer service that we provide, I've never seen anything like it. And it's not even like touting our own our own horns, so to speak. But it's just like we're so focused on the pinball enthusiast who's coming to the business, who is asking questions. So many people I've spoken with over this past month have come to Flip N Out Pinball. and the first thing that they say is, this is going to be my first pinball machine. This is going to be my first new game. And to be able to relate to that on such a personal level, at some point we were all buying our first game. And you know the excitement. You know the stress. You know the questions. You know feeling a little bit vulnerable because you don't know what to expect. We're here to take the weight of the world off your shoulders and kind of guide you in a way in which we think it's going to benefit you the most. because the last thing that we would want to do is put you in a bad spot for several reasons. So, yeah, it's a special type of thing. We're not micromanaged. We're part of a team. And, you know, it's nice to really have what I believe are good ideas and to have them be heard and to be given the chance to fail if need be. And that hasn't been something that I've been able to really experience in quite a long time. To that respect that I was talking about, about how we all are very respectful of each other, and along with that respect comes a trust with everything. And it's a very conducive environment for growth and for happiness. You know, it's just, you know, and like you said, somebody that just can put a little trust and a little faith in you, it goes a long way. Because the more trust that somebody puts in you, the more apt that you are to succeed because you're not so scared of the consequences of failure. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But yeah, yeah, dude, it's awesome. I'm happy to talk about it. And I guess part of it is it's not a commercial for flipping out, but just know what you're walking into. You're not you're not walking into you're not you're not finding a business where you've got a bunch of people that are that are beat down by life and disgruntled and trying to, you know, bang out some commission. It's legitimately three or four hobbyists that have been grassroots boots on the ground in this hobby for, you know, 10, 15 years. It's going to be 19 years for me this year. So it's, we're, we're passionate about it and, uh, uh, just fun to share the story and the experience. And so to fill everybody in on our, our semi spooky story here to, to get to a little bit of fun stuff, um, unpinball related, but sort of pinball related. So, you know, what, what'd we do? Can we, we wrapped up work, uh, probably about 8 PM that night. Well, it's funny because when I, I left, uh, I left my house at, I think eight or nine in the morning and I got out by you guys at two 30. I know you were out there early, like seven, eight o'clock. And when I pulled up, I'm thinking you guys were going to have a lot of the, uh, straight down the middle stuff banged out. And you're like, yep, we just set up with the shots for getting ready to record. I was like, Oh snap. All right. And, and you know, you never really understand setting up those shots and getting the lighting and the angles. It's, it's so vital to having any type of quality product, uh, in regards to like content creation, video marketing, things like that and it takes a lot of time oh people underestimate it i mean it it does and you know that's what uh you know even the next day we i filmed until about 8 p.m uh again until we left um but yeah so we we stopped we stopped filming about 8 p.m and nicole had built us a nice fire in the fire pit dude i think was out there roaring like we we could see it from the the barn uh where we were working you could see that from space the fire that nicole ignited i was concerned for my personal safety at about it was the most impressive beautiful picturesque fire i've ever seen like she did an amazing job and so i turned to zach and i was like it's like is that a real fire because it looked like like the jet exhaust or something of uh like like propane or something coming out it was nuts yeah it was huge at least it was at least and so we all go out there you and i fire up a couple uh oh no zach had a one with us too we fired up a couple stogies um you know had a couple drinks and as we're sitting there you know winding down no no business in this this is all just personal how are we gonna save the world sort of uh discussions and zach comes over and like starts sniffing around me and i'm like what the hell did i didn't fart or anything like what the hell is this he was like he was like you smell that and i was like i mean And no, I mean, I smell like campfire smoke. And he was like, no, I smell like a whiff of vanilla, like vanilla. And then you were like, oh, my God, I caught a whiff of that, too. And so we're sitting there and, you know, I caught it. And then like a while later, you know, you didn't smell it and caught it again. And what did you say? You were like, is Nicole in there making cookies or something? Yeah, the thing that made it a little bit immediately identifiable is because you've got two very prominent smells going through that backyard. One, which was the campfire, the wood burning. And then secondly, like our cigars. And none of those cigars came close to that waft of vanilla. No. Like fresh bakery that flew through there. That was strange. It was. So then where does our mind go to that Mrs. McConnell from the Airbnb portrait followed us and haunted us, and it's the smell of vanilla and cookies from her kitchen that she baked in, and that she only comes around and haunts us when we're all three together. And I mean, it sounded stupid repeating it, but we're around that campfire that night. Convinced of it. A hundred percent. Shit. This is a possibility. Like, what if this is real? For those of you that, that might just be, you know, joining the podcast a couple episodes ago we talked about our trip to Galena Illinois and we were staying in an Airbnb that we thought might been haunted built in the early 1800s And in one of the hallways above the stairwell was this old school looked like an oil painting of what we believe might have been one of the original owners of the house But she kind of resembled like a like a female version of a Mitch McConnell. So, you know, one of the jokes that we had leaving Galena was that, man, we don't want to, you know, antagonize anything and have it attached to us and have us follow anywhere else. And then here we are out at Flip N Out Pinball headquarters. in the middle of the night, camp firing it out, a couple weeks removed from that trip, to smell the sweet smell of vanilla and fresh-baked items. But it kept coming through. It would disappear. And then we were like, okay, that must have just been an anomaly. And then we wouldn't talk about it for a little while, and then it would kick up again. Dude, it was super creepy. Where were we at? Because there was nothing, nothing. There's no reason that we should have ever smelled that. There was nothing around there. And we're not in close proximity to anything. No. Even where we were sitting, we were way far away from any other house. I guess – I don't know. I don't know what it was, but it was – it certainly sent a message for me, and I'm starting to realize that maybe I'm just scared of too many ghosts and supernatural things. But it was creepy. It was definitely creepy. It was. It was. But yeah, so that was our trip down to Zax and stuff, which was good, good. It was a good rejuvenation work-wise, life-wise, all that stuff. So a much-needed trip and a much-needed gathering for all of us, I think. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun. And you know what, Nicole, very hospitable when we were out there. Oh, amazing. She's busting ass working, and she still took the time to check in and make sure that we didn't need anything or we weren't put out by any means. Yeah, took care of us, snacks, all kinds of stuff. I mean, she did it up right for us. so greg you had brought up something that i thought was an interesting topic and then at some point it just occurred that this is something that we should probably discuss on the podcast and the topic being which modern spike 2 lcd games from stern pinball will be considered classics in 10 years so stern pinball spike 2 which of those games are going to stand the test of time Now, the easy way for those of you that don't understand the difference between Spike 1, Spike 2, Spike 3, the Spike system is the modern-day Stern operating system. Spike 1 consisted of DMDs, like your digital, your dot matrix screens. And it wasn't all those. A lot of those were SAMs, but it was the later on Game of Thrones. Yeah, like Transformers was Spike 1, I think. Yep. Yep. Spike 2 was the transition into LCD. So anything with an LCD screen on it, Spike 2, it's probably what a lot of you are just familiar with over the past, I don't know, five, ten years. And then just recently, Spike 3 has rolled out with Star Wars Fall of the Empire, which a little bit bigger screen, better graphics, better sound, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So we're kind of concentrating on what a lot of people considered the games that really helped propel pinball and keep it moving forward in the 2000s, right? Yeah, yeah, I agree, man, because, I mean, what was that first? I don't know if it was the first Spike 2, but I guess technically the first LCD was Batman 66. I could be wrong. It was a Batman 66 or was it Aerosmith? Because at some point I thought I remember Aerosmith being in there. But I mean, for the sake of this conversation, that's not really even completely important. No, you're completely right. Now, but what I did want to just quickly and I'm going to let you get into this, obviously, because this was your your topic and I'm loving it. I wanted to start off because you were wondering what are going to be the classic games from that Spike 2 era. And I went in and I immediately I wanted to see what the dictionary version of classic was. And the dictionary version, classic obviously being an adjective, simply says judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind. So I don't know how you want to break this down. In my eyes, I'm going a little bit earlier on in the Spike 2 realm for two or three games that I think will stand the test of time and will be deemed classics throughout history. Some of the newer stuff might be – arguably is even better than the games that I have in my mind, but I think the ones that I'm selecting have already kind of stood a small time period test of time and are still popular titles, whereas the newer games, the jury is – it might still be out. Yeah, I agree. I mean, there's honestly quite a few titles that fall in there. And having a game that does stand that test of time, that's kind of a tough thing. And we're not, to me at least, not saying that it's still not going to be a game that people want to play, that it just falls off the face of the earth. But what is something that's like Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars? Do any of these Spike 2 games, do any of them fall within that category? You know what I'm saying? Like, will any of those last in 10 years to where that you're still clamoring for that game? And then when you see it, you're like, oh, OK. Yeah, that's that's great game still. When I first thought about this, my initial impact was that, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of games that I'd want to talk about. But then I had to take a step back and be like, sure, there's a bunch of great games. And I would say arguably most all a pinball is going to offer you something that's fun and redeeming. It's just what is going to last the test of time. And again, this is going to be very subjective. So take it for what it's worth. Myself and Greg have a lot of similar tastes, but we also have I'm sure we're going to have some disagreements here and that'll make for some fun conversation. And also we'd like for you know, we encourage you to offer your feedback. You can go ahead and hit us up at flipping out pinball podcast at Gmail dot com. And you can offer questions, comments, observations, and perhaps we'll read your comments. on the show, but when it was all said and done for me, there were a lot fewer that I thought qualified for this instant classic. I know when we first started discussing it, I was, I kind of thought, okay, this is going to be, you know, kind of a, a more lengthy discussion. And there's going to be, you know, like you said, like, there's going to be a lot of, a lot of conversation about a lot of games, but when you really break it down, a lot of the games are very good, But when you factor in things like, you know, the theme, the theme is going to be huge, I think, in whether it stays a classic or not. You just take how good the game plays, how well it was received, how well it's still received now after a few years on some of these titles. It's really a small, very, very, very small list out of those Spike 2s that are a potential classic to me. the biggest criteria that I use when selecting this list, because I knew that we were going to be talking about these games today simply was how many of these games do we have in stock of flipping out pinball? Because we obviously want to talk up the inventory that we need to get rid of. I'm just kidding. I was like, Holy shit. I was like, okay, we're going there. Instant classic. All right. I am ready to have some fun with this. I don't even know if I have an order, like a top three or like three, two, one. I just, I would love for you to select the game. Maybe I'll select the game. We'll go back and forth. And if we have a similar game on the list, we can talk about that and see how it goes. Unless you have a different way you want to approach this. I mean, I think elephant in the room. We just get it out of the way because I don't think that there's going to be a single person argue. No sense in saving best for last. Anything. Does it start with a G? Do what? Does it start with a G? Yes. Yes. So, I mean, I think that anybody listening, anybody that's ever touched the game, anybody that's ever read a forum or a Facebook group, Godzilla. Godzilla is going to be, hands down, a classic. I mean, I already think that it is a classic, that that game's been out for a significant period now. It's still selling well, still holding value well. And it's just hard to beat. And that's one of those ones that I think is a little bit of an anomaly because, again, I know that on separate occasions, stuff that we've talked or discussed with other people even, nobody was really clamoring for a Godzilla. Pinball machine is a theme. But what Elwin and the entire team there did with that, it elevated that game so much and is such a good shooting game. The rules are so good that it took what was kind of what I would call maybe a lackluster theme and just elevated it. And I don't think that Godzilla was a bad enough theme that it had any trouble really overcoming that. You know what I'm saying? because we're all familiar with that because sometimes when you take a game no matter how good it is and you've got a bad theme it's just hard to overcome that theme regardless but but godzilla to me was not a bad enough theme that it had any trouble really overcoming that obstacle once the game got in people's hands that code started mature people shot it fell in love with it well and if you remember you said it perfectly there's not a whole lot i can add to that you You covered most of my talking points, but you were talking about like the first impression being the theme and the license. And most of the pinball community, they weren't clamoring for a Godzilla pinball machine necessarily. So, again, it had that going against it when it was released. The other thing you'll remember, and this is something to really consider. When the game was revealed and people saw the art package, there was a little bit of, I don't want to say blowback, but maybe a little bit of confusion on the color palette choices for that game, where it was a little bit more vivid than some people might have, you know, envisioned a, a Godzilla pinball machine. Now, the art, the art package is nice, but again, the license was your first impression visually was the artwork, which it's not that it was bad artwork. It was just that people were envisioning something different from the colors. So that was working against it. Initially you come full circle though. And now you've got Keith Elwin on that game. who is the juggernaut designer at Stern Pinball right now. Then you go ahead and you put his team on that game with an incredible rule set. People start coming around to something that maybe they were a little bit on the fence with in the beginning, but now they start seeing gameplay. They start appreciating that art package. They start thinking to themselves, Godzilla is a great selection because it's kind of a quirky theme that you can have some fun with. You throw in a little blue oyster cult. And now you've got a game that under most circumstances, under like your initial first impression, might not have been something that would have been thrilling, ending up being one of the more classic pinball machines of not even just the modern day era. Right. But I mean, of all time, of all time. So, you know, consider that when you're when you're digesting a game and its initial impact. These games will get legs a lot of the time where you see this kind of post reveal surge. Sometimes, quite honestly, it's just a little bit too late for the legs to be gotten, you know, because there's new stuff that's coming out. People tend to forget. So, you know, the timing's critical. But Godzilla, you know, from the first original impact, definitely, and I don't want to even say rebound because it was never crushed. It just didn't jump out ahead like you might have expected, a highly anticipated Stern reveal. Yeah, I mean, you're exactly right, Ken. You know, it kind of had a lot going against it in a sense. So for that to overcome that and people fall in love with it and, you know, sometimes things like that grow on you too. you know not only a theme but like you said the color everything you mentioned um the coloring of that that palette it just it grows and you start to fall in love with it even more yeah for sure for sure i mean when you look at it now it it all fits it all makes sense and and it's a it's a great game yeah i agree and so you know i i guess that that kind of what we'll do is we'll just kind of run through some of these games and then just you know go go from you know hey classic could it be a classic too early that sort of thing yeah yeah we'll just throw some games out there and what what are your what are your thoughts on this game i'm excited to see how you answer this because i can see how all in you are but i can also see where you have kind of your hesitancy and reservations and that would be jurassic park so i knew that was gonna gonna pop up um i'm i'm i actually think that it could be a classic and i'm definitely separating myself from the theme on there but i do think that it is a strong enough theme because it's jurassic park it's dinosaurs and that is another game that's very similar to godzilla in the aspect that that game still sells very well uh yeah people are still buying it people are still wanting that in their game rooms and things like that to where i might not have initially said that it was a strong enough theme to be a or not a theme but a strong enough game to be a classic i think with the sales over the years that the sales that are continuing to come out with that game um i think i think it will be i really do and i think with it being another elwyn i think most elwyn things just because it's him and they're so good i i think they're going to be kind of instant classics for the most part Yeah, well, that pedigree, it's built in. You know, it's a lot of people are anticipating those Elwynn releases. The things that I liked about Jurassic Park, you know, you didn't get a lot of the movie assets that you might have preferred. And I think that would be the one thing that might potentially hold that back for me and probably for you, too. But yeah, they didn't incorporate enough. And I've bitched about that plenty. They didn't incorporate enough of the film in there, not just clips or anything else. It was just like it's almost standalone dinosaur IP wrapped around Jurassic Park in a sense. So I've never been real wild about that. Like I would still like in a full on Jurassic Park, Jurassic World. That is the movies. You know what I'm saying? So that that's why that I kind of on the fence always about that and whether it would be a classic and kind of stand the test of time. But again, I think just with the sales numbers and, you know, the game itself, Elwyn involved, it's still Jurassic Park. park i think it will it's it's kind of it's kind of the genius of it in my eyes it's like so these are the assets that you negotiated and this is what you brought to the game and at the end of the day where yeah i would have loved to see the movie scenes man the game is just so nice it's so fun to play and and i get that jurassic park feeling right when you hit the start button you're going right into the drastic yeah you get the john williams score so i mean that that does help elevate it so if you get to see the island the helicopter um so i mean no there's a lot uh going on there but that separation it was so refreshing to get just a unique layout yes it you know it wasn't a fan layout there are shots in there that are a little bit more difficult to hit but they don't really upset you you're not getting pissed off because you know that when you when you earn that shot it's it's fulfilling and you feel like you did something good the other thing that i wanted to bring up too which i think is important because at one point i had owned a jurassic park pro but then when i was streaming back in the day believe it or not for flipping out pinball everything comes full circle um zach had had us unboxed an le and we were streaming an le and look if you have the ability to go to a premium or le i recommend it you get the motorized t-rex you get the velociraptor pit with the gate and whatnot but the pro is an amazingly satisfying game like i just if had i never played the le i would have never thought that i was missing anything and then after playing the le in the premium i could see some of those cool features but i didn't feel like i was getting a lesser experience really from a shop perspective at all on that on that pro model so yeah it's just it's just a really it's one of those games where if if you're a first-time pinball buyer i i think that that's a great game and if you're somebody that's a seasoned pinball collector i think that's a great game it's it's very unique in that aspect yeah i agree and then you know staying on that that elwyn train you go into something because this is one that i'm kind of on the fence on but but i'm leaning towards classic is jaws because jaws is just a classic in in general just from the theme um you know it is a little bit more of a fan layout than what most elwyn stuff is to me you know there there one or two unique shots you got the reel in there and you got some stuff uh you know elizabeth did a fantastic job on the code that code has continued to develop really well but i still just don't know like there's nothing in there i don't know if there's enough in there that's super wow like as fun as it is and as much as i love that game will it will it be a classic i i don't because i mean sales on that are freaking great too i mean especially with the ridiculous the 50th really just created a whole nother resurgence and i don't have a lot of time on jaws during the time jaws was released i was working at a competing pinball company so it's just one of those things i didn't get to play it i was talking to zach zach was talking about shipping a jaws here so it'll go to flipping out pinball studio c here in saint charles and i'm just looking forward to kind of getting into that so oh dude it's great anybody's on the fence if anybody's on the fence of jaws you know come with me on my journey reach out because i'll be happy to share my feedback uh be very transparent very honest about it but i just i can't wait to to get into it and be able to see what it's all about oh you're gonna love it like code structure and everything i mean it's phenomenal to me that is one of and maybe maybe i'm just a little harsher because of the pro i think your premium le is where it's at on that game um i know that just a shark comes out you bash it boat goes you know he goes back down boat goes back down right uh you know then there's the upper play field that doesn't you know you wouldn't think would be that much but but those two things for whatever reason really add a lot to that game over the pro so i mean i think i'm leaning towards classic on that just because of the theme it's still an elwynn game the code is still fantastic it still shoots good but it to me it's just it's more of a very basic Keith Elwin. I think it's kind of the most basic game he's done. Maybe even more so, I don't know, I might be speaking out of turn here on this. Maybe a little more basic than Iron Maiden? Okay. I don't know. I don't know if I can say that. I might have to ponder it more. But yeah, where do you lean on Jaws? Classic? Not classic. Honestly, it's it's still too close to call it's so early on in the jaws life cycle i don't know and then again just full transparency without me having a lot of time on it i don't know that i could say you know definitively in my mind that it would be a classic or not be a classic um you know i i'm just kind of reading and and it seems to be for the most part uh widely enjoyed and accepted and heralded as one of the great stern games elwynn games modern day pinball machines and that's cool you know they got it right people were talking about jaws forever stern pinball delivered with the jaws title i think even down the road i think sales are that that's again why i'm leaning towards classic too on that uh because i do agree with you i think it's a maybe a hair early on that game which a lot of these are going to be but but again sales are so freaking strong on this and it's been out for a while like to me that's just a telltale sign you know and It's staying in people's collections. A lot of people don't trade it in. So to me, the enjoyability of that is so strong. I'm going classic on it. I think it's going to be a classic. I think you're going to see Jaws, and you're going to still want to play it in 10 years. Let's go back in time. I'm going to throw one at you. At the time, maybe polarizing release, popular release, kind of some ups and downs. and I think when it was all said and done, a success. But is it a classic? And that is Stern Pinball's Stranger Things. I don't think so. Not a classic. I don't think it's going to be a classic. I think it's a great game. It's honestly one of my favorite games. It's got a lot going for it. The code really matured on that game. I actually love the code. but i just i think anything that's tv show like that eventually jumps the shark even as popular as that show is we're coming out with the final season this year uh sort of thing not to take anything away from the game because it's phenomenal i still own mine i've had the game forever and uh it's actually my second one i own because i sold it early on after it first came out and then regretted it got everyone had it for forever now but i don't know if it'll be a classic because shows eventually kind of wean off you know what i'm saying as a pinball person i will still enjoy that game 10 years but as a just like a classic that you hear something about like medieval madness attack for mars those sort of games i i don't know if it falls in that realm yeah i think the uh well i mean stranger things is such a big it's such a big part of like pop culture and uh But every time a new season releases, the game has another resurgence. People are buying. But it's been a pretty consistent seller. I mean, since I've been here anyways, I've seen Stranger Things consistently selling. No, it sounds good because it's still a great game. All of these are really good games, minus one or two are just okay games. But every game that's going to be on this list is a freaking good game that you're going to want to own at some point in your life. but i think to separate it as a classic like that again like what your definition was of standing the test of time standing the test of time yeah yeah i mean i still gotta leave the weapon three my favorite game one of the oldest games that i've gotten my collection okay okay okay okay okay yeah exactly okay okay i won't say that that's a classic but it's a fantastic game and it will never leave my collection you know what i'm saying that is not a classic yeah it does because it's a classic for you it's uh the same way like i love x files you know what i mean it's a classic for me but i'm probably not recommending x files for you know most people that want to get into pinball but jumping back to stranger things it was exciting when it released because it was it was brian eddy's like come back to pinball and this was the the designer that had medieval madness and attack from mars and the shadow and and there was this huge amount of anticipation to see what brian was going to do with uh with stranger things and you know for some it hit for some it was a miss demogorgon shot proved to be tricky at best in the beginning until that guy got dialed in i like that they focused on the darker side of season one and i know that didn't appeal to everybody where some people wanted the more fun retro kids having fun type of an approach i like the dark side of stranger things i love that it was uh season one when i consider everything i i don't believe it to be a classic per se because again it's not even the easiest shooting game but it's it's a challenging game and it's and it's fun it's one of those games where you have to sit down you've got to play it and find your shots and know where the risk versus reward areas are at and then you're going to be fine you step up it initially you know what and then the third thing was this and and i didn't i didn't really consider this at the time because i was very familiar with the theme and i was very um you know up and up about stranger things in general at the time that would have been and i think i when i on my old podcast i was talking about one of the dream themes that i would love to see come to pinball would be stranger things and obviously eventually it did i don't think it did a very good job and if this may have changed with code updates it didn't do a very good job of telling the casual player who did not know what the theme was about what the heck was going on you didn't like you were just kind of you had to have a background of stranger things to have any type of connection to what was happening on the lcd or the story yeah i mean i think that's anything like that that that has a theme like that if you're not familiar with it um i mean the the code the code i mean progressed significantly I mean, I think it's a really great, I think it's really good code in there, but it is, you know, I think anything like that, you're going to be a little lost if you don't have a connection with the theme at first, or you're not familiar with it. Because I mean, you know, most things that are going to be in there are going to be related to the show. So if you're unfamiliar with it, it doesn't really make any sense, but you know, it's still, it's very easy code set to understand. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm just like, if you're walking up to that, there's like a bald kid walking around. Then there's like a flower thing coming out of a wall. Then you're in a lab and there's monsters. It's like, what? This place is crazy. Yeah, anything like that's not going to make any sense to you. Fair enough. Fair enough. But another Brian Eddy game, and I don't think this one, I don't think this just, I mean, based on some sales stuff, still not a bad game. Still a good game. Just not everybody's cup of tea. The Mandalorian. And I don't think that's going to be a classic. I think it's going to be another one of those things, too, where the theme, you know, it'll still mean stuff to a lot of people, but it's still going to kind of falter a little bit just theme wise. And we've already seen, you know, that game dip pretty low in the used market and so forth. So I think that one's just an easy to say not a classic. Yeah, I think if you're a Star Wars fan and Mandalorian is up your alley, that's a great game. Go out and jump on it. You're just going to appreciate it. It's so much easier to get into a game in which you have a connection with the license or the theme, for sure. For me, I wasn't a Mandalorian person. I had never really seen the series, so it's hard for me to get behind the Mandalorian from a licensing perspective or theme perspective. It shot fine. You had that big rotating vertical play field that kind of went up, which was interesting. That was not anything that I'd ever remember seeing, so I appreciated Brian kind of thinking outside of the box on that. But yeah, I would agree. Fun game, but it's not anything that I think in 20 years people are going to be going out of the way to try to snag up for their collection. I agree. I agree. And then we shift over. We shift over a little bit and go over to some Gomez stuff here. Deadpool. Deadpool. I love Deadpool, man. One of my favorite games. I love Deadpool. but i just don't know i don't it i don't know if it's still classic material because it's still goofy it'll still remain an amazing game uh it'll still be a lot of fun it's still quirky again one of my favorite games that won't leave my collection another one of those but i don't know if it's a classic will you look at it in 10 years and go deadpool hell yeah even though marvel marvel still stands the test of time with most things but i still i'm not i'm not sold that deadpool's a classic a couple things that i love about deadpool that really hooked me in right away and that was the audio package by jerry thompson is just sick on deadpool i mean it's one of those games where the game just it thumps it rocks uh mech suit multiball one of the more fun multiballs that i've ever been able to start because sometimes you need that feedback man you need that like that thing that creates an emotion and gets adrenaline going when you get into a special moment and i and i loved that that sound and everything when mech suit multiball started i i like the approach with chuck ernst and team you know graphically it was something different it was like that 16-bit era where initially i didn't really care about like the fighting scenes like oh that's i don't know but you know what it works out well actually i i enjoyed it you know and i'll finish up with uh even like disco mode on uh that game especially in the premium where you have the rotating disco ball and you now you've got lighting flying around your room i love that game i'm also wondering if i thought it was more impactful at the time that it was released versus now uh i i don't know how it holds up so as much as i think it's still impactful i i think it's still a great game still a decent i just don't know that i could call it a classic to be honest i don't know that i could i'm i'm in that exact same boat you know staying on Gomez 007. Another game that I thoroughly enjoy. Obviously, James Bond is a classic theme. I think a cool shooter, man. It's a neat layout. I love that mid-ramp sort of... It's not really a diverter, but the ball can go multiple paths on it. So I guess you kind of call it a diverter. Another one, I don't know if classic. I don't know if people will be looking at that in 10 years and go, okay, that's a classic, or it's just a pinball machine I like to shoot. All in all, I tend to like George Gomez designs. There's always a little bit of quirkiness that you try to figure out, but I do like his designs. To just be short on this one, though, yeah, I don't think 007 is, again, the classic game. I was going to say, if you're a fan of James Bond, though, it's great that you have a modern-day pen made by one of the most prolific designers and engineers in the industry. Yeah, it's still a great game. Like I said, it's sitting behind me, literally behind me right now. Led Zeppelin, I think definite, not classic. I still don't mind the code on there. I kind of like it. It is kind of a sparse shooter, not a lot going on. But again, I personally do like the code, but kind of mutually hated by a lot of pinball people out there. Mutually hated. Interesting. Yeah, that one's not going to go. Back over to a Borg. Turtles. Turtles you would kind of think, but I think that that game is so freaking difficult. I enjoy it. Very frustrating game. I don't know if I've ever met a game that I've wanted to flip the fuck over so many times in my life and just bash it with a hammer. Is that what's going on? Yeah. You don't like that one, huh? A little frustrating? It'll be so tough. I actually had a guy that called in and wanted a Turtles as his first game and never really played Pinball. I was like, no, no, don't. It's like we needed to buy another one at some point. At Flip N Out Pinball, we're going to give you the most honest answers. Things that might shock you, we're going to give you honest answers on. And I just straight told that guy, like, hey, I'd love to sell you one. I'll still sell you one. But that's not the game for you, man, being a new pinball player and this being your first game. Just not the game for you. You know, going back to Borg, when Munsters came out, like, I know there was a lot of hype on Munsters. And at the end of the day, I don't know that that panned out how everybody expected it to go. And then recently, and hear me out on this, Metallica remastered. They remastered this Spike 1 game into a Spike 2 game. I think classic on Metallica. Yeah, it has to be a classic, right? Yeah, because they remastered. I think Metallica is a classic. Man, that layout is just fantastic. I know some people say, well, it's like chopping wood. I freaking enjoy it still. I love that code set. You know, lime and sheets on that. You just can't get much better than Metallica. Great game. Great game. Definite classic in my eyes on that one. Monsters, like you said, probably not so much. Actually, one of the more forgiving Borg shooters. I freaking actually love that layout and love the way that game shoots. That's one of the smoothest left ramps, especially for a pop-up ramp. Even that 180 ramp is smooth on that game. So good, man. One of the best layouts. I just hate that they hindered that code so much on that game. That Franchi artwork package on that game is pretty sick, too. And then they had the black and white option that you could get, which was polarizing at the time. You know what? I'm not a big fan of the lower playfields and that. I just don't like them. I agree. Usually ever. I agree. Aerosmith. Fun game. You know, it is still clamored. I think just because there's not so many of them on there. I don't know if it would be considered a classic. Maybe. Maybe not. Still a little unfair out of the pops, that sort of thing. How about this one? Because this is one that I love and I've owned twice and I would own it a third time. Elvira's House of Horrors. i i think so i think so yes so do i it's a it's a good game it's campy and because of the lineage of the other elvira games i think it kind of throws it in as an instant classic now if they would have if nordman's them would have fucked it up really bad then i would say no but i mean it's it's a good game and i think because of scared stiff elvira and the party monsters that sort of I do think it's a classic. I think it's one of the few that go in there. Classic in 10 years. It's, you know, all those like cheesy old horror movies. Those are fun to see even repetitively on the backbox and just listening to those quotes and whatnot. And, you know, there's some family friendly concerns there just because of the risque nature of the backbox. That's not terrible. No, it's not. That game, honestly, Greg, is like is a and I've said this before. It's a party in a box and it's so fun and it's very accessible as far as shots. It'll make you feel like you're a competitive pinball player and it's just, it's just fun. And that's a Lyman sheets game too, I believe. Yeah, it is something in that realm that sort of is a remake type thing Black Knight I don think Black Knight falls I think Black Knight 2000 kind of remains a classic but I think Sword of Rage maybe not so much Brutal game, still fun. I enjoy it. Actually, I really like Black Knight Sword of Rage. I do too, but I have a classic. I have a fun time playing it, but no, it's not a classic, but there's some cool things going on on that game. If you have not played one, I think that it didn't get the credit that it deserved, and I would recommend going out and checking it out. The code is cool too, And that was where you really started seeing an uptick in graphical presentation and animation on these back boxes. And I think you had Ed Ed Robertson from Barenaked Ladies at the time. He was a voiceover guy for one of the characters in the game. So it's a cool game. I like that game a lot. It is cool. It is cool. But not a classic. I agree. Not a classic. Another one. This is probably one of the only. I mean, Iron Maiden is going to be a toss-up. But Avengers, no, I didn't care much for the artwork. I don't think it's Avengers-esque enough. It didn't fit the comics enough. Iron Maiden, I don't think so. I think it'll hold its place because it's an amazing game. It's Elwynn's first game that went into production, so I think that it'll hold a classic-ish feel and mantra. Do you think it's because it's Iron Maiden holding that back from being classic? Because let's say it was any other band. Let's say you had that layout and let's say it was like Pink Floyd or Ozzy Osbourne. Yeah, I think that it holds it back a little bit. I love Iron Maiden, big Iron Maiden fan. But I think that overall Iron Maiden might be what holds it back a little bit. Yeah, I agree. Beatles? I mean, Beatles already based on a classic game, but I don't know if Beatles will be a classic itself. No, Beatles isn't a classic, but I'll tell you what, if you ever get a chance to get a Beatles, pick up a Beatles. It's fun as hell. I love playing Beatles. It's gorgeous. It's gorgeous and fun. It's not as simple as you think, and it's fun. No, it's not. Great audio and great artwork, yeah. Yeah, they did amazing with it. The turnoff with that game at the time was the price point it released at because it didn't have a ramp, and then people were thinking, well, if you don't have a ramp, then evidently it should be thousands of dollars off. But a ramp is maybe $15 to $40 in your bill of materials, so it is what it is. Yeah, I never look at stuff like that. That stuff angers me when people get into that. I'm like, eh, still, I'll always argue a fun game is a fun game. I don't care what the BOM is on it and so forth. How about Batman 66? Oh, shit, yeah, we didn't go there. Oh, yeah, I think so. I think it's a classic. I know it's a re-theme. Yeah, I did too. But I think it's a classic. That game's fun. Another cool-ass Lyman Sheets code set in there. Gomez, great layout. very unique layout in that and i just it's hard to beat it's hard to beat the beauty of that it's hard to beat the theme there's a lot going on on that game that that i i like the the theme nails it for just about any pinball enthusiast most of those guys in that age demographic grew up in some sort of batman 66 the amount of clips and and just assets that are in the game is is ridiculously off the charts and it it just it just feels good um i did want to really quick and we can wrap this up talk about uh jack danger we haven't really mentioned any of his pinball machines uh the two that would be most prominent obviously being foo fighters and x-men and i'm just kind of curious to get your feedback on those and how they kind of rank in the in the hierarchy i don't think x-men i mean you know it's still early that that code's still developing and you know the the latest release was was great on that game i still think it's a fun game very unique shooter same thing with foo fighters i think both of those like like jack danger did things in those games that i i don't think most of us would have conceived of if we were designing a pinball machine it's just such unique flowy whimsical shots that are just fantastic but something just didn't resonate with people with those i mean foo fire is still a good game i know zach loves foo fighters but i also watch a lot of people you know they they buy that game they own it for a while but it wears thin quickly you know still fun game at first but then kind of falters off uh with with with foo x-men i still think i i can't say it won't be a classic you know i think it just kind of got a bad rap from the start a little bit when you know and it taking dragon getting some code out and so forth but i think that it's still got a lot of potential because of those shots i think it shoots better than foo fighters i like the the layout a lot more yeah i think that layout's key right it's it's so it's so out of the box and polarizing and different and refreshing especially for somebody that has a large pinball collection and you want to add something that that just approaches that italian bottom third of the game differently uh tremendous risk when you do something like that but i think that design wise uh it played out well and when as that code evolves I think that that could potentially have a second sales, third sales cycle as far as just getting some more legs. Well, you're not wrong. And we already saw it pick up again with that latest code update. Again, a massive improvement. But I think you throw – Absolutely right. Yeah, and one more good code update. I think it could – still too early to tell. Classic on that one. Yeah, I would agree. But Foo Fighters, look, when it came out, I was like, okay, I enjoy Foo Fighters. Like I just kind of, I liked their music. It was genius how they took an original theme with the whole alien thing and just, and just threw Foo Fighters stuff over it and made it a Foo Fighters fun shooting pinball machine. I really enjoy shooting Foo Fighters. So it's like, is it a classic? I don't know that it's a classic, but if you're looking for music pins, I mean, I mean, that's one of the games that I would always recommend would be Foo Fighters. Yeah. A lot of people do love it. Uh, you know, and, and I like shooting it. I just, I like shooting it too. It doesn't, uh, it almost has in a sense, a, uh, off the stern subject, but almost has like a Guns N' Roses feel to me, to where like, okay, it's fun at first, but for some reason it doesn't have staying power for me. Okay, I got you. I can see that. So that's why I don't think classic on that one. Even though it's fun and it's worth owning, I don't know if it's got the staying power in there. I would own it. I like it. It might not be my only game if I had a one-pin collection, but if I have multiple games, I would definitely give a shot at Foo Fighters. Yeah. I guess finally the elephant in the room would be Star Wars, original Star Wars, Steve Ritchie. I don't think so. I don't think so. Again, another game I love, but I think all the hate surrounding it with code and people seemingly, which I still don't understand, like we discussed before. Yeah, we like Star Wars. Yeah. Not a lot going on in there. Buttery smooth, though. I think a fun game. I still don't think classic in there at all. i i agree you know it's when you think about it you look and and i think this is it right as far as what we're going to discuss uh title wise spike 2 elwyn's got the bulk of these perceived classic titles and uh you know i'm surprised that Steve Ritchie isn't in there on there somewhere i think where you would get into Steve Ritchie's heyday at stern pinball you'd be back down to like acdc yeah you get into those sam games the dmd is that sam or spike one yes i i agree and Maybe we'll have to do those too. Those are worth noting and going into and maybe go through some of those, maybe something after the White Star and go into those Sams and maybe talk about those because those are some of my favorite games personally in there. But, yeah, I mean, Elwynn, I think, rounded it out. I mean, the only other one to mention kind of in there is the 007, the 60th. Cool game for a single level, just not a classic to me. Don't think that'll work. King Kong too early Dungeons and Dragons too early on those those just came out both games I'm loving Kong right now like I can't wait to do a straight down the middle review on King Kong I think you are loving King Kong right now yeah I didn't give it a chance that's on me but I I just brought it home from uh I had it out on location for a little bit and just brought it home and dude I'm I'm head over heels on that game but you know I'll save that great discussion for another time but again that and Dungeons & Dragons just way too early to determine if those can be classics. They're still fresh. Yeah, I would agree. If we missed something or if you have an opposing opinion or you just want to back us up on what we were speaking about today, again, you can send us an email, and that is flippingoutpinballpodcast at gmail.com or go over to Patreon, type in Flipping Out Pinball Podcast. You can join the discussion over there. We're monitoring messages every single day. greg is that time of the week again where we go over the flipping out pinball power rankings power rankings for those of you don't know the power rankings are just most discussed their most requested products at flipping out pinball number five is cactus canyon remake upgrade kit yes i'm getting a ton of questions about the cactus canyon remake kits i am too And that was one of those things that just because it went on pre-sale so long ago, they kind of faltered off. But now that they're shipping, phone and email is just blowing up on them, man. People are wanting them. And I believe we've got Cactus Canyons coming in, the actual remake games, October, November, I think was the latest word from CGC. So if you're on the list, you're looking to get on the list, you can do that now, correct? Yep, yep, that's exactly right. And we're hoping to get more kits here shortly. we don't have an exact time frame yet from CGC, but we're hoping, you know, somewhere in between the two day week time frame. So hopefully we got some more of those in to fill the current orders. And, you know, hopefully maybe at some point have some in stock so we can sell you guys too. Coming in at number four this week, we've got Stern Pinball's King Kong. We were just talking about that in the classic segment. I'll tell you what, when I was down at Flip N Out Pinball headquarters and I was able to stand over King Kong again and really kind of put some time on it, I'm kind of like you. It's not that I just dismissed it originally because I thought it was a fun shooting game. I think my first gameplay was on a Pro and then having to play on the LE. If you have the means, I would definitely recommend the Premium, but they're both great shooting games. Yeah, yeah, that ball lock is nice. The gong is fun to hit through and everything else, and you know, it rejecting you at first until you open it up, and then it'll allow you to pass through. you're not going to go wrong with that pro that pro kind of like a lot of other games walking dead some of these other things is a little bit smoother shooter but both of them are still fun and again like ken said that that ball lock and stuff with the subway is just freaking amazing and kong with his arm coming down just adds that extra element to it but yeah that game that game for whatever reason last couple weeks is kind of we started to see a resurgence i think more people are giving it a chance coming in number three is godzilla another elwyn another elwyn in there no surprise and again like what we talked uh just previously about how that that game still just sells people are still wanting that game and people are wanting that game new used it does not matter they want it in their collection yeah i think outside of uh another game that's going to be number one this week uh godzilla is is what i had the most interest with a bunch of interest in godzilla again lasting power timeless it is arguably the best the best modern day pinball and in our eyes an instant classic instant classic hard to argue when it's still trending as it's trending at number two surprise we got another elwyn game and that is jaws and and that jaws 50th again just popped a whole nother resurgence for sales on the title elwin's dominating on this list this week he's got yeah two three and four positions with jaws godzilla king kong yeah i sold a couple 50th and actually sold a couple um couple regular premiums too that people wanted yes that was nice man still i mean obviously same playing game same shooting game just a little different aesthetics between the two but yeah actually had had both of those going off the rails this week a little bit greg coming in at number one what you got Star Wars Fall of the Empire. Yeah, I don't think really any surprise. Brand new game, right? Just released. Yep. We're always going to get any game that comes out, we're always going to get, you know, those orders are obviously going to be what's flooding in the most in there. You know, I'm still waiting to get some good feedback on that game from some people, you know, once they get their hands on it. One good thing and some news to give, you know, if you guys stuck around through all of our other shenanigans and, and long winded discussions on this podcast, as you're listening to this podcast, uh, most of you should be getting your LE fulfilled here in the next couple of days. So I would expect you to probably get that game. Some of you, if you live close, might, it might hit the docks on Friday. If not, most of you should probably expect your star Wars LEs first to middle of next week. So that's awesome. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. I can't wait to see this. I'm going to have to go down there to Zach so I can flip his. I want to play it. I want my hands on it first. I want that first impression. Yeah, I've been reading some of the reviews online, and, you know, we'll see. It's each his own. I'm curious to see how it turns out. Yeah, they're all over the place. That's what's throwing me off about this game is I don't know who to believe and what to believe because, I mean, it's like starkly different stuff that I'm hearing back and forth. So, you know, and a lot of these people haven't even played it, and they're just speculation, you know, pinball is and people on forums and different things it's just it's all speculation so you know this game is probably one of the most anticipated for me to get my hands on in a long time just just because of that like i i want i want my own opinion on it yep it's the way to go to kind of recap here the flipping on pinball power rankings and it's september 2025 at the number five position cactus canyon remake kits number four king kong number three godzilla two jaws one star Wars Fall of the Empire. Hey, Greg, can I tell you something? I really enjoyed recording episode number nine with you, buddy. Always. And we're getting good feedback. People are loving this. I'm loving it. We do like the feedback a lot, actually. It's good to hear from everybody. If somebody wants to reach out to you and order a game or ask a question, Greg, how can they get a hold of you? Contact King Cromwell and only King Cromwell at King at flip the letter N pinball. I said the letter N pinball. Ken. Well, I guess nobody's going to be getting a hold of you next week because you're going to be at Gulf Shore. So maybe just give my email address for this next week, Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com. So contact Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com. Right. If you want to ask how Greg's vacation is going, you can email me again at Ken at FlippinOutPinball.com. When Greg gets back, you can hit him up and welcome him back to the world of pinball at Greg at FlippinOutPinball.com. go ahead and jump on social media guys uh we're trying to grow the facebook page a little bit you can look us up at flipping up pinball podcast on facebook instagram youtube x if you could just give us a follow or like there it helps the algorithm to get our posts out there to expand our reach and always check out those fantastic used games on that facebook page yes yes yes so if you go to flipping out pinball and you like that page pinned posts all the way up in the top all the used inventory and some of the new inventory too it's updated every single day hourly we you know what i think yesterday greg i think we sold like nine or ten used games like yeah boom in hours so that used inventory is priced to move if you want to get on the interest list because you're looking for a game that is not on the facebook page you can email myself or greg and say hey i would really like to get on that email list for elvira's house of horrors or i'd like to get on that email list for the attack from mars remake we'll add you to the list we'll give you a call when it comes in and hopefully we kind of find your diamond in the rough before it goes up for sale yeah we're movers and shakers when it comes to them used games all right i think this one's a wrap greg uh thanks everybody for listening to the podcast thanks for everybody in the flipping out pinball family if you're considering a new use pinball machine flipping out pinball.com for greg bone i am ken cromwell and don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball so long everybody

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