# The United Kingdom of Pinball - Xmas special!

**Source:** Neil McRae / Great British Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** video  
**Published:** 2025-12-24  
**Duration:** 103m 33s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqrLlXPSLSI

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## Analysis

UK-based pinball enthusiasts Neil McRae, Dave, Chris, and Scott discuss their favorite games from a record-breaking year (10-13 new releases). They praise Evil Dead as a masterclass in design and game of the year, highlight Harry Potter's impressive shooting and theming despite code complexity, and discuss the sustainability of the market's explosive growth. The conversation reflects on both the golden age of pinball and concerns about space constraints and market saturation.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] 10-12 new games released per year now, compared to previous years with fewer releases — _Neil McRae states '10 to 12 new games comes out' every year, noting this is a sustained trend rather than isolated spike_
- [HIGH] Evil Dead is game of the year — _Multiple speakers (Neil, Dave, Chris) call it game of the year; Chris says it 'Blown away by it'; Dave confirms 'I think most definitely is too'_
- [HIGH] Evil Dead's lower playfield is uniquely well-executed and doesn't interrupt gameplay — _Chris extensively praises the lower playfield design: 'I'd love that little playfield on there... They've got it right... It's just right'_
- [HIGH] Harry Potter is the best-shooting Jersey Jack game to date — _Neil states 'I really feel that it's Eric's best shooting game um by a mile'_
- [HIGH] Spooky Evil Dead experienced a magnetic ball issue that was resolved by using Polaris balls — _Neil reports 'we did have one issue with magnetic balls for a bit... Make sure you use Polaris balls in it'_
- [HIGH] Star Wars (Stern) feels rushed compared to Harry Potter and doesn't match the weight of the IP — _Neil compares the two: 'Star Wars... feels like it was it was rushed out a little bit... doesn't quite feel like it hits that mark'_
- [MEDIUM] Harry Potter's topper was a late backup plan after original contractor withdrew — _Neil explains: 'they had contracted somebody to build the topper... there was a late minute change which meant that they pulled out... that topper I think was the backup plan'_
- [HIGH] The UK pinball community is experiencing space constraints due to game release volume — _Multiple speakers discuss space issues; Chris says 'I've just got rid of three games to create space'; Neil mentions 'no more room at the end'_

### Notable Quotes

> "I'm somebody that I play one game. That's what I tend to do, right? So I could have 10 games here and I'll tend to play one game for a month... Evil Dead has just lured me over."
> — **Chris**, ~06:30
> _Demonstrates Evil Dead's unusual power to break Chris's established gaming habits, reinforcing its quality_

> "It's magnificent. They couldn't have put more into it. I think if they had possibly tried I... it's blown me away and I was expecting... greatness cuz everybody built it up so much."
> — **Chris**, ~08:00
> _High praise for Evil Dead's design comprehensiveness despite raised expectations_

> "This feels fast. It feels punchy... the only time you're kind of going across the playfield is for the the hand shot."
> — **Neil**, ~15:00
> _Technical explanation of why Evil Dead's wide body doesn't feel spacious, contrasting with Star Trek Next Gen_

> "That upper playfield, the Quidditch playfield is my favorite part on that game... is one of the better shots in pinball. That's how good that upper shot is."
> — **Chris**, ~25:30
> _Highlights Harry Potter's mechanical innovation, linking upper playfield quality to shot design excellence_

> "Every year it's like 10 to 12 new games comes out and and people wonder why why we're skinn and why we've got no space."
> — **Dave**, ~04:00
> _Captures the market saturation issue driving collector space constraints_

> "I'm probably a different kind of player to most. I don't really play games to get the highest score. I try and play a game to quote unquote complete it. I want to get to the wizard mode."
> — **Scott**, ~42:00
> _Reveals player segmentation: completionists vs high-score chasers, affecting game preference_

> "You need someone that's going to love it because then they can put those details in that maybe you wouldn't you wouldn't think of."
> — **Chris**, ~28:00
> _Explains the value of designer passion for IP fidelity (discussing Eric's approach to Harry Potter)_

> "I think it's a bit of a catch 22 in a way. And um you know, long may it continue, but at the same time, will it... you know?"
> — **Dave**, ~05:00
> _Expresses ambivalence about market sustainability despite enjoying current abundance_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Neil McRae | person | Host of Great British Pinball Podcast; UK pinball enthusiast and operator |
| Dave | person | Panelist; UK pinball collector; Jaws modder; known for critical takes on games |
| Chris | person | Panelist; UK pinball collector; Evil Dead enthusiast; plays one game at a time typically |
| Scott | person | Panelist; UK pinball player; completionist approach to games; values audio design; purchased three new games in 2024 |
| Evil Dead | game | Spooky Pinball title; wide body machine; game of the year contender; released in 2024 |
| Harry Potter | game | Jersey Jack Pinball title; features Quidditch upper playfield; high production values; major 2024 release |
| Star Wars | game | Stern Pinball title; major IP property; criticized as rushed and not matching franchise weight |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Manufacturer of Evil Dead; return to form with 2024 release |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Manufacturer of Harry Potter; known for deep, complex code; multiball-heavy games |
| Stern Pinball | company | Manufacturer of Star Wars pinball; largest pinball manufacturer |
| Eric | person | Jersey Jack game designer; designed Harry Potter and Guns and Roses; IP enthusiast |
| Chris Franke | person | Spooky Pinball artist; created artwork for Evil Dead; praised for exceptional visual design |
| June | game | Recent release; Chris acquired two days before Evil Dead |
| Guns and Roses | game | Jersey Jack Pinball title; complex code; multiball-heavy; reference point for Harry Potter comparison |
| Avatar | game | Pinball game with lower playfield; reference for playfield design critique |
| Elton John | game | Jersey Jack Pinball title; favorite of Neil; different feel from typical JJP games |
| Congo | game | Game with lower playfield that Chris finds interruptive to gameplay |
| Texas Chainsaw Massacre | game | Recent release; Chris road-tested it; found inferior to Evil Dead |
| Looney Tunes | game | Recent release; Chris road-tested it; found inferior to Evil Dead |
| TPF | event | Pinball show event in UK; Evil Dead was on floor for four days; Harry Potter was demoed |
| Pinfest | event | UK pinball event; Neil brought Evil Dead to show |
| UK Open | event | UK pinball tournament; Neil brought Evil Dead |
| Martin | person | Invited to podcast but unavailable due to Christmas commitments; likely UK pinball figure |
| Simpsons Pinball Party | game | Classic pinball game; young visitors at Neil's workshop chose to take this home |
| Beetlejuice | game | Upcoming Spooky Pinball game; community excited about it for 2025 |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Game of the Year 2024, Evil Dead review and reception, Harry Potter review and Jersey Jack design philosophy, Market saturation and collector space constraints, Playfield design innovation (upper/lower playfields)
- **Secondary:** IP theming and artwork quality in pinball, Game code complexity and accessibility, Audio design in pinball

### Sentiment

**Neutral** (0)

### Signals

- **[sentiment_shift]** Strong positive sentiment shift around Evil Dead; exceeded expectations even among informed enthusiasts; represents return to form for Spooky after previous criticisms (confidence: high) — Chris: 'Blown away by it'; Neil: 'I think this is game of the year'; Dave: 'far and away the best work that he's ever done on a machine'
- **[market_signal]** 2024 saw 10-13 new game releases; market sustaining this volume annually; causing space constraints and purchasing decisions for collectors (confidence: high) — Neil: '10 to 12 new games comes out' annually; Dave: 'we're skinn and why we've got no space'; Chris: 'I've just got rid of three games'
- **[design_innovation]** Evil Dead's lower playfield praised as well-integrated mechanical feature that enhances rather than interrupts gameplay; contrasts with Avatar and Congo (confidence: high) — Chris extensively praises: 'They've got it right... It's just right... It's a proper pinball shot... not a gimmick'
- **[product_concern]** Evil Dead experienced magnetic ball compatibility issues; resolved by using Polaris-brand balls; reported as only significant reliability issue on extensively played machine (confidence: high) — Neil: 'we did have one issue with magnetic balls for a bit... Make sure you use Polaris balls in it'
- **[product_strategy]** Harry Potter received significant production investment from Jersey Jack to match IP weight; Star Wars criticized as underinvested and rushed despite being largest IP property (confidence: high) — Neil: 'Star Wars... feels like it was it was rushed out a little bit... Star Wars must be the biggest IP on earth... doesn't quite feel like it hits that mark'
- **[design_philosophy]** Chris argues designer passion for IP is critical to detail quality; cites Eric's approach with Harry Potter (and Guns and Roses) as example of how IP fandom drives superior design (confidence: medium) — Chris: 'You need someone that's going to love it because then they can put those details in that maybe you wouldn't you wouldn't think of'
- **[community_signal]** UK pinball community exhibits distinct player types: high-score chasers (Neil, Chris), completionists (Scott), and operators. Game preferences split accordingly (confidence: medium) — Scott: 'I try and play a game to quote unquote complete it. I want to get to the wizard mode... I'm probably a different kind of player to most'
- **[product_concern]** Harry Potter topper identified as weak point; originally contracted manufacturer withdrew late; resulting backup design doesn't match other recent toppers in quality (confidence: high) — Neil: 'they had contracted somebody... there was a late minute change... that topper I think was the backup plan'
- **[gameplay_signal]** Harry Potter's Quidditch upper playfield shot identified as one of the best shots in pinball; demonstrates innovation beyond mechanical gimmickry (confidence: high) — Chris: 'That upper playfield, the Quidditch playfield is my favorite part... is one of the better shots in pinball. That's how good that upper shot is'
- **[rumor_hype]** Community excited about Beetlejuice from Spooky for 2025; represents confidence in Spooky's return to form and expectation-setting for next year (confidence: medium) — Neil: 'we're all excited about Beetlejuice um for next year'
- **[venue_signal]** Neil operates machines at venue (club) and workshop; Evil Dead at club in mall location; using topper as attraction despite occasional scare factor for passersby (confidence: medium) — Neil: 'We have the topper on in attract mode in the club... it occasionally freaks out the odd the odd person there... we're like come in, come in. We need the money'
- **[sentiment_shift]** Star Wars criticism marks shift in Dave's public opinion; noted as 'most uh derogatory I've ever heard you talk about Star Wars' by Neil despite Dave being original backer (confidence: medium) — Neil: 'Dave, David, you're you're a bit of a critic. This is actually the most uh derogatory I've ever heard you talk about Star Wars. It's the first a backer of that game'

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## Transcript

[music] Although it's been said many times, many ways, merry [music] Christmas to you. Welcome. It's Neil McCrae and I'm here with four inmates from the Pinball Penitentiary somewhere in the UK. It's a secret location. We're all locked up over Christmas. But I'm joined by some fabulous friends. Uh and I'm going to introduce them. I'm going to start. Dave, hello Neil. How you going? I'm good, man. How are you? I'm all right. I'm on my home setup uh today. So, um none of the bells and whistles of my usual podcasting setup. So, if my sound is as bad as it was in in uh the pre-recording, I'm sorry, everyone, but we'll do our best. Chris, welcome. Hello, mate. Thank you. Got to say publicly thank you for lending me Evil Dead. It's uh it's getting some use. It's not even scared. My my younger daughter, she she thinks it's her new favorite game. So, there you go. Yeah, it's more uh I'll be honest with you, partly selfish because I've got nowhere to put the damn thing. But, uh it's true. He hasn't. I went to his lockup a couple of days ago. He we what was there? There was that much room left, wasn't there? And then that's it. There's no more room at the end. I can barely squeeze a pinball in the ball. Not the game. And my partner in crime on on regular um uh kind of so good you can't remember my name. No, no. I I was trying to think of something witty to say and my brain failed me as usual. That will do though, Neil, will it? Hello. Hello, Neil. Merry Christmas everyone. Yeah, of course. I'm uh I didn't even I'm Neil. So So basically this is my crazy idea and uh which was cuz I saw a few of the US guys doing kind of wrap-ups and gang meets and stuff and I thought well we should do one here. I did actually invite Martin a but unfortunately he's uh flat out busy over Christmas. Uh I I last seen in the North Pole helping Santa build toys um is is uh is my understanding. So anyway, good shout out to Martin uh who was the who's the other um criminal that was let let out for good behavior, but otherwise he'd be with us tonight. Um so we're this just a kind of a um bit of fun. We're going to just kind of wrap up the end of the year, talk about a few games. Um get get a different take. I think we've got four wildly variety in terms of game loves and likes. Um but but kind of give our take on it and then towards the end if we've got time we'll we'll kind of make have a quick look to the future. Um but what a bumper year for games. Two 4 6 8 10 12 maybe 13 games released last year. So I mean I I David I remember us being at um TPF when there was a big bunch of games. What was it? Foo fires and a bunch of other stuff. think it'll never be bigger than this. Fiction. Well, that year fiction. Yeah. That year. Yeah. It was crazy. And And now every year it's like 10 to 12 new games comes out and and people wonder why why we're skinn and why we've got no space, why you can't fit a pinball in your locker. Um yeah, it's it's insane. And it's a it's a little bit scary as well. you know, it's sort of one of those ones where you sort of you're loving it, you're enjoying it, but you're wondering whether it's sustainable for the for the hobby as well. So, um it's kind of like it's a bit of a catch 22 in a way. And um you know, long may it continue, but at the same time, will it you know? Yeah. Um Chris, I mean, we were talking about talking about space and and game movement. Um a crazy year, right? It it really is. Um, so I've just, well, as you know, cuz you've taken one and I I've just got rid of three games to create space. We're up to the the eternal space issue here, but um, it's quite interesting actually because I I do think we are in another golden age of pinball and I know it's difficult for for everybody and I know these things are ridiculously priced. Um, but you do it's such an addictive hobby. You sort of do what you got to do. Like I'm just saying, you get rid of games because you bring something else in. And I don't think I've ever been so tempted as I have been for this year and more nervous about next year with some of the games that are planning to come out because you're just thinking how what am I going to do? Where how am I going to get the space? I I you sort of want everything. I think this is the first year where maybe three or four games have come out all in the same year and I've thought I got to have them, you know, but obviously you know you don't have everything. You got to pick and choose which is what I've done. Yeah. And and Scott, I mean, the great thing about this is something for everybody, right? Yeah, definitely. I mean, like, I don't know, like you say that at the same time, you're just like, I want everything [laughter] in the same place as everyone is. No, it's I mean I genuinely like as I said every year like coming out of last year with Jaws and X-Men and and I think what's next you're going to be and you know genuinely an insane number of games and and look let's let's start at the start um with Evil Dead. Chris what what take us through you you've had it for a few days you're probably the freshest to it right terms of newness. What? Give us give us your take on Evil Dead. Blown away by it. It's funny you say that. Take us to the start of the year. You're right. This is this is brand new for me. It is It is the last game I played earlier on today. Um what I would say is I'm somebody that I play one game. That's what I tend to do, right? So I could have 10 games here and I'll tend to play one game for a month. That's just that's just how I play pinball. Then I'll move on to something else. The biggest thing I can say is I got um I got June set up here. You remember this, Neil? They came on the same day. I got the June set up two hours before Evil Dead was set up. Ordinarily, the way I am, I would I would just play June. I'd probably play June until the start of January, then I would go and play Evil Dead. Evil Dead has just lured me over. Like I said, I'm playing both games, but but The Evil Dead, I knew it was good because we saw it at you obviously brought one to uh to Pinfest. Had a little play, but you know what it's like. You're getting drunk. You're speaking with people. You're not paying that much attention to the games. I hear what everyone else is saying about Evil Dead and you look at it and you go, "Yeah, the topper is great." And lower playfield. You saw that little flipper that comes out by the slingshot. Whenever I see anything like that, even sometimes upper playfields, lower playfields, I think gimmick. I I don't care for them. much as how does the game shoot? How does the game play? Um I think that game is magnificent. It's magnificent. They couldn't have put more into it. I think if they had possibly tried I it's blown me away and I was expecting I was expecting greatness cuz everybody built it up so much. Often the best game is the one you're not expecting. So my anticipation was was so high that you think it can't possibly be that good. It really really is that good. I'm I'm And I had I was lucky and I'm very lucky to get exposed to the games I had. I had both Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes both here as well lined up together. So I I got to road test those games. I was amazed how much better this is than them. And there's nothing wrong with those games. This even shoots better. The flipper feels better. Um you want to make the shots. You want to progress. It feels vast. It feels luxurious. It's so big. It's a wide body. and the artwork and just even on the speaker panels and and every even before you get to anything else and then you look and you've got that upper flipper, that little slingshot one is not a gimmick. It's a proper pinball shot. Yeah. And I say this as somebody I get bored of upper and lower playfields very very quickly. So I got really bored of the avatar thing. I got tired and I said that I did a video I got tired of it very quickly. Became a nuisance. I actually thought, well, this is interrupting my game. And even a game I love like Congo, the lower playfield interrupts my game. It's it's an inconvenience. I'd love that little playfield on there. I'm It's just right. They've got it right. You know, like with Monsters, you got the lower playfield and it feels like the ratio to the small flippers and the ball is not right. Yeah, they've got that right. Whatever it is, the weight of the ball's right. Overall, it's an outstanding game. I've been blown away by it. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing. Um, I'll be honest with you. So, I'm a massive Evil Dead fan. I've got like the the Ultra HD Blu-rays. I've got a thing signed by um Sam Ramy. I've got things signed by Bruce Campbell. Bruce Campbell's like a a legend for me. But I tell you what, and and he, you know, he listens to all of us actually. that guy Chris Franche, he absolutely laid out the high addictive cocaine in the artwork because once I I was like spooky g, you know, everyone knows I like reliable games and I was thinking ah spooky evil dead but but the minute I saw it I was like oh my god this is going to be hard to resist as as a fan of the game. And then you know we played the game in Texas and I got very lucky they had one there that wasn't sold. Uh, and I I couldn't have ran to the bank quicker to get the money. I mean, it was like it was just nuts. Um, and I think just to build on on what what you said, the one thing I'll say is even though it's a wide body, it doesn't feel like a wide body in in terms of the ball flow because, you know, you're trying to the way they've laid the shots out there. You know, the only time you're kind of going across the playfield is for the the hand shot. Um, and I think that I think just the way they've laid it out just makes it feel like it's I mean there's definitely space there, but it doesn't feel like you're you're you know that there's too much space. Like if I think about something like Star Trek Next Gen where it feels like the ball takes an age to cross from one side to the other, right? This feels fast. It feels punchy. Um, and again, the thing about having it at home, you just you all these little there's so much detail in the audio um that that they've taken from the movies and, you know, it it feels like you're in in the game. And then they brought out a bunch of accessories for it, which we won't spend too much time on because because we're we're trying to get through a lot, but um Dave, I mean, for me, I I I kind of called it like at TPF and said, I think this is going to be game of the year. I think I think I think most definitely is too. I think it's the one that took everybody surprise. I mean, we were saying Chris about, you know, where Spooky had come from and what they'd been doing up until that point. I don't think that anybody truly expected it to be as amazing as it was. And yeah, like you were saying, Neil, about the artwork, um, you know, I mean, French Frankie's always done amazing stuff, but this is far and away the best work that he's ever done on a on a machine. Um, just everything came together just in the right way. you know, the color scheme. I mean, you know, it's it's quite punchy in terms of how colorful it is, but it's done in a way that, you know, is still sort of very dark and and ominous, you know, with the blues and the greens and the purples and stuff. Um, and yeah, Neil, what you were saying about the sound, I mean, the one that jumps out to me is when you hit when you hit the shotgun shot and those shells drop to the floor. It's just like it's just such a satisfying sound. Yeah. Um, is that because I'm not massive evil I mean I've never seen the movies and I'm I'm very sorry to everybody who's a massive fan and I will get around to it at some point but is that um do you know if that particular sound effect is from the movies or is that one that they sort of well that's definitely in the movie whether that's specific because it feels I don't know what they've done and and whoever did the sound on the game which actually isn't you know you normally hear who does the sound I don't know who did the sound on the game but I agree with you just that shot, you know, the the shells hitting the ground. I was like, you know, that was that was like a a shiver up my spine when I was playing a TPF. I was lucky I got to play it before the crowds were in. Yeah. When the you know, when you're at a show, it's like you're saying, Chris, it's so hard to judge a game on the audio. And Scott, I know for you audio is massive. Um, definitely. The whole the whole um you know, that whole package is great. And then and then you know even even back in March when we played it first um you know the code has come on massively over you know they've got a massive wizard mode and they put a huge video mode and actually maybe a little bit too big because it it goes on for a bit but um you know this is it's hard to challenge the value of that game as you know you could it's almost a game where you you could be a you know you always talk about this what's the one pin you could have. I would definitely put that in there because it's deep. It's got a lot to it and they varied a huge amount. Scott, yeah, it's big regret not getting it to be honest with you cuz my wife I got her to watch Evil Dead. Just Dave, you so you understand it. Don't really bother with the first film. Um there's a bit of history around it, but basically he Bruce Campbell this is got the um rights to make the sequel. Couldn't re wanted to remake the first game film and he couldn't get the the rights to do so. So he just made a sequel, but in theory it's just a remake. So when you watch the second movie, it's just a remake of the first one. So just watch that one. Army of Darkness, which is the third film, or technically the second film if you want to call it that. Um, isn't present in the game, but I think from what I understand, at least from what Bug said, they might actually even do an Army of Darkness now based on the success of this one. Yeah, you'd have to think so. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm sort of I wasn't aware of that fact about the first and second films. That's really interesting. Yeah, I just watched the second one. Honestly, it's it's a good film. I think it's a little dated now. You have to kind of watch it with a little bit of rose tinted goggles as with all things of that era, but I Bruce Campbell's humor is there present as it is in the game. A lot of people said like I remember even on the forums reading it in the UK, they were like, "Oh, it's pretty dry, you know, but that's his humor. That's how he comes across." And if you It's definitely for me, I I think it encapsulates the world. You know what I mean? They really did. I love it when pinball now and I keep I know it's a tired phrase world under glass but it really does feel like they tied everything together. You mentioned the audio Neil like for me everything just like they take everything up a notch like the topper is insane. I' I'd love it but I also think with a three-month-old as it grows older it's going to be absolutely terrified of that thing. It's a [laughter] scary looking topper. Well, I um I So, Evil Dead arrived at the workshop uh this week and I got it set up maybe two or three days ago and I got a visit from um one of the dads who I've now got sort of doing a bit of assembly work for me as well and he sort of been mentioning, oh, you know, I want to come in and get a game and to the house over Christmas. I'm like, great, I need the space. It's all yours, you know, come and grab one. And so, we brought the kids in uh you know, to just have a look around the games and so they could choose. They ended up choosing uh the Simpsons uh pinball party in the end, but they came in and Evil Dead's obviously front and center right at the front of the workshop so that I can, you know, get to it and play it. And the little boy is he's probably like I think seven. Yeah. Took one look at it and you can see he's like just stopped in his tracks and he's like he's not too freaky. It's pretty freaky. It's fine. That's when this does a bit scared of a bit. Absolutely. So, yeah. I haven't put the topper on mine. I don't think I will. Um yeah, just just for situations like that, like we we have uh you know, another personal assembly. She's got a young daughter as well. And um you know, I think I think even just the the artwork on the sides and the front and the back glass are scary enough to put off most kids. So yeah, I think I'll leave the topper for now. We have the topper on in attract mode in the club. Love it. And it occasionally freaks out the odd the odd person there. I wonder what people see when cuz you're it's in a mall, right? So did you just get like general passes by and they see this thing going like that? I just wonder what they're thinking. What the hell is that? Going to get these eyes like that and they're like really? Um it's kind of weird. We're like come in, come in. We need the money. Um but uh look I think a great um I a return to form for Spooky and also the game's I mean I've taken that game to took it to Pinfest. It was at TPF so it was on the floor at TPF for four days. Took it to Pinfest took it to UK Open. It's been in the club. We've had a couple of things, but nothing that that, you know, a game that gets played hard wouldn't you wouldn't expect to see, you know, where a coil slip and a couple other things. But we did have one issue with magnetic balls for a bit. Um, that's the only thing I say about it. Make sure you use Polaris balls in it, otherwise it gets a bit confused. But, um, yeah, I think a great return to form for Spooky and really lines them up. I think we're all excited about Beetlejuice um for next year. We'll we'll maybe try and cover that a little bit towards the end. So, I'm going to I'm just thinking we got so many games and not a huge amount of time. So, I'm going to move us on to I think that another kind of battler for game of the year, uh Harry Potter. Um and you know, I um first of all, Phil and Jack invited a bunch of us. uh to play it, which was a a great uh gig to play it early. And the um the event was really cool and we got to play Harry Potter and I I was super impressed by how the game shoots. I didn't really get a chance to play it as much as I would have liked. So, I've played it elsewhere, but ultimately got a huge amount of I really feel that it's Eric's best shooting game um by a mile and I think you can see that Jersey Jack spent a lot of money on it. Uh Chris, you were there. Um you know, take us take us through Harry Potter. Yeah, I mean a slight disadvantage because we're obviously going to talk about June later and Evil Dead. I've got, you know, two of the games we're going to talk about are here. So, I like it like like everybody else, I I was lucky. I got probably half an hour on my own on Harry Potter, which was brilliant, you know. Um, absolutely brilliant. It did shoot very very well, but it's not enough time to almost even begin to learn the rules. It's a it's a big complicated game. It's it's a visual feast. Um, just talking about the shots I mentioned earlier on about I find sort of upper lower playfields gimmicky. That upper playfield, the Quidditch playfield is my favorite part on that game. And that looped Quidditch shot, never mind upper playfield, is is one of the better shots in pinball. That's how good that upper shot is. It's so good. Um, just innovation again with, you know, like they did with the drumsticks on Guns and Roses that they've got the not wire forms, they got three magic ones. Even little details like when you ball lock one, one of the magic wand tips lights up. Block two, two of them light up. And apparent I I don't know that much about the law of Harry Potter. I've watched it with a kids, but you know you know you know it's like when you're watching stuff with kids, you watch it, but you don't you're not maybe taking everything in. Um they are realistic. They are whatever Hermmanis and Ron's and and Harry's magic wands. They're all different. This is this is good. This is why you need people. I think Eric is good for that because obviously he loved the law of it in the same way that he loved Guns and Roses. You need someone that's going to love it because then they can put those details in that maybe you wouldn't you wouldn't think of. It was very fast. Um I suspect cuz obviously I didn't read the books. I've just watched the films. I suspect if I was going to see one, I haven't played one yet. It would be a wizard one which might appeal more to me because you got that playfield artwork which going to match with the cabinet artwork rather than the book one. But I mean it was it's just a triumph and on on another on another year probably would win game of the year. It it's that good. But this is a really really tough year but I mean just yeah I've got no bad nothing bad to say about it. But I think you need seems very deep. Lot of levels was what are there eight eight films or whatever. There's a lot of stuff to to cram into there. So I think you need to spend a lot of time with that game. But honestly I've not heard anybody say a bad bad word about it but love that Quidditch stuff at the top. Love it. Yeah, I mean I um I have to say I find the code and this is a thing I'd say often about Jersey Jack Games. So it is a super deep game. I mean there's so many things happening and and like Guns and Roses, I just kind of sometimes feel it's a bit overwhelming. It's the only kind of criticism I've got of the game and I'm not a but I'm not a Harry Potter fan fan. In fact, I can't stand the theme if I'm honest with you. [clears throat] um it's it's not something for me, but you know, I played it. I went to um Interior in the US um for an event there and I basically spent the whole afternoon. I spent I put about 50 bucks in it and um it was basically um just just so you know, if you want to decide whether you like a game or not, you've got to put a lot of plays on it because there's so many games that you walk away from. There's so many games that you walk away from uh you know after two plays and then you go back to them you think oh this is great. Um Scott, have you played Harry Potter yet? No, I've only like watched streams and that and it was a tough decision because I ended up buying three new inboxes this year and that wasn't one of them. Um I think I would have gone for it but because my wife is a Harry Potter fan. Um and I I don't mind Harry Potter to be honest with you. I've watched the whole, you know, saga, if you will, from back to from front to end, but I don't know, just for me, Jersey Jacks, I've had them before and similar to you, Neil, I've always been a bit skeptical on the code when it comes to them because they're really multiball heavy and I'm just not I get frustrated with Guns and Roses because I was like every time I wanted to get into a song, I'd start multiball and then I couldn't get into a mode and it felt like an obstacle to getting to the progress. For me, I'm probably a different kind of player to most. I don't really play games to get the highest score. I get I try and play a game to quote unquote complete it. I want to get to the wizard mode. For me, that's my goal when I want to play a game. Um, and I feel like that game I'll probably never get there anyway because the code looks insanely deep. Maybe I'll pick one up secondhand at one point. Um, I feel like like Chris says, and I like what he said there, it's it's a tough competition this year for games and I feel like if it wasn't like this year and it was like the maybe the year before or the year before that, I might have bought it. Um but for me it was just there were other titles I wanted that I went for in the end. Yeah. I mean I think again value one thing I'll say for Jazzy Jack um is they did a phenomenal job of at least I think of making the game look like a game worthy of that franchise. Um you know if I think of Star Wars and we we'll talk about that in a minute. Um, but you know, there's two, you know, Harry Potter definitely feels like, hey, this is a big title. Let's spend some money on it. Star Wars, you know, feels like it was it was rushed out a little bit. Still a great game in my view, but it doesn't feel like it carries the weight of the theme that, you know, with with the I mean, Star Wars must be the biggest IP on earth, right? I would have thought doesn't quite feel like it hits that mark. I I love it, I have to say. But I I feel that, you know, if you put those two games to, you know, fast forward 10 years from now, right? You put those two games together and you're going to say, you know, you might think, well, what were they thinking on the Star Wars side? And I know Dave, David, you're you're a bit of a critic. This is actually the most uh derogatory I've ever heard you talk about Star Wars. It's the first a backer of that game, but we'll get we'll get to that in a bit. Um, Scott, I'm I'm really pleased that I don't I'm not a completionist when it comes to pinball like you are because I'd be a very disappointed player if I was. I'm not 100% sure I've ever gotten to a wizard mode in my life. What? Not even creature. I don't think so. Maybe. You must got You must have spelled film. That's really short code. Oh, yeah. But would you class a wizard mode? That's not It's the closest thing to a wizard creature probably, isn't it? It's the end of the game, so to speak. Anyway, maybe, but like, you know, when people talk about wizard modes, I I button up because I [laughter] can't really I can't really mention one that I've ever been to. What an admission is that? But I always go for the high score. Um, okay. Getting back to Harry Potter. So, I played maybe three games at Expo this year. Um, and I was prepared for it to be like Avatar because it kind of looked like Avatar to me. You know, there was this big jumble of ramps in the back half. Um, it looked really, you know, look too cramped, too complicated. Um, and so I just thought it was going to shoot like Avatar. And I was I was really not a fan of Avatar when I played it at all. Probably for the same reasons you were, Chris. I just didn't think it shot well. I didn't think it was fun. I didn't think it was engaging. Um yeah, but but Harry was um completely different. It shot really nicely. The upper playfield is an absolute dream. I think I only got up there once or twice in those three games, but just the shots up there were so satisfying. Um yeah, I was really jazzed by it in the end. So I'm really pleased uh that they they you know knocked that one out of the park because, you know, it's a massive IP. Um it needed to do really well. I think it has done reasonably well. Um, for for me, my favorite game up until this point of theirs has been Elton John. I absolutely love that game. I think it's great, but then it doesn't really feel like a Jersey Jack game in a lot of ways. You know, outside of light shows and stuff. I think it shoots completely differently to most of their games up until this point. Um, but yeah, I you know, I think it was I think it was fantastic. I think they've all felt they've all felt grand. Um, the two games we mentioned so far and certainly when we go on, we'll talk about June as well. They're grand and it's got that grand feel about it. Um, Harry Potter, it really really does. You know, you I think you you do think when you're playing it, it's a premium game that they probably put quite a lot of money into. You you do Yeah, you definitely do feel that. And and you know, and and I say this a lot, Dave. I said it the other day talking about one of your one of your mods on Jaws. you know, the mod makers have have had to finish that game to make that like Jaws is like my Jaws is now, which was just just over there with with some of your lovely stuff in it and and you know, and loads of other great mod makers. Um, you you feel it would have that would have come out of Jersey Jack like that, you know, uh like like that is now. So, yeah, it's very it's very very grand, but like I always say, you I don't want to be disingenuous when I really really like a game, but I think it's so I'll go and get it. I I'll find a way. I'll sell something else and I'll go and get it and you know the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Um I mean the benefit right of having Harry Potter with selling so many units and let's face it there's no limitation on how many they're going to make. I think this is going to be like Guns and Roses for them, right? They've been making this probably for the next few years to come. Yeah. I'm fairly confident I'll pick one up sooner or later in the second. I'll get I'll get an arcade one. I I would and I probably will. I probably will next year actually. Cool. Yeah. I mean I'm I still want to I mean I'm still after Elton John. I had one but it was not great. I ended up moving it on quickly because it was just wasn't as reliable as I would have liked it to be. But um I mean a fair play for Harry to JGP for investing. I mean they must have spent a ton of cash on that game. Yeah. Um and it's you know um and you know [clears throat] in Tium it stands out. You can you can you know you can see hey you know it's almost like two neon invisible neon signs saying this game come and come and play it. My only major criticism is that topper. You compare it to every other topper coming out recently. It just doesn't hit the same. So so they they had contracted somebody to build the topper. Okay. And there was a late minute change which meant that they pulled out. Um, so that topper I think was the backup plan by the sounds of it then. Yeah, [clears throat] it was. And obviously timelines they needed to hit. Um, I mean I feel like that that game there was lots of rumors of it license issues. They had the AIR issue. I feel like it, you know, almost from the start they were under a bit of pressure, but I still feel like they sailed through it. Yeah, the topper's not so great, but it's not killing out, you know, not matter, I don't think. Um, and the AI art thing as well, like I mean obviously that would have caused a lot of sleepless nights internally for them I think. Um, and it would have been a really stressful time to navigate that and there would have been a lot of fingerpointing and um, and you know who who knows what the the you know the true story is on that and who knew what and when. Um, but I think that when it, you know, there's always I think it's there's there was a lot of interesting sort of talks and stuff at Expo with a lot of the artists, pinball artists and about the creep of AI and what that means for um, you know, pinball artists and things like that. And I guess that was all in response to this JJ thing. Um, so it's it's created a lot of conversation which is really good I think. And it's also exposed that, you know, once again, you know, pinball is is primarily populated by old dudes who sort of don't [clears throat] change very much. So, you know, I think agree everybody think twice before uh you know, or or at least be a lot more studious in in checking uh you know, the artwork that's being produced by artists they contract. So, so I think I think we're all giving Harry probably maybe not you because you not played it, but I think we're giving Harry Potter a thumbs up. Oh, definitely. Brilliant. Yeah. You know, and I mean it's it's sound like hot cakes. Um they can't build enough of them. Um and I do feel like, you know, I always kind of look at the legacy aspects of this. looking, you know, from the future back, you'll think, you know, um, you know, you imagine Iron Maiden, it's coming up for 10 years, believe it or not. Keith, is it? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's eight years, I think. But I look at it and think they just smashed it with that game. And and I kind of feel that, you know, JG, when you look back on this, you'll think, yeah, they did the they did it justice. um and uh you know puts him in good probably in a good position for whatever next comes along. So I'm going to move us on. I'm going to I'm going to go from Ying to Yang and pull out the disaster that is the Blues Brothers. Um so I as I have comes down just without Yeah. I mean I mean I don't want to spend too much time on this but again I'm another massive Blues Brothers fan. when I heard that Mike had got the license, some part of my soul died. Um, and because I just knew it was going to be awful. And given the you know this is the thing Kirk Sadler who's a massive Blues Brothers fan where I was talking to him he used to run Tilt and you know [clears throat] with it being a Chicago based thing and the home of Pinball being Chicago you know how does some bozo in Taiwan end up with a license and then take takes another great game Stars totally mangles that it's an old Stern game which is phenomenal. You play it in Pinball Republic if you want to have a if you want to see what the original looked like and literally do probably the minimalistic amount he could do to get away with selling a pin and it's not even that cheap. Um, and so I got to play it at TPF and honestly I just wanted to cry. Um, there should be there should be a law against doing something with pinball licenses. Um that you know just I don't know what more I can add to it. Yeah, it's it's Have you have either of you guys Scott? Yeah. Um because they brought one to to the UK show, didn't they? To Yeah, there was one at Pinfest. There there there was it's a funny one because over the years in pinball there's certain phrases you hear people say when they talk anecdotally about playing a game and I'll say I I went I went to an arcade and I I put a two pound coin in the machine and I didn't even finish all the three balls. I walked away and and I think it's just grandstanding. You're speaking like you're in a theater. You finished your three balls. That's what you you finished them. You're just saying you're just saying you don't you know whatever you speak you know I get you know anyway. So that's the first time I've ever actually experienced that feeling. And I think actually maybe people weren't lying. [laughter] And I did. And I I I sat and I I I remember I I turned around I turned around to my son. I said, "Play that. Play that." And it wasn't it wasn't even making it up the playfield at one point. It wouldn't go up the ramp. It was It was It was terrible. It was true. I didn't even feel like a pinball machine. It it it felt like somebody that didn't know anything about pimble had done it on their their sixth form project or something and they didn't have the right coils or the right springs and it just it wouldn't no this this is not you've you've looked at one and this is how it's supposed but it didn't it hadn't been built with any sort of pinball expertise at all. I don't really need to tell you more more about it than that. Yeah. I mean, it was the same thing with um with Spinal Tap, you know, like it was it was so bad that it was almost like it, you know, I was I was getting people to go and play it just so that they could experience how bad it was, you know, like it was a call to arms. is like you you honestly have to go and play that to experience how terrible it is. And I will give anybody a 100red quid if they can hit the saucer shot because I'm almost positive it's impossible. Oh, I did it. I did it. But I'll be I'll I'll back that statement for me. I've I said to anybody if you wanted to create a scale where you're saying zero is the absolute worst and 10 is the best. I know what zero is and it is blues bars. Why you need to play it? So to calibrate your scale. Yeah. But this I mean this is the thing, right? This is what this is what made this is what made me cry partly the most in this. Okay. Forget that they've murdered Blues Brothers the theme. But Stars is such a great pinball machine. Um Steve Kirk, one of the one of the pioneers to you know they there was an earlier kind of prototype picture that looked more like the original. Um, and I thought that might save this, but you know, like there's one bit there's a I mean Stars is all about the spinners. And then they widened the top bit so that you couldn't actually put a spinner anymore. Then they moved the spinner around the corner so you can actually rip and hit the spinner. So I I just I just thought, what the hell? And and I mean it's got bizarrely it's got some fans and these are people who clearly have been locked you know up for 10 years never played pinball have came out it's pinball I love it but um I I I don't just awful basically and the one at TPF it broke about three times as well even just to reuse an existing layout is just you know it just it just speaks of their approach. doesn't it? It's just like, oh, why would we why would we go to the effort of designing our own one when we can just rip off somebody else's design? It it just occurred to me in Stars got any recompense for for the use of that layout. It just occurred to me, Neil, there is one game we haven't actually thought about listing, which we might want to, although I doubt any of us have played it. Maybe Dave played it. Maybe you have played it and you've just forgot about it. The Wonderland Amusements Alice and Wonderland. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I haven't played it past it. I didn't I It's I think it's a next year game, too, mate. Next year. I'm just wondering if that will be the contender for the new worst game or will it will it beat Blues Brothers? Time will tell. Very interest. It's a very interesting project, I suppose, in the sense that it's sort of trying to rehash that idea that to make, you know, an affordable pinball machine, but I think it's a conversation for another day. Yeah. Um, so let's move on from Blues Brothers because I don't want to Yeah, we can't waste too much time on something this dire rubbish. Yeah, exactly. Um, so um I think I'm going to I'm going to jump uh because I know we've got some fans of this game. In fact, I think we're all fans of this game to to Dune. Um so let me just give my spiel about June. Um the the original movie way back when and the books I was a big fan of the the new movies I just felt they were over overwhelmingly kind of I don't know just too big. Um and and then when this game came out I thought okay cool. Um great theme great choice for a theme. Uh when I first played it it was it was literally just out the door and the code was just awful. I mean, they I think I think if you talk to David now, he kind of admits that they kind of should have put more, you know, probably waited a little bit, let the code mature. The first time I played it, I thought, "Oh my god, this is awful." I mean, that was my it was at Pinberg. I then played it a few months later um in in Chicago and thought, "Wow, this game is fantastic." And it's on my list to obtain at some point in time. Um and and actually I was getting close to buying one when they they did um they did Winchester, which is we'll cover we'll try and cover later on. But um I think uh I think a lesson learned for Barrels of Fun, but a very beautiful looking game that shoots really well. And I think, you know, as they develop the code, it's going to be a very strong contender. Um maybe Scott, you've maybe played it the most. Uh yeah, I've got definitely a lot of plays out of it now. Um I mean like I for me I was a bit like you Neil when I first saw the game launch and me and Holly as in my wife massive June fans and I I like you I suppose I really do like the the new movies. I prefer them to be honest with you over the original. Um the Han Zimmer or Zimmerman I can't remember his surname the composer. That's it. Yeah man. this the music score. I love it. And you put that on like, you know, Dolby Atmos with the with the sound and everything. It's just it's surreal. Like he's built a world with that music for me. He's a bit like um uh Williams if you if you know what I mean with the Jurassic Park stuff like that. For me, he's on that sort of level of quality. Um and and but to the game itself, like yeah, it came it came around for me when I saw KL D'Angelo play it. I think it was like 4 months ago when they finally got assets approved and they had like a code that was fairly like further along and the game for me just went from being this kind of like it looks ropey, I'm not too sure about this to oh my god I have to have this and watching him play I suppose is a bit unfair because he makes a game look easy. You sit him in front of a pinball machine he shoots every shot as if it's just like a slice of cake. He just like it's just like elegance for him. Every shot just seems like it just flows. But for me at least it demonstrated the game does have flow and I have at least experienced that having the game now. For me I can know that I can change shots from one to another. I really love um how you can like nail the harvester and it reminds me a lot to be honest with of medieval madness destroying the castle has that kind of moment in it that I I like. And then the full integration between like the screen at the back with the screen on the top and you can see the ornifopter that you have to shoot and it moves across the screen and that indicates where you need to destroy it. I love that integration that they almost like a pinball 2000 thing is what they wanted to do there. Yeah. And I feel like that's what I mean. Like we've I' I've noticed every time Brows of Phone have made a game now and unfortunately we won't be able to talk about Winchester cuz it's considered obviously for next year but they keep doing more and more integration with the screen and I feel like every time they do it they take it a step further and at least June for me like I've been really satisfied with the purchase. I'm super happy with it. Um, I still think in my heart, Evil Dead is probably the better game and it's the game that got away. But Doom for me is a strong contender for like second place and I'm really happy I got it and I'm definitely won't be shifting it on for some time. Yeah, I I just I'd agree with with everything you just said there actually. Um, I think it will probably go down as as well. I I can already tell it's going to be one of my my favorite ever pinball machines. I can just already tell that. um they've they've built an atmosphere in it and like you I love the Frank Herbert books. I love the modern films. This this was a dream theme for me and you're thinking please don't muck this up. That's all I ever think when anyone does a dream theme. Please please don't don't muck this up. So I was absolutely blown away. Um it was inconvenient. I didn't I couldn't afford it. I I let I sold Big Labowski to get it and and that is another massively packed pinball machine. It's got a bowling alley in it for goodness sake, right? That's how good that thing is. Um um the so the kickback, they've stored a pinball and the kickback is another pinball hitting the ball. That that's incredible. The worm everybody knows about the sounds of the chart. Um the first when they released that barrels of fun got a load of people in there and they look like they'd never played pinball before. So I watched it. I thought, "Oh, this this has got no flow. This is clunky as hell. Really really clunky." Um, so I thought I that's why I waited. I thought I am not going to not until I've played it. And then when I played it, I thought, oh, okay, they've obviously had a bad day. Maybe it's set up badly like yourself, Scott, hitting the shots, not the best player in the world. And the first time I ever saw where the um the Benny Jesuit Yeah. put your hand in a box. So actually, you've got a similar thing with Evil Dead, which is you got to use the two flipper buttons on the right to control both flippers. I love things like that. as I remember there was the limited flip thing on Oh, well, not X-M was the Keith Elwin game with the Avengers, right? Limited flips. I like it when they do something a little bit creative like that. So, you got to keep your hand on the action button then to lo basically you lose your ball. Your ball's drained. Well, you might be able to get it back and that's if you've got to use one hand on both flippers and if you've got to hit this shot, you get your ball back. It it's it's brilliant. The mood, the bass that comes through when she's when she when she speaks and she summons Paul Trady's over. Whoa. You know, it it makes the room shake. I I got nothing but good stuff to say about that game. And if they're stopping doing it, and they are going to stop that at 600 units or whatever. Um there's there's going to there's going to be people that that really would have wanted that game, but you win some, you lose some. Night Neil has kind been kind enough to lend me the the Evil Dead, but I do look at Evil Dead. Oh, would love would love that. But I do agree with you. I I think a a close second um June to to Evil Dead, but a magnificent game on on any other year that game wins. Just quickly on that as well, cuz I don't want to I know Dave's got to speak his part. Um what I thought interesting is Evil Dead had a really slow start, didn't it, on the sales cycle. Didn't actually sell all it didn't sell through, so to speak, until halfway through um the year. And it's the same thing kind of happened with Doom, but it's not given that same opportunity. I think it's like it's now being superseded by another title really. Um, I think for me at least, as I say, I'm just happy I got one. And big credit to Jeff. I think watching his streams, Dirty Pool, I think he's called on this on Twitch, he really did obviously bring the sound to a new level. I think he's having him on board along with Carl. Um, it's definitely a great choice for for Bows of Fun. I'm really happy that they've got those two working on incredible. What what I would say by the way is talk about expectations because we know that and because no Jeff's done that and because everybody knows I think that um June has got such exceptional sound. I was [clears throat] then very surprised when I turned on Evil Dead. Wow, this is good as well. I didn't realize Evil Dead was going to have such good sound. It's great, isn't it? It's nice to be in the, as you say, the golden era. It really is. So, I think so Evil Dead sold out partway through TPF. Um, I think they sold their last 50 units to a distributor and so it was kind of like I mean you're right it sort of it was slow and then everybody went to TPF realized it was an absolute banger. Word started getting around and then suddenly they just went through their entire allocation in space of about two or three days and interestingly um you know like June had a slow start too didn't it? you know, they made a [clears throat] couple of missteps in terms of, you know, when they were doing the announcement, they were trying to sort of usurp other people who were, you know, doing announcements at similar times. Um, it didn't quite land, the code wasn't ready. um their marketing wasn't on point and it kind of then just got swallowed up into you know all of these other releases at the same time and kind of just flew under the radar and then continued like that for months and months and then uh at Expo two days before Expo they obviously had learned their lesson and then just like dropped the bomb that was Winchester two days before Expo nobody was expecting that you know there was not a not a peep of a rumor about that game coming out and then suddenly like Expo was theirs for the taking. You know, every that's all anybody was talking about. Even Harry Potter was like third in line in terms of like excitement of that show. Um and as a result of Winchester like raising the profile at Barrels of Fun, suddenly everybody was then playing June. Um you know, like we were all lining up to play June. That was the first time I played it. They had the new back glass there which is a million times better than the portrait backlass they initially released with. It's absolutely beautiful. Um I don't know whether you guys have seen it but a big picture of the the sand worm and you know with these tiny characters down below really sort of captures the scale of the story um uh you know as it is. And yeah the sound I mean I love the new movies. I sort of I'm not familiar with books. I'm not familiar with the old movies, but I love the new movies, particularly the arena scenes. Um, you know, when the music and the atmosphere and the scale just like just completely gives you tingles. Um, and yeah, and I thought I thought the game shot beautifully, you know, it shot really well. It was really good fun. Sound was amazing. And I was like, why is everybody sleeping on this? You know, this is a this is a really great game. And I think a lot of people had that same reaction at that show. And so, it's funny, isn't it? you know, like you you say that sort of Winchester kind of uh took the took the crown away or took the focus away um from, you know, from that manufacturer. But I think in some ways it sort of refocused people's attention on them in a lot of ways too and said, "Look, you know, these guys are actually, you know, they're they're contenders for like one of the most exciting manufacturers around at the moment." And you know, you could see Dave was just, you know, absolutely loving it uh at the show and you know, felt like uh kind of, you know, affirmation for all that hard work, I suppose. And um you know, massive shout out to uh Jeff Dodson to who did who did the sound work on on June? You said Jeff. Is it a different? Yeah, Jeff Dirty Pop. Yeah. So he did June as well, didn't? Yeah, that's how he got introduced. So he started off doing work for them on Doom and then went on to Winchester. Um because yeah, I obviously know that he worked on Winchester and the sound on that is just incredible. But um I think he's even planning to do stuff around Labyrinth, you know, to retroactively do some work on that as well, which is great. It's like that's why I like when they bring in talent like that, right? It's having a knock on. I think I think the story is that he that Jeff We lucky enough to have Jeff on the channel. He's a really really good guy. And I think if I've got this got this right, I think he he had got hold of a June and he he basically contacted them and said I can help you out or he was doing he was doing a a Twitch stream and enduring it and then I think David then got in touch with him and said actually if you are serious about helping us out come on over. So a lovely lovely story actually. Yeah. Great. So he um he originally like he he's sort of semi-retired now in a way like basically he just released like a whole bunch of music that is kind of you know on those kind of those music sites where you know you go and find sort of licensed music and you pay us a nominal fee or whatever and you download the song. So he's got like all this music out there on these sites and that's how he just earns his income. So um you know it's just like a sort of a residual income for him now. So that's why he's now just going all in on pinball because you know he's got this secondary income from that. Yeah. Nice. What he loves, which is great. And it's amazing to have him because, you know, he's a real talent. Yeah, definitely. And you know, he's going to do I mean I I I talked to him at um Expo and and um I'd never seen any of streams. Well, I saw a little bit of one, but then I was I watched a he did a few other um streams. I was watching him and you know he he really listens. Um you know when I was talking to him it was like it felt like you know I really you know give me your give me your input. Um and I think he's a great addition um to balance of fun along with Carl. Um so I mean I like say I'm going to try and get June. I know they're I think they've done a last call for the end of the year. 31st of December one. Give David a phone. Tell him Neil McCree sent you and he'll add 10% to the price. [laughter] And yeah, no, don't tell him that. The topper I should mention as well. Yeah, actually topper is obviously in pre-production at the moment. And uh it's obviously you can view it and see in prototype stage, but I think if I'm not mistaken, it's a similar window to get that at least at a discount price. Um, so if you want to get a Dune and the topper, now's the time to really do it really. And the back glass because I have to back glass has no limitations apparently. You can buy that whenever. But the topper is stunning. I actually I did a head turn on that when I walked past. I was like, "What game?" Because I thought it was a different game. The way they had [snorts] it set up at Expo, I was like, "What?" And then I thought, "Oh, wow. This this is cool." I think that's when I I um I spoke to um uh Dirty Dirt Dirty Pinball cuz cuz he was he was there at the time. I'm going to move us on and and of course the other the other kind of uh game that was I think got a lot of focus at expo um get to the chapa um is is Predator um and you know I I um Dave why don't you kick us off on that because did you play at Expo? did. But I had the worst game of pinball. You know, you know, sometimes you just like you play a game and it's just dream it. Yeah. Just it just gets sucked down the left out lane. Normally when I turn a video camera on, David, [laughter] and not only that, but basically I'd uh the guy in front of me was like the Dutch like champion and he like a halfhour game directly in front of me. And so I was kind of just standing around and my back was kind of hurting from being in line and then I finally got my go and then I drained like within literally two minutes. Yeah. And so I didn't get a good chance to play it really. Um but I but I stood over it for ages and watched other people play uh and chatted with a lot of other people at the show who had played it. And I mean, I know I didn't have a a great go on it, but um even even what I did see and what I played, it feels like Pinball Brothers best game to date. Um and I think that um you know, I don't want to make too fine a point of it, but it that's a pretty low bar when you look at ABBA and, you know, games like that. And I'm not a fan of Aliens either. Um even though, you know, that's obviously got its fans. Um, I believe mostly people who are just absolutely obsessed with with the franchise. Um, because for me it's not a great game to play. Um, my wife would agree with you. Yeah. She's always telling me, "Can you sell it?" Yeah. And I'm like, "No." [laughter] Yeah. Um, and obviously it's it, you know, it's probably and and also it's it's not really a Pin Brother game either, is it? It's a highway game that they're Yeah. True. Yeah. reran. So, you can't really class as one of theirs. Um, and I thought that ABBA was contender for worst game of the year two years ago or one year ago, whenever it was. Um, and you know, they just astound me sometimes, those those guys, you know, like that game's got a lot to offer. You know, I think the sculpts on it are are fantastic. I think particularly the the hut area on the lower left is really quite beautiful. Um, I think the artwork's been done really well. That's so that's Oric. Uh, who, um, you guys might know that the shadow alternative uh, um, translike that he did that's really good. More comic book style. So, he did all that. He's the guy that does the art on Predator. I think he's done a fantastic job. I think it looks I think he did the artwork on Alien as well, didn't he? I'm not sure. Maybe because he's ex highway. So, that would that would that would make sense. Um uh you know and and then and then during the the teaser campaign that lasted about four weeks. Do you remember? Way too long. Four weeks. And I was like come on. But the biggest the biggest tease that they did was the helicopter where it's just like a post that stops the ball. The blades go and then the ball gets released and it's like that's something I hope you can fix Davey later on. Maybe give them a proper helicopter. Another chance. Do you know how many units they're doing of Predator? Less than 300, isn't it? Not not enough to warrant mod making. Yeah. Exactly. Not enough to warrant mod making. That's right. So, you know, um you know, unfortunately, it is a bit of a numbers game when you sort of mod scene and you do have to look at sales and and unfortunately games like that sort of don't warrant it. I mean, even even games like Winchester, which I do really want to do something for, um, you know, it's still 500 units, and you have to think how many how many buy it, of course. Yeah. Going to buy the mod for it. You know, you're not you'd do well to sell 100 mods on a 500 unit game, wouldn't you? Yeah, for sure. That would be that would be the absolute max. I mean, I wouldn't even hit um, you know, uh, 20% of Godzilla, you know, total units sold. Like I would I'd be lucky to have even hit 10%. We've done calculations and might be 5%. So wow, you know that's massive. Yeah, for me for me predators and art in how not to launch a game. Um I mean shambles the you know I get that they're trying to build up the hype, but you're starting from a position where one of the key assets of the game is not there. [snorts] Oh, no. No. It was worse. Do you remember? They had someone leak the game play of the code that wasn't authorized, which showed Arnneield in it, and I bought it based on that leak, and then it didn't have the code, and I went, "No, that was it." So, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that was their fault, though. Yeah. Well, let's hope it wasn't. Right. But but the simple fact is is they knew at the start of this they didn't have Arie and Arie's I hate to say it but he is this film, right? I mean that's why people for sure it's why people got it, right? He he um they you know they they so they're trying to hype this thing up. It took too long. It was you know it leaked as well. There's a few bits and pieces. Um, the artwork again, I think when you when you start from nothing, because I don't think they had half the assets, you know, it's probably not the worst it could be. Um, and it is it's it's Oric, I think the guy who did did the art. Um, he did it for he did do the art for um, pretty sure he did the art for Alien and and he did that great Star Trek back glass rethe for Stern's old Star Trek. That was pretty cool as well. I can't help but think, you know, pinball manufacturers when the main asset isn't unavailable, just stop. Just stop. I just I just It's like, you know, it' be like doing Harry Potter and and you just call it wizard, you know, and no [laughter] Harry No Harry Potter. Yeah. Can you imagine it? You know, it just it just it's like Harry Potter. Yeah. I just I just can't um I just can't imagine why. Um Oh, could you imagine if they had done it where they said, "Well, you are the character. You're the wizard, so we didn't feel we needed to put Harry in it." I could just imagine some spin. It would be terrible. Yes, that's right. Like anybody's going to believe that. Exactly. Yeah. I look I I I can't say anything about what I do know is spoke earlier on about when someone gets a dream theme, please don't muck it up. Predators a dream theme. No doubt about that. That's that's some pretty awesome stuff there. Um, and I think when you hear certain companies are getting licenses, think, oh my goodness, like you like Lord of the Rings, if Lord of the Rings were going to be remade now and I heard that bloody Home Pin were going to get it or something like that, I think ah oh no really. Um, it would you'd think you it's spoiled. So ring the beauty of it is at least you know that there's already a good Lord of the Rings game, right? It's true. You're absolutely [clears throat] you're absolutely right. Of course. Um uh having played uh Alien Queen, that was them as well, wasn't it? Queen. Yeah. Queen and ABBA, they they for me the games don't shoot right. So if if they have improved and this is their best game today. The reason you say that is because they're using the fast hardware now. So it's the same hardware that Barrels of Fun is using. Oh, okay. This should make a massive difference cuz Alien was like it didn't even have ender stroke switches. So you couldn't do drop catches. the ball would hit the flipper and it would just go down by itself. It was like was weird, wasn't it? Weird. Really weird feel. Very floaty, very weird. It just didn't feel like a you play a CGC, it sort of feels like a stern and you know what I mean? A certain feel to modern games. It doesn't feel like that. Actually, the original Alien that the the highway one did have and did have all was done properly. They then kind of forgot forgot to do it. But I think for me on on Predator, I mean, it just feels cheap. The shots there's two good shots in it. the kind of opposite end shots when the flippers aren't warm, you can kind of hit them. The middle of the game with this kind of weird U-turn just makes no sense to me at all. And then and then you've got this kind of weird mess over on the on the on the left hand side. It's like I swear I never see a single person hit that left ramp. You know what I'm about to hit with the upper flipper. Yeah. I mean, the thing the thing I'd say about Predator though, and I went I kind of knew it' be bad. I played it and I confirmed my suspicions, but a few friends of mine at Expo were saying I really liked it. So, I went back to play it again because I thought maybe I've missed something, but I just I just came away thinking, nah, this isn't great. I know Retro Ralph did a stream on it last night and he he loves it. Um, so it's definitely got a home for some people, but I just think it's another it's another theme opportunity missed. Yeah, but it has landed better than all their other games to date. Um, but you know, I think that in terms of the numbers that they need to be hitting and the games they need to be selling, it's not going to be enough. I was going to say that license must cost them a lot, right? So, 300 units, is that even enough to cover the license cost? Right. I mean, Spooky once and this So, this is Spooky talking as well. Sure. You know, they're, you know, everybody's cost structures are different and, you know, who who knows what people are paying for what and what they're investing and what they're cutting corners on and all that kind of crap. But Spooky once said that I think I think it was 500 units is the break even point, right? So anything above that is profit. Maybe even pure profit. I don't know. But um but that's the break even point. So, if you're selling 300 games or two 220 or 250 or something, I can't remember [clears throat] exactly what Sean was saying at Expo, um, [clears throat] you know, and who knows whether even that's accurate as well. Like that could be the that could be what Yeah. I mean, I just have so many different numbers, Dave, on how many they were making. Then they were doing a last order, then the order went on, then they were using dealers, then they were doing it themselves. I mean, like I I so I love Sean. He's such a lovely dude. This is their So Sean is a guy that I worked with um on the Funhouse 2 project. Okay. When me Melvin from Dutch Pinball and Sean who's now working for Pinball Brothers as a rep or tech or Yeah. Yeah. He's like the man in the US. Yeah. Um, a lot. He's such a great dude. He's a lovely dude, but he very easily gets uh into situations where he sort of gets used and abused, I think. And I'm not saying that that's happening at pin, but I would like to make those kind of admissions. He's not shared any of that information with me. But certainly, I can tell you that he looked quite tired at expo. He's not his usual sort of happy golucky self. So, I think it's been tough. Um, and it's difficult to know what's going on behind the scenes. That's Yeah. You know, [clears throat] yeah, you kind of wonder where they go from here. Um, you know, I I, you know, they, you know, I get the sense they've pissed off their dealership network and I think trying to do pinball without dealers is in is incredibly tough. Yeah. And, you know, the whole leak thing, I don't know. Look, I think like I say, there are people like this game. I would for me if you know if it was if there was one kicking about for maybe four grand and we had a slot in the club, I might pick one up and stick it in the club. But and that's depressing because I'd put Predator as one of those teams as in the same space as Evil Dead. Um and and it kind of just it just feels like it just when you walk away there I just felt there's some bits. Yeah, there's some potential there, but then there's so many other bits like like the sound in the audio is actually pretty decent. Um, I think the call outs are pretty good if you ignore the bad Arnold impersonator who I think even Neil you've done better than that. But like I I sent them my I phoned them and said, "Mate, I'll do the call outs for Predator because honestly there's a million people they could have got. What about that guy that even did the one for Terminator 2 with the pin sound? He does a pretty good knockoff impression of Arnold, right? There's so many people they could have gone to. It was just crazy. But I think is it? Yeah. I don't think it's a terrible game. More like Chewbacca than Arnold. I I genuinely I think the code looks interesting. Although it's a bit weird the way you can resurrect like your you recruit your kind of your team members. They can get executed by the Predator, but then you can revive them even though they show clips of their heads getting blown apart. It's like I I don't know. I would have probably gone a little bit more loose with the license at that point. Maybe used animations rather than movie clips. But anyway, yeah. The problem is is animations cost money. Yeah, it's true. Yes. You know, they they've they've they've got a limited um budget and and I'm with Dave. I don't think they've made any money from this. In which case, you know, so Queen, I don't think they made any money on that. ABBA, I'll be amazed if they made any money on that. Predator, have they made any money on that? I think I'm going to guess if they did, it wasn't a lot. And I I think they struggled to break even. They're probably riding high on the alien sales, right? They need they need another alien sale basically. And alien, isn't there? That Predator should have been it. Exactly. Really? That's a license. I'm going to move us on in the interest of time. Yeah. Um I think look, the next obvious game on the list is Kong. Um I think I'm gonna abstain from this one because I one I don't like it. I've played it. Yeah. So that's it. I liked it and I didn't play it. There's my comment. Hey, that's Scott. That's You played it and you didn't like it. That's true. Yes. You said you said you liked it and you didn't play it. My word. That's two very different things, Scott. Yeah. Soctin and messed it up. There we go. Yeah. I mean, look, so I really like this game. I think it's um again, I think it was maybe a little bit early out the gate codewise. Um, and there's a, you know, there's a couple of I I think if I was stern and I'm look doing something like that Kongmeck, I would have had a sticker on the front that said, "Please make sure you check your Cong before cuz again, they use they used they use radio control servos. They don't there's no unless you unless you you self test them, you don't know where the zero is on them. I used to race model cars, so I know it all too well. Um, that's why every remote controls got a trim function on it, right? Um, that bit they they didn't get right. But I've I I absolutely love the game. Um, I think the the whole there's a few homages to things. Um, the the whole climb thing is a lot of fun. The island moving to the island modes and and New York. Um, you know, again, the code still still relatively early if you compare it to say Jaws. Um, but I think this game's fantastic. I know a lot of people thought the art was awful. I I actually think in person the art's fantastic. It's not everybody's cup of tea. Um, for sure, but I think um Jerry and and the team got a bit of abuse for that, which I I think's unfounded. The one bit I'm less happy about probably of this game is the music. The call outs and the sound effects are all good. I think the music is is probably where I would I would like something better, but um as a as a kind of game that that I go to Kong uh quite a lot um and I think it's it's actually a relatively easier game. It's quite hard to lose the ball. So, I think for new folks, it's it's potentially a good way in. A lot of people gave Stern a bit of a kick cuz they they didn't license the license bits. Um, and and I I think on this, they just about get away with it. Like, so they, you know, the Empire State Building isn't in it. Um, you know, I for me it doesn't bother me because the game play is so good, gameplay is so great. Um I and and I think there's a lot more uh to come out codewise for this game, but I um for me after Evil Dead, it's kind of my number two game of the year. Um and I've I've loved playing it and um seeing it be played, but I still think like with Jaws, you know, there was kind of a there was a code bit. They got to a bit of code and then there's a long wait for the final bits. I think we're in that kind of part of the the process, but um I think it's another I think it's another strong game from Keith. Is it is his best game? Maybe not, but it's it's still I think it's still up there. Um, and you know, I think a lot I think there's a lot more innovation in the game than it gets credit if you kind of just drill into it and look at what what's there and kind of um dial into it. So I I in short, I love the game. Um, and I think it's I think it's got more to to come in terms of where the code goes and where they take that game. Um, I I I think nothing demonstrates how lucky and spoiled we are in pinball than the bad reception that Kong has got because I think on another year it it would win game of the year. Um, I I think it's really tough when you compare some of the games we we've discussed that do all these magnificent things, shotgun shells and sand worms and stuff like that. But I'd just like to, you know, I just just have to remind yourself has a King Kong at the back of the playingfield that breaks up a train and the balls run along a train track. That's that's a that's a very very impressive pinball moment on it on itself. That's really good. The upper flipper, left small upper flipper. What a shot off of there. That is one of the best shots in pinball. I think I love that shot. It's repeatable. It's satisfying. There's some brilliant ball paths on it. Um, it's got the, uh, Fathom in lane, out lane, swapping over thing going on, which is really good. You can actually nudge it as well from one, um, to the other and retrieve the ball from there. Uh, I don't I don't care for the for the artwork. I think they're almost one one too many of those. It I I don't know if it it probably wasn't Zombie Yeti or someone else, but it felt it had that cartoonish look about it. I would have liked a different artwork on it. Um, but it's I think it's a magnificent pinball machine and I just think it's a really tough year. I think it shoots so well. So well. I don't mind the animations at all on it. I actually think they've done quite well actually. Um I I I think I think there's a lot of things you could point at Stern where they don't have not done well and and I'm happy to do so, but I don't think that game is is one of them. Um, and I was lucky enough to have because of Pimblewan, I I was lucky to have the Pro and the Premium side by side. And I tell you what, those games shot beautifully. Yeah, I mean, I really like the gong as well. I think it's it's such a good hit. I'll be honest, when I saw it, I thought really I I wasn't convinced. um cards on the table, but once you've shot it a few times and and you're in the middle of a you're in the middle of a game and you know you and the next thing for the big collector is bang the gong. When you hit it, it's like uh I love it. I mean folks with the but it's not really easy. It's not an easy job. It's it's a massive gong right there, you know, middle off the left flipper and it's it's not easy. You can and you can hit it on a backhand as well, but it's not easy on either. Yeah. I I mean I I think um there's a couple of shots that are that look really easy, but are actually quite difficult in it. the kind of the the kind of loop shot where you hit it in the B in the in the scoop and it kind of kicks it out. That's a tricky shot. And then and then definitely the other shot which kind of an um plane shots really hard. Yeah, exactly. That is such a such a a tricky shot. But again, I mean this is the thing. I think Kong's got like five or six amazing shots where there's other games out there. I probably put, you know, we just talked about Predator. I put up where it's got one shot that's as good as the the least good shot in Kong. So I think it's a definitely another great Elwin game. Um again it's one of those things you know a few years from now where will it stand you know in terms of greatness and completeness? It's definitely up there. Um it's just it's just you know how does it compare? And and it goes back to the the point Chris you were making at the start which is so many games competing for your your pound notes and you know and and any other year you know I think last year if I think um you know this might this might have been game of the year or you know might just had a a different a different vibe around the game but you know if I if I look at the club there's two games in the club that that just demand the most play. Kong and Star Wars. Um and and you know it it I think in the probably in the kind of tournament side Kong gets a lot of love. Um, for sure and and it's not, you know, it's not a really it's not I wouldn't say call it a tournament game actually cuz it's it's in some for the tournament players it's quite easy and you know but Zmac put a two and a half hour game on it at Papa which mean meant I was commentating till 3 in the morning um which was which was no fun let me tell you I don't never play any game for two and a half hours. Yeah, I mean it's it was staggering to watch and actually I thought some of the videos were quite quite violent where there's this bit where he's where he's punching is I can't it's like a slap to the to um the T-Rex and I'm thinking my god in in you know if kids saw that you remember the tango advert that got banned because kids were slap you know the big orange head for that in in there's a mode in in the game where there's the the basically Kong's literally punching this thing the the T-Rex down. I'm like, "Holy moly, that's violent." But I I think it's a I I genuinely think it's a a great game and I think it will I think I I predict it's going to get a bit as it as time progresses it'll be like a fine wine that it it gets better. David, did you get one of these? I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah, I've got one. Um and doing mods for it as well. Um, and I love it. Um, I I think it's been really maligned for whatever reason. Um, I think the artwork being that it does look like another Zombie Yeti effort, even though, as you said, Chris, it's not. It's three different artists all working together. Um but the fact that they sort of keep sort of digging into that that well um I think it just o overstepped people's welcome for that sort of style. Um me personally I love it particularly the playfield art I think is fantastic. It kind of reminds me of those uh you know 1980s Dungeons and Dragons board games where like every little square has its own detail. Like the outline sort of has snakes sort of winding down. Everywhere you look there's something going on you know like there's the you know the sailors jumping over the chasms and you know there's for me it just sort of speaks to my childhood that that style of artwork. Well, I absolutely love it and I think that um I think the game itself has got a ton of personality as well. Just the way that they make it sort of that 1920s sort of explorer sort of vibe and the the movie introduction stuff. It's a lot of thoughts gone into it and for me I you know they you know people were complaining about the fact that they didn't get original Kong footage from the movies or whatever. It's like, well, if they had done that, you would have just been complaining that they were just redoing Godzilla all over again, you know? So, you can't have it both ways, you know? They they decided not to do that. And they and then they they used the same, you know, graphics tamers as uh from Metallica Remastered. And you can see that I can tell. I was going to say I wasn't going to say much on it, but I'd never understood why people said like, you know, um, animations were like, you know, better in one game or another, but for me, Metallica Remastered has got the best animations full stop. And then I look at Kong and I can definitely tell that animation style is there. They need to just do that full stop. I look at Walking Dead and I know Neil, you love that game. I mean, I animation is terrible. Said the same thing. I was like, why, you know, why don't they just rinse these because these guys are good. These are the guys. Yeah. use them for they do. They just don't always use the same style. And so that's that's interesting. But for for me, you know, that sort of that that style was very visible between those two games, between Metallica Remastered and Kong. I don't think it was was as good in Kong as what they did in Metallica. Oh, no. Metallica is their best. If I'm biased to that, but I I really do think it's their best. Yeah. I mean that the the sequences where the band members are like walking through Yeah. from shadow and you know turning from skeleton skeletons to live bodies. Yeah. It's amazing. Right. It's just so good. Good. And um when you get if you ever got to Blackand as well, the animations on Blackend are insane. The spark going down the the going into Sparky like it's just so so good. But anyway, I I noticed [clears throat] sort of some simil similarities between that and Kong and uh you know, I thought the game shoots really well. Um you know, it's again, you know, it just feels like an element in in terms of sort of how it's put together. I think the upper flipper shots are really fun and interesting. The bip plane shot I find really difficult. I can't sort of nail it consistently. Um the gong shot I think is fine. I'm not, you know, I don't get the sort of same sense of satisfaction as Neil does from that. Um, and overall I'm just not very good at it, you know, like I can't I can't get over like 200 million. And I know I should say I played it was brutal, but I know I know Neil, you say it's easy and you see people pay for two and a half hours. I found it quite easy. This all comes down to are the shots where they're supposed to be for your own playing style. I I found I could hit sometimes, you know, John Wick. I couldn't play John Wick for 30 seconds. just I don't seem to score very well, you know, like I'm not doing there's something I'm not doing that. I mean, with I mean, this is the thing about Keith games, you know, there's keys to them about how you unlock big scores and it's much more, you know, there's many many dimensions to it and and if you can't, you know, Keith rewards skill and if you can't string shots together, you know, you're going to struggle with this game. It's like Iron Maiden, you know, I People say, "Oh, Iron Maiden, I can do, you know, one I have a game is 2 million. I have another game that's 200 million." And it's And it's Is it obvious to what to shoot though in Kong? Yeah, 100%. It is. Is it? Because at least for me, when I looked at the playfield, I was like, "What am I shooting?" I I don't I don't think it is. I don't think it's obvious. No, I mean, I play June. I know exactly what I'm shooting. I don't need a manual. I don't need a playbook. It's obvious to me. Probably my one criticism of Kong 2 is that I feel like the code needs to be a little bit more um don't quite know how to describe it, but um there needs to be sort of like an overarching sort of idea about the progression of the game in a sense at the moment. It feels a little bit like you do a mode and it's in the jungle. You do I was I've watched people stream it and I still I just I I think I think the playful so busy it's it's often hard to see the inserts though. Yeah, I find with Yeah, I think that's I mean I again I kind of I mean when you've watched it I've watched it a lot and I've seen some of the big play top players put huge scores on it. So maybe it's kind of for me I kind of know what to do because of that. That's what I mean. Yeah. I think that maybe that's what I'm looking at from a person that just goes I don't want to read a manual and I know Keith Elwin games it's always the same. Avengers I don't have a clue. They're I just read the PDF. It's It's like the size of Mother Earth's yellow pages. It's like, "No thanks. I just want to play a game." Yeah. Avengers Avengers is a lot simpler than people give it credit for. That's what I That's what makes me ch whenever I hear about Oh, it's so complicated as honest. Honestly, you couldn't get a more simple game. At least in my view. I think I've had it three times and I don't know what's going on with it. [laughter] Maybe we should uh we should get together and do an Avengers day. We can do that. Um, look, so I um I I think I think Scott, you you I think when I first played it and understanding what to do, it probably wasn't as obvious as as it as I'm used to. I think Chris, your point about a lot of inserts is definitely there. But, you know, I think Keith's always very good with the call outs about guiding you kind of what to do. Um, I think the thing that wasn't so clear at the start was how do you start a mode and and I think that's got better. But this is the problem with the way Stern do games is, you know, they add these features to it and then they add the polish that helps you decide what you want to do. If you look at Jaws now, you know, I can't think of a more polished game in terms of telling you what you have to do. It's it's staggeringly good. Um, and so look, I'm conscious of time, guys, and and we're we're we're [clears throat] we're way over where I thought we would be. I'm gonna So, we're going to talk about one more game in detail because I think we have to. Um and then and then the games that we haven't talked about, we we'll kind of just do a bit of a thumbs up and a thumbs down. So, obviously the game that I'm going to talk about, it's going to be tough because um at least I don't think two of you have played it, but it's Star Wars um Fall of the Empire, which I am fortunate enough to to have. Um I mean, first of all, let's just get the whole European thing out the way. That's a [] show. Disney are a [] show. Stern, I think um I think had faith that things would go what they needed and it probably was misplaced. Um I think they expo the word was that they were going to get that license for EU. Okay. I think Yeah. And and look, they still believe they're going to get it. My understanding was it's they're in a queue basically. So there's a whole bunch of stuff before them, but you know, as it was explained, so I I know a few people at Disney. I've I've talked about this before on the podcast, but it's you know, they're looking at do I do a Lego Star Wars head for C3PO and sell a billion of them or do I do a pinball machine and sell a couple of thousand of them? And and they look at it purely through that lens. Um, and and that's that's the pain. My fear, candidly, is that more Disney IP goes through that same lens pain. And and you know, we'll have to wait and see if that's the case. That's the case. You know what I mean? Like Disney are Disney at their best. No, no, but they now own but they you know they acquire all the Fox IP that the scale of their catalog Davey feels it feels hard for me to believe that you can ignore that catalog in the way that you know Scott and I were talking about this which is you know Jersey Jack saying there are no more big themes right which I'm not sure we believe but I kind of I kind of understand what he's saying he's got Harry Potter and Star Wars done and Marvel's kind of probably done to death. Maybe he's referring to themes that appeal to people outside of Hardcore Pinball. Yeah, sure. That's that's probably true. Um, so look, let me just cover the game. So, look, I'm a massive Star Wars fan. The previous Star Wars games, in fact, all of the previous Star Wars games for me have been, frankly, a disappointment. Um, the last one, Steve Richie's one, um, it was a good game, but it felt like they designed the game and then poured Star Wars from the top on it and hoped that it just kind of stuck and it and for me it never did. The whole X thing with the multipliers was just beyond my capability of of it just didn't I just didn't enjoy it. And I literally I bought a game, in fact, I've still got it. I've got a pro. I bought it specifically to learn how to play it and see if I enjoyed it. and I spent months on it and thought, "This is shit." Um, candidly, I I just did not enjoy it. Um, so along comes a new Star Wars game and I'm like, "Hallelujah. Maybe this is the golden the golden fleece." Um, and when I first saw it, I'm, you know, the the playfield was like it wasn't what I was expecting at all. Um, I was definitely not expecting a family. I was definitely expecting more having come from the previous Star Wars. I was expecting a lot more um playfield ball interaction than than what I first saw. Right. But I've been burned by having a view on games from looking at them too many times to go down that path. So I literally I um I got on the plane and flew out for the launch at Stern. Happens actually. Sorry, I wasn't on a plane. I was already there. I just It was at Papa. Is that right, Papa? Yeah. And I hung around to play it. Um I stayed for I extended my stay for a few more days cuz they did a launch and I played it and thought this is a great game and it shoots really nice. The Death Star shot was was not not perfect. I didn't think it was as bad as the as what we now learn it to be. And actually, I kind of I'm in two minds where it fixed mine cuz I I kind of like the fact that it's a tough shot. Um, but all the shots shoot really nice. The the the pop bumpers where they are bring a really interesting uh challenging dimension to it, especially with the force modes. Um, I absolutely love the artwork. I think it's some of Stern's best art on a game and the three different versions of it. Um, it's all handdrawn. Actually, the Ellie I would prefer it wasn't the snow one because I that's the artwork I least I like the least. Um but um and the Spike 3 with the audio and and this is the the frustration that I have with where people play games. When you've got it at home and you hear the audio, it just sounds, you know, John Williams going, it just sounds amazing. The C3PO that they've got to do the call outs is pretty decent. He's it's obviously not Anthony Daniels, but it's it's it's good. Um, and the call outs are pretty well doing. And you got Ray um doing the code, and I think the code is progressing um pretty well. Still a long way to go on it, but again, he's adding things to it. Um, and clearly, you know, a lot of folks want like, you know, a giant on the playfield. They want a Millennium Falcon that spins around and launches a light speeded. Clearly that is not there, right? Um and that for some people that's like an instant miss. Um fine though because we've got we've got Jaba who lights up like a Christmas day. So I was I was going to get to Java. Jaba clearly was when they'd all been out in the piss and thought let's have a Java Java that lights up. Right. I So I take that. It's not it's not I'm just looking at it kind of chuckling. It's it's I Dave, if there's a game you need to mod, it's that bloody Jab of the Hut. Honest to God, just get rid of it. Um, so there are mod makers on this game, very talented mod makers, so it is going to get a lot of um attention. Um, but you have to be into a game to to mod it, otherwise you're just being a little bit um disingenuous, aren't you? you know, like so yeah, for me I just I mean I sort of like I'm a massive Star Wars fan as well, particularly the first three movies like you know for me that you know the original Star Wars which is now known as A New Hope that is kind of like a formative movie in my sure my growing up you know like and unlike all the cool kids who are into Han Solo you know Luke Skywalker was my guy you know like I you know, I must have seen it. I must have seen that movie like over 50 times, I'm sure. Yeah. And if it's ever on telly, I'll I'll watch it again. You know, like Back to the Future. Um, and so, you know, like I would love for there to be a Star Wars pinball machine that I that I really feel captures what's in my head. And maybe it doesn't exist, you know, may and maybe that's the whole problem with the new Star Wars films and whatever. You know, we're never going to be able to recapture our youth in that way. We're never going to feel the same way. I just I think there is though, right, that we've seen manufacturers like Barrels, like JGP, like Spooky, they all show what we can expect from a a game where they have huge investment in the theme. I just feel like Stern have a knack of going, we've got the best theme ever, and we're just going to do the most minimal viable product. Yeah. I just I just I think and I totally agree. I was thinking exactly what you were just saying there. But I just feel bearing in mind that there's you got to apply context to anything when you're talking about anything. The context of Stern is the year we've been talking about and some of the games we've already discussed. The competition is higher than ever. Sure. The additional context is they're launching a spike three, which is them saying, "Right, this is our next push up. We see what everyone else is doing. Um, I see I see you and I raise you this." And I think at that point you go, "Right, we're going to do spike three. Keith, you're on this. You're designing You're designing Star Wars. We're going to do Radcows. We're going to put it out there. There is going to be All right. Not a flying Millennium Falcon, but there's going to be something big. Yeah. And something like, funny enough, like Kong breaking the train, whatever. Pick your scene from Star Wars or whatever, Empire Strikes Back, something like that. It's going to be big. It's going to be in the corner and it is going to be something like that. Um, banther or or something, anything. And I and I just think you you can't then do that because then you get to the point well actually this is spike three. Um John Borg's doing it. Not not Keith not our best designer. Um and oh by the way it's not really available everywhere. And I just think well okay you can do that but so much of pinball is based on FOMO. So I've gone and ordered I've not played Beat Juice but I've ordered one. It's it's FOMO. That's what it is. Um um I know I well we all know somebody um who who possibly makes other things that get stuck on a pinball machine who saw the Winchester um I'm having one of those and he went and ordered one that's FOMO and unfortunately if you don't grab people with the FOMO which Stern didn't do with Star Wars then the next shiny thing comes along in two more weeks think oh I'll have that one instead and and to be honest with you I' I'd until we started talking about it I'd even forgotten that Star Wars existed and that's a problem Yeah. And you think a big title like that. But I mean, good point though about the this is Spike, got big screen and yet we've seen two titles come out that have used very little of it. Yeah. I I I do wonder sometimes they do misstep a bit. Three is a cost coming exercise. You not a it's it's not a grand iteration or a reinvention of that platform. You know, it was it was designed to make the the assembly process cheaper and bring things in house, right? Couple of blingy items in like they have to upgrade the speakers, they have to upgrade the screen to say, "No, no, no, it is an upgrade because the, you know, see we've got these things, but ultimately it was about redesigning the board so they're cheaper to make." Um, and I mean, we don't have absolute confirmation of that, but that is my strong suspicion that that is that is the case. And for me, and I know Neil disagrees with me on this because he he loves the sound of the new speakers, but I believe they've made a huge misstep going for having two cones. I think it ruins the look of the backbox. I think it ruins the look of speaker lights and you've got these figure of eight patterns going on and it's just like circles just look so much cleaner and nicer and you can do better lighting effects. I just think that's a huge miss. I think they could have gotten just as good a sound out of a uh like a composite cone speaker. So you have the tweeter in the middle and the Was anyone really asking for a bigger screen either? I don't think they were. Right. I think people have always complained about um the stock speakers of Stern being companies who have um capitalized on that like you know pin stuff you know selling speakers that you know upgrade those things. Um, and it is basically giving the middle finger to all these guys who have produced, you know, a lot of speak lights and got massive stock, you know, ready to sell, you know, that they can no longer sell, you know, for these speakers because they're a different shape, a different size, etc., etc. But, um, you know, I, for me personally, I wasn't impressed by that. And, you know, uh, so Rob um, from Tech Pinball, he got invited to this the Stern uh, what is it? media event. Yeah. He sent me all of his footage and he said, "Look, I'm gonna, you know, release my footage. I want I want your take on it." And he was quite glind in his sort of but he didn't show me. He's like, "I don't want you to see what I did. just look at the footage and then, you know, record your unboxing, if you will, you know, and and basically, you know, my enthusiasm very quickly dropped off to the point of seeing Jabber and then from then on it was like just tearing it to shreds and it only got worse with the shampoo um bottle heads, you know, midway down the place, of course. Yeah. Pez heads. Yeah. Look, I mean, look, I was making the point uh at Expo in the sense that like you and I'm I love Stern, like I love whatever they do, but I think they're making some huge missteps at the moment. And this what Chris said, right? They have the talent. They have the building the talent in the building. Yeah. And I I think they're making some missteps and I think this is for me is their biggest one so far. um if it was me and obviously it's not a you know like it's very easy to sit back and say what people should and shouldn't do and there's millions of business reasons why people make the decisions that they make but to make the to remake the first three films in the way that they did it and to call it a different title as though it was going to be a new story line that it's not it's just the first three films doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. Um, now obviously when you're putting a machine in a pub or whatever, people want to relate to the first three films or whatever, it's like that's great. But for me, it's like if if I if I was going to do it, I'd just go, "All right, we're going to do the battle of Hoth. We're going to call it the battle of Hoth. It's going to be all the snow stuff. It's going to be about bringing down ADATS and that's the entire pinball machine, you know, and until the wizard mode is like trying to get the the ships off the base or whatever and, you know, destroying turrets. Amazing. That would be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can play for the Rebels, whatever. Um, you know, you could have a loop shot that loops around the ADAT to try and like bring it down. Like there's there's so many simple ideas. It wouldn't have to even be mech heavy, you know, just think about, you know, what those movies do and iterate around that, you know, and I just I just think there was a lack of creativity in it. And I mean, I know people would disagree with that and Neil says it shoots really well. I don't personally think that it does, but I'm not as good as [laughter] I mean, so it's kind of funny, Dave, because what you describe is what's now in the code of this game, right? So, you know, there's a mode where you have to there's a kind of bit where does Han Solo shoot first or not? and they've kind of stringed the whole thing around around progressing in that mode in the way that you kind of describe and for I'll be honest, you know, of all the Star Wars games and it's probably not a great comparator, right? Because none of them are fantastic, but genuinely feels like for the first time you're actually in in the movie playing the game right now. Look, we can all argue about the is there enough on the playfield or not? Is there a big mech or not? Um, largely I'm I like to have mechs and and like have those kind of moments, but actually I don't think this game when you're playing the game. I think the the game play kind of just steps through all of this. And then and again with the sound um and the the reason they need a bigger screen is cuz they they want to add more resolution and trying to add resolution to this this they I'm pretty sure they you can get a 1080p screen though at 15 in which is what they had before. You can Scott but half the people who are blind wouldn't be able to read the stuff that's on it. Maybe maybe right in front of you. That is the big I don't I mean, barrels of fun. I can't remember what screen resolution they're running at, but I'm fairly certain that's to full HD. 1080p. Yes, this is 4K. Stand screen's 4K. Oh, it's 4K, is it? Mute. Lost your sound, Neil. Lost your sound. Still muted. Neil. Yeah, there you go. Sorry. I got a whole lot of Yeah, I didn't realize. So, it's the So, the Spike 3 is a 4K screen, is it now? It's got kids. The beauty of Christmas. [laughter] Sorry. Sorry. I got family proposals giving me grief by the fact I told them not to. Um anyway, to give it some more time though, Neil, because I mean those that does sound fun. Like, you know, the way you're describing sort of the the Guido scene and Han shooting first and stuff like that sounds like something I'd get a lot of enjoyment out of. So, it's it's one of those ones where I was probably tired. had probably had about four beers and you know we dumped on Star Wars. We couldn't hit the Death Star shot. I started banging on about how nobody needed another Death Star and another pinball machine and then you Steve Richie in the face the screen the screen and the I just sorry to come back to that right but the screen I mean this is the thing that's different about St. And they do actually test a few things before they kind of commit to it because when they commit to something it's in the millions, you know, they're they're on a so you get something like the screen wrong and you got a lot of screens going in the bin and and you know that's that's that's something that's something that um is painful when you get it wrong. I could tell you right and I I've got awful eyesight so that so screens like I'm I'm using this huge screen here. It's something that that's important. And I can tell you right now, you put a high resolution on that screen and you try and then use the video. So licensers won't let you use video clips and put your own graphics over them. They just they just they refuse point blank to do that. So you've got to figure out a way of putting having that having that video there, then putting all the other information that you need on it. And and look at Godzilla as an example, the probably the best game of all time, right? But it's irritating as hell when it's playing 14 videos and you're trying to figure out where you are in the game or even what your score is. Right. Yes. So I think, you know, there's there's a there's a give and take. There's a given there's a give and take around um where they are in in terms of trying to use more of that screen, I think. And what they were definitely trying to what they didn't want to do was make the backbox wider, which I totally get because it fits through a door. Um, you know, you try and fit any other No. Yeah. No, what Davey said, people hate change. You change that form factor, you're screwing yourself. Well, it's not. It's It's just Look, I You ask anyone who's got a normal house that took delivery of a pulp fiction. It's a freaking nightmare to get that. It is. Yeah. But um look, just a a a big shout out to um everyone Gonzo Flipama on YouTube, Davia Stumbler Mods, Scott and I on on Great Brit British Pinball Podcast, Martin who couldn't make it on Pinball News. Um have a great Christmas everyone. Have a great new year. Sorry about my grandson who was deposited upon me out of surprise. The highlight, Nate. He was comic relief. Um, everyone have a great pinball Christmas and we will see you in the new year. Merry Christmas. Bye.

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 2c2361e9-746d-452f-9605-170e83cb9f82*