# Ep 77: Balls

**Source:** Final Round Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2024-01-30  
**Duration:** 68m 33s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.finalroundpinball.com/final-round-pinball-podcast-ep-77-balls/

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## Analysis

Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins discuss the divisive launch of Stern's Jaws pinball machine, debating criticism over its art style and the "Gobblegate" controversy around whether the shark eats the ball. They explore themes in modern pinball—licensed IP vs. original games, the rumored Pokemon machine, and how player experience differs between watching videos and actually playing machines. The episode also touches on Keith Elwin's design legacy and competitive pinball community dynamics at InDisc.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Jaws is one of the most divisive launches in recent times for Stern — _Martin Robbins, discussing community reaction to Jaws reveal_
- [HIGH] Jurassic Park is Stern's best game ever made — _Jeff Teolis, personal opinion about his top-ranked Stern title_
- [HIGH] The primary complaint about Jaws is the playfield art, not the 'Gobblegate' ball-eating mechanic — _Martin Robbins, analyzing community sentiment objectively_
- [MEDIUM] Rock band machines (like AC/DC, Metallica, Iron Maiden) don't sell as well as assumed, despite built-in fanbase — _Jeff Teolis, discussing licensing strategy and sales performance_
- [MEDIUM] Pokemon is rumored to be coming as a pinball machine — _Jeff Teolis, introducing rumor for discussion_
- [HIGH] Richard Dreyfuss provided voice work for the Jaws pinball machine — _Jeff Teolis, citing actor involvement in game audio_
- [MEDIUM] The playfield art for Jaws was done by the same artist who designed Rush — _Martin Robbins, attempting to recall artist name (uncertain recall)_
- [HIGH] Keith Elwin has designed six games, including Bond — _Discussion between hosts about Elwin's design portfolio_

### Notable Quotes

> "I think if I can just say it, overall, most people are dissatisfied with the look of the game. Okay? It's actually been, I would say, overall, one of the most divisive launches in recent times for Stern."
> — **Martin Robbins**, early segment
> _Core thesis about Jaws reception beyond just Gobblegate criticism_

> "Play the fucking game. so wait wait wait wait wait so it's easy to then logically say what is it if someone if someone said to you oh i just i don't like you go okay what about it that you don't like oh it doesn't it doesn't eat the ball it's actually not a big deal"
> — **Martin Robbins**, mid-segment
> _Central argument that actual gameplay matters more than feature criticism_

> "I categorically, I think Jurassic Park is Stern's best game ever made."
> — **Jeff Teolis**, mid-segment
> _Personal ranking statement that frames design philosophy discussion_

> "Keyboard warriors zero manufacturers zero you'll never win that war the keyboard warriors always have their say"
> — **Martin Robbins**, mid-segment
> _Commentary on online criticism vs. actual product performance_

> "Fuck, I miss original games. I'm sorry I'll say it. I know people, especially operators, don't want that because it doesn't get that first quarter interest."
> — **Jeff Teolis**, mid-segment
> _Expresses preference for original IP over licensed themes despite market pressures_

> "The only way you can really feel a pinball machine is if you actually play it... You cannot actually get a visceral experience, a true visceral experience, until you actually play a game and you feel it kinetically."
> — **Martin Robbins**, late segment
> _Core philosophy about why hands-on experience matters for judgment_

> "I don't think rock bands, rock machines sell as well as you might think."
> — **Jeff Teolis**, mid-segment
> _Challenges assumption about themed pinball market performance_

> "Congratulations to the seasoned veteran, Keith Elwin. final round endorses you as a seasoned veteran. It is unanimous."
> — **Jeff Teolis**, late segment
> _Humorous conclusion to ongoing debate about Elwin's industry standing_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Jeff Teolis | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast; pinball enthusiast, game analyst, tournament observer |
| Martin Robbins | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast; based in Australia; pinball analyst with strong opinions on design and community |
| Keith Elwin | person | Pinball designer at Stern; designed Jaws, Jurassic Park, Bond, and other titles; competitive player; discussed in terms of design philosophy and industry status |
| Jeremy Packer | person | Pinball artist; full-time hire at Stern; created artwork for Deadpool and Jaws; known for busy, detailed art style |
| Richard Dreyfuss | person | Actor; provided voice work for Jaws pinball machine |
| Jerry Thompson | person | Sound engineer for Jaws pinball; handles voice-over integration and audio design |
| Ryan C. | person | Co-host mentioned in Head2Head Pinball Podcast; referenced for sharing story about duping someone |
| Elwyn | person | Pinball designer; designed Jurassic Park (referenced as producing notable dinosaur head mechanic) |
| Stern | company | Major pinball manufacturer; recent releases include Jaws and Jurassic Park; employs Jeremy Packer and Keith Elwin |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer; recent games include Texas Chainsaw and Looney Tunes |
| Jaws | game | New Stern pinball machine based on 1975 film; divisive launch with criticism over art style and ball-eating mechanic ('Gobblegate'); features upper playfield, Richard Dreyfuss voice work, mechanical shark |
| Jurassic Park | game | Stern pinball game; features T-Rex head mechanic; Jeff rates it Stern's best game ever; praised for design depth and playability |
| Deadpool | game | Stern pinball machine; features busy artwork by Jeremy Packer; discussed as example of detailed art style |
| Game of Thrones | game | Licensed pinball game; Jeff watched TV series through season 3; discusses importance of IP knowledge for gameplay enjoyment |
| The Walking Dead | game | Licensed pinball machine; features Well Walker and Bicycle Girl references; discussed as example of minimal but recognizable IP elements |
| Led Zeppelin | game | Rock-themed pinball machine; referenced as example of licensed IP with iconic assets (Zeppelin toy) |
| AC/DC | game | Rock band pinball machine; discussed as best-selling rock machine of all time; designed by Lyman Code and Steve Ritchie |
| Iron Maiden | game | Rock-themed pinball machine; compared with AC/DC; requires high skill level to enjoy fully |
| Foo Fighters | game | Rock-themed pinball machine; recent release; likely Game of the Year contender; compared favorably with other rock machines |
| Metallica | game | Rock-themed pinball machine; former top-rated Stern game; designed by Steve Ritchie; compared with other rock machines |
| InDisc | event | Major pinball tournament in Melbourne, Australia; Martin Robbins watched; described as first major of the year |
| Pokemon | game | Rumored pinball machine in development; major IP with broad recognition; discussed as potential challenge for adult market and gameplay design |
| Head2Head Pinball Podcast | media | Pinball podcast co-hosted by Ryan C.; referenced by Final Round hosts for pinball content and discussions |
| Jack Danger | person | Pinball content creator; mentioned for Dead Flip video analysis of Jaws; known for gameplay streams and commentary |
| Steve Ritchie | person | Legendary pinball designer; designed AC/DC and Metallica; referenced as industry veteran alongside Lawler and Mark Ritchie |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Jaws (Stern) launch reception and divisiveness, Playfield art design and visual aesthetics in pinball, Licensed IP vs. original themes in pinball game design, The importance of hands-on play vs. video/photo criticism
- **Secondary:** Rumored Pokemon pinball machine and market viability, Keith Elwin's design legacy and industry standing, Rock-themed pinball machines and sales performance, Competitive pinball community and InDisc tournament

### Sentiment

**Mixed** (0.55) — Overall positive about pinball and Keith Elwin's design capabilities, but critical and frustrated with online community negativity surrounding Jaws. Hosts are protective of the industry and dismissive of keyboard warrior criticism. Tone is humorous and conversational but carries underlying tension about market pressures on IP selection vs. design quality.

### Signals

- **[sentiment_shift]** Jaws launch met with significant community negativity focused on art style and 'Gobblegate' ball-eating mechanic, described as one of most divisive Stern launches in recent memory (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins: 'I would say, overall, one of the most divisive launches in recent times for Stern.' Discussion of hostile reaction and keyboard warrior criticism pervasive on social media and Pinside.
- **[product_strategy]** Industry shift toward older, established IP (Jaws 1975, Texas Chainsaw, classic rock bands) driven by operator demand for recognized themes; tension between this strategy and desire for original IP (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'I fuck, I miss original games.' Discussion of how operators prioritize IP for quarter interest over game design quality.
- **[design_philosophy]** Underwater/sea-based theme inherently limits playfield art complexity and visual density compared to busy, detailed themes like Deadpool; blue color palette presents artistic challenge (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins analyzing Jaws art: 'there's lots of blue and it's not all that detailed it couldn't be detailed so it kind of looks a bit bland' with acknowledgment that Jeremy Packer did well within constraints
- **[gameplay_signal]** Jaws features upper playfield with limited shot opportunities (one to two shots); Keith Elwin design choice intentionally restricts upper playfield access (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins: 'I talked to Keith about the upper play field. I said, that was kind of shocking. And he said to me at InDisc, he said, do you think you're going to be up there a long time? You get one, maybe two shots.'
- **[machine_intel]** Pokemon pinball machine rumored to be in development; unconfirmed but discussed as serious industry possibility (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis: 'There's a rumor of a Pokemon pinball machine coming out.' No official source cited; presented as community speculation.
- **[content_signal]** After initial negative photo reaction to Jaws, gameplay video streams (Jack Danger's Dead Flip) shifted perception toward optimism about actual playability and rule depth (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins: 'I wanted to see the gameplay stream because there was so much negativity' and 'I watched the game and I went, actually, he's done it again. It looks great.' Contrast with early photo-based criticism.
- **[community_signal]** Hosts express frustration with online critical discourse on Pinside and social media; argue that photo/video criticism from non-players is invalid without hands-on experience (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins: 'Keyboard warriors zero manufacturers zero you'll never win that war the keyboard warriors always have their say' and 'The only way you can really feel a pinball machine is if you actually play it.'
- **[design_innovation]** Jaws secured Richard Dreyfuss for voice work; hosts debate whether authentic actor voice work materially improves gameplay vs. professional voice actors (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis asking about voice work quality; Martin Robbins indifferent: 'I'm completely indifferent to it. I don't think it makes the game any better.' Notes that actor talent ≠ voice-over talent.
- **[market_signal]** Jeff Teolis argues rock-themed machines (despite built-in fanbase) underperform relative to expectations; AC/DC cited as best-selling rock game but questioned whether others match Jurassic Park or Foo Fighters sales (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis: 'I don't think rock bands, rock machines sell as well as you might think.' Discussion of AC/DC vs. Iron Maiden vs. Foo Fighters performance metrics without concrete sales data.
- **[design_philosophy]** Debate over whether players need IP familiarity to enjoy licensed games; hosts present conflicting views—Game of Thrones improved by watching show, but Jurassic Park fun without film knowledge; suggests good design works for both audiences (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins on Jurassic Park design: 'They've just put enough in there so people will go, oh, okay' without deep IP knowledge. Contrasts with Pokemon risk where gameplay tied to character knowledge.
- **[personnel_signal]** Jeremy Packer recently hired full-time by Stern as dedicated pinball artist; hosts praise artwork quality despite differing views on busy vs. minimalist aesthetic (confidence: high) — Martin Robbins: 'Jeremy, zombie-yetty, I think you're a wonderful artist. I think you're fantastic. You got a winner, Stern, in hiring him full-time.'

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## Transcript

 The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Hello and welcome to final round. My name is Jeff Teolas. My name is Martin Robbins and this is episode 77. Well done to us. Last year we had a lot of jokes and maybe got away from some other things. And you know what? I think for 2024 we're going to go a little more mature for final round. We did have some fun last episode. People love that show. We didn't talk pinball once. No, we mentioned pinball many times. We just didn't talk about it. Our intent was to get to it. Really, that was just a show for us. That's the old final round. It is time for us to get back to the reason why people listen to our content. On today's show, Marty picks which side he's rooting for in the Middle East and why he hates the other. Go ahead, Marty. going back to that you you you say we're going back to what our fans like the most amount of feedback i think i've ever had was that last episode where we didn't talk him more it was pretty funny even keel and piped in i can say this now because we talked about your love of jaws 3d and how you walked out of the theater and he sent me a message funny you talked about 3d and I was like, wait a second. Oh, because there's a 3D mode in it. Yes. Yes. Which is very cool. I know you want to talk about Jaws. I'm just going to say I've seen the pictures. I have not seen one video. So the good news is every other podcast in the world has seen Jaws video, have described it. So I assume you have. I'm excited by the play field. I could give a shit about whether the ball goes in the mouth of Jaws. I mean, there's enough. Who cares? You care. You love putting balls in the mouth, don't you? So I was going to make a balls in the mouth joke. And basically it was going to say, if you had a ball in front of you and you were like, sorry, it's not going in your mouth. I don't think you would. I think you'd be going straight down the gullet. But when I saw the promo video, the fact that the jaws didn't eat the ball, gobble it, did not bother me at all. I just went, oh, okay, the shark looks kind of cool, a bit small, and not really all that menacing. But I didn't really care that much. But fuck me dead. Gobblegate, is that what we're going to call it? Sure. where everybody is up in arms about the fact that the Jaws doesn't actually eat the ball. I'm going to tell you what I think the issue is. You ready? Go ahead. I think if I can just say it, overall, most people are dissatisfied with the look of the game. Okay? It's actually been, I would say, overall, one of the most divisive launches in recent times for Stern. Right? I will counterpoint by saying I don't know of a game that had more hype than this. So anything that was shown was going to be somewhat of a disappointment because they built this up like the greatest things in sliced bread. They didn't. They being pin side and, yeah, not stern. Yeah, bing, bing, bing all the fuckwits. So there was all these expectations. And basically people were not satisfied with what they saw. Play the fucking game. so wait wait wait wait wait so it's easy to then logically say what is it if someone if someone said to you oh i just i just don't like you go okay what about it that you don't like oh it doesn't it doesn't eat the ball it's actually not a big deal because there are plenty of other games that do something similar but the ball doesn't actually get gobbled right it's just a bash toy it'd be like saying oh my god the well walker in the walking dead the ball doesn't actually go into a whale. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter. If you listen to this podcast, my other podcast, Pinball Profile, or anything else I've been a part of, when Elwyn gave us Jurassic Park, you had the LE, if I recall. It's true. I said, wow, you're paying a lot of money for that stupid dinosaur head to eat the ball. I don't see the justification in that. I still don't to this day. Oh, but it's so cool. The first time... No. No, I never got sick of it, and I don't care that it ate the ball i like the fact that it was a mechanical head that moved around it looked fucking cool i don't care whether it ate the ball or not but it was cool when it did it okay do i need to bring on mrs pin to tell you that that wasn't a t-rex head that fucking long head doesn't matter it doesn't matter you're you're you're not letting me get to the point you're taking forever there jenny let's go no well it's by the way it's saturday night for me sunday afternoon gin o'clock in australia oh here we go it's gonna be a good one 77 it really is it really is so the point is that people are dissatisfied with the overall look and i would say if i can try and objectively look at it i would say the The issue that people have the most is the art. Let me explain. I like it. I actually really like it. I like the pro a lot. No, the cabinet art's great. The play field art is the problem. And it's very, it was, I can't remember the, I do know the name of the guy. I just can't remember. The guy who did Rush. Yes. Michael Barnard, Michael Barnard, Michael Barnard, Michael Barnard, someone Michael Barnard. Anyway. Way to butcher his name. Professional broadcasting. Welcome to Plano Round. here we go so the issue is that you had to draw an underwater or a sea based thing the problem with that is there's lots of blue and it's not all that detailed it couldn't be detailed so it kind of looks a bit bland it's a bit bland and i think that whoever whoever was that did the art i think he would have been restricted wouldn't have been able to do anything else so i say to you, it's a shit theme. It's hard to actually make that theme visually look amazing. If you actually put like that busy, zombie-yetty Marvel art all over it, it wouldn't look like Jaws. No, but it would look a lot more packed and feature-rich and you know what I mean? Can I say this now? First of all, Jeremy, zombie-yetty, I think you're a wonderful artist. I think you're fantastic. You got a winner, Stern, in hiring him full-time. I feel the same way about Franchi art. I remember Franchi talking about Jaws and how difficult it would be to do artwork for Jaws on the playfield. So, here we're seeing this. Well, I didn't know that. I like Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) a lot. I like his artwork. My only complaint, and it's not even a complaint, it's an artistic preference. That's not a complaint. For me, his art is too busy, especially Deadpool, for example. There's just so much on there. I like that on Jaws, it's a little more simplistic. I like that. You know what? When you throw the chum in the water, you're going to see the play field get a little red and stuff. I think that's brilliant. Don't clutter it up with shit that doesn't need to be there. Yes, I agree with you. But what I will say is the optical illusion that it gives, right? It makes it look like there's so much more going on than there actually is. If you put a whitewood of Deadpool next to a whitewood of Jaws, Jaws would have more features on it but the the art that Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) does gives you that illusion that there's there's so much going on which is just genius what he does is fantastic right so that's what i think the problem that people have with jaws is they're looking at going oh it's just a bit open there's not much there that's actually not true there's a lot there and you said you haven't watched the gameplay video i did and it oh fuck it looks like it's going to be so much fun to shoot it really does i think that we all know that you know he he knows how to make a good layout and that's what he's done season veteran Keith Elwin Keith Elwin he's not a season veteran he fucking is no he's not and five games he's not he's not yeah well six have included bond yeah well you heard head to head i don't agree that all of them are good yeah i know you're team borg who i also love but uh oh oh we talked about that i'm not team anyone i talked about that with keith at indisc and uh he has some choice words for you dead man walking and he's other than he's recording him saying yeah i can't um no he wouldn't he knows i love him in that way we heard head to head uh wow wow wow wow yeah so we only do it once a year did you get any complaints about that show did anybody complain anybody tuning out you know we did you know we got a lot well no we didn't get a few complaints ryan told me that story about making out with a dude back i think in the summer i said please dear god save that for head to head making out with making out with a dude part wasn't the funny part well it was funny in the sense that he was duped yeah but you know it's not funny that oh who gives a shit whether he's making out with a dude he was duped and kind of surprised at his reaction and the cool the aggressiveness of it. Cool. That made me laugh. No, I get it. But when he's telling the story to you, it's like, oh, my God, tell the story to me. It's like fucking, you know, I've heard a dollar every time. So anyway, that was anyway. All I'm saying is I don't think greatest of all time and I don't think seasoned veteran. So anyway. When does he become a seasoned veteran for you? He's 20 years. Oh, fuck off. 20 years. 20 years. A veteran. A veteran. So only Lawler and Steve Ritchie and maybe Mark Ritchie are seasoned veterans? Yes. A veteran. It's a fucking old thing. It's something that happens over a long period of time. Keith's over 50. He gets a senior's discount in certain places in the States. He does. It's true. But I go back to my point. You can't, in the film world, you can't have somebody that does three great films and go, oh, they're a seasoned veteran. No, they're not. They've only done fucking, yeah, over what period of time? let's say six years, that's not long enough. But what if you won the Academy Award for best actor in all six of those films you're in? We're not going to agree with this. You're wrong. You know you are. We love him. You can't admit you're wrong. That's what the problem is. No, it's not. A seasoned veteran is a longer-term thing. Keep it that way. Is all I'm saying. Don't get me wrong. As I said, I maintain, I think Jurassic Park, Here, I've said it before, but I'll say it now. Categorically, I think Jurassic Park is Stern's best game ever made. I used to say that was Metallica. What is your definition of best game? Best includes rules, art, everything, all encompassing? Well, it's the X Factor. It's everything that just makes you want to play the game again. And when you're not playing the game, it makes you think about wanting to play the game. Hmm. There you go. I haven't played Jaws, so I can't give any opinion on that. I've only seen the pictures. I'm looking forward to playing it. I know people that have played it and loved it. Of course. I talked to Keith about the upper play field. I said, that was kind of shocking. And he said to me at InDisc, he said, do you think you're going to be up there a long time? You get one, maybe two shots. Yeah, which is cool. That's fucking great. It's good. I like it. I like it. I don't love how it looks, but watching Keith play it, and obviously he's better than everybody else, so it's going to make it look easy. It looks like it's just fun, and that's all I want. I want a fun game. And it's really frustrating because everybody is critiquing photos and even gameplay videos, and very few people have actually played it. Well, those people obviously went to CES and now played it, but not a lot of people have played it. People critiquing photos? Hello, welcome to social media and Pinside. They've made a living off this. And podcasts. But sure, it's what we do. Play the game, man. No, I know. I think the reaction to this game was quite hostile, I think I would say. Only with that. It's almost like people, people, oh my God, you've taken my dream away from me. No, they just made a good pinball machine that wasn't exactly what you wanted. That's all. when Harry Potter comes out I'm being serious when Harry Potter comes out people will be thrilled up until the point they show the photos they show the game and there will be an outcry of disappointment oh it doesn't have this oh it's not this what about this book what about this character and there's only so much you can do I don't know again keyboard warriors won manufacturers zero you'll never win that war the keyboard warriors always have their say and And you know what? The test of time will prove us to see how great that game sells. For sure. For sure. That's all that matters. Okay. Another Jaws-related thing. Sure. I know you haven't seen the movie, which baffles my mind. I actually watched it again just because it was so great. It's a movie from 1977, 1976, whenever it was. It's almost 50 years old. You see the pattern of what Stern is doing and other manufacturers trying to get some sort of IP. Spooky gave us a 50-year-old movie in Texas Chainsaw. Looney Tunes, which haven't been relevant in a long time, which I think, but I'm not knocking it. I get both those themes. I think they're great themes for Spooky, and I'm sure they'll do very well. Elton John is an icon. He's in his 70s and done touring. Fuck, I miss original games. I'm sorry I'll say it. I know people, especially operators, don't want that because it doesn't get that first quarter interest. But conversely, we hear so many people, oh, it's a fucking 50-year-old movie. Or, oh, can't they do anything modern? Or, oh, it's another classic rock band. By the way, on that note, do you think classic rock bands, I mean, you certainly have a built-in audience. You know, I'm a diehard Zeppelin person. I didn't care what the game was like. I was buying it. You've got that fan base for those bands. Foo Fighters is probably going to win the game of the year, and rightfully so. It's a wonderful game. Don't know how well it sold. I think it did okay. But did it sell as well as Jurassic Park or some other games? My point is, as great as Foo Fighters is, if you don't love the band, as great as Iron Maiden is, if you don't love the band, you're probably not going to be into spending that kind of money in that pinball machine if you're only having a few pinball machines. So in one sense, you've got a fan base. but the game has to be great. And these games are great, but the theme, I mean, the theme is maybe a deterrent. Operators will say the theme is important to get quarters in, but it can also be a deterrent. My point is I don't think rock bands, rock machines sell as well as you might think. What do you think the best-selling rock machine of all time is? What do you think it is? ACDC. Well, you're right. I would imagine ACDC and Metallica are probably one, too. But ACDC is a little more, you know, it's not as heavy as an Iron Maiden or Metallica. It's a little more mainstream. But again, it's an older band. It's Lyman Code. It's Steve Ritchie Flow. Is ACDC a better game than other rock bands that have come out? Is ACDC as good a game as Foo Fighters? Oh, yeah. Easily. Easily. Maybe. I would say, you've asked me, my answer is easily. but is ACDC better than Iron Maiden in some aspects yes but I would say I would say I would say I would say Iron Maiden pips it but just it's a pipping. It's not a, oh, it's an absolute win. I think they both have very good merits. I don't know. I think ACDC is just a, what Steve Ritchie said, therefore it's just a balls-out fun game. Iron Maiden, you've really got to be good at pinball. Yeah. So, okay, back to your comment, right? Original themes. So the issue that you've got, it's not just that a licensed theme or even a known theme has instant purchases. It does, but the game has still got to be good to get beyond the guaranteed sales. The issue I think we've all seen so far with original IPs, they're not established, so you've got to establish that as an IP. And establishing an IP is very difficult. And if I can talk about the big ones that people have tried, you've got Dialed In, you've got Total Nuclear Annihilation, Black Knight, I would put that down there. It's semi-original IP, if you know what I mean. and then you've got galactic tank battle um or force what sorry or force yeah yep that's the one yep jcf the issue that you've got with those is they're very polarizing nobody nobody's got any existing emotional connection so they look at it very logically do i like that yes or no you're not buying it until you play it i get that yeah i'm going somewhere with this there's a rumor of a Pokemon pinball machine coming out. Sure. I understand Pokemon is a major phenomenon. Pokemon Go, I know adults playing this to this day, not only kids, but it's really big. It was a little after my time. I couldn't give two shits about a Pokemon game. And in fact, it might actually be a difficult game. It could be the greatest game ever. The seasoned veteran could make it for all I know. And I would have a difficult time because, fuck, I don't know anything about the characters, and if that's part of the gameplay, I'm screwed. And sometimes these games with these IPs have that element. And, oh, shit. Pokemon, if and when that comes out, that's going to be a tough game for me. But that being said, it's a great IP. Everyone knows it. Kids will like it. Probably adults, too. Yeah, not a lot of adults. I say that respectfully because I've played Pokemon. Okay. A, I've played Pokemon. Where did you line up to get a special? I can't even make a name. A Belzasaur? Charizard. Where did you line up to get your Charizard stuffy? Come on. You could have said Pikachu, right? Obviously. Pikachu, sure. So I've played the original Game Boy games. I've played some more recent ones. Pokemon Snap was awesome, just as an FYI. but also mega nerd time i used to play the collectible card game this show's done we're done we're done but that was when i was back into collectible cards and that wasn't just three years ago we're done yeah it was five it was 25 years ago anyway a long time ago all i'm saying to you is unlike you i've got a lot of personal investment in pokemon okay so i understand i what I guess what I'm saying is I would understand the theme better than you. I still don't think it's a great theme for pinball. I really don't. Because I think the Venn diagram of pinball fans, Pokemon fans is very small. It's a very small section in the middle. So it's got to be a great game. I would think they would be missing the mark if they do make Pokemon. And as much as this pains me to say this, there are going to be killer video modes in that, which is really not pinball, but how can you not with a brand like Pokemon? You have to. No, not really, because what you've got to understand, the whole premise of Pokemon is you are using Pokemon to battle other Pokemon, and then you are collecting other things to upgrade your Pokemon to level two and level three. Sorry, I know nothing about Pokemon. So you have... Obviously. I'm not trying to be funny. I know nothing about it. Like you're saying you gather Pokemon to fight other Pokemon? Is this like dog fighting? Yep. So, I mean, I think Monster Hunter was out before Pokemon maybe, so it's been around. Effectively, all you're doing is going around attacking other Pokemon, trying to either destroy them or capture them, and then you've got to feed them to try and evolve them into their different levels. And the stronger they are, they evolve into different types, and then they can then battle bigger ones. It's not complicated. There's usually, they are RPG based, so they are like a role playing game, but the battle mechanics are pretty simple. The storylines are pretty simple. You're trying to, you know, go against rival catchers. It's not that complicated, but I think that there's enough there for it to make a fun game. Visually, I think you've got a really good art package to start with, like a good canvas is already there. I just don't think you've got a market in the adult world. And as much as everybody says, oh, it's for the kids, kids will not spend $10,000 on a fucking pinball machine. That's bullshit. I'm still trying to figure out Pokemon. So you're trying to catch them all, I assume against their free will, enslave them, feed them to make them train to be bigger and better to catch other Pokemon. It puts on the lotion style. fuck me yeah no it's um it's been a very very long time since i've played pokemon well i think to the maybe one person listening to this podcast other than myself who's who's never played pokemon they understand my questioning of what the hell is pokemon like really it's what i'm saying to you though is that i understand pokemon and i'm agreeing with you like what why forget all that i just don't want to have to learn poke i definitely don't want to you won't have to you won't have to here's something i never saw an episode of game of thrones before i started playing the game yeah do you need it not really is it better when you when you watch the show i'm actually watching it again for the third time uh we're on season three right now which i think the game was made up until. And the game I find is more fun because I know the IP. I know the television show. I would imagine if I knew Pokemon, the game would be a lot more fun. Fuck, I've never, ever, ever seen Jurassic Park the movie. I still think the game's fun. There's things I don't understand about the game. Sure. But that's good design because as someone that's like, well, I'm just going to put the stuff in it that anybody will understand. There'll be a couple of little Easter eggs that the true fans will understand. but you don't need to. Do you know, I saw that there was announced another, well, I knew, I guess you, Walking Dead spinoff show, right? And then I realized it's called The Ones Who Lived. And then I realized there's actually six. There's actually six spinoffs. There's Fear the Walking Dead, The Ones Who Live, Daryl Dixon, The Book of Carol? Dead City? Walking Dead, Dead City? And what's this one? Tales of the Walking Dead? Oh, I don't know. They are fucking milking that. I tried watching it, and I think I got through season one. And then I think I saw the one episode where Negan came in and started bashing heads just for the gore of it. I like that kind of shit. But I can't get into that show. But that being said, The Pinball Machine, which really has not a lot to do with a TV show at all. That's not true. That's not true. Oh, it's got everything to do. Whatever you see in that game is from the pinball machine. Sorry, sorry. What's on the pinball machine is from the show. But there's not a lot. The prison and the well walker and zombies, that's pretty much it. I mean, they haven't done anything that's outside the show. But sort of what I'm saying about Jurassic Park, they've just put enough in there so people will go, oh, okay. Like the well walker. Do you know? Obviously, you've seen Season 1, so you know what the Well Walker is. But if people haven't seen it, well, it was a zombie that was stuck in a well. That's all it was. And Bicycle Girl, I think, was in Episode 1, and it was a girl that had been chopped in half as a zombie, and she was near a bicycle. It wasn't like they needed to put stuff that you go, oh, I wonder what that is. You go, oh, well, that must have been, if it's called a Well Walker, it's probably a zombie that was in a well. I do get a kick out of fanboys, if you will. Sure. And I'm not trying to be gender specific. That's just the name they call themselves when they talk about their love for Jurassic Park. I'm pretty sure, knowing a little bit of what I do about the movie Jurassic Park, that game really has nothing to do with the movie Jurassic Park at all. There are no movie assets. Also not true. Oh, come on. No, it's not true. They're not playing movie clips, but everything that you see is based on the movie. Because there's a T-Rex in it, and they have the Jurassic Park font, and that's it. Not even the Jeep's the right Jeep. It's a fake Jeep. It doesn't matter. It's still a vehicle. The premise of the game is based on the movie. It doesn't mean that it has to be line by line exactly the movie. That is bullshit. If Led Zeppelin didn't have the fucking Zeppelin toy and it was a hot air balloon, I'd be like, wait a second here. That's not Zeppelin. Until you watch the movie, you have no opinion. Until you watch Jaws, you have no opinion. I've seen Jaws. You have not. You saw Jaws 3D. Have you got, like, selective memory? What's going on here? I don't remember you saying you watched Jaws. All I told you was that I walked out of Jaws 3D. I never mentioned Jaws 1 or 2. Never even talked about them. Have you seen it? Yes. Okay, well, you watched nothing I watched. Oh, my God. At least this has movie clips. At least it follows the story somewhat. It's got the orca boat. Yeah, it's enough. But look, again, going back to Jurassic Park, I put the movie assets into my game. You did? Yeah. Somebody did some ROM or whatever it is, so you can put all the movie assets into the game. Did it make it better? No. The answer is no. It was good. It was fun. And I kind of went, oh, it's good to see it. but it didn't make it a better game. It was still a good game regardless. Yeah, people did that with Guardians of the Galaxy too. It had movie clips, but they used the right songs and the right voice actors as opposed to bubbly-bo, bubbly-bo. Bubbly-bo, yeah. All I'm saying is what they did with Jurassic Park is they made the story about you. You, the person, are making your way through. If you play a series of clips, well, then you've got a predetermined story, whereas I would rather feel like I am making the story. There you go. Okay. We talked about it with Scooby-Doo. They had the original voice actor for Scooby-Doo and Fred, and it sounded a little aged. Yeah. Okay, they got the real person. That's kind of cool. I personally would have rather heard Marc Silk do all that kind of stuff. You got Richard Richard Dreyfuss for Jaws, and I've heard some of the clips. They sound pretty good. Jerry Thompson certainly knows what he's doing from a sound engineering standpoint. Did they get the right person? Should they have used somebody else? Should they have used a sound alike? Your thoughts, Marty? I think the biggest offensive statement I can say is that I've heard what's in the game, and I'm completely indifferent to it. I don't think it makes the game any better. They are sounds that exist. They are call-outs that happen. they're fine but i don't just because you've got the actor doesn't mean that they're good voice over talent there you go i've said it yeah i haven't seen the video play so i'm sure by the time this airs i will have watched uh jack danger's dead flip i think you and i are both we agree that i don't know if i want to see too much i want to play it first yeah look i wanted to see the gameplay stream because there was so much negativity i thought well, fucking fuck this. I want to actually see the game playing before I actually have my conclusive thoughts. And I watched the game and I went, actually, he's done it again. It looks great. It looks like so much fun. And the rules are deep. I think the rules might be a little bit overly complicated. That's all I'm going to say. But I think it looks fun. Looks like it shoots fun. And that's all you want. And this is the whole thing, everybody. One thing about pinball is it makes you feel something. And I'm telling you this. You may disagree with me on this, Jeff. I'm just going to say something. The only way you can really feel a pinball machine is if you actually play it. There you go. I've said it. I totally thought you were going to talk about just put your balls right up against the sheet. But that's it. Like all these people are going, oh, I just don't like this. Play it. You cannot actually get a visceral experience, a true visceral experience, until you actually play a game and you feel it kinetically. It's the only way you can really make up your mind. How does this game make me feel? Videos and photos do not tell you or convey how it's actually going to make you feel. You've got to play these games. Watch it. Save your judgment until you play it. They'll be out soon everywhere. Congratulations to the seasoned veteran, Keith Elwin. final round endorses you as a seasoned veteran. It is unanimous. He listens to the show. He knows what I think. Yes, and he keeps his distance. You'll never see him again. Hey, you know what? We definitely have to talk about this. The first major of the year. You know, here on Final Round, we talk nothing about pinball. The first major of the year happened and right there in Melbourne, the Australian Open in tennis. Tell us about it, Marty. Go ahead. Has that started? Yes. Okay. Well, I must go and watch it after we've finished recording. Obviously, you're talking about InDisc. I watched a lot of InDisc, and all I can say is I just felt jealousy the whole time. I honestly did. I just wanted to be there. Does that... Okay, so you are a person that watched it, and I'm sure there are other people that watch it that may not play competitively anymore or maybe never have, and you were jealous you weren't there, does that get the juices going, fuck, I wish I, you know what, I still, I like pinball, I'm pretty decent. I probably play more pinball than most people because you do. Your flipper skills are probably outstanding. For one particular game? No, no, but you can apply that anywhere. A drop catch is a drop catch on any machine. So? Accuracy, you certainly know those flippers, but I'm sure it translates to others, your hand eye, and you have no desire to get back into it. Is it just because you're too fucking busy? No. Look, what it is, you know the adrenaline? There is adrenaline that you get when you're playing pinball. You hate losing. What I don't like is the amount of effort and energy that goes into not winning. I can't relate. I'm a competitive player, true and true, really the stuff of legend in Australia, and um what majors have you won let me just point out uh you know i was watching a stream stacy borg was watching too and he was saying i need to give it up about being the greatest player in australia uh sorry stacy sorry stacy borg i i'm just going by stats 47 up 47 down mic drop you want to knock off the champ buck up you fly me back to australia i'll kick your asses again Until then, you bow to your king. My question to you is, when you do a tournament in Australia, you actually get a country ranking. So I'm curious to know what your country ranking, at its max, at its highest, what was it in Australia? Just to determine whether you're the best Australian player. Well, you know, there are three world champions in pinball. There the one who wins the IFPA World Champion the IFPA Open and some people call it the Pinburgh Championship the World Championship So there are different ways to rank number one and don you think for a second i have got the brass at ifpa which by the way is wrapped around my fucking little finger and ask them to prove once and for all that i am the greatest most efficient player in australian history it is undisputable and sorry if I'm only doing this because I've seen some of the backlash from some of you Aussies slash New Zealanders, you're all the same, saying give it up. Well, again, the stats prove it. So what was the highest ranked person that you beat in that tournament? The answer is every one of them. By the way, you had a dinky fucking tournament where you actually won a fucking penis fucking cup which you just put straight into your mouth. It was practically a social gathering. Oh, really? It might as well not have had Whoppers. It was just a dinky tournament. It had a lot of Whoppers. Forty-some people. So it meant nothing. Even Richard Rhodes, your wonderful player who has represented Australia several times, he even showed up for some dollar games after. I fucking took him down too. And that was just exhibition. The facts are still there. Can't be beat. The facts are there. you won one tournament in Australia that you ran and therefore fudged the figures, I'm sure. No, it was streamed. And I didn't play because I put the stream. Otherwise, you would have gone down. Fearful. Yeah. I've made others quit. In that way. So I've been number one in Australia as far as most efficient player ever, actually. In Canada, ended the year number one player. I've since just... You'll like this, Marty. Is that true? Yeah. Two years in a row, I've ended as the number one player in Canada. Now, you'll like this, and this is where you get a little excited, maybe a little bit of glory, because you like seeing sick puppies and things like that. I'm now not number one. The great Jack Tappan is number one in Canada. He had a wonderful Indisc. Now we're getting back to Indisc. Let's talk about that. Indisc, fucking amazing. By the way, I experienced my first ever earthquake. Okay. There was an earthquake that happened. Now, somebody had to tell me there was an earthquake. I didn't notice it. But when you're, how do I say, adding a little extra weight, it takes a little bit more to move you. I didn't feel the movement, but it was actually on stream. And I don't know if you can see the rig move or anything, but a lot of people around me go, Whoa, what was that? And I thought, fuck, I didn't fart. I'm saving that. So, sorry. So you say I experienced an earthquake. Yes. 4.2 or 4.7. Pretty good one. So describe that experience again. Tap on the shoulder. Hey, did you feel that? Amazing experience. You'll take that to the grave, that experience. Enough to get my brother-in-law to say, hey, are you okay? I'm like, what's going on? Not really. I just lost a round in classics. No, no, the earthquake. Oh, fuck, what? Yeah, you just dropped one right in front of a fucking machine. Oh, by the way, I had to take a couple of flights, right? because I was in Vegas first and I had to fly to Denver, fly to Ontario Airport. That's two opportunities of me walking through first class just ready to rip. I'm proud to say, I don't know whether, I assume this podcast has reached everybody across North America that are flying. They said, you know, when Jeff boards the plane, don't look him in the eyes. And I kept it in the chamber. I'm proud to say, but it was ready to go. Okay, but let's talk about InDisc. Can I just say something which is reversing everything? I was more anxious and excited about the high roller, high stakes or whatever it is, tournament, than the Open. Really? I don't know why. I don't know why. I just felt because it was $15,000 as opposed to, I know it was $500 plus a Stern machine, but $15,000 just sounded so much bigger. It is bigger. I know. and I don't know. I just, I felt as an outsider looking in at the broadcast, I felt the open was very by numbers. The high stakes felt high stakes. Let's not take anything away from Zach McCarthy who won his second IFPA Open, his second major two in three years. The funny thing about that, I don't know if you caught any of the stream, there are three days of qualifying. You qualify Thursday, Friday, Saturday, the playoffs are Sunday morning. He didn't even get into the playoffs. until his last ticket, like at 9 o'clock on a Saturday night. He was outside the playoffs and then put up a monster to be the number one seed and just came back and dominated. I don't know if you saw his game of Diner. Did you see that? No, I missed that one. So you know Diner, an old game, right? I do know Diner. Okay. Yep. Fuck stirring the cup for 10 times. Screw it. And this one had different settings, so you had to spell Diner completely. He didn't start off a thing. You couldn't get the easy multi-balls by going in the scoop. So he would spell Diner, then shoot the ramp, and then basically catch the ball or transfer the ball, wait for the spin the cup 10x thing to stop, get back to the left flipper, shoot it again. He did this over and over again just to get $250,000 each time. That was the winning strap, the meta, the new way to play Diner in tough settings. Was it boring to watch then? Maybe to the common person, to those who play the game and know how hard it is to do that. The great players really admired that strategy and the determination to do that. He did something similar to that, and I don't know if it was on stream. I don't think it was, for Pulp Fiction. Which, by the way, did you see any of the stream of Pulp Fiction? I did see a little bit. Give me your thoughts. I didn't see enough to give thoughts on it. It was fine. That's a hell of a ringing endorsement. It's about five minutes of it. Your ringing endorsement kind of rang through a lot of people's thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of money has left Pulp Fiction and gone to Jaws or something else. The game is just, it's got the great call-outs. It's a great theme, all that kind of good stuff. The way the players were attacking it just made the game look a little weak. Sorry to say that because I like them. I love the people involved. Sure. And I was excited to see this game come out, but they got to go back to the drawing board on a few things. Well, I don't think every game needs to be a good tournament game. No, I agree. It's fine as a good flipper. I have never seen a game that featured more timeouts than Pulp Fiction. And in the last five to ten years, five years, holy fuck, timed out everything. The one bit I did see was somebody timing out a mode, and I just went, oh, okay. And that's when I turned off. Not timing out a mode, timing out every single mode. Yeah, you got to make these modes more lucrative then. You do. And you know what? Why doesn't somebody come up with an idea? Feel free to steal this, anyone. When your modes suck, why not go, hey, you know what? You know how you get to the next mode? You got to complete half of this mode. Or you know how you lock a ball? You got to complete a mode as opposed to just an easy backhandable fucking light. Make the modes worth something. and these modes were worth nothing. Or do what Star Trek did, which is if you don't do anything, the timer stops. Oh, the timer stopped. Here's the mistake of the game. The timer stopped after four seconds. The mode seemed to be, I think, 36 or 40 seconds long. So that's nine times of cradling up because you've got to hit a switch. So guys would shat, hit a switch, catch the ball. People time out stuff that's not worth points. It sucks. That's all. It's that simple. Stop the points. You've got a good layout. You've got good design team people there, good rules makers. Go back to the drawing board. I know if you ever go play Pulp Fiction at Logan Arcade, you'll see a high score of, oh, I don't know, 41 million by Keith Elwin. The game currently is broken and needs some fixing. So, hmm, with that being said and how long it takes to make Pulp Fiction, which is people are still waiting, do you think money is leaving and going to Jaws or something else that's ready? Perhaps. That's the way the market is. That's how fickle people are. And I'm not saying – and you have every right to do that. If you want something now and you've got your money, go ahead. I know I wanted a Godzilla. It wasn't ready. I bought an Avengers until Godzilla was ready. Sold Avengers, got Godzilla. Yeah, cool. Anyway, can I just back on INDISC? Yeah. So, Zach McCarthy won ZMAC, as he wants to be known, to differentiate himself from Zach Sharp. Great commentator, FYI. Oh, yeah, he's great. I know. I didn't know. But I just went, oh, hang on. really good balance of banter and knowledge. That's what you're looking for. It was really good. He was actually supposed to be in the finals with Steven Bowden and myself, and because he was in the finals, we were lucky enough to have Kaylee George, who obviously, as a two-time major champ and somebody who knows more about anything when it comes to pinball, certainly than I'll ever know, it was good to have him in. But yeah, getting ZMAC in there for the finals of high stakes. High stakes, congratulations to Dalton Ely, a young, young guy from Georgia, Really great player. Streams every Thursday night. And certainly an animated guy. Very vocal in chats and cartoonist and all that kind of stuff. That's a big, big prize for him to win that $15,000. And he thanked Pin Monk for helping get there. His father, Stephen, was there. And the guy's a great player. Yeah, he was good. It was good to watch. As I said, it just felt high stakes. And I think that the players played differently. I think they were just a little bit more anxious. That's all I'm saying. There you go. Anyway, in-disc, freaking awesome, again. Now, there is something I do want to bring up about the broadcast. Go ahead. Well, there was, I think it was leading up to the, it might have been the open, I can't remember which one it was. Anyway, chat was going off about whether the commentators should be talking about rules or whether they should be calling the action. Good point. Very good point. So that is a fine, fine line because thanks to Pluto at Twitch, we were on the front page, which had 10,000 viewers. And you have to think probably 80%, maybe even 85% were those that are watching pinball for the first time. So what is the balance? Do you explain what you're trying to do in the game? And think of some of the games. Maybe some of the games aren't very knowledgeable. So even to pinball players, it's probably good to know some of the rules. But what is the balance of explaining flipper skills, explaining multi-balls and this and that, explaining stacking? Hmm. It's a fine line. You want a little bit of that, but I don't know if that's enough to turn somebody into pinball forever, whereas the action might be. So I think I would lean, believe it or not, a little more on the play-by-play side because, and somebody once gave me this analogy, I think it was Levy. when the most televised sporting event in the world, the Super Bowl, is on. They don't explain, all right, it's first down. The object here is to try to get 10 yards in the next three downs or you'll have to punt or kick a field goal. They don't really break it down to that basic level. So I think that would be going overboard if you were to do that in pinball, but some sort of rules knowledge. So it's a real tricky balance. I think it's a fair, but I think it's an odd analogy to make because if you think about it with football, there's not a lot of rules in it, right? It's what you do with the rules. Whereas pinball, you could say, oh, now they've just locked a ball or they just hit the ball to the right. People go, well, why? Why did they do that? I don't understand. So people were kicking off in chat saying that they shouldn't be talking about rules and they should just be calling play. But I would argue that, well, I've got eyes. I've seen where the ball's gone. I want to know why. It's a tough balance, and you're going to have both ends of the spectrum for sure. So you do keep in mind that there are a lot of new people, and you want them to get excited into pinball. But I think you get them excited into pinball by telling them what's at stake. You know, we put the big stacks of cash there on the front so that you could see, we're playing for big bucks here. We're playing for a new machine. Here's the history of these players. You know, here's where they're from. Just kind of more inter-stuff because, you know, if you watch a poker television episode, they'll give you details about the players. They won't tell you, you know, that a flush beats a two of a kind. They don't get into a lot of that kind of stuff. They'll talk about probabilities and things like that. So you have to really, really be careful if you're leaning too far one way or the other, a nice balance. This is why I say that Steven Bowden, I still think is the best commentator because what he does is he It compensates on the fly with rules knowledge at the same time. He gets it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, he gets it for sure. Yep. So there you go. But, yeah, again, congratulations to you and the team for a phenomenal stream. Again, it was very engaging. That's, again, Carl D'Python Anghelo, IE Pinball, Jim Belsito, Jay Collins. Big shout-out to Jordan and Rebecca from Fliptronic who really stepped in. I don't even know if you know this. Carl D'Python Anghelo was sick the last two days. He wasn't even there Saturday. I did hear. I did hear. Someone said in chat. Yep. So the fact that the stream was seamless was certainly due to Jordan and Pluto and Rebecca and everybody else behind the scenes, Emoto, all helping out with that kind of video aspect. And Carl for certainly setting it all up because you had to be sick for Carl not to be there. And we certainly wish him well. I haven't reached out to him since. I know he told me on Sunday he was feeling better than Saturday. so I hope that trend continues. Awesome. So that's one major, but there was another major that was announced. Ooh, Pinberg is back. I know a little bit about this. I'm curious your thoughts, Marty. Oh, but it's only 120 players. It's... What? Is that the same person who says, the ball didn't go in the mouth? Yes. Yep. Yep. Yeah, look, I was, I must say, I was tipped off before the announcement that the sticking point is going to be the maximum number of players. Okay. And it was, but fuck off, people. Yeah. Just because I just thought, fucking hell, these people, they sold all their machines, they just had a fire sale, the whole thing ended, and now they're trying to bring it back up. You can't just all of a sudden go, oh, well, it's another thousand people tournament with all these games that don't exist. They don't exist, people. They don't exist. They sold them. They don't have them. But it's only 120 people. I know. They've got to start somewhere. Do you know what's less than 120 people? Zero. And that's where we were. So the fact that Doug Polka came on Pinball Profile said, yeah, it's 120 this year. He made it very clear there might be some growth this year. Hint, hint. Yeah, sure. But the idea of setting up this year is to set up future years. And he said next year, 300 minimum. Yeah. The plans are already in place. So, hmm, that sounds pretty good. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Thank you for coming back. I'm thrilled. Yep. The same thing. I looked at it and went, okay, well, the 120 is going to now sell out within milliseconds. But they've got to start somewhere. The summary is Pinberg is back. Give it time to get back to its glory. That's all I'm going to say. And it might be quicker than you think. It might be. but guys just back off let them run a great tournament and let them grow i'm excited and uh looking forward to it that is coming up in july it's actually the week before my beast event so uh sorry honey sorry kids i'll send you photos yep yep they understand keep the bed warm for me that's all right you've been an absent father for years marty what else do you want to talk about I've only got one more thing that I wanted to talk about, and it's to do with Stern releasing LEs, right? Because obviously there was a bit of a backlash. Well, there's been quite a bit of a backlash about multiple LE editions. We've talked about it throughout the year as well. And so Stern have now come out and said, we will no longer be releasing different LEs for a game, right? so however they will be releasing multiple premium editions at their discretion it the same as limited editions just because you haven limited it doesn mean it not unique and it doesn mean that that person that thought they were getting the most special and exclusive edition has still got the most special and exclusive edition that's what i wanted to say and i saw this coming i thought to myself the only way they're going to be able to go back to the well and do like a blood red kiss edition of Elvira is to be able to do it in a premium form. I think it's the same thing. And the example I'll give is my Hobbit. So there was the limited edition, which was blah, blah, blah, old, blah, blah, blah. I had the special edition. The special edition wasn't numbered. I got a number, but it wasn't a number of a number. So I didn't know how many that sold. but it was more expensive than the LE. So I don't know whether it matters whether you've got a limited number, one of a thousand. It's how special that game is determines whether people are going to be pissed off if you do another version. I'll give you an example. ACDC Lucy. It was a premium. A lot of LE buyers were pissed off for that at the time. Are these people that buy pinball machines as a commodity? We've talked about this. No. These are people that buy games to make them feel special. My parallel. To make you feel special. You mean, come on, to make you feel special. Okay. So, right. My favorite game of all time, which, you know, obviously I sold, was my Star Trek. If they now came out with a new Star Trek and it's now got a DMD, sorry, an LCD instead of DMD, How do you think I'm going to feel about that? Excited? About my game? Well, you sold it, so... Yeah, but if I still had that... Because the parallel I'm trying to give is, if I still had that game, and now that they've vaulted it and they've improved it, but it's still only a premium, have I got the better game? I don't know. You've had it for a long time. You've had a lot of enjoyment from it. You've had opportunities to sell it between now and then, which you, in fact, have done. What are you owed? I don't get this sense of entitlement. I don't understand it. Because the entitlement is I've gone up a level to the LE. I've gone beyond the premium to the LE because I want to feel exclusive. I want to feel like I've got the most special version. So if I've got the most special version, make sure it's always the most special version is all I'm saying. So if they come out, as they did with Elvira, with the Blood Red Kiss Edition, which arguably is the best version. And it's numbered. Yeah. But those people that have now got the LE, what are they going to do? Sell their machine to now get a blood? It's not that simple. They went the LE because they thought that was the most special version that they were buying. Or I'm saying just be careful, Stern, because what you're doing is you're playing with people's emotions, not just their wallet. Well, they've heard, obviously, that people are pissed off that they keep coming back with these different Elvira editions or who knows. I see your point. Like even Stranger Things that's on the line. It's got a new projector. It's way better. I've seen it. It's fucking awesome. Is that better than the LE? Maybe. The new premium? Could be. But at the time you bought it, you bought the best of the best. I know. You can't speculate on what happens in the future. That's fine. But then don't come out in a statement saying, hey, you LE owners, we're going to protect you in future because you're going to not, we won't do any other LEs. yeah, but you'll still improve your premiums over the LE. But they won't be LEs. It doesn't matter. Have I still got the best version? They won't be LEs and they won't be numbered. Have I got the best version? You paid what you did when you bought it. You got the best version. Yes, at the time. So the payoff is do you fix it at that point in time and then move on to new titles or do you go back and add new ones? Or should they just release? Okay, you know what? Here's the new Stranger Things or here's the new Elvira. We promise it's going to be shittier than the LE we sold years ago. Come on. They're going to make it better. No. So the parallel I do is the car industry, which I don't talk to you about, but I talk to everybody else about because I love the car industry. And car makers will do exactly that. They will release a new model, but it will not have more HP, you know, power than the flagship product. It will be just slightly under. It'll have the same engine, but they detune it because it can't be more than the flagship. That's what they do. And that's what I'm saying with pinball is I'm not saying cripple it, but make sure that the LE is always, always the best model. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. Marty, you're losing me. You're losing listeners. Let's break it down. All right. When we talk about Pokemon editions, all right, there was Google. And by the way, aren't there a million different Pokemon editions? So the same thing too? Sure. Well, they're different games. Yep. Okay. Again, at the time you buy it, it's the best. We can't promise you what's going to come down the pipe later. You're buying an LE. It's numbered. You got it. There won't be any more numbers added to that. But we are going to come up with a premium, and we've changed this and this and this. And they're on the line. We don't know how many there are. So the premiums, the new ones that are coming out, they're not LEs. They're still in that sense better. But I don't know. I just, you can tell how much I really care. Zero. Oh, fucks. I know you don't. I have a lot of conversations with people about this stuff, and people get really, really pissed off about it. I wasn't. I'm not that fussed, to be honest. All I'm saying is when Stern comes out and says, hey, don't worry, we're not going to do it, and we're going to do only premiums that are going to be different, you're kind of saying the same thing. Just be careful, guys. There you go. Okay. There are rumors of titles coming out from Stern. I think Seth mentioned that you might see some vaults that might have some enhancements. Maybe something that was a DMD might have an LCD. Should they go that route? Or should they, oh, no, how dare you do Tron or Metallica or whatever the hell games they're talking about doing. Should you just, no, you know what? We'll go back to the old hardware and use DMDs. No, put an LCD in there. Change it up a little bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. put an LCD in it and modernize the rules for sure 100% oh but I bought the LE yeah I can say for sure because I don't have the LE but as a new buyer I'd be like oh fuck yeah I benefit from this so again you bought it at the time it was the best what happens in the future hey man that's the right to do we're saying the same thing we're saying the same thing we're saying the same thing I can just hear Ryan whining that's all no it's not actually him what I'm saying is. I can literally hear him whining. Don't make up this bullshit about... He's supposed to go on a hike this weekend and it got cancelled because of Carl Weathers. He is legitimately whining. I get what you're saying. All I'm saying is that if people feel like they've got the most special model, just make sure that they've always got the most special model. That's all. It's simple as that. Fine. Got it. You know, I always call you Marty. Sure. I picked that up because that's what Ryan calls you. Yes. Do other people call you Marty or is it just us assholes uh since the podcast everyone calls me marty is that bad i've never even asked you if you like that like you could i've heard mardo yes mardo was my nickname my family my partner my children they all call me marty so throughout my life it was always a an earned thing if you were in my inner circle you could call me marty but also what you remember i grew up in the 70s and Marty Robbins was in the 70s. Out in the west, this is the town of El Paso. Yeah, so which was back when I grew up in Australia in the 70s, country western music was the daggiest of daggy music. It was ridiculed. So I was ridiculed by having the same name as Marty Robbins. So I was like, right, now call me Martin. Nickname was Mardo. I didn't make that up. A friend of mine did. and then Ryan started calling me Marty. And so I just went, oh, fuck it. I'm older now. I don't care. And every once in a while, someone posts on my Facebook page, oh, Marty Robbins. Here's the album cover. I'm like... Never heard that. Yeah. 50 years old. Yep. Do you know that my friends, this is outside of pinball, so I've only been in pinball really 10 years now, but outside of that, I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been called Jeff. They call you Cupface? that uh certainly has come up once or twice you know my nickname don't you like everyone all my friends call me that no one i read it's red even though it's fucking gray but it i'll still hang on to red yeah it's red because i have seven friends named jeff oh really yeah so well and there's 17 podcasters called jeff i don't call any my friends jeff you know my friend jeff fryer is either fryer scurvy dog that's a long story i've got a friend that we call dutchie and i You wonder why would I call this person Dutchie? I'd like to relay that story here as we close out final round so you can tune out now because there is zero pinball content in the. But fuck, maybe that's what you like. Who knows? Do you ever do dares with your buddies? Like where I bet you can't do this. Keep it clean. Keep it clean. When I was probably seven years old, I did. Oh, well, we might not have matured. since then. By the way, I don't recommend any of these things. This is not an endorsement. I'm just telling you this is fodder for a podcast. You hear stories of do you know that it's impossible, physically impossible, to drink three liters of chocolate milk in 30 minutes? Your body cannot hold that in. And I'm a big boy, and I can drink a lot. I probably drink in more calories than I eat, to be honest. That's bullshit. I'll just say it's true, and when it comes time to proving that it's true, have the camera ready, have the video going. It's fucking awesome. I'll just leave it at that. That was one of the challenges, but Dutchie got the name Dutchie from one of our favorite challenges. And again, so long. See you in the next final round, but here's the story. Dutch heaven? Oh, no, no. Oh, okay. I saved those for Ann. By the way, it's summer there. It's summer there in Australia. It is so cold here in Canada. But anyway, Dutch ovens are welcome. Anyway, my friend Dutchie got the nickname because we went to a hockey game, and on the way back, we just started talking about, oh, God, I could really go for a donut right now. And that's a big thing here in Canada. Are they in Australia, donuts? Yes. Okay. And my buddy casually let it slip that I could eat a dozen. I'm like, hey, I'm a fat guy. I can't eat a dozen. He goes, oh, I could eat a dozen easily. Pull over. We find a Tim Hortons donut shop. It's 1130 at night. I said, I'm buying them. You got to eat them. We got an hour left in this car ride home. You got to eat them. Fine. Piece of cake. I ordered one of every kind possible so that each flavor was different. Again, making you probably a little more sick, which isn't smart because he's in my car. Anyway, he's eating these things. And he's had three and he's not enjoying them. It's 1130 at night. Do you know when they make donuts? first thing in the morning. So as he's eating the third one, I said, hey, take a look. They empty all the trays on the shelf and throw them in the garbage because they're now day olds. This fucking guy's got to eat a dozen day old stale donuts, all different flavor. And the last one he had to eat was this gross called a Dutchie. I don't know what's in it. Tim Hortons has brought it back and his name has been Dutchie ever since. By the way, he said he didn't shit for days. After eating a dozen donuts. Oh. Donuts. So if you have a stupid stunt you would like us to relay, please send us an email, finalroundpinballpodcast at gmail.com. Especially if it involves dialed in. What was the dialed in one? Did I miss that one? Did you listen to Head to Head? Oh, fuck yes. Oh, God. Was that a fake photo? He did look like he posed for it. That was it. That's actually it. Sorry, we should get to some emails here. Corey writes, Hi, Marty and Jeff. I enjoyed the latest episode, but maybe next time. Could you talk slightly less than 100% about pinball? We ruined it, this one. Sorry, Corey. I mean, you two have other hobbies besides pinball, right? After I finished listening, I tuned into the radio, and amazingly, Elton John's Tiny Dancer was playing. I thought Marty would appreciate that. What do you all think about the changes that are going to take place for IFPA 6.0? the pro rankings the adjustments to tiebreakers all that other kind of stuff hmm best cory 6.0 has kicked in so i was telling you about uh not being number one in canada anymore yep efficiency is kind of really the key now so that's what 6.0 is so i used to play a lot of tournaments and every now and then i'd get lucky so ifpa would keep your best at the time 20 results now it's the best 15. If I play 200 events and I get lucky and 20 of them are 15, I'm going to have a good ranking. That was the case. I admit it. Guilty as charged. Now it's about efficiency. So how do you do on all of them? So that's the big change. I think it's for the better. I think they still need to adjust the strength of schedule, Corey, and meaning take into consideration who you're playing to adjust the ratings as such. But I'm very privileged and I get to play a lot. I don't think I'm better than other people except in Australia and I think I've now moved down accordingly so I'm fine with it yeah cool great response well done, tight what else we got? excellent, okay so a lot of, again, we had I don't know, did we go through all the emails that we got saying how great we were nice one from Scott, thank you Scott W, yep, Andrew D thank you very much you're awesome Pinball Party wrote us yeah they did A plus major brownie points for circumventing pinball the entire episode correct PayPal also got in contact with us saying that they're changing their legal agreements so probably need to get onto that yeah that was a big one yeah for sure Andrew Doan wrote us that was epic epic thanks for the entertainment today while driving through Austin and Dallas you got me good happy holidays we did have a lot of fun nice mug from rick d thank you thank you so that is 77 first one of 2024 we are now holy shit about to start our fourth year of podcasting this is the fourth or fifth we started just after the pandemic we started in february 2020 so i guess technically we will have done four we will be starting five you're you're correct there yeah so technically we are seasoned veterans. Fucking right we are. We were before. We were before. Just like Mr. L1. Funny. Okay. Marty, where else can people reach us? Well, really, just message us on Facebook is actually the one that you'll get an instant response to or phono-ram-pinball at gmail.com. Everything else, we don't really bother checking. Do we? Really? No. I could care less. I'm reading another email. Sorry. No, no, that's fine. Oh, fuck, I saw another email. By the way, dear Marty, I felt the need to email about the disrespect your co-host, Jeff, is it, showed the entire community of bird lovers, whether amateur ornithologists, I don't even know how to say that. I'm sorry if I'm booting it. Whether amateur ornithologists or just people who enjoy the relaxing sounds of bird calls while listening to a podcast, or say as the relaxing sound design to the amazing new P3 game, Birdwatcher by Ian Ian Harrower, I await his apology. Ian, you get nothing. Ian Ian Harrower, friend of the show and all-round awesome person. Take it easy. We didn't talk about it. Did we talk about it? Yeah. He released a game for P3, so everybody check out Birdwatcher by Ian Ian Harrower. That was when Ryan had all those birds in the background. God, that was annoying. Although Josh O'Kirsch loves it. Anyway, there. We're done. Fuck. Can we go? Yep. Go. Fuck off, everyone. All right. Especially you, Jeff. Right back at you. See you, Marty. Bye, guys.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 332e69fb-e56a-4144-9821-9ad0479e6676*