# Episode 55 - Let's Do it LIVE! **Source:** Special When Lit **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2019-06-05 **Duration:** 60m 45s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://specialwhenlitpinballpodcast.com/episode-55-lets-do-it-live --- ## Analysis Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss pinball industry news on Special When Lit Podcast Episode 55, covering licensing challenges in boutique pinball manufacturing (particularly Spooky), personal updates on Whirlwind restoration projects, and speculation about potential future games. They note an industry-wide news drought and discuss secondary market pricing concerns. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Deep Root Pinball announced games coming between fall 2019 and 2020, but nothing has been released yet despite 2018 promises — _Ken discussing Deep Root's status updates on This Week in Pinball, expressing dismay about unfulfilled promises_ - [HIGH] Spooky Pinball has three machines currently in development, not all licensed but all horror-themed — _Dr. John's segment covering Spooky Pinball, reporting Charlie's update during licensing conversation_ - [HIGH] When a manufacturer approaches a licensor, the licensor publicizes the offer to all other pinball makers to create a bidding war — _Dr. John explaining how licensing pitches work, citing conversation with Spooky's Charlie_ - [HIGH] Jersey Jack Pinball's Pirates of the Caribbean lacks full licensing assets (no Johnny Depp likeness or clips) but has become a cult classic and commands $1,500+ premiums on secondary market — _Ken and Bill discussing Pirates as example of game succeeding despite limited licensing_ - [HIGH] Todd Tuckey (TNT Amusements YouTube channel) underwent triple bypass surgery and is in hospital recovery — _Ken announcing Todd's health status at episode opening as a shout-out request_ - [HIGH] Bill's Whirlwind restoration has been ongoing since October and is nearly complete, awaiting original Williams stickers and chrome wire form — _Bill discussing his restoration project status, mentioning chrome work being handled by Chris Royalty with 2-week turnaround_ - [MEDIUM] Multiple Whirlwind restorations completed recently (Zach Menny's via Schmitty, Bill's in progress, Orange County machine) — _Ken noting unusual confluence of three Whirlwinds being restored simultaneously_ - [HIGH] Boutique pinball companies making 150-500 units face exorbitant licensing costs that larger manufacturers like Stern can absorb — _Dr. John explaining economics of licensing for smaller manufacturers vs. Stern_ ### Notable Quotes > "the pinball news continues to just be overwhelming to the point where we don't even know what to cover" > — **Ken Cromwell**, opening > _Sets tone for episode discussing slow news cycle and lack of positive industry developments_ > "for the amount of promises that they have boldly proclaimed last year and nothing so far this year, nothing until November" > — **Bill Webb**, Deep Root discussion > _Expresses frustration with Deep Root's delays and broken promises from 2018_ > "if you approach a studio to get a license they will then make this pretty public to everybody in the pinball industry and see if anyone wants to outbid you" > — **Dr. John**, licensing segment > _Key insight into licensing procurement that creates competitive bidding wars_ > "it almost seems to me that Jersey Jack not having the full licensing rights for Pirates of the Caribbean might have been the best thing that happened to that game" > — **Ken Cromwell**, Pirates discussion > _Counterintuitive observation that licensing limitations don't necessarily harm game appeal_ > "I don't think anybody's ever had a conversation with Chuck over a spooky pinball and walked away and been like, well, that guy kind of sucks" > — **Bill Webb**, Spooky personality discussion > _Characterizes Charlie Don as relationship-builder essential to Spooky's licensing success_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Ken Cromwell | person | Co-host of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast; formerly PR/marketing at Jersey Jack Pinball, now co-owner of Flippin' Out Pinball | | Bill Webb | person | Co-host of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast; home pinball collector currently restoring Whirlwind | | Todd Tuckey | person | YouTube content creator (TNT Amusements channel) undergoing triple bypass surgery during recording period | | Dr. John | person | Spooky Pinball correspondent for Special When Lit, providing licensing analysis and Spooky updates | | Charlie Don | person | Owner/founder of Spooky Pinball, characterized as personable businessman with strong relationships in horror film industry | | Zach Minney | person | Pinball enthusiast and secondary market buyer; had Whirlwind restoration by Schmitty; owner of Flippin' Out Pinball | | Schmitty | person | Pinball restoration expert based in Evansville who specializes in Whirlwind restorations; working on Bill's machine | | Chris Royalty | person | Pinball restoration specialist providing chrome wire form services with 2-week turnaround | | Christopher Franchi | person | Renowned pinball artist; co-hosts segment on Slap Save Pinball Podcast | | Jason Fowler | person | Co-host of Slap Save Pinball Podcast who named Special When Lit as favorite pinball podcast | | Matt Kanin | person | Co-host of Slap Save Pinball Podcast | | Ryan Claytor | person | Special When Lit correspondent covering Multimorphic P3 | | Spooky Pinball | company | Boutique horror-themed pinball manufacturer with three games in development; known for licensing relationships and quality craftsmanship | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer; produced Pirates of the Caribbean with limited licensing assets | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer with significant licensing capabilities and cash flow; has produced Guardians of the Galaxy | | Deep Root Pinball | company | Manufacturer facing significant delays; announced games for fall 2019-2020 but has not delivered; made bold promises in 2018 | | This Week in Pinball | organization | Pinball news podcast that ran segment with multiple podcasters discussing industry news drought | | Special When Lit Pinball Podcast | organization | Pinball podcast hosted by Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb; based in St. Charles, Illinois; named favorite podcast by Jason Fowler | | Slap Save Pinball Podcast | organization | Pinball podcast hosted by Jason Fowler and Matt Kanin with Christopher Franchi segment | | Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle | game | Spooky Pinball game made possible through personal relationship between Charlie Don and Alice Cooper; example of licensing through personal connections | | Pirates of the Caribbean | game | Jersey Jack Pinball game lacking full licensing (no Johnny Depp, movie clips); became cult classic commanding $1,500+ premiums despite limitations | | Whirlwind | game | Classic pinball machine being restored by multiple enthusiasts; three restorations occurring simultaneously; focus of podcast segment | ### Topics - **Primary:** Pinball licensing complexity and strategy, Secondary market pricing and FOMO dynamics, Boutique manufacturer challenges (Spooky, Jersey Jack), Deep Root Pinball delays and unfulfilled promises, Whirlwind restoration projects and resale value trends - **Secondary:** Industry news drought and slow market period, Pinball podcast community and cross-promotion, Collector trading and game acquisition strategies ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.45) — Hosts express frustration with slow news cycle, Deep Root delays, and inflated secondary market pricing, but show enthusiasm for restoration projects, community connections, and discussion of game design/licensing mechanics. Notable positivity around Spooky's personable approach and Pirates' cult classic status despite licensing limitations. ### Signals - **[industry_signal]** Hosts report overwhelming lack of positive pinball news over past week, leading This Week in Pinball to run special format with multiple podcasters instead of regular news coverage (confidence: high) — Ken: 'the pinball news continues to just be overwhelming to the point where we don't even know what to cover'; This Week in Pinball ran 'potluck' format with multiple podcasters - **[business_signal]** Deep Root Pinball has not delivered any games despite 2018 promises and 2019 announcements for fall 2019-2020 release window (confidence: high) — Bill: 'for the amount of promises that they have boldly proclaimed last year and nothing so far this year, nothing until November' - **[licensing_signal]** Licensors create bidding wars by publicizing manufacturer interest to all competing pinball makers; practice common across industry (confidence: high) — Dr. John explaining: 'if you approach a studio to get a license they will then make this pretty public to everybody in the pinball industry and see if anyone wants to outbid you' - **[market_signal]** Secondary market prices for classic machines (Lethal Weapon $2,200-2,500, Indiana Jones playfield $4,000-4,800) approaching or exceeding new machine costs; aftermarket parts pricing 'ridiculous' (confidence: high) — Ken noting 'lethal weapons like $2,200, $2,500' and Bill describing aftermarket as 'nuts'; discussion of 'Wall of Shame' pricing tracker - **[collector_signal]** Pirates of the Caribbean commanding $1,500+ premiums over asking despite (or because of) limited licensing assets; game perceived as potentially never returning to production line (confidence: high) — Ken: 'people are spending what, $1,500 over asking price to get one of these things' and 'there's a very good chance that that never goes back on the line' - **[product_strategy]** Boutique manufacturers like Spooky operate in 400-500 unit production runs with pre-sales and non-refundable deposits to achieve profitability; licensing costs exorbitant at smaller scales (confidence: high) — Bill: 'the sweet spot for them has got to be 400 to 500 pins for it to make sense' and discussion of Alice Cooper pre-sales model - **[personnel_signal]** Todd Tuckey (TNT Amusements YouTube channel) underwent triple bypass surgery; in hospital recovery for several weeks with rehabilitation period to follow (confidence: high) — Ken: 'Todd went in for triple bypass surgery, and he's in the recovery mode right now. I think he's going to be in the hospital for a few weeks before he's able to go home' - **[restoration_signal]** Three Whirlwind restorations occurring simultaneously: Zach Menny's (completed by Schmitty), Bill Webb's (in progress), and Orange County machine; unusual convergence of rare title (confidence: high) — Ken noting 'Whirlwind, which is not something that you see on a regular basis, there are three' being restored currently - **[design_philosophy]** Games succeed creatively despite incomplete licensing (Pirates of the Caribbean, Big Lebowski); licensing limitations may drive innovative design rather than hinder it (confidence: medium) — Ken: 'it almost seems to me that Jersey Jack not having the full licensing rights for Pirates of the Caribbean might have been the best thing that happened to that game' - **[community_signal]** Pinball podcast ecosystem expanding with cross-promotion; Special When Lit selected as favorite podcast by Slap Save Pinball Podcast hosts; community connections driving listenership (confidence: high) — Jason Fowler named Special When Lit as favorite pinball podcast; hosts discussing 'powerful podcasting coming out of the Midwest and St. Louis' - **[manufacturing_signal]** Spooky Pinball has three machines in active development; not all licensed but all horror-themed; company positioning to continue horror focus with no end in sight (confidence: high) — Dr. John: 'Spooky Pinball has currently got three different machines in the process of being worked on. They may not all be licensed, but they are all definitely spooky' - **[collector_signal]** Multiple Whirlwind restorations may suppress resale values as market floods with nice examples; Bill predicting 6-month hold before trading for newer machines (Ghostbusters Pro, Monsters Pro) (confidence: medium) — Ken: 'The resale value on Whirlwinds with as many that are coming out is going down'; Bill suggesting Whirlwind will trade for newer games after 6 months --- ## Transcript we're going organic we're gonna do it live today who cares it's really good coming at you out of st charles illinois the special when lit pinball podcast starts now hey what's going on pinball land welcome and thanks for joining us on episode number 55 of this special when lit pinball podcast i am ken cromwell and i am bill webb and the pinball news continues to just be overwhelming to the point where we don't even know what to cover. Yeah, dude, I mean, it's kind of bleak out there, I guess you could say. Nothing good headline-wise. I mean, we could start there. Yeah, I would say nothing extremely positive has happened over the course of the last week, and that's okay, man. I mean, I'm enjoying just talking pinball with you versus covering the news the last few weeks. It's been pretty fun. Yeah, dude, it's nice to just kind of freestyle some stuff. I agree. Which we did last week, which was a good time. What's going on with you, man? What's happening? Nothing, man. Dude just got my basement kind of cleaned out for the first time in seven months. Everything's kind of all in its perspective place. Now you uploaded a picture to your Facebook, your personal Facebook page of your row, and it was received very well from friends and family and pinballers. It was. Dude, that was really refreshing to see that. Honestly, dude, last night was the first night that I had Dental Man in its final spot and Whirlwind in its final spot. and dude it just felt good to have everything finally cleaned and you know hands you know tools put away and so we're now we're gonna visit whirlwind before the end of the show with an update on the whirlwind dude everyone's thinking hearing about whirlwind there's a facebook post that i could use to prove that really yeah what's that uh i will i will show you all right we'll do it later in the show we get to that segment all right cool um other than that dude we do have to give a shout out for my mom who's not with us uh when uh thursday will be her birthday so shout out to my mom for mrs webb yeah yeah longer with us but still missed and uh here in spirit here in spirit still yelling at us from beyond knowing you i've absolutely seen what i think is her divine intervention with things that have happened with you over the course of the last year so absolutely yeah so that's that's pretty awesome so gotta send a shout out but uh absolutely move forward now with pinball no let's do another shout out real quick and uh somebody that's that's close to our hearts also todd tucky yes very much man so todd tucky of tnt amusements He was back on one of our episodes. We had an extensive interview with Todd. He's always a fun guy, and you can visit his YouTube page at TNT Amusements. Todd went in for triple bypass surgery, and he's in the recovery mode right now. I think he's going to be in the hospital for a few weeks before he's able to go home, rehab, and just kind of start from fresh with a repaired ticker, so to speak. Yep. You know what? And he's such a great guy. You started off with looking him up on YouTube. We should have really started that with who has not seen Todd Tuckey on YouTube. I think people that don't even recognize the name, they've seen a Todd Tucky TNT Amusements video. They just don't know the name Todd Tucky, perhaps. Oh, absolutely. Dude, you type in Star Trek Next Gen. Dude, there's going to be a video. I think the only video that they won't have is Elvira Scared Stiff. Yeah. That's like the only game I think they've never done a video on. It's amazing. It's amazing. So you know what? Hey, Todd, from Ken and Bill at Special and Lit, we're buddies. Get well, man, and we hope to see you out there editing videos sooner than later. and we're looking forward to your healthy and speedy recovery, man. Yeah, man, take your time and don't rush stuff because pinball ain't going anywhere. And living is good. Living is very good. Living is good, Todd. You know, I was on This Week in Pinball last week for kind of their opening segment. They did something that was pretty interesting with lack of news, and ThisWeekInPinball.com not really updating the news for the week simply because there wasn't much to go on. Zach Menny went ahead and he did kind of a conglomerate where he kind of had a, how do you call it? Podge, podge of podcasters on. Yeah, exactly. It was like a potluck of podcasters, pinball personalities, that sort of thing. So we had our segment which opened the show, and it was talking a little bit about Deep Root and where they kind of updated their status as far as games coming out anywhere between fall of this year and all the way through 2020. I didn't know if you had any comments on that at all. I kind of talked about it on This Week in Pinball. But with this being your podcast, man, I wanted to open up that door of opportunity for you to comment on it. if you feel that you'd like to. Well, our podcast, but we do have to say happy birthday to Jeff from This Week in Pinball because it was his birthday recently. Wow, it's the shout-out show. Jeff, happy birthday, man. Yeah, man, hopefully you did something good. I did send Jeff a nice text message with three exclamation marks after the happy birthday, man. I'm not important enough to have his cell phone number, so I just Facebooked it. But that's okay. I'm sure that... Just a little jab there. No, Josh. No, you know what, though? Well, honestly, going back to the deeper, but before I forgot, I wanted to mention Jeff. And I'm kind of really dismayed by what's going on there. Really? You'd really like to see something. I mean, for the amount of promises that they have boldly proclaimed last year and nothing so far this year, nothing until November. Okay. You know, it's kind of off-putting, but, you know, I really do hope that it's because of the innovation that they're putting into their games and they don't want to have issues in the first run of games, and it's because of quality control. That's why they're pushing it, and they want to come out strong instead of releasing a subpar product. So, you know, honestly, I guess it's just one of those got to wait and see. I was going to say, you can only wait and see, right? What does Steven Bowden say at Expo 2018? Get ready. Get ready. We're ready. Oh, we've been ready. Let's see it. Yeah. Let's see it. Yeah. So, you know, right now I'm just hoping that Jon Norris does another Cactus Jax 2.0 cactus jacks continued on cactus jacks continued i mean that would be a pretty good spoof right there another ccc absolutely right initials dude did he work on um class 1812 Jon Norris did he i don't know man i mean it was in that time frame i don't know keep talking bill and uh what i will do is i will pretend to be thinking about it while i'm actually hitting uh some information i like it well if you think about it though i mean think about how some of those Gottlieb titles that might not have been popular then might be a great resurgence game now, especially the 1812. You know, 1812, I think, could be a smash hit. Well, that and the fact that everything's so damn expensive. I mean, you're starting to look at obscure titles that are still affordable and try to scoop those up so that, you know, the person that's getting into the hobby or looking to add to their game collection can actually find something that is affordable. But nothing is affordable, dude. You're seeing lethal weapons like $2,200, $2,500. Yeah, well, I mean, I've been freaking out last week or two just about the pinball. aftermarket, you know, for accessories and even games and resales. It's pretty nuts, man. You know what? I think you kind of encompassed this, and I think this is a segment that we need to add to our show. It should be a wall of shame. What's a wall of shame going to be? When you ask a price for something that is so ridiculous that you're hoping that, you know, out of 99 people, you know, you just need one to say yes. You know, I mean, you kind of mentioned that Indiana Jones play field. That was new old stock restored and clear-coded. So, yeah, that was $4,000 or $4,800. I'm trying to remember what it was. Whatever. I mean, that's kind of ridiculous. It is ridiculous. I mean, I get nothing personal against these people. No, no. You have to kind of look at the market and kind of cop everything out, and it's just. And maybe he had $1,500 in the clear coat and the thing because it's absolutely glass. And, dude, it cures measles. Who knows? Who knows? But, you know, I mean, $4,000, dude. I mean, you're talking a U-Stern pro at that point for a play field. Yeah, and that's exactly where I'm going. I mean, is it worth it at that point? A little update on Class of 1812. Game design, Joe Kamikow and Ray Tanzer. Artwork, Constantino Mitchell and David Moore. Sound, Dave Zabriskie. So no Jon Norris on 1812. No, but he was at Gottlieb at that time when that all went down, though. So, you know, it was maybe not a great bet, but it was a bet nonetheless. Nonetheless. less okay um so yeah i mean honestly just yeah some of these prices are just getting so ridiculous with the especially the the aftermarket parts and you know stuff like that so you want to start like a wall of shame segment or do you want to just update a wall of shame because what i'm envisioning right now it's like the you know like the madden bus like whoever was like the madden player of the game gets on the end the monday night football bus um and they just travel the country with their mug on the bus you know that's that just drives around do we get a whiteboard with 10 top spots hey and And every time we see something that is just so ghastly overpriced, we put it on the board for the wall of shame. Like how about power rankings? And you know what, though? Honestly, I could see that wall of shame being adjusted over time because maybe the price of Gilligan's Islands do go up because somebody was hoarding 1,500 of them. And that warehouse burned to the ground and there's only 200 left. But another horrible deal could come in and overtake the original horrible deal, number one spot. So it could be like a pinball power rankings of horrible, horrible deals. Yeah, of just... That could be updated on a weekly basis. How can you sleep asking that much money for it? Yeah. So that said, I do want to go for the number one spot, asking $10,000 for Whirlwind. I don't think that would be number one, man. I mean, I don't think so. But I'm looking now. There's a couple Whirlwinds that are out there, right? So you've got your Whirlwind that you're getting ready to rock and roll in. Let's just roll into Whirlwind here, because we've been talking about Whirlwind for... It's like the week of Whirlwinds in all honesty. A long time. You've got Schmitty, who went ahead and completed Zach Menny's Whirlwind restoration. Yours is like a new rebuilt Whirlwind, and then is it Orange County, I heard, has another Whirlwind that they are finishing or they have done. So it's interesting that Whirlwind, which is not something that you see on a regular basis, there are three. Now, I don't know anything about the Orange County Whirlwind. I don't know if that's just a nice one, if it's a restoration, if it's a blinged-out Whirlwind. Do you know anything about that one? I haven't been able to. I didn't have enough time to really research and figure out what was going on with it. I saw pictures of it. I mean, it looks nice. um but that you know i don't know if it's for sale or what you know the deal is if it was just a restoration project that's going to be an in-house thing or yep um but yeah i mean honestly i mean that's two and a half whirlwinds that have been restored in the last two weeks basically well over the last i mean when did you start yours october october okay yeah october november december january february march april and full disclosure mine won't be done until i have the William Stickers, which got to send a shout out to my boy Schmitty down in Evansville. He's going to help a brother out because he's got something lined up for me. Is he going to send you the Restored by Schmitty decal to put on the lockdown bar? You know, I should ask him for that. I think that would be a good... He should get credit for all the whirlwinds. It only makes sense. This is the test to see if he listens. So if he sends that sticker with, then we know he listens to the podcast. It doesn't matter if he listens because Zach will jab him about it anyway. We'll see what happens there. We'll see what happens. Zach, don't say anything, man. So yeah, full disclosure. I got a lot done over it over the weekend, pretty much a lot of the final touches. So now I'm just waiting on the original Williams stickers, the pin stadiums that I have to put in, which I'm not going to put in. That's the last thing I'm going to put in. And I'm waiting on a chrome wire form from Chris Royalty. So, yeah, pinball, playing in more. Correct. OK, I still have the original. So it plays now, which is nice. But I mean, that's when did you send your wire format? How long does it take to get that chromed? He had to get another one chromed for me. So it's going to be a couple weeks. Two weeks? Two weeks. Hey, sounds legitimate to me. So the resale value on Whirlwinds with as many that are coming out is going down. Oh, no. It's flooded with nicely restored Whirlwinds. Everything's trending down in Whirlwind restorations. Well, we'll see, dude, because I know Zach's not selling his. I honestly don't know what I'm going to do with mine. I think you're going to sell yours, man. I think so, too, but we've got to give it six months. I think you're going to trade it for something that might be potentially new in box or new out of box, something a little more current. That's where I'm predicting for you. Because I know you've got a Ghostbusters Pro that you've had your eyes on and you've been thinking about putting in the lineup. What else have you been looking for? Or something that's been really interesting to you? Ghostbusters Pro, Monsters Pro. Monsters Pro, yeah. If anyone has both of those games and is looking for the cleanest-ish Whirlwind. um we'll trade with some cash maybe yeah okay no we'll see man uh there's uh possibilities there so but anyways so i mean i think that's about it on whirlwind i don't uh i'm draining the segment now because now it's uh we're gonna be wow we're draining the segment we are draining the segment now because now whirlwind is done enough when the final couple pieces are on then we'll update until then it's in the row it's playing um when it's finally done we'll update with some pictures but until then we're not doing anything. You might have a little special reveal media that you'll be releasing, I heard, too. Maybe. All right. We'll just see. We'll wait and see. I do want to continue with some housekeeping before we get into, first of all, Jason Fowler and Matt Kanin at Slap Save Pinball Podcast, they had recently done their favorites list, and it was favorite machines. And there was a topic or a category of favorite podcasts, and Jason Fowler had selected the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast as his favorite pinball podcast. So I wanted to say, one, Jason, thanks, man. That was – Absolutely. It wasn't expected, man. Yeah, and I appreciate that. For somebody that's gotten into podcasting and has kind of jumped in full and has absolutely awakened everybody and know that there's some powerful podcasting coming out of the Midwest and St. Louis, it was nice that you listened to us, man, and that you gave us the shout-out. And we wanted to return the favor and give you that shout-out, too. Anybody that hasn't listened to Slap Safe Pinball Podcast with Matt Kanin and Jason Fowler with a side segment podcast within a podcast, Christopher Franchi, renowned pinball artist. Go ahead and give them a listen and let them know, especially when Lit sent you. Absolutely, man. Yeah, definitely give them a listen. They're definitely good friends of ours. And, you know, it's hard to describe when we get all these people together that we know that do podcasting. Those are just some of the most epic nights that we've had. And we are going to have another epic night here. We have another one coming up, right? So Friday, let's talk about that later in the show because I want to close out with that. But I'm so excited about Friday. And the cool thing is it's not just something that we're going to be able to experience ourselves because people that have accessibility to get into, like, streaming or have access to Twitch are going to see what I think will be a pretty epic night for Twitch streaming on pinball. Definitely looking forward to it. So we'll leave that for a cliffhanger towards the end. A little cliffhanger towards the end. And if you're not into Twitch, you can turn us off early at that point. We'll let you know. We'll give you a little warning. Yeah. So no big deal. Now, last week, we were not able to get to Dr. John and Ryan Claytor's segments. Dr. John, he covers spooky pinball for us on a weekly basis. He's a special one lit correspondent. Our second correspondent is Ryan Claytor, and he's actually covering. And Ryan Cleter is covering Multimorphic P3 So before we go ahead and we kind of go further into the episode for a little train it or save it and some updates let first let hear from Dr John Hi Dr John with this week's spooky update. I was listening to this week in pinball and reading on pin side the evil dead spooky pinball thread where Charlie mentioned how hard it was to get licenses for themes. I had to chat to him about this and learned some things about getting licenses. Number one is if you approach a studio to get a license they will then make this pretty public to everybody in the pinball industry and see if anyone wants to outbid you. Such a pleasant business practice. Then you have to find out how many of the assets the studio actually owns. If you want to use a particular actor's license they may not own that and you have to approach the actor and pay for this separately. Then there's the music, then there's the images from the movie, then there's other actors then there's lines and live video clips each one of these things costs money so if you're a boutique company and you're planning on making anywhere from 150 to 500 machines suddenly licensing costs get exorbitant if you can get the assets at all we also had a chat about a comment that perhaps spooky may one day run out of ideas in the spooky lineup and have to do non-horror themed pins. Charlie laughed at this because him and his family are such horror buffs and they know everything about spooky films. They have no doubt they will continue finding great themes in the future. As a matter of fact, Spooky Pinball has currently got three different machines in the process of being worked on. They may not all be licensed, but they are all definitely spooky. Thanks for listening and catch you next week. So thank you, Dr. John, for covering spooky pinball for us. It's interesting. He's covering the just super intricate subject of pinball licensing. Yeah, he's digging deep in this, man. No, and I like his approach on this because pinball licensing has always kind of fascinated me, and it's always been a pretty captivating conversation because depending on the assets, the lack thereof, it can really kind of sway customers' ability to enjoy a game or support a game. And the way that he explains it, first, I mean, so a company comes in and they get a license or they're looking for a license. So let's say if I want to get, you know, let's say Christopher Franchi, he likes Frankenberry cereal, right? So he's like he wants to do a Frankenberry pin. And he goes and he tries to get the license for Frankenberry. And they're like, yeah, cool. All right. Well, this is kind of what we're thinking. We'll get back to you. Well, then they're telling all the other pinball manufacturers, hey, this guy, he wants a Frankenberry pinball machine. And he's willing to pay X amount of dollars for this license. Right. So what's it worth to you guys? So they create their own bidding war on the license, which is interesting and it's unfortunate. You would hope that there's some exclusivity and some professional courtesy on keeping something on the lowdown. And now I can kind of see where maybe it's not because a pinball company is trying to steal a license from another company, but that license is presented to them and they're saying somebody else is going to grab this if you don't want it. So it's like a sales pitch to a company. And that was very interesting that he said that because I always just assumed that maybe it's just cutthroat. Let's say company A, here's a company B, has a license in the works. So they're going to go snick that license out from company B for either one to have a competitive edge or to send a message. But maybe it's just the licensor saying, hey, company B is approaching us on this. Do you want a shot at it? Well, yeah, I guess so. I mean, let's see if it makes sense dollar-wise. I mean, that's where I kind of took that as far as something that I didn't even think about. You know what, man? It just seems like it's such a dirty kind of thing. It is dirty. You know. Dirty deeds. So I really hate to do this, but I'm going to have to jump back in on this, but go JJP with Pirates of the Caribbean, how they don't have Johnny Depp's likeness in that movie, or from the movie in that movie. Or any of the clips, right? Or any of the clips. Right. I mean, dude, the craziest part is if you would have said six months ago that Pirates was going to be a hard game to find and, you know, you wouldn't believe it. You'd be like, dude, it doesn't have any of this material from the movie. And now people are spending, what, $1,500 over asking price to get one of these things? Well, it's because of the limited nature of the pinball machine. And there's a very good chance, man, that that never goes back on the line. I don't know what happens. But it almost seems to me, and we'll get back to Spooky here in a second, that Jersey Jack not having the full licensing rights for Pies of the Caribbean might have been the best thing that happened to that game. because how many people really need to have all the licensing for Pirates of the Caribbean? As something that's more of a pirate-themed pinball machine, with the exception of choosing all those characters in the beginning that are absolutely tied to the movie, it is just a fun pinball machine. It's one that I underestimated, and it's one that I enjoyed it when I played it. It didn't sink into me until I recently played it that there's a lot more going on with this game than I had given it credit for, and it had nothing to do about lack of assets. because guess what? It didn't matter. I haven't seen a Pirates of the Caribbean in 10 or 15 years. So for me to not know that something's missing, couldn't care less. So let me throw you this thought here. Hold on, hold on. I'm going to catch it. All right. Perfect. Good catch. Thank you. Just a bit outside. Tried the corner and missed. In the case of Pirates, you don't have the assets, but now it seems like this game is like a cult classic. And because of its limited nature, now people are kind of fawning over it. when six months ago people were bashing the snot out of this thing. It's because it's limited, man, and it's a badass game. And it's a game that might not ever go back on the line. I get it. I'm not saying it's not, but just because it doesn't have all the assets doesn't mean that it can't be a great game. Right. And that's not to say that Charlie and Spooky don't get some of these licenses and just kind of take the overall premise of the theme and turn it into something that's another cult classic like that. I mean, here, Big Lebowski. They didn't have all the movie clips and stuff like that. Yeah, but that didn't even go anywhere. It didn't, but, dude, that's a wicked game, dude. I'd love to own one. They ran out of their license probably. Well, they ran out of money, too. But going back to Spooky, right? So now we're talking about you've got to get the license. You've got to outfit all the other manufacturers in which that license is being pitched. Now, just when you think you've got it good, no, because now you've got to get the licensing rights for any characters that might be in that game that you want to go ahead and put into your game. And now after you get that figured out, you've got to figure out the licensing rights for the music. You've got to figure out the licensing rights for the clips. So when people get upset that maybe there are companies that aren't doing a great job. Executing it to the fullest potential. Exactly. There's so much more into it. Now, a powerhouse like Stern Pinball has that backing, and they've got that cash flow, and they've got those pins that are being made, and they can count on that. And it makes sense for them to be able to get. But even look at Stern. But they have the resources for that. But, I mean, there was a big complaint. People were disappointed in some of the licensing that had happened with Guardians of the Galaxy. I mean, so even with Stern, it's maybe not because they weren't willing to pay for it, but maybe it was just so out of touch that it didn't make sense for them to do it. Yeah. I don't know. But a smaller company like Spooky, right? So you've got a boutique company. It's such an uphill battle for these guys. When they get Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle, I think it's because they have a close personal relationship with Alice Cooper. Yeah. And Alice Cooper. Well, they go to the Cheesecake Factory with them. Number one, that's awesome. Right. They're eating cheese too. You know, I mean, you can't. But Alice Cooper's not like, hey, Jersey Jack, my buddies at Spooky, they want to do a pinball machine with you. Well, it's a loyalty thing there. I think so. And I think where Charlie is an interesting person for me that owns a pinball company is that he's got the ability to form relationships and he's personable, right? Oh, yeah. Now, as a businessman, I'm sure he's as tenacious when he needs to be as anybody else. But as somebody that's able to – I don't think anybody's ever had a conversation with Chuck over a spooky pinball and walked away and been like, well, that guy kind of sucks. I mean, he just – that's not his demeanor. Genuinely nice guy. Dude, I would almost love to see them do a 100-run pinball machine of – what would be a – dude, Herman and the Munsters or something. Whoa. Something. Really? That was what you came up with? Dude, I have ideas in my head. Munsters on your mind there, Bill? A little Munsters Pro you're looking to snag? How about like a B or C movie like A Killer Clowns from Outer Space? Something, dude. Some 80s title. The Blob. You know, just something. Dude, Flashdance, dude. Something, man. Oh, I don't know. I don't know if that fits. Just being a smartass. Well, you're 0 for 2. You got Herman and the Munsters and Flashdance. Give me a good one. Come on. Weekend at Bernie's. Dude, you know Andrew McCarthy is broke, number one. It just doesn't fit. His license is $10, man, to get his approval, right? I think, dude, if you could get those three actors and you could nail down some of the movie clips because it's old enough. Yeah. And you made like 75 or 100 machines. A Weekend at Bernie's. Yeah, dude, you have the pop bumpers strung out like the. Well, you're the best, bro. Like the. I love it. The buoys. Because you've thought about this. No, I haven't. You're not shooting from the cuff. Just right now? Yeah. You're concocting the Weekend at Bernie's pin. Well, dude, think about it. I love this. So your loop, dude, comes around and goes to the pop bumpers that are lined up. I am thinking about it. And, you know, where you hear the channel markers going off. Oh. Dude, some one-liners like that. But, dude, you made a limited run of that. Yeah. Dude, I could see you asking $12,000 for the prices that people are paying on this stuff. Dude, I'd ask $15,000. But how limited, right? Weekend at Bernie's. 50 pins. But it doesn't make sense for them to do 50 pins. They're not going to make money. You have to buy the parts and volume, right? So I think the sweet spot for them has got to be 400 to 500 pins for it to make sense. And that's why they offer the pre-sales with the non-refundable deposits. At least that's what they did with Alice Cooper. But, dude, what was John Papadiuk charging for the Magic Girls? Yeah, well, I mean, that ship has sailed, right? It has sailed. Right. But, dude, a $20,000 limited pin is not out of the question these days. No, it's not. By far, it's not. I think if you're going to ask $20,000 for a super-duper awesome pinball machine, it's going to have to be of the utmost highest quality of parts and everything. And I just, as it pertains to Spooky, I don't think that's where they're going. And I think it's the quirky pinball machines where they know that there's a cult following for a theme of at least 500 pins. In all honesty, not to open up sore wounds, and we're going to go over to Multimorphic here in a second with our correspondent, Ryan Claytor. I think Ben Heck's idea of Evil Dead is very interesting to me. And if that ever comes to fruition, whether it's Spooky that may or may not have tried to get that license, and if that works, I think that's great. And if Ben takes his idea and it's assuming Spooky has the licensing rights or his design rights because he was under retainer when that was actually done, if they can figure out a way to come up with an evil dead pin, that's an easy 500 games, I think. Yeah, dude, I mean, here, let's even just dig a little deeper, okay? A lot of people, when Alice Cooper was announced because it was released, you know, announced a year earlier than they had planned for production, right? Kind of the faux pas in the business right now, but whatever. Again, just learning, right? Dude, it lost traction, and now the hype train that seems like it's kicking back up for that game, dude. Well, because they're shipping, right? And then people that just felt like, man, they haven't started shipping, and I'm number 440 on the list. I'll sell my spot for $200. Right, because you're chasing the next thing that's coming out, right? Everybody wants to be part of the latest. Like, you want to be the first guy on your block to have the Alice Cooper. You don't want to get your Alice Cooper after it was 18 months to 24 months announced, and there's already been like eight pins that have come out. But you're talking about cost of being cool, right? Right. Literally, that's exactly what we're talking about. It is, and it's the exclusivity, right? Like you're paying to get that thing first. You want that. So tell me that being exclusive and having said theme of Weekend at Bernie's or some 80s whatever. No, I understand what you're saying. I'm that guy too, right? And I think I talked about it. If you release or you announce a pin or if I put pre-order money down or if I'm ordering a game, If I'm not feeling like it's coming within like three months, 90 days, I think I lose interest and I'm ready to move on to something else. See, but that's a lie though. Because something else – I'm ready to move on to something else because something else is already on the pipeline. The only – That's true, but that's a lie though because, dude, if it was an absolute dream thing that you loved, you wouldn't care what it was. A dream thing for me would be Stranger Things, right? Okay. So let's say Stranger Things was in the pipeline. Charlie does Stranger Things. A limited run of 50. Right. Okay. I mean, I don't think you'd be in at $15,000. But. No, I couldn't. Yeah. Okay. There's not a pinball machine in the existence that's worth $15,000 to me. I mean. At Adams, that's gold-plated. Nope. Well, whatever. I mean, literally, there's nothing. I get it, but. It's $15,000. I do. Maybe Gilligan's Island. With the current market price, absolutely. Right. Yeah. Because it's local. And it's made out of SS Minnow wood from the boat. Yeah. Exactly. So, didn't wallow. Wallow sheep. Wallow sheep. Sorry for the shameless plug there. I'm enjoying this banter, by the way, Bill. So am I. And thank you, Dr. John, for sparking the conversation. You know what? I'm rude, dude. I didn't say thank you. Dr. John, thank you very much, man. Oh, you're not rude, man. We're talking about his subject. We thank him at the end. Okay. Well, that was a preemptive thank you. Okay. So you have that theme or some theme like that. Here, Stranger Things. Dude, there's enough crazy people in this hobby that will just throw money. Right. Throw money. Dude, money first, think second. And that seems to be like the biggest trend in pinball, dude. The newest, hottest, latest thing, dude. Everyone's got to gobble it up. Yeah. You know. Now, Stranger Things, like that to me seems like a license that would be difficult to attain. It could be very easily shopped around. You know what I mean? So that's the other thing. Like if Spooky's like, oh, we're going to do Stranger Things. There might be other companies that can also afford to do Stranger Things. And with Stranger Things being hot, I mean, they've got a season coming up. would it have been viable for them to try to retain that, assuming that they had it or they wanted it? And that's where the licensing world is just, it's vicious, man. It's cutthroat. So if you're not part of the high rollers, you can't be a bottom feeder either. So you have to be ingenuitive. You have to come up with themes that are going to make sense. And this is where I think Spooky is perfect with them going after that niche market of just kind of niche themes. They're going to sell 500 of them every single time. And when Spooky and everybody over there, Chuck and KT and Bug and everyone says, you know what, we're ready to expand. We're going to start making, let's go to 650 pins. Let's go to Scott Danesi's next game is going to be coming out through Spooky. Now, Scott, when TNA was released, it was a huge hit at the time. It was their biggest selling pin for Spooky Pinball, right? So Scott got some stuff that he needs to kind of live up to a reputation and if they sold 550 TNAs are they going to try to sell 600 or 650 of Scott next game I would assume that they're going to know they're going to sell 500. You know what, though? At that point, I would stick to the 500, man, maybe bump the price up a little bit. That's where I think I'm going to. But with a price bump, there needs to be something to justify the price bump, not just because you need to put a little bit more on the bone. I mean, you will end up doing that, but you're going to have to do something different to justify the price. Absolutely. But here's the thing, though. If you go by history, every time they do a game, each one seems to progressively getting better with layout, artwork, theme, things that really pull you in more. So in my eyes, to me, I'm not as concerned about that just because that reason that they always seem to up the bar on what they're bringing to the table. I want to own a spooky game. I've yet to own one. I've never had one in my possession where it came down to the basement. And when you think about the games, it was America's Most Haunted, right, was number one. Rob Zombie, Spook Show. Rob Zombie was number two. And then was it TNA was number three. Now we have Alice Cooper, number four. Now, two of those four pins interest me a lot, and the first one is TNA because I've played TNA, and it's a great pin just for whatever reason. I have not owned a TNA, and I would like to own a TNA because the experience, the shots, it's different. I love it. Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle also appeals to me. That being said, I don't have a lot of time on Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle. No, but I can see you or I at some point getting one. Getting an Alice Cooper? Yeah. Or maybe Steve Beatty because our buddy Steve Beatty, he was interested in a local Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle. So we'll see what happens. In any event, pinball licensing is crazy. And then at the end, Dr. John kind of teased a little bit where Spooky's working with three horror-themed themes that are in the pipeline. So I'm not sure if Weekend at Bernie's is one of those. Maybe that's Scott's next game. I'm just kidding. Weekend at Denise's. I really don't know. Actually, that sounds kind of cool. Because if he puts the sunglasses on, he kind of could slump down like a Bernie. Absolutely. Weekend at Denise's, man. Weekend at Denise's. Throw some electro punk music in there. We've experienced a weekend at Denise's. So, yeah. Or at least a weeknight at Denise's. A weeknight. That was a good night. Right, right. I've been on a couple. Yeah, we've had some time at Scott's house. That's a good time. So Scott and Sarah Rose, a little shout out, too. It's a shout out episode on Special One Lit. We're going to keep doing shout outs. All right. So let's go to our second correspondent. And this guy just came on board, right? Ryan Claytor. Everybody knows Ryan Claytor. He's been in pinball forever. And this is his second offering for Special Winlet Pinball Podcast. He is covering Multimorphic P3. And last week he covered a little bit with Gerry Stellenberg. And let's see what he's got for us this week. Hey, Special Winlet. This is Ryan Claytor again, your Multimorphic correspondent. So a couple months back, there was this really great pinball news article about the new Multimorphic factory in Round Rock, Texas, which is a suburb of Austin. I wanted to touch base with Jerry about how that new factory is treating them. And in the past couple months, they've increased their build volumes, and there have also been some other changes at the factory. When I chat with Jerry, he had this to say. We've structured the floor a little differently than we started out. Essentially, we've broken the floor into individual build stations for each of the major sub-assemblies in the P3 platform. As I mentioned last show, the P3 is built on a modular system. Those with a passing familiarity might know the back third of the playfield as a modular section, but the modularity continues far past the playfield. Each one of the 13 different sub-assemblies Jerry mentioned, like their wall and scoop mech or their infinity ball trough or the flipper assembly or any number of different components are modular sub-assemblies that can be built and tested independently of one another. And then, as Jerry concludes, And then they all work their way towards the final assembly area where machines are packaged together. So essentially, in addition to developing games, Multimorphic is also focusing on streamlining their build process by training various sub-assembly experts, workers specifically trained to build one or two different sub-assemblies at these newly designed Multimorphic factory stations. All right, that's going to do it for this segment. We'll see you next week when we talk about where you might be able to get your hands on a P3 to play it. Until then, stay innovative. going on here in factory type form there are people that are manufacturing and doing sub assemblies you know experts that he's trained so it's not just one it's not a one-man show over there no it sounds like dude you got groups of people all coming together you know for one product at the end which just you know like eight lines coming together for one specific product at the end with how it sounds like he was talking about it so it sounds really good man well it sounds like he's got manufacturing under control right oh yeah well dude they're so they are very diversified in what they're doing too not very but they are diversified with you know selling the board sets and the right the p-rock boards or p3 yeah because i mean those boards are in a lot of different company games they're in american pinball they're in i think spooky yep now whether or not that they those companies chose or choose down the road to go with like a proprietary board or go with something else it's fine but you can absolutely assume that the boards that they're selling for the other companies are helping to fund the multi-morphic platform right oh yeah yeah I mean, so that makes sense. So it's not a cash flow problem. Right. And you know what? We can't be critical of that because it's making sense. The thing that we're most concerned about with new companies, and we just take Deep Root, for example, or Suncoast Pinball or Great Lakes Pinball, you've got these ideas and you've got maybe working prototype pins. The concern is can you get the manufacturing down to where you can get pins out on a regular basis and sell? It sounds like Jerry has that figured out. he might not have the demand that he wants right now but i know that this is not a guy that is going to shy away from seeing his dream all the way through and it seems to me like he's all in regardless the dedication that he has to pull this off is definitely what seems to be pulling this all together and honestly with the amount of games that i'm hoping to see come out of them i could see this really lasting the long haul you know i mean i don't see them going under i mean Because of the diversification that they have, they have many avenues that they could pursue with what they're doing. As long as the board sets are there for the demand. I think what P3 needs is, instead of a bunch of games coming out, they need one solid game. That's going to be the face of Multimorphic. The face of that platform. Where it's like, if you think of Multimorphic, you think of this game title. And is it Cosmic Kart Racing? I don't know, maybe not. Jerry's T's something that's going to be released around. Well, it'll be released when it's released and it's something that's going to be new and innovative and it's going to be one of the most complex or, you know, advanced mechs and pinball in the history of pinball. So, I mean, that kind of stuff. I like to hear it, but I want to see it delivered. I want to see Multimorphic do well. So, again, I'm so happy that we've got Ryan Claytor that's willing to take the time to discuss happenings at Multimorphic because I think it ultimately absolutely deserves to have an outlet. The way that Ryan had assembled that whole segment was spot on. It was great, too. So love the segment. Yeah. I mean, so Dr. John and Ryan are doing a great job. What we would encourage anybody that wants to take on a manufacturer is, hey, give us a call or a message. Let us get you on board here because it's fun. I like hearing people cover the news, and I like us being able to discuss the news. And right now, we'll see. Again, we always have to say we'll see. Multimorphic is appealing to me. I think it's a fun platform. I just think that it's missing something. And, again, I think it's that one title that makes everybody go, whoa, this is awesome. And until that happens, you know, it might be a little bit of an uphill battle. Dude, they come out with E.T., and I think that would – E.T.? Yeah, extraterrestrial. I know what it is, man. Okay. How'd that work for the Atari 2600? E.T. phone home. Well, that's a whole other history story about them being in a landfill, which we won't go into. Well, I don't want to see Multimorphics in a landfill after an E.T. release. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But in any event, yeah, go ahead. For a while, those games were worth some serious money. Yeah, I believe it, man. I believe it. And Multimorphic is not a cheap game either. It is not. So you're looking at $10,000 to get into Multimorphic with the ability to kind of swap your games out for a couple grand. So I kind of like that, too. If it's something that's going to complement your pinball collection or if you're only going to have one pin, you're probably not going to have multiple Multimorphic pins set up where you've got to line up a four of them, unless you want to link them head-to-head. But if you're going to try to link head-to-head within the home, that's expensive. But if there's online play that's being introduced, that's where it's pretty cool. Online play is huge. I think Multimorphic is on the verge of doing things in pinball, and they've already shown they've done things in pinball that haven't been done. At this point, they just need the notoriety. They need the association of having a killer game, whether it's licensed or not, something that's fun, that really puts them on the map. And then I think you see a potential surge in sales. So we'll see. And you know what? I hope that they take advantage of all type of marketing that they can. You know, get these games out, get them streamed on Twitch, you know, get them on location. I know Jerry, he brings these to shows or he's got vendors that bring him to shows. You've got to keep the word out because instead of it dying as far as people knowing what's going on and recognition, I think you need to try to increase. And I don't know what his plans are or what he's done in the past, but I think the exposure is a big part of it. A lot of people that I know that are in a pinball, when I bring up, what do you think, a multimorphic P3, they don't know what I'm talking about. And I think the exposure will come, but you've got to figure out something that's going to be creative to let people know that, hey, there is another option that some consider to be an advanced on typical pinball, a different spin on pinball, but it absolutely still is pinball. So I think that's another thing that has to be kind of considered. Well, I think you and I can both agree that Jerry's not going away. No, he's not. I don't want him to. Oh, no, no, absolutely not, dude. I mean, dude, he's in it for the long haul. So looking forward to see what the rest of it brings. It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com, offering you custom quality playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit Lermods.com today. So for those of you new to the segment, Drain It or Save It is pretty simple. We bring up three topics. We discuss if we like the topic and agree with it, or if we don't like the topic and we disagree with it. Hence the Drain It or Save It replies that we have within the segment. The first thing that we're going to have today for discussion is the use of the word unobtainium. And unobtainium in general has been a controversial subject as far as the definition of the actual word. I think it means something that has disappeared to the point where you can never get it again for the most part or currently cannot get it. Do you like the use of the word unobtainium, Bill? Drain it or save it? I'm going to have to drain that. I've heard it just too much lately. And people that don't know what they're really talking about using it. you know just what's what's your definition of unobtainium um a word that shouldn't be used that's my my actual definition all right when you look up a word that shouldn't be used in the dictionary no it's just so it's just very overused right now you know okay indiana jones playfields and stuff like that yes they're very rare and hard to come by i would prefer those words okay so but you don't like the use of the word unobtainium yeah or the space balls quote you ain't found. So, okay. So you're draining it? I am draining that. Okay. I'm going to drain unobtainium, too. At this point, it's gotten too much, it's too confusing for me to figure out what unobtainium actually is. I just assume that it's something that is ridiculously rare, and at the time you're speaking of it, it's not available. But the argument is, if it ever became available, it shouldn't have been unobtainium in the first place. It confuses me. It makes me want to have a couple drinks. So I'm going to drain unobtainium, and I think it should be changed to not currently available. Yeah. Unless we're talking about an endangered species that is no longer endangered because it's not here anymore. Right. Unobtainium. You're never going to get the purple toucan, whatever. Well, when I was growing up and I would go to Brookfield Zoo in Chicago, I would see the American bald eagle, and that was a vanishing animal. So that was going to be unobtainium in a matter of years. There were no more. I remember that was like 10 or 20 years. Right. Now guess what? And now we're flying around our neighbors. I'm going to say, Charles, the things are in my yard, and they're scraping up rabbits. It's like, oh, snap. American spirit. Talk about your all-time backfire. Kick them out of the little guy. Right, right. Not unobtainium anymore. They're kicking some serious titanium, but they're here to stay. So unobtainium, if repopped or reproduced, no pun intended with the eagles, doesn't necessarily mean unobtainium. So we're going to drain unobtainium. How's that? I like it. All right. Second one on the docket for drain it or save it, pinball licensing. So we just talked about this. What do you think about this? Drain it or save it, Bill? I'm going to feel... Hold on. Let me set it up here. No, no. All right. A licensor, which is somebody that holds a license, not keeping a confidential negotiation with a license and then sharing that potential license with other pinball companies. That practice of not having that one-on-one, do you drain it or save it? I feel evil today because everything's kind of been negative, but I'm going to have to drain this as well, man. I don't like that. That's not a great way of doing business. That's like turning your back. Or is it a great way of doing business? For the licensor. For the licensor, business, yeah. But, you know, I don't know. If that's the way that it really is, I don't like that. But, I mean, everyone's got to do what they've got to do to survive. But I know when I make a promise to sell a machine for a certain price, whatever. So you're going to drain it. I'm going to drain it. I'm going to drain it, too. And I think this is the reason. It's because there are some themes that I think would lend themselves better to some manufacturers. Right? And if some of the other smaller manufacturers that may have a little bit more passion on a project aren't able to go ahead and try to get a license because they were outbid by the licensor sharing that information to another manufacturer, I think that's pretty unfortunate. So I'm going to drain that. That being said I can completely understand from a business standpoint Business is business We not all friends at the end of the day I would assume in manufacturing and all that kind of stuff But from the selfish side of me that wants to see these themes matched up with these manufacturers, I'd like to probably drain it. You know what? Honestly, and that's the thing, is we're sitting on a great side of the table that we don't have to worry about paying people's paychecks with licenses and stuff like that. And nobody has to worry about paying our paychecks either. Exactly. There we go. We ain't found one yet. No, and I've been looking for one. Where are the checks? Weekend of Bernie's. I got told two weeks, man. Your check's coming in two weeks? I got told two weeks. Right, that's good. At least you got a deadline. I have no deadline. That was like 26 weeks ago. That's okay, man. 13 times sitting at the mailbox. You know what my payday is, man? It's being able to sit down here and talk pinball once a week and stream some pinball a couple times a week. That's my paycheck right now. Absolutely. Until my cheese gets moved here, I'm almost content. Almost. Almost. Almost. Yeah, but if you're not, if you are content, that means we're not setting the bar higher and higher. And we got some plans that might be shocking and awing here as we get into the third and fourth quarter of the year. So we'll see how that goes. But for the third category of drain it or save it, and I think this will be something that you can probably appreciate, Bill, because you might know a little bit about it. Whirlwind restorations. taking a whirlwind that uh might not be the best example and uh making it the best whirlwind on the planet or the best whirlwind uh west of the mississippi are you draining or saving the restoration of whirlwinds right now all right so for the amount of hours i have in the mind i'm draining because i'm just kind of sick of staring at the game um my heart goes out to schmitty uh We were talking. He's on his second restoration right now of a whirlwind. Another whirlwind? He had three that he was going to do. Dude, he's got a picture with them all lined up. Okay. I'll have to find that and show you because it's a great post. All right. But, yeah, I'm done with it now. So you're draining the whirlwind restoration. I don't want to look at one right now. It's in the row, dude. It's all the way at the end, so I don't have to look at it when I come downstairs. All right. I'm going to save the whirlwind restorations for now because I want to see yours when it's all done. And then probably right after that, I will drain it. Because we've been on the adventure of Whirlwind for a long time. I've felt some of your pains and some of your struggles. But I am here to see the finish line of the Whirlwind. Yeah, dude. Now it's time to move on to, like, Valley Gilligan's Island something, man. Oh, well, that's a popular title lately. Yeah. Well, you've got it. Okay. All right, well, good. So to recap our Drain It or Save It segments, we had first, we had the use of the word unobtainium. We're both draining unobtainium. So the word itself at this point should be unobtainium. Should not be able to use the word anymore. And we're not talking about a David Guetta song. No. Titanium. No. We're talking about the word. Second category or second question was pinball licensors shopping around licensed themes to all the other pinball manufacturers. We're draining it. We think it's unfortunate. Potentially kind of sucks. It does. But not that we – I don't judge a manufacturer for that because at the end of the day, they've got to turn a profit. I don't judge the manufacturer. It's the licensor in that business practice I'm draining. Right. They're just trying to get the most out of the assets that they have. So we both drain that. And then lastly, whirlwind restorations. Bill's pretty much fed up with his. He's ready to sell it real cheap or trade it for Gilgan's Island. And I am saving it because I want to see the pinball machine all the way through after I've gone through the saga with Bill for the last several months. You missed Indiana Jones several months? You mean seven months? Several, seven, whatever it takes. Yeah. Or an Indiana Jones playfield restored with slight touch-ups. Right. A little cash. Yeah. A little cash. So drain it or save it again. Thank you, LearnMods.com, for sponsoring this segment. It's always fun to talk a little pinball and have a little bit of a banter disagreement on some of these things. We've been pretty much in agreement for the most part. Yeah. Thanks, Rob and Kim. Thanks, Rob and Kim. Appreciate it. So I want to close out with this. Now, everybody, just hang tight for a second. We've been kind of talking about this Twitch thing, right? And some of you are probably like, man, I don't want to hear about Twitch anymore. This is the part where some people that don't want to hear about competitive pinball, they'll turn off a podcast. or this is the part where somebody doesn't want to hear about somebody's restoration, right? They'll turn off the podcast. This is the part where somebody doesn't want to hear about Twitch because Twitch streaming is just not your thing. You turn off the podcast. But let me keep your interest for just a second because this is going to be kind of cool. First, if you don't know what Twitch is, go to twitch.tv and check out what's going on there. People are broadcasting themselves playing video games and pinball machines, and they're interacting with people that get into a chat room in real time, and it's just kind of a fun dynamic. Now, we've done some streaming on our special and lit pinball channel recently. Flipping up pinball has given us the opportunity to go ahead and stream new games on a weekly basis. This is what I want you guys to do, because we're going to stream tonight. Deadpool right before it goes out. Jason Fowler from Slapstates actually coming into town and we'll tell you why to pick up this pinball machine on Friday. Now, on Friday, by the time you're hearing this, you still have time to put this on your calendar. We are going to be streaming and this is going to be kind of kind of just off the wall. It's going to be Bill Webb. It's going to be Ken Cromwell. It's going to be Zach Many of Straight Down the Middle of This Week in Pinball Podcast and the owner of Flip N Out Pinball. We are also going to have Jason Fowler of the Slap Save Pinball Podcast coming up to Chicago. And we are also going to have Ryan Kuyper, who is TurboGrafx7 on Twitch. If you haven't followed his channel, this guy's been streaming pinball for a long time, and he does it professionally. And that's, you know, TurboGrafx. It's T-U-R-B-O-G-R-A-F-X-7, the number seven. Go there and follow him. All of us are going to come to a... We're going to unite for a night of pinball. Right. It's going to be a... Great night of pinball. Great night of pinball. And maybe, if we're lucky, our buddy Steve Beattie will be flying in from Europe and be able to make this stream. Right. And he's in Croatia. Yeah, he is in Croatia. He's checking out whatever he's checking out. It gets better because there's some stuff here that you don't even know. Uh-oh. Okay, now you know this, right? So we are going to be streaming Black Knight Sword of Rage LE. Dun-dun-dun. Okay, so we're going to have that game set up for streaming. Now, typically, we're streaming out of the Special Inlet Pinball Podcast Studios for Flip N Out Pinball. But not tomorrow or not Friday. No, this will be a little different. This one, we're streaming the game outside the studios. We're streaming the game in natural environments under the gazebo of the backyard of the Special Inlet Pinball Podcast Studio. So it's going to be an outdoor stream, which should be interesting because my neighbors are going to think we're nuts. They're going to be walking back and forth because I'm a corner house. There's a lot of traffic coming by, you know, people walking their dogs and their kids and cars going back and forth. And they're not used to seeing a lot of crazy pinball action coming out of the Special Inlet Pinball Podcast Studio gazebo. Dude, we just got to make sure the cooler's full. So we can. Cooler's going to be full. Oh, here, have a beer. It's going to be a lot of refreshments. Now, we will be streaming that evening. And this is what you don't know about. Uh-oh. And I can't tell you because potentially it's going to be a big surprise. We might have an unbelievable special guest that may be dropping by that night. And the reason that I can't confirm this or not is because this guy's a little bit under the Carl Weathers. and he wants to make sure that he's fully recovered on Thursday to give me the go-ahead on Friday, in which case I'm still not going to share here what it is. But if you know pinball and you're a pinball fan and you're into big pinball celebrities, this is somebody that you're going to want to have an opportunity to talk to on the stream. Now, when you jump in on the stream, you jump into our chat room and follow our channel because our channel is Flip N Out Pinball. It's Flip, the letter N, Out Pinball. type that into the Twitch search engine, and then follow our channel. And that just lets you know that, hey, when we go live, you can check it out. Yeah, and if anyone's – oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off there. No, no, but I also want to say for your efforts of checking out these games that are being streamed, because, again, I'm legitimately excited about it, but I don't want to sound like I'm a commercial and I'm advertising. And I think I've already sounded like a commercial, but it's legitimately because I'm excited. You're just revving up the hype train, dude. I am. Well, because I'm excited about it, right? Well, so am I, dude. It's going to be very much like the, in my mind, what I envision is it's going to be like the Willy Wonka tailgate party that we did before. Yes. And that was awesome. Dude, I had a blast. I loved that. And we had a ton of people that watched that. We're going to have five mics live. And each person is going to have a microphone. So when you're in chat, you can talk about anything you want. Come in and talk about pinball. Ask us anything. Comment about the game. Get into some conversations with other people in chat. Because while you're there, as a thank you for stopping in, we've got some awesome, like, legit prizes that we're giving away. And the grand prize for that night, which I think is going to be pretty ridiculous, is going to be a Black Knight Sword of Rage Translight signed by the creative team that will be placed in an LED backlit frame so it hangs on the wall and plugs in and illuminates as, like, one of the bigger prizes on the stream. Dude, that's like a $350 value if I were to put a number. on it at least and uh and that's just again it's it's just we're celebrating pinball and i want to thank uh zach sharp and stern pinball for uh giving us the opportunity to give that away um and i want to thank brad hunter at lit frames for his donation on the uh on the the lit frame the backlit frame for the uh trans light so but do us a favor if you like the show and if you like pinball and you haven't done this before come in and just see how the chat goes there's a lot of podcasters a lot of pinball personalities that have been stopping in the chat having fun great times and what we do is after we stream the game for a couple hours right we shut the game off and we do our after hours and that's just like a live podcast where it's not oriented as much on gameplay but it's just on on conversation and that's so super fun it's one of my favorite parts of the night well and what's different about it is we have a lot of the podcast personalities in this uh exactly in uh chat and you know people have brought up questions and you see all the different podcasters answering that, you know, different perspectives in real time. Yep. Not, you know, hey, what do you think of X, Y, and Z to, you know. It's not read in viewer or listener mail or anything like that. I mean, it's in real time conversation. There's banter back and forth. We're able to kind of talk from the cuff, right, from the hip, shoot from the hip, reading something on a screen and be able to reply. And, again, I'm not going to hype this every single week because what's happening right now is people just know that it's a fun place to go visit. The reason that I'm focusing on this one so much is because for the two of us to be able to sit down with Ryan Kuyper, Jason Fowler, and Zach Menne all in the same stream and not on chat and to be able to all of us have a conversation and talk to people in chat. It's going to be a unique opportunity. And it's not because I'm the most interesting person in the world to talk to, but myself and Bill, we like hosting these kinds of things. And Ryan and Jason and Zach are absolutely interesting guys, and you're going to want to talk to them. And, of course, we're going to be there and make sure that everything goes as smoothly as possible. So consider joining us. It's going to be Friday night. I'm not really sure about the time. I would guesstimate it's going to be somewhere around 7.30 to 8.30 Central Time. So we'll post something on the page to let you know what we're shooting for. But if you follow the Twitch channel by going to twitch.tv and you type in flip and out pinball, all one word without spaces, you can find the channel. or you can actually go to twitch.tv forward slash flip and out pinball and hit enter, and it should take you right to the page. And we've got our archive streams there. We have the Oktoberfest stream with Josh Cougar where he came in and spoke. We're moving past Oktoberfest tonight. We've got a transitional game tonight that we're streaming. This will have already streamed by the time you listen to this, and that's Deadpool. And then we've got Black Knight Sword of Rage for a few weeks, Sword of Rage. And then some surprises. There are some two big surprises that I'm shocked that this might even be happening. I would say curveballs, too. I would say games that you're anticipating but you don't expect to be streamed. Meyer Brothers will absolutely be making their way. And there's three games, at least two that I know of that are coming quicker than I thought. Yeah. So we'll leave it at that. And you know what? If nothing else, man, if you just like good entertainment and good quality content and great one-liners and laugh, dude, it's been, honestly, it just seems like it's just a comedy show. I mean, for the people that watched last week with the PinStadiums, which the wife did actually see that video of the PinStadiums. Yeah, I saw her comment on that. Yeah, Scott sponsoring the birth of my child. We had that joke about the UV flashers going off when there was a contraction. Right. So the thing was, like, Bill may or may not be able to make Expo because the birth of his son is supposed to be literally right at the time of Expo. So we were considering ideas where if his wife gave birth to the baby at Expo and we illuminated it with pin stadiums, we could probably use alligator clips to tie the pin stadiums to fire the UV glow on contractions. Yeah, yeah. And the way that it was worded, we are not doing it any service by telling the story. No. You have to watch it. I mean, it was just I'll put that in the in the notes or the comments on the Facebook post. But again, it's just kind of goofiness like that. You're going to hear and the situation has gotten serious, too. I know there was some feedback I was listening to on Loser Kid Pinball podcast where Scott was talking about really appreciating you being able to share some some intimate thoughts behind your whirlwind restoration as it pertains to your mother. and that was something that you had never spoken about, but it was brought up on stream. So, I mean, it was kind of nice for people to get to know you a little bit more on a personal level and get more of an idea of the drive behind some of that restoration. So that was fun. And then I'm usually just kind of going with the flow and having some drinks and seeing where it goes. Sometimes it goes deep. See what I taste. Sometimes it's just nothing but a comedy show. Right, right. But you know what? It is whatever they want to make it, though. It is, and it seems like we always make something great out of it. So all good things. But on that note, Ken, this is episode 55. It is. And we want to thank our correspondents, Dr. John and Ryan Claytor, for their contributions. We want to thank Lermods.com. If you have not got an opportunity, if you have a Black Knight Sword or Rage Pro, go to Lermods.com right now and look at that ridiculous mod that they have for that machine. It's unbelievable. And use special when lit coupon code, which is SWL10. That's SWL10. At checkout, get 10% off that and let us know what you think. It's the sickest mod for Black Knight that I've seen. It is. All right. So for Bill Webb, I'm Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 38e2a9a0-40a5-45bb-9ab9-debc74e7ca64*