# Dirty Pool Podcast - Ep33 - Steve Bowden - Rules, Risk and Barry O’s **Source:** Dirtypool Pinball **Type:** video **Published:** 2026-05-27 **Duration:** 138m 4s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0gXKO47e9I --- ## Analysis Steve Bowden discusses his role as a pioneer of modern pinball commentary, his philosophy on making games accessible to both new and veteran players, and the challenge of balancing rule complexity between home and route markets. He shares insights on commentary techniques, game design philosophy (particularly around Barry O's), and reflects on the evolution of layered modern pinball rule design since the early 2000s. ### Key Claims - [MEDIUM] The market is now 70% home players vs. 30% route/location players, a complete flip from the late 1990s when it was reversed. — _Steve Bowden, discussing market shift. He notes this may be apocryphal (possibly from Stern) but widely repeated in the community._ - [MEDIUM] Monster Bash was a landmark game that introduced layered, contemporary rule complexity that defines modern pinball. — _Steve Bowden reflects on early examples of layered rules; he acknowledges uncertainty but identifies Monster Bash as a formative reference point._ - [LOW] Spider-Man 2007 (Stern) is the first truly modern rule set, with significant improvements made by Lyman after initial release. — _Joe Carino (chat participant) suggests this; Steve acknowledges having Spider-Man 'in his back pocket' as a Lyman game but doesn't confirm as definitive answer._ - [HIGH] Steven Bowden website funwithbonus.com was established on Friday, September 29th, 2006 (19-20 years ago). — _Steve Bowden directly states he verified the domain registration date._ - [HIGH] Certain complex rules features were deliberately removed from Barry O's game because they couldn't be taught organically to players. — _Steve Bowden: 'There are things that aren't in Barry's game because I'm sitting up 2:30 in the morning thinking I'm not going to be able to teach the player this organically.'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I have a bold claim here. I think that Papa, your commentary, and a lot of the early streaming of pinball is directly responsible for people getting better at pinball quickly." > — **Host (Dirtypool Pinball)**, Mid-conversation > _Acknowledges Steve's outsized influence on player skill development through educational commentary._ > "The commentator's desk is the best seat in the house if you're not in the finals." > — **Steve Bowden**, Early in interview > _Core insight into why commentary is appealing and how it positions viewers._ > "I created that in my mind, you know, like, okay, if you're going to the first chair, you got to do the interstitials... we do that every 15 minutes." > — **Steve Bowden**, Mid-conversation > _Reveals his developed commentary framework (first/second/third chair roles) was self-created, not taught._ > "I will say three things that could happen and I know they're going to pick one of them... I look magical cuz I predicted it, but I didn't." > — **Steve Bowden**, Mid-conversation > _Reveals a mentalist-style prediction technique that makes both player and commentator look good._ > "Be excited. Be exciting. Be interesting. Try not to curse. And it's going to sound great." > — **Steve Bowden**, Mid-conversation > _Distilled philosophy for commentary performance._ > "Accessibility is a finicky thing in pinball, right? Because you want new players not to be afraid to play... But now you've got this lineage of people that have been playing the game for 20, 30, 50, 60 years." > — **Steve Bowden**, Later in interview > _Core design tension he grapples with._ > "You want them to feel like they're the best player in the world even if they get 10 points, right?" > — **Steve Bowden**, Discussing location/casual play > _Philosophy on how games should make casual/new players feel._ > "That's the lore. That's the legend... Spider-Man, you know, it first came out, people didn't like it or whatever. Lyman F. Sheats Jr. fixed it on some time." > — **Steve Bowden**, Discussing Spider-Man 2007 > _References community lore about Lyman's post-release improvements to Spider-Man._ > "The Great Pyramid needs sacrifices and tributes... It takes sacrifices to improve pinball though which is good right." > — **Steve Bowden**, Discussing his Twilight Zone shirt > _Playful reference to his love of Twilight Zone and its role in pinball history._ > "I had my plan ready... route pinball versus home pinball. I'm talking about my character named Johnny 8-year-old, who he is, where he comes from, why he's important in the game." > — **Steve Bowden**, Discussing Pokemon design philosophy > _Shows deliberate persona/framework he uses to analyze games (e.g., Johnny 8-year-old for accessibility testing)._ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Steve Bowden | person | Pioneer of modern pinball commentary; rules designer; educator; co-host/media figure; associated with Deep Root Pinball and American Pinball projects. | | fun with bonus | product | Steve Bowden's website (funwithbonus.com) established September 29, 2006; hosts educational content, blog, pinball dictionary, and community engagement. | | Deep Root Pinball | organization | Organization/project Steve Bowden is involved with; mentioned as topic for later discussion. | | American Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer; Steve Bowden involved with VA Phase One project mentioned for later discussion. | | [name withheld pending review] | organization | Major pinball tournament organization; original facility where Steve Bowden was invited to commentate by John Reploal and Petty Hendris. | | Pinball Map | product | Free service run by Ryan (+ 2 others) and supported by hundreds of volunteer operators; helps players locate playable pinball machines. | | IPDB (Internet Pinball Database) | product | Historical pinball reference database (ipdb.org); no longer actively updated; community notes Google search no longer refers to it. | | Monster Bash | game | Lyman-programmed pinball machine; Steve Bowden identifies it as landmark example of layered, contemporary rule design. | | Spider-Man | game | Stern pinball machine; Lyman-programmed; community lore suggests it had weak initial release, improved significantly by Lyman post-release; Steve Bowden cites as possible first modern rule set. | | Twilight Zone | game | Classic pinball machine referenced on Steve Bowden's shirt; one of his all-time favorite games. | | Barry O's | game | Game Steve Bowden is working on as rules designer; key design constraint is accessibility/teachability; several complex rules removed due to organic teaching concerns. | | Pokemon | game | Recent Stern pinball game; Steve Bowden designed with focus on route/location play and new player accessibility via 'Johnny 8-year-old' character framework. | | Transformers | game | Recent Stern pinball game; Steve Bowden attended media day; described as 'interesting oddity' in Stern lineup. | | John Reploal | person | Papa staff; invited Steve Bowden to commentate at early Papa tournament. | | Petty Hendris | person | Papa staff; invited Steve Bowden to commentate at early Papa tournament. | | Lyman F. Sheats Jr. | person | Pinball programmer/rules designer; associated with Monster Bash, Spider-Man improvements, and modern rule complexity development. | | Ryan | person | Creator and volunteer coordinator of Pinball Map; works with 2 others and hundreds of volunteer operators. | | Joe Carino | person | Chat participant in live stream; suggested Spider-Man 2007 as first modern rule set. | | Zmax | person | Professional pinball player; referenced by Steve Bowden as example of player with distinctive style predictable through commentary. | | Belidto Massenov | person | Classic-era professional pinball player; mentioned by Steve Bowden as example of known player when he started commentating. | | Angelson | person | Classic-era professional pinball player; mentioned by Steve Bowden as example of known player when he started commentating. | | Aari | person | Classic-era professional pinball player; mentioned by Steve Bowden as example of known player when he started commentating. | | Dirtypool Pinball | organization | Podcast/streaming show; host conducting interview with Steve Bowden. | ### Signals - **[community_signal]** Steve Bowden's pioneering commentary work (Papa broadcasts, early streaming) identified as foundational to modern pinball skill development and community engagement. (confidence: high) — Host credits Bowden and Papa with directly enabling player improvement; Bowden describes organic growth of commentary role from 2000s onward. - **[design_philosophy]** Core design tension in modern pinball: balancing casual/location player onboarding against home/collector depth and complexity. (confidence: high) — Steve Bowden extensively discusses removing complex rules from Barry O's due to teaching constraints; discusses 70/30 home/route split affecting design decisions. - **[market_signal]** Pinball market composition has reversed: late 1990s = 70% route/30% home; current = 70% home/30% route (per Stern, per community lore). (confidence: medium) — Steve Bowden cites 70/30 home market as widely accepted figure, acknowledges uncertainty on official source but notes it has 'gotten legs' in community discourse. - **[design_innovation]** Evolution from linear rule design (Congo, Shadow) to layered contemporary complexity (Lyman games, modern Stern titles) represents fundamental shift in game design philosophy. (confidence: medium) — Steve Bowden identifies Monster Bash and Spider-Man 2007 as landmarks; notes modern games inherently layered vs. earlier era. - **[historical_signal]** Lyman identified as pivotal figure in introducing/standardizing layered rule complexity in modern pinball (Monster Bash, Spider-Man improvements). (confidence: medium) — Steve Bowden cites Lyman as programmer behind Monster Bash; community lore describes Lyman fixing Spider-Man post-release. - **[content_signal]** Early Papa commentary broadcasts and pinball streaming (2000s onward) established educational framework that became template for modern pinball media. (confidence: high) — Steve Bowden describes deliberate composition of commentary for new-viewer onboarding; notes 15-minute viewer churn model; attributes skill development to broadcast education. - **[product_strategy]** Barry O's design explicitly constrained by requirement that all rule features be teachable to casual/new players organically during gameplay. (confidence: high) — Steve Bowden: 'I'm sitting up 2:30 in the morning thinking I'm not going to be able to teach the player this organically... I have to bail out.' - **[venue_signal]** Location/route play requires immediate payoff and feel-good experience for casual players with limited dollar/playtime; design goal is making $1-$10 investment feel rewarding. (confidence: high) — Steve Bowden: 'You got a dollar... this is your shot, manufacturer, to make that kid a pinball fan. You want them to feel like they're the best player in the world even if they get 10 points.' - **[community_signal]** IPDB (Internet Pinball Database), foundational historical resource, no longer actively maintained; community questions if it's been replaced or abandoned. (confidence: medium) — Discussion of IPDB no longer being updated; Google search no longer returns IPDB for 'internet pinball database'; community speculates on reasons (replaced by Kinesthetics, cost, etc.). - **[community_signal]** Pinball community sustained by volunteer-run free services (Pinball Map, fan sites, documentation); unpaid labor sustains community access. (confidence: high) — Steve Bowden credits Pinball Map (Ryan + 2 others + hundreds of operators) as free service sustained by hobby passion; notes volunteer nature of community infrastructure. - **[design_innovation]** Steve Bowden describes deliberate techniques for effective commentary: three-option dry reads, timeline prediction, heel/face antagonism, tailored questions to draw out co-commentators. (confidence: high) — Steve Bowden explains 'mentalist' technique of offering three outcomes to make predictions appear magical; discusses role differentiation (first/second/third chair). - **[personnel_signal]** Steve Bowden deeply involved in current industry projects (Deep Root Pinball, American Pinball VA Phase One), indicating ongoing influence on new game development. (confidence: medium) — Topics listed for later discussion include Deep Root and American Pinball involvement; Barry O's design work discussed extensively. --- ## Transcript Hello everybody. What's going on? Welcome to the Dirty Pool podcast. We might be having some network issues right now. I'm seeing some severe dropped frames. I think our local internet is acting up. So, um, we may pull the plug on this for just a second and then go back. But let's find out. Chat, you tell me. Uh, are we are we stuttering? Are we dropping? Are things sounding silly? And if they're not, uh, we'll continue. But I have a feeling they will. Um, in the meantime, I'm going to do the introduction. Anyways, I'm super excited for this particular podcast interview. I have with me the absolutely famous Steve Bowen, the originator of modern pinball commentary. Uh, what's going on, man? Oh, thank you for that. [laughter] Okay. I was somebody was like, "No, I did it first." I was like, "Okay." But, uh, oh, I'm doing I am doing fantastic. It's great to finally be able to talk with you beyond the show. No, we've been uh it's one of those where we've been chips crossing together in the night, you know, passing and whatever and trying to get a good time to do this. And so, I'm glad that uh we we finally get this together. And this is going to be a good it's going to be a really good show. I think really we have a lot of cool stuff to talk about. [laughter] Chat, are we good? Are we good? Panther one locking in says nuclear black. What's going on everybody? This is a live stream, so please love and hit those questions as we talk. We have a slew of topics today. We're going to talk about Papa Commentating, getting into rules, designed, deeproot, Raza, and we'll talk about some American Pinball VA phase one stuff. Um, yeah. So, really, I guess everyone's saying it's pretty good. So, if it is a little choppy, I apologize. Hopefully, that'll uh even out. It's It's not on my end. It's not on Steve's end. This is Time Warner Cable doing their business. Uh, okay. But enough of that, dude. Thank you and welcome. Uh, thank you. I love to be here. This is great. I I really I firmly believe that you and uh uh Bowen are kind of the grandfathers of modern pinball commentary. And where uh Bowen is more on the like tutorial side of the education, you were the commentary side. I have been watching you from maybe Steve could be louder. Got it. No problem. I've been watching Papa broadcast for I want to say at least a decade. Uh of seeing you guys stream at Pinberg at the original facility for Papa. Um you've been a part of that journey for so long. Did you sit down and you were like I'm going to be a commentator or was there more of like an organic process for it? This this is what happened. One one papa one year um they were they were getting commentators. They had this booth that was set up and they were doing a real push for commentators. And [sighs and gasps] I was invited to be on by John Reploal and Pety Hendris, Papa Staff. Shout outs to them, uh, you know, Pittsburgh people. And I had no idea whether I was good at it or not, but it was one of those things where, you know, say yes to things and try it, [laughter] right? [gasps] I mean, we're talking pinball, so it's not just me up there. So, I have a couple other people that I can bounce off of and do whatever. So, just went out there and uh just hey, I did I just didn't have to make sure I didn't have to, you know, show out or say everything or whatever cuz I got people to bounce off of and you know, pure rookie. I'm just talking about the game in front of me as if I would somebody else. And so like I have no idea if I'm doing well or if I'm doing poorly or what, but things seem to work out well and I just sort of kept going and kept being invited back and kept being asked organically to come on. So I like I appreciate everyone who invites me. I never impose because you know I like just watching too but the commentator's desk is the best seat in the house if you're not in the finals. [laughter] So true. front row seat. And so I want so so part of my goal is to project that seat to the viewer to have them have a better seat to what to how they're watching the show and to present and also to help whoever I'm working with help them look good cuz if they're looking good then I'm looking good and if we're looking good then the show's looking good and it all works that way and I'm just I'm learning all this organically like I no one no one told me what the first chair, second chair and third chair are. I created that in my mind, you know, like, okay, if you're going to the first chair, you got to do the interstitials sort of you're doing the intros. Hello, and we are and welcome to this, that, and the other. And we're here, and this is who we are, what we're doing, why we're here, and how we do it. We do that every 15 minutes. And yeah, so one thing that really blew me away about how you talk about pinball and talk about commentating is I feel like I'm not I'm sitting there with like my best friend and he's telling me the rules. Like it didn't it didn't feel like I'm watching this like overproduced kind of like I don't know CNN ESPN broadcast kind of thing. I just felt like I had somebody who knew what the [] they were talking about and was giving it to me in a way like that I could just absorb. but also who will tell you honestly when they don't know and then when I get to switch a mode into learning mode and say okay we're going to learn together about what this is because we're in a part of the game that I even hadn't played yet studied or reached myself or whatever just to know that yes I am a human with limits on my mental capacity so let me show you how we get around this right but but uh that's all that's all part of my wanting to break things down let me show you How I sort of organically kind of learned that is, you know, as Twitch broadcasts became more prevalent and I started watching more of them, I started watching other games like, oh, here's Counter Strike and here's League of Legends and here's, okay, so I'm watching League of Legends and I have no idea League of Legends. I've never played League of Legends before, but I can understand like the field of play sort of, right? Just like if you're looking at a football field, there's a green area and people are trying to get to that end versus that end. And so that's my limit of knowledge. And then I was noticing how much the commentators weren't bringing new people in [clears throat] to the thing. Like I'm a new like I'm that new person that has come in every 15 minutes. You know, every 15 minutes you get a new person who's watching the show. So this time I was it. And so like at no point was I like introduced to who these people are, what this is, what the stakes are, anything, right? So I just made a mental note of that because at the end of a half hour, 45 minutes, I'm like, "Okay, I'm interested in this thing because it's new." But if if at any point I was not interested, I'd be gone. You know, I don't have a foothold to grab on to. So that just cued in my head, okay, make sure that you keep in mind that there new people watching. I know you have a lot of people watching who know what's going on but it doesn't take long to do an interial be try I mean you know there's professionals I mean there's professionals I tried to model myself after that I never will be able to like you know anytime you never felt like you were trying to emulate somebody felt like you were just being yourself and yeah and I'm not trying and I'm not and believe I'm trying to be that's is it's hard to do that as much as I can believe [laughter] me it's you know just just to be yourself and and do that people say that it's you just be yourself. No, it isn't. No, it's [laughter] not. Okay. No, it's not. No. No, that's not. But, you know, but you also want to be professional. You want to represent it well. And you also want to make sure I mean, I I got past that point where I was like thinking, okay, I kind of know what to do. Now, I'm at the point where I'm like, okay, be excited. Be be exciting. Be interesting. Try not to curse. And [laughter] it's going to sound great. And so, that's good. I mean, I pass that, you know, like because it seems like that rule is also passed for everybody as well. Sure. So, I have a bold claim here. I think that Papa, your commentary, and a lot of the early streaming of pinball is directly responsible for people getting better at pinball quickly because everyone I know looks back at these tutorials. They look back at these games to learn the rules, to see other people play, to learn new skills like shatzing and all that. Like I I think unintentionally you may be responsible for the improvement of kind of players skill set. That is that is something that I thank you for saying that because that just gives me motivation to keep going. I mean it's that that tells me I'm doing something right because I said I'm sitting down and just like here I'm just talking to you, right? It's just well just would be there's a game in front of me which I know mostly of and if I happen to know the player and know their tendencies I can use that and if I happen to know the people who I'm working with their attitudes I can sort of use that. Maybe I can do a little bit of heel commentary, face commentary like WWE, you know, purposely purposely do some antagonistic things so I know they're gonna take opposite or sure or if I know someone is not as talkative, I can ask a question that I 99.9% know they know the answer to and then they can expound on that. So now they've just now they are now being talkative or if I'm on with someone. Did you know any when you started? Did I say again? Did you know any of the like main players that were kind of like big in the in the pinball scene when you started commentating? Cuz I remember you would you would be like, "Oh, you know, you know, Zmax's going to be doing this or that." I mean, I realize Zmax's kind of way later in the day, but I mean, I guess he was a baby at that point, right? [laughter] But, you know, you would throw in uh kind of like intentional, you knew what the player was going to do because you knew their style, you knew whatever. So, it made the just so much more engaging the commentary instead of just they're shooting the left ramp, blah. Right. But there's also a trick to that is like you know when I came on when when I was first invited we're talking about names like Belidto Massenov you know Angelson you're talking about aari you know things like those names right so uh so but and and trying to learn from their tendencies and also paying attention with how they play know offline when I'm not doing commentary when I'm playing against them when I have the privilege to be in a final or in a playoff with them and and learn how they play. Um, but the little trick to that is that sometimes what I'll do is I will say three things that could happen and I know they're going to pick one of them. I do that at the end of every So, Right. [laughter] Right. And so, so they pick one. I look magical cuz I predicted it, but I didn't cuz I I I dry read three things, right? I did a, you know, dry read like a mentalist or whatever. Sure, they picked one. They look good cuz they did it. I look good because they they predicted it. The whole stream looks good. Everybody looks smart. The person at home looks smart cuz they said, "Oh, I I knew what they wanted to do because he said processing this and making it seamless." You know, it doesn't look like you're, you know, processing all this to make it. It just becomes like this one little experience. Yeah. Really? Your brain's like no. [laughter] And I hope that's what's happening is because again I'm just sitting down talking to my my perspective is I'm just sitting down talking and here's how go charters and this is awesome and I know what's going on and you know let's see who we can tap past and all that. So is an amazing game. It's an amazing game and so and so I'm bringing that forward and so as if if I'm accomplishing that great I'm going to try to keep doing that. I'm going to try to not like affect what I'm doing because apparently I'm doing it right. So, I don't want to [laughter] change too. So, to ping pong off that, uh, this is live, so we got some questions coming in. So, Shanosaur has a great question. He's asking, "Do you feel you have to be a great pinball player yourself to be a good commentator or is that just a little like icing?" That's icing. I mean, it's is it's good for predicting. It's good for predictive if you're trying to commentate ahead of the timeline when I take risks like that. You know, he he might do this or she might do this or they might do that, right? Uh, but you don't have to. I mean there there are there are times when I will be on a game I have no idea about or I'm really poor at the rules on or really poor at certain aspects of it or I will go slightly behind the timeline and just uh follow I'm learning with them but I'm disguising it and then at a certain point I'll jump ahead of the timeline and predict them and go back you know so but I'm not doing I'm not doing this I'm not thinking about this as I'm sitting like I'm just talking but if I were to analyze if I go back and watch what I'm doing later. That's then I oh that's what I'm doing. But do you do that? I think that's critical to improve being an online person. Like I I shamelessly watch my own streams to try to figure out how to be better at presenting stuff. Oh yeah. I got I got over listening to myself and how I sound quickly, you know? I was like, "Oh, you Oh, I sound terrible. That how I sound?" Yeah, that's how you sound, bro. People say you sound good. I'm like, I do. [laughter] I think you sound great. Uh if you're commentating and there's they they move the rig over to a game that you don't know the rules on, right? How do you if someone's watching this and they want to be a commentator and they're like, "Man, I just I'm afraid of not knowing enough about the games. What's the move there?" Well, there's still pinball is still pinball, whatever it is. So, there's still shots to be made and lights to follow. There's still light. There are still pinball. The pinball game that you have has lights that will flash. The flashier the light, the more important it is. Usually. [laughter] Okay. Usually the rumor is the more important it is. Unless you're Dwight and you make everything flash. [laughter] I said usually, right? So, if you can follow and and what will happen is depending on the level of play, it depends on how quickly you'll be able to see what the two or three shots people are going for and why. And the game will probably tell you that within the first minute or two. And then if you pay attention to it and then you realize that you don't have to talk all the time. Do you think Do you think great games do you think great games like reveal what the rules are through just naturally playing it? Teaching the player. That's I'm all about teaching the player. And so if there are many things I mean I'm sure we'll get to that part in this in the show, but I mean there are things that are not It's coming up. It's coming up. But there there are things that are not in Barry's game because I'm sitting up 2:30 in the morning thinking I'm not going to be able to teach the player this organically. It's not going to work. I can't do it. I have to bail out. I know it's not going to be as complicated, but I have to bail out. I don't think we can do this. And so there are things that aren't in it because of [clears throat] it. There are things that I've xed out on my rules because of it. Accessibility is a is a finicky thing in pinball, right? Because you want new players not to be afraid to play because you want new players to be in the in the hobby. But now you've got this lineage of people that have been playing the game for 20, 30, 50, 60 years if they're really playing them old wood rail wood rails, you know, right? How do you make a game exciting for both players? It is such a it is such a balancing and it's even more people on that balance on that balance beam is you have you have the two samples you mentioned right and then you have the fact that the market has flipped to where now it's dominated by the home market and not the route market. I mean, if we believe Stern, I mean, I don't know. Did Stern say it was 7030 homes? I don't know if that was an official announcement, but it's gotten legs. Like, everybody throw I throw that number around, too. It's just like it's 70% of the market. 70% of the market. Like, sounds right. It sounds good enough to at least have a discussion on it without doing a straight up study on it, you know? It sounds good enough to at least go forward with that number. I mean, yeah, I remember when it was 7030 the other way, right? I mean, we're talking they were talking about late 90s, right? I mean, you know, that's what that's your late 90s area. And so you didn't have to worry about games having layers upon sub layers upon sub layers because you can buy the game and own the game and mess with the game when you want and you always have a chance to play it versus someone who doesn't own it who doesn't have the chance to play it as often and so they can't really get into the minutia and they can't get into the riskreward and they can't get into the efficiency and they can't talk about EV like we're talking about poker or whatever. They can't talk about efficiency and per shot and they can't take the glass off and take the and literally hit stuff and see what they do. No, they got a dollar. Okay, [laughter] they got this $1 that they got from their parents and they're going to go play Pokemon with this dollar and this is their shot and this is your shot, manufacturer, to make that kid a pinball fan. feel like a legend. You want them to feel like they're the best player in the world even if they get 10 points, right? But so there's that side of the market and then there's the other side of the market where pinball games cost $7,000 on the low. On the low for sure. So that's you have it's not like a video game where a video game is $60 and you get to have it or Okay, let's Okay, $100. Say GTA 6 whenever it comes out when it takes its good sweet time, it's going to be $100. Right? And it's $100, but then you have it, right? So you can play whatever you want and it's also $100 and also everybody has it. Or you have a freetoplay game. It's free to play. What is the where is the barrier of entry of a free-to-play game? You have a computer or you have a cell phone, right? Which can be which can be a barrier to some people. Sure, but it's not a $7,000 barrier for sure. But it ain't that right. That's not a $7,000. And you got people with collections, right, who can do all these things and and they got and they have collections and they're friends with other people who have collections and they get on news groups with people who have other collections and they get on Discord to talk and talk about the minutia and everything and really nail everything down. And then you have people who are just trying to go to their local route with $10 and try to extend their game time just a little while longer. Sure. So you mentioned you mentioned layered you mentioned layered rules in terms of modern pinball. What do you think is the first like truly modern pinball machine where it's not like a linear rule set you know where the first game to kind of pave the way for it's going to be a [clears throat] lineman game. I just have to you think which one I would pick. [laughter] I mean thank you Lyman. I mean, you know, it's going to be that level cuz I mean, I know I know the first time I thought about that. I think it was Monster Bash, you know, about how great George I remember I remember the first time I thought about that layering as a thing was and I was talking about Monster Bash as that like and this is years ago. So now this is just coming in my brain like when did I first remember? This is a bold claim. That's saying that Monster Bash is the like first contemporary modern. I'm not saying No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that's I remember talking about it and using that as an example. Okay. Now, I don't know if that that's not the answer to the question, but cuz I don't I think it's a pretty good if that's the game that popped in your head, that means it's one that left, you know, it left a a mark that it had that kind of a structure. Is there another game that you think has that kind of a structure? That kind of a mark in the hit like that left that kind of a mark back in the day. I'm not I have to think I'd have to really think about what it was, but I mean all the modern ones do. I mean, absolutely. [laughter] But now, but now it's just that's the way it is, right? And it wasn't like that. I mean, you know, we we were talking about this the screenshot for the thumbnail, right? You know, that has like Shadow and some other games in it. Uh, Congo, you know, those are fairly linear games. Like, you know, there's there's multiballs in it and there's like objectives and whatnot, but it doesn't have the like distinct contemporary layering that you see in like L1 games or Gomez games that are coming out these days. I'm just curious if it was a natural evolution or if there was like a a landmark that made it happen as a rules designer, right? Yeah. I don't remember when that was. I just know I just know it was a lying game. I just know it had been for me. That's when I started paying attention because to me, Monster Bash is a Lyman game. I mean, I knew Lyman was on it before Gomez was on it. Monster Bash is a Lyman game to me. So then the real question is Lyman the programmer that really created the modern pinball format is Lyman to well to me I mean I don't know if that's true like if we go we can go back and find the answers to the question we just go to IMPDB and look at dates I couldn't even find it like we could find update anymore how crazy is that that IPDB is just like that was like the website I would go for finding manuals or schematics in order to like work on games or just see pictures of games that I was curious about see what other rated it and it's just like it's gone. Like I met there's probably so many modern pinball people that don't even know what that website is, which is just mind-blowing. It hasn't been updated in like chat's probably going to correct me here, but it's it hasn't been updated in years, I think. Uh but I mean, is it cost? I mean, there must be some reason other than I mean, it could be straight up because kind of replaced it because of the other features it provides, you know? Could be. I mean, well, and but if there's a replacement, then maybe you don't need to. I mean cuz again kineseticus also has its database. So true if it doesn't need to then maybe it doesn't need to. I mean maybe it'll do a refresh at some point in the future. But I mean I don't want it to make it feel like they have this obligation to provide us this free service. No pinball people love to do free work. Like people love the hobby so much that they'll just do take so much of their free time to create stuff like uh you know Ryan I I'll mention Pinball Map, right? So Ryan and Pinball Map and his there's two other people there that also help that structure as well as like hundreds of other like operators that uh help to like QC and make sure the games are like updated correctly on the list. You know that he's not getting paid for this. It's a free service because he wants people to be able to find pinball machines. So you know Yeah. And so that's why I appreciate all those people who give away these services and their time. So that's why I don't want to, you know, I don't I don't want to speculate what on what happened with IPD because there'll be a video coming out. What happened with IPDB and all this one is one reffried noodles said that Google doesn't even refer to ipdb.org anymore if you search for internet pinball database. That's crazy. Um, oh Joe Carino's here. Pendy Genen, shout out. He's saying what's up. Uh, what's up, Joe? What's going on? He says he thinks Spider-Man from 2007 is the first modern rule set. Wow, what a funny thing that he has said. We were just talking about Spider-Man. [laughter] [snorts] I I mean, you know, I said I wasn't I wasn't coming as forward with Spider-Man because I mean, I had Spider-Man in my back pocket cuz I'm like, I knew it was a I know it's a Ling game to me, like in my head, right? Because I'm like Spider-Man, you know, it first came out, people didn't like it or whatever. Then Lyman fixed it on some time. That's the lore. That's the legend, you know? And then he improved in such a thing and then it became my favorite pinball game of all time for a long time. It was Spider-Man one and it was Twilight Zone 2. It was one and it was one in one. Can we show off your shirt? Well, okay. Yeah, we haven't seen Yeah. Okay. Let's Let's uh not only is the Great Pyramid on there, battle power, the reference to my favorite goddamn pinball machine. One of there you go. Because you know the the because the great py pyramid needs it sacrifices and tributes. So come battle the power only to it. It takes its sacrifices to improve pinball though which is good right. And you and you contribute it's your tribute to the great pyramid as part you know so I've been in cahoots with the pyramid for a while. So like I said it was it was and and this this shirt has appeared in ESPN the magazine as a also [laughter] by the way. Thank you. I I also want to mention so funwithbonus.com is is your website where you you used to have a lot of educational stuff and now it seems like it's kind of more like blog format format now but the new the new pinball dictionary is still there. Uh my backlog is embarrassing. Sorry everybody but the Reddit is there. No, you posted you posted about Transformers and you mentioned me and the Great Pyramid. I appreciate that. I had to get everybody who was there at Transformers, you know. I was at I was there immediate day. I was like here look here's me and look there's proof I was there at media day. So, you know, I don't I don't I I like I didn't have my like I didn't have my Walter Kron kite take like I did on on Pokemon yet ready yet. So, I don't know if I want to write that but or that game's an interesting oddity in the Stern lineup for sure. Mhm. So, like I didn't I didn't have that ready because I was Pokemon. I knew I I had I had my plan ready. I had I had my perspective. I'm talking about, you know, route pinball versus home pinball. I'm talking about my character named Johnny 8-year-old, who he is, where he comes from, why he's important in the game, and you know, uh, why the I'm glad that there was sanity in the room when they created um the rules as far as the play field and how it's simple and how little Johnny can go on go in and learn about the game quickly. So, I kind of had that planned out a little bit. So, that's where that that came from. And I didn't have that for Transformers. So, I'm like, I got to make sure that everybody is represented who is here. So, I started trying to find everybody who was there like, "Okay, the content's out there. Let's get it all on on one page." So, if everybody doesn't see it, they haven't seen mine. They just see it. They'll see everything and they can go look at it. Just want to pull it up real quick just so you guys can see what his website. What? Oh, no, no, no. Don't I don't know what that is. Um, anyways, fun with bonus. This is the website. Uh, I'd highly recommend checking it out. I just your your insight and your text is just as fascinating and and natural as writing as your as your live commentary. So, I just wanted to plug that cuz I feel like a lot of people don't and should know about Fun with Bonus. Uh, as it is part of you as well. Um, yeah. Yeah, I I had that I had that moment. Uh, I I did have that um you know have those moments that getting old moment. I did have that recently. I have that daily with my neck. [laughter] Yeah. I was like I was I was I was making that post, right? I was making that post and posting whatever. And they're thinking about the website like okay making making sure my sec my certificates are secure you know security make sure the HTPS and all that whatever database okay [snorts] and I'm thinking like and I'm seeing stuff like oh you know make sure your is your site secure is your site trustworthy do you do is your certificate valid one of the things that is that is uh a hallmark of a security of a site is how old it is and I'm like do you have to see how like man that sounds like a credit rating I'm looking like Oh, you got a credit rating website. The phone with bonus has been around for decades or a decade. I wonder how old my site is. So, cuz I didn't I didn't remember exactly. So, I went to find out and I'm like I wanted to find out and so like I didn't use that link cuz that link looked like spam, you know? So, I know there's other links. So, I looked at that and I went there and I put it on and I was like, "Okay, I put it up and I put it there." I said, "Okay, whatever." The thing came back and it said, and I'm going to put it up now. I said Friday the 29th of September 2006. Dang. It's your 20 year anniversary. 19 years 7 months. And I'm like, where was I? Friday the 29th of September. And I'm like I now I like I am teaching computer science programming and networking in a high school in Jersey City. That's where I am. September 29th. That is a couple of lifetimes ago. All right. That's pretty amazing. Well, you've done you've done a whole lot. And let's let's let's move on to some of the more recent uh pinball related stuff that you've got going on because you have been involved in some wild [] I'm going throw out names like Deeproot, American Pinball. But before we get into that, because you were doing rules design there, so we got to talk about rules design, shall we? Okay. I mean, what are we wanting to get into? Yeah, let's go. Let's talk about when I I think about it a lot of the of my day. Just part of my natural thinking about life is thinking about, you know, rules, design, teaching the player things, balance, riskreward, writing stuff up if I'm bored about some other topic that I never show. Well, and that's and that's one of the things I love about the podcast is like, you know, we've had other rules designer on like Ray Day and and um Carl D'Python Anghelo, you know, Bowen Kerins has been on here as well. And it's just hearing how each of you guys kind of approach like there's some similarities, right? Like there's just some fundamental what I would call sound of like foundation rule set stuff that is in every pinball machine, but then everybody has their own kind of like flare. What would what would you consider is your like flare to rules design for your own projects? Well, I hope my hope my flare is ease of understanding. Um that's that's what I'm hoping for. Like like I'm I I'm really I noticed I am slanted toward the route player because I like I want you to go up with your dollar and then I want to be able to earn that second dollar cuz it's the second dollar that's the important dollar. The first dollar goes in, you have no idea what's going on. The second dollar proves that you had enough enjoyment with that first dollar to continue your investment in this experience and game. Cuz a lot of times what happens is people people will walk up and they will play pinball and not even flip cuz they don't know, you know, I mean you it's like it's like putting them in front of a nuclear reactor. It's not saying so afraid of pinball missions know they don't know, you know, they don't know. So it's important to know. I saw it happen on Pokemon. People go, "Oh, it's Pokemon." They step up, they plunge, they knew to plunge the ball, but they didn't know to the flippers. I was like, this is an interesting experiment that I'm not going to pretend I'm not stalking them on. I'm just looking, right? You know, I'm playing I'm playing Foo Fighters, you know. I'm not I'm just I don't want to go over there. I don't want to go over there and pinpoint anything yet. This is interesting, you know. Let me look. I'm sorry. Did you say pinsplain? [laughter] Yeah. I want Yeah, I just want to look at them and because this is interesting data, you know. It's a new It's like a new player playing your game, you know. This is vital data. Wow, that's hilarious. I can't I I got to see. Okay. How quickly do they learn that they're flippers here? Okay, we got we got some chat popping off. Let me let me give you some rapid fire real quick. Uh, shout out David Van Es in the house. We got Barrel's a fun CEO hanging out. He says he loves hearing Steve's love for pinball. Yo, shout out. Yo, shout out to Barrels. I mean, I got I got I got my time on Doom. Thank goodness. The dude, the best playing Dune so far was at Delaware Pinball Open. Mid-Atlantic Pinball Open a division. I learned that game for $2 a game. It was fantastic. [laughter] That's expensive. During qualifying, I learned about that game. So, so thrown into the weeds. Well, so did did Dune educate you? Like did give the rules through gameplay as you would hope enough to get me to where I need to go. Like I didn't I didn't go far enough like I didn't go far enough to like I didn't go far enough to like where I would own the game and get into deep stuff, you know? Sure. But let All right, let's you know what? I'm going to go to Doom. This is a great topic. Just thank you for the segue. Fantastic. Way to go, David. You just derailed my whole interview to talk about Dune. I don't I don't think it's derailing at all because like, [laughter] let's do it. Because usually my time my time on Dune, my games on Dune were okay, ball one, I start the first I I get the skill shot, start harvester, and then I don't know what I'm doing, and I the easiest mode start in the history of pinball. Well, cuz it has like it's a skill shot. Like I can do the skill shot. I told you it would be skill shot, hold the flipper up, drop it, cheat it, get the 10 million, harvest the one. Okay, probably die cuz I don't know what I'm doing. Okay, skill shot, ball two, whatever. Maybe get the 10 million or the five, depending on what game says. Harvester do two. Then ball three, try to mess with the little radical. No, either ball two or three. Somewhere in that point, I've messed with the little radical looking kicker on the right. Rattles is on the left, but it's on the right. lock. Yeah, cuz I don't know any references. I don't remember Dune. All I remember about Dune is that, you know, the Spice Raises Consciousness, Patrick Stewart's in it, and Blue Eyes and the Sandworm. That's all I know. Remember, honestly, that's that's mostly enough of Dune knowledge, [laughter] right? So, okay. So, that's all I wanted to. So, I'm like, okay. And and then most of the Dunes I didn't play, most most of the DS I played, the slippers weren't strong enough to hit the shot in the bag, right? Pass the sand worm. There's the ramp back there. And so, I couldn't do much of anything. And so, part of my enjoyment was stunted by that fact. it was equipment or it was down or it was there or was being fixed or something like that. He needs fans for tournament play. This is you know once those coils heat up it's just like any game it gets destroyed by coil. Speaking of speaking of being fans like hello Barry's game. Okay. Um but like um yeah so so my enjoyment factor was limited by that and so because of the fact Doom wasn't out in a lot of places so it I'm not buying it you know I'm not a I'm not I'm a player. I'm not a collector. So when I find it, I'll either I'll find it and it's down or find it's gone. I'll find it and I'll get my my game in and that's all I get. Harvester one, harvester two. Failed multiball cuz I don't know whether it's lit or not cuz the lights are going the wrong way and I can't see if it's close or not. It's heading away from me instead of toward me. So I don't know. It's fair. So I don't know I don't know how close I am in the multiball. And then pain box done. You know pain box dead. That was my game. And then Delaware in Delaware. I'm like, "Okay, you know, they're doing the tilts, you know." Okay, how should this tilt be? Ste, they call me over. How does this tilt me? Okay, I'll test tilt. So, you know, I said it should be like a slap shave should give you two strikes, you know, and then you'll be in trouble after a slap shape. Should be that's like anything tighter than that bad. Anything looser than that is not good for circuit. Okay, my first flip, my first casual flip, the cleanest shot through the back, the sand worm up the ramp, like through the channel. Wasn't even thinking about it. I'm like, "Oh, that's how it's supposed to feel." Supposed to feel. Yeah. Oh, why did you do this? And he says, "Oh, I did this. I made sure I did this and I made sure it did this way and that's why it plays like that." It's like, "Oh, can you tell them um every arcade ever to do whatever you did because this was the greatest the greatest shot I ever mistakenly made casually ever." And I'm like, quote him, David, the greatest shot I've ever accidentally made. That's it. That should be the tagline. Dune pinball. And I'm like, "Oh, now now I can maybe learn about this game. Okay, I can shoot the left ramp. I can shoot this thing. I can get a combo. I can figure out, you know, I mean, I what means. I don't know. This is a huge pet peeve of mine, by the way, when arcades have games that are beat up like where you can't play and I but then so then I got past that part. So now I'm on the Okay, so now I'm ready because I'm charged. Now I get to learn about Dune and I'm like and I look up at the screen and I see water indicator and I see spice indicator but not the words the things. So I don't know what they are and I look on the screen I don't know what that is. And so I'm like well I'm going to I'm going to learn some things. I did something which got my water to 100 I think and that was apparently great that Bowen told me later and I was like dang your survival. I didn't understand that at all. I just wanted to get to a multiball so I could play because I'm at that you know mode plus multiball equals good that I want. So at that point I didn't and my learning was stunned in that way because again I'm at a tournament so I I can't study it or whatever and I learn by doing. So if I am doing a video like if I'm doing a video on something it doesn't help me as much it might as it might help other people cuz I have to go do it. I'm gonna forget stuff, you know, but I know that when I'm doing a video. So, I know that there's that other side where there's the visual learner, there's the kinesthetic learner and I know that from teaching and there's, you know, the audio learner. So, I'm like, okay, I know that from teaching. So, like I know I can teach in that way. It may not help someone like me, but it might help someone who isn't me who learns in that way. Pinball's amazing in that work because it it dials into all three of those learning kind of foundations, right? If you're someone who learns by watching, you can watch the display and have that tell you what to do. Or you look at the lights on the screen. If you learn by audio, you can listen to the call outs and have them tell you, "Shoot the left ramp, shoot the right ramp." Or if you learn by playing physically, you shoot the shot, see the result of what happens. I mean, it really pinball is like the holy trinity. Shout out to the Great Pyramid of uh, you know, of that kind of foundation. Dig it. And it's and it's a delicate balance as well because you can't have the screen do the heavy lifting because you can't look at the screen so much because you're trying to play pinball trying to not die. There's a whole not dying part. Screens are really for like other people to watch. You know, you watch the screen as a as a as a bystander instead of the person actively playing for the most part. But then there are ways you can use the screen. Well, like I like for example the way on just to think of right now the way on Star Wars new Star Wars um you can always you always know what the value of the current shot was is in the same spot on the screen. So when I'm glancing at I know where to look. I know where it is. Like I know I hit this shot. I know what number. Okay, that number up there I got for hitting I get the glance for a quarter of a second. Boom. Okay, I saw the number. I know that was for that shot. It was it might have been a lion under it that gave me further detail. I might have caught it. I might not have. But I know whatever is there. It's going to be there next time or some like the other things like that are going to be there. So it's going to be it's major award thing happened because of it. Oh, okay. So when I glance up there, I know I'm looking for I I major award thing. Now the thing that that confuses me in Star Wars is sometimes I don't know where the big numbers come from. So, you know, like it'll be like oh two 250,000 500 the electric did pin pals with Ray Day literally yesterday where he goes in everything. Highly recommend checking it out if you can. Serge does a lot of [laughter] that assignment. I'm going to view that. I'm going to study it and I'm going to forget most of it the next time I go play Star Wars because I don't learn that way. But but but they really the new rules that he has added I think is to help clarify a lot of what you're talking about. It's great. So, I'm like, "Yes, I know when I look there, it's going to be there." But the but the part that I get confused on is like it's like, "Okay, this shot's 250, 500, 750. Okay, I see my friendly numbers and all of a sudden 88 million." Oh, snap. What? Where'd that come from? And then next time I was like, "Okay, it's a million, a million, 250, a million, 500, 132 MILLION, FOLK, WHAT UP? WHAT? [laughter] OH, how'd you get that?" And so I got let me go back and figure out how to get that was because I had the double on the the name flashing plus this and that also made fed into it and that gave me the larger one. So that is that is those part that but again by that point and we're I'm into the minutia now I'm in the way into the part where a person who has their dollar is going to learn. Sure they're just trying to shoot the death star you know [laughter] trying to shoot the death star get big numbers but now I'm into the minutia. And they're like, you know, how do I how do I maximize this stuff? And this is the stuff that people who own games can get into. I got because when you own a game, you can you can really consume it for weeks at a time. And and you know, a lot of people, let's talk about ST Media Day, right? I hate having to talk about a game after ST media day because you just don't really have enough time for it. Like it's, you know, their games are available, but there's tons of people there waiting to play. You just can't put the mileage on a game to really like consume it. And then you're asked like, "Is it good? Is it bad?" And it's like, I could tell you how the shots flow, how they feel, but from a rule set, like it's just too difficult to dive into. I thought Transformers was pretty good to be honest. It did well. I think transfer like one one way I try to get around that is just an experiment I've been doing since I think since Guardians of the Galaxy is I've been trying to have my first game happen with as little input marketing anything exposure as possible so that I can do my best to become as close to a new player as I can right for that first that $1 person right I'm trying to pretend like what does the new player experience. I know I'm not the new player. I mean, there's certain things I have to have to fake if I was doing the new like new player stuff. Like, if I'm testing my own game or I'm testing games I work with, there are things that I purposely nerf myself on. Like, I'll purposely go after the badge target too much because that's what a new player would do, you know, I'll purposely go for the flashing thing cuz that's what a new player would do and just to see what that that is. So, I'm still keeping a bit of my inherent skill, but I'm still trying to simulate, okay, what does the game look like? What is the game teaching me? Steve has to simulate being a bad player because he's so good. Some of us don't have that luxury. [laughter] It's not even that I'm so good is that if I don't I want that type of data so that I'm interested to know like I'm interested to know what is the philosophy of this person's rules on teaching the player their game, you know? So that's and that's why I'm like I don't want to do anything. Okay, tell me. How do you feel that Gizki did on it? I I think you did I I think I think she did very very well. Very well. I'm going to say I like I left it like my my initial grade was like I think it was like B+. Okay. Yeah. Did very well. That's great. I would take a B+ on pretty much. I'm like [laughter] plus just just for some room so I can give some room for an A later maybe. You know, that's launch code B+, by the way. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Maybe like I mean, it may be like one of those I don't I don't want to be like an IGN 7 out of 10, you know. Oh, don't even Oh my god. That's not bad. I'm [laughter] trying to stay away from that because because here's here's reason. I'm like, I go up and I'm like and they're all excited. Like, no, don't tell me anything. Don't tell me this is important. And she was like running up to people on the games to tell them how to play. They're excited like, "No, you don't have to sell the game. You don't have to sell the game. You You don't have to sell it. You did well." Because I know that sell that sell mentality. I was like, "No, you don't have to sell it to me." Like you're This is also her first lead though. You gota Like she's gonna be so excited for that. I know. Like I understand. I fully understand. But don't tell me. Don't tell me. So like I want I want to see like Okay, I see green is lock. Okay. Sanity is in the room. Good. Green is a ball color. Green. You hold balls. You lock balls. You multiball. You add a ball. Green is lock. Green become the like permanent ball lock color. It isn't. But if you're going to tell me something else, if you're going to teach me another language, teach it to me. You sure about that? Like, think of what other game doesn't use green for like their primary multiball lock. It feels like it's every game, right? But some games don't. Some games, but like at some point it got a kind of like an implied rule. So like that's what I'm saying. Like the ecosystem of pinball has these kind of implied rules that you pull from other games to learn a new game, right? You think so, but sometimes it isn't. [clears throat] Like it took me a while to figure out how to lock a ball on um Jaws till I figured out no we're telling a story on Jaws green now those greens up there are not locking those that green is that green is the is [clears throat] the bounty increase or something ball locks are yellow I was up there like the first few times I'm looking at this green thing and I'm like okay how do you lock the ball no you don't lock a ball we're not locking anything the ball's not going to lock and go anywhere you know forget about the shark not eating the ball I didn't care about that I was like yeah I don't care like is the ball locking anywhere? I was like, no, it's not going to lock. So, it took me a while to transmission my brain like, no, you're making progress to do the chum thing, which then leads to the red shots, which are not jackpots, cuz jackpots are red. No, they're not. Not here. Now, the chum shots are cuz Chum looks red. I hope that was in my head cannon. Okay, so chum is reddish and bloody and whatever and shark and blood and so it's filling the chum meter ready and it's making it red red. Okay, there's the red I can connect and then I do that and then I do a yellow barrel which then I get one yellow barrel and then that's the multiball. So I was like, "Oh, what? I started a multiball already. How? I didn't lock a ball." Like no, you did the thing that started the multiball. We're doing it differently here. Oh, now I understand. two months later. And as you said, the the storytelling element of making it yellow, like similar to the yellow uh whatever floaties that they attach to it is like perfect. Also, on a side note with that shark, if they had made it a ball lock and ate the ball, it would have totally show slowed the game down. Like, you couldn't use the mechanic of like increasing the value of the modes by mashing it. Like, it's just like it so needed to be the bash toy that it is. It's so fine. It's fine. Like, I know the shark's supposed to eat the ball cuz the sharks eat eat things. Okay. I didn't I did not care. It was funny about the It's the newest meme. That's why I was like, you know, hey, does Megatron eat the ball? You know, let's see. [laughter] No, but you bash him in his dong almost, which I love. Save eats the ball if you if you got the money to. Sound wave eats the ball. If you don't, you don't need it. And he does a tummy dump. Tummy dump is maybe the other the piss lake is probably my favorite thing, which I wouldn't stop talking about in my video. The piss lake is probably my favorite stern mode that has ever existed in a game. Yes, there's a magic golden lagoon where a bunch of transformers go up and got get all dippy and get all wet with the urine. Highly recommend checking it out. Fantastic. 10 out of 10. Piss Lake. Anyways, let's go. Uh but let's let's bring it back to you. I knew that. But but see, that's when I was learning how what Jaws was. I was surprised when I was starting to multiply and I didn't know why until I had to switch my entire brain over. I says, "No, right here. Don't follow the normal language you're used to from back in the day. This is completely different. That's why I love Elwin's philosophy because it's just it's just so different than traditional pinball. Try to adjust. Try to try to find some things that you understand and just try to try to adjust and see what how this game is telling you how to play and then you know so I that's why I was definitely a little bit you know hampered by that because I was looking for context clues and I wasn't seeing many of them and things were happening. Do you think modern games are too too deep and too kind of like over complicated for casual players? Probably. I mean, I don't know. I mean, if I really I really have to think about that. But yeah, there's certain things that I don't get that I'm like, I don't know how. I mean, but but then you have that balance like, okay, but for the casual player, I guess I guess maybe it it would be because we're assuming the casual player is not buying the game. Are we too conflicting? The person who buys is casual or not? Are they automatically not casual because they make a purchase? I don't know. That's a good question because somebody walking up in an arcade is is a casual for sure, but if somebody is buying the game, they could still also be a casual player, right? If they're a casual player, but they got Bitcoin money, right? Like [laughter] if they had that auction at that that captain's auction a couple years ago when prices were going through the roof because the people showed up with money out of nowhere and pre- bidding stuff and numbers going out the crazy numbers they're being bidded on and people bidding over the internet. Some not everybody was a you know a I imagine not everybody was an experienced player. Imagine there's some casuals in there but they just bought a game so they automatically experienced. So now they own a game. So that means they own a game. So now that rule set needs to be deep because they own it. So then because they have the they have the chance, they have the privilege, they have the re they have the access to play this game as much as they want as if it were a video game, right? So it needs to be deep so they can find stuff. So this is the conflicting goal, right? If you make if you if you make the game accessible, right, then you can't make it like absurdly deep. But if you don't make it absurdly deep, then the people that are buying it for their home, you know, they want something with like infinite replay value that they can sink potentially years into learning, trying to get to like Final Wizard modes. Those two design philosophies for a pinball machine are not like in alignment. They're conflict. They conflict. And somehow Lyman figured it out, right? True. Back to some games. I mean, I mean, didn't Lyman didn't Didn't Lyman help with Iron Man? Does that in my is that in my little bit? I don't know. It feels like he did. Uh, yes, because he added 10 years later he put an update out for Iron Man, which was crazy. And the only reason I know this is because Serge put together that chart that we were talking about for release uh like update stuff and he said it kind of screwed up his update chart thing because of this one you know 10year post update like update that he did which is crazy cuz like that was in my mind cuz I'm like you know what Iron Man is the sneakiest like underrated like poo pooed when it came out but then tightest riskreward thing but it's not deep but it is but it isn't but it is because you got do or die multiball as the unoptanium but everything is sort of reachableish right and it's the most one more gamiest game like I almost did it it's the it's the I almost did it game and so it's it's things like that like Walking Dead the one more ball addiction is real right yeah like Walking Dead has that you know if only I had did this and that I would have gotten 600 million but I now only have 300 Steve can chat to let the color the color locks go. Like everybody is so sucked into the green lock bald stuff. Well, cuz green is locked. I'm sorry. What? What do you want? Red's jackpot. Green [snorts] is lock, red is jackpot. Why does status, you know, sometime why does a status that's why combos are for generic things. Um and then at that point, and then at that point you can like you can do but if you're going to teach me a different language, then teach it to me. Like okay, turtles taught me that a rainbow shot ends the mode. Okay, they were consistent with that. Great. Turtles Turtles taught me to lube up my [] with extra lube. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that that's another I'm just trying to say a good thing I like about Turtles. So, when I say the reasons I hate it, I can it's balance, you know, the balance in the forest or whatever. So, I don't want to say yes. I want to lead with the good. Yes. Rainbow shot. Turtles end mode. Excellent. Great. I can plan to put the 2x on it and double it. All right. You know, that was well explained. Excellent. So, if you're going to tell me that's what a rainbow shot is, okay. And if is it always that? Good. I love you. Excellent. Thank you. All right. So, that's another thing. That's the thing that you taught me. Okay. In your game, in your language, rainbow equals I finished it. I did it. Okay. Great. You know, so things like that. So, if you're going to change it, fine. You know, just Okay. Um what what uh Avengers new Avengers taught me that the rainbow shot means a super mode. It's super gauntlet or super this or what. Okay. when you when you're when you were doing the rule set for Barios, right? Let's talk a little bit about Barios, right? Do you think that there was I don't think that Barios is like this, but do you think there's a danger where rule sets become kind of too like uh like kind of spreadsheet driven like you know like uh formulaic where it's just like it's not exciting because it's so expected in terms of like what to do? I mean it can be if you don't know anything about the game at all. I mean, if you know about the kind of patterns, you you might, you know, but if you're just stepping up, like I I mean, this is a Barry game. I can't write War in Peace. That would be disrespectful, right? I can't do that. Okay. [laughter] And plus the fact, you know, of what I of what I'm working with. I'm trying to I'm trying to take 10 pounds of barbecue sauce and stuff it in a 5B bottle with that game. That's what I'm saying. Very apt a very apt comparison. That's what I'm doing. Okay. So, I have to make some concessions. have to add some ambitions. You know, I have a 100 pages of ambitions of a rule sheet, you know, literally. Sure. Okay. And so I'm like, well, how much of this can I make sense in 3 minutes? Barios, I think, has some of the best tournament rules. We like I would always pick Burios as a tournament game at Ace Goi. Most of that had to do with the fact that like not a lot of players knew it. But I think that its scoring was balanced in a really pleasant way that it made for and and since it was a underplayed game there, it was easier to kind of like have an advantage on it, which is always an important decision for tournament games. Play the advantage. Absolutely. Play the advantage. But now I tell that advantage I'll tell you my advantage slowly was slowly bleeding away quickly when I I mean I think at fantastic I mean what the fantastic New Robert Englunds game between uh Jason Zer and Carlos de Lord that is that is a video that I keep I mean I had to be played I told him played in single player because I want to be wary of any like ball ball count mishaps that were that are still happening in the July version. So that's why it's single player. I want to make sure there's a finals game or whatever. And so to to see them to see Carlos do what he did, his method and then to see Zer do what he did after like we had a five minute conversation about fireworks multiball. I just told him about it and he just went up and did it for two billion points. And I'm like, you know, that makes me so happy that they they did they proved what I was hoping that you can take multiple paths to the destination. That's what I wanted. I wanted multiple and and I was like, that's what I wanted. This is this is what I wanted. And I and I saw it happen in real time. And that was a that was a pinball moment for me cuz I was like cuz um Carlos did what he did. He got the meat coma sub wizard. I'm like, "Okay, here he comes. He's about to kick ass. this is what he deserves it. He made it the third battle and he's doing he's spreading his playful X and he's doing he did that on purpose cuz he knew about that and he [clears throat] put that on and then Jason went up and he did a couple things and he went right for fireworks multiball started it kicked the crap out of it but he lost by 50 million literally because cuz he didn't start a mode before it and so on any of those bonus points he would have had never happened. I told him, I was like, you know, if you started the saucer mode, you were the one going away because you would have got points. You would have got points for every saucer you shot in Fireworks Multiball in your bonus and you would have blown it out and that's why you didn't win. Talking about contemporary, you you'd mentioned contemporary rules in terms of layers. Like I think that's really what is different about modern pinball than the '9s and early 2000s is that there are multiple paths to points that are all like good, right? It's not just the one trick. The idea of the onetrick pony both in tournament and in like single ball linear kind of like pinball play is gone. Hoping that's what I was hoping for. I was hoping I was hoping that's what I was hoping is as as I'm up 2:30 in the morning, you know, stressing myself out trying to say, "Okay, is this going to make sense? Is this unbalanced? I got this playful ex that is looking at me that I need." But it's it can be it's a poison pill, but it's also it's needed, but it's great, but it's also poison. I got to be careful, you know, with it. It it's it's like playing with fire, literally. You know, figuratively. literally and figuratively. Um, so I'm looking at that. I'm like, you know, are there any spots where they can really exploit stuff? But if they do exploit it, they kind of deserve it because it's not too hard to do, but is it the thing to do? As long as there's multiple multiple things to do, that's still good. You know, things like that. [laughter] And these are things I'm going in my mind and I'm like, okay, I just want people to play it and and I just hope that Bill from accounting can tell me what he's doing when he's playing it, you know? So, I put the game in front of the game. Hey, um marketing guy person, you know, uh somebody from the factory, please come up play game. I'm not going to tell you anything. You got to have you got to have info from all levels of know your first game. I'm not gonna tell you anything. Okay, please. No. Okay, then. Okay. Can you explain to me what that is? Is there anything you weren't going for? Nuclear Black says that if you watch the old Williams promos that they actually the selling point of the games was these linear rule sets, which is crazy. Well, it's because well, linear does but didn't have that extra like badness attached to it. Like also, it meant quarters to a certain degree. I mean, because they were marketing these games to operators, not home like buyers. Yeah. Well, there's not bad. I mean, it's road show. You're trying to go across the country. I mean, there's the line, you know? Okay. I want to get AC. I made it this far. Guess what else is linear? Video games back at that time, right? I mean, [laughter] it's the linear is linear linear, right? And now look at open world games. The the idea of choice and having it still be uh like a valid path is I think the modern philosophy for all sorts of things outside of even pinball in terms of digital entertainment. early against five is for certain modern games to be linear. I mean, you know, I mean, sure, I like Congo's linear scoring. It can be linear. You linearly go through the map and then you linearly go through here. The abundance of '90s games that are just like terrible films, but excellent pinball machine. It's just like everything for like, well, I guess Water World's not a great pinball machine, but you know, you got Shadow Congo. Yeah. But you know, every every time I want to sink the D's, you know, I have him say, "Yeah, sync the D's." Oh, he said D's. Oh, that's funny. He said D. But, uh, yeah. So, I mean, it's it's linearity is not bad. I mean, I can go to Godzilla and be like, "Hey, if you don't follow the path, you kind of screwed up, man." You know, Joe Degenerate has a has a question. He's demanding that I ask you. He's not really demanding. He's doing it very polite. He wants to ask what your philosophy on what a true jackpot should mean. Oh, a jack Oh, you mean Oh, yeah. I talked with him about it. Yeah. Um, a jackpot. Like, a jackpot is not a shot award. Like, okay, a jackpot is a progressive that you put something in. Like, you know, if you win a jackpot, right, in the lottery, it's cuz everybody put their dollars in and you won that part. That's the pot part of I love I love I love building jackpool jackpots, like you're saying. I love those. That's what it is. No, because that's what a jackpot is. If you're not doing that, then it's just a shot award, right? Like just don't don't have all the shot lit and then be like jackpot jackpot. Jackpot. That's so true. You You were so true. Holy [] This is mind. This is mind-blowing. Okay. The Adams family, right? It started at 10 million and then you hit the vault and they put a million in there and then they put another million. That's a jackpot. Yeah. And cash huge building. Huge. You put stuff in, you built it from the bumpers from all game, right? It jackpots are progressive. Yeah. Right. All jackpots should be progressive in some way. Now, you have some and other games other games that seem like it's not doing it right, but and right. I'm saying right like I'm right, you know, according to my philosophy, right? I'm saying right in the internet way. You know, you're it's a bad take. It's a good take that way. Um take Spider-Man, right? Spider-Man, you add to the jackpot in a in a progressive way. It's just spenders and targets. You don't notice it. But then when you get to the jackpot and black suit, it's jackpot, jackpot, jackpot, jackpot, jackpot. But it looks like the same value. But no, it's because you put stuff in it. You just you didn't notice it, but it happened. All right. So those are the ones that ride the line of true jackpot versus shot award is Spider-Man. Spider-Man's right there. I dig it, you know. And so that's the line to me. That's the dividing line. That was Joe. That was a good Go ahead. Sorry. No, I was just saying Joe, that was a great question. I I'm glad he forced us to bring that up. [laughter] Thank you, Joe. Like, that's what the jackpot and so like for Barry's game, I really went off the I really went off the chain with that cuz I really like progressives because I like progressive jackpots cuz I like, you know, the way slot machines do that. Okay. But Shanosaur brings up a good point. What's a super jackpot now in this scenario? It depends on the super jackpot needs to be larger than jackpot, right? It has to be that checks out for sure. Now, now of course because sometimes that doesn't happen. Okay. Sometimes doesn't happen that a super is not more than a jack. Okay. And and the super can be I mean it needs to be more. I mean it would be great is if if it were a cumulative part of all the jackpots you put in, right? And that's what makes it super. And if you want to go to mega and ultra, it's just that iteration on top. So there you go. There's tons of ways to kind of fit a super jackpot into that structure. Yeah. It just becomes a super Oh my my jackpots were 300, 400, 500, 600. That means your super is 3 plus 4 plus 5 plus 6 and sitting there. We're going down a bad rabbit hole here. Nuclear blackas wants to know, what about a super duper mega extreme jackpot? We could just keep adding words to jackpot to do this. As long as you're using the previous progressives into the new award, I like it because I know where all the points came from, so I can explain it. And so that's why I went really ham with Barry's gang because I'm like, "Oh man, I really want to I really want to I wonder about want this concept of the unoptanium, but I want it to be always in your face and always accessible at any time. How do I do that?" Meabu. The meabu slot machine. It's always sitting there and it's 12 billion12 million dollars and it only takes $3 to win, right? And you step up and no, your $3 just went into that jackpot up there. And so like I want that. And so I I I want [clears throat] that. So that's kind of where the the pit master jackpot comes from. And then you get also like massive dopamine rush, you know, the entire it's sitting there and and then I I I want everything I want it to go in. I want points from your game to go into that, you know, and so that's the endopenium. But then for tournaments, I wanted to only track yours, you know, that's what that we didn't get to. Like I wanted to get to the point like everyone had their own pit master and tournament so that you couldn't like it wouldn't be game to game like Whitewater, right? That balance game. Yeah. Right now it's game to game like Whitewater, you know? Right. But I want I want to be like if you're playing a three-player game in a tournament, everyone has their own pit master. And so I'm like, no. Okay, now that I have this, how do I get the others? Okay, now I can show someone a jackpot in their face all the time. And it's the recipe jackpot, recipe awards, and the multiball jackpot. They're always in your face. And there's the riskreward staring at you all the time. Do you want to try it now? It's at a million. I mean, you could two million or how about two and a half million. It's like, you know, it's at 2 million now. Your friend started at 4 million. You know that cuz you saw it. I'm for sure a million. This this shot, this orange shot to cook the recipe right here is going to add 6503 653,240. I know because I see it. Do I want to add that now or do I want to go for the lock now? And you're sitting there with a ball on your flipper thinking about that. And once you're doing it, I got you. Now I got you. That's the gotcha moment where you're fully sucked in. Um, and that can happen two minutes into the game. That's what I want. I want that. I got you. And so that's what I want at any point. Fully sucked in. Uh, speaking of sucking, uh, Mullock Purr wants to know whose dick do you have to suck to get a Golden Girls pinball machine? You'd have to talk to Jack Danger about that. I think he's a full advocate of the Golden Girls. That needs to happen quickly while the while the fires are hot, man. You know, going to start losing voice talent. I mean, we're down to like How many Golden Girls do we have left? I mean, man, they're not they're not not there not a lot of match game shows you can get Betty Voices Betty Jim Weisz voice from, you know, if you want to do that. Yeah. Going to have to train an AI model or something. Uh, speaking of other things that suck, let's talk about Deeproot. Yeah, that sucked. Um, yeah, Voldemort. I would say Deep Route doing this show. I should say Voldemort as my key frame for Do you think Deeproot would have made the Golden Girls pinball machine? And maybe I mean, you know, with the amount of rule set that I wrote for that, maybe. I mean, who knows what other licenses we went for, but I mean, there were so many. There were so many that I had literally written rule sets for, which I know which ones I can talk about because I do have the print out. I did my research. So, which ones I can talk about? For people that don't know, let let me crash course them. So, Deep Root was uh Mueller, a non-pinball person, Robert Mueller, who had a idea that he wanted to create a visionary pinball company. And uh he's a guy what he had a law degree essentially like this was like the most non-imminal person but yet but yet he also has wizard mode media company and deep like there was other things that you find out in the bankruptcy documents that later like oh wizard mode media is a thing oh then they had this thing then they had this thing it's like it's a different subsidiary of it and but it's not the animation studio because that's different those guys I collaborated with them that's different oh I don't Oh, and oh, let's I guess let's put parenthesis allegedly in front of the whole conversation because we don't know. Uh, had John Papadiuk, they had J-pop. They were working on Raza, which was a retro zombie adventure land. They had Dennis. Had Norman. Had Dennis. Norman. Like I'm I'm juggling marbles in my mouth. So, but then it it collapses. There's a huge lawsuit. all the assets kind of get sold off and you got an email like after the fact or saw that there was like a a lawsuit for like $53 million. I read I read the news about the 52 million, right? And so I'm literally like at home. I'm about to write the next part of the rule of the rules on my website. I'm on I'm on fun with bonus. I'm on the publishing page. Okay. I was like, okay, I'm building on on uh this fact. Okay. Because previously what? Let me go back in the timeline a tad. Right. Wait, we got to do a sound effect. Ready? Yeah. That's good enough. And then so I'm like, "Okay, we're in development. Okay, we're we're making progress. I'm doing testing. I'm literally like testing. What happens when you kill a 100 zombies? Does it loop the number correctly or whatever?" I'm into that minutia, right? How's the scoring? How's this work? Okay. And so I'm like, "Okay, we're far enough along where this is this is going to start to happen soon." So I want to get some information out there that is like stuff that has been done. I don't want to talk about what we're going to do. I hate Gunonna. No more guns. Well, you told me you wanted to put it out there so people would have a fair chance. You didn't want to have an advantage in tournament. Like how awesome is that? I remember that. Yes. That was that was part of it. I was like, this was the this was the argument I was bringing to the administration. you know, Mueller and people who were there like, "Okay, I want permission to start releasing information about what's on the game so that by the time it comes out, people can see what's on it and I have no unfair advantage." And so, and also people can see it and if they're interested, they'll look at it. If they're not, they'll just wait till it comes out or whatever. And so I started writing like I started writing a a side story in the perspective of the princess character how and the princess of the player like and also in of the player. There's this one player called the player capital T and capital P. That's you right or me. That's the player is at the same time the greatest player in the world and also a casual player. They're the mysterious player we're trying to market to. That's that person. It's the person that's in my role sets called the player. the player will, the player can, the player has the option to. It's so known as the player. All right. So, so I'm writing all this stuff over, you know, and and try who's Ned, who are zombies, whatever. How's the pin bar work? What are your items and everything? Here's what we have in the game sections, all this stuff. Okay, so I have all that written because I asked permission to do it, you know? I was like, yes, this is what we want to do. So, let me do that. Okay, got permission. So, anything that's on my website, which shall remain for as long as I'm paying for it, just go search Raza. Search, go to funwithbonus.com, search RAZA, you will see a list of stuff. And that what was that is what was on the game at the time that I heard or that I heard the 50 about the 52 million. All right. [clears throat] Because I'm literally sitting down on my desk ready to write the next section when I read it. And so now I'm like, uhoh. So yeah, it looks like it's here too. Look. So immediately the last the very latest page should be Sans dunking a basketball talking about get dunked on that other one. And there's a funny there's a funny post about Patrick Euing or something, you know, because I'm talking about what get dunked on mode is because I thought it was funny and I put Sans there because it's an inspiration to him, right? [laughter] But it's the ref it's the reference that's not mentioned in the game, but it's like that. So that should be the last post up there. And so I'm sitting there at my at my desk and I'm like, uh, well, I don't know. Well, after being, you know, the shock of it, whatever. I've processed that for like five seconds. So like, well, do I should I continue writing this? Is my website evidence in whatever this would be? I don't know the law, so I don't. So that's why I stopped. So cuz you don't want to get sucked into a lawsuit that has absolutely nothing to do with you. like you're a creative person trying to do creative things while this Ponzi scheme dude is like dumping this company into oblivion. So that's literally why I stopped there. That's why I stopped cuz I'm like oh I okay let you know I'm not going to do that today. I'm going to you know call my family and talk about some adult decisions I need to make about this you know and so that's why it stops there. So, so, [laughter] so I'm like, okay. I like I'm in I'm in a house in San Antonio trying to pay a mortgage. Let's figure this out. All right. Um, so that that's why I stopped there. So, that will remain there as part of pinball history. I was wondering what was going to happen with DPX. They were going to come up with Raza. So, that was my next question. Is the is the game that that Dutch Pinball exclusives put out any anything similar to the game that you worked on? I have no idea. I was not consulted. I don't know. So I that's why I was going to be interested to see okay is they're going to change stuff because they're not going to have the pin bar so they have to do something else right pin bar is not an LCD screen it's one thing with the bar that made it awesome was because oh it can be like it makes multiple decision making easy cuz it's like touching a screen like you know like I had my shop you know I had my shop before Mandalorian so like Mandalorian came out and I was like man that's [clears throat] cool like that would look cool to get on a pin bar Mandalorian did something like that I had a shop too but it doesn't count cuz it didn't it didn't come Oh, we saw the shop at What's Brewing once? So, you saw it. I don't know where the video is. Got to got to ask people did it, but I like Yeah, you just touch it. Bam. You buy it. And then if you don't want it, you don't buy it. Oh, I don't want it. I do want it. I want this power. I don't want. So, you can see all the powerups on the website that were there. Like all the powerups that were there. Pinball really like expanded the amount of decision making that you could make in pinball machine. And that was good. But the bad part is will it pass the beer test? And it seems like it did. It feels like it did pass the beer test from what I saw, you know, but do you trust it? I don't know. So, I can see the person sometimes, but it I don't know if it passes the beard test. I mean, it I mean, sure, you dump thing on it, it was fine. I mean, according to what I saw, but I feel like making a seal so that you could still have a hypatic touch go through is not possible. I feel like it was working like it was fine. But again, would people trust that? I mean, you're trying to put this in the bar. You don't know. Everybody puts their drinks on pinball machines and you're and you're a new company, not you, but like Deeproot itself is like a new company. Like there's a certain amount of like uh brand kind of proving you have to do I think as any kind of startup, but you're selling a machine, you know, $10,000ish, you know, depending on whatever the price point was. 58.99. Wow, that's such a reasonable price. I have the print out machine that never happened. I have the I I have the print out just in case it was you know I just wanted to talk. Yeah. No, I just wanted to know what I could talk about. So like if anything that was released on the this weekend pinball post I can talk about so I have it right. So that's why I know what rule says I can talk about. So I'm like okay. Yeah. Um so yeah. So that's one reason why I missed the pin bar is because Yeah, man. I could I could have your status report looking at you the whole time and you don't have to look away from it cuz it's right here. your hand. You're already kind of looking at your flippers anyways. It's a much more logical spot for like UI interface player stuff, right? And so I can just Oh, I can just look at it. And there it is. Cool. Okay. Anybody have any problem seeing your playful legs from here? No. Good. Is it uncomfortable in any way? Good. All right. Good. That's great. So I can have this part of the screen for other information like you killed a zombie. You killed a zombie duck. You did this. Okay. So all right. It gives so much flexibility. The magnet save is right there on the button, you know. Boom. Magnus save. Done. Touch it. Done. Hold it if you want. Touch it. Worked. Okay. Flung it out like like Black Knight or whatever. It just moves back in. Easy. Nice. And then the shot log. Oh, you Let's have a shot log that that shows everything you ever shot in the whole game. Here's a whole list of everything. Points and everything. Oh, you shot a 20. Wonderfully innovative. It's just such a tragedy that this person's lack of Yeah, they the team the Turner team. Shout outs to Turner, the Turner team, you know, Turner Pinball who were working with them at the time who were doing the programming side. Uh some of the programming side, most of the programming side. Um yeah, I mean, and they were like, and I was like, "Hey, make sure that when you do a spinner that you don't show 47 10point spinners that you show the 10 rolling up in the same line up to 470." And there it is. Yes. So, it's not 4710. It's one line going spinner 10 470. Cuz that makes sense. And then underneath it, things are still happening, bumper, whatever. And then it's gone. Oh, the playful X. Put the Playful X next to it. So it can say, but those details are important so that you don't get overloaded in a way that is just like I mean like Apple has made their entire business about trying to figure out how to simplify information and present it in a way that isn't, you know, whether they're successful or not is a different conversation, right? So this is I mean this is this stuff was making me hype. I'm like, okay, this is really cool. this might be a good thing to really help people look more at the game instead of, you know, the screen and then the screen they're looking at is convenient. Okay, good. [clears throat] And so that's part of my reason why I was hyped about it. I was like, great. But then, I mean, there there are definitely drawbacks. It's an extra piece of equipment. Uh, do people damage it? Again, the rear test. I hope [laughter] so. There's there's pluses and minuses with it, but hey, you give me an extra screen space, I'm going to try and use it as efficiently as I can. And I I thought we did. I I thought I did pretty well. And I mean, hey, you I I just I just love that I could like show you your status report live [clears throat] so you could see it. Like if instead of going to the status report, you could just swipe up to the status report if you want. How annoying is it to have to flip through pages and pages of information just to get to the one thing that you actually want to see? But you have But you have to if you want to find it because there's not enough screen space to do it. So like, oh man, I could just leave it there if you want. Yeah, just leave it there. Oh, this is great. So I can just see, oh, there's my bonus coming up live in real time. Yeah. So I know exactly what my bonus is. You have all these creative people working on innovative concepts and you just you're unlucky because the people that are running it and have the money are just not in the same alignment with that. And this carries on because it might possibly Yeah. It might possibly be the person running the money. I mean, let's put a name to it. It's Robert Mueller. Like we don't need to shy away from this. This man like destroyed this company and a lot of people's faith in like pinball startups. But then, you know, let's talk about American Pinball 1.0, right? you you're like the most unlucky person in pinball. Like you have all these ideas and you keep getting involved in people's companies that seem like they really have the best interests of the creatives at heart, but then this [] comes out and it's like, you know, I mean, but American people is a different situation. I mean, you know, how many of you know what a Vani is? Do you know what it is? What's it? What is it exactly journalists? What's a Vani? Okay. So the reason why if it's the fact that you don't know that name is the issue, right? There are people being blamed. Some of which are who are in this chat who are not it's not their fault, right? Is [laughter] there fired me. You know what I'm [laughter] saying? It's like that. But I mean it's like that's the issue when these nobody wins when these kind of situations happen. And obviously, American Pinball has been repurchased by Brian, I think is his name. Yeah, they got funding. I'm like, come on, American. They got funding now. I'm like, you know what? This is looking good. Okay, let's see. Come on, show me something good. I'm I'm ready. I'm getting hyped again. Cuz again, they got funding. They're not fighting with another company who's I mean, that's a whole show with itself, you [laughter] know, for sure. Well, I mean, I'm very curious about Cuphead. We're here in creative. We're here below the line trying to figure out, you know, trying to make sure to get a game out at a reasonable price. I mean, h this is why we have live streams, okay? This is why live streams should it's okay that live streams are three hours, okay? Because you get into things and you talk about things and things go into other things and you get to talk about other things in a slightly hazard, disorganized way and it makes sense at the end, whatever. Yeah. I mean, I feel like we're slotting it in. We're like, we got a structure going. But it's fine as even if we didn't cuz you'll get to it next week or next time or whatever. It's fine. Well, you heard it, Chad. You That means you agreed to come back on my podcast. I'm taking that's how I'm interpreting that. Yes, I do agree to come back to your podcast. But you can slide it into a clip later. I mean, that's just how internet discourse works. But I mean, just giving an example. I mean, this with Barry's game is my most personal example. you know, I'm trying to, you know, carry through Barry's uh vision and the team is doing it. We're all working hard. The team creators, we're all in the vision and all great everybody. I'm not I'm not going to name names, but I could name all of them, you know, like because I know them all and they're all great and I hope that and and they're all doing great things and they're with the program and they're and they're it's helping me. They're making sense of what I'm saying. I'm making sense. They're telling me where I'm not making sense. They're pulling me, reigning me back in when I should. There is a huge There's a huge issue on Pinside that you are not credited for Barry's Barbecue. But you should be on the credit list for Barry O's Barbecue. If anybody at Pside is watching this, fix that [] Okay. I mean, hey, I'm the one that I'm the one that gets the bottles thrown at me when people don't like it. So, I'll take the credit. But I also get the credit live at shows when they talk to my face. So, that's good. Sure. But your name is on the playfield. Yeah. Well, it's on there twice. So, and I wanted to make sure it was I wanted to make sure that it was not at the head of the table cuz that's where Barry's name goes. And I said it definitely does need to be second because I got Dennis there. So, Dennis doing his with his contribution should be second. I'm privileged to have both their names there along anywhere near mine on a thing. Sure. But my name is on is on rules. So, I'm going to be there twice. So, it doesn't matter. And I also want to make sure that Ryan McQuay's name is there for the bash locks at least for all his help that he did because I want to make sure he gets credit for it. But on the topic of credit, like games don't generally have who worked on them printed on the playfield anymore. So it is it is on the manufacturers and it is on the internet at large to kind of document this. Otherwise, the people that are associated with these projects will only be in stories and that's not okay. That's not okay. There's too many people that work on projects and it's more and more for like as pinball evolves and gets larger that if you are working on a project you should be credited on it. We need the record to be correct. That's why that's why Ryan Aquade is there. Okay. I need the record to be correct. All right. So, uh just as going back a little bit in the timeline there. I was like we're dealing with with Barry's game and I'm trying to you know respect the vision and you know Barry Barry passed. I'm trying to so at what point cuz Barry Barry passed mid development or towards the end of the release like when did when did Barry die like beginning of cuz like okay we're at Voldemort's okay I'm hire I'm going to be hired in American I'm moving up to Chicago from from San Antonio I'm not bringing my games because I god I can't I don't want to move them again I so I sell them off so I can afford to live in Chicago because Chicago costs so much money to live So, I don't have any games in here. Now, I actually do have one game. I have a Elorado Seed of Gold that I'm holding for a friend that I hope is in the most the most drop targets in pinball, right? For me, because I need I need I need to work on my aim. So, that works. That's great for me. Um so, um so [clears throat] I'm hired an American. Barry is hired an American. He's getting his stuff straight out. We got he's got his health insurance out so he can get his cancer treatment cuz that was being wonky, whatever. Making sure that's taken care of. And then there was the the thing with within that treatment where we had the issue. I don't want to get too far with but that's where it happened like there was within the somewhere in this cancer treatment something happened not well and that's where I'm struggling to hear you but something something happened something happened within the treatment I believe that's this that's what happened is within that the treatment he was having to you know be good because he was enthusiastic. I mean he's going to work with me Dennis's going to work with Ryan. What was what was Barry's previous game? I mean, had it been a while since he had released or worked on a game? Well, he was working on the game that was going to be after Raza, okay, which is food truck. That was the next That's not a secret. That's one of the games I can talk about. I got to know right there. [laughter] Right. So, he was working on that at at De Brute. So, yeah, that was going to be his next one. And so, yeah, he I'm [clears throat] I'm talking with him about the game. We're talking about rules or whatever. Uh I am uh literally here in this residence where I'm at now, you know, with no furniture talking to him on the phone, you know, he's going to come up and then it happens and he's no longer with us, you know. So, and at that point, I furiously try this is early in development, okay? Because, you know, I I at that point it was very hazard with the rules, trying to figure out what it was going to be, okay, whatever. I fearlessly try to write down everything I was going to talk to him about, right? I don't want to forget everything. If I forget anything, I will just not forgive myself. So, okay, let me just Okay, make sure I get everything. No, no, no. Okay, whatever is really hazard is disorganized. Whatever. It's very disorganized. I just get it all down. After the grieving process happened, okay, I'm just I'm just in the in the office I had for two solid hours, maybe more. I don't know how long it took. I'm just writing. What was the corporate like vibe? Like, you lose someone who's such a like pinnacle part of pinball history. I mean what? Well, for the first few hours, I didn't know cuz I was a question in the room grieving and then writing the rules. So, that was where I was doing. So, I might have looked like a hermit, you know, really being sponded about it, which I was, but then I had to come back to being a professional and be like, "Okay, let's carry this forward, you know, let's and let's get the team behind it." Which the team was behind it. So, it's not like that was an effort or like they were going to do it. You got Barry's friends, they were working here. Okay. You got so many people that Barry's worked with, all right, that have worked with on other games that are literally working with it. Yeah, they're behind it 100%. And it becomes Barryo's barbecue challenge instead of the barbecue challenge. It becomes Barry's game. That was going to be my next question was Barry's name on the title before his passing. No, no, it was not. No, it was like it was like fishtails. Yeah. White water barbecue for sure. You know, it's going to be like a a name that's like a a like a genericish name. And it's not a license like fishtails is, you know, it's not a fish is not a license. I'm a huge advocate of of IPs. You lose the you get rid of all the [] of having to deal with an IP holder that's like you can or can't do this. It's like, you know, King Barbecue's not going to come down and tell you what you can't do with brisket. Like, [] off, King Barbecue. But what you trade off is mind share, you know, so everyone knows what this license is. So you get that mind share at the beginning. And so that's what the license is for. So I And IPs mean a lot to people. I'm blown away by how many people are obsessed with like they'll just buy a game on I mean look at the success of Pokemon. It's a perfect example. Yeah, it's guaranteed that that thing was guaranteed. Now people like like Pokemon's not my thing. Pokemon doesn't matter. Pokemon doesn't care. It is not your thing. Okay. Pokemon does not care that you Pokemon's big money bucks doesn't care. Pokemon does not care about you. Okay. It doesn't. No, [laughter] not even a little. So, you know, so and and it was it was during that process where like I had my haphazard foundation of rules for the game and then where I started to try to figure out how could I make this a tribute to Barry? How could I try to represent his other games in this game but not be too obvious but still make it work? Because you can't just stable two things together. It's still got to work. how can I do it and make it work? And so that's where it kind of happened where in that process of me being suppressed trying to figure out, okay, what can I do to make this work? And it's still disorganized. I still there was still a period where I had like three different rules. There was some rules for three different games melted into one. And I finally melted that together into one thing that made sense, you know? I mean, I I miss we can get to a a screen share thing. This is a screen share moment, actually. Yeah, let's do it. It looks like I'm checking the Twitch stream. It looks like we're way behind in terms of broadcast. So, I think chat so far. Yeah, we are, which is crazy. I don't know how that happened, but as long as you're still hearing us well. As long as the VAD is coming through, right? Okay. Yeah. Right. Like, we're good. Just just have to check it later. But yeah, let's let me know when you've got it pulled up and I'll switch over. I'll switch over to the full screen. Let me make sure that I am in the right spot. I might have to find it. Sorry. But like we there was a presentation that um we did in a couple of the shows like I think we did one at Fantastic. We did one at Texas Film Festival when Barry's game was coming out and so that's that. So let me find it now. I I had it up and now the tab has disappeared. Where'd you go? Did I close it? All right. [clears throat] Give me a give me a moment as I find where it went. [singing] Okay. Is this it? Yay. Okay. Yes, here it is. Okay. Let's drag it into the middle of the screen and then let's share properly. All right. Select three. Okay. Chad, if you ask your questions and get to this, it's going to be uh way in the future at this point. [laughter] But that's okay. Right. That's how it is. So, like I see someone asked, "Where's my credit for Panther one at GTF?" It's there. I'm in the credits. It's there. It's It's We got our credits in there. We actually do have credit there. All the people who did their their cameos in um Galactic Tech Force with all that pilot characters. Yeah. We're in there. So, okay. So, do you see do you see the presentation? I got you pulled up. You're full screen. We're looking at Barryio's barbecue challenge American 2024. Right. So, this was this was the uh presentation that we gave talking about, you know, there was Carhop and and how why we couldn't name it car hop. was obviously a car hop name and then the process of the inserts going in and then Ryan McQuaid doing it on VP VPX and making that work and showing that to the team the team flipping it already in like no time at all he did this he was so good with that and you know us showing things of things we needed to move things that really wouldn't work like where the where I wish the spinners were as opposed to where they ended up because you know I couldn't do that because it's a different spinner and so whatever um But yeah, here's some more VPX stuff. I mean, I went through this way too quickly, but No, that's okay. Well, I mean, we're not really doing a presentation on barios, but seeing into behind the behind the curtain, but like here's here's here's me doing initial, you know, screen stuff. So, what I don't want to see on the screen and stuff. Okay. So, here we go. So, let me get to the end. So, here's like the shout outs to the other games. See? And so these are the games that I can really put like a strong enough shoutouts that are on they're on the playfield in the rules or on the screen somewhere. Cool. That you can pick out that were like a part of Barry's career like you know space shuttle we got the lock space station procedure phoenix the the name of the grill is the iron phoenix and then the grill fixed targets are in the Phoenix position. Barraor for the top lanes with the with the stack top lanes. Fire literally says fire on the inlanes, right? And then save my baby back ribs and all that. What's the Doctor Who? Save my baby. Doctor Who is multiple. First of all, you have the playful exit ramp on the right which goes from 1.5x up to four. That's from Doctor Who. Doc, you also have um the boss chef lanes like the uh the No, actually, no, no, not the boss chef lanes. the barbecue pit. One of the skill shot powerups is to make barbecue pit easier. So, what it does is if you hit one, it spots another one like Dr. One. That's one. So, you got And then you also have uh if you complete the boss lanes at the top, it gives you like uh it spots you two spots up the playfield legs first shot and not just one. And that's Doctor 6. Huh. You see? Cool. So, but if you didn't know that, you wouldn't care. You just know. Okay. No, but it's still so cool that these like moments exist. It says Playfield ramp X upgrade on the on the screen. So, you know, oh, I got the Playfield X upgrade. Oh, it went up there quickly. That's all you know, [laughter] right? But if you know the behind the scenes, now you know why why now you know why I put that in there, right? So, uh, so there's multiple shout outs to that. You got Oh, yeah. Space Shuttle has the grid, the 5x3 grid, right? And with the bonus, right? That's Space Shuttle and spell. It can spell letters. It counts down when the mode does it from 9876543210. Sure. Right. I got to ask what the Bam's Dracula one is. That's like one of my favorite games of 90s for sure. Okay. So, Ram Stoker's Dracula. Okay. So, first of all, the position of the target banks, the position of the ramps arguably, but also the big one is if you push your grills too hard, like if you're overheating your grills, like you use the bumpers too much, right? What happens is a hurry up mode that's like the the bats mode on Dracula. So like you know you hit 15 switches and then your bats go away and then you get the bonus but you get that bonus right that that's what happens and so you get that bonus on the screen and you get to keep the value of your overpowered uh bumpers instead of losing it. If you lose it, you your grills break and then you and then you break down and then you go back down a level like you don't lose points, you just break down your grill so you can't increase as fast because what happens is the bumpers can get to a point where they be can they can become gamebreaking. So player me is like great score points. Rules me is like I got to reel that in. And so that's what that mode is. But if you break me, if you pass me, you deserve it. You get to break the game a little bit more until they break some more. So I'm always pressing like they're overheated again. So trying, you know, I'm break I'm trying to break you back down. But if you don't get broken down, then you can blow the game up. So that's one of the little bit of an explos you have in there. So there you do. You think that any every game should be able to be blown up, right? Like I feel like a lot of Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, yeah, why not? I mean, yeah. I mean, you can look at it and see if there's an issue. I mean, if there's a really bad issue, no. I mean, but I mean, where do you draw the line between scoring exploit and blowing the game up? Uh, how easy is it for someone else to do? All right. Like, how what's the pro what's the procedure on someone else doing it? Is it lucky for someone else to do it? Uh, you know, like for example, let me come off of this because we're Yeah. Uh, let me unshare stuff here. Okay. Okay, there we go. We'll I'll share other things maybe when we get to it. But I think maybe my line is the snake thing on Deadpool. That's like the boundary line. Like there's an issue there in my opinion with the there's a skill factor in that definitely. Wasn't the snake like an accidental like side effect of the playfield layout and they were like let's make this a rule. Yeah, it's an accidental for a huge playfulness that lasts a long time, right? They're like, "Oh, like I love it." And then I don't and I'm like, "There's a way you can do that to get around it by just using the target itself." Sure. And then the ramp, too, but I'm not on the clock, so I'm not going to say because no one's paying me for it. So, um, yeah. So, that I think that's like a boundary line there. It's like, yeah, you blow up Deadpool by getting fivex playfield and destroying and and then looking at the game the wrong way. Yeah. How easy is it for someone else to get there? You know, there's arguments either way. There's like a three-hour debate in that in there. [laughter] And so, well, we have we have some questions from the past. Isn't that cool? They're like time traveling questions. Questions from the past. Uh, one one of these is just a straight out compliment to AP Games, which it's during your era, so that's great. They're just saying that they're it's disappointing that all of they get a lot of hate because they're not IPs that people know, but that the games are just solid. Um I really like uh the Magician one, Houdini. That's that's a really fun game. I like Houdini. The shots a little bit too tight. Oh yeah, they are so narrow. They're literally the width of the ball. Like you you could you couldn't even slide a business card past it. But just make sure make sure it's balanced and make sure you backhand more things. Make sure you're back. If you can backhand the lock, your game is balanced because there's a little cut in there that helps it go in, but it's still hard. I'm not saying it's easy. No, no. Okay. [laughter] No, no, no. But I mean, but the wizard mode on Houdini makes me mad. I, you know, that needs to be changed. That's why I was hoping that Houdini would get like some sort of remastering. Well, I mean, it got a release with the new art package from Franch, but I don't think it came with any code updates. No, I was hoping a reimagining was going to be that, you know. Has anybody reached out to you about potential code updates for the what would you what do you refer to like to the American Pinball first generation again? Is that like 1.0? Like what what would you call that? No, I just I don't know. I don't have a separation. I'm just saying the time I was there. I don't know. Is do you think has American even approached you or talked to you about any potential updates for games that you had been involved with? I mean they're saying they're going to do Galactic update that needs to be worked on. even though there were improvements on it which were cool, still need to put that anti-timeout thing in the in the in the timer um uh for tournaments. And so is is American Pall actively updating their their original roster? Like are you working with them still or No, no, I am not. Um I've I've talked with Mr. Vincent. We we had a conversation at for a while. We talked about games. We talked about reimagining. [laughter] I've heard I heard that word before everybody else did. So they are wasting they are wasting your talents by not bringing you back on board for the new games. I'm saying and so I would I'm saying I would be open to it. I would just have to make sure that my responsibilities are clearly delineated, clearly defined because I spread myself too thin again and I ended up doing like seven, eight different things. I mean like by the time I was done there, I was doing like game design because of circumstance, rules design, marketing, sales, QA, game testing, uh quality assurance, the live stream production, and yeah, that's eight, dude. That's too many hats. And then like and then like whatever subdivisions came with that that naturally happened, you know? So yeah. So So unbelievable. That was part of it. So I'm willing to do and that's cuz I'm just trying to make this thing work. You like come on, let's go. Let's go. I know we don't have a lot of time. You know, I know, you know, Amtron went public. So for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for us. I know what that means. Come on, let's go. So uh and so yeah. So yes, I just just to put it out there. Yes, I would like to be working for a pinball company. That would be cool. I just want want to make sure that I can continue to be as honest and forthcoming as I always am. Sure. No matter who I'm working for. If you're a pinball company and you don't have a person doing good rules, what are you doing? Get you get you a Steve Bowen right away. I need to be able to still have my website. I need to be able to still objectively comment on games, including our own. I need to be a And I need have these things need to I need to still have my integrity still needs to be intact. Can we let's address that because that's something that you know when I started working at pinball I also was just like this is a non-negotiable. Like the community respects people that provide honest opinions. Nobody wants to hear someone blowing smoke up their ass about how their product is this that or the other thing if it's not true. And you can't hide behind like evidence, right? Like if if a game has a problem, like you just have to acknowledge it. or if something's just not fun, like okay, like it it's not the end of the world. You like what are you doing by lying to try to sell more games? It just doesn't work. Like that's just not my not my jam. Preaching to the choir. I mean trans I know transparency is a dangerous word in creative thing. But but transparency is also one of the most important words nowadays on the internet. Everybody wants transparency. It's trans transparency gives you more of that human factor because they know, you know, that's one of the things that live streams like this are better are are viewed more cuz people want oh, there's transparency. You don't have time to produce the stuff and whatever stuff. That's why I love doing it live. You can't you can't dodge questions and everything that comes out of your mouth is like permanently on the internet. Which is another thing. It's like people also have to watch watch the part of watching everybody saying stuff and just jumping on people for saying a thing. Oh, who's that in the thing? So, you're a bad I Oh, maybe it was it was off the cuff. Maybe they made, you know, a mistake or something and go back and you know how hard it is to talk. I mean, you you out of anybody knows how difficult it is to be talking live and hey, you know, I I and again, I haven't been brave enough to hit the go live button yet, but I got my live stream back around. So, see, shout out to Australia, by the way. This is the reason why. Hey, Australia. This is why I wanted all those pon toasters. See, this is World Arcadeers, dude. Australia loves pinball so much. It is such a shame that it is so difficult to get pinball machines over there. They need to build like some sort of like tube. Like do you like tubes? Tubes are cool, right? Yeah. Imagine a pinball tube that just goes straight from like whatever America like Chicago or Texas all the way to Australia. I mean, Mr. Pinball's trying. I mean, he's doing the best he can. [laughter] Mr. Pinball Australia is trying, you know, but the boat can only go so fast, [laughter] right? the planes can only fly so often and gas is $6. So, you know, there's all sorts of factors that [laughter] go into this thing, right? Dedicated transportation lane is is I think in the future need we needed, right? Yeah. So, and so I don't I didn't know where I was talking about. That's good. I didn't have American. And I I asked you I asked you this before we started to go live and I think it's a really important question. You kind of answered it saying that you would still like to work for a pinball company, but like dude, kudos to you. How do you keep the motivation after being kind of involved with things that are totally out of your control? You're creative. You just want to make cool pinball machines and these companies just keep like [] on the people that are working underneath them unintentionally, intentionally, I don't know what it is, but like how do you stay motivated for that? I don't know. As part of that, maybe the pinball fever. I don't know. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's I mean I do I do love pinball sometimes. I wonder if pinball loves me. That's a, you know, really. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't. I'm over two. But there's a community. There's a community of people that I like and hang out with and they like it and they like me and I I mean, you know, I don't want to I don't want to get all Steve from Blues Clues about it, but yeah, it's kind of that it's kind [clears throat] of Well, yeah. I mean, I if I didn't if if I didn't try this whole pinball thing, I wouldn't have a game with my name on it. And so the good and the bad of it, you know, that wouldn't happen. I'd still be in education. Nothing feels better than a game coming out with your name on it, right? Yeah. I have a legacy. I have something with my that that happened. We cannot take I happened. It's evidence. This happened. We had a team. The team worked. We managed our our difficulties, differences, and similarities and and meetings and we put it together and created a commercial product, which is fantastic. And we know it's real because not everybody likes it and not everybody hates it. Right. Okay. That's how you know you landed right in the middle of creating something very real, right? Because one thing about because everybody likes it, you have a cult, right? You know, cult, right? You have to affect the triangle, you have a cult. If everybody doesn't like it, then not even your mother, then you have a problem. That's another problem. Yeah. I mean, and you've and if you've got blinders on where you think it's great and everybody's telling you it's not, that's a problem. That's a problem, right? So, you need everybody likes it bad. Everybody hates it bad. So you got So now like Yeah. So like Okay. Yes. So if people like I saw the show yesterday people were making snide comments about Barry's game. I know that you know that was cool. That was I understand they show you know about Barry's game. You know that's good. But you know everybody laughed but um I'm like but to me I'm like yo that makes this valid. That means this is a valid I have a valid product in the world because they're both good and bad. People will tell me it's good. They tell it to me to my face. The people who tell me it's the people who tell me that it's, you know, checks notes sarcastically uh of of what the word of of what the what the official of what the official word on on the game uh and by the way confirming that we can curse on the show. Oh, for did you not hear me swear a whole [] ton. No, I don't I don't write the game and then people who also say the game is deeply shitty. Okay, cool. So, I take that as yes, not constructive criticism, but I know it's a valid object in the world because not everyone likes it. You're not going to make a game that literally everybody loves anyways. It's just That's my point. You can't If you did, something's wrong. Now, you have a cult. Something h something happened. Hey, hey, hey. What's wrong with cults? Yeah, right. It's bad. [laughter] The cult unless it's a cult personality. It's the cult of pinball, man. the cult of death. I've been I've been in I've been in dealings with the triangle, man. The Great Pyramid. Okay. We've been boys since we we've been boys, we've been girls, we've been [laughter] All right. All right. So, there's some good cults, but other you're living in an echo chamber if you're thinking that you're only uh Yeah. If the if the feedback you're getting is so filtered down to one end or the other, right? But I mean, do you know who's the most critic critical of their game? Me, the designer. I'm like, "Tell me what you don't like about Perry." Would you would you I mean, somebody I have it on my list right now. I bet you I have a list of things that I don't like. Tell me. But any creative knows that that's any project is never ending. You could always tweak. You could always try to improve. It's just that's the curse of making art. And I think pinball is art. It's a culmination of so many different arts into one package. It's the artist paradox, right? If you keep you keep messing with it and all of a sudden now you have a blob on the canvas. You can't do that. That's [laughter] the artist paradox. Yeah. Exactly. So, but so I appreciate when they tell me what things they like and things they don't. I'm like so I can learn. So the next So the next time I get the keys to the the kingdom, if I get a seat in the captain's chair like I got this time, you know, I'll see what happens. You know, let's I'll take that into the next thing. Audio enslaved from the past says that pinball loves you, Steve. So we have confirmation. Confirmation. Pinball people like me. No, [laughter] he said pimp. All right. Okay. [clears throat] I I know that. I mean, I do have maybe maybe I'll have to consult to consult the Great Pyramid again cuz they're definitely I think The Great Pyramid knows whether or not. I mean, Great Pyramid loves you. I still love it. I love it. Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that The Great Pyramid is obsessed with you. [laughter] I still love it, but I'm 0 for two. I'm damaged twice. It's It's not your fault. It had nothing It had nothing to do with you. That's just me frustrated. There a lot of other people who worked at Voldemort who were damaged worse than I, you know, cuz they were working there. They didn't know and they were they were also damaged. And I'm like, I feel for them. What the frustrating thing is like think of the pinball talent that may have been you know kind of like demoralized to the point where we'll never see what those people could have done right because of because of the situations that occurred just just pl so so many good plans just pages and pages of good plans and things we're working on and rules and innovative things. Would you would you lead the design of a game? Oh yeah, of course. Why not? But I know what that comes with. I mean, you know, at least I'm a little less naive. No, for sure. I mean, I think people don't understand like the amount of work that that kind of a of forefront. Not that that's you. I'm not implying that, but just that, you know, designing a game that just when you look behind the curtain, the amount of work that goes into this versus what you think it is on the outside is like totally different. At least it was for me. Maybe maybe it's different for you. You think you know, you don't know. Oh, it should take this long to get code out. No, you don't know. Why isn't the code out yet? Because it's not ready. Okay, somehow Valve finished this figured this out. I don't know. Like they figured it's it's it's ready when it's done and oh code should be out now. Well, why don't we have enough? It's it's tough. Interconnections is things that's not only is it the actual code itself, it's the license. It's more difficult with a pinball machine because you're looking at something that is consuming a substantial amount of space. You know, like software on a hard drive can be invisible. You can move on from it and forget about it and then come back when it's actually ready. But yeah, but there's so it's so many things. There's so many push pull things you got to work with. I meanh [sighs] I mean I mean just there another I'm talking about Barry's game too much but because I could forever because it's my tribute to him and whatever and I just hope that it I hope it was I hope it was a a worthy tribute to him and it's not finished and I wish it wasn't finished. It isn't finished. I mean, there's an octothorp where the grid is that's supposed to do something. There's a reason why there's an octothorp sitting there. And if you look at it, you know why it's there. I mean, what do tic-tac-toe symbols do? They do three in a row things. So, things like that, you know, uh but I and then you but then you get to all the way to the business side of it where it's like, okay, I'm trying to we're trying to do what Barry's wants to do and what what I want to do and what we want to do as a team. And then uh and I'm also like designing against myself because I want to save money because I want the game to come out at a cheaper price so that as many people can buy it as possible. Yeah. And then we don't understand that unlimited budgets is not a thing in pinball. Like there's a reason that things get cut or modified in a way to make it cheaper and then like promises get made is like you know I'm like yes we're going to be able to bring the game out at a price with a five in front of it. Please, that's very important. I want a distributor to be able to get this game with a price with a four in front of it. They can sell that. [snorts] You know how big that would be. And then we do all this work and do all all this compromising. I do rule of three everywhere cuz that's the board we have, you know, so we use that. I can't put the spinners where I want cuz that's the spinners we have. So the spinners don't work as well as they could. It's because they were near the front and if they were different and and yet the game still comes out at $69.95 and I've been angry certain times in my life and that was what that was a time I was and there are people maybe in this chat who know how angry I was because they saw and they were angry too. So, was it announced that that was going to be the cost of the game publicly before they made the change or No, the change was internal, right? And the first announced price was 6995 and I was but of course it was $1 first, you know, like I was so disappointed cuz I realized I got trapped. I trapped myself. Okay, it was going to be $69.95 anyway. Maybe I shouldn't have designed against myself [laughter] cuz you're trying to build you're trying to build a different game at a different price point. I mean, there's other this stuff there's other stuff that like Ryan wanted to bring. Ryan wanted an extra feature that we could hit so that the middle wasn't so boring. You know, let's put that in. If you're going to try the $69.95 anyway. Yeah, that wasn't the point. You're going to sell less games. Come on. Did you just put the $69.95 in a cell spreadsheet and it look good? Like, don't you understand? You're going to have less number over here than the column marked game sold. That's going to make this number worse. Do you understand that? No. You know, meanwhile, this is the old AP. The new AP. I have no idea. We don't I mean, this could be the same show. I'm like I'm like I'm like I have so I'm confident. I'm good. Okay, come on. Let's go. Feeling good. Come on, Circus. Come on. You know, maybe pass a look at Galactic. Pass a look at Barry's game when you get the chance. Maybe. I feel like the creative teams and the marketing teams are always kind of separated in the pinball company ecosystem and they just the cross talk there doesn't exist. You know, the bean counters want to make certain price points happen and the creative team is just trying to make the best pinball machine they can. So when people are on pin side flaming on people, getting mad at companies really they're they should be targeting not the creative teams that are behind them because that's not the people that are making these decisions. And part of it is they don't know. And I know I don't I don't expect them to know everything cuz they don't know cuz if they didn't know, they'd be there. But also realize that you don't know. And so, you know, I'm not saying temper what you say, but think about it before you hit send. Maybe. Nobody or not. You're just in the morning and then you're going to write things and send. I understand. It's it's the internet. It's the current year. It's what happens. It's social currency. It's the game. That's I know. That's the game. I'm talking against the game. You can't talk against the game. The game will get back at you. Okay. The game of social currency is a dangerous game. But um so yeah, that that was just one part of it. And so I was, you know, very disappointed to see that and like, okay, um I mean, why not just get a Stern Pro at $69.95, man? I'll get a Stern Pro. Why? I mean, what are we doing, you know? Yeah, I'm I'm tell I'm going to get a That's a hard That's a hard sell on somebody to buy an AP game for the same price that you can get a Stern game for the same price. It's a Stern licensed game. It's not It's a non cell. It's not a hard cell. It's nonsell. That's Come on. Yeah. Right. It's a non cell. I don't care if it's That's why that's how can that's how I can easily separate myself from my product. Like, see, I can I can separate my the creator from the product. Watch me do it. That's a nonell. Okay. I don't care. Give me, you know, you give me a stern licensed product with a known pedigree, right? Versus new game from new designer me, right? And then same price as this game that I know I'm going to get a level of support and whatever whatever thing and I know what this is and I think it was Jaws at the time. Was it Jaws? I don't know. I think it was I think that's what was I that was the same $69.95. Yeah, that was the same $69.95. I'm like no you can't do that. So that's why at least if you can do that. I mean my golden snitch price was $54.95. I was hoping for that, you know. I was like but that was like pipe cream stuff. I [laughter] was like, well, I mean, at that point, you'd probably have to take out too much where the game wouldn't start feeling like as good as a Stern Pro. It would just be, right? Yeah. Right. But people, that's another thing people don't realize. It's like, yeah, you know, the reason why Optimus doesn't transform? Probably cuz they couldn't make him do that for $69.95. [laughter] It's the other way around. It's just It's the other way. What you think is, oh, he doesn't transform, so it should be less than that. No. [laughter] The reason why he doesn't is in order to be able to sell it for $16.95 and still pay people the money in the factory is uh you do that. I'm just I mean clearly clearly they ordered these transforming mechs, right? Because they showed it, right? Do you think that there's a market Stern? I'm sure Stern would get a lot of blowback, but for the people that truly want their games to like transform, they could sell it like a topper. You could sell a modification to your game that you put in there. I mean, there's something there. Yeah, I think there is something there. I don't know. I mean, I don't know how you f finagle that personal wise. I mean, I think you're going to piss off a lot of people for it, but I think people are I mean, look how much people spend on, you know, mods for their pinball machines. Like, I bought like every Stumbler mod for my Godzilla. So, like, you know, the modders are going to kill that. Yeah, the modders are just they were licking their chops at that thing. I'm just saying. Come on. [laughter] I mean, yeah, you have everything transforming up in that space. If you look at it, it looks like because I look at the pinball machine's going to turn into a different pinball machine. That'll be the ultimate. It's going to it's going to transform and cook you breakfast just like people say they need to do. It's going to actually do it and that is going to come out of Soundwave and Soundwave is going to open. It's going to have a muffin for you and we're going to do it. Machines need muffins inside them to be perfectly honest. This is like a substantially undertapped market. I mean, we'll see. We We'll see. I mean, yeah, I was I was wondering when I saw the initial picture and it looked like he was squatting down. I was like, "Is he squat?" And I didn't understand. Oh. Oh, he's standing. Oh, they didn't It didn't even click in me. I was like, "Oh, he's supposed to get up and go down." I was like, "Okay." I got fooled by the picture. I was like, "Oh, I thought it is he squat." And then he What happens? I don't That's strange. That's not something. He's got to take a dump. I mean, like, let's be honest. Do the Transformers poop? They got it, right? Right. Well, maybe. I I don't know that old oil like is an oil change just a robot taking a [] in a Michael Bay one maybe I think Devastator might have done something maybe there I don't know [laughter] with a name like Devastator you're definitely taking like big dumps but the game plays well I mean the only the only thing I the only thing I I didn't I didn't appreciate very much there were two things I didn't like about it which are which are probably easy fixes the lock it was bouncing out of lock a lot but that's just me that's with the one that's also an extremely easy shot I odd. But also like so is the center shot on Godzilla. So it's okay if certain shots are easy. But is it though? It's easy, but if you're off a little bit, you're going to be in a danger area if he's up the middle. And that's okay. What's wrong? That's good. It's fantastic. That's what me saying that makes it correct. Like it's easy. Center shot on Jaws is like my example of that all the time. So the center shot on Jaws, the little like little loop back towards you is both the easiest shot to hit and the most dangerous shot. Yeah. You miss and you're dead. You take it. Yeah. Oh, you missed it. Oh, you have framed it. Oh, get out. No. Yeah. No. Or take two dangers on the way out. Cuz you deserved it. Cuz you missed it. You know, it's easy. Why didn't you hit it? Take it. That's [laughter] perfect. Same thing with Transformers. Oh, it's right there. Oh, you miss you off by a little bit. And there's enough playfield where off by one degree will take you like a little bit over. Oh, you better deal with that. And it's perfect. So, what was your second? My second thing was the long reverse shot. the left ramp, the long left reversomatic that goes over that would rattle and not go sometime. Okay. You know, that wasn't a problem in the beginning of the day. I think that really probably had to do with the flippers getting roasty. If I had, if we're talking about stern criticism here, I wish that they put flipper fans on those games and I wish they put Invisalass on all of them so that people that wanted to shoot footage could see through it. I get it from like, oh well the pros got invisalass on the media day and like someone's gonna be like that's a legal issue, but like come on. Like you were you're there to get footage and you want the games to flip good all day and they're getting beat up. Like why not? Yeah. And and I think that's something that probably will be I part of it might be skill issue. I don't know. It just looked like and you know what it felt to me? It felt like like your call on it being like Jurassic Park is an excellent call and on that you were talking about how um your call on how it was like the game is sort of like Jurassic Parkish cuz it does feel like Jurassic Park B division like if Jurassic Park was a little bit lenient on you. It's kind of Transformers but it's not bad. Like that doesn't make it bad. You know people People People go like oh if you oh it's like another game that makes it bad. No no no you don't understand. That's what makes it good cuz it's innov It's innovation and it's even better. You understand? Totally. That that wasn't a negative criticism. I think a light like a slightly easier version of Jurassic Park. Uh at least from the shots cuz the code doesn't Just cuz the shots are easier doesn't mean the code's easier. I mean, there's other ways to make the game difficult. And it doesn't shoot like it's some kitty game or something. Like it's still Yeah. And when you make the shot, it feels great. Like dude, all of those shots feel really good. great when you make the shot, which makes it all more disappointing when you break it because it's like the the opening is so wide, so you hit the area. And I think what's happening is you're rattling on the way up. And so I think you have to like do what happens on ND500 where ND500 if you shoot the loop combo and you shoot it straight into the hole, it bounces out. Just do the just view the yagpin grand finals, you'll see that versus if you ride the wall on the way up, it goes in the hole, right? These are these are also the proto not prototype but they're the floor like these are the first four games made right so I think that the any if anybody that's doesn't know like the pinball machines go through little tiny tweaks between the first generation that comes out versus like you know number 200 or whatever. Yeah. So, I imagine some of the stuff's going to get a little little tweaked and and so I think that's going to be fine because when you hit the shot it it feels very I mean feels way better than the tower on Jurassic. The tower the shower loops up quicker so it's a better it's a better chance to make it when you hit it directly. But man, that thing has some Shaquille O'Neal rejections down the right [laughter] out lane if you miss it. Oh my god. The right ramp really does feel like a pterodactyl shot. that ramp has got the same level of kind of difficulty. I would say I would say that right ramp is probably the least satisfying shot on it. But that's not to say that it's not a satisfying shot for me. But but I I give some I give some credit back to it because if if Megatron's right drop target is down, then the right ramp has more forgiveness on the way in. Yeah. And it makes you better. You you make that shot unexpectedly. It's like, "Oh, I made this shot." It makes it actually easier. So, I got to put points back on the right ramp. You know, like you take it away and I put it back on. Take it away. Put it back on. That's This is This is just honest analysis. Like, see, those out there, I saw a comment somewhere. Forgot where it was. I think it was Facebook or something. I don't know. I saw a comment somebody say, "Oh, you media people won't talk bad about the game because you won't get invited back to the thing on the next time." It's like, "You trying to do some Gamergate thing? Is that what this is? Are you seriously doing that in pinball? Are you seriously doing that? They're happy we're talking about it at all, you know? They're happy we're talking about it period. Trimol is still too niche of a subniche to do any sort of Gamergate stuff like that. Yeah. Okay. Agreed. I mean, I came back from Call of the Empire and was just like the Death Star destroyer or the Death Star is a is a mess. Like, it's rejected. It got fixed, didn't it? Got fixed. But it got fixed. It got fixed because people talked about it. People that were at media day. Now it's a 95enter. It's like a 90 95% shot. I think I've gotten blocked like twice since then. No, after the fix it's like I mean I wouldn't say it's rock solid, but no no shot on pinball is 100%. So, but the backhand is back. I mean, everything I mean it's like great like you know very rarely do I feel like it robbed like I went up there and it get blocked clearly got blocked once. okay, that game or they won't get blocked another four games, you know, like that's really happened and we're not doing it because of influence or whatever, all that stuff. It's just that's just what happens, you know? I mean, if if anything invite us, it'll invite us back because of our honesty because our honesty is what gets the the word out and that gets the game out that sells the game to people. I stand by our state. Transparent honesty about news is a much better more powerful weapon than making up [] just so that you can get opportunities. That's dumb. It's much easier to remember the truth. That's the old the old adage, right? It's much easier to remember the truth, right? Than to have to remember the lies. Okay. Why? I mean, you know, you're there trying to figure out how the game plays and have fun and talk to people and do whatever. And and I know they're trying to go into their development, too. Like if anything, they don't need us to make the game better. But if you, you know, you're living in a bubble, right? There's only what they had two people doing like the uh because you can't put games on location anymore because they find out about it. You can't do any tests like you could back in the, you know, ' 80s and 90s, right? Internet. So Elizabeth aren't strong enough. Nas aren't strong enough apparent. But apparently it only the only NDA the only NDA that's strong enough now is whatever's going on in barrels cuz you guys have some pain of death and pain of death cuz there's no more fun. Isn't it more fun to surprise people? There's no more good people in the world. So something in the NBA is punishing that pain of death. Something's going on there. So I don't know. So whatever you guys got going is special. Small team. Small passionate team. That's all it is. So you guys are good. Thumbs up. I keep telling people the next game's Raven 2000. And I've said it a million times and like when it comes out you're going to be like, "Oh, he wasn't lying the whole time." I'll be like, "I [] told you." Like, "Hey, so but so no, this is this is not a Gamergate situation. Please don't try to put extra stuff in it that ain't there." Um, so I'm just I don't know what else to say to that. That that one it didn't frustrate me. I It more I laughed at it cuz I'm like it's like, man, this is not Rockstar Interactive. This [laughter] is not Ubisoft or Ubisoft. I said it's not big companies. This is this is Stern and then boutique companies. This is Jersey Jack with games. We're trying to service the the niche of a subniche of a of a market, right? I mean, pinball is still too small. Still too small to have factions. We haven't reached that level yet. We haven't got there yet. We're getting there. We're trying. We want it to be as more popular as possible. Oh, thank you. Beverage delivery. Hi everybody. [laughter] Look, it's S. See, like the camera immediately focuses on her. It's like blame it. Do you blame it? As it should, right? [laughter] Of course. I think this is her reminder that I should probably get Oh, god damn it. Thanks, Sid. You ruined my [laughter] We are almost pushing two and a half hours though, so I do. Let's Let's wrap it up. What time it is? Okay, let's Whatever. Okay, let's go. Let's go. Well, I'm thinking maybe later. That's what I'm saying. Maybe in the future we can do pimp pal show. I don't know. Whatever you want. We can do we can do a deep available. We'll ask chat chat, would you like to see a deep dive on one of the slew of fascinating historical topics that Steve has endured during his career in pinball? I would. And many I haven't even talked about. And many [laughter] we haven't talked about. True. Where's the book? Where's the book being written? I don't know. It's not being written yet. But Steve, seriously, I I truly appreciate your time and thank you for coming on here and and telling us these stories and your design philosophy and all of the other good little nuggets of information. Uh yeah, I mean the floor is yours. Is there anything that you'd like to to say to the people that you got going on coming up? Oh yeah. Okay. Where we got Oh, we got Lumberjack Johnny's tournament coming up in Wisconsin. We got IFPA World Pinball Championships coming up. um coming up recently, you know, I'm posting my website on, you know, as much as I can. I'm doing I'm doing social media every as much as I can. Fun with bonus everywhere. Fun with bonus. Uh it's fun with bonus is fun with bonus.com. It's that's you'll usually find me there or it's Stephenben on Facebook or or you know, follow me there. I don't know when I'm going to start doing live streaming, but I'm going to try do it. Everybody tell Steve to live stream. You should do it. It's It's a promise I made to my mom before she passed that I would do. She told me to get my voice out there more. She likes when I do commentary. So that's why I wear this. This is a non- riffer. Um because this is the last thing I talk to her about before she passes. Fantastic. Sorry. That's heartbreaking. That's why I wear this. That's why I wear this everywhere. It's not because yes, I got this present. I wonder why you had that at Stern media day and now I know. Man, that's so that's beautiful. That's why I wear this. So now everybody knows [laughter] people have asked me and I told them behind the scenes. Okay, so that's why I try to wear this until I wear it out. And so so yeah, so that's me on Fun with Bonus. Uh fun with Bonus everywhere. I will have all that included in the description, too. So if you've watched this long and you and you've gotten here, you can check it out the description below. I always put the guest links before my own so you can find their stuff because you are the most important part of the podcast right now, not me. Uh Chris has a question. wants to know if you're going to the Beast. Absolutely. I'm going to the Beast. Beast? Absolutely. We are going to get our butts kicked once again this year, man. The Beast has one of the toughest setups, but it's still playable. Yagpin is still the still champion of tough setups. That is wild. You said you said you're not a collector, but uh but I have to ask, if you were going to if you were going to collect some classics, can I uh can I ask you out of these three games? Out of these three games, which which would you add to your collection? Mhm. I'm ready. Raven. Mhm. Raven. Interesting. Okay. Or Barry's Barbecue. H. Okay. Well, I don't own a Barry's game. [laughter] That's right. I don't own a Barry's game. Let's continue the story. Uh, no. But not only not only would Raven be a good choice, right? There was a Raven at Fantastic New Robert Englunds I got a picture of and I tried to find it before the show and I couldn't. But it was a Raven that had they started a process of making it Predatorish. You know, they had a Predator. That was expo. It was right next to the barrels booth except it was broken. I wanted to play it so bad. Yeah, that Raven that Raven played pretty good and it was near it was near us and we were we broke game. So that Steve's on record. He's picked the Predator Raven. [laughter] That was good. And then, hey, believe me, Chad, we had a lot of stuff we didn't cover. So, it's just we're we are two and a half hours in. So, I know. But again, hey, I I I'm going to do it again. Maybe I we list some more topics for my live stream when we come up. Are you kidding me? I would it would be my honor to have you on again. You're you're a commentating legend. You are a pinball uh legend. And uh I truly hope that uh some company picks you up to put your talents to use in the pinball ecosystem because it needs it. But until then, I remain a pinball fan and a pinball enthusiast and I will hope to see any of you at the next tournament. You know, trying to beat these machines butts just one more time, man. You know, there's always another tournament. Thank goodness we've gotten to that point for sure. And there's more than ever. It does it really does seem like pinball is growing. you know, Colin's like little kineticist uh samples of how many units are showing up on location. It seems like the hobby is growing. I feel like a lot more people are are into it more than ever. If you are curious about pinball or if you know people that aren't into pinball, uh invite them over, drag them to a bar that's got pins, take them into a league, don't be afraid to play. And one one thing before we go, I want to make sure I get this. I don't know how close we are to ending, but I just want it just came to my mind. you had a segment on one uh one time that just some someone else who's notable in pinball that you should uh pay attention to that we may not be right. I think you asked that question and when you asked that question I was like yeah I was like if like if and when I got on the show I'm going to mention this person's this person and this person's name moniker online is indie gamer chick or the pinball chick indiegamerchick.com or the pinball chick.com. This This is a reviewer who will be like, "Oh, guess what? I'm going to review um all the um pinball arcade games." All of them? Yeah. Like all of them? Like Like all of them? Like all of them? There's a hund? Yes. All of them? Even that one? Yeah. Even that one, too? You mean the one that wasn't released? Yes. I still have it and I'm going to do a review on it. This this is and it's a shame that this person has not received more social currency even though they've been in the game longer than I have. [laughter] It's, you know, there's so many people that dedicate so much of their time to this and it's just, you know, whatever the algorithm is, the discovery isn't there. And it's just like the content's great, but you know, YouTube's shoveling this other like brain rot [] and it's just like, all right, Indiegog the the pinball chick.com goes right to the pinball stuff, right? But I do like she's working on a review. She's working a review with like her family and her family is also reviewers and stuff and and I'm talking it's like it's all of the games like all of it. Like you're talking about oh we're going to talk about Crew Ball for the Genesis and then we're going to go into Pinball Fantasies for the PC Demon Fury Sonic Spinball. There's a number of really great Absolutely. Absolutely. We're going to talk about the history of Sonic Spinball and why it sucks in the way it does and why it could have been better. It's physics do feel like floaty and weird. Probably because they had to load this like massive level into it. Well, I guess they had to for regular Sonic, too. But no, but he's talking about oh the effects of previous games and how that, you know, the effects of how Mortal Kombat worked into it. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about I'm definitely going to check that out. Uh Slinger is asking, he said, "Doesn't she do a bunch of pinball effects coverage, too?" You know what I mean? That'd be a that You know what? We We need more pinball effects coverage because this helps people get in. I know it's virtual pinball. Very pinball, dude. I think video game pinball is still real pinball. It's got flippers in the wall. It's [] pinball. Yeah, you think it's good. I think it's good cuz it helps people get into the real pinball games. Be like, "Hey, remember see this Attack from Mars that you just played?" Well, let me take you up to the real Attack from Mars. Dude, the pinball effects version of Attack from Mars is horrendous though. That game does not play anything like the real one. There ain't no more patterns, bro. I was like, I know you played Fun House where you could hold the right flipper up and it just kicks out to the right flipper. Let me take you to the real for now. So, how you going to deal with this? Oh, yeah. So, that's how you get them in. But this is what I do on pinball effects. It's easy. I'm like, I know. I know. Okay. Now, I do I do wish Pinball Effects had like a preset where you could make the game like jank, right? Like a like a beat up arcade game, right? Where it like randomizes the rubber's bounciness and like, you know, the flippers alignment's kind of messed up and like solenoids aren't as power. You know what I mean? Like that's I remember there was a game in the past which had like a like a an age an aging like it would slow you would slowly age it over time. I don't know. No, I mean like a a video pinball game where it's like you would set it you could set it to be like get a little bit more scuff over time and there was a level. I don't know if I'm hallucinating that or what. And it sounds like maybe something that pro pinball would have done. And um you know the people who did time shock the people who did time shock which should have been a real game which was gonna be a real game which isn't and which dang it it isn't. I was gonna be uh I remember something like that when it was something like that to build a little bit of randomness in it to where you can just depend on stuff now that that's come to mind to mind and now I'm going to have to look for that after the show. We're gonna have to look for that. Message me. I want to know. I'll post about it in the news because that sounds awesome. If I'm not hallucinating that [laughter] fever dream pinball made up fever dream pinball. Yeah, this was years ago. I'm thinking that happened which is why I'm thinking pro pinball. You know, big race. Big big race. Time shock and fantastic journey like that series. Yeah. I mean there was a limited amount of of those games. Yeah. But you know what it was? Pinball. Silverball was the one that like really got me into video game pinball. I remember that so well. Fantasy Odyssey. There was so many music on those games. Blood on Facebook. Follow her. Follow her on Facebook. She's like doing it right now. Like in progress. There's like posts come up. Oh man. Here comes Sonic Pinball. I know it's going to be a problem. Okay, here comes Here comes Devil's Crash. Okay, I'm ready. Devil's Crash Gravity 16. Let's go. We're ready. We're already set. Fun. I took so much time into [laughter] that game. Okay. So, you know that that's what I'm make sure I gave that shout out as well. And you know, and also also another shout out to the PIMO minority report that the prep podcast that came out of course that's and uh uh Erica, right? Love that name. Like if my p if my podcast I did back in the day wasn't going to be in the meltdown. It was on one of like that name was on one of the names I had written on my WWE list of names that you know you give what it could be. Sure. The minority report was kind of be one of them because I was thinking of a movie. Right. But so I was like, "Yes, that's an do that. I love that." So shout out to them. They're already two episodes in, I think. Also, Manny's channel got hacked, which thankfully it's back now. But if you don't check out if you don't check out Manu's content, he runs Mystery Pinball Theater on Friday. They do Rift Track. Uh it's like a live game point system thing where you get to watch and try to make jokes and people vote for it. It's super fun. I highly recommend it. Um and then of course Erica has Erica's pinball journey where she, you know, documents her. Back up. Let's get my news numbers up. back up. Let's get Eric's numbers up. Well, so I have good news on that front because I was telling everybody to get back on there and follow him. Google's process reacquired all of his subs and re put him back. So, he's got his entire following again. Oh, happy days, which finally a win in the hacking space. You don't think that that doesn't happen like ever, you know? Wow. Good a good thing in pinball. All right. What do you know? I know, right? Or a good thing that YouTube did. Really is the shocker here. That's really good. That's shocking. [laughter] Shocking. Next, you'll tell me Twitch does something good. Oh, wait. Thanks, Steve. You just got me demonetized on both. I said that. [laughter] I said that. I'm sorry. Oh, no. Uh, all right. Uh, without further ado, let's go find someone to raid. That's what we do. Uh, Steve, stick around. You're not going to be able to hear me while I do the transfer process. All praise the Great Pyramid. Thank you for reminding me. I don't have my pyramid shirt on, although I guess I got new ones. I got There you go. Yeah, you can't get more pyramid than this, you know. [laughter] Yeah. Boom. Triangle. Let's go. Let's [] go. Anyways, uh so yeah, stick around for a second. Let's go raid. Thank you chat for everybody for watching. Uh you know, again, go check out the socials. Go check out Steve and uh play more pinball. Thanks for ma Thanks for watching. What's matching mean? Steve, can you tell everybody goodbye so I can hit the BRB button? Bye. Bye, everybody. Keep flipping. [music] Does your life lack purpose? Have you wondered is there anything more? [music] Join the cult of pinball. The Great Pyramid accepts all to the cult of [music] the great order. I'm Dr. _(Acquisition: youtube_auto_sub, Enrichment: v5)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-06-15 | Item ID: 3b35db55-54f8-47bd-abdf-7efc57382344*