# Ep 22: Hands on RAZA with the Velvet Voice, Jeff Teolis **Source:** LoserKid Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2019-11-22 **Duration:** 73m 15s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/vtuvIlkc --- ## Analysis Jeff Teolis joins Loser Kid Pinball to discuss his background in radio and comedy, Deep Root Pinball's RAZA prototype reveal at Houston Arcade Expo, and the broader state of pinball manufacturing quality and design philosophy. The hosts praise RAZA as a return to fun, campy 90s-style pinball and highlight Deep Root's strategic approach to market entry through data-driven playtesting rather than traditional launches. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Jeff Teolis has been in radio for 25 years after graduating from a radio college program where he was one of 32 accepted out of 600 applicants — _Jeff Teolis biographical statement early in episode_ - [HIGH] Deep Root Pinball did not ask for pre-orders or crowdfunding, distinguishing them from Highway Dutch and other manufacturers — _Josh Roop direct statement comparing Deep Root business model_ - [HIGH] RAZA collected data from 560 people waiting in line for 15 hours a day at Houston Arcade Expo — _Jeff Teolis describing the scale of the RAZA reveal event_ - [HIGH] Deep Root used a playfield from Merco and a cabinet they don't plan to use for the RAZA prototype — _Jeff Teolis explaining prototype construction choices_ - [HIGH] J-Pop (Papa Duke) has made excellent games including Circus Voltaire, Theater of Magic, and Totem — _Scott Larson describing J-Pop's design portfolio_ - [MEDIUM] Deep Root announced RAZA at Houston to fulfill their 2019 promise of showing games and solidify themselves as a real company — _Jeff Teolis explaining the strategic reasoning behind Houston reveal timing_ - [HIGH] The RAZA prototype reveals animations described as 'the finest animations I've ever seen on a pinball machine' — _Jeff Teolis direct statement about RAZA animation quality_ - [HIGH] Deep Root compensated Zidware customers affected by J-Pop's previous company failure with cash settlements or free games — _Scott Larson discussing Deep Root's redemption strategy for J-Pop_ ### Notable Quotes > "I'm really big into redemption in anybody. You know, I give people the benefit of the doubt. I try to like everyone sometimes it doesn't work but if it doesn't work it's not a hatred thing it's just you go your way I go my way" > — **Jeff Teolis**, early in episode > _Frames his philosophy on J-Pop redemption and broader community approach_ > "This is the second coming. This is the second coming of that feel that we haven't had in pinball for 20 years." > — **Scott Larson**, discussing RAZA > _Expresses enthusiasm for RAZA's design philosophy compared to classic games like Circus Voltaire_ > "Why now? Why are you releasing it at Houston? And he said why not. It solidifies us as a real company. There it is. We can make a pinball machine, but this is just the prototype." > — **Jeff Teolis (quoting Steve Bowden)**, discussing RAZA reveal strategy > _Explains Deep Root's core reasoning for public prototype reveal_ > "They made a machine that isn't even going to be their final product because they wanted to get out there and get testing. I mean, who goes out and makes a full pinball machine that's – like they got the play field from Merco. They threw it in a cab that they're not going to be using. It kind of blew my mind." > — **Jeff Teolis**, analyzing prototype strategy > _Highlights Deep Root's commitment to data-driven design through functional prototype_ > "It shoots very, very well. There's lots to do. There's lots to see. I want to play it again because I need to know more, and again, and again." > — **Jeff Teolis (summarizing Steve Bowden's feedback on RAZA)**, discussing player reactions > _Captures core design philosophy: observable player behavior and replay value_ > "This is 100% what we need in pinball right now. It's such a ludicrous theme. It's so over the top. Campy...I want that humor. I want the fun thing...how many games actually have a lot of humor in them right now? They've gotten so serious." > — **Scott Larson**, analyzing RAZA's thematic approach > _Identifies market gap for campy, humorous games vs. serious current trend_ > "I think there's a lot of people that just hold back from buying new in-box product right now because they're afraid of the clear-code issues. They're afraid of – and those issues only might be one in 1,000 that they make of these. But there's that hesitation there." > — **Jeff Teolis**, discussing manufacturing quality concerns > _Identifies real market sentiment about quality and code stability affecting purchases_ > "I only imagine, you know, it's a focus group they've never had. With whatever they've got in San Antonio, well, that pales in comparison to what they saw in Houston when there was a lineup of 560 waiting to play for 15 hours a day." > — **Jeff Teolis**, analyzing data collection from RAZA reveal > _Contextualizes the massive scale of feedback and testing data_ > "If this was more mass produced and more out there I would have been very curious what the next game was and it was Alien and I have played that and that is a fun game." > — **Jeff Teolis**, reflecting on past manufacturers > _Uses American Pinball as cautionary example of good games hampered by production/structure issues_ > "When you're starting a company, most of the time they don't make money for the first five years. Robert's not putting all of his eggs into this basket that is pinball. He's very diversified, and like you say, he certainly enjoys it too." > — **Scott Larson**, analyzing Deep Root's financial positioning > _Highlights structural advantage Deep Root has vs. past startups that lacked financial runway_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Jeff Teolis | person | Radio personality (25 years experience), emcee at major pinball events, Pinball Profile podcast host, competitive player who won Flip Frenzy at Pinball Profile World Tour Australia | | Scott Larson | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast with Josh Roop | | Josh Roop | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast | | J-Pop (Papa Duke) | person | Pinball designer, founder of Zidware (which failed), now designing for Deep Root Pinball; created Circus Voltaire, Theater of Magic, Totem, World Cup Soccer | | Deep Root Pinball | company | New pinball manufacturer founded by Robert; revealed RAZA prototype at Houston Arcade Expo; financially backed by Robert's personal wealth; developing games including RAZA, Alice, Magigirl rumored | | RAZA | game | Deep Root Pinball's prototype reveal at Houston Arcade Expo; zombie-themed; designed by J-Pop; features animations praised as 'finest ever seen'; incorporates design elements from J-Pop's prior work; scheduled for full reveal at San Antonio/Texas Pinball Festival in March; not yet final product | | Loser Kid Pinball Podcast | organization | Independent pinball podcast hosted by Josh Roop and Scott Larson; focused on casual/home player perspectives; 1M+ views/listens, 9,000+ subscribers | | Steve Bowden | person | Deep Root Pinball VP Marketing; interviewed on Pinball Profile about RAZA; conducted player behavior observation research at Houston | | Robert | person | Founder/owner of Deep Root Pinball; provides financial backing without pre-crowdfunding model; diversified business portfolio; has business management experience | | Houston Arcade Expo | event | Pinball/arcade show where RAZA prototype was revealed; featured 560-person queue with 15-hour daily playtest windows | | Zidware | company | J-Pop's previous pinball company that failed; customers lost money; Deep Root compensated affected customers with cash settlements or free games despite no legal obligation | | Dennis Nordman | person | Deep Root Pinball designer; designed Bram Stoker's Dracula; legendary pinball designer known for Williams classics | | Barry Elsler | person | Deep Root Pinball designer; known as 'wonderful man'; designed Bram Stoker's Dracula | | John Norris | person | Deep Root Pinball designer; previously worked at Gottlieb with quick turnarounds; now has opportunity for more complete code development | | Circus Voltaire | game | Classic Williams game designed by J-Pop; referenced as uniquely fun compared to other 90s classics like Whitewater; frequently chosen by home collectors' guests | | Stern Pinball | company | Major manufacturer; described as 'lifestyle brand' not just pinball company; maintains strong market position through consistent releases and quality control | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Major manufacturer; has learned from past mistakes; continuing to improve quality and game design | | Spooky Pinball | company | Manufacturer with clear business plan; making smart decisions about market positioning | | Texas Pinball Festival | event | Major pinball event in San Antonio; scheduled for March 25th; expected location for RAZA full reveal | | Merco | company | Pinball playfield supplier; provided playfield used in RAZA prototype | | Scott Denisi | person | Associated with Spooky Pinball; observed RAZA prototype at Houston | | Josh Sharp | person | Referenced as subject of Jeff Teolis's comedic ribbing; brother of Zach Sharp; energetic, passionate about pinball; gracious personality | | Zach Sharp | person | Brother of Josh Sharp; works for Stern Pinball; recommended Josh for podcast appearance | | Bowen | person | Competitive pinball player; Jeff Teolis played Full Throttle with Bowen at Pintastic | | Willy Wonka | game | Pinball machine unveiled at Midwest show in March; compared to RAZA as major show reveal moment | | Jurassic Park | game | Pinball game released in 2024; stream reveal followed by appearances at Pinbird; compared as major release moment | ### Topics - **Primary:** Deep Root Pinball market entry strategy and RAZA prototype reveal, J-Pop (Papa Duke) redemption narrative and game design portfolio, Manufacturing quality, code stability, and customer concerns, Pinball game design philosophy: fun/campy vs. serious modern games, Data-driven playtesting and prototype-to-production workflows - **Secondary:** Jeff Teolis's background in radio and comedy, Competitive pinball community and tournament scene, Comparison of major manufacturers (Stern, JJP, Spooky, American Pinball) ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.82) — Hosts express strong enthusiasm about Deep Root and RAZA, praise J-Pop's redemption arc, and show optimism about market diversity. Minor concerns about manufacturing quality in broader industry are contextualized as normal. Community sentiment shifts from skepticism pre-reveal to excitement post-Houston. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Deep Root Pinball has significant financial backing from founder Robert's personal wealth; not dependent on pre-orders or crowdfunding (confidence: high) — Scott Larson: 'most companies don't make money first five years...Robert's not putting all eggs in pinball basket...he's diversified' - **[community_signal]** Deep Root employees, VPs, and industry observers (Scott Denisi/Spooky, Joe Balser/American Pinball, Mike Vindicore/Marco/Stern) attending RAZA playtests to gather competitive intelligence and assess market positioning (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'Deep Root employees...VP's marketing Steve Bowden...saw Scott Denisi from Spooky Joe Balser...Mike Vindicore...there more than once' - **[sentiment_shift]** Significant pre-reveal skepticism about Deep Root quickly transformed to enthusiasm after seeing functional RAZA prototype (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'You hear all this negative feedback before they even show anything and all a sudden people raising hands lining up' - **[competitive_signal]** Deep Root positioning RAZA as return to fun, accessible 90s-style pinball design vs. complex modern machines; targeting market segment dissatisfied with current offerings (confidence: high) — Scott Larson: 'looks like it could be released in the 90s'; discussion of humor gap in current game design - **[design_philosophy]** Deep Root/RAZA emphasizing campy, humorous, colorful aesthetic vs. current market trend toward serious, mature themes (confidence: high) — Scott Larson: 'This is the second coming...haven't had in pinball for 20 years'; discusses shift away from humor in modern games - **[event_signal]** Texas Pinball Festival San Antonio (March 25th) scheduled as major reveal venue for RAZA full product announcement (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'March 25th I'll be there for sure I'm going to San Antonio' for TPF - **[market_signal]** Deep Root strategically revealed prototype (not final product) at Houston rather than waiting for finished game; framed as data collection not traditional launch (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'Why did they do it at Houston...they're in Texas...made promise to show games in 2019...solidifying yes we are pinball company' - **[community_signal]** J-Pop (Papa Duke) hired by Deep Root Pinball after Zidware failure; redemption narrative being actively marketed (confidence: high) — Scott Larson discusses Deep Root's strategic rehiring despite no obligation; described as 'perfect redemption story' - **[personnel_signal]** Deep Root assembled experienced designer roster including Dennis Nordman (Williams legend), Barry Elsler (Bram Stoker's Dracula), John Norris (Gottlieb), J-Pop to enable quality design without startup constraints (confidence: high) — Scott Larson enumerating design team pedigree and noting John Norris can now take time on code vs. rushed Gottlieb timeline - **[announcement]** Deep Root Pinball officially revealed RAZA prototype at Houston Arcade Expo with 560-person queue and 15-hour daily playtest windows (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis and Scott Larson both confirm attendance, observation of player data collection, and massive queue scale - **[product_concern]** Widespread customer hesitation about purchasing new pinball machines due to manufacturing defects and code issues (though acknowledged as rare 1-in-1000) (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'people hold back from buying new in-box product because afraid of clear-code issues...that hesitation there' - **[technology_signal]** Deep Root employing automated data collection infrastructure at playtests (dual feeds for power and data monitoring) (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis describes seeing data collection feeds behind prototype monitoring voltage and shot tracking --- ## Transcript Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are on episode 22. I've got my co-captain with me as always. Scott Larson. And Scott, please introduce our guest for the evening. Well, today we have the velvet voice of radio and pinball and the one who's currently the emcee at all these major events and will be making his way across the lower 48 anytime soon or may have just finished it we have the one the only jeff teolis hello boys velvet voice i haven't heard that before but it's a nice compliment thanks guys now do you do you start off with having a radio voice or did you have to work at it actually how i got into radio i was doing stand-up comedy really clubs in ontario and a buddy of mine that i went to high school with was in a radio college program he did an interview with me and he said you should think about it and at the time i was in university for honors math to become a chartered accountant and i said well i like the radio idea that sounds a lot of fun maybe not the best financial move at that point but it i I enrolled in the program. I was lucky enough to get in, one of the 32 out of 600 people that applied. I think the comedy and public speaking probably helped. And then I got in. It was a two-year program. I graduated. I got a job four days after graduation, and I've been in radio 25 years since. So it's a knock on wood. It's been pretty good, but it wasn't really the path I chose. It just kind of fell in my lap. Wait, you did stand-up comedy. Do you have any of this laying around? I want to see some of this stuff. That's the thing. So I was doing it in the 90s. I do have one VH tape of a performance in which I actually won a contest. And I have tons of audio tapes of it because that's what we did back in the day. We would record back in the room just to kind of hear your set. and this is before cell phones and video phones and all that kind of stuff. So you really had to bring in a camera. The only reason I have the videotape is because the local news department filmed it. So that was the only one I have. It's not on YouTube, so you're not going to be able to find it. Listen, it's not a good time for comedians to be showing old material. Let's just put it that way, right? If you watch Chappelle's new show, he talks about – not that – did I say things I wouldn't say now? Of course. But everybody did, right? So – Yeah, it was a whole different time. Nothing was off color, nothing – well, it just – it was different. Yep. No, it's different. Well, you're taking shots at everybody. And it was the days when people, you know, occasionally you were the you were the target of the shots. I know that watching Josh 2.0, occasionally he says, watch out, Mormons, this one's going to hurt. And of course, I laugh really hard. But like if you it I found it interesting when Kevin Hart basically got pushed out of the Oscars because they looked at some of his old stuff. And I said, have you ever listened to any of Eddie Murphy's stuff? Like if you listen to delirious, there's zero chance that he would. But at the same time, you have to look at it and say that was also 30 years ago. I'm hoping that we have changed as a culture. And that's one thing. When I watch those shows, you know, they always have those those talk shows where it's the person who was who was abused or just was mistreated in school. And now, like 20 years later, they're confronting that person. I'm like, I don't know. I would hope that you have changed, they have changed, and you could find like a new role as opposed to constantly reliving the past. And there were mistakes in the past, and we're probably making mistakes now. But I'm hoping that we can continue to evolve. But, yes, I would never be able to be a comedian because that job will eventually come back to haunt you. I have yet to meet anybody who hasn't made a mistake. We all make mistakes, but the key is to not make the same mistake twice. And that's kind of my motto that I live by. You know, learn from these mistakes. When you make a mistake, you fess up, you apologize, and you learn from it. I'm really big into redemption in anybody. You know, I give people the benefit of the doubt. I try to like everyone sometimes it doesn't work but if it doesn't work it's not a hatred thing it's just you go your way I go my way some of these things in the past I don't think they would haunt me or others but it was a culture where you gotta laugh by making fun of someone and by the way nobody was made more fun of than me by myself that was the whole shtick if I'm gonna make fun of somebody else I'm gonna take it too not just ditch it out so you know i still kind of do that to this day a little self-deprecating here and there it's fun i mean i only really have one punching bag and you had him as a guest on episode 16 and Josh Sharpe yeah so easy i mean the target is just right there by the way how did he not get episode 22. That guy lives for two. Oh, good shot, man. Bombs. Boom. Okay. You know, I will say the one thing that I always remember about the Josh Sharpe interaction was he was energetic. He's one of those guys who's completely passionate about pinball and everything he does and not malicious, just trying his best to, to continue the sport that he's always been involved in his entire life and he couldn't have been more gracious and he couldn't have been nicer and he also is in on the joke and so like he he was i was surprised that he came on but really zach is the one who said you know what you should really talk to our brother my you know my brother and i was like okay sure josh uh contact and we had him on so well two things josh was very very nice to you because it was somebody reaching out and talking to him. He doesn't get a lot of that. And secondly, you're right. He is in on the joke. I mean, if anybody doesn't know that I don't love the guy, you're missing the point. In fact, me making fun of him is the joke, is that I'm making fun of the people that criticize him all the time, kind of, but I'm playing that role. It's kind of like when Stephen Pierce Colbert did his old show on Comedy Central before he got the late show. That was a character. That's kind of what I do with Josh and stuff, but it's just fun to dish it back and forth, and he gives it to me. I give it to him. No, I totally agree. That's good. That's awesome. No, it's great. I was actually thinking exactly when you talked about redemption stories because that really leads me into what I was listening to today when I was coming in, and you were interviewing Steven Bowden on Raza. and when I thought about that I thought you know J-pop is the perfect guy that is one of those where some people take hard hard stances on him and just say he should be exiled from pinball altogether I look at it and say look he he has admitted he's made a huge mistake this is part of the redemption plan and by the way you get to see the progress of the pin that he was intending to make when he was on his own, but now he can actually do it with the backing of a company. And I thought that was a great opportunity for him to really help redeem himself. What are your thoughts on that? I personally love his games. The only game I really don't care to play is the Star Wars game, but that's not really a pinball machine as we know it. Everything else, I can play all day. Toten is one of my all-time favorite games. I own a World Cup soccer. I wish the coding was a little bit better in Theatre Magic, but I love the shots. And Circus Voltaire, that's a very unique game. I enjoy that as well. So when we got to play Raza, holy cow, it was like the greatest hits of J-pop. You know, there were certain elements, you know, that very target in the back going back and forth, that's the goalie in World Cup soccer, except this time you've got to hit him. So that was kind of neat to knock the zombie letters down. and it's got the nice rollovers, that crazy ramp, just like you see in Toten. There's a good ramp there. Speaking of Toten, you've got the spinny toy with the Dizzy Doozy, if that's what it's called. I just enjoyed the heck out of Raza, and especially knowing that that's not even close to being done. That's just, like they say, the prototype. So, yeah, is J-Pop a good business person? Hell no. So, but, you know, I don't know what it was like to be in his shoes. You know, do I think he had good intentions? Absolutely. I don't know what it's like to be in that position when you're just sinking and sinking and, you know, maybe if we get this, we can save it, we can save it. And he just, you know, he was backed into corner. Don't know. It's horrible what happened to people that lost money. But I love that Deep Root for no reason said, you know what? We're going to help those Zidware people. If you're not part of a lawsuit, if you can prove that you've paid and you're owed money, we're going to give you either a cash settlement or a game or games. And I know a bunch of people that are very, very happy that they have made that arrangement with Deep Root when they didn't even have to do that. we talked about that last episode that we thought you know what he probably had robert has probably not getting received the positive press just really by saying look we are going to rehire j-pop and we're going to build the game and by the way we are going to make up for his like for his error and i i think it's amazing and i and really it's the only way that i i felt it could go forward. But again, it was something they didn't have to do. That's amazing to me. I don't think they're getting enough positive PR from that. It was a great PR move. They want to hire this person who has made excellent games. You know he's got a few in the can, in the sense of, maybe it's Raza, Alice, Magigirl, whatever the case may be. Whatever the rumors were back with Zidware, now we're seeing Raza. Who knows what we'll see next? But he makes good games, but You've got to kind of clear the slate with that PR nightmare that was Zidware. And again, Robert didn't have to eat that, but he did. And now it's time to move forward. Again, Deep Root, there are a lot of haters out there for whatever reasons. And I don't get it because unlike Zidware, unlike others, maybe Highway Dutch or anybody who's asked for money before they get a game, that's not the case with Deep Root. They haven't asked for Dine One. So they owe us and everybody on Pinside and everybody that's a collector, they owe none of us a thing. And yet they're putting out a lot right now and not taking anything in. I'm pretty excited by that company. I am too. I'm very excited, especially after seeing the Raza and them saying, hey, this is not final product that you're seeing. And it even intrigues me even more when they're like, this isn't even the cabinet we're going to use. It's like, well, how the heck are you going to do this then? Like, I just, I know a lot of people are kind of like, we're done until stuff starts coming out. And we have seen something now. But the game is just so beautiful. The only mark for me, and this is just personal taste, I don't know why, but I would have preferred it to be Zombieland. I know it's based off of Ben Heck's original title. But I just watched Zombieland again the other day. And I'm just like, this game would, it feels like that to me. It feels like that game. But the whole game looks beautiful. I mean, the artwork is fantastic. I just, I was jealous. I was seeing you and Nomoto down there playing it, and I was just like, this game just looks fun. I'm with you on that. So my buddy who lives like a mile away from me, he has a beautiful Circus Voltaire. It's a home use only. He has a beautiful Totem. He has a beautiful Theater of Magic. And like all of them, I tell him, it's like, these are fun. He posted Circus Voltaire one time for sale, and I told him, you can't sell it because look at all your games. This is different than all your other ones, and it's the one I play the most. And he admitted it. He said, well, actually, when people come over to my house, and he basically has the best of Bally Williams in the 90s, the two that they go to all the time, they always go to Whitewater and they always go to Circus Voltaire. because it has a look and a feel about it. And when I saw Raza, I thought, this is the second coming. This is the second coming of that feel that we haven't had in pinball for 20 years. You just named a couple of games. Circus Voltaire, which J-Pop obviously made, and Whitewater, which I also love. Dennis Nordman, also a Deep Root designer. So very excited what those two are going to do. Barry Elsler is a wonderful man. Bram Stoker's Dracula, one of the all-time greatest games. And then you've got Jon Norris, who I'm curious to see what he's going to see without the quick turnarounds that he used to have to do with Gottlieb. I mean, they would just turn them out, wouldn't be complete codes, or it's good enough, send it out. Well, let's see what he can do now. So those are four people with some great experience. And Steven Bowden, who you mentioned earlier, that was on the podcast, Boy, that guy understands pinball because what he really wants to see, and he did in Houston watching Raza, was what are people doing? I don't want people to know what to do. Just what are they doing? What are they aiming for? What are they enjoying? What are they missing on? Are they successful in these shots? Basically, how does the game shoot? And the answer most people had was it shoots very, very well. There's lots to do. There's lots to see. I want to play it again because I need to know more, and again, and again. That's kind of the idea. There's going to be a lot in there. There already is a lot in there, and you talked about the artwork. That is the finest animations I've ever seen on a pinball machine, and again, it's a prototype. That's what blows my mind. It's just it is a prototype, and now we have to wait for another five months, I guess four and a half, until Texas Pinball Festival or the reveal a couple days before now in San Antonio. And I know people are – it's funny because you hear all this negative feedback before they even show anything, and all of a sudden now we've got people raising hands, lining up. I want to go to the media. I want to volunteer to go to Deep Root and check everything out. Yeah, March 25th, I'll be there. For sure I'm going to San Antonio. And listen, you guys are in a new job. You guys should go to the Deep Root Animation Studios. Sneak in. They're right there in your state. And you know what? Out of all the podcasters, I expect Loser Kid to break stuff by breaking in, really. Yeah. I live about 15 minutes from the studio. You have no idea. And I know where it is. And we've actually reached out. We said, Robert, if you're ever going to let us come in, we would love to just come in and just tour things and talk about it. But I agree with you. When I saw the video that ironically was on YouTube forever before anyone actually discovered it. Two months. Yeah, yeah. But I watched this. I'm like, this is 100% what we need in pinball right now. It's such a ludicrous theme. It's so over the top. Campy. That I – it can't be. Exactly. It's 100% what I want in pinball because I want that humor. I want the fun thing. I have Shrek in my house, which is not really a great machine, but it makes me laugh because how many games actually have a lot of humor in them right now? They've gotten so serious, and I love the camp and the kaleidoscope of colors attitude. And my theory, and maybe I'll share this with you guys, my theory is that it's a prototype because they're testing the shots. So what they're doing is they're just testing the flow of the game. And when they keep talking about, well, it's a prototype, it's because all the bling and all the crazy things that will be put in the game. So, yeah, they just wanted to test a little bit of what people are shooting for and how the flow of the game is. And then when you see the final product, I guarantee you're going to be wowed. Because right now when I saw it, I thought, yeah, that looks like a 90s pinball machine. And that's not a knock. That's a great thing. It looks like it could be released in the 90s, and I'm thinking they're holding something back, and it's going to be big. I'm just as excited as you are to see what that is, and I have faith that we will see that. When Not sure but again the big question people were saying and I asked this to Steven Bowden was why now Why are you releasing it at Houston And he said why not It solidifies us as a real company There it is We can make a pinball machine, but this is just the prototype. And I think the response was huge. I really do. I really agree. And, you know, the one thing that really perks up my ear every time I hear it is that they're wanting to bring a certain amount of quality to the hobby too. I think there's a lot of – I don't know. Even the voices that don't want to voice their opinions, I know people that just hold back from buying new in-box product right now because they're afraid of the stuff that they hear out there. They're afraid of the clear-code issues. They're afraid of – and those issues only might be one in 1,000 that they make of these. But there's that hesitation there, and I think a lot of people perk up their ears when they hear, we're going to make the play-thru so strong you can take a hammer to it and it won't even dimple. It won't even get a scratch. I think we're just... It's something we haven't heard in a while. Don't get me wrong. I like Stern. I like JGP. I like those guys. I like what they're putting out. As a person, I don't know, Jeff, if you're tech savvy at all, but some people that aren't tech savvy, they don't want to mess with the headache of what could be under the glass. They love these games. They want to have one in their house, but they don't want to get it in the house and then regret that they spent $6,000, $7,000 on these machines. Well, there's another thing. We don't know what the price point is. We know that Robert has said that pricing will be very impressive when it comes to deeper games, and there'll be different levels, too. Is this going to be the high-end game? I don't think so, but I don't know. So, again, no word on what the pricing will be, but they want to make a dent into the market for sure. Are they going to knock off Stern and Jersey Jack with one game? No, but they're going to put their foot in the market, and then that's the first thing you do. You get somebody liking that first game, and, okay, what's the next one? What's the next one? You know, have you ever played full throttle? I have not, no. none made it out to Utah that I know of okay I have only played it a few times and just recently twice once at the Sanctum and once with Bowen at Pintastic I really liked it it wasn't the deepest game but the flow and the shots were pretty good if this was more mass produced and more out there I would have been very curious what the next game was and it was Alien and I have played that and that is a fun game. Obviously, there's some technical problems too and you're worried about when parts go, but pretty good game. You know, if that company had a little more structure and was still around, they made some pretty good games, right? So that's one thing I think Deep Roots is doing is getting the structure in place. You know, they've got the people there that can make the games, but other companies we've seen come and go sadly didn't have the structure there. I think Deep Root's doing that. Well, I think in addition to the structure, they also have the financial seed money with Raw, which it's a big deal. When you're starting a company, most of the time they don't make money for the first five years. Sure, absolutely. You can see how much that is one huge thing that Deep Root's done is that they don't have to. They're not making it out of a guy in his garage trying to put something together. This is obviously Robert's passion, and he is willing to say, look, here's my wallet. Spend this money and make something good. And he has an experience in business, and so it's not his first time doing something like this, or at least doing a business. I think it's fair to say, you know, Robert's not putting all of his eggs into this basket that is pinball. Right. He's very diversified, and like you say, he certainly enjoys it too. Is this going to be the be-all and end-all if in year one, year two, they don't make money? No, that's kind of the structure that's in place. Listen, we've seen Stern and Jersey Jack and great companies like those also be bailed out, right? They maybe didn't have the structure or had to tighten up manufacturing. Whatever the case may be, everybody needs that kind of financial boost. that's the one thing it looks like Deep Root has. So now they're ahead of that game where others maybe struggled. I always think of Stern as a pinball company, but it's not. It's a lifestyle brand. We know that. It's not, too. And they've got to keep the line moving. So they've done an excellent job of keeping the line moving, keeping those people employed. If it's bringing out a vault, if it's making a unique custom game, like a Primus, let's say, or whatever the case may be, they've done an excellent job of that. So they've figured that out, and that's why they have a good stranglehold in the market. And other companies are also, Spooky is very smart. They know what their business plan is. J.J.P. knows, they've learned from their mistakes, just like we were talking earlier. You make a mistake, don't make it twice. Jersey Jack, like everyone, has made mistakes, but they've learned from them, and they just keep getting better. So that's great for the three of us and everybody in pinball. The more pinball companies that are doing well, the better for all of us. I also think when you talk about the quality of manufacturing, I'm actually not that spooked by it Because we live in this microcosm of the Internet and interconnectivity that has really evolved in the last five years. Five years ago, we didn't have all this, hey, I know someone who is – I'm connected to all these people who are across the country and across the world through pinball. I didn't have that five years ago. And I don't think that people recognize that when the games came out in the past, in the 80s, in the 90s, in the 2000s, that there were problems with those too. It's like a car manufacturer. You're never going to get a car that doesn't have problems. And knowing how to work with those problems, the distributors or at least the route runners, they would set up the machine and they'd have to tweak it and they'd have to do all this stuff. And so I'm not that concerned with quality because you're just seeing every time something comes out, something comes up, and then they fix it. But in a game that has a silver ball, a steel ball that's catapulting around inside a box with plastics, with wood, you're going to get some problems with it. And that's just part of the game. I agree. I mean, that was one thing this weekend with Raza, if we're using that as an example. They took a lot of data. I looked behind the pinball machine, and sorry for all those out there, I'm calling it a machine. I don't know if you want to call it a table, but I'm going with machine. They had two feeds. One was the power, and one was to take information and really get that data, what shots were being made, what were being missed, what was hit the most frequently, How did things stand up? Voltage, all that kind of stuff. They really, I only imagine, you know, it's a focus group they've never had. With whatever they've got in San Antonio, well, that pales in comparison to what they saw in Houston when there was a lineup of 560 waiting to play for 15 hours a day. So they got a lot of data information and air balls and plastics and targets and the great duck spinning thing, which was pretty neat. You know, they found a lot of things out too. And it's back to the drawing board for a few of those things. And I think that's why they kept saying over and over again, this is a prototype. They did something at the Houston Expo that because of recent online interconnectivity of people that they haven't done, but they used to do it all the time. They used to have all these test locations, and they'd put out these new games and just collect data or see things. And that's what they're doing. They're able to actually see it in a real-life situation. Well, what impresses me too is that they made a machine that isn't even going to be their final product because they wanted to get out there and get testing. I mean, who goes out and makes a full pinball machine that's – like they got the play field from Mirco. They threw it in a cab that they're not going to be using. It kind of blew my mind that they went to this length to put this prototype out for us to see. And so, I don't know, it's impressive that they went through that much work just to get some back feed or whatever you want to call it, feedback. There were a lot of eyes on that game, certainly from the consumer standpoint. The Deep Root employees were taking a lot of notes. some of the people that were doing coding some of the engineers were there vp's uh marketing of course Steven Bowden but i also saw other people there really getting a good look at it whether it be scott denisi from spooky Joe Balcer was taking good look at it from american mike vindicore who was with marco and stern he was there more than once so you know it certainly piqued the interest and I don't remember a game this year at a show that had for something that really wasn't even a launch you think of this entire year what show made people go wow I get to see that game it could have been Expo for Elvira it could have been Midwest I think they brought out Black Knight but it was released before if I recall but I've been to a lot of these shows I never saw anything like this and for a small show like Houston the only show I can think of is when Willy Wonka was unveiled at the show back in March I apologize I can't remember what show that was that was Midwest I apologize you're right that's the only thing I can think of and that's the thing too I've never heard of Houston Arcade Expo until they said that Roswell was going to be there I was like, oh, cool. So I don't know if this is a big show or whatnot to me from from the outside perspective. It's a relatively small show that I've never heard of that they're revealing this at. So I'm like, well, it's just put it on the map for me because we're getting to see a new product from a company we've never seen anything from. I guess I would add that when Jurassic Park came out, that seemed to that seemed to be a big release in my mind over the year. in addition to the ones you already mentioned. It came out on a stream. Deadflip certainly showed it, but they had a bunch of games at Pinbird. What a place to bring a bunch of games. So that was clever to do that. But it wasn't really launched. Like the first time we saw it was on a stream. Okay, that's fair. Yeah, it wasn't your stereotypical, hey, we're at a – okay, it wasn't what JJP did with Pirates. Yeah. at Pinball Expo. They controlled their own message and said, we're going to leak it in our own way or we're going to announce it in our own way. You're right. But that's the thing, though. This is a prototype. This isn't even a machine launch. It wasn't even a launch. This was a data collection. Yeah. You know, there are smarter marketing people than I'll ever be. So I've heard other people say, Why did they do it at Houston? They're in Texas. It's a drive away from San Antonio. The end of the calendar is coming. They did make a promise to show games in 2019. So now they've fulfilled that promise. Not to the volume that they originally said, but still, again, solidifying that, yes, we are a pinball company. Here's our game. Sure, it's a prototype. But now you're getting a taste of what we're working on. I'm sure this game, and I don't know this to be true, I bet you that game has been done for a year and tinkering here and there. Who knows, right? The making of pinball, it's not easy. I think everybody now agrees it's not easy. The refining it is the difficulty, the manufacturing. Those are the difficult things. But to get a whitewood shooting and stuff like that, probably the easier part. Making it accurate, making the shots good, that stuff's the hard part. But, you know, here's a whitewood. Here's something shootable. There you go. And Steve Ritchie brought this up when someone actually posted and saying, hey, do you guys know if you shoot here, it ricochets off and hits here and possibly up there? And Steve Ritchie chimed in. He said, yes, we actually deal with this when we're testing. Yeah, we deal with this by design that we look at rebounds and we look at secondary shots. And that was the first time it clued into me that, oh, it's not just a straight shot from the flipper, and then it bounces around and comes back to the flipper. And I'm probably a little naive in thinking that. My background is in mechanical engineering. That was my major in college. And so I should have been a little more aware of that. But that was the first time it clued me in that they take into account these secondary shots. so scott josh you saw the video i posted of raza and i had a bunch of people talk to me about that because to start multi-bowl you spell zombie by hitting that very target at the top but before i hit the letter e i would purposely go up the ramp and whether it be not a clean shot or giving it a little nudge to make it fall off the ramp by coming back down it hits a switch and ricochets and it hits these multipliers, three times, six times, nine times, that you can't hit with a flipper, but when you miss a ramp, it bounces off there. And when you do it three times, you get a three times play field multiplier. So I purposely did that before I hit the final E to start my multiball. And then once I did it, I would shoot up the ramp again to try to make it go to 6X. And Steven Bowden was standing beside me. He goes, you did it. You got it. You figured it out. so sometimes like you were talking about the Steve Ritchie banking shots that's I think what they have in mind with those kind of shots that you might how do you get there well you've got to find a way to do it and it wasn't that hard that's really cool have you seen anything like that before now that you mentioned I don't think I've seen something like that with the three times six times nine times with a when you fail to make a shot it still rewards you you know I'm saying well it didn't always hit it you had to kind of, when you fell off the ramp, if it had a good speed, just the trajectory of it would bounce into the three stand-ups. And by hitting it again three times, that's, I said to Steven, do I know my progress by holding both flippers, how close I am to getting three times? Like you think of ACDC, you know how many more bell hits you need before you get the two X multiplier. You don't in this game. So you know you're either, if it's not lit, you're one, two, or three shots away. So you just keep doing it until you see it lit, and then that's when you go for it. So I don't know. I thought that was pretty cool. I don't know about anything else. You know, I find in Deadpool, in the Colossus little turnaround there, that's kind of a difficult shot. You can't hit that with a flipper. You have to go around the orbit and hope it hits it. I think of Iron Maiden, And Elwin, who is the greatest of all time, you know, you've had him on the show. He put on the left in lane at the top that little cross stand up, which in pinball terms is the shats shot. By going up there, it gives you one of the X's for the play field multiplier. That's kind of unique that you really can't hit with a flipper unless you go up the in lane. Well, and people have said that that's got to be the hardest shot to hit nowadays. But see, we're starting to get new ideas. This is what I'm loving about pinball right now. We played it – at least I went and played a tournament this weekend, and a lot of it was the greatest hits of Bally Williams. And I was talking to a guy that rescued a cactus canyon from a boiler fire. and I asked him what made you decide to hold on to it? Because when he saved it, Williams and I went under, there wasn't many parts. And it's an unfinished game. Yeah, it's an unfinished game. It really is. And it's like, what made you decide to save this game? Because he's like, it was the play field. And so you look at those early 2000s and stuff, we had no parts. The games that were being churned out, they were decent games, but you could tell that they're a little more bare compared to what we have now. Nowadays, we've got TNA. We've got Iron Maiden, Jurassic Park. We've got Pirates of the Caribbean. Now we've got Raza. And they all have something new and fresh, it feels like. And it feels like the hobby is getting a breath of fresh air. And we're really starting to gain speed to see where this hobby can take off to. I know the last five years, it's really gained a lot of momentum. But now it's like the beast has been built. Let's see what it can do. It seems to be growing though Like in the 90s it had this big massive influx and then it just slowly died You could watch it die But now it just seems like with the last seven years it continues to grow and build upon itself And you're feeding the monster. You're getting more and more ideas where it's an arms race in some way. But at the same time, with J.J.P. coming in and stoking the fire with making Stern up their game, It seems that everybody is churning out high-quality stuff. That's a great example. When Wizard of Oz came out, do you think Stern was going to put out more games with DMDs? No, they knew they had to step it up at that point. I think Batman was the first one that came out, but they were already set to do a few DMDs, but they were quickly getting off that to go to LCD. And yeah, these kind of things, who knows what Deep Root does. Maybe that'll make JJP, Stern, everybody else, American, step up even more. It's great. You know, if somebody's got something that's great, you want to get it too. You know, I think one thing that always blew me away, this has nothing to do with pinball, but I remember going to Subway a lot and eating subs. Oh, yeah, this is going to be great. And then Quiznos came out, and they toasted theirs. Oh, this is great. This is the best thing ever. You know what Subway did? What Subway did was they bought toasters. See it, Quiznos? You know, again, good idea. We're going to take that. We're going to borrow that. You know, this is part. No, but actually, OK, I had a toasted sandwich today. And the funny thing is, we were at a we were at the sandwich shop and it's called Potbelly's. It's I used to eat it when I lived in D.C., but my wife was like, man, do you remember when we we we discovered toasted sandwiches at Quiznos? So seriously, we had this conversation about three hours ago. So I totally understand what you're saying. It's like you step up the game. And and when you're adding in when you're adding in new designers and new people making the rules, just imagine how that steps up the game. And you can look at the stuff that people even have been in the game for a long time. You look at everything that Dwight's come out with when he completely revamped Game of Thrones and completely revamped Ghostbusters. You can see the influences of all these new rule makers. You see Tim Sexton go in. You see Keith Elwin go in, and you're going to see what Steven Bowden is bringing to the table. And I think it's restoking the fire of these legacy guys and say, you know what? That's a great idea. Let me integrate it. Pinball companies always had Lyman Sheets, a great world-class player. Keith P. Johnson has been around. He is a lights-out player as well too. But you mentioned some people. when you can hire Keith Elwin, perhaps the greatest player of all time, Tim Saxon, an outstanding player, and certainly when it comes to modern games, and a coder. And when you have Zach Sharp, another great player, and the better of the Sharps. And you can bring him in to market. The joke's funny when I just keep going and I don't laugh. Yes. Wow, that cut really deep. So anyway, the better of the Sharps. When he got there in marketing, Joe Katz is a lights-out player. Bowen Kerins is now with Spooky, Steven Bowden. These companies have stepped up and have taken some of the best ideas from some of the best players. So that really helps us as far as long-term games. You know, you don't want to spend that much money on a game and then get bored of it. Well, that's not going to happen. And Steven Bowden, I'll give the example he always says, he wants the game to be fun for the novice and deep for the competitive player or the collector that always wants to get to that holy grail level. So I think that's a great way to go. I think Bowen's the same way. That's kind of his idea, too, of Spooky, and it's perfect. It's so great. And so here's the question. I'm going to take the over-under on this. over-under on, I'm going to say, two years when someone hires Raymond Davidson? You're going to take the over or the under? Because I guarantee at some point he's going to be part of the rules. I say under. I think we're – yeah. I will say it's completely up to Raymond. True, true. Okay, sure. But I would say that he's obviously passionate about this. If Raymond wants to? Yeah. I would bet at some point in two years, I'm predicting it now, in two years, Raymond's going to say, hey, by the way, I joined so-and-so, whether or not full-time or part-time as a rulemaker. I guess it really matters if he wants to leave the Washington area. He's certainly lived there a long time. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, he's also the number one player in the world, so he plays in a lot of events, too. When you work at a pinball company, you aren't always afforded the time to be able to travel and do some of these things. So that might bog him down a little bit, and maybe that's not something of interest now. He's still a very young man. So, yeah, I mean, I think he has the interest there. I think we talked about it one time. But listen, if he really wants to get a job there, he puts a resume in, and if they have an opening, who wouldn't want that guy in a position kind of like what Steven Bowden has? I agree. Okay, I'm going to – this is wonderful. I love the Raza talk, but I want to move on really quickly. A couple weeks back, I went to the arcade, and I can't get enough of the new Stern Jurassic Park. And I was asking the arcade owner, what are your thoughts on this machine? and the first thing he zipped right to was well the logos like the different color but it's tan instead of the white and red and then the game doesn't follow the movie like it should and to me it just kind of kind of threw me for a loop that was kind of the first two things he gravitates towards because the gameplay is fantastic and everything and so i i don't know why it popped in my head but jurassic park is kind of like creature from the black lagoon um maybe not so much because creature from the black goons, more of a drive in theater game that just happens to be featuring the movie creature from the black lagoon. And yet creature from the black lagoon is revered as this amazing game from the nineties, which it really is. It's one of my favorites, but I'm not getting this. Why are we complaining about not following the movie? I think, I don't know. What are your thoughts? Doesn't matter to me. It feels like I'm in the park. Maybe it's a part of the movie we haven't seen. I like the vehicle. I like changing the direction of your path. I like that you have to trap and catch the dinosaurs. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't have to follow the story of Jurassic Park. If you follow a story, isn't there an end to the story? Yeah. So then what do you do in the game if you come to that end? I guess you start back from the beginning like some of these games. I'm not interested in that. Yeah. I agree with you. I like the approach because the things that you want to be in the world, but you don't necessarily want to retread the same storyline that you've seen, especially if you love the movie. I know someone who actually had a Star Wars LE, and it was beautiful. He had amazing things to it. And eventually he said, I don't know. I just felt like I was seeing the same type of clips and it was the same, same parts of the movie that started getting stale. And so I didn't want the movie that I love to start getting stale because I kept seeing the same things. So when I think of think of Jurassic Park, I think this is in the Jurassic world and it's still it's almost like a parallel story that you're telling. And it's it's a free flow storyline. So you can do things your own way. It's not the, oh, well, you need to go to Jurassic Park and then you need to go and see the dinosaurs and then you need to have Ned break everything down and then you need to have the Tyrannosaurus eat the guy on the toilet. I like that it seems that you can flow through and make the story your own. I think it's amazing. And they made the right decision in securing the sound package because the music is what brings you into the world. So I think it's fine. I prefer it that way. Look, if you can't get the characters that Sam Neill, Laura Dern, and Jeff Goldblum played, what else are you going to do? So they've got Ned, the Wayne Knight. He'll be in with some voice at some point. Obviously, he wouldn't have been on the game at all. So we'll see that. That'll make it a little closer to the movie. But again, I feel like I'm in that world. It's good. Walking Dead is a spectacular pinball machine. It has nothing to do with the TV show, really. There's no storyline there, but it's a great game. Oh, yeah. One of the best. We've heard it multiple times from different people. I like your analogy. Sorry to interrupt. No, you're good. I love that analogy about Star Wars, that you're seeing those clips over and over again, and you don't want to get tired of them. That's a really good point, because that is an iconic movie. and yeah you don't want to take away from it by seeing that over and over again i like i like certain bands but if i heard their hit song over and over and over again that could be tiresome well that's what i heard a lot of people talk about i know marty had his iron maiden and sold it because he got really tired of hearing the same music and he was an iron maiden fan i i actually I love Iron Maiden, so I would be curious to see if it would have the same effect on me. I haven't heard the same thing about Metallica, but maybe it's just because the music is a little more muted and it's in the background as opposed to maybe being in the foreground. But there is something about making each game different as opposed to following the exact same path. If you follow the exact same path, that's a video game. And most of us have played video games, and I don't want to say moved on because it feels a little dismissive of video games. Video games are great, but they tend to follow a story arc, and you're right. When it's over, do you just want to drain your ball and see the credits go? If you completed Uncharted, are you going to play it again? Yeah. Probably not. Yeah. I guess it depends on how good the game is. I don't know. I have to revisit Ocarina of Time like every couple of years because it's Ocarina of Time. Well, I think it's just – it is just creating that environment where you have a good time and you have that connection. And even to some effect, Lord of the Rings, even though you're following different elements of the storyline, you're still – it's a mix and match of how you're doing it. And so it's been that successful one. But that was the big complaint about Ghostbusters and the original code is that it locked you into who brought the dog. You know, you always had to go there. And people want to feel, you know, it's a pinball machine. I want to be in control. I don't want to be the only one. I want to be able to choose different paths. I agree. I like it. Yeah. Linear is not usually a good thing in pinball. I mean, you have to be that way for something like TNA, and it works for TNA. The suspense, you really feel it as you try to get to that ninth reactor, but most games don't have that. I agree, and I think, honestly, we're going to see more and more nonlinear games being made because we're really geared towards a home market, and I think that's how you're going to stay inside of a home if you want your machine there because people want to feel like they're exploring the machine. so yeah I don't know I just I love this game so much I love Jurassic Park it's just such a good game and every time I step up to it I feel like I'm exploring the park and there's always something new and I've only spent 2-3 hours on the game and it's just fantastic every time I get to play it and I can't wait to see whatever topper Stern has up their sleeve the T-Rex comes down and eats you that's the catch seriously no So it's got to be amazing. If you look at it, they have figured out that this is a revenue stream that people are interested in. And so as opposed to these non-licensed independent people making these toppers, Stern can make these toppers. And some of the toppers that have come out recently have been amazing. I know some people aren't big topper fans, which is great because it's not vital to the game. You don't want the topper, don't buy it. I like looking at the eye candy. I like looking around and seeing things. So I'm even upgrading my Medieval Madness. I'm paying the $1,500 to upgrade my Medieval Madness to the Epic level. Well, okay. So the topper on – it's everything. So you get the topper. You get the expanded speaker panel. You get the light integration. And so, yes, everything I'm doing is completely cosmetic for my Medieval Madness, and I'm doing it because it brings something. it's the wow factor because I have the Attack from Mars LE and I look at that and I say yes, it's a step above what the original Attack from Mars was. So I'm looking forward to whatever topic or whatever topper that they're going to bring for Jurassic Park because I guarantee it will be awesome. That Attack from Mars topper was the game changer. You talked earlier about Stern seeing what JJP did with Wizard of Oz and the back screen will attack from Mars. And what Chicago did with that was just make everyone go, okay, you want a good topper? Nothing beats this. And then we've seen some great ones since. You mentioned Medieval Madness topper. I love that look. You know, the plastic stand-up ones now just don't cut it. I didn't think they were bad, but, you know, how do you compare Beatles or Guardians to Black Knight? Let's keep it within Stern. You know, Stern, that Black Knight topper is so exciting. It was the hit. I think that was a bigger hit at Expo than even the Elvira game. No, I agree. Yeah. I would agree. I actually do. I want to buy a Black Knight game because I think having that topper would be amazing. Get the pro. Yeah. No, I love the pro. I would take the pro. I've said this before, that if you have that emotional connection to the previous Black Knight games, then you probably want to get the premium in LE. Because Steve obviously had to design a game that incorporated so much of the feel of the historic game that that's what you're going to see. I don't have that connection. I didn't play the original Black Knight. It's not one of my grail pins. I enjoy playing it occasionally, but it's not my go-to. I love the Pro, though. The Pro because it's fast and flow, and it is Steve Ritchie at his best. I like the speed of it. Going up top was, you know, if you saw what Escher and Alex Kuzmarchuk did at Expo, it was not a good video for selling premiums of Black Knight. I'll tell you that right now. Now, that being said, Tim Saxon, who we mentioned earlier, a brilliant, brilliant guy. Don't think he didn't see that. and is probably going to, you know what, the next update, when you lose your ball, that flail is going to be closed. You can't go back up again and repeat and repeat and repeat. Or maybe loops will stop. Maybe you do one loop and then you have to hit a switch or you have to hit the lock shot because you're not getting the point value of doing the loops. Those are things that will be changed in code, and I think I have all the faith in Tim Sexton to do that for the Black Knight Premiums. But I also just love the speed of the pro. The pro is coming at you fast. That was one thing my friend who had the Star Wars, he talked about the speed of Star Wars. He said, I would play Star Wars and I would go to all the – he had that upstairs and he had the others downstairs. So all the Bally Williams great. We talked about him, Indiana Jones, Totem, Adam's Family, Twilight Zone. He said, I would get a grand champion score every time after I would finish training on Star Wars because it was such a – it was a training game. It was like swinging with a weighted bat. It seemed like everything else was easier. And I see Black Knight as being the next level of the Star Wars training game where you have to be really dialed into those shots because the shots aren't two-thirds up the play field. They're halfway there. Honestly, I haven't played much on the pro Black Knight. And I know there's one for sell around here for actually a really good price, but I just – I don't see – I haven't played it, so I have like nothing to say on it. Yeah, I'm saving up for that Jurassic Park that I know my friend is going to move on in six months. I can't say a bad thing about that game. I've played it a bunch. There's nothing that – there's nothing I would change on. I really I mean I guess you could say you want to see more on the artwork you described You know the logo and this map Yeah it I know it a part it It stands out when you see it at an arcade You know it Jurassic Park If you love that theme you going to put your dollar in it for sure So one question I have is with you, Jeff, you have seen this resurgence of pinball. I want to know your top three games that you love after ACDC. So I'm going to put ACDC and Wizard of Oz as kind of the second renaissance of pinball. Go. What are your top three games and why? Well, if I'm starting, I will say ACDC because the first time I played a pinball game in 15 plus years was, I think it was at Disney World with my kids. this would have been 2013 and they had spider-man and acdc there and i hadn't seen either of those i hadn't seen a pinball machine in years and that just got me all excited again and i had to find out more about this and then a friend talked about a league i got in the league found out about tournaments and then both feet were in so acdc has a special place in my heart's first new in box game I had. That'll be one of my top three games. There are better games than that, but for me personally, that's a game that doesn't leave my house because it really got me back into pinball, and I'm in absolute love with Steve Ritchie. We talked about Scott Danesi's Total Nuclear Annihilation. What I love about that game, is it the best game again? No, but it's a guy who had this dream, made a Whitewood, brought it to Expo, and then got it mass produced and was a huge hit for Spooky. Sold more than anything else. And now he's in high demand for his next game. So I also like the way that game shoots. It's certainly not the deepest game, but it's fun to play. It's a great adrenaline rush. So I think that one stands out to me a lot. and for games maybe let's just think this year um well it's too early to say raza because there's gonna be more in there i'll hold a place for it but it's not there yet um yeah jurassic park's pretty special i mean that's good i also enjoy Wonka a lot. I think that's a beautiful game. I think it's great theme integration. I don't completely understand it. I also don't understand Pirates of the Caribbean, but it doesn't matter. I don't have access to those, but I love playing them. They're very unique. They're fun to play in multiplayer games. It's tough to narrow it down to three. Okay, here we go. Guardians of the Galaxy the first time I saw that game the code was terrible but I looked at the shots and I'm like well that kind of reminds me of Metallica that kind of reminds me of Iron Man I don't have either of those games if I get Guardians I kind of get the best of both worlds and I really really like the shots and now the code's good that's I think one of Lonnie D. Ropp's best coded games I like the art package by Christopher Franchi So that's another game that really means a lot to me. Yeah. Well, that actually begs the question. You said it's not a perfect game. Does a machine have to be perfect to be well-received? No. Is there such thing as a perfect game? Maybe Jurassic. It really is pretty good. Oh, and I say that because I talk to, as you know, a lot of people. the only thing I hear is art, I hear Mrs. Pinn talk about that is not a Tyrannosaurus Rex that head's too big, that is a Brontosaurus things like that but it's pretty unique, it's fun to play it's intense, it was the final it was one of the final games this weekend in Houston and it was exciting to watch on stream there are tough shots there that's pretty close to perfect yeah well you uh you are in good company with number two because Josh Sharpe is the one who also said um is it too early to say jurassic park you know i was like well i if if josh has been doing this his entire life has said yeah i love that game that that tells me that it has to be downstairs in my basement at some point it's it's pretty special and again that's key del one's second game. His second. He's got a whole career ahead of him. Is anyone having a better year in pinball than Keith Elwin? Yes. From a player's standpoint, Johannes Altenmeier. From a manufacturer's standpoint, I would say no. Designing that game, that was pretty good. Keith, I mean, it's early here we are in november you're gonna see that win a few twippies yeah do you know what the twippies are i i know and i said this last year on another podcast i don't understand the twippies i get it now because i watched the ceremony and i watched zach and greg do an excellent job the production was great the fans were all into it so what i get is that the Twibby isn't for me or maybe you. It's really for the fans. It's really for their voice. It's a People's Choice Award. It's the People's Choice Award. That's what I was about to say. It's the People's Choice. It's the popularity contest, which is not bad. That's not being dismissive. That's how it is. Yeah. Yeah, you know, that was the one thing I talked to Jeff Patterson about it, and I think you'll see that actually this year, is the word best versus favorite. Because you can argue, you can't argue any of these people that win the Twippies. Those are the favorite games based on voters. Who knows about best, right? That's subjective. It's like art. You know what I mean? Who really knows? Shouldn't the best be one that's sold the most? Right. Well, last year, for most of them, it came down to Jersey Jack Pirates versus Iron Maiden. And Deadpool. Yeah, and Deadpool. You can make a convincing argument that the thing that hurt pirates the most was lack of availability. Sure. But if you look at how much the code was in that, how intricate the design that Eric put into it, there's so many things about it that it is an amazing game. And I don't fault people for voting for Iron Maiden because that's an amazing game too. And I actually voted for Iron Maiden because I gave them points for being able to mass produce it at a grander scale than Jersey Jack. but if you wanted to say no i like this i like pirates because of this this and that i i cannot i can't follow you i say you are right that is an amazing game and i love playing it too yeah they do that in the oscars too you know some of these independent films really people are voting that haven't seen all the movies so when you see a game like iron maiden or even deadpool They were out in the wild. A lot of people had those games, whether it be collectors, arcades. That wasn't the case with Pirates of the Caribbean because of the production problems, but now we're up to speed. They're out there. I know a long list of people that want to get one of those games. Every time I see Jersey Jack at a show, every single time somebody goes up to him and says, how do I get a Pirates? And he just kind of smiles. So he knows the demand is there, so we should see that. I imagine if people want to buy that, you've got to keep that line moving. All right. Once Wonka's have sold their part, maybe we'll get that back up and going. Who knows? Who knows? Yeah, I can see them going back to the well on that one. And in many ways, it had a bimodal distribution. So when it first came out, when they first announced it, it was all anybody can talk about. And there was a big thread on Pinside that talked about a dark night for Stern. I play on words, obviously. But it was how Jersey Jack Pirates really dominated the show, even though they had Batman 66, which was – we understand why it was rushed early. but then they fell into the dark night for JJP so to speak but since they were able to put him out yes it's a resurgence and I guarantee if I were the manufacturer and I can still make it cost effective to build that game I would say absolutely at some point we'll revisit it it's nice to have those options absolutely yeah they still have demand for Wizard. How old of a game is Wizard? Six years later. Yeah. That's crazy. 2013, I think. Yeah. And I have a Wizard, and that's great. It's different than other games. So that brings me to another question. Jeff, what is in your basement? And what is your collection capacity? I have 10 right now. I would say that's the capacity. although there's a couch my wife said you know we should get rid of that and she doesn't know what i'm thinking she's thinking to put a desk in there yeah right i'm thinking yes so i have i have 10 in there now i will go let me think i have acdc guardians simpsons pinball party fishtails world poker tour world cup soccer joker poker just bought a medusa Flight 2008 ball. And I'll tell you right now, after playing it at Houston, the first opportunity to buy Raza, I'm buying it. Yeah, I'm very interested in Raza. I want to see how it stacks up because I love the humor of J-pop games and I like the variety. Having a variety of games in your collection, I think really does mix things up and keeps things interesting. Keep in mind, I travel a lot to play in competitions. It's something that was kind of a goal of mine to see, you know, in the later stages of my life, how good a player I can become because I missed those 15 years in my 30s and 40s where I could have maybe done something and certainly not been number one, but certainly higher up in the ranks and maybe gone to a few world championships and things that, for a competitive guy like me, mean something to really go against the best and see how you can do against the best. It's just something that I'll look back on someday and go, yeah, that was a lot of fun. If you're a golfer, do you get to golf with Tiger Woods? No, we don't. But I can play a game against Keith or Bowen or Raymond and some of these people and say, you know, on this day, I held my own. So those are kind of exciting things. Yeah, that's really cool. So, yeah. Well, I hate to cut the conversation short, but we've run over our hour, and I need to go help my wonderful, beautiful wife with the babies. And plus, you've got to get your butt to bed, Jeff. You've got to get out to Florida in the morning. so well i have to go to florida because unlike you know places like utah that have 300 days a year of sun i live in canada where we're going to be in the dark ages now winter came a lot earlier this year like we've we've had snow plows out already this sucks we haven't even raked the leaves and the snow's on top of it so i gotta get some sunshine so uh if i can't go to Utah, which I've got to get there, by the way, because it's special to me. My son, Carson, was born during the 2002 Olympics, which, by the way, Canada won gold medal in hockey for the first time in 50 years. So Salt Lake City, Utah kind of means a lot to me. I got to get out there. So you're telling us you want the Olympics back here again. That was a great Olympics. Why not? Actually, okay, here's a little side note that the 2002 Winter Olympics were and still are the only profitable Winter Olympics. Yep. Every other Winter Olympics has lost money. For sure, 2010 in Vancouver and Whistler did. It was just logistically a nightmare, plus the Carl Weathers didn't cooperate. I went to, as a kid, I went to the 1988 Olympics in Calgary. It was kind of a gift from my mom, so we went out and saw a bunch there. Yeah, I can't imagine that was. I've been to Lake Placid. My wife and I spent the New Year's there. That's certainly a very special place, especially in Americans' heart, for the dream team winning hockey. But I enjoy the Winter Olympics much more than the Summer Olympics, even though I have a nephew who actually is on Team Canada, for the marathon. He's been in the last two marathons. But I love the Winter Olympics. I think it's because there's snow all the time. Yeah. Well, there's a reason why Canadians and the Finnish and all those guys dominate in the Winter Olympics because they actually have all the snow all the time. Well, cool, Jeff. How do we get a hold of you? How do you want people to listen to you? Give me your whole spiel, man. well first and foremost like subscribe and follow loser kid podcast i hope you already are i hope this isn't a one-off show for you because you guys do great work so first off do that get those soundcloud numbers up uh i'm on pinball profile on facebook on instagram on twitter and you can email me pinball profile at gmail.com and subscribe on whatever your favorite podcaster is. We'll have to get you guys on the show. I'm not saying that because you've got me on your show. Every time I see that loser kid hat, I'm like, I've got to get those guys on. I've got to get them on. Well, the good news is you'll have to send us your address and figure out a way so we can get you a loser kid pinball hat. Yep. Done, and I'll be the first Canadian. Eh? I don't want to break your heart. So yeah, you'll be the first one, Jeff. Oh, I'm not? Oh, darn. We got three up there. Well, we sent three to Rush, so that's how it works. Yeah, that's how it works. Oh, that's sweet. Very, very nice. And if you guys want hats too, contact us, and we'll be able to send them out. I'll tell you what. The next time I get that hat, I'll wear it at the next appearance wherever I am, whether it's a Papa event or whatever it is. I'll make sure I wear it proud on that stream. All right? Deal? Sounds like a deal. Are you coming to Texas Pinball Festival this upcoming in March? I've got that. I've got Indisc before that. I head off to Australia with my wife in January for a couple of weeks to see our friends from head to head. Perfect. I don't know what February has, but pretty quiet. But, yeah, TPF for sure in March. We'll see you there. You've got to go to that. Yeah, I'm great. Perfect. I'm just trying to figure out what day is the best to go. Do you fly in Thursday night and then you're there for Friday? Or do you fly in on Friday and just kind of get there and mosey? Do you know? I'll tell you right now, I'm probably flying in Tuesday night to San Antonio. And then I'll find a way up to, where is it, Fresno? Frisco, yep. Frisco, my bad. No, you're fine. I'll go up to Frisco. So, yeah, I'm going to hit San Antonio, hit Deep Root the 25th, and then the show, I believe, starts on the 27th. It's such a good show. Last year was my first year, too. Awesome. Well, we'll be there. Like Jeff was saying, if you want to get a hold of us, you should like, subscribe, whatnot. You can contact us on Facebook. Also, if you want to email us, loserkidpinballpodcast at gmail.com. And really quickly, I want to just do a couple of shout-outs. We did a tournament this weekend. I want to shout-out to Landon Orr. Thanks for listening to us. And we hope you have safe travels. He's moving from Utah over to North Carolina. Steven Strom, the guy that kicks all of our butts at the tournaments, he's moving away, which a lot of us are sad. But he's moving down to Vegas. So safe travels to you, my good sir. And Caleb Townsend, he is moving up to Michigan. We're losing all of our league buddies, and it's very sad. But we hope safe travels for all you guys, and we really appreciate you listening to the show and all the feedback you give us. So anything else you want to put in there, Scott? No, I think it's good. I look forward to seeing you in about two weeks. Awesome. Give us the last word, Jeff. Loser Kid Podcast brought to you by Quiznos. They toast their stuff. Yes. Thanks again. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 46847e55-79dd-40d5-beb7-b9d7f35ef831*