# Avatar! Judge Dredd! Saw! Murderous Insects! | Expo Part 2 **Source:** Bash Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2025-01-20 **Duration:** 55m 48s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.bashpinball.com/2025/01/20/expopart2/ --- ## Analysis Bash Pinball hosts discuss their Expo experience, focusing on visits to Electric Bat Arcade in Phoenix and gameplay impressions of Avatar and Judge Dredd. They praise Judge Dredd's music, responsiveness, and value, and offer detailed reactions to Avatar's complex layout, multiple flippers, and innovative design. The episode includes personal anecdotes about scorpions and dog hair in ears. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Judge Dredd is ranked high on their Williams-era WPC list alongside The Shadow — _Host states Judge Dredd is 'one of the highest ones on my wpc you know williams era list like that and the shadow'_ - [HIGH] Judge Dredd machines can be found under $4,000 regularly — _Host mentions 'you can get them under 4000 pretty regularly' and describes it as 'one of the best values'_ - [MEDIUM] Avatar has six flippers total — _Host asks 'How many flippers are in that thing, if you count the bottom ones? Oh, man. There's like six flippers'_ - [HIGH] Avatar features multiple ball locks including one under the playfield — _Host describes 'an upper left orbit shot that goes to a ball lock under the play field' and another separate ball lock_ - [MEDIUM] Electric Bat hosts league nights on Tuesday with approximately 100 participants — _Host mentions 'the biggest single location league night in the world right right yeah they got like 100 people'_ - [MEDIUM] Scorpions in Arizona are not typically lethal unless victim is severely allergic — _Host researches and concludes 'you can't typically die unless you're like severely allergic or you have some other'_ - [HIGH] Avatar has Williams-like design philosophy with mystery elements — _Host describes 'It does have that Williams element of you walk up to the game and you see stuff and you're like, I want to do that'_ - [HIGH] Jersey Jack put more decorative effort into their booth than Stern — _Host notes Jersey Jack 'had a cool little upright little banner' with 'dandelion-looking lights' and 'Avatar in there' in 'an enclosed room' vs Stern being 'pretty stripped down and simple'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I am embarrassed that I ever even had a single negative thought about that game. That game is incredible, dude." > — **Host 1 (about Judge Dredd)**, N/A > _Demonstrates significant opinion reversal after experiencing well-maintained game vs poorly-setup location version_ > "It does have that Williams element of you walk up to the game and you see stuff and you're like, I want to do that." > — **Host 1 (about Avatar)**, N/A > _Articulates design philosophy comparison connecting Avatar to classic Williams aesthetic_ > "It's not like a normal jersey jack as far as the play field and the shots and the layout right right i want to know what you thought first like you like it like immediately" > — **Host 2 (about Avatar)**, N/A > _Acknowledges Avatar represents departure from typical Jersey Jack design patterns_ > "I think it would take a lot of time and i don't know where the code is with that game but it seemed like there was a whole lot of modes a whole lot of different multi balls" > — **Host 2 (about Avatar)**, N/A > _Notes complexity and uncertainty about code maturity level of Avatar_ > "And maybe it wasn't my favorite right away. Maybe it was confusing a little bit. Maybe it seemed a little too complicated. But it's also exciting because I want to figure it out." > — **Host 1 (about Avatar)**, N/A > _Positive reassessment frame for complex design despite initial confusion_ > "It's kind of reinstilling excitement for me with the future of pinball and games. It doesn't feel assembly line per se. It doesn't feel like phoned in." > — **Host 1**, N/A > _Broader industry sentiment about Avatar and Jersey Jack's direction_ > "I expected kind of more of the same sort of variations on a Pat Lawler or Steve Ritchie layout." > — **Host 2 (about Jersey Jack expectations)**, N/A > _Reveals surprise that Avatar broke from expected Jersey Jack design pattern reliance_ > "Chris Franchi, he nailed it. It looks great. It looks amazing." > — **Host 1 (about Evil Dead artwork)**, N/A > _Early praise for Evil Dead game artwork by designer Chris Franchi_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Electric Bat Arcade | organization | Pinball arcade venue in Phoenix, Arizona run by Kale and Rachel; hosts Tuesday league nights with ~100 participants; described as 'legendary' local establishment with tiki bar, multiple quality machines | | Kale | person | Co-operator/host of Electric Bat Arcade in Phoenix; met with hosts during Expo trip | | Rachel | person | Co-operator of Electric Bat Arcade Phoenix; provided hospitality during hosts' visit | | Avatar | game | Jersey Jack Pinball game featuring complex layout, 6 flippers, multiple ball locks, mini playfield, featured prominently at Expo with organized queue system | | Judge Dredd | game | Stallone-based pinball machine owned by host's father; praised for guitar-based music, responsiveness, and value; featured at Electric Bat Arcade | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Manufacturer featured at Expo; displayed Avatar with decorative effort including themed lighting and enclosed demo area; had smaller booth footprint than Stern | | Stern Pinball | company | Competitor manufacturer at Expo with 4-5x larger booth footprint than Jersey Jack; described as having 'pretty stripped down and simple' decorations | | X-Men | game | Jersey Jack game mentioned as comparison point for Avatar's innovative layout and immediate wow factor in gameplay | | The Shadow | game | Williams-era game ranked high alongside Judge Dredd on hosts' WPC list | | Chris Franchi | person | Artist/designer at Spooky Pinball praised for Evil Dead artwork; hosts mention wanting to see Evil Dead before other potential licenses | | Evil Dead | game | Upcoming Spooky Pinball game; hosts received preview images from Glenn; described as having excellent artwork by Chris Franchi | | Glenn Wechter | person | Shared image/preview of Evil Dead game with podcast hosts via text | | Godzilla | game | Machine at Electric Bat Arcade; first game that got host into pinball; described as 'one of their worst earning games' | | Giant Mnemonic | game | Machine at Electric Bat Arcade; played by hosts during their visit | | Baxter | organization | Local arcade in Carrboro/Chapel Hill, North Carolina where Judge Dredd was initially played and poorly set up (dark, unresponsive) | | Pat Lawler | person | Pinball designer; hosts note Jersey Jack has relied heavily on his layout designs for multiple games | | Steve Ritchie | person | Pinball designer; Elton John mentioned as classic Steve Ritchie layout; hosts note Jersey Jack has similar reliance on his designs | | Spooky Pinball | company | Boutique manufacturer mentioned alongside discussion of Texas Chainsaw and Looney Tunes layouts representing next-level game evolution | | Elton John | game | Jersey Jack game using classic Steve Ritchie layout pattern | | Chicago Pinball Expo | event | Major industry event where hosts played Avatar, Judge Dredd, and other machines; featured Jersey Jack booth with Avatar queue system and promotional filming | ### Topics - **Primary:** Avatar gameplay and design complexity, Judge Dredd re-evaluation and appeal, Jersey Jack booth experience and decorative effort, Electric Bat Arcade visit and community impact, Evolution of pinball game design across manufacturers - **Secondary:** Avatar design departure from typical Jersey Jack patterns, Evil Dead upcoming release and expectations, Future of pinball industry sentiment ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.82) — Hosts express enthusiasm about Avatar and Judge Dredd, appreciation for Electric Bat Arcade hospitality, and optimism about future of pinball game design. Some initial confusion about Avatar's complexity balanced by positive anticipation. No significant negativity detected. ### Signals - **[community_signal]** Electric Bat Arcade hosts league nights as major community hub with approximately 100 regular participants (confidence: high) — Host mentions 'the biggest single location league night in the world right right yeah they got like 100 people' and describes Kale's hospitality and booth expansion - **[competitive_signal]** Multiple flipper designs on Avatar (including mini playfield flipper) require adaptation from traditional two-flipper gameplay (confidence: medium) — Discussion of Avatar's 6 flippers and mini playfield targets representing learning curve for players unfamiliar with extra flipper positioning - **[design_philosophy]** Avatar's complexity creates barrier to immediate enjoyment; requires extended playtime to understand (confidence: high) — Host notes 'it felt like it's going to be a really fun deep game' but also 'I couldn't really get into it yeah because it was just too much like i need to like put this thing in my house' - **[event_signal]** Jersey Jack conducted promotional filming at Expo with Avatar players for marketing content (confidence: high) — Hosts describe Jersey Jack cameraman with 'pretty legit like broadcast film camera' filming them discussing Avatar, with High Five pose attempt - **[market_signal]** Judge Dredd positioned as high-value vintage machine regularly available sub-$4,000 (confidence: high) — Host recommends Judge Dredd as 'one of the best values' and states 'you can get them under 4000 pretty regularly' - **[product_strategy]** Avatar represents deliberate departure from typical Jersey Jack layout patterns, signaling design evolution (confidence: high) — Host notes Avatar 'It's not like a normal jersey jack as far as the play field and the shots and the layout' and another host acknowledges 'I expected kind of more of the same sort of variations on a Pat Lawler or Steve Ritchie layout' - **[sentiment_shift]** Hosts express renewed optimism about future of pinball despite initial complexity concerns (confidence: high) — Host states Avatar 'kind of reinstilling excitement for me with the future of pinball' and 'doesn't feel assembly line per se' or 'phoned in' - **[sentiment_shift]** Host's significant re-evaluation of Judge Dredd from dismissive to enthusiastic after experiencing well-maintained machine with upgraded LEDs (confidence: high) — Host explicitly states 'I am embarrassed that I ever even had a single negative thought about that game' and contrasts experience at Baxter (poorly set up) vs father's house (upgraded LEDs, hard top) --- ## Transcript dude the other day i felt a tickle in my ear okay this is gross i don't know if i've told you this before but when i was watching guardians of the galaxy the first one i felt this pain in my ear okay at first it was just like uh it was uncomfortable you know every now and then you'll get a little like pain or whatever in your ear and it's just like a millisecond it goes away and you're fine yeah or your ears pop or whatever this was different and it kept getting worse and then it started to feel like extreme pain in my ear stabbing pain like stabbing pain like repeated stabbing pain and i had to get up and leave the theater oh my god and i was like what is going on but i went to urgent care they flushed my ear out with water they had like a little salute thing to like shoot water in your own and the lady's like oh there's your problem you got a bug in your ear oh my god yeah what kind of bug it was a silverfish yeah i hate those things oh my those things just the way they scurry away and when you smush one you get like a weird dust like bug dust all over it and yeah they leave like a powder behind it's disgusting anyway yeah the night before that we had a house in apex that we had been renting and i was selling it and so the previous tenants had kind of trashed the place so i i was sleeping on the floor oh my god in this house that had been like really disgusting for the last two years and i'm sure that's why there were probably just silverfish everywhere that came out at night the house is basically a silver it's a silverfish farm yeah like a silverfish factory or nest or something but the reason i thought of that is because the other day i started feeling a twitch in my ear again and it was kind of reminding me that i was like a similar i was freaking out a little bit dude and so i got a q-tip and i was like don't tell me that i was like oh god you know maybe it's just some you know whatever piece of dust and um turns out it was uh a pickle's hair much better so my little doggy he's shedding a lot right now sure and it was all up in there it was like poking my eardrum and it took me a while to fish it out but eventually it came out it was like this long dog hair not that long it was like an inch long or something that was all jammed into my ear good boy but at least it wasn't a silverfish i'll take a pickle's hair any day over actually most things but definitely a silverfish yeah those things are disgusting man i i yeah i almost wonder if i should put that on the podcast because it's going to be very triggering for a lot of people i don't tell many people that story actually because it does kind of freak people out this needs to make it in yeah that's a great story by the way i guess this is the expo part day one day still on day one still we still haven't made it past day one yeah part two yeah we're trying to bring you like a full comprehensive experience of what it was like yeah for us to experience expo yeah yeah for the first time so before expo you went over to Don Mr. Don's dad Don's dad's place Yeah In AZ Yeah Foenix Foenix And it's only What it was like 20 minutes Yeah it was Basically You take a right turn A left turn A right turn You drive for like 20 minutes And you're an electric bat So you know I guess Phoenix Is my pinball hometown Technically because that's where my pinball self was born That's where it originated That's where I got my pinball start So if you don't know my backstory, I think episode one, we kind of went over how we got started with pinball. And yeah, it was through my dad. So this trip, I was able to line it up to take some time off from work and spend time with my dad. And then on the way home, stop at Chicago. And I met up with you. Yeah. Quick stop in Chicago for Expo. Right. It was awesome. It was kind of like a pinball full circle slash like all, I don't know, it was all pinball. essentially right to some degree yeah it was really great man a two-week pinball vacation that wasn't really a vacation yeah yeah yeah yeah um but it was great man like i had a really good time seeing my dad i feel like i this was like first time that maybe the padawan surpassed the sensei you mean like in a like skill wise yeah yeah oh is he that good he's pretty good really okay but i mean this is like the first time that i felt like man i like i got him oh like there's He's not coming back from this. He just got a pristine Judge Dredd. Dude, let me tell you, I am embarrassed that I ever even had a single negative thought about that game. That game is incredible, dude. I remember when we were first starting to talk about pinball, I was like, this Judge Dredd game is ranked pretty high and it's pretty cheap and you were pretty dismissive. You were like, I've played that before. it's because i played it at baxter yeah and it was set up terribly yeah right baxter our local arcade here in carborough slash chapel hill north carolina it just wasn't set up right it was super dark i couldn't really see very well this one was like the one of my dad's house was tricked out you know upgraded leds you could see everything great it was it had some kind of hard top i can't remember exactly what it was but it was nice it was very responsive it felt like a new game it was great the freaking music dude oh man i was humming like little guitar riffs in my head you know yeah i'm trying to think of how it went the song it was great i remember that guitar lead yeah dude it's got like legit good guitar playing on it it's great it's not um it's not like all midi'd and synth it's like real legit guitar riffs which is pretty cool for that like that must have been pretty early on to to even be able to have like cd quality music or whatever yeah and it actually sounds great like it does it does sound like real guitars it sounds real and like totally you could totally vibe man and like great melody and just like wailing yeah yeah but not overdoing it either it's like tasteful yeah it was dude it's like it's a great game i yeah if you haven't played a judge red game go go well it's gonna be hard to find a good one but try it try to find a good one and it's It's totally worth it, especially if you can hear the music and the call-outs. Even little modes are great, man. There was a bunch of cool little modes that have this charm to them. So what about the wide-bodiedness of it? Honestly, I couldn't even feel it. I think his was set up a little bit steeper. To keep it from being floaty. And it felt like a really fast, punishing, flowing game. And it's funny because, like Judge Dredd, the game literally punishes you. It's crazy. like hard rejections like it's awesome man it's really really fun it just makes you want to keep trying to do better i mean it's like it was like that you know yeah that i think i really want to get that game because it it does seem like it does seem to be one of the best values because you can get them under 4 000 pretty regularly and it's like a i fairly great game i told my dad he was like we talked on the phone recently and he was like yeah you know i really haven't been able to do much better you know because i got on the board yeah right and he hasn't been able to get on there yet and uh he was like yeah i'm not really having any luck and i was like listen do not get rid of this game oh yeah do not get rid of this game because i dude we need that game are we gonna buy it from him right we have to okay it is in such good condition everything about it is great dude the cabinet like the whole thing it's it literally looks and feels like a brand new game somehow man but yeah and that was tons of fun dude that game it's one of the highest ones on my wpc you know williams era list like that and the shadow yeah like there's just a couple games from that period that that i i want so bad and now for an important message look at all the people Billy, what's the matter? I, I... Billy! My friend passed out. Help me get him up. Never lift the head of a person who's fainted. Airtight. Keep him flat and raise his legs. Now loosen his clothes and use a wet cloth. What happened? You passed out. Remember, if someone faints... Never lift their head. You got it. Now we know. And knowing's half the battle. G.I. Joe! And now, back to the show. oh yeah yeah i was trying to line up the trip to electric bat right yeah i just texted kale because they're having like a like a i think tuesday nights they have like their league night right and it's like the biggest single location league night in the world right right yeah they got like 100 people and i was trying to make it you know it's hard because i want to spend time with my dad and like he gets tired because he's a little bit older and yeah i mean i'm making him sound old he's not really old but you know it's like family time versus you know he's not he doesn't really hang out at like a barcade or bar with pinball games or he has his own stuff he does now but we did watch the sylvester stallone movie which was horrendous but 100 worth the watch right yeah well fortunately they they were really smart to not use that like property i'm glad they didn't right yeah it would have been a much worse game this game is awesome it's totally original yeah the artwork is great and it's like full of like meme worthy like image and it's beautiful it's like comic style but kind of dark it has these weird almost like spawn remember spawn yeah okay more you know what i mean because it's like comic booky and a little darker yeah it was great man the color schemes were great like the yeah it was call outs are really good on that game too everything about that game is is very it stands out to me as well man it's one of those playfield with the like kind of middle flipper thing i'm a sucker for those like middle of the playfield flippers like swords of fury and uh it's a tough that's a tough one man i think it's so much fun to have that flipper there it just changes the game so much how it plays and shoots it does it does and my and that's one of the things i think my dad doesn't like because he's not used to like the upper flipper action right so interesting yeah yeah you gotta get used to that any game that has more than just the bottom two flippers with the exception of like every single pat Lawler game that has that flipper on the right that shoots to that ramp to like the side ramp you can go from one of those to the other and they all kind of feel the same but most games when they have extra flippers it's kind of a whole new thing you have to learn they're angled different they're in a weird spot you're shooting at something from a different position there's like an extra thing your brain has to do you have to take your brain off of autopilot yeah you have to like think a little bit more about what you're doing and where the ball is but yeah man it was it was great and I'm really glad he bought it, man. And we spent tons of quality time, bonding time just playing that game. And we figured out together, you know, like just playing it without reading the instructions. He would play, I would play, he would play, I would play. We were like helping each other figure out, you know, like what the shots were, what the call outs are. And I think a lot of those 90s games are perfect for that. You can easily pick it up and just pay attention and you'll figure it out by like an hour. You pretty much know where to go, what you have to do it's very repeatable yeah yeah and it tracks because he doesn't like a lot of the new games oh yeah yeah okay they're a little complicated right so yeah so we should talk about electric bat yeah yeah it was freaking awesome dude like i so and i ended up i did go with my dad he's got a vehicle right so he was like did you guys take the dune buggy no no no no it is street legal oh really so technically we could have yeah yeah why not um you know i would always take the dune buggy you know i think uh yeah i was afraid to be too cool yeah no but um yeah man it was really cool like i ended up hitting up kale on instagram right we figured out a time in the day and i ended up going out there a little bit earlier so it wasn't quite evening yet it was late afternoon and he met up with us and dude i really enjoyed it man the vibe it's like an old venue slash bar pretty like not old but just kind of like quote-unquote legendary to the area like a well-known establishment it was just cool man he kind of gave me the rundown of like how they expanded and like where they started and all the games were freaking awesome man like the decoration the vibe they had like a little tiki bar set up it was it was great man i really wish i could have spent an actual weekend evening or something where I could have gone to that league night. Yeah. I did get to play with Kale a couple games and with my dad a couple games. Oh, I showed my dad Godzilla for the first time, which is cool. Oh, they had a giant mnemonic, dude. Oh, really nice. That was awesome. We played giant mnemonic a couple times because that was the first game that got me into pinball. Yeah I remember that like one of their worst earning games Like aw Yeah so it was cool to play John and Monique with my dad because we hadn played it since I was like 15 which is freaking awesome man That was great. Bought a couple shirts. Super cool, man. Like, I really enjoyed it. Yes, and thank you for the shirt, by the way. Yeah, yeah, you're welcome, man. It's a cool shirt. Oh, yeah, which glows in the dark. Remember the last night of Expo? Yeah. Because we shared the hotel room, right? Yeah. You were wearing this shirt and like you turn the lights off and all I can see is the electric bat logo like that glowing green. Glowing logo in the dark. Yeah. It's cool, man. It's not just a little glow in the dark. Nice job, guys, with that shirt. Yeah, it's rad. That's awesome. Yeah, man. I wish I could have stayed there for longer than like an hour. I'm really grateful and thankful to Kale and Rachel for the hospitality. Congrats on the space and the place. Just being cool and I don't know, man, like I really respect the work that it took to get there. and the ongoing, continual, never-ending work. Right, the maintenance. You can tell that they really care about the community and the people. Yeah, man, I really enjoyed it, and I really wish we had something like that here. Anyways, yeah, I think that's it, man. I really just wanted to go over that. Oh, I almost got stung by a scorpion, which was interesting. Are they prevalent in them parts? Yeah, yeah. The last time I was there, I also got stung by a scorpion almost. It was crazy. I'm literally sitting there talking to my dad in the garage. He's smoking a cigarette and he goes, Hey, pick your feet up. And I was like, what? Lift your legs real quick. And I was like, what? And I looked down and literally where my foot was, was a freaking scorpion, dude. So then he grabs his fly swatter, right? Swats it but misses. On the upswing, the scorpion had latched on to the fly swatter, right? Okay. and it disappeared so it was not on the fly swatter it was not on the ground anymore where the f**k was the scorpion and for like the next 30 minutes dude i was terrified you just were you guys looking for it yeah yeah and it was dark yeah you know like it was you know the garage at night so like we had like one or two lights on uh-huh you know like it was nice outside because it's not so hot yeah and i'm i'm terrified because where is it like is it in my hair is it on the chair i didn't have shoes on anyways we found it though okay it was definitely dead but for a moment there i i thought i was gonna like get stung for real i got a picture of it too i'll show you sure that's pretty unpleasant yeah but then i researched it and i guess you can't typically die unless you're like severely allergic or you have some other yeah stuff it's just like a bee sting i don't know why as a kid up until now at 36 i always thought like a scorpion was lethal yeah i don't know why i thought that yeah i mean even black widows and brown recluses and stuff are very, very rarely lethal. I thought until today that all of those guys were lethal. Now, that being said, I knew somebody, like an acquaintance's mom that supposedly died of a black widow bite when I was a teenager, so there's that. I think there's probably extenuating circumstances probably when that happens. I guess if you get stung by a scorpion, you're probably good. Yeah, maybe if you get stung in the heart. that would be watch your hearts guys don't be like prone on the ground shimmying across the desert so inevitably we had to play avatar avatar avatar that's i don't know why why i said it like that Avatar. Avatar. You know, there was a decent line for Avatar. They had kind of an organized system. It was like a queue and then like, I don't know, eight or nine of the machines. Yeah. And then you could kind of wait in one line and then go to the next open machine. I was satisfied with the queue system. I mean, it was like a single line. Yeah. And they had kind of like a semi-attendant that was like, hey, like waving him. Here you go, sir. Kind of directing people if you were taking too long or you weren't paying attention, right? Like, here's the next machines opened up. Yeah. With the wave of the hand. Yeah, like a hostess. Because I definitely was distracted for a moment. It felt like a really long line when we first walked up because I think all the machines had three or four player games going. Right, right. So that was a little bit of bad luck. But for the most part, the line moved pretty quick and you could play that game without too much effort. What do you think about the actual quote-unquote booth or Jersey Jack display? I mean, they didn't have nearly as big of a footprint as Stern, obviously. Like, Stern, from a square footage perspective, had probably four or five times as much space as Jersey Jack. Yeah. I don't, I'm trying to remember the decorations and stuff. Yeah, that's what I was asking, because I remember thinking, like, wow, okay, they actually put a little bit of effort in, like, you know, some of, like, the decorations. They had a cool little upright little banner. They had a little enclosed room. I think they had Avatar in there as well. Yeah. In a darker setting, right? Like an enclosed room kind of thing. Yeah. Those little dandelion-looking lights that were hanging up that I think were Avatar. They look like jellyfish to me. Yeah. Like little floating jellyfish. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense. The stern area was, in comparison, it was pretty stripped down and simple. Right. like the games but with tons you know in terms of like decoration you're 100 right man you know jersey jack put in a little extra effort to add some little designs okay okay yeah yeah so they definitely had a little more flair you know that's i how much does that matter not a lot because it's a big, bright build. If you dim the lights in there, probably their decorations and stuff would have looked really cool. Yeah, that's true. It's cool that they put in the effort. It tracks with the style and how they make games and all that stuff. The little details, right? The more showy, creative, and artistic. It's like going the extra mile. Yeah, I was into it. I liked it. Yeah, it was cool. I appreciated it. Thanks, Jack. Yeah, thanks, Jack. jersey jack you know we got a few games in yeah um i wouldn't say i mean let's be real we played it probably like 10 as much as we played x-men but yeah as far as the game itself the gameplay okay but man there is a lot going on in that game there is a lot going on in that game it's not like a normal jersey jack as far as the play field and the shots and the layout right right i want to know what you thought first like you like it like immediately right you walk up to it put your hands on the buttons and you look at the screen, you hit start. What's your first impression? What do you think? It does have that Williams element of you walk up to the game and you see stuff and you're like, I want to do that. You see that under the play field, little mini play field. How do I get down there? And then you see a weird looking ramp that has a weird return and a weird other ramp that kind of crosses over with it. And then I kind of want to see everything. and it really had that mystery element that I think is lacking from a lot of modern games but in some ways it's like Jersey Jack's X-Men to me that's how I was thinking of it because we had just played X-Men and it's like whoa this is new, different and futuristic next level and this was kind of Jersey Jack's foray into similar territory okay as far as like doing something new and different i i thought it was exciting like it didn't have the immediate wow factor with the shots that x-men does yeah right correct but there's a ton of stuff to do so it feels to me less immediately gratifying than like x-men i agree but it feels like it's going to be a really fun deep yeah game i you know what i have a very similar opinion and it's kind of the same takeaway that i have and i i think it's funny because it's like though all those things are the same reason that i kind of like that would be my only negative feedback yeah because i couldn't really get into it yeah because it was just too much like i need to like put this thing in my house in my basement like lock myself in for like a week yeah you know get get some takis get some whatever right like yeah and just like figure this thing out, right? But overall, I loved it, man. I thought it was really fun and, again, innovative and just like it was cool to see the new stuff, like the new things, right? The colors, man, the lighting, like the whole visual aesthetic of it was beautiful. It seemed challenging, but not excessively difficult, but it seemed challenging, maybe more so than some Jersey Jack games. There's a ton of shots. There's four or five. How many flippers are in that thing, if you count the bottom ones? Oh, man. There's like six flippers. in it but yeah it's too much to take in in a couple games yeah so we really would have to probably play it a lot more and actually it's set up pretty well at our local spot so that's definitely a game i'm gonna be diving into more uh part in the uh yeah isn't there like a dive dive dive shot yeah which is actually a cool shot it's cool because that's what leads down to the right sebastian the crab which i thought was cool right like the same shot diverts in like a vertical way so it'll either go under or over. Yeah, and I thought the description in their marketing materials, the promo video that we saw, that it's a balance of stop-and-go gameplay and flowy gameplay. And I thought that was cool. There's so much going on in the game that if it was much faster than it is already, it'd probably be too much. I think they did strike a pretty good balance. yeah i think that'd be a great game to have at home man and just figure out play with like your family friends whatever and like i would really enjoy to sit down with like you or anyone and just like have like a session you know and just like hang out whatever get some food get some drinks and just like chill yeah figure out this freaking game you know what i'm saying yeah yeah i think it would take a lot of time and i don't know where the code is with that game but it seemed like there was a whole lot of modes a whole lot of different multi balls i got like two multi balls i don't even know what i did hallelujah yeah the the yeah there was several multi balls happening do you remember the ball lock that was under like in the sub play field yeah it's like an upper left orbit shot that goes to a ball lock under the play field how the heck did i even go in there yeah that little under the play field ball lock is pretty cool i was locking balls and it wasn't even that was a totally different ball lock yeah yeah yeah right right and what the heck was that and then the of course the little mini play field with the crab i still don't get that by the way how to do it how how to win oh yeah i'm not i didn't figure it out i hit all kinds of stuff and i was like there's like a little orbit and then there's little targets yeah yeah it's fun to play it's very fast it's very fast i just couldn't figure out exactly the same with the the one right above it where you have to actually select the target yeah you're kind of picking the target while it bounces off of a pop bumper kind of so it's like an inverted like you don't flip you target right like you choose the target instead of the flipper it's actually kind of like one of the homebrews had done something right right which was interesting but i still couldn't really with the short time we had i couldn't really figure out exactly how to how those sections worked right and i don't it was hazy and it was quick like it moves pretty quick through there and like anyways but but i like that you know it reminds me of it reminds me of like a williams game you know and because surprise because that's the thing about those williams games you see this thing like Twilight Zone or whatever you see that like or the shadow that upper left that upper play field you're like oh man what the heck and then you spend all this time figuring out you know familiarizing yourself with the game you finally get up there and then it's over in like one second so then you gotta do it again it felt like that in a good way there's a lot of stuff to do it's all kind of challenging to get to and it's all pretty satisfying you want to do it again and learn more about it So yeah, I thought that game was great. I thought it was cool too, man. I think going back to one of our prior conversations, it's kind of reinstilling excitement for me with the future of pinball and games. It doesn't feel assembly line per se. It doesn't feel like phoned in. It doesn't feel like any other game I've played. And maybe it wasn't my favorite right away. Maybe it was confusing a little bit. Maybe it seemed a little too complicated. But it's also exciting because I want to figure it out. And I want to see what else is going on. So I'm happy about that too. Yeah, generally just about the future of pinball. Like I think you were saying before, how X-Men kind of feels like the future of pinball. And certainly for Stern. But we also kind of have a similar thing happening in Jersey Jack. And that's cool because I didn't expect that from Jersey Jack. I expected kind of more of the same sort of variations on a Pat Lawler or Steve Ritchie layout. Right, right, right. You know, like Elton John is just a pretty classic Steve Ritchie layout. And then half the other Jersey Jack games are similar to other Pat Lawler games. Right. You know, and he designed a bunch of them, of course. So, yeah, it feels like maybe the old guard is kind of moving out and they're evolving. Yeah. And that's pretty exciting because I just didn't expect it. I didn't either. I didn't either. Yeah. And even, I guess, spooky. like that Texas Chainsaw Looney Tunes layout and play field is kind of similarly next level I was pleasantly surprised at how different the games played Yeah Yeah And all of those layouts all the newest games from all of those manufacturers feel like a significant evolution to me Right. Which is really cool. Right. Oh, dude. And again, I don't want to sidebar, but just a quick comment. Yeah. I can't wait to see Evil Dead. I just want to see it. Okay. I just want to see it. So I didn't. I just I saw. Okay. Glenn texted us like the picture of it. We'll leave it there. and I haven't watched anything else about it. We'll talk about Evil Dead later. We'll leave it there. That was the one game I said, I hope they don't make because I've had... Because it was like, are they going to make Goonies? Or Beetlejuice? Or, I don't know, there's a couple others. And Evil Dead. And I was just like, well, Evil Dead's the last one I hope they make. Mainly because as much as I like Evil Dead and Bruce Campbell and stuff, I was hoping for something that wasn't another horror game. I'm into it, man. I mean, first glance looks like the artwork. Christopher Franchi, he nailed it. It looks great. It looks amazing. I haven't seen anything but just the stills, the thumbnails. I haven't actually seen any video or actual playfield images or anything like that. While we're on the Avatar subject, after we played it, I don't know what it was, the second or third time, so jersey jack had like a cameraman oh right right yeah he had a pretty legit like broadcast film camera thing like it was like a baby production crew yeah i was shy i don't know what happened i was so shy man that's funny after we played a game they're like would you guys uh be willing to say a few words about avatar and so they filmed us while we were talking about the game basically probably saying the same things we just said what was like the pose like a high five or something i think they're trying to do some get us to do some pose and we're like let's just do a high five and they're like oh you guys are gonna regret this they're like oh no we're not we're idiots oh my i forgot about the high five yeah yeah so you know there's some video out there of us being idiots for jersey jack so if you've seen it let us know i where is that thing i have no idea yeah well anyway if somebody sees us on some jersey jack promotional material that's what that was yeah it's us i wasn't ready i think i was thinking about it and you were like yeah sure and in my head i was like oh no i don't know what i'm gonna say that's funny it was fun yeah i'm pretty sure that's exactly how it went actually so so that's the the one scenario where when i was more extroverted you were than don you were at expo you gave some genuine like legitimate feedback and you were like i think i remember you saying a line like uh you know i think uh I don't really care so much about the theme, but the game was great. I mean, I'm being real with him. And I'm just like, it was fun. I mean, dude, the guy that I was talking to who worked for Jersey Jack was kind of like winking and nodding. Like, yeah, I don't care about the game either. I saw that. I just, you know, I just, in my head, the first thing I thought of was like, Mr. Jersey Jack crying in the corner if I said something negative about his game. So I think that's why, you know, I'm bad at that stuff, man. Yeah. But I did have fun. So that was true. I didn't lie about it. No, no, no. Oh, the lighting. We didn't talk about the lighting. Yeah. You know, you can't get a great feel for it in a super bright environment. But you could tell that it was going to be cool. It was. We had the eclipse thing happening. You could tell that that was going to be really cool. Man, the mood is just great. It's cohesive, right? Like the gameplay, with the modes, with what's happening on the screen. Yeah. It all kind of ties in a way that really kind of feels great. Like a complete package. Yeah. You could probably say the lighting, it's a major contributor to the mood of the game. Half of the mood is the freaking lighting. It's awesome. Yeah, it's cool when all of the different elements of a game kind of come together and make that full package. And I think that game has got that. Yeah, I agree. You know, we're going to have a real problem if Jersey Jack gets the license to Blade Runner. because then if they make an equivalently cohesive game as Avatar, I'm going to have to buy that game. Dude, listen to me, okay? Yeah. I can already picture that game. It would be amazing. Just don't mess up the artwork, please. But if you don't have the license to that, then, well, you know, Jack Danger, please make that your next game. Thank you. Thank you. And now for a word from our sponsor. In 1977, more than 400,000 copies of a brand new comic book went on sale nationwide in Britain and became an instant success. Today's Judge Dredd is recognized as Britain's most famous comic book hero. Backed by a multi-million dollar campaign blitz that includes toys and action figures, fan clubs, and a soon-to-be-released major motion picture starring Sylvester Stallone, Judge Dredd is destined to be America's favorite crime-busting law enforcer. Handcuff the competition and step into your future with Judge Dredd, featuring Super Game by Bally. And now, back to the show. So. We're still on day one. Still on day one. Day one. Picking up kind of where we left off, we had gone over and played some spooky games. Yeah. Those were fun. We couldn't get enough of the spook. Yep, yep. So we had to go to another spooky game, which was not made by Spooky, but by an awesome team. Yeah, yeah. Including our friend, Glenn Glenn Waechter. It's fun to say that name. It is, actually. It is. It is. I don't know. What was your first impression of Glenn IRL? Glenn? Yeah. Glenn Waechter? Glenn Waechter. He was also taller than I was expecting. That was what I was going to say. He was much taller than I expected. Yeah. And more buff. Yeah, he seemed pretty fit. But yeah, he was a tall man. Yeah, tall man. It was weird. It was like meeting a friend. The only way I can describe it is if I could go back to being 13. Yeah. And I had like online chat friends. Yeah. And I ever got to see one in real life. Oh, it's Glenn. Oh my God, Glenn. And like, I don't know, man. It was weird. It's like we've been friends forever. and i guess my other impression right was like what a fun guy like what a cool just dude he his energy like his positivity he just glenn he is the party yeah yeah if you if you follow glenn around expo you're gonna have some fun we had so much like he was making the fun if there was nothing fun he was making it happen yeah and then uh and then let's see how do i put this glenn was showing off a leather pouch that he was very proud of and just wanted people to like check it out and was like what's wrong it's just a little token it's like a tiny token pouch it's like how many quarters can you fit in like three or four i think it was actually maybe not even big enough to fit barely right yeah but that's what my thinking first was like oh it looks like you could fit some tokens useless right like how many tokens can you put in there but seven you know seven tokens in there but then we learned right like what yeah well he was like passing it around at at at the table and we were eating dinner that night cool glenn yeah yeah it's a it's a kangaroo nutsack that's what it is it's a kangaroo nutsack oh my god man yeah yeah and uh i kind of i kind of want one now amazing apparently this is the thing i i didn't know i had to look it up like it's like how are they getting these nut sacks off of the kangaroos in order to make them into the pouches sustainably sourced i guess i hope yeah i mean they don't regrow i don't think you know that'd be cool if you had like a uh you know one that would regrow that'd be really handy but yeah yeah yeah no i i guess they eat like kangaroos like a big food source in australia so oh really yeah like people actually eat them dude there is such a thing as kangatarians no yes no there are people who don't eat meat except kangaroo meat no way yeah the i guess the idea is that it's extremely sustainable and ethical for the most part like because they're all hunted okay um is it like deer here like yeah in north carolina yeah you might hit a deer in Australia, might you hit a kangaroo? Yeah. They're hunted, and I think the idea is that they just shoot them in the head and they kill them instantly. But anyway, so yeah, it's extremely lean meat. Have you seen the buff kangaroos? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so very lean meat. You can't cook it like beef. It has to be cooked differently. What does kangaroo taste like? I wasn't clear on, you know, Wikipedia didn't really give me that information. Dude, listen. I'm going to start telling people I'm a kangatarian. Johnny Crunch We need you Yeah we gotta get Johnny Crunch's Opinion on We need to know Yeah he's the head of the Bash Pinball Australia Street Team Yeah there you go Mr. Johnny Crunch What does kangaroo meat taste like? Report back to us And we'll give you our address If you can mail us some nut sacks Yeah kangaroo nut pouch Make sure it was like a big virile kangaroo so we can fit a lot of quarters in there. Right. That's important. If you want, keep one for yourself. Yeah, yeah. It's on us. Yeah, anyway. So Saw Pinball, what was your impression of, because to me the homebrew stuff is pretty new. There wasn't much that I remember at Pinfest. Right. And where else are you going to see homebrews? Right. So what was, walking up to Saw, what did you think? okay so i think my biggest takeaway and i gave him this feedback because i thought you know for me it was personally like pretty good feedback because you know technically it's a re-theme yeah of whirlwind right not once did i ever feel anything close to playing whirlwind right so yeah i think to me that was the biggest right it felt more like an original theme yeah than a re-theme and to be honest dude don't hate me for this y'all i actually thought it was a lot more fun than a lot of new games that i've played sure yeah i just felt it felt good it felt right the little like details and little tricks and little things they had um really did it for me man personally yeah this is actually my first re-theme that i've ever played so i was kind of going in open maybe it maybe it'll suck maybe it'll be fun but not my my thing right and i'm totally cool with it because you know it's hard to make a pinball game right yeah dude i was blown away like i i was like man this is actually a feasible game yeah it just feels good it plays it's fun it's like little toys here and there just totally captured the saw feel and i don't know it just felt right to me i felt the same way i i haven't played a ton of whirlwind so i'm familiar with the layout because it's basically was repurposed in jurassic park data east like the layout is almost identical except they replaced the side ramp with the t-rex does it also have the spinners like little spinning no it doesn't have the spinners on the playfield which is awesome for saw because they're saw blades yeah i mean it's like an even better use than whirlwind like what could be better than that but yeah so i've seen the pictures of saw homebrew but i'm a little bit of a skeptic when you see pictures online it's kind of like okay it's cool it looks cool from a distance but you know i was kind of expecting like you get in there and you look closely and you start oh yeah look at that start to see all the the seams right and yeah we're the yeah of course all those little you know things that you would expect on something that's kind of a DIY thing. But there were no seams. There were no zoom in and it looks worse. It wasn't like that. It was like, oh, this looks just as good and actually better than quite a few of the brand new machines on the floor from various manufacturers. Right, right. Manufacturers. Yeah, manufacturers. Like the artwork all looked beautiful and super clear and colorful and high res and just like dude even flawless even the powder coating was like awesome oh yeah what's that beautiful and the yeah the back glass like the back glass art looked amazing there's like all these hidden images in it and all this stuff easter eggs and stuff yeah the music come on we're talking about glenn the sound effects and the music i mean dude yeah it was awesome man like just those uh do you remember so when we were playing it the those North Carolina guys from what, Currituck County or something? Caldwell County? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There a random like three dudes just walking by and we ended up playing with them Yeah because I told the guy right I was like hey our friend Glenn did the music and the sound or whatever and like yeah and then glenn like what do you think of the game he goes well you know it pretty fun but like you know the sound and like the music you know that's pretty bad it's pretty bad that dude is hilarious yeah he was just like immediately goes into like razzing a dude that he's never met before yeah congrats to glenn and everybody who worked on saw there was a ton of work put into that thing and it really shows and i think they got the attention that they deserve at expo everybody was playing that game people were talking about it yeah you know whenever the subject of homebrew came up people were like did you play saw right right right yeah it's really cool i'm not sure what the future plans are but if you see it or if you hear about it at some event you should go play it, for sure. It's totally worth playing if you have the chance. Go check it out. It's awesome, man. And if you're just interested in homebrew, making a game, kind of just to see what's possible with a re-theme. It's inspiring. Yeah, it's inspiring. And now for a word from our sponsor. GenesisDuck! 16-bit arcade graphics. You can't do this on Nintendo! GenesisDuck! And now, back to the show. One of the more exciting things that, for me anyways, about Expo, we were invited to the prestigious Media Mixer. Ooh, pinball Media Mixer. kineticist yeah and friends i felt very special being invited yeah yeah yeah no that was cool that was uh you know made us feel like we were kind of part of the part of the thing part of the media yeah it's weird that part's weird right we're media wait we're media i don't know maybe by some technical definition yeah well it was definitely on my calendar yeah definitely rsap right away because I wanted to be there. And earlier in the day, I noticed that there was an email from Colin. Alzheimer. How do you say his last name? Colin. I was wondering if it was pronounced the same way as the degenerative brain condition. So earlier that morning, I'd seen an email from Colin at Kineticist basically asking if anyone needed a ride. Yeah. Well, at that point, we were already taking Glenn's. Oh, we had room for two more in the uh centra rental car so as we're getting ready as time is approaching the media mixer i get a call from an unknown number on the other end is the thickest british accent i have ever heard yeah and i was like wait what is this and they were asking about a ride to the media mixer and i kind of like like couldn't even get his name any information because of the accent over the phone right so i basically made plans to meet with this individual around 4 30 i believe because the mixer was at five yeah at the bottom of the stairs so 4 30 rolls around and you're like wait who are we meeting what's his name i'm like dude i don't know and then i'm starting to think like maybe this is a prank so we're hanging out we don't even know what to look for who to look for what they look like do you want to say who we ended up taking to the media mixer gary flower okay like the author like slash legend right yeah pinball author and legend oh my god it's gary flower dude like yeah what the heck so um yeah we drove through a couple parking lots yeah right And then another one. And then we circled another one. Went from the Schaumburg parking lot. Not sure if we ever actually got onto a road, but Antarium, where this event was, is a separate place. It was like a mall. It was literally like a mall. So that was really cool, man. And I ended up talking to Gary for a little bit after we got there. And man, what a cool guy. What an awesome, what a privilege. And I really enjoyed just catching up with him and learning a little bit more about his whole pinball life and just how much he's contributed to the whole scene and community and his wife. She was lovely. They were really nice, man. Yeah, that was a fun hangout with Gary, like totally unexpected. Yeah, I feel like we kind of made friends with him a little bit. Gary, if you're listening, you promised me you would be on the show. Kind of. Sort of. Let's do it. We'll figure something out. Yeah. So, Antarium, which is a big kind of Dave and Buster's-y sort of place, but plus pinball. Right. Pretty well appointed. Huge. Huge. Two stories. Yeah, they had a lot of food available to us. Right. Oh, yeah. As members of the media. As media personnel. They actually had a pretty legit catering situation. I was kind of shocked. I was like, man, this is not just hot dogs and burgers. This is like, you know, pretty nice. Yeah, they had a bunch of pizzas. I had the margarita pizza, I think, because I'm doing less red meat. Nice. And I also had the, what I thought was buffalo chicken. Oh. That was actually. Cauliflower. I loved it, dude. You didn't like it? No, it was fine. it's just if you didn't know it was going to be cauliflower then it was immediately disappointing everyone hated on it but i think that's what happened it's like i saw all the hate and they were like by the way that's actually cauliflower don't eat that and i was like oh let me let me try it it was delicious it was fine it was fine but yeah it was good the food was good there was plenty of it you know erica was helping erica helped out run it from erica's pinball journey right passing out the name tags and the swag and the you know we got some raffle tickets and stuff they also gave us drink tickets i mean they kind of they kind of went all out man like that like it was actually a lot like i felt like i was in the cool club yeah yeah yeah that was nice and then interium like the day before is where they had had the stern finals tournament oh interesting so when we were there a bunch of stern games were on free play got it got in addition to They have a bunch of games at Antarium from all different eras that were on quarters or tokens or something. Dude, you know what I got to play? Well, I didn't get to play because it wasn't working. But you know what game Gary Flower showed me how to play? Future Spa. Future Spa. Yeah. What a cool... Dude, look up that game. Look up the artwork. If you haven't seen that... The art on that game is bonkers. It's an ultra wide body... Future... 80s? early early 80s i don't even know maybe even late 70s but i don't even know i feel like the art maybe reminds me of like 70s like late 70s or something yeah definitely like old burt reynolds vibes or something like mustache man yeah it's uh dude it wouldn't fly today let's put it that way in my head it's like the person who i don't know who or how this was designed but it's like hmm the year is 3000 but we're really in the late 70s early 80s yeah style right yeah gym in space yeah yeah and but we're still using these weird like elastic bands and rollers and then we have like water slides yeah yeah yeah i mean i think it's supposed to be like lifting weights in space an actual futuristic spa man but it's basically just an excuse to have like half naked or fully naked i think in some cases showering women dude i mean like the artwork is amazing man yeah it's so fun it's wild artwork but different time apparently also a really fun game according to some people we were with yeah but gary flower yeah but it wasn't working right so right right But we did also get to play another game that was on my list, and that is Gottlieb's Super Mario Brothers. Oh! And it was also, the left flipper wasn't working. However, there's an upper flipper play field kind of thing, and the right flipper worked. So we managed to get some serious nudging happening to try not to use the left flipper. but i don't know i mean it whatever at least we got to play a tiny bit what a disappointment we actually didn't play very much pinball because you know we've been playing pinball already for a couple hours then we had such great examples of games at expo i think we played a couple games with ian oh oh we played okay so they did have a Banzai Run that was my first time playing bonsai right i didn't actually play it i was too busy hanging out with gary oh right right yeah i ditched and gary and started playing Banzai Run with jamie wormhole jamie jay virtual yeah he beat me at it but not too bad gotcha oh oh oh yeah yeah okay so i remember the name now okay so first time i'd ever even heard of this dude i feel like such a pin baby right yeah freaking stall ball stall ball okay glenn set it up so everyone puts in like a dollar or like a set amount of money to buy in Cash on the glass. Or in this case, the coin return. So Glenn was like, I got you guys. Yeah, he spotted us. People started giving him cash, and he's shoving it into the coin return. We form a line. So we were playing it on the Modern Bond game. Not the L-1-1, but the George Gomez one. You have a line of people. I think we probably had about 20 people. It was like 20. I have a video. We should post it or something. Yeah, yeah. And you start the game, you play a ball until the ball stops. Right. Which is typically going to be in like a ball lock, a scoop. Like a scoop, yeah. Or anywhere that the ball just kind of stops. Basically holds it for like a few seconds, right? Yeah, and not cradling it. Correct. Yeah, but where the game is holding the ball. Right. And on bond, you've got a right scoop, and then you've got the left scoop behind the left upper flipper. Right, right. So there's two obvious places. then there's also a physical ball lock on the premium. So there's three potential places, at least on that game, where you can stall the ball. Right. And so once you successfully stall the ball, then you scurry away as quickly as possible. So the next person, basically in line behind you, comes in. Yeah. And then you go to the back of the line. Yep. And then basically you just continue this. And as you lose the ball, you're out. And last man standing gets the cash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You lasted like... So I got to... I was number five. Awesome. I mean, I was getting a little bit lucky probably, but I kept hitting the locks and I would just go to the end of the line. When there's that many people, it kind of takes a while to get all the way back through. This game probably lasted 30 minutes or something. I was out right away. Dude, I went up to the thing and it was like, bop, bop, bop, bop. I'm out. Yeah, I mean, it's very luck-based. There goes my dollar. But yeah, it was fun. It was fun, man. Yeah, we should try to do that again somehow. So anyway, after that, I think... Oh, and they had giveaways, like the raffles. They gave away playfields. Oh, man, they gave away so much stuff. I was shocked, dude, at all the stuff they gave away. Yeah, I was just wondering how all these people were going to get home. Some translights. How they were going to get home. On the plane, right? Like figure out how to ship a play field. A big piece of plywood. On a weekend. Yeah. oh man i think that was pretty much it right and i think uh yeah but we're still on day one day one oh my god oh man this isn't even the end of day one i mean to be fair day one was most of the things right so i mean we were there for three days but we did most of the major things in the first day so you know the day two and day three aren't going to be as long as day one then we'll be done with season one season one epic season finale is like 11 part it was epic episode apparently it was epic yeah it was epic and uh so we'll see you next time with night one night one chicago expo 2024 2024 that's where it got real fun Leave this territory now. Return to your home. evacuate all personnel _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 4bf92eea-145c-4a61-bf46-3377d03e6b40*