# Pinball Mod Talk Episode 21: Who Should Take on Homebrew in House?

**Source:** In Before the Lock Live Streams  
**Type:** video  
**Published:** 2024-11-26  
**Duration:** 72m 9s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcx3WFxTC40

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## Analysis

In this Pinball Mod Talk episode, hosts discuss the thriving homebrew pinball scene at Expo, featuring guests Ian Jacobi (Nudge Magazine), Kyle Smit (homebrew designer), and Aaron Davis (Fast Pinball). Discussion centers on whether major manufacturers should embrace homebrew as a brand strategy, the explosive growth of the homebrew community, and the challenges of transitioning from hobbyist projects to commercial production. Key themes include the Saddle Creek Records model as inspiration, the role of seminars in building community, and the distinction between homebrew as hobby versus pinball as business.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] The homebrew section at Expo this year was bigger than ever before with 37-40 machines, representing significant growth from previous years — _Aaron Davis and Ian Jacobi discussing Expo 2024 homebrew booth scale_
- [HIGH] Kyle Smit's Friday the 13th homebrew features original art, playfields, and six original actors providing custom call-outs — _Kyle Smit describing his completed Friday the 13th game_
- [HIGH] Kyle is developing Big Trouble in Little China as his second homebrew game with involvement from cast members and custom sculpts — _Kyle Smit announcement of second game in progress_
- [HIGH] Fast Pinball provides affordable logistics support to get homebrew games to shows via pallet shipping to FedEx Depots — _Aaron Davis describing Fast Pinball's logistics assistance program_
- [HIGH] Nudge Magazine is releasing Issue 5 in early 2024 and launching a podcast called 'Nudge Cast' with Shane Told from Silverstein — _Ian Jacobi announcing Nudge Magazine publications and podcast plans_
- [MEDIUM] Turner Pinball sold approximately 100 units of Ninja Eclipse, demonstrating viability of small-batch commercial homebrew production — _Ian Jacobi referencing Turner Pinball as production precedent_
- [HIGH] Jeffrey and Lisa Sue Jones committed to selling one of their existing games to fund development of Greatest Showman homebrew after attending Expo seminars — _Aaron Davis recounting Greatest Showman creators' journey_
- [HIGH] Lisa Sue Jones transitioned from nursing/sewing background to coding and has now programmed more pinball machines than Aaron Davis — _Aaron Davis describing Lisa Sue Jones's coding progression_
- [HIGH] Post-Expo, there has been surge in immediate orders for Fast Pinball boards from show attendees wanting to build games for next year — _Aaron Davis describing post-Expo ordering pattern_
- [HIGH] Ian Jacobi published article proposing that manufacturers like American Pinball adopt Saddle Creek Records model for signing homebrew designers — _Ian Jacobi discussing his 'American Homebrew' article published two weeks prior_

### Notable Quotes

> "nudge is basically like a skateboarding magazine but about pinball... like Thrasher or Big Brother magazines from the 90s that had attitude and were as much about culture as what new game is coming out"
> — **Ian Jacobi**, early in episode
> _Establishes Nudge Magazine's unique positioning in pinball media and cultural mission_

> "the worst thing that could happen making a homebrew is that you have a kickass game in your basement forever... the best thing is that you have some interest... the absolute best thing is conversations with major manufacturers"
> — **Kyle Smit**, mid-episode
> _Articulates the realistic expectations and goals for homebrew designers; foundational philosophy_

> "pinball is a business right homebrew is kind of a hobby and it's intended to be fun... really you know a lot of those folks were either tangentially plugged into the pinball community or somehow related"
> — **Kyle Smit**, mid-episode
> _Distinguishes the different natures of commercial vs. hobbyist game creation and addresses barriers to cross-pollination_

> "she convinced her husband to take this project on because she was going to learn how to write code... she's programmed more pinball machines than I have now"
> — **Aaron Davis**, mid-episode
> _Illustrates accessibility and learning curve of homebrew coding platforms like Fast/MPF; demonstrates rapid skill development_

> "we were trying to differentiate is like not just make it some random game stuck in the corner we wanted to make it an experience... almost Carnival experience where it became a fixture on its own"
> — **Aaron Davis**, mid-episode
> _Explains strategic curation of homebrew booth presentation and its impact on show experience and community engagement_

> "there are all these niche themes that people are so passionate about but might not be the theme that's going to move 800 units... you could do small batch runs maybe 100, maybe 200"
> — **Ian Jacobi**, mid-to-late episode
> _Core argument for why major manufacturers should adopt Saddle Creek Records model for niche homebrew titles_

> "if you get your game if your game is good enough to get plugged in and turned on by anybody um you're kind of eligible for us trying to help out with some logistics"
> — **Aaron Davis**, mid-episode
> _Describes Fast Pinball's democratized approach to supporting quality homebrew projects regardless of designer background_

> "people were standing in front of us going just tell me what to order here so I can be a part of this next year"
> — **Aaron Davis**, mid-episode
> _Demonstrates immediate post-Expo momentum and FOMO-driven demand for homebrew platform entry_

> "I don't think he was out to have this be mass produced but he made a fun game and then people when they walked up they just got it right"
> — **Kyle Smit**, late-episode
> _Reflects on how Scott Denise's TNA success was organic—driven by game quality and player intuition rather than pre-planned commercialization_

> "this feels like my senior year of Expo... I was slacking off and like smoking outside too much... every single year we've seen the homebrew community grow like from almost nothing"
> — **Ian Jacobi**, mid-episode
> _Personal reflection on the dramatic growth trajectory of homebrew scene from Expo's early years to present_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Ian Jacobi | person | Founder/editor of Nudge Magazine; author of 'American Homebrew' article proposing Saddle Creek Records model for pinball manufacturers; launching Nudge Podcast with Shane Told |
| Kyle Smit | person | Homebrew pinball designer; completed Friday the 13th with six original actor call-outs; developing Big Trouble in Little China as second game; uses Fast Pinball platform |
| Aaron Davis | person | Co-founder of Fast Pinball; manages homebrew logistics at major shows; advocates for accessible design tools and community support infrastructure |
| Nudge Magazine | organization | Pinball lifestyle print magazine (2x yearly issues); free weekly email newsletter with articles; launching Nudge Podcast; positioned as 'skateboarding magazine but about pinball' |
| Fast Pinball | company | Manufactures hardware/software platform (Mission Pinball Framework) for homebrew pinball; provides logistics support and community development infrastructure |
| Pinball Mod Talk | content | Live-streaming show where this episode airs; Episode 21 focuses on homebrew discussion |
| Expo | event | Major pinball industry trade show; 2024 featured record-breaking homebrew section (37-40 games); includes seminars and community engagement activities |
| Friday the 13th | game | Kyle Smit's completed homebrew; features original art, multiple original actor call-outs, and horror theme alongside Jaws and Halloween |
| Big Trouble in Little China | game | Kyle Smit's in-progress homebrew second title; 80s niche movie adaptation; features custom sculpts and original art; aims for Expo 2025 debut |
| Greatest Showman | game | Homebrew game by Jeffrey Jones and Lisa Sue Jones; creators inspired by Expo attendee experience; Lisa Sue transitioning from nursing/sewing to code development |
| Evil Dead | game | Recent Spooky Pinball release; features art by French; Davey (host) recently purchased despite 48-hour resistance period; discussed as quality release example |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Manufacturer of pinball games; recent releases include Evil Dead; holds 'special place' in host Davey's heart |
| Scott Denise | person | Homebrew designer of TNA (Time Never Ends); example of successful homebrew-to-commercial pipeline; worked with major manufacturer |
| TNA (Time Never Ends) | game | Homebrew game by Scott Denise; cited as successful example of organic homebrew success without pre-planned commercialization; picked up commercially |
| Keith Elwin | person | Professional pinball designer; created homebrew; known for kinetic satisfaction and game feel expertise; transitioned to commercial manufacturing |
| Jack Danger | person | Pinball designer; featured guest on upcoming Nudge Podcast; involved in commercial game design |
| American Pinball | company | Manufacturer discussed by Ian Jacobi as potential candidate for Saddle Creek Records-style homebrew development model |
| Saddle Creek Records | company | Independent music record label; model cited by Ian Jacobi as template for how manufacturers could foster homebrew designers and curate small-batch runs |
| Turner Pinball | company | Manufactured Ninja Eclipse; sold approximately 100 units; cited as proof-of-concept for small-batch commercial homebrew production |
| Ninja Eclipse | game | Turner Pinball commercial homebrew adaptation; approximately 100 units sold; demonstrates viability of small-batch indie production model |
| Shane Told | person | Musician from band Silverstein; pinball enthusiast; co-hosting Nudge Podcast with Ian Jacobi |
| Ryan McAde | person | Homebrew designer of Sonic Spinball homebrew; picked up by American Pinball; example of homebrew-to-commercial transition |
| Mission Pinball Framework (MPF) | technology | Open-source software platform used with Fast Pinball hardware for homebrew game development; makes coding more accessible |
| Davey | person | Co-host of Pinball Mod Talk; frequent pinball buyer; recently purchased Evil Dead; engaging personality and collector perspective |
| Rob | person | Co-host of Pinball Mod Talk; involved in event curation and discussion facilitation |

### Signals

- **[community_signal]** Homebrew pinball community experienced record participation at Expo 2024 with 37-40 playable games; show featured dedicated infrastructure, organized seminars, and logistics support. Post-show momentum remains high with immediate orders for platform hardware. (confidence: high) — Aaron Davis: 'there were so many people just getting to hang out and talk to all these home brew people in real time that they were standing in front of us going just tell me what to order here so I can be a part of this next year'
- **[design_innovation]** Fast Pinball and Mission Pinball Framework are lowering barriers to entry for homebrew designers with open-source software, commercial-grade hardware compatibility, and accessible documentation. Non-technical backgrounds (nurse, artist) can now develop playable games. (confidence: high) — Aaron Davis describing Lisa Sue Jones's rapid progression from non-coder to having programmed more machines than him; Kyle Smit noting he had never coded before starting Friday the 13th
- **[industry_signal]** Discussion centers on whether major manufacturers should formally adopt homebrew pipeline similar to Saddle Creek Records model—signing designers, producing small-batch runs of niche-themed games (100-200 units) rather than mass production. (confidence: high) — Ian Jacobi's recent Nudge Magazine article proposing American Pinball adopt indie model; multiple speakers discussing challenges and precedents for homebrew-to-commercial transitions
- **[product_strategy]** Homebrew designers demonstrate success with highly specific IP (anime, cult movies, skateboarding) that major manufacturers may avoid due to volume constraints. Small-batch commercial model could monetize these niche passions. (confidence: high) — Ian Jacobi: 'there are all these niche themes that people are so passionate about but might not be the theme that's going to move 800 units... you could do small batch runs maybe 100, maybe 200'
- **[business_signal]** Manufacturers face IP/licensing challenges when acquiring homebrew games; strong art and gameplay don't guarantee manufacturability if underlying IP cannot be secured. Kyle Smit notes this as major barrier to commercial viability. (confidence: high) — Kyle Smit: 'that manufacturer has to acquire the IP likeness rights and even if your art is Stellar the IP may not like whatever you have and you can't go back and forth'
- **[personnel_signal]** Documented examples of homebrew designers successfully transitioning to commercial roles (Scott Denise, Keith Elwin, Jack Danger, Ryan McAde). Success pattern requires combination of game design skill, industry knowledge/connections, and collaborative business mindset. (confidence: high) — Kyle Smit's retrospective on successful transitions and requirement that outsiders be 'team players' and understand business context
- **[event_signal]** Expo 2024 introduced 'Making Pinball Making Friends' panel format that features 15+ individual homebrew creators with personal storytelling rather than rapid-fire format. Reported to drive inspiration and post-show engagement. (confidence: high) — Aaron Davis describing seminar evolution and Davey noting 'heartfelt moments' that made follow-up conversations more meaningful
- **[manufacturing_signal]** Fast Pinball and show organizers (Marcos crew) now providing subsidized shipping logistics for quality homebrew games, reducing barrier to attending major industry shows. Pallet shipping to FedEx depots significantly reduces individual designer costs. (confidence: high) — Aaron Davis: 'if you can get it on a pallet to a FedEx Depot we can help you get it to a show for real cheap'
- **[content_signal]** Nudge Magazine expanding from print (2x yearly) to weekly email newsletter and launching Nudge Podcast with musician Shane Told. Focus on culture/personality interviews (photographers, comedians, athletes who play pinball) rather than pure product coverage. (confidence: high) — Ian Jacobi announcing Nudge Podcast launch with Shane Told and describing interview focus on artists/entertainers and pinball intersection
- **[sentiment_shift]** Shift in community perception of homebrew from hobbyist novelty to legitimate creative/commercial opportunity. Professional presentation at Expo (dedicated space, seminars, logistics) and quality of games (rivaling commercial releases) driving mainstream acceptance. (confidence: high) — Ian Jacobi noting that unlike previous media dismissal of manufacturers, homebrew deserves constructive analysis; Aaron Davis describing games as 'compelling' and 'rivaling' commercial releases
- **[gameplay_signal]** Homebrew games emphasize intuitive gameplay and clear designer intent. Examples like Scott Denise's TNA praised for player understanding at first touch; Keith Elwin's background demonstrates how decades of professional experience translates to accessible game feel. (confidence: medium) — Kyle Smit: 'when they walked up they just got it right... you hit the start button and you can just sense that game through through the flipper buttons'
- **[market_signal]** Collectibility is emerging as competitive advantage for small-batch homebrew runs. Limited production (100-200 units) of niche-themed games creates scarcity value distinct from mass-market commercial games. Ian Jacobi identifies this as overlooked manufacturer opportunity. (confidence: medium) — Ian Jacobi: 'something that's important to a lot of people who own pinball machines is uh collectibility... you could do small batch runs of these games maybe a 100 maybe 200 whatever'

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## Transcript

[Music] [Applause] Davey how you you doing I'm good Rob how you going man doing I'm doing some last minute audio here it's not not starting off well welcome to the show everyone and before the lock we are on episode number 21 super exciting uh today we're talking about all things home brew uh we had an awesome show at Expo learned about a bunch of new Homebrew stuff and figured we'd keep that train going right yeah amazing amazing section at Homebrew amazing section at home brew amazing Homebrew section at Xbox this year um bigger than it's ever been before um you know a big structure around it signs more machines they'd ever have than they've ever had at any other show uh and it was just amazing lots of lots of great things came out of it for sure and before we get to that so Dave if if our our audience watches this show they know that you've had a little bit of a pinball buying habit this year Evil Dead are you in are you in on Evil Dead uh well I wasn't in uh for about 48 hours and so I'm really proud of myself that I usually it takes a lot a lot sooner for me to Cave but yeah I caved man I'm I'm sorry to say um oh look uh I think it looks amazing I think the artwork uh by French is just mind-blowingly good I think it's the best he's ever done um I like spooky as a company man um I think that they've sort of you know they hold a very special place in my heart um Scooby I bought but probably wasn't that in love with as uh you know all things considered um Looney chins and uh Texas Chainsaw I was never in love with because I just I really dislike games where they do double themes so I'll never buy sort of a double themed game I think it sort of breaks the fourth wall in a way um but this one I just reckon struck all the right notes and uh I I loved the the release structure and how they did it all I thought it was really professional um all the interviews they did with Luke and bug I just really uh you know loved their enthusiasm and uh yeah I want to support them on this one man I think it's great what do you think yeah and there's a well I'm interested in this Heart Take on the double theme um I think it looks great um there's a big uh gameplay stream tonight but yeah it's like it hits it hits a lot of notes I mean it and even though the theme didn't and still isn't doing it for me like it makes me want to watch the movie so that's yeah like a really cool thing is like I'm like hey I actually might want to get into this them and you never know so uh really really you're not a you're not a horror guy though are you at all like you really I'm not I'm not but but but still like right like it looks cool in terms of like you know uh like I I've I've caught pieces of the movie but I've never watched it um same yeah I'm in the same position it's it's always one of those ones that's sort of been on the periphery but you know you've never had a mate that's going you must watch this you know I've never had that that friend who's who's tried to get me to watch it or you know been around a friend's house at 1: in the morning and they've made you watch it or whatever so I've never had that but um as a result of seeing the um the enthusiasm and the people who are like really really into it you know I do want to revisit those movies cool yeah so I think there's a stream tonight at 7 eastern central I'm not sure but check it out guys so we have guests they're shuffling in the back uh we're going to bring them on we've got uh first up we've got uh Ian uh jacobe from nudge magazine Ian how you doing man hi Ian I'm doing well uh good good to meet you guys officially on stream so absolutely absolutely so uh so Ian's here from nudge like I said and and he's actually the inspiration for this uh this uh uh episode uh he did a really cool article recently we'll be about it a little bit about the idea of a major manufacturer uh you know embracing Homebrew and making that kind of part of their brand strategy uh talked about American specifically but Ian man we'd love to hear a little bit about you man what's what's the deal with nudge yeah uh so nudge uh is basically like a skateboarding magazine but about pinball is sort of how I describe it to people like if you think about like Thrasher or big brother those magazines from the 90s that had a little bit of attitude and were just as much about the culture as maybe like what new game is coming out um so that that's nudge and uh we have an online component I would say uh subscribe to our email list if you haven't done that we have articles that come out every week that are all as interesting as the one we're talking about today uh not just by Me by like we have a host of writers and photographers and um we cover a lot of different stuff uh in pinball and usually stuff that's kind of like not C otherin yeah I I really recommend you guys get on their mailing list it's free content uh they do have a an amazing print magazine I think you do it four times a year right uh we do it twice a year but um yep so we're up to Issue four right now I'm writing issue five uh a bunch of people are writing issue five right now so um that'll come out uh early next year I think and uh yeah and actually I can announce here we are we just started a podcast so it's going to be me and Shane told uh from the band Silverstein who is also a big pinball fan uh and so there will be a podcast now called the nudge cast that will uh come out in the next next few weeks or or month or so so and will you be covering the same stuff as you uh essentially covering the magazine so sort of skateboarding pinball crossover scene stuff we're gonna be interviewing a lot of at thank you that's a great question uh we are we're going to be interviewing like artists and entertainers a lot on how pinball intersects with their Liv so like in the first few episodes we have well we have Jack danger uh but we're also going to have like a Vogue photographer who also shoots for like the New York Times who runs as a TD director in Los Angeles um we're gonna have some comedians on who are really into pinball and like some people who play like sports and stuff but uh kind of just talking about more how it fits into their lives and how it like manifests in their you know uh profession so yeah sounds fascinating yeah so we're going to be giving away two copies of nudge later on in the show uh we're going to do some Homebrew trivia for you guys so keep an eye out for that uh we'll do two trivia questions first to answer in the chat we'll get a copy of nudge uh we'll check that out so all right cool so Ian great to have you man um we've also got uh Kyle Smit Kyle's been on the show before Kyle how you doing buddy I'm very well how's it going thanks for having me on again I get I guess I didn't embarrass myself too much last time so I appreciate not too bad not too bad no yeah Kyle has done uh one home brew that he's released publicly and he's working on a second um Kyle is it you you and you've told us the title right we've talked about it here I I did but I'll tell you Davey I'm on the same page with with you and and Rob like horror themes just don't really do it for me I think they're gross um I can tell I can tell demonic Killers whatever you're such a sellout doing all these them that you don't even like yeah yeah yeah um so this is my first game Friday 13th uh next to jaws and uh Halloween right so I uh started this game about two years ago I never coded anything I never made a a pinball but I had owned a lot I had fixed them and I said I I wonder if I could make one so I I collaborated with some super awesome folks in the community um I had a build log where I kind of walked through everything that I did wrong you know here here's some pitfalls here's some things that I did right um it was super cool took me about a year and a half I was able to bring it to tpf it was uh was very successful at tpf I was just glad that it played people seem to be having a great time with it I just took it to Expo don't make the mistake that I did and park your game next to Nick's Tony Hawk game because we had a big crowd mostly towards Nick's game but man that game was just fantastic but I was proud to bring the game to Expo never had to lift the Playfield so I was pretty stoked that it's uh that it seemed to be built pretty well and it held up to a lot of abuse so I talked to a lot of fans lot really cool experiences I got to talk to a lot of people who kind of gave me some some insights some tidbits who were involved with uh with some of the folks who were in the movies but just quick trivia for my game um I had six of the original actors provide custom call outs for the game um original art on the playfields uh and the backlash uh for game number two uh because I'm a fan of kind of you know Niche 80s movies that's the direction I'm going again so game number two is Big Trouble in Little China one of my favorites right huge huge box office bomb but man what a cult classic so I've got some uh some Heavy Hitters involved with that game uh it's it's playing um I just uh coded the skill shot and added some music yesterday uh I'm working on a lot of the sculpts I got some people involved with the sculpts and stuff so I'm I'm just so excited to uh to show this one off no build log but I'm hopeful to drop it at Expo next year not next to Nicks game though you learn from your mistakes yeah right we had we had a great time for sure What's it gonna take to get some Kurt Russell call outs on H big trouble man so I'll share with you that I have talked to some people who were in the movie and I'm I'm working that angle right now I don't know if I'm gonna be as successful as I was with Friday the 13th uh but but we'll see well different set of actors too isn't it you know little different caliber but that's okay yeah yeah yeah cool man very exciting all right great to have you Kyle and our last guest is Aaron Davis from Fast pinball Aaron how you doing dude I'm doing um yeah this is uh I I wish we did this every every afternoon every weekend we just get to hang out with people out on pinball so black it's fine D Let's Do It um but no Aaron Davis I'm a co-founder of fast pinball um Dave beer and I started fast a while ago because we wanted to uh you know bring some new technology into pinball and like everything else I get involved in I end up working on platformy behind the scenes foundational opportunity creating things and so uh that's fit well with the home brew community so I mean Dave and I and then uh with Eli kurts and uh Brian Madden making all of our documentation look incredible um we've been able to you know help stimulate and and encourage people to get out and create great things and and do that through home home brew pinball so um I hope that uh this conversation I can find some things to talk about because sometimes it's hard for me to get talking but you know we'll see where goes and Kyle you're using fast uh Tech on your new game right so game number one was Cobra I using fast uh the the fast system for game number two after some so uh Shameless plug for Aaron he he may not do this for everybody but he was uh let's say just very generous with his time for for me right transitioning from one platform to another so uh kudos to Aaron and his team so I'm gonna ask you this question not Aon because we'll be here all day what is the fast platform like what is this stuff so uh Aon will correct me to 100% for sure but this is the brains of the game that talks to the computer to tell the game what to do uh tells the game when to uh when to you know you hit the button and a coil happens so it is kind of all the the background mechanics that lead to the magic right so you've got interface with a with a computer something called the mission pinball framework mpf that's the software component the hardware component um lots of different platforms you know there there's pros and cons across the board but uh uh certainly Aaron's product I think kind of sets itself apart because it's a commercial product and it's in some commercial games right now I'm sure he'll talk to that so I wanted with with game number two I was sensitive to have all original art uh nothing has been pulled off the shelf this is all original and I wanted uh the board uh features that are in commercial games along with Aaron's personality and health so d i I got I gotta say hold on like so I met Kyle for the first time at Expo and you know like I talked to everybody and I go so you finished a game you got to the show are you ready to do your next game and he's like man I need a break like I'm exhausted this took everything out of me and it took like what like a day and a half before he was like I'm man I'm doing another one I want to do a game with you guys this is so awesome um so that that was that was pretty fun very cool Rob Rob mentioned this and I'll be quiet uh uh Rob and Davey both mentioned this when you get there and you're surrounded by these games and you're part of this this community there there's nothing else like it to bring something for other people to enjoy and I met eron at at tpf when we hooked up again at uh um Expo so after tpf I got home I'm like all right I'm doing it yeah I'll play a little bit of clip uh for you guys uh from the show um the the the the experience of the home brew booth at Expo this year was was really just different in so many ways I mean one it was a much bigger space but the quality of games there was just incredible Aaron you have been a part of a lot of these what what was different about it for you one one of the big things was you know it takes so much work to get to these shows and what we were really trying to differentiate is like not just make it some random game stuck in the corner we wanted to make it an experience and um it was something that we had started at kind of that pin Devcon idea years ago at the Northwest show um and you know Emoto jumped in with us and we really tried to create this kind of almost Carnival experience where like you know it became a fixture on its own that you want to go see what's happening there not necessarily just go see that one Homebrew game but just spend time here and I think that that's that's been the vision because all the shows now they want all the Homebrew games to get there but what I always push is that like you got to understand like people spend thousands of dollars to get to these shows with their games stay in rooms you know get hotels Transportation all that stuff and so by trying to create more of an experience of the home bre stuff itself we can work with shows to facilitate like you know what kind of budget do you have to try and create an experience for home brw and you know the Oto or Emoto and the Marcos crew have been really supportive with trying to work with shipping and Logistics um you know if you get your game if your game is good enough to get plugged in and turned on by anybody um you're kind of eligible for us trying to help out with some Logistics like if you can get it on a pallet to a FedEx Depot we can help you get it to a show for real cheap um and I think that camaraderie around the event stuff I mean that's something that Marcos has nailed so when they were eager to work together with us I was like oh hell yeah like you've got the boots on the ground to make the stuff you know as great as it can be and was it was it those guys that provided the infrastructure at Expo as well or was that Stern that gave you some bits to that was all the mar stuff um I think that like you know they've they've kind of you know extended their uh their Road Show Rigs and stuff like that to have some extra Gantry and stuff and I know that um the stern Booth this year they brought some of their own stuff to do setup so I think there was a surplus of things that were able to be applied to the H scene because the H scene looked incredible I mean people walked by going what is all this it was kind of fun to sit back and watch people experience that in real time so so you know I we were talking kind of in the pre-show like normally after Expo things kind of start to die down as far as home brew goes because I because it's a big moment for home brw at least from my experience what have you seen anything different this year in terms of like the engagement around home BR yeah I I'd say it's been huge um you know I I mentioned like we were chatting before that typically like a show happens and then four to six weeks later we got a bunch of new people buying boards and wanting to connect and stuff like that um at tpf and Southern Fried Gaming Expo was getting a lot shorter and at at Expo this year there were so many people just getting to hang out and talk to all these home BR people in real time that they were standing in front of us going just tell me what to order here so I can be a part of this next year and um I think that you know when you looked at the story of like um Jeffrey Jones and Lisa sue his wife who made the uh greatest showman game we met two years ago at Expo and they kept coming they came to talk to us because we were there and wanted to know what this home bre thing was all about and by the end of the show they committed that they were going to go and and sell one of their games I think to get some money together to build their greatest showman game and Lisa Sue came into this as like she convinced her husband to take this project on because she was going to learn how to write code and we did some interview sessions um on stage and she talks about how she was a nurse she is a nurse practitioner who likes to sew and coding was something she'd never done before before getting into Homebrew and she's programmed more B machines than I have now so and you mentioned uh you mentioned that uh seminar that you did at Expo uh where you pulled in all of the people onto the stage um and you know for me that was like a really sort of seminal moment as well just to just to sort of um I mean there's there's been other shows where the Homebrew people have been on stage and stuff but it didn't quite have the format that it did this year where you were sort of introducing people and sort of I guess managing sort of the stories and the personalities and stuff and I think it works so well because we got introduced all these people and heard about their back stories and heard about how they got into it um and I suppose heard about their Journeys um and so for me when then when we sort of you know did the did the walk around of the homeb section later it was with that background knowledge of these people sort of made such a big difference for me so I wonder if um you know those seminars you know and people going to them sort of added to that inspiration that people felt it's a format that I think is kind of necessary at this point because it got to be you know used to be a couple people on the panels I think when we did the uh tpf one last year I think I swear it was like 19 guys in a row like sitting there talking it was like do you use Fusion yes I do yes I do yes I do yes I do kind of thing and we started this at the Northwest pinball show where you know we just started like I was randomly calling two people up out of the audience and they'd come sit down and we'd you know run through what they were working on things and I think that you know I was worried we were going to blow through the whole lineup of people in like 20 minutes and have 40 minutes to kill and I think that what we found was we could have doubled the time and so what we plan to do at these shows going forward we kind of call them the making pinball making friends talks where it's like you know we're all getting to know each other and building these things and so um I know for Expo at least next year like Rob Berg said we could you know take up twice the the time that we did before and I'd like to be able to do it to where like we can start in the beginning with some smaller interviews of just the new people coming along but then get into some longer conversations around like some of the deeper projects that people are coming in there to see and then leave room for some Q&A afterwards but um I mean I appreciate the K kid wors on that stuff because I mean I always feel like I'm a clown cars getting out of control like you know trying you mentioned that but no honestly I thought it was such uh there was there was some really heartfelt moments in it and you know I was able to take those moments and then and then meet the people afterwards and then sort of talk to them about those things and hear sort of you know in more detail sort of what got them into it and I think they appreciated sort of people knowing that bit about them as well um yeah it was it was great it worked really well I thought so yeah the the the the vibe has been awesome I mean we' we've seen so much you know people talking about the the Tony Hawk game from Nick Nel has been been really big and then we I get an article from from nudge about some ideas with like why aren't companies you know taking even more of these opportunities in house Ian what what brought you to put that together and tell us a little bit about you know your research you did on that that article sure so yeah we did uh an article I guess it's probably two weeks ago now called um American Homebrew our plan to save American pinball um I felt like a lot of people and we won't like dwell on the American part of this too much but I think a lot of pinball media that I see talking about American pinball they're just like oh they suck and they're like a joke and I was like well that's not very constructive uh and like it would be kind of nice to maybe like offer some solutions and then at the same time I mean I've been to Expo I don't know like maybe four four times I think now I was telling someone I'm like this feels like my senior year of Expo I was like slacking off and like smoking outside too much um but like there was just this every single year we've seen the home brew Community grow like from almost nothing I like I I feel like the first year there there was some stuff there was like Ed Owens and you know like those normal folks but uh I mean there was like 40 I think this year is that is that right uh that was the target was to get to 40 for the 40th and I think it came in at like 37 to 38 somewhere close to that yeah and I mean most of them were not just playable but like sort of compelling games that and and some of them really even rivaling uh the other new games that were being released commercially and so for me I was like why like it's free R&D for people you know and and there was this model sitting there um for me you know I talk a lot in there about Saddle Creek records but there are a lot of uh independent record labels that like in a lot of different genres of music that you could point to as examples of this but really they have crowdsourced you know their bands um we had talked about this pre-recording but Aaron had mentioned you know a lot of times a Home Room machine is essentially like a demo tape and that that is exactly how I saw it and so the strength of Saddle Creek uh was that they could they had someone with a vision um running their organization who is also an artist and so they could kind of not just create great work that would be put out um by the record label but also they were able to Foster in a new generation of artists that were putting out kind of interesting work as well and so for me the idea was sort of like who can we get to helm American pinball or whoever that would be like a Scott Danesi type or somebody um who has experience sort of bringing a game from a home home brew to the commercial market and use and use them as like okay we're going to put out your games as like cornerstones and also we are going to bring in like whoever is doing something hot with Homebrew um give them the opportunity give them a shot and maybe this just like the way that it looks I know um something that's not as important to me because I'm a location player but I think something that's important to a lot of people who own pinball machines is uh collectibility and so for me it's like they're the the strength of Homebrew right is there are all these Niche themes that people are so passionate about but it might not be the theme that's going to be like you can move 800 units of this thing maybe you can but maybe you can't um like for me I love anime and so like I brought up Ed ens before like The Ghost and the shell pin that's something that's very interesting to me if someone ever did a cowboy bbop pin that would be very interesting to me and so I think you could do small batch runs of these games maybe a 100 maybe 200 whatever you know we we saw Turner pinball essentially they they sold a hundred uh of ninja Eclipse so you know take whatever is really popping from these Homebrew figure out a way to sort of do a hundred that's that's a lot and I I'm not like you know I'm ignorant to some of these challenges I'll be interested to hear what you know Kyle and Aaron kind of have to say about the challenges of moving from a oneoff to to to production but um yeah I just think that like Saddle Creek and independent record labels in general kind kind of serve as a great model for for what we could do so um hey Carrie Hardy the we are talking about you forced yourself in you forced yourself into the stream Carri good work yeah so there's a there's there's a ton of challenges with doing this I mean I'm curious about like what you guys know about the history of this so Kyle did you did you like see examples of people that my so Kyle did you like were you inspired by anybody that kind of made their way through this path or anybody that you know I love to hear about who you know about this made the paath and kind of bring it to some get titles people know yeah so so I'll give you my my unsolicited opinion um pinball and and home brw are both you know they they're in the same zip code but pinball is a business right home brw is kind of a hobby and it's intended to be fun now certainly there's some cross-pollination right where some manufacturers have picked up some Homebrew folks but really you know a lot of those folks were either you know tangentially plugged into the pinball you know Community or you know somehow related so you know Scott Danesi you know T work for uh pinball life Keith Ellen I think he's a pretty good pinball player so so he was already kind of plugged into that Community uh Ryan mcade made a great uh Sonic spinball home bre picked up by American Jack danger I think he's on a couple YouTube videos I'm not sure if you guys have heard of him but he kind of dabbled in home Bru a little bit before I got picked up by Stern and then Mark siden and then Steve condas obviously with the with the pinball room um made the Leed Zeppelin game super great game great Mech and then I he's a consultant I think for one of the um startups so I think uh real quick coming into the mainstream actually working for a pinball manufacturer um as an outsider as a home Brewer who really doesn't have kind of a big footprint you are an outside commodity and an unnown and that is a risk for a business so you know I might have come up with the greatest home brew ever but if I'm not a team player if I'm not collaborative and and I don't know how the business works and it's not a good fit for a major manufacturer but to Ian's point if I bring a game the R&D is done especially if you have art uh that is uh compelling that connects with people and a theme that connects with people you may have something so the challenge then is that now that manufacturer has to acquire the IP likeness rights and even if your art is Stellar the IP may not like whatever you have and you can't go back and forth and you know change this and change that like it's done so for for me at the end of the day the so what is that if you're gonna make a game if you're going to make a a home R game it's got to be for you period dot whether you connect with anime horror movies action movies skateboarding whatever that may be it's going to be in your basement uh like I was telling the folks at Expo the worst thing that could happen making a home RW is that you have a kickass game in your basement forever that's the worst thing the best thing is that you have some interest the absolute best thing in the Pinnacle is that you actually start to have some some conversations with some of the Manu the major manufacturers so really it's it's intended to be for for fun but there's some cool things that can happen for sure so the so the so the is the best example of this happening is it is it TNA probably or so um I think TNA if correct me if I'm wrong was one of the first and then Scott did the leg work right he drug his game to shows yeah and I don't think he was out to have this be mass produced but he made a fun game and then people when they walked up they just got it right um there there was no pre-existing IP Scott had this crazy idea of you are this time traveler you're going to the Future and you're gonna blow up the world okay you have to kill all these nine reactors go and and people got it and then you hit the start button and you can just you sense that game through through the flipper buttons and and you know exactly what to do as you're playing it and I think that's why he was successful is because he had this idea and it it just worked so um you know certainly with the other manufacturers Keith Elwin you know uh made his Homebrew he just knows how a game works you know you've got the kinetic satisfaction and and and just everything that kind of are are those you know um lwin trademarks he knows knows what works and what doesn't work and he's able to take just Decades of experience and put that in a game and again you know a lot of Home Brewers May like this shot and that shot and kind of clo stuff together like I did I I like Steve Ritchie I like Borg and I kind of Incorporated a lot of those things with my game and other Home brw makers kind of you know do something similar Jack was uh inspired by got Le's weirdness let's make pinball weird again and he certainly did it you saw X-Men my gosh but you walk up to those games like you see food figh you see X-Men you're like that is bananas but I get it it's it's it's just fun yeah Aon do you find yourself like having to walk a fine line in terms of how you talk to people about what their project is versus like just a pure passion project versus like trying to even present it on some kind of level like hey this might be worth picking up you know I I think that like I look at everything from like a like I like to extract potential and something you know it's like how can you take whatever you're doing and let it you know carry on and and go as far as it can go you know and I think that that's one of the things that like there's a lot of effort that we're trying to do as fast to say like you know unless you know unless you've got a compelling reason to do otherwise like follow the examples that we say as far as like build your system up electrically following the guidance and stuff that we do because this is the same guidance that we're telling like commercial manufacturers to do so that's one of the areas that like anytime you've got a Homebrew game you know a lot of the anxiety around a Homebrew game from the idea of taking that to production is yeah just because you can play the game does not mean it's done and does not mean it's production ready and so I think for a lot of companies um looking at like how do we take this game that people enjoyed playing and then get it to a finish releasable product um there's a lot more behind the scenes that it takes to do that so what we always just try to do is to encourage people to say like you know if you have you know if you've got an IP that you want to work with you know there they'll talk about how like sometimes it's harder to work with certain IPS if you've been trotten around a project in the public already um and so there's some of the things on that side of things also but you'll also see now that like you know the amount of effort it takes to put into making an original theme with great artwork and stuff and you know we were just talking about TNA for example I mean all original like totally no issue whatsoever in getting that produced if that opportunity presented itself I mean at Expo this year I mean there was like uh tattoo Mystique by Brian Cox all original design um aball Beyond from uh uh Sean Irby again like you know he's a great player can make a great game these are IPS that if somebody said I want to make that game there is no IP restriction as far as actually producing that stuff so you know I tend to encourage people like one like make a game around something that you're inspired to like use every extra waking hour that you've got to put into that game you know so if that is an existing IP like run with it you know because not a lot of people are aspiring to go from their home brew to a commercial product you know but if you um if you have interest in making something creative when you're working with original artists and stuff like that um original musicians and things like that makes it easier for you know like I love Ian's example of the Saddle Creek thing the one I always use um you know this is your Indie Throwbacks up but baruk records was our local like Indie label you know and the grownup Indie label was like subpop you know and so it was the same kind of thing like if you can build something that's cool and somebody goes you know what like if we put some effort behind this like we could make a small run of these games um I do know that like some of the manufacturers out there are interested in the idea of smaller Run games um but what they don't have the budget and time and bandwidth for is going cool you've got this demo tape that you brought us here now what are you doing electrically what are you doing software-wise how releasable is this game because for the most part every pinball company's got plenty of designers you know so they're not going to be like great here's a home Brewer come work for us that's that's a big that's a tall ask you know for that next step but what we see is that if you've got a a a pinball company that's manufacturing games um those production lines got to keep moving and so if there is a cool fun project to pick up and they can put a reasonable amount of time and energy in finishing that game sourcing certain unique components um that's much more attractive if they're not having to go like you know what are we doing electrically I mean obviously from the fast standpoint we can say like if you build a game on Fast there's commercial manufacturers that are following those same specs so if they go well shoot like there's this cool original theme that we could make 250 of and fill a hole this fall um that leap is a lot smaller there so um I tend to you know anyone who aspires to like make their game I I always highlight the the the gains that exist by not using licensed properties that they don't have control over or even find licenses that are like friendly you know uh look at like Indie video game studios or Indie filmmakers and stuff like that who might just think it's cool to get a pin existing um but anything that's going to make that stuff less of a a barrier entry for a manufacturer is going to make it more likely for your game to actually get picked up talking talking talking a little bit about that barrier of Entry um so the one manufacturer that comes to mind obviously is barrels are fun because they're using um the fast system for all their games at the moment um so it's going to be a lot easier for them to absorb a Homebrew game potentially than it would be for say American pinball who are on a completely different system who would have to uh you I mean at a minimum you'd have to to you know make sure all the hardware sort of is is is ported over but then we've got a software um Port that is required as well um so for barrels are fun are they are they they're not are they using mpf or are they using something else um Eric prepi wrote their own framework using um a gdau game engine Which is popular in like you know video game creation and stuff and in fact like the mission pinball framework the open source python framework now uses the gdo game engine for all its media presentation so all the onscreen graphics and stuff like that um but I think that's one of the areas too that like you know from the electronic standpoint side of things like you know whether you're using like you know mpf or gdau or Unity or unreal like all of those kinds of systems or like a home you know you wrote a system from scratch all that stuff is pretty easy to port and talk or you just talk directly to our Hardware with um so what a company's going to look at so another barrier of Entry is going to be the long-term support of that product yeah so if you wrote a a game framework um you know and I guess that's why I ALS suggest too like don't worry about creating the absolute 100% finished game like you know codewise and stuff like that because you might find that like porting that to a a different framework or something like that might be necessary for that opportunity to to carry on um but yeah so what would be what would be harder from a from a the point of view of shopping that around the manufacturers would it be the hardware or would it be the software that would be the the biggest barrier of entry for for somebody who wanted to produce for a manufacturer I I it's I'd say like you know wise like you know if you're using fast and that company uses fast I mean like pity gaming the Euro pinball Corp over in Europe and the same boat you know the the funh house remakes and other projects coming along or using the same platform that's right yeah I didn't think of them yeah but the software side of things I mean like I'm sure there's software people in the group here um that like understand that like just because something works doesn't mean it's like stable and commercially ready and stuff like that too so that is one of those areas and we talk about kind of the black hole of picking up a project is like how brittle is this code base you know so I think those are those areas too that like um you know nobody wants to be caught blindsided with these things and that's why like we were talking pre-show just about like treat these home brers like a demo tape this is not intended to be on a silver platter ready to be released um it should be something that inspires um a connection to be made and the conversations around how do we take this to a Next Step um yeah and when American picked up um Legends of allalla that that was on a different framework than what American was using and I think I saw that uh Josh cougler has spend some time working that framework to another so I don't think it's a huge lift right if if you know what you're doing and you can kind of talk to the Ines of that so um really hardware and software switches are not insurmountable you know right are you guys how familiar are you guys with the Kill Bill project uh where they made five maybe four or five kill bills are you guys familiar with that one I saw one of the games yeah I'm aware of I've never seen it in person yeah so I guess it was a rethe of World Cup um and and the reason I bring it up is because I like one thing that I I might be focused on is like how do I fund my next project right because you get into it it's going to be really expensive like how do you segue that to the next project so I thought what they did was really interesting and I I don't know how successful it was because I know they they had five of these each one was kind of themed against a different character um they actually reached out to us about maybe doing a topper four it that's why I know a little bit about it but but I thought it was a really cool idea in the sense of you know you how do you how do you fund the next project maybe you can get you create a schematic for someone to kind of build it on their own or kind of work with them to do that maybe not have to worry about the licensing so much because you know you're just kind of doing it in a bit of a club type environment but have you guys seen people doing anything like where they're just trying to get a couple of them going around a particular theme I I would offer that if you're working with an existing IP that you don't own or have a license for you need to be very care care ful how how you pull in funds so I how did I fund my game I sold another game to pay for the art for my next game uh I for this game I have taken no money people offered to buy the the translite this and that I I have not made one Thin nickel for my game same with the next game so there are certainly creative ways I think to crowdsource or fund a game and I've seen people I I think I saw a guy do a Kickstarter once hey I want to build this game throw me some money and it was not successful uh because why why would I do that so are there creative ways to do that sure but really Homebrew is a passion project and if you want to bring a fully fleshed out artistic thing for you to put out in public that you're you're you're you're floating the bill how about uh have you seen any cases where like someone developed like a special shot or a special piece of technology that's been picked up by any any companies is there any cases of that Aon that you've seen I mean I mean there's the the legendary Denise lock you know which like everybody knows now you know um there are there are some there are some unique things that tend to come up and they're usually around kind of that Marquee Mech you know that thing that people want to make that now exists that um you know everyone says like oh you copied this from so and so and I usually try to use the word inspired by like you know if I saw something that you did in a cool format and it inspired me to go and augment that a little bit and create something unique in my game um you see a lot of that kind of stuff kind of Carry On from you know game to game to game um but I think that you know sometimes people will aspire to like create a mechanism and then you know go and try to patent that as as an effort to try and you know secure the designs and generate revenue and stuff like that potentially from that um I usually push back and say just because you have a patent doesn't mean you get money out of it it means you have the opportunity to spend money to defend it and and so I think that that's one of those areas that you know as soon as you get really focused on trying to protect something that you've created as a one-off random person by themselves um that may be something that some people might say like you know this this this might be too complicated to get associated with so I would definitely like consider thoroughly whether um that's something that you want to make the focus of the first project that you made um now that being said like you know I do think that if you create something great in the game that people love and becomes iconic I mean that's how you get the denisi lock I mean we all use that term freely because we know that and it's a recognizable thing now maybe in the short term that's not generating additional Revenue but it made Scott a household name in in pinball and created those opportunities and and I think if everybody created patents for every new invention in pinball then we wouldn't have pinball you know I mean you know so many of what we see in pinball machines now has been is there because somebody had the great idea to put a ramp in a game and everybody was like oh that's a good idea and then ramps are now you be quit to in mball like if somebody had thought to paint in that then you know we we wouldn't grow we wouldn't evolve I just so so so sorry go ahead I no uh well I was just going to say that I I was noticing in chat that Kyle uh funds his home brew the same way that I fun nudge with credit card debt so and and and and who needs two kidneys in in keeping with that if anyone wants to do like a a nudge theme for their home brew just know that I will bring the full extent of the law and I and I will take you for everything that you um So speaking of the law so you know almost all Homebrew projects are for the passion and and the big payoff is letting people see it and letting people play it and that's that's the way it should continue to be but there are risks to even doing that and you could risk that and we've seen that in a couple cases even with this last Expo we had it with I'll say it we had it with the Harry Potter situation with um jjp and we had another one with the uh circuit game um as well where like these people put in all this work and they couldn't even show it on the floor because they got told not to do that so what do what do people need to be thinking about so that they don't find themselves like not being able to celebrate their hard work you know it's it's it's tough because I think that you know as as as we heard all weekend there around some of those projects that you mentioned that like you know everybody's their armchair attorney who goes you know this is Fan Art I'm allowed to do this all that kind of stuff and you know sometimes there's other factors in play you know that that um other people are looking at it from their perspective thinking I got to protect this and this is my IP I got to defend and that kind of stuff I think that um I I think that if you feel the hint of that thought crossing your mind with the project that you're working on you just gota I always look at things as like what's the worst this could possibly go and somebody just straight up says no and makes an effort to stop your project I mean that's that could happen um now on the other hand like sometimes just a convers can make the difference hey I know this is a project that you know you guys have the IP for and this is something that means a lot to me I think it would be a great demonstration of skills and abilities and this is my goal with this is just to make a an N of one like a one version of this that I could bring to Life as a Showcase of my mechanical and software skills and that conversation might make it might be enough to make people go okay yeah fine if you're not selling it and it's just you're making one of these for you go for it you know and I think that that's the kind of thing that um you know again like I said like looking for the worst case scenario and decide like do you really want to go up against an IP holder on something or is it worth a conversation um that's that's the kind of stuff I always try to encourage people to really think hard about because I mean if you spend a bunch of money on a custom artwork for a Playfield and somebody shuts it down like you just wasted a bunch of money for a piece of wall art that's in your garage you know I think the reason why the Harry Potter one got shut down is because it had a kickass quidditch field uh that is no way going to be in the final jjp game Scuttle butt was that jjp would would be uh their game would be compared to the Homebrew Harry Potter which as you saw was just next level but it was it was next level multiple levels in fact it turns out and IPS are different to as Aaron mentioned Harry Potter is this Juggernaut Friday 13th okay that was that was cool when I was 12 you know 40 years ago whatever so not a lot of resistance there right but again I was cautious to pick a a property that for a game that I knew would never get made so Friday 13th the rights are all over place it's a new line Paramount it's it's all over different uh so so one guy owns the rights to the mask one guy owns the rights to the name Friday 13th one guy owns the rights to the name Jason the game is never gonna happen so uh that that that was something that was important to me was to create something that was going to be unique now certainly like uh Steve when he made Leed Zeppelin you know he's he's working hard in this game and here comes Stern woohoo but that doesn't take away from the game that he's got right it's it's still special and and and it's and it's encouraging to me that there that he didn't have an issue bringing that game to the floor um because you're not taking away capital from from Stern right this is they're they're there for the fans and we're all kind of a community but not everybody's like that and and some IPS uh are are every IP is going to be different even if you make an IP that you you think might not go anywhere never know what's going to happen agree all right well we promised to give away a couple copies of nudge to you folks so we've come up with a little bit of uh home R trivia for the fans out there uh Kyle you want to start us off so the way this is going to work um I'll let you kind of think about the question you want to ask uh the way it's going to work is he's gonna ask a question it's gonna be pretty simple answer and whoever answers the question first in the chat uh they will uh will contact you and and get you set up with a copy of nudge so Kyle what's up what do you got um so I'll do the question we talked about in the prep so total nuclear Annihilation by Scott Danesi famous for the denisi lock the original title for that game was not total nuclear Annihilation what was the original title for TNA do we have a drum roll sound effect we need we need we need some music here the original title for TNA anyone was it bullbuster Rick and mor that's might be a decent guess Total Nuclear Annihilation is that so while we wait while we wait for people's answers on this question can I get everybody's um look we've we've already got it we've already can I get everybody's what's what's yeah Jimmy got it what's everybody's top score not in terms of score but in terms of how many reactors have you blown up on TNA does everybody know that F I'm I'm I'm three I think I'm three maybe yeah yeah yeah three sticks in my mind too yeah I had an epic game on ten ball you don't need the glass right to really kind of explore Game Jesus Kyle Jesus man that's you're making a mockery of my question sorry I between Jimmy between Jimmy and Carrie we might have to up the uh the challenge of these questions so so Aaron you're up next Jimmy Jimmy with pin lights took the first one what you for us all right so uh you know we we talked a little bit in the show about you know wanting to someday take your game and and go on and work at a pinball company and stuff so we all know the story of Keith elwin and his home brew game that got him the attention of Stern Pinball and they eventually picked up his game and changed the theme on it to Iron Maiden what was the original theme that he released his home brew uh as I'm so bummed that this wasn't that this wasn't a it would be so good right did anybody did anybody ply it in it's original form like has anybody sort of that ear or pinballs I'm not like that was before my time I I think that I did at least I know for sure I saw it at at the uh Banning Arcade Expo in Southern California um I remember it being present at some show and I think it had to be that one yeah all right Nick Nick takes it nice hold on Nick and and we'll just say that this uh segment was sponsored by nudge magazine because to my know these these Schmo aren't paying me to do this so like this is this is coming from me I'm I just happened to have I just I don't know if these guys brought anything that they were forced to give up but I will just like I was like I am I gonna get something can I talk about what it is uh you know but no that's fine yeah enjoy those magazines guys uh courtesy of me so can I have a yeah I thought we were getting one just byting here no no magazines are really successful it's super easy to make money Adam like so much for like every like every bells and Chimes Community every single person's always like hey like free magazines you're like yeah sure so so listen guys if you're watching this and you don't have one you actually can't buy them they're not available on the website but in the next month if you go to nudge pinball.com we are going to have restocks of every single issue one through four you can get them all uh and they're not going to come from me so they'll come on time um and you're going to love them so so Ian is that is that the best like so obviously you release two times a year um what's the best way to get your magazine then is it by subscription or how do you so we're we're just moving to a one-off model uh they are rather expensive so I will say that this is you're going to have to get over paying $20 for a magazine but I will say they're worth it they come on very high quality p paper they're full of crazy art you get all kinds of like extra stuff in there um but yeah if you go to nudge pinball.com and just go to our store that's the best way Honestly though I would just uh encourage people and this is the last time like I'll plug I'm sorry I sub man go for for it but if you sign if you sign up for our email list that is the best way uh and you'll always know when we're restocked and I and I'm this obnoxious on the email too so well just to be clear we the the in before the lock is paying for those magazines no they're not no they're not they aren't guys already s the money you can't you can't reject PayPal payments I'm sorry work that way this is just how I wanted the shy guy I I thought of I thought of this rant last night as I was falling asleep and I was like I'm gonna just try it so I think it actually went pry so glad you did so glad you did so glad you did yeah I mean getting support these projects I mean like The Artisan small scale like creative stuff I mean that's I mean we taught pre-show it's like those those Indie like DIY days of like you know our youth um that's I think that really it's interesting meeting people like yourself and I've met a lot of others who are like into that era of like when we were you know just you know getting out of high school going off to college and stuff like that like out in the world and finding others that go and create things and make things and support you know bands and artists and all that kind of stuff and like there's so many analogies in the pinball space to that um that I've I've gotten to almost like re rekindle my you know late 90s early 2000 days um with the same kind of camaraderie and stuff like that around these projects so we used to always have the rule that we don't buy drinks until we bought at least something from the touring band's merch table because they're that's how they get to the next city you know so if you bought their seven inch then go buy a beer and then buy them a beer at the same time you know and home roof feels exactly yes exactly that it is that um culture and so that that's what I mean we tap into that culture for nudge uh Ryan Tanner petch who did who did um trash land uh is one of our main illustrator yeah those guys exactly yeah so um it's it's just like it's a very infectious spirit that is in home so let's talk a little bit about where to start like both from a resource perspective but also whether it's a rethe or something from scratch curious kind of your your guys' recommendations on where to really get into this let's let's say I own a bunch of pinball machines I know how to work on them we're kind of past that phase now I want to do a project it depends what you want to do and and that's what's great about Homebrew is this is your baby you can do it by yourself so to speak you can have a group of friends as a team and that's probably one of the first questions right after okay what's the theme right everybody wants to know what the theme is okay are we going to do an original layout or a rethe and there's pros and cons across the board but I'll tell you that an oral layout uh will require uh quite a bit of effort and trial and error to to get it right you know if you have a rethe you kind of have a layout that's already fleshed out the geometry is there now it's just a matter of art code and kind of integrating that theme um but for anybody who's kind of thinking about it certainly don't be shy or apprehensive if you don't know how to code if you don't know how to put together cabinet if you don't like none of us were born with that knowledge I when I started I had no idea how to do any of that but the great news with with Homebrew and Aon can attest to this is that the community is just effing awesome we are there to help you I I still ask questions all the time I'm like I don't know how to do this and I and I would offer that the reason that Hur I think is getting elevated so much is because of the resources that we have look at the software that wasn't available five years ago look at the hardware that guys uh you know on the on the on the fast Team Cobra P3 all that kind of stuff um you can buy cabinet kits now mechs are all over the place pinball life markco I mean everything is there and the resources are there and the tools to use those resources like slack and Discord and uh uh pinside just to be able to communicate so uh the first hurdle is okay am I gonna do this the answer is yes okay oh cool what's the theme and then how am I going to go from there and and it's really Dealers Choice and the cool news is there's no time frame you take as much or as little time as you want keep it in your house forever take it to a show finished unfinished the community is there to help you and I I think that everybody's like hard I would say everyone's hard part is different you know you might look at a game and be like man I write code all day long that's easy but bending metal or cutting wood like who are these Wizards that know how to do this thing and I think that you know anytime you can kind of kind of collaborate with with others um you know that does reduce the things that you're taking on and learning at the same time so anytime you can kind of minimize a little bit um the number of things you're taking on and trying to learn and get you know reasonably good at all at once um the better you know so not only not only like laying out playfields that that's the whole geometry engineering exercise um that takes a lot and that's why we've seen a lot of success with you know games like the greatest showmen or like saw and stuff like that that come to the shows as like re themes of games that we already like to shoot you know and so if you take the fact that like they were using existing Playfield layouts for the most part um there's still a ton of work that it takes to make those projects you know and it's it's a lot I mean the uh the whole saw team I think is made up of like four different people like doing you know Sound Engineering software design like all that kind of stuff and those games look really great um I love like how I think it was at tpf last time or maybe the time before I can't it's all running together but I loved how we were wrapping up the talk that we did and and Ernie silverberg jumps and I was like hold on a sec we've got you all wound up and excited about Homebrew but you're going to come and see these games and these games are like full dress like amazing it was the first time that someone had to disclaim the fact that the Homer games look so good that you shouldn't be intimidated by how good they look um and like like Kyle said like getting your game to a show I mean that's like a a milestone to get to you know it's like you know you've got it barely flipping and you got a couple little modes and stuff like that and it's your Whitewood that's got drill holes all over it it's like bring it because everybody there has been there and they're going to go dude look at this like oh you used the wrong ball guide here I did that too you know and then you see the adjustments that getting made there's just that kind of camaraderie around that stuff but you know I think that um finding the thing that's um I guess the the the inspiration that got you to think you want to make pinball is the thing that I'm always you know most attentive to to like try and help people keep the momentum up and stuff and I think that's where like finding the communities that are going to be supportive of you um and and frankly if you don't have a community yet but home is interesting just bring it to a show and you'll have like nine new best friends before we go home and that's really the the fun of these shows you know I always try to like pay attention to um capturing pictures of people playing people's games and then I share it back with them to be like look at this like uh Brian Cox had his tattoo Mystique game there that had three buttons on it and there was a group of women that were playing split flipper but each you know there was three people playing it you know and I said could I take your picture and send it to the designer because get such KCK out of that and they all kind of posed for it and stuff like that and it it was really cool to like share that back with the people who they couldn't even make it to the show but they wanted their games to be there and be experienced and stuff so just get I mean the barri of Entry to get in the club of home brew is Just One Step Beyond like I want to do it like just drill something into wood and show up and you're in the club we're glad you're there yeah you know checking out these Homebrew games is definitely a major reason I recommend people check out some of these shows especially Expo uh if you haven't been to a show like you're going to experience some stuff in pinball that you didn't didn't know even could exist because these guys are taking the risks um is there other shows Aaron that have a decent home brew scene like Expo is there can you kind of is there other ways for people to go if they're not in that area like the the our anchor shows that we've been going to is um uh Southern Fri Gaming Expo uh pinball Expo in Chicago uh the Texas pinball festival and then our Northwest pinball show that's in June up here um and you know our local show has been like easier for us to kind of bring a deeper experience to and we're trying to do more because I mean it's kind of a track to get up to you know basically the saddle area for for a show but we're going to try and do some some things that create greater greater incentive to make the effort to come up um you know we were talking about ideas uh for next year to say something like maybe we book like 30 minute time slots where it's like do you want Aaron and Dave and Eli to poke around in your game and tell you where you wired something ridiculous and how to fix it you know like just to give like some in-depth feedback on stuff that's harder to get like you know remotely and things like that trying to create like you know each show has kind of its own you know Regional like appeal because you know Expo is good because it's very Central um you know everyone can get there pretty easily um and the one shows that I don't have an anchor show for yet is the uh the Northeast area and I know that like um you know Lyn manuelian and like Aaron and those guys up there like you know they keep saying I I get these drunken phone calls while they're at those shows being like wo we're like drinking and soldering you should be here and my wife's like who are you you talking to you know but I think that um like anytime you can get to a show I mean basically get two or three people together and now people are at the show and I think that you know the the the show that that Kyle and I met at at tpf you know we were trying to work on getting more home BR games there and um it kind of built on itself where it was like oh so and so is coming well shoot then I'll come and if I'm coming I'll pick up this other guy's game because I know he can fly in um it starts to build on itself so you know even if you do have a local show that has no home scene like start to look around I mean I think that everybody needs the slightest like bit of encouragement to um throw their stuff in their in their van and drive out to a show you know so you can really start to build those like little pockets of of of interest and enthusiasm can can I just ask uh eron when is the Northwest uh pinball Expo um It's usually the it's uh usually the first weekend in June somewhere right around there um it's NW pinball show.com um has the address on it but you know we we've been getting more and more people coming up to it because I mean June in the Northwest is gorgeous you know school's out for the end of the year we get people kind of road tripping up they'll go to the show and then travel around the region and stuff like that but like I mean if anybody has the slightest interest in coming out we've been trying to work together with people to like help with Logistics whenever possible to get up there but also like um when you get people together like to do panel talks and we do meetups like one of the things that we do is we do a Home Room Meetup where we put all the games on trucks and dollies and drive them over to the hotel next door and we you know bring a bar over bring drink tickets and stuff like that and have an after hours kind of thing where it's not the noise of the show floor but that way we can you know bring designers and stuff like that over that can actually have conversations about these games and that's something that has been very popular I thought it was just going to be too much work and next year this the following year everyone's like where's the cart like let's get rolled over and go over and do that event again so well yeah come out if you need like a pallet of free nudge magazines just hit me up and okay that would be great well awesome yeah yeah let's do it cool well we were all at Expo uh to to wrap things up today I just love to kind of do a little bit of a round table on what was that like one shot or that one experience you had in home brew that you loved again these guys make some amazing stuff and uh everyone needs to get a chance to experience it but I'm curious if you guys had the kind of one thing that really stood out to you uh from the show uh right away for me I think about boy night out and how much that has developed uh into what it is now and how great it is I'm sorry uh Aron tell me who the designer is of that game uh that's Joel um Joel yeah it's joiser sorry yes it is such a great um it's so it's based on an indie movie that that he also made and the artwork is phenomenal it's the only um evidence of of some pretty hardcore drug use that I've ever seen uh featured prominently on a Playfield that's as specific as I'll get for YouTube uh but um it's also just a really fun game like he said he told me um I just I vibed on that game probably I played five or six games in a row Saturday night I was so tired and Mike from Flipper room and a couple other people we were like let's just go like let's let's try this thing out and it was just such a fun I mean I legit had a good time it's it's so funny that we don't have to grade on a curve anymore for Homebrew they've gotten so good that you're like this isn't good for Homebrew it's good so like uh that was a game where it's like there's some really it's fun um there are all kinds of modes I think I ended up crashing it because you can just start unlimited modes basically uh but yeah that was a highlight for me absolutely well my my favorite and I I love have seeing this develop is trash lands I think is it is it Ryan Tanner that made that yeah um if I if I think about a game that if I wanted to buy like a oneoff of something it would be that because because I I love rubbe Goldbergs which is are the Contraptions like mous trap and I feel like that game captures a rub Goldberg differently than any other pinball machine that I've been a part of I'm also generally just don't like weird form factors for pinball machines but like that one uh just makes sense for me like I feel like that game would actually not work if it weren't in a weird form factor in in an oddly sh shaped cabinet so definitely shout out to him and I and I love that he just keeps going at it like it's like I asked him I was like have did you basically like start this over from scratch because it looks like it's all new and he's like well not 100 perc but he's just like keeps going at it so definitely a huge shout out to him Kyle do you have any uh da Dave's like just he's just coming in and out we don't know what's going on with him my my mic's still here it's just my my yeah my my mic's still here so I can still I can still give you guys [ __ ] it's just my camera can't like you know do this um should I quickly go then while my camera is still working so for me it's for me it's the eight shut up man it's GNA shut off soon it's the battery um for me it's the eight for me it's the eight ball Beyond shot um which wasn't at Expo per se but it was at tpf wasn't it um and that you know I've talked about a lot on the show before but essentially you can lock a you can lock a ball behind a uh like a a drop down Target um in multiball and then and then hit that same uh drop Target to knock the ball up and then hit hit both balls sort of into into a scoop it's like a like a pull trick shot um and he was talking me through it and and sorry I don't I don't remember people's names very well but um Aon you might be able to help me out here the eight ball beond designer was yeah Sean and uh he was Sean and you know I met him and had a big chat with him lovely guy uh and he was trying to talk cuz I I sort of I'd sort of seen this on video um uh I think there was a gif like an animated gif sort of showing the trick shot um in all its glory and so I was like this is this is what I want to do in the game so he was sort of talking me through it during multiball telling me how to do it and I sort of got to the point of knocking down the drop Target and trying to hit the trick shot but I didn't actually nail it so yeah for me that's that's I thought that was just such a a brilliant idea so simple you know it's almost like it should have been done before but it never has been um and you know it's not some standout Mech or some really complicated thing it's just a really great idea executed really brilliantly and fits really well within the theme of that of that game um you know yeah that's brilliant cool Kyle any uh favor takeaways yes my take away from this chat appreciate you having me on is uh regardless of what Aaron says kids soldering and drinking do not mix I mean they Mi but you might get burned or like you know Miss something but yeah and then uhh drinking and really anything pinball related like like fixing a game don't don't mix drinking and playing sure um my biggest takea away from Expo and everybody says this is the folks that I got to hang out with right it was a treat hanging out with Nick and Allison at the booth right Rob uh it was great hanging out with you I I got to meet the FKS that I was collaborating with and and talking with for almost a year right Kyle uh Mike Mandola who did the OverWatch game I mean just to be able to see like dude you know you're you're just so excited everybody loves to show off their game and they want to see your game and it's just that's the energy that's the buzz that people walk away from and they go [ __ ] I want to be involved with that that I think is why Aaron took so many orders people catch that Vibe they they feel that and they want to be a part of it um the hard part comes with the work right and the lol after the show where you've got this box of wires and boards and you know what to do and you're pulling out whatever little hair you have left um but getting to that show connecting with the people that have helped you and you've helped them is just something else it's super cool definitely definitely a lot of work to drag these bad boys all across the country but it sounds like there's some good good spots to hit these up um well thank you everybody for joining us uh this has been a ton of fun I mean there's uh again I'll ask one more time is there any like what's the best is it Facebook groups is it pinside like where's the best place to start meeting meeting some of these folks go to shows go to shows go shows man G agree awesome armchair quarterbacks in the home brw scene like you you brought something there like you know you'll see all these people are just like all of us and they're excited about a project that's you know giving us some something to do a reason to wake up and buy some new tools and learn some new things and share it with people so it's good stuff absolutely all right well everyone again thank you so much uh guys check them out uh we got a couple videos on the end before the lock from The Homebrew section as well as interview with Aaron with fast um check out nudge magazine again the newsletter it's free it's great content and pick up some magazines along the way uh Ian thanks for uh not donating magazines to our our folks here and uh and to our winners Carrie and to Jimmy we'll be in touch so guys signing off have a great night and we will see you soon [Music]

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-06-06 | Item ID: 54ea3e28-fe18-4f73-829c-d83820455503*