# Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 46 - 2023 CrossOver With LoserKids!

**Source:** The Pinball Network  
**Type:** video  
**Published:** 2023-12-19  
**Duration:** 113m 12s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffAQCHs66zk

---

## Analysis

Triple Drain and Loser Kid podcasts crossed over for a joint episode recorded on Friday morning. The hosts discussed the cancellation of the live ceremony for the Twippy awards due to threats and drama involving content creators, including allegations of a plan to manipulate award results and violent threats. They then transitioned to discussing Spooky Pinball's new tandem releases (Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes) with the same playfield layout but different code and rules.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Twippy awards will not have a live ceremony at TPF; voting will be online instead with results shared through filmed or streamed format — _Joel reported this was announced Friday morning; he noted voting opens Monday (the 16th or 18th)_
- [MEDIUM] Private messages revealed a plan to ensure a specific content creator (Chris Canada) would win the Twippy award, with additional threatening messages about stabbing — _Joel stated he received permission to discuss this and heard it from multiple sources; no direct documentation shown_
- [MEDIUM] Threats of violence against award show organizers (Colin and Will) contributed to the decision to cancel the live ceremony — _Joel and others mentioned threats escalating and safety concerns; attributed to toxicity in the community_
- [HIGH] Last time Twippy published vote counts, the largest category had only 2,800 total votes — _Josh or Scott stated this metric when discussing the small percentage of the pinball community voting_
- [HIGH] There are currently 42,500 active IFPA tournament players (those who played at least one tournament in the last 3 years) — _Travis cited this figure to put Twippy voting in perspective_
- [HIGH] Spooky Pinball released two new games with the same playfield layout but entirely different code and rules: Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes — _Josh and Scott stated they released an interview with Bug and Spooky Luke 24 hours prior covering these releases_
- [MEDIUM] The new Spooky layout has four ramps and is a callback to 1990s Williams layouts — _Scott described the layout; Tom confirmed four ramps after some discussion_
- [HIGH] A new Twippy category was created: 'Favorite Content Creator,' with previous award winners ineligible — _Travis explained the new category rules, listing ineligible creators (Straight Down The Middle, TNT Amusements, Chris Canada, Nap Arcade)_

### Notable Quotes

> "the majority of people that podcast only shill we only speak positivity and we get money we get money and we get money"
> — **Joel or Scott (reading comments)**, early in episode
> _Sets up the running joke about podcasters being accused of shilling for manufacturers_

> "I paid over God knows how much that was at the time 100 plus dollars... and it's not there. I'm just like what has happened here"
> — **Scott**, mid-episode
> _References unsigned Iron Maiden translite from Stern, humorous consumer complaint_

> "there was a private message sent to the twip committee... there was a message from a private chat about a plan to have have Chris win the award like they were GNA strive to have Chris... and make sure that Colin handed him the award"
> — **Joel**, Twippy discussion
> _Major claim about award manipulation and drama; Joel stated he had permission to discuss this_

> "I have kids I wouldn't want to go to one of these award shows and and not come home to my kids"
> — **Joel**, Twippy safety discussion
> _Illustrates the severity of safety concerns driving the cancellation decision_

> "if you feel like hey I you know these these awards are important these people need to be recognized for their work you know honestly the the best thing you can do is shoot us an email or message us on Facebook or you know share an episode"
> — **Tom**, end of Twippy discussion
> _Encapsulates the hosts' philosophy that listener engagement matters more than trophies_

> "the active ifpa players right now so this is if you've played one tournament in the last three years uh is 42,500... if you take combined Stern American pinball spooky pinball cgc all their followers they have over a million followers combined so really 2,800 votes is kind of a drop in the bucket"
> — **Travis**, Twippy voting analysis
> _Uses metrics to contextualize how small the Twippy award voting is relative to the pinball community_

> "I like how they Incorporated some things like the uh the drop targets the subway behind it uh the scoop behind the drop targets uh uh what I didn't like was like the shot goes like right into it from what I saw uh from the stream"
> — **Tom**, Spooky layout discussion
> _Tom's design critique of the new tandem layout; provides specific mechanical feedback_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Joel Ingleberth | person | Co-host of Triple Drain Pinball Podcast; organizer of the crossover episode with Loser Kid |
| Scott Larson | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; appears on both shows in this crossover |
| Josh Roop | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; interviewed Bug and Spooky Luke about new releases |
| Travis Murie | person | Co-host of Triple Drain Pinball Podcast; high-ranked IFPA competitive player; had technical issues on previous episode |
| Tom Graf | person | Guest on this crossover episode; ranked high in IFPA; provides design critique on games |
| Bug | person | Co-owner/creative director of Spooky Pinball; appeared on Loser Kid episode 126 to discuss new releases |
| Spooky Luke | person | Co-designer and technical lead at Spooky Pinball; appeared on Loser Kid episode 126 to discuss new releases |
| Chris Canada | person | Content creator (Canandian's Pinball Podcast); allegedly involved in Twippy award drama; upset about award changes |
| Colin | person | Twippy award committee member; allegedly received threats; made decisions about canceling live ceremony |
| Will | person | Twippy award organizer; made decision to cancel live ceremony due to safety and drama concerns |
| Keith Elwin | person | Designer; appeared on Triple Drain episode with Tom Graf; signature was supposed to be on Iron Maiden translite but was missing |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Manufacturer releasing Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes as tandem games with shared playfield layout |
| Triple Drain Pinball Podcast | organization | Pinball podcast hosted by Joel Ingleberth and Travis Murie; crossed over with Loser Kid for this episode 46 |
| Loser Kid Pinball Podcast | organization | Pinball podcast hosted by Josh Roop and Scott Larson; crossed over with Triple Drain for this episode |
| Twippy Awards | event | Annual pinball content creator awards; live ceremony cancelled due to threats and drama; voting to be online only |
| IFPA | organization | International Federation of Pinball Players; maintains tournament rankings and player statistics |
| Texas Chainsaw Massacre | game | New Spooky Pinball tandem game; shares playfield with Looney Tunes but has different code and rules |
| Looney Tunes | game | New Spooky Pinball tandem game; shares playfield with Texas Chainsaw Massacre but has different code and rules |
| Venom | game | Stern pinball game mentioned for layout comparison with new Spooky tandem games |
| Straight Down The Middle | organization | Pinball podcast/streaming show; host ineligible for new Twippy 'Favorite Content Creator' category due to past wins |
| TNT Amusements | organization | Pinball content creators; ineligible for new Twippy 'Favorite Content Creator' category |
| Nap Arcade | organization | Pinball content creators; ineligible for new Twippy 'Favorite Content Creator' category |
| Iron Maiden | game | Stern pinball game; translite offered by manufacturer in March 2021 through all-access program; Scott's copy was unsigned |
| The Pinball Network | organization | Platform hosting Triple Drain Pinball Podcast |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Twippy Awards cancellation and safety concerns, Community toxicity and online threats in pinball, Spooky Pinball tandem releases (Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes)
- **Secondary:** Playfield layout analysis and design critique, Pinball podcaster culture and perceived influence, Award show legitimacy and voting demographics, Content creator motivations vs. trophy culture
- **Mentioned:** Technical issues with streaming/recording

### Sentiment

**Mixed** (0.35) — Generally negative tone regarding Twippy awards drama, toxicity, and threats. More optimistic about Spooky's new game designs. Hosts express frustration with award show complexity but support the underlying mission and encourage voting. Humorous banter throughout softens the serious safety discussion.

### Signals

- **[community_signal]** Twippy awards live ceremony cancelled due to reported private messages about award manipulation and violent threats against organizers and content creators (confidence: high) — Joel: 'there was a private message sent to the twip committee... there was a message from a private chat about a plan to have have Chris win the award'; mentions plan to 'hurt Colin' and stabbing threat
- **[event_signal]** Twippy awards transitioning from live ceremony to online voting with filmed/streamed results; new 'Favorite Content Creator' category created with previous winners ineligible (confidence: high) — Will and Colin announced no live show at TPF; voting online starting Monday; Travis explains new category rules and ineligible creators
- **[product_launch]** Spooky Pinball released two games with identical playfield layout but entirely different code and rules: Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes (confidence: high) — Josh/Scott: 'they released tandem games they same layout but entirely different uh codes and rules and all that stuff the te Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes'
- **[design_innovation]** Spooky Pinball introducing tandem games where same physical playfield supports two different licensed themes with completely separate rule sets and code (confidence: high) — Multiple hosts discuss the novelty of same layout with different codes; Josh/Scott note this is an interview focus point
- **[gameplay_signal]** New Spooky tandem layout features four ramps, four flippers, drop targets, subway feature, and scoop; described as callback to 1990s Williams design (confidence: high) — Scott: '90s B Williams layout'; Tom confirms 'four ramps Four Horsemen'; detailed discussion of mechanical elements
- **[community_signal]** Triple Drain and Loser Kid podcasts conducted joint crossover episode recorded Friday, released simultaneously on both platforms to combine audiences (confidence: high) — Joel: 'we just wanted to team up and chat it up a little bit here at the end of the year'; episode released as 'Multiverse' with audio on both channels
- **[content_signal]** Loser Kid interviewed Bug and Spooky Luke about new Spooky releases in episode 126, released within 24 hours of this crossover recording (confidence: high) — Josh/Scott: 'we released this not even 24 hours ago... bug and spooky Luke came on the show'
- **[market_signal]** Twippy awards receive only ~2,800 votes in largest category; represents tiny fraction of 42,500+ active IFPA players and over 1 million combined manufacturer followers (confidence: high) — Travis provides comparative metrics; hosts discuss how niche voting is relative to community size
- **[sentiment_shift]** Community skepticism about legitimacy of Twippy awards growing; debate over whether small voting sample, manipulation attempts, and toxicity undermine purpose (confidence: medium) — Extended discussion of award show value; Tom: 'I don't see the point of it unfortunately'; hosts debate peer nomination vs. public voting
- **[product_concern]** Hosts express concern about reliability and quality control of small manufacturers like Spooky due to limited service resources for home buyers (confidence: medium) — Scott: 'I'm always concerned about small companies and reliability because I am not a mechanic... I don't have the kind of time to work on my games'
- **[personnel_signal]** Keith Elwin involved in recent Triple Drain episode; appears to be strained relationship with podcast hosts based on comment about him being 'done with us' (confidence: low) — Joel: 'I'm pretty confident after our last episode Keith might just be done he might be done with'; vague reference suggests prior episode had tension
- **[manufacturing_signal]** Spooky Pinball leveraging tandem game concept with high-contrast themes (violent Texas Chainsaw Massacre vs. family-friendly Looney Tunes) on same hardware (confidence: high) — Josh/Scott discuss interview covered 'quality control... Playfield layout... art and the artists'; noted as 'opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to licensing'

---

## Transcript

[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast thanks for tuning in to the triple drain pinball podcast this is episode number 46 I am Joel engleberth with my co- Captain as always Scott L I'm um okay do our intro now no yeah for you got it like oh you oh sorry sorry yeah you do ours yeah oh uh Tom what do you have to say I got a lot I know there's always a screw up at the beginning there's always a screw up and then Joel's like never mind I'm starting the show so yeah yeah yeah yeah we do have a big deal though right we have the last package no yeah oh wow we have the last pack package from spooky big big package big package they sent us a package and it clearly stated do not open it until after they release the game so all the content creators got all these packages we got ours too we had to wait till the podcast but we got it MH I'm excited this I'm excited too what do you guys think it is do you want to now show the Box show big show us your box oh from from spooky best it says with the hearts yeah or the Roses wowe that's so creepy especially if it's from like chainsaw from Texas Chainsaw what's in the box wait so we'll get when we talk about spooky you saving it for then is that the is that your no we'll do it right after the inro we're doing it right now oh we're actually playing I wasn't planning on playing the intro I just thought you know out of respect oh that's true because this is a crossover episode I'm telling you right now I'm too lazy to mesh so it's like Multiverse we're both on Triple drain and loser kid at the same time watch name it just all that means Scott Travis Tom pinball my whole effort guys has finally paid off the end of 2023 I've tried to get on loser kid now for like 5 years straight and finally we're just meeting in the middle you know I'm like the little or so you want me to open this now then well here so what I will say is for this is a this is how good we are if if this is if you're listening to this on the loser kid Channel Tom Travis and myself we are triple drain we're triple drain you'll find us on tpn or vice versa if you're hearing this on the triple drain uh podcast loser kid is on Scott and Josh with loser kid same episode two places if you really love us feel free to listen to it in both spots but uh but welcome hopefully uh hopefully it's a fun episode we just wanted to team up and chat it up a little bit here at the end of the year give everybody something fun to listen to over holiday breaks so Travis please open the box that has what could be in the Box uh I think it's the twirly chainsaw guy okay that's what I thought yeah leather face well it's not dripping so I'm not going to say mystery meat yeah that'd be creepy okay we're going to open it uhoh it's a piece of paper oh oh maybe like a design of the FL maybe it's a treasure sketches I don't know okay is a recipe it's Michael Myers flipping off Michael Myers flipping off I thought we weren't talking about Halloween anymore yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um that is a solid bit entirely created by Travis Muay the one the only wearing the fake trees sweater yeah nice yeah man seriously so what best thing ever fantastic so there have there's been a lot that's happened over the last few weeks and uh one of the comments that I love read reading is the fact that the majority of people that podcast only shill we only speak positivity and we get money we get money and we get money and we get a lot of cutbacks because clearly what we say impacts sales so if we help sell games then you know clearly we're all getting checks I'm quitting my job next week yeah Tom and I are out of medicine we're done so this is just so lucrative it it was comical at least in the conversation in the background because we're like what are you talking about like we don't Halloween is a perfect example of a game that I'm pretty confident all five of us set our opinions on and they weren't particularly positive um oh you remember multimorphic gate that was like two years ago now talking about that American pinball has kind of been gtf we are all hyped on gtf and now we're kind of uh well we all when we talked about Texas afterwards Texas were like hey how was that tank how was that tank on everybody well not me that look at Expo like Expo we walked away from that how I haven't heard a positive thing about Turner pinball or about or about pinball Adventures or like yep I don't know how we're Win Schilling for them it's it's the eye of the beholder messaging that goes out I haven't said very positive things about Venom oh I heard Venom is just flying off the shelves thanks to us pinball podcasters yeah okay so that's why we haven't got our checks because we're not because Venom hasn't you need to help me sell more Venoms that's what it is yep I mean I'm such a shill that they took clips of my stream Stern took clips of my stream and used it as marketing material yeah did I get a check no I don't get anything hey Travis's translate wasn't even signed oh yeah oh we're already going there well so for the listeners I don't know if you guys remember this on all access for stern this happened like two and a half years ago March of 2021 they put it out the Iron Maiden Pro translite signed by I guess lwin and the team right Scott so I'm not memory holding this like I no and I still have it un unopened so I was surprised when I heard that Travis opened his and found nothing I was like it's just a translate I'm looking I'm like where the f is ke like it was just Michael Myers flipping you off that's really it was Keith Elwin it was eln with an Iron Maiden hat flipping you off oh my God yeah so I paid over God knows how much that was at the time 100 plus dollars yeah it wasn't too crazy but it was supposed to be for the game room yeah so I've had it in this in the tube for two and a half years and I was waiting until I got settled in I was going to put it up I was all excited and it's not there I'm just like what has happened here we should probably try to see if Josh and Scott can get it signed by Keith cuz I'm pretty confident after our last episode Keith might just be done he might be done with us he might be done with I know you guys are listening please help me give my translate signed by the team I paid for it that's actually why we're doing a double crossover exactly we're like we really you know what Travis I will sign your iron baiten um thank you I appreciate it um no uh another random side note here last week's or last last episode of triple drain was a uh a malfunctioning mess uh in regards to tra which is a normal episode but it was extremely it was it was a whole another level and honestly you know the silver lining of that is Tom shined Tom graph was on his A+ game he crushed it him and Keith could have just they were just hitting it off I mean what what people don't realize Joel because I didn't realize none of my video came through at the end that I was sitting there the whole entire backside of the episode like no I was on the screen with them they just couldn't hear me I was so delayed but I was there and so instead it's just a static image it was a good hey Joel I did just you waving to us on the roof I went down the street I went to the garage I went to the porch the the only thing Travis saw was at the end of the port hole them looking down saying it rubs the lotion on the skin get the hose I say the reason your guys' numbers are so high it's because Travis has become a betting game I don't know if you know this in the background we've got a pool going yeah so the people at 5 minutes or less with elato no signal that's a pretty big chunk of people leaving or getting knocked out in the first five minutes 10 minutes is coming up so you know we'll see what happens he said he said he might have finally installed the utility he needs I think I did it correct so we will know we will know within the next 20 minutes it's 30 minutes right at 30 minutes is when it shuts out all right so but hey okay well enough of the backstory of this mess um yeah talk about another mess another me good transition look at that tppy tippies it's uh we're recording this on Friday morning um will with the tppy just put out a statement that essentially there will not be a live show at tpf so there is no live show cere live ceremony for Tes at tpf um I think the plan is they're still going to do it it's still going to be online voting I think that voting opens next week There's still online voting now how they're going to share those results whether or not it's a a filmed segment or maybe a live uh table read stream kind of like what Zack and Greg did the first two years of the Tes don't know we'll have to wait and see on that um and then well we'll just start with that so thoughts go well I I want to give a quick thought on on this because I want to preface this to I don't know why this really hasn't been discussed I did get permission to talk about this and you guys know about this in the background um so originally before every everything was shut down um there were I think this is what fed into the decision as well there was a private message sent to the twip committee or tppy because twip and tppy are very much separate reading this uh this thing but um there was a message from a private chat about a plan to have have Chris win the award like they were GNA strive to have Chris we're talking about canan's pinball podcast Chris to to win the award and make sure that Colin handed him the award kind of is like I'm rubbing in your face uh and then one of his followers had said be careful I know had just said just stab him when he does give you the award and so I think that played into this um I think that's another reason too like when then when like it all got shut down like when the content creator stuff it got pushed to the side I actually didn't hear this from the TP committee I had heard from other sources too there was then a plan to to hurt Colin coming up and so I think this was part of the reason where they're like you know what we're we're just not going to do a live show and and we're just going to record this because it it just it's getting out of control and and uh that's personally me if you haven't listened to The Eclectic glamer podcast their last episode it perfectly articulated all of this um I know that they knew about this in the background they were trying to dance around it without releasing this information but like I said I did I did get permission to talk about this and so um I don't know I think I think this is why this is why we're pulling the plug it's not it's not because of a particular podcaster or whatnot it's because there's some crazies out there and and I I have kids I wouldn't want to go to one of these award shows and and not come home to my kids yeah yeah it's well the people are just getting riled up they obviously have nothing better to do at this point it's just yeah it's too much toxicity around it and I mean everybody knows how I feel about award shows for us like I think all of us content creators are Knuckleheads except for Tom Tom's a beauty but the rest of us yeah it's like I don't know I've never understood award shows for us and it's always been odd to me that we're attached to the same thing that manufacturers that are multi-million dollar companies are attached to the same exact award show but you know like like I told you guys before too like I try to see it from both ways as well why people are fully into this and that's perfectly fine for a lot of people this could be their world championship you know and that's that's perfectly fine too but yeah there's definitely a line that gets crossed when you start threatening that type of stuff that's fully crossing a line and you got to take every every threat seriously like you just you have to and that's just sadly that's the way the world works today yep yeah no I think um I think the last thing that tpf wants the TPP want really anybody in in pinball wants is an award show where you're trying to celebrate the good or the the exciting the the great in pinball um The Best of the Best in pinball that somehow results in violence or aggression or you know um some sort of protest or whatever like it's not even that it's it's on top of that it's that the drama outside of it exceeds like the actual award show you know what I mean it's so niched down too there's there's only a small percentage of us that are even aware of the show there's even a smaller percentage of us that even care about the show they even want to go you know what I mean it's niched down so much so it's like why go through that headache because it's not easy putting on the shows either you know what I mean it takes a lot of effort to do that so it's kind of just weighing your return well thece part is your return on your time tpp's actually like posted all their results for years now and they switched from actually how many votes were being published to a percentage thing but the last time they published votes there was a total of 2,800 votes for the biggest category that's total I mean that's yeah that's small and pinball I just yeah g giving you a uh just giving you a snapshot onto sales the vast majority of people who buy pinball machines or play pinball machines have no idea that this like Niche content creator stuff is even possible yeah and so like they they don't know a lot of them just buy stuff and okay just think about this way how many of you I'll just pick out a random random man how many of you know de leopard or know their songs okay yeah everybody right okay how many of you are members of their fan club and get emails and updates about what the band's doing right now very small right and so Ju Just think about that in percentage of how many people actually are playing pinball or associated with pinball versus even invested in I don't want to undermine because I I think it is valuable to say hey we recognize in this Niche that there is a winner and there's someone who is who is putting out stuff that is helping the uh helping the industry or helping our entertainment value but you need to take that with perspective well and just put it into perspective too we were talking about this behind the scenes the active the active ifpa players right now so this is if you've played one tournament in the last three years uh is 42,500 that's just tournament Players and if you if you take combined Stern American pinball spooky pinball cgc all their followers they have over a million followers combined so really 2,800 votes is kind of a drop in the bucket it's it's kind of it's hard to put best content creator label on it when you're getting such a small snapshot of who's actually voting in my okay well that's true I I'm just I don't want to undermine the award either because I just think it needs to be taken like underplay it or I don't want to it doesn't matter at all because it obviously matters to some and some more than others however to to just keep it in I I said this before in the background you know that pickup basketball game where a few people are way more aggressive than they probably should be yeah and where there's a broken nose or an elbow or threats of burning their house down or you know just whatever that's why I put Travis on our team when we do those games right right TR but no but it's you just need to remember what this is why it's there and also social limits on you know there's a reason like Josh says and Travis says there's a reason why people uh threat online and whether or not that is intentional you have no context you have no information on on how sincere this person is if they are joking if they are bonkers and so you have to realize uh we need to be at least aware that this is going on and if you don't think that that actually plays into the psyche of the organizers and the peace of mind and the entertainment value then you're crazy well I mean let's go to the most sane person here Tom can you really can you wrap this up or what are overall thoughts I mean you you pretty ranked you're ranked real high on the ifpa I mean if you want to speak for all of them this this doesn't have anything to do with that ifba yeah this is not t yeah tppy is not tournament pinball and and Travis is ranked higher than me anyways but oh um honestly I I honestly don't think it was a good idea that they got rid of the nominations um okay I mean me personally sorry I'm my eyes are on my dog right now um but uh I obviously it's caused a lot of drama in the Hobby and it's escalating and now the tppy are gone from tpf so now you're going to watch a show that's not live so unfortunately some people are really concerned about a plastic trophy I mean and let's be honest it's a plastic it's a plastic trophy the same people have won it for the last like what seven years yeah yeah let's move yeah yeah six whatever it is what are you these are important Tom what are you hugging Travis his degenerate trophy oh okay yeah this means more to me than anything else yeah you're double zero yeah no I I totally get it and um the the reality is I mean um I just don't see the point of it un fortunately the the the media Awards became a competition and I and I don't I don't see the the point of that I mean I don't none of us started podcasting to compete or claim that we're the best I mean honestly we're doing a joint episode right now and I hope the numbers come out equal I mean there's no there's no like I don't triple Jin's not better than loser kid loser kid like I don't care it's just we just want to make record loser kid is better yes triple better so I Know Travis you really want to be a part of them but it's got just I mean but I can't speak for Josh or Scott but I know I could speak for Joel and Travis we don't do this for trophy do this because it's something we like to do and it's fun and and we actually have slightly well we okay we have different focuses on each of our shows I me you have two okay of the three of you you have two top level players and then you also have Travis oh uh got him got yeah B Bazinga okay uh but Josh and I we tend to be more of the fans side we tend to get interviews we tend to talk about things that are not the the weekly things going on in pinball we try to take a topic and talk about it and so we have different approaches but we legitimately I think we probably have one of the most active text threads that I'm that I'm associated with because we are talking all the time because we're friends yeah the five of us yes yes and that's that I don't know that's my whole thing is um honestly what I would say is if if you're a listener thank you thank you first and foremost for being a listener but if you feel like hey I you know these these awards are important these people need to be recognized for their work you know honestly the the best thing you can do is shoot us an email or message us on Facebook or you know share an episode like hey I love this like that's the like that's that's plenty that's plenty of of of an award if you think we need any sort of recogn recognition because um I know at least the five of us we go to shows like they have people come up to us at shows and say you know they enjoy the podcast or you know thanks for doing it because you make car rides a little shorter you know like that's what it's all about and and sure I would love all five of us to have a trophy this year for whatever but best team up yeah best team up but we don't we don't need it I mean um I I don't know I just it's weird it's just a shame that the last two weeks have gone the way they have I feel bad for literally everybody involved you know you had people like Lucas and amoto that were pumped ready to go ready to present that live show is now done you know will the the you know Will's obviously making CH making decisions that he thinks are the best for the community he's nobody's wanting to just tear this down same with Colin I mean and I understand Chris Canada he's upset but um you know when you when you share that frustration when you share that anger to the public hoping that they support you in that anger anger you know it's you just it festers and grows and then all of a sudden that anger can become bigger than you ever thought it would be and then people will get scared or hurt or intim like and I mean I I will say I get it from the standpoint of the content creators that do care about an award like I get it because you look behind me I care about competitive pinball I play I work hard at it to try to compete I travel for it so I get that hey by the way for people who aren't video The Humble bragas Travis just reached over to his gigantic Awards he's got a lot of trophies but the point being is that there's there's plenty of people that play in pinball leagues right that have a ranking that don't care like they don't they just want to drink beer they just want to come have fun and that's essentially what we are to the content creation world and there's other people that want to try to be the the highlevel player that that want to try to win everything and the tppy is literally their world championship that that is that's the way that I can make an equivalent of it so yeah it's couple things that go against each other essentially right it's I mean it's just like last year I completely forgot we were even nominated and then Joel you had to come to the tournament room to remind me we were even presenting yeah you know you weren't there well yeah exactly it's like because he was competing for another trophy right yeah exactly his Focus which he thought he could win that one instead of Carl messed it up for me okay thanks Carl but yeah that's the point though we we all enjoy what we enjoy and we enjoy it for the reasons that we do so I definitely don't want to take that away just because some of us here or maybe all of us don't give a [ __ ] really about something else somebody else may so I get that part it's just to me there's just better ways to go about it and I think what's come out is that a lot of people are they they basically make it to where it's about celebrating the hobby right it's about celebrating the content creator so if you're going to do that I think that the way that they're doing it now is probably the best way to go about it the only other way you could possibly do it when it comes to nominees and everything is make it a peer nomination only your peers that are within that category can nominate like the top five and then let the fans Vote or something like that or let the public vote I think that that's an easier way to do it because then you you end up making it to where it doesn't just come down to popularity you know and that's I mean it is what a fan vote is but let's face facts it's so Niche that if you're playing the infinite game and content creation you've been around for eight to 10 years you should be winning everything over somebody else that doesn't have the same resources or if somebody decides to spend five to $10,000 on marketing you should win the little plastic trophy even if you've only been around for six months yeah like that's just the reality of it it's about how you mobilize people well and what to bring that to a point too is like even a couple coup years back when when super awesome pinball shows started to start marketing they you know they Ed their sponsorship start sending out emails to say hey vote for us and stuff like that people shouted it down because they felt like it wasn't truly winning the award you were using resources so what there's been invisible barriers and lines put up around this like it's just it's a very dramatic thing and it's just kind of stupid and it does come down to what you're all saying what what are you in content creation for what is are you in it for a trophy are you in it to to further the industry are you in it just so your voice can be heard what what are why are you doing this I I will give a little plug though at the end of the day we do support what Colin and Will are doing because there are there are more positives than negatives and we would encourage you to go and vote and vote your opinion uh when voting opens on I think the 16th right 18th Monday 18th so Monday yeah yeah and there is a new category there is a new category it is the cont favorite content creator so they just kind of wrapped it all up into one and then the the the caveat or caveat to that Travis how do you say that word because it's going to be wrong caveat there sure okay so um caveat oh oh okay um it yeah so um the the the favorite content creator it's what they're saying is if you've won an award in the past you're not eligible so um straight down the middle can't win TNT amusements can't win Canada can't win nap arcade can't win um so what what will be interesting there is you know some of those people do Crossovers and so or they do other things so they may do a podcast but then they also do a stream so is the stream eligible but the podcast isn't Joel's talking about himself well so Canada Canada does Facebook lives could his live win let the let the categories be their own thing like if you do a different show that's a different show pinball show could he win pro it's like so I'm very curious to see how that pans out but um there is something there so if if you do have a media uh Creator what whatever it is that you um you want to vote for uh graph is spelled grf so Tom T oom G RF I don't know if it's right in just find the drop down and um yeah we'll make it happen oh Tom's chug Tom's already hitting it it's it's 8 in the it's 9 in the morning Tom let's go Tom okay 10 he's closer to lunch than we are it's Mountain Dew for those that means he's ready to talk about spooky yeah I think we're good that was I think we're good on that we'll wrap up uh we'll tie up the bow on tppy so uh yeah voting starts Monday let's uh see how that goes uh spooky pinball uh let's let's actually I'm gonna let Josh and Scott introduce this because you guys just recently interviewed him so um go yeah we released this not even 24 hours ago about 24 hours to the point like to the mark uh bug and spooky Luke came on the show to talk about their new releases they released tandem games they same layout but entirely different uh codes and rules and all that stuff the te Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes which is a pretty opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to licensing yeah um besides you know they're both violent I guess I don't know yeah yeah Warner Warner Brothers has always been on the cartoon comic violent size yeah and yeah and going from our interview it we kind of triy to hit all aspects we talked about quality control we talked about uh the the Playfield layout we talked about art and the artists that came forward with it so if you haven't listened to that one we give you recommend and you know it's 126 is our episode so good give that a listen but yeah spooky released two new games and honestly I I like the looks of the layout I think this is probably their best shooting layout they've made so far yeah the layout looks very um it's a it's a call back to a 90s layout you know 90s B Williams layout and so if that's what your thing is I would give it a flip I I'm always concerned about small companies and reliability because I am not a I'm not a mechanic I I don't have the kind of time to work on my games and so that's my only concern however uh it looks good it looks fun and I give it an optimistic review without having played it yet remember we're Win Schilling Scott you've got you got to pump these numbers up so we can got a check from spooky come on now yeah all right let's go to um let's go to the neutral person here uh Tom you you don't shill we know that Tom is pure um I have no spons ships Tom throw theme out the window throw theme out the window you're looking at the the shots layout what were your thoughts on on um toys Mach all that but throw theme out what are your thoughts throwing theme out I thought the shots and Mach look very interesting like I I liked them I I like I like what was presented um three ramps uh four four ramps four ramps well I guess I should look at the stuff before I talk four isn't it four ramps Four Horsemen how many ramps do you think it is Joel I thought it was four I know there's four wireforms four flippers I I will be the voice of reason it's four go ahead Tom we're in trouble sorry sorry spooky thank you referee I I have a lot going on in my life right now sorry uh so so many women so many so little time uh no uh yeah I I like how they Incorporated some things like the uh the drop targets the subway behind it uh the scoop behind the drop targets uh uh what I didn't like was like the shot goes like right into it from what I saw uh from the stream so I thought that was kind of weird uh but other than that the layout looks interesting I I I got to play it though to really get a feel for it I did not buy one Joel because I know you're gonna ask me no I I um no my I will agree with a lot of that I would say what um you know when we saw Halloween and you see the elevators it's like okay what's that going to be about you know like you see that like what's how's that going to feel or you see spooky you see that huge upper play field you're like right okay that could be same with the bookcase kind of flipper it's like that could be really cool or it could suck like you know there was these big question marks watching this reveal I didn't have that it's like okay I there's no Mech here that I'm that I see concerning it's more of a I'm excited to give this a shot Tom has another thought I can see it let's do a comparison let's compare this layout to Venom what are your thoughts uh there's more there's a lot more I mean well Travis needs needs to sell Venoms so Travis you go first what you compare the two sorry remember I don't have any you want me to compare the two so I I will say this if I was looking like just to answer how Tom got to answer if I was looking at this as a Whitewood I would be excited to flip it and I think that's why I told you guys too like this is a dynamic layout that looks interesting like it looks so much better than what they put out before because you see it's almost like you took Twilight Zone you took Shadow you took a little bit of elwin and you just put it all together you know you definitely see elements of all three of those games in this so it's just I I think it just further shows that these are just the more interesting layouts but at the same time we do have to accept that when you get more mechs and you make things a little bit more intricate it does cause issues potentially in the future so that'll be interesting to see how the games hold up especially on location or anywhere else but I I like where this is going it looks interesting and I'll I'll say straight up this this Playfield and this design looks way more interesting than what Venom is and that's just because to me when I look at this Playfield I don't think the game's going to play easy at all like I'm excited as somebody that wants a challenge I'm excited to play the game for that reason with Venom you you know you get a fan layout fan layouts are not difficult to play they're just they're just not they're very very casual friendly you get the it's very much flow-based I mean we all that's a overused term in pinball at this point but the shots are just easy it's where you expect them to be so something like this that's a little bit more Dynamic that you got the left ramp closer you got a two right ramps that are you know a little bit further back you got shots in the back you have a loop up top yeah you know and that's not going to be easy just to do all the time I mean sure in promo videos and stuff like that you see it going over and over again but a lot of that depends depends on the player it depends on the setup it depends on a lot of things so yeah when I see this I don't see an easy playing pen and I think that's you can kind of tell with the code too with the way it was I was kind of lost on the rules like it's like they went fairly deep but you could tell that they had ball saves in very certain areas out of the scoop out of the cap ball and out of the door those three things so they've somehow acknowledged that hey the ball could become chaotic and drain they don't want you to end up you know losing your ball quickly either so I don't know I'm interested to see it it's almost like I wonder if I so I told you guys before like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre it doesn't do anything for me for a theme Looney Tunes I think that's a much better theme to go and it's interesting how spooky either a horror theme or they're carto like there's no in between anymore that's what they are at this point and it's clear that I don't know I think the cartoon way to go it's just much better overall in my opinion like I get why they do the horror thing they got to stick with spooky but I I don't know it's just niching down so much it can still be done well but I'm also curious how this type of layout under Looney Tunes like how are families going to adjust to that because I don't think Little Billy is not getting on this pin and ripping shots it's just it's not going to happen no there's no there's no way I guarantee this is probably their most difficult playing pin since TNA like I look at this I think it'll be more difficult than Even Rick and Morty because I mean the game's designed for you to go horizontal a lot yeah I mean and that's what happens if you go horizontal you're out of control yep difficult to hit few small thoughts I had was you know when you have a when you have a layout when you have a theme like like Looney Tune you would want it to be kid-friendly and that's turtles turtles got ripped to shreds for that that it's like you you took a kid's theme and you made a brutal pin you made The Walking Dead yeah yeah yeah so that's fine but I think it was um it was one of us that interviewed Keith and Keith was talking about his frustration with safe shots his frustration that there's this need for all games have to be coded for this crazy depth so if a game's crazy deep then then the then the layout has to be safe enough for you to be able to experience that depth if you make you make a brutal pin people are pissed and so a lot of that involves uh shots that return to the flippers and in some sort of safe Manner and um that's the one thing that stood out to me on this game is there's four flippers but all every ramp feeds a flipper so as long as you hit a ramp it's a safe shot you are feeding a flipper in some a safe return safe return okay most ramps really are safe returns though I mean how many ramps do you know that puts that you you got to see Joel play he'll bust that myth really fast so one is this game right here behind me Elon johnon John that that left ramp that return does not feed the left flipper it just the the wire form just stops halfway and the ball just rolls towards the the left like a high speeded returnly so it's you know to me it's like I like it I like it because it's it's it's somewhat safe Star Wars episode one too jeez I was not expecting that is uncommon for sure but um but no this is that I I like the feedback here because I think you know good on them for removing the upper play field um and and actually having a game that looks I'm not saying it in insulting way but it's clearly a game that people want to shoot there's a lot of shots here seeing how it flows together watching bug stream it you know he was able to combo a lot of different random shots and even you know the fact that the under the- flipper shot feeds an orbit that then feeds another upper flipper and you know the last game that really kind of had this type of flow was like Foo Fighters you know Foo Fighters the way that that really comboed together in different shots and people ate it up so I think there's a chance that this layout will be very well received from spooky um but now it comes down to the code and the code what's really interesting there is completely different completely different code teams completely different code packages so you know if if uh Texas pinball um well Texas pinb Texas Chainsaw Massacre ends up being too like grotesque for you right well is the is The Spook like I wonder if the spooky code will be familyfriendly if it'll be a lot more approachable a lot more you know easy to get into modes or achieve whatever family friendly mode on a Texas Chainsaw Massacre is there an adult yeah can I turn off adult content it's just a black screen yeah and just has screen screen credits get over the game and the GI just goes Pure White there's no more red and it's I don't know I don't know Josh you've been what are your thoughts I think you guys are all spoton I don't know it just I don't know it it's I agree that like we're we're just doing spooky and and cartoon themes over and over but really that's kind of their Niche and no one else is going for it so I mean if that's they should by the way they should be going for that like stop stop just doing Dad Dad Rock pins like you can do stuff like this but the reality is the reality is too what's Tom going to buy I don't spooky is one of the consistent top players in the industry rather even if you're looking at their numbers and they're not as high as what you think other manufacturers are I mean they're more consistently I mean the Scooby-Doo came out this time last year I mean I I don't CJ cgc is not releasing a game once a year and American having aough time I mean you got to give them props to be consistent within their their threshold of what they're doing too so okay watching the layout by the way I just have a I I have it on Loop playing behind me I I'm going to say it and I think that you will agree with me if you look at the way the Dynamics work it actually really reminds me of Simpsons Simpsons pinball party like the the shot locations are very similar and Simpsons isn't an easy game it's super deep but it's still consistently one of the games that everybody who comes over to my house they always start it so that that seems to bode really well and they seem to have fun doing it the shots are more challenging but it doesn't seem to be as much of a drain monster as some other ones that could be it do you think some of it is theme also because they see Simpsons yeah like if you get a non- pinball person they see it like they can identify 100% I've always said theme is King like that's weren't you saying that uh hey there's been an uptaken interest in lead Zeppelin and we know it's not the layout th those go like hot cakes it's not the layout when Stern did the close out and I saw everybody else closing out I was like oh this is going to be a mistake and yeah they're just they're selling like crazy for Christmas and there no more is going to be produced but it's like anything else somebody discovers pinball yeah it's the first time that they've seen the themes it's not like they've seen it for three or four years so so if you're a big fan of Monopoly there is a game for you yep yep but that that's why I do Wonder though like what this layout would have been under different circumstances away from the themes that they're using you know what I mean because they've been using Warner Brothers themes right it seems like that they're going down that path so what's the major cartoon that's associated with Warner Brothers that was all part of our childhood you guys gotta think a little bit deep but I think this would be there you go the Animated Series say Johnny Bravo okay this Cartoon Network Batman the Animated Series imag that would be awesome awes imagine if Looney Tunes was that instead yeah they would have sold 2,000 plus of those easily like I don't know if that theme's easy to get I have no idea how it works but that to me that's the cartoon that's staring everybody straight in the face that everybody identifies with that everybody knows the characters already that's still relevant today do you think it's still we're getting superhero fatigue though I mean look at Venom or do we is Venom just like its own Venom Venom's a SE list I mean Batman's up here Venom is somewhere you talk superheroes in general it's like you're basically like Batman Spider-Man Superman like they're all who right there at the top and I know Travis's view on they need somebody needs to make a new Spider-Man like the Multiverse AB Multiverse oh that that would have been so good agree but to me people have asked me that I mean anybody any content creator it's what would be your dream theme and the answer was Turtles but now that Turtles has happened bam in the Animated Series Batman the Animated Series right there at the top Tom's got his Rush Tom could Tom Tom could stop with pinball he's good Scott you got rush you guys you guys are good you know check the box I got rush and Iron Maiden like the two bands of my childhood yeah you're to go Travis's dream what's your dream team like dirt I mean I pretty much got them all I I think what's intriguing okay but be honest Barbara Stan yes no yentel the pin is that if it's the South Park version I'm all in South Park that's right that makes sense make a Shan no it's a good point it's a really good um it's a really good point and spooky spook's done a really good job with licensing so I mean there's they know that they're not making they're not making um original themes they they know day one it's going to be the it's going to be the the license that that helps sell their pins and and honestly I think um I haven't heard specifics or whatnot I would be very curious there's 888 uh Texas Chainsaw Massac and 888 L Looney Tunes if I had a guess I bet it's like two to one like Looney Tunes to Texas if not even more than that that would be my guess they said it was pretty clo when we talked to him and I know this is a few days ago it said that I think Looney Tunes just barely was ahead do I remember that correctly Josh yeah yep two days ago when we recorded yep yeah and so they actually I okay I think they nailed being able to say hey we got the the ultra horror theme for our hardcore fans but we also have this thing and really Bugs Bunny is a great theme and maybe it's a little older than your generation because you guys grew up on something else but my generation that is like when you're 50 you know you're pushing that 50y old category Bugs Bunny was King they were by far the best cartoons out there for my generation unless you get into like the 80s with with like Thundercats and GI Joe and whatever um I would say my last thought at least on spooky is I I think it's smart that they they do the double Playfield um you know from a part standpoint and everything like that the problem is in my opinion it's always somewhat obvious which game they prioritized uh so in this instance it's clear they designed everything for Texas Chainsaw Massacre and and the big standout for me was the meat grinder the meat grinder isn't is a brilliant Mech for Texas Chainsaw Massacre but then to just kind of reshell it and put it as a rocket ship the way that screw is still built into the rocket ship it like it bothers me it probably shouldn't grind rocket sh Joel I'm like that's not and then people talk about Taz like tads needs to be faster than that so could they have splurged and got a different motor you know like do the or buy the fast motor and then put a restrictor on it in some way for you know like to me I get it I get it that those are probably business decisions that I can't make but that's my only thing that bothers me I think they made a brilliant move to to change the code and to change the inserts like they are making them feel more individual pins but I still feel um they did a good job with the girl popping out of the fridge obviously I'm glad it's not like Wy coyote popping out of a box they completely change that Mac well Josh and Scott can correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they say on your guys podcast that they pretty much design these side by side at least that's what they're saying right that's what they said so then it's so we got to go well Joel here's the point though we got to go off what they say right but here's a unique thing still though it's you look at it so let's say that that they did that side by side right guys and you look at it it feels like Texas Chainsaw Massacre is very much Allin on theme assets everything you don't get that same feeling looking at the Playfield for Looney Tunes like I think that's and I agree with you Joel on that that's why it feels like things or decisions were made based off what is Texas Chainsaw Massacre well it's it's clearly that's the one they're more passionate about like we've we've talked about this before that pinball designers you know Stern has turned down themes because they don't have a designer that's in love with it and it's clear like like bug has made it very very apparent what he is in love with and it's hor te so that's the unique thing about pinball there's a lot of people that make things and code things according to what they like and maybe not necessarily what the end consumer likes it's kind of it's Unique like that but I get it it's hard to do a project if you're not Allin because it's it obviously takes takes up a lot of your time but I would be very interested to see what would happen if stuff was done with the end consumer in mind to get the most Mass appe pill to it because I don't I don't know if pinball does that well enough yet I'm not sure I mean each individual would have to answer for themselves why they code a game the way that they do why do they design a game the way that they do why do they come up with the ideas that they have you know because it's something like what I think would be fun for me I don't know if that would be fun for the endc consumer so it's the same way like like this layout because I think it's going to be challenging for me but just like I alluded to what the hell is Little Billy going to do with Looney Tunes when he's getting drained left and right and even Joel could kick the dog crap out of him like what's Little Billy has no chance I got him yeah Little Billy is not going to like Looney Tunes anymore you got to put rubber bands on the Alle yeah so I mean that's the thing I think a lot of times too you got to consider your in consumer and your target audience also in in this equation before you go too far deep and that's not talking about like what Spooky's done like I like what they've done but I think that's just pinball in general right across the board like how are you how are you coding the games why are you putting the rules in that you are like not everybody's going to see wizard modes not everybody's going to understand multipliers you know the twox the 4X times the 16x you know it's just yeah it's a unique thing I think it's a unique problem for pinball to have that it's it's difficult to solve right to appeal to the masses compared to us Knuckleheads that do want to dive deep like how do you find that happy medium uh if there was an easy answer to that all the games would have it but it's not that is something that I that's how I evaluate a lot of my you know people give me crap because I say friends and family but like friends and family that that really matters to me that if a game if you step up to the game and it's not easily you know clear of some objective it's just you're trying to get these people to fall in love with pinball and if they can't like they can't fall in love with a machine or can't experience a machine they just they tune out and and uh you know hey we don't say anything bad we don't say anything bad about pinball machines and we only shill but venom venom was a game that I couldn't I there was nothing when I had the game here I enjoyed the game my brother enjoyed the game every other person that stepped up to that game there wasn't anything obvious for me to show them that was gonna hook them in in 30 seconds or less and and you know the three games behind me right now Godzilla not a problem you got that big old building the Cactus Canyon you got Bart just shoot the guy in the head you know like watch his hat go up and even even Elton John there's a little there's a little um alligator on that game and crocodile and I was not expecting my three and fiveyear olds to freaking love that alligator the crocodile it get it goes back to visual you put something up the middle right or less than 45° angles visually that's an indicator to somebody that you you got to go that way because we are trained through anything that we do straight ahead right movies Straight Ahead driving straight ahead podcasting straight ahead you know that's that's the way we're trained so you put something there yeah Scott's gonna look to the side but yeah that's why you put something up the middle right it it makes so much sense think about like I tell you guys this all the time soccer it's the easiest shot straight up like up the middle is the easiest shot the hardest ones are the you know you you have to wait on the flipper it takes a little more challenging so yeah phone just fell down so we're looking at his keyboard here there he is hey elato hey we got our first elato no drop I don't know why my camera's freaking out we're at 51 minutes we're at 51 minutes and Travis's camera is still going Josh is the new Elgato I'm the new Elgato El Dro more so here's like we can compare this though with Texas chainsaw and Looney Tunes right so let's say all of our wives want to play a game right like how many of them are going to choose Texas Chainsaw Massacre I don't yeah my wife yeah I guarantee you if that's that one leg in my house my wife would just go ballistic I I've already told Zach that um obviously I'm happy to stream whatever but I said honestly if Texas Chainsaw Massacre is shows up at the house and I have to stream it I'll I'll probably have to put the head down it's in thear and put a blanket over it at anytime the kid like that's crazy and I mean I think I was going to ask this Sur but between the two themes I'm assuming if spooky reached out to all five of us and they're like we want to give you a game what do you want I'm pretty sure five for five we're all picking Looney Tunes yeah it's just that's where we're at but 100% I don't want to raise any future serial killers or anything like that you know so to their credit though the up the- middle shot I mean it's straight up the shadow sanctum lock is what they did and that's an awesome awesome Mech awesome lock so that magnets people love magnets so as long as that as long as you can get into that door and experience that in like one or two hits yeah they're they're that's a good move and then the fact that if hopefully locking a ball in the meat grinder locking a ball in the rocket ship hopefully that only takes one maybe two shots to the rocket before the first one happens that would be smart just just give us a little taste of the mechs quickly um it seemed like they took forever on bugs stream when he show when he showed it off it seemed like it was a lot of hopefully chopping yeah hopefully they can find a balance there because um somebody said it was actually I think it was Ryan McQuaid who now works at uh the Sonic guy who works at American pinball he said I I what pisses me off is when people hide code behind mechs or they hide or maybe it's the other way they hide mechs behind code because when you step up step up to a game the thing you notice are the mechs so it's how do I get to the upper Playfield and if somebody if to get to the upper Playfield is six shots there's a lot of people that are never going to experience that upper Playfield you know well your Mech needs to be your quote unquote Bozo area what that means is anybody's going to go after if you don't know anything else you're going to go after okay this is Lord of the Rings ball Rog the ball Rog has to come out almost every game because otherwise you're just looking as like why is that even in the game sure well that's what's funny too like going back to Keith Len like his first game was Iron Maiden yeah it's up the middle like you're hitting the target but like going onto Jurassic Park like he wasn't ever going to put the dinosaur in there and then and Gary Gary walkom is like no you need to put something like that in there you need the dinosaur yeah you need the dinosaur the moving dinosaur like yep and so Gary's Gary's Gary's thing has always been there's got to be some kind of Mech there's got to be something that draws to you it has to be easily accessible by code I don't care if it gets buried in code but like the first three shots or whatever have to be able to activate the cool thing yeah within the first 30 seconds to a minute and I totally understand how um how challenging that has to be for a designer because you know when I look at Venom it's I I think what they did is actually really really cool and the mechs that they have in the premium and Le to change the entire layout of the Playfield is really really cool but unfortunately the amount of coils that are needed and the amount of Mech that's needed to do that they really don't have I mean doppelgangers the closest thing but they really don't have that Bozo standout Mech and It suffers because of that and so it's like if people can look past that the G the game is there but for the Casual people that are just going to step up they missed it and if we look at St you know like Foo Fighters it has the the the overlord area uh which is a easy easily achievable U shot for anybody um but I mean there's there's a lot of other game like um Leed Zeppelin didn't really have anything to grab you even even you know like Avengers Pro didn't really have anything the Captain Marvel shot visually looks really cool but that's a premium and that's where but that's that's that's my point and IM imagine if you design a Playfield and it was a high level Playfield and it was all Subways yeah yeah it's like a bingo game right yep yeah yeah and it's like yes it would take it would take skill to be able to hit the right holes and to actually do it but visual like pinball is a visual physical sensory interaction so everything goes into it but we all know that the visual aspect of the ball doing something cool takes precedence over almost everything except for theme yeah Tom you're good at hitting the right holes what um what are your thoughts on uh um meanwhile on what we're talking about on just just layouts with Max and trying if you wrap it back to Spooky I mean stuff to draw anybody they step up to this game what are they GNA like you guys have been talking about I mean Venom just doesn't do it and spooky kind of I I don't want to say hit a home run but they they hit a triple at least I mean if I'm comparing the two games and they're out at the same time yeah there there's no question I would pick Looney Tunes over vom yeah well yeah you definitely want to have a game that that dangles theay yeah that shows you I mean there's definitely been games that I've stepped up to put a quarter in or whatever go go to Dollar put it go to play and then it's like crap I never like big Labowski you know it took me two or three games to experience the bowling alley and but that but that's you know under it's like what do I have to do how do I qualify that like that's what I need that's what that's what games need to draw you in um so I think spooky they I I'm excited for this layout I'm excited for what they put in the game uh we've seen gameplay on um Texas chainsa massacre it is brutal and disgusting and re and crazy but they they they crushed it they crushed the theme um and we'll just have to I don't know I know they I I think people will enjoy it if if that's a that's a dream theme for you I think they've done a really good job ton of assets ton of everything Looney Tunes were still kind of a wait and see on that a big part of that is Eric P pry primy pry he's the guy he Rick and Morty's code he is currently doing labyrinths code AS somebody who's played a lot of Labyrinth I really really enjoyed the code on that game so if and then Rick and Morty Rick and Morty's a brutal game he's doing the whole code on labr I think so or leading it or something but it's have Phil Grimaldi Phil Grimaldi is doing was rules like I thought I don't think Phil's coding the game but RI But Eric is the guy coding the game so I'm just saying if um I really enjoyed Rick and Morty even though it was brutal I've really enjoyed Labyrinth so I have faith that I will personally probably really enjoy Looney Tunes depending on what type of if if Eric continues to do what he does but that's definitely a wait and seee um wait and see situation so yeah I don't know I would say uh yeah if you haven't heard the loser kid podcast I haven't had a chance to listen to it it came out yesterday um definitely give that a shot but any other thoughts on spooky anybody no no let's move on to Industry My Oh My My one last thought was they powder coated the ramps yeah and I'm very curious to see powder and clear coated okay so so they actually did bring that up they said powder and clear coated and they even said in their testing they haven't had any issues with that and they they did push their support they said if there is if there are issues we'll send you out a new ramp okay good that they did listen and address that concern yep wonderful okay any anybody ever see problems with clear Co before never I'm just saying I'm just saying you guys at least at least you guys are like it's a fix it's at least they're aware of the criticism and at least they know they have a plan if it if it fails so well here's we we Tom Tom we only shill okay we only shill we're only positive I will say I will say I will say as probably the only spooky owner here in the building TNA there baby yeah whatever I got I got a game with actual ramps on it okay so um Rick and Morty like the Playfield is immaculate the clear code is immaculate I mean it's probably the best clear code in the industry by far yeah I'm unfortunately I have one so hopefully that translates over to the ramps yes they uh so the TNA I have is an early earlyish run and I actually have clear coat issues but they've since solved that so clear C there's no such thing as a clear Cod issue just saying that Joel not anymore but I will say as as podcast right we we only shill we speak positive but if there is a problem it's our responsibility to hold the industry accountable okay because our voice matters that's that's how it work so we move the needle yes okay we speaking of yeah moving the needle markets Market we wanted to just kind of do and maybe maybe before we get into the Sales spot I I think an interesting question we can go around the circle here um because we have about a half hour Tom has a a shoot he's got to go to his modeling phot yeah just it's taking off you're you're aren't you you're going to visit your son right in college I'm gonna go pick him up yeah being a good dad say out a Neil um Dad feed me dinner um yeah so my question here is 2023 what was something within pinball that was uh like the biggest surprise to you if that if that makes sense um kind of quick thought um oh I got something I would say if I I'll go ahead and go first honestly yeah go ahead gez Tom settle down yeah sorry sorry to interrupt tomra is my biggest surprise um how just go ahead go ahead Tom no go ahead Joel I was going say I'll have something better to say my biggest surprise honestly is Elton John Elton John I it's a tie between Elton John and Labyrinth but Elton John was a was a game that I this I'm just being a shill but no I um that game what I maybe my biggest surprise is what I underestimate is how um how incredible an art package can just draw you into a game this was a theme I did not care about did not care about at all and the moment I saw this game at Expo it was like holy crap like I it just sucked you in visually of like I want to experience this game and just the whole experience of the art package the audio the light show it's just that game I've been playing the heck out of that game and it's and it's not the layout's fun the rules are very approachable but there is I I just think franchi and jjp crushed it with just the whole audio and Vis Vis V video not video visual audio and visual experience to just suck you in so I don't know that was the biggest surprise like genuine I had very low expectations and actually really sucked into that game so let me shill it sell it um I need my commissions check go by nelton John I will if if this game is in your game room it will stand out everybody that's seen it in person will agree that game lit like legitimately stands out I I would take it by the way like it's it's on my short list Joe yeah commission check I'm ready it's on my short list of games that I am interested at at and I've said at a different price point but it it would be it would be a long-term keeper for me it is it is incredibly accessible um honestly the code most jjp games you fall into a multiball or the code is so complex you can't understand it this is there's kind of three main multiballs that you can pursue at any time there's songs going on in the background if you care about points you can focus on on wardrobe items otherwise you you're really not getting bogged down by a lot of other stuff it's just kind of a pure do these things and you're gonna see more of the game there's no real modes there's it's just songs and I don't know just play that's what I like about it is I I'm not overthinking it you just play um so it's a good if people are all in on jjp this game will definitely feels different than the other jjps in your collection but in a good way it's it's very good so that's my surprise Tom Tom is ready he's locked and loaded ready for that was a huge surprise thanks Tom geez um biggest surprise of 2023 Pulp Fiction was announced and shown at Texas pinball festiv mhm where are they that's that's a surprise that's the big surprise yeah that's the well they were supposed to be released in in quarter three so you tell me we I think we all knew though we all said when they threw out October I think all of us were like ha you know okay yeah but I'm I don't want to take away your surprise Tom if you're if this this um this really I get it I get it uh Josh Sharpe right that's who you not Josh so you're you're not surprised that they don't have PP fictions out yet no because cgc is involved they're still running tacus Canyon I would be more surprised if they had it out before tpf of 2024 yes apparently they're they're I think we have heard they are like building assemblies but I don't I don't necessarily know maybe they're waiting to start sh I don't know I don't know equal a pinball machine knows there's more to pinball than just assemblies yeah well this is the same company that announced like in 2022 that they were coming out with Cactus Canyon and then at the same time it's like by the way we're going to do more Medieval Madness January 2023 and crickets like yep we're yep yep yep so okay I got a better surprise oh surprise okay let's go round two round two Tom with the double alen Ripley Edition okay oh yeah okay that's a good one I even got Travis's attention on that I think that's uh that's a good move by pinball brothers and I think it's a great move they're going to sell more games for everybody but the Distributors that had the original L's in stock they're they are really stuck unless unless they find a way of retro arting that or I don't even know how to say that you can buy all the addons I mean you can still put the code on your old game you can put the code on the old game as long as pinb Brothers game that's the key yeah you can you can buy all the add-ons you can buy all the art you can buy all the add-ons but it unless pinball Brothers just gifts those to the Distributors and be like here give these I I just don't it sucks that they have games that are technically more expensive than the Ripley Edition that have less in them like what do you do what do you do with that so welcome to the Hobby in 2023 everybody solid surprise I think Travis is writing they're writing something down I'm just taking notes off the podcast it's for my Memoir that's coming out soon oh God all four pages it'll be great Travis the man the myth the legend how to podcast with Keith elwin by Travis I can't wait yeah the cover will be blank El got no signal or like insert cover art is what it'll say it's the double zero with Travis staring at you ofis m all every page in the book would be numbered d0 all right well we'll get out of triple drain uh Scott what was your biggest surprise of okay I have two biggest surprises um so I'm gonna cheat a little bit um my one of my biggest surprises was that the elwind designed Bond 60 um wasn't a better game and and I'll I'll put it as I think it's a solid game it's it's a solid game it is definitely a vanity piece that you're paying twice to three times what the game really warrants I played it I thought it was a lot of fun but when I look at the price tag and say I can have two or three games for the price of this I'm not sure that this is for me so that was my biggest surprise given obvious limitations for having a I think the theme should have just been the classic just because it felt it was a 1960s Vibe on the game it also felt a little bit uh retrofitted for yeah they have the wheels in it but it's still I think the I would have got the same pop by not even having the wheels and just having a screen with the fake Wheels like Beatles does so that was a big surprise to me I that was I anticipated that having a longer lasting effect um the second thing that surprised me we had what was it five five plus games that were announced right around tpf oh yeah and the yeah Foo Fighters came out of the gate kind of hot but then cooled down to I would say what I would consider an average game that's not an insult that's just an average game so of those five games Foo Fighters was the most successful which turned out to be more of an average release so there doesn't seem to be a monster release that came out this year that was obviously this is the game that you need to have long term this feels very much like a like an in between year where a lot of stuff happened but nothing that's going to make it into my collection for long term interesting yeah no I know people talked about 2021 that way that it was just kind of a there was no standout and then 20 was it 2022 no it was the other way around 2021 was Godzilla it was just obvious and then 2022 was kind of a huh you know who's and I I'm in that I see what you're saying because honestly this year the um you know twiy like pin of the year I don't know I genuinely don't know there's no um it'll probably be Foo Fighters just because Stern's the biggest there's probably the most out there it's the game most people have played but I get it I I yeah I see what yeah those are solid um solid surprises yeah Josh what's surprised you Scott stole mine with Texas pinball festival and the releases you jerk sorry no I actually did have another uh I think the biggest surprise was seeing uh barrels of fun come out of left field with Labyrinth and the response to it and the professionalism around that game for a first release it's outside of probably Wizard of Oz which I wasn't in the hobby when that released so I can't really attest to that but this has got to be the best like first game ever shown by a pinball company and I've seen handful of pinball companies start up in the last decade well it's almost like a two-part thing it's it's barrels of fun is a really big surprise the team that's there the people that are involved the way they've handled themselves the communication being you know outside things get involved with you know tested that YouTube video gazillion views like um David Van Es being super responsive on pinside it's just like that company coming out of nowhere nobody knew it was coming and then they've been they've done everything right and then the second part of that is Labyrinth like Labyrinth is actually for a first game is really really good The layout's Good The Art Is Awesome they got good toys the build quality is I mean I've had one here I did not lift the Playfield one time that I had it here and that game was a show game that was a game that already had hundreds and hundreds of plays from Chicago pinball Festival then it lift a Playfield one time so there's yes that that's a very I will agree with that um you can send your check to Joel at yeah oh David knows I mean he's already sent me I mean I streamed his game you know three times so I've that's at least you know so much partial ownership the company now right yeah I I passed the stock I just want stock I just went stock in the company okay but little known fact is that Joel's actually one of the heads of the trolls on the topper yep yep yep makes sense this true all right no that's good that's a good that's a solid surprise um all right Travis surprises all right I got a surprise that I think you guys will all agree with kind of is a big surprise but then kind of not when you really think about it um I would say the amount of time times that Stern keeps re-releasing games including games that are last call yeah like that's surprising such as like stranger things wasn't last call but there wasn't many that was sold back in like late 2019 early 2020 I think there was less than like 600 700 premiums that even went out now they're all coming back um I think Guardians of the Galaxy the last call came out for that for over a year ago and then they had a second last call for it and then in August they said that Iron Maiden was last call and now there's actually a build date in 2024 for it so that's not last call and then on top of that you know coming out with these anniversary editions with elvar with Jurassic Park almost like they're killing the elite Market that's that's that's surprising like they've done they've done different additions of course you know I mean there was a 40th for Alvira but I think it's just surprising seeing all that come all at once it feels like like it's happening an avalanche in the past six months it feels like more than the first two quarters of the year it feels like it's all been on the back end of 2023 and it's kind of I don't I don't know if it's throwing the market into total chaos just yet but that's interesting and then the bigger surprise too with that is closing out games I was very surprised by that was not expecting that at all you're saying games selling those Turtles like waving yeah waving MSR Rush was Rush shocked me because Rush shocked me that was still a okay I understand the theme is for Tom and me and probably about 50 other dudes um but got it's more than that years so that's like no it did win speaking of tppy it did win game of the year last year and it it was a very solid effort and the code was great the layout was was still good it was still it was challenging but it was good but it really shocked me that they man I don't know who ran more the original stranger things run or Rush run oh because it it would have to be rush I would think yeah however I don't feel and it was a better recepted game and considering that it's not like it came dead on a rival it was very the reception was uh out of proportion with the theme and so I I was I was pleasantly surprised that it was a great game and a theme for me but they didn't keep running it and that that surprised me it kept getting relegated behind um elwin's next rebuild yeah yeah no supply and demand I guess well absolutely I think what's interesting I mean Travis you're saying the fact that you know some of these games are still making them I I think part of that though is you know a lot of the games that are currently available are all in stock like so many Distributors have so many games in stock so it's surprising that it's like there's already a good list of options but guess what Stern's gonna make old games again too so let's add to those options and that's going to be tough from a distributor standpoint because now you have we've talked about Dynamic pricing before how there isn't any so it's like you've got just this Banger of a pin like a Godzilla or or um Jurassic Park and that's having to go up against um whether it's Rush Turtles orom Venom you know like how do you or I remember when they announced Venom there were still L's there still are Lees in uh in Distributors hands so Distributors are holding on to these Venom still a lot of L yes in distrib I stared at them just the other day there's a lot yeah are you you trying to intimidate them you know get out of here no I'm trying to convince people they need to start buying it cuz Daddy needs a new car so please you said I remember it came out that it was like the day that Jurassic Park 30th edition came out you're like what like that game is beloved yep and it's an Le a second version of an Le all the bells and whistles all the prettiness and it's the same exact price as a Venom Le that's sitting here and El I told you guys immediately Venom is DOA like that's it that's that's it and we've had that before like I've I've shown people penss in our showroom and if people that are brand new to pinball and they look at Godzilla and they're like why is this so much different than the other ones like they can tell you know and people people aren't dumb with their with their eyes like we talk about they can tell what looks interesting to them you know so people aren't done with their eyes but but what well I'm saying yeah I know I know yeah especially if they look at Tom they're not done with their eyes they're doing the right thing look at Tom oh boy but yeah that's that's my bigest surpr it's the constant releases and combined with the close out like I was shocked that Star Wars the pen yeah got a close out price because it's Star Wars still it's still selling actually oh my God yeah like we yeah I I mean I can't get into specifics so I'll just say from my end I'm very surprised that a lot of the the only one I'm not surprised of is Ninja Turtles like when I see that I'm like okay that makes sense for a rock though like so I will say that I what I have enjoyed is the fact that the price of turtles has come down I've actually had people reach out to me that finally pulled the trigger on one and they like it they're like this game's hard I you understand it's hard but like the code is good like it is a fun game it is a once you get in the house instead of going to going on to a bar and losing a dollar quickly and being like screw this game now it's in your house now it's time to dive in figure out the shots it's actually a very fun game so I I do think more people are experiencing it now that they're on like clearance um but Tom do you still have your turtles or you sell it yeah I still have yeah see there's it's a good game it's I don't know I I I'm glad it's being talked about or people are playing it now maybe even for the first time okay at least you're finding a bright side in the closeout pricing okay I do have a followup though yeah yeah considering we have had another year of sales in pinball and a year ago you were still having a hard time finding games um does it surprise you that now if you want a game it's available if you want a game at a discount it's probably available if like does that surprise you that in a year things turn so quickly and what does that say to the overall health of the industry um I Know Travis to talk about this long time Jo this is what he this is what he thinks about all day it's it's I think it comes down to how much do I want to say publicly give away all the song and so so that's why I just throw it out I mean this is obviously Travis's like day job like this is this is our hobby it's Travis's day job too but you can we can all have a a gut feel about how the market has changed in the last year and and I we can talk freely about it but I'll I'll take I'll take the first lead on this it surprises me at how quickly it changed it didn't uh it seemed like over about six months we went from gotta get a game got to get a game to you know what hold you can wait and maybe if you hold off you can get it so this makes me concerned about the overall state of the industry because if if buyers who used to be historically have been Le and and premium buyers which I would argue that Tom and I have been in that category Tom actually see I see a lot of L's behind him that got yeah if if we man humble brag um if if I have started shrinking back and saying you know what I used to be an Le I'm probably more of a premium buyer and maybe I'm a premium used buyer now you are eroding the people who are willing to buy a game this is the car market right you're you're eroding the people who are willing to buy a car take the hit because that's how the industry works you shouldn't be able to sell um Ed things for more than new in boox things because that tells me a margin is left on the table um but if you if there is a segment of the population who are eroding and I know I'm a small segment but is that enough to concern the industry because it is a supply and demand market and if the Supply is way outstripping what demand is then does that have a ripple effect back toward manufacturers back toward their ability to they built these huge manufacturing facilities and do they have to pump the brakes on what their facilities are because they're putting out too much they still have overhead they still have standard St they still have to pay the electrical bill every every month you still have to pay the rent every month and what does that do for the next one two years of the market because I'm concerned I'm concerned that we are going to see some companies and probably some dealerships that are going to be in crisis and are not going to be able to meet their overhead and may have to close doors I would say that that's pretty much spoton I mean I've been telling you guys I know in our triple Jin chat I've been saying it since what summer of 2022 can it and that justes from looking at the analytics what people are searching see what the consumer habits are you could see it coming at some point because obviously raw materials and everything catches up I think what's going on with pinball is that there is something that's foundationally broken on the the for the end consumer like it's it's obvious it's there and there's a lot of variables that are going into that that's both on the m ufacturers it's on the dealers and it's on consumers I think it's very much it's it's like a whole Vin diagram of everything happening at once and I think it's a cumulative thing it's not just like one single thing that why it's happening it had to build a lot over time and I think it it just goes back to like you're talking about Le Scott right and I know Tom you've discussed Le's too so it's kind of like I think what pinball has really kind of lost out on recently is that their core offer which always should be the Le in general to help push all of products I think they've kind of lost it with that they've kind of lost the narrative with that being their core their core offer such as understanding how to increase demand like it's not just supply and demand you have to know how to increase the demand for your product and that goes with just like why why is it valuable to somebody right you have to have a perceived value and when you look at it when it comes to Le you got three different types of people right you got the ones that are going to be all in on every Le you got those that are going to be on the fence about an Le you got those that are completely out right so number three doesn't even matter but how do you get number two back in how do you get people to stop filtering from number one to number two they were always buying every Le and now they're just on the fence that's what's happened so your core offer always has to come down to increasing demand and then controlling Supply that's what you have to do so I think obviously if we go back down to 500 I think things kind of ride it ship a little bit but we're very much dealing with an industry that is entirely built around price sensitivity it's all about finding the lowest possible price for a premium product find the free shipping find it tax free and you keep doing that for a premium product over and over and over again guess what happens when you have to hike up the price M you get push back and those people are out if they're buying a product if their whole entire value prop for a product is pricing you're going to lose long term that's just what's going to happen it's just like the pros and premiums they didn't even keep up with inflation from what the prices were in 2015 2016 and the industry has no idea that that even happened they still look at the premiums and they think it's too much it's actually premium should be closer to $10,000 God's honest truth Pros should be closer to $7,800 and people don't realize that that's where the material is at so it's like how do you come back from that and I don't know I don't know if it's possible because you have to sell out the L's right to make your pros and premiums even more desirable for people right the people that are on the fence about it that weren't going to get the Le anyways what happens psychologically if you see that those the Le sold out day one like it's a frenzy right everybody starts talking about that's and we're not seeing that right so it we have no way to extend out the lifetime of these products anymore without that we we sely need that I would I no that's all really well said what I um yeah what I will say is from a distributor standpoint or not a distributor from a from a manufacturer standpoint you obviously need to push the value of what you're doing um not once again to shill Bradlee Ching um Elton John what what I am seeing here is like this has everything it has rad Cals it has art blades it has a Topper it's all installed it's all there it's all ready to go so I understand $112,000 is a lot of money but at least I feel like it's there and that's something that when you barrels of fun did this really well for that game to be fully loaded speaker lights everything it's like okay I'm getting value or feel like I'm getting value spooky does it too so we've talked before it would be awesome if Stern stepped up the Le a little bit made it not only do less of them but also put more in it make it a little more something um but then the price goes up right yeah hopefully they can dance around I don't know but then Distributors what can a distributor do that's where it sucks when you're talking about trickling up you know previously Stern they were selling all their games to all the Distributors they didn't care all Distributors give me give me gim me go go go well now all of a sudden there is push back from Distributors like I can't I can't take it I cannot take anymore that's where we're at now so how do we help out the Distributors I see how Stern would do the clearance sales or allow there to be clearance sales to help Distributors I don't know that answer hopefully they can find out a way to appease but the reality is there's a ton of Distributors out there some of them this was a hobby this was a way that they could enjoy it make a little money on the side not so much anymore so unfortunately they might not they might not be around not only that if you take that into it yeah that's where you end up in a situation to where a lot of people are flipping games and it's not flipping games for above MSRP it's not like if you go on any Marketplace and you see the serial number blacked out or not available that's a game that's most likely getting flipped and I mean I know that kind of got out on some of the groups to where somebody was saying like Stern made them stop and stuff like that and yeah it's if somebody is reselling games over and over and over again it hurts the ecosystem of that area not only that it drives down pricing like crazy it's not healthy for an industry how crazy is it because you pointed this out to us the other day today what was it like a week or two ago some guy had openly admitted on a on comment section in Stern pinb Stern's Facebook on their Facebook saying he's like yeah I pretty much i' I resell and flip from Distributors and I had to cancel so many orders because I can't flip them now or something like that and it's like you have a guy admitting he's not he's breaking that up you know what I'm saying yeah I don't know yeah we've talked about that too when you see somebody post like oh I bought I bought this game for a friend and and now they don't want it and it's like here's the Box not opened you know crossed out like I get I mean that's that happens it's Distributors buying games reselling them at prices they shouldn't to somebody else so that they can legally resell because it's their game now however it's just it's just it is what it is so um but it's it's kind of I don't know I I would say as a pinball fan what can we do not talking to Travis this is a job but what can we do we can buy the games we want to buy we can buy the games we want to buy um it is interesting you know when I got into the hobby Turtles shortly after that came out and to me I was like why would you ever buy a new unbox game when you can get them cheaper used but the reality was a dream theme came out I wanted it and I wanted it as soon as possible so I actually splurged and bought it new in box and at the time I knew I could always resell it and and lose a little bit of money we're kind of back at that point unfortunately some games you're losing a lot more money than you want but the luckily you can trade stuff like I know Tom you just recently traded away your godfather you know stuff like that my godfather yep and it's crazy you got James Pond a game you had sold previously but like that game has come along so much bond has I got the premium version yeah actually I have two friends who they both that we have pretty big Collections and we're all within each other uh within a few miles of each other and both of them bought one of them bought Bon 60 didn't like like it sold it bought Bond Le didn't like it sold it for Foo Fighters then sold Foo Fighters to get the bondle back yeah yeah code man and and because the code has really come along and uh that does make it okay a reality check how much is a night out with your family your friends how how much is that typically okay when you when you factor in food travel all that kind of stuff I'm guessing you're probably looking at 50 to 100 bucks oh more than that fast food is like 75 now it's insane okay but maybe Soul if I'm just you know hanging out with my Budd what I'm bringing to the table okay maybe 50 you know once you and I'm talking like a a decent okay it takes my family 60 bucks if we even go through McDonald's drive-thru okay yeah and so for us to say well okay a night out with friends to a location we're looking at food if you're drinking you're looking at drink you're looking at uh all that kind of stuff you're looking at easily dropping 50 to 100 bucks and if you can't get into your mind hey if I buy a game and have it in my home and even take a $500 loss from what I paid for it down there that's still roughly five to 10 uh evenings out with a friend and if you get the same sort of level of enjoyment then that's that's actually money ahead in my bank account so I lost a lot more than 500 on Godfather I'm saying okay now now are you okay that was a Ferrari as we know okay so but how do you Tom how do you feel about that like you so you lost you lost a decent chunk of money on Godfather are you like there's a lot of other games where I'm way ahead Joel yeah so exactly so you're not like at least at this point in time but do you have any like ill will towards jjp or like reservation to buy another game like yeah maybe some I mean maybe a little bit I mean I don't I don't want to keep buying games and take a $4,000 loss yeah I think it I think it really comes down to how yeah no how quickly with the with the atmosphere just like we talked about when you train the majority of consumers to be price sensitive it's damn near impossible to have an expensive premium product last a long time in those conditions you know I I understand the games are going to you know you buy a new inbox game you're going to lose some value um like Scott was saying 500 1,000 bucks maybe even 1,500 but if you're talking like three to $4,000 that's that's a bigger deal that's a bigger deal that that's like a pretty damn good belly Williams game uh maybe a b title MH you know that's F4 right there yeah you know something exactly so you know you're talking about a whole pinball machine well you uh you know if you want to do the uh I can afford that loss yeah okay but four grand I don't know if everybody in pinball well Tom Tom's hit the nail on the head right here because think about it guys if we get back to what a core offer is for a product right to increase the demand for it so if you don't have an extreme amount a demand for a game that's already expensive what's going to happen to that price very quickly yep it's going to bottom out fast and if that keeps happening to people that are always in at the beginning and they start to get tension and friction and they're not wanting to keep losing that much money what are they going to do they're gonna stop buying new embx the whole thing comes to a screeching Hal yeah like you're saying Travis maybe the numbers of Lees need to be dramatically yeah you have to change something and a lot of it is too is who who are selling these games are you trying to sell just on Facebook a 12 to $5,000 product yeah like are you marketing it to as many people as possible that are searching you on Yahoo Google YouTube wherever you could you use Yahoo as a search yeah Okay Google yeah how about how about your AOL keyword what's that yeah okay so if you have if you okay here's just quick business 101 right right if you are not readily accessible on a Google search result in the top 10 when random guy girl hops in types in pinball sales or buy pinball machine if you're not top 10 then you have a very niche market and you are you are definitely in the moment pop This Small Potatoes category and if you are wholly relying on a single uh Avenue to Market or sell your product then you should be very concerned uh the okay a quick analogy right now there's been a lot of stories about Disney kicking out people who are thirdparty hosts so people want to go to Disney World they don't want to spend the $500 an hour that Disney charges to have one of their hosts take them around and so there have been these third- party hosts that have kind of in that gray Market the the blacked out serial number Market where I should have thought of that yeah where they get hired out and they go for like 150 bucks an hour or or something like that and it there's been a big news story lately that they have gone and they've tried to badge in their annual pass and they get you know blue circled which means hey there's something wrong and they basically flagged him for trespassing and kicked him out of the park wow yeah and and so this has been a this has been a big news story because a lot of people all of their eggs are in that basket that is all they do that Disney is their life and they want to just go and host and hey if they can make $1,000 $1,500 in a day go Gathering people around fine but once Disney looked at that and said yeah we're not letting you do that anymore what are they going to do they can't just say hey we're going to do the same thing for Nots Berry Farm for for Six Flags you know it's just not going to happen so if this is my long way of saying if the only way you're selling a premium product is on Facebook you should be very concerned about your business yeah I was um that's a really good point I that's crazy about Disney 2 I that's crazy but um just because all I'm talking about is Elton John um uh what I think is interesting is this game's not selling right now but is this is it because people think jjp you buy it you're going to immediately the moment you buy a jjp game you're out two grand like people have that idea like is this going to be the hottest used pinball machine like as soon as people go to selda like are there people that are like I'm in when I get a used one for two grand less possibly but look look at look at I mean yeah maybe you're doing like the pirate scenario where okay you know these things are 20 Grand or whatever yeah but look at Godfather I mean Godfather didn't sell that great to my knowledge and Toy Story it's yeah toy jjp the number one thing is Price It's the perception of exactly it's basically if you're comparing their version and I know they have bells and whistles and they probably have a little bit more build of material than maybe a Stern however for the end user the perceived value you for a an an Le or Prem or platinum or whatever it's going to be let's just say the Platinum version of a jjp game the equivalency is the premium version of a Stern and so people are going to equate those prices and unless there's something that takes you beyond the premium version and whether or not that's fun quality whatever then people are going to generally go to the lowest uh price point and you have to say the best option right now with JJ with jjp is probably El John it's probably El John that's probably their best game right now and you add okay should I get that or should I get a Godzilla which is the best offer with Stern yeah so the price difference add something to that okay go ahead SC you know just it also availability of getting the game sure yeah be because jjp I mean they're they're good at getting games out the door but they don't do it like Stern I mean Stern gets them out quick yeah so so that's another thing well to tag onto that I have a buddy here locally that he has been on he's been in on uh Scooby-Doo since day one but he didn't get the blood sucker Edition he got the standard edition so he's at the one five he's at the end of the line and he here he is he hasn't like what I I I feel so bad for him because he anytime over the last probably six plus months he could have gotten a used Scooby-Doo blood suckers Edition for cheaper than what he is prepared to pay for for his standard edition right but he's trying to be like a loyal person like I I said I was gonna buy it I'm gonna buy it but when you have games like this it's just what do you don't do it like I I will tell anybody out there as somebody that sells games don't be loyal to something that cost you money in that way you know what I mean because we're we're all here to make a profit like yeah I love pinball and all that but we have to sell right to stay in business or I'm GNA love pinball while being unemployed so it just doesn't work like that so I would always recommend to everybody out there like don't fill a sense of loyalty to anything other than your family like do what's right for you don't feel forced to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars if it ain't right it ain't right don't be afraid to walk away that's the main thing like and I say this as somebody that sells these things like I don't want anybody to ever feel pressured that just because they do have a non-refundable deposit that there's just no way out you know and they got to buy this pen or like I've heard of people taking on a bunch of pens like in debt with credit cards that are 15 20% interest it's like you know it's like let's let's keep this under control you don't have to be forced to do anything don't put yourself in the poor house right exactly well Joel you do touch base though on what gets dangerous for these things and that's where you know it's tough for spooky that it's obvious that they want everybody to funnel up to the CE right you can look on their website and you get that feeling when you see what the cabinets look like for both you know TCM and for Looney Tunes it doesn't look anywhere near what the CE is for the blood sucker and for the standard and plus you're all the way on the back of the end of the line yeah right so they're obviously wanting to funnel everybody up there so that's just it's interesting to see the different types of companies how they go about getting people to buy their topthe line product and buy a lot of it yeah you know because I think I think we just see vast differences from how jjp does it how spooky does it and how Stern does it like they're three incredibly different companies spooky probably should have mixed that up a little bit that's why Stern does a little bit of a get the pros out there get them quickly get them out then do L but they've started mixing them up and doing like a little bit of Pros little bit of L's a little bit of premiums and so they are catering to all the market because it's one thing having the the product available that versus uh okay you can get the awesome thing two years down the line it it basically is unavailable let's make that unavailable so but we're also trying to compare strategies between you know stiring a mass manufacturer pinball versus spooky who's literally a boutique pinball company that's in the name Boutique so you can't call Spooky a boutique anymore I'm sorry I mean they're they're putting out as many games as jjp is I I would think they're putting out a lot put a lot of games they're doing well I mean they're yeah but but I mean I'm just saying compareed to stern it's hard to say of course well you could say the same thing about American or JJ cgc cgc cgc probably makes the least of all those Stern's the giant man I mean well they do it right releasing their Pros when they do because you see all the launch parties that's very like strategic marketing to get it on location advertise it get as many people playing the game and talking about it badges yeah well I think I would go ahead Josh you're I was just going to say I think to wrap it all up with what you guys are saying is like it's going to be an interesting going interesting year going into 2024 because of because of everything that we've talked about like we're we're a premium luxury item yet we have you know basement bargain buyers trying to drive down the price as much as they can so they can get it on clearance and it's a really weird dynamic and it seems like the manufacturers are feeding into that with closeout deals and stuff like that and just not positioning themselves right going into a few like and it's really weird to me too because like Stern has been doing this for 30 plus years now like they've been through the ups and the Downs of all this I mean 2000's almost closed their door but like we're kind of back to that point of like what is 2024 going to bring market-wise when we have so many that are refusing to buy now because you know they're just ripping us off versus uh you know that's I'm just sorry I'm saying that as I'm not saying that as loser kid I'm saying that as like that's the comments I read on you're projecting you're projecting what the what the buyer saying their mind correct and so uh it's it's just a really we've created a really weird environment going forward for pinball and it's going to be interesting to see who sustains and and and who ends up having to close door not not only Distributors and dealers but if manufacturers can even Carl Weathers this and I already see that some of them really can't I I'm not gonna start pointing fingers we don't have time for that so sure I mean I will say 2023 it's been a fun year it's been a good year there's been a lot of pinball a lot of pinball that's been putting out in 2023 um I do think all the companies are kind of pushing each other to be the best that they can um are all these companies still going to be around in 2024 at the end of 2024 I don't know but are all the Distributors still going to be around I don't know but as a as somebody who's who's really into pinball and loves pinball luckily there's a lot of games out there that you can buy you got a lot of different options you can buy them new you can buy them used um it's still there where would you buy those games at Joel uh who's who's paying me is I don't is where you behind on his check I know I just my commission check is just he just looks at me he's like I don't know if I'm going to say it loser kid is sponsored by flipping out the loser kid portion is brought to you by flipping out pinball contact Zack and Nicole Mini at flipping out pinball bye bye bye ding bye bye bye I but I'm just saying it's uh if if though if if part of this hobby though is a is a thought of this is I do this and I get to make money while I do it you might you might need to like readdress that this is never buy a pinball machine expecting for it to hold value yeah sure like that that's what I would recommend anybody even if you buy an Le like if somebody if you bought a pinball machine from somebody and they've told you yeah this will hold its value for you like like I wouldn't I wouldn't trust it and it's not to say it can't yeah there's certain variables where it can but don't have that be your driver because guess what happens there again right you're so price focused you want to buy low you want to sell High you want to go back and forth like it's meant to be a toy for adults that's not a tri XX adult toy except for Tom probably at some point Tom's a toy but still you know it's a it's a toy for us to play with and so it should be played and I get it there's people that buy the Le's it's an art thing it's a flex thing and it stays in their in their man cave and all that and we've seen that tons of times but when you look at premiums you look at Pros you look at everything else like just buy them to play have fun and buy it when the time's right for you the time's right for you is to buy new and box and you happen to be the type of buyer that needs free shipping there's companies out there for you if you're the type of buyer that wants to wait till it's used yeah there's plenty of opportunities out there too if you're the type of buyer that just needs it immediately no matter what yeah there's dealers out there for you with that also I mean that's the beauty of it I think I think another thing too is we need to keep in mind like the sky is not always falling like I think a great example of this is Bond Bond had have been like one of the roughest out of the gate releases but almost a year later it's being received very well people are loving it and people are loving where the cat has went but it took about a year for us to get to that point so I get you I get you well let's um we're approaching the two hour mark this is super long for you guys I know loser kid you guys are really good at that that one uh what I love is the feedback that we get Triple drain some people are like can you make a longer podcast and they're dead serious they're dead serious four hours and then there's other people that are like I I can't you've it's too whatever so it is what it is uh let's go ahead and plug it up uh Scott and Josh if you want to go for it plug away we are loser kid pinball podcast gmail.com if you want to get a hold of us you can get a hold of us there or on Facebook Twitter twitch sorry x uh whatever else uh YouTube hit us up at loser kid pinball leave us a comment we've we've received a lot of great positive comments out of all the shenanigans these last two weeks there has been a couple negatives um but I want you to understand like it's like a a 10 to one and so uh just there's there's a lot of people that want to speak their mind but they they just can't I guess or they don't want to or yeah any but the point being is if you want to hit us up that's the way to hit us up be safe be positive thanks no stabbing anyone uh Travis plug away my camera worked the whole entire time he did it guys who had the bet for full show oh I have no Christmas Mir wow we all lost actually Josh you lost because your camera fell imagine how elwin feels right now yeah yeah this is what that's what it took it took getting one of the greatest pinball designers of all time on our podcast and Travis just falling apart for him to step up his game figure out how to actually use this you know he actually said get get behind me boys I got this yeah jez all right uh is that your listen to us on Triple drain ball podcast too forgot the that's actually valid plug though cuz if people are hearing this on loser kid and loser kid listen to Loser kid podcast and come over to my neck of the woods YouTube the pinball company just W watch some stuff on there I'm not going to sell you anything just just watch the videos you guys will get me a Christmas bonus or something like that so give me a chill yeah wonderful Tom plug uh Fox Cities Pinball I like it y okay and what does fox Ci's do we stream pinball okay teach you how to play okay it's a lot of tournament streams he does it incredibly well Tom's way too humble if you if you want to watch hours the last year 600 I even forgot it was 6 his YouTube he throws up past to he just subscribe to him on YouTube there's a lot of good content there and then also live watch it on Twitch he's partnered they he does a fantastic job with all the tournaments he streams he is the best partnered tournament streamer in Wisconsin hands down hands down down hands down hands down yeah and uh I am Joel I do the flipping out uh pinball stream every Wednesday night from 10 to midnight Eastern Standard Time check us out on YouTube all of our past streams are there from this year uh and then obviously here on Triple drain I think we're all on silverball swag check us out for Merch there both loser kid and triple drain and um what I will say so guys this was a lot of fun everybody have a all of our listeners thank you for being a listener everybody have a wonderful and fantastic holiday uh it it's been a great year and um yeah Tom like always you get the last words I gotta go get Neil

_(Acquisition: youtube_auto_sub, Enrichment: v3)_

---

*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 58ec8987-a813-4497-8b8a-4c41be95c567*