# The Super Awesome Pinball Show - Episode 29 **Source:** The Super Awesome Pinball Show **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2022-04-30 **Duration:** 129m 25s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://superawesomepinballshow.libsyn.com/the-super-awesome-pinball-show-episode-29 --- ## Analysis The Super Awesome Pinball Show returns after a seven-month hiatus with a new crew member (Jeff Parsons) and features Lyman Sheets' final podcast interview before his passing. The episode covers Lyman's transition from Stern employee to independent contractor working with Chicago Gaming Company (CGC) on the Cactus Canyon remake, his philosophy on game design collaboration, and his broader consulting work across the pinball industry. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Christopher Franchi, Christian Line, and Jeff Parsons are the current hosting trio for The Super Awesome Pinball Show — _Formal introduction of new cast member Jeff Parsons in episode opening_ - [HIGH] Lyman Sheets officially left Stern Pinball in early November 2020 to become an independent contractor — _Direct statement by Lyman: 'I officially left Stern in early November of last year'_ - [HIGH] The Super Awesome Pinball Show was ranked #4 in the top podcasts at the Twippies (despite hiatus from September 2021 onward) — _Christian Line states: 'we were number four on the top podcast in the Twippies'_ - [HIGH] Lyman Sheets worked exclusively on Cactus Canyon as his first major contractor project after leaving Stern — _Lyman confirms CGC work and Josh Sharp's involvement; interview dated October 2021_ - [HIGH] Josh Sharp is CFO of Raw Thrills arcade company and contributes to pinball game design outside his primary role — _Josh states: 'You're the CFO of All Thrills, one of the biggest arcade companies in the world' and he confirms primary employment there_ - [HIGH] Lyman Sheets has been working from home since 2007 due to the intensive nature of game development — _Direct statement: 'I've been set up to work at home since 2007'_ - [HIGH] Josh Sharp has been consulting/contributing to multiple pinball manufacturers simultaneously (holds numerous NDAs) — _Josh references joking about NDA count and inability to track all of them; mentions work across multiple companies_ - [MEDIUM] Game design philosophy at modern Stern involves deliberate iteration and risk-reward mechanics beginning around AC/DC timeframe — _Lyman discusses shift toward 'faster experience for scoring' and 'more volatile' design starting around AC/DC_ - [HIGH] The Christmas special episode from the show's previous run is considered iconic and Orbital Albert's favorite individual podcast episode — _Christian Line states: 'Orbital Albert keeps saying that he's listened to that show more than once, and it's his favorite individual podcast episode ever'_ - [HIGH] Lyman Sheets was known as a reserved person who rarely gave interviews but loosened up during this show — _Christian Line: 'Lyman was, if anybody's ever met him, he's a very quiet person...But people who know him well know that he also has another side'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I try not to do these. Again, if I'm doing a podcast, I'm not helping to make the game and write the code, so it's kind of, you know, a little bit of a distraction." > — **Lyman Sheets**, During interview segment > _Reveals Lyman's philosophy prioritizing code work over media; explains his limited podcast appearances_ > "When my opinion, everybody's different, but my opinion is that the only appropriate time to leave a game company is kind of like in that two-week window at the end of your last project, but before your next project" > — **Lyman Sheets**, During interview segment > _Demonstrates professional ethics and responsibility toward game projects; explains reasoning for timing his Stern departure_ > "My dream job in life was always to work at a pinball company, and somehow Eugene has made beyond my dreams come true, because we're not a pinball company" > — **Josh Sharp**, During interview segment > _Reveals Josh's passion for pinball extends beyond his primary role at Raw Thrills; indicates Eugene (Raw Thrills leadership) supports his pinball consulting_ > "My goal in life is to leave pinball in general in a better place than I found it, and I'm happy to give back however I can." > — **Josh Sharp**, During interview segment > _Articulates Josh's motivation for extensive cross-industry consulting and IFPA work_ > "Game design doesn't work where you're one dude in a cave making something...Game design is all about iteration." > — **Lyman Sheets**, During interview segment > _Core design philosophy statement explaining why Lyman values collaboration; contextualizes his transition from solo work at Stern to team-based approach at CGC_ > "I haven't parked in my garage in two years because I've had Hot Wheels in it for a year and Cactus in it for a year." > — **Josh Sharp**, During interview segment > _Humorous illustration of Josh's hands-on testing commitment to arcade and pinball projects_ > "After time off, I've enjoyed the time off so much that I don't care anymore. You know what I mean? It's like I'm willing to let shit be maybe a little shittier than it used to be." > — **Christopher Franchi**, During show opening segment > _Indicates Franchi's willingness to relax perfectionism regarding podcast production to maintain work-life balance_ > "We have a knack of being able to pull out the fun in people that are normally reserved. Because, you know, Lyman was, if anybody's ever met him, he's a very quiet person." > — **Christopher Franchi**, Post-interview retrospective > _Explains the show's interviewing approach; acknowledges Lyman's typically private nature_ > "It's bittersweet. I still think about him from time to time. And it's going to be tough to listen to it knowing that he's not here anymore." > — **Christian Line**, Post-interview reflection > _Emotional acknowledgment of Lyman's passing; explains decision to air interview despite his death_ > "If you want to see behind the curtain, go get a job at Square and look behind the curtain. But they have a bunch of people working on software there." > — **Lyman Sheets**, During interview segment > _References the scale of software development at major manufacturers; Lyman's reference to 'Square' likely refers to Stern's studio complexity_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Christopher Franchi | person | Host of The Super Awesome Pinball Show; artist/designer known for pinball artwork; transitioned from Stern to Spooky Pinball; returns as primary host for show revival | | Christian Line | person | Co-host of The Super Awesome Pinball Show; also known as Dr. Pin; involved in show's return after seven-month hiatus | | Jeff Parsons | person | New third crew member of The Super Awesome Pinball Show; full-time radio DJ; president of New England Pinball League; created Pinball Players Podcast | | Lyman Sheets | person | Legendary pinball code designer; primary subject of final interview; worked at Stern Pinball for many years before becoming independent contractor for CGC Cactus Canyon remake; passed away before episode aired; known for designing/updating Monster Bash, Metallica, The Walking Dead, and other acclaimed titles | | Josh Sharp | person | CFO of Raw Thrills arcade company; consulted on Cactus Canyon remake with Lyman Sheets; extensive cross-industry pinball consultant with multiple NDAs; active in IFPA; passionate about pinball game design outside primary role | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; Lyman Sheets' former employer; discussed as context for his independent contractor transition; George Gomez referenced as leadership | | Chicago Gaming Company (CGC) | company | Manufacturer producing Cactus Canyon remake; hired Lyman Sheets as contractor for software development; Doug and Ryan mentioned as team leads | | Raw Thrills | company | Arcade company where Josh Sharp serves as CFO; Eugene referenced as leadership; supports Josh's pinball consulting work | | The Super Awesome Pinball Show | product | Pinball podcast returning for 2022 season after seven-month hiatus (since September 2021); ranked #4 in Twippies voting; produced by Ashat Radio Productions; hosts Christopher Franchi, Christian Line, and Jeff Parsons | | Cactus Canyon | game | Classic Williams pinball machine being remade by Chicago Gaming Company; primary focus of Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharp's collaborative work; discussed extensively in interview recorded October 2021 | | New England Pinball League | organization | Tournament league presided over by Jeff Parsons; began during pandemic; restarting season in May per episode discussion | | Orbital Albert / Albert | person | Host of Pinball Nerds Podcast; returning to podcasting; cited as fan of Super Awesome Pinball Show's Christmas special episode | | George Gomez | person | Stern Pinball leadership; discussed contractor arrangement with Lyman Sheets; referenced as collaborative partner | | Pinball Nerds Podcast | product | Podcast hosted by Orbital Albert; returning to regular content; mentioned as part of broader podcast revival | | Twippies | event | Pinball community awards voting; The Super Awesome Pinball Show ranked #4 despite hiatus | | Steve Ritchie | person | Pinball designer referenced in context of Lyman's collaboration history; known for hands-off 'make cool rules' approach | | John Borg | person | Pinball designer referenced as more hands-on collaborator with Lyman; discussed in context of game design styles | | IFPA | organization | International Flipper Pinball Association; Josh Sharp involved in IFPA work as part of his pinball giving-back efforts | | Pintastic | event | Pinball event where Super Awesome Pinball Show recorded their last full show before hiatus; referenced as possible annual recording location | | Keith Elwin | person | Pinball designer referenced for integrated game design approach; Lyman cited his work as example of cohesive design philosophy | ### Topics - **Primary:** Podcast revival and format changes, Lyman Sheets' career transition and legacy, Game design philosophy and collaboration, Cactus Canyon remake project - **Secondary:** Independent contracting in pinball industry, Cross-manufacturer consulting and NDAs, Podcast production and editing - **Mentioned:** Tournament and competitive pinball (NEPL) ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.55) — Episode carries bittersweet tone due to Lyman's passing, tempered by celebratory return of show and introduction of new crew member. Nostalgia for past content (Christmas special) and gratitude for Lyman's final interview balance melancholy. Hosts and guests express genuine affection and respect throughout. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Chicago Gaming Company (CGC) acquired/engaged Lyman Sheets as primary contractor for Cactus Canyon software development, indicating significant resource commitment to remake project (confidence: high) — Interview structure and Lyman's exclusive focus on CGC contract work; Josh Sharp's dual involvement suggesting major collaborative effort - **[community_signal]** The Super Awesome Pinball Show's popularity and influence despite irregular release schedule; ranked #4 in Twippies despite seven-month hiatus (confidence: high) — Christian Line: 'we were number four on the top podcast in the Twippies up against some pretty stiff competition' despite not airing from September 2021 onward - **[community_signal]** Broad industry recognition of Josh Sharp's consulting value; he maintains multiple simultaneous contracts with different manufacturers and holds numerous NDAs (confidence: high) — Josh: 'It's a lot of them...I can't confirm or deny which ones' and discussion of working across major players with day-to-day Slack interactions - **[design_philosophy]** Lyman Sheets advocates for collaborative game design model with dedicated resources rather than solo programmer responsibility; contrasts with pressure of individual code ownership (confidence: high) — Lyman: 'Game design doesn't work where you're one dude in a cave making something' and discussion of future studio development requiring separate game designer and code lead roles - **[event_signal]** New England Pinball League restarting its season in early May 2022 after pandemic disruptions; Jeff Parsons serving as president (confidence: high) — Jeff: 'the first week of May, I think is when we're going to do this' for upcoming Wimbledon League season - **[licensing_signal]** Cactus Canyon remake represents significant licensing negotiation; original Williams classic being remanufactured by Chicago Gaming Company with new personnel (confidence: medium) — Interview structure and focus on remaking classic title with new team; indicates IP rights secured by CGC - **[personnel_signal]** Lyman Sheets' reserved personality and reluctance to do interviews; this final podcast represents rare public appearance and extended discussion of his work (confidence: high) — Christian Line: 'Lyman was...a very quiet person. He's not super social' and Lyman's opening: 'I try not to do these...it's kind of a distraction' - **[personnel_signal]** Lyman Sheets transitioned from full-time Stern Pinball employee to independent contractor, immediately taking contract work with Chicago Gaming Company on Cactus Canyon remake (confidence: high) — Lyman: 'I officially left Stern in early November of last year...becoming a contractor was to continue to do work for Stern' and 'with CGC, this is kind of like a one-time thing' - **[product_strategy]** Raw Thrills arcade company supports internal pinball consulting work; indicates company strategy of leveraging pinball expertise for competitive advantage (confidence: medium) — Josh Sharp: 'My joke is that I would leave my wife before I left Eugene at Roth Rills' and discussion of dedicating significant time to pinball consulting while maintaining CFO role - **[technology_signal]** Stern's software development complexity has grown significantly; Lyman indicates need for multiple software personnel and dedicated management rather than single code lead (confidence: high) — Lyman: 'take a look at Guns N' Roses. I mean, how many software people for how long did they have on that game?' and discussion of future requiring separate game designer and code lead roles --- ## Transcript Sometimes we're funny Sometimes we talk This program contains dirty potty mouth Because we like to swear Hey! Ashat Radio Productions is proud to present The Super Awesome Pinball Show With your host, Christopher Franchi Dr. Pin, Christian Line, and Jeff Parsons. And now, the Super Awesome Pinball Show! Hey! Well, hello everybody, and welcome back to a totally free, no Patreon, no stars, no bullshit, 100% free Super Awesome 3.0, brand new for 22. I am your post-COVID voice damaged host, Christopher Franchi, And along with your other host, Christian Line, we have a new crew member to introduce to you this show. And we're also going to have Lyman Sheets' final interview. So it is a bittersweet show. We're very excited to introduce our new cast member. However, we do miss Lyman dearly. And we hope you will enjoy this final interview that he was gracious enough to give us before he passed. So stick around because the greatest fucking pinball podcast in the entire world is back. buddy. When we left to take some time off, we never really wanted to completely close the door to coming back in some capacity because we really love doing this show. And for me, it's just really fun hanging out and talking to him all with Franchi and all the amazing people in the industry we've interviewed over the last few years. But Chris, I think we haven't had a full show since September of 2021. So it's been about seven months and we were number four on the top podcast in the Twippies up against some pretty stiff competition and some really great weekly shows. So thank you to everyone who voted for us and it's good to be back. Yeah, that was pretty cool. I was really surprised that we did that well considering we didn't do shows for the last half of the year but the first half of the year the shows were stellar, weren't they? Aw, yeah! And we're back with some more great shows. I'm excited that we're doing this again and we have a third musketeer to our trio here who's going to join us for some pinball podcasting. Yeah, we did let the cat out of the bag a little bit in the fancy intro there But we would like to introduce the third wheel, the guy who gets us donuts, the guy who's probably more handsome than me and Christian put together. And the guy who actually does this sort of thing for a living. On behalf of Christian and myself, I'd like to introduce Mr. Jeff Parsons. Yeah, who had the grande with the vanilla, hazelnut, caramel, skinny mocha, slushy soy. No, seriously? He's like a black coffee kind of dude. Is there whipped cream? Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. No, give me all that shit. I hate, I mean, I like coffee, but I hate coffee. I need coffee, but the taste is fucking awful. So the more shit I can put in there, the better. I mean, I would just sink a Hershey bar there and stir it up. Yeah. I would just use to say diabetes. Diabetes. Well, you know, whatever. You know, at least I live my life to my fullest. How you doing? It's nice to be back with you guys. For real. For good. You're a full-time radio DJ, and you are joining us. So I know things are only going to improve. Well, no, I'm kidding. But you're also the president of the New Robert Englunds Pinball League, and you created the Pinball Players podcast, and you're just an all-around great guy. So I'm really happy you're here. It's going to be fun podcasting with you. Yeah, this should be fun. Yeah, the president of the New Robert Englunds Pinball League took that office just as a thing called the pandemic happened. Oh, great. That was perfect timing. That was perfect. It's like, what a mess. It's like we're sitting here like, okay, do we do this, don't we do this? And we're like, eh, we don't do this. And then we were off for a while and then we came back for a week, not for a week, for a season and then it surged again and we were off for a season. Now we're just about to start our next season in the Wimbledon League coming up in about a, well, let's see, the first week of May, I think is when we're going to do this. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, back at it. Back at it and lots of controversy, which I'm sure we'll get into with the ICA and all that good stuff with the NEPL, but welcome. I'll talk to you notes for that. Nice. Nice. Jeff, I'm so glad you're here to discuss this shit with him because I have no idea what the fuck he's talking about. Finally, we can talk some competitive pinball, Jeff. I like it. There you go. I think I discovered Head to Head and then Pinball Profile and then it was the Pinball Players Podcast. So, I mean, you had the best editing of any show out there when I first started listening to you. And then you guys went off the air. So I'm happy that you're coming back to do a little bit more. Yeah. You know, and the reason, and I've said this for those that listen, the reason I just don't have the time and the time of editing. And, well, you know, Franch, look at all the things you do for this show. I don't do half the stuff that you put in your show. And it was still, I mean, it was just a long chore to edit. And it just got to be, my life got overwhelmed. And I'm like, I really can't do this on a regular basis. You're going to have to get used to saying our show because it's not my show or my Christian show. You're part of it now, so it's our show. Yes, but you do the editing. So as far as that goes, that's all you. Because I said, sure, I'll do this. I don't edit. God damn it. That is the biggest ask for an interview. You know, I was, to be completely honest, I was talking to Christian when we first started talking about bringing you in. And I said, you know, it might be cool because maybe we can get him to edit the interview. And then I'll edit all the other stuff. And so that'll take the load off of me a little bit, take the load off of him, you know, doing his own show, just doing a small part of our show. And then as soon as I talked to you, he was like, yeah, I found out how to edit. And I'm like, oh, oh. You know, Chris, you're such a perfectionist, though. I don't see you giving the reins to anyone else. I mean, I can edit like Parsons can, but I offered when we first started doing this to do some editing. And you were like, no, no, I've got it because I have my own way of doing it. After time off, I've enjoyed the time off so much. I have truly missed doing this, but I've enjoyed the time off so much that I don't care anymore. You know what I mean? It's like I'm willing to let shit be maybe a little shittier than it used to be. Sure. Just so I don't have to do it, so I can stay happy doing this and putting all the work in and all that. Yeah, that's the thing. I always said I'd do it until it was becoming more work than it was a hobby. And it became, with my real job, as more responsibilities happened, it became work at that point. Yeah. Having Joe on the show was great as well, and I really enjoyed it. Hey, actually, can you hear this? Joe Lemire. There you go, Joe. We love that guy. He's amazing. We're going to miss him on the air for sure. Yeah. It just could be too much for me. So we had our last show at Pintastic. You were there for that, Dr. Pim. Yeah, it was a great show. It was a lot of fun. And I think as long as you're okay with this franchise, since I'm now part of this show, I still would like to once a year do that show at Pintastic. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. If you want to lose it. I'm totally down with that. And also, I'm not as drastic as what we did. But I feel that if we, you know, right around Christmas time when, or I should say the holidays, when, like, everybody's busy, Thanksgiving and all that stuff, if we just take, like, a two-month, you know, month-and-a-half break through there, I think we can stay fresh and stay motivated and all that. And no one's going to miss us because everybody's so busy around that time. And there's no games coming out. Nobody gives a shit. So, you know, maybe that'll help us not take seven months off. The Christmas show that we did with all the interviews is so good that I think we can just re-release that every year around Christmas time. Orbital Albert keeps saying that he's listened to that show more than once, and it's his favorite individual podcast episode ever. Awesome. Which is quite nice. I appreciate that, Albert. He's back as well. He's back. So all the podcasts are coming back for a bit of a revival now. What is it? Pinball Nerds Podcast? Is that what it's called? Pinball Nerds Podcast. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So look up Albert. He's definitely a different kind of a show and entertaining. So, yeah, we did. I always told him that I missed him, and I sent him a message saying that I was glad he was back. So, as I said earlier, shoot out to Ray Albert there. Beauty, eh? Well, we've got a hell of a show today, and this is a, you know, it's great to have Jeff on board. We're going to start easy and just start an interview that we did many moons ago. I don't know when we recorded this, but it was way before any of the Cactus information had come out for the remake. And it's a really great interview. Josh Sharpe and the one and only Lyman Sheets. It's long overdue. It's a little dated at this point, but we wanted to hold off airing it for a while after we lost Lyman. That was a time for tributes and paying respects to one of the pillars of the pinball history, really. Definitely. And, you know, it's not really that dated because a lot of stuff they talk about is the stuff that they were working on for that extension that has not been put out yet. True, true. Yeah, there was a lot of stuff they couldn't talk about that I think has come out and some details have come out now. But, yeah, there's a lot of new stuff in there, fresh stuff. And I just feel really fortunate that we got a chance to talk to Lyman and kind of dive into his last pinball project. We had planned, Chris, you and I, to do a fireside chat of sorts a week or two after we recorded that, but he passed before we got to do that. So this interview is really primarily focused on his work on Cactus. But we covered a lot of ground. Yeah, definitely. It was a really good interview. I just, I don't know. I think, you know, we have a knack of being able to pull out the fun in people that are normally reserved. Because, you know, Lyman was, if anybody's ever met him, he's a very quiet person. He's not super social. But people who know him well know that he also has another side that most people don't see. And, you know, he definitely loosened up with us. And we had a lot of fun. And it is bittersweet. I still think about him from time to time. And it's going to be tough to listen to it knowing that he's not here anymore. I know for many people, though, hearing him talking about pinball again is going to be really special. So we wanted to wait to do this, but I think it's an appropriate time now. Lots of people are missing him still, and we will forever miss Lyman. But I think it would be unfair to not play this interview. and I know a lot of people out there really want to know what he had to say about the project and just hear him again. Definitely. So, yeah, I guess without further ado, let's go into the final interview that Lyman Sheets gave along with Josh Sharpe about the release of Cactus Canyon, among other things. And we will be back with that interview right after this. Everybody stick around because we'll have some more stuff after the interview. You're not going to want to miss. We'll be right back. Guess what? I got a fever. And the only prescription is the Super Awesome Pinball Show. Oh, yeah! Super Awesome! This show is sponsored by Cointaker, distributor of brand new, full-size, authentic Stern Pinball, Chicago games, raw thrills, arcade games, and much more. Also, a full line of dramatic pinball mods, LED flipper kits, speaker lights, custom laser LED toppers, playfield protectors, Valley Williams parts, pinball apparel, and much more. Get the latest releases and glam out your game room with Cointaker. Everything at your fingertips at Cointaker.com. Get your game on. This is Steve Richard, and you are listening to the Super Awesome Pinball Show. Hey everybody, just a quick editor's note here. This interview was recorded back in October of 2021, and throughout the interview, Lyman was playing with his microphone cord, and you can hear little rustling and clicking noises throughout the interview, which is a little irritating, but for some reason, we never told him to stop. So, please bear with us. I think you'll find the interview worth a listen. It does become less frequent as he goes on. So welcome to the show, guys. Josh, we know you're no stranger to podcasts, but Lyman, we know you don't do a lot of podcasts or interviews, so we're really grateful you're joining the show. Thanks for having me. I try not to do these. Again, if I'm doing a podcast, I'm not helping to make the game and write the code, so it's kind of, you know, a little bit of a distraction. But Chris and I have worked together before, and I'm super appreciative of the work that he did on Batman, and that's kind of how it goes with the podcast stuff for me. It's like, you know, if I can kind of help out a friend, I try to when I can. I'm excited to get to hear Lyman's podcast first before the rest of them. That's right. It's a world premiere exclusive on the Super Awesome Pinball Show. Just for me. Just for me. This is for you. Well, let's start at the beginning, guys. In terms of, you know, what you're both up to professionally at this point and how you both got involved in the project. So, Lyman, you know, let's get this out of the way right away. For the last number of years, you've been working exclusively for Stern Pinball. Can you tell us a little bit more about when you officially left Stern and how you got started working with CGC? Yeah, sure. So I officially left Stern in early November of last year. And it really started out as kind of a business decision. And when all of the issues happened with the pandemic and we all, I mean, I was early on set up. I mean, I've been set up to work at home since 2007 just because, I don't know, I feel like involving game development is sort of like a 24-7 job. You never really get it out of your head. And sometimes you have ideas for things or whatever it happens to be. And it's like, well, I want to go work on this now. And I have to drive into work and do all these other things. It's just much easier to just go into a room in your home and make it happen. So I had talked with George a little bit about, you know, like, hey, I want to maybe think about becoming a contractor and still doing work for Stern. And it just made more sense business-wise where, as an employee, I wasn't allowed to contribute to 401k there, the work-from-home thing. and that's been the case since, you know, I think like 2003 or 2004. And so, you know, I contribute to an IRA. But still, it's whatever. Tough problem to have, I guess. And just working from home, being able to do the home office deduction, also with travel, what I do, if I'm working from home going into Stern, I'd be able to deduct mileage. I also buy all of the games that I work on because, like I say, Working on this stuff is a 24-7 job, and I play a lot of my stuff. And so I think to this day, a lot of the games, we certainly try to do our best to get the games out in good shape. But we've really been evolving the product from what was pretty much only a coin-op product in the 90s to where we would put games out on test for a couple months, get feedback, iterate on the game design and try to make it more fun and make it earn more money and stuff. Really, now we do these product launches where the world has really never seen this stuff before. So we have to take that burden on ourselves. So there's also, after the game is released, a lot of iteration and feedback from customers. We certainly listen to our customers and try to incorporate useful ideas and changes into the product. And so that's the kind of thing where I could use my business to purchase again and the business would own it and then it wouldn't be, you know, paid for with after-tax. Like I'm getting into a lot of stuff, whatever. No, but that makes a lot of sense. I mean, finances are a big deal. Yeah, also to be able to, you know, accept work or not accept work, to just have that choice. And then, you know, kind of as it goes. So George and I talked about that. Yeah, no problem. Let me have some time to set up a company to make all of this happen. And it's kind of like, you know, it goes how it goes. When my opinion, everybody's different, but my opinion is that the only appropriate time to leave a game company is kind of like in that two-week window at the end of your last project, but before your next project, because, you know, again, like people think like, oh, you work at a game company, it's all fun and games, you guys have fun, you play games all day. Well, some people do, but the people who do the real work don't do that. And it's a lot of hard work and there are millions of dollars invested in development of the product and there are people's livelihoods that are affected by the success or failure of the product. And so for me, I take it very seriously. And when I'm in the middle of a project, I'm in the middle of a project. And so how do you do this? You resign from Stern, you start a company. And then it was kind of like that resign from Stern part that opened up all these other doors to other things because a lot of other people, they won't touch you while you're, you know, an employee or whatever. But once you're available, then it's kind of like, well, hey, how about this? How about that? Right. I can vouch for that. That's sort of how it all happens. Well, I mean, you are an asset that a lot of people want access to. Have you had a lot of job opportunities over the years while you've been at Stern that you've been unable to act on? I have had other opportunities just like everybody else. And, I mean, for me, I want to be happy with the work that I do. And being a programmer is a tough job. I mean, we're really more like game designers at this point than programmers. I mean, I know Keith's programmer, Rick, because Keith does his game rules, which I think is great because he has like kind of this play field rule, cohesive design that I think works out great because I've seen the other side of that, which I think is, you know, I saw a little bit with, you know, Steve and Dwight on Star Wars where there's this kind of, I don't know what you want to say. like non-cohesive, I guess, is what I would say. And I guess it's why, you know, again, with George, I try to say like, you know, get me involved in the beginning of the project with a designer so that we can work on something together. And so, yeah, I mean, for me, the software part of it is just a big job. So, yeah. So, Lyman, is CGC exclusively where you are now or are you going to be consulting for other companies at the same time? Well, with CGC, this is kind of like a one-time thing where I'm doing it to hopefully help everybody out. Josh, you can speak to this a little bit, too. There goes Barlow. Oh, is that your dog? Yeah. No, it's my cat. Oh, well. My cat barks. You never know. Let's say that, I mean, you had already mentioned that you're starting your own kind of business, your own company. Does that mean that you can work elsewhere as well, or are you exclusive to another company, like, say, Raw Thrills? I'm a contractor, and right now I have one client, which is CGC. And like I say, I didn't expect that things would work out this way, but they did. And I'm pretty happy about it, actually, because we get into talking about the game a little bit. that the development of it, and again, Josh, feel free to chime in. We've all been playing Cactus Canyon for a while, and I say about the software being a tough job, game design, there are a lot of pieces already in place that kind of helped guide the design of the game to make things a little bit easier, where I think the hardest thing is to be scaring at a blank piece of paper with a deadline where you have to do a creative job. As an engineer, it's much easier if somebody says, here's the design, just make this for me, where you're more of a designer. Having to stare at that blank piece of paper and come up with the creative aspects of the design is much harder under pressure. Yeah, I think, and Frank, you could probably speak to this, but like as a contractor, the future is you have no fucking idea, you know, what's going to be happening years from now. And I think living and working in the moment is where, at least with Cactus, Lyman and I spend all of our time talking about Cactus because that's the job that's at hand. That's the hole on the golf course that we're on right now. So living and breathing it every day. We want to get deep into the game and what you guys are doing for it. But, Josh, I mean, your primary job is in gaming but not necessarily in pinball. You're the CFO of All Thrills, one of the biggest arcade companies in the world. So just to put the rumors to rest, you're not leaving Roth Rills to be a pinball coder at this point. I appreciated all the texts from people that wished me luck moving on. My joke is that I would leave my wife before I left Eugene at Roth Rills. My dream job in life was always to work at a pinball company, and somehow Eugene has made beyond my dreams come true, because we're not a pinball company, and I wouldn't leave it for anything. So for me, you know, it's been what I've been doing with Doug and the CGC team and now with Lyman is the same shit I've been doing for 20 years. And that's helping anyone that sees my involvement as something that they can take advantage of and make the game better. So I know that, like, Franchi, for example, keeps following me into every manufacturer's Slack channel. Because, you know, I'm everywhere helping out with the people that see me as a potential asset to help with rules design, help with game feedback, help with play testing. I mean, I haven't parked in my garage in two years because I've had Hot Wheels in it for a year and Cactus in it for a year. I think what I do with the IFPA, it's kind of an extension of that. My goal in life is to leave pinball in general in a better place than I found it, and I'm happy to give back however I can. Some companies choose to broadcast that more publicly than others, and obviously Doug and Ryan and the CGC team certainly broadcasted it a certain way this time, but it's all the same. My day-to-day, what can I do to help? And if you're a pinball manufacturer and think I can possibly help, hit me up. I mean, I'm not sure that pinball hobbyists really appreciate how much consulting work you do. In our Facebook chat, you joke a lot about how many NDAs you have. And you can't even keep track of all of them. So how many companies are you working with outside of CGC? Is it all the major players? It's a lot of them. It's a lot of them. I think it depends on certainly on the level. I can't confirm or deny which ones. helping with. There's certainly some where I'm in the day-to-day, you know, Slack interaction, and there's some where it's a random email from a game designer or a programmer that's just, you know, has a question or wants my opinion on something, and I'm happy to give it. I'm happy to give it usually unsolicited. So, unsolicited or solicited. Sometimes the unsolicited ones get me in trouble, but you know what? The good part about, you know, not being on anyone's payroll is that I'm free to really, you know, focus on it. It's a hobby and passion of mine. You know, I think kind of the same way that it is for you, Christian, where, you know, all the time you're putting into this is obviously you love the game, right? And this piece, you know, podcasting that you could do, it's like, what can I give back to the world because pinball has given me so much? And for me, it's the tournament stuff. And it's, you know, having both Zach and myself, you know, just years of hours on machine of like, I don't know, I feel like we have a pretty decent finger on the pulse of stuff that is fun or not fun. And certainly I've known Lyman since I was in junior high that like we share a lot of the same, I think, vision for what a pinball entertainment experience should be. So I don't find that we're disagreeing a whole lot. So it's nice to have a like-minded person who, you know, gets where I'm coming from and he certainly is hopefully comfortable enough to bounce any ideas he has off of me for feedback and vice versa. Yeah, absolutely. It's been, how do I say this? You know, I feel like at Stern, and this is part of the pressure thing, which pressure is great for game developers because it forces them to get things done. But pressure, like game design in a vacuum, is a lonely job. And just having someone to, normally it's game designer, bounce ideas off the game designer. and being able to work with Josh on this game because I kind of feel like, well, around ACDC timeframe at Stern, I really feel like I've been kind of making game rules a little bit, you know, and sort of by myself a little bit where, okay, here's what we're doing with the game, work with the game designer a little bit. It's fun, you know, working with people like Steve Ritchie where he's, you know, like, hey, just make me some cool rules. okay, John Borg is a little bit more hands-on. A lot of times it's, you know, there's, you know, Bastoy Multiball a little bit, there's fast scoring, there's wizard mode stuff. And then for me, when I was looking at games back then, you know, again, probably starting around ACDC timeframe, just to try to get a little bit, you know, quicker experience for scoring and have the game be a little bit more volatile and a little bit more risk-reward, But really trying to, you know, narrow those things down into something that could work in a pinball machine, I kind of felt like, yeah, I'm kind of doing this on my own. And working with Josh on Cactus has been great because, I mean, that's just kind of how game design works. Game design doesn't work where you're one dude in a cave making something. You know, I don't know. I don't know too many Tony Starrs in the game business. But, yeah, just game design is all about iteration. and you can never probably really get something to be 100%, but if it's 50%, can we make it 70% fun or 80% fun? And being able to bounce ideas off of someone and being able to just go through that iteration process with not too many other people, but one or two other people is probably really what I've enjoyed most out of working on this project. Yeah, Lyman, so before we get on to the games you've done for CBC, there's one part of your current situation that's a little bit cloudy. As far as going independent and being a contractor, the way you described it made it sound like the door is still open for you to do work at Stern. Is that true or is that door closed? Well, I could only speak for myself. But the original intention was that becoming a contractor was to continue to do work for Stern. and George, I mean, I kind of gave George an idea as to like, hey, you know, I can't do this by myself. I need some help with this stuff. And, you know, either I get some help with it or I take kind of like a lesser role in the company, you know, maybe become. I mean, I would love nothing more than to work on new games. But there's a big responsibility with that. And you really can't just do it by yourself, really, anymore. I mean, if you look at the game designer can do it by himself. The mechanical engineer could probably do it by himself. The artist can certainly do it by himself. And the sound person can do it by himself. But when you look at software, I mean, Jesus Christ, take a look at Guns N' Roses. I mean, how many software people for how long did they have on that game? And not to open up the curtain really at all. You know, if you want to see behind the curtain, go get a job at Square and look behind the curtain. But they have a bunch of people working on software there. And, you know, it's hard. I think, I mean, I think the general evolution of where things will probably go with pinball development, if things continue to grow as they have over the last 10, 11 years, 20, 25 percent player base, sales, whatever, with, you know, those obvious challenges thrown in, you know, like a pandemic where your factory shut down for two months or whatever else it happens to be, you know, play field issues or what, bringing these systems online. I mean, really, to me, the future of big studio development is where there is a game designer who does game design and rules and whatever, because even just doing that is a full-time job. And you look at the job of a software person, I mean, however many people you have on the project, the lead is responsible for managing all of those people and organizing things to make sure things get done. And it's a hard job. Lemon, did you feel like you didn't have access to those resources or you were being put in a situation where you were given all of the responsibility for a code and you weren't happy about that? was, I'm trying to figure out what it was at Stern that didn't give you that. I look at it kind of like, I guess, you know, being put on studio titles is the kind of thing where it's good and it's bad. It's good in that the thing I always appreciated about my role there is that I, as far as game rules go, I mostly had the freedom to do what I wanted to do. And then for any thing that you're super excited about and happy about, you know, there are always trade-offs where, okay, so, you know, you have to work with tons of other people. You have a schedule, you have a deadline and all these other things. But yeah, you know, I think probably one of the worst things you could probably do is in an environment like that, that's very fast paced, is to prove competency where I think once people kind of get into this position where they're like, well, he'll take care of it. It'll turn out fine in the end or this or that, and you're operating maybe a little short stack that a lot of times maybe you do don't get all of the resources you either want or need. So yeah, a little bit, but. I think a lot of people look at you as a guy who does it all himself. And that's, you know, just by virtue of the fact, I think that you're a perfectionist and you like to make sure everything is done, you know, perfectly. But I wonder how much of the stress that you were under is due to the fact that because you're so good at what you do, they didn't think you needed the extra help or you didn't have that army of people to help you tweak certain aspects of code just because they assumed you were going to handle it. And that's a tough place to be. Is everybody there like that? Are the new hires, the Tim Sexton's, doing most of the programming themselves or are they given a cadre of people to help them? Well, again, not to open up the curtain too much. There is a lead programmer for each product There a lead programmer and there is a cast of support programmers for each project And the resources vary from project to project I would say I certainly am allocated the least number of resources. And other, I wouldn't say so much programmers maybe, but some game designers probably have more resources allocated to them. And depending on the scope of the project. You know, something like, I would say, like Munsters, where the scope is maybe a little, and Black Knight, where the scope is a little shorter, versus something that you know, like, wow, this is going to have a lot of stuff in it and be pretty big, like Star Wars. So it really varies. Each game is kind of different in a lot of respect. Makes sense. Yeah. We kind of went off track because we're so curious about your history, Lyman, and a lot of the things that have happened recently. But I know you guys are on to talk about Cactus Canyon, so we definitely want to jump back into that. Lyman, you were the programmer on the original version of every CGC game that they've put out so far. So did they come to you in the past and ask you for your input on those games, or is this the first time that you've ever really been involved? This is pretty much the first time I've ever really been involved. My only other involvement prior to that, I think probably the first time I met Ryan at CGC, was at MGC when we had Batman there. And I'm just standing in the booth chatting with, I can't remember who was there, I think Mike Vinicorn was there, a bunch of other guys from Stern. And we had a Batman in a Stern booth. And then the CDC booth was right next to us. And I look over there and there's all this stuff. You know, I worked on 20, 25 years earlier. And that's when I first met Ryan. And he's kind of, you know, Ryan's, you know, he was there representing the company at the show. And we chatted a little bit. And he gave me his business card and said, hey, you know, do you ever want to talk or this or that? let me know and uh i didn't really again i when i'm involved in a project again the timeline of all of the things that i worked on at stern elvira was actually supposed to be i believe the expo game in 2016 and greg and dennis and i had kind of started to really kind of get into that project at in in december of 2015 and then you know like batman was kind of flip-flopped in there and so So those projects kind of swapped. And then I was sort of looking at things like, well, I still have a commitment to finish this game that I agreed to finish. And that was Batman and Elvira was next up to that that I kind of said, yeah, I'm going to commit to this game and I'm going to work on it and finish it up. So I just kind of shrugged it off at the time. But then again, as far as Cactus goes, it wasn't something that I was looking to do. But once it was presented, it really made a lot of sense that Josh and I, because, again, we have all of this history of playing all these games, that we could finish up the game in the context of a, you know, late 90s Dally Williams game. And Cactus really has kind of that same structure that those other three games have, the two games that I did with Brian and the game that I did with George, Monster Bash. The kind of story-based build-up, you know, to a conclusion and a payoff on the shots and a boy and lots of characters and humor. And so when it was presented, it really made a lot of sense. And I started to get excited about it because it wasn't big studio pinball. It was just kind of like, here's this game that already has a foundation, and can you finish building the house? Right. And that, where I was, certainly the amount of work that I put into both Batman and Elvira, that was something that was very welcome. Yeah, definitely. I can see that. So CGC first scores the great Lyman Sheets, and then, poof, along comes Josh. No, I was, that's the project. Josh was. I've been on the project that Lyman was working on Walking Dead probably Oh wow. It's not that long, but a long time. How did you get started? One of those phone calls. Doug Dubow over there, you know, telling me what he's a cabinet vendor for us, so we'll talk shop a lot, and he was telling me what he was working on. You know, he talked about the CGC team trying their best to finish the game, and I do what I always do, which is, hey, if there's anything I can do to help, let me know. And he sent over this like 102 page design document that the CGC team did. And, you know, I went through it and gave some feedback of the stuff that I thought was cool, the stuff that I thought wasn't. And just said, you know, anytime that you want me to help write anything new or tell you what I think is fun, not fun, help iterate with the team, you know, I'm here. So it was mostly that for a while. And when the opportunity with Lyman came along, I think, you know, it was always important. I had told Doug that the game to me, you know, the heart and soul of that game is it's almost like a licensed game, even though it's an unlicensed game, in that this team from Williams created this universe the same way that if you did a Batman 66, like someone created that stuff, you know. And so the job with this project to me was always let's try to finish what these people couldn't finish because it's a group of really talented people that obviously had ideas. and you start looking at, I remember, you know, starting with Lyman on this stuff, and you're looking at the artwork, and I can remember, like, sending an email to John Yousi of, like, who's this person? You know, you zoom in 400x, and it's like, he drew this character randomly for some reason. It's like, what's the story behind this dude? Or you talk to, you know, we were fortunate enough to talk to Matt Correale, the original programmer, and it's like, hey, man, what's in your notebook? Like, where were you going here? Where were you going here? Did you try anything that worked? Didn't work. So we're not stepping in the same, you know, puddles you did. Like the job was really less about, you know, being handed a blank play field and hey, man, build the universe and make it good. It was really like, I don't know, more of a school project is probably the wrong term. But like we had some resources of people that had put in a lot of the creative work. It was more like solving a puzzle of what can we do to honor these folks that really dreamt up the game, you know, in the beginning 20-whatever years ago. And I think that was a really interesting challenge. It's almost like the creative freedom to do whatever you want is sometimes easier than, you know, trying to work within the specific limitations that the game has to offer. I know that what Lyman just spoke to regarding the games that were made from that era, I call it, there's a certain, like, Williams charm to those games. Like, how the rules are, how the sounds are. There's something to that era that is just very specific to that era. And we didn't want to lose that with what we were doing to help add on to that game experience. And I think that was really challenging to do. I call it a lot of, like modern pinball, you have such a long story to tell that it's kind of like 1 to 10. You have a whole lot to tell. And with these Williams games, it kind of starts at 7 and goes from 7 to 10. So the shots that you're making to progress is really that 1 to 6. And then you start a mode, and it's already three-quarters of the way of that story being told for that mode. And it's just very different than a lot of the modes today where you start something and it's like, all right, chapter one, everyone, sit down. It's time to start, you know, whittling some wood here. It was a neat challenge specifically for this, and obviously having Lyman on board who lived that in the 90s was a pleasure. It's still a pleasure as we continue to work through and problem-solve on this thing. Yeah, there was a lot of upfront kind of, it wasn't just jump in and write code. There was definitely a lot of research, both starting with the research and the documentation that the CGC crew did on the game, And then, as Josh has been talking with Dak Correal, I didn't talk with John. And I'm sorry, Josh, you obviously talked to a lot more people than I did on this. Yeah, and Frankie, who did Continued. Anyone that had anything to do in that Cactus universe that we can help use as a resource to make the game better, we hit up, for sure. Those are all questions that we had, yeah. We wanted to ask you a little bit about how you went back and looked at what has been done in the past, because Continued was out, and I know PrepKey put a ton of time into that. And I know there's a treasure trove of stuff that didn't get used in the original game that was actually finished. So we want to go through each of those things individually with you. Yeah, so earlier this month, CGZ puts out a press release that you guys have joined the crew to create new and enhanced software for Cactus Canyon Remake. But before and after that statement, we had been hearing rumors that you guys were working on both an update for the existing code and also an entirely new rule set that could be sold as a form of pinball DLC in the future. Josh, can you officially give us the confirmation on what is and is not coming? No, I can't. I can't confirm or deny the work that Lyman and I are doing and really the work that Lyman's doing and what I'm helping him do. He gets to write the code. I get to have all the fun parts. You get to have all the fun. I do. I do. But ultimately, guys, that's a question for Doug and for Ryan. $35. In terms of what they do with our work, right? Like, we have an idea, but it's not something that we can speak to. Okay. Sorry. So basically, the CGC team is working on the game's code, and that's what will be released with the game when it ships. You guys will be working to further enhance that code after the release date? Certainly, I believe that their shipping of games is pretty imminent, hopefully, and we are certainly not done with what we're doing. I can say that. How's that? Yeah, no, that's good. So have you guys, before you were even brought in, Josh, had they been working to enhance the code, or were they just trying to get the code to where it was in the original? No, it was definitely an enhancement. I mean, they put in a lot of effort. You know, this design document that had, you know, storyboards from the artist that was on the project and rules concepts from the programmer that was on the project. I think they, and what made it great was their process was very similar to where Lyman and I were coming from, which was, you know, in the design document that they had, it was like referencing the Expo seminar that the CGC team did 18,000 years ago. Like, there was a lot of that same, we're trying to finish the game that these guys did, and there were some, you know, audio files in the ROM that existed. Like, there's a lot of, sort of going back to my puzzle piece analogy, it's like you're trying to finish, someone hands you a 500-piece puzzle, and you know the pieces are there, you don't quite know how they fit, and you know that you might have to cut a couple of your own pieces to put in there to help make it fit. But I think that, you know, there was a natural, like, finishing of the stuff that they did, but also making sure that they were providing additional experiences that fit within sort of that 90s game design. So I think Lime and I just are taking that even a step further. So it's clear you guys are going to continue to work on the code after the game is released in some way to enhance it. I guess you guys aren't comfortable to really tell us where the code will be when the game comes out in terms of whether it will be new and improved or any of the features that will come with that, or are we just going to be talking strictly about where you want it to go down the road? No, I mean, the game that people will be getting when it ships will not be, you know, the base Williams Cactus Canyon. There is a lot of work that was done to help get that game into a position that it can stand on its own, regardless of what Lyman and I have been working on. Okay, and you can't speak to any of the things that are going to be there. No. Okay, that's fine. Here's $105. Yeah, right. So we'll talk specifically about what you guys are going to add to it. He laughed his ass off listening to that. You cannot confirm or deny. I love it. So, Lyman, it's my understanding that this game is being coded in a way that is going to bring the original code into a new programming language. Instead of just taking the ROM out of the old game and sticking it in the new game, they're kind of rewriting some of the code so that it fits into their coding language. How difficult is that process, and why couldn't you just use some sort of emulating software to bring that in without getting too crazy technical, if you can even answer that? Sure, I'll try to answer that. I'll have to dance around a couple of things. I guess the easiest thing to say is that it is not using emulation. It is native, written from the ground up code, which basically allows, it makes it much easier for the amount of things that are being added to the game. Because ideally, I think in a perfect world, CGC probably would have just emulated Cactus Canyon if the original design team were allowed to finish the game in 1998, whenever they were working on the game. and they wouldn't have really needed to add anything, and they could have just emulated the code in the ROMs, the 1609 assembly language. But when you're talking about adding game rules and so many other things, it's a lot easier to just work natively with source code than try to hook in and patch on and kludge in all these other things when you're emulating the original code from the ROMs. That makes sense. All right, well, let's dive into the existing code and what enhancements you're going to make to it. This isn't the first time that someone has tried to retool the code for a game. Eric Priepke worked on enhanced code, and Cactus Canyon continued. Have you guys played with that version? Yeah, right. Lyman, you had it on. Yeah. It was like a science project. We constructed everything that Eric had done in that game and absolutely pulled some stuff out of his game that's going to make it into this updated game. Yeah, I contacted him as if he was a member of the original design team. He was on my list of someone that we wanted to talk to because outside of the people that invented the universe, he was probably the one guy that has spent more time within the universe as anyone else. So he was definitely a resource. I don't think he knew that Lyman was on the project, but Eric knew that I was on the project. I was the one who reached out to him. He knew I'd been on the project for a while. And, yeah, so we definitely had some questions about where some of the things that he was doing on that thing. And there will definitely be some CCC stuff or homages to his stuff in our games because it fit well within the universe that we were trying to build, you know, from the 90s game. Nice. And you said you'd reached out to Matt Correale as well. Did he help you bring some of the assets that he never got to into the new game? And did he have ideas for new things that could be added as well? A lot of it was, and I think Lionel spoke to it earlier, but the time to iterate. It's like he spent more time talking about the stuff that they tried and didn't work. And that's an important part of the problem-solving process. It was helpful for us to know what puddles to not step into because it's like, oh shit man he's explaining an idea that they tried that that we have the same idea maybe we will go in a different direction now and then there was some stuff that he had you know there was a rule related to the uh the left out lane drain that was not in the they didn't get around to making it into the the base game that they made all those years ago but he had a rule idea that kind of overlapped really well with the rule concept that lyman and i were taking him through and it was like oh shit it was kind of interesting for us to come to the same conclusion of where that story was going. So, again, he was another resource. I appreciate the time that, you know, he took to sit and chat with us on Zoom, just kind of pick his brain for as much as he was willing to get up. He got $5, too, right? Yeah. Is he involved in gaming anymore? It seems I looked up his LinkedIn profile, and it sounds like that's kind of in his past. Yeah. I think it's rare, man. You think about the team that did this. You know, it was half of Lyman's life ago, And it was like all these guys that were in their 20s and 30s back then. And more people than not have moved beyond pinball since then. So he still has a cactus. He does, which is awesome. It was cool. So when you guys explored what was already done, and I'm sure that you guys have had a lot of knowledge on that playing the game over the years, what areas did you find that you felt needed improvement in the basic code? And what were your major goals for making this game software even better? Oh, I think, again, to what Josh was saying about solving the puzzle, I think when you look at the playfields, and this is why I like the hand-drawn art with instructions or kind of like the story kind of laid out on a playfield versus, you know, just a bunch of Photoshopped images of like a license or whatever is, like you get, you have a chance to draw the player in, you know, with art, and then they can look at the playfield and you can try to tell the different stories. and all of those are out on the playfield. I think just to talk about one thing, all the saved poly items on the playfield. So in the original game, they have this train and there's on the ramp in the middle, the center ramp, there's a story about the hero getting on the train and saving poly from the train. And then in the game, though, there's on the right ramp, there's kind of like a bank story. There's a bank robbery and you have to save poly from the bank robbers. and then on the left ramp there's a river and a waterfall, and the hero's trying to save Polly. Like, Boss Bart has Polly, and he's trying to save her from the waterfall. And in the original game, if you build up those shots, it doesn't matter if it's the middle train shot, if you build up the right shot or the left shot and you finish it, it kind of starts this save Polly from the train thing. And I'm like, well, how do I get from telling this story about saving Polly from bank robbers to like Polly's tied on the tracks and I have to save her from the train or the waterfall story on the left ramp and so that part of the puzzle is like really easy to figure out it's like and every single time I think when we kind of look at the game and after doing all of the research as to where everybody wanted to go with it and then studying it and looking at it and kind of laying out a roadmap of where we want to go with the game is to kind of look at those things. And yeah, after about four or five times, I'm like, the answer is always they didn't have time to finish the game. So the obvious thing is like, once you get to that third part of the bank story, it shouldn't be about rescuing Polly from the train tracks. Or if you get to the third part of that waterfall story where Bart has Polly in a canoe on a river and the hero is riding on a horse with a lasso, okay once you make that third shot it should have like why is she tied how did she get on the train tracks like that doesn't make any sense to me at all so that's I guess that's I could probably just leave it at that and like I said I think a lot of people look at the art on the game and they look at the stories that are trying to be told throughout the game they'll get it I mean I think I know it's always the case where if if you give 10 more people a half-finished cactus canyon you'll get 10 different outcomes, but there are a lot of clues in the work that was done that I think a lot of reasonable people would probably come to the same conclusions about kind of what to do with, you know, with the game. Some things are easier than others. Obviously, the Polly one is the simplest example of something that I could come up with without, you know, trying to give too much away of, you know, the rest of the work. I can give away one other thing, which I think is really important to us. I think outside of the storytelling, I think there was also trying to match, not to get, like, to score, you know, Lyman and I are both tournament players, so we, you know, we do focus a lot on score balancing. And to us, making sure the coolest things in the game are worthy points-wise for what's in the game, there was a lot of that balancing going on as well. Like, someone was already in the game to start with that, like, man, this isn't worth shit. But it's like a team really did a great, they created a great experience, you know, a great Williams 90 experience. I'm used to hearing somebody at a tournament come to me and yell at me that this isn't worth shit. I actually have talked to Joe Lemire, Lyman, and he was telling me that he used to text you all the time with stuff like that. Like, you know, just saying, hey, this score exploit sucks and you got to change this. Absolutely. That's why I buy a game and I try to get all of those things cleaned up. It's certainly a lot easier to do on a game, say, like Tron or Iron Man than it is to do on a game like Batman or Elvira. But that's the job if you sign up for it. Is there a perfect answer? Sometimes, usually not. But is there an answer that's better than this thing isn't worth anything and it sucks? Well, yeah. And then that's the job that you sign up for and that's the job that you have to do. So I welcome it in a lot of ways because I want to try to make the best product. And like I say, it's a big job right now and it's a lot of hours and it's not for everybody. But I love the challenge of it. and that's why I probably keep coming back for more, is that it never gets boring. I mean, pinball development just never gets boring. There are a lot of disciplines involved. There are a lot of people that you have to figure out to try to, how do I get the best work out of this person? And you have to learn a little bit about people and try to, you know, and manufacturing is hard. It's, I don't know. I mean, every single day there's a new challenge and it never gets boring. That's what it is. Well, I mean, you guys are both major tournament players. So I know, Lyman, you've been the pop-up world pinball champion more than once. And Josh, you're the president of the whole freaking competitive pinball scene. So, you know, when you were going through this game, were you looking at score exploits? Like, I haven't put a ton of time in the game, but in preparation for the interview, I was reading over the rules and Keith Elwin's tip sheet that he made years ago on strategies. and his suggestion for blowing up the game was to combine showdown multiball with gold mine multiball, and then you just keep shooting down the four showdown targets. Not anymore, Christian. That's what I'm asking. You fixed that exploit then, I guess. Yeah. I'd like to have the Kaylee George, Keith Hellman, original Cactus Canyon showdown where Keith plays out. This is kind of like the debate about shadow, and I always like the two-way combo, and some people like, you know. Go to Kaylee. Kaylee. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Kaylee can play multipliers all day, and Keith can play, I'm going to stack gold mine and showdown. But I think Keith would probably win that one. Well, Keith also said that another way to cheat is to kind of nudge the game while the ball is in the shooter lane to trigger a free hit on Bart. You guys going to fix that too? I think that Bart, oh, I see what you're saying. You're pissing off a lot of players. I know, I know. Sorry, guys. Yeah, believe me, the best players, like, you know, they'll play X-Flight Pinball, but I think deep down, like, they don't want to. They'd rather have a balanced game that provides, you know, a challenge of the mind as well as instead of just, you know, a chopping wood experience of, like, I can turn my brain off because I know I'm just doing this one thing over and over again. There is always that human element of, like, I want to be the cool guy who has the secret, and then I'm going to put it out into the world and I'm going to be cool. So, you know, I see like a lot of, yeah, I mean, people pick these games apart, you know, like they're hacking a website. And I think it's awesome. You know, I think it's great because it makes us better if you're willing to listen and make it better. So, yeah. Well, one of the most interesting things about the history of Cactus Canyon is that there were a lot of unused features on the original game's ROM, like unused sound and D&D files. They didn't make it into the game for a number of reasons, but I would guess primarily because of the time constraints. How much of that is out there, and did you dive into any of those files? I think it's mostly, again, when I start to question why something was done in the original game a certain way, I would, again, I would always end up at the same point. Like, they didn't have enough time, and they didn't allow the design team to finish the game the way they wanted to. And Matt Correale had said in the past that he had something like two weeks to get his code finished for this game. I mean, if you were given two weeks to finish code, would you just quit on the spot? No, I don't. What I do is I have two weeks of hell and sleepless nights. The way I get through it is I look at the end and what the game is going to be like at the end and say, if I can just get here, I know everybody is going to be, okay, not everybody, but the majority of the people are going to be happy with the game. And then there's that, that like, hey, we have to ship the game. You have two weeks left. You're not done. You got to do a stream with this guy. You got to go talk to this guy. I'm like, how much more stuff are you going to put on me? Right. So, and yeah, it is crunch time. You know, it goes back many, many, many years. But yeah, at the time at Williams, you know, Cactus Canyon was kind of like a studio title. You know, it was like, we don't really care about this. This is just like the side thing, whatever. And Pinball 2000 was, you know, like the quote, future of the company. And so I wasn't paying much attention at the time, but I could certainly see a scenario where that game did not receive the resources that it needed to be finished properly. right you were working on revenge from mars i would imagine when they were working on cactus did you did you get consulted at any point to help out with the code no actually the only kind of heads up i guess i mean i went literally straight from finishing monster dash it took four days off it took like thursday friday saturday sunday and then it was like your lead programmer on revenge from mars and i think like right away i got i got dwight and larry talked to me about Keith P. Johnson, who was working in the slot division at that point. And he was like, hey, I think this guy is going to be great. You know, we work with him on Revenge for Mars. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Let's do it. And eventually, Graham West, who was working on graphics, sort of low level, high level with the MediaGX board. Once he got all of the graphics kind of pipeline squared away, he started to do game development on Revenge. And the only kind of, I think, input anybody really had at the time was when everybody was trying to decide what that filler game was going to be after Monster Bash, but before Revenge for Mars. And there was a presentation done by three different people. So there was Matt and Tom that did a presentation for Cactus Canyon. there was Scott Sloviani who did a presentation for a game that I think at the time he called Runaway Train, which had kind of like the track on NASCAR, Pat's NASCAR game, like the kind of upside ball accelerator track. Yeah, that was pretty cool. It would have been interesting to see that game come to completion because I think Scott did dot animations at Valley Williams at the time and went on to do other things. but he's a very creative light game guy so I think that would have turned out pretty well and then Mark Wayna did a presentation for a Godzilla game for Playfield and Godzilla Monster and so eventually I think you know management is like they look at it and they need to that's how this all works is that you have business guys doing business things and you have creative guys doing creative things and then like they're just like the Red Sox Yankees you know They're like, you know, they both fight passionately for what they want, and that's how it all works. So, you know, I think management kind of looked at it as like, wow, like what's the team who's going to be able to get this thing done? And they looked at, well, we've got a programmer. Scott is like, okay, he's a thought guy. Mark Wayden, he like kind of helped Dennis out a little bit and whatever else. And he really did a lot to help, you know, get Scared Stiff like kind of finished up into good shape after Dennis was laid off in 1996. I think they just took it as a business decision, like, hey, these are the guys who are going to get this thing done. It's kind of a filler game. We kind of don't really care about it, so cactus it is, I think, is probably, you know, the approach that the business guys took, like, as far as choosing which of those three things. And for me, you know, I think it was probably creatively also the best decision because for me mostly what I want out of a pinball machine is to be entertained and I love the humor and just being able to like kind of get lost in the story I guess like when I go play pinball machine you know I don't want to save the world you know I probably just save the world every day at work you know and I just want to like relax and have fun and humor I think I think this is a big thing, part of what helps people have fun playing games. You know, like working with Greg on Elvira and Tim Kistro doing the voices. Like, I love the humor in the game, and that's like the enjoyment I get out of it. So in a weird sense, it's kind of like the best decision was made on both ends. And for me to have the, I know it's an unlicensed game, and people, you know, licenses don't work. Well, you know, go tell that to Doug, okay, who just made Medievil's Out of Tax and Monster Bashes in quantities larger than some other licensed games. Remix games that have already been out there that I love the fact that you can walk up to the game and instantly know what it's about. You don't have to try not to comment too much on other stuff. Like, I don't need to read a book about what this game is about. Like, I just instantly get it, And that's a big part of successful game design is something that people are familiar with and can recognize, like they're drawn to it. And then after that, the humor in the game. It's just a huge part of the entertainment value that, I mean, at least for me, and I think everybody else, people want to have fun and relax and laugh and be entertained. That's what pinball machines should be. If you're relatively new to the hobby, it's easy to take for granted how frequent code updates can happen, how easily you can download them over the Internet on the day that they're released. But when Cactus Canyon first came out, there were no updates. So as far as getting the code complete, did you ever have to leave things on the table? Was it more frustrating back then knowing that you didn't get a second chance to go back? And as far as it's probably much more liberating now, knowing that you can add things, you can tweak things, You can go back and fix things how much more frustrating was it back then or was it not because that was just what you were used to Well I think it really just a result of the way game development was done back then versus the way game development is done today, I should say, just from the business aspect of what the product is. Back in the 90s, we made a coin-op product, and we would put it, you know, at least at Williams, we'd put it at the bottom of the stairs this was like this area where employees would play the game, and you pretty much knew within the first week, like if just from everybody there, if the games had played, and some people, you had to drag them off the game. You pretty much knew right away, like, this game's going to do great, or it's not going to do great, or whatever. And so there's a couple weeks of testing the game at the bottom of the stairs, and then we would build, actually before that, We would build 14 prototypes and send them out to Europe and put them out on tests around Chicago. And then after about a month of tests on location, taking audits, tweaking features, adding more stuff to the game, the company would do a sample run of a couple hundred games and get them out into distribution and then get feedback from distributors, you know, this is breaking, this isn't working, this is great, whatever it happens to be. And then the game would come out. So there was this sort of, in the coin updates, there was this kind of like baked in two month, here's your end user product iteration cycle that we got to kind of, you know, build into the product and then send out. The beta testers. Yeah, exactly. And right now it's like, I mean, at least for the stuff that I've worked on, like who beta tested Batman? I did for the most part. You know, who beta tested Elvira? There wasn't even an Elvira over out in Stern Arcade, you know, for anybody to play to get any feedback. I had to demand that the game be sent to Greg during the pandemic and everything so that, you know, he could play it. Because it's a huge part of game development to be able to get feedback and iterate. And I think where we are right now, where just as a marketing bang that companies do now, they sort of say like, yeah, we have this game and there's Steam and here's, you know, kind of what's in it to kind of give you an idea. we'll do a stream of a gay player whatever and the game just kind of goes out there where is that couple months of feedback and iteration on a product that you're trying to sell to people getting them to make an emotional decision where they don't really have you know there's the knee jerk reaction and then there's like the okay i'm gonna sit and think and be reasonable and consolidate information or whatever, and then make a logical conclusion. It's like, Stern and GJP, they're just like, here's a teaser trailer, here's this cool title, and then imagine in your head, like, how cool it's going to be or whatever, and then, boom, here you go. You know, here it is. And where is all of the testing? So it happens inside the company and with beta testers and everybody else, and, you know, just to say thanks to and you know who you are, to just kind of say thanks to the people in the past who have done that. There are some people who have done beta testing for Stern, and for me specifically. They do it on other games too, but to just say thanks for that because that is the other part of the job as a game developer, a designer, a programmer, is I have to do all of that work, the score balancing, the play testing to make sure things are fun, to make sure, you know, scores aren't, you know, crazy or whatever else. You know, it's just another thing that we have to take time out to do. For me, because Josh, too, as a tournament player, like, I mean, I started as just somebody who loved playing pinball. So it's not work for me. The only work that it really is is that it takes time out of the other things that I have to do as an engineer, you know, to work in. Because it's an important part of the process. Yeah, you know, it makes sense. and it is interesting how times have changed and you know you're now with the internet and everyone clamoring to know what the next latest greatest is you know it's very difficult to just throw a game on location to test it so things have definitely you can't I mean you can't really unless it's completely done I mean you could get to and as hard as we try but I mean seriously you know don't put a Sharky's shootout you know next to whatever you know anything that stirs up the last four years with the color LCD and you could just kind of see, I mean, put all three models next to the Sharky Shootout. You know, put your pro, your 3D on your alley, put a topper on it, you know, just see that and the amount of work that's involved where it was and where it is today. So, and all of that, somebody has to be, you know, responsible for it. I think to have a game tester to help out with that stuff, but really to get a good feel for it, you have to kind of, I feel like you have to, you have to kind of do it yourself. And that's where Keith is really great. When he's finishing his play field, like my play field's done or whatever, it's like he doesn't have that burden of software engineering to do that, you know, you're going to, you know, it's 12 hours a day, six days a week for the next eight months to finish the game. He gets to play it again and iterate with the programmer to be, you know, and for me, I think I've really been, for me specifically, I've really been missing that on these games. You know, like Walking Dead, I spent whatever the last six months in my basement finishing the game by myself. And I think, you know, Church played Batman a little bit, probably not too much. And then really Elvira is mostly just, you know, myself. Greg, towards the end, played it a little bit. And again, that's why for me, having Josh on the project is huge because, you know, we get to be the game testers and we get to be the, you know, the people who iterate on the game and have a discussion. Right. And I think for me, like, that was the big thing that's been missing, you know, in the last, I'll say, what was it, 2015? I don't know. Yeah, probably like that. Well, that's cool. Let's talk about what you guys have done together in terms of adding to the code as much as you can tell us. And maybe jump back a little bit towards where we were talking about the unused files. I saw that one of the things that was in Continued is the instruction card for the game that mentions a villain named Bionic Bart, who didn't actually make it into the finished version. And there were audio and DMD files for him. Did you incorporate those? We can say yes to that. I feel okay, sir. All right. All right. All right. Yeah. How about, so in the test menu, there was something. I can take any bullets of things that I maybe shouldn't have said. I'll take that bullet if I should. I, you know, I'm always, and this is why, you know, you say like you can't confirm or deny. That should just be like, you know, like if I hit myself in the leg, just pop that out of my mouth instead of a long period of silence. That's right. Yeah, yeah. If you don't say anything, say, no, it's not that. Okay, now I know I have information. I know it's not. And then there's silence. I can't really tell. Oh, that means there's probably something there. You realize when you deny, denying is the same as confirming with respect to what you're saying. That would be a good part of my dad. Zach would love it. There was also information in the test menu about saloon doors, suggesting that they were at one time meant to be a possible mech on the play field. Now, I know you guys don't want to speak about mechanical upgrades necessarily on the remake, but I assume you have to add code to new features like that. Is there any scoop on that? Cannot confirm or deny any of our changes. I'm going to run out of fives. Yeah, that was not even a hesitation. You know, no long pause for that. Yeah, I think the original on the game, it's just, you know, they tried something out, and there are probably pictures of it somewhere. There are, like, these two kind of little, it kind of reminded me of, like, the mouth on Predator, where, like, this looks like kind of opened up. there were these two kind of, you know, it was almost like they were in the shape of two stand-up targets that kind of blocked the entrance to the saloon. And then when you hit them, they registered as a switch, and then they kind of opened up so you could get access to shoot the ball at Bart and stuff. And again, like, and this is always the safe thing to do, and this is why, as a developer, I always start with, like, you know, it's probably easier to take something out if you know it, like, either, A, it doesn't work, or it isn't reliable, or whatever it happens to be, or it's not fun. Just take it out. Like, don't, you know, don't leave it in the game. So I think originally the design team, you know, they tried something and it didn't work. So they took it out. It's certainly much better than having something that either breaks all the time or is no fun or doesn't work, you know, in the game. So, yeah. Yeah, I think they also, in talking to, I think it was talking to Matt, but they had, you know, much grander plans for the train assembly that was going to be locking balls and shit up there. That's cool. So, you know, being able to hear the stories of, like, what they tried, how they tried it, and ultimately why. You know, the center ramp, I think Tom Capera talked to him about that on one of his podcasts, where it was a ramp that could go to the left or the right. You know, these guys try a lot of things, and sometimes the stuff you want to work just doesn't work. Right. How about from a programming side? You know, things that were missing from the game that were common in that era of games, like a video mode or a match sequence. Have you guys thought at all about incorporating those? Sure. I mean, I think if the game were released with that, so that match sequence is like, you know, is like Apple library match, whatever routine that every game gets, and it's up to, you know, the programmer to make a real one. And I mean, I don't know. How would you think if Cactus got released with that match sequence? What would you think? You think the game's probably still not done? I don't know. Wet fart. Wet fart. From a video mode standpoint, I mean, it just seems like a perfect game for it, right? I mean, you have like a T2 or, you know, an Indiana Jones Williams where you're kind of shooting, you know, in a Western theme. It just seems like a perfect opportunity for that sort of video mode. Are you guys... Can you confirm or deny the video mode that may or may not be? for me I mean just this is just me like I'm here for pinball so if I I mean this is just me if I want to play you know if I play t2 any amount okay whatever I know like early in the 90s like pinball earned like really well back in the early 90s you know uh games like uh Adam's Family earned huge um I know like Steve Epstein when he had Broadway Arcade his attack in Medieval were doing $600 a week. And, you know, when Medieval went to the coast out in Seattle, $700 a week for a pinball machine. You know, that back then cost like $3,100, $3,200 to an operator who bought a lot of equipment. And the problem was that video games back then were making like $8,000, $9,000 a week. You know, like Steve would get Mortal Kombat 2 and, wow, this thing did like $1,400 in the first week. Or, you know, Killer Instinct. games just like i mean it was insane how much money video games were making in arcades back then and then so pinball was kind of like well you know everybody thinks like they have to solve the problem with pinball it's like no you don't you just have to make a good solid pinball game and then you know it's kind of like guttley caveman and granny of the gators and farcon and all this other crap that never worked uh you know back in the early 80s it's like well how can we make pinball appeal to video game players. I was like, no. People who want to play Mortal Kombat are going to play Mortal Kombat. When you put video games into pinball, it's kind of like if you can't beat them, join them kind of thing. For me, I'm there for the pinball experience. Video games like I know Brian put a video mode into Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness. Monster Bash didn't have one because Brian didn't work on that game. I, you know, George didn't feel, I guess, like, if you have an idea for a video mode, the thing is, like, it has to be really good. You know, don't put a bad video game, a video mode in your game that it's just like this thing that attracts people. I mean, not to say that the one that the story guys put in Star Wars is a bad one. But when you're in an environment where there's so many people who are new to pinball and you have this video mode, like I watch people at shows play Star Wars and they get the video mode. They don't even know they're playing the video mode. They're just like looking at the ball in the hole, going like, why is the ball kicking out? The game's broken, this and that. So, I mean, I don't know. It's a pinball machine. There's a lot of pressure these days to make deeper and deeper rule sets to satisfy the home buyer who is going to put a lot of time in on these games. Was your focus always to just add the assets that didn't make it into the original version of the game? or did you ever talk about making the game even deeper by adding things the original team didn't talk about? I'll take a little bit of this. Like, I think people talk about that, and I think, you know, seeing what CGC has done with the three remake games that they've made already, like, there is still a strong and healthy market for that, you know, if you refer to it as the coin-op pinball experience. Like, I think taking that experience as the core entertainment experience and maybe sprinkling in some higher-level challenging things that maybe some of the games back then didn't have. I think there's a sweet spot there that doesn't necessarily beg a developer to make something that is, you know, four score and seven years ago and yada, yada, yada, and I need to go on Pinside to download a rule set to understand how to hit the start button. Like, I just don't think pinball necessarily has to go in that direction to be something that can be satisfying to even a core, you know, pinball enthusiast kind of audience, let alone that broader demographic, more casual of a player. I just, I don't believe that like deeper is better for sure. I would agree with that too. And I also think like there are three models, you know, there's pro, premium, LE. I think early on, you know, when Dave came into the company and his group of people really started to focus on providing different products for different segments of the market and that's worked out great you're talking about stern right now yeah absolutely is that is that as far as software goes again the job's really hard we have a job where so the play field has been the same size forever practically the software has just grown and grown and grown and grown and there's that thing you talk about it, Josh, it's like, just because you can doesn't mean you should. And so there is definitely, you're trying to make, so there are different models physically for different people, but there's still like, like one base of software and it's huge. And so trying to get, you know, for the game, the balance between making it understandable for a like person who is new to pinball versus somebody who is a tournament level player who maybe not plays these games because they really want to but because they're a tournament player and they have to dissect them and no strategy and rules and whatever because they have to because you know there's some tournament they want to play in and win or whatever trying to get that balance you want to appeal to the widest possible audience and and the audience is is is pretty big right now And, but I also think that things have kind of come full circle, you know, where when I started in the 90s, we made coin-op games that were pretty much a three-minute, very intense experience. And the machines were designed to make money. I sort of feel like we're almost back to that again, where there's so many people who are new to pinball. I mean, you say like, yeah, we have to put all of that stuff in for whatever. But then what about the person who like buys a game and they sell it and it's got 86 plays on it? Like, have they really dug into the game at that level? But I think simple is always better, but it's definitely a challenge to appeal to the widest possible audience. That makes sense. It's a balance for sure. So what else can you guys, before we move on to other stuff, I know you have some limitations as to what you can talk about in the code that you guys are working on, but what else can you tell us about what you're doing with enhancing the code or what you want to add to it or anything else we haven't covered that you can speak to? I think overall, ideally, we want to get the game to a spot where, and understand that, you know, CGC has made enhancements to games that they've done in the past. You know, lighting, toppers, all those kinds of things. As far as Cactus goes, with the software specifically, where we really want to be is we're in a world where the design team from 1998 were able to have the time and the resources to finish the game. and CGC were just remaking it without building a new OS to add new things or whatever else, and that it really were a remake. So I don't know if I said that in the most clear way as possible, but basically to finish the game as the original design team would have finished it. The good news is everybody will be able to speak Lime and Ease at the end of this interview. How far into the process are you guys? Like, do you have all your ideas down on paper and you just need to code them? Are you still actively brainstorming or are you all done? Well, originally, again, there was a lot of like kind of research up front, talk to people, go over design documents, a lot of non-design work actually up front. And then there was like kind of like, okay, like we know some things. Yeah, I mean, I'll just give a scoring example. Like, you know, Goldmine Multiball. I make a jackpot and go my monthly ball and it's $500,000. Why is my mother load $250,000? Like there's some things that just, you know, you kind of go, yeah, this has been nagging us for 25 years or whatever it is. There's some stuff that just comes right out of your head, like we got to fix this or whatever. And then early on, Josh and I worked on a document that kind of detailed out all of the things that we were going to fix and add. and just kind of a roadmap to where we want it to get. And that was done months ago. And I don't know, you could probably pick it up from here, Josh. Yeah, I mean, I think it's been something that the CGC team has been on for a very long time. I don't know, in terms of, you know, done, I think we have a roadmap of how, you know, we see this thing finishing. But, you know, to what Lyman spoke to before, you know, we play the crap out of this thing and we have run into situations where, you know, some original ideas got thrown in the garbage. You know, we had a combo rule that was stepping on something, and all of a sudden you realize something that was good on paper that we were all excited about, and it's like, oh, this isn't going to work. And so it's like, all right, let's throw that out and start again. Or, you know, even now, just playing the different features and a lot of score balancing of like, hey, man, I think this is too heavy. I think this is too light. There's a lot of that. I think I talked with Lyman about it and referred to it as like making soup, where it's like, I think it needs a little bit more salt. Oh, God, fuck, man, too much salt, too much salt. It was salt. A little bit more pepper. And all of a sudden, it's just like, you just keep adding and stirring and tasting and adding and stirring and tasting until, you know, both him and I are confident that it tastes pretty good. And I feel like that part of the process is going to be until the very end. You know, I think both of us are skeptical enough to be challenging ourselves consistently of like, is this the best cactus that we can do? Knowing that, you know, any other group of two people would probably have, you know, a lot of the stuff is what other people would also lean to, but a lot of the stuff that is not, you know, other people would come up with wild and crazy ideas, you know, left and right. So our focus is on executing what we think, you know, not to be too long winded, but I think Lyman, you had this analogy to me early on talking about, you know, game design, especially on the software side. It's like we know we're driving from Chicago to Columbus, Ohio, and it's 300 miles. It may just take us 1,800 miles to get there. Right. Sometimes. Yeah. You just never know. It's like not necessarily the straight shot on 70 East, unfortunately. Right. Yeah. There are some things that just like come right out, and it's like, boom, bang, done. And then there are some other things that, and again, it's probably easier, easier, with a blank piece of paper. You know, for me, it's like, make it cool. If it's not cool, get rid of it. And then, you know, we're like, here's the play field, and here's what's written on the play field, and here's what we're doing. And some things go, bam, done. And other things are like, okay, that was a little bit of work. And some other things are like, well, okay, um, we've tried a couple times on this one, let's try it again. And that's just how game design But for me, and I guess also with Josh, and that's what's been fun about us working together, is that we're both very excited and willing to do the work the third time, the fourth time, the fifth time. I don't think we're past five yet, so we're in pretty good shape. So, but yeah, I mean, I don't, I think like in the past working, you know, with some people, some people are, you know, they're like, well, I tried a couple of times and if you don't like it, don't do that. Like that, that's not an acceptable way to go about this. Yeah. So you guys are clearly going to work on this until you, you feel like it's, it's where you want it to be. Can you give us, you know, any sort of estimate on when you think your code update will be released? It's ready when it's ready. It's ready when it's ready. As my boss, Gene Jarvis, says, it's ready when it's ready. But, you know, we understand that, you know, Doug and his team certainly have a timetable that it's not a pressure-free zone where it's summer camp for us. There is pressure from CGC for us to get what we're doing completed. So I think, you know, we're of the mindset where we're not going to let Doug down. But we also, you know, it's important for both Lyman and myself, we want this game in our basement forever, right? And both of us have a large collection of games, and we want to make sure that this is something we're proud to have in our collection. I also think if pinball history has taught us anything, setting deadlines in pinball is usually not a good idea. It is and it isn't. It is good to have deadlines or else you'll just play and tinker forever. I think it is important to have, you know, milestones and deadlines just to be chasing. You need the pressure of a deadline to get things going. Because, yeah, like Josh says, otherwise, I don't know. Then you need pressure. Announcing publicly is probably not a good idea. Maybe internally you have a deadline. There you go. Because people will hold it to you. They'll hold you to it. Well, they just have to be realistic. That, I think, is the biggest thing about deadlines. Is it realistic? I think what we're doing will definitely be out before the end of 2022. Definitely. Okay. Okay. All right. It's like Franchi talking about all the art packages that he's working on that would be out before the end of 2021. How's that looking, Chris? I never said 21. I always said 22. I said I have three games in 22. Good luck. I'm excited to see the next Christopher Franchi art package. Well, you know. I'm a big fan. I did do art for this game, for Cactus Canyon. I did some work. I can't confirm or deny that. I did some work on the topper. I did the art blades. I did some new stuff that, you know, as Lyman was talking about earlier, some things weren't quite explained visually, and now hopefully they will be a little bit better. So, you know, I mean, it's not like an art package by John Yowski and Christopher Franchi. You know, I just did uncredited, you know, little things here and there. So, in a sense, there will be one game with my touch on it coming out soon enough. But anyway. When your updated version is released, do you guys feel like the enhancements on the original code will be finished? Or are you guys planning on putting out more updates for the base game in the future as time rolls on? I think it's pencils down, we're done when we're done. Yeah, as pencils down as pencils down is, I would just say for me, I kind of have a history going back to working as a lead only game programmer at Valley Williams that, I mean, that's the problem with software. Is it ever really done? As far as game design, you could certainly be pencils down. And when the update comes out, as far as design goes, it's pencils down. But there is that kind of, if something comes up, like, yeah, you know, we played it 500 times. And 500 times between Josh and I is a hell of a lot more time than 500 times, you know, with some other people. But, yeah, I mean, if something comes up, we're here to address them and fix those issues. I mean, if by chance there is a scoring issue or... If Kaylee finds something. You're going to write that out. I wish I could do art updates like you guys do code updates. It's like, you know, all right, I didn't have a lot of time on Batman, so here's some new backbox sides. Have at it, guys. It could be a business back, Brad. It could be a business. Right? I mean, couldn't you? Yeah, I'll do a big one. Why couldn't you? Why couldn't I? I don't know. Talk to the boys at Stern. They usually say everything has to be approved, and that's a pain in the ass. Yeah, the licensing stuff, absolutely. Yeah. Licensing is just a completely different world. There are rules. Yeah. But speaking of fun artwork, you know, CDC is well known for their incredible toppers. And this one's got a really cool one, and it's got a really nice background because I did it. I'm not taking any credit for your artwork, by the way, because I did this artwork in John's style, you know, so that it would match. So you probably wouldn't even know what I did on this game because I did, you know, it's not my thing. It looks like it's all John, which, you know, fair enough. It should be that way. That's part of the challenge that Josh and I had making the game and everybody else on the game. So thank you for that. Sure. So, anyway, yeah, CGC is definitely known for their incredible toppers, and this one has a really cool one. Were you guys involved in coding for the topper integration? And can you tell us how it works with the game? I can't confirm or deny. You guys can tell me. Like, what has Ryan said that there is a topper, but there hasn't been? I don't, I mean, so let's just play Dom and whatever else. Like, what are the games that CGC has done? Because I can't confirm it tonight, but what are the games that CGC has done in the past? Have they had toppers? So, they have all had toppers, and they've been integrated into the game in certain ways. So, Attack from Mars, you've got your alien, he's shaking, you've got the light shows coordinated a little bit on Monster Bash, so I'm assuming there's something coming, and I guess you guys would be the ones to do it if it wasn't already done by the CGC team. Okay. Yeah. I can't confirm it. Yeah. Yeah. When I say that, I say it trying to be polite. That's right. Yeah, there's some things that come out of the conversation, and it's just like, or it's just not time to talk about it yet. I fucked up. I cannot confirm nor deny the fact that I had anything to do with any artwork on any sort of topic. Now you're getting it, Chris. The other line you could use, Chris, is like right now is not the time that I'm able to talk about it. That's the other line. Thank you. All right, gentlemen. So I'm sure this is going to be a confirm or deny, but let's talk pricing. So I'm assuming that the code that you guys are working on is not going to be a free update. Maybe you can speak to that. Is this something that, you know, is going to be given to everybody gratis once the game is out? That's a question for Ryan and the CGC team. Yeah, I think it's really, you know, that's a business question. You know, we're here for the game development aspect of things, and that's a business decision. I mean, I'm a programmer. Fair enough. Next. What can you tell us about... You can probably answer this one. Man, that ruins questions 34 through 41. I know. It's so many good questions about pricing and business strategy. What can you tell us about how the software updates are going to be installed? Is this going to be the Internet thing, or are we downloading code onto a USB drive? I think, well, when they did the color update for Medieval, I think, because I got it in my medieval, and the kit included a new flash drive that went into the game, I believe. I think that's how they did it. So that's how they did it in the past. I don't know what their plans are this time around, but that certainly has been my, as a customer of CGC's, experience in the past. Okay. And also for me, I'm focused on game development, not so much UOS. Right. Yeah. Josh and I, our involvement is for the game development, the game design. So that's kind of also like kind of like a CGC technical question that if we, you know, just like kind of spoke out a line about it, probably we'd get something wrong or whatever. I get a text from Ryan or from Doug like, what are you guys saying? Well, they don't listen to this show. Well, Lyman, you know, speaking of that, because you didn't play a part in the creation of the original code for Cactus Canyon, How did you like him into a game that already had a good chunk of the code written versus starting a game from the ground up? Was it harder or easier for you? It's a little harder, I think. That's what she said. It's always, as a developer, this is just, you know, this is just as a developer. You know, you go into something and you go, I need to rewrite that. What does it really mean? You know, when you tell somebody, I want to rewrite something. Well, what it means is, like, it'll take me two hours to dig into this thing and figure out how it works. and then I want to add this or change this or whatever, whereas if I just threw it all away and implemented what I want, then maybe it's a little more flexible. It might take, like, 45 minutes or an hour. So it's definitely a challenge, and I think, like, and I'm going off into the weeds about, you know, my career as a software developer is, like, I just don't know if I would have been. When I got into software development, I was, like, you know, have a degree in computer science and some work postgraduate in computer science before doing pinball. It's like computer science when PCs first came out and it was still like an industry home computing and doing, you know, games that went into arcades and stuff. It was like that business and that whole thing was still in its infancy. And now, you know, I kind of feel bad for people, you know, who may be going to get a job in some industry where, like, say, at Cisco, like, I couldn't imagine what router code looks like at this point, you know, from how many bits of legacy things people are trying to support and whatever else. I mean, it just seemed like wherever you go today, it's almost kind of like, well, you're just going to be faced with this massive code base that you have to, like, dig in and figure out. But being familiar with kind of the structure, because pinball development has kind of been kind of the same since, I mean, even all the way back to, say, Solid State. It's all very familiar and similar. So it hasn't been that difficult. And then obviously I think it a little easier for me as a developer to just go in and make things the way I used to making things versus like dig into something kind of figure out like how it works and then make sure everything gets integrated in correctly and efficiently so now when you tackling a job like this see like a lot of people have asked me like you know would you ever consider doing like a you know a remake back glass or this or that and i always say out of respect for the original artist i wouldn't do that unless there was some way i could truly convey i didn't do this because i felt i could do it better i did it because i just wanted to do it. I love the property or whatever. And that's always difficult to, you know, we're supposed to put a big sticker on it. I didn't do this because I thought I was better. You know, so when you're attacking this code, are you going balls out like, I'm going to do this the way I think it should be done without any consideration for, you know, the people who came before that put it together? Or are you trying to be respectful? That was the challenge. A lot of the work was done already. Yeah, where do you draw the line? I always try to be respectful. So I just, you know, maybe that's, well, that's another conversation. But I always try to be, and again, I think it's how Josh and I approach this project is, is that imagine the game was finished in 1998 and CGC just did an emulated version of a finished game. And we were just trying to get it to the finish line, you know, as far as that design goes. But when I came into the project, software-wise, there is a ton of work already done. And then again, it falls into the kind of, I need to be respectful of the work that's been done. Because A, it's decent work. And B, it's like, I don't know, I get, how do I say this without, see, there's always like 50 paths you have to go down to try to say something and not. So I always try to be respectful of people and work and everything else. And so the same holds with the software. It makes sense. So, Josh, because you get brought into a lot of companies who look over their games and suggest things to rule sets or gameplay before they're released, was this a similar process for you? Or were you way more involved in this game than you've been in the past for other consultant jobs? It's certainly, you know, and probably a lot of it speaks to the fact that, like, Lyman and I are friends outside of this relationship that we have on this project. But, you know, I try not to push myself on the project. So I will help as much as, you know, the team that is working on it is willing to. Lyman has certainly taken me up on that offer far more than a lot of the other guys have. But I still see it as an extension of what I do. I mean, you know, my favorite trips over to Stern was to go hang out pre-COVID, but to be able to go and sit with Dwight. And we'd have conversations and arguments about stuff he did or didn't do and stuff that I think he should have done. And, like, I love that. I love and miss the conversations that we've had, you know, over the last, whatever, 15 years doing it. I don't know. It's definitely more of an intense experience with Cactus, but that's only because, you know, Lyman leans on me for my feedback, which I appreciate. So I'm an open-ended resource. Let's put it that way. And I've yet to be broken. So I tell the other manufacturers, you know, try me. And to that point, I mean, do you feel like there's more that you would want to offer? I mean, there's some rumors that CGC is jumping into original games. There's, you know, every other company out there is obviously working on new games. Would you ever want to be the primary guy on game design or some other aspect of a game creation from the start, from the very origin of the project? I don't know. I mean, I joke with Lyman. And I enjoy getting to do all the fun stuff. So the idea of, like, I joke with my COO at work who, after a long day of working on video games, he goes home and he makes music. That's, like, his hobby. It's sort of like Scott's, you know, he's into music. He has his own songs on Spotify that he's done, and that's his outlet. Like, my outlet is, like, pinball rules. I'm, like, the biggest freaking nerd, you know, when it comes to pinball rules. So, like, you know, what did Big Buck Hunter, when Stern did that for us, like, I had heard that that was happening. And I went to Eugene and was like, hey, over the weekend I wrote this design document for the rules of a Buck Hunter game. And he's just like, what the fuck is the matter with you? And it's like, I don't know, man. I just, I love it. This is like my, you know, strumming a guitar at night. This is the stuff I think about. So, you know, I have certainly, I wrote a Wizard of Oz rule set years ago, like before anyone had even gotten the property as part of like just for fun. You know, my notebook is filled with like a Tony Hawk Pro Skater rule set that I had written. So it's my doodling, right? Because it's just, it's my outlet. So, you know, if anyone wanted to be involved at a higher level, like, I welcome it because I'm doing it anyway for fun, whether it's solicited or not. That's cool, man. And did you ever volunteer your Wizard of Oz rule set to Jack when he was talking about making that game, or was it beyond that point? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, I think the rule set that I made was, I think, based on, like, my dad's Baracora layout. layout. So it was one of those things where if they wanted to go in a simpler direction, it kind of may have been something that worked for that, but obviously, you know, Jack took things way into the future. Right, right. And honestly, a Tony Hawk game would be amazing. And they made Radical, but that was a long time ago, so there's new and great stuff they could do with that license, so I like it. Speaking of, Lyman, is there any chance you'll be revisiting previous CGC releases to tweak the code, or possible that you and Josh will be the primary coding team on future CGC titles? That's an interesting question. I guess I could go with a cliche answer that all the sports guys say and just say, like, you know, I'm taking it one game at a time. And I don't know. I mean, for me personally, I definitely appreciate being part of those projects. And they were a lot of fun. They were a ton of work. A lot of fun, though. Different environment, but similar. I think being younger helped. Being a little, like, innocent helped. And I mean, for me, I like working on new stuff. I mean, once I was able to get rid of the pressure of having to do OS stuff and game stuff and start a new game, just probably the most fun I've had working on a game has been on Walking Dead when I was home, you know, for whatever it was, you know, another four, six months to machine up the game where I didn't have, having to do a creative or be creative is very hard. I'll say under pressure when people are putting pressure on you to like, I need this, I need that, I need this, I need that. And, you know, it's kind of how, you know, things work for me at Stern a little bit. Like, you know, here's four months to get ACDC in a box out the door, by the way, you know, thanks for helping out with Tron and we need to you know qualify this new usb part so we can we can ship transformers and then you know after acbc or whatever i'm still trying to work on that like gary wants a you know a ticket redemption system you know whatever before you work on metallica which you're not even supposed to work on whatever and like i enjoy working on new stuff but as long as it's you know the schedules are are reasonable and you know that old stuff like i don't know for me i think i would maybe be, you know, be, like those games are, I feel like those games, with a few exceptions, a couple of tweaks here and there or whatever, like those games are perfectly fine the way they are. And, you know, they, I don't want to say like they serve their purpose, but I don't know how much more you can really do to those games outside of what CGC has already done to make them look more like a modern product. I think that for me, I'm more interested in working on new stuff. Do you think there's any chance that CGC will hire Steve Ritchie to pop in your doorway every now and then and go, go faster, just to keep you feeling comfortable? I don't know. You know, I had this talk with Steve recently, and, you know, like, as we get older, we're, I guess, a little less intense, which is kind of hard to figure for a guy like Steve or even somebody like me. I don't know. I wish Steve the best. He's a good friend. We've made some good stuff together, and I want to see him happy and challenged, obviously. He's got a lot of passion, and he makes a lot of nice stuff. But, yeah, I miss seeing him every day. That's the thing about the work from home that you don't get. You're probably a little bit more productive with the work, but then you don't get those fun moments that happen in a dynamic work environment with crazy personalities that are unpredictable and funny. But I think Steve will be pretty happy. Where is that? Well, we definitely want to talk to you more about your history and all that stuff. But we want to try and get you on for a kind of more laid-back interview in the future with our fireside chat at some point. I got 10 minutes before Amanda destroys my soul. We are almost done. We are almost done. I got one more question. Question 57. Yeah, exactly. But you're kind of known for making sure that a game is done to your satisfaction before you move on to your next project. and CGC doesn't quite have the same cadence of releases as a company like Sternwood. So are you looking forward to working for companies where you have more time in between releases to really perfect your code? Well, I think as far as, again, Cactus specifically and CGC, the three games that have been produced prior, some people would say, well, you know, Monster Bash is a little shallower than that. I mean, it depends on how you have the game set up. Those games were fairly done and complete. when they chose to remake them. And I think Cactus is in a little different spot where when there's development that is happening and Josh and I are doing the development and playing a game and iterating, that there is sort of this... For me, I always want to try to appeal to as many people as I can. And I also am a human being. I make mistakes, plenty of them, but I also am very persistent and maybe it's a flaw, I don't know, or just don't ever want to give up on stuff. So I think as far as Cactus goes specifically, that I will put the time and effort into the game to get it to where the most people are happy with it. I guess that's the best way I could answer that question. And I think Josh is on board with that too. Oh, yeah. Well, I can't imagine a better team on the rules for this game. When it was announced that you would be working to improve the code on Cactus Canyon, I think the number of people lining up to buy this game shot through the roof. I'm just glad that I've been on the list for this for a very long time. And so we're really looking forward to seeing what you guys have done. And I hope that this isn't the last time we see a Lyman Sharp game release. And so thanks again for taking the time to come on the Super Awesome Pinball Show to answer our questions. And a huge thank you from all pinheads for all that both of you do for the industry. Yes, I can neither confirm nor deny the fact that it was a pleasure having you both on the show. I'll hit you up on one of our eight slacks that we're in together, Chris. Right on. Josh, we'll talk soon. Alright, thanks guys very much and continued success and again, accolades to you both for everything that you do. The pinball community loves you and so do we. Awesome, guys. Take care. Have a good rest of the weekend. Thanks, guys. Thanks, man. Thanks, guys. So that was our interview with Josh and Lyman and we are so grateful that they were able to sit down with us and do that. I think we learned a lot about the project and it was really good to hear Lyman again. I spoke with Josh Sharpe yesterday. I asked him about the status of the code and on a really positive note, it sounds like he and the team at CGC are still expecting to finish the project, see it all the way through to completion. They've got Lyman's last iteration of the code and they're going through it to make a list of what needs to be done still. And without Lyman, it's obviously going to take a little longer than it would have. So all the impatient pinball fans out there, myself included, we just have to be patient. But it's important that we give them the time to make it right. And just knowing that there's a new Lyman Sheets project that we will be able to experience in the future is a bright spot for pinball. Yeah, definitely. It was strange hearing his voice. I talked to him in November. It was the last time I spoke to him on the phone. We were talking about the fireside chat and setting that up. Like I said before, it's funny. Someone who comes off as not being very social, we were on the phone for like an hour and a half. And it wasn't my fault. I live alone. I have a tendency, like somebody calls me up, you know, for an hour and a half. They're like, uh-huh, yeah, I've got to take a shit, buddy. But, yeah, very chatty, and it was a great conversation. Unfortunately, we never got to do that fireside chat, but definitely good to hear his voice again, get the warm fuzzies. Yeah, and I'm thankful to Josh and the CCC crew for continuing to work on that. Definitely. That's going to be the bottle cap on his delicious bottle of pinball coating. Goodness. Yeah, goodness, whatever. Yeah, definitely. It would be unfortunate if it just kind of laid dormant and unfinished, so good on them for that. Jeff, did you know Lyman? Have you met him? I met him once. I really didn't spend a lot of time with him. But we were at, a couple of friends of mine drove through the night. I mean, middle of the night we drove from Maine to Pittsburgh for, it wasn't replay FX at that point. It was just Pinburgh. It was before they moved over to the conventions that are still in the PAPA headquarters. And we got there and no sleep. And within a couple hours, we were playing a tournament before the actual Pinburgh the next day. And we were a group, we had a group of three, but we needed four. and they sent somebody to be in our group and it happened to be Lyman. And we're just kind of all starstruck because, you know, we know the man, we know the games he's made, and you know you're going to lose. We're not going to lose. So much for that. But he was just super nice. He came over and, you know, introduced us. I guess I'm with you guys, and we're just kind of like, you know, it's like if, you know, the person that you utilized just shows up. Like for me, I'm a big game show fan. It's like if Bob Barker came up and all of a sudden he's playing. pinball with us. It's like, that's the kind of stardom I kind of felt like. Price is wrong, bitch. Yeah. And before he did that, well, we were playing our balls because we were playing an EM. It was one player, EM. He went over to another machine and plugged in a USB. I can't remember what the game was, but plugged a USB, stick into it, and updated code, brand new code that he had brought with him for whatever new game that was out at that point. And he's just this super nice guy. And I grabbed a picture of him. I put a picture on my Facebook page of him when he passed, just saying, hey, this was my experience. And like I said, just amazed that we're playing with this guy, such a great not only player, but, you know, pinball would not be where it is today without Lyman. You know, a lot of the pinball players wouldn't be where they are today if it were not for Lyman, because I've heard several stories about how generous he was with giving people tips and explaining things about, you know, telling them about how to play the game better and all that. So a lot of people, a lot of people in the pinball industry are much better off having Lyman around. I played Lyman's lament on Monster Bash in his honor after he passed. There's so many people in pinball who are extremely talented, but I think Lyman was at the far end of that bell curve. I mean, he was the absolute top of his game as a player, innovator, coder. And as your story kind of alluded to, Jeff, he's just an extremely down-to-earth, genuinely nice guy. He was humble. But he's a genuine, genuine great guy. and one of the few people that if you saw just a silhouette of his pinball stance you'd know who it was I posted the picture and you don't have to see his face to know exactly who's playing that game exactly so I guess it goes without saying that this episode is most definitely dedicated to the memory of Lyman we miss you buddy and wow we hope you guys enjoyed that last interview so that does it for episode number 746 of the Super Awesome Pinball Show. Who else gives you this kind of content? Every other day, we're coming back with a free podcast. Just kidding. See you guys. Take it easy, everybody. Goodbye. If you'd like to drop us a line or ask us a question, you can send it to superawesomepinball at gmail.com. Emails may be read on the air. This content is copyright 2022 Asshat Radio Productions. Coming up next time, Stern Pinball's George Gomez. I can't tell you how many people when we posted that we were going to have you on texted me instead. Oh my gosh, you've got to tell Lyman how much I love him. Like, please let him know that if there's a Lyman game that comes out, I'm going to buy it. You were very much, as you know, really well-respected and loved in the industry. So I'm really glad that you're not out of it for good. A lot of people were nervous when they heard that you had left Stern. Yeah, I mean, I've left Stern in the past, and I have immense respect for Gary and the people who work there, his business. Again, nobody, if you want to look behind the curtain, go get a job there. I've always tried to help them out. It is a give and take. I'm there for selfish reasons, too. I want to make pinball machines. And I get burned out sometimes. You know, I was burned out at the end of Revenge for Mars and that whole period at Williams. And it's like, I'm going to take a little break for a while. I'm going to go work on video games for being just a tech guy for three years and not do game development. And then, you know, in 2010, I left Stern. I continued to do contracting work for them and to try to find, you know, a replacement. And then when it was kind of like, well, you really need some help and whatever, and I can come back and after, you know, they hired Steve and some other people and they were like, hey, we're looking to, you know, make this other product line of games that has a little bit more of them and is a little, maybe a bit more of what, you know, people want out of the games. Sign me up. This is the stuff I want to work on. And, you know, people don't understand. It's a high-pressure environment. It is a lot of fun, but it's a lot of work. And just on the creative end, your reward for finishing the game is there's another one that they want you to work on. And once you creatively get to the point where you're kind of like running on fumes, you really need to take a break and just take a step back and go, okay, I need a, I just need a little break from, you know, like those games of Batman and Elvira. There's a ton of work I did on those games, on the art end, with doing video clips and whatever else, really building a lot of, you know, the rules kind of by myself. Mike Vinikour helped me a little bit on Batman. And Greg helped, like, immensely on the creative end on Elvira. Like, I mean, that guy is the real deal. But doing the rules and scoring and balancing and playing and all that stuff, and being like more than half the art team probably doing all that stuff for putting all that content into the game. Like you just get burned out after a while. And then, like I say, I was really looking to just take a step back. I had a conversation with Dave and George about like, I can't do this anymore, you know, kind of thing. Like with the studio titles, like it's a lot of, it's a ton of work. And for what you want this other product line to be, collector, game, you know, whatever, I need to take a step back and I need a break. and they were willing to work with that. And then for me, like I say, it's just like this sort of, you know, came up after I started, you know, kind of like my exit from being an employee to being a contractor. And I looked at it like I'm excited about doing this work on Cactus and I feel like I can do it. And I think in the very beginning, just that kind of background research because I think if I just like jumped into programming again, I would have been like, you know, just still kind of like needing a break. But being able to get away from the keyboard for a couple of months to just really do some research and lay out a plan with Josh for the game, that was enough of a break to that, along with a ton of work that the original team had done for the game and the CGC team, the software and everything else that they had already done on the game. it was enough where, you know, between and having Josh to help, that was enough to say like, yeah, I can do this and I'm excited about doing it. So as far as projects go, it was, like I said, it was the right project at the right time for me. Yeah, it sounds like it. It sounds like it was a nice transition point so that now wherever you end up going after this, whether you stay or, you know, contract with other companies. Yeah, I might just take some more time off. good good for you well you deserve it if anyone does you know you i know you go full bore and do whatever you're doing so i want people to be happy with the product and you know again for me i mean i started as a player and an enthusiast and josh is like he's still where i was you know probably before i got into pinball and then again when when you combine engineering with it that's really that's really the thing that's like slowed me down over the years is is just the engineering aspect of it's fun to, you know, kick around, like play games and kick around ideas for rules and stuff. It's another thing to sit at your keyboard and make the stuff, you know, research versus engineering. And, you know, the research stuff is super fun. And the engineering stuff is, I wouldn't say pinball engineering is really hard. There's just a ton of it. And there's a lot of attention to detail that's required. where you really do have to play something hundreds of times to get it into the shape that you know is like, yeah, that's it, versus, you know, like, yeah, you know, I guess it could be better, or whatever it happens to be. And, you know, Josh still has that great enthusiasm, where he's still kind of like the puppy dog running around, you know, all in a sense, and like, hey, how about this, how about that? And for me, I put those two things together, and so I still love software engineering. I love all the challenges with pinball. And again, creatively sometimes, you know, you're just kind of like, okay, you know, I'm out of gas. Like, I need some help with some of this stuff. And he's been a great help. That's great. And I imagine that some of the code, you know, for games like Batman 66 is so much more complex and so deep that, you know, you really have to think about all of the different ways that all the many pieces are interacting. Whereas with a Bally Williams game, it's a lot more clear cut. streamlined. I know Cactus is kind of jumbled because of like you were saying, the poly stuff that all overlapped, but it's not nearly as deep as the newer stuff that I'm sure you've worked on and it might be a nice refreshing change to have. Not quite the depth. That's really it. I mean, we've certainly, and Josh would say, we've added depth to the game where our finish line is for everything. There are more things in the game. There's added depth to the game but again it's very difficult to make a product that feels to the most people and casual players again like so many new people coming in to pinball being first introduced to it it's a tough product i mean pinball if you watch a new player play pinball it's not a comfortable experience right you know to just kind of like get used to the game and comfortable with it and understand what they're doing is very intimidating. And when everybody else can kind of see what you're doing, it's also like, you know, you don't want to look inexperienced or like you don't know what you're doing or, you know, you're clumsy or foolish or whatever it happens to be. So it's just all these very like kind of uncomfortable things all at once, you know, for new people. But I've been excited about all of the new people who are being introduced into it. And, you know, a lot of that has to, I think, has to do with marketing. With marketing, I mean, certainly, Shuren's done a great job with their Facebook page and getting people involved and just getting the message out to people about it. And then also all the different podcasts and people talking about it. It's been great. Are you a podcast listener? Not really. Again, like, if I'm doing a podcast, I'm not writing code. I'm not very good at multitasking, so I usually, if I'm doing programming, I kind of have to be doing programming. And then so, yeah, not too much. not too much. I do definitely try to, you know, have a kind of a, you know, a circle of friends. I just, you know, news comes out and, you know, hear about it, whatever. And, uh, you know, I try to avoid a lot of the drama type stuff. I just, I'm an engineer. I just want things to be boring and predictable. So I'm in the same way. I'm an, I'm an anesthesiologist, so I don't like drama at all. Like if my day is boring, that's a great day for me because that means that everyone's stable and there's been no challenges. But yeah, I mean, pinball in general, The drama in this hobby has grown, I'm sure, exponentially since back in the day when you were first at Data East. It's just with Pinside and the Internet and podcasts. It's just really crazy. I tell people, if you didn't know how crazy pinball was, you would never expect a hobby about pinball to have so much soap opera drama stuff going on in the background. I would think games would be exciting enough for people, but they need drama. And I don't think either of us are really fans of the drama. That's why we changed the format of our show to just be about releases of games so we don't have to discuss so much the bullshit behind it and just shining a spotlight on people's efforts to come out with these new games and stuff. And I think since we've done that, we've enjoyed doing the show a lot more. Yeah, we don't really speak to all of the major points of drama like playfield issues. And, you know, if designers have personal stuff going on in their lives, we don't really want to deal with any of that. We just want to highlight the good stuff and really champion the people in the hobby and the games coming out and that sort of stuff. I fielded those questions before. And it's part of the gig that you sign up for. I mean, as far as play field stuff, I mean, to me, because I've been on the stern side of it, the play field issues like around Ghostbusters time. And if a company in pinball with where pinball is today, and even if it weren't where it is today, whatever, to believe that a company isn't actively working 100% on trying to solve these things. I just sort of feel like, you know, talking about it on a podcast isn't going to make them work like 101% to try to solve, you know, issues. Because again, you know, you see what happens behind the curtain and it's like, well, yeah, I mean, all it really does is, I guess, like maybe add a little bit more pressure and make people, you know, like, I mean, these people are working on this stuff. So, you know, it's the drama thing, but it does make it exciting. you know, it makes people, like, it engages certain people in certain conversations and whatever. And so I think some of it does have a purpose. It's just I'm not a good fit for it, I guess. Yeah, I hear you. Well, I mean, thanks, man. We've taken up about three hours of your day, so we really, really appreciate your time. Yeah, I appreciate that you guys would let us have a voice and we could just kind of talk without, I don't know, just kind of say what's on our minds. And that's always very cool because I don't, I've gotten into a lot of trouble. with some of the things I said, sometimes in public and whatever else. It's time to go write some more code. Chris, I'm glad that you're making art for Pinball again because, seriously, your stuff is top-notch. It is some of my favorite art that's been done for Pinball, and I'm glad that I'm going to see some new stuff. You're going to edit that out because nobody needs to hear that except you. Oh, no. As long as you're happy doing it, You know, that's where it is. Well, thank you very much, sir. And I'm excited to see what you've done with Campus Canyon as well. Thanks. All right, man. Thank you so much. Thanks very much, guys. All right. You too, man. Thanks. We'll talk soon. Okay. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Christian. Bye-bye. Bye, guys. I feel everything and nothing At the same time I'm waiting All that I love in a moment's gone I'm breaking Ooh, heaven knows I need this Ooh, wake me up, I'm dreaming Losing it all in the blink of an eye I'm not ready to say goodbye I'm not ready to say goodbye I'm just a shell of myself And I've never felt so empty Everything's spinning out of control And I can't breathe Ooh, heaven knows I need to leave Ooh, wake me up, I'm dreaming Losing it all in the blink of an eye I'm not ready to say goodbye I'm not ready to say goodbye I just want a little more time Little more time, little more time I just want a little more time Little more time, little more time Ooh, heaven knows I need this Ooh, wake me up, I'm dreaming Losing you all in the blink of an eye I'm not ready to say goodbye Ooh, heaven knows I need it Ooh, wake me up, I'm dreaming You didn't want it to be so And I'm not ready to say goodbye I'm not ready to say goodbye _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v4)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 5c077c5b-5fab-4feb-9515-29637f818a22*