# Ep 21: LoserKid emails Deeproot, Robert Mueller responds! **Source:** LoserKid Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2019-11-06 **Duration:** 61m 58s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/ciVvgQg_ --- ## Analysis Josh Roop and Scott Larson interview Robert Mueller of Deeproot Pinball via email responses ahead of the Houston Arcade Expo reveal. Mueller discusses his evolved approach to pinball manufacturing, his decision to bail out Zidware customers, his 'go big' strategy competing against Stern's market dominance, and previews upcoming innovations across 13 planned games. The tone shows Mueller adopting a more measured, less brash public persona while maintaining confidence in the company's vision. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Robert Mueller has not taken any outside money—he is self-funding Deeproot Pinball entirely from his own resources. — _Josh emphasizes multiple times: 'he hasn't taken a dime from anybody. Legitimately, he hasn't taken a dime from anybody. This is all his own money.'_ - [HIGH] Mueller spent significant money bailing out Zidware customers despite having no obligation to do so, in order to hire designer John Papaduke. — _Scott states: 'this guy brought thousands of dollars to the table to bail out a failed company that wasn't even his company.' Mueller confirms in response: 'my desire to try and to help the Zidware customers got in the way of focusing on what was most important. It has sucked time and money out of the pinball project.'_ - [HIGH] Deeproot's first prototype will be shown at Houston Arcade Expo in low-key fashion without streaming, but attendees will take photos/videos for social media. — _Mueller: 'It will be a low-key affair we will have staff on hand to record lots of data and fix any issues i'm sure there will be ample pictures and videos taken by everyone there and posted to social media'_ - [HIGH] Deeproot has 13 games in development pipeline, each with multiple unique innovations never before seen in pinball. — _Mueller: 'Each of our first 13 games will have multiple unique innovations never before seen in pinball.'_ - [HIGH] Mueller regrets the timing of bailing out Zidware customers, believing he should have launched Deeproot first, then addressed that obligation. — _Mueller: 'I would go back and tell myself to get pinball launched first, then do the right thing.'_ - [MEDIUM] Deeproot Studios in Utah is positioned as a broader creative entity beyond just pinball, though pinball is a primary focus. — _Mueller: 'deep root studios is an extension of the pinball project but it is also its own creative force it was never meant to be considered solely for pinball... pinball has been and always will be a means to an end not the end itself'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I breathe and live pinball almost every waking moment. It's something hard to get back to just standing in front of a machine and loving it for loving it." > — **Robert Mueller**, ~11:30 > _Mueller addresses the challenge of transitioning from fan to maker, using analogy of a chef who can no longer enjoy cooking recreationally._ > "I've been brash, maybe too much so. But I also know that when the world sees the forest for the trees, a lot of the mysteries will make sense." > — **Robert Mueller**, ~12:15 > _Mueller acknowledges his prior public persona while maintaining confidence in his vision, showing measured introspection._ > "We are not about selling high-priced art or animation first, hoping to hide a tired, cheap pinball design." > — **Robert Mueller**, ~13:00 > _Directly addresses criticism that boutique manufacturers prioritize aesthetics over gameplay—core design philosophy statement._ > "If I had to do this over again, I probably would try to do things a lot differently... I would go back and tell myself to get pinball launched first, then do the right thing." > — **Robert Mueller**, ~19:30 > _Mueller expresses regret about timing of Zidware bailout, suggesting it delayed core business launch, showing business maturity._ > "Besides, no one starting small would ever dent Stern's 80% to 90% command of the market." > — **Robert Mueller**, ~25:00 > _Justifies 'go big' strategy with market realities, acknowledging Stern's dominance as reason for aggressive approach._ > "him paying off the Zidware people, that is amazing. And really, that should get a gold star banner number one option for me just because, again, he didn't have to do that at all." > — **Scott Larson**, ~27:45 > _Generous community validation of Mueller's charitable/business decision, countering negative framing in some circles._ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Robert Mueller | person | Founder/CEO of Deeproot Pinball; former brash critic of pinball industry, now adopting measured public approach; self-funding company; bailed out Zidware customers to hire John Papaduke. | | Deeproot Pinball | company | New boutique pinball manufacturer founded by Robert Mueller; planning 13 games in development; showing prototype at Houston Arcade Expo; competing with Stern's market dominance. | | Josh Roop | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; conducted email interview with Mueller; managed questions and facilitation. | | Scott Larson | person | Co-host of Loser Kid Pinball Podcast; provided deeper analytical questions; praised Mueller's Zidware bailout decision. | | John Papaduke | person | Legendary pinball designer hired by Deeproot; previously associated with failed Zidware project; design talent valued despite complicated backstory. | | Zidware | company | Failed pinball venture led by John Papaduke; left customers without completed machines; Mueller bailed out customers to clear hiring path for Papaduke. | | Stern Pinball | company | Market leader with 80-90% market dominance; releases games every 3-4 months; benchmark against which Deeproot is positioning itself. | | Houston Arcade Expo | event | Upcoming major pinball event where Deeproot's first prototype will be shown in low-key fashion without streaming. | | Deeproot Studios | company | Utah-based creative division of Deeproot Pinball focused on animation, art, and audio for pinball machines and other projects. | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Referenced as competitor taking market share from Stern; Pirates game cited as comparable strategy to Deeproot's approach. | | Chicago Gaming Company | company | Boutique manufacturer mentioned as one of few competitors making dent in Stern's market dominance. | | Spooky Pinball | company | Bootstrap, self-funded boutique manufacturer; contrasted with Deeproot's larger startup budget; praised for design approach. | | Keith Elwin | person | Legendary Stern designer cited by Scott as precedent for transitioning from fan/operator to insider manufacturer perspective. | | Medieval Madness | game | Scott ordered Epic Royal mode upgrade for his personal machine; discussed as exemplar of importance of art/lighting/sound to player experience. | | Attack from Mars | game | Used as example of how toppers and lighting upgrades enhance player experience and replay appeal. | | Pirates of the Caribbean | game | Jersey Jack title cited as precedent for prototype reveal strategy and design iteration (three discs reduced to one). | | Matt Shablom/Shablam | person | Local pinball community member; anesthesiologist who provided care during Josh's son's surgery; represents community support network. | | Loser Kid Pinball Podcast | organization | Hosts of this episode; established independent pinball podcast with large audience; coordinated first interview with Mueller. | | Laurin Gray / Backbox Pinball Podcast | person | Pinball podcaster who personally reached out to Josh during family health crisis; represents community engagement. | | Williams-Bally | company | Classic pinball manufacturer era (90s) cited by Mueller and hosts as design benchmark; games still beloved by community. | ### Topics - **Primary:** Deeproot Pinball's design philosophy and market positioning, Robert Mueller's evolution from brash critic to measured manufacturer, Zidware bailout and John Papaduke hiring decision, Houston Arcade Expo prototype reveal strategy, Competition with Stern's market dominance - **Secondary:** Importance of art, lighting, and sound in pinball experience, Pinball community support and engagement - **Mentioned:** Personal life updates (Josh's son's surgery, family illness) ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.82) — Generally optimistic tone toward Mueller's vision and approach. Hosts validate his decision-making (Zidware bailout), appreciate his self-funding commitment, and express excitement about upcoming reveal. Some residual skepticism about execution and innovation claims, but overall supportive stance. Personal segments (surgery, funeral) inject somber notes but are presented as examples of community support rather than criticism. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Mueller's Zidware bailout ($4,000+) represents significant capital deployment outside core business, prioritizing talent acquisition (Papaduke) and reputation management over capital efficiency. (confidence: high) — Mueller: 'my desire to try and to help the Zidware customers got in the way of focusing on what was most important. It has sucked time and money out of the pinball project.' Scott validates: 'he brought thousands of dollars to the table to bail out a failed company.' - **[sentiment_shift]** Hosts' shift toward validation of Mueller's decision-making and confidence in his vision, countering prior skepticism about 'brashness' with appreciation for self-funding and Zidware bailout. (confidence: high) — Scott: 'him paying off the Zidware people, that is amazing... that should get a gold star banner number one.' Josh: 'I'm refreshed because I thought that Robert was a little over the top and brash at the beginning... this seems to be also closer to the end of the production line.' - **[competitive_signal]** Deeproot claims 13 games each with multiple innovations never before seen in pinball, building on Williams-Bally era design principles while pushing into 21st century features. (confidence: medium) — Mueller: 'Each of our first 13 games will have multiple unique innovations never before seen in pinball... and then add in innovations on top of the Williams-Bally era and current machines.' - **[design_philosophy]** Deeproot positioning against 'high-priced art/animation hiding cheap design' critique; claims integrated value across build, art, animation, sound, interaction, production, and maintenance. (confidence: high) — Mueller: 'We are not about selling high-priced art or animation first, hoping to hide a tired, cheap pinball design. I hope the value speaks for itself very soon.' - **[event_signal]** Houston Arcade Expo next week will feature Deeproot prototype in controlled, low-key setting with social media documentation but no official stream; positioned as data-gathering opportunity rather than public reveal. (confidence: high) — Mueller: 'It will be a low-key affair we will have staff on hand to record lots of data and fix any issues i'm sure there will be ample pictures and videos taken by everyone there and posted to social media.' - **[leak_detection]** Mueller confirms multiple innovations in development that will not be revealed at Houston Arcade Expo prototype demonstration, indicating undisclosed competitive features. (confidence: medium) — Mueller: 'most of the innovations that we will not show yet... There's a reason why the 90s William Bally games are still some of the most beloved... Each of our first 13 games will have multiple unique innovations never before seen in pinball.' - **[market_signal]** Mueller's 'go big or go home' philosophy and 13-game pipeline justified by Stern's 80-90% market dominance, implying aggressive quarterly release schedule to compete. (confidence: medium) — Mueller: 'Besides, no one starting small would ever dent Stern's 80% to 90% command of the market.' Josh projects: 'if you're going to be attempting to compete head-to-head with Stern, then it makes sense that you will try to release every three to four months.' - **[community_signal]** Robert Mueller public persona shift from brash/boastful to measured/thoughtful, indicating maturation as company founder and response to prior community criticism. (confidence: high) — Mueller: 'I've been brash, maybe too much so.' Josh notes 'we're going from a very brash individual... I think he's learned that he needs to dial it back.' - **[personnel_signal]** John Papaduke rehabilitation/hiring signals Deeproot's willingness to invest in controversial talent recovery to secure design expertise, despite reputational risk. (confidence: high) — Scott: 'John Papa Duke... fully intended on making a pinball machine, but he didn't know how to do it outside of the design process... Robert saying that he is probably right... he brought thousands of dollars to the table to bail out a failed company.' - **[product_strategy]** Deeproot has prototype playable at Houston Arcade Expo but withholding some mechanical/feature innovations for later reveal, suggesting staged rollout strategy. (confidence: high) — Mueller: 'what those games will not have is slash are most of the innovations that we will not show yet... I hope the hobby keeps in mind that the best is yet to come.' - **[business_signal]** Deeproot deliberately managing prototype reveal through low-key soft launch rather than splashy public demonstration, likely to control narrative and gather real-world data without overhyping incomplete features. (confidence: high) — Mueller: 'It will be a low-key affair we will have staff on hand to record lots of data... we still going to make it better Great Perfect.' Contrasted with JJP's more aggressive Pirates reveal that encountered design iteration issues. --- ## Transcript Hey, welcome everyone. Thank you for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are on episode 21. I am Josh Roop and with me, my co-captain as always, Scott Larson. Hey Scott, how are you doing today? You know what? It's actually been a pretty crazy time at work. I just got back from a meeting and it's 9.30 and we're recording now. I know it's Between my last week and your week this week, it seems like there's a lot of stuff going on. Yeah. This is what happens when life gets in the way of pinball. Yep. But it's still good. It's still good. Life is good, just quite busy. So what has been going on in your life in the last couple of weeks? It's been three weeks since we've recorded. Well, it has been three weeks. Um, well, um, so we got through, uh, the fall break craziness that was over here and, uh, we got a little bit of updates from Brad as, uh, Brad on the last, uh, podcast from lit frames. He, uh, was updating us on all the expo stuff and I did score. I tried to order the, uh, Brian Allen alternative monster bash thing, but it was sold out when I tried to order it. So I thought I missed out, but Brad had one and I was able to, he was able to find one for me. And so I bought that from Brad. Very awesome. That is on the way. And I also bought a, I bought a lit frame for the Stern, the current Stern LCD translights because they're all different, different sizes. So I'm looking forward to starting to decorate my downstairs room by having some pinball art and maybe some translights of games that I like the art, but I don't have space for the games. And so I can still appreciate them that way. Nice. Sounds like you've been a busy little beaver, even when you're not playing pinball. Yeah. Yeah. And I also, I guess I'll go more into it, but I did put in an order and confirmed my interest in upgrading my Medieval Madness. Awesome. So I am going to upgrade it to Epic Royal mode. Dude, I can't wait for you to get this in and get it installed. I want to see this puppy in action. I know it's just lights and whatnot, but the whole thing just looks so epic. It looks so good. You know, it's one of those things where, you know, we'll talk about this more when we talk about customizing games. But there's something about the entire experience. And there's a reason why pinball machines have moved beyond what, okay, I'll put it this way. You wouldn't buy a whitewood pinball machine. You just wouldn't. Because ultimately, it's pretty boring. It's a pitch and bat game. You have a ball come down. you hit it and it goes and does something and comes back but that's the reason why art's important that's the reason why lighting is important that's the reason why sound's important that's the reason why visual integration is important it makes the whole pinball experience more enjoyable even though it really doesn't affect the way the ball and the flippers interact so yeah i figured medieval madness my kids love it uh everybody loves it it comes over they that's the first game when people say okay i know nothing about pinball which machine should i try and i always point to that because that's the first one where people can do the thing that makes it cool and they can do it fairly easily just getting that castle door to you know the drawbridge to to drop down the gate to go up and the castle to explode they can do that all very quickly and i can show them this is why pinball is cool and when you take that to the next level of adding a light show adding upgraded speakers adding that panel adding the uh adding the topper it's just going to take it even more to that epic level and that's the reason why um you know attack from mars when you play the le with the topper and the lights and thingy that goes woo it's amazing you always want to go back and play one more time. Oh, I totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah. Cool. I can't wait for you to get yours in and, uh, see you get it installed. Cause it's just, I don't know. It's going to be a hoot. Yeah. No, it'll be a lot of fun. Well, what has been going on with you? So I haven't been playing a ton of pinball lately. Last week was pretty chaotic. Um, so for those that have our friends with me on Facebook, they did see that my son went in, my six-month-old son, one of the twins went in for surgery. It was a cyst on his eye. But the cool part about the story is – Not his eye. It was his eyebrow. No, it was in between his eye and his eyelid. It was a – what was the technical term? The right orbital interdermoid cyst. Yes. I don't know. Something like that. Okay. But the cool part is one of the guys that we play pinball with, Matt Shablom, I hope I'm saying that right. Shablam. Okay. I will post the name and you guys, you can guess too. So anyhow, but Matt, Matt's been really good to me. Like he's, and he was the anesthesiologist on the job. Cause I mean, a six month old baby is tiny. So they are tiny, but dude, he took care of us and it put my, my wife is an angel. She has been taking care of all the stuff. And I mean, it's just, it's a very basic, uh, straightforward procedure, but you still worry. And Matt took care of us. And, um, I just want to thank all the people that reached out. You know, uh, we had Zach many and JJ Babich and, um, uh, Lauren gray of the back, the backbox pinball podcast, all personally reached out among other people. I just, I really appreciate it. It's last week was a rough leak. My, my great grandmother died too. so the funeral was on Monday we had a surgery on Friday it was chaos and then we had Halloween somewhere in the middle of that and Halloween was freezing this year I don't know how it was everywhere else but we went out and it was 35 degrees when we went out and we ended up got down to 34 and I just turned to the kids and was like we got tons of candy at home, let's go home it was like 45 minutes It was so cold. Like the road above us did like a trunk or treat, and even that was sparsely attended. I think it was just because it was so cold. Well, they said last week it has hit the coldest recorded temperature in the month of October in the state of Utah. Yeah. So I know we were hitting negative temperatures last week, and now we're back up to, what, 40s, 50s during the afternoon? Yeah, yeah. It's not as cold, but it's still cold. Yeah. Welcome to Utah. Yeah. Well, cool. So, you know, there hasn't been a ton of news lately. So why don't we make some of our own news, Scott? Sure. Let's do it. Let's do it. So what we are going to do is Houston Arcade Expo is next week. And we all know that Raza, the prototype, is going to be there. Robert Mueller and company has told us, please do not judge it based off of artwork or design or code right now. It's basically a working prototype. that's pretty much it it's an early prototype correct yeah so um i reached out to robert i asked him hey let's come on let's let's do an interview let's talk about this stuff let's let's get let's get some uh what we're going to be walking into next week you know i'm saying and so he said that um they can't do anything on he can't do anything live right now at the moment so we sent him our questions and he sent them back answers to us at three o'clock this afternoon I was pretty shocked because we talked about this and you said, hey, what questions? So I submitted my questions and you submitted the better questions. And you sent them to him. And then you sent me like three hours later, you sent me a response. And I thought, wow, that was really fast. I did not expect a response that fast. Well, what's funny is I've been talking to Robert for a week or so now. And so it's like I haven't heard anything, haven't heard anything. And all of a sudden just today, this morning, it was like, bam, let's do it. And I was like, oh, okay, let's do this. So I sent you over the questions. Do you have those pulled up? I am pulling them up as we speak. Awesome. So my thoughts are let's have you read as Loser Kim Pinball Podcast, and I'll read as Robert. Okay. And that way we don't confuse people. And that sounds good. And we can even post screenshots of this. This is just straight up from a message from Robert Mueller. And so this was our first question. Since starting Deep Root Pinball, how has your approach to pinball evolved? Three things. First, I play a lot less. I remember a friend back in high school telling me he was sick of TV dinners. I was surprised as his dad was a head chef for a five-star resort. My friend explained that his dad cooked all day, and cooking when he got home was the last thing he wanted to do. Much like this, I breathe and live pinball almost every waking moment. It's something hard to get back to just standing in front of a machine and loving it for loving it. Second, I am ever motivated to change the past. I remember how many things frustrated me about my Williams-Bally pinball machines back in 2015. Why did they do this? Why did they do that? Why is it so hard to set up and maintain? Why is everything so complicated? Why are all these companies so dysfunctional? Why aren't more people into pinball, etc.? All of these formed into a business plan. Then they morphed into a real R&D effort and will soon morph into a business. I have been brash, maybe too much so. But I also know that when the world sees the forest for the trees, a lot of the mysteries will make sense. Third, I am more passionate about bringing value to pinball more than I ever was before. When we first started the R&D work. I don't mean value as making games that don't cost a lot, but value at every level. Build, art, animation, sound, interaction with the ball, production value, player experience, maintenance, etc. We are not about selling high-priced art or animation first, hoping to hide a tired, cheap pinball design. I hope the value speaks for itself very soon. Okay, now, so that is Robert's response. That is a well thought out. I think a very measured response, which is it's less of the hype. I guess the PR. This seems more of like an intimate view of what he feels. What do you feel about that response, Josh? What jumps out at you? I think we're going from a very brash individual. Like he even says that in the middle. I've been brash, maybe too much so. I think he's learned that he needs to dial it back. I think the response is really good. I think there's a lot of thoughtfulness into it. I like that he's bringing – because we've always heard like they're either going to be super cheap or they're going to be really expensive. And here he's talking about it doesn't necessarily mean the value of making the games doesn't cost a lot. It means that there's going to be value at every corner of this, and I like that. I like that we complain. I know the pinball community complains a lot about the quality of the pinball machine isn't always 100%. We take a little, give a little. The artwork might not be up to par because the gameplay is fantastic or the gameplay suffers a little bit because the code is not all the way there. And so from this perspective, it looks like they want to hit every angle before they present you a product. And I can really appreciate that. What are your thoughts? Yeah, a couple things jumped out. The first thing is, as a fan transitioning into a maker, a pinball maker, there are different phases you go through. And even remember when we talked with Keith Elwin, he had been basically an operator, a fan, a competitor for years, but he never worked on the inside as a manufacturer. And so he said basically the same thing. I used to have the same complaints that other people had. Hey, why didn't they do this? Well, that was kind of weird. Why didn't they do that? But he said, once I got behind the scenes, I realized, look, they're not haphazard about doing things. There is a reason for certain decisions. And yes, there are going to be challenging situations and sometimes creative responses to dealing with that. Those are my words, not Keith's. But there is a reason why a business operates the way it does. And so this seems like a mature, measured approach to say, I have the same questions that everybody else. However, these are the goals that I want to achieve. I want to find ways of examining things and making it better and looking at different things. Yes, certainly he was brash in many of these interviews. I will also point out that he hasn't taken a dime from anybody. Legitimately, he hasn't taken a dime from anybody. This is all his own money that he is fronting to build this pinball machine from scratch or this pinball company from scratch. And so I actually think that, you know what, if he wants to go all out and promise the world, that's fine. It's him. He may be setting the expectations pretty high, but the bottom line is it's not like he's doing it as a smoke and mirrors to take money from people. That's one thing. Two, he has gone out of his way really, and we'll talk about this in the next part, but he's gone out of his way to really rectify a situation that wasn't his situation with the Zidware thing. I understand why, even from a business standpoint, it makes sense. John Papadiuk is a major pinball designer talent. everybody has a designer they like and the bottom line is there are a lot of people who like pop the dukes stuff and so it makes sense to go and get someone who knows how to make interesting layouts the challenge is there was some bad pr in the pinball community that if you're going to hire this guy with a complicated backstory then you also it would be smart to make amends or at least try to rectify the situation the mess that this guy made when he wasn even part of your company I might add And so there's two things he's done. He is trying to start a pinball company from scratch. And to he also has gone out of his way to also clean up somebody else's mess because he wanted to incorporate that designer into it. So already there's two major things. Yes. Is it challenging? Yes. Are there design aspects that you want to improve on every aspect? Yes. And so I'm waiting patiently to see how he's going to rectify these situations because legitimately, again, A pinball company is going to make decisions for legitimate business reasons. And so there's a reason why Stern does their business the way they do. There's a reason why JJP does their business the way they do. Spooky does the things the way they do. And so I'm interested to find his solutions to these challenging problems. I totally agree. So let's move on to the next question. Okay. For consistency, let me keep reading the questions. and you can keep doing it so no one will be confused. Okay, so that was question one. Question two, is there something that Robert of today would tell Robert of the past to do or avoid? It's always irritated me when I hear people say that they have no regrets. We all have regrets. Regrets are an important part of life to learn and grow. So yes, I have a million regrets. And yes, if I had to do this over again, I probably would try to do things a lot differently. If you want one example, I think my desire to try and to help the Zidware customers got in the way of focusing on what was most important. It has sucked time and money out of the pinball project. I don't think I or we will ever get that recognition I had hoped for, for the efforts expanded. Do we need to do it? No. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe yes, but maybe not the right timing. I would go back and tell myself to get pinball launched first, then do the right thing. Wow. This statement kind of like – there's a lot there. There's a lot to dissect because we were just talking about this. He didn't have to do it. He didn't. Absolutely. Yeah. And it sounds like that's what's kind of inhibited them getting maybe the five days of Deep Root last year. I don't know. It sounds like this is what – Well, it's this whole it's this whole fiasco that John Papadiuk created because he wasn't a good businessman. I truly don't think that John Popadiuk is a con artist because that's what Skit-B was. I believe that John Popadiuk fully intended on making a pinball machine, but he didn't know how to do it outside of the design process. And so I think he got in over his head and I think he was trying to do a lot of things. Now, again, Robert saying that he is probably right. I think that his everything he has said before about being brash, being over the top. Yeah, I think that people focus on that as opposed to focusing, hey, this guy brought thousands of dollars to the table to bail out a failed company that wasn't even his company. And think about that. Now, I know people can say, oh, well, he's worth millions or billions or whatever the thing may be. Okay, that's fine. it's still thousands of dollars. And okay, if you think that that's not a big deal, try pulling $4,000 out of your wallet and hand it to somebody. And legitimate, it's the people like saying, oh, well, all the people who do the white collar crimes, they're just spending a few months in jail. Great, you go spend some time in jail and then tell me it's not a big deal. Because I guarantee you'll think differently. And so when people are dismissive of other people's either charitable efforts or business efforts that they have done really with, okay, yes, that move was also to enhance his company, but it was a move that was completely unnecessary. In that he, like, I don't mean unnecessary. I mean, there was no obligation. He had no legitimate obligation to bail this company out. But he did. And it's really to help out – and I completely agree with him when he's saying that no regrets. He's right. I have a billion regrets. I don't necessarily – I embrace those regrets though because I feel that those regrets have made me who I am today. And so flaws, warts and all, that's what's made me who I am today. And I feel like I like who I've become. I like all the challenges have made me grow. Would Scott of today do something differently? Absolutely. Going back in time, absolutely I would go back and do things differently. But it's how you embrace and use those failures that will produce success. And if you're going to start a company, you're going to have a billion failures. I totally agree. So I think that's – it really is – I will be the first on the record to say that him paying off the Zidware people, that is amazing. And really, that should get a gold star banner number one option for me just because, again, he didn't have to do that at all. he could have hired John and he could have had John design games and just left John on the hook too and that would have been totally legit I totally understand that would be a good way of doing it too but he didn't and that's still pretty amazing I agree well I think like you said maybe it wasn't even the right timing to do it you know maybe but it may have been legitimately you hire John Papadiuk off the scrap heap and the pinball mob is out there with pitchforks ready to burn him at the stake and you rescue someone who is actually a great designer and you also make an olive branch to those people. Yep. So, great. I think that the timing may have been inconvenient, but I think it was necessary. I agree. Let's move on to question three. Okay. So question three, you decided to start big instead of other companies who started small and grew. What is the motivation for such a grand approach? go big or go home right i've always done things big and i felt i have a good handle on every aspect of the pinball industry that would warrant that risk it's hard to answer this right now because everyone outside the company knows little to nothing as such i alluded to the forest for the trees in a prior response there are reasons that might seem inexplicable now but will make sense when everyone sees the entire picture the grand picture is beautiful and special to me It's very important to me that with all the effort expended, that we get to share the entire picture with everyone at the right time and in the right way. Besides, no one starting small would ever dent Stern's 80% to 90% command of the market. I think deep roots value proposition, when compared to all the competitors, will speak for itself. And the question of our grand approach will speak for itself. Yeah. I mean, straightforward. Yeah. I agree with him. His personality is not to grow small. He's not Charlie from Spooky. That's not him. He's more of a Jaguar in you with maybe even a bigger startup budget. So, yeah, he's coming confident. And I think legitimately has received some legitimate skepticism about his brashness. And the bottom line is it's still undetermined. So I'm excited to see what he's saying, and he is completely right. Love what Spooky is doing. They're also not going to take a huge dent out of Stern's market. Yeah. The two that are probably taking the biggest dent would be Jersey Jack and Chicago Gaming Company. And compared to how many Stern is releasing a year, that's still – Stern is still the king. They're the boss. They're the ones who are driving the bus. And so, yes, if you are shooting for the top, then, yeah, you have to be bigger. So I hope – he also has a bigger spending budget legitimately. He is funding it himself, but he has a bigger startup budget to be able to maybe accelerate the process as opposed to Spooky, which is a bootstrap organization. They are self-funded, and as we know, it was sketched to start going in the first place. Well, if you haven't watched the Spooky Things That Go Bump in the Night documentary, I highly recommend it. It's an awesome documentary. Buy it off Amazon. Well, I'm hoping that we will find out. Right now, Robert is toning it down and waiting for the right time to do the grand reveal, which is totally smart. So it is what it is. It's good. I'm excited to see what he's doing. He doesn't owe me anything. He hasn't taken any money from me. Yep. Let's move on with question four. with the Houston Arcade Expo right around the corner. Is there anything specific you would like the pinball hobby to keep in mind as we see Deep Root's first pinball machine? I hope you see something that's pretty much on the level where every other game is. We could, if we wanted, sell the prototypes as is and compete one for one with the best of the competition. However, what those games will not have is slash are most of the innovations that we will not show yet. So to answer your question, I hope the hobby keeps in mind that the best is yet to come. Okay, so what he's saying is this is a prototype game that is a great game, but they're still developing some features that won't be available. That's what I take from that. What do you take? I think I agree with you. I think it's saying that there might be some big mechanic. There could be something really cool that goes inside the pinball machine, but we're not going to see that next week. They just want some data of how the game plays. And so I don't blame them. It's not a bad move. We've always talked about this conundrum. It used to be back in the 90s you could drop a pinball machine off at Logan's Arcade in Chicago, whatever it was back in the 90s, you could get two weeks to a month's worth of data out of it, and not the entire world would see it because there wasn't such thing as a cell phone or the active internet that we have nowadays. But nowadays, you've got the internet, you've got – everyone's a journalist, everyone's got Facebook, social media, and so – You have two amateur guys from Utah being podcasters. So it leaves you in a rock and hard spot. How do you get real-world data without revealing all your cards? I think this is an interesting way to do it. It's also a dialed-back approach from when JJP revealed pirates. They blew the doors off of Expo. It was an amazing reveal. And it took a little bit more to get pirates online, and they had to work on some of the mechanisms. So in some things, some of the mechanisms weren't ready for prime time. And I agree with Jersey Jack in that it's time to either fish or cut bait and say this mechanism is reliable enough to go on site or it's not. And there are a few things they decided not to, and they took a PR hit for it. So what I'm taking from this is there are some things that are not quite ready for prime time, and we are going to show you what we can show you, but we don't want to set us up for a triple spinning disc challenge. And by the way, Pirates of JJP, amazing game. Eric knocked it out of the park. People still can't get over the fact that it changed from three discs to one disc. and even though there's about eight other crazy awesome things about that game that no other no other machine had but people focus on the one thing that they couldn't get working effectively enough in in a timely manner for location so yep yep all righty let's go on to uh question five all right also with a prototype at houston will it be streamed for the public no it will be a low-key affair we will have staff on hand to record lots of data and fix any issues i'm sure there will be ample pictures and videos taken by everyone there and posted to social media so i do like this because um that i guess this was the biggest question going into my mind is yes we knew that the prototype was gonna be at houston arcade expo but i didn't know how much of it was gonna be behind closed doors and pretty much like you walked in this room but you got to leave your cell phone at the front door right you know i'm saying and i like this because he is he is giving a he is giving a soft reveal he's saying hey this is a machine it's it's a little bit like the the tna whitewood it's a little bit like a i don't want to say homebrew because i really don't want to undermine what what deep brew is trying to do but what i'm saying is that this is a prototype machine it's not ready for the great reveal but you can get a glimpse of it which would probably be 80% of what is going to be in the game. And it gives us something to see. And I love that it's like I'm not going to deal with this whole non-disclosure agreement thing. We're going to show you the basic prototype of the game and guess what We still going to make it better Great Perfect We got two questions we got two questions left Let uh let wrap this bad boy up You want to give us what is this question Six With the new division of Deep Root Studios in Utah is there certain goals you want to achieve with it that are outside of the pinball realm? Also, how does the Utah site differ from the Texas one? yes deep root studios is an extension of the pinball project but it is also its own creative force it was never meant to be considered solely for pinball i know pinheads would think the statement is sacrilegious but pinball has been and always will be a means to an end not the end itself i think what he's saying is that deep root studios is not the the the sole purpose for making Deep Root Studios is not to create pinball media. It's not to create things for pinball machines. It's a business that part of what he's doing will be to make all the animations and all that stuff for the pinball machine, but that can't be their only job. And I told him at the end of the interview, I'm like, we do live in Utah, so if you ever want us to swing on by and say hello, we'd be welcome. Ta-da! I'm more than happy to. Yeah, exactly. That's what I was saying. Hey, Robert, come to Utah. We'll come and meet you. I'm down the street. I could drive to Deep Root Studio in 20 minutes. I'll be right there. Let's take you to Crown Burger, you know. Jeez. Wow. Yeah. Okay, Crown Burger is good. I'm just saying I'm hoping we can take him to something nicer. Okay. All right, last question. With all the veteran talent on Deep Roots' roster, are you concerned that your company will be stuck in the pinball designs of the past? If not, what are some of the things your company is doing to push pinball further into the 21st century? LOL. I'm sorry. I had laughed. I'm sorry. I had laughed. I had a laugh. I'm sorry. I had a laugh out loud when I read this question. Any who have seen what we have been cooking, whether hired or third-party visitor, have been blown away by the sheer level of innovation in each game. There's a reason why the 90s William Bally games are still some of the most beloved. The production level and the balance of elements were spot on. We build upon the perfect recipe. Each of our first 13 games will have multiple unique innovations never before seen in pinball. and then add in innovations on top of the Williams-Bally era and current machines. We can't wait for you to experience why pinball can and should be redefined for the next century. Woo. Yeah. I'm refreshed because I thought that Robert was a little over the top and brash at the beginning. I still feel it's his right to do that because again, he didn't take any money and he's starting a company this seems a more measured approach, but he still is confident and so I like that he is still confident he is still committed to the product and he is still excited to show us what he has. This seems to be also closer to the end of the production line, and he probably has something to show us now, as opposed to a few years ago when it was more of a grand idea. Well, what's crazy to me is it says 13 machines. So are we, I kind of wish he would have given us a timeline, which I know he's not going to, but. If you think about it, if you're competing with Stern, this is me projecting. I don't have any inside information. I've never met Robert. But if you're competing with Stern, how often does Stern release a game? About every three months, right? Cornerstones every three months. Okay, three to four months. And so if you're going to be attempting to compete head-to-head with Stern, then it makes sense that you will try to release every three to four months. And so he has 13 machines that are in development. I actually guarantee that Stern has 13 machines at any given point in development. Yes, each team is developing one at a time. I totally get it. And so there are probably four or five that are in process at the time in Stern, but they're also still working on future releases at the same time. And so that's not out of the – when people say 13, he's not – guys, he's not going to release 13 in one year because the money is not out there. You're not going to be able to sell 13 machines. Well, and we went over it last episode about how many machines have been released just this year alone. I think we said six. There's been three quarterstones and then the other three that aren't part of the main line. Well, you're just talking Stern. Correct. Just Stern. Plus, we still have rumor of Brian Eddy's game coming out before the end of the year. So, I mean, 13 is unrealistic for a two-year span. Yeah. And any business is going to be that way. Any business is going to have a plan and be able to do things. And if you look at all the designers they have, they have Perry over there. They have Dennis over there. They have John over there. So they have all these designers who have done it before. And remember, I will point out that Dennis Nordman left Highway Pinball because the guy was promising things that Dennis didn't agree with. Right? He left. He said, this is unrealistic. This guy's up in the night. I'm out of here. And he left that dumpster fire early because he said, this guy's crazy. What has Dennis done since going to Deep Root? he has said nothing, which means that nothing I, I would just, I would just counter. That's a completely different response than what he had with highway pinball. He, he is with a, a brash owner. And by him staying there and working on things, I will take that. I will interpret that to mean that he is saying, this is a good place. I am in it. And I, Barry, Barry's there too, and Steven Bowden. So all these people that I have – I know about in the pinball history over the last 20 or 30 years, they're there. And if they didn't have faith in it, they would leave because there are other pinball manufacturers out there. Yep. There are. and Dennis is as Martin from Head to Head put it he's kind of the mercenary of pinball he's been almost at every pinball company in the last five years you follow your opportunities right and he has followed an opportunity down there and at least no one as far as I know no one has jumped ship so if anybody jumped ship that usually is a sign that things are things are not kosher in the company nobody's jump ship and so they are still all in so i am all in and i'm excited which is why i am going to the texas pinball festival because i want to see the stuff in person i agree well i'm like i said houston arcade expo is next week we really appreciate robert answering our questions i know there's going to be a ton more after friday of next week um but i just want some preliminary thoughts something a little wet our whistle before we walked in you know uh the last interview he did was in september with twip and so i just i think a little bit of a hype so i'm excited uh cautiously optimistic right and i'm glad that he was able i these feel very candid real responses they don't feel like he's trying to this feels like i am talking to someone and they are telling me yes there are challenges yes we're trying to do things and dare i say yes he's realized that pinball is not easy okay um but it seems that he is still confident in the product and it doesn't feel like a hype man you know it's it's a hey look at what we have we have something great so great let's see it awesome all righty well we got a little bit of other news oh before before we move on though sorry. Uh, we are working in collaboration with this weekend pinball. So, uh, by time this releases, there should be a little bit of a writeup to kind of what we discussed with Robert on this weekend pinball. So keep an eye out for that. Or if you're coming from there, Hey, thanks for coming and listening. Yeah. And if you're hearing us and you don't know about this weekend pinball, how did you find us? Cause Jeff at this weekend pinball does way more work than we do. that man 40 hour week on top of his 40 hour week he works and then it's pinball it's crazy so good good for jeff hey um in other news um i'm gonna i'm gonna hold off for we're gonna talk about toppers but we're gonna move that to the end because that's part of our little little thing we want to do later um just want to say congrats to jerry bernard for winning the 24-hour sanctum awesome job that's got to be quite the crazy rush sucks for everyone else but hey good job so it doesn't suck for everybody else hey you gotta play pinball for 24 hours even if you're lowest on the totem pole you had a good time and if you didn't have a good time you did something wrong yep i agree i agree i don't know if i i just think if i made it to the end of a 24-hour pinball tournament i would either be so delirious that I don't remember anything happened or I'd be, I'd be like hysterically upset because I'm like, I did that for that long. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I've never done it. So, okay. You know what? Um, yes, I, I would guarantee that there are probably legitimately five people who entered that tournament who had the best shot at winning. Okay. Anybody could have won, but the high rank people, uh, continue to, to do well. Now, a shout-out to the two people that I knew in there. We had Bowen, who finished second, and we had Joe Lemire, who finished – what did he finish? Six? I don't know. I know he posted it. But shout-out to Joe Lemire from the Head-to-Head Pinball Podcast for – they competed and they did a great job. So it's an accomplishment, and you've got to compete. And guess what? If you didn't win, you had some experience. So great. Yep. Speaking of congratulations and epic awesomeness, Eclectic Gamers Podcast had their 100th episode, which is awesome to say. That's great for Anthony and Dennis over there. They keep saying it's just a number, but seriously, it takes a little bit to get to 100. When you get to 100, that's usually when podcasts either die or continue. It really is. and you've been at it for a few years and you've put a lot of effort into it. And if you're able to continue to move on and they seem to be moving, they seem to be still with a full head of steam. So good for them. And it, it, it takes, okay, we do the podcast because we're having fun. Okay. We're not making any money. In fact, we're spending money to do this. But, and we are so grateful for anybody who wants to join the conversation with us and, and be part of this. And we've met a lot of really awesome people and we've, But we have a lot of vicarious hats walking around out there. But, I mean, it's amazing that they were able to do that for 100 episodes. I mean, just think about that. Any hobby that you do that lasts more than a few years, that's actually a pretty big accomplishment. And having the support of a significant other, a family, or even if you're alone and that's just what you're committed to, amazingly a commitment to that. well and and with their format they do every two weeks kind of kind of what we try to adhere to but we're not very married to the suggestion i guess there's more of a guideline but every every every two weeks that means that's like a little over four years worth of episodes so that's that's awesome guys so all right um the last two highlights which will bleed into our uh the topic we want to cover tonight um there's toppers there's toppers out there toppers i had i had you watch the alice cooper nightmare castle topper what did you think i think it's ghetto fabulous it it it really does look like a project that um that a group of people is like okay you know it looked like something from um like one of those cooking shows where you have a few hours to come together with something here's your here's all your uh here's all your uh different things to put together and go and it looks fantastic i mean it it is it is perfect for a spooky uh a spooky pinball machine and i love the googly eyes the googly eyes are great see that's i don't know that's kind of where i differ i'm like i i love the concept of it i like the idea of a topper being integrated with the machine like this one tracks modes uh the brain tracks the ball movement so it's really cool that it's doing that um i just i can do without the googly eyes but other than that it's it's cool i like it no i'm sorry you are so wrong i'm gonna file i'm gonna file your googly eyes with your aquavats it's let's do uh one big you know i how about that yeah like a cyclops like yeah that'd be awesome that would be a great nod to uh to Roger Sharp to have the Cyclops on there. Yep. So, and then the other topper that came out at pinball expo was the medieval madness topper. Yeah. And nothing but positive responses. It's, it just, it's a good looking topper. Well, I, you have that. Hey, we are not the first to say it. And in fact, we're pretty late to the party cause we didn't record, but it was the expo of toppers. You have a, you have Alice Cooper's nightmare castle. You have the black night topper, which could be the coolest topper I've seen, and you have Medieval Madness, which is very similar to what the Monster Bash LE topper is. It's a static topper, it's not moving, but the way they have illuminated it looks fantastic and the sculpt looks so great So it a way of enhancing your pinball machine It a way of enhancing your experience Yeah, I agree. Well, speaking of enhancing experiences, let's move it into our topic we're going to talk about. Okay, let's go. Let's talk about mods. I mean, there's a whole array of mods out there. Where do you even start? What's your thoughts on mods? Okay, there's a broad spectrum of modding a pinball machine, just like modding a car. And remember when we were talking to Chris from High End Pinballs, High End Pins, excuse me. He's the one who we asked and said, okay, so how do you choose which mods go in? And he said, look, you have to make sure it's a quality mod, like a high quality option. And so that way it fits with the machine. And so, okay, that's my take on it. I also have people who have, you know, it is your machine. So if you want to put pink rainbow sparkles on it, you go put some pink rainbow sparkles on it because it is your machine. And if it works with your enjoyment of the machine, great. Go ahead. Make it fun. Um, there are some things that I think work better than others, especially for resale ability. Um, the things that I think work really well. Um, I like toppers. I think toppers are great because visually they grab your eye. It's, it's fun to see. I would say about half of my machines down here have toppers and it's just fun to see, especially the, the lighting interaction. It's just one more aspect that draws me into a pinball machine. I also like powder-coated armor. There's a great thread on Pinside that talks about show us your powder coating. And there are different machines, and it's amazing how powder coating will change a machine's look. I will use an example. One of them was Dirty Harry, and I never thought that it would work. but a guy used like a pink purple color for the chrome, not the chrome, the armor. And I initially thought, well, that will look weird. And I thought it looked great. There were some people who didn't like it, but I thought it looked amazing. So toppers and powder coating. There's a reason why when you buy a high-end pinball machine like an LE or something, they usually include a powder coating option and a topper option because those things really do contribute. What are your thoughts? What do you say the great options and what do you say is like give or take? Sorry, I just talked. You're totally fine, man. You're totally fine. So I'm more of the frugal type. There are some that I think that are great. Like, I love the mods that were supposed to be in the pinball machine. Like, if you guys haven't checked it out, there was originally supposed to be a diverter in Stern's Spider-Man on the right side. And when you lit Spider-Sense, the diverter would open, the ball would go back into the shooter lane, and you'd get some kind of bonus or whatnot. And for whatever reason, it was a build of materials or whatever. Okay, I actually – I did not tell you this. I actually have the answer to that. Okay. Did I tell you that? No, you don't. I actually – yeah, I actually messaged Steve Ritchie and I said, hey, I was looking in my – because if you look in the programming, it actually has that option. and I just sent it to him and I said, hey, I saw in the settings was there going to be a gate that goes back into the shooter lane? And Steve actually said it was considered but abandoned. So I didn't really say why because I know they actually have that in Star Trek. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so maybe it didn't affect the, it didn't increase the value of the flow of the game. I can't imagine that being that expensive. No. But it certainly is a – it's a fun way of changing the way it is, and so it gives you options. Well, and I used to be like, I want color DMDs for everything. But I got talking to Dan Newman, our resident tournament director and whatnot, and he's like, why? That's $400, and then that's $400 you could have towards another pinball machine. I'm like, dang it, he's right. Okay, okay, okay. I'm going to counter Dan on this, though. Okay. You can buy a color DMD and you can put it in your machine and you can take it out. Yep. That's actually one of the mods that's reusable. I think when it comes to mods, if it somehow is aesthetically pleasing or enhances the game, I'm all for it. I've seen some questionable mods. I saw No Good Gophers where the whole apron was AstroTurfed because it's a golfing game, so you've got to have fake grass in there, I guess. It's kind of ghetto fabulous, actually. It's something to me to buy a golf cart topper for a cake and glue it into a pinball machine. It doesn't rub me the right way. But mods like, I don't know, I have the data East Jurassic Park. The T-Rex inside that game does not match Jurassic Park. It's tan and brown, and it looks nothing like T-Rex from the movies. There's a gentleman on Pinside that's been making a new T-Rex that looks just like the T-Rex from the movies. It's a wonderful mod. If I had the cash, I would probably do it. It looks like it bounces anywhere from $400 to $500, depending on how much it does in batches. yeah that that's really cool but that is really committed to a game that's not that correct well it's a good game it's just clunky okay which jurassic park would you rather have that's not fair though that's like why is that not fair because they've had years to decide what they wanted to do different on that okay is your is your money much different you're gonna okay so So you have, what is a Jurassic Park going for now? $3,000? Yeah, $3,000. A Data East one? Okay. So I would argue, would you rather take a $3,000 game and put another $500 into it, or would you rather spend $2,000 to $2,500 and get a much better game, a newer game? Yep. So yes, the argument is actually valid. I appreciate people who do amazing mods. There are some mods where I'm thinking, okay, that's cool. I'm not sure if it's that money-wise cool, but it's cool. Well, and I think that's what comes down to mods for me is I just – maybe I go through pinball machines too quickly. I just – I don't want to mod a machine and then turn around and try to sell it. And I don't feel like a mod adds any value unless if you're a color DMD, because someone can easily say, hey, take it or leave it. I'll pull it out and put it in another machine. Right. Yeah. Well, with mods, it is really a labor of love. It really is. Like I've told you before, I bought my Tron and I sent it off to Gio, who used to be the main guy at Pinball Refinery with Steve. But Gio did an amazing job. My Tron looks absolutely amazing. No one's going to ever pay that money that I put into it to modify it. Nobody. I think there's someone that would, but that's besides the point. I will say, legitimately, I don't think you could find a nicer Tron out there. Like mine has, it has the LED OCD, it has the GI modification, it has the LED back interactive backlight on the 3D Translight. We put chrome with laser cut backlit armor on it. It has under lights. It has the rope lights on the ramps. It has the Tron, that dumb Tron-like arcade game, the one that looks like the real one, not the crappy one they put in there. And that costs as much as one of those arcade one-up machines, that stupid mod right there. And it looks amazing. But again, you're not going to get your money's worth. I'll just put it this way. If you're buying mods, you may be lucky to get half of it back when you sell it. And that's if you sell it to the right person. So, I don't know. That's my thing. I think mods are pretty. I like them. I think there's some wonderful people out there like the Modfather or – Oh, Measel Mods is great. Back Alley Creations. I mean, there's some wonderful mod companies out there. I just – I don't know. Like I said, I chew through pinballs so quick. Or I buy, like I've got an Attack from Mars remake and I've got a Monster Bash remake. There's nothing I'd add to it because I feel like it's right where I want it. Yeah, those machines are basically, it's like the customized machine for the people who don't want to customize themselves. And that's fine. Hey, I am happy if I can buy it and it's done well. Like I am so excited about this medieval madness topper because I looked for a topper for medieval madness and I didn't find any that I liked. Yeah. So I'm excited for this one. I'm right there with you, dude. This, this thing looks sick. So yeah, so yeah, that's my thoughts. I just, I have a hard time bringing myself to buy mods. So unless if it's led inserts, then pop those bulbs in all day, dude. There you go. So, well, cool. All right. So what are we looking forward to coming up? So, Houston Arcade Expo next week, so 15th and 16th. We'll be looking out for prototypes there from Deep Root. It's getting later, can you tell? Yeah. The other question that popped in my mind today was how's Stern going to play it? They're probably not going to announce in the next week. Or maybe they will. I think it's still a lot of thunder. I don't know. it's you're you're looking at it from a manufacturing standpoint so you're still building the elvira's you're sending them out and elvira is a little bit of a niche game again we we've talked about this where it's you know um it it's it i was okay i'll just put it this way in 2019 elvira is a challenging uh it's a challenging theme yeah and i'm glad i'm really glad for Cassandra that it's received so well. I'm a little surprised by that. Um, but they still have to build those and they still have to send those out. And I'm not sure how many, like how many LVIRs do you think they'll sell? 1,500, 2,000 maybe? It's still a lot compared to other companies. You know, you got, no, I get it. I get it. But what I'm saying is that they still have to make those, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so they, so they still have to make those and send them out. and then they also have to get everything set up for the next game. And so, yes, it's not a cornerstone, it's not a kapow title, but it's kind of a cornerstone and kind of a kapow title. So it will be released at some point, but I would be surprised if it's... I would target either 1st of January or 1st of... sorry, 1st of December or 1st of January. Oh, yeah. Well, and speaking of Stern Machines, not this week in pinball, head-to-head, talked about with Mr. and Mrs. Pin this week, John Borg is the one that is designing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And if that's the case, we did the timeline last week. That means Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles could be out here in March or sooner. Probably. Yeah. Yeah, likely the Brian Eddy game is coming out, and then likely Borg is next up. Yeah? Yeah. And then maybe somewhere in there is if Gomez wants to design a game too that he's working on, then there's the Gomez game, and then you're looking at a Ritchie game, and then you're looking at an Elwynn. I think it is a crazy amount of talent they have in designers there. And that is certainly not meant as an insult to any other company because I just went over the crazy amount of good designers that Deep Root has. And JJP, they have Eric, they have… Pat Lawler. Pat Lawler. And those two right there are doing amazing things together too. It's just one amazing time at pinball. Oh, it really is. Yeah. it's the only time in pinball history that can support 35 pinball podcasts all at once. I'm just kidding. Yeah. 35 you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Somewhere on there. It's probably plus from there, but, but yeah, man. So, well, cool. I think that covers pretty much everything we want to talk about. Okay. All right. Well, hopefully we'll, we'll be able to record next week and we will do a recap on the Houston and just our thoughts on deep root. So we'll finally get to see something. So it's not the, the five days of Deep Root, it's like a mini preview of Deep Root. A little taste testing. If you want to contact us, you can reach us at Loserkidpinballpodcast at gmail.com or you can hit us up on Facebook. Also, we are on Instagram, so you can check us out there. We did just get a fresh batch of hats put back in, so if you want to hit us up there, you can hit us up through the Gmail account. They are $25 plus shipping. I think it's roughly about seven bucks if you're in the United States. If you're outside of there, we'll talk about it. Exactly. Other than that, man, I think that wraps it up for us. Alright, well you guys have a good week and hopefully we'll be able to record next week. I agree. Same to you, man. No man can get it. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 607e9f89-df7e-4bc5-9d3f-7b5f29442907*