# DPP #64 "Spooky Pinball Interview"

**Source:** Don's Pinball Podcast (regular feed)  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2023-08-25  
**Duration:** 52m 55s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/donspinballpodcast/episodes/DPP-64-Spooky-Pinball-Interview-e28gf0f

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## Analysis

Don interviews Bug and Luke from Spooky Pinball at their Benton, Wisconsin factory on August 24, 2023. They discuss current production of Scooby-Doo at 28 games per week, recent Total Nuclear Annihilation rerun, supply chain recovery post-COVID, in-house manufacturing capabilities, game design philosophy and testing, and their decision to remain a boutique manufacturer rather than scale to corporate levels.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Spooky is currently producing 28 games per week — _Bug, directly to Don: 'production could not be going any smoother for us right now. We've been cruising at just 28 games per week.'_
- [HIGH] Scooby-Doo production is past halfway complete — _Luke: 'we're probably just tipping past halfway, I think' in response to Don asking if they're halfway through the build_
- [HIGH] Total Nuclear Annihilation rerun had 250 units produced with only ~11 remaining — _Don: 'There's only like 11 of them left, so' referring to unsold TNA units from the rerun_
- [HIGH] Steel costs spiked during COVID from $2,500 to $11,000 per load — _Bug: 'there was sometimes during peak COVID where, like, steel that we were purchasing for, like, $2,500 was, like, coming in at $11,000 a load'_
- [HIGH] Spooky has more than doubled in-house manufacturing capabilities since COVID — _Bug: 'we've more than doubled the amount of things that we do in-house' from COVID era to now_
- [HIGH] Spooky has approximately 50 employees with near 50/50 gender split — _Luke: 'we have a ton of women who work for us as well... We probably have almost 50... honestly like a 50 split'_
- [HIGH] Most Spooky employees have been with the company 2+ years, with several at 5+ years — _Don and Luke discussion: 'Most of our employees have been here two years or longer, and there's quite a few who have been here for five... Seth's been here six, seven years'_
- [HIGH] Scooby-Doo continues to sell daily to distributors — _Luke: 'every day, like the first thing I got today when I woke up this morning is a text from a distributor that was like, Luke, I sold two more Scooby-Doos'_
- [MEDIUM] Spooky uses Terry's standard pinball balls from a 10-year supplier relationship — _Bug: 'Terry's been supplying all of our parts for 10 years now... he sources the best quality balls, I think, that he can source'_
- [MEDIUM] Spooky has three games in development simultaneously — _Don: 'from what you told me is true, you do have, I think it sounds like, about three projects that are in development now' (Spooky neither confirms nor denies explicitly)_

### Notable Quotes

> "Production could not be going any smoother for us right now. We've been cruising at just 28 games per week."
> — **Bug**, early in interview
> _Confirms Spooky's recent production ramp and operational stability; notable for 2.8x increase from ~10/week mentioned during Scooby launch_

> "overall, like, just our grip on the whole company production, everything has been better now than I think it's ever been in our company's history. We've really found our stride."
> — **Bug**, early interview
> _Indicates Spooky has overcome post-COVID supply chain and production challenges; signals operational maturity_

> "It's been, like, eerily smooth, like kind of scary. Like you come in every day and everything's just so calm and everyone's happy."
> — **Luke**, early interview
> _Reflects contrast with earlier chaotic COVID era; suggests employee morale and workplace culture are strong_

> "we've more than doubled the amount of things that we do in-house... from that time to now"
> — **Bug**, supply chain discussion
> _Key strategic pivot to reduce dependency on external supply chains and shipping vulnerabilities_

> "2021, that year where COVID was kind of just starting to slow down, but we also just put out Halloween was the longest year of my life."
> — **Luke**, COVID production discussion
> _Halloween era identified as critical growth and learning period for Spooky's production scaling_

> "we don't have to sell 10,000 games. We don't need to. We can just keep doing the cool stuff that people otherwise wouldn't get to see"
> — **Luke**, boutique vs scale discussion
> _Defines Spooky's strategic positioning: intentional boutique/niche focus rather than mainstream growth_

> "every time we put out a new game, and if the previous one is sold out or not, 100 people show up and ask for the previous one."
> — **Luke**, demand discussion
> _Illustrates persistent demand for sold-out titles; creates temptation to run multiple SKUs simultaneously_

> "not every pinball company has to make 10,000 machines in Chicago. They just don't."
> — **Luke**, relocation/scale discussion
> _Explicit rejection of industry consolidation pressure; defense of regional manufacturing model_

> "I mean, how many pinball companies have started and failed? Or how many pinball companies are out there that are still in the negative or in trouble, you know, release after release?"
> — **Don**, business model discussion
> _Acknowledges Spooky's rarity as a sustainable independent pinball manufacturer_

> "Luke walked up to it. I swear, on his first three games, he just found it in two shots, and he was like, guys, this mode sucks... We literally just had to completely rework the entire way the mode functioned."
> — **Bug**, game design testing discussion
> _Illustrates Spooky's rigorous playtesting philosophy: hiring people to break games intentionally to catch design flaws_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Spooky Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer based in Benton, Wisconsin; currently producing Scooby-Doo at 28 games/week; ~50 employees; known for horror-themed and licensed IP games |
| Bug | person | Co-owner and creative director of Spooky Pinball; interviewed alongside Luke; handles design playtesting and game development oversight |
| Luke | person | Co-owner of Spooky Pinball (full name not provided in content); handles production, distribution, and business operations; interviewed by Don |
| Don | person | Host of Don's Pinball Podcast; conducted in-person factory interview with Bug and Luke on August 24, 2023 |
| Charlie Emery | person | Founder of Spooky Pinball; established original business formula that Luke credits with company's success |
| Scott Denisi | person | Game designer credited for Total Nuclear Annihilation; independent designer who worked with Spooky on TNA (referred to as 'Scott Danesi' in one instance, likely transcription error) |
| Ben Heck | person | Spooky engineer/coder mentioned in KB; not explicitly discussed in this interview but referenced in context of code team |
| Seth | person | Spooky employee; has worked at company for 6-7 years since Rob Zombie era; represents long-term employee retention |
| Morgan | person | Spooky staff member; handles tour scheduling and customer contact; mentioned as point of contact for factory tours |
| Terry | person | Pinball ball supplier with 10-year relationship to Spooky; provides 'Terry's standard pinball life' pinballs for all Spooky machines |
| Scooby-Doo (pinball machine) | game | Current Spooky production title; past halfway through build as of interview date (Aug 2023); units in 750-900 range; continues strong daily sales to distributors |
| Total Nuclear Annihilation | game | Spooky proprietary (non-licensed) game by Scott Denisi; 250-unit rerun produced between Halloween and Scooby-Doo; ~11 units remaining unsold; strong demand from community |
| Halloween (pinball machine) | game | Spooky's transitional title from 2020-2021 produced during COVID peak; marked shift from 'larger small company' to 'small larger company'; established new production capacity benchmarks |
| Rick and Morty | game | Earlier Spooky licensed title; referenced as example of pre-Halloween production scale |
| Alice Cooper (pinball machine) | game | Earlier Spooky licensed title; mentioned as pre-Halloween production era reference |
| Rob Zombie (pinball machine) | game | Earlier Spooky game; referenced as production era when Seth began employment (6-7 years ago) |
| The Jetsons (pinball machine) | game | Spooky game with contract design origin; Spooky refined/executed external design; mentioned as exception to in-house design model |
| Benton, Wisconsin | event | Location of Spooky Pinball headquarters and manufacturing facility; regional employment hub drawing workers from northern Illinois 30-40 minute commute radius |
| Don's Pinball Podcast | organization | Podcast series hosted by Don; Episode 64 featured Spooky Pinball interview recorded August 24, 2023 |
| COVID-19 pandemic | event | Identified as inflection point for Spooky's production scaling, supply chain challenges, material cost spikes, and eventual capability expansion |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Production capacity and scaling, Supply chain resilience and in-house manufacturing, Game design philosophy and playtesting methodology, Scooby-Doo production status and sales performance, Business model (boutique vs. scale) and strategic positioning
- **Secondary:** Employee retention and workforce development, COVID-19 impact on manufacturing and material costs, Multi-SKU production capability and feasibility

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.82) — Overwhelmingly positive tone throughout interview. Bug and Luke express genuine satisfaction with current operations, employee morale, supply chain recovery, and strategic direction. Don is enthusiastic and complimentary. No major complaints or criticisms voiced; discussion of past challenges (COVID) framed as learning experiences. Slight friction only in playful banter/jokes about ball humor and parking. Company projected as healthy, stable, and content with boutique positioning.

### Signals

- **[manufacturing_signal]** Spooky increased production from ~10 games/week (Scooby launch, early 2023) to 28 games/week (current, August 2023); 2.8x ramp in ~6 months (confidence: high) — Don references 10 units/week from Scooby launch; Bug confirms 28 games/week current production rate
- **[manufacturing_signal]** Spooky has more than doubled in-house manufacturing since COVID era; now includes CNC routers, laser metal cutters, powder coating across street; reducing external supply chain dependency (confidence: high) — Bug: 'we've more than doubled the amount of things that we do in-house'; Don observed CNC and laser equipment during factory tour
- **[business_signal]** Post-COVID material costs remain elevated but stabilizing; steel peaked at 4.4x cost during pandemic, lumber at 5x; company insulated through facility expansion and in-house ops (confidence: high) — Bug details steel cost spike ($2.5k to $11k), lumber spike ($1.97 to ~$10, now $3-4); describes recovery as part of 'eerily smooth' current operations
- **[personnel_signal]** Spooky demonstrates exceptional employee stability: 50+ staff, most 2+ years tenure, several 5+ years; Seth employed 6-7 years (since Rob Zombie era); ~50/50 gender split; regional employment hub effect (confidence: high) — Luke: 'Most of our employees have been here two years or longer, and there's quite a few who have been here for five'; Seth example at 6-7 years; Luke describes attracting 30-40 minute commuters from northern Illinois
- **[product_launch]** Scooby-Doo production units reaching 750-900 range as of August 24, 2023; past halfway through build cycle; continuing to sell daily to distributors (confidence: high) — Don saw unit 750, observed 900 on factory floor; Luke confirms daily distributor sales; past halfway completion stated by Luke
- **[product_strategy]** Spooky intentionally maintains single-game production focus rather than multi-SKU rotation; pipeline of future games waiting in development; rejects requests for simultaneous runs despite technical capability (confidence: high) — Luke: 'It's just not... would have to really sit down with the whole team'; 'current stance is a hard, I don't know'; describes inadvertent TNA/Scooby overlap as exception, not intended model
- **[business_signal]** Spooky deliberately positions as sustainable boutique manufacturer; rejects scale-to-Chicago pressure; emphasizes quality over volume ('don't need to sell 10,000 games'); credits Charlie Emery's original formula (confidence: high) — Luke: 'we don't have to sell 10,000 games... we can just keep doing the cool stuff'; rejects Chicago relocation idea; Don notes 'formula that Charlie Emery started with that works'
- **[community_signal]** Strong secondary market demand for sold-out Spooky titles; each new release triggers ~100 inquiries for previous model; Total Nuclear Annihilation rerun cleared 239/250 units (~96% sell-through) (confidence: high) — Luke: 'every time we put out a new game... 100 people show up and ask for the previous one'; TNA: 'only like 11 of them left' from 250-unit run
- **[design_philosophy]** Spooky employs intentional strategy of having unfamiliar/unskilled testers ('doofus from down the hall') break games; Luke specifically plays code blind to find exploits; Velma's Glasses mode completely redesigned based on blind tester finding trivial solution (confidence: high) — Bug: 'people who don't know how to play it need to play it because they will figure out how to break it'; Velma's Glasses story where Luke found glasses in 2 shots vs. designed randomness; Bug: 'I usually find the way pretty quickly to play it completely wrong'
- **[product_strategy]** Scooby-Doo introduces novel features not seen in prior Spooky games: action button on lockdown bar, RGB lighting on flipper buttons and action button; each addition requires new production steps and employee training (confidence: high) — Luke: 'on our lockdown bar, we have an action button now. We've never had an action button before... we were like, let's light it, as well as the flipper buttons next to it, RGB'
- **[machine_intel]** Spooky has multiple games in development stages beyond Scooby-Doo; estimated 3 projects in various stages; next game design/feature set represents improvement over Scooby ('better shooting than you before') (confidence: medium) — Don: 'you do have, I think it sounds like, about three projects that are in development now'; Luke confirms 'we have more games ready' and future game will have 'better shooting than you before'; Spooky remains cryptic on specifics

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## Transcript

 Hey, it's Don's for Don's Pinball Podcast here. We got something special here for episode number 64, an interview conducted today with Spooky Pinball, Bug and Luke, man, for August 24th, 2023. We got some new intro music for you guys. I want you to get hype because that flavor's about to hit. Let's go. We'll be right back. Spooky 2, Bug and Luke. So here is an interview in its entirety that I sat down and talked with these guys in the actual factory, in their break room. It was fantastic, a lot of cool information. So I think you all are really going to enjoy it. So put the top down, get the blasted stereo, get the volume going up, and here it is, the entire interview with Spooky Pinball, Dogs' Pinball Podcast, Episode 64. Let's go. Oh, my God, it's my absolute pleasure to be here in the Spooky Pinball compound, Benton, Wisconsin, the jewel of southwestern Wisconsin, I believe it is. I'm here with Bug and Luke in the Spooky Fortress. What's going on, guys? We're doing good. How are you? Oh, pretty good. I mean, it sounds like we've done this before. I feel so comfortable around you guys. Yeah, I feel like we just went through a few things. I don't know. So fantastic. Well, now that we've checked in on all of our equipment, it's working up to standards now. I just wanted to come back and talk to you guys. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast for this conversation. The last time that I heard, you know, kind of from you guys in this format was very early on during the Scooby-Doo release and launch. I remember I was sitting in Culver's eating my, what was it? I believe it was cheese curds. And my wife and I were watching the launch video kind of going over, like, you know, here's what's in the game. Here's what's, you know, we were just getting hype on it. And then at the time, when it kind of followed up a month or so later, your production was about 10 units or so per week. And then now here we are about, you know, we're deep into the build. I mean, I just got butter number 750. I saw a 900 out there. So we're kind of coming up to the mid-range here. Just wanted to check back in and get a production update. Yeah, production could not be going any smoother for us right now. We've been cruising at just 28 games per week. And everything good? Yeah. Oh, yeah, fantastic. Everybody paused and looked at me all of a sudden. I was like, what did I say? No, we were just listening intently. We were so shocked, 28. That's amazing. I'm just not used to people listening this closely. No, production could not be going any better. Like I said, we're doing 28 games per week right now. We're very proud and happy with the quality of them that's going out. And overall, like, just our grip on the whole company production, everything has been better now than I think it's ever been in our company's history. We've really found our stride. Yeah, it's been, like, eerily smooth, like kind of scary. Like you come in every day and everything's just so calm and everyone's happy, and it's just, yeah, you never know. But after all the wild times of COVID and everything like that, It just feels refreshing to be, just feel like you're on top of everything and development pushed out and code pushed out and everything. Yeah, I remember earlier today when I came by, and again, thanks for the invite, I got a tour around the factory here and saw all of your magical Oompa Loompas just hard at work. And I'm sure you're paying them plenty to have that smile on their face, but they seem generally well-oiled here. Teaching them to say, hi, Don, in sequence, that was a process. I appreciate that, yeah. Not every place I go is like that. You know, walk into Burger King, they're like, what you want? Right? I don't get the reception that I've been getting here. We should have rolled out, like, a literal red carpet for them. Just, like, rolled it down the center of the floor. We need to put that in the budget. I mean, would it kill you for some velvet ropes on this one? Yeah. Right? Being the Fortress Wisconsin that it is. So, good. Yeah. So, you're deep into the production now, and you've been kicking up more games, which comes with experience of assembling these things and ironing out problems. I know we were talking earlier, what are your last main builds you did with Halloween? And that occurred during, you know, the COVID times where there's all kinds of uncertainty, especially with parts and everything. And then, you know, I was really shocked when I was able to see that how many parts of the process you've brought in-house here, you know, to combat, you know, ship and delivery issues and product line stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Even just from that, I mean, COVID wasn't even really that long ago. Just from that time to now, we've more than doubled the amount of things that we do in-house. And even back then, we were always kind of bragging a little bit about how much we did in-house. It felt like 10 years, though. Like, that was the whole two years of COVID was just 10. Yeah. Yeah, I always say 2021, that year where, like, COVID was kind of just starting to slow down, but we also just put out Halloween was the longest year of my life. For sure. That was a crazy, crazy time to be around everything because so much changed for us, even just between Rick and Morty and Halloween as far as, like, unit count goes. I mean, we upped production to a level that had never even been in the conversation before when we were in the Rick and Morty and TNA and Alice Cooper days. So and just learning all those new processes and learning all the new issues you can have when you're learning those processes. We've it feels so good to be on the other end of that now and have a really good understanding of everything head to toe for where we need to be. I think that did set us up for the long run, though, like all those things that we did deal with and being forced to learn all that stuff and get better. and the challenges of it every day. Yeah, I mean, there's no, I mean, don't get me wrong, there's better circumstances to learn in. But if you're looking to really make sure you have it down 100%, the best circumstances you can learn in is life or death. For sure. And, yeah, I think that Halloween was really kind of your transition period from, you know, kind of larger small company to small larger company. Yep, 100%. I like how you phrased that. Yeah, right. You know, I mean, at some point there's got to be that transition spot, and that's probably what it was. And just walking around the spooky campus now of, you know, multiple buildings and kind of you can spin around 360 degrees in the middle of the street and see a revolution from, you know, we had this building and then this one and then we shouldn't have sold this one. And then, yeah. Are we still a boutique company? Does anybody know the answer to this? I think so, to an extent, because, like, I mean, we don't have to grow to that, like, corporate overlord level. Like, we don't have to do those things. We're just doing what we love to do and making a living. You know, we don't have to sell 10,000 games. We don't need to. We can just keep doing the cool stuff that people otherwise wouldn't get to see and try to do the best job that we can, like just get better at what we're doing. I mean, fantastic. There's going to be a halfway point between boutique and, you know, mainline pinball manufacturers, so maybe like burlesque, and that's where you're at right now. I'll take that. Yeah. But, you know, following up Halloween with a 250 run of Total Nuclear Nihilation, that jewel from Mr. Scott Danesi. I know we're still building it, but I genuinely forget sometimes that we squeaked that in between Halloween Yeah, someone's glossed over it. Like, oh my gosh, so much happened so fast. The speculation at the time was that Scooby was almost ready, but you didn't want to quite jump into production, but wanted something to help fill that line, and there was some demand in the community for it. Yeah, everywhere we went, as far as show goes, people always ask, when are you going to rerun TNA? When are you going to rerun TNA? And it's the only game that we ever said we for sure would rerun, just being as it's not a licensed game or anything like that. It's our own theme. It's Scott's own theme. So, yeah, we were really excited to get back around to that one for everybody. Yeah, I mean, I think at one point Morgan had a, hey, let me know if you guys ever decide to do this again, email list of like 400 people. So, I mean, they're really, and most of them did show up and buy. There's like, so there's only like 11 of them left, so. Yeah, I mean, that's fantastic, you know, and if you would have sold 75 of them, it would have, you know, served its purpose. You put some games out there, but I mean, you nearly eclipsed that second run now. Yep. So this is an interesting game because you can go back to compare it when you made it the first run versus this run and look at what has changed. Is there anything that surprised you as far as the cost of making a play field has quadrupled in the last several years? Oh, don't even get me started. So that was another thing with COVID. And it is – I definitely don't want to say that every price raise in pinball today is justified or anything like that, but the cost has gone up considerably to what goes into the stuff. especially like boards and wiring and stuff like that, harnesses. It's all gone up by that much. It really has. I mean, look at 2x4s pre-pandemic and then during. Like $1.97 2x4 went up to nearly $10. And then now it's down 3 to 4, but it's still twice the cost it was before. It's still higher than it ever was before. So, yeah. Yeah, that stuff is rough. Nobody seems to really benefit from that in the pinball world. No. There was sometimes during peak COVID where, like, steel that we were purchasing for, like, $2,500 was, like, coming in at $11,000 a load. It's just insane. Ridiculous. Yeah. And just a mixture of, you know, increasing demand and then, you know, decreasing supply and just, you know, supply line costs, I would imagine. Yeah. But I've noticed one way you've helped to insulate yourself from that is bringing some of that equipment in here. So I saw CNC routers, you know, laser metal cutters. You're powder coating across the street. so it's not anything that needs to float on a ship somewhere, and then the thing sinks, and then you're out, you know? I mean, it would be cool to do a boat in between buildings, but not practical. We've been talking about a skywalk between our two buildings because we just built the new building across the street, and it would be great if we had a skywalk. I mean, just think of, like, walking out there in the winter and how much safer you would be in a protected, heated hallway elevated above the skyline or some sort of people-mover system or even, like, an indoor-mote hybrid so you can still have the boat but be indoor. I mean, Benton's pretty cool. They'll probably let us. Yeah. But they're not out there to get us. That would be the best ride in town, I think. Besides. All right. So, yeah, so Scooby-Doo Productions has been going good. Are you guys about halfway through the build? Is that where you would imagine your spot here now? No, we're definitely farther than halfway. Yeah, we're probably just tipping past halfway, I think. Yeah. Because, I mean, everybody's always, the perennial question is always, you know, what is your next game, right? And from conversations I've heard from you guys other places, it sounds like you have multiple games in various stages of production. So that way you have your one ready to release. And if you stack it that way with an 18-month, a two-year kind of industrial build cycle, I mean, that makes sense. We're fortunate enough to be in a place right now where we have more games ready. So it just comes down to the thing is, is Scooby still selling? You know what I mean? Like every day, like the first thing I got today when I woke up this morning is a text from a distributor that was like, Luke, I sold two more Scooby-Doos, you know? So it's like we don't know when we're going to be done because we don't know how many more are going to sell. Right, right. So, I mean, all I really want to know is exactly what date and time your next game is going to release. So if you could just give us right now. It should be before noon. Perfect. Okay. I can extrapolate from there. That's perfect. No, it's something I've even talked about on the live streams before. Like we can never say, like, oh, it'll be exactly this day at that point of production or whatever. But we're also incredibly transparent about where we are in production. Like, we always talk about the numbers we're on. We always give a build time and everything like that. People know that when we're done building a game, the next one's probably coming. So although we can't, like, exclusively say it's coming at this point, if you do enough digging online, you can figure it out. It's not terribly hard. I know. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, the other thing is, too, is, like, people can come here today just like you did, you know, hang out, whatever, see the place. I mean, you can see how we're clipping along and what we do and where your game is. It's not like we're like a closed-door company. You know, you can just email Morgan, and you can set up a tour or whatever. We'll hang out. Yeah, and I mean, it was unnecessary but appreciated, that basket of roses at the Holiday Inn Express last night. I mean, that was wonderful, and the turndown service was fantastic. I mean, this town really does have it all. Now, I know when you guys were getting ready for Scooby production, it was also convenient. It was over the holiday period. So, you know, being the generous corporate overlords that you are, you let their staff be off for the holidays. Bless you for that. And then you were able to just kind of retool so that when you came up, it was like, okay, we're Scooby time now. Yep. And that's exactly what we did. I mean, that's literally what we told them. We were like, all right, guys, like, enjoy your week off for Christmas and everything. Because when we come back, like, we are going to be jumping in two feet deep into a whole new game, whole new production, everything. And that's a tough time for them, too. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, imagine every single year at your job when you're doing the same task most every single day. Imagine every 13 months they show up and say, okay, everything you know now doesn't matter. Here's your new thing. And it's like that's always very difficult for people to do. So, yeah, it was good timing with the holiday to, like, give them that week off, really decompress, and then get ready for the new game. Especially because we take those chances, too. Like there a lot of custom stuff that we put into our games that not the same from game to game It not like we just cranking out standard body after standard body with the same exact apron and the same exact this I mean just think about even the changes like just the apron on Scooby How many things had to be retooled and a different part reordered and the employees, I mean, that's all changes for them, you know? I mean, just the simple things like, yeah, on our lockdown bar, we have an action button now. We've never had an action button before. That adds 10 things just there. And then we were like, let's light it, as well as the flipper buttons next to it, RGB. So it's like every single idea and thing we added there, it's like, well, those are all things you're going to now deal with every single day in production. That's going to be new steps that nobody knew how to do the day before. So, yeah, I mean, adding changes like that, it's always super crazy. Yeah, so for an industry like yours, I'm curious, because, like, if you were making a new car, you would have a test track facility that you could build vehicles, and you could test them on your own for six, nine months and get all the parameters and everything. But when you're developing something like apron locks that we haven't seen before, it's not like you can build a couple of games and put them out at Interium in Chicago and let people playtest them for a while and then get feedback and then go into the build because that would kind of spoil what you guys are working on. And we do test them during development. It's just you can't get the testing that you get off of 3,000 plays on location. You just don't. And I've always found the biggest thing with testing, especially the games, is people who don't know how to play it need to play it because they will figure out how to break it. When Luke and I are designing it and playing it and testing things, we know what not to do to not break it. So getting people in who it's completely foreign to and having them experience it and watch them figure it out, it definitely tips off everything that will possibly go wrong with it. That's actually something I've been able to do with code because I'm pretty much hands-off completely on code with those guys. Those guys handle it like there's a whole team of those guys that handle it and everything. So if I walk over and go to play the code not knowing what the mode is or anything like that, I usually find the way pretty quickly to play it completely wrong to break it. He's a master at walking up and doing it exactly the wrong way to break it every possible way, which is infuriating, don't get me wrong. But it is super helpful because then we know all the changes we need to make. It's one of my favorite things to do. So it's not like I want to learn to play the game. It's like I want to learn how else I can play the game. There was a mode that they were playing, and they were all having a ton of fun with it because they were playing it the way it should be played. We could tell them. It was Velma's Glasses. We were in the middle of making the Velma's Glasses mode. And I've talked about this online before, and I'll never reveal what the true secret is. But at the time, it was truly random on finding Velma's Glasses. And we played like 10, 20 games. We were like, this is the best. This is so fun. It's so random. It's so cool. And then Luke walked up to it. I swear, on his first three games, he just found it in two shots, and he was like, guys, this mode sucks. I was like, this is terrible. You've done everything wrong. Like, start over. I hate you all. Throw this away. We literally just had to completely rework the entire way the mode functioned. Because when you're in it, you play it the way it's supposed to be played and the way you're intending, and that makes it so fun. But you have to be able to step back and play it as a person and has no concept of what's going on. So like, okay, let's get the doofus from down the hall. Exactly. Let's find the problems in this. What a refreshing approach to game design. Go get this short, fat guy and tell him to play this now. All right, so I heard from someone online that they ran into a problem with Scooby-Doo, and then you guys and your tech support is amazing, and you were helping this guy. And I guess the problem was he put those shiny ninja balls in his game, and they got magnetized, and so he couldn't classic. He couldn't figure out the problem, why they weren't launching like they should and why they were doing crazy stuff. And I've learned now that I've been in the hobby for a little bit that the balls that a lot of games ship with are kind of terrible. They wear out pretty quickly. They can scratch your play field, so you need to get them out of there. So I'm starting to put those shiny brand-new balls in my games if they don't have heavy magnets. But what are you guys shipping your games with? Do you have a more premium ball than what you would find down the road? Terry's been supplying all of our parts for 10 years now and everything since we've been in business and everything. So, I mean, he sources the best quality balls, I think, that he can source and everything for us. I guess I haven't talked to him about it. It's just pretty much Terry's standard pinball life pinball. And I don't think we've ever had a single issue or complaint about it ever, really. No, there was like a little bit for a while where they were getting like moisture and like rusting during shipping. But we started including like a silica packet and everything in there just to make sure that they didn't get any moisture in there. Is that what those do? Yeah. I thought they just put those in there for you to not feed your cat. No, no, no. You're not supposed to eat those. That's the only thing I knew about them. Why are they so delicious, though? And they pop in your mouth. It's like Pop Rocks, except for I feel funny. Yeah, so my Halloween, I think my balls are getting a little worn out, but I've got hundreds of plays on it, so it's probably just time to do that again. What I mean is my balls are scuffed on the front, and they're not as shiny as they used to be, and they just kind of hang there. but I got a new sack of them I'm going to put them in there if that's okay when you use them enough Don tighter underwear Don yeah yeah so is there any way that I should warm up my balls before I put okay I'm going to stop he told me this is a family show and now he's like he's a liar no swearing guys keep it appropriate oh my god you guys are reading too much into this that's not what I meant at all by the way I have a segment where I talk about my nutsack that's what I call my past anyway There's a whole new segue on here now. Yeah, so, I mean, that's kind of funny, you know, because he was going through the switch tests, and they were all working fine, and you're like, I don't know, and you sure enough pull the balls out, and they're all sticking together. He called you, didn't he? I was talking to him. I think this was literally like yesterday or two days ago. Yeah, no, Monday. Yeah, I was on the phone with him, and we worked it out, and I rubbed it in AJ's face because I figured it out faster than him. Okay, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to leave that one there and not go there, but I want credit for thinking of what I was going to say about rubbed in the face. Ah, yes. Thank you, my guy. Points scored. Yeah, so I was talking to you guys earlier about, you know, European distribution and expansion. Gonzo's Flipperama just did a video. I'm going to copy it over to you guys so you can see it, where he actually compared, you know, the Scooby-Doo CE with a Foo Fighters Premium, like this versus that. And, you know, over here, you know, the prices are fairly comparable. But as far as features, Scooby-Doo is, of course, much more loaded. I mean, you don't have to put in, you know, shaker motors and all these things. It already has sculpts and everything galore. And through the European lens, which I'm learning more about from meeting more people out there, because of the value-added tax that gets added on in shipping, a game can easily cost thousands of dollars more value per value in Europe versus the U.S. But he was actually comparing everything that comes included with your top-end builds with more like a Jersey Jack, which also comes fairly loaded for their builds. But in the U.K. and the rest of Europe, it can be thousands of dollars of difference and cheaper in value in like a Scooby-Doo or Spooky release versus, you know, a JJP or something. So first I just want to make sure that you're aware that, you know, Europe is a place out there if you haven't expanded yet. But from what it sounds like, you do have U.K. distribution and mainline Europe distribution. Yeah, we absolutely do. We do business, I guess, we have Australia and Europe and – Yeah, U.K. I know – Morgan should be in this interview for this. She handles all that. She's a mastermind. She's so much smarter about this stuff than we are. But I absolutely love that man that made that video more than you know because – We haven't even seen it yet. Yeah, because a lot of people don't know it. We get compared a lot to a Stern premium specifically because our CE is about Stern premium pricing and everything like that. But a lot of people I don't think realize, you know, like the powder-coated coin doors and the custom shooter rods and buttons and the lighted buttons and the lighted speaker grills, the free topper. Knocker shaker. Knocker and shaker comes installed in your game. There's just this multitude of like – I don't know what the bill would be if you had to order it. You probably know better than I do because, like I said, you were saying you always have a list of things to buy. But, I mean, you're talking about $1,500 to $2,000 worth of stuff. I mean, custom rails and powder coat and all that stuff to add on to your game. And we're including that in our CE. So I really think that sometimes people don't realize how reasonable it is on that. You're getting a game that is already fully decked out. I mean, even down to, like you said, a ton of sculpts and everything in the game. Yeah, and I mean, when this game was released over the winter, I mean, that was a time when, you know, the LEs had all jumped in price and everything, and then your top end, I was waiting for it. I'm like, okay, $11,500 or something. And then you came in with a price that was still under $10,000. And one of the first things I posted was, like, the value that's in that, you know, for everything that you get in a wide-body game with, like, 92 wire-form ramps in it and all those sculpts and not just flat plastics and not just the sculpts of the characters but that whole castle front, you know, the portcullis that's there, And then the fun upper play field, a cool new flipper, just like all of that. Keep going. Yeah. We actually called the Arizona tea guy who keeps those at 99 cents, and he's been helping us. So budget engineer that, yeah. Has bringing things in-house helped with that? Because at least you know what your costs are going to be. Absolutely. You don't have that variable. For sure. Fantastic. Like I said, raw materials still did spike, but being able to do that ourselves, we're able to absorb some of the costs that I guess retail suppliers would be passing on to us otherwise. That's fantastic. So are you guys doing marketing specific to Europe now, or are you guys finding that the hobby is big enough that people know about you and they're ordering from their distributor? All the way back to even AMH, I think we've always sold all over. We just have distributors who sell games over in that region. I guess we don't really specifically directly market towards them in some specific way. Yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of that. But maybe we need to – I guess maybe people aren't as familiar with that market as we thought. I guess sometimes we hear the people all the time that are in it and are familiar with it, and that's who we're talking to. So we always just think it's like a common everyone knows this is going on type of thing. But, yeah, we sell to all over lots of countries. I'm hearing we should do a European trip. I mean, that's about to launch. We should go hang out in Paris for a weekend. I'll go. Yeah, I mean, I love Europe. I travel out there whenever I can. And we were just there for about three weeks traveling around. And it was right around the launch of Space Hunt that Hex was putting out. And I sent out emails like, hey, guys, I'm going to be in the region. Are there arcades I should hit up or whatever? And I'm making more connections with folks out there. Paris has a big pinball podcasting community too. So I'm starting to learn some French, talk to them when I can. But I see their prices because I follow their Facebook groups for buying and selling. and they're easily like 10% to 15% to 20% higher than what we're seeing here. Absolutely. And they're going for it. So I think that was part of the reason that Hexa Pinball was so attractive, even at that $9,000 price point for Space Hunt. On-site for them. Yeah, it's built in France, so it's cheaper than importing compared to Stern or something. So that's something, and there is this kind of burgeoning market out there, I think, especially if you can find a way to get games there and beat the cost of your rivals, which you're already doing here. And, you know, I'm going to represent Spooky. Don's taking us international. We're going, dude. I got the places all picked out, you know. I just got my brand-new passport all fresh and squeaky clean. I got a great Airbnb in Milan that we stayed at. That was great. We'll talk more about that later. Yeah, so I also asked you guys, you know, do you think you'll get to the point where you would have, like, multiple SKUs where you could pivot and, you know, run Scoobies this week, you know, run, you know, TNA 2 next week, and then your future game throw on and everything? But from what you were saying, you kind of like the model that you're in where you're in kind of one major game mode, build that through to completion, and then by then your next one is going to be ready to release, right? Yeah, we kick the idea around all the time, but it's not like a need-to-do-for-us type of thing. Usually with our releases being in the market and where they are, sales have been really good on Scooby. So it's like we're going to run this for a year, guys, and then we'll try to get you something else. But we've kind of inadvertently done that a little bit with TNA because obviously right now side-by-side we're running Scooby and TNA. I mean, we literally just stumbled into doing it this time around. Again, you know how I was saying it was such a wild time during COVID. It would have been near impossible or so tough during then, but things have been going so smoothly. We were able to just kind of throw in the T&A, and it hasn't been a big thing. Also, with our employees, a lot of these guys have a lot of experience now. So people coming back and doing the T&A, it's like they've already done an entire run of this. They know what they're doing. it's pretty easy for them to just pick that back up. It's kind of like riding a bike, you know? Yeah, I think for the region that you guys are in here, you know, employee longevity seems to be something, especially meeting people today, is something that you have. So, like, your employees are leveling up, you know, and, you know, you pick your employee, you change the game, I guess, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, these are some – you got it, you got it. That took me a second, actually. I was, like, so concerned about what I was going to say. Yeah, you're pre-planning ahead. Yeah, right? I was already thinking about it. No but just having those guys some of them that have been here well guys and girls I should say we probably 50 almost We have a ton of women who work for us as well Yeah it honestly like a 50 split But the experience is huge because you not just training someone who completely foreign to them every single time And here, like, these are full-time jobs for people in and around our community. And even, like, we get a lot of people from the very northern part of Illinois because there's just not a lot of jobs in that region for some reason. Yeah, there's this weird area by us in Illinois where there's, other than gas stations and bars, there's just not a lot of work. So we draw in quite a few people who drive a good 30 to 40 minutes every single day to work here. Yeah, tons of them. Because there's just a 50-mile radius that just doesn't have a lot of businesses, I guess. I don't quite know why. Yeah, I mean, it seems pretty well attended here. I had to park clear at the end of the street. You know, I couldn't even park in that special VIP spot that you guys had roped off for me. Yeah, we take up the whole, like, when everyone's here, we got the whole road blocked off. And boy, do we hear about it. Yeah, people in town do get mad about that sometimes. I thought I was going to get that coveted space between the stack of pallets and the dumpster out front. Some praise took my spot. What's funny is that actually is kind of a coveted space. A little bit. Well, you clean out your car right there, yeah. They fight over backing up in front of the dumpster. I don't know why. So I pressed you guys on what your next game is and everything, and you were just ironclad and tight. But, you know, from what you told me is true, you do have, I think it sounds like, about three projects that are in development now. So, I mean, even if you did, like, say, had the capability to pivot and run another, you know, week or two of, I was going to say Led Zeppelin, Rob Zombie or something. Like, would you even have capacity and space to even do that? I mean, you're already going to be on to your next game, which is going to be, you know, better shooting than you won before. I mean, with the expansion across the street and everything, that helps too. But it's just not. It's just, I don't know. We'd have to really sit down with the whole team and just kind of decide. The current stance is a hard, I don't know. Yeah, right? And the hard thing about it, too, that always makes it so alluring is every time we put out a new game, and if the previous one is sold out or not, 100 people show up and ask for the previous one. So, like, we drop Scooby-Doo, 100 people show up and go, do you have any Halloweens left? And it's like, oh, crap. Guys, we just did this for a while. So it's, yeah, it's a hard I don't know right now. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, we don't need to be a solution in search of a problem here. You know, I mean, it's obviously working for you, especially, like, you know, the calls to, like, why don't you guys relocate to Chicago? Because that's where the well-trained staff is. And you're like, we kind of recreated that here already. So, you know, thanks, but no thanks. Yeah, it's taken a long time to build and everything. And I think we are doing a really good job at getting the infrastructure that we need to get here and everything. And we're supported by the community and stuff. So I just don't see a need. Like, not every pinball company has to make 10,000 machines in Chicago. They just don't. Right. I mean, we're making jobs for people. Like you said, we have long-term employees. Most of our employees have been here two years or longer, and there's quite a few who have been here for five. Yeah. Maybe even longer. I mean, how long has, like, Seth been here? He's been here six, seven years. He's been here since Rob Zombie. Yeah. Like, I mean. That was before I was born. Yeah, right? there's just no need for it it doesn't really matter to us where we build the games like it wouldn't make a difference if we went and build them in chicago it's like great this is just more expensive now yeah right like getting a million dollar lease in a corner in chicago or something like that at least it's not it's certainly not gonna help build materials i can tell you that no yeah and i mean i think you know without having you know billionaire angel backers you wouldn't be existing right now if you weren't doing everything just fine here so i think there is definitely a formula that Charlie Henry started with that wouldn't, I mean, well, I should say it hasn't worked. Like how many pinball companies have started and failed or how many pinball companies are out there that are still in the negative or in trouble, you know, release after release after release. So, I mean, he had the vision when he started and everything like that and it's, it's working for us. So. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, we're across the street from literally where it started. Yeah. Dude, love it. So you had, you know, Scott Danesi did a game. Otherwise, everything's been designed in-house. Yeah. Yeah, because TNA would be the only game. Well, no, Jetsons was technically a contract design. Yeah, because they did the design, but I guess we kind of partially helped with setting it up. We refined it and made it real, but it was technically like their layout and everything like that. Yeah, but other than that, it's always been pretty much all in-house. either, I mean, company history designs would be Ben Heck, my dad, Charlie Emery, Scott Denisey, and you and I. So. Yeah, I think that's it, right? Yep. And you seem to have, you know, the design team covered. I mean, you're not looking for like a wayward designer homeless to come by and say, you know, hey, I've got this game I really want to make. No. It's basically Game of Thrones 2, but with Ghostbusters influences, you know, can we make it at your company? Yeah, no, we're not really in search of that for now. I mean, if a designer that was like a great designer came up and was like, hey, I want to do a game with you guys. I can name a couple. Yeah, right? If Keith Elwin walks in the door and is like, I want to work for you, we'll take it. He's just a shizzle-like Terminator. Tag Keith in this post. Yeah. Keith, you have a home here. Yeah. Actually, I saw that you had a name plate up on this chair across from me for him, too. So that's a nice touch. He'll appreciate that if he comes by. And I saw that the new building across the street looks fantastic. The concrete looks cured. It's got walls. It's even got pigeons already. Yeah. Oh, my God, the pigeon, man. I can't get him out of there. They keep finding a way in. So when are you guys moving in there so that pigeon doesn't get squatter's rights and tie you up in court? We're going to take our time, I think, because that's going to be a really nice return to more of a traditional line. So the games are going to get started on one side of the building. They're going to be started, and on the other side of the building, they're going to be shipped out the door in a more conventional pinball line again. And when we moved to this building that we're in, it had all the rooms and different areas we needed for making parts and the infrastructure for the equipment and everything like that. But actually, we had to compromise a little bit on the actual pinball assembly area. We actually had to build kind of another smaller building to do that. And by having all of the pinball assembly in a separate building away from, like, the dirty parts manufacturing and everything like that and just in its own streamlined, clean, straight line and everything, again, I think will be a huge advantage. Perfect, yeah. And, by the way, I think the hot tub and the tiki bar, they're tucked away in the corner there. I mean, just a nice touch. I mean, as a fringe benefit for the employees. I mean, you know, that's just the spooky difference. There's a limit, though. Like, 15 of them we're trying to get in at once, you know? It'd be not enough water for everybody there. Now, are you going to go switch off here one day, switch on there the other day, or are you going to take some time to restructure and move everything? We're absolutely taking our time and planning it. We're trying to be as surgical as possible with the setup of the other building. Yeah. But we need it to be to the T exactly what we want to do when we get up there. So it's not a rush when we do do it. Ah, doo-doo. I almost made that joke. I could see it in your eyes. I was waiting for a latex surgical glove joke I was going to drop in. When we do get to it, I expect it to go pretty quick, though. All right. Do do. Yeah, we'll spend months setting it up, though. It's not going to be a thing where we're going to rush up there or whatever, because we're doing fine in the building. It's not like that. Production is great here. We want it to be an advantageous improvement. So we want to take our time and do it right. Perfect. So I heard rush twice. I'm going to take that as a hint that you're going to actually acquire that license from Stern and do it. Rush two, actually, yeah. And because it's Rush, you're going to have seven-eighths of a play field for the seventh-eighth time signature. We've never cut down the play field before. We tend to add on top of it usually. All we've done is extended it, widened it, added more on top of it. Blown through the backboard of it. I think it's time somebody went to the design of Banzai Run and made a modern recreation of that so you can play the entire game in the backbox and the score is actually down in the cabinet. Flip it on its head. What do you think? We've talked about backbox features. Yeah, I've always liked Backbox features. I think they're cool. I just don't know if people want to see that added up, because, I mean, obviously that has cost too, right? So everything in Pitball is like, do we want to add the cost of that? And then is it a pro or con for the majority of people? I think for sure con. I was just making that up as a bad idea. Well, we were convinced. If people ask us for it, we'll do it. We don't care. I should mention, Luke and I have had some of the worst ideas ever. And it's a miracle that they don't always make it to the case. That's right. We have people for that. That's how you get that gold. There's a famous cartoonist or something that says everybody has a thousand bad drawings in them, so get them out early and then get on to your good stuff. Meaning everybody starts from no skill at all and the way you become skilled unless you're touched by it. We have a lot of filters in place to make sure that we behave. Our team is pretty cool now too as far as different tastes and perspectives on machines. I think that's why you see a lot of our stuff, too. It has, like, some throwback stuff, some never-before-seen stuff, some normal modders. It's just a mix because all the guys kind of, like, prefer different things. Yeah. So they'll, like, see your new idea that's a little off the wall, and they're like, well. Yeah. Okay, okay, we'll refine it. Okay, square balls are out. Yeah. Yeah, no, that would be us. We would do that. What if you bat the flipper around the play field? Throw balls at it. Crossfire. This guy's way more original than we are. All right, so licensing is a question I have. I don't even know what entails that process. Do you just call up a studio or something and say, hey, I want to do a run of Batman 89 or something? Are you guys flying out to Culver City and Burbank and going on to the lot and meeting with the licensor person? I give Mr. Warner a call. I'm like, Mr. Warner, we would like to make Scooby-Doo, and then that's what happens. No, licensing is interesting because it's a very small world. like once you're in, it's pretty easy to find the rest of the people. Everybody over there has kind of worked at every company. They all know somebody who works at another one. They're all willing to help you get to them. It's just getting in the first time is the tricky part. So like for us to get Scooby-Doo, it just so happened to be that we were working with Adult Swim on Rick and Morty, and Warner Brothers bought Adult Swim. So it was like, oh, well, we just got introduced to them without even asking. Like now we work for them, so it's pretty easy to just step off of that and say, oh, well, what do you guys have that we could work on and then start signing Scooby-Doo. So, yeah, licensing, it's a whole crazy world, though, as far as you start getting to all the details and the do's and don'ts of every single IP because everything is also vastly different. There's a lot of personalities and just small legal details you would never even think of. Of course. And rules for IPs that you'd be like, that's a rule? Never knew. But, no, it's in stone. So when I'm playing a game and I think of, like, well, those idiots, they didn't put in this one sound effect that's always there. It's like, you're like, yes, yes, we know. There's, like, you know, there's several layers of legal reasons where we were not allowed to do that thing. And we agree it wouldn't make sense, but, yeah, it just didn't happen. Yeah, I can't tell you how many times that's the case where people are like, I can't believe they didn't put this in. And it's like, guys, I promise you, we or they thought of putting that in. There's a reason it's not there. Yeah. Those guys are so dumb. They didn't even think of putting this in. Yeah. I think we do the work, though, like definitely do the work at this point to get the assets with our licenses. I mean, look at Scooby-Doo. There is unlimited amounts of just all content in there. Yeah, I've been deliberately avoiding playing it on location just because I know I'm picking mine up today. And so I just want to be, like, you know, surprised with everything. But I've been watching the code update videos and just all the modes that will be adding. When I finally get this thing in and play the current code, it's going to seem like a completely new game than I was playing a few months ago. Yeah, and we have a ton of villains still to use. Oh, man, we could. That's the thing. With Scooby especially, we could code that thing until the sun burns out of the sky. There is so much content and characters and mysteries to pull from. I mean, if we were to just do forever code updates on villain cases, that could take us 50 years. Without even getting to Sandy Duncan or the Harlem Globetrotters. Yeah, right. And with four programmers now, too, like future projects being pushed out, Like, Dylan has time when he's coding on Scooby and everything, so we're going to try to leave him on that as long as we possibly can muster up leaving him on it. He does have to code another game someday. Yeah, he does have to start on something else eventually, but we're going to really leave him on that as long as we can. We want people to be happy with the content that we're leaving with, and we want them to get new content for a long time. Yeah, I mean, you know, Halloween was a game, game and a half ago, and we're still getting code updates. There's going to be one this week, I believe, right? Yeah, live streaming new code tonight. Is this going out today? This will go out maybe, this is Tuesday, what is it, August 24th? Sounds great. Thursday. There's a new Halloween code out. It's probably out now, yeah. Go get it downloaded now unless Bugs is asleep at the Switch or something and didn get it uploaded Friday the 25th there will be new Halloween code Thursday the 24th I will be live streaming it So yeah Perfect That amazing So, yeah, you're still supporting those old games, which we like. You're not just like, well, we're into the run, so we're on to the next thing, so whatever is whatever. The ones that we can contractually add stuff to, we're going to still add stuff to. You know what I mean? That's really what it comes down to. We're going to add to it as long as we can. Yeah. Do you have a rough goal of how long you like to have a license active for, or is it just so different between everyone? It's so different between all of them. There's not a standard two-year and then you can push it out? It depends on the studio, really. How many licenses you sign, if it's one, if it's three. There's just so many different variables. We fight tooth and nail for the longest we can. Oh, yeah, for sure. Because that's something people don't understand that much either. is like now people want 12 to 18 months of code in a game before it comes out too, which means we have to negotiate a license, sign a license, which often takes six, eight months, you know, if you're lucky. Then we have to get the physical design done, which is another six, eight months if you're lucky. And then on top of that, you've got to get it to a programmer and get 12 to 18 months of code in it. So by the time we actually get the game done, ready to sell to people, you're already two, two and a half years into a contract. And you have to account for all the crying that goes on during that time. Yeah, and I do a lot of that. And is there a little of like, you know, kind of walking a tightrope if you're like working on design when licensing isn't finalized and there's just that chance that it may not come through? Yeah, we've had to completely scrap layouts before and ideas and everything and completely start over fresh on things because it was like, well, that one might not pan out. We might have to completely go back to the drawing board and reset, which puts things behind. That's why we're in such a fortunate position now. working on so many projects ahead of time that we do for sure have signed up and we already have these actors doing stuff and everything so that's made it a hundred times easier than where we're at like when chuck started the company it was a design one machine launch it and then while you're building that design another machine and hopefully get done by the time you're done building it you know what i mean yeah so like every time it was just when it was a really small company and everything was just flying by the seat of your pants. Like, oh, God, I hope we get the next game done before we run out of this one to build, you know. When it goes to your design process, I mean, are you designing a layout with a theme in mind, or do you kind of come up with some cool ideas, and you're like, this will be good to use somewhere, and then the license kind of develops? It's a bit of both. Sometimes we've done layouts where we knew the license before we ever touched pen to paper, and we've done layouts where we were getting some ideas and mechanisms put on there, and we're kind of figuring out the theme as we go. So it's a bit of both. It's funny. I think one of our best ones, well, what's going to be one of our best ones ever when people see it, it was actually a little bit started with another one in mind very early on. We knew for basically the entire design process what it was going to be, but the first couple months that we worked on it, we thought it might be something else, and it came out really cool. Yeah. You're like, wow, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man really looks good as a Yeti. So I'm glad we changed that design. Yeah. It looks better with fur anyway. Yeah, yeah. It was weird how it happened, but, yeah, it came out really, really neat. I'm excited about that one. With the Elsa wig on there. I'm just imagining you guys are doing Frozen, your Teen Double Disney. It's a dream theme there. Now, when you work with a licensor, do they act like they're a gatekeeper for the license and you're going to have to break through? Or do you show up and they're like, we know these guys want to work with us. We want money. Our product is made to be licensed. Let's negotiate on terms. Or is it a – Depends. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it depends who you're working with. Okay. I know that's such a lame answer for you, but it really does. Each individual company you get is different, and then the representatives you talk to at those companies are very different each time. That's the thing, too. Like, are you working with a specific talent? Or, like, are you working with Alice Cooper? Where you're working with Alice Cooper, or are you working with a studio team? Right. Because it's totally different. and they can be totally on board, like be enveloped in the entire development of it, or some of them are like totally hands-off. Some of them are just like, oh, yeah, everything's good, and then other ones are like totally supporting you at every step, but you just don't know what you're going to get. Yeah, and I think we've seen the breadth of the spectrum just recently too between, you know, like Guns N' Roses had Slash participating in the design. Exactly. You know, here's the assets. I can't tell you how helpful that is. I mean, that's why, you know, you don't have seven songs in the game. You have like 30, you know, and live concert footage, and it's integrated, and it's such a better project, and it serves the license better, too, than, you know, like the 007 release that was released, and I'm sure there was a ton more code that was finished but couldn't be released because it didn't have license or approval, and then it's just been this kind of plotting to finally get to where it is now, and, you know, kind of like the initial exuberance for the machine was hampered just because when it released it wasn't fully featured enough. And we can tell which ones those are, like, behind the scenes. Yeah. Like looking at other companies, like we can tell which ones where they're like fight, like they're battling every day to just get the assets they need in there. Yeah. And you can tell which ones are, they were just totally on board or free reign. Like you can tell, I mean, it makes a difference. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the Galactic Tank Force license holder is probably the best because they've released everything. The fudge pumping, the cows. I mean, there's like everything from that fandom is in there. It sure is. Everything that we grew up with, it was, they were just writing it. They just, they just kept going. Yeah, yeah, it even has the ball-chunking wire forms are there. Like everything, it's feature-perfect. I love it. Love that game. All right, any other news or anything you guys want to plug? We know the Halloween code is coming. I'd asked you before, like, we're going to see a return of the Spooky Podcast, but, Bug, you just started doing live streams instead, and those are getting traction on Twitch. Yeah, I've been really, really happy with the turnout on those as well, and I am looking to kind of do something cross-platform to where maybe I could do Twitch and YouTube at the same time. I just want everybody to be able to see it live so they can partake. Because that's the question we always get is, are you going to do the podcast again? Are you going to do the podcast again? And the short answer is no. What I'd like to do as the replacement is exactly what we're doing with the Twitch. I like playing our old games, talking about them, telling fun stories about them, answering people's questions. at the end of every single stream that I do. I do a Q&A session where you can ask me absolutely anything. That's not a promise that I will answer it, but you can ask me. What color underwear are you wearing? Blue. But, like, we'll have Q&A sessions at the end. It's super fun. But I'm hoping it fills that void for people to where they do miss the podcast. They wish they had that. So I'm hoping to fill that void with the Q&A sessions and the gameplay and whatnot. But like I said, I just want to get it out there for as many people to watch and take part in as possible. Yeah, and I mean that's something like I can't do. I can't speak to what it was like producing these games when they were made. And I definitely can't play them well enough to get the ninth reactor on TNA. Holy garbage. I was watching that live, man. Forget it, dude. Killed reactor eight and then died. Yeah, but then having that live Q&A interaction is good. And for me, I'm able to speculate on new themes and what's going to come on. You obviously can't do that because you don't want to spoil your themes or anything. So I think for you, especially, like, that streaming with the Q&A, you know, serves a lot better than just you recording a podcast and putting it out there. Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing is, like, honestly, full transparency, like, us being a part of this company doing things, we can't just talk about everything we want to talk about. Like, we can't do – we can't really do game reviews or anything like that for other companies, or we can't speculate or things like that because, one, we usually know. And, two, it just wouldn't really work for us anymore. So I think what we have going with the gameplay videos and the Q&A sessions fills the void with what we can actually give you that's a good product. Because if I did a podcast now, I just don't think it would be a good enough product to give to people. I don't think it would be as good as it once was per se. Clearly not to compete with the type of podcast quality that's out there right now. I mean, what would you expect? And that's the thing, too. There are a lot of people just doing podcasts now. I mean, they're talking about all the news and pinball and everything like that. They're doing so great, too. And, you know, there's plenty of room. So anybody thinking of taking the leap, I did. So go ahead. Welcome aboard. Yeah, I mean, I try to listen to as much of it as I can. I don't get to all of it, but, I mean, I try to read every Pinside post in our threads. I try to not all. I can't keep up with all of them. There's no way. I keep up with, like, the newest game, maybe the previous one, but I can't follow all the threads. Oh, yeah. There's just too much, man. There's a lot out there. I squeeze it in to barely manage to listen to every one except minus one right now. So I try to listen to your podcast and everything. Oh, man, shucks. I get the sense that you guys also, and this is important, you guys like pinball too. Yeah. It's not that pinball was what you found that was profitable so you went with it, but you could be just as happy making shoes or something or Birkenstock knockoff. You cannot do this career unless you really like pinball. You've got to want it. If you go into pinball because you're like, that seems like a cool way to make money, you are crazy. Right, yeah. Well, several people have done it, and look where they are now. I was going to say, look how it turned out. I think guys get into it for like this. They think it's going to be like this ego thing or whatever. I'm going to have a pinball company, and this is going to be my fun thing I'm going to do on the side or whatever. It's like you get into this industry. It is not an easy one. It is nuts. Yeah, I mean, you're not making something that you're just coding the software and then printing them up on DVDs and shipping them out or doing online distribution. You can't download a pinball machine. Well, you're kind of like, like I say all the time, Like, we find out if we get to still have our life every year. Right. Every new release that we put out, like, A, we have to retool up. Everything's new. I mean, granted, yeah, there are some things that are still the same from game to game. Like, it's still a pinball machine. I get that. But you're programming, licensing, and manufacturing a new product every single year that you don't know how many you're going to sell. With more parts in it than most vehicles. Yeah. So I always say every year we get to find out if we get to keep having our life. I mean, thanks for doing the work that you're doing, though, and keeping us all entertained. And the more successful companies we have, no matter what size, the more competition that's inducing into the industry, and the more it's spurring on people to do their best, even with the big guys. Because Spooky comes out and they start taking all the orders because they're packing their games with everything. I mean, maybe that'll make them think twice before they pull out a knocker or just put on plain side armor and not a laser-cut stuff that you're doing with the Creeper. The Creeper! Yeah, and all that's got to, I mean, everything's got to be approved like that, too. Like, we don't just get to do the creeper armor because we want to. Like, that's got to be designed, and then it's got to be sent out for approval to the licensor and every single little thing. All right. Fantastic. All right, any final thoughts that you guys would like to get to here for our listeners aboard? Come check out my live streams on Twitch, 7 p.m. Central Time, every single Thursday. If we have new code out, I'll be playing that. If not, I go back and I play all of our old games. Love it. I'm just glad I made it through without... That was my shameless plug. I'm just glad I made it through without mentioning a future game. Dude, I almost talked about it a few times when we were talking about licensing and whatnot. I'm like, well, for this one. Yeah, right? Dang it, I was almost there. No, dude, that's the thing that people don't realize. It's not hard to trick us. Yeah, no kidding. Don't really fall for it. We're idiots. And apologies for the background noise throughout this. We are in the factory right now. It's almost like we're recording in a factory. Yeah, believe it or not, the factories are noisy. It's Richard John's game now. Thanks so much for the invite down here. If you're in the Benton, Wisconsin area, be sure to stop by and hang out, shake hands, and get that coveted parking space from the lovely folks at Spooky Pinball. We're always doing tours where people are free to come in absolutely any time they want. Just email Morgan ahead of time, set it up, let her know when you're coming at least so I'm not walking around the building with our next game in my arms. That has happened. It has happened. Is that still morgy at morganspookypinball.com? Squirrel. Squirrel. What am I forgetting? All right. Squirrelspoopyball.com. I'm Don. Thanks so much for joining me, guys. Appreciate it. Oh, man, I want to extend an extreme thank you to the spooky guys. A couple of gentlemen there, everybody. Squirrel, Bug, Luke, the whole crew. I met everybody top to bottom. They were nothing but gracious. Walked me around the chocolate factory. Showed me where the Oompa Loompas hang out. It was just fantastically awesome. These guys are hyped for their next game. I see nothing but bright future for these guys. and you'll hear about all of that and more from here, Don's Pinball Podcast. So thank you so much for joining us. And always be sure to email me at donspinballpodcast.com. Hit me on that email. Order some stickers. I got the holographic ones in, man. I got T-shirts. I'll just send you stuff if you need it. If you're poor, I got you, homie. I got you, fam. Just let me know what you need. I'll slide it out to you. Otherwise, appearances this fall at the Pinball Expo in Chicago. I can't wait. At the Renaissance, I got my room. I'm going to be there the entire time. We've got all kinds of events and things. It's going to get hype. Thank you, everybody. Love you.

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 668de2c7-1d61-48c9-83c9-71eb203b4939*