# The Great British Pinball Podcast Episode 17 **Source:** The Great British Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2024-10-23 **Duration:** 93m 18s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** Buzzsprout-15973100 --- ## Analysis Scott Rundell and Neil McCray discuss a month of major UK pinball events including UK Open (160 players), Scott's Labyrinth launch party, and Pinball Expo's 40th edition in Chicago. They cover factory tours at CGC and Stern, delays with Cactus Canyon and Pulp Fiction LE (parts supplier issues), early gameplay of new Cactus Canyon code, and critical analysis of Jersey Jack Pinball's complex code design on Avatar and Elton John. Notable tension emerges around LE vs SE release sequencing and manufacturing quality control. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] UK Open had 160 players over three days with more games than ever before — _Scott and Neil discussing UK Open event outcomes_ - [MEDIUM] Cactus Canyon delays caused by supplier delivering wrong LE apron design, requiring new supplier search — _Neil: 'that's what the grapevine says' - unconfirmed supplier issue via rumor_ - [MEDIUM] Pulp Fiction LE delay caused by topper part issues requiring replacement — _Neil discussing parts problems at CGC warehouse_ - [MEDIUM] CGC warehouse has approximately 500 games ready to ship pending final parts — _Neil's estimate based on factory tour observation_ - [HIGH] Avatar is too easy with one-hour game lengths possible; code is complex and unfun — _Neil's direct assessment after playing Avatar at UK Open, with critical rules analysis_ - [HIGH] JJP needs feedback from operators about game difficulty; their games don't appeal to location operators — _Neil's opinion on JJP's design philosophy and market positioning_ - [HIGH] Labyrinth has geometry issues but strong video interactions; first game sets high bar for Barrels of Fun — _Scott's assessment after playing at Pinfest and UK Open_ - [HIGH] New Cactus Canyon code is impressive; players won't revert to original code once played — _Neil's assessment after limited play at CGC factory_ - [HIGH] CGC uses silkscreen printing for playfields (learned from Williams era); offers superior durability and color depth vs digital printing — _Neil detailed observation of CGC manufacturing process_ ### Notable Quotes > "if only we had metallica to play our intro we would sound absolutely fantastic" > — **Scott Rundell**, opening > _Setup for later discussion of Metallica LE announcement and Neil's wife's interest_ > "it takes a village as they say and every village needs a clown. I will take that appointment with glee and happiness." > — **Neil McCray**, UK Open discussion > _Self-deprecating humor about event organization; sets tone for community-focused episode_ > "Does James travel because we could do with him at our tournament" > — **tournament volunteers (quoted by Neil)**, UK Open volunteers section > _Recognition of pinball technician James's quality work and demand across venues_ > "they've got all this music in there. And I think all the video interactions are great...Rick and Morty kind of style Geometry issues" > — **Scott Rundell**, Labyrinth discussion > _Balanced assessment: praise for code/video despite layout flaws on first-ever Barrels game_ > "The code's shocking on it. The rules are just terrible...it's not fun um and and it takes away from a well designed game" > — **Neil McCray**, Avatar discussion > _Direct criticism of Jersey Jack Pinball's code complexity; central tension point in episode_ > "a multiball needs to be earned in my book, and a multiball should be part of a special event...I don't want to have Guns and Roses, where it's blah blah blah lights multiball" > — **Neil McCray**, Avatar/JJP design philosophy > _Statement of design philosophy clash with JJP's multiball-heavy approach_ > "Do it right or don't do it guy And that's why they're late. Basically His His way of thinking, doing is why the games are late." > — **Neil McCray**, CGC/Doug Duva section > _Explains manufacturing philosophy behind Cactus Canyon/Pulp Fiction delays; framed positively_ > "you lose a lot of colour in the digital print...silk screen is just layer upon layer upon layer of colour, it's complex it's very complex" > — **Neil McCray**, Manufacturing/silkscreen discussion > _Technical explanation of playfield printing methods and quality implications_ > "I mean look as an LE customer I want my game but in hindsight, this is a discussion I have with Josh Sharp, it's better to make all the mistakes on the other ones and then figure it out" > — **Scott Rundell**, SE vs LE release strategy discussion > _Acknowledgment that manufacturing delays and LE-first strategy actually improved final product quality_ > "I bailed on my my x-men...when they announced metallica and i'm not a metallica fan my wife is...but she absolutely was like i want metallica" > — **Scott Rundell**, closing section > _Reveals personal collecting priority shift; Metallica announcement generating household-level demand_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Scott Rundell | person | Co-host of Great British Pinball Podcast; recent haircut comment; hosted Labyrinth launch party; attended Pinball Expo and factory tours; married to Mandy; canceled X-Men LE pre-order for Metallica | | Neil McCray | person | Co-host of Great British Pinball Podcast; plays pinball competitively; attended UK Open, Pinfest, Pinball Expo; traveled to Australia for tournament and Chicago for Expo; detailed technical knowledge of manufacturing | | UK Open | event | Tournament with 160 players over three days; featured Bond 60th and Rush as major matches; had one rebooting game issue (Quicksilver); hosted at UK venue; Mark streamed on Twitch/Backhand Pinball; needs more volunteers for next year | | Labyrinth | game | Barrels of Fun first game; Bally/Williams-style brutal outlanes; strong video interactions and code; stall ball potential; loaned by Rego Arcade (David); launched at Scott's house event; chosen by tournament winner ZMAC; new stall ball mode added post-launch | | Pinball Expo | event | 40th edition; huge schedule with multiple seminars (two rooms); robberies/factory tours at Stern and CGC; gift shop rammed; ~30 British attendees; recordings posted by Martin from Pinball News on YouTube | | CGC (Chicago Gaming Company) | company | Factory tour on Tuesday; produces Cactus Canyon and Pulp Fiction; uses silkscreen playfield printing; has ~500 games ready in warehouse awaiting final parts; separate SE and LE assembly modules; SEs already boxed with UK codes | | Stern Pinball | company | Factory tour on Friday; private Metallica event attended by Neil; manufactures Insider Connect equipped games; X-Men has reported niggles requiring fixes; compared unfavorably to CGC manufacturing capabilities | | Avatar | game | JJP game; played at UK Open; delivered and unboxed at event; excessive game length (one-hour possibilities); complex, confusing code; poor operator appeal; criticized for unbalanced ruleset and multiball saturation | | Elton John | game | JJP game; USB-C connection issues at UK Open; still not working 100% post-event despite troubleshooting; had to be connected via FreePlay; great layout but problematic code design | | Cactus Canyon | game | CGC remake with new code and hardware additions (bar doors, ball lock light module); new code looked cool; supplier delivered wrong LE apron design, required new supplier; significant delay consequence; ~500 units ready at CGC warehouse | | Pulp Fiction | game | CGC remake; had topper part issues requiring replacement; silkscreen playfield printing visible at factory; delayed shipment pending final parts; compared to digital-printed Medieval Madness showing quality difference | | Metallica | game | Limited edition Stern game; subject of private factory event at Expo; Neil's wife interested despite Neil not being a metal fan; Neil canceled X-Men LE order to pursue Metallica | | X-Men | game | Stern special edition discussed; Scott canceled LE pre-order; has reported niggles requiring fixes; Stern walking through quality issues; contrasted with CGC's quality-first approach | | Doug Duva | person | CGC manufacturing philosophy driver; 'Do it right or don't do it' approach; attributed as reason for Cactus Canyon/Pulp Fiction delays; respected by Neil; solved playfield chipping issues on LE vs earlier SEs | | David (Rego Arcade) | person | Rego Arcade owner; loaned Labyrinth to UK Open; offered Labyrinth launch party opportunity to Scott; long-time supporter of Scott; helped Scott source pinball modifications/parts (Comet, Titan, PinSound) | | James (technician) | person | UK Open 'fix it guy'; exceeded expectations; tournament operators requested him for their events; praised for reliability and skill; based in south-east Essex-London area; branching out geographically | | Gary Flower | person | Neil's guide at Pinball Expo; described as 'pinball royalty'; massively respected in community; bagged for Neil during factory tours | | Beercade Sydney | venue | Australian venue where Neil played tournament; described as real location; Neil visited Australia for week, played poorly due to jet lag | | ZMAC (Zach McCurry) | person | Tournament winner (main event); picked Labyrinth as game; loves the game; competitive pinball player known to the hosts | | Josh Sharp | person | Discussion partner with Scott about manufacturing quality; involved in SE vs LE release strategy conversation | | Backhand Pinball | organization | Streamed UK Open tournament on Mark's Twitch channel; recordings available for upload to YouTube | | Martin (Pinball News) | person | Pinball News founder/operator; recorded and uploaded Pinball Expo seminar content to YouTube | | Rob Burke | person | Pinball Expo organizer/owner; runs show with family; managed 40th edition; received praise for comprehensive event organization | | Eric (Barrels/Labyrinth designer) | person | Designer of Labyrinth; added stall ball mode post-launch based on Neil's suggestion; working with venues like Pinfest for tournament implementation | | Pinfest | event | UK pinball festival; hosting Labyrinth stall ball competition next year; Scott first played Labyrinth there | ### Topics - **Primary:** Manufacturing quality and supply chain delays, Jersey Jack Pinball's complex code philosophy vs operator/casual player preferences, Barrels of Fun's Labyrinth as first boutique release - **Secondary:** CGC factory silkscreen vs digital playfield printing methods, SE vs LE manufacturing sequence and quality control implications, UK tournament and venue operations (UK Open, volunteers, stall ball) - **Mentioned:** Metallica LE pre-order hype and market demand, Stern X-Men quality issues and fixes ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.55) — Positive enthusiasm about events and manufacturing transparency at CGC/Stern, tempered by sharp criticism of Jersey Jack Pinball's code design and manufacturing delays. Praise for volunteer efforts, factory quality, and Labyrinth's potential balanced against frustration with Avatar/Elton John complexity and USB-C reliability issues. Generally appreciative of Doug Duva's quality-first philosophy despite inconvenience of delays. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** CGC warehouse has ~500 games ready with UK LE orders prioritized to front of queue ahead of SE deliveries. Rapid turnaround expected once final parts arrive. (confidence: medium) — Neil: 'there are about 500 games ready to roll...UK is going to get LEs first...they're already waiting...ready to go.' SEs boxed and coded but waiting for LE completion. - **[event_signal]** UK Open successfully executed with 160 players; event volunteers essential but facing fatigue/burnout toward end of event. Need for more structured volunteer rotation for future events. (confidence: high) — Neil: 'next year we still need more volunteers...We struggle towards the end of Saturday...at the start, everyone wants to help. And then as they get tired...' - **[competitive_signal]** Labyrinth positioned as strong stall ball game with variable lock strategies; new mode added post-launch increases competitive appeal. Expected to be featured at Pinfest next year. (confidence: medium) — Neil: 'perfect for stall ball...locks change...cue is going to shrink pretty quickly.' Eric added stall ball mode based on community feedback. - **[design_philosophy]** Jersey Jack Pinball's approach of complex rule sets with abundant multiballs conflicts with operator/casual player preferences for shorter game times (15-30 min target vs current 60+ min games). (confidence: high) — Neil critical of Avatar: 'The code's shocking on it. The rules are just terrible.' Advocates for separate tournament/standard codes to serve both wizard players (1%) and casual players. - **[manufacturing_signal]** CGC's 'do it right or don't do it' manufacturing philosophy under Doug Duva prioritizes quality over speed, resulting in delays but improved final product. SE units experienced issues that LE units will avoid. (confidence: high) — Neil: 'it's better to make all the mistakes on the other ones and then figure it out.' Doug's philosophy directly caused delays but improved playfield quality and durability. - **[announcement]** New Cactus Canyon code impressive with added hardware (bar doors, ball lock light module). Code quality superior to original; players unlikely to revert after experiencing new version. (confidence: high) — Neil after limited play: 'the code is looking pretty cool...once you've played the new code I don't think anyone's going back to the old code.' - **[product_strategy]** Cactus Canyon and Pulp Fiction LE shipments delayed due to supplier quality failures (wrong apron design, topper issues). Games now ready at CGC warehouse (~500 units) pending final parts assembly. (confidence: high) — Neil: 'they had an issue with the le apron...delivered something very different...had to find a supplier.' ~500 games ready for rapid turnaround once parts arrive. - **[product_concern]** Avatar code complexity and poor ruleset design; operators report one-hour game lengths making it unsuitable for location play. Operator appeal lacking despite strong playfield design. (confidence: high) — Operator feedback: long games unpopular. Neil: 'JJP needs to get more feedback from players about what they want.' Contrasts with Stern's market accessibility. - **[sentiment_shift]** Scott's collecting priorities shifted from X-Men LE to Metallica LE after announcement; wife's enthusiasm for Metallica creating household demand despite Scott not being metal fan. (confidence: high) — Scott: 'I bailed on my x-men...when they announced metallica...my wife is...she absolutely was like i want metallica.' - **[technology_signal]** Jersey Jack Pinball's adoption of USB-C connectors for data/video causing reliability issues (Elton John wouldn't connect properly at UK Open). Community questions why USB-C chosen over standard Ethernet. (confidence: high) — Neil at UK Open: 'they should be using Ethernet rather than this, which is what everyone uses.' USB-C described as unusual for appliance-level pinball equipment. --- ## Transcript welcome to the great british pinball podcast and here are your hosts scott rundell and neil mccray if only we had metallica to play our intro we would sound absolutely fantastic and we might even remaster it more on that later yes ladies gentlemen and everyone else this is the great british pinball podcast i think episode 15 but i need to look that up um indeed scott it's been a while how are you i'm not too bad man how you doing but you've had a haircut mate since i last saw you, I think. Yeah, you know what, I just, I have to look smart. So I felt like, you know, also, let's face it, we had a remark, wasn't it, at Pimbo Expo, where they were like, oh, you know, we didn't know how big you were, Scott, and I thought, what the hell do I have? I'm not that massive, do you know what I mean? Everyone thought you were my puppet, and I had my hand up. Or a puppet, so, you know, I'm not going to say I'm thin, but I'm definitely not as big as they made me out to be. I know they can't record content patterns. It's kind of amazing the feedback we get. It's never the feedback we expect. Definitely. It's slightly bizarre, but those of you that give us feedback, thank you very much. It's been a while. The reason it's been a while is because it's been a month of events. We had the UK Open. Scott had the UK Labyrinth launch party at his house. We've got Pinball Expo, we've had a couple of other events and there's been one or two pinball machines released over the last few weeks we did a special edition for X-Men which was cool and we'll talk a little bit about that but we're just going to kind of flow in kind of chronological order for want of a better word but I'm going to start with UK Open UK Open went really well, a huge shout out to all the volunteers who helped. It takes a village as they say and every village needs a clown. I will take that appointment with glee and happiness. Yeah, okay. But we it went very well. We had 160 players over three days. We put more games than we ever had before We had some massive matches On a couple of games Bond 60th Was one of them Rush another one And it was just a great weekend And actually for the first time I was able to step back And enjoy it a little bit because we got used to running it Next year we still need more volunteers So if you're listening to this And want to be part of it please reach out to us because we struggle towards the end of Saturday on some of the things we need. I don't know the exact number, but, you know, we have to do – there's the build phase. That has a bunch of volunteers. Then there's the run phase. That has a bunch of volunteers. And then there's the breakdown phase. And, you know, at the start, everyone wants to help. And then as they get tired, they're like, oh, I don't know if I want to help. And look, as humans, right, they're not – I'm not criticising it's work human, right? But, you know, my take and the team's take is the more volunteers we've got, you know, we can stagger things. But, you know, a few people went above and beyond the call of duty. Actually, I can't remember, I feel bad about this, but Stuart Judder's wife was, like, scorekeeper superstar. And Claire who ran the front desk Was also another superstar Dai Clive, James Our fix it guy James was just on fire He continues to impress people In fact some of the tournament guys said Does James travel because we could do with him at our tournament That's so James and Majestic Yeah James and Majestic Look if you're needing a pinball machine fixed And you're kind of in the the south-east-ish Essex-London area. He's branching out. He's your mate. In any case, give him a phone. Honestly, he did a tremendous job. We actually only lost one game the whole weekend. Actually, we didn't... I wouldn't say we lost it, but we couldn't figure out what was causing it. We had a game rebooting. In fact, we had a few games rebooting, and I kind of think there might have been something up with the power supply because, an example, my Quicksilver kept rebooting. It's never rebooted ever. You mean that was like maybe too much power draw around the room because there was too much? No, we balanced it. That was definitely an issue at the start, but we rebalanced on the Thursday night. We just couldn't get to the bottom of it. I don't know if maybe there's a bad connection or a bad earth or something. I don't know. We kind of struggled with it. And it was, you know, slightly frustrating. But, you know, it kind of is what it is. Actually, we didn't have as many Stern reboots because last year that was a big issue for us. So that was good to see. That was maybe probably because the Insider Connect code was probably a little less mature at that point, right? Yeah, I don't know if it could be. I don't know if it's that or something else, but it definitely felt like it didn't happen. But it still happened, but definitely not to the volume that it happened last year. And actually, I want to kind of shout out to a couple of sponsors. Rego Arcade, who loaned us Labyrinth. Thank you, David. Philip Pimbleheaven, who loaned us Avatar, Elton John and Funhouse, which was great. We had Avatar actually delivered to the event and we unboxed it there. How did it hold up? Elton John, not so much We had to pull it out In the end JJP uses this USB-C System now And it's terrible Is there no like You know like RJ45 You've got the teeth to grip it in Is there no lock? No, I mean And that's the point. They should be using Ethernet rather than this, which is what everyone uses. But honestly, I must have spent so much time swapping components. And actually, to this moment, it still isn't working 100%, which is a great letdown because Elton John's a great game. Actually, Avatar. Or to do USB-C. I mean, I get the fact it can do data and video just as much as Cat5, But Cathbar's got to be cheaper to run anyway versus USB-C. I honestly struggle with it. I think using USB-C in a kind of appliance like this, I know of no one else doing that. But, look, again, you know, we ended up putting out and joining FreePlay and then just rebooting it every time it locked up. Avatar came, and that was great. players were playing it I got to play it a few times Can I ask I heard from another podcast when they were doing I think it was with Retro Ralph and they were doing like a after the expo talk and they were talking about Avatar and one of the guys on the podcast who was an operator and he said it's too easy and they've had some people like play one hour games on it, what's your views on that, was it too easy? Yeah I mean we had a couple of long games On it I definitely think that you can Make it a bit harder but I do think It's not it is a long playing game No question about it I don't think it's a tournament Game I'll be honest with you I I like the playfield layout I think that works really well The code's shocking on it The rules are just terrible They told me it was a multiball With many addables well there's that but they've also got this kind of weird start a mode thing where you've got to hit different things and it just in my mind it's just not fun um and and it takes away from a well designed game that's got a lot of light shows a lot of moments but they're lost in this madness of code well i remember they showed that like uh infographic and it was a massive like rule set and I was like I'm never going to be able to get my head around that. I don't know how the coders do it because they just must get lost in their own code trying to make something to their D. A lot of people complained about Avengers AIQ being complex. It's not a patch on this. I mean this is a constant theme. Godfather I thought was a decent layout but terrible code. I don't know what they do about it but I think There's a coder involved in those games And then there's a coder that's involved in Elton John's Different guy, different outcome of game And I think I don't know, I think JGP needs to get more feedback From players about what they want And react to that I get it, they're trying to fill a boutique Kind of saying We're a home-setting game, right I don't think they ever appeal to the operators Because their games can obviously get bashed around in location and it's probably going to end up breaking. I think, like, and I don't think that's a reflection on the quality. I think that's just because they pack them and there's parts that can break when you pack a game. Like, that's why pros are on location at certain because they're stripped back, less likely to break, right? I think JJP just needs to look at the code, though, and go, does someone want to sit in front of a game for one hour? I don't. I'm personally from a valley crowd, right? Speaking from a circus Voltaire sat in the background there's a cabinet there to me a game is good if it's like half an hour max 15 minutes is kind of my nice spot 30 minutes is like I'll play a game for 30 minutes I'm too crap to play a game on three balls for one hour I just couldn't do it I'm not that good I've not had many one hour games I've had a couple I've had a couple of long Godzilla games a couple of long Theatre of Magic games But I kind of agree with you I think you don't want it to Of course different players, different skills are going to go on Yeah of course The minority, the 1% That are great players You know You need to take care of them But they're not the only type of players Maybe where you, I would say Develop two styles of code, right? Like have a tournament code And then have just a standard operator's code, if you want to call it that, or something like that, where people can experience the majority of what the game has to offer within a 15-minute window. Because if you're... I don't know. I'm not saying JGP would ever do this because this is not going to be in their ethos. They give away multiballs like they're candy. But I think a multiball needs to be earned in my book, and a multiball should be part of a special event. You've unlocked a multiball. I don't want to have Guns and Roses, where it's blah blah blah lights multiball blah blah blah band assembled multiball blah blah blah this multiball and you just chain one after the other it loses impact by having too many multiballs Agreed and I think I think like I say I think it's something they need to think about because it's not I don't think it's working for them the way that they're currently doing it and I think they've had two good layouts that haven't sold because code just isn't there basically But also, as much as Elton John's great, you know, there's a lot of rumours that will come more to people's lips, but a lot of rumours that, you know, while Elton John's been great, it hasn't been the top seller that you might expect it to be. I think that's the money, though, and the marketing. I couldn't agree more. So, yes, we had a UK Open. Like I say, it went great. Thanks to everyone who came. Thanks to everyone who volunteered. and it was a really great event the stream is still online on Mark's Twitch channel Backhand Pinball but as soon as I get back we'll upload the data is currently sitting on my PC at home to upload it to YouTube so if you want to watch it I'll share those links later on. But then you had your event Scott I did, unfortunately it was a victim of people bailing at the last minute but I did get at least about I don't know, I think we talked about eight, nine people showed up. Cool. Over the course of the day. We had, like, the majority of people, I'd say, between, I don't know, between 12 and 4, 12 and 5. Yeah, it was always a bit of a concern. Like, you don't know who's going to show up and who isn't. And plus, I didn't really make it, like, open to the public or anything. David, basically, of Retro Arcade, said to me, like, look, you've bought a labyrinth. You know, you've been really good to me. Me and him have got on for a long time. well before it even become a disney for any major pinball company kind of like pushing him to say get comet get titan get pin sound because I was finding these gaps that nobody in the UK was doing and when I reached out to certain people in the UK market they were like well I'm not selling it and I'm like okay I'll have to buy abroad and when I finally I'm not sure even know how I ran into David and spoke to him he'd have to probably clock back in our chat history to find out but the ball started rolling from there and then he, as a result, grew obviously into where he is today. And I feel like, you know, he's done well to get barrels of fun and he said to me, like, look, do you want it? I can give you it after UK Open. You can do a launch party for me if you'd like. And I said, I'd love to. I want to get more people playing that game. I think, for me, Labyrinth, I don't know, I played it at Pinfest obviously for the first time and I smiled and I was like, that's a game. for me that was like it's bally it's a bally williams game it feels like a bally williams game it's brutal i'm not gonna lie those outlanes are punishing as hell but i really love the interaction with the code initially i thought the music was like too slow too temperament but when you play it the mode music changes to fit what's going on i.e when you're like in the Oubliette, which is basically like Sarah from the movie gets stuck into this pit and just to find a way out of it. The music is quite apt in that area. And obviously, you're not the actor. David Bowie, isn't it? Yeah, some junior guy. Yeah. So obviously, when he plays Jareth, they've got all this music in there. And I think all the video interactions are great. For me, I get why people wouldn't always say they want it It's not the perfect game It's definitely got Rick and Morty kind of style Geometry issues I'd say Yeah Look it's their first game It is their first game and More to the point I was impressed with What they put together They've set the bar high for themselves Absolutely I'm excited We had the game at the UK Open but actually Zach McCurry, who won ZMAC, who won the main, he picked it and he loves it. He plays it. He loves it. He says it's a great game. So when you've got someone like him playing it, whether on stream, gameplay, well, there was one bug that we kept hitting that actually I need to, I was trying to help Eric. I've got code updates since then. There's actually a really good mode, and I've asked if Phil would be interested in hosting Labyrinth at Pinfest pin fest next year for stall ball because yeah they've added it's really done well i was playing it like yesterday brilliantly done and and um it's because they do one of the i think it's because one of the gigs that eric goes to they do a big stall ball so he came up with this which i think is a great idea look for me it's the default as the king of stall ball yeah retired No one else is as good as me Sorry, but you're not I think you've got the magic on it I'm not going to lie The best It's the game to choose now None of this Twilight Zone malarkey The beauty of it is As you progress, the more players that have played Shots that were made in the past That would equate to a lock Are illustrated on the playfield By the insert saying it's a red shot If it's a red shot, you'll drain So if you go for a lock that you're used to And you've made it too many times Even if it's someone who was in front of you And they've just made it The locks change And there's a lot of locks in that game A huge amount of locks When I first played it I thought this would be a good stall ball game I think it's perfect for stall ball Because it's going to make those games Pretty brittle pretty fast I think you'll find that cue is going to shrink pretty quickly Exactly Which given the scale of it is absolutely needed. So, Luke, great on your event. Have you still got the game, or is it...? I do, yeah. I'm putting together, for my sins, my own video review of it. Basically, I did one take, and I wasn't happy with it, mainly because my camera is just my phone, right? And instead of having a lapel, like a mic, I'm running from the mic from the phone, and it's too echoey so I bought a mic kit and I'll do it properly Awesome I'll look forward to seeing that and then we kind of went to from there to Pinball Expo Yeah, the old 40th It was first of all a big shout out to Rob Burke and his family who run it I can't imagine a show with more in it Go look at pinballexpo.com And I've looked at the schedule It was just nuts There's so much stuff to do And actually Frustratingly you had to choose You know Which I wanted to do everything But you just couldn't You had to choose things You've got the recordings right That's the nice thing Martin from Pinball News Has put all the recordings up on his YouTube channel But that isn't all the seminars Because there was two seminar rooms They're only recording them once So that was the downside of that But look it is what it is So the seminar I did on closing The club and reopening it wasn't recorded Which is a bit of a shame Because I knew it wouldn't be well attended Because it's kind of a weird Wacky thing But there was lots of Brits there which was good to see And actually I think there was about 30 Brits there in total and I saw a couple of UK Open t-shirts a couple of Pinfest t-shirts which was great but Rob and his team really laid on an epic show the shop the thing was rammed and then we got to tour all the factories I got a special invite to a Stern private event about Metallica which is great, it means I got to play it a lot actually another big shout out to Gary Flower who was my bag man for a few things but he's a great guy and massively respected in the pinball community, it's insane he literally is pinball royalty and it was good to spend a bit of time with him so yeah again I'll just run through chronologically so also I went to Australia actually a big shout out to Beercade in Sydney where I played in a tournament did terribly because I was so jet lagged but I was in Australia for a week 24 hour flight there and back I don't know how you do it after that I was kind of like but it was great to get down there, it was one part of the world I'd never been to and it was good to finally touch there even if it was only for a week but I'm no because it was for a week and I was just going to be locked in meeting rooms and offices I mean I barely saw anything of Melbourne Sydney I made a point of walking to where the harbour bridge is and the opera house I got some photos and stuff but I didn't it wasn't time I could have stayed longer except I needed to be back because it was expo time and I didn't part of the issue I had was I didn't plan i didn't wasn't australia happened kind of last minute because what i should have done was flow from sydney to chicago and met and met met up there but i had to bounce back to the uk and then come to the expo actually mandy came with me to expo um as well so we actually so landed on friday afternoon sorry saturday morning it was saturday morning late afternoon early afternoon Literally got back to the house Had a bacon sandwich which I'd missed Because I'd been travelling a lot Nothing better than a British bacon sandwich I'm sorry it just isn't Then slept all day Saturday kind of woke up Went out with Mand And then Sunday we got ready For Sunday I had to open the club It was my day to open the club so I was in the club all day Sunday Trying to, I was just fixing a few things And then Monday we were up at six in the morning on a United flight to Chicago at eight And we landed on Monday and they already set up We went out to dinner on Monday night we didn do an awful lot and Tuesday we were at CGC and lots of photos bouncing around where the fuck is my television because that's what I would have said so look I think it's kind of an interesting interest is kind of psychology on human behaviour, right? Let me tell you, you go into the factory and get upset that your game hasn't been delivered. Don't get me wrong, you've got every right to be upset. But it doesn't really endear them to talk to you or be nice to you. So I watched all these idiots go up and give them a hard time. People did do that. I was like, yeah, here's a time and a place. You get a chance to come and see a factory They're inviting you in as a guest And you want to kick ass on the fact That your game hasn't shipped What is the main reason for the delay? Let me come back to that I will get to it Doug Duva I've got so much respect for Doug He is a Do it right or don't do it guy And that's why they're late Basically His His way of thinking, doing is why the games are late. And I'll get into the details of that. But anyway, we get there. First thing we see, they've got a bunch of, they've got all their games in this arcade area. They gave us a T-shirt and a bunch of other stuff, which was awesome. And on the Cactus Canyon, they got this, they got the new code and they got the module that comes with the new code, two modules. One is a set of bar doors That sit in front of the car The other is a Ball lock light above the The gold mine That's got locked one, locked two And the code I got to play a little bit of the code It was pretty busy so it was hard to play it And I was trying to video it but it was so busy And there was a lot of glare because it was in this kind of Office area that had lots of windows on it But I'd say the code is looking pretty cool. I can't wait to get it. I was impressed by it. Of course, they had Pulp Fiction there, they had Mania of Madness, they had Attack from Mars. Just so I understand it, so the Saloon mod, let's call it, so the Saloon add-on, if you put that on, is it a bit like a Predetti game where you can flick between the old code and the new code? So, I believe it will be. How do you think they're going to get past that though If you've added in those bits Will they just allow Well I think they'll basically Deactivate it so that So there's two doors that move I think they'll just open them basically I mean you can't get rid of it Because it's there I think they'll just open it Especially for the original Cactus Canyon code That's what I mean I mean I think they'll I'm not worried about that I think they'll take care of it But I'll be honest with you once you've played the new code I don't think anyone's going back to the old code you know as well as I do I had that game and I got to the wizard mode on my I think it was on my first go which I was like if I can do this pros must be annihilating it it's a you can set it up harder for sure but it is an easier game with lots of save shots yeah absolutely I think so Anyway, the two guys around the factory Come in, the first thing we see is Where they're testing The games They're doing a lot of testing They've got as many people on testing As they've got on build There's parts everywhere, it's an old factory So it's not On Tuesday you get CGC On Friday you get Stern And you're going from one extreme to another It's still a big factory They show you where they're doing all the assembly where they got all the parts but then you go into this kind of next section and this is where they're doing the hardcore manufacturing they are building everything everything from wood I mean you've got literally this huge stock room of pure wood and they're making cabinets, they're making playfields, they're making parts you name it and they're a big chunk of metal and they're kind of making Some of the metal parts themselves They've got this insane wood room I mean They're doing all CNC stuff And then they're doing the Whole kind of The What's the word They do the kind of matte based Playfield so it's not printed It's the old way of doing it Oh silkscreen Silkscreen that's the word well done And it's just It's a joy to watch it Do you have access to silkscreen CGC Yeah they've got all the So CGC did a lot of this for Williams Back in the day Can you tell me Just so I understand this They're Marc Silk screening Pulp Fiction Yes Exactly That's impressive Actually you notice the difference Because they had a play field That was a digital print Of Medieval Madness and a Marc Silk screen and it's amazing the difference seeing them side by side because you lose a lot of colour in the digital print I mean bear in mind Marc Silk screen is just layer upon layer upon layer of colour, it's complex it's very complex and the part I love about it is that it's much more resilient because it's bedded into the wood when you print onto wood it's just one layer, that's it I don't know if you ever noticed older games when they're getting worn you can see the colours underneath as it wears out and it was great to watch this although they were doing like 20 or 30 playfields a day which seemed not a big number that's a lot for folks really yeah but it's big for them but they used to they got all the screens from Stern stuff that they've done like Metallica, the old Metallica the original, they've got Ghostbusters they got games as far back as Shrek I have to ask, do you think that they're going to do a Ghostbusters remastered? I'm pretty confident that they're going to Yeah Let's come back to that, let's finish CGC and then so literally you've got wood and raw materials going in one door and fully assembled pinball machines and arcade machines coming out of the other door It was a joy to see let's just talk about why the games are late right and this this applies to cactus canyon as much as it applies to um pulp fiction so cactus canyon they had an issue with as i understand that they had an issue with the le um apron the supplier um originally positioned one thing then when they went to manufacture they delivered something very different and they were told no we want the thing we wanted and and they they didn't do it so they had to find a supplier that's what so no one from cgc told me that that's what the grapevine says right and that's that caused you know a big chunk of the delay this public fiction le they had a similar issue with the topper so they've had a part missing or a part issue with the topper that they had to redo or get again or i don't know what But they finally got all the parts And Here's the great thing right In the CGC warehouse I'm going to guess There are about 500 games Ready to roll And the only thing that they need So the games come like as a It's kind of like a blank So it doesn't have a top part It doesn't have the speaker panel And it doesn't have the apron Right So you can either put in an SE Apron speaker panel and you've got an SE Or you can put in an LE apron Speaker panel on top or you've got an LE They're ready to roll so my expectation Is now that they've sorted out the parts These games are going to move very Quickly they've got loads of them There's no What was our bet? Our bet was that the game When the games were going to ship Yeah so your bet was March next year I did say March next year My bet was the end of this year So I'm looking forward To claiming The victory on that bet I have to say though It was my heart was saying Before Christmas my head was much more aligned With you I didn't expect the game to be Here so but We'll wait and see till it really arrives I'm pretty sure we're on for End of November December delivery I was going to say you can correct me if I'm wrong But I heard something along the lines of that they're promoting the European orders to the front of the queue because they're going to be asking the queue for the Cactus Tent. Yeah, so UK is going to get LEs first. And there's a lot of people listening to this waiting for an SE. They'll come at the same time. Again, they've got a lot. I mean, I see all the SEs were boxed up. They're already waiting. So they had UK codes on them. Sure. SE, they're ready to go. and they're just waiting to get the LEs and I literally think the LE turnaround will be super quick but Doug, you know, this is the thing you either take it or leave it when pinball companies get it wrong we moan like hell, right we were talking earlier on a lot of niggles with X-Men and you know Stern are walking through and I'm sure they'll solve them but if you've got your your Cactus Canyon or your Pulp Fiction LE with a part that immediately needed replacing, you'd be like, well, that's a load of old bullshit, right? So Doug's done the right thing, which is, hey, we're going to wait. We're going to get it right. We're going to ship it. And, you know, they've learned a lot from the essays that have gone out. So the good news is, you know, and it's what Doug told me, some of the issues with playfields, chipping, et cetera, they've solved all that. and in some respects it's good to be last because all the pain of what the current SE owners have experienced has been resolved Well it's the same thing that's going on with X-Men right? I feel like it felt like it was the right idea to do LEs first but I think in all honesty I mean look as an LE customer I want my game but in hindsight, this is a discussion I have with Josh Sharpe, it's better to make all the mistakes on the other ones and then figure it out and I definitely think that's come true I think Stern will probably rethink that for future releases but you know there's a lot of it I mean this is the thing I think I partly created this hype because I was one of the first in fact I was the first non-Stern employee to play the game so but the game is just... You brought me into it and I mean you're going to be back I'm convinced about it you might not get one new but I think you'll end up owning one for a while yeah I mean like probably cats out of the bag i've bailed on my my x-men i think for me when they announced metallica and i'm not a metallica fan my wife is she goes to um download festival she loves slipknot and watching people massacre goats and god knows what else it's not for me but she absolutely was like i want metallica and i was like i can't buy it I've bought too many goddamn games recently, and they're all in the 10k plus range. I'm going to be bankrupt at this rate. She was pleading with David to switch out. I still think I would have liked having an X-Men, but Metallica just looked way more polished. X-Men will be around for a while, mate. You'll be able to pick one up as and when. She's gone nuts. She's gone for the LE. Yeah. I know you, right? It's fine. You're an LE guy. I'm like, I've had LEs but nothing like this I think if there's an LE to go for this is one of them they're only making 500 so it is truly limited right X-Men so we'll jump to Stern we'll come back to the others I got a nice note from Stern saying, hey Neil, we'd love you to come to our private event Stern HQ on Thursday And I was like hmm Thursday And Basically The tour of the factory was Friday Which is what I was going to go to So anyway Actually Gary and Fleur was invited I drove them down there We headed down there And we get in there and we're invited Same place I was for when I saw X-Men Everyone's there John Borrow, Jack The whole Stern crew are there and they've got a couple of, they've got a premium they've got an LE and the game just looks amazing man the artwork is I'm an original LE owner which actually I've had two offers of 10 grand for which I just couldn't believe but I'll be honest with you, sell it I mean I don't, I know you might turn around and go I'll have another LE it's whatever but to me I don't think people would even value the old version now, to me the new version is just way better It's such a, I mean Luke both games are great I mean for me I probably I don't know I haven't given it too much thought But it's kind of Lime and original And that makes me reluctant To sell it Who knows It was interesting to get those Offers Anyway the game looks Great they've done an epic job Of translating it to Spike 2 The animations are brilliant the sound is just so much better than the original that animation is where I wanted X-Men to be I don't know why it changes between teams so radically but whoever they're doing the animations with for this should be doing the animations for all of them yeah but just remember the licensor can be a pain in the ass on that like Metallica won't give a shit about animations do whatever you like but Marvel you know they're going to be a bit you know make sure you you look at like X-Men no offense it looks like Adobe After Effects like some of it's just like here's a character and it's moving across the screen and all it is is just like it's faking an animation movement I know they're trying to make a comic thing like they did with AIQ but I don't know like I look at Deadpool it's hard it's really difficult to animate someone else's IP like that whereas the Metallica IP is kind of simple at least in my mind and actually there's not you know the amount of animation level that's required is kind of slightly different but anyway look I think both are great to be honest and also remind everybody when you're playing you're not looking at the screen but I'm looking that's probably why I'm losing don't look at the screen mate I almost do feel sorry for Jack because it's probably the first time they've done a game where they've released another game nah it's not it's the third time it's the third time so they did it with Batman 66 they did it with Elvira this is normal I mean look I spoke to Jack he's fine when you've got Expo with 40 X-Men on display and they've all got queues yeah there's nothing for him to be complaining about that playfield design I still think is the most innovative thing I've seen in the last 10 years in pinball but I just wish they felt like they'd rushed his game out the door it was like it's 6 months ahead of schedule whatever the story was the code didn't feel right there's so much potential in that I'd rather they just released Metallica because it looked like it was ready and then done X-Men next year Yeah I mean I don't know I don't know if I know the real reason for that But I think the game I think the play field of the game was done I think there was some more testing They needed to do so you'll see On Pinside there's a couple of issues with it They'll be solved I've seen them on other games They'll get them solved But Mine's arrived Believe it or not It's here in the UK It's in a box In my pinball shed Waiting to be opened Better do an unboxing than this weekend Yes Friday night I'm going to do it on Twitch So 8 o'clock Friday night I'm going to do an unboxing stream Hopefully it's not Broken like Bond I know Tell me about it I've also got John Wick Coming back so there'll be two New games to play and yeah so Metallica was just everyone that played it just thought it was brilliant the new modes are really cool although they need to adjust the scoring's a bit unbalanced on them they need to work on that, I was talking to Radie about that but it was great and Gary Seth, George, we had a good chat with George Gomez those guys just they kind of feel like a team that you want to be part of Sure they've got issues And there's things about the way they do business People like or hate But I think they're on fire right now The scale that they've got Is just out of this world They could make They could do all of Alice in Wonderland In probably three days All of the games Talk to me about Alice in Wonderland Alice in Wonderland A beautiful Well you can see that there's been a attention to detail on the art and the kind of vibe of the game it's kind of like you know when you buy an iPhone it comes in this really great box that is you know very much what's the word very much premium product. They're going for that thing. The artwork isn't for me. There's a bit of debate on Pinside about the fact that Alice has suddenly got the biggest size pair of something or other. I wasn't a fan of the backbox art. I loved the overall package, don't get me wrong. It's got a very J-pop feel to it. I think the part I'm sad about is the limited run. I get why they're like, yeah, look, it's going to be 300 in the US and whatever it is. Or is it the other way around? Is it 300 in Europe and 200 in the US? I can't remember. It's something low, isn't it? Yeah, they had three games and the queues were long to play it. But it looks great. It sounds terrible. I mean, that is my biggest criticism. Did you ever watch Carrie Hardy's live reveal? I didn't know. The reveal? The stream? Yeah, the trailer. Yeah, that was a disaster. I mean, I don't know what they were thinking. I mean, I was like, why are these guys doing something so dumb? And actually, with Davey Stumbler, who was our great friend, I kind of felt bad for them. I actually offered to go over there. Sorry, I actually offered at Expo to bring my streaming gear and do a proper stream of it. Sure. But they decided, well, they've kind of sold out of everything. So they don't really care now. Well they do care but you know They don't need to show more video But they've sold them all So I played the game Actually I thought The layout is It's not an amazing layout But it's okay It's playable it's good It doesn't feel I don't think it feels like a Bally Williams game It doesn't it feels like something Different There's not a huge number of toys on it in the same way there was with TVL. And actually part of me thinks that's a good thing because everyone knows my opinion on the reliability of TVL. I just think it's very unreliable. So the magnet thing at the back, I think it's a missed opportunity. They should have put something at the magnets. It just lacks something. It lacks a connection. I think they would have been better with like a, you know the thing on shadow where you move it. The push up thing, yeah, yeah. Yeah, something like that, or even just a couple of little flippers. I think that would have been better. All right. Some of the shots, like how you get into multiball, there's this little clock screen on there that's really well done. And there's a couple of shots that I thought were pretty good. The ramps, the plastic ramps, they just look horrible. I don't know what they were thinking about that. They could easily have done metal rails. Prototype, right? the kind of like cardboard-esque kind of prototype that was originally designed. I think, I mean, for me, I looked at it and I think I would have rather they would have increased the quantity. I know they're trying to say to the collectors that this is a proper limited edition, but to me, it's like I wanted to be able to play it first before putting down that kind of money for it. And I feel like you're never going to get that opportunity unless you have maybe even, I don't even think even if you wait to expo you have that kind of FOMO kicking in and everybody's just bought them already because there's so few of them about so I don't know I think for me it's got potential to be better I mean like obviously the call outs are terrible I mean he's even got it so that when you do Twitch donations it says jackpot Kerry jackpot and it just taking Mad Hatter kind of terrible call voice But that all changeable I mean, that's the part I found impressive, that they had quite a... Obviously because of maybe Davey's kind of influence, i.e. Stumbler, but it has obviously mod ports available. You can have direct 5 volts to add your own mods. It has the ability to... How can I put it? edit the audio files, edit the video files. They've made it so it's not locked down, which obviously I suppose is easier to do because the game's not based on any... There's no IP issues. It's royalty free or whatever the term is now or copyright free. It's over 100 years old. So I get why they chose Alice. I think I just would have liked personally a few more units, maybe 100 or 200 more, and maybe they just did a standard version. They have that super deluxe version and that had maybe more of a run that you could have had a chance to play it make your mind up then put some money down i don't i kind of i mean i've just i'm saying this really stupidly because obviously i just bought well my wife's just bought metallica sight and see but i think that's a little different because we know the game do you know i mean it's come from i mean i think that this is a game for collectors it's so if you buy it um it's it's not very deep Let's put it that way. You're not going to... It's not going to be a game that I think you don't find the end to quickly. The audio, the call-outs, the video stuff, I think they've got a lot of work to do on that. But, you know, my sense is that they'll get there. It's an OK to good game. It's not a great game. I wouldn't put it in the great candidate. It's OK. Stumbler's thing for the lights on the side of it Is out as well, it really makes the game stand out Sadly no one will see it If you're in a line up But it does look great Actually my wife loved the game, she thought it was brilliant This is the cool thing isn't it I think it would do well on location But ironically it's just never designed for a location It wouldn't last location No It's not It's obviously full of Three dimensional parts everywhere and it hasn't really got a lot of plastics. It's not made for a location. I mean, the other thing is they had them set really low so they were very floaty and I think the game could shoot better if it was a bit steeper. I was going to say that to you. I think the guy's called Raccoon Pinball on YouTube and he went around with his rig and dried some micro-mats. Yeah, he's a good meta man. He's a man, an amazing player, by the way. He was at the UK Open, believe it or not, as well. Was he? Nice. I would have liked to have met him, to be honest, because I spoke to him a few times on Twitch, but I was in that... I was pretty, like, good for you. You've tried out Metallica there, and yeah, I don't know if you've watched his Metallica gameplay video. It's got, like, 3,000-odd views now. It's better than Stern did for their own X-Men reveal. Like, he plays a solid game for a good... 15, 16 minutes, and that convinced us to buy. It was like, I saw the animations, and it was well lit, his rig was well set up, and he's in a noisy area, but you could still hear the game. And I was like, he's done really well to set that up under pressure, because I could see the people behind him kind of like this, going, I want to play my game when you get off it, you know. But he did a really good job of presenting it. And I've noticed as well, when he went around to all the Stern games, they were level, they were picked perfectly I just get the feeling, as you say, it's really weird you go to all these people, like Pimble Brothers was guilty of it as well they don't set their games up right they don't level them I find it bizarre but the thing is I think the Pimble Brothers, I mean Davey and I just added more numbers to guys put some pitch into it, I just don't think they wanted to because I think they knew it would put more effort on the flippers so I kind of see both sides of it but I mean you mentioned Pinball Brothers so Alice okay nice looking game if you like the art, the art does nothing for me really, I said my wife I'd have that in the living room, I was like really let me order one and then she changed her tune slightly but she really liked it, she thought it was a good get out of play fair play I mean the only thing is when you work out the build rate the last person's got a year at least a year long wait because they're not going to start making them until January apart now which I was kind of surprised about and the rate I think it was works out with it's almost like 10 a week so 50 weeks assuming they don't go on holiday you've got a year long wait the interest actually before we pivot to the Pinball Brothers the interesting thing about Dutch Pinball wasn't what they had it's what they didn't have or didn't talk about. So everyone was expecting the fanfare launch of Back to the Future. You know, oh, they're going to announce it. They're going to announce it. They're going to announce it. I knew that they would not announce it. Going into this, everyone said they were going to announce it. I'm like, nah, they're not. Let me tell you, they have a massive issue on their hand, and I don't think they know how to deal with it. What, meeting demand, you mean? Meeting demand, meeting expectations, making money. All three of those things. I don't believe that... I'm going to make a prediction. I don't think Dutch are going to launch Back to the Future, ever. I'm going to make a different prediction. I'm going to bet that they've lost the license. Because if you haven't made a game and you've applied for the license, they can pull it at any time. If someone offers them more money, they'll be like, you've lost that. Sorry. And I think that's part of it. But also I think they've realised that actually having the level of, you know, so Luke Stern, there's only one company that can make Back to the Future in a volume that would satisfy people at Stern. No one else can do it. Jersey Jack definitely can't do it. I mean, they did Guns N' Roses, right? And that was a fairly demanding game. They had quite a lot sold. Yeah over It took them almost two years To get all the games I mean they made nothing but Guns N' Roses for like a year That's pretty impressive now Have you done a tour of their factory? I have done but Look it's the next biggest factory After Stern no question about it But it's still some way off I know they don't have the working capital Stern have got so they don't have all the parts They have They have changed playfield supplier Which is great news Only took them four years longer than it should have done So look I don't think Back to the future Is coming from Dutch Pinball I think that they've They thought it was a great idea to get it I think they're now figuring out Actually oh shit how do we deliver this Here are some things that could happen They could sell the IP to someone For someone else to do it At your point The IP owner could say wait a minute You've done nothing with this we're having it back Give it to someone else I think that's a distinct possibility They could partner with a manufacturer To deliver it Sterna Padroni Now Padroni I don't think I've got Oh you mean Prudetti Sorry Prudetti sorry, but who's Pradoni? Something else, anyway Half Pimble Brothers, Half Pradetti Yeah, I don't know anyway, they could do that but I fear that they're pretty much up to the rise and exist and stuff already Yeah Instead I've got a big factory that they need to keep running and they've done it before they did a contract deal with Medieval Madness for CGC, all the Medieval Madnesses the originals Original kind of Original Thousand Ellies were built by Stern So I think that could happen but I do not believe We will see a designed and Built Back to the future by Dutch Pimble I just don't believe it And I'll be honest with you I knew that they wouldn't announce it I'm glad that they didn't announce it for their sake Because I think that just would have caused chaos For them And I think they need to consider they've got Alice, 500 games ultimately they're going to be a spooky like organisation that does between 500 and 1000 games a year which isn't a bad thing right? no absolutely not, it's fine but then they need to think very carefully about the IP they want like Spooky does, like Looney Tunes, there's not going to be a massive demand for Looney Tunes games there's no massive demand for TCM, but there is a demand for it, right? Scooby-Doo, again, I think the same. Scooby-Doo was probably their better license choice out of recent ones, but it's just the game, I don't know, it just didn't click, did it? Sorry. It's a beautiful-looking game, terrible to play, unfortunately. But let's pivot back to the Pinball Brothers. Yes, so ABBA. Oh my god. It is bad. It's so bad. I think it's difficult, right, to compete in the music pinball category. There's too many good examples out there. There is nothing good about this game. The artwork, which look, Pinball Brothers probably didn't have a choice on the artwork. They were probably told by ABBA what they wanted. Compared to some of the ABBA artwork that's out there, it's absolutely hideous. and again that doesn't bother me i could have put away any artwork doesn't really bother me that much but this one it wouldn't be the choice as an abba i'm an abba fan right sure disco maiden super trooper multiball i am the guy that did that right so um no it it just it literally feels like the cheapest made pinball machine of all time it actually felt worse than spinal tap No. In terms of build quality, yes. I hate to say this, because I kind of like having Spinal Tap as the worst thing ever done in pinball. But I actually think this and Spinal Tap is fighting for supremacy of IPs that went bad. It is... It's strange, because I think that helicopter mech was pretty clever. The helicopter mech reminded me of Parcel Force It's really hard to get a delivery out of it Honestly I was just thinking What is this I got it in a couple of times But it wasn't And even when you got it in there It wasn't a great It's the thing you hit a shot I've hit a shot There's no There's no disco funk There's no feeling a hole in the game. I think we'll probably discuss it in a bit, right? We'll talk about Avatar maybe a little bit more if we can, but I had noticed with Avatar they're not syncing the video to the audio. I mean, like, you know, there's a scene, for instance, where they're shooting from how can I forget it? It's the war that's going on in the first film where they're basically having the fight in the sky. I haven't seen either of the films. I haven't seen either of the films. Look, I'm going to say this now to everyone listening. For the love of God, can you people stop living under rocks? I don't get it. I don't understand when someone says they haven't seen the movie. That's like saying you haven't seen Star Wars. No, it's not. It's been on bloody TV. You could have watched it a million times. I've watched every single Smurfs movie. I'm done with blue people. That's all I can tell you. Right. it's just like two and a half hours long I can't do that no sorry I have to ask this is genuine I'm interested have you watched Alien Romulus I have not no people are just not film connoisseurs I'm sorry most people are not film connoisseurs have you seen the movie the good the bad and the ugly I've seen them all mate our movie library would make you cry For everything you've got, I've got like 50 Blu-rays, I guarantee it Okay, well maybe In our Christmas special we should have A game of Top Trump Movies See who can win it, but look Anyway, Abba It felt cheaply made, the flippers are shocking I mean, they are the worst flippers On any pinball machine I'm not going to defend it because I've got an alien And I know what you mean, they're flippers aren't Terrible, I mean Ball and flippers guys every time you take a shot, the good thing about it is it makes the game hard because every time you take a shot it's in a different place on the flipper that's the one thing it's got going for it it doesn't actually add something, again this game was flat the disco ball it just doesn't do anything the light shows are just no, I'm sorry, where are they this is disco I should be dancing by the game, the audio and okay maybe this is because of the show but it was even hard to hear the audio, if I was there and I had a music pin, I'd be cranking up Stern you could hear Metallica for miles, they'd be cranked up Alice they had that cranked up I just, I don't know what to say about it but I can leave you with one thing, right Alice, sorry Alice ABBA is a pin for the most diehard ABBA fans but, and I wrote this on Pinside, if I was a big ABBA fan I would buy a cheap EM and a big high five and I would just no I wouldn't re-theme it I would just turn up ABBA and listen to it whilst I played any other game the experience yeah exactly the experience will be better and they had Queen there I played that again and it just reinforced it you know it was kind of Thunderbirds Spinal Tap and then Queen Now what we've got is Abba sliding in Between Thunderbirds and Spinal Tap Do you know one day Neil I'm going to get you to be as callous as you are With them with Stern I can do that I can give shit about Stern I mean why can't we have it For example it's the worst game They've ever made it's absolutely fucking terrible In fact it's close to It's close to just being Above Queen in my view Sorry, John, but... I guarantee we're never going to get anybody from Stern on our podcast. I'll just say it now. I am disappointed that once again Stern have gone back on their word and said they wouldn't release another LE. I know I've bought into the LE, but... Okay, let me... But I think... No, what they haven't done is remade an existing Gamers Alley. They've created a new remastered Gamers Alley. Spoken like a true fanboy. I think it's different. I think if they just redone Metallica as it was and you know I'll give you it's a little grey area but I feel they're treading ground I'll be honest with you I don't think the fact that unfortunately black and white Godzilla is going to be more limited than the limited edition which infuriates the fuck out of me but it's hard, you know, starting a company they're trying to make money, that's fine you just have to, it's a choice As I say, I love it I love the artwork, I think the foil on the decals is insane, I know we've already discussed it but that to me is the pin of the year. To me it's too pink but you have to play it to understand why I mean if you go play it and you'll see I thought the premium was too green but I didn't realise that the LE was too pink On the Metallica Sorry I was talking about Godzilla, sorry. Oh, Godzilla. Oh, no, no, the LE. So the premium colours, I think, are awful. The back glass is terrible. I don't know. It looks like the Shrek family. I don't know what they're going for. Yeah, I just didn't like that at all. But the LE, thankfully, they got that right. So, yeah, I mean, Godzilla 70th, go play it. It's pink. I call it Pink Godzilla. And when you play it, you'll know exactly what I mean. Anyway, look, ABBA, terrible queen. Apparently there's a new code coming out, update for queen, that will somehow fix all the fact of shit. I doubt it. I hope for Pinball Brothers' sake that they move away from bloody music pins and go back to what they were good at. Because I do genuinely feel like the guys... Well, okay, I know you're going to catch me on this because you're going to say Andrew Highway made it, but Alien was their best one. And I feel like if they... They did nothing with Alien. I mean, that is the hard... But they did do a good job with the code. If you played the new code where they've got Sigourney Weaver in there now and they've intercorporated it properly, it's the alien game it should have always been. Yeah, but it's the ball and flippers that makes it a good game. Yeah, look, I will say you can always fix that by other means, and I mean that through other bats and stuff like that, but I get what you're saying. It should be a good game. No, anyway, Luke, if I was you, I would stop making pinball. I honestly think, or hire people that know what they're doing, because right now you guys have got no clue about pinball. I'm going to leave it there. I'm going to get abuse for that. I'm going to get shouted at. I'm going to get people putting ABBA singles through my door. I don't give a shit. Sorry, you guys are not helping the cause. Please, please, please either get someone who knows what they're doing Or just go back to playing pinball And collecting them Or whatever it was you did before It's harsh But look sometimes you have to be cruel To be kind And look I have a positive outlook on life As much as I can I just feel that I just feel that It's hard Look It's hard for them to continue and effectively again I don't know maybe they've sold every ABBA that they're planning to make great for them if they have but you know it's not going to win any awards for good game it's not going to you're never going to see it to play it in somewhere I doubt and if you are it won't last for long so the thing is the way I look at this is if a mate of mine was buying this what would I tell them here's what i tell them don't fucking buy it um because because you'll regret it and i you know i know um i think uh julian's got one here um in the uk i think he's got the first le here in the uk and he's loving it that's great if he's loving it it's brilliant but in terms of pinball it's a terrible game and actually something i learned over the weekend over the last week is a lot of people who collect pinball are terrible pinball players. Yeah. Seriously. I mean, I was playing against some folks who were collectors, and I'm like, holy shit, man. How long have you been a collector for? 20 years? I'm like, you're that bad at pinball? Yeah, but some people just have them turned on and look pretty. I'm not joking. I know four or five people that literally never play. Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to ABBA, because it looks fucking hideous. I keep covering on that game. It is Sorry this is a hill I'm going to die on I mean I'm an abba It's like the Blues Brothers As well from Home Pin Again it's just I haven't played it but looking at it First of all they've ripped off An existing playfield And actually the guy The guy Get you off this negative hill because you're Playing on too long I'm going to stop you Look I want your opinion and this is probably the most negative I think it was called Alice Amusements yeah so what they had was some sort of virtual pinball it's a corp apparently so from to be honest I saw them a couple of times but I didn't go near them my bad there's just so much going on but what it looked like to me from where I was staying it looked like it was a virtual arcade but I didn't go near it mate so i can't tell you anything about it since you're so uneducated i will enlighten you so it is a 81 scale cabinet oh okay yeah 21 millimeter instead of a 27 millimeter ball bearings okay um the play field was not present at the show so they had a empty cabinet i'm not poking an empty cabinet it at the event. I don't understand because the cost to put a stall up there must be pretty expensive. So to go there and say we don't know what game we're going to make, we don't have a playfield, we don't actually know what mechs are going to go into it and we're going to deliver it for under $1,000. Their words. And they're doing a kickstarter. Can I please... Can I please plead with everyone? Exactly. it's another Rasa for the love of god just steer clear it's impossible to make a pinball machine good or even remotely good for under a thousand dollars you would be hard pressed to even do it for three thousand dollars I think well Luke I think that's spot on but Luke I am yeah Luke I want I want Edaba to be great because I love the band I can tell you upset because you a fan when I see crimes against IP I would be really upset if I got Led Zeppelin really? that's a good game though I like that game yeah right okay this is what's subjective I love a barren playfield with nothing on it because there's nothing to obstruct it I bet it comes up and down but anyway look, Led Zeppelin I mean look, it's a game that I agree with you it's not the most exciting playfield but actually the way they've coped with that and the rules I think is quite cool but you're right it's not I mean I bought it because it's a great competition game and if you're a collector you like toys, you like pinball moments it's probably not the game for you I mean it goes back to the pin side that game's got the right level of mechs exactly I remember pin side when there was no stairway to heaven and everyone was posting the memes from Wayne's World where he's about to give it that on the guitar and the guy goes and points at the sign i was going to ask you about that i know this is going on long but maybe we can just park 10 more minutes into this but yeah homebrews did you try the lead zeppelin that was brought as a homebrew yeah i did uh it was okay um that had to stay away to heaven you know it looked nice it was i think actually i mean the homebrew section i don't know what it was but it didn't it felt a bit more like the homebrews were still half-baked. See, I thought that genuinely that Marco had done a great job of creating a... No, they did. It was a great space and stuff, but compared to Texas... Oh, yeah, to be fair, those homebrews were very polished. Yeah, it didn't feel quite as good. And look, Marco should keep doing what they're doing and encouraging this. You know, Sonic Spinball was there. That's a really lovely game. The winner was... I don't know if it's another whirlwind re-theme which Great Showman I think it is Yeah I played it and I thought it was okay but it wasn't it just felt like I was playing whirlwind Saw was there again it's by I think the same people that did Saw and it was it's a like I think it was on the same area it looked like it was part of the same group but it's another whirlwind re-theme But yeah look it was good to see that And there was like a tiny little game In this kind of like container I can't remember what it was called But it looked fun But it was tiny Not something anyone's going to buy Did you try Tony Hawk's Pro Skater? I didn't Because actually it was pretty rammed So I had a quick look at it It looked okay But just because there was so much to do Waiting in a queue to play a homebrew Just wasn't top of my priority list Part of the reason is because I'm never going to get to Oldmont The chances of these getting transformed into production Is so low The only game I missed was 8 Ball Beyond Because I think that is There's homebrew And I put TNA and 8 Ball Beyond Kind of in that close to Actually you could make this game Probably Motorhead as well That wasn't there unfortunately But I would really like to see Morehead get made because it was A great shooter Well so let me Actually the other company I made Turner Pinball with Ninja Eclipse That's a great game I really enjoy playing it It's a good game I really enjoy playing it I think they've done a great job of Trying to build a lower end Pinball machine that's fun I got the Brits I said hey You guys go play this game and give me your honest opinion about it. None of them had played it. They came back and said, actually, this is a good game, Neil. I was like, yep, it is. And it's six grand dollars. So they're starting to sell that game. Hopefully it's a success, but I really enjoy playing it. If you get into our country, you want a minimum of ten orders. Yeah, which is fair enough. Otherwise, why would you do it? So I suspect we'll never see it, sadly. But then I played a bit. I was at the Pinball Company stand, Travis and Kerry were there they had loads of fun houses I have to say fun house I've never been a fan of fun house but I do like the new one we had one at the UK Open it played solid through the whole UK Open it got absolutely hammered but it played absolutely great which I was really pleased to see actually Kerry was pleased also because they knew that the game would survive a show and it did They had I think six of them there So that was really good What else did we play Who have I missed I think American Pinball American Pinball had nothing new Spooky had nothing new Spooky had nothing new A bunch of the blitz Piled down to the Spooky factory And the Jersey Jack factory They did tours as well Which was good But I was supposed to go down there But I couldn't make it Mandy wasn't feeling too well one day So I had to cancel a few things But Yeah I mean Looking back the game of the show For me is X-Men Okay That's interesting Yeah because I just think it's I mean I was lucky in the fact that I got to play X-Men before the show Long before the show right But effectively the show was it's launch right I mean Mark Fitzsimmons, Medneck on the forum He's a big collector More of a Bally Williams Early 90s collector He was blown away by it He said X-Men is a total game changer And he wasn't expecting that He also liked Metallica I think everyone Liked X-Men, Metallica Actually we were playing On the Saturday night, it was open until 2 in the morning So we were playing games And actually most of the vendors started Breaking stuff down The only vendor that didn't was Stern So we were just kind of bouncing around all the Stern games And again Matt and Scott Hadn't a big experience Of playing all these games But like holy shit We're playing Deadpool that's actually a good game And we're playing Jurassic Park That's a good game And we're playing Venom I like that I still like Venom to be honest with you I think it was given a bit of a harsh rap Yeah, and actually, interestingly, Stern shared an interesting statistic on Venom. It is by far the best location performing game at the moment, based on their insider-connected data. I was going to say, it's great that you can level up, right? It's got a lot of appeal for that. So if you're an operator, you love Venom because it's playing like hotcakes. So, I mean, that was the show. There was a couple of really great, I mean, Stern did a great job with all the making of stuff, seminars. Keith did a really good talk on JAWS that was quite interesting. There was a talk on licensing that was a bit, it felt a bit pinball old school to me, whereas I've been involved in licensing and have a different experience. There's a 40 years of pinball thing with, I think, driven by, I think it was Jersey Jack that were doing it. Pat Lawler was there and a bunch of other folks. Steve was there. It was okay but again it kind of felt like It feels like when Those folks talk about pinball They're talking about pinball in the 90s Whereas well what about pinball today It just felt a bit Too far focused on the past Rather than actually what's happened more recently There was a good Seminar on setting up an arcade Like this guy did And I mean there was a lot of good seminars As I said, all the big ones are on Martin's pinball news website, so go check them out because it was interesting. Actually, the only one that wasn't interesting, sadly, was Dutch Pinball, so it was the most boring seminar ever. It's based on that expectation of what was going to be, right? Yeah, everyone thought Back to the Future was going to get announced. I mean, anyone who thought that was clearly mad. What else on Pinball Expo? There was a tournament there. It was good fun. The Stern Pro Circuit Did you buy anything while you were there? Any like suit lines or anything like that? Did I? Yeah I bought Actually I bought mostly parts So I bought a board for my Diamond Lady It needs a new board I bought a couple of bits for my James Bond at the club Because we had something on it It snapped Bought a couple of other I bought a couple of the LE speaker lights The ones from Stern Oh yeah the expression light Yeah so I'm going to stick them on my Godzilla I think I bought I didn't buy a huge amount I would have bought two games So Captain's Warehouse Were there doing an auction And They had two games They had one game I would have bid on They had another Stars And people said you've already got Stars But yeah my Stars isn't as good as I would like it to be So I was going to bid on that And I said have you got shipping He's like yeah we've got all that taken care of I said, oh, awesome. And then there was another game called Doodle Bug, an EM game. And, again, I said to the Brits that were there, I said, go play Doodle Bug. It's right next to the Stern stand. Tell me what you think of it. And they went and played it. I said, doodle bug's an epic game, Neil. How did you find out about that? I was like, it's been in a few tournaments. If you haven't played doodle bug, go YouTube it. It's such a weird name. What's it based on? It's based on a bug and a bug that doodles. there's no theme, it's like a a themeless game but it's a huge amount of fun to play it's an EM, Electromechanical game it's one of the best EMs and they loved it, now there was one there for sale actually pretty well priced so I'm ready to buy both these games go to the shipping guys, oh we don't ship outside the US, I'm like what? and actually a couple of other guys were going to buy games as well but they let us down so that's one of my feedback What prices have you found over there to be quite cheap now? Has there been a bit of a price reduction? For a used market, well, I want to be cautious because shows are not the best place to drive market view. I mean, there's a lot of negativity from the dealers about pricing and the market, although they were actually happy because I think X-Men has been a surprise for them And Metallica was a surprise for them I think Metallica went back to the days of FOMO really Yeah so on both those games I think they've done well Much better than they probably would have expected For non-Elwyn games But yeah Interesting to see that I mean a big shout out to Tilt Amusements Who supplied all the games on the floor For Stern They were the kind of dealer that was dealing with them all They must have brought over 100 games, which is great. Brian, Flyland Brian, his face was there. And he was just selling loads of gear. And I bought a couple of things from him. But, yeah, that's probably it for my show. And there was a lot of good meet-up folks I hadn't seen and a few beers here and there. So that was all fun. And then my wife flew home I flew to Sunnyvale because I had some work to do Which is why I'm not at home Because I'm in a hotel right now And it's I'm looking forward to getting home I've got two games that I haven't played John Wick and X-Men LE And it's my wife's birthday party She had a big party At home on Saturday So I come home and I'm literally running around like a headless chicken getting organised for this party yeah you're non-stop Neil, always the way mate, I need a few days I'm looking forward to a few days, unfortunately I thought this was my last international trip but it's not, I'm having to head to another part of the world in about a month's time which is a bit of a pain because I'm looking forward to a bit of rest and a bit of pinball playing frankly, but you always find ways of squeezing it in Neil, I know, well that's it, actually one of the other things I just mentioned is kind of Insider Connected I mean Stern continue to demonstrate they've got big plans for that it's really core to their strategy now and they were big on the fact that no one else has got anything online which kind of made me chuckle You know what, that is one thing I must admit that I'm looking forward to about having a Stern back in the house because I've got older Sterns but I don't have any Insider Connect ones, it's having a game where you have achievements and I do feel like they are right, it's definitely the way forward and I'm always a bit surprised that games like even Labyrinth, it has Wi-Fi so it has the ability to just get game updates online which is great but there's no achievement tracking and I feel like every game has that. That's where I stand when on the scale fight, you know, they're just so big they can do this stuff. Do you think they'll ever get into a position where you can play someone else in your own kind of private head-to-head over the internet? So effectively you're doing a bit like an NBA link, but over the internet. So I don't think so, and I kind of hope they don't. Well, part of me hopes they do, but I think it's quite a hard thing to do and make work right. And look, you're an online gaming player, look how much effort the online game guys put in to make sure everything works. I don't see Stern putting that effort in, which means I think it would be mediocre. What I do see What I do see is So I think what you do is You create a community online And you fight each other's best score So you'll text me Ha Neil I've just beat your score you dick And send a picture of you going Screw you And I'll be running home Bastard's got to beat your score That I think could have big Big potential So I see what you're saying Like a local community scoreboard so to speak. Yeah, exactly. Or your mates. You know, like in Facebook where you become friends, where you do a Web 2.0 kind of interaction, and then you can maybe schedule stuff or I don't know. I just kind of feel that there's an untapped demand in that space. So we'll see. Yeah, there's definitely something else they can do. And actually, just on your side, any other pinball comings and goings? or? No, I would say we got the early access to Labyrinth. Again, big thanks to David for allowing us to do that and obviously do the launch. I will probably be doing another launch, but I'm opening it up potentially to the wider audience in the forum group. I'm going to be probably toying with the idea of doing that when we get our actual Labyrinth in, because I'll have the whole thing then, top of the box. The idea was to do it with X-Men. I might do it with Metallica now, but I'll have to see if the Y-Side Wives open are doing that on her press LE so I think you say that on the 9th of November we've got a big tournament at the Pinball Republic it's called a critical hit tournament and actually what it is is we give out these cards where you can play the cards to kind of change the direction of game like so for example you can have a card that says I get an extra ball or you might have a card that says player 2 and player four scores off the swap. Okay. A lot of fun, but not so serious. At that event, we will have X-Men and Metallica. Oh, very nice. So, you can register. Do you know what? I might actually do it for once, Neil. Come on, mate. I want to try X-Men. If there's a tournament to come to, this one's a good one, because of the cards, it takes the kind of I-must-win kind of Anger if you like From the tournament players I did one a few years ago In my shed And everyone the feedback on it was massively positive So We got some prizes As a prize pool Good thing to come to the club for It's November the 9th And I'm kind of looking forward To running it So you're Metallica I'm assuming that's arriving early because you're probably getting that airdrop Yeah if I can I've asked Phil to say I want an airdrop so hopefully actually big shout out to Phil and Stern for airdropping my X-Men I've been like I mean I literally I sort of said to Zach Sharp who's the marketing director at Stern I said Metallica I like it can you wrap it I'll take it with me unfortunately he wouldn't give it to me but yeah it was a great gig and yeah look market's tough, prices are still going down the pan There's a big thread going on on the forum at the moment I kind of saw it and chuckled everyone's everyone desperately trying to grab onto value that does not exist anymore unfortunately but look good luck with that, hopefully there'll be another Covid so that your dream can come true because that's the only way that it is going to come true and there'll be lots of people saying I don't like Neil when he says stuff like that and I'm like well that's me I'm honest as I can possibly be anyway on that bombshell what's next for you pinball wise are you just waiting for Metallica waiting for got to get my homebrew kit which I've been speaking with Trident Pinball sorry about that so Scott asked me to bring this box back And when I got This box The size of a populated playfield I was like mate I am not There's many things I would If I thought I could get it on the plane I would have tried but I know for a fact They just say no So they've got this thing Where when you measure it If it exceeds a number They just won't let you on Even if it was an empty box they wouldn't let you on Right And it was just over that and I mean I think he was pretty adamant that he was like you know we've done this before it's fine I said look I'm not pushing Neil to do nothing and also he's told me if they reject it it just gets shredded I'm not losing three grand on chip if I'd taken it to the airport and they'd said no I would have just put it in the bin mate I'm sorry I mean I'll be honest with you if I'd kind of got I tried to find the guy and I couldn't if I found him earlier what I might have done was look mate I'll drive it down to FedEx and post it back for you but I think they're going to do that anyway but yeah they're sorting it out it's fine I think like look when it arrives I'll finally be able to start getting all the stuff I've put together onto the wood I think that's the main trick for me at the moment I've been kind of fiddling around with visual pinball messing around with shots and that it's a rabbit hole like you just go oh I could make it do this or I could do that and then you're like oh what if I make it go this way what if I add a guy's hair and it does that and I'm just like I need to make sure I don't go nuts on it. I don't want to do anything crazy. I'm going to keep it simple. It's not going to be a fan layout, but it's not going to be anything like Jack's shots that ricochet off another shot and connect somewhere. It's not easy to make a pinball machine. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. Yeah, I feel like I am in above my head, but I'll get there eventually. Right. We're coming up. We've just hit the 1 hour 30 mark. Yeah. I think Covered a lot Still I mean We could have talked Much more longer about Well it's been a month Since we talked And there's probably Way more we could have discussed But we'll save that But Yeah Watch twitch.tv Slash Neil McRae This Friday at 8 For the unboxing of X-Men And either Me crying Or me Yeah UK time Sorry And it's Friday being October What is it The 24th 25th Yeah Anyway It's a great game And big shout out to everyone Who was involved in organising the expo It was an epic show And actually I was asked to speak at Rob Burke actually asked me to speak at one of the events So I did big up UK Pinfest And the UK Open If you're in the UK Come and see those games Sorry come to those shows if you're here so hopefully we'll get a few more folks coming to both of those events with that Scott all that remains is for us to wish everyone a happy pinball Halloween and Guy Fawkes don't set fire or try fireworks on pinball machines it's not a combination that you should ever do unless it's Abba because I would love to see that blown up out of sheer spite for the wreckage of the IP. I am thinking about doing a YouTube video on when IPs go bad and kind of, you know, when they make the black and white video and they shake it a little bit. I'm thinking of doing that. The hard part is what's the worst IP abuse in pinball? I might have a go at that. It could be a lot of fun. That's easy. Anyway, it's time to go. Final words from you, Scott? Don't always think an Ellie is an Ellie. And with that, bombshell, we'll see you soon. Thanks, everybody. Thank you. Have a nice one. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 6b2247e4-30bf-4ec8-b809-30561b4d5f9b*