# Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 60: We'll Be Nice

**Source:** Triple Drain Pinball Podcast  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2025-02-23  
**Duration:** 72m 4s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/kpJJWVDz

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## Analysis

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast episode 60 featuring hosts Joel and Travis discussing Pinball at the Beach event and detailed analysis of Dungeons & Dragons pinball (Pro vs Premium vs LE versions). The episode covers Evil Dead first impressions from Travis's gameplay, includes humorous banter about a photo from Spooky's Facebook, and provides deep-dive comparison of D&D's mechanics, layout design, and commercial performance. Note: Third host Tom was unavailable due to schedule conflicts.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] D&D pinball is selling exceptionally well with LEs flying off the shelf, exceeding hosts' expectations for the theme — _Travis reports strong sales metrics and unexpected commercial success given uncertainty about D&D theme viability at announcement_
- [HIGH] Voice callouts in D&D were instrumental in driving sales, addressing complaints from Foo Fighters about missing callouts — _Travis directly attributes sales push to voice cast quality and volume of callouts, comparing to Foo Fighters reception_
- [MEDIUM] Evil Dead features double/dual shooter lanes in a wide body cabinet, creating unusual geometry that feels non-standard — _Travis describes initial playfield feel as strange due to geometry mismatch, uncertainty about exact cabinet configuration_
- [HIGH] D&D's dungeon scoop magnet is underutilized mechanically but highly satisfying when needed in progression sequences — _Travis provides detailed gameplay mechanic analysis of scoop functionality in dungeon sequences_
- [MEDIUM] Evil Dead is the most ambitious Spooky production to date with extensive mechanic implementation — _Travis assessment based on single play session; qualifies as subjective opinion with limited gameplay exposure_
- [HIGH] D&D's gelatinous cube magnet is difficult to track visually during right orbit shots due to size obstruction — _Both hosts report consistent visibility issue with cube mech covering ball tracking on right orbit_
- [HIGH] Spooky's Bug confirmed Evil Dead flipper magnet lock design was pre-existing before Jaws fliplock mechanic released — _Bug's direct comment to Travis about design timeline, indicating Spooky designed independently_
- [HIGH] D&D theme resonates particularly with Critical Role fan base due to Matt Mercer's DM involvement and recognizable voice talent — _Travis discusses licensing negotiation strategy and fan attachment to Critical Role storylines_

### Notable Quotes

> "I think it just felt strange to me because it was a wide body right but some of the geometry didn't feel like wide body geometry so I had to wrap my brain around that"
> — **Travis**, ~11:30
> _First impression of Evil Dead's unusual cabinet geometry and playfield design_

> "This machine, if you love mechs, if that's your jam, you will find mechs galore. Mechs all over."
> — **Travis**, ~12:00
> _Key selling point of Evil Dead's mechanical complexity and design ambition_

> "I think one of those situations where, you know, Kevin Smith is in it. Like, hey, do you have any interest? And they hear like D&D, they're like, I'm in."
> — **Joel**, ~31:45
> _Analysis of Stern's licensing strategy and star power in D&D voice talent recruitment_

> "The underrated mech, in my opinion, is actually the dungeon scoop popping out of the playfield... it's not a gimme. It can be a challenging shot."
> — **Joel**, ~42:00
> _Deep analysis of D&D's mechanical design philosophy and shot difficulty progression_

> "I'm going with the Pro. I think it's just fine enough right there... But I think if you do love the Dragon Mech and you want to see it do more than just go up and down, if you want to see it go left or right then yeah by all means the Premium and LE will definitely be your jam"
> — **Travis**, ~20:30
> _Direct Pro vs Premium tier recommendation for D&D based on mech preferences_

> "LEs are just flying off the shelf. And I mean, people are responding to it well. And I honestly, I mean, you and I talked about this off podcast. I didn't know where this theme was going to land."
> — **Travis**, ~25:00
> _Commercial performance confirmation and theme reception surprise_

> "There are certain modes, like the Tiniest Dice utilizes it. But when you're doing a dungeon... those dungeons have levels. So to get down to the next level, the scoop pops up. And it's a tough shot. So it's like a reward."
> — **Joel**, ~45:00
> _Detailed explanation of dungeon progression mechanics and reward structure_

> "If you haven't got a chance to play it yet... any ball that's coming around that right orbit. At least from my vantage point, I have a hard time picking up the ball in time for the upper flipper shot."
> — **Joel**, ~48:30
> _Candid gameplay concern about D&D's cube mech visibility during active play_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Triple Drain Pinball Podcast | organization | Pinball-focused podcast featuring Joel and Travis; episode 60 milestone episode with third host Tom absent |
| Joel | person | Co-host of Triple Drain; owns multiple D&D versions (LE, NLE, Pro); provides detailed mechanical analysis |
| Travis | person | Co-host of Triple Drain; attended Pinball at the Beach; played Evil Dead first time; experienced Pro and Premium D&D |
| Tom | person | Third co-host of Triple Drain absent from episode 60 due to dental and travel commitments; serves as mediator |
| Evil Dead | game | Spooky Pinball's latest release; features dual shooter lanes, extensive mechs, wide body cabinet; played by Travis at Pinball at the Beach |
| Dungeons & Dragons | game | Stern Pinball latest release; available in Pro/Premium/LE tiers; features dragon mech, dungeon scoop, gelatinous cube magnet, upper flipper layout |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Manufacturer of Evil Dead; Bug confirmed pre-design of flipper magnet mechanic before Jaws release |
| Stern Pinball | company | Manufacturer of Dungeons & Dragons; design by Brian Eddy; voice work includes Matt Mercer, Kevin Smith, Gerard Way |
| Pinball at the Beach | event | New pinball show in St. Petersburg, Florida; limited to 1000 attendees; hosted Evil Dead gameplay; featured resort location with beach access |
| Brian Eddy | person | Stern designer of D&D pinball; also designed Shadow pinball; known for three-flipper layouts |
| Christopher Franchi | person | Artist/designer who created Evil Dead's visual design; noted for beautiful playfield artwork |
| Bug | person | Spooky Pinball co-founder/creative director; confirmed Evil Dead flipper magnet design pre-dated Jaws |
| Matt Mercer | person | Critical Role Dungeon Master; featured in D&D pinball voice cast; recognizable talent driving fan interest |
| Kevin Smith | person | Filmmaker/entertainer featured in D&D pinball voice cast |
| Gerard Way | person | Musician featured in D&D pinball voice cast |
| Keith | person | Played Evil Dead with Travis at Pinball at the Beach; featured in Spooky Facebook photo with notable calf definition |
| Kerry Hardy | person | Industry professional featured in Spooky Facebook post alongside Evil Dead gameplay photo |
| Brian Eddy (industry professional) | person | Designer/player featured in Spooky Facebook Evil Dead post |
| Eric Minyer | person | Industry professional featured in Spooky Facebook Evil Dead post |
| Flip for the Cure | event | Annual charity tournament for epilepsy awareness; March 8th in Toledo, Ohio; Triple Drain received promotional shirt with cat on football machine design |
| Foo Fighters | game | Stern pinball title; community complained about insufficient voice callouts; comparison point for D&D's improved vocal design |
| Shadow | game | Brian Eddy-designed Stern pinball with three-flipper layout; comparison title to D&D for layout design analysis |
| Jaws 50th Anniversary | game | Recent Stern release featuring fliplock mechanic; comparison point for Evil Dead's independent flipper magnet design |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Evil Dead pinball (Spooky) - first impressions and mechanical design, Dungeons & Dragons pinball (Stern) - Pro vs Premium vs LE tier comparison and mechanical analysis, Pinball at the Beach event - venue, experience, and community engagement
- **Secondary:** Pinball mech design philosophy and implementation across titles, Voice acting and licensed talent impact on game sales and theme resonance, Upper flipper shot design and difficulty progression in D&D
- **Mentioned:** Cabinet geometry and playfield layout design challenges, Charity tournament and community support initiatives

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.82) — Hosts express enthusiasm for both Evil Dead and D&D with genuine appreciation for design choices. Humor-based criticism (Travis's calf photo jokes) is playful rather than negative. Commercial success of D&D and mechanical complexity of both games framed favorably. Light-hearted banter about production challenges and host absences maintains positive tone throughout.

### Signals

- **[sentiment_shift]** D&D pinball's theme resonance exceeds manufacturer expectations; particularly strong among Critical Role fan base and D&D enthusiasts (confidence: high) — Travis: 'I truly do think that when it was released, the voice call outs out of all the things really helped push this' and 'LEs are just flying off the shelf'
- **[design_philosophy]** Evil Dead's flipper magnet lock mech pre-dates Jaws fliplock design; Spooky's Bug confirmed independent design timeline addressing potential plagiarism concerns (confidence: high) — Joel: 'Bug had made a comment because that flipper does something similar to the flipper lock... but bug said like that was already designed like it was already designed'
- **[design_philosophy]** D&D's gelatinous cube magnet intentionally designed with multiple risk-reward pathways for upper flipper shots, creating three separate multiball progression options (confidence: high) — Joel detailed explanation of magnet lock mechanics: 'you can either start that two ball multi-ball by hitting it back up the ramp again or you can lock it on the magnet down below... then give you three ball multi-ball'
- **[design_philosophy]** Stern intentionally expanded D&D voice callout volume after Foo Fighters community feedback about insufficient vocal design (confidence: high) — Travis: 'if we remember Foo Fighters online, what was the number one thing people were complaining about? It was the call out... with this, it's like it's almost like people at Stern said, if you want call outs, here it is'
- **[market_signal]** Evil Dead positions as Spooky's most mechanically ambitious title to date with extensive mech implementation; hosts frame as significant step in manufacturer's design ambition (confidence: medium) — Travis: 'I think it just felt like one of the most ambitious spookies that's been done you know and it was pretty cool'
- **[event_signal]** Pinball at the Beach established as new boutique event format featuring limited capacity (1000 attendees), resort beach location, and early access to unreleased games (confidence: high) — Travis: 'it was just the newest pinball show that was located... in St. Petersburg, Florida... limited to maybe like a thousand people... There was an actual beach there, an actual ocean'
- **[licensing_signal]** Stern's D&D licensing strategy involved identifying recognizable voice talent (Matt Mercer, Kevin Smith, Gerard Way) with existing fan attachment to generate theme enthusiasm (confidence: high) — Joel: 'I feel like this may have been one of those situations where, you know, Kevin Smith is in it... And I think there's some of these voice actors that are super passionate about this theme'
- **[market_signal]** D&D LE tier selling significantly faster than expected; hosts report inventory depletion ('flying off the shelf') indicating strong secondary market demand (confidence: high) — Travis: 'LEs are just flying off the shelf. And I mean, people are responding to it well'
- **[community_signal]** Brian Eddy's three-flipper layout approach on D&D represents design evolution; hosts consider it his best three-flipper work at Stern (confidence: medium) — Travis: 'To me, this is the best Brian Eddy layout that he's done at Stern' in comparison to Shadow
- **[product_strategy]** D&D tier differentiation strategy: Pro features static dragon mech (up/down only), Premium/LE add multi-directional movement and mirror coating (confidence: high) — Travis: 'But I think if you do love the Dragon Mech and you want to see it do more than just go up and down, if you want to see it go left or right then yeah by all means the Premium and LE'
- **[product_concern]** D&D's gelatinous cube mech creates visibility obstruction for right orbit ball tracking during active gameplay, particularly challenging for players over 6ft tall (confidence: high) — Joel: 'any ball that's coming around that right orbit... I have a hard time picking up the ball in time... It's a fun game. Don't get me wrong, but I want to be transparent and be honest with people'
- **[product_concern]** Evil Dead's wide body cabinet features non-standard playfield geometry that feels unusual to experienced players initially, requiring mental adjustment despite functional flippers (confidence: medium) — Travis: 'it felt strange to me because it was a wide body right but some of the geometry didn't feel like wide body geometry so I had to wrap my brain around that'

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## Transcript

 the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast all right we are back we're back it's been it's been a long time it's been a long time but we're here um and today's going to be a little different today's going to be a little different and you can probably anybody that's on youtube can already see why it's different um it's because we're down a man we're down a man it's you're just stuck with me and travis so travis you uh what you're pointing oh he turned his lights on behind my lights fell down do you see that yeah tell monica to step up her she's out of her game she's out of the country right now well that's not getting fixed yeah oh man oh oh one second trying to do a technology all right there you can't see it now It's fine. It's covered up. We are unfortunately down a man and that's because Tom is, is a busy man. Tom's a busy man. He had like, we were trying to record and we're like, we could do this, this or this. And he's like, well that week I have a dentist saying that week I'm traveling to this, that week I'm traveling to that all pinball, all this. I mean, when you're that awesome, you're going to be pulled in that many different directions. So we tried to get a third wheel. We tried to get a third wheel. And unfortunately the third wheel we, we, we had lined up, got sick. So it's just Travis and I. And did you know, Travis, this episode's 60. 6-0. 60. It's a lot, yeah. And I'm still having issues, even at episode 60. Like, do you see the red dot right here? Can you see that? I do. I accidentally hit record on my camera. So he's recording now, so his camera's probably going to fill up. And my lights are falling apart here. Yeah, this is a very professional stream. Just roll the song. Well, no, I'm not. I'm not going to roll the song. I'm not going to do a song. Okay. Well, I'm listening. I'm going to turn off this recording. Go ahead. Keep going. He's going to turn off. We're about to shut down the whole thing. I'm not going to do the song because we're not three guys. We're two guys. And normally I would label this as 59.5. It's a half and a half. But I'll tell you right now, you don't have to be a marketer to know 0.5 episodes don't get it. So I'm sorry, Tom, that you're not here for episode 60, but we'll celebrate next one. Um, I do want to also call out before I forget this shirt right here. This is a flip for the flip for the cure. This is a, an annual charity charity tournament, um, that's hosted. So this year it's a March 8th, March 8th in Toledo, Ohio. It's for epilepsy. Um, and yeah, I think the guy's name is Jason. He had reached out to us and was like, Hey, what's your address? I want to send you some shirts. So, um, it's an awesome shirt. My kids actually love it because there's a cat. There's a cat on a football machine. My son's already stole my shirt. That's why I don't have it anymore. But it's awesome, though. So if you happen to be near or if you're near Toledo, March 8th, Flip for the Cure, please participate in that tournament. Or if epilepsy is something that's close to you guys and you want to travel and enjoy that tournament, please do. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure there's merch or some other way you could support overall. But, yeah, I thought that was a cool cause. It was awesome to get a shirt from it. And I just obviously we would love to support and encourage that tournament. Speaking of support, this is the one thing I've just our Patreon people. Thank you. We finally we finally took the money that we've made on Patreon and we divided it three ways. And so Travis bought blankets. He bought blankets for his basement. So hopefully the quality. I haven't spent it yet. I'm going to Vegas. I'm putting it all in red. Maybe you should buy some more tape for your lights in the back. Yes. And Tom, I don't know what Tom's doing, but it's a struggle. Go ahead. Keep telling the viewers. Thank you real quick. Overall. Thank you. Thank you for all the support in this. Honestly, what we've been using the money for so far, we've, we've sponsored some tournaments with it. We've paid for Zen caster and other stuff. So other expenses, but I know the guys, heckled me enough last time thinking that I was holding on to all, all the support funds that we had. So I went ahead and divided that three ways and we should all be good. Maybe Travis will buy another backwards hat or some sweatpants or something. Something. Oh, you can see my sweatpants, too. I'm actually working here. I'm taking my lunch break to do this. Okay. Well, enough of this. We only have roughly an hour. We only have roughly an hour to record. It's just going to be the two of us. So, Travis, I'll do this. I think I will be nice. I'll be nice to you. Without Tom here to be the mediator or, you know, to calm the storm, right, to ship and all that, I'm going to be nice. If you mispronounce something, I'm just going to let it slide. You know, if you just, if I will just, I'm going to be nice. I'm going to be nice to you. I don't believe you at all. I don't believe this. I'm not falling for this. So our pre-recording meeting was pretty short and sweet. Basically, we'll start with Evil Dead just because I can't really contribute to the conversation yet. I know Travis went to Pinball at the Beach. So maybe you can mention that. Pinball at the Beach, new show down in Florida. Everything that I saw from afar, it looked awesome. It looked awesome. It looked real relaxed, warm, everything. But it was a really cool opportunity for a lot of people to play some of the newer stuff. And you did. You actually played Evil Dead. So if you want to, you know, overall thoughts on Pinball at the Beach and then just your quick, you know, initial thoughts of playing Evil Dead. That would be great. Okay. I can do that. Am I doing that now? Are we literally not doing any intro? Are we not doing an intro at all? No, I'm not doing a song. There's three of us. There's two of us. Oh, okay. You're being serious. All right. We have an hour. You know what's hilarious in this production meeting, right? There was nothing mentioned like, hey, we're going to talk about Pinball at the Beach. Like, this is just throwing on me for the viewers and listeners. Roll with me, man. Okay. Okay. I got you. I got you. I got you covered, too. Let's do this. Perfect. It was fun. Oh, great. Yeah. No. Okay. Yo, like, if you're listening to this and you went to Pinball at the Beach, obviously, you know, it was a good time. So if you don't know what Pinball at the Beach was, it was just the newest pinball show that was located, I think, in St. Petersburg, Florida. I'm pretty sure that's where we were at. But anyways, we were on the coast. So there was an actual beach there, an actual ocean there. There was a bar right there. There was plenty of drinks to go around, plenty of pinball to go around. And it was just, it was a good time. And I think it was limited to maybe like a thousand people that could be in there at any one time. So there was a tent at the resort, at this resort that we were at. And I mean, it was just cool. That's all I really know to say. Lots of pinball people there, Lots of friends there, lots of drinks to go around and lots of lots of games to be played. But we did have issues, though, Joel. OK, eating at the restaurant there. OK, anybody listening to this knows what's going on. Somehow the fire alarm kept going off every single night, like clockwork. The fire alarm would go off. And sure shit. Every single time I sat down at this restaurant to eat, the fire alarm would go off and we could not get our food. We would have a cigar. No. Were you the cause? No. It wasn't even us. It wasn't even us. And yeah, so we always had to get up and leave. It took us, I think, three times. The third time we went there, because we're psychopaths, we just kept trying to go there to eat. We finally got our food. So we finally figured it out. It just took a little while. But overall, the show was cool. Speaking of which, like you mentioned, Evil Dead, it was there. and you know playing it it's i'll be honest with you when i first stepped up and played it it felt it felt a little weird and here's here's why it's not because it shot bad not because like the flippers just felt like they were soggy or anything like that i think it just felt strange to me because it was a wide body right but some of the geometry didn't feel like wide body geometry so I had to wrap my brain around that wasn't it isn't it a why it's in a wide body cabinet but isn't it more like a standard body because there's two shooter lanes right if it is a double barrel if it is that's the way it felt and so that could have been it like it was just freezing up my brain and I was just trying to just sort my shit out basically whenever I was playing it but overall I mean I thought it felt like one of the most ambitious spookies that's been done you know and it was pretty cool. Like I enjoy evil dead for what it is. I've watched all the movies. It's been a long time ago, but I remember watching all the movies. So it definitely felt like when you press start, you're in the evil dead universe. Like it doesn't feel like anything skipped out and this machine, if you love mechs, if that's your jam, you will find mechs galore. Mechs all over. Oh, all over. All over. Um, the biggest question mark for me, mech wise is, um, the flipper sling. Is that cool? Is it weird when the ball hits it and you expect the sling to go off and it just does? Is that how well on that? Well, I played enough pinball to run into passive slings. So that wasn't really that big of a deal. It did take me a few to get used to using a separate button for that little mini right there. Yeah. You had to get your mind around that. But I did also find some of the modes I played. I wasn't really using it all that much. So I was bypassing it mostly. However, I did get a chance. Of course, the pictures are floating out there anyway. So but I played a few games with Keith at the same time on it and he got into some mode to where I'd love to make a comment on that picture if I but I did. I did say that. OK, that's a size. I won. I didn't say I was going to be nice about that picture. Let me defend myself here. We're going to go. We're going to we're going to go. If you want to talk about the picture, I'll talk about. Oh, you're the one that brought it up. You're the one you're bringing it up. I was talking about Evil Dead. For people, go to Spooky's Facebook. We are 10 minutes into it. Joel said, I'm not going to say anything. I haven't been mean yet. I'm saying go to Spooky's Facebook page and scroll down and you'll say, hey, it's cool to see. There was a post that says it's cool to see some industry professionals play our game. And there was a picture of Brian Eddy playing it. There was a picture of Eric Minyer playing it. And then there's a picture of Travis and Keith playing it. And I can stop there, Travis. You want me to stop? That's fine. I can stop there, but Travis is in the pink shirt. We're going to say two things here. One, I will fully accept the only reason why I'm even in that picture is because Keith was next to me. Yes. I took the picture because of Keith. Right. But at least, okay. But you got to admit, though, the picture with Kerry Hardy with the plaque next to all the other industry people. It reminded me of the Big Bird meme next to Darth Vader going into the tournament. So that's where we're at with this. Second off, that camera's playing tricks, let me tell you. Because there's two reasons here, all right? First off, we're not going to talk about Evil Dead. Everybody strap in, grab a beer, grab a coffee, whatever you're doing right now. Okay. We can all accept, if you've seen Keith, his calves are obviously like muting calves. It's insane. They're so big. He's got the biggest calves. It's like five Christmas hams packed together in a stocking. And so, one, he's closer to the camera. You've been around me, Joel. I'm not a small person. But I've never seen you in shorts, Travis. I've never seen you. I squat over 400 pounds. It must be all five, then, because it's not coming from your calves, bro. That's what it looks like. that's why as soon as as soon as i saw it and monica saw it she's like what is going on here and i'm like i don't know ai like just like did some shit to my legs or something but yeah it is just look at the picture guys i'm not gonna say anything i'm not gonna say anything about it no i look like i'm a little kid like like next to his papa and he's just like overlooking my shoulder We're like, you should hit that one, son. Oh, boy. Well, when you guys first sent me the picture, I thought, shit, they're going to give me shit about my pink Hawaiian shirt. But no. No, you know I like colorful, fun shirts. I have zero problems with the shirt. Do you know what the funniest part is? It's the lower half that I think you would – they should crop that photo. No, here's the – no, I will own it. Leave it up there. That's like just perspective. I don't care. Here's what cracks me up about that photo, Joel. Yeah, yeah. When I first saw that, I wasn't even thinking calves, right? because I've never once heard anybody in my life say, oh, you have small calves. Like, I've never heard it. Of course, I've never been next to, like, five-tier Christmas ham Keith Elwin next to me with his calves. So, yeah, it's perspective there, right? He has a killer beard, killer calves. What can I do? F me. So, basically, what I'm getting at here is that when I zoomed in and I looked. You had to zoom in, yeah. Well, here's the thing. Because I didn't even think of the calves. I was thinking I had my beach shoes on and I wasn't wearing my socks. And my tan is just like out of this world. I mean, my ankles and my feet are wider than this. I didn't notice the tan lines. See, that's what I mean. Nobody noticed what I was like, oh, God, people are going to see that. But, yeah. So, Evil Dead, great. Excellent job, guys. Excellent job. Oh, man. I saw that picture and I just was like, oh, so good. Who took that pic? Was it Bug or was it Luke? I don't know. Who do I need? They did you wrong, bro. Why didn't they wait for this shot, like a perspective shot, so you can actually see the whole thing? Yeah. You have better camera angles. I look like I have Kevin Durant calf in that picture. It is nuts. They're there, man. It wasn't fair. It wasn't fair. I don't get it, man. I'm going to disappear. I'm doing nothing but calf raises for the rest of the year. Screw the beard. I'm done with that. Good luck, man. Good luck. don't it's yeah i just i laughed too hard and oh my heart but hey i didn't i was you know your body man it's be proud of it your body be proud of it just uh you're a beautiful boy i don't know what am i supposed i'm not supposed to be mean right i'm gonna be nice i don't i try to be the good looking one on this podcast but obviously people are just trying to tear me down you have a better shot with tom not on you know that's true top two today that's true that is true all right so appreciate being here um no you loved it you're right 10 of this podcast spinning my calf muscles thank god just this is great pinball content yeah so uh evil dead yeah so there has modes it has evil dead it has mechs has all that but what i was getting at is the only time that i can recall using the upper flipper a lot is when Keith got into some mode with the hand going back and forth. Yeah. Right? And then he would shoot the ball in there. You could also stage right there when it comes back in the wire form. Well, with the upper flipper, you could leave the flipper up. Oh, that's right. And it stops above it, and then you just kind of wait and go, pick a shot, whatever you're doing. I didn't see it go up the left ramp, but I know I saw it go up the left orbit a couple of times. I remember Bug had made a comment because that flipper does something similar to the flipper lock. that um that uh flip lock that's in jaws it is but but the ball is on top of the flipper instead of here it's on top so that makes it that makes it interesting well what was funny was bug said like that was already designed like it was already designed it was already in the game and then jaws comes out and he sees flip lock he's like oh like just kind of like but hey it's um i love it i love we had a similar situation with uh what was it was avengers came out with the with the With the spinning disc, the portal disc. And then it was like two months later, two months later, wow, what's the, Guns N' Roses came out. The spinning disc with the hat. And then fast forward to Foo Fighters where they had in the inlanes, they had the targets in the inlanes. And there was like two months later, Godfather comes out with a target in the in lane. So it's just, it happens. It happens. I mean, people make weird comparisons to all the time. It's like we've heard D&D or Dungeons & Dragons is like Labyrinth because it has an upper flipper and a loop shot. There's nothing about D&D that's – well, hey, that's a decent transition. We can take it now unless you have more you want to say about Evil Dead. No, no, no. I'm good. I'm good. I mean, Evil Dead's cool. Congrats to the spooky people. I mean, we'll elaborate more on it once you get a chance to play and then go from there. I think – so Zach's on vacation this week. I think he's getting – if not, maybe he's already received his Evil Dead. I think he's probably still in a box. So hopefully, I mean, maybe as early as next week, if not the week after, I'll have a chance to have an Evil Dead here and stream it. It's going to be an interesting game to stream because that'll be probably the first game that I'm going to have to cover up when I'm not streaming it so my children don't see it, which is a shame because the art is beautiful. Franchi definitely killed it on that. But OK, so D&D, we have both you and I have both played a lot of D&D. I have played the LE exclusively. You had a very short period on the NLE, and then you've had a lot more time on the Pro. I've had four games on the NLE. Yeah, you sure have. We'll start with that because I've had multiple people reach out. I'm in on a Pro, but after watching video, maybe I should update to the Premium or vice versa. So overall thought comparison between Pro and Premium. I mean, if it's my preference with what I'm playing, I'm going with the Pro. I think it's just fine enough right there. I don't mind it. But I think if you do love the Dragon Mech and you want to see it do more than just go up and down, if you want to see it go left or right then yeah by all means the Premium and LE will definitely be your jam Of course you know if you want powder coating you want all that mirror yeah All the bells and whistles Oh yeah of course And I mean I can report like straight up just because of the way our sales have gone I mean, the game's doing excellent. Good. You know, like LEs are just flying off the shelf. And I mean, people are responding to it well. And I honestly, I mean, you and I talked about this off podcast. I didn't know where this theme was going to land. Like, I had no idea because I wasn't familiar with the theme. It's very rare. I typically have a pretty good fill with the velocity of cell that's going to come with the machine. This one I had no idea where it was because all I knew was the big dragon mech is most likely on it. It's D&D. Let's kind of see what happens, right? That could mean anything. You just don't know until you see the design, the artwork, the direction. And I truly do think that when it was released, the voice call outs out of all the things really helped push this. Yes. Like I really do. Because if we remember if we remember Foo Fighters online, what was the number one thing people were complaining about? It was the call out. Yeah. Like oddly enough, like where's the call outs? Where is this? Where's that? And of course, I never thought there was an issue with that. But with this, it's like it's almost like people at Stern said, if you want call outs, here it is. We're going to chunk it all at you right now. So I think that is helping a little bit as well, pushing that out there with that type of voice cast. Yeah, and I've definitely experienced just with people that have reached out to me and whatnot or showed up in stream. There's a lot of D&D fans out there that, you know, I played D&D for three years, and it was just a fun thing that I did with a few friends and family members. And I loved it, but I just enjoyed it because it was a fun, social, fun thing. But I've learned, I mean, there are D&D fans that are not only do they play it maybe multiple times a week, but then they also their D&D critical role is very popular. But there's others like it of these essentially shows that are whether it's streamed weekly or YouTube weekly, where there are people that are really into following these storylines and they get attached to the characters that they that are being portrayed and the voice actors. So I don't know who was particularly negotiating the license or working with the license, but I feel like this may have been one of those situations where, you know, Kevin Smith is in it. Like, hey, do you have any interest? And they hear like D&D, they're like, I'm in. And I think there's some of these voice actors that are super passionate about this theme. And it shows. I think the voice work in the game is fantastic. And they got recognizable names, Matt Mercer being the main one, which is he's the dungeon master of Critical Role. um but kevin smith is huge gerard wade is huge i mean some huge names um so for the dn the the avid dnd fans boy they gave they did your fan service they got a dnd magic artist they got all the voice actors names that you'll recognize um and it just it really truly feels and looks dnd uh for non-dnd people though it you see the dragon mech is huge that's the thing the dragon mech you saw it at media day as well the dragon mech is way bigger than than what the pictures show you and so uh it really brings you in that immersion um the one comment i will make about pro verse premium though is um when i was at media day i was super impressed by the pro i was like honestly you know the the dragon spinning the balls out at you is cool but that multiple so chaotic that having the balls shoot around the orbit felt very similar. And so part of me was like, I hope there's other instances in the game where the dragon spits out the balls to give you something besides that one multiball. As of right now, there isn't. But to me, though, the mech, the underrated mech, in my opinion, is actually the dungeon scoop popping out of the playfield. And the reason I say that, I've really grown to enjoy it. And the reason I say that is because it's not a gimme. It can be a challenging shot. And the way they implement that shot, there are certain modes, like the Tiniest Dice utilizes it. But when you're doing a dungeon, a town dungeon, once you complete all the modes in a town, you have a chance to do the dungeon, which is kind of a little mini wizard mode. Those dungeons have levels. So to get down to the next level, the scoop pops up. And it's a tough shot. So it's like a reward where it's like, douche, you hit the scoop and you're like, yes, okay, next phase. and he gives you that second to breathe and that's so satisfying hitting that scoop when you need to to reward you to the next level and the way you do that on the pros you just hit the the center spinner shot which the center spinner shot's the easiest shot in the game so it's like you take a moment and you make it rewarding first just like yeah you just hit the you just hit the center spinner shot again so i do think i think it's an underrated mech i think it's it's utilized well and honestly, if I went from a premium to a pro, that would be the thing that I'd miss, in my opinion. I don't think I'd miss the dragon movement as much, but I do think I would miss the dungeon scoop. The dungeon scoop has been pretty cool. See, that's kind of curious because after playing it for a few, the mech I'm most impressed with is actually a cube. Sure. That thing's pretty cool. Yeah, the way the magnets work. I think it's... So I got to put a caveat on this because it can't... It's a fun game. Don't get me wrong, but I want to be transparent and be honest with people. If you haven't got a chance to play it yet. One of the things that I've had a tough time with is any ball that's coming around that right orbit. At least from my vantage point, I have a hard time picking up the ball in time for, you know, for the upper flipper shot. Yeah, it's yeah, because that that cube is so big, it covers it up. It's hard for me and I'm roughly six one. You're like an ogre. It's like eight and a half feet tall. So I imagine you have a difficult time. So you can't see it. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. so but the mech itself though in terms of what it does it's interesting because you can you know you can hit the left orbit that turns to the left ramp you can hit it through that gelatinous cube it works its way around from the left ramp to the right side and then it catches on that magnet which that part's pretty cool like i mean it's just you know that's a basic pinball thing right the magnet catches what's really cool is is what happens afterwards to where you have options where you can either start that two ball multiball by hitting it back up the ramp again or you can lock it on the magnet down below, which I think it's actually, it's the same magnet, right? Same magnet, yeah. I forget, yeah. So you can lock it down below it on the right orbit, but you got to hit the right orbit shot to do that. And then what's really interesting is, I think it's, I'm pretty sure I'm getting this right. If you hit the right orbit again, that just gives you a three ball multiball. Whereas if you hit the left ramp again and you knock the ball off the top magnet, you get a four ball multiball. So that right there is kind of cool. Like, I like the idea of utilizing a mech or some type of magnet, whatever you want to call it, to be able to create these different stages of just risk reward, trying to get as much as many points or as many balls as possible into play as you want to do. So that in itself is I mean, I find that far more fascinating than anything else in the game. I've actually had a good time doing that. But the funny enough is I don't really do it that often when I'm actually playing through the game. but when it does happen, I mean, it's, it's a pretty cool moment. Well, the other thing though, is it's, is that magnet is a setup shot. And what I mean by that is if you hit the far left scoop FISMO shop, it will then eject the shot up past that flipper and the magnet is supposed to grab it. Is that a hundred percent? No, but it's, it's, it's a very consistent thing where it'll grab the ball. And then that it's basically you're feeding that upper flipper in a very consistent way. And so because of that, there's two upper flipper shots and a target. The left ramp is an upper flipper shot. There's an inner loop, which is an upper flipper shot. And then there's a dungeon target. But you can also, with that thing, on a premium RLE, you can hit the scoop, the dungeon scoop, if it pops up, and you can hit the captive ball, which is the critical hit target. So there's a lot you can do with that upper flipper. And the fact that you can stage that upper flipper in a consistent, repeatable way, really, there are some pinball machines where the upper flipper shots are really hard and you're rewarded for it when you hit it. But on this game, it's just another shot. I have zero complaints when the enemy is on an upper flipper shot because I know I can set it up in a reliable way so I can hit it. And that, I love that. There's something about hitting consistently and cleanly with an upper flipper. it's it's so much more satisfying so the left ramp from the upper flipper shot is is a very enjoyable shot so i i that was just one of those things until you play it that magnet really doesn't they've utilized that magnet so well with the layout i think doesn't the magnet catch too if you hit the shortcut 180 shot that's sometimes that's it yeah that's in between the spinner and the right ramp i'm pretty sure you can backhand that so the shortcut shot which is kind of like a horseshoe basically you can backhand that from the right ramp so it's one of those things where if an upper flipper shot's lit, you have the ability. It's like, well, do I want to hit FISMO shot to do it? Do I want to try to backhand it to hit the shortcut to feed it? Or do I want to be crazy and hit the left orbit with full speed to hit it? But you have three easy ways to get that ball in play. And comparing that to a lot of other games with an upper flipper shot where you may only have one way to get the ball in play, it's awesome. And this is a good question for you, Travis, I had a buddy shout out Derek. He asked me the question. He said, do you like D and D or shadow more? Because they're both Brian Eddy games. They both are his only three flipper layouts. So which one from a layout standpoint, and even if you want to bring in toys and mechs, which game do you like more? Shadow or D and D? I mean, honestly, I'd probably say shadow just because of the way that the ramps are, the furbos and all that. Furbos are awesome. Yeah, controlling that, going back and forth, upper play field is actually a fun upper play field to play because it's not necessarily your classic used flippers, right, or anything like that. I like doing loops on it. So, I mean, I'd probably have to go with Shadow, but that's not to say, oh, D&D, like, isn't fun. Like, to me, this is the best Brian Eddy layout that he's done at Stern. That's false. Like, I like it better than Stranger Things. I owned a Stranger Things for a while. I like it better than Venom, you know, and then Mandalorian. Had Mandalorian for a while. So I think that this one, for sure, it's just, it's one of those things that when you get a layout that's more dynamic than anything, that it has three flippers or more than three, as long as it doesn't feel convoluted to the point that it's just like you can't get anything done in the game, right? This feels like you can get through the game with the way the layout is. So I think that's where a lot of people are going to get attached to that or they're going to have more fun with it because of that. I completely agree, and there are plenty of games that I've played with a third flipper that that third flipper may have one shot. It's like all that, they put in that entire mech and then mess with that whole geometry to give you one shot with that upper flipper. And if it's a stern, sometimes that upper flipper is a stand-up target. Yeah, oh yeah, like Led Zeppelin. Yeah. So but yeah, I just think I really have enjoyed the layout. And to me, the shadow versus D&D question, it's hard to be. I love the metal snappy ramps that you get with the Furbos in shadow. I would love that type of diverter in a modern game because the speed at which you can switch things around is so cool. Yeah. But I would easily say I think I would put shadow and D&D as Brian Eddy's top two designs, in my opinion, when it comes to the layout. Yeah, Shadow just plays fast. Like, if you really want that pin to play fast, that can play fast. And you don't want this game to play fast. Right, D&D is not a fast-playing game. In my opinion, it's not. Now, you can turn it into that if you're going to be a savage and just go after the dragon the entire time. Yeah, you can make it play all kinds of crazy then. Let's also talk about the shield, because one thing that I didn't really start to utilize with the shield until it was here is not only is the shield great for protection, But the way it's designed, you can use it to set up two other shots rather reliably. You're supposed to be able to say, yeah, I will give the major caveat because I played on a couple of location games. It's very setup dependent. Yeah. And you might find like you'll have to change some stuff around. Maybe. It just depends because you might be able to hit the right ramp like I played on one to where it could not hit the right ramp no matter what. But it would hit the left orbit clean. That's where I am. Yeah. And then I've seen the opposite where the right ramp is clean. Left orbit is not. It's hitting off the standup targets instead. So that's where my, the game that I have, the way it's set up. So what we're saying is you pop the shield up and then you let the ball just rest. Yes. You hit the action button, the shield pops up and you let the ball just rest. And it's going to rest either because of the way it's shaped, either on the left side or the right side. So if it's resting on the right side, you can just let the ball sit there. And then when you flip with the right flipper, it on mine, it hits the left orbit every time guaranteed. And then if it's sitting on the left side of the shield and you flip with the left flipper, it might hit the upper right ramp. And what's weird is there was a period of time. There was two or three days where mine would do it rather consistently. It would hit the upper right ramp, which is to me the hardest shot in the game. That's the hardest shot for me to hit. So there were modes where it's like, that's the shot I need. It would be like, I almost want to build up shield not to protect myself just for the layup, the T-ball shot to hit that ramp. um and i just that's awesome like what a unique physical feature to aid in that and i i i neither of us really you realize that or or tried to start building that into our game plan when we're at the media day and i'm curious from a tournament standpoint if people you know depending on how the game's set up if people might utilize the shield to hit shots versus protect you know for safety i don't know yeah i mean i have lots of thoughts on that but you know i don't know how much time do we have to discuss that you know what i mean true true i think it's it's just it's very early to consider this game for tournaments and i mean it's obviously stern's going to have their launch parties either way so whether we like it or not this pin's going to get dragged into tournaments kicking and screaming whether it's ready or not so it'll be interesting to see I'm trying to figure out I have the launch party video ready to go Joel I kind of want to give you these I want to give you these strategies so you can try it because I think I can get you over 800 million I'm pretty sure 500 million actually it's Joel I can get you over 350 million Joel I can already get over 300 I think my high score is like 400 something oh yeah we'll get over that well but honestly though I have not I haven't prioritized a shot for points at all Like, right. This game, because you're not playing in tournaments or, you know, launch part. Yeah. It's, it goes both ways. There's other games though, where it's like, I don't know, most of the time in my head, if you can crack a billion on a stern, you've done something. So there are some times where I turn that on and I'm like, okay, I got a super jackpot shot or I have this or I have that. I just haven't even thought about the word jackpot or play field multiplier like this game. Yeah. The way my brain, and maybe we will just transition into this, but yeah, we can talk about. This game, I had Elizabeth Elizabeth Gieske on stream the other day, and she made a comment of like it really took. She's a tournament player, very skilled tournament player. Obviously, Elizabeth Gieske was involved in Jaws. She's been involved in some other games. She wrote almost every mode in D&D. And she said when she first got in it, she really had to change her mindset on this game because it's very clear. This is a passion project for Dwight that the goal of this game is an epic journey to to have very fun story based character experience, level up journey that you're going to work through, whether using pin save over time or just how far are you going to get in this journey in one game? And honestly, I think points tournament play. They put that on the back burner. That's on the it's in the game. It's pinball. We understand it. But the goal of this game is the journey. And for me, that's how I like playing pinball. So for me, I'm loving every second of it. For a player like you, I know this is a foreign language. This is like, how do I do this? How do I have fun? Yes and no. Yes and no. So it's one of those interesting things. When you look at, and I'm sure there's several people that listen to this podcast that have played at Stern Pro Circuit events, won them, played in world championships. like the reality is is that if you are if you consider yourself above average player you know you can put up a billion points on a stern whatever and you have a game at home there's two ways that you really approach it you're either going for score or you're going for a wizard mode and oftentimes depending on just how the software is and how the rules are you may not have to worry about score when going for a wizard mode it's more about progression anyways yep like completing something, starting something, doing something like that. So, I mean, I think if you're looking at this and you're realizing, okay, wait, they're prioritizing a story over points. I don't want that to dissuade the players that do focus on points and do play tournaments from not at least trying out this pin. Like there's still, you could still min-max your way to a billion, two, three billion points on this game There always a path And it just that path becomes even more apparent because the focus is more on story than points If your focus isn on points obviously there going to be a lot more imbalances up front that's going to be able to be exploited. That's, I mean, that's just what it is, right? It's just, that's just what happens. But from a narrative perspective, if you're looking towards just progression, getting through it, then yeah, this pen does cover that, right? Because there are rules, there are modes up front to go through the towns and keep trying to get to the end. And I think, what is it? They have one part of it so far that's done that you can get. So I think it's that, cause I saw this character for the first time yesterday. Somebody whipped, yes, somebody whipped out that character on me when I was like, Hey, let's play a game of D and D on location. They're just like, let me log in. I'm like, what is this character? I haven't seen them yet. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, obviously people are getting through it and people are trying out different things and i think that this is the type of game that because there's so many callouts and because it's story-based progression it lends itself to a lot more updates in the future that focuses that focuses on expansion right not not so much trying to fix like that a mode just needs to play different right yeah i mean there's always bugs and stuff like that but you get what i'm saying they're not gonna have to like change around entire modes just to fit something to make somebody happy it's more about expanding the universe is what it becomes so they're um just a brief overview um there's there's six well there's seven towns in the game but the center town doesn't doesn't have any unique modes they have some stuff dark hold yeah but the other six towns only four of them are unlocked at the beginning and um the bottom two towns only have one mode the middle two towns westgate and arabelle are the bottom two and then you got greenest yeah greenest and then cobalt town or those are the middle two and both of those have three modes each and then the top two are dragon nest dragon spear and uh i have no idea good luck saying that gaunt gaunt le grim gone grim yeah what's really cool though is so the first the bottom four cities are the only ones unlocked at the beginning and um so the idea is to play the dungeon within that city, you have to be at all the modes. So if you play either the bottom two, they only have one mode. So you have one mode, you beat it or lose. It doesn't matter. You beat it or lose. You're not going to lose because the way the game works is if you drain, you know, if you start a mode and you drain in ball two, you're still in that mode. In ball three, you're still in that mode. If you drain in ball three, I mean, the game's over. Now, if you're using pin save and you log back in, you can start that mode again. You can start. So it's hard to fail a mode. now once you beat all the modes you can play a dungeon dungeon's a different story dungeon you can absolutely fail a dungeon and the way that you fail a dungeon in this game is you lose your health you pass out you're knocked out so every character your entire party has hit points and it's basically time and so while you're playing the modes and you're being attacked you will lose hit points and so if you play it long enough you can get kicked out of the dungeon because you died. Now, you didn't drain. You just took too long. And so if you get kicked out of a dungeon, you can lose the dungeon and you can't go back in. That's kind of unique. That's kind of unique. Now, if you drain out of it and you're using pin saving, you come back. You can get back into the dungeon. But it's weird. It's a weird – it's a fun way to play, though, because at least the way my brain works, the top two cities have the level three modes, So you have to complete the level one and two of those to get to those cities to play those modes. So those modes are harder and those dungeons are harder. And those dungeons are ones that it's like me. I'm I'm exploring the whole map and trying to level up my character as much as I can before I try to take those on because I don't want to lose. I don't want to I don't want to lose that because I'm playing every time with pin save. I'm just I'm just slowly progressing through the game. Joel save. It's so great. It's such a fun way. It is like I'm glad that they're doing something like this, because what I keep telling a lot of people, it's not every single release needs to be a tournament pin. It's perfectly fine. We've already got hundreds out there. Not every single new release has to be that. It can be something different for somebody. People play like there's more people that play pinball that don't play in tournaments. Right. There's always that person that just has like their man cave at home or a family has their family room and they happen to have that one pen that's just right there because they have the family game board room and they just happen to want to have something like a D&D or something like that. Or I've seen like Star Wars fans, right? Super fans have Mandalorian and Star Wars right there. That's all they have. So there's there's plenty of room out there. And I think the industry is a lot larger than what people realize in that in that aspect. So, you know, I think that that's what I would tell people, because I know, of course, if you look on Facebook, you look on Pinside, you will see right off the bat, like a lot of people are all about like, where's the code? Where's this? Where's that? And we see that a lot. Sometimes it has some merit. Sometimes it doesn't. Right. It's you know, it just it really depends. People have different different perspectives. They have different wants, different needs when they're playing a game. This right here, it scratches the itch of progression. It scratches the itch of exploring, right? It scratches the itch of knowing that your game, if you wrap your brain around this, your game isn't necessarily a three ball game. Your adventure could be a 12 ball game, a 15 ball game, a 30 ball game. However long it takes you, you keep using the pin save with your IC. You just keep logging in over and over again. You're going to get there eventually. and so if that helps people enjoy the game more than you know i'm all for it so be it it doesn't it doesn't have to be the super balanced game it could have that story progression that's perfectly fine i completely agree and so what i i had to look it up because um i um what'd you have to look up joel but i looked i had to look up what was the last turn i and i was my memory is correct the last turn game jared and i streamed was beatles and beatles and dnd could not be more different. Beatles is a, it's a modern pin, but it's, it's super fast. And it's the modes like Jared and I were not the best players, but we've seen every single aspect of that game except for the final wizard mode, which is not, but it's like, we saw it all in a two hour stream. And you, I mean, it's very easy to see everything in that game. Um, but yeah, that game kept, had that one more game feeling because it's just like, it was so fast. It's easy to understand. It's fun. And to get to the, not the main wizard mode, but the second one where all you have to do is complete five modes or play five modes, just play five. It was just right there. It was just right there. I just want to keep coming back. So that's one of those where we're seeing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, but it's fine. It was fine. It was fun. Well, this is the opposite. Jerry and I have streamed it twice for two hours each. And we're, we, we barely see everything in the game. We're, we're barely seeing it. And that's not repeating anything. That's just, okay, we did that mode. Oh, but three balls over. We hop back in. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. And it's 0.85 code. Like it's not anywhere near complete. The only thing you're going to experience over potentially experience over and over again is like I'm in one of my characters. I'm in the final dungeon. So this is the dungeon in Dragon Spear. And so I beat everything else that's in the game. But I have to get through that dungeon. And once I get through that dungeon, then I get to the final wizard mode. so the problem is that dungeon is like five stages and as of right now i've already beat it once this is the second time i've worked through it um for me to beat all five of those stages in a three ball game is a challenge it's a challenge because it's a hard mode and there's and it's very unique each stage um and i could even break that down each stage is so different um but if i can do that if i can do that in a three ball game great then i'll get to final wizard but if not if i die if I drain. When I hit start again, I can start that dungeon over again. So sure, I'm repeating that dungeon over and over again. Or Jared on stream, he had one mode that he kept playing over and over again because he was trying to beat that one mode. But it's just so different than a lot of other games where it's to get back into the thing you want to do, you have to grind through the beginning progression. You have to re-qualify. You have to do this. You have to do that. And that's where the pin save really comes in handy. Because obviously, if you're just starting from the beginning, it's almost like you're going through the same roadmap over and over and over again to get to where you're wanting to be. And granted, that's the classic thing about video games, right? You try to get through it, you die, you find your end, you go back to the beginning, you try to do it again. That's the basic thing. But that being said, obviously, pinball can be a difficult game for a lot of people, and rightfully so. It takes years and years to get really, really good at it. It really does. And so I understand from that standpoint of having somebody that might have less than six months of gameplay that they're just trying to figure out their flipper skills or just trying to figure out what is going on through all the chaos. I think it is very helpful to be able to have something to where you're already like you get to save your progression through and you get to start a new game. But technically, it might as well just be your fourth ball or fifth ball and you get to keep going through. I think that that's pretty cool because at the same time too let's face facts the people that do the software and the rules for these games they go all out on it obviously and they put they try to put as much as they can that makes sense right and then you have so much at the beginning of the game but then it's like what happens at the mid game or the end game right it's you want people to be able to see that not just like five percent of the player base to see it you want everybody to see as much as possible. So seeing something like this, pretty cool. I am hopeful that Stern implements this at some level for all the pins from here on out, just to give people the option to do that. I think that that would be huge because I've lost track how many times I've tried to introduce pinball to friends, family, just like you say, Joel, friends and family, neighbors, talk to people at shows and they just they have a hard time getting past the first tiers of a mode or the first multiball of a game and they want to experience more but let's face facts real life also happens also these people have families they have jobs they don't have enough time just to sit there and play pinball two to four hours a day and get to the skill level they need to experience that because it's almost like final wizard mode yeah because oh yeah or just or not even that Even like I've talked to so many people, Joel, that haven't even seen a tier two mode on Godzilla. Oh, yeah. Or some that have never been in a battle on Godzilla because that scoop is impossible for them to hit. Yeah. It's wild. Like I've talked to several people like Mandalorian. Right. Yeah. You had Mandalorian for a while. Yep. Correct. OK. It's like how often were you able to get to just a main like mini wizard mode that was associated with like the encounters or missions or the. It's a lot. Yeah. For the average Joe, they're not going to do it. And I think Stern and others have done it too, but to have the challenge modes, to have things built into the game now where before you hit start, you can warp ahead, you can experience things. I was going to say that with Jaws, like the fact that 4th of July multiball is a challenge mode. For some people, they'll never get there. Or the search mission. That is huge. Which is so great that they're putting that in. And that's where I think pin save, honestly, I think pin save is probably the best and potentially the worst thing for D&D. And what I mean by that is I think there are plenty of people, plenty of pinball enthusiasts where they get the game and they have the ability where they will play the heck out of a game until they beat it. And then once they beat it, it's gone. Theoretically, if you bought D&D today, if you're that type of person, you could beat the game in one night. You could. It's going to take like you could see every single thing in the game in one night if you if you allow yourself to use pin save. I've had the game now. It'll be almost a week and a half. I've already beat the game. I've seen everything in the game. Luckily, I really loved it and I want to keep playing more. It draws me back in. I want to keep playing more. I will say there's a way around that, though. OK, there's OK. There's two ways around it. OK, first off, the the first way around it is just patience, because obviously more is going to be put into the game. There's still two other characters coming. more wizard modes, more story. It'll be further pushed out. The second way you could do it, it has the impossible mode on there, which means you can only trap up for one and a half seconds and play. I've tried impossible mode a couple of times. It's hard. It's hard, but on this game, it makes sense. Like Mandalorian, impossible mode is just pure chaos just because of the way the layout is. Just pure chaos. Venom, a little less chaotic. It's hard on turtles. Still chaos. Yeah, turtles, like forget about it. This one, though, it makes sense. The way that the shots are, the way you can use the shield, it all makes sense. And so if you get through the story already and you want a challenge, just play impossible mode for a little while. You will have a good time. Yeah, just do that. You can absolutely do it. It just depends on a new game. Plus, just like you would do on Skyrim or on Elden Ring. Like, that's all you got to do. And I think there's more coming to this game. I think Dwight knows this. And Dwight, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if there was like a speed run mode or something like that, a time trial, something where it's like, OK, you can beat the game. But let's let's see how fast you do. I mean, it's the speed run aspects already built into Venom. So why? Of course, I'm assuming he's going to bring that into D&D. There's plenty here you can do. And I that's I've played. Honestly, I think I've played this game more. I looked at my numbers. So all the games that Zach let me borrow and typically I borrow them anywhere from, you know, one to three, maybe four weeks. I think I have the most plays of any game on Venom and D&D within that time period because of this pin save, because of this leveling up, because of like I can just go down, I can pick up where I was, I can keep chipping away at it. And I'm really having a blast with it. I want to take one second here because I thought about this the other day. This is, tell me how this isn't fun. Okay, so Dragon Spear Dungeon, right? It's five levels. Okay. I haven't played it yet, so please explain it. Let me explain it to you and spoil it for you. Okay. Spoilers coming up, listeners. Well, spoilers. But this is where we talked about this weeks ago about what makes a mode fun. Right. So the first stage is you're battling trolls. Trolls are huge. You can't just hit them. You can't just hit them like you've done in a lot of the other modes when you're battling a thing. So if you're hitting the red shots, you have to lure it into a trap. So there's a yellow shot. So you hit the yellow shot, and then it moves over, and then you have to hit another yellow shot. And then you have to hit the dungeon target. And this is the first mode that aiming at the dungeon target is actually what you want to do. So now all of a sudden you're aiming at a target. So when you say dungeon target, you're meaning the two stand-ups. The two stand-ups. The one by the right ramp, right orbit, and the side loop, the side ramp. you have to hit the right ramp and then it moves over to the right. Then you have to hit the right orbit. And then now you're hitting the right dungeon target that goes between them. If you happen to hit the dungeon target instead of the yellow shot, it hurts them half. So you have to do the whole process again. You have to do that twice. So you do it once to the right and then you do it once to the left. So it's like, that's unique. You can't use your weight or your range weapon. You can't just plow through it. Like, Hey, I'm a level 10 guy. I'm just going to keep bashing this bad guy. No, you have to, you have to follow that path. then you go down a level the next level is skeletons so everything's lit but there's decoys so you can hit a red shot but it may not be a real skeleton it'll say nope decoy so you're having to either trap up and wait and see which ones are going to attack you and then oh i'm about to be attacked by this guy because it's flashing he's real let me hit him so it's like you're aiming at everything but kind of trying to pay attention narratively makes sense makes total sense the So you're surrounded by skeletons, but there's going to be two or three that are going to hit you. And you got to, oh, that one's flashing. That one means that shot's real. Let me prioritize that. Oh, I miss it. I miss it. Oh, boom. I just got hit. That's level two. Then you get to level three. Level three is probably my favorite mode in the game, which is there's a red shot so he can hit you, but you can't hurt him. Apparently it's this flying creature. The only way you can hit it is with your bow. So you can't also just use your bow. So what you have to do is there's a red shot that kind of moves around, which you kind of ignore. But what you have to do is you have to hit a yellow shot. A yellow shot will stop the ball. And then it gives you a chance. You get one shot with your range weapon to hit the red shot. It'll stop the ball or what? It'll stop the ball. Like when you say the ball, what do you mean? Like the actual pinball or something on the LCD screen? The pinball. So the first shot may be like the shortcut shot. So you hit that and then the magnet's going to turn on to stop the ball. Oh, you're saying you actually shoot the shot. Okay. I thought you were meaning to use your bow. No, so the first thing you do is you have to hit a yellow shot, which will hold the ball. And then while the ball is being held, that gives you the opportunity to hold down the action button to shoot the shot, which is cool because this is a very late in the stage dungeon. So you might have gotten some of the treasure or some of the things that increased your skill with the bow Or there a level three mode that if you beat it you get a more powerful bow if you haven done any of that the light goes so fast The range weapon is kind of hard But if you level it up it slow down the light or it may give you you can hit the shot or if you miss it by one shot, it'll actually be like a span of two or a span of three. So if you level up your character this particular stage, I love it. I think it's such a unique way to play. Because if you miss, it releases the ball and then you got to do it again. and you've got to hit the yellow shot. It gives you another shot to hit it with a bow. But the whole time is if you're taking too long or you miss your shots, the creature that you're shooting at is going to hurt you. So you could run out of health and die. That's level three. Oh, so there's still a couple more levels. That's level three. All right, go ahead. Then you get down to level four. Level four, you're battling a guy who's invisible. So now in that mode, you have to hit stand-up targets. There's the dragon stand-up targets on the left. There's the dungeon stand-up upper left. There's dungeon. And if you hit a target, it'll light up the shots in that area. And if they're all white, it means he's not there because he's invisible. So you're trying to hit the targets to find where the shot is that the invisible guy is. Once you find that, then you hit that shot enough to kill him. After you do that, you have a choice. Storyline, there's a choice. There's an event that happens, and you basically choose kind of left or right. And what that choice will eventually impact is which final wizard mode you will do. Oh, you're basically choosing whose side you're on at that point. Well, you pick a, like, do I want to do this, like fight this guy, or do I want to do this, chase after this? And depending on what happens in that final phase, after you get through that final phase, that's what will then start the particular wizard mode. There's going to be three in the game. so this one dungeon and this one event would impact which one of the two you're going to play so then in the fifth wizard mode you do some more stuff which is fun and unique and then if you beat that fifth phase that's what unlocks the final wizard mode to play but like that's me just explaining one dungeon right one dungeon in the game right like that is it's so much fun like and because the art reflects it it makes sense it's thematic you're playing the game in a unique way i i really had to have a lot of fun like i that's the type of stuff that i'm enjoying in dnd and the way the modes feel unique and you know i'm really having a lot of fun with it well and you're touching base too on just kind of like putting a nice bow on top of all this of why you know it might be important to eventually have some type of like dungeon speed run in the game to allow people to be able to play the dungeons just straight from the start button right because it sounds like it's pretty cool but on top of that it shows why the pin save kind of works you know with this situation because once you think about it that type of event in-game event yeah if you don't have the pin save then you're most likely only seeing it like once every few games or if you're really struggling, maybe not ever. Who knows? Because it's deep in the game, right? To qualify that dungeon means, remember, to play the dungeon, the city dungeon, you have to beat all the modes in that city. That dungeon has two modes, but they're level three modes. Are we talking about Dragonspear? Dragonspear. So for me to play that dungeon, it means I would have to beat level one mode, level two mode of one of the colors, then the level one mode, the level two mode of another color. And remember, all those four modes are in different towns. So it'd be beat a mode, move to another town, beat a mode, move to another town, beat a mode, move to another town, beat a mode, move to another town, then move to that town, then beat the two level three modes. And then I'd be in that dungeon. That's a lot. You're telling me I'm supposed to do all that in a three ball game? It's tough. Like, sure, Carl might be able to do it. But to me, like the average player, I would never see that dungeon. And that's where I think that they've put a lot of pressure on Dwight in a way because these in-game modes have to be just as fun as every other mode because pin save is going to allow people to experience them. While I think you know there are games out there where the final wizard mode is super basic and kind of lame because, you know, 2% of all owners are ever going to see it. So it's awesome. That's what I'm really liking about the game. But because of this, they've made it really hard for themselves. I mean, there's bugs. There's been bugs that you've seen that I've seen. It's .85. There's plenty here. But I'm enjoying this side of pinball. I'm enjoying it a lot. It's just one of those things, and I don't even want to pretend that – I don't know about you, Joel. I have no idea how to code. I have no clue. I can barely remember the password to my email. You know, it's just one of those things that I imagine doing all that stuff. It's awfully hard to do. It's a lot of work, a lot of hours, a lot of refining, a lot of if you miss like one letter, one comma, one whatever. I'm sure it just throws the whole thing off. You know, the reality is that when you're dealing with modern games and you're dealing with so much to where you have like LCD assets, you might have movie assets, you might have show assets, you might have art assets. and you have all these end game events, you have to make sure things aren't colliding together, right? I mean, that in itself is tough when you have certain RGB lights out there and something might take priority over something else. Like I can't imagine. It just makes my head spin. So it's kind of one of those things that I'm not saying that everybody should just say, oh, just go with it and not expect a well-polished product. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is to realize that the people behind these projects, no matter what company they're with, whether it's Stern, Spooky, JJP, you name it, the people behind these games are definitely working their tail ends off because everybody at the end of the day, I would have to assume that they want a polished product or at least as much polish as they can get behind it. So I think just as long as, you know, close to the start button, you feel like there's enough to do in the game. And the unique thing about D&D, because it has a pin save they kind of have to go beyond that now because it's yeah yeah they have to go beyond the first five ten minutes of the game and that's really tough to do yeah that's insanely tough to do so if they can get that figured out kudos to them i mean you're you're obviously speaking highly of this dungeon that you play i haven't got a chance to play it yet but you'll enjoy it sounds fun you'll enjoy it it's but it's just that's what i like i like modes that are fun. I like modes that make you play the game in a different way. Challenge you with a unique... You could theoretically beat the whole game without ever using your range weapon. But now all of a sudden they throw in a mode where you have to. That's the type of stuff that I just find really enjoyable and unique. That's why I like... I've already worked my way all the way through the game. I've almost beat it a second time. But it's because each mode is so different and the fact that you're not forced to do that mode over and over and over again. You got to stop enjoying pinball so much, Joel. It's fun. We're supposed to be angry about prices and all that. We're supposed to be angry at everything. Where's the magic? Well, maybe that's the next. We're in a weird spot right now. And what I mean is, you know, D&D was the rumor. And then it obviously came out and there was a big question mark of like, how's this going to be? I've been nothing but happy with what I've experienced in D&D. But then also, we have other games that people feel are unfinished, some other Stern games, or I know X-Men's getting a lot of hate with the code and kind of where that's at. So there's some people that are like, hey, I've bought the last few games, and I feel like somebody's dropping the ball or it's not enough. We're in a weird spot. And then on top of that, we've got two potential behemoths right around the corner, rumored J.J.P. Harry Potter, and then Elwynn's next game. Elwin is whatever. He's seven for seven. I don't know. I mean, he's done. He doesn't miss. So Elwin's next game, right around the corner, there's a chance that we're going to have some really big, good, fun pinball very soon coming our way. So I know some people are holding on. They're holding on to money or waiting. What do I want to do? It's a cool spot to be in, in a way. I'm excited for what's happening. And it's totally understandable. Well, like we we definitely we we kind of take the piss out of the whole pricing thing and all that. But honestly, like obviously I work in the pinball industry. I work for a company has to sell these games, of course. Like we want people to feel like they're getting value out of the game, getting utility out of the game. It's just it's two different mindsets. Right. You have a mindset of somebody that's buying the game because it's a game. They're going to play it. They're not going to worry about the money. Like that's honestly what my mindset has always been before I start working in pinball. That's the way it's always been. And I've always enjoyed it. It's always been fine. I've never had any expectations ever of anything retaining value. And I've bought LEs and not one time have I sold an LE for more than what I bought it for or for anywhere like even the same. I just haven't. But I do get the ones that that's a priority for them. I get it. Like the priority is money over utility of actually playing the game. There is a group out there that's like that. I totally get that. They're going to have their opinion on their opinion on how the games are. And, you know, there's always a group out there that will scrutinize every single pen, no matter what, whether they bought the game or not. They will always scrutinize it. And I will always say, like, everybody has every right. Have any opinion you want, you know, right or wrong, whether people disagree, don't disagree. You have every right to voice what you feel, how you feel, whether it's about money, about code, whether you love it, whether you hate it, whether you agree, whether you disagree. And that's what's great about this industry. You hear different opinions and everything. Some might seem wrong. Some might seem right. You know, it just it is what it is. But I will say I do get it, though, the ones that have bought certain games and they feel like there's not enough in there. Like I get the wait and see mentality that some people have. You know, it's fine. And then others, they just they want to play the game ASAP. I know a lot of people that will buy a game up front. They'll play it with the intent of selling it within the first three months, knowing that they're going to buy it again a year later when the code's more fleshed out. There is a group. Yeah, I know multiple people that do that. And that's interesting. Yeah. And that's fine. Like, it's just, you know, it's one of those things. If you know what's baked into the cake with pinball, that you're going to get a game that's like a live service game that's always going to keep evolving. You know, if you understand that, then you got to decide, like, what's your entry point for that? Is it at the very beginning? Code out a box and then you just enjoy the ride along the way? Or is it just wait a little while and find a new in box game eventually or use game eventually and then go from there? Like, that's the beauty of the industry. You can choose to do anything you want to do with it. A hundred percent. I know I've been spoiled in a way because, you know, I get to borrow games from Zach and and sometimes it's it's bad in a way because perfect examples bond. You know, when I when Bond was in this house, the code was really bad. It just was non-existent. So my overall experience with Bond wasn't the greatest. It wasn't the greatest thing. And yet here now the game's in a fantastic spot. It's in a fantastic spot that I'd love to play. So when people always ask me, you know, where do you rank? I had it the other day. Where do you rank D&D now? amongst games you'd want to own. And I always tell people, like, I know when it leaves. When it's gone and it's been out of my house and I don't get to play it every day, you know, what are the games that I miss? What are the games that I, you know, if I have the opportunity to play them again? Because, honestly, there's been games that once I've played it a month, I'm good. I'm good. I've experienced everything I want in that game, while there are other ones where it's like, I miss that game. I want that game back. That game would fit in my collection so well. It's so damn hard to judge games early on, though, because you're always judging them based off potential. Yeah, you always are. And it's a lot easier when it's at 1.0. Right. And it's kind of one of those things, too. If you're judging the game off potential. Well, your judgment's only going to go as far as what level you're at in terms of your gameplay, your experience, how many games you played. What what is in your database for your understanding of rules, layout or your fun level? Right. Like how much have you played that, you know, that you know that you like that you don't like? That's the only way you can judge it because obviously somebody like I can tell you straight up when I first got into pinball, my likes are way different than what it is today. The things I prioritize are way different than it is today. And, you know, until you get out there and you do that, it's kind of weird, Joel. It's like you and I, we shoot the shit all the time. We talk all the time, but you only learn so much by talking. At some point, you have to go play these machines. Yeah. And you got to put in the time and you got to decide what you really like and what you really value. And that shapes really like how you feel. Right. Because it's just too easy. It's too easy to listen to us knuckleheads or any other knucklehead out there and say, oh, well, they said this. So I got to think that way. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You play the game. You make the decision for yourself. What do you like? Like, it's just our opinion. It's not like set in stone, like something, something that I love, Joel, you might hate. And we talked about before something you love. I might be like, oh, I don't know. You know, it's just that's the way it is. I totally get it. It's a great thing. Obviously, if Tom was here, he would say what Tom like. Same thing. It's it's I think that's the best for anybody listening to this podcast. Hopefully, you know, you you as an individual are playing enough pinball to start to find what you like. And if you can find a creator, whether it's somebody else in podcast, a streamer, somebody that makes YouTube videos, and if you feel like all of a sudden you're lining up with the games that they like and you like, then, yeah, that's, you know, cling on to that. And maybe that's a person that you can trust because it's like clearly what they're into is stuff that I'm into. But that doesn't make any one of us right or wrong. It's just personal preference. And I know the games I like are different than my brother, which are different than Travis, which are different than Tom or Carl or Zach Mini or whoever. And that's what's great. That's what's great about pinball. But I am running out of time, so I do need to get off. What I was going to say, though, is this was hard for me. I tried to be nice. I was going to be nice. I want you to know I did edit myself. There were a few comments that I was going to make. One of them I didn't make it. One of them I was going to make, though, was you said we hold out on games based on potential. The comment I would have made if I would have made it would have been, you know, I think Monica was, you know, dating you based on the potential. I didn't make it. I didn't make the comment. But if I would have then, that's what I would have gone down that route. We could have dug into that about, you know. Hey, it's true. I was a first-round draft pick, and they were just waiting. Just waiting. Yeah, that participation trophy husband that you are. Isn't that what you say? But I didn't make it. I didn't make it. Trophy husband, not participation. I didn't make it. I didn't make it. So let's let's wrap it up here. I will go ahead and plug Fox Cities Pinball for Tom. And then I know he has some tournaments coming up. So check out everything that he does on Twitch. Side note, Twippies are this Saturday. We're recording this on a Friday. What I have learned is is Fox Fox City's made top four when it came to videographer and streamer. And I know that's awesome. So I'm speaking for Tom here. I'm putting words in his mouth. but thank you for everybody that supports Fox cities and everything that Tom does. Cause I know he works very hard and he does a lot for on the tournament side. And then I'll go ahead and plug myself as well. I do the flipping out YouTube channel. I also learned that flipping out made top four for video and streamers. So once again, anybody that, that voted on us thank you. Thank you. Cause I know Jared and I have a great time with that and doing that. And then unfortunately triple drain did not make top four of podcasts, but you know what? That's fine. Triple Drain didn't make it, and my content didn't make it. Everybody out there, you are dead to me. Everybody out there. I'll pick your time, and I thank you for the support. I only do content for your guys to support. Well, plug it harder. All you plug is Triple Drain. You feel free to plug, Travis. Feel free to plug. No, everybody's dead to me now. I told them that. All you guys. Anybody's driving, anybody that's jogging right now, if you're listening to this while playing. Thank you. Thank you. You're dead to me until the next podcast. Perfect. But no, overall, I mean, we have a lot of fun with this podcast. 60 episodes in. No plan to stop anytime soon. Hopefully we'll have Tom on the next one. And yeah. You got anything else, Travis? Yeah. You guys can find me right here at this non-nominated podcast of Triple Drain. And then you guys can find me on that. Maybe we're fifth. You can find me on that Podunk channel, the pinball company over on YouTube. They have like the shittiest content ever. Can't get one vote, but that's fine. I'm not a hater at all. I'm not hurt. I'm not hurt at all. Forget it. I'll just keep wearing my pink shirts and just be your little dancing monkey on those spooky pictures for you. Maybe get some pants. I didn't say it. Maybe get some pants. I didn't say it. I didn't say it. It's all good. I appreciate you guys. It's only Joel that's dead. Nobody else. Okay. So, Travis, you're going to get your it's a very unique experience. So don't mess this up. But, Travis, you get the last words. I just said it all, Joel. Everybody just hit back 30 seconds on your podcatcher and you'll hear everything I had to say.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 6eb27965-79f0-448e-bf51-8ee9f2a75697*