# Episode 10 - Bug from Spooky Pinball / MASSIVE release week! **Source:** Nudgecast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2025-04-23 **Duration:** 85m 26s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** http://nudgepinball.com --- ## Analysis Episode 10 of NudgeCast features Ian Jacoby and Shane Told discussing a massive release week in pinball, including King Kong (Stern/Elwin), Dune (Barrels of Fun), and Evil Dead (Spooky Pinball). The hosts praise King Kong's innovative design, Dune's artistic execution, and celebrate Spooky Pinball's commercial success with Evil Dead selling out. Guest Corwin "Bug" Emery from Spooky discusses Evil Dead's overwhelmingly positive reception and Spooky's competitive position as other manufacturers launch simultaneously. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] King Kong has four flippers and represents a return to multi-flipper design from Keith Elwin — _Ian and Shane discussing King Kong's playfield design during game analysis_ - [HIGH] Evil Dead has sold out as of the episode recording — _Ian introduces Bug as creator of 'Evil Dead, is both a critical and commercial success as it has already sold out as of this recording' and Bug confirms throughout the conversation_ - [HIGH] King Kong Pro includes all major shots from the Premium version — _Shane and Ian discussing Pro vs Premium differences: 'like you have all the shots of the Premium in the Pro. That's awesome.'_ - [HIGH] Dune features a day/night cycle mechanic driven by spinner hits that affects available modes — _Ian describing Dune gameplay: 'when you hit a spinner... it actually moves the sun. Like there's a sun in the game... you can make it go at nighttime where you can do certain like specific Paul Atreides kind of like destiny missions'_ - [HIGH] Evil Dead has not faced significant negative feedback since launch — _Bug states: 'I have to really fight to find negative feedback on the game uh in general. Besides your hatred of the launch button.'_ - [MEDIUM] Keith Elwin is positioned as the greatest pinball player of all time in the conversation — _Ian references 'the greatest pinball player of all time' when discussing Keith's performance on King Kong stream where he didn't dominate scoring_ - [MEDIUM] Spooky has confidence in multiple upcoming games following Evil Dead — _Bug: 'I am more than confident in what we have coming to follow Evil Dead. And I can finally kind of say stuff like that because Evil Dead sold out.'_ - [HIGH] Mad Pinball is offering free shipping on new Stern games and exclusive NudgeCast t-shirts for game purchases — _Sponsor segment: 'if it's a Stern game, you're getting the free shipping' and 'you're going to get a free, exclusive NudgeCast T-shirt'_ ### Notable Quotes > "We Are Pinball living in a very good time for pinball. We have the best pinball player of all time making the best games of all time. Like he's in his prime. Like this rules." > — **Ian Jacoby**, ~11:00 > _Emotional reflection on the creative quality of contemporary pinball, using Keith Elwin's work as exemplar of industry health_ > "The innovation is still there... people are still pushing the limits and finding new ways to make these games even more fun." > — **Shane Told**, ~12:30 > _Reinforces the theme that modern pinball remains mechanically and creatively dynamic despite format constraints_ > "They could be doing any number of things for more money, mate. Papa Duke across the board. Uh, so like they do this because they do love it." > — **Ian Jacoby**, ~15:20 > _Emphasizes designer passion as driving force behind game quality, contrasting with commercial pressures_ > "It's eerie over here how positive it's been. I mean, just in any pinball launch I've ever seen, I've never seen one go so positively." > — **Corwin (Bug) Emery**, ~31:00 > _Bug acknowledges Evil Dead's unprecedented positive reception in the context of all pinball launches he's witnessed_ > "We just get to sit here and watch all these companies launch games on top of each other and duke it out. And for once we're not in the thick of it." > — **Corwin (Bug) Emery**, ~35:30 > _Reflects Spooky's strategic advantage of launching ahead of the competitive cluster, reducing marketing pressure_ > "I feel like that's something very important to all of us being involved in as many processes of what goes on at Spooky as possible." > — **Corwin (Bug) Emery**, ~28:00 > _Bug articulates Spooky's operational philosophy of cross-functional involvement as competitive advantage_ > "I don't think that's ever been done before. What a cool little idea to have. I don't think that's ever been done before." > — **Ian Jacoby**, ~10:15 > _Ian highlights the King Kong 'punch glass' replay feature as novel innovation in pinball design_ > "This for me is like, that's done correctly. Completely theme-integrated. Johnny Pinball Crapman is an artist." > — **Ian Jacoby**, ~17:00 > _Praises Dune's apron art as exemplar of thematic integration and artist craftsmanship in modern pinball design_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Ian Jacoby | person | Editor-in-Chief and Publisher of Nudge Magazine, co-host of NudgeCast, passionate game analyst and industry observer | | Shane Told | person | Co-host of NudgeCast, singer of band Silverstein, co-host of Lead Singer Syndrome Podcast, touring musician providing alternate perspective on pinball culture | | Corwin (Bug) Emery | person | Creative Director, Game Designer, and CEO of Spooky Pinball; host of Bug's Stream and Scream on Twitch; designer of Evil Dead pinball | | Keith Elwin | person | Renowned pinball game designer at Stern; creator of King Kong; characterized as greatest pinball player of all time by hosts | | Jack Danger | person | Employee at Stern Pinball involved in streaming and technical aspects; mentioned as contact of Bug's | | Johnny Pinball Crapman | person | Pinball playfield artist credited with Dune apron art design featuring Arabic/Sanskrit-inspired sandworm mural | | David Van Es | person | Designer/innovator at Barrels of Fun credited with Dune game design and mechanical innovations like pain bar mode | | Phil Grimaldi | person | Pinball professional involved with Dune; described by Ian as grounded, sweet, and admirable figure in industry | | Rick Nagel | person | Pinball player and programmer at Stern; participated in King Kong launch stream, strong player in competitive scene | | Jeff | person | Owner of Mad Pinball distributor; sponsor contact for NudgeCast; known for excellent customer service and fast shipping | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; released King Kong designed by Keith Elwin this week; employer of Jack Danger and Rick Nagel | | Spooky Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer led by Bug; just released Evil Dead which sold out; described as having best launch reception ever | | Barrels of Fun | company | Pinball manufacturer that released Dune this week; known for innovative mechanical design and artistic craftsmanship | | Mad Pinball | company | Pinball distributor and retailer (madpinball.com); official sponsor of NudgeCast; offers games, parts, and accessories with customer service reputation | | Nudge Magazine | organization | Pinball lifestyle print magazine founded by Ian Jacoby; hosts NudgeCast podcast | | King Kong | game | Stern pinball machine designed by Keith Elwin; released this week with four flippers, innovative rule set, and strong reception from hosts | | Dune | game | Barrels of Fun pinball machine released this week; features day/night cycle mechanic, sandworm toy, pain bar mode, and thematic artistic integration | | Evil Dead | game | Spooky Pinball machine that sold out; received overwhelmingly positive critical and commercial reception; considered potential game of year candidate | | Jaws | game | Keith Elwin-designed Stern game; referenced as comparison for code quality at launch and Premium vs Pro design decisions | | Silverstein | organization | Band featuring Shane Told as lead singer; provides context for Shane's public profile and podcast involvement | | Lead Singer Syndrome Podcast | organization | Podcast co-hosted by Shane Told in addition to NudgeCast responsibilities | | Cobra Man | organization | Musical group that created 'Cool Nice' intro music for NudgeCast; produced 'No Days Off' rap video with NudgeCast team | | Bug's Stream and Scream | organization | Twitch streaming show hosted by Bug Emery featuring pinball content | | TPF | event | Pinball event (Texas Pinball Festival implied) where Evil Dead generated significant buzz; venue where Bug and Luke from Spooky sold merchandise | ### Topics - **Primary:** King Kong game design and innovation, Dune game features and artistic execution, Evil Dead commercial success and critical reception, Keith Elwin's design methodology and rule set complexity, Contemporary pinball innovation and creative health of industry, Spooky Pinball's operational structure and competitive positioning - **Secondary:** Pro vs Premium game design philosophy and accessibility, Pinball artist contribution (Johnny Pinball Crapman, playfield art), Code quality and rule completion at game launch ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.88) — Overwhelmingly enthusiastic about contemporary game quality, designer passion, and industry creativity. Hosts express emotional investment in pinball's creative renaissance. Bug radiates confidence and gratitude about Evil Dead's reception. Only minor critical notes are aesthetic preferences (King Kong art scheme, Jaws Pro preference) rather than functional concerns. Sentiment is celebratory throughout. ### Signals - **[product_launch]** King Kong (Stern), Dune (Barrels of Fun), and Evil Dead (Spooky) all released in same week; hosts describe as 'MASSIVE release week' (confidence: high) — Episode title 'MASSIVE release week!'; discussion of multiple launches; Bug notes relief at not being in the competitive cluster himself - **[sentiment_shift]** Evil Dead received unprecedented positive reception with minimal negative feedback; contrasts with previous Spooky releases described as 'up and down' (confidence: high) — Bug: 'I have to really fight to find negative feedback'; Ian: 'This one feels like an unmitigated success'; Bug: 'any pinball launch I've ever seen, I've never seen one go so positively' - **[design_innovation]** King Kong features punch-glass replay feature (punches glass when replay earned) described as never been done before; Dune features pain bar mechanic requiring one-handed play (confidence: high) — Ian: 'I don't think that's ever been done before. What a cool little idea'; discussion of Dune's pain bar as 'pinball olympics' innovation - **[design_innovation]** Dune implements day/night cycle where spinner hits move sun and change available modes/lighting dynamically, affecting strategic playfield choices (confidence: high) — Ian detailed explanation: 'when you hit a spinner... it actually moves the sun... sometimes you're going to want to hit spinner, sometimes you're going to want to avoid the spinner' - **[product_launch]** Evil Dead sold out as of episode recording, representing commercial success milestone (confidence: high) — Episode intro references 'already sold out as of this recording'; Bug: 'Evil Dead sold out... that feels great too' - **[code_update]** King Kong code quality assessed as complete/polished at launch; hosts compare favorably to Jaws launch; rule set described as 'perfectly integrated' (confidence: high) — Ian: 'the code is there... they were showing a fully functioning, cool, weird rule set that is perfectly integrated'; comparison to Jaws showing King Kong 'might be further along' - **[business_signal]** Spooky's Evil Dead launch positions company ahead of competitive cluster; Bug expresses relief at not being in midst of simultaneous releases (confidence: high) — Bug: 'I can't express the feeling of relief of sitting here and watching an Elwin game come out and not be worried about anything... for once we're not in the thick of it' - **[industry_signal]** Hosts emphasize that contemporary pinball designers (Elwin, Van Es, Grimaldi) are driven by creative passion rather than financial motivation (confidence: medium) — Ian: 'They could be doing any number of things for more money... they do this because they do love it... it comes from a place of joy' - **[product_strategy]** King Kong Pro includes all major shots from Premium, maintaining shooter accessibility while Premium offers additional features; reflects Keith Elwin design philosophy (confidence: high) — Ian and Shane discussion of Pro vs Premium: 'all the shots of the Premium in the Pro... like you don't feel like you're missing out on one damn thing with this Pro' - **[community_signal]** Johnny Pinball Crapman recognized for integrating Arabic/Sanskrit-inspired sandworm mural into Dune's apron art; hosts praise thematic integration of traditionally overlooked playfield area (confidence: high) — Ian: 'Johnny Pinball Crapman is an artist'; detailed praise of apron art as 'simple, beautiful... looks like no other pinball machine'; describes as elevated from typical use - **[personnel_signal]** Bug describes Spooky's operational model of cross-functional involvement (design, manufacturing, customer service, merchanding, streaming) as competitive advantage (confidence: high) — Bug: 'something very important to all of us being involved in as many processes... giving us a huge edge on the industry'; anecdote about selling merch at booth despite being CEO/designer - **[sentiment_shift]** Dune theme initially met with skepticism and low enthusiasm before reveal; upon seeing game, community sentiment shifted positive (confidence: high) — Ian: 'rumors were all over the place... seemed like no one was very excited about it, theme-wise. But then... everyone actually sees it... people are starting to come around' --- ## Transcript Need a pinball machine? Another pinball machine? Maybe some fat accessories like a topper or a shooter rod? Yes, you do. Hit up Jeff over at Mad Pinball for the best products and service, and use our promo code NudgeCast, and get a free exclusive t-shirt when you buy any game. And you also get free shipping on any new in-box stern. So many great games are out right now. Go pick one up. Hit up Jeff at MadPinball.com, and don't forget to tell them we sent you. Hey, everybody. You're listening to NudgeCast, the official podcast of Nudge Magazine. That intro music you're listening to right now is the song Cool Nice by Cobra Man. You might recognize them from our end of the year rap video, No Days Off. As always, I'm Ian Jacoby, aka Doc Monday, the editor-in-chief and publisher of Nudge Magazine. With me is my co-host Shane Told of the band Silverstein and Lead Singer Syndrome Podcast. Shane, how's it going? Hey man, I'm great. I'm back on tour. Things are awesome. I'm also digging this music too i'm getting like a b-52 vibe from the vocals but i got some energy dude i'm getting fucking jacked up right now yeah they're definitely like fun funny band like high energy for sure yeah i dig them as well so hell yeah um you you actually have some news for us i do have news yes we have the first official title sponsor of the nudge cast oh and we'd like to welcome Mad Pinball jumping aboard a fantastic distributor that I have bought plenty of things from. My boy Jeff. Hell yeah. They are the best. They have awesome service. Just chill dudes. The great lengths I've heard them go to for customers too is awesome. So they're number one in my books and it's really exciting to have them on board. So if you need a game, if you need another pinball machine and you know you do, definitely. This year you definitely do. Definitely head over to madpinball.com or email jeff at madpinball.com. Tell him. Make sure. This is important. Tell him that we sent you or use the promo code NudgeCast if you don't want to talk to anybody and just go on the website and buy it. Some people are like that. That's how I would do it. Yeah. You can email someone and wait for a response. Or it's like, Daddy needs a King Kong. And you go on madpinball.com and you order one. and you put in the promo code NudgeCast. And if it's a Stern game, you're getting the free shipping. That is huge. But also, any game you buy, you're going to get a free, exclusive NudgeCast T-shirt directly from us that we will send you. Oh, shit. Yeah, and this is cool because you can't get this anywhere. This is only for the ballers that are buying pinball machines. That's right. I realized we had to make a shirt just a little bit ago. So this is going to be exclusive as hell. I'll tell you right now, these shirts are only going to people who buy pinball machines. So that's kind of cool. Like we talked about it. I'm like really excited about this partnership. Just like a really natural pairing, I think. And I'm excited to be able to like make some fun t-shirts and it'll be it'll be fun. Like, I don't know, like if you're going to buy a game anyway and I feel like you are, why not get free swag? Yeah, get a free. First of all, we're going to talk so much about the games coming out, and now's the time to be picking up a game. So yeah, get a t-shirt from us, and then you know you're going to have awesome service and everything else from Mad Pinball. I'll tell a quick little story. I bought a Foo Fighters topper. Yeah, that's right. I was one of those guys. Shelled out the big bucks. And I bought it from Jeff, of course, and I got it. And I got it really fast. It was awesome. I plugged it in, and guess what? Half the lights didn't work on the topper. I was like, uh, uh, uh. Like, that was a, we need the Price is Right sound. I was going to say, bum, bum, bum. Yeah. Nice. I immediately emailed Jeff. He got back to me. It was a Saturday or Sunday. Hit me back immediately and was like, no problem. I'm on it. Boom. And right away, I was in touch with Stern. Stern tried to troubleshoot the problem. And then when I was like, well, I did that. And Jeff's like, let's send him another one. I got a new topper, sent the old one back. It was great. Hell yeah. I even had two Foo Fighters toppers for a minute. So I was like, I can do something crazy with these. Yeah, no man should have that much power to quote Kanye West. Yeah, like that's two toppers is crazy. But I was stoked on just how fast that problem got dealt with. And, you know, it's just nice to know that someone's got your back. Because let's be honest, this is pinball. Things can and will go wrong. And it's nice to know you have someone in your corner, you know, when you're when you're investing, paying so much money for something like this. No, mad pinball rules. And I mean, that's a really cool story just in terms of because a lot of times, like, that's not ever their fault that those things don't work, you know. So it's like, oh, no, of course, the lengths that they go through to fix that stuff. And yeah, it's that's awesome. I do have one question for you about when you had two Foo Fighters toppers, though. Yes. Did you ever make them kiss? that's so funny to me i did not i did not i wouldn't be listeners if any of y'all actually any two toppers make your toppers kiss i'm gonna um this is not from mad pinball but i'm just gonna throw it out there as like an extra thing um just do it why not black knight and foobot make him kiss let's see it you know anyway well hey and yeah mad pinball you're sick people if you're listening to this go use the code nudge cast get yourself a new pinball machine and i'm just excited like let's talk about this because full disclosure this is saturday morning uh the week like the weekend after all these games got released i'm feeling a bit of fomo because all my buddies went to stern this week for some personal reasons i couldn't make it but i am like ready because kong is here yeah it is and it looks like it fucking rules like dude it's loaded man like it is loaded looks so much fun to shoot the toys are great dude i i don't really have too many negative things to say about this like maybe the artwork isn't for everybody sure you mean color scheme wise or art wise i actually kind of dig the art but maybe the color scheme is mostly and of course you know you can never judge from pictures like i you know most people have not seen this game in in person and you know the people that have seen it in person i haven't really heard them talk about that part of it too much so almost always pinball machines look better in person anyway but i but the game looks so rad to shoot the shots look insanely cool i don't even know what some of the ball paths are doing looking at the game i know it looks so cool it's like you're basically can go back and forth between upper flippers it looks like that is wild to me like there are some really cool yeah ball paths just i mean it's another elwynn banger and it was so cool to watch i don't know if you guys got a chance um they did it live but it's available archived and this was low-key this is one of the best parts about them picking up jack danger is like the level of their streaming capabilities for streaming new games in comparison to any other pinball company is like you know like we watch Keith Elwin his programmers uh i think an engineer maybe but it was like rick nagel and all those guys and they all had obviously been playing this game for forever they're all amazing pinball players they all and the rule set is like there like all the problems that people have it's so funny to me because you know and i'll just say who it is because we always like subtweet this stuff but it's like funny to hear the normal like canada shit of like oh i don't know about the art like what like he'll find anything but he's not saying the thing he always says which is oh the code's not there because guess what y'all the code the code is there like is it completely there no but they were showing a fully functioning cool weird rule set that is perfectly integrated once again into like a perfect keith ellen flow game like a plus for me like well i mean jaws jaws was pretty much there too when it came out like that code was pretty good right away it was close i think this is further along even yeah yeah it might very well be and that's and that's the thing like you know all those guys jump on the game play it well and know the rule set already that's a really good sign that there's been a lot of development in this game that's been happening right they've actually been playing the game which is which is kind of huge exactly like i just think they work in tandem together like that's the crew right like that's right that's the a team and Truly, it felt that way because when you watch that stream, I think Keith comes in. He definitely comes in second and he might come in third, which is crazy. Like, you know, the greatest pinball player of all time. And these other guys are just like hanging right with him. And like the guy who comes in fourth, Rick Nagel, is still a great pinball player. And like just kind of he sees what the scores are on like ball two or ball three. And he just drains his ball and is like, I'm good. Like it was hilarious. but like yeah it's super like i think it's a four flipper game which is cool um we haven't had one of those from ellen in in a minute i think i mean jaws was jaws was four flippers with the upper right the jaws premium is gotcha gotcha gotcha i only play a pro so i don't get that extra flipper up there yeah but you know i don't know if this is a hot take i've had people say this is a hot take but i kind of prefer the jaws pro like the upper play field the like one one and done shot for me up there doesn't really do anything for me and also the shot to the upper play field i find that that kind of yeah we gotta really nail it yeah exactly i'm kind of a fan of the jaws pro and like the shark um that opens i find the ball that gets stuck in there a lot you know i know but No one wants to hear us talk about Jaws Pro right now. No. They want to hear about King Kong. No, and I'm probably going to edit all that out anyway. No, no, don't edit it out. I like it, and you're right. Jaws, I mean, well, I'm just someone who just plays Jaws Pro, so of course I like it more. But I agree with you. And to tie that back into King Kong, though, like, what's awesome about a Keith Elwin game is your pro is still awesome. Like, you don't feel like you're missing out on one damn thing with this pro. Like it has all, and we've heard this, other people have said this, it's not an original thought, but like you have all the shots of the premium in the pro. That's awesome. Yeah, I'm trying to think of what the differences are. I know there's no spider, spidery guy in the pro. Right. But the magnet's still there though? King Kong doesn't move. Okay. And I think, I think it doesn't, I think it doesn't also tip the train car. I think that's a virtual lock now. Right. but other than that dude like that's what i'm saying is like all the shots everything else is there like if i'm buying it this was a game i had no absolutely no interest in buying before i watched the keith ellen stream and then was like i need this game like if we don't get one locally i have to figure out a way to like scrape this money together to buy it because yeah it looks so fun it looks so like a classic just one of these games like i've been playing so much Jurassic Park. This fits right along in there, but I think like the layout just lends itself to so many cool things. And so one of the, when I talked about programming before, one of the things that I really liked is there's sort of a plunger game. Did you watch any of this stream at all? I watched very, very little of it. Okay. So there's this mode that you have where you get unlimited plunges for like 35 seconds. And there's all those sort of targets that are built up uh by soft plunging into like the far left hand side there's just like a bunch of stuff there's this river pathway there's all these things and you can kind of not only is there this game but you can kind of level two different games that you're playing at the same time for like maximum points and i was like this is already coded in there like this sort of just like weird little fun i love that totally you know whatever like that's already in there like geez louise so I love that. One thing that I also thought was super cool, I heard Keith talking on, I think it was Loser Kids, about when there's a replay, King Kong punches the glass. Oh, that's cool. That is such a sick idea. Of course, the obnoxiously loud beep when you get a replay on a stern is fine and all, but that's so rad. What a cool little idea to have that I don't think that's ever been done before. Well, and the only way you can kind of do these things right is we take for granted how much of the really, really hard stuff they get right right off the bat. All the engineering stuff, all the flow stuff is like never once in my mind was I like this is going to be a janky, hard to like teach myself Keith Elwin game. Right. Because those really don't exist because he does that so well. And when you do the simple things really well like that, I mean, they're simple, but they're hard to do when you. But when you do that, then you can start kind of thinking about all the fun stuff, all the things that we love about Elwynn games, all the weird little like you talking about punching the glass or this fun little extra game. It's like these guys have the time and the creativity and they love what they do that. Like, it's just really fun. I got like kind of I told you, like, I've been kind of going through some stuff and I got almost emotional watching that stream because I was like, God damn, we are living in a very good time for pinball. We have the best pinball player of all time making the best games of all time. Like he's in his prime. Like this rules. And like no matter what else happens in pinball with like giant market forces, everyone wants to talk about the economy and all that stuff for sure. But I'm saying just now as like a creative time in pinball, I'm like so I feel so lucky, you know. So that was and that's cool to think that after you see a game release. So anyway, someone clip that, send it to George Gomez, so he'll send me some swag. Well, you know, it's true, though. It's like you think, okay, pinball's been the same. You know, we've talked about this, the same parameters, you know, give or take. It's the same size. There's a certain number of flippers. And then you see that the innovation is still there. That does warm my little heart, too, that people are still pushing the limits and finding new ways to make these games even more fun. That is so incredible. It's not just that they innovate, it's how they innovate. Because I feel like it comes from a place of joy, right? They love pinball, truly. And I'm telling you guys, this is not like shill talk. It's not like whatever. It's like I do know these guys on a personal level. And they could be doing any number of things for more money. Pretty much across the board. uh so like they do this because they do love it and that's what i just this game is kind of i mean this is actually a good bridge to the other game that came out this week uh if we can talk about that a little bit um june by barrels of fun was also revealed this week and again i think you know no matter kind of how what you feel about the rollout people have all kinds the feelings about it i think that game specifically looks again like it's doing some really fun stuff it's funny because you know the rumors were all over the place but i think most people kind of by the end were pretty sure it was going to be dune and it seemed like no one was very excited about it theme wise but then if the second the game comes out and everyone actually sees it yeah i feel like people are starting to come around on the theme yeah and myself too and like i saw the I never actually saw the old Dune movie and I saw the part one and I liked it but like again you know like could I tell you what happened in the movie really like or name any characters I kind of forgot you know I've kind of forgotten all about that but as a game this looks absolutely sick it looks like they just took an already you know great vibe and great you know platform with Labyrinth and just stepped it up you know another notch and the the sandworm mech is so sick and man i just know this game is gonna slay the sandworm mech is cool i the thing that made me most excited was well two things that like stuck out to me one's kind of funny i actually texted johnny crap uh when i was watching the featurette on it because i was like dude did you do the apron art because that's so cool that yeah Did you notice what that is? So there's this like mural in the movie of a sandworm and it looks like this ancient kind of almost Arabic, like Sanskrit type, you know, vibe to it. It's just really beautiful. Like it feels ancient, you know, and then Johnny Crap like did do this, but like kind of transcribed a version of it onto the apron art. And it's so simple and it's like a place where usually you just see like, you know, the rule card or like, you know, someone someone's shitty like business card. It was just like really cool to look at that and see this like simple, beautiful kind of ancient. It looks like no other pinball machine I've ever seen, you know, like in terms of that, that part of it. It is. It's such a great idea. You know, I remember when Uncanny X-Men came out and they had the Insider connected was like the eye of the Sentinel. Yeah. And that was cool. Like this is even taking it a step further, you know, with making the apron part of the art package, because that is a lot of times an afterthought. And integrating it into the theme. Like if you walked up in Dune World and played pinball, like it would look weird. Probably not like this game, but that would look like this game. Like, you know what I mean? Like it looks like it could be from that world sort of. And the other thing that I was really excited about was the day night cycle that they do. Oh, yeah. And wow. So when you hit a spinner, not only is it giving you points, you're working towards a multiplier the way, you know, it normally does in pinball. But it actually moves the sun like there's a sun in the game. and the more you rip the spinner the like you can make it go at nighttime where you can do certain like just specific paul atreides kind of like destiny missions and then during the day you're fighting the harkonnens like in like the sand crawlers and stuff so like you get control over that and i just think like it totally changes the play field all the like ancillary lighting in it like yeah like sometimes you're going to want to hit spinner sometimes you're going to want to avoid the spinner you know yeah oh and just like but i'm saying like it changes the vibe of the game like oh sure when you look at it at night time it looks like there was people have felt all kinds of way on the play field art i get why maybe you wouldn't but to me okay so good because it's simple it has to be simple because it has to work in like very different lighting circumstances But also, it's subtle. It's not just simple. There are the inserts that are being buried in sand. There are plastics that are just sand dripping off like necks or scoops and things like that to make it look like the game is actually being buried under sand which is awesome I don really remember another especially modern art package kind of I love the world under glass idea and for me this more than a game like Alice Everyone was busting a nut over the weird little mushrooms in that game. This for me is like, that's done correctly. Completely theme integrated. Jonathan Bergeron is an artist. It looks beautiful. they spent money to do it right like so this that game looks like a like a work of art to me yeah i mean i'm excited i i hope i hope they're they get them out quick because i really want to play this thing i know i do too that's what that was the one thing that bummed me out when they're like we're getting two out to locations and i'm like i don't think those are going to be anywhere near me so yeah well maybe they'll have one at ace goji that's that seems like they get every game before everybody in la you know but yeah we we also get that from lit in minneapolis but i don't think first two usually they're like like we get like sterns like stern le's before anyone else which is cool but i'm hoping someone locally buys this because i need to play it and i don't have eleven thousand dollars but i need to play that game like asap so absolutely and i love the idea of um i forget what the mode's called but where you have to hold the action button oh pain box yeah pain bar exactly and you have to you know play with one hand that is again that is just innovation like we like you were saying we're living in a time where this kind of innovation is still happening is still possible and that is like such a cool thing and it's very it's very pinball olympics i like that it is kind of pinball olympics yeah it's like we need someone actually standing next to you with the gum jabbar there to like stab you in the neck with the poison if you if you fuck it up but uh yeah no super cool and yeah David Van Es again like another innovator uh in this in this space and i think yeah i'm not gonna be like they knocked it out of the park because i haven't played it it does look like it flows cool bow and karen's is on rules so you know and um shoot i forget uh with phil grinaldi um who also just seems like the nicest man i was thinking about this because like a lot of these guys in pinball are either my age or they're a little older than me but they seem so grounded and sweet i'm like how can i get there in the next five years guys how can i do it i i want to be like phil grimaldi when i grow up and i feel like he's my age so anyway anyway yeah yeah this has been a great week i know we do want to get into because there's an elephant in the room here right like we talked about the two releases this week but there had been a release and it's been a success and it is a big ip done well and we got the guy behind it all we had the man behind i mean it might still be game of the year uh you know there's a lot there's gonna be a lot of competition but like this was the game everybody was talking about a tpf this was a game that sold out very quickly and like bug talks about it's Like, things could not be going better for Spooky Pinball right now and their release in Evil Dead. Yeah, so coming up next, guys, we have Corwin (Bug) Emery from Spooky Pinball. So stick around. Ding, ding, ding. Can you hear the evil dead? Ding, ding. A cold wind blows as the angels cry. The river will descend and the dead will rise. All right. Just let me take a drink of my poop water and we'll be good to go here. Poop water, okay. That reminds me of Austin Powers 3. Is Ian drinking? Yeah, exactly. A bit nutty. Are you drinking prune juice again? No, it's... Anyway, let's just get to it. All right. Our next guest is the creative director, the game designer, and I think CEO of Spooky Pinball, whose latest game, The Evil Dead, is both a critical and commercial success, as it has already sold out as of this recording. He's also the host of Bug's Stream and Scream on Twitch. He's younger, hotter, and probably better at pinball than you. Please welcome to the show, Corwin (Bug) Emery. Hey, Bug. Hey, Bug. Wow. What's up, guys? That was a lot of titles. Thank you. I appreciate it. You're a busy dude. You got a lot of shit going on. Yeah. You know, I always hate when people go on stuff and they talk about how busy they are. I usually find that to be like, oh, I bet they're like, I always feel like most people who go on there and do that or they don't really mean it or they're like not as half as busy as they say. So we usually try not to lean too much into like, oh, we're so busy. But yeah, things are crazy over here. But we're having the best time ever, even though how crazy everything's been. Like, dude, we're having the time of our lives over here right now. can't even imagine well to be honest i think we probably missed some titles because as shane talked about when he saw y'all at tpf is like you're also the person at the booth you're also the person you know like when people call in they get your sister like it's it's truly is sort of uh you know as big of an imprint as y'all have on pinball right now it still is really a pretty small company right yeah it's a lot of us take on so many different roles here and you know not to talk bad about any of the other companies or anything i i do feel like that's something that to me has always been missing when i see the other companies and i'm sure their systems work for them but i feel like there's something very important to all of us being involved in as many processes of what goes on at spooky as possible and just having the full understanding of absolutely everything head to toe and being involved in all of it i think that gives us a huge edge on the industry and yeah we got to work pretty hard to do that but it's it's absolutely worth it it's really funny yeah when i ran into you at tpf bug and you know you know you're like talking to me you're like just selling merch to people like i don't think they understand that you're like the man behind all this like like he's just he's just the merch guy you know yeah i thought that was really funny and then and then i you know asked you know you and luke like oh you know did you guys like drive down this time they're like actually we flew down it's just really funny it's like you're almost embarrassed yeah yeah i felt embarrassed to tell people that i was like oh man if we don't make this as difficult as possible for ourselves people are gonna think we lost our edge and that we're that we're not as like cool anymore like oh they don't even drive down here anymore they don't stay awake for days these babies well i mean well worth it right because i think you've seen it right you have to have seen it we talk about it all the time on the show but evil dead feels like such a big win for you guys um it must be really like gratifying uh especially like the last few releases like there's been a lot of like great things about them too but they've been like up and down this one feels like an unmitigated success from my perspective is that kind of how it does that is does it feel that way from your perspective oh my gosh it's it's eerie over here how positive it's been i mean just in any pinball launch i've ever seen i've never seen one go so positively i mean i have to really fight to find negative feedback on the game uh in general besides your hatred of the launch button but uh but like we we're so overwhelmed with it to the point where i'm terrified of not sounding authentic and genuine when I talk about it, but the praise has been so good that we don't even know how to react at this point. We're so thankful for it. It's all downhill from here, Bug. I hate to say it. I know. I keep telling the guys, I'm like, this is probably the best it's ever going to be. This is probably as good as we will ever feel because, man, this feels amazing. So we're just enjoying the heck out of it while we're here. I do think we're going to have a really solid handful of years coming up for us. I am more than confident in what we have coming to follow Evil Dead. And I can finally kind of say stuff like that because Evil Dead sold out. So I can safely tease things now and that feels great too. We're dealing in the midst of, as we record this, there are two game releases that have happened this week, one today and one yesterday. But I actually saw someone in the chat for one of like a reaction live stream and they're like, I'm waiting for the next spooky. And I was like, their last one just came out. That's insane. I know. It's funny. I mean, you must be glad that you're ahead of all this shit happening right now. That must be a big relief. I can't express the feeling of relief of sitting here and watching an Elwynn game come out and not be worried about anything. It doesn't matter. We're fine. We're totally covered. We just get to sit here and watch all these companies launch games on top of each other and duke it out. and for once we're not in the thick of it. And like I said, we just got ahead of it. Our game sold out. I really mean it. Spooky Pinball is having the time of its life right now. We are very happy campers over here. And like I said, we're confident in what's to come. This is going to keep going for us. And you're friends with all the guys at Stern. I know that. Like I see you talk to Jack and like everyone over there. So, I mean, it's got to be kind of fun to enjoy this as a fan, right? Like you get to kind of see, like you like a Keith Elwin game just like we do, you know? So, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's I think that part of it's probably kind of fun, maybe. No, I have a ton of respect for a lot of different people who work at all these different companies. And, you know, of course, we are a competitor with those people. So when we're put up against them head to head, you know, you kind of have to. Of course, I'm rooting for us. Yeah. And it's yeah, it's relieving right now to just be able to sit here and kind of show my support for some people that I admire and look up to. and I don't have to worry about a thing. We just actually get to be authentic and genuine. Like I think Kong looks freaking cool and you know, like I'm happy for those people. Did you see that Kong has a shooter button? It does. Are you serious? No. No, it does not. It does not have a button. That shut me up for a second. I was about to go off and maybe this is a good, let's just get into it because I think we have so many questions for you. I think I'm really excited to kind of like learned some of your background because i know some of it but um like we've talked before but i think just in general people are kind of interested to hear like what music and all that stuff but the reason that we're even having this call right now uh is because of something i open my big mouth as per usual and uh so i love evil dead you know that but i just have to say this and this is not as specific to this game although i did notice in this game is i just hate shooter buttons. It seems like it was a trend that started in the 90s. Obviously, like Brian Eddy Games, a lot of those, and I love Brian Eddy Games, a lot of those have shooter buttons. And for me, maybe we'll just both do an opening statement. Shane, does that sound good? Oh, okay, yes. Well, I'm the referee here. So let's keep it clean, boys. Ding, ding, ding. Maybe we should do that, okay? Opening statements. Then we'll have a rebuttal, and then we'll have closing statements and then maybe i get to decide the winner of the debate oh i like that's right because what's great about this too is that ian and i did not prepare not at all so all all of this shooting off the hip opening statements really and here's the thing is even though i'm the mediator here i may chime in with some points so okay i got a quarter right here i'm gonna flip this all right um who wants to call it in the air it's all you i'll do tails never fails is what i used to say tails ian it is it is tails never fails it is tails there we go would you like to go first or second yeah i'll go first okay so i think my biggest issue with shooter buttons is the lack of control that you get in comparison to a shooter rod i think we there are many issues that we can talk about when it comes to shooter buttons i think they're an overly complicated mechanism. I don't know much about pinball repair, but I would say it seems to me that it would be much harder to repair the mechanism for a launcher like this rather than a simple rod. But again, what do I know? But as a player, I think the biggest benefit of the rod is the control that you get over the short plunge, over even a long plunge. I feel like sometimes when an auto launcher won't get a ball around i can still usually figure out a way to kind of finagle it with a rod so uh to me what a button is lacking is mainly control is it fun to hit it i guess it doesn't look that cool right it kind of looks like you're slapping the machine on the bud or something uh in comparison in comparison in comparison to a plunger rod which is basically the international symbol for pinball, right? Like, people know about the plunger when they don't even know about the flippers. And so for those reasons, I would say that my preference will be forever the plunger rod. I think it's the better option. Okay. Okay. That's the traditional plunger, rod, shooter, rod. Ian, that was your opening statement. All right. Before we get into rebuttals and arguments, we're going to get to Bug right now and hear his opening statements on why the button is his preferred method. Bug, the floor is yours. So obviously coming from the standpoint of manufacturing and reliability, game reliability is one of the most important things to people with pinball machines, of course. And with the shooter rod, the issue is with your shooter rod, you have to have the fork auto launcher mechanism. Now, the fork auto launcher mechanism tends to be less reliable than the standard plunger auto launcher mechanism that we have switched over to in games like Evil Dead. For example, a lot of people had issues with their auto launcher, and I hate to point out other companies' issues. I don't like doing that. But X-Men, everybody complained about the auto launcher thing in X-Men. You have to use the fork auto launcher if you have a shooter route. There's no way around it. We personally also, I'll admit, Scooby-Doo, we had some auto launcher issues because we were using the fork mechanism. And all the Scoobies I make now, we use the single plunger mechanism, and it's flawless. We haven't had an issue with auto launches since then. That's my standpoint of reliability. If I put on my Gary Stern mask here and I start saying cost. So if you have a shooter rod, you still have to also have an auto launcher coil. No matter what, you have to pay to have that coil there. So now I have the same cost in kicking the ball out in the first place, and I have to pay for the shooter rod to go there as well. When I could invest that money somewhere cooler in the game, I can add an extra feature to a mechanism. I can add maybe an extra feature to some sculpts, extra plastics, extra lighting. There's a million things I could put that money towards that I think will have a much better, longer-lasting effect to the perception of how cool that game looks. Third off, with shooter rods, the plate that you mount to the front of the cabinet. So we do butter cabinets at Spooky. And these shooter rod plates, with how they get installed, they can get installed kind of crooked at times. and if it is installed crooked and you have to straighten it out you're going to leave lines and these creases on the butter cabinet from it being secured into there so it damages the front of a butter cabinet we have to swap that out now that's hurting production that's pretty annoying to deal with so i don't want to deal with it for that either uh my next reason can i give a reasons why this is opening statement you you can you can do whatever you want this is my favorite reason for why I don't like shooter odds. In a tournament, there is nothing more frustrating than watching some, I'm going to swear, dumbass on a creature from the Black Lagoon. And this person is going to get seventh place at best, and you know it. And they are trying to hit a skill shot, and they're just soft plunging over and over and over. And you're just like, oh my god, this isn't going to be the game changer for you. Most recently, I'd say Jaws. Jaws has that affliction for sure. And Wick, too, actually. He's already backing me up, but he knows who the winner is. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just… And then on top of that, I think I could probably close up my opening statement with that as far as reliability, cost, frustrations of watching people use them in tournaments. And for me personally, I like to get the ball in play. I feel like most people, they use the shooter rod and they try to do the skill shot when they're playing at home. the first handful of times, but eventually they just move on and they walk up and they launch the ball anyway. So I like to just get the ball and move. I have two points. I'd say a point for each, I'd say, that I'd like to bring up, and I'd like to hear your arguments on it. The first is, with a rod, you have no consistency from game to game, right? So, like, let's say you're walking up to a machine and you have not played it before and you're on ball one. you don't know what kind of plunger you're going to get. I've had Adams families, for example, where it's like you have to, if you don't get it just right, it's going to go way too far or way too short. And if it goes way too short, you're missing the skill shot for sure. So that's one point I'd say against it. Do you want me to respond to that? Not yet. And then I'm going to say the other one I'd like to hear from both of you. But the second one, and I think this is a really big point, is just gameplay-wise, I think a lot of people like that, though. I think they like the skill of where can you plunge it. You can plunge it to different spots because generally with a shooter button, it's going to the same place. In Fishtails, it's going all the way around, right? For example, right? So I think that's a really important part of where the shooter button maybe loses people that really don't care about the mechanics of the machine when they just walk up to it? Gentlemen? Okay. Well, I'll respond. Well, first I'll just respond to my perceived cheap shot of the short plunger loser at tournaments. And I will just say that plungers don't short plunge. People with plungers short plunge, right? so i will say that um but to respond to this second uh kind of idea yes i do think that plunge different plungers behave differently that inconsistency is true of everything with a pinball machine you know flippers aren't always going to be dialed in the same way you know even the geometry of the machine can change depending on sort of where you're putting things in so i I think that is actually part of the charm. And it is actually something that you lose with the consistency of a shooter button. So that is my response. Okay. Over to you, Bob. I had one rebuttal to one of Ian's statements earlier about if the auto launcher fails, you can get the ball out with the shooter rod, which is a good point. Yes, you can. also that auto launcher is failing because the shooter rod is there in the first place and you're using the poor designed mechanism in the first place so that that is my one rebuttal to something like that i would also like to add uh that sometimes thematically an auto launcher makes more sense in evil dead it is a double barrel gun that you are shooting out of in the shooter lane pulling a shooter rod for that would make just no sense at all to me that would make that would make no sense. I want to walk up and feel like I'm shooting the gun. I want to shoot both balls out at the same time. And you also have, I think something more lasting is the innovative, cool buttons that have been done in the past like the lever in Frankenstein the gun on Demolition Man or Terminator the fishing reel on Fishtails Like walking up and pulling that lever up or down and the ball gets shot out there and there's electricity going off in Frankenstein. That is, to me, more exciting and rewarding than various soft plunges and things I can do with the shooter rod. And I would also like to add, I do also think the shooter rods are iconic to pinball, by the way. I do think. I know a lot of people think of shooter rods quickly when they think of pinball. I do understand that point. Just a quick sidebar. Was there ever a thought of trying to do that Indiana Jones Demolition Man style gun for War Evil Dead? Because that would have made a lot of sense. Yeah, we ran out of money. Oh, that's okay. Yeah. We ran out of money. It seems like it would have to be a really intense sculpt because it would have to hold up, right? Like, I just think about, like, the Shadow and all those ones. Those things are like hunks of metal. Like, they're, yeah, pretty intense. Well, I mean, you know, Stern Pinball, you know, famously sells, you know, shooter rods for like $200 plus now, you know, light up shooter rod or whatever. And that's something that you guys, you know, can't add to your games, right? Because there's no way to accessorize that. Is that something you could do? Could you add a mod or like an official accessory of a gun for Evil Dead? Would that be something that could be possible? We technically could. I just already know that there's some people out there who are working on it, and I don't want to like – Or the market will figure it out. In pinball, 100%. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Well, gentlemen, I think we've kind of gotten a good chunk of this debate finished. Does anyone have anything they'd like to add, or should we go to your final closing statements? And we're going to limit this to about 30 seconds, I think. 30 seconds to a minute each. Yeah, I'm ready to go into my closing statement. Okay. Okay. All right. Ian, take it away. So in conclusion, I think that pinball is really defined by the plunger rod in a lot of ways. It is a rich history going back to the bagatelle that stretches forward into infinity. As long as pinball exists, so shall the plunger rod exist. It matters not what my opponent says in regards to the manufacturing of it or anything like that, because people will always gravitate towards the plunger rod. So that's my final statement. All right. um okay strong arguments from mr ian jacobi aka doc monday on to you corwin Corwin (Bug) Emery would like to hear your final statements i like to get the show on the road let's get up to the game let's shoot that ball let's fire that ball immediately in some unique way i want to have the options to be able to do double barrel shotgun auto launches i want to have the options to pull the frankenstein lever and electrify that ball into play and although shooter rods may be iconic to pinball and have a long history to it i believe in a world where both can exist together wow okay those are damn this this is like way better than i thought and it's and if i'm the man that has to make a decision of course everyone listening at home has their own opinions but man i i gotta say this is I think this is a tie. Wow. After hearing both of these arguments, you both bring up really, really good points. You know what? Really good points. I would go right along with that because you brought up some manufacturing issues that, I mean, obviously I'm a dumbass, and I don't really understand how plunger rods work at all anyway, especially when you need auto plungers. So I feel like I learned something today as well. You know what's funny? I have a TNA. The only thing that's broken on that game, auto plunger. Told you. There you go. And that is – how many spooky games even have a traditional plunger? We did them on and off again up through Halloween. Halloween was the last game we did it on, and I won't go back. I really won't. Nice. Okay, you heard it here. Don't ever go back. I'm pretty sure it's like 50-50. Yeah. But, well, let's not say never, but I strongly have, I have very strong opinions against ever doing it. Also, the good news is, is this is all a matter of just what your personal preferences are. Because, like, it really doesn't matter. If you like shooter odds more, that's totally fine. If you like launch more, that's totally fine. Do you lay awake at night thinking of different ways to do skill shots with a shooter button? Like, is this something you are constantly thinking about? If you guys do have a short plunge in Evil Dead, there is that option still. Yeah, there's a short plunge option in Evil Dead. In Looney Tunes, there's a couple options of how we can do different skill shots, even though the ball is technically going to go to the same spot each time. I'll admit Luke Peters is a much better skill shot rules designer than I am. Like I said, I just want to get the ball in play and get onto the modes. I feel like that's what people remember from games. Like you remember Showtime Multiball from Adam's Family. I promise you don't remember the soft plunge skill shot from Adam's Family. That's not what anybody thinks of when they think of Adam's Family. You know, I am much more interested in providing people the big moments and the modes and the call outs and the things that have a lasting impact of which I don't feel any shooter rod has ever given me. Yeah. Or a launch button for that matter, other than, you know, Frankenstein, like I said. But that's where I'm at with that. I just feel like everything else in pinball is cooler. Well, just to put a button on this, Bug, thanks so much for agreeing to do it. And I think in the spirit of the debate, I think we both came in and kind of shot from the hip, and we actually ended up saying some good stuff. So, yeah. I think we all learned something here today, guys. It feels like the end of a Captain Planet episode or something. Okay, let's get to this. This is the most serious thing I've ever done on a podcast. I really was trying to pull into my, like, inherit the wind bag of tricks there to be like a young Atticus Finch when I was giving my closing statements. I think I only really got about a quarter of the way there. Your closing statement had me worried. That was good. That was probably your best part was your closing statement. You know what? Here's the thing. I just, you guys both made such good points. I kind of like, I kind of was a little bit trending towards Bug's side. I get it. and then I was like, ah, I don't know though it's like, it's the iconic thing that really leveled it out. I was like, if they were all buttons, I think that would, maybe that would be okay. Damn, I don't even know. I'm even lost. I think it would move on. It might move on. It might be the future. Here's my argument against my closing statement is that sort of like, you know when they say whenever someone mentions Hitler in an argument, you've kind of lost. I think the moment that you say bagatelle in a pinball argument you've lost like you should not ever bring up ever so uh yeah anyway okay let's let's get on to the interview because uh bug definitely editing that okay no don't i didn't say anything bad uh so anyway what you dropped the h-bomb dude well yeah i said oh wait can we not say that will we get demonetized or something i don't know i don't know i tend to Oh, that's fine. I think we're all good. All right. Let's get to the real interview. Let's not get bug into any trouble. I have I have a question just right off the bat, because when I went to visit you guys, you were making jokes. I think it was Luke maybe was turning 30. And you're all like, ha ha ha, old man. Is it weird to be this young and like totally in charge? um yeah it i don't notice it most the time it's it's a very that factor doesn't come up too often there's just occasional instances where it really shows um you know for i always kind of admittedly tried to like hide my age for the most part okay how old are you do you mind telling us how old you are uh i'll be 23 this friday oh my god isn't that yeah dude and he's already like that is wild We're playing good games. It's crazy. We try. No, it's... We just have a team that works really, really hard. And we all work together on absolutely everything. I've been around it my whole life. It's also the distinct advantage I have. I wasn't 30 or 40 when I got into pinball. And I wasn't that old when I decided to start working in it. It's been one of the main driving forces of my life for at least 12 years because that's how long the company's been around. That's when dad started it. But even before that, I was dragging games home and restoring them and fixing them and selling them and flipping them and all this and that. My first game I ever worked on was a dad of East Guns and Roses, and I think I was probably 11 or so, 11 or 12. So, you know, only a year ago. Well, and here's the thing. Pinball used to be a young man's game anyway. Like Brian Eddy was 26 when The Shadow came out. So like, you know, it's not that crazy of a thing. It's crazy for us now because you're right. I think it takes a little while these days to get your foot in the door since it's such a niche industry. But you have a very unique perspective on it like through growing up with that. And I don't know. So I think there's a documentary. Is it called Something Goes Bump in the Night or what is? Yeah, Things That Go Bump in the Night. Yeah, and it's about the very kind of beginnings of spooky pinball. And if y'all haven't seen it, I think it's available online. You can find it. It's great. But can you talk about that era of your life just a little bit? Like it must be kind of weird to think about or that there is a documentary about it even. Yeah, it was a terrifying time for us. It was a lot of unknowns. because when we, when AMH first came out, I think it was for, and my memory is getting worse about some of this stuff just because it was quite a while ago and I was pretty young. But when AMH came out, I want to say it was for like the first six or seven months, we didn't sell more than, I don't know, 10, 15 games. It wasn't many. It definitely wasn't enough to keep us going. And the money that we started the company on was non-existent. I mean, we were not a wealthy family by any means. My dad had no reason to be going and starting a pinball company. It was the most irresponsible thing he could have done. I still remember where I was standing in the living room when he told me on the night and was like, I think I'm going to actually do it. I think I'm going to quit my job and I think I'm going to start my own company. And I remember standing in the living room and looking at him being like, I don't think that's a good idea. As a child? Yeah, I mean, I was... I don't know much about it. I was a fetus, dude. you're an idiot. I was like, dude, I don't think you should do that. And that's what everybody told him at the time too. And fortunately enough, he was stubborn enough or stupid enough or something to just continue on and do it. And, uh, yeah, for the first, you know, six something months, it wasn't like he was exactly proven anybody wrong. And it was, it wasn't looking good. Like it was, it was really scary times. And, uh, it was a lot of uncertainty of what we were going to be doing or if he was going to have to find a new job or if it was going to go under we were going to get made fun of like all these things and then uh at some point along the process i remember spooky luke even telling me about like yeah your dad left to go to texas and i had just finished building the last sold america's most haunted and he left and i was like well i hope he sells some games while he's gone because i'm out of like work to do now and that weekend they sold the remaining uh like 130 or 140 amhs in a weekend at the texas pinball festival and so he came back and luke was like well all right i guess i have some games to build and and the rest is history it just kept going on from there and the documentary kind of ended at that point of like uh will they won't they make it with rob zombie yeah i'm pretty sure that's where it ended i haven't seen the documentary in like eight plus years probably it's been a long time it's crazy to think that's where it ends though is like because so much is yeah it ends on a very will day won't day and then yeah flash flash forward to 2025 and we're we're feeling like borat king of the castle it's just it's crazy though like your dad you know was so confident in your ability and to a lesser extent luke i say that because he's older you know well not not a lesser extent But like he was he was proving because I mean, I mean, Luke had grown up with the company, really. Right. I mean, yeah, for sure. But what I mean, but what I mean is like because of his age. But I know I know obviously it's your dad and his son, but for him to really go, OK, I trust in these kids essentially with my livelihood, like my my life savings. You know, that says a lot, I think, about you and a lot about your father and your family. And that's such a beautiful story and such a beautiful thing. Thank you. And a lot of that – obviously it wasn't like he – like a light switch flicked and he was like, oh, yeah, these guys got it. They can take over. I mean it took a lot of different things. The biggest factor was Halloween selling out in the first day. That was really eye-opening for him to say, okay, I think these guys maybe have got this under control. And we – at that time, we knew what licenses we had coming with like Scooby-Doo. And, uh, and the followups to that. And so he was feeling very confident by then. Like, okay, I think these guys definitely have this under control. And I'd also like to add in there too. Um, you know, Luke is a bit older than me as well. He's about in his early thirties now. And, uh, there's no way I would be in the position I'm at without him and his direct help and guidance on everything thus far. it's a very uh it's a good relationship we we bounce off each other and we balance each other out and it it works because of that and many other people here as well too uh just luke and i are the ones that put our faces everywhere in the public for everyone to see right what's so dope about your guys relationship is that you're very like everyone at spooky is comfortable with each other Like it's a really when I was visiting, it's it's a very like friends who work together environment. Right. Like you guys know each other. You're all from the same city. You grew up together for the most part. Like, you know, even the people kind of like working the line and stuff like that, which is just totally unique, I think, in this industry. and it's really fun to like you like i said you'll kind of like you and luke especially will like kind of rag on each other like tease each other um can you can you talk about you have no idea how bad it is no i mean i i have a i have some idea because i i have some relationships like that too but uh can you just talk about your relationship with spooky because he's married to your sister right um is is is that true oh they're not married no but uh yeah he is They are together forever. Um, so you guys, were you guys like best friends growing up or like, what was, how did that relationship start? Uh, when I was a teenager, I started to really hang out with Luke a lot more. I thought he was really cool. He was like, you know, we would hang out, he would teach me like hunting stuff and whatnot. And, and, uh, it just, that was very influential to me at the time. And then specifically once I got like into the workforce. I don't know. Our relationship just kind of took off from there. We just kept getting more and more involved with each other because we both had very long-term goals with the company. The biggest thing that makes Luke and I get along so well and work together so well is that we have the same goals. It doesn't really matter what our personality types are at all. We both want the same goals and longevity and growth for the company. So that's what brings us. And of course, We just also happen to get along really well, but that's the main thing. And that's honestly kind of across the board at Spooky is almost all of us just kind of have the same goals, which makes us all work together and get through anything that comes up. It makes it possible for us to get there. But like, yeah, I mean this weekend, me, my girlfriend, Luke, and Morgan, we were at their house. We hung out outside. We smoked a cigar and we went inside and we had some pizza. and we watched Coyote Ugly, had a bad movie night, or more like good movie night, and just hung out. Could Coyote Ugly be the next spooky theme? We don't know. I mean, could be. It should be. That's funny because I saw you talking about that, or maybe it was Luke talking about that on the Spooky Pinball Discord, which is a great Discord channel for people to check out, by the way. And I think, I don't know if it was you or Luke, but someone's like, it's a movie we're watching. and it's from the year 2000. And I was thinking about it. I was like, what could it be? And I was like, what movies do I definitely know it was? And I'm like, because that's kind of my prime for movies. I was like 19, and I was seeing everything in the theaters. And I was like, maybe it's like Castaway or something. And then Luke said Coyote Ugly, and I thought he was kidding. And I was like, no, actually Coyote Ugly. um that girl piper parabo she's a baby yeah she kind of like went away after that man for sure yeah i feel like yeah kind of like a one day a little bit if you say that about okay we're gonna get off coyote ugly here guys uh but i do or get on okay very good but we uh that's like how do i even get this back on track no i i i really want to know because i think it's one thing that you guys have been known for really, I mean, since the beginning, but especially since Halloween, I've always said this is like, no matter how you feel about Halloween, like how it plays, like it looks beautiful. Like the artwork is amazing. And I think that's carried over through all your releases. You know, Scooby-Doo has some amazing art packages. Always the play field art is really good. But most recently you brought in Christopher Franchi, who has done work for Stern. He's done a lot of work across the industry. He's also kind of a firebrand a little bit. But can you just talk about bringing – what was the idea about bringing him in? And I think it's borne fruit already. Like people love the artwork for Evil Dead. But, yeah, just talk about your relationship with Chris. Chris is just one of my best friends at this point. And, you know, in a similar way of how Luke and I get along and how the whole Spooky Crew interacts with each other, Chris just immediately clicked with that. We just got along so well right away. And we quickly started working on multiple projects together. And I was really enjoying it. And obviously, everything looked great. And we have a history of our games looking really damn good. And I wanted to keep that going. And he's a surefire way to make sure your games are going to look good. Absolutely. But I was also seeing that everyone in the industry wanted him to work on their projects too. And I was getting worried like, well, I can't have my next two games come out and they're FranchiArt, but also four to five more FranchiArt packages come out that year or across those two years because then my product, my brand is going to look exactly the same as everybody else's. Right. And so I was pretty worried. I was like, I really like working with this guy. He's a really good friend. I want to keep him around. How can I make this happen? So we got married. You put a ring on it, that's good. You made an honest move. I put a ring on it. I guess without getting too into the business and contracts of it though, you've got to have him on some kind of retainer. He doing all your stuff but then you guys aren putting out as many games as let say Stern Pinball is right how does that kind of work it i guess you just have to pay him the big bucks yeah i sold my soul to get him no it's uh no i mean it just worked out in a sense of how many games he wanted to be doing a year the themes that we had coming um you know how do i how do i not get in trouble. Maybe some other companies are super annoying to work for. Might throw it out there. We got along. It was the right amount of work. It was the right type. It was the right themes for him. It just kind of all fell into place and really made sense. And I think it's going to continue to make sense. Yeah, definitely. And I think Christopher is a guy who likes the spotlight and you guys give him the spotlight. And I think that's a really like what that is a detriment at some companies and it is a benefit at some companies. Right. And so what actually maybe was a negative for some people, for you guys is kind of a positive, you know, he's really out there in the pinball community. He talks a lot. Uh, he likes to have his brand out there. He's like putting it out at conventions and stuff. And that's rad. Cause you guys are very grassroots in the same way with your you know quote-unquote marketing or whatever so um so yeah so talking about themes and you know you said i don't expect you to tell us any upcoming themes and i don't even want you to um but obviously like you know you and luke seem to be really on the same page about the things that you guys like you know um especially some of the classic horror movies you've done like evil dead texas chainsaw massacre etc is that a point of contention with you guys like how do you figure out what the themes are? Does a lot of it come down to what licensing is available? How does that even work? Because that's always something that I think no one really understands, exactly how you go about procuring a license, and then do you buy things you don't make? How does that all work? There's probably nothing him and I talk about more than themes and the game release schedules of the future and whatnot and where we're going to fit what and what we should do to follow that. Because it's really tough because you're trying to predict what a market is going to be four years from now and what people are going to want four years from now. And you never know what might be the thing that people are sick and tired of by then. And you don't want to get stuck in a position like that. So we try to always keep it fresh. We don't want to ever corner ourselves into we just do this and that's it. We want to do all sorts of things because we like all sorts of things. I mean, we are branded as like, you know, the horror niche guys, but like we, we love a lot of things outside of that. Like our tastes go way beyond just horror movies and metal music. You know, we, we both want, and we know we pay a lot of attention to what people are asking for too. Uh, like a lot, we really dig through all the different forums, what people are commenting. We get there, we, we text people, call people, get their opinions, everything like that. um you know we have quite a few licenses locked up at this don't even i don't even know right now it's uh we have quite a few licenses locked up at this point and they're they're all sorts of different flavors we've got horror we've got not horror we've got family we've got we've got everything it's everybody should get something they want from spooky pinball over the course of the next five years i would say and that's the biggest thing we want to make sure we're giving people what they want. It's that's the most important thing to us. I am lucky enough that almost every single thing we work on is something I'm very passionate about too. You know, it's like some people have memed on us a little bit about that. Like, oh, they just walk over to their movie shelf and that's what they pick out to do. And it's like, not necessarily, but like, yeah, I, most everything I have worked on is something I'm fortunately very passionate about, but like, there's going to be a day where there's like less of those to do, you know, like there's only so many dream themes you can have that you actually get to work on yeah well i think it's it's got to be a combination of both right i mean you guys are obviously doing good market research but the passion that you have behind these project shows right like i think scooby is a great example of that is just like it feels like scooby-doo when you're playing that game it's like uh like just getting out to play like kind of episodic things and and all that is like it doesn't feel like a rote exercise and just like people want this theme like we're gonna give it to them is like you guys get it you know um and that's just the strength of uh right your team too it's crazy that scooby-doo never was never made before that i that was like one theme i'm like that is so crazy that you guys got that and made that yeah that was like surprising to me i was like how was that game never you know what i mean that was that was the first like pinch me moment of the company was when we were working on scooby-doo and we were like is this really what we're doing right now? Haven't they figured out that we're just kind of some dudes? People are going to let us work on this dream theme for them and handle it and bring it to the market. That's insane. And there's a lot of pinch me moments, obviously. I don't want to say imposter syndrome totally, but there's just a lot of moments where it's like, wow, we're really working on this right now. This thing that we know the industry has been begging for that we have always thought would be perfect and that we're really into. It's just peculiar how all these things come together. Like I said earlier, everything is going so suspiciously. It's hard to believe. It does seem like that imposter syndrome, though, has led to you guys working really hard, too. Yeah, we're terrified. I know we talked about that right at the top, about how you don't like to talk about how busy you are, but you've got to be the busiest man in Benton, Wisconsin, at least. Busiest people in Benton, Wisconsin, for sure. I will absolutely say that. Yeah. No, I mean, it's our whole life though. I mean, and I think not having that separation also helps keep our head in the game and keep us making the right decisions to where, like this weekend when I did have some free time on Saturday night, I went over to Spooky Luke's and we hung out. Like, I bet you we talked about pinball here and there while we were hanging out. So it's really our whole lives at this point. I mean, of course, we all have things we tend to do a bit in our free time, like Sunday afternoons. I like to work on my house project stuff and whatnot. But for the most part, I mean, this is all day, every day what we're doing. I mean, pinball is always just it's sitting right next to us. It's like a little angel and demon on our shoulder at all times. Ready, ready to talk. Well, I did want to get into some of the stuff that you do like maybe outside of pinball because I think there's a lot about you and Spooky together. But I assume this from Spooky and stuff, but do you trend towards horror movies and sci-fi and stuff? Or what are you watching lately besides Coyote Ugly? I could pull up my Letterboxd. Let me pull up my Letterboxd because I'm on there. I log everything I watch. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, please do. Yeah, bring it up. because I'm interested to hear. Are you into foreign movies? Do you ever watch anime? Yeah, I don't know. I'm just kind of interested. Anime is the one area I've really never stepped towards. I've tried once or twice. It's just really not for me. I don't know. It seems like those guys are having fun over there, but it's just me. So my most recent watch is Coyote Ugly, of course. uh yeah looking through it's it's a lot of horror recently but i like everything you know there's no throw out some titles like what do you what are you watching uh recently i watched pirates of the caribbean again because i'm an idiot and i keep re-watching it uh peewee's big adventure i watched uh the outlaw josie wales i've never seen it before yeah classic blue velvet clint eastwood i'm a big david lynch fan i watched blue velvet i watched smile too nice that was really good that was really good another round that was a cool movie i saw the substance i try to keep up with a lot of the new stuff that's coming out but it's been just kind of tough lately i only watched two movies in march so i'm really lacking right now yeah yeah you are but it sounds like you're making up for it with a big coyote ugly april so yeah growing up i mean does your dad showing you like a bunch of horror movies did he get you into that stuff because like you know you started this so young it's like i don't know is it appropriate for a 13 year old to watch tcm you know so i i gotta yell at him for for the whole upbringing on the movies thing because it was like so good and so bad at the same time you know because believe it or not he was actually very mindful of what he would let me watch like he was actually very restrictive over like that's too grotesque or adult or whatever he was very mindful of that but we just watched so many bad bad horrible movies. Like we just never watched anything that was good. And if we, if we did watch good movies, it was, it was pretty much horror. Like that was it. And so once I moved out, I was like, man, I'm just going to like go to the Oscars and start watching all these movies that are in there. And I found all these great new movies. Turns out they make not horror movies that are awesome. And I started going through and watching all of those, you know, things like, like you know like wolf of wall street coen brothers movies yeah uh tarantino lynch films uh you know all that sort of stuff and um but yeah i mean it definitely ingrained the whole horror thing and it's it's still probably my favorite i don't know i like i like the thrillers now i like like procedural thrillers like prisoners movies like that those are what really get me that is a good excited anymore but for sure what about uh what about i was just gonna say we were gonna say what about music we're both gonna say that both music guys so i think that Yeah, we are both music guys. I know you are too, Bug. Obviously, your success came from Music Pins, right? With Rob Zombie and Alice Cooper. Those are pretty big for you guys. Yeah. Talk to me about your musical upbringing and what you're into. So honestly, it's kind of the same story where my dad raised me on rock and metal music primarily. And of course, when I was in fourth grade, I picked up the drums. and so everything from there was just what what music has the best drums and the answer remains rock and metal it definitely does and uh so i mean everything i grew up on there was i was huge aerosmith was like my first real big love for a band and then it was like acdc and the drums just kind of progressed metallica guns and roses yeah acdc drums pretty boring that guy's been playing the same beat for like 50 years yeah but it was good to learn on it taught me how to play you know so it was all rock and metal like throughout high school and uh i just remember at some point that it started to dawn on me that girls didn't think it was cool if you told them their music sucked and that they should listen to cannibal corpse that was not conducive to talking to girls don't read them the song titles yeah i was like okay maybe i look like an asshole and i should probably start trying to listen to some other stuff here and i remember like being in the shop at like you know 17 and listening to rap music for the first time and like being low-key kind of nervous that people would find out and make fun of me that is so real i dude i had this i had the same experience where you're like listening to hip-hop and you're like my friends are gonna make fun of me for this which is like amazing actually that is a very wisconsin experience yeah and so But since then, nowadays, I don't care what anybody thinks about the music I listen to. I love so many different things. Jimmy Buffett is my favorite band pretty much at this point. Like, typo negative, Jimmy Buffett. I love Chaperone and Sabrina Carpenter. I love Kendrick Lamar. But I also love everything heavy that's coming out. Ice Nine Kills is super great. I just like what I like at this point. I don't believe in saying popular music sucks. and it's lame or anything like that. I think good music is good music. And that's kind of like the end of the story. If it's good, that's all there is to it. It's a great song and I enjoy it. Can you say, could there be a spooky music pin coming out at some point again? Oh yeah, we want to do music pins really bad again. We're definitely looking into that. There's a lot. I could fill the rest of our career with music pins, but I know that's not a wise thing to do. because oh my gosh there's just a limitless amount of bands out there that i think could be great games that fall into the realm of units that we would need to sell to justify doing it but then there's also ones where you're just like i don't know like this is huge but is the pinball demographic gonna buy it that's always the the toughest conversation is figuring out sure i mean it's It just depends on where it lies. It exists, yeah, that sick ABBA pinball machine. Anyway, okay, well, you know what? We've taken up so much of your time already. You've been so generous, Bug. We really appreciate you coming on. Thank you for setting me straight on shooter buttons. Yes, it was a great debate. Thank you both for participating. No, thanks for having me, guys. It was a great time. I really appreciate it. Anything else to tell the people before we let you go, Bug, back to your probably busy work day? The Evil Dead units are limited, but those toppers sure aren't, so keep buying them. Hey, there we go. There we go. Yeah, go get you one of the most disturbing toppers I've ever seen in my life. It really is quite freaky. Best topper ever? And what I think is cool is people – I've seen this, right? People have used it as a bottomer. I don't know if that's what you call it, but I've seen actually where people want to put it under the machines to make it sort of mimic coming out of the basement. That is very dope. Yeah, or more so realistically because they don't have the ceiling height. So we included a kit in there. This is one of those funny stories where somebody online was saying like, hey, I don't have the ceiling clearance to get this in there. can you guys do like an extension kit so we could have this topper off to the side or underneath the game and spooky luke immediately replied and was like yeah absolutely we can do that and then he was messaging our work chat like hey guys uh is this something we can do because we need to include it in every game now amazing and fortunately we could so that'll work down there you go you can that's amazing if you don't have the ceiling space you can even put it on the floor well thanks so much bug and we'll we'll we'll talk to you soon yeah thanks guys all the best with the next release and i'm sure we'll see you around for sure thanks guys appreciate it so there it is with mr Corwin (Bug) Emery the man the absolute man the man behind spooky pinball the new game Evil Dead, his love for shooter rod buttons. He made some good points, I got to say. He did. They were a lot what I thought they were going to be, right? Like I had talked about the manufacturing end of it. I definitely understand that. And I like the idea. This is great marketing on his part, is like he wants to spend that money in other places on a pinball machine. He doesn't want to have to worry about doing both. I will forever be a rod man. call me Dennis because I am a Rodman Ian Rodman I don't love that you're tall I bet you got a lot of rebounds in your basketball career I did and I can box out I got a big old butt so yep that was that was a strength of mine for sure and just throwing passes all the way down the court and then when they bounce off people's hands usually because they're a bad pass me yelling at the person for not catching it that was my other specialty yeah that sounds that sounds about right It was great to have Bug on the show. Absolute legend. And what he's done in his relatively short time on this earth is nothing short of incredible. So the future is so bright we got to wear shades of the spooky pinball. Let me tell you. I love him. I'm excited to see what their next game is even. Me and everyone else, evidently, because I've been talking about it. Other people are already talking about their next game, which is crazy. But, yeah, I think it's pretty cool. And, I mean, I'm always going to have a soft spot for them because they're Wisconsin kids, you know. So it's been fun to watch them grow. And, yeah, like you said, I just think, I mean, another dude just like the Elwynn team, like another guy who's doing it because he loves it, you know. I think him and Spooky Luke are a great team. And it seems like every release for them gets better and better. So it was so cool hearing about their friendship and their, you know, friendship and professional relationship and how they're intertwined and how they're like family at this point. It is it is really, really a beautiful story. So it is. I am always a little suspicious. I was always OK. Actually, I don't know this about you. Oh, I do. You have a sister, right? I do. OK. And I have siblings and I never got along with my siblings. So I was always so suspicious of people who like love their siblings growing up. They're like, oh, we're like best friends. I was like, what the fuck? Like, you're squabbling over the same resources. How are you friends with these people? So that part was a little hard for me to relate to. But, yeah, I mean, I agree. I've gotten to know all of them. They're super cool. And you know who else is building an empire besides those guys? Us. Yes, we are. So we want you guys to go out there, tell your friends if they like pinball. That would be optimal. If they don't, I mean, they might still like this podcast. I don't know. Find out about a lot of good music. There's like some fun times. There's lore that comes up. But yeah, send them to our Spotify. Like it, review it, share it. Hit the button and do all that stuff. That's right. Do all those things. And sign up for our email list, nudgepinball.com. Get on there. So we want you any way we can get you. Absolutely. get on there and if you're gonna buy a pinball machine because well i don't know if you can get an evil dead anymore but i was wondering that too i'm like you you might not even have them i don't think anybody's got them um but if you want a king kong if you want a dune if you're you know if you want a harry potter because now those are coming out we're going to be talking about those probably in the next couple episodes hit up our boy jeff at mad pinball madpinball.com use our promo code nudge cast and then you get a free exclusive t-shirt from us we will send it to you directly so if you do buy the machine hit us up nudge pinball magazine at gmail.com right yep and if you nailed it exactly nailed it dude you're you're in the club and just let jeff know if you want mustard stains on your shirt we can do that if you want it clean we can do that too so So just let them know. Mustard, easy. Ketchup, no. We aren't putting ketchup on our hot dogs. Are you kidding me? Absolutely not. No way. That's not keto-friendly. We're staying lean this summer, bro. We got our beach bods coming. That's right. Mustard stains, optional. I mean, Nudge Cast, it is yellow. This is on brand. I always describe the Nudge yellow as the most delicious mustard you've ever tasted. That was my goal in picking that color. And we're keeping it American. None of this Dijon crap. That's right. All right, buddy. Well, I guess until the next insane pinball release week, or probably just next week, actually. That's right. We'll see everybody on the next NudgeCast. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next week. Bye. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 73551c01-93d7-4763-950f-70464ce8c419*