# Episode 457 - Interview with Edward Trapunski 09-30-19 **Source:** For Amusement Only EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2019-10-04 **Duration:** 57m 12s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://foramusementonly.libsyn.com/episode-457-interview-with-edward-trapunski-09-30-19 --- ## Analysis Edward Tripunsky, author of the 1979 book 'Special When Lit: A Visual and Anecdotal History of Pinball,' discusses his entry into pinball through early wood-rail games, his research journey documenting pinball's social and technological history, interviews with major designers and manufacturers (Gottlieb, Williams, Stern), and reflections on how pinball reflects broader societal trends. He traces pinball's evolution from ancient games through electromagnetic and digital eras, discusses the illegal status of pinball in Canada and New York, and reflects on how the industry has consolidated and become more corporate since the 1970s. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Special When Lit was published in 1979, at the cusp of the transition from electromagnetic to digital pinball games — _Edward Tripunsky, direct statement about his book's publication year and timing_ - [HIGH] Pinball was illegal in Canada and in many places in the U.S., particularly New York City, because they were thought to be gambling machines — _Edward Tripunsky discussing historical legal status of pinball_ - [HIGH] Gottlieb was bought by Columbia Pictures shortly after 1979, which was then acquired by Coca-Cola — _Edward Tripunsky and host discussion of Gottlieb's corporate history_ - [HIGH] Gottlieb ceased operations in 1996 — _Host (Nick Baldrige) states '96, I believe' and Edward Tripunsky confirms_ - [HIGH] Bally was purchased by Williams in the 1980s-1990s, and Williams closed their pinball division around 1999-2000 — _Host and guest discussion of Williams/Bally history_ - [HIGH] Only Stern remains as a Chicago-based pinball manufacturer; other manufacturers are scattered across the United States — _Host states Stern is 'the last surviving Chicago manufacturer'_ - [MEDIUM] The 1950s were an era of great innovation in pinball, driven by immigrant entrepreneurs who founded the major companies — _Edward Tripunsky discussing post-war development of the industry_ - [HIGH] Oriana Curry and her husband were major importers and servicers of pinball machines in Canada, particularly Gottlieb machines — _Edward Tripunsky describing Mrs. Curry as 'the pinball queen of Canada'_ - [HIGH] A TV documentary called 'Special When Lit' was made with no connection to Edward Tripunsky's book and depicts the pinball community unfavorably — _Edward Tripunsky surprised by documentary sharing his book's title_ ### Notable Quotes > "pinball is storytelling and it's interesting stories and there's lots of stories" > — **Edward Tripunsky**, N/A > _Explains his motivation for writing the book and his approach to documenting pinball history_ > "If you look at pinball, it really started at the time of the expo in Chicago in the 1930s, which was a time of economic upheaval, and that's when it started. And through the years, if you follow the history of pinball, it reflects what's going on in society." > — **Edward Tripunsky**, N/A > _Core thesis of his book—pinball as a mirror of societal conditions across eras_ > "It's the flesh of the back glass... full of Easter eggs. The stuff he put into it was incredible." > — **Edward Tripunsky (discussing Dave Christensen)**, N/A > _Describes the artistic detail and hidden content in game artwork, reflecting designer innovation_ > "At about 2 in the morning, my phone started to ring with people saying, how quickly can I come over and buy your machines from you?" > — **Edward Tripunsky**, N/A > _Anecdote illustrating the passion and demand for pinball machines in the community_ > "The industry is given to hyperbole. And I would say, especially in matters of marketing." > — **Edward Tripunsky**, N/A > _Observation about pinball industry marketing practices that continues to the present day_ > "They were innovative people and entrepreneurs and they were always looking to develop and as I said, it's all the technology that was developing at the time." > — **Edward Tripunsky**, N/A > _Explains the driving force behind innovation in the 1950s pinball industry_ > "When you had electromagnetic games, it was the start of how do you use electricity for fun, right? And then when they became digital, how do you use digital techniques for fun?" > — **Edward Tripunsky**, N/A > _Frames pinball history as a progression of technological adoption for entertainment_ > "I play any chance I can get... I even build games and design them and play them on location just everywhere I can." > — **Nick Baldrige (host)**, N/A > _Establishes the host's personal passion for pinball and involvement in the community_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Edward Tripunsky | person | Author of 'Special When Lit' (1979), historian of pinball culture, radio producer, age 71 at time of interview | | Nick Baldrige | person | Host of For Amusement Only EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast, pinball enthusiast, collector, game designer | | Oriana Curry | person | Canadian pinball importer and servicer, called 'pinball queen of Canada,' friend of Edward Tripunsky, deceased | | Harry Williams | person | Founder/key figure of Williams pinball company, retired and living in Palm Springs at time of book research | | Dave Christensen | person | Pinball designer known for detailed back glass artwork with hidden details and innuendos | | Leroy Parker | person | Pinball artist who worked for all three major manufacturers (Gottlieb, Williams, Stern), known for Easter eggs in artwork | | Steve Kordick | person | Pinball designer mentioned by Edward Tripunsky | | Harry Mabs | person | Pinball designer/figure mentioned in Edward Tripunsky's research | | Roger Sharpe | person | Pinball industry figure who produced content and later worked for Williams, authored 'Pinball' book | | Steve Kirk | person | Major collector who later became a designer for Stern, co-author of pinball book | | Bobby Claire Natkins | person | Author of 'All About Pinball' book with Steve Kirk | | Rob Burke | person | Runs the Pinball Expo in Chicago | | Harry Gottlieb | person | Founder of Gottlieb pinball company, immigrant entrepreneur | | Gottlieb | company | Major pinball manufacturer, market leader in 1970s-1980s; bought by Columbia Pictures, which was acquired by Coca-Cola; ceased operations 1996 | | Williams | company | Major pinball manufacturer; purchased Bally, closed pinball division circa 1999-2000, later acquired by Scientific Gaming | | Stern | company | Smallest of the three major manufacturers in 1970s; only surviving Chicago-based pinball manufacturer as of interview date | | Bally | company | Pinball manufacturer; purchased by Williams in 1980s-1990s; brand later owned by Scientific Gaming | | Scientific Gaming | company | Current owner of Bally brand and Williams gaming operations | | Columbia Pictures | company | Acquired Gottlieb shortly after 1979; was itself acquired by Coca-Cola | | Coca-Cola | company | Acquired Columbia Pictures and thus owned Gottlieb pinball company temporarily | | Special When Lit | product | Edward Tripunsky's 1979 book; subtitled 'A Visual and Anecdotal History of Pinball'; also a 2015 documentary (unrelated) | | Queen of Hearts | game | Wood-rail era pinball game owned by Edward Tripunsky; favorite game from his youth | | Star Wars | game | Pinball game based on popular movie, reflective of industry shift to popular culture licensing | | Tommy | game | Pinball game based on popular culture (around 1979), brought interest to pinball hobby | | Chicago World's Fair | event | 1930s Expo in Chicago marking the emergence of pinball as a game form during economic upheaval | ### Topics - **Primary:** Pinball as social and technological history, Legal status and prohibition of pinball in Canada and the U.S., Major pinball manufacturers (Gottlieb, Williams, Stern, Bally) and their histories, Pinball designers and artists (Christensen, Parker, Kordick, Mabs), Transition from electromagnetic to digital pinball - **Secondary:** Bingo pinball and gambling aspects, Pinball collecting and restoration, Arcade culture and venue evolution ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.75) — Edward Tripunsky expresses nostalgia and affection for pinball's history and culture, though some melancholy about lost manufacturers and changed landscape. Host is enthusiastic and appreciative. Some concern about how the industry has become 'more corporate' and less rebellious than the 1970s. ### Signals - **[historical_signal]** Gottlieb ceased operations in 1996; Williams closed pinball division circa 1999-2000; Stern is last surviving Chicago manufacturer (confidence: high) — Confirmed by both Edward Tripunsky and host; clear timeline provided - **[historical_signal]** Gottlieb acquired by Columbia Pictures, then Coca-Cola; Bally acquired by Williams; Scientific Gaming later acquired Williams assets (confidence: high) — Edward Tripunsky provides detailed corporate acquisition history - **[sentiment_shift]** Industry has become 'quite a bit more corporate' since the 1970s, losing the renegade/rebellious spirit of earlier era (confidence: medium) — Host reflects that industry is 'become quite a bit more corporate than in the 70s especially' - **[regulatory_signal]** Pinball was illegal in Canada and many U.S. jurisdictions (especially NYC) due to perceived gambling association (confidence: high) — Edward Tripunsky discusses pinball illegality in Canada and NYC; cites Mayor LaGuardia's public destruction of machines - **[design_philosophy]** Dave Christensen known for detailed back glass artwork ('the flesh') with hidden Easter eggs, sexual innuendos, and references to industry figures (confidence: high) — Edward Tripunsky extensively discusses Christensen's artistic approach and hidden details - **[content_signal]** 2015 TV documentary titled 'Special When Lit' (unrelated to Edward Tripunsky's 1979 book) released with no involvement from author; depicts pinball community unfavorably (confidence: high) — Edward Tripunsky surprised to discover documentary sharing his book's title; states never contacted by filmmakers - **[historical_signal]** 1950s marked era of great innovation driven by immigrant entrepreneurs; transition from electromagnetic (1970s) to digital era (late 1970s onward) (confidence: high) — Edward Tripunsky identifies 1950s as 'era of great innovation' and 1979 as pivotal transition point - **[licensing_signal]** Modern pinball games increasingly based on popular culture (movies, TV shows) rather than original themes; Star Wars and Tommy cited as examples (confidence: medium) — Edward Tripunsky notes modern games 'are all based on popular culture, on movies and other things that are out right now' - **[venue_signal]** Dedicated arcades declining; pinball now found in bars/restaurants rather than standalone 50-game locations; pricing increased from 3 for quarter to $1-2 per game (confidence: high) — Both speakers confirm arcades now integrated into bars/restaurants; Edward notes pricing change from 1970s to present - **[market_signal]** Pinball pricing progression: nickel/dime games early; 3 for quarter in 1970s; $1-2 per game by 2019 (confidence: high) — Edward Tripunsky provides detailed pricing history from his era - **[business_signal]** Parts availability for electromagnetic pinball machines was difficult in 1970s-1980s; now much easier due to aftermarket support (confidence: medium) — Host notes 'parts are much easier to come by' today and 'many businesses which service the home collector now' - **[personnel_signal]** Steve Kirk transitioned from major collector to designer for Stern, showing talent pipeline from enthusiasts into design roles (confidence: high) — Host and guest discuss Kirk's evolution from collector to Stern designer --- ## Transcript What's that sound? It's 4 Amusement Only, the EM and Bingo Pinball Podcast. Welcome back to 4 Amusement Only. This is Nick Baldrige, and today I have a special guest, the author of Special Win Lit, Edward Tripunsky. Edward, how are you? I'm doing good. How are you doing? I am doing very well. Special Win Lit was published in 1979. That's right. is, I think, a fascinating book, especially for its time, about this hobby that I'm sure we both love, pinball. So, Edward, before we begin in-depth here, I wanted to ask you, how old are you? I'm 71. Wow, okay. Okay. And in the beginning of the book, it talks about how you got into pinball in the back of the candy shop Morty's. Now, do you remember what games that you played, by any chance? No, I don't remember those games. I do remember further on. and 1979, you mentioned, was significant because it was really the end of electromagnetic and the start of more digital games and you had a really different feel. Before that, when I was playing with the back of mortises, don't forget I was like 12 years old at the time, so you could see how long ago it was, there was yet a different feel to them because it was all wood rail and it's only later that they became steel rail. absolutely and do you have any favorite games from the Woodriol era from your youth well I owned a couple the most significant one was Queen of Hearts that was the one I used to play the most do you know it oh yes, beautiful game yeah and you know one of the things is the features on it and if you look at Queen of Hearts It's really a simple game, but it had all kinds of different things that you would find in a pinball game. It had lots of targets, lots of alleys, and those kinds of things. It was really the start of a different kind of design for pinball games. Absolutely. And it's a very featureful machine. And one of the things that I really like about it is the multiple ways to win. Was that something that attracted you? yeah it detracted me I just had an interest in the games generally I played just about all of them from the time and in a lot of ways it's hard for me to differentiate because I like them all it's like picking your favorite son or you know that kind of thing there's something about every one of them and helps your heart skip a beat. And I used to go to the arcades a lot. You don't see as many arcades or the same way that they were back in the day. I don't know what it's like where you are, but up here, there are really no more dedicated arcades. Now they're part of restaurants or bars, and you don't see, like, 50 games all next to each other, and you can pick and choose which of the 50 you want to play. Yes, it's the same here, unfortunately. Yeah. In your book, you mention that pinball was illegal in Montreal. Illegal in Canada, not just Montreal. The entirety of Canada, really? Yeah, and also it was illegal in many places in the U.S., and I spent a lot of time in New York City, and if you look at my book, you'll see pictures of Mayor LaGuardia trashing pinball machines because it was especially legal there. They thought that they were gambling machines and that's what made them illegal. And the same thought carried into Canada as well? Absolutely, yeah. It's one of the ways I got into it. You know, I was working as a producer on a radio program and it was a news program and it was very featurey and there were two things that triggered me writing the book. One was that I met this woman, Oriana Curry, who was, I call her the pinball queen of Canada because her and her husband were the ones who imported and sold and serviced many of the pinball machines in Canada and she got into trouble. They were charged and I ran a bunch of stories about Mrs. Curry, who became a friend. She's no longer with us, but I wrote about her. And the other thing that really appealed to me was the artwork. At the same time as I was writing about Mrs. Curry, there was an exhibition of pinball art, black glasses, in actually Regina, Saskatchewan. I did a story about that and looked at the artwork and looked at the catalog for the art show. And if you could get a copy of the catalog, I might even have one that I could show you sometime, you could see sort of the appeal, the artistic appeal of pinball at the time. Absolutely. You mentioned that Mrs. Curry got into trouble. Yes. Did that stop the import of games entirely? Was she the primary importer or a distributor for a particular brand? Well, she liked Gottlieb's. I think at that time, Gottlieb's were the ones that most people liked more than the other brands, more than Bally's. So she brought in everything. And I wouldn't say she was the major, but she was one of the major. She was one of the ones that, how could I put it, didn't have any kind of organizational connections. Is that a diplomatic way of saying it? Yes, I think so. Yeah. So she was one of the few. She actually lived outside of Toronto in a rural community and had a big barn where she brought in the games and before she could actually send them out to places, she would have to make sure that they were working, and that's where she did all the work. Her and her husband. Her husband actually died electrocuted fixing pinball machines. Oh, gosh. So that's how she took over the business. Well, that's tragic, but also a very interesting start. Yes. And I actually traveled with her quite a bit because there was, you know, a lot of conventions. And I would go with her to the conventions. and business was something. A lot of it was a cash business. So when you saw people making deals about bringing pinball machines in, the payments were made with suitcases full of cash. Not quarters, but cash. Nothing sketchy about that. Nothing sketchy at all. So that brings me to a question that I have, and perhaps you can answer this, perhaps not. I am partial to bingo pinball machines. Yeah, bingos were the gambling ones, weren't they? Yes. Yeah. Go ahead. I was going to ask, did she pull in bingos at all, or were those mostly left to the connected folks? Those were, I think, left to the connective cells. And I don't remember seeing that many of them in Canada. I'm not sure that they made the inroads here that they did in other places. I knew about the bingos, and I did see some, but I never saw any on location. And I think a lot of it was because of the law. Yeah. because at the arcades they did have regular police visits to see that everything was in order. And, you know, we're talking about 1979, right? And 1979 was really before the electronic games and before the video games that they would have at arcades. It was just at the cusp, just at the time. So things were changing a lot, and I think that the laws were changing as well. Yes. And if you had the bingos, the bingos were more video games than they were bingo pinballs. Ah, I see. Yeah, you've mentioned 79 being such a pivotal year for the arcade and coin-operated industry. So what made it feel like the right time to publish this book? I think it's such a unique snapshot of that time. and it's very interesting. So what prompted you to do that aside from the work that you were doing as a producer? Because I know that there must be more to it. Well, basically what I am is a storyteller, right? What I found interesting about Pinball was it's storytelling and it's interesting stories and there's lots of stories. I hope it comes through in the book. But you mentioned the title, special one lit, but the subtitle is a visual and anecdotal history of pinball. And really what we're talking about when we're talking about pinball is a social history. It's a way that you could really understand how things developed around pinball. Pinball as a metaphor for a lot of other things that were going on in society over the years. Because if you look at pinball, it really started at the time of the expo in Chicago in the 1930s, which was a time of economic upheaval, and that's when it started. And through the years, if you follow the history of pinball, it reflects what's going on in society. And also, if you look at the artwork, we talked about what game did I like the most, which was Queen of Hearts. and you liked the bingo games and that was reflective of the fact that gambling was something that a lot of people did. They knew what Queen of Hearts was. They knew the whole idea of gambling. But later on, as it developed, most of the games took on an aspect of popular culture. So it was either movies that became popular, like Star Wars was a big pinball game of its time, or TV shows, Tommy, which was around 1979 which brought a lot of interest to the whole idea of pinball and that's when you get it you get a lot of reflection of societies and what got me interested was just the curiosity about it and development and I had a lot of fun doing it because I got to meet really interesting people a lot of the people I spoke to were collectors and I got to see people who had warehouses full of of games stretching back through the years. And it was just the start of electronic games, just the start. And I didn't do it because it was a start. It was my nostalgia. I mean, it is partly nostalgia. It was different. It wasn't the fact that electromagnetic games were coming to an end. It just was. It was just in the air at the time. Yes, and that's part of what makes it so fascinating is it's not nostalgia. As you say, it's more a reflection of the current time period and then a look ahead, which I find very fascinating and prescient, I would say. As far as the collectors that you interviewed and were able to meet with, are there any particular names that stick out? I don't remember them. You were talking about 40 years ago, right? Yes. So I don't remember, but I could tell you the place I visited. The biggest collection that I saw, there was actually two. One was in Linden, New Jersey, and the other one was in Poughkeepsie. And, you know, I was working with a photographer, who's quite a well-known photographer. I'm not sure if you know who he is. He's not with us anymore. But he's the guy who did the photograph of Marilyn Monroe, where she's signing an event and her skirt blows up. And he also did the photograph for Lolita, where she has the heart-shaped sunrocker. So you had a real sense also of the artwork and the reflection of what's going on and the beauty of design. So together we went to visit a lot of these places. Excellent. And as you went, you were collecting this social history, as you put it? Yeah, I was... Basically, I went in and I wanted to write a book about Ed Ball, and my publisher was interested in it. It's only as you write it that you develop a theme, a way to approach it, and it only you know really after I been through it that I looked and I said hey this is a social history One thing I made a note about is that you have a phrase that the industry is given to hyperbole And I would say, especially in matters of marketing. Yes, yeah. I don't know if you spent a lot of time looking at the various ads or flyers as you were compiling. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely, yeah. It was all hyperbole. They do well today. Yes. Again, because, you know, in your country, the political situation is all hyperbole, right? Mm-hmm. So they would fit right in. This is the greatest, the best. There's never been anything like this before. Exactly. Aside from collectors, as you were compiling the book, did you interview any designers? Oh, I did indeed. I spent a lot of time in Chicago. At that time, there were three companies that were the pinball manufacturers. One was Gottlieb, which we talked about, and as far as I was concerned, that was the leader of the industry at the time. The other was Williams, and the third was Stern, and Stern was the smallest of the three. It was really Gottlieb and Williams that were the two industry leaders. And I spent a lot of time with both of them and actually went down to meet Harry Williams, who, by the time I was doing my book, was well on and retired and living in California in Palm Springs. But he's a really, really interesting guy. And also the artists and the designers were just terrific. Very, very colorful. There's a guy called Steve Kordick who's one of the designers. and Harry Mabs was another name that I remember. And I can't remember the name of the artist. Do you remember from my book or from your own experience who was just incredible? He worked for all three companies because I met him and he was eccentric, you know? And when you look at the artwork that he did and what we would today call Easter eggs that he put into the artwork, He really had a terrific eye. Yes. Are you speaking about Parker? Yes. Yes. I am. Leroy Parker, yeah. Yeah. He was the guy. I spent a lot of time with him, and I could remember his name, but I did spend a lot of time with him. That's really fascinating. Unfortunately, there are not many recorded interviews with Mr. Parker that survived. Yes. Now there was actually, Parker was towards the end of his career at the time Dave Christensen was the guy He was the designer who was the designer of import at the time Roy Parker was just finishing up And you're right, there weren't a lot of interviews with him Because there weren't a lot of interviews at the time At the time I wrote my book, I think there were three books about pinball That came out around the same time suddenly developed an interest in the area. It's interesting. Reading a book like this, for me, it's like a time capsule. I'm able to go back and see what the thought process was, and it's pretty amazing. I've been out of it for a long time, and you would know better than me. Whether or not there's the same kind of spirit, and if you go to Chicago, and they're all done in Chicago, right? whether you still have the same kind of people who are doing it or sort of renegades and rebels, which you see in the artwork and also you see in the design. I know that Christensen is long gone from the industry, or whether it's become much more corporate than it was when I was doing the book. I would say that it's become quite a bit more corporate than in the 70s especially. There is one company which is Chicago-based. The others are actually all over the United States. Are they? Yes. So many of them closed down. Every one of those names that you mentioned is gone. Stern has been replaced by a new incarnation of Stern, but they're the last surviving Chicago manufacturer. And what about Gottlieb? Gottlieb is gone completely? Gottlieb is gone completely, unfortunately. Yeah. 96, I believe. 96. So Gottlieb was interesting to me financially because Gottlieb was a private company. Yes. And just after I finished my book, Gottlieb was bought over by Columbia Pictures. And I thought, boy, how smart Columbia Pictures is to buy a company like Gottlieb. And I bought stock at Columbia Pictures. And I did very well because shortly thereafter, Columbia Pictures was taken over by Coca-Cola. Yes. So Coca-Cola owned the Godley Company at one time. And I think that you say that only Stern is left, that Bally more and more stopped doing pinballs and started doing gambling machines for Las Vegas. And if you went to Las Vegas, Bally was the name on a lot of the one-armed bandits that you would see. And I'm wondering if there are still Bally's, Bally's. I don't know if it's still the same company or if it's also been bought over many times. It also has changed hands many a time. Right now, the current ownership is Scientific Gaming, but they still produce machines with the Bally name and logo. Bally, as a pinball entity, was purchased by Williams in... Yes, I remember. The 80s, 90s, and then Williams closed their pinball division around 1999, 2000. So did they shut their door completely? They did, to pinball. They're doing something else, right? They got into gaming heavily, and then Scientific Gaming, I believe, ended up buying them later on. So it's kind of a full circle thing. Yeah, a real consolidation. Yes. Yeah. You know there's a TV documentary, too. Yes. Right? called Special Unlit. Nothing to do with me. I was surprised it shows the name of my book. I never met the people. I don't know who they are. I don't know if you've interviewed them yet. They're English. Yeah, I have spoken with one of the people who appears in the film, but I have not interviewed the people who made the film. Did you see it? Yes. Because I haven't. Yes, I have. It focuses on several specific and very interesting personalities and paints them in a particular light that is not very appealing, shall we say. So it is not a very favorable depiction of either these people or the hobby. So it's interesting. But, yeah, nothing at all to do with your book. yeah they never talked to me never asked me so I didn't know and also the name Special One Lit we chose after the fact Special One Lit is a really interesting name to give it right because that's what you're really looking for but we've had another name before and I can't remember the legal reasons why we couldn't use it but we chose Special One Lit which was really good excellent well I think it's very apropos. Yeah. So do you still play? Do you play your own games or do you play in arcades or back at bars? I play any chance I can get. Yeah. So I have my own games and I even build games and design them and play them on location just everywhere I can. And I do a lot of fixing as well. That's really my passion is to fix games, especially electromechanical. It's hard to find the parts. Even when I owned two or three games, I can't remember them all, it was hard to find the parts to get them fixed. That's the nice thing about today is that actually the parts are much easier to come by. There are many businesses which service the home collector now, and I have a feeling that that was very nascent at the time that you might have had machines. Things were obviously quite different without the Internet and so forth. I had three or four at one time, three or four games that I owned, and I moved. And when I moved, I couldn't move them. The only thing I kept were bag of towels. I have a couple of bag of towels. You know what bag of towels are, right? Oh, yes. Yeah, I love them. Yeah. Yeah, I have a couple of baguettels, which were precursors of pinball machines, right? But I didn't bring my pinball games with me. I took them out of the newspaper, and it was a Sunday edition of the paper, and I went to sleep, and I thought, well, it's going to take a couple of weeks to sell my pinball games, right? And a paper came out supposedly at 7 or 8 in the morning. At about 2 in the morning, my phone started to ring with people saying, how quickly can I come over and buy your machines from you? Wow. So I'm guessing you entertained hoppers at 2 in the morning. Well, it was actually first come, first served. Somebody had come from away with a pickup truck and took my machines away. I had to put a price on them, you know? I didn't say best offer. I actually priced them. Wow, that's great. So you still have the baguettels today, though? I have the baguettels, yeah. Do you know what titles they are, or if they had... They were entitled. Okay. They were... There's one that has sort of French-themed pictures on it. The other one has no pictures. This is just a piece of wood with, you know, pins or nails put into it with a few slots. And I tried to get the age on it, looking at the nails, because, you know, nails have changed form over the course of years. Yes. And I'm thinking that the bagatelle I have, the one that has no painting on it, is probably from around the late 1800s. So we're talking about before pinball games, really. Oh, yes. Because if you read my book, and I'm sure you know this as well, that pinball is like one of the most ancient games. You're talking about rolling a ball or rolling a rock down a slope, trying to get it into certain slots with barriers in between stopping it from going down. So that's how they developed it. We're talking about the ancient Greeks and ancient Egyptians who had those types of games. It's hard to put your finger on exactly where it started, but that was the whole idea of what pinball games were in ancient days. And then I talked to you about the social history, but it's also the history of industry, of technology, that as you get new technology, you put them into games, and you put them into pinball games. So when you had electromagnetic games, it was the start of how do you use electricity for fun, right? And then when they became digital, how do you use digital techniques for fun? What do you do to build those things? And that's sort of the history of pinball. Very much. So do you still play today pinball? You know what? I stopped for a long time, and I met somebody who said, I have a son who really likes pinball, and I saw your book, and I'd like to take you out with my son, whose passion is really pinball, to play with him. And I did, and I went to play with him. And again, you know, we're talking about six or seven machines in a back room, just like Morty's, except Morty only had two machines. He had one that was a pinball machine and one that was a different type of gaming machine. He had like a baseball game where the ball came down, right, and you hit it with the flipper and you tried to get it into, you know, home run, single, that kind of thing. Right. But, you know, and now the places he took me to were six or seven gangs in a room. They're different than what I remembered because, as I told you, they're all based on popular culture, on movies and other things that are out right now. They're not electromechanical anymore, although I did see some that I think they brought in just for the sake of nostalgia. So it was a different type of experience. And also, when I was playing, it was three for a quarter. You don't remember those days because you're too young, right? Correct. It was three for a quarter. You played three for a quarter. Now it's like, you know, you want to play a game, it's a dollar or two dollars. I don't know what they are commercially in Richmond, but that's what they are here. They're a dollar here. A dollar for one game, right? Correct, yeah, three balls. yeah and my day was five balls for five balls three games for a quarter yeah Quite a difference in value Yeah Or maybe not depending on how you look at inflation right Right. Back then, you made a lot less money. Yeah. Very true. And when you first started, what was the cost? Was it a nickel? I'm not familiar with Canadian money. Unfortunately, I've never been to Canada, so I don't really know much. Well, I can't tell you about when I started. I think it was a nickel a game or ten cents a game. But when I was writing my book, it was three for a quarter. Were there multiple shoots that would allow you to put in dimes? Was it one game for a dime, three for a quarter? No, it was quarters. And the arcades that I played, they had guys walking around with quarters, in a little apron in front of them, and you had to go and change for quarters. And there were no slugs. There were other jurisdictions, not where I live, but in other jurisdictions where you couldn't put in a quarter. You had to buy slugs. There were special slugs that you had in order to play. Here we call them tokens, but they are the same idea as a slug, aren't they? Yes, that's right. I hadn't really thought about that. One thing that you mention in your book, You mentioned that the 1950s were an era of great innovation. Yes. And can you speak to that a bit? What made you say that? It was just my research that that's the time when the companies were developing. You know, the companies were basically developed by immigrants because they couldn't be lawyers or bankers, right, because they weren't allowed to. It was a different type of society at the time. And in the 1950s, which is post-war, where people were coming back from the wars, they were developing themselves, and that's when the industry developed and you found all the innovative people who weren't allowed to do anything else, getting into games. There were other industries that they got into that weren't as established and respectable. and at that time pinball was one of those industries that just wasn't respectable. So when you looked at Harry Gottlieb and Harry Williams, those are the things they got into and they were innovative people and entrepreneurs and they were always looking to develop and as I said, it's all the technology that was developing at the time. We think of technology now as computer-based but technology means more than just computer-based and that's why the whole idea of electromagnetic was so important. The ability to use electricity and magnetism to make these games what they were. Some very fascinating ideas came out of that. And Williams would do things with just a single flipper in some instances. Yep. Various trample placements and so forth. Fancy bells, whistles, sirens. Yes, yeah. All part of it Yeah Yeah Boy You're really You know I told you I was out of it For so long And I can't remember A lot of things But you sure are Bringing it back for me Good You know It's such Such a pleasure To think about those things again I should have kept it up You know Well But I never did There's There's no time like the present Right Yeah Well I should come down to Richmond And play your games You know Yeah You're more than welcome So I wanted to just have a couple notes here of things that I found incredibly well written and two things you have a very good write up of bingos and a description of their operation in the book did you ever play one? I played them but I didn't play it regularly you know because they weren't that prevalent at the time at least not where we were because, as I said, bingos are gambling games, right? Right. It's a whole idea. This is the case that Mrs. Curry was making at the time. Was it pinballs were gambling games? You won free games, but the whole purpose was just to play for the fun of it, not that you're going to be able to win merchandise or win money from playing the bingos. But don't forget how they developed. They did develop as gambling games to start, and then evolved. Everything was an evolution, right? Absolutely. So you started with gambling games, and that's what people were interested in. And, you know, we were talking about the 1930s. Well, people didn't have a lot of disposable income. So if you played for dimes and nickels and maybe win a dollar, it was a big deal. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. The 40s didn't like it, but there you go. Yep. I was very impressed because, as I've been speaking with you, it sounds like you haven't had a lot of experience with them, but it was very... Not lately. Very well-read. I did then. Good to know. I did then, but not lately. And, you know, I did it because I'm a writer, not because of... As you, you're doing it because of your passion, right? Mm-hmm. and me I'm doing it because it's such interesting culture or subculture whatever you want to call it that that I wanted to tell the stories and I'm just looking at my bookshelf right now to see if I could tell you oh here we go books that I have that are pinball books so I've got a book and tell me if you know them and if you have them in your collection one's called Pinball Portfolio by Harry McEwan. Do you know that book? I have seen it, but I do not own it. Yeah, when you come to my house sometimes. Roger Sharp, he was the guy who was writing at the time. His book was called Pinball and actually went into the business. He went to work, I think, for Williams. And here's another one called Pinball, an illustrated history by a guy called Henry Comer. Do you know that book? I have seen that one, yes. And I've got one here which is called All About Pinball by a woman called, I remember her really well, Natkins. I can't remember her first name. I'm just looking at the spine as I open it. Steve Kirk, she wrote it with. She was one of the collectors. Bobby Claire Natkins was her name. Steve Kirk was one of the big collectors. Can we meet him? I did not. He eventually became a designer for Stern. Yes. Yes, he did indeed. And here I've got a catalog that first inspired me, which is called Tilt. Tilt, Pinball Machines, 1931 to 1958. That was the catalog. Wow, is that ever a neat book. It sounds very neat. Yeah, and I've got, that's it. Those are all the pinball books of the time. I'm not sure what's happened since then, but when I was doing it, as I told you, that was sort of the golden age of people thinking about pinball. I'm not sure it's the golden age of designing pinball machines, so I like to think it was going on then, too, especially because of Dave Christensen. The stuff that he did. Do you have any of his games? Do you know? I do not. You don't have any of them? I'm very familiar with his work, though. Yeah, because if you look at it, and as I said, It's the flesh. That's what he kept calling it. It's the flesh of the back glass. The back glass. And it's full of Easter eggs. The stuff he put into it was incredible. The detail he would put into it. And you wouldn't know unless you were looking, right? Faces of other people in the industry, right? Sexual innuendos, because there were a lot of people who thought that, you know, just the motion of playing was kind of sexual. So he put those innuendos into it. And other things about and around him. He was one of the most interesting people that I met during my journey doing pinball. He seems like quite a character from... Yeah, from what you've read, eh? From what I've read, yes. Yeah. I wonder if he's still with us. He was older than me, so if he's still with us, he'd be... As far as I know, he is. He is definitely up there. Also, there was a guy called Rob Burke. Did you ever hear of him? Yes, he runs the Pinball Expo in Chicago. Still does? Yes, he does. I spoke there several times, and that was really interesting. He really cared. So the Expo still goes on, hey? It does, yes. Do you go? I have never been to the Chicago Expo. I go to more regional shows. But yeah, I certainly have friends that go And go every year It's still a place to go You know, to meet with the manufacturers And play the latest games And meet other collectors And so forth The manufacturers don't exist in Chicago anymore No, but they travel And they go to that show It is still a big deal In the industry Yeah, interesting and exciting I spoke with another collector who mentioned that you gave a talk at one of the early Pinball Expos. Was it the first Pinball Expo? First and second. Rob used to come up here to visit with me, and I went down with him a few times. So, yes, I did speak there. The thing about the industry is that it was all nice people, you know? When you're designing a game, right, or even selling a game or distributing a game, You're bringing fun to people's lives, right? If they're not smiling before they meet you, they're smiling afterwards. Hopefully so, right? Yeah. It's all about amusement. That's what we're called, amusement games. Yep. So, one of the things that you write about is how the coin mechanism operates. Yep. It seems so simple, but your description of it is probably the best that I've ever read. And it's something that is taken for granted. You know, you throw money into it and it starts up, right? Yeah. But your description is very well written and thought out. So I thought I'd say thank you for that. It's great. Well, the part that was most interesting for me was how do you play? Mm-hmm. And I sort of tried to make it like a circus thing, you know? Yes. Just to give it some kind of metaphor of how do you play the game, you know? And it's not static. Right. That's the chapter, step right up, a winner every time. Yeah, that's right, yeah. So I have to ask, did you ever try to design your own game? Never, no. As I said, I'm a writer, you know? Mm-hmm. And that's what I do. But I love to watch it and think about it, you know? And it's so descriptive. I'm just looking now at this picture of Mayor LaGuardia destroying a pinball machine. It's heartbreaking, isn't it? It is, yes. Fortunately, there's many others like it. I'm looking at some of the photos of everything that's going on. I'm looking right now at the game called Knockout. Do you know it? Yes. and you look at everything that he put into that picture. Yes. There's so much that's going on. And in my book, I've got all the details of, you know, because, you know, you're looking at the whole thing, but when you look at all the details and each character has its own character and there's so many things going on in that, on that back glass. It's incredible the amount of artwork. that is on any machine. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate the zoomed-in faces of the back glass because it definitely shows off. It's easier to see in micro versus macro, you know, what's going on. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, because why did they have fun doing it, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what made it fun for us to play because they enjoy doing it so much. And there's always some little detail that you hadn't noticed before the next time you step up to play. And it's a partnership, right? Yes. A partnership between the artist and the designer. Mm-hmm. And it's even a partnership between the artist and the designer and the player. Right, yes. They definitely had the player in mind with various features and the artwork in order to draw them in and become a part of that game. Yep. Yeah. I did give it up. I'm embarrassed to say, but it's true, for a long time. And partly meeting this young man who's so into it has rekindled my interest. And also this interview with you has rekindled my interest in it. But I'm just wondering, what's the experience now? My reflexes aren't what they were when I wrote this book. I was still in my 20s, you know? So what would it be like to play regularly now? I love the same reflexes that I did then and also the games are different because they don react the same way when they not electromagnetic as they do when they more digital I agree That actually a big problem for me because I prefer playing the electromechanical games mostly I do love some of the newer games, but there is a lot to the newer games which is more flash, you know, more style versus necessarily substance for the player. So I have a hard time with some of the newer ones because there's a lot of hurry up and wait involved. A lot of hurry up and wait, and there's so many features that are piled on one top of the other, you know? Mm-hmm. That, you know, you sort of lose the simplicity of the game because there's too much going on. That's the appeal for me of the 1950s games where you have four bumpers and a few stand-up targets and maybe some gobble holes. And with that arrangement, there might be four or five, maybe more different ways that you can win. It's amazing the imagination when you're constrained with the amount of stuff that you can put in the game. Well, now it's all ramps, you know? Yes, yeah. How high can we make the ball travel above the play field? where it should be rolling. Yeah. And nothing is labeled anymore, unfortunately, with the amount that the targets score. Right. So that's a bit of an annoyance to me. I don't know if you feel the same way or if I'm kind of an oddball, but it's one of the two, I'm sure. But the other thing is also the multiple balls, right? Yes. If you would have multiple balls in my day, it'd be one extra ball that you'd be having to keep track of. Now you can have so many multiple balls on the field at the same time. Yeah. It's just too much sensory input. Yeah, it definitely feels that way. Some games have six or more at one time. It's a lot. Yeah. And not necessarily in a pleasing cacophony. Yeah, I'm just wondering, you know, So don't forget, I talked about starting to play when I was 12 years old, right? Yeah. And whether if you're now in your teens, the idea of the cacophony really appeals to you, or is it equal to the cacophony that I felt back then, 40 years ago? That's an excellent question, and I don't have an answer to that. That's a good thing to think about, though. And certainly, the games of today definitely appeal to younger people and people my age as well, and even older people as well. It all depends. And the older games, though, have their own unique appeal. And I try to, with this show in particular, try to tell people these games are very interesting and nuanced, despite the seeming simplicity, just by looking at it off, you know? Yes. Well, they were truly designed, right? It wasn't, let's throw everything in but the kitchen sink. It was truly, if we put this there, then this will affect that there. everything was sort of fit together well rather than let's just put everything we can on the field and whatever happens, happens. Right, yeah. There was a lot of thought given to the entertainment you would receive for that nickel, I feel. Yeah. Or dime or quarter, yeah. Three for a quarter. That's all you had. So did you ever visit ad posters or did you interview the artists like Dave Christensen at Bally directly? Yeah, I went to all those places. I spent a lot of time in Chicago doing my research, not only visiting the places, but also I don't know if you know that at the University of Chicago, there's a really good archive of what Pitbull and their boys have been. Interesting. I did not know that, actually. I'll have to look that up. Yeah. I wonder if it's still there. It was sort of like the New York City Chicago Library that had it all. And they had all the, you're asking about the hype, right? And they had all the old magazines and the old posters. They were all there. Oh, really? Yeah. Interesting. If that's your interest, that's the place to go. I'm very fascinated in any historical aspect, really, of the game. So, marketing, distribution, it's all of great appeal to me. I kept all my files, you know, but I haven't been through them in a long time. And I didn't even look at my book until you called because I asked you if I should. And you said, don't bother, because I don't even remember writing about the coin mechanism, right? Mm-hmm. And I forgot some of the names. But I do have all the research that I did, and maybe I should give it to you. I would love to see that. I'd be happy to get that into an archive of some kind. Yeah. If you'd be willing to share that with the world. Well, I'd have to dig it up. It's somewhere. I remember keeping it. I was going to actually give it to one of the universities here. University of Waterloo has a strong department of leisure and recreation oh really yeah but I never got around to it so I still have it in my basement, I don't have the games anymore except for the two baguettels but I still kept all my research and your baguettels, do they use pool cues One does and one doesn't One you just drop it down the slope I see You talk about pull cues You know when I'm talking about baguette It's desktop Yes We're not talking about a big thing with legs or anything Oh Just pick it on a desk I see You're talking about the smaller home type versions That's right And one of them I think was commercial and one was done by somebody, you know, to entertain himself and his friends. The book was originally published in 1979. Have there been any reprintings? No. It's out of print. It did pretty well at the time. The cover price on it, I think, was $7.99 or something. $6.95. $6.95? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which a book wouldn't sell for these days. I found the book very fascinating. Where did you get it? Was it the one that I gave to, or did you find it on Amazon or somewhere? I found it on eBay. On eBay. For five cents or for $500? It was vastly more than five cents, but also vastly less than $500. Because that's what, when I look for it, that's what I see on eBay, is that sometimes it's selling for the price of a pinball game, when I need to play one, or for $500, depending on how rare they see it at the time. It was about $40, if I recall. Yeah. And now there are a lot of pinball sites on the Internet. Of course, when I wrote this book, there weren't, because it wasn't Internet. Right. But now you'll see a lot of pinball sites. And in a lot of ways, the interest in pinball has grown because you could share it around the world before. You know, if you didn't have somebody live down the street from you, it was much harder to get involved. When you were playing at Morty's, did you have a circle of friends that would go and play as well, or was it you against the machine? It was me against the machine. I was trying to remember what I was doing at the time. I was playing instead of doing my homework. And I think a lot of the people that I was in school with were doing their homework. So I'd start off with a group of people you'd line up to get your turn at the game. But by the time they left and I was the only one there, I was playing by myself. Understood. Last man standing. That's right. And I don't remember exactly, but I think, I know that it was at the back of Morty's. It was behind a curtain. He had a black curtain, and he had just two games. One was a pinball machine, and the other was a baseball game or one of those other types of games. At certain times, it was wide open. You could go in another time. He was really careful that nobody saw because of the law. Yeah, that must have been very interesting. So were you ever able to communicate that, you know, you really enjoyed these games with other people, or were you also worried about the stigma or fear of the game being removed? There was no stigma. It was Morty cared because he would get fined or, I don't know, he was the one who was running a gaming joint. You know, if you're playing there and you're 12 years old, it wasn't as if you were a found-in, right? Although there was, in certain places, age limits. where, you know, 18 are over. And when you were playing, did you ever come across a game that had obviously been rigged to prevent you from winning? Not that I could remember. And don't forget, you're talking about bingos where you won a prize? This is just winning free games, right? Any amusement game, yeah, where they were set not to give replays. I'm just curious about the climate, because in New York, for example, or Wisconsin, and you would earn free balls instead of free games. Free balls, free games, yes. So in the 1950s, you know, they hadn't introduced that concept yet, but in the 60s they did. And so I'm just curious if you were earning more free balls and extending your game time typically, or were you earning free games or neither? Well, I don't know if I mentioned it in the book. I can't remember. but the idea at the time was that they set the limit, right? So if they wanted you to win more, then the amount of points you had to get was less and if they saw you were winning too much, then the amount that they would set was higher. You could set that, right? Yes. And I think that in a lot of places it's where they felt there was more traffic or less traffic. Or if they wanted to attract people to play, then they'd make it easier to win. Right? Same way of playing the lottery. Yeah. And for you, as you traveled around, did you seek out places where the games might be easier to win on? or did you have a particular favorite game that you liked to play in the Metal Rail era after Queen of Hearts? I just liked to play. And the competition was with the game, but it was also about how well you could do no matter what the limit was for winning, you know? Because you're playing against other people, too, you know? Right. some of them were single player, and then I'm not sure if there are any single player left, or they're all multiplayer where you're playing against somebody else. Can you do better or worse than your friend, right? And also, I never played as if, you know, if I win this game, then I owe you a dollar. It was, I won, and that was the reward, was just the fact that you beat the game. A lot less gambling going on. Yeah. It makes sense, though. Yeah. Edward, I want to thank you for your time. Okay. And I really appreciate this. This was so much fun for me to rethink things I haven't thought about in a long time. Absolutely. And it's been fun for me as well. It's always great to meet a new person in this hobby, and especially such a talented writer as yourself. thank you very much for your time and I look forward to speaking with you in the future and I hope that we can meet up one day over a pinball game, you know that'd be great take care and have a nice evening you too, thank you Edwin I would like to thank my guest Edward Chepunsky for joining me tonight and his book Special Winlet A Visual and Anecdotal History of Pinball which was published in 1979 along with the other books that Edward spoke about will be linked in the show notes in case you would like to purchase them. If you would like to get in touch with me, my email address is 4amusementonlypodcast at gmail.com. You can listen to the show on iTunes, Stitcher, Pocket Casts, via RSS, on Facebook, on Twitter, at Bingo Podcast. You can follow me on Instagram, also at Bingo Podcast. Or you can listen to me on my website, which is 4amusementonly.libsyn.com. Thanks very much for listening, and I'll talk to you next time. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 76efdcb2-9ae8-43e0-85c0-ee4650856c2f*