# Ep 29: Bobbleheads **Source:** Final Round Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2021-03-13 **Duration:** 103m 40s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.finalroundpinball.com/final-round-pinball-podcast-ep-29-bobbleheads/ --- ## Analysis Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 29 features host Jeff Teolis and guest Todd McCulloch, a former NBA player (6'11") and pinball enthusiast from Canada, discussing Canadian stereotypes, March Madness, tournament play, and the psychological differences between competitive basketball and pinball. The episode covers Todd's basketball career, his shift in perspective on tournament competition, and how elite players manage pressure and focus. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Todd McCulloch is 6'11" and 13/16" tall — _Todd McCulloch stated this explicitly when asked to confirm his height_ - [HIGH] Todd has children aged 13 and 11 (turning 11 next week) — _Todd mentioned this when discussing his reduced tournament participation_ - [HIGH] Todd played in the NCAA tournament twice and made the Sweet 16 in 1998 with University of Washington — _Todd described losing to Rip Hamilton's team as an 11-seed against a 2-seed in the Sweet 16_ - [HIGH] Todd has been playing pinball tournaments since approximately 2006 (about 15 years) — _Jeff checked Todd's IFPA profile and Todd confirmed the timeframe_ - [HIGH] Todd's highest IFPA ranking was 85th — _Todd stated 'I think the highest I've ever been is 85th' regarding his IFPA rankings_ - [HIGH] Todd won an Expo tournament once — _Todd said 'I did win Expo one year, so I got that little notch in my bedpost'_ - [HIGH] Todd won $500 from Rip Hamilton playing poker at a casino in Motor City — _Todd mentioned 'playing poker at a casino in Motor City, I took $500 off Rip Hamilton'_ - [HIGH] Todd prefers to play pinball sitting on a bar stool at home rather than standing — _Todd explained he sits on a bar stool at home but stands in tournaments, creating inconsistency_ - [HIGH] Todd has owned Whitewater, Pinbot, and Medieval Madness pinball machines — _Todd described purchasing these machines when he signed with the Nets in New Jersey_ ### Notable Quotes > "I'm 6'11" and 13/16". So just a shade under." > — **Todd McCulloch**, N/A > _Direct confirmation of Todd's unusual height, which becomes a running topic throughout the episode_ > "You should wear a cowbell so you don't sneak up on people. Sneak up on people? You block out the sun. Can't they see the shadow from a mile away?" > — **Todd McCulloch**, N/A > _Humorous anecdote about the absurdity of comments tall people receive_ > "If I told you, 'Hey, this is a big shot, hit it. We're going to win or we're going to lose.' I'd get all nervous and I'd miss the shot. And he just he tricked my brain and say, 'Hey, we need three snack bars, get the first one.'" > — **Bowen Cairns (quoted by Todd)**, N/A > _Reveals an advanced psychological technique elite pinball players use to manage tournament pressure_ > "I've always wanted to be good. But I think more importantly, I've just wanted to have fun. And if I have to disassemble this game down to its elements, I'm not interested. I wanted to keep it whole and pure." > — **Todd McCulloch**, N/A > _Demonstrates Todd's philosophy contrasting with elite players who practice individual shots; important for understanding his approach to the hobby_ > "There must be something wrong with me because this is all I want to do. And I'm sick and I need help. And then all I did instead of getting help is I found other people that like to do that as well." > — **Todd McCulloch**, N/A > _Describes discovering the pinball community after realizing his passion for the game wasn't unique_ > "I wasn't a college student anymore, so I don't have to study. I'm a professional basketball player. And my job on a non-game day is probably between 11 in the afternoon until 2. So I had a lot of downtime." > — **Todd McCulloch**, N/A > _Explains how he transitioned into serious pinball collecting during his NBA career_ > "The problem with pinball is you've got more time to actually reflect and that can make things worse." > — **Jeff Teolis or unidentified host**, N/A > _Articulates a key psychological difference between fast-paced basketball and turn-based pinball competition_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Todd McCulloch | person | Former NBA player, pinball enthusiast and collector, Canadian, 6'11" tall, competitive pinball player since ~2006, guest on Final Round Podcast Ep 29 | | Jeff Teolis | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast, Canadian, pinball player and media personality, red-haired, teased about Canadian stereotypes in this episode | | Martin (Marty) | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast, Australian, participates in Canadian stereotype banter, unfamiliar with March Madness | | Bowen Cairns | person | Elite pinball player, rules expert, great player and motivator, teammate with Todd in doubles tournament, known for psychological coaching techniques | | Ed Robertson | person | Pinball community member who helped Todd change his perspective on tournament play vs. enjoying the overall pinball experience | | Keith Elwin | person | Elite pinball player known for staying calm and composed under tournament pressure | | The Sharp brothers | person | Among the best pinball players in the world, known for practicing advanced techniques like drop catches and removing glass to improve | | Rip Hamilton | person | NCAA tournament player who beat Todd's University of Washington team as a 2-seed, hit the game-winning shot, went on to successful NBA career | | Larry Brown | person | Hall of Fame basketball coach who coached Todd, taught him about managing expectations over a long season | | Eden Stam | person | Tall pinball player from Canada known for good play | | Lyman Sheets | person | Pinball player known for getting low to the playfield, different stance techniques | | Bill Wennington | person | Canadian basketball player who played for the Bulls, known for his height | | Final Round Pinball Podcast | organization | Long-running pinball podcast hosted by Jeff Teolis and others, features interviews and community discussion | | University of Washington | organization | Todd McCulloch's college basketball team, made Sweet 16 in 1998 NCAA tournament | | New Jersey Nets | organization | NBA team Todd signed with, where he began his pinball collecting hobby | | IFPA | organization | International Flipper Pinball Association, organizes competitive pinball tournaments and rankings | | Whitewater | game | Classic pinball machine Todd grew up with during summers, one of his first machines purchased | | Pinbot | game | Classic pinball machine Todd grew up with during his childhood, one of his first machines purchased | | Medieval Madness | game | Pinball machine Todd played in college and later purchased, was affordable at the time | | Creature from the Black Lagoon | game | Pinball machine Todd played in doubles tournament with Bowen Cairns | | Pinburgh | event | Major pinball tournament that Todd attended regularly | | PAPA | event | Major pinball tournament that Todd attended regularly (no longer happening as mentioned) | | Texas Pinball Festival | event | Major pinball event Todd attended regularly, where his perspective on tournaments shifted | | March Madness | event | NCAA college basketball tournament, Todd discussed its significance and his experience competing in it | ### Topics - **Primary:** Canadian stereotypes and identity, Todd McCulloch's basketball career and NCAA tournament experience, Competitive pinball tournament play and psychology, Managing pressure and adrenaline in competition - **Secondary:** Height challenges in pinball and sports, March Madness and college basketball, Pinball collecting and ownership, Transitioning from competitive sports to recreational play ### Sentiment **Neutral** (0) ### Signals - **[community_signal]** Final Round Podcast Episode 29 features an extended interview with Todd McCulloch, a prominent figure in the Canadian pinball community, establishing him as a notable community personality and bridge between NBA history and pinball culture. (confidence: high) — The entire episode structure shows Todd as a featured guest discussing his background, pinball philosophy, and tournament experiences - **[competitive_signal]** Todd McCulloch has been a competitive pinball player since ~2006 with IFPA rankings peaking at 85th, and has won at least one Expo tournament, establishing him as a mid-tier competitive player in the community. (confidence: high) — Todd stated 'I think the highest I've ever been is 85th' and 'I did win Expo one year' - **[competitive_signal]** Discussion of how elite pinball players like Bowen Cairns use psychological techniques (e.g., misdirection, process focus over results) to manage tournament pressure, contrasting with traditional sports psychology methods. (confidence: high) — Detailed anecdote about Bowen Cairns deceiving Todd into hitting a shot by obscuring its importance, and discussion of how visualization and sports psychology didn't transfer directly to pinball - **[design_philosophy]** Todd expresses preference for playing full games casually rather than breaking down games into component practice (like the Sharp brothers do), suggesting different philosophical approaches to skill development in pinball. (confidence: high) — Todd: 'If I have to disassemble this game down to its elements, I'm not interested. I wanted to keep it whole and pure.' - **[community_signal]** Todd's perspective on tournament play evolved from pure competitive focus to balancing competition with broader community experience, influenced by peers like Ed Robertson at Texas Pinball Festival. (confidence: high) — Todd described how Ed Robertson redirected him to enjoy the full festival experience when his tournament run ended poorly - **[operational_signal]** Discussion of how physical factors (height, standing vs. sitting, posture) affect tournament performance, with larger players facing challenges with standard machine heights and extended standing during matches. (confidence: high) — Todd discussed problems with posture, standing vs. sitting consistency, and difficulty using inflatable furniture during tournaments due to his height - **[competitive_signal]** Pinball tournaments have significant thinking/waiting time between balls that can negatively affect player psychology, unlike fast-paced basketball where action is continuous. (confidence: high) — Discussion of how waiting time and watching other players can lead to overthinking and second-guessing during pinball tournaments - **[collector_signal]** Todd's entry into pinball machine ownership began during his NBA career with the New Jersey Nets, establishing a pattern of athlete collectors drawn to classic titles from their childhood. (confidence: high) — Todd purchased Whitewater, Pinbot, and Medieval Madness based on nostalgia and affordability when he signed with the Nets - **[community_signal]** Todd McCulloch represents an interesting intersection of NBA celebrity and pinball community, potentially bridging mainstream sports culture with niche pinball interest. (confidence: medium) — Entire episode premise centers on Todd as a former NBA player active in pinball community, with hosts treating this as noteworthy cultural bridge - **[content_signal]** Final Round Pinball Podcast hosts make a joking reference to having 20,000 listeners, though they acknowledge this is fictional, suggesting the show has grown audience but actual listenership numbers are unknown. (confidence: medium) — Jeff said: 'Good thing we didn't tell Todd before we started. There are 20,000 people listening to this podcast right now. He might get nervous, Marty' followed by 'Those are impressive numbers. Good job, fellas. They are impressive, fictitious numbers.' --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. a lot of bullshit and I think you're to blame for it, Marty. Which part in particular? The editing? Forget the editing. It's your absolute nonsensical, stereotypical Canadian crap that you said, I say about, about, or sorry, sorry, all that kind of garbage. And the emails that we got, we'll get to those later. But I'm just, personally, I'm sick of the Canadian stereotypes. I'm putting my foot down. No more of that. We're not all redheads. We're not all great pinball players. We're not all born on January 27th. We're not all broadcasters. We're not all great athletes. I mean, I know that's me. And to prove it, let's bring on another Canadian on the show right now. Let's say hello to you know him, you love him, former NBA star Todd McCulloch. Hey, Todd, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? So Marty's been giving you a hard time, huh? It's not just me. I mentioned the fact. He was saying last week, oh, you know, I don't say a boot. And I went, well, you do. And then let's just say the feedback has been overwhelming. And on which side has it been, Jeff? I don't know. I'm sure we'll get to that later. The point is that not all Canadians are redheads. Todd? Oh. I used to be a redhead, and then I had kids, and now I'm a grayhead. Okay. I'm born on January 27th. We have 365 days in the year. You certainly can't be that as well, being a Canadian, right? January 27th, the best day of the year, Year of the Dragon. Okay, I guess that's both of us. Great pinball players. I know I've been in IFPA championships. You've actually hosted them. I hosted it. You're way ahead of me in the rankings. I think the highest I've ever been is 85th, but I did win Expo one year, so I got that little notch in my bedpost. Yep, you've done a lot of broadcasting in your post-NBA career as well. Great athletes. I mean, maybe we are all alike. It's hard to say. All 30 million of us, everybody. All the same. The question I do want to ask you, because you're actually living in the States. I'm here in Canada. The vaccines are rolling out very, very well in the United States. And good, because, you know, obviously they had a lot of cases. I think that's fantastic. They secure it a lot. They manufacture a lot. Here in Canada, where you don't live anymore, I mean, I don't know the last time you've been to Winnipeg. I might, fingers crossed, get my vaccine in September. How about you there in Washington State? Just waiting our turn. And I think just the other day, teachers were cleared. So they're getting through people. They're doing a really good job. They've opened it up and now pharmacies are carrying them and they're getting in greater and greater shipments each week. And they're starting to hit their stride. And so now educators involved in schools are now being vaccinated. And so they're starting to check people off the list, which is really exciting. And the quicker it goes, the better off we're all going to be. my last point on this topic and i'm not going to get into who do i have to fuck to get a vaccine although maybe it will come down to that but i think i'm absolutely the last person on the list am i crying about it no no no no not at all i'll be glad when you get your vaccine and then we're all playing in a pinberg not necessarily pinberg but a pinberg type tournament somewhere down the down the line and maybe we can all end up in the same group together so speaking of tournaments I've looked at your IFPO profile not to see if you are ranked higher than Jeff. That's not important anymore. Definitely not. Definitely not. I can see that you have been playing in tournaments for a very long time. Like I think this goes back to 2006, right? Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, about 15 years or so. So how, therefore, has it affected you now not being able to play in tournaments? Do you sort of get frustrated by it or are you sort of a bit patient and when it happens, it happens? I'm excited to do it. I've been definitely missing it. I haven't been playing even pre-COVID. I haven't been playing in as many tournaments. My kids are 13 and next week my son will turn 11. And I think just with their activities and just trying to be the best dad, I haven't been going or playing in as many pinball tournaments when they were around. So I guess I was a little bit used to the rhythm of life of, you know, going to a couple of big tournaments a year, obviously Pinberg and Papa when it was happening, the Northwest Show, Texas Pinball Festival. So I was still making it to some great tournaments. And I think I just kind of had a focus shift a little bit. I usually go to Expo, and tournaments used to be the most important thing to me at a convention. And if it was, say, the Texas Pinball Festival and there was a small little tournament area, I would spend the whole weekend there just buying entries and trying to make the finals and sort of ignoring the 400 other amazing games on the show. And I think it was Ed Ed Robertson and some other friends of mine who kind of helped me change my perspective. And while I still love to compete, I think I was missing out on so much more of it. And so a couple of years ago at Texas, I played very poorly and it came down on my last entry. And if I'd done well, I had a chance to make the finals and I blew it. And Ed Ed Robertson came up to me and said, how's the tournament going? I said, it's going terrible. And he's like, so you're free for lunch? And I said, yeah, I guess I am. And he's like, since you're out, I guess you're also free for dinner. And I said, you know what? Maybe this is okay. So tournaments have taken a little bit of a backseat, and maybe that was the result of me not playing well in those opportunities I had. But I guess I just tried to take in the whole pinball experience and the social aspect of it instead of just trying to make the finals. And I'm one of those players. I'm a good player, but I'm not a great player. And back when there was less players, I would just be that person struggling for the last spot of the finals, whether there were 16 finalists or 24. I'd be the last one in if I'd gotten in, and then I'd usually end up playing the number one qualifier, and then I'd be knocked out. So if I did make the playoffs, I didn't go much further than that. Do you find it harder having the pinball machine so far away from you compared to everybody else? That is a good question. People have asked me whether I thought height was an advantage, and I don't. Eden Stam is one of the best tall players that I know out of Canada. I think you look at the stance that Lyman Sheets takes sometimes, where he gets down to the line of the ball. And when I play at home, I sit on a bar stool just to kind of take it easy on my feet. And I think it might be a disadvantage that in tournaments I'm always standing. And I think if you want to get really good at pinball, you should probably stick to one angle of the play field. And so 90% of the playing I do at home, I'm sitting down and then I go to tournaments and I'm standing. And that'll be my excuse for why I've been doing so badly. So I don't think height is an advantage. I think the machines are built for your average-sized person. And I think my back gets a little bit sore hunched over or I've got to get a wide stance in order to try and get my hands down to the flipper area. I do agree. And I'm obviously not even close to being your height, but when you play long tournaments and it's a grind, it's a grind, you're not exactly standing proper. Maybe you're hunched over just a little bit. It gets sore, and you certainly feel it by the end of the day, especially if you're standing on cement. So the old Pintberg days were just you'd look for a chair and a couch, and I'd be like, oh, I'd much rather have this than a few inlanes. Yeah, I'd try and find that inflatable couch, but it was so low to the ground, I was like a beached whale trying to get out of that thing. So I think I ended up missing a round at some point because I couldn't get off the inflatable couch. Just to confirm, my understanding is you are 7 foot tall. Is that right? 6'11 and 13'16. So just a shade under. 5'24, 6'12. Let's round it up. Wear thick socks, for crying out loud. It was one of those things. Because I know someone that was tall that wasn't into basketball. But all his life, he just got asked, do you play basketball? And I'm wondering, is that something that you grew up with? Or was it, oh, I really want to have a career in pinball, but, you know, basketball pays a bit more money? People were, they would always ask, but I've, you know, I played up until my career ended. So the answer was always yes. And there's a Canadian basketball player named Bill Wennington who played for the Bulls. And people used to say to him, you know, I thought I was tall. He's like, yeah, I thought I was ugly. I had a lady once, she said, do you play basketball? And I said, why do you play mini golf? And she got really pissed at me. She put up her hand to slap me, and I said, don't slap me for that. People say all sorts of weird stuff. I was in line at a cafeteria, and a guy turned around. He's like, you should wear a cowbell so you don't sneak up on people. Sneak up on people? You block out the sun. Can't they see the shadow from a mile away? I used to have a T-shirt that said, I'm 6'10". Yes, I play basketball, and the Carl Weathers's fine up here. And change your own fucking light bulb. Yeah, you hear some interesting stuff. I was at the grocery store, and there was an old man in front of me. He had a couple of tall boy beers, and I respected that. He turned around and was surprised at my height. And he's like, wow, you must have been an interesting baby. Just like, I don't know how interesting I was. I didn't come out smoking cigars going, I am the most interesting baby in the world. I usually prefer breast milk, but I drink whiskey. You know what sucks about being tall is that you miss that whole growing up experience of all the ginger insults. Yeah, I don't think anyone wanted to insult. I was just bigger than everybody. So even though I wasn't tough, they were afraid I'd sit on them. So I didn't get teased too much, which is good. Did you have it hard as a ginger growing up in Canada where you teased a lot, Jeff? Oh, you have no idea. I mean, it's just heaven forbid I ever go to eat lunch at Wendy's because, I mean, people will just mock you for that. Oh, how's your sister? Anyway, I found that it made my skin a lot tougher and made me kind of more on edge. Okay, if I'm going to take it, I better be able to dish it out too to go tit for tat. Yeah. You got to be able to throw it back at people. Absolutely. It's funny because I like to talk to you this time of year. I like to talk to you all the time, but especially this time of year because of something known as March Madness. Now, Marty has no clue what March Madness is. Of course I do. This is college football. No, it's not. Is it? It's not. No, but this is where everybody puts their brackets in and then see what happens. You said college football. It's college basketball. Well, it's college something. I know it's not the main grade, but it's college something. Yeah, but I know. Sure, basketball, football, same. People put their brackets in, and I don't know. You can win lots of money if you get it right. I don't know. Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Todd, you know what March Madness is in Australia? It's kangaroo mating season. That's when the good old boys like to have a little bit of fun with old Roo, you know? You don't believe me? Marty, why haven't you been streaming? Because it's March Madness, all right? You've been busy, haven't you? Admit it. Sure, Jeff, if that's what makes you feel better. Oh, cut deep. Don't you be talking about our kangaroos like that. I love them. So March Madness, a lot of people, I would say, especially this side of the border and maybe outside the world, maybe don't really watch as much college basketball. Certainly someone like Todd has a vested interest in that and some great history as well. But when it comes time to this bracket thing that you're talking about, Martin, yeah, it's a lot of fun. It's time to bet. You know, you don't have to know anything. You just look at the numbers. You can check on all websites and see, oh, this team's good on defense or good on three-point shooting, blah, blah. You can kind of try to figure it out yourself. Who cares? You pick a team. You make a bracket. It's fun. You follow along. It makes the games a little more interesting and a lot of office pools and things like that. But we didn't actually have a March Madness last year because of COVID, so I think this year is going to be a little more special. I don't know how you feel about it, Todd. Yeah, I would say it was really, really weird and strange to not have it. I mean, the tournament's been going on for so long. And when I was at the University of Washington, our whole goal was to get to the NCAA tournament. And it's what we fought hard. It's what we went to practice for every day. And we ended up getting there. And it was just sort of the culmination of everything that we put into. And to not have it last year, you know, as someone who's played in the tournament, I personally, I think it's the best sporting event in the world. And I'm a little bit biased because of the exposure I've had to college basketball and the experiences I've had. But I'm obviously not the only one that enjoys it. And I think you can pick the best mascot that would win in a fight. You can pick from the school colors. You can pick from the states you like. So you can do just well in those pools. I've played in the NCAA tournament twice, and I'm always last in every pool I always play in. So it's never a formula for success. But it's just such a special thing. It's one and done, and you can just get hot. And to not have it last year was very strange. and one more indicator that the world was just not right. So I'm glad that we're going to be back, and I really think it's anybody's year. I mean, if there's ever a year for somebody to sneak up and win it, this is going to be the one. So I can't wait to watch it this year. I think there'll be a lot of interest. Outside of March Madness, does the college basketball sort of scene get as much airplay as the NBA throughout the year, or is it really only March Madness? College basketball is big. It's probably not as big as the NBA, with that being such a major sport. But there's 82 games in a regular season of the NBA, and there's maybe a maximum of 30 in a collegiate season. So there's less games, so it's probably on TV less. But you've got certain universities and conferences that draw very well. And I think the ratings for college basketball in some conferences is quite high. So there is a lot of interest. And there's some people that just prefer college athletics to the pros. And because there's only 30 games, every one of them counts. And so there's a lot of interest in college basketball. And it's been pretty fun. But I tend to wait until the tournament to – that's when it really, really matters, when you lose once and it's time to go home. And there's only one winner at the end of it. It's very – it's special. We made it to the Sweet 16 in 1998. And our university was going crazy. And people to this day still come up to me and tell me how special that team was. and everybody remembers, I mean, we had just the buzzer beaters are what make it so special, and you, of course, want to end up on the winning side of that. Our first game, we won by a point, and it could have gone either way, and we were on the right side of it. And then the second game, we ended up doing quite a bit better. And then the third game, we had only one lead in the game with 20 seconds left. We took our first lead, and it looked like we were going to upset, as an 11-seed, a number two-seeded team. and they got about four shots at the end of the basketball game. It's pretty exciting. And if you're lucky, you might get one or two chances to tie it up or win. And there was a mad scramble and they took about four shots in the last few seconds and I could not get a rebound. And they made it. And it was a heartbreaker for us. And there's still fans in this region that still remember just how tough it was to lose like that. But when you take a step back, it was a great success for our team and the season was a big success. but it's hard to separate that in the moment. And then every year they keep showing all of these highlights that happened about some of the best buzzer beaters, and it's always in there. Was that Rip Hamilton? That was Rip Hamilton, and no surprise that he hit a clutch shot. He went on to an incredible NBA career and a great guy, so no surprise that he was able to make a fall-away jump shot at the free throw line. But there was a lot of pressure in that situation, and he stepped up big time, and they would not quit until the buzzer went off. And I couldn't believe the buzzer hadn't gone off. You see teams get a chance or two, and they were really scrambling, and they got it to go. I don't know if this makes up for that loss, but playing poker at a casino in Motor City, I took $500 off Rip Hamilton. Is it even? Does that help, Todd? Every little bit helps, so thank you. I appreciate you doing that. That's wonderful. Thank you. But to what Marty was saying about the popularity of the sport, too, it really depends on where you are. And we're going to get into pinball, but just one last note about this basketball thing. In North Carolina, they have an NBA team, but that doesn't matter. It's all about Duke and UNC. And then you've got places like Kentucky and Kansas where they don't have NBA teams, and it's all about college basketball. So it's a fun time of year for sure. And if you have a chance to do a bracket, even if it's free, even if it's online, do it, because it's a lot of fun, and you will find yourself interested. What I like about college basketball, and I want to talk about this as far as adrenaline and sports and pinball. What I like about college basketball, more so than the pros, is just the eagerness of the kids playing. Like this might be their last game because they won't all go on to be pros. Just the passion of every shot, every play. They're all into it. And it's not always skilled play, but it's just that excitement. And it kind of does remind me of, you know, the first time you're doing pinball competitions, too. You're used to playing at home or in your leagues, a little more casual. You get into pinball, and all of a sudden the adrenaline starts going. and you're like, I can't make this shot. What's going on? Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. I think that's the great pinball players are able to play like it's in their basement. And I, you know, Bowen Kerins and Keith Elwin, these guys are just cool cats on the big stage when the time comes that I would, you know, when I first got into competitive pinball, I thought that I would have an advantage. I was sort of naive and thinking, you know what, I have a unique sports background. I've played in the NBA finals. I would regularly play in front of 20,000 screaming fans and I can handle the pressure in this little pinball tournament to win, you know, 50 bucks is not going to rattle me. And here I'd be hands sweating, getting all nervous, hearts beating, I'm freaking out and I would drain and it would drive me nuts that the, the mechanisms and the muscle memory and all of the techniques that I developed for basketball went completely out the window for, for pinball tournaments. And I think Bowen and I were, were teammates one time in a doubles tournament. And usually no one can really talk to you while you're playing but in this you know the rules of this where your partner can say anything to you they can coach you and having somebody like Bowen that was a rules expert and just a you know a great motivator and a great teammate I think we were playing Creatures in Black Lagoon and and he was telling me okay Todd shoot the snack bar three times I need you to hit the snack bar three times and so I said okay routinely I've got to hit it three times and I should have known subconsciously that there's you don't need to shoot that three times in a row but I did the first one was just no big deal. And I hit it and it was a super jackpot and we won the match. And I was like, you lied to me. And he's like, if I told you, hey, this is a big shot, hit it. We're going to win or we're going to lose. I'd get all nervous and I'd miss the shot. And he just he tricked my brain and say, hey, we need three sack bars, get the first one. And that was the end of the match. And so I think those great players do that for themselves and they find a way to de-emphasize those moments. And it's the same in basketball. You know, you've had all this time shooting a ball into a room the same size and you've got to keep it in perspective. And while you understand the importance of the moment, you don't let it overwhelm you somehow. And you still play like you're having fun. Good thing we didn't tell Todd before we started. There are 20,000 people listening to this podcast right now. He might get nervous, Marty. Those are impressive numbers. Good job, fellas. They are impressive, fictitious numbers. The hobby is growing, isn't it? So were you always into pinball, like growing up before basketball, or did it happen during or after? I've always been into pinball longer than I was into basketball. I was born in 1976, and as soon as I was old enough to be in an arcade or to go to the roller skating rink or go to the bowling alley, and there was pinball machines, and I had 50 cents in my pocket, I was playing it. And I used to, there's like a church group that I think after church and Bible study, we would go to the bowling alley. And I think there were three kids and one instructor. And when it was my turn to bowl, I would throw, you know, in Canada, I think we had five pin bowling and three balls. And I would throw them all down the lane as quickly as possible, not caring what I hit. And then I would run to the arcade and play pinball. And inevitably, if I was having a good game, it would get around to my turn. And they're like, where is Todd? He's never here. He's always playing pinball. Why do we even bowl with him? And so even as long as I can remember, I would rather play pinball than almost do anything else. And when I signed with the Nets in New Jersey, we bought a house with an empty finished basement, and I found out that you could own pinball machines. And I said, I would like a Whitewater, please, because that's the game I grew up with sort of in my summers. And I would like a Pinbot because that's the game I grew up with. And I would like a Medieval Madness because they were affordable and nobody was really into them back then. And that's the game I played in college. And those got delivered to my house. And it was just my wife and I, no kids at the time. And now I'm not a college student anymore, so I don't have to study. I'm a professional basketball player. And my job on a non-game day is probably between 11 in the afternoon until 2. So I had a lot of downtime. So I came home and just played pinball. And I thought, there must be something wrong with me because this is all I want to do. And I'm sick and I need help. And then all I did instead of getting help is I found other people that like to do that as well. And I realized there was safety in numbers. And I realized I wasn't the only pinaholic. And that's how it all started for me in terms of collecting. But I've loved the game since I was just a little guy. And obviously, you've excelled in it, too. In fact, you really got into competitive pinball. Martin said that it was 2006. So that's shortly after your NBA career. And I wonder when you play pinball and going from high-level competition in the NBA to whatever high-level competition pinball tournaments are, but still it's competition you mentioned about being nervous. I would assume in college, in the pros, at some point you dealt with sports psychologists and maybe some reading on how to get that edge or be competitive. I'm wondering what some of these great books or techniques are that might carry over to pinball. Yeah, we definitely had. By the way, when you answer this, I'm going to cut this out so no one can hear it so that I can absorb this myself. It'll be just for me and Marty. That's it. No one will get to hear this. So I hope I remember to cut this out. Go ahead. Yeah, we had access to a sports psychologist. And I think it was kind of a growing science. And people were realizing that you could really gain a big advantage. You know, I think they did a big study about someone that actually physically maybe shot 100 free throws a day and somebody that just visualized doing it. And I think they ended up with similar results. And so there was just a lot of people that realized that the visualization and relaxation and goal setting and really thinking about the game from a mental aspect could really help you in your career. And so those are the sorts of things that I thought would help me in pinball tournaments. And they really didn't. So I had to learn a whole new skill set about just trying to have fun and not worry about the results and focus on the process and all the great coaches I've had all along the lines. I mean, there were 82 games in an NBA season. You're going to lose some. You're not going to win them all. And our coach, Larry Brown, who's a Hall of Fame coach, would sometimes we just didn't have it. And he'd come in and say, okay, guys, you know, we're not going to win every game and every season we're going to have a couple stinkers like that. Let's just come back tomorrow and get back to work. And so I think all the great ones focus on the process as opposed to the results. And usually those results take care of themselves. And so I think with pinball, you know, I've always wanted to be good. But I think more importantly, I've just wanted to have fun. And the Sharp brothers, of course, have, you know, grown up to be a couple of the best players in the world. And I think I had asked them, like, how do you guys get better? What do you do? And at some point, I think they said, well, you can take the glass off and you can work on your drop catches and you can do reps. And I said, nope, not interested. If I have to disassemble this game down to its elements, I'm not interested. And so I just want to play a full game in my basement with my friends. And if I get better doing that, great. If I don't, I didn't want to distill the game down to its elements. I wanted to keep it whole and pure. And that's the way I've kept it as a fun activity. That's interesting what you said about Larry Brown, the great coach, who said, you know, after a stinker game, you let it go. We've got 82 in a season. So in pinball, I see a lot of people, I've been guilty myself of having a terrible ball and letting that get at me so that it affects the next two balls. And you talked about some of these cool, calm players that just nothing phases them. That's a real asset to be able to forget the bad ball and even forget the good ball, too, because there's another ball. There's another game. Yeah, I think that's the secret is just really keeping that in perspective and not letting one mistake lead to the next one. Then also, you know, I feel like I've played in some tournaments where I've had a good ball one and maybe taken my foot off the gas a little bit thinking, you know, I've got this in the bag and just to see people storm back. And so I think there's lessons to be learned about leaving something behind. There's, you know, there's really nothing I can do about yesterday and I can't do anything about ball three yet. so I'm on ball too, this is the one I need to focus on. And I'm trying to build up the lead and never really taking your foot on the gas because if your opponent has a ball left, I've seen people just blow up games. And so there's been some times where I think I've let people creep up thinking that I had a safe lead that just did not turn out to be that safe. So that the thing with tournaments is you have your ball and then you got time to think And that thinking time can really help or hinder your game Not only because you're reflecting on what you've just done, whether it's good or bad, you're then watching other people. And let's say you do ball one, you have this fantastic ball and you're on top of the world. The next player comes along and has an even better ball that can then play on your mind as well. So because you've got that time in between balls, there's too much thinking time to start getting in your head. And I know this may surprise you to hear this, that I wasn't an elite athlete. I know. Put your jaws off the ground. I know. I know. It's going to surprise everyone. I'm shocked to hear that. I was told that when you came on this program. This is bullshit. Zach. Zach Manning. New host. But I have played sport in my time. I played football for 12 years. But anyway, just don't hold that against me. but in basketball, because it is such a fast-paced game, the action is happening then and there. So you've still got the adrenaline, you've still got the reflexes, you've still got the action that's happening. You can still get in your head. The problem with pinball is you've got more time to actually reflect and that can make things worse. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that was part of my problem trying to use skills that I'd acquired in basketball is the game dynamics are very different. And in basketball, when you're on the court, you really don't have time to dwell on it and you have to constantly forget about a turnover or a missed shot. I mean, some of the best shooters in the NBA, one of my friends, Kyle Corbett, he just retired after a 17-year NBA career in which I think he's the fourth all-time in three-pointers made, like literally one of the best shooters of all time. And guys like that, if you miss a couple shots, you can't lose confidence. You know that you're a shooter, you've got to keep shooting and you might have an off night, but you start to get in your head and it can just mess with you. And so the nice thing about basketball is there's a chance for instant redemption. And I do find it interesting in different games. You mentioned football. I'm thinking maybe you, you know, in our country here, you know, we've got the American football. And I think if you have a turnover as a quarterback and it ends up in a touchdown to the other team, you've got to sit on the sidelines and stew and you don't have a chance to get right back on the field. And you have to think about it. And I think the good quarterbacks are able to forget about it and come out and set up compounding. In basketball, if you make a mistake or a turnover, you have a chance to redeem yourself almost immediately. If you miss a shot, you can go get the rebound. If you miss a shot, you can go back on defense and try and get a stop. So I think that's one of the things I liked about the game was this, you know, in pinball we have instant feedback. You see that score going up, things are happening. And in basketball, you just try and keep putting that ball through the hoop and you get an instant satisfaction of knowing I'm scoring points, I'm going up. And I think when you sit the bench in basketball, that's when your mind starts to get into it. So when you're in the game, it's the easy part. When you're on the bench, not knowing if you're going to play, not being a starter. I think there was one stretch where maybe I sat out for 10 or 15 games. And by the time the coach put me in 10 or 15 games later, I had kind of lost my confidence. I had lost my rhythm. I didn't know what to do in the game. And I went in with the wrong attitude. I went in with the attitude, okay, this is my chance. I can't screw up. I have to go in and not make any mistakes. And I was so concerned with not making a mistake that I didn't. I wasn't proactive. I wasn't aggressive. I wasn't attacking the defense, trying to make them make mistakes. And going out there, trying not to fail was a huge difference from going out there and trying to win and trying to put pressure on them. And so I learned that lesson the hard way. And I realized I can't go in there just trying to, you know, trying to stay out of people's way and not make a mistake. I've got to go use my will to try and force the contact and make it happen. And so I think in pinball, you're absolutely right, where you can really be negatively affected if you are watching somebody crush a machine. And normally, if you weren't concerned with what they were doing, I think you might be able to step up, play your own game and let the cards fall where they may. But I think you can really psych yourself out by seeing somebody do really well. And so I think some players maybe use music to tune out what their opponent's doing. I've seen top-level players take a walk and not sit there and watch. I mean, I think there's some, you know, I know I'm guilty of this. Sometimes you'll watch an opponent and you might be in your head saying, drain, left. You know, you see it go through the out lane and you're kind of hoping for it. But I think sometimes that negative energy kind of comes back to bite you and you get some pinball karma. Yeah, what a dick move. We all do it. Who would do that? Who would do it? I've had success at pinball in my short little time. You know, I've won major tournaments here in Canada, in the U.S., another country, too. Where do you live, Marty? Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because you have seen people from all over the world, in fact, at your own home, when you hosted the IFPA World Championship, which is pretty cool. For those that don't know, I think you said to Josh, okay, so if I host, I get a free entry. And he's like, no, you've got to earn it. And then you won Pinball Expo to get you in. And so it was legitimate. But there's no free host spot. You know, it's not like the Olympics. I feel like the host country, you know, gets an automatic bid in a lot of sports. And I was hoping this would be like the pinball Olympics. And then Josh and Zach would just let me play. And I found out two months before that that was not the case. And so I think I was ranked 246 or something. And I had to get up to about 105th in two months. And they told me to get off my ass and start playing well. Otherwise, I'm going to be hosting this tournament with no chance of playing. And so I think it was that incentive and that motivation that, you know, never say die attitude where I went into Expo not, you know, I would have loved to have won it, but I just needed to play well. I needed to finish well. And I took, you know, everything very seriously. And somehow I was able to win that tournament. I'm still not sure how that happened. I know Wheel of Fortune happened. And that's a game that not everybody loves. I happen to love it. And I've still got mine. and that the bottom of that game, not being an Italian bottom, is kind of unique and different. And so every time I lost game one of a best of three, I evened the score on Wheel of Fortune against every opponent that I played. And fortunately, there were two Trons in the tournament. There was a Tron LE and a Tron regular, and those were considered separate entities. So if you picked one Tron, that didn't discourage you or eliminate you from picking the other one. And Tron was the latest game to come out. It had come out in, I'd gotten mine in June, and Expo was in October, and I loved it so much and still do that I played it basically exclusively for all those months leading up to Expo. And so I had a lot of success on Tron because I think it's a fantastic game. But it's interesting when you play a game that you're familiar with, especially for the rules, and you play a different version of it. It's not the one in your basement or your home. The shots might be a little bit different. The angle might be a little different. The flippers might be aligned a little different. The tilts, all that kind of stuff, it's not necessarily an advantage. you're comfortable because you know the rules, but those shots that I know what's here on the flipper, oh, it's not on this machine. There's a lot of truth to that, and so you might go into it thinking, I know this game, and I think sometimes you're better off playing a game that you just don't have a bias for, thinking where the shots are going to be and then having to learn them and sometimes have some painful lessons where you've got some drains that happen, and I think if you go into a game you don't know, you're just playing it as it comes and you're not thinking about having to make adjustments. And so when I hosted the World Championships here, it was an honor, and it was a very cool experience. And I think I had all the modern pinballs that I needed, and I didn't have all the sort of 70s and 80s games that I needed, and I didn't have the 50s and 60s games. So friends of mine brought those over, and so while you'd think I might have some sort of home court advantage, the 50s through 80s games were all sort of new to me, and my modern games, a couple of friends had volunteered their time to rebuild my flippers, change the flipper rubbers, move the posts around, and so they did not play the friendly way that I was used to them playing in my basement. And that's my excuse for not doing well at the World Championships here at my house. But I think, by and large, people had a good time here, and I wanted to show people a good time. And if they were going to take their vacation time from Finland and Norway and Germany and Britain and Australia and fly here on their dime, I wanted to make sure that they left and had a good time. And I think overall, people enjoyed the weekend they spent here. I also find when I'm in tournaments and I'm up against a machine that I have, people look at me and go, oh, you're going to do so well because you've got this machine. And I have to explain every time that that's actually not the case. I do know the rule and the shots backwards, but invariably, I actually do lose more often on machines that I own at home because of that difference. And you've got a large collection. That's probably going to put you more of a disadvantage than most. Yeah. Once a year, I host the Seattle Pinball League, and a number of Seattle players come over here. And I think on my fun house, there was like a nine-way tie, and I think the top eight advanced. And I thought, well, I'm in. And I think I got ninth out of nine people on my own funhouse. And it kind of ticked me off a little bit that, you know, you think it's going to be an advantage when you have the games. And I lost once in a tournament in Stern's NBA, and people got a laugh that I got beat in the NBA. But that's going to happen. Well, I was actually going to ask that, whether you do own either Stern NBA or NBA Fastbreak. I have Stern NBA, and I really like it. I'm operating it at a local pizza place here, And a friend of mine as a president, he's got, well, we both have a friend that's a graphic artist. So for my birthday, he went to work on the Backglass. And it has, you know, amazing players on there, Hall of Famers like Allen Iverson and Yao Ming and Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard and just these incredible players. And then my Backglass has me on it. So he worked his magic and he made some room and he took an action shot of me and put it up on the glass. So I have the only NBA, certain NBA with Todd McCulloch on the Backglass, which is, you know, a fraud. but it's a lot of fun. And on my Wheel of Fortune, my Maria's bobblehead fell off and I happened to have a Todd McCulloch bobblehead laying around here. So my friend was able to doctor it up and put a Todd McCulloch bobblehead on the Maria's body. So my Wheel of Fortune has a Todd Mack head on it. So some custom mods, but I really like Stern's NBA and it's tricky to get to the wizard mode. It's not impossible, but for the longest time, I couldn't do it or I hadn't done it. and the wizard mode is called the NBA Finals, and I said, this is bullshit. It's harder to get to the NBA Finals in this game than it is in real life. I've been twice in real life, and I can't do it on this damn game. But since then, I've been able to get to it, and it's a great game. I love it. Marty, do you see what Todd did there? It's a brilliant move, and a lot of athletes who are used to talking to the media do that, where they throw out something that makes you want to question it, but they don't end there. They keep on talking so that hopefully the broadcaster won't remember what they said. But I actually wrote this down. You picked up on it. Todd said he had his picture on his back glass, and he has a bobblehead on the Wheel of Fortune game. I was just going to say, he's got a bobblehead. Yeah. So thanks for helping the modest image of Canadians, Todd. Appreciate that. Fuck. All right. I'll send you a bobblehead. It's fine. It's fine. I mean, Jeff and I are so proud that we have our trading cards. We ain't got a bobblehead, though. Wait till the sponsor of the week. Okay, Todd, you talked about your Wheel of Fortune with the bobblehead. That's great. I know you mentioned Tron. These are some of the games you like, too. We're doing this little thing. You're going to be able to see it on our social media about overrated pinball machines. So obviously you're not going to include those. But what are some of the games? Because you've been operating for a long time. You've played a lot of games. You certainly have a big collection. What is the game or games that you think, I just don't get it? These are overrated. I was listening to the segment on your last one, and I think there was a good point there about, is it overrated or are they overpriced? And so I would have to say some of the games are overpriced. But in terms of overrated, I don't know. He knows all the designers. He's afraid to throw them under the bus. Do it. There's that. I'm thinking about part of it is I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. And part of it is I'm just such a lover of pinball. and I just think, you know, pretty recently and in the last little while, there's just been so many hits, you know, so many great games that I'll play one game and say, oh, this is the best game ever and I'll go to the next one. So I'm a pretty easy audience in terms of, so it's hard for me to be negative about any of these machines. Go back a few years then if you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Come on. I don't love Shaq Attack. It's not my favorite game, so you know, I don't want to tell that to Shaq, but that's not my favorite game. And he's a great player and a great opponent, but I don't love that one. Not that it's overrated. It's funny that you bring that up because I look at pinball machines. There are a ton of old games that have some sort of card or poker theme. There's a lot of games that have pool. But actually, there's a ton with basketball. Marty mentioned NBA Fast Break. There's the NBA game. There's also, obviously, Harlem Globetrotters. There's hoops. You just mentioned Shaq Attack. The Space Jam. There's a lot of basketball games. Space Jam, I was about to say. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's a sport that's stood the test of time, and it makes sense to, you know, have a ball go through a hoop. So, you know, I think the fast break is pretty fun when you link it together. I'm a big proponent of having people play head-to-head and in pinball. That's been very challenging. I've got a Joust pinball machine here. I love to see people playing that. I love to have people play, you know, multiple, you know, head-to-head games. I love how the Turtles has a, you know, you can always go, you know, one for one. You can go two versus two. You can go three against one. If you have a great player in your group, you can all play together. So I love any way that these games can be made more social. I have a TNA, that's, you know, Total Nuclear Annihilation. That's one of my favorite games. I got, you know, if I used to have friends come over, we would all play together and try and take down nine reactors. And I'm constantly trying to introduce new people to pinball. It's fun when I have pinballers over because they, you know, I don't have to explain to them how special these games are. You guys know, obviously, we're on a podcast right now, but I'm always trying to bring in new people. And often when I used to invite them, they would say, oh, I suck at pinball. You're just going to kill me. I won't be any competition. And I said, I don't care how good you are. I just want you to come and have a good time. And look at my face on the back glass. That's what you say. Look at my bobblehead. Check out how awesome I am. And so I'm always, I think they feel if I play like a two-player game, game, they feel like I'm looking over their shoulder or that somehow we're competing and they're letting me down or they feel frustrated by the game. And that's the last thing I want. And so when you have a game like TNA or Turtles where you can play together and be inclusive and say, hey, we're on the same team, we're not competing, then people are very much less reluctant to join in if they can be a part of the team as opposed to feeling like they're going to be bad at pinball and somehow feel like I'm watching them just to try and give them some pointers, but I think they feel like I'm judging them, which is just not the case. I just want them to love the game the way I do. You said they might be worried you're looking over their shoulder. Whose shoulder are you not looking over? Yao Ming, I think. That would be about it. Yeah. So it's a crazy game. I don't know. It's got its hooks in me, and I can't seem to... I'm not really trying hard to get them out. And I just think there's just so many great games from lots of different manufacturers and to see how far the industry has come. So I think, I don't know how long you guys have been collecting or playing, but I just feel like there's some validity to the fun and the joy that I've tried to spread. I feel like more people are getting the message now. There's more leagues, there's more tournaments, there's more collectors, and all of a sudden I feel like, yeah, I've been saying, not that I'm the only one, but for 20 years I've been telling people, hey, pinball's great, come over and play it. And it's taken a little while, but it seems to be catching on around the world, which is pretty cool. So then of the more recent games, let's leave it to maybe the last three years. What are some of your favorite games that have come out in recent times? I'm having a ton of fun with Avengers right now. I think Keith Elwin is not only a great player but an incredible designer. So having a lot of fun with Jurassic Park and Avengers. Also really liking Elvira House of Horrors. I really love Dennis Nordman's work. Whitewater was probably my first or second love of pinball, so I just love the way he makes a game shoot. I am having a ton of fun with Pirates of the Caribbean with Jersey Jack and just how a wide body can shoot like a narrow body. And trying to get through that game, and right next to that is Rick and Morty. And I'm having a – I just laugh when I hear the call-outs, and sometimes you might start a new game mid-game, and it's not going to let you off the hook. It's going to give you a rude comment for quitting on it. And so I'll often smile when I'm playing amusing games of pinball and they'll say things that are funny, but I just feel like I've heard all of them and none of it's a surprise. But, you know, as new code comes out with Rick and Morty, it's one of the few games that makes me laugh out loud. And so I'm thrilled with a lot of these efforts that a lot of these companies are putting out. And I just think as a collector, I think it's just wins all across the board. So you're a collector, but also pandemic aside, you're an operator too. I wonder what it's like there in the Seattle area, in Washington state, where you have a lot of your games on location. I hope a lot of those locations are certainly going to survive. And a lot of Americans are getting their vaccines. They're saying everyone will have it by May, which is great. So that means we're turning the corner. Things will get to normal hopefully by the end of this year and maybe even sooner. What is it like there for you as an operator with some of those locations? will we be able to rebound? I think we will. I mean, it's been tough. And fortunately, operating has been a hobby business for me. It's been a small business and it's been for fun. And I don't depend on that to put food on the table. But I do know people, I have friends that is their primary source of income. And I felt horribly for them for just how tough this has been for many of them having their games off or their places closed for a year. And so it's been extremely tough. And I've tried to, you know, buy some gift cards and support them. And, you know, whether it was GoFundMes or just places that people that I want to support and places that I want to still be there when this is over. But, you know, fortunately, there's starting to be some light at the end of the tunnel here and things are starting to open up and they're starting to have some inside dining and games are allowed to be on now and sort of spaced apart. And so things are starting to improve. And I just think over time, I think people are just when they can safely go out, but I think they're going to want to do it. And I think just with COVID, maybe the concern or just the way in which it's passed from people, there's maybe not as much of a concern as it being a contact surface like a pinball machine. Of course, you want to take precautions and you want to wipe everything down. But I think for a time there where it was just unknown, it just seemed like we'd picked a hobby that just wasn't, it was going to take a while to get back to. But I do think that the future is bright for pinball. And I think with the success of some of the manufacturers and the demand, I think people are going to want to go out and play. And I think with the rising cost of some of the games, you know, people might not be able to collect as many as they would like. And so they may need to turn to some public venues that I think are going to be places that people are going to want to go and play. Because I do think the products that these companies are putting out are worth going out for and playing and putting money into. I think they're fantastic, and I think that's why they can go back and rerun these titles, because they're not cutting corners. They're making games that are timeless, and I think that's why we can still enjoy pinballs we have in our collections, whether they're from the 50s or 60s. They're still fun, because the designers of those games built them in a way that they – I don't know, there's something about pinball where it just doesn't get old. As an operator, what do you think makes a good machine for earning potential? I think theme is really important, and so I'm always talking to my friends that are operators to find out what is doing well, and some of it is location-dependent. You'll have a title that works great in one place, and it just doesn't work somewhere else, but there's some general rules. I think theme is really important for people. I think just the level of difficulty, you know, you'll have, you know, whether it's a game like Shadow or something that people like to play, but it just, you know, just eats their lunch and the ball, there's just the ball times are too short or, you know, something like Ghostbusters is a great theme and I think it earns great. I love mine. I know there's some other people that don't want to put money in it because they just feel like the game is going to be shorter because of the, you know, the big gap in the center. You did listen to our last show. I did. So, yeah, I tend to put games, if I wanted to maximize earnings, I think I would probably move my games around a little bit more and keep it fresh. But I kind of just, there was something to be said when I was a kid for knowing that when I went to the roller skating rink, Pinball was going to be there. Or if I went to this mall, Bram Stoker's Dracula would be there. My other arcade, Data East Jurassic Park was there. And so I kind of liked knowing it was a little bit like sports where you know who the players are on a team and they spend some time there. So maybe that's just me being lazy, not loving to move them. But instead of trying to maximize the revenue, I kind of like to find a good fit for a game and then just let it stay there as long as the location is happy with it. Well, Todd, while we've got you on here, I do need some help from you because one of the stereotypes, and it's going to be hard for you to prove it wrong, of Canadians is that we're highly intelligent. You add ginger to the fact that we're talking Mensa society. But let's just see if Marty can dispel this myth. So, Marty, actually, Marty, I want you to go on FaceTime with me right now so I can see that you're not Googling. I'm sending you a video thing right now. You're cheating SOB. Okay. Oh, his camera's off, so I can't see him. Type Google here. Hold on a second here. Where is he? Put on some pants, for God's sakes, please. Hello. Or at least move the camera up. Let me call you back because I can see me, but not you. I'll call you back. This is my way of preventing Marty from cheating, Todd. You've got to keep an eye on him. He is a filthy cheater. You know, it's the reason we don't, on this show, do the old head-to-head classic where we have the challenges, because I know he's going to read. There he is. Okay. So when I ask you the question, your hands need to be in the air, Marty. Hands, plural. Well, I'm holding my phone with one. Oh, he's a thumbtack. Okay, here we go. Okay, okay. There you go. Hold on. Oops, I just dropped mine. Hold on a second. Okay, hold on a second here. This is a question for both of you. I will let Marty answer first, okay? This is a trivia question that is fair for both of you. Marty, the category is famous Australians. Okay. Sorry, Todd, but that's just the first category that came up, all right? Understood. First question. This person hails from Melbourne, Australia. Wow. Oh, you're screwed, Todd. Marty, who is Ben Simmons? Is he the guy that plays for Utah? You know what? I'm going to give him half a point there for guessing that it was an NBA player. Isn't Ben on Philly? Yeah, he's on Philly. No points, no half points, no nothing. He gets zero. I figured it would be sport related. Only because, you know, I went to Utah and I saw Utah, whatever they call play, and I think they had two Australians in the team. Pretty memorable experience. I saw Utah whatever's play. I think that's their team name. He saw Utah Jazz, by the way, one of the best teams in the NBA this year, against the Lakers. It wasn't like you just saw a dud game. Okay. But it was disappointing because we were meant to have that, whoever is that famous player. LeBron James? Yeah, is that who it is? Yeah. And he didn't turn up. He didn't turn up because he doesn't need to. Okay. I'm going to give him a half point there. So you get the other half point. Todd, it's even. Okay. Okay. All right. Famous Australians. This is a pinball question. A pinball question, Marty. Hands up. Okay. I can see them. So he's not typing. Hands up. This is a pinball question. Famous Australians. Who is Luke Longley related to pinball? Never heard the name in my life. Oh, we'll throw it over to you, Todd. He's a Chicago Bull, and he won, I think, three championships with them. I'm trying to think how he relates to pinball. I don't know. Is he on the back glass of Fastbreak, maybe? Well, you probably put your face over it, so that's probably why you didn't know that answer. But no, he's a trivia question in that game. Ah, okay. Which player hails from Australia? Okay. So there is a pinball tie-in there. There is. No points for either one of you. Okay, he didn't know that. I think that would have been pretty obvious, me trying to Google that, just the delay in trying to answer those. I don't think you needed to see me. I just don't trust. I don't know if you have voice commands. Admittedly, we're Australians. We're convicts. I get it. I didn't say that. I just said I've heard you on head-to-head. I don't know if you have a Rolodex of flyers when you were reading, but it was incredible how quickly you would come up with that stuff. How about this? Todd, I don't think it wasn't the last time we saw each other because that would have been at Expo, I guess, two years ago. But one of my favorite moments with you was a very fortunate moment, and you mentioned Ed Ed Robertson earlier Ed Todd myself three Canucks were the broadcasters for the last last circuit finals That was so much fun Yeah that was fun We had a great lineup and we had a lot of fun in the finals and it was great competition. And I don't know if you were supposed to go to it last year. I think it was right about this time last year. But I was looking forward to doing that again and hopefully working with you and Ed again, because that was a great lineup of good times. Yeah, I didn't get the invite. Thanks. Zach Sharp, son of a... No, but you did a great job. And of course, Ed as well. And he had a little concert there too. It was fun. And again, you talk about great competitions. That was one Andy Rosa won. And that'll be neat, especially the way they're doing it for the next time. It's the top 20 players. You lose a game, you're gone. One and done. So big bucks there. So I look forward to seeing you on that as well. And I think the last time we talked was Pinball Profile. We were talking about a movie you shot where you were some sort of a bad guy, let's just say. Has that come out yet? What's the latest on that? I'm still looking for a distribution. So the movie is sort of wrapped in a sense, and everything has been turned over to the producer. And last I heard, that producer was shopping it around to different streaming services and companies. Shudder, yeah. And I have not heard. It might end up there. So who knows? But unfortunately, I don't have any news to share on that front. So my film debut, in terms of anyone else seeing it, it's going to take a little while. But I will let you know. You need the trifecta. You can't just have a bobblehead and a back glass. You have to have a film as well. I have to have a film credit as a bad guy. But speaking of films, you had to be excited again since the last time we talked that Deep Root said they were going to be making a Goonies pinball machine. I know how much you love Goonies. I love Goonies. Goonies and throughout the pandemic we've had some family nights for watching movies and I thought it'd be a good chance to introduce the kids to a bunch of the movies that I loved as a kid and so that one just brings back a lot of good memories and the rock that they come out at the end there is Haystack Rock and it's down in Cannon Beach, Oregon. I think the movie is supposed to take place in Astoria nearby but it's just so scenic at Cannon Beach. It's very picturesque and we go down there from time to time. And so I feel like I'm living the Goonies when we go down to Cannon Beach. So I am very excited for that title. I think that was a great land for them to get that license. Speaking of, you were talking about great tournaments. And obviously, I met you 2019, Pinberg, and there was obviously a fantastic tournament there that really only Jeff and I competed in. Do you remember this tournament, Jeff? No, I don't remember it. Sorry, Todd's got to go. We're running out of time here. Thanks very much. If I can't talk about tournament wins, you can't talk about tournament wins. You won the Trash Talker Invitational. All right, big deal. No, I'm not talking about that tournament. I'm talking about the competition that you and I had as a side tournament, at the end of Pinberg, where we bet either one of us who was the best friend of Todd McCulloch. Oh, for God's sakes. Oh, shit. I don't think this has gone on air. We didn't talk about this on air, did we? we so i think we were just talking about you for some reason todd and marty had to name drop and say oh he's a good friend of mine i'm like wait a second i'm canadian here you're trying to say todd likes you more than me like sorry marty you're a great guy but it's not a chance so of course i text todd and i said todd there's a boat sinking you can only save one person who's going to be jeff or marty i don't think i hesitated very much it was no you didn't you yeah i think I think I got right back to you right away. It did not take long. You even said, I think, you found an extra life preserver. You'd still hold my head under. I need Marty to have two life preservers just to make sure that he flows and stays alive. He likes to put his feet up. I appreciate that. You're welcome. Anyway, I'm the winner is really what we're saying. Jeff, you had a good time down in Australia visiting these guys down there? It's a great place. Have you been? I was in the Sydney Olympics in the year 2000. and I played for Team Canada's basketball team. And Australia was a wonderful host country, and I couldn't think of a better city or country to host. If I had to play in the Olympics, that was the one to be in. And so I love the country, and I need to go back. Yeah, it's a beautiful country. I mean, I only saw it for all of 10 days from Perth to Sydney and, of course, slummed it in Melbourne. But I'm definitely going back. I think I was planning on going back next year. I'm probably going to check out Queensland, the one area I haven't seen. And I'd like to get to New Zealand as well, too. So I could spend a lot of time there. It's very lovely and good people. That's what I like. I always judge the place. I mean, the scenic aspect is wonderful, but it's the people. And something about Australians and Canadians, maybe you can kind of relate a little bit, Todd. But, I mean, we both kind of have the same sense of humor and just self-deprecating and all that kind of fun stuff. Yeah, we've got similar populations and similar land mass and I think just a similar joie de vivre. Just a love for life. And I loved all the Aussies that I met. And you will love New Zealand as well. They were some of the best people I had met. And so I need to get down to the South Island and check out the natural beauty of that. But I love the people there. Yeah, New Zealand is fantastic. Great people. High rider, Dave. Yeah, Dave Peck and Danielle, too. Two wonderful people. So, well, Todd, thank you very much for coming on the program. Speaking of islands, I've got to get to your island. That will be a lot of fun. and I certainly will do that the next time I'm in the Northwest. It's an island I believe you own. Am I correct on that? Partial, partial. We're working on the rest of it, but it's a great place to live. We've got a growing pinball scene. I've got a friend that I've infected with a pinball bug, and he's bought a bunch of machines, and now he's renting them to people, and so he's got a healthy rental market. So we're just putting pinball machines into the homes of more people, and they're finding out how much fun it is. And so I think there's five Batman 66 on Bainbridge Island, which is per capita, is pretty good. And so we're trying to do our part to grow the game. And people are realizing not only is it fun, but it's fun to play together. So we need to get everybody healthy and safe so we can start to meet up and play publicly because everybody really enjoys that. Yeah, I was out in the Northwest. You know why I didn't come to your place? I didn't invite you? You did invite me. I just didn't trust you because I thought, I've got to take a ferry off there. He'll throw me off the boat for fuck's sakes. He'll save Marty. Can't blame me. Can't blame me for that. No regrets. Thanks very much for joining us. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you, guys. I love your show. Keep up the good work. You guys are a super team. I like it. You're a lot better than that Pinball Profile guy, Marty, so keep up the good work. Thank you. There you go. You know, I need some space on pinballprofile.com, so I'm going to be deleting a few episodes. Oh, there goes the Todd one. Oh, there goes this other one. There they go. And there goes the Josh Sharpe ones. That would be, well, half my data right there. 75% of your show. Okay. Take care, buddy. All right. We'll see you guys. Have a good one. So there we go, everybody. Todd McCulloch, great guy. But what did we learn, Jeff? I am never going on a boat with him unless I'm wearing a life jacket. Yeah, I think the evidence was pretty overwhelming in my favor. I would survive. Todd would survive. We'd have a great life together. you'd be dead. That's pretty much how it went, wasn't it? I'd be chum. You're right. That's not cool. Fellow Canadian, I'm not impressed. Okay, we started off by talking about me saying aboot and our and sorry and all those other Canadian things I say. Did he talk Canadian? He's been in the States a long time. No, no. See, that's the thing. Again, we talked about the fact that I said college football instead of college basketball because I just, you know, I don't give a shit about sports. I didn't even know he was Canadian till you mentioned it on the podcast. When we started recording and you're like, oh, Canadian, and I'm like, oh, is he Canadian? Didn't know. I am embarrassed. I did know he was in the Olympics in Sydney in 2000, but that's a long time ago. I've forgotten more things in the last 21 years. Anyway, he is a good guy, and I do look forward to getting to his island. It is his island. Let's call it for what it is in the upper Northwest. Great collection, and yeah, he's a fun guy. We'll have him on again. Yeah, he's a really nice guy. And as I said, I met him at Pinberg a couple of years ago. It's really interesting because, you know, in this bubble that we're in, you, arguably, more well-known than I am. Also. Well, no, it's true. But when I go to these things and I see people that I recognise that are famous, I'm like, oh my God, you know. And I saw Tom McCulloch. I mean, again, another tall joke. It was hard to miss him. He literally was the tallest person there. And I'm like, oh, my God, that's Tom McCulloch. And then he came up to me and said, oh, hey, Marty. And I went, oh, my God, he knows who I am. That was me sort of being a little bit starstruck. So I think that stuff's kind of cool. What's funny is he does listen to a lot of podcasts. He likes a lot of pinball content, and he does like going to shows. I know he's got the young kids he mentioned. But when I asked him, I sent him a text. Hey, what are you doing? Do you want to come on Final Round? He goes, I'm actually listening to Final Round with Steven Bowden as we were texting. So I thought that was pretty cool. Pretty much a good way to secure a guest. So if I reach out to you, just say, I'm listing the final round right now. Good chance you'll be a guest. That's how it works. Absolutely. We'll have you on. The other thing that we learned, pinball aside, I still think it is awesome that he's got a bobblehead. I just, that was kind of crazy to me that you, like, you know, the biggest celebrities have either dolls or bobbleheads. And it's kind of cool. And he's got it in his wheel of fortune. That's so funny. The back glass. Yeah, he's got it all. I mean, it's certainly pimped out, but here's us with our... We're happy with them, but if we're comparing, we just have Walter Day trading cards. Everybody's got one now. My son's got one. Your son's got one. So congratulations on Brady getting his for Led Zeppelin. It's cool. What I liked about that is you could have easily have done yourself, but I'd imagine in your head you're going, you know what? I've already got a card. Let me give it to somebody else. Well, a couple of things. I love Walter Day, what he's doing, that he is putting people on that have not been on a card before. So I never had any intention to go on it. I did ask Carson to go on it, but a little too cool for school, 19 years old. Yeah, Dad, I'm not going to do it. So, you know, maybe it was a bad hair day or whatever the case. Brady, he was young enough that he's like, yeah, you're doing it. You're getting on Zeppelin. Yeah, I get it. It's awesome. And there's friends that I know that have now got cards as well because they own the machines. And it was first team, best dressed. Good on them. I think that's freaking awesome. It is very nice. I mean, the whole Walter Day trading card collection for all the different things he does, pretty impressive too. And just not only people and machines, but events as well. I just did a pinball profile about Eric Wurtenberger, who's on the pinball network, and he had a Walter Day card for his Pinsonati show coming up in December. So that's nice. What I do want to know about these cards is, are they collectibles? Like, are people actually going, oh, there's the new Jeff Teolas card. I've got to have that one. And they're like, hmm, I'll trade you one Jeff Teolas for two Martin Robbins. Is that kind of that whole swapping collectibility happening with these cards? I just don't know. I would imagine, for the most part, probably not. I have seen some people with albums of thousands of these cards. So I do know that there are collections. If you go to InDisc, and next time you do, I'll show you, right in the Museum of Pinball, where all those huge games are, there's a little side room. I know Omoto uses it a lot for setting up camera gear and things like that. You can see the display of a lot of the cards in there. So they are on display. And again, I think it probably means more to the individual. And I don't know. I just think it's great that all these people are being highlighted. Some over 300 this year. And it's just great. Well, here's another question for you. So I can relate to we have football cards for the AFL. And I'm sure there's other sports here. And, you know, there's Pokemon cards and all those kind of collectible cards. And the rarest cards are foil cards. right? So they've got a metallic film, they've been printed on there, the rarest and the most valuable. Who in the pinball world would be a foil card? I don't know. I think, does a foil card mean it's just rare, they've only printed so many, so every 10,000 packs you might get a foil card? If it's that, it can be anybody, but it would probably be somebody who's a designer or a great pinball player or an artist, something like that, a coder. I mean, you know, it makes sense to be a Roger Sharp or Keith Elwin, Steve Ritchie, people like that. Could be Harry Williams. I don't know. It depends. I mean, it's funny how they manipulate. Zach Manning's big into cards lately. You probably heard him on the pinball show talk about collecting cards and going to Walmart, waiting in line for hours. There's been a bit of a resurgence because of the pandemic, but let's not forget what happened in 1990, 192. A lot of the sporting card world, and I used to collect up until that point, it just exploded. They would mass produce everything. And if there were one, two, three different types of baseball cards, well, now there were 30 different sets. And it just got to be too much, and they weren't worth the paper they were printed on back then. So I know with these foils and things you're talking about now, signature series, things like that, they're worth a little bit more. But it's funny to see cards go on auctions and sell for millions of dollars. But those are definitely rare and probably not anything in your collection or mine. Correct. I think probably the main difference is with those other collectible cards, you do buy them in packs. And, you know, if it's a pack of 10, you might get 7 common, 2 uncommon, and 1 rare and an ultra rare foil. With these cards, they literally print off 100. I don't know how many they keep and they give you 100. So if they were selling them in packs and there was currency associated with rareness of the cards, that's probably how it would work. But I don't think these cards have got that sort of format where it is sold in packs with rarity. If you act now, go to finalroundpinball at gmail.com. You can get a Martin Robbins and Jeff Teolas foil Walter Day trading card. What is this, you ask? It's simply the card wrapped in tinfoil. That's it. It literally is. Oh, do you know what? Missed opportunity. I could have put my cards in the trophies. Anyway, I didn't. Oh, that's too bad. Darn it. Speaking of trophies, you've got a new job. I guess you're working at the post office now? It felt like I was working at the post office because I did send out the Reach Around trophies yesterday, I think it was. Two hours I was in the post office sending those out. Two hours, Jeff. I'm impressed, especially during a pandemic. And you know who's really going to be impressed are all those fine Reach Around winners. So everything has been mailed, and that was this week. I guess the week of March. Actually, they were last week, so it would have been March 1st, the week. So give it a few weeks. Remember, it's coming from Australia, so they will be coming. But please let us know when you receive your Reach Around, because it was a fun show to do, and even maybe funnier to make the awards. and there was a little work involved, but it's all going to pay off in a nice keepsake. It was. And it was a celebration of all things pinball, and it was also a really interesting highlight about this podcast, the fact that it really isn't about tournaments and competitive pinball anymore. However, Jeff, let's bring it back into competitive pinball, because there is an event we can talk about. It is the Stern Invitational. They did this before. eight players playing for a brand new Stern machine. In this case, it looks like it's an Avengers game, so that's going to be happening this week, in fact. You can check it out on Twitch. It'll be on the Marvel channel, the Stern channel, Deadflip will be doing it, and Moto Harney's part of it. I think Tim Sexton as well. So, I enjoyed the last time they did that with Turtles, and, you know, there's been some buzz. I know we're in a bit of a group chat, and people are saying, oh, I wish I lived in Chicago, because the eight participants are in Chicago. Let me tell you how I feel about this. At the end of the day, Stern's giving away a pinball machine. That's pretty cool. And it's eight people. So, yeah, they're all from Chicago. Who cares? You know, it's eight different people than last time. It's not Stern employees. They're giving away a pinball machine. Don't shit on it. Hmm. Okay. You feel different? I find it humorous, I think, is how I take it. But I also, I agree with you. I think, you know what, it's just a nice spectacle. I'm looking forward to the production. I believe that they probably would have learned a lot from last time how they produced this format. And, you know, it was very watchable. The other thing I say is it's going to obviously be held in Chicago. I don't know whether you know, but that's where Stern is located. I don't think they necessarily want to be promoting travel around the country because we are still in this pandemic. And I know, obviously, vaccines are going out. But still, they don't want to have people traveling all over the place. They just keep it local. I get that. That's the bit where I go, okay, I get it. You just don't travel. Keep it local. Fine. If you remember the first Invitational, it was filmed at different locations. So in New York State, it was filmed in Ohio, Illinois, and other places. So this is a little more centralized, probably easier to film. The event is this Friday. It's going to be cool that someone wins a pinball machine. It can't be all of us. It's only eight people. They're filming it. It's a little more controlled that it's all done in Illinois and likely Chicago. So it is what it is. I'm sure I'll be watching it at some point, whether live or after the fact. It's probably pre-recorded. That makes a lot of sense, too, because of the pandemic. Ideally, you'd like these things live. But I'm guessing the fact that we watch these people in video on the teaser video, it's already been recorded. They just don't know who's won yet. That was the case with the last Invitational. They recorded like they were advancing to the finals, but you didn't know based on the times and the challenges. I like these challenge matches. I think they're fun to play in, though. Have you been in one? I have, kind of, in that I streamed Heads Up here. Actually, no, I tell you a lie. I did do a Heads Up challenge at Ryan's. I think we had Star Trek, because he and I both had a Star Trek and a Wizard of Oz, so we did the heads up challenge there. I had this strange feeling that I might have won it and I'm not trying to be a douchebag like I always am. I had this feeling I did. It's just so long ago. You sent me a note that said, hey, talk about Ryan, me beating him at heads up. What do you mean? You told me to say that. What I remember from that, there was a game on Wizard of Oz and it was to start Rescue multiball and they both got it at, oh my God, exactly the same time. What was great was because we were streaming, we then just looked at the streaming footage and could watch the playback to see it was within a second. It was that close. They both started. It was that close. I love the format. I love the fact that you are playing, but you're constantly... It's like you're playing two games. You're playing your game, you're watching the person next to you, so you're playing their game as well. It's just an adrenaline rush. I love the format, and I love watching the streams of it. It will be interesting. I really enjoyed what Carl did with Pinclash, and maybe The Invitational has learned a little bit from Pinclash, because let's be honest. Sorry, that Pinclash thing is the best video competition I've seen in a long time. I'm not saying that because I was the smallest part of it. I'm talking about the competition, the commentating, the production, the actual players, the schedule, how the tiers worked of the different challenges all that god that was fun for what we saw in jurassic park and a little birdies told me that we're going to be seeing another one of those pretty soon so look for pin Slash too sorry carl i'm spilling the beans well okay it probably addresses one of the only and it wasn't an issue because it was watchable but when you had pin Slash with everybody in all their different locations there was different resolutions there was different angles, there was different lighting from all the different people because you were streaming from their location. I guess with the Stern invitation or being in the one location, I'm assuming it's going to all be in the one location. Don't know. I don't know. I've assumed that it is. Do you know? I have no idea. I haven't asked and I haven't been told, so I don't know. Yeah, that's probably what they're trying to address is how can we improve the production quality of this even more? We shall see. Speaking of production quality, it brings us to our sponsor of the week. It was the interview that shocked Buckingham Palace. No one knew what to expect. And what came next was incredible. The Duke and Duchess of Sussex had much to say. And when Harry and Meghan dished all the dirt, the world was in awe. Gone now from the royal family. No more honorary military titles. But Harry and Meghan are not alone. Hear the tales of yet another couple who has also lost their title. This time, Oprah presents her one-on-one conversation with the Potato Heads. There is no subject that's off-limits. Oh, really? And you are not getting paid for this interview. I can dream, can't I? You'll be all ears and eyes and other removable body parts in this explosive interview. What am I supposed to do with all my identification? I'll need to get a new driver's license. I don't have time for all this. It's Oprah and the Potato Heads this Saturday night. And coming soon, Oprah speaks with the forgotten characters of the six banned Dr. Seuss books. What? Only on CBS. All kidding aside, Marty, if the next game from Jersey Jack Pinball is Toy Story, what are they going to call the character? Are they going to change it? Well, I guess they might. I'm asking a question. I'm not trying to be funny. If the toy itself has changed its name to Potato Head, will they change it? Well, if you remember, the movies actually had a Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head in it. So, maybe. It really depends on whether there's playfield inserts or Mr. Potato Head mode. Otherwise, if it's just a character in it, you don't need to reference it, I guess. I don't know. I see the actor, Elliot Page. Do you know Elliot? Nope. Canadian. originally started on the trailer park boys you can see elliot on the umbrella academy oh i know elliot page uh particularly because of um the umbrella academy and juno was an amazing film as well the character was a young teenage mom and uh it was just really funny with michael cera love that movie when i bring up elliot is when i look at past credits and we're talking about Potato Head now in Toy Story, will they retcon that? When they talk about Elliot Page now, they have removed any old reference to Ellen Page and even in older movies starring Elliot Page, Juno, which I think is great. Okay. If Toy Story comes out, I don't care what they call it, I'm looking forward to that game. That will be a great license. I have been waiting for this game for, I'm going to say three years. That was when I was told that it was in production by somebody that you would say is a reputable source. And they mentioned that it was being developed by Pat Lawler. That was three years ago. So lots of things could have changed. I look forward to it because I think as a visual medium, I think you're already going to have great visuals in the screen. But also the toys you could just have in the play field. It just lends itself to a pinball machine so well. I haven't given it much thought. Maybe you have. Maybe you don't want to say. And that's an answer as well. What themes are not your dream themes are possibly out there that you think would make great pinball machines? Taking your personal choices out of it. Thinking for the masses too. What would sell on a mass level? What would some of these titles be? Well, I think one of the ones that does come up is Pokemon for some reason. Yeah. You know, I don't, for me, I'm not that fussed, but it is a global brand and it's a very popular brand and it would probably break into new markets, I guess, of Pokemon. That's one I would put out there. Unless Homepin makes it. Yes. What about you? That's why you should say Pokemon, because we were talking earlier about the trading cards. Those Pokemon cards are ridiculous. So. Yeah, they are. There was a movie trailer that just came out. I know you're very familiar with it. You're a former gamer. I never was much into games. I played a lot of sport games like the EA Sports and things like that I like video games but we talking old old school like Pac Defender I mean when video games first kind of came out Asteroids things like that The more buttons that came on it as you can imagine I wasn very good But I saw a movie trailer for Mortal Kombat And I think just reading some of the comments about how people are losing their stuff I think that would make a great pinball machine I saw when Sonic the Hedgehog movie came out how people lost their minds over that one I know there's a homebrew for Sonic. It looks very good. Sonic is fast. That would be very, very good for a pinball machine. It's funny you should say that because as we started bringing up this topic, because it wasn't really in the show notes, I wrote in front of me Mortal Kombat. and that's when you started. And obviously we mentioned it last episode when everyone was trying to work out what the jigsaw puzzle was. Turns out it's a jigsaw puzzle. But people were saying Mortal Kombat and again, people losing their shit. Would you do the movie or would you just base it on the video game? I don't know. The first movie was interesting. It didn't... I don't think it was... You would call it a successful film. Was it low budget? I don't think it was as big budget as we were expecting. If you're talking about fighting games, It was always, back in the day, it was Street Fighter versus Mortal Kombat. You were either a fan or the other, because they had slightly different mechanics. I was a Mortal Kombat fan. Loved, loved, loved Mortal Kombat. Mortal Kombat 3 is just one of the best fighting games ever. So when the movie came out, I was just all over that. Loved the movie, but one thing about the Mortal Kombat game, it's all about the ice throwing the ice that Sub-Zero does, or the electric shock that Raiden, there you go, he does, or Scorpion with the big hook, whatever it is. None of that was really in the movie till the very end. Sorry, guys, spoiler alert. Had a great, great soundtrack. This is what I also remember was, I know this is going to sound so bizarre. You can leave it in or cut it out, up to you. It was the first time I'd heard about Tracy Lourdes because she had a song in the soundtrack called Control and it's a great album. If anyone ever wants to go back and have a listen to Tracy Lord's album, it's kind of techno. It's a little lowish budget, but it's great. So that was my introduction to Tracy Lord's. I'm pretty sure it wasn't your introduction. Do you want to know my introduction to, not Tracy Lord's, but Morrie Melrose Place, for sure. I know who she is. I have never seen anything she's ever done or heard anything she's ever done, so I can say that in all sincerity. But my introduction to Mortal Kombat, I never played it. I certainly knew about it. Probably my younger brother played it. My real introduction to Mortal Kombat was on this show, Final Round, when you did an image of you and I as two characters. It was for the Pinberg Challenge, and we had 32 people, and I got feedback from people. Lauren Gray went nuts when she goes, Oh, I'm on a Final Round graphic. It's awesome. So that was kind of, Oh, I guess that's what that is. I knew nothing. Yeah, okay. Well, and they were the two most popular characters. as it was Sub-Zero and Scorpion were the characters that we did. Yeah, it's a huge franchise. But just going back to the movie, the first movie was good. It was okay. The second movie, I think it was Mortal Kombat Annihilation maybe, was dreadful. In every aspect, it was dreadful. So I think it absolutely destroyed the franchise as a movie, and now they're reintroducing it. and I've heard the Mortal Kombat techno track is also going to be featured, redone in the new one, and everybody's losing their shit over that. Just some iconic things from back then are coming back. So it could be good timing for them to release the Mortal Kombat pinball machine. However, let's talk about the Johnny Mnemonic effect, which is... Okay, bad movie? Well, George Gomez, he's talked about it. They did design the pinball machine, and arguably it's a great pinball machine. But then when the movie came out and it absolutely bombed, they were like, oh shit, now we've got a machine that's a good player, but a bad theme. And it didn't do so well. Well, I'm sure there have been a few of those movies. Congo couldn't have exactly excited them either. Yeah, correct. So that's what I'm saying. Like with this, would somebody be developing a Mortal Kombat game right now only if they were saying what's the strength of the video game, not the movie, because the movie is just, it's risk. They did Stranger Things after the success of the first season and some follow-up in season two. So that game came out when season three was, I think, on Netflix. So they had to have something more than just a single movie. Yeah. I think you have to be safe. unless one movie is just a monster. You would do it after the fact and maybe hope for a sequel, but I can't see simultaneously those days of, okay, we're going to release the album or we're going to release the movie the same time as the pinball machine. It just doesn't seem like it's... It's just too much of a risk when you look at how long it takes to make a pinball machine. There are licenses out there that are iconic. I think of Barbie dolls. Yeah, well, I mean, the thing that people keep talking about is the video game market Fortnite. Has it really been tapped into? Fortnite Portal? Oh, Zelda is another one that people took. Give us a Zelda machine. Yeah, I absolutely get that. Do a better version of Mario Brothers. Yeah, well, absolutely. Although that kind of, yeah, I guess you probably could, I guess. I'm just so tainted by that. Mario Brothers is such a bad game. It is. As people talk about bands and when Led Zeppelin came out, oh, yeah, another old 70s rock band, blah, blah, blah. I was looking at some of the top-selling artists of different decades, and I think there's a big risk factor if you do the hot new thing, especially if they're still producing content and new music. If they come out with a bomb, that would reflect poorly on the pinball machine and the sales of it and how often it's played. I think of when Justin Bieber was at the height, and he could do no wrong. Well, he then found drugs, tattoos, and other things and changed his baby face image to something different. And he became a man and got married. He's not the same as he once was. So if they came out with a Hannah Montana pinball machine and then she becomes Miley Cyrus, who, by the way, I fucking think she's amazing. I love her music. Sorry, I said it. Yeah, this is the Zeppelin guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She can sing her ass off. But that's a different image than Hannah Montana. So you have to be careful with current artists. I think that's why you're safe. When you come up with Zeppelin, when you come up with Iron Maiden for the most part, Metallica, most of their work is already done and certainly the best that they've done. It's tough to do new artists. I know. Look, Ryan and I had a big conversation about this on Head to Head and somebody wrote in and had a go at us because we sort of said, well, it's all about risk and it really won't sell. And someone's saying, you know, that's terrible that I don't want a machine to be made. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, hold on. I want that machine to be made. I'm just putting my head in the heads of the numbers people in these companies who are saying, well, we've really got to sell X amount of units. What's going to sell? They need guarantees. The smaller boutique ones, they can take risks because they only need to sell, you know, a couple of hundred or, you know, 750. Yes. But the Stearns, the Stearns aren't going to really take a risk. That's just the way it is. And I know they do get a bit of criticism because their themes really aren't all that cutting edge. Arguably, I'd say Stranger Things in recent times and Walking Dead to an extent is a bit risky. But they had released them at a point in time when the brand had been established so it's less of a risk. Umbrella Academy. Umbrella Academy. Would you do an Umbrella Academy machine? No. No, I wouldn't. But I would do something that has maybe just completed in the last five, ten years. I would do a Breaking Bad pinball machine. Okay. If you had the assets of Seinfeld, that could be kind of cool. I know that's been over for a long time, but there's just, you know the brand. Maybe. Who knows? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. You know, when you ask, you know, what would you like them to do, it's like, well, I still have the commercial head in my head that says, well I'd love that but I just don't think they would do it so do I expend mental energy thinking about it or I just concentrate on other things? You have to be careful because if you come out with a machine heaven forbid you someday appear on a most overrated list. That could be the absolute death nail in the coffin. You don't want that like these 64 games we're about to mention. Are we going to mention 64? We have 64 games. We don't have to mention them all. Watch for our social media. We will need your votes. We do have 64 games. They came in from you, the listeners, on emails, social media, interviews. Marty and I may have added a few. What do you think of the list? There's 64 games ranging from, this is a bit of a giveaway, but the number two ranked on Pinside down to the number 352 on the ranking as well. So it's everything in between. But you do find the vast majority of these games down to the 56th ranked game is in the top 100 at Pinside. So I think that's fine. You know what? What we hope from this is that it sparks debate and conversation and it's just a bit of fun as these brackets always are. It's certainly not content and lack of competitions. It is absolutely not that by any means. We're certainly not dragging it out by making it a simple all-game bracket. No way. We didn't mention this back in December and it's now March. So, honestly, this is fresh. This is tight. Absolutely. So, yeah, it'll be interesting how this goes. For me, when I looked at games that were overrated and Todd talked about it, Stephen talked about it on the last episode. Are we talking overrated or overpriced? And a lot of times for me, it was overpriced. Although when you look at the Pinside Top 100, you could make a case for overrated as far as that ranking. And that's kind of the guideline we were using when we did the bracket, as you'll see. Do you know that every Stern machine from 2010 on, 26 of them, not including things like Primus or O'Neilly, but were like real pro models. Every single one of those is in the top 100. In fact, the top 80. Do you know what the last two are as far as the lowest ranked Stern pinball machine in the last 10, 11 years? No looking. Oh, well, I've looked. So you tell me. I kind of agree with them. I think around 77, Munsters. Number 80 was the Beatles. Now, the Beatles for me, I think, is a great game, but that's the category of me thinking it was overpriced. If that was the regular price, I don't think it would be ranked as low. Well, I can't remember who it was, but the person that wrote in about the Beatles didn't actually even refer to price. They talked about the gameplay, saying it's just not as exciting as people say. It's not the deepest code. It's certainly more than Sea Witch. It flows better than Sea Witch. It sounds better. It looks better. You know, Sea Witch actually is great art, too. Let's not knock that. But the orbit is certainly something you can do, that upper orbit. I like the magnets, the spinners, the fact you can hit drop targets, and there's a target behind the drop targets. There was a lot put in there, so I like that game. Monsters is certainly one of the most beautiful games to look at. I've said it before. It's one of my favorite art pieces ever. But the game is just not enough there for me. I wish there was a little bit more. And maybe someday, boy, if that ever happens, that becomes a real hot item. Yeah, correct. Because it is. I had one. I sold it. Loved how it shot. Really loved the layout. Oh, I thought it was one of Borg's best layouts. Arguably, people say it's kind of a bit derivative. It's a fan layout with a bash toy, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But you can't excuse the fact that it shot really well, except for the super jackpot shot, which was, you know, a bit tough, but it does shoot well. It's just lacking in code, and you're right. If that ever got just an absolute makeover, it would be a force to be reckoned with, Jeff. Yeah, I think so. I think so, too. But when you see this list of top 64, keep in mind, please vote, but keep in mind we did not include anything that is currently being produced. We did not want to hurt the sales of any current games. Once they come out of production, we will gladly shit all over them. Yeah. Yeah. And if they have been produced in the past and they're currently being rerun or vaulted, we're including them. so just i'm not i'm not sure whether there is anything on this list but i don't think there are just protecting ourselves just in case there is one yeah i don't think there are but anyway so we talked about you working at the post office that obviously was a lie but you have been busy over the last couple of weeks a little bit of house hunting well funny you should say because i was going to mention it before this stern invitation all that's happening i'm not actually going to be able to watch it because that is the exact same time my auction is happening for my house. Your house is doing an auction? It is. It's auctioning itself. So we are going to auction. It is this Saturday at the same time. So think of me as you're watching that event. I'm hoping to get some big dollars, man. Big dollars. Almost as much as I wanted for my Jurassic Park. That much? Is the auction the norm for Australia? I know I've been to your home. It's beautiful, and especially the location and all of the above. Maybe a little too much cat hair for my liking with Winston. I'm just saying it. Yeah, that's fine. No, it's true. I have to clean up every day. Don't worry. It's cat hair freaking everywhere. At least you got rid of those god-awful pinball machines so people don't see those. Is this the norm, the auction, or is this just the best way to maximize your return? So I think the statistics are that the majority of properties do go to auction. I was having this conversation yesterday. Really, if you feel that you've got enough, if there's enough demand on your house, then take it to auction because then people will bid against each other and bump it up. But I think it's easier to just have it for sale as a private sale. So, you know, you just leave it as long as you want until you get the price that you want. Certainly in Australia, auctions are the norm. The majority of them do that. Okay, I've got more questions. Go. I know the real estate agent gets a commission. Yes. The auction must get a commission too. They're not doing it for free. Is it a flat fee? What do you mean the auctioner? Whatever the auctioning company is, they must get a piece of it. It's the same company. It's the same company does the auction is the person that's selling the property. It's not necessarily the same person. Sometimes you get somebody that is the agent is also the auctioneer as well. In our case, our agent won't be the auctioneer, but they're from the same company. It's not like there's an external company that runs the auction. They're not double dipping. No, no, no, no. So whatever commission they get pays for whatever. Now, is there a minimum bid that you won't accept anything under this? Yes. I doubt many people in Australia listen to this podcast. Although when I did come there, there was a lot of people in my tournament. I don't want to talk about it, but the point is... You just keep mentioning it, though. I think we've got to just be really careful here. Let's clarify. I didn't say anything. You are not allowed to mention your tournament here at all. What are you talking about? Right. You said I played in a tournament. Played in a tournament. That's it. Right into us. Is he breaking the rules here? I don't even know what you're talking about. I have no idea what you're talking about. You probably edit that out now just so I look like a dick. Keep going. No, I'll keep anything that makes you look like a dick. So since a lot of people aren't probably listening to this podcast, maybe the timing of it will have passed after the auction. Do you have some plants there that are going to bump up the price? Admit it. Some what? Plants. Some people know. Oh, I thought you were talking about like pot plants. No. No, in the business we call those, you know, sometimes if you do stand-up comedy, there are plants in the crowd where maybe they set you up for a good heckle or things like that. I've never used that, but I'm just saying there are those things. Yes. Or magicians that always happen to have random people in the audience that get paid to be there. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yes. Yeah. Those are plants. Yes. No, we are absolutely not. No. Well, it's funny. It does go through my mind, but I would never do that. I would just feel really, really uncomfortable if that happened. Well, the real estate company might. Well, they can go for it, but we will not be a part of it. I love how I just assume everyone's doing something corrupt. Especially in Australia. As soon as you mention Australia, you just think we're all dishonest thieves. Most of us are, but not everyone. I was on a Antonio Cruz once in Italy. We ran around the whole country. And when we got to Naples, I was excited because that's where my grandfather, Salvatore Teolisi. My last name actually isn't Teolos. It's Teolisi. Oh, and you're just breaking that to me now. Wow. Okay. You knew I was Italian. No. You didn't? No. I barely recognize you as a species, but I think you might be Canadian. I get the red hair from my grandma. My grandpa, Salvatore, was born in Naples, or Napoli. And when they came here, they screwed up his papers, and Teolisi became Teolos. There. There you go. Now you know. Okay. But when we got to the stop of Naples, I was very excited. I was like, oh, this is great. This is where grandpa was born. They kept telling you over and over again about, okay, we cannot enforce enough. Please watch your wallets, your back pockets, your wristwatches. Like, I joke about Australia being a bunch of criminals. Hell no. My grandpa's hometown is like apparently the number one place in the world, which was really sad. So Australia, piece of cake. I only had a couple things stolen there. And that was just when you stayed at my house. So, bad luck. So anyway, that's my story. Really, this last fortnight for me has been trying to get our house ready for open inspections, looking at houses, trying to find them that have got enough space for pinball machines. So, yeah, it's been fun. Have you thought about how many pinball machines you would like to acquire? I know you have, I guess, three in storage, correct? Three? I've got two in storage and one here. So I've got three at the moment. I would still be happy with just four, having two that are permanently in the collection being Star Trek and Wizard of Oz, and then one that's rotating, maybe two that's rotating. As far as gear for streaming on Melbourne Silver Ball, I know where you've done it. And because you have the mobile kit from Carl D'Python Anghelo and Phil Grimaldi, will it be easier with a larger place? It seemed pretty... You will, okay. It would be much easier with a much bigger space. because where I am right now, I literally have, if you can imagine four pinball machines side by side, that is the size of the room. There is very little room either side. So then to do the streaming gear, I would much rather have more space. But it's not a deal breaker. As long as I can fit three or four, I'm happy. Okay, can I ask you another thing too? Yes. This has nothing to do with pinball, but it does in a way because where I live, it's called a back split. So I go around the side of the house downstairs stairs to get to my basement, but it's ground level. And that's how I bring pinball machines into my home, through the ground level, around the side, and down the stairs. With you, are you looking for something? Because you're in a three-story home right now. That's good. Are you looking for something single level, double level? And the reason I ask, and I'm not trying to be funny, is Marty, you and I are getting older. And here I am in the basement right now recording. I have to go up a couple of flights of stairs to go to bed. And I'm okay with it now. At some point, I'm going to be like, these stairs suck. Yeah, you know what? It's funny you should say that because whenever we do look at a property and we look at the floor plan, the first thing we look at is what's the living space going to be like? Where's the master bedroom located? And where are the pinball machines going to be located? And how are we going to get the pinball machines in and out? It is funny you should say that because there are some amazing properties that we've looked at in our budget, in a location, but getting the pinball machines in and out is going to be too hard, so we don't look at them. Wow. So that's how important they are. I have my pinball machines in our basement. Our bedrooms are a couple flights up. So do you want that kind of separation too because I can play pinball machines while Anne's sleeping? Yep, absolutely. So if we're going for a single level, then the pinball room needs to be away from the living and away from the bedrooms. So it's just a filter. It's very hard to find a property that we want because we've just got this requirement. So got more questions about my personal life? Please bring them up. Write in to finalrampinball at gmail.com, please. I'm an open book. What's the one thing you've never had in a home that you would like in this new home? A spa. Oh, good question. A spa? Or a hot tub. I would love a hot tub. I've been to Melbourne. When would you use it? It's always hot there. Oh, no. Melbourne gets really cold during winter, but I would also still use it during summer. So either a hot tub or a pool. I've not had a pool since I was a child. And yeah, you asked the question, what would I want that I've not had? It would be a hot tub. I'd love one. I'd like to move to a home without a pool. Have you got a pool? Okay, listen, I'm not trying to sound like a dick at all. In 2020, it was fucking great having a pool because we had nowhere to go. This was good. The year before, I'm guessing maybe, maybe I was in it three times. The kids are getting older. They don't want to go in it. In Canada, it's freaking cold. So even with it being heated, you're not getting in till maybe June 1st and no one goes in after September 1st. Whoop-de-fucking-do. Three months? Yeah. Sorry, doesn't do it for me. Fair enough, and maintenance throughout the year when you're not using it Understood Oh, ask Ryan C about his pool I don't want to know what's in his pool Yeah, well that's that I won't be asking him about that But when I went over to his place It was just this green algae filled And it was his first time having a pool And that's no fun when you have algae and stuff So I don't know how to compare that into pinball I guess it's like if you have batteries in your backbox and you've never changed them and you take them off and you're like, oh, that acid spill. Or you see a pinball machine on location that they haven't cleaned and it's just got all that dark grime all over it. Yeah, that's my parallel. Do you use dark rubbers or white rubbers? Somebody said to me there's a difference in the way they bounce. And I know there's difference in things like super bands. I get that. I'm talking about sling rubbers, white and black having difference. The only difference I know is if you have black rubbers, you get some of that grime you were talking about. I think I have a few machines with white, but the white rubbers get dirty, as you can imagine, too. So I don't know if you can ever win. My only real experience with that is I changed my Data Race Jurassic Park from black rubbers to white rubbers. And the black rubbers weren't that old, so you could say it was a fair comparison. And it did feel different. I felt the black rubbers were bouncier than the white ones, a bit more elasticity. Okay. I don't know. write in finderandpinball at gmail.com We're genuinely interested and it could be content. Not that we're looking for anything. Not that we're looking for anything. It is a slow month. Who's kidding who? It's about to get interesting. We have got a terrific guest. In fact, we have a couple of guests for our next show. We're so excited about our next show we might, believe it or not, release it early. Earlier than any other episode we've ever released. You mean earlier than the last two episodes that have been released late. Is that what you mean? So maybe on time. Is that what you said? Earlier than our normal schedule of every other Wednesday. We're sorry this week was late, but... That's my fault. Bullshit. It's not your fault. We both have got things. Life sometimes gets in the way, and you've been busy and I've been busy. I've actually been away from home for quite some time, so finding time to... I can't really broadcast or podcast away from home with any kind of good quality, especially since Marty and I are talking. on the internet. I talk late at night, he talks in the afternoon, so that we can match up for time. So these things are really the reasons for any kind of delays. And let's not fool anybody. I mean, the editing, the polish we put on these things, we're just not going to put out anything willy-nilly. These need to be tip-top. I know, I know. I couldn't give a straight face when you said that either. Like, what a load of shit. We fucking just put out any old crap. You know, I was thinking about it when competitions come back. That will be content for us. But we've developed into a different kind of show. I'm sure we'll mention competitions. This isn't a competition podcast. Sorry, Zach, if that's what you signed us up for. Yeah. It's just two assholes talking back and forth and bringing on guests and, you know, taking jabs at them. Yeah, that's the show. That's pretty much the format it's become, and we're happy with it. God bless it. All right. On to bigger and better things. We will talk to you in a fortnight. My name is Jeff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. really appreciate you listening and we'll do it again make sure you vote on the most overrated games on our social media and we'll give you some results next episode have a good one see you later _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 7ac83c7a-eb44-4c1b-ae50-a706f8c1d5d4*