# Episode 53 – Ben Heck is a heartless money-grubbing bastard **Source:** Head2Head Pinball **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2018-07-23 **Duration:** 175m 55s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.head2headpinball.com/2018/07/23/episode-53-ben-heck-is-a-heartless-money-grubbing-bastard/ --- ## Analysis Head to Head Pinball interviews Ben Heck, legendary pinball designer and engineer at Spooky Pinball, discussing his career from homebrew pinball to designing America's Most Haunted, Rob Zombie, and Alice Cooper. The episode covers technical design philosophy, board design choices, his departure from Spooky over delayed projects, and analysis of the newly announced Team Pinball Mafia machine using Raspberry Pi architecture. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Ben Heck started homebrew pinball in 2009 with a Bill Paxton-themed machine, meeting Charlie Emery at Midwest Gaming Classic which led to Spooky Pinball founding in 2013 — _Ben Heck directly states his timeline and origin story in the interview_ - [HIGH] Ben Heck did almost all electronics, rules, and programming on America's Most Haunted except artwork; his code was a 'complete mess under the hood' that had to be reorganized for production — _Ben Heck and Ryan C discuss his work on AMH and code organization issues_ - [HIGH] Rob Zombie pinball used an evolved version of the America's Most Haunted board and software framework, with Ben Heck doing scripts, rules, storyboards, and display animation direction — _Ben Heck describes his involvement with Rob Zombie: 'Rob Zombie used an evolved version of the board set and software framework that America's Most Haunted had'_ - [HIGH] Ben Heck left Spooky Pinball because his game was delayed indefinitely while Alice Cooper and TNA were prioritized, similar to Dennis Nordman's situation with Elvira 3 — _Ben Heck: 'my game was delayed for a long time' and comparison to Dennis Nordman: 'Dennis Norman feels about Elvira 3, which has been designed, like, for two years. It's just been shelved'_ - [HIGH] Team Pinball's Mafia machine uses Raspberry Pi, costs $7,500 USD, is limited to 100 units (35 to US, rest to Europe), and uses audio via 3.5mm headphone jack which is suboptimal compared to I2S protocol — _Ben Heck and Ryan C analyze the Mafia machine specifications and technical implementation_ - [HIGH] Ben Heck does not own America's Most Haunted and doesn't want to see it again; most designers don't own their own games, usually programmers do — _Ben Heck: 'I don't own America's Most Haunted. I don't want to see that goddamn thing again. Most designers don't even have their own games that I know of. It's usually the programmers.'_ - [HIGH] Ben Heck was shown a video of the Mafia game in March 2019 but couldn't publicly discuss it until the announcement — _Ben Heck: 'I actually saw this Mafia game that got announced today. I saw a video of it in March, but I kind of like, I couldn't say anything.'_ - [HIGH] Ben Heck started as graphic artist designing menu layouts for Culver's restaurants before pursuing electronics full-time — _Ben Heck describes early career: 'I used to do, like, the layouts for the menu boards, like, all the food items'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I love pinball, but I also like money. And you use money to buy more pinballs, right?" > — **Ben Heck**, mid-episode > _Directly addresses the episode title's accusation of being 'heartless money-grubbing' by inverting the logic to justify commercial motivation_ > "I would say if you're not completely sick of something by the time you're done with it, you didn't work on it hard enough." > — **Ben Heck**, mid-episode > _Explains his lack of attachment to games he designs; reflects on creative labor burnout_ > "The challenge is doing it. And once it's done, I'm like, well, whatever, I don't care. I got my money in the bank. I don't need the plywood." > — **Ben Heck**, mid-episode > _Core philosophy on design work vs. product ownership; echoes the episode title's framing_ > "America's Most Haunted was a complete mess under the hood. Rob Zombie was a slightly organized mess." > — **Ben Heck**, early-mid episode > _Self-assessment of code quality and evolution in his design process_ > "I don't see it as like, oh, it's my game, it's my baby. I'm like, there's $7,000 sitting there." > — **Ben Heck**, mid-episode > _Directly addresses the 'heartless' framing in the episode title; prioritizes financial return over sentimental attachment_ > "Well, I'm not going to tell you the whole story... they still might finish it someday. I mean, we're still considering it." > — **Ben Heck**, early-mid episode > _Indicates an unfinished Spooky project that may never see release; deflects on details_ > "It's probably very much how Dennis Norman feels about Elvira 3, which has been designed, like, for two years. It's just been shelved. And until it gets released, he won't make any royalties." > — **Ben Heck**, early-mid episode > _Draws parallel to another designer's delayed project; signals industry pattern of shelved machines and unpaid royalties_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Ben Heck | person | Legendary pinball designer and engineer; co-founder of Spooky Pinball; designed America's Most Haunted, contributed to Rob Zombie and Alice Cooper; known for technical expertise and code architecture | | Charlie Emery | person | Co-founder of Spooky Pinball; met Ben Heck at Midwest Gaming Classic; worked with Ben on production optimization for games | | Spooky Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer; founded 2013; Ben Heck worked there designing/programming America's Most Haunted, Rob Zombie, Alice Cooper; delayed Ben's unfinished game indefinitely | | David Van Ness | person | Animator at Spooky Pinball; collaborated with Ben Heck on Rob Zombie and Alice Cooper display storyboards using real-time digital OneNote sketching | | Team Pinball | company | Developer of Mafia pinball machine; using Raspberry Pi architecture; limited to 100 units at $7,500 USD | | America's Most Haunted | game | Spooky Pinball game designed by Ben Heck; 2009-2012 development; complex code that required library restructuring for Rob Zombie's programmer David Fosma to understand | | Rob Zombie | game | Spooky Pinball game using evolved AMH board/software; Ben Heck wrote scripts, rules, storyboards; includes color LCD display work | | Alice Cooper | game | Spooky Pinball game; Ben Heck storyboarded all display animations; designed for family-friendly tone per Alice Cooper's request; HD display implementation | | Dennis Nordman | person | Legendary pinball designer; Elvira 3 shelved for 2+ years without royalties, similar situation to Ben Heck's delayed Spooky project; reportedly moved to Deep Root Pinball | | Chuck | person | Spooky Pinball production expert with extensive pinball collection and insurance claims; optimized Ben Heck's code for production manufacturability on AMH | | Scott Denise | person | Pinball technician/designer; at Pip-Lite; helped optimize mechanical design of America's Most Haunted for producibility | | David Fosma | person | Programmer who coded Rob Zombie pinball using Ben Heck's restructured libraries from America's Most Haunted | | Parker | person | Co-designer with Ben Heck on board set and Pi-based system; advocated for all surface-mount components to reduce production costs by 30% | | Ryan C | person | Co-host of Head to Head Pinball Podcast; conducted this interview with Ben Heck while guest-hosting for Martin in Toronto | | Martin Robbins | person | Co-host of Head to Head Pinball Podcast; absent from this episode (on holiday in Toronto); replaced by Ryan C | | Raspberry Pi | product | Low-cost computer platform used in Team Pinball's Mafia machine; ~$30 cost; Ben Heck analyzes advantages/disadvantages of its audio implementation | | Mafia | game | Team Pinball machine; Raspberry Pi-based; $7,500 USD; 100 units limited (35 US, rest Europe); uses 3.5mm headphone jack audio output | | Midwest Gaming Classic | event | Wisconsin gaming expo where Ben Heck debuted his homebrew Bill Paxton pinball, met Charlie Emery, and launched his pinball career | ### Topics - **Primary:** Ben Heck's design philosophy and career trajectory, Technical board design and audio implementation in pinball machines, Spooky Pinball game development and delayed projects, Team Pinball's Mafia machine and Raspberry Pi architecture, Designer attachment vs. financial motivation in pinball - **Secondary:** Code organization and software architecture in pinball, Production optimization for homebrew/boutique machines - **Mentioned:** Retro gaming collectibility and nostalgia cycles ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.55) — Ben Heck displays cynicism about his own creative work and dismissiveness about game ownership, which the episode title satirizes. However, he speaks with enthusiasm about technical challenges and problem-solving. His tone is candid and self-aware about being motivated by money rather than artistic attachment, deflecting the 'heartless' characterization with logic rather than defending sentimentality. The interview itself is collaborative and positive between hosts. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Delayed pinball projects creating financial hardship for designers; royalty systems tied to release prevent income until completion (Elvira 3, Ben Heck's Spooky game) (confidence: high) — Ben Heck: comparing his situation to 'Dennis Norman feels about Elvira 3, which has been designed, like, for two years. It's just been shelved. And until it gets released, he won't make any royalties' - **[community_signal]** Episode title 'Ben Heck is a heartless money-grubbing bastard' satirizes designer's candid prioritization of financial return over game ownership attachment (confidence: high) — Episode title and Ben Heck's self-aware responses throughout: 'I love pinball, but I also like money... I don't see it as like, oh, it's my game, it's my baby. I'm like, there's $7,000 sitting there.' - **[design_philosophy]** Ben Heck's approach: treats game design as problem-solving challenge rather than sentimental attachment; motivated by financial return, not ownership pride (confidence: high) — Ben Heck: 'The challenge is doing it. And once it's done, I'm like, well, whatever, I don't care. I got my money in the bank. I don't need the plywood.' - **[leak_detection]** Ben Heck saw video of Mafia pinball game in March 2019 but was contractually unable to discuss until official announcement (confidence: high) — Ben Heck: 'I actually saw this Mafia game that got announced today. I saw a video of it in March, but I kind of like, I couldn't say anything.' - **[personnel_signal]** Ben Heck departed Spooky Pinball due to his game being indefinitely delayed while other projects (Alice Cooper, TNA) were prioritized (confidence: high) — Ben Heck: 'my game was delayed for a long time, and I didn't feel like there's any, we went through hell making America's Most haunted, but there was gold at the end of that rainbow?' and 'yeah I mean I'd worked on...I was tired of working on someone else's games' - **[announcement]** Team Pinball's Mafia pinball machine officially announced; Raspberry Pi-based, $7,500, limited to 100 units (confidence: high) — Ryan C: 'a company calling themselves Team Pinball, very creative name, have released information about a pinball machine called The Mafia. It is limited to 100 units. It has a US price of $7,500.' - **[product_strategy]** Ben Heck had unfinished game in Spooky pipeline that was shelved; title and license remain secret due to NDA concerns (confidence: high) — Ben Heck: 'I'm not going to tell you the whole story... The game that I finished and the license that it was going to be, I will never tell.' - **[technology_signal]** Team Pinball using Raspberry Pi for pinball control system instead of traditional pinball electronics; represents cost reduction but technical compromise on audio quality (confidence: high) — Ben Heck analysis: Team Pinball uses 3.5mm audio jack instead of superior I2S protocol; 'not the highest quality way to get audio out of a Pi' but 'not the end of the world' --- ## Transcript you're listening to the head to head people podcast find us on facebook email us at Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 53 and my name's Martin, all the way from, I'd like to say sunny, but it's not, Toronto. And with me is... It's Ryan C. How are you, Ryan? Good, mate. Are you having fun on your holiday? Look, by the time I got here Yes, I was having fun It was probably a good 30 hours of travel So a few delays here and there Did you sleep at all? Did the neck pillow work? Not really So thank you Mrs. Pinn for advising me on the neck pillow Didn't really work all that well And then I've arrived in Toronto Which is an amazing city I'll talk about that later But I believe I've been replaced. Yep. Just like that. A hundred percent. Well, fuck you. You replaced me the week before, so... Cool. Yep. If I'm available when an interview comes up, Marley, then it just has to be done. I know Stacey couldn't record with me, so, you know. We'd been wanting to interview Ben Heck for a while, and I kind of pinged him and said, oh, hey, are you available for an interview? And he was just like, let's do it, like, right now. I'm like, can you, you know, wait a couple of days? Like, right now. so let's cut to that interview and here he is trying to replace me martin is not here but the replacement man at the moment which is Ben Heck and dawn or like everyone calls him ben heck how you going ben i don't think i can do the correct accent to simulate martin but uh yes so yeah i was just i was just sitting around trolling pin side and Ryan's like, hey, you want to do a podcast? And I'm like, sure. My exciting life. Before we get started, Ben, you know, you've got nothing better to do on a Saturday night. Before we get started, just for the people out there that might not know who you are, can you explain your involvement in pinball? Sure. Well, I started out in the kind of video game modding scene. I did a lot of things with Atari's video game consoles. I've been doing that for about 18 years now. And then And in 2009, I wanted to make my own pinball machine, so I bought a bunch of junky parts off Craigslist. I think it was like a high-speed board or play field and some of the things, and I made a pinball machine based off Bill Paxton, who is a very interesting actor who is now dead, unfortunately. Anyway, so I did that, and then I took it to the Midwest Gaming Classic, which is a show here in Wisconsin. And a lot of people were like, wow, that's cool, because there really hadn't been a lot of homebrew pinball at that time at all. I think maybe that the Superman that got turned into a Futurama, that probably predated my project. Okay. So anyway, but that's when I started meeting a lot of the people in the pinball industry, and that's also the same show where I met Charlie Emery of Spooky Pinball. Yeah, because you've got quite a technical background, right? Like, you're a tinkerer, you're, would you say, like an engineer, like a hardware engineer? Well, I didn't go to school for engineering, but I know enough to be dangerous. Okay. Yeah, it's kind of weird how that works. I started out as a graphic artist, but then my hobby in electronics took over my... A graphic artist, like... Graphic artist, yeah. Wow. I used to do, well, we have a brand of restaurants here in the Midwest called Culver's. I used to do, like, the layouts for the menu boards, like, all the food items. Although I never actually knew it was on the menu, right? It was like, I would do it, but I wouldn't read it, if that makes any sense. Yeah, okay. So I would still go into the store, and I'd be like, oh, what do I want? What do I want? It was a very strange separation there. But, no, but, you know, I was always interested in electronics. Like, when I was a kid, I was into electronics when I was a kid. And then when I was a teenager, I was into, like, independent filmmaking. Then I got back into electronics when I was in my early 20s, which is a better thing to be into, it would seem. Yeah. Definitely. Financially, it has been better. Yeah. So then I did a homebrew pinball, and then I started working with Spooky in, well, I guess 2013, technically, because that's when they started Spooky Pinball. Yeah. So that's kind of how I got my start. And then I'm on Pinside a lot as Ben Heck, you know, stirring up trouble, as it were. Yeah. So you were responsible for America's Most Haunted. You did the kind of like all the electronics behind that. You did the game rules. You spent a couple of years on that machine. Is that right? Yes. It was very much like TNA where I did almost everything except for the art. You know, I programmed it. I designed it. Although for production, Chuck had to take a lot of the stuff I did and make it more production suitable, whereas Scott Danesi was a lot better at making a more finished, producible machine than I had done. But, I mean, he works at Pip-Lite, so he knows a lot more about that stuff than I do. Yeah. Is that because he was using, you know, Jerry's system, or is that something else? Well, not just the system, but, you know, like, oh, to make this game easier to build, we'll have a plastic post, and then we'll have a plastic on top of it with a certain length of nut and screw and that kind of stuff. I still didn't know what I was doing in 2012 when I made America's Most Haunted. So Chuck, who had spent decades, Chuck has a really nice collection. He has such a nice collection that I appreciated so much he had to change his homeowner's insurance because of it. Because he was getting like $300 monster batches back in the day or like trading games for fix. So he's much, much better at building and fixing games. I'm more of an idea guy, whereas Scott was much better at the mechanical physicality of it, as is Scott. Okay. And you had a bit of an involvement with Rob Zombie as well. I think you were helping write or design the rules? More than a bit. Okay. Rob Zombie used an evolved version of the board set and software framework that America's Most Haunted had. America's Most Haunted was a complete mess under the hood. Rob Zombie was a slightly organized mess. I heard that's really popular in China at the moment. What? Oh, my board set? Yeah. I heard they love it down there. You know, it's kind of funny. I was actually, I was like ecstatic. I'm like, oh, my God, I've arrived. You've been cloned. I've been ripped off by the Chinese. When Mike said that, oh, no, it's not your board set, then I was like, yeah, it is. That's where it kind of, I was starting to get a little bit more upset. So it went from, because we know they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But, well, you know, it's like anything. It's like the denial is worse than the crime. But, I mean, you know, I still think that's kind of a good way to make pins. I do not believe in putting a computer inside of a pinball machine. I never will. A full computer. Okay, well, who's doing a full computer now? Is the, like, JCP has a full computer, right? Like, they've got a motherboard with a hard drive? Yeah, I mean, I think his system is probably the most, this is going to sound stupid, computery computer. Yeah. I mean, I believe he's still using, like, an Intel Atom. It's not, like, an all-in-one computer, but it's, like, a small ATX board. So, I mean, you know, you could take that board and put Windows on it if you wanted. Yeah. Whereas, camera, I'm trying to think what they use on TNA. I think it's, like, an $80 kind of, I believe it is an x86. Basically, it's, like, one of those really shrunk-down computers. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically running like some version of Linux, right? Yes, yes. Because Linux is free. Yes. Quote-unquote free. I've been trying to be friendlier to Linux. I mean, you know, I've been trying to learn more about it. I still make jokes about it, though. Is Stern doing the same thing? Like, is their spike system based off Linux as well? I couldn't tell you that, but I would assume that it is. I mean, because you've got to think, when they were making stuff like, Well, the Spike system, that was based off, I don't know, 2001, 2000 era, very old arm unit, basically, the Game Boy Advance. So you're talking about Sam, not Spike. You said Spike. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Sam. So, yeah, the White Stars, and they had Sam. They got a lot of years out of Sam. Yeah, as far as Spike's concerned, I can't say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure that it's going to have a Linux system. Actually, I know a lot of people complain about the node boards, but I think I probably like Stern's implementation the best, where they just have this nice board, and they've got the LEDs built into it for the backlight. It's very cost-reduced. I think people's problem is that in the past, they've had this big board with these big components on there, and when something breaks, they can take this one. Yeah, it's a cheap part, even though they might be paying someone like $100 to fix it, whereas this is kind of like surface-mounted stuff where it's just, you know, in so many layers, they just, you know, you keep $300 regardless of what the issue is. I would imagine that replacement node boards are probably what would be called like a profit center for Stern, which is fine because they're a company, they have to make profit. I don't know. I think there should be even less through-hole on it. Like when you saw that thing with the, what was it then, that issue with the node board where they had to put a wire, like a zip tie around it, because they had that TO220 package standing up, which is, you know, MOSFET, and it actually kills over and, you know, short out against something. So in that case, the fact that it was a through-hole component standing out of the board like a tombstone. Yeah. Now, if that was laying flat on the board, you'd be better off. Yeah. So, you know, well, no, if you think about it, like, so in that case, the through hole was physically a problem. Also, from a manufacturing standpoint, it's stupidly expensive because you have to pay someone. Well, they don't hand solder them, but they have to place all the parts by hand. And that's soldered by a robot versus a robot doing everything. I was like, Parker, Parker's the guy who designed our board set with me. You know, he was, he's been saying for years, he wants all service money. He's like, here, Chuck, here's the price of your board, which still was a really cheap board that we made. But here's how much cheaper it would be if it was all surface mount. I mean, it was like 30%. It was a huge difference. But, you know, pinball people want their ancient horse and buggy through a hole. So, okay, we got a little bit off track, but Rob Zombie, your involvement with that was... Well, Rob Zombie, the board set is basically the same board as America's Most Haunted. It just has some improvements. And then we hacked it to do color. So that was basically the only change there. But since someone else programmed it, David Fawzma, I had to actually, you know, port out my code into libraries and make it so someone else could understand it. Again, if you look at America's Most Haunted source code, it's a mess. But it works. Yeah. Right? No comments. Just only Ben can understand, and that's it, right? Oh, no, actually, it's very well commented. Okay. The organization, there's, like, no libraries, very few H files, because I was just doing something myself, you know? It wasn't really intended for other people to use versus P-Rock, which is incredibly well documented, and people understand it. It's also very expensive. But, you know, there's – but you also gain other advantages with it. no so with Rob Zombie Chuck did the play field it started out as that revenge zombies from Beyond the Grave or whatever and then we did some changes to that I was like I was like well let's do this this and this I mean it wasn't a huge amount but you know I was like oh we should put a loop here or whatever then so I did most of the script for that and then a lot of the rules and then I kind of handed it oh I also did all the storyboards for the display. So all the stuff you see on the display. You know, it's like a movie where you draw a sketch. Okay, here's what I want it to look like. So there's a piece of paper somewhere that you drew with like balls getting chopped off. Well, we did it all digitally. So we found... No, it is. We use Microsoft OneNote, which is like a note-taking software. Because what you can do, which David David Van Es and I, the animator guy, discovered, is if two people open the same online OneNote document, they can both edit it in real time or near real time. So I have like a Wacom, whatever they call that, tablet. I have one of those things on one of my computers. So we would actually sit there and we had like black squares digitally, which represented the aspect ratio of the screen. And then I'd be like, okay, balls drop down here. then it was like a storyboard then like next frame an axe comes in or whatever it is and then in the storyboards there's actually hair on the balls that detail can't be seen that's when you need the LCD or the goodness of the LCD right? Yes, yes and something else I also storyboarded all of Alice Cooper before I left. Okay, yeah I saw some of those storyboards when we did the interview with David Van Asch, we were kind of asking him about the process, and he kind of showed. And yeah, I can't say that I can give you an A-class or a 10 out of 10 for your drawings, but I understand they're just storyboards. All they have to do is get the point across. Yeah. Oh, granted, obviously I'm not the greatest storyboard artist. I think it was an interview with Bruce Campbell once, and he was talking about Evil Dead, and he was talking about how horrible Sam Raimi's storyboards were. like this god awful he's like oh that's supposed to be my hand huh and i'm like well if sam maybe can just scribble i can just scribble uh but that was that was what we did like so david and i would go through each mode or whatever and then we would just uh yeah we would basically draw digitally in real time well he doesn't have a whack-em whack-em i didn't whatever that thing is called so uh i would usually do the sketching and then he would do everything else around it so yeah we did that... Oh, when did we do most of the storyboards? Probably like last August and September, I want to say. Or maybe it was like September, October. Yeah. We don't have any balls being chopped off in that because Alice Cooper wanted to be more family friendly. Yeah. It's pretty cool seeing it come to life. I know it's taken them a lot of work to do all that because it's HD, but yeah. So there's some of my D in that game as well. Yeah. So it's a round off, I guess, the story about your history in pinball. You apparently had a game kind of in the pipeline with Spooky, but due to it being delayed and other reasons, you kind of left Spooky because you didn't want to, I guess, well, you can tell the story, I'm just mumbling through it. Well, I'm not going to tell you the whole story. No, I don't want to know the exact details, but, you know, obviously you don't work there anymore. Well, I mean, they still might finish it someday. I mean, we're still considering it. But no, for me it was like, Al Scouper was supposed to be last fall, and then it clearly wasn't going to be ready in time, so that's when TNA came on the scene, which was a huge success. So I think they could have ridden that one out even longer if they wanted. So then basically, yeah, Al Scouper got pushed into my spot, and then I'm like, oh, God, they're going to make this many TNAs and this many Al Scoopers. my game, when the hell, it's probably very much how Dennis Nordman feels about Elvira 3, which has been designed, like, for two years. It's just been shelved. And until it gets released, he won't make any royalties, so I'm sure that's probably why he's like, I'm gonna go to Deep Root. That's kind of how I felt. Like, I just didn't feel like, my game was delayed for a long time, and I didn't feel like there's any, we went through hell making America's Most haunted, but there was gold at the end of that rainbow? Well, not as much after taxes, but some. I actually pay taxes on my money I made off him. I'm not like Kevin Kulik. You don't have it buried in your backyard? He's got to have some of that still buried. Ah, 100%. He's just very good at acting Paul for the rest of his life. Well, of course he is, because he's gaming his state's welfare system. That's how it works. They probably still live together. His wife probably got divorced because he'll make more being divorced. Yeah. Funny. Wow, sorry. Oh, no, no, that guy's just a redneck douchebag. I mean, he who shall not be named, you know, had it right where he's like, he's got a pile of skulls in his mom's kitchen's counter. He does not have a license with Arnold Schwarzenegger. That's right. no but anyway going back to the other the other stuff so for me it was like yeah I mean I'd worked on I'd worked on Rob Zombie and then we did like a huge code update like last year like we camped out at Spooky for like a week that was probably like last Memorial weekend 2017 did a bunch of stuff and then we did the same thing like a huge like code session jam in December on Alice Cooper and I'm like, well, you know, to be quite frank, I was tired of working on someone else's games. You know, I mean, yeah. I mean, that's fine and dandy if you're getting paid like pretend to care money. Yeah. Again, not all royalties for me, you know. Pretend to care money. That's a good one. Pretend to care money. Everybody does it. Everyone does it for a living, right? Ultimately in the end. Yeah, so I don't know. I felt that it was a really good Whitewood. It was, you know. actually, Wysnow on Pinside, that guy, I'm actually friends with him in real life. And he's kind of a character, but he does really know pinball, so he had a lot of suggestions like, well, here's why American Bulls want to shot too fast. All the shots are at the same depth basically at the play field. So if you do this and change the depth of the shots and, you know, like there's some Trudeau games. I know he's like a soccer center, bring him up, but, you know, Like Kongo is a good example. There's a lot of different depth to the shots on the play field. So it didn't just play like a spinny loop game. It actually had a lot of variety. And so I was kind of going for that. I was working on a toy that, in hindsight, would have probably been too complicated, but it could be rethemed into something else. Are you talking about Alice Cooper or a game that didn't come out that you... The game that I finished and the license that it was going to be, I will never tell. so well I won't say it on a podcast just have to get you drunk at one of the expos or something no it doesn't work I am too accomplished of a drunk for that trick professional drunk I can tell you like a really dark story about my life or something but although every one of my office knows what it is you know But no, it's just like, you know, if you say something online, then it's out there, right? Of course. And if you tell someone that you know something but you're not telling, that's just as bad because then people just badger you about knowing. Kind of like this Mafia game. I actually saw this Mafia game that got announced today. I saw a video of it in March, but I kind of like, I couldn't say anything. Not that there's anything much to say, but shall we kind of discuss that since it's the the only really new story this week. Yeah, sure. So, a company calling themselves Team Pinball, very creative name, have released information about a pinball machine called The Mafia. It is limited to 100 units. It has a US price of $7,500. I believe there's 35 of them going to the US, and I guess the rest to Europe and whoever else wants them. It is running a Raspberry Pi. Yep, saw that. Yep. So you're the technical guy, so besides being dirt cheap, what's the advantage of running a pinball machine on a Raspberry Pi? Because they're super cheap, right? They're like 30 bucks, I'm guessing even less if you buy 100 of them. Yeah, I'm sure their main cost is probably on that, I'm looking at that driver board right now, that probably, that driver board probably costs them at least, I don't know, $120 U.S. in quantity, if I had to guess. The physical, what really makes a circuit board expensive is its physical size, even more so than what's on it. Why is that? It just adds up the cost. It's like buying land. It's like the real estate. It's like, oh, it's 12 inches by 10 inches. So if you make it smaller, it's cheaper, but obviously. Actually, oh, no, they've got a bunch of through-hole parts. I mean, it's pretty recently sized. I'm just saying, guaranteed, they spend like five times on that board what a Raspberry Pi costs. But that's just how it works. Not a big deal. Yeah, one thing that makes me a little trepidatious is that they have a, it looks like they are using the audio port on the Raspberry Pi, the 3.5 millimeter headphone jack. And that's not really the best way to get audio out of a Pi. It has some noise issues. because on the system on the chip, the audio is kind of a hack. Well, the audio on my board set was also a hack. But, no, it was. It's like a system timer PWM hack. It's a hack, hack, hack. It was also cheap. But, no, like with the Raspberry Pi, you know, you'd do better to use the HDMI for audio, or you can hook up using something called the I2S protocol. So what's the issue? Is noise easy and crackly, or just not as... like the bit rate isn't as good, or what's the issue? It's not really a bit rate issue because it's analog. It's just there are better ways to get audio out of a Pi, so it's not the highest quality way to get audio out of a Pi. Okay, okay. Yeah, like we were working on a Pi-based system, as a follow-up. Parker and I were, and we were going to use I2S, which is inter-integrated sound, which is basically how, like, it's basically a digital bit stream of sound. You can, like, people who, like, do serious audio products or projects with their Raspberry Pi, they would probably use the I2S protocol. Okay. So instead of, you know, using a PWM channel to create audio over an analog jack, you're basically sending like this is technically a 32-bit stream of bits into another audio decoder, which then decodes it and amplifies it. It's a better way to do it. So I guess that was the first thing that stuck out to me is like, oh, they're using the – like any Pi enthusiast would see that and be like, oh. It's not the end of the world, but that was the first thing that I noticed. Oh, and they've got a switching power supply and a transformer in there. Interesting. well pretty much everyone uses switchers now like stern just uses a what 50 volt switching jamico 12 amp i believe they actually use the same psu that spooky does well they're probably using that big coil i'm sorry the big transformer for the coils and then the power supply above it look at the colors here yeah yeah so you can see black red black yellow so that's 5 volt 12 volt and ac in so yeah i So, yeah, they're using the switching power supply for logic and sound and everything else, and the big one's probably just driving the coils. That's why I got you on, man, so you can just look at these pictures and tell me exactly what's driving what. That's awesome. Well, I'd definitely say that they did not rip this system off from me. Is that why you're so sad today? Like, you said you were so happy when I did it. I was happy until he said he didn't. You know, what do they say? you could have a whole playground full of children, but a mother knows her child's cry, even in the cacophony of noise. So for me, I don't want to say I was intimate with that board because that would sound gross, but it's the same kind of thing. I knew that thing inside and out. So even if he jumbles up all the parts, I can still say that's my system because I can say, oh, look, I see this wire going from this part of the chip to another device here, and that's how I did the DMD, blah, blah, blah. Does it almost ruin the hobby or your enjoyment of a pin when you have to work that much on it? I don't own America's Most Haunted. I don't want to see that goddamn thing again. Do you think anyone can do that, though? Do you think Keith Elwin can enjoy Iron Maiden? Does he have to pretend that he likes it? Most designers don't even have their own games that I know of. It's usually the programmers. Well, programmers also need better players. But, no, I would say if you're not completely sick of something by the time you're done with it, you didn't work on it hard enough. But maybe that's just me. But, you know, for me, the fun, well, fun's not really the right word. The challenge is doing it. And once it's done, I'm like, well, whatever, I don't care. I got my money in the bank. I don't need the plywood. Chuck actually gave me an AMH. It, like, literally fell off the back of a truck. See, mafia. I don't know. I don't know if you have that term or phrase in the U.K., but the top of the back of the truck is code. We're in Australia, by the way, not the U.K. Oh, I'm sorry. Come on, Ben. Know your audience. Come on. Yeah. They had an insurance damage unit. And he's like, well, I can indefinitely. So basically it was destroyed. Yeah. Technically destroyed. So he's like, well, you can hang on to this one, but you can't sell it. And I'm like, oh, man, I don't want anything I can't sell. So I just used it to do my final code update. And I'm like, oh, here, you can have this back, Chuck. Yeah, that's how Heartless, I don't see it as like, oh, it's my game, it's my baby. I'm like, there's $7,000 sitting there. I thought you were doing this for the love of pinball. Come on. So they, you know, this mafia pinball machine is using. I love pinball, but I also like money. And you use money to buy more pinballs, right? I can't take a pinball machine and give it to the bank and say give me a house see that's what I love about selling things and getting rid of stuff I try to be like an anti-hoarder it's like compressing a file but in this case you're taking this 300 pound thing that takes up how much space in your house and you're compressing it down to a number with no weight in a bank's computer system anyway It's great, yeah. I mean, the other day I opened up my closet and I saw like 25 or so Xbox 360 games. And I remember the argument I had in my head when, you know, the Xbox One came out. I'm like, I'm never going to play the Xbox 360 again, really. But I'm like, I had fun playing all these games and, you know, I might get a couple of hundred bucks for these games right now, but the sentimental value means more to me. And then, you know, I opened up that drawer for the first time in how many years. I'm like, well, these games mean like fucking nothing to me. and I can't even sell them for like $20 all up. I'd miss that chance to just get rid of it when it was worth something to somebody. Oh, just wait 20 years and it'll become like nostalgic or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had that same problem. Like once the game console generation is over, I never touch it again. I mean, I like classic stuff. I really like my Atari 800 and my Nintendo and stuff like that. But like Xbox 360, it's like, why don't, what's the point? And like you said, I have this whole box of games, but you know what I did? I bought two identical shelves for my living room, and I didn't realize how big they were, and I was having trouble filling them up. So I'm like, okay, I'm never going to play these games, but I'm going to take some of my favorite 360 games and put them on the shelf because I like them. Basically, it was like just a wall-eye. Like the fun of it is the wall-eye. But then I realized I had misplaced my Horizon Zero Dawn disc, and I'm like, damn it, that's something I might actually want to play again. Yeah, I don't know. It's weird. Like you said, there's a cycle where they start to gain more money and the Wii, the original Wii console, is still super cheap. Well, it probably always will be because they made, what, $110 million of those things? Yeah, but I mean, GameCubes are worth more, but a Nintendo Wii is a GameCube. Like, you can play GameCube games in it. You can plug in a GameCube controller. Right, but they made 110 million Wii's and, like, 20 million GameCubes. Yeah. Do people want to play the game, or do they just want to say, I have a GameCube, because they said the Wii's both? I think it works two ways. Nostalgia works in 20-year cycles. It's whatever 30-year-olds liked when they were 10, and whatever 50-year-olds liked before they got married. That's why we have these guys returning their basements into bars. Like, oh, I remember when I was going out to the bar and trying to get laid, and now my basement looks like a bar. Oh, happy times for, like, a 30-year-old who's like, oh, I got my first mortgage, but I can reminisce about the N64. Like, N64 is expensive. Like, Nintendo is starting to, like, NASA is starting to, like, pass into being too old, just like the Atari. Like, 18 years ago when I first started, Atari 2600 was hot. Like, those games are going, like, some of them are going for hundreds and hundreds of dollars, but now it's dead because all those guys are, like, my age or older, and they're too worried about their third wife and their kids' dental bills and mortgages. Yeah. Right? So, yeah. So, right, like N64, everyone loved it, but it didn't sell that great. So, again, just like there's only like 26 million of those. So, they're worth more than the PlayStation 1, which there is five times that many. Isn't that crazy when we're talking about there isn't that many of them, but there's 26 million of them? whereas for this company to try and sell out, they have to limit their demotion production to 100 units. I guess there's a massive price discrepancy and the hobby's small, but it's just weird to talk about so many things. I think it's funny. If you released a $60 video game that was as unfinished as your average pinball machine, the video game community would murder you. They would literally come to your house and murder you. I mean, I don't know if you follow the video game community, but they're voracious. It's like, oh, my God, my $60 video game, which hasn't increased in price in 12 years and has been $50 for 28 years, but I don't understand inflation, so why do they keep taking stuff out of the games? They go on holy crusades about that stuff. For a $60 game. I know. I remember the whole Alien. Was it Alien? Colonial Marines? Yes, that's the one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a big mess. But my point is the pinball enthusiasts, they have the patience of Job. It's insane. Which I guess is good, but of course I would also say it's a lot easier to build a pinball machine than to program one, which is why you see the rules taking a while to be completed. So, I mean, everybody does it. Yeah, and I mean, this pinball machine, you know, I'm not sure if you watched the promo video, but... Oh, the Mafia one? Yeah, I did. They didn't have any wide shots of the playfield, which wasn't a good sign. What do you think they're trying to hide there? The fact that there's not much on it. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can see... Yeah. You can kind of see, there's three pop bumpers, two swings and two slippers, and a spinner in the middle, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's... I mean, looking at the playfield, it's fairly simple. But I don't know. I mean, they'll probably sell them, you know? Well, there's 100, so all you need is 100 people to want to put their money down and... Yeah, they probably sold at least 100 Woe Nellies, I'm sure. I mean, I don't think that game sold that well, but again, if you have to sell 100, you should be fine. There's a fine line, though, between something that is for a collector, like Woe Nelly kind of had a certain kind of presentation that, you know... I'm not interested in buying it. It was retro pinball. It had a woman with big boobs and a bunch of, like, things on it. So the art was retro for pinball. So it was definitely an old man theme, as I would call it. Do you know what's weird about the art on this pinball machine? The guy in the middle, I'm guessing he's meant to be the mafia boss. Right. He's holding a Tommy gun, but he's holding it, like, right in the middle of his body. Don't people usually put it to the side so the recall doesn't, like, smack you in the chest? Oh, yeah. I didn't even think... Oh, that is a Tommy gun. Yeah. We're going to have to totally redo the art now. Well, as an American, I'm obviously intimately familiar with guns, and you're right. First of all, you couldn't hold it that way, or it would be incredibly awkward, and if it's a machine gun, it would fall out of your hands. Yeah, but it's like all those gangster movies where they pull the gun out and they hold it sideways. I think there was some movie in the 90s where someone did that, and then everyone started doing it in real life, and the cops loved it because it meant the gangsters couldn't shoot straight. No, that's a real thing. Oh, the gangster thing where you hold a gun by the face. Yeah, real-life gangsters started doing that because they saw it in the movies, and it turns out it's a terrible way to aim a gun. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I like how they've got the lights going around the round magazine clip thing or whatever. Yeah, it's kind of weird, though. Honestly, I'm not sure if mafia is a very good theme because it's kind of a real thing. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know. it's one of those things like American Pinball has gone down that route where you want something that's recognizable but you don't want to pay license, you don't want to be limited by anyone's what you can and can't do. Joe Balcer had a term for that, I can't remember what it was called, like from Gottlieb like with gold wings and class of 1812, I can't remember what it was, it was like, not fake license, it was more clever than that. Well it's kind of like Medieval Madness did the same thing, right? An Attack from Mars. Yeah, Medieval Madness is just an unlicensed Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And Attack from Mars is kind of like that Mars movie. Was that around the same time? Mars Attacks actually came, the movie Mars Attacks, came out after Attack from Mars. Okay. So, I think Attack from Mars is probably a little bit more generic with its science fiction stuff, whereas, yes, you know, Medieval Madness is just Holy Grail, basically. which is fine. Do you think more pinball machine manufacturers will go down that route in the coming years because, well, one, all the licenses might get kind of gold up by certain players in the market? Dave, that's already happened. It's just like the housing market right now. There's so many people looking for pinball licenses that licenses are going up in price. And if you're like, I don't know, Sony, and you've got three companies trying to get Ghostbusters, guess what? You can jack up the price. Or if you're an employee and you have five companies trying to hire you, the price keeps going up until the other four companies say no, and then you get the top price. And that is definitely happening with licenses right now. Like, I mean, the rumors about what Stern paid for Beatles doesn't surprise me. I honestly kind of think that could be a hill to die on. I think that's probably maybe getting into too expensive. I wouldn't take a Beatles license pin if you handed... No, not the pinball machine itself. I wouldn't want to work on that. It would be so restrictive and so expensive. But it's going to be a Super LE, so they'll get their money back, maybe. Yeah, well, I mean, we kind of saw what happened with Batman, and I think Batman sold... Well, you don't really know how many premiums they sell, but they sell that on all the LEs, and more than they thought they were going to sell. Well, if I was Gary Stern, I'd be like, I'm going to calculate the cost of obtaining this license and bake that into what I'm charging for the Super LEs. Boom, cost covered. Isn't that a smart thing to do, though? It's easy. Business 101, make your customers pay your expenses. Yeah, I mean, for some of these smaller manufacturers, if they were kind of arguing over the license and someone's trying to bid more and say it costs, you know, $200,000 more and you're planning to make, you know, I don't want to do the maths, but you just say, okay, it's $1,000 more for this Timor machine because that's how much the license costs. Like, do you think that people would actually get upset about that or that's just like, okay, well, that's what you have to do to get the license? Do you mean if the cost of games went up to cover the licenses? Yeah, just, would you say, like, let's just use Jersey Jack as just a random reference, you know? Actually, I actually have an answer for that. The cost of the game doesn't go up, but what's in the game goes down. I mean, there's a reason why there's not much in Stern Star Wars. It's because all that money is in Disney's pocket, not on the play field. I'd probably like stepping on toes saying that, but it's just basic math. Well, I think people kind of figure that out, but what I'm trying to get at is that, do you think it would have been better and the community would have maybe appreciated it more if Stern Star Wars was $1,000 more expensive on every front, and then it was the game that maybe Steve Ritchie wanted, or, I'm just guessing here, you know, but they could put more into the game. I think Stern is wise to have a street-level game because I think there is a point where operators are just going to peace out. And I think that's why Stern's like, even if we have to strip a lot of features, we want to have the cheaper version of the game. And then, yes, you have the LEs or the Super LEs or whatever they have now for the people that want to spend the money. Because, you know, I mean, it's changed. Like, you know, if you have some rich dude wanting to fill up his McMansion basement with pins and he'll happily drop 8K on Star Wars because it reminds him of being a kid, take his money, just like Apple. Like, they make really well-designed, completely average computers. So, yay, take people's money. You're a PC guy. I'm too, don't worry. So, okay, so you're talking about nostalgia, and you're talking about, like, the 20-year loop. So, you know, what do you think is the... I think... I'm going to go around and buy up all the Space Jams and Hooks, because if millennials ever start buying pins, they love those movies. Hook, okay. Rufio? Yeah. Yeah? Rufio. Space Jam, though. I mean, the theater, I mean, I thought it was okay, but I don't know. It was too long. Even when I was, like, 15, I was like, this movie's too long. I was a film snob even back then. I think Hook was the first book I bought and also the first book that I didn't read past the first couple of pages. I was a big Hook fan. Hook was almost the most expensive movie ever made, but it wasn't. Is it Waterworld? No, no, no. It was the most expensive movie until Terminator 2 came out. and they're like, we are no longer the most expensive movie ever made. People aren't going to write about that in every article. It's like Roger Rabbit was the most expensive movie ever made, but they kept the budget a secret, so the story would be the cool graphics, not the fact that it's the most expensive movie ever made, because as soon as they find out, like Waterworld. Yeah. That's the only thing that people talk about. Right. So, yeah. All these people getting into pinball is causing the difficulty of obtaining and the cost of licenses to rise. So that's part of doing business, but it can be tough. Spooky has not really done a movie license or anything like that yet. They've done mostly the bands. Yeah, it's tough. Or then you have something like Alien, or Big Lebowski is the same way, where it's like, Oh, we got the rights to Alien. Oh, we just get the word Alien. Oh, everything else is extra? Oh, shit. We're out of business. We fucked up. Yeah. And, oh, Predator. Let's just lie and say we have the license. They did a really good job of making an Alien pinball that couldn't include Sigourney Weaver. So that is to be commended. I don't know. I just feel like sometimes the heavier it's tied to the license, the more that you can disappoint people. You know, as Zombie Yeti, I think, said on our podcast, there's just different levels of hate. You know, everyone hates something. There's just different levels of it. And, you know, the reaction to when Star Wars came out was just, I guess, a proof that you can't... It's hard to please people when it belongs to their childhood. You know, Ghostbusters, almost the same thing. Oh, well, you had the same problem with the reaction to The Last Jedi. I mean, I think Star Wars has become a religion. And you know if you start if you well I want to if you do things that you know they don like they going to turn on you and then they become like Protestants or something or you know Yeah I mean yeah No no no I saying it like yes Like there a certain point where something is so sacrosanct a word I've used twice in this podcast, or so indebly tied to someone's childhood that they will have a very strong feeling about it. Yeah, it's weird. Like, I mean, if you would have gone back to, like, 2015 when Force Awakens came out and said, in a few years, Stern's going to have Iron Maiden and Star Wars pinball. Guess which one people will be more excited for? You would have never guessed the answer. Or ACDC. Or Metallica. Nobody gave a fine fuck about Metallica until they saw the art. Do you think that also goes in cycles? Like, do you think, like, people yearn for originality in shots like Iron Maiden and some other pinball machines, and then people yearn for like, oh, there really hasn't been a simple game done right for a while and then TNA comes along. And then if people keep on doing this, say there's like the next 20 pins aren't Steve Ritchie pins, then Steve Ritchie comes out. And everyone's like, oh my gosh, like slow, like left ramp, right ramp, left orbit, right orbit. Like this is what we've been waiting for. It's like a cycle of people just getting bored of the same thing coming out, perhaps. Well, I think TNA did retro the right way. you know Chuck likes to joke that people think that if there's no ramps the game is a thousand dollars cheaper or it should be and that's not really how it works so the same people were like oh they should remake Fathom I mean that game would be so cheap to make nowadays right it's like wrong all those inline drops cost a lot of money but no like you know TNA it kind of well it doesn't shoot like an old game but it kind of looks and feels like an old game but it's very fast and modern. And yeah, it was very smart. I don't think Chuck charged enough for it, but that's a completely different topic. Yeah, so I think maybe maybe even more so than dialed in, like TNA was kind of like a breath of fresh air for the industry because, you know, it didn't have a cell phone to piss people off, which is so stupid. Everyone on Pinside using their cell phone to complain about the fact the game is based on a cell phone. Not the cell phone, into the jeans. It's his high-waisted jeans. That's what was really... The thing I can't get around is that guy looks just like Captain America. It's like, oh, just draw Chris Evans holding a phone. Like, next thing you see that game, think of Captain America. Without muscles, though, right? Right, right. Well, just like, remember like those old Nintendo games where they're like, just rip off the cover of Predator and that's kind of... Okay. Yeah. Okay. Makes me want to look at the whole thing of that. Yes. I mean, the thing is you can't really make games cheap again. I mean, what's Thunderbirds? Like $5,000 and it's made in China? I mean, what's the deal? Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, it's not that much cheaper. It's like, hey, you can get it for a couple hundred bucks less than an Iron Maiden Pro. Well, remember, Stern is using like a dimple press they've had for 40 years, whereas Mike is, well, businessman, he's taking all of the startup costs and rolling it into the cost of the pin. So, I mean, I would think it would probably be more competitive over time, but right now you're not paying for the pin. You're paying for all the tooling. Well, he's going to have to change his board set, I guess, if he wants to bring out a pin with an LCD screen, right? So there's just kind of like more development costs. Do you know what I mean? Like he's developed a pinball machine for, you know, maybe one or two machines that he'll bring out, right? Like surely he can't keep on releasing D&D pinball machines. Well, I may sound like a Luddite and completely hypocritical because I was ripping on through-hole components, but I kind of feel like LCD screens are like... I don't know, what's the analogy? It's kind of a trap because it's so much... Well, it's not more difficult, but it's more time-consuming. Like, you actually have to trade content. It becomes very much like you're making a video game and a pinball machine. Well, it depends on what you got on there. I mean, this mafia pinball machine, from the little footage you're seeing, it's just kind of ticking through the score. So that wouldn't be insanely hard to program, right? I mean, and it'd be cheaper than a DMD, right? Like, it's just like a $10 LCD screen, and you just have to create the animation of the score ticking through. Yes, it is cheaper than a DMD. But, again, yes, if there's simple graphics. But then people complain that the graphics are too simple. So it's like you save money on every unit as far as the DMD is concerned. Although who knows what Stern was getting them for. I mean, I know what we were getting them for on American's Lauded, but then, yes, you're having to pay someone to do all this artwork. And, like, yeah, I know, like, with Alice Cooper, the amount of work that went into filling that LCD screen was more than Chuck had anticipated. I mean, I wasn't surprised. Well, you've got the artist drawing everything, and then you've got David Van Aerst painstakingly animating everything to make it into a video, right? Yep. And like with Alice Cooper, it's a license that does not have any assets to it. I mean, yeah, maybe you have some music videos or something, but not like there's a movie. So everything on that screen has to be created. and that's another shortcut you get with a license is that you, well, assuming that you pay for it because a lot of times it's not even included, but you get all the video or whatnot. Just like, you know, you see that, oh, look, there's some Star Wars clips. But on the other hand, I'm like, okay, as a pinball company, you're paying God knows how much for a video clip of Yoda sitting on a log that we've all seen a hundred times in the last year. It's like, oh my God, thank you for reminding me that Yoda lives in a swamp. Telling you off for losing the ball. I mean, do you think there's a massive time lag with, you know, because companies are just starting to integrate kind of LCD screens now-ish, you know, in the last couple of years, but, you know, they've already obtained the license for certain pinball machines, you know, years ago, and they might not have known the issues that come with developing for an LCD screen. So do you think it'll take, like, you know, three or four or five years for all the companies to catch up and know that when they obtain a license, you know, this is what they're getting with it, and this is how they're going to implement the LCD screen with it. Well, yeah, I mean, what used to happen with pinball is that you would get the toy license. You know, you get the image of the characters, and you get the audio, in case you want your, you know, your He-Man action figure to say, by the power of Grayskull, you know, so you get audio and, you know, the toy likenesses. But now, yes, it's more complicated because you're asking for full motion video from the movie, which may or may not be part of the deal. And like Beatles, I'm sure they've got somebody at Stern slaving away, making all these like kind of reproduction yellow submarine animations. And well, think about it. Like Stern started hiring IT people like mad in the last couple of years because, you know, Jerry Stern's been doing it a long time. I'm sure he looked at all these screens like, oh, my God, that's going to be so much work. So he pushed it back as far as he could, and then he hired up to get it done. So, yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess like Deadpool as well, which is rumored to come out pretty soon. They went the route of the comic book versus the movie. Yeah, I don't think that's going to work for them. It's going to be like X-Men, 10K by Christmas. Well, think about it, like, all anyone cares about is the Ryan Reynolds Deadpool. And then even the second movie, it didn't really stick in the cultural zeitgeist like the first one did. It's hard to do that, right? It's hard to be out there and outrageous twice, right? Yeah, yeah. I think it also didn't make as much, and it's kind of, it wasn't a surprise. But, of course, the first time, you know, Stern wouldn't have even been interested in a Deadpool license because nobody expected that movie to really do anything, the first movie at least. Well, it's like Guardians of the Galaxy After Number 2 comes out. You know, like, make sure there's something else coming out. It doesn't become a forgotten franchise. Well, yeah, another thing that happens is the studios will want you to always make it based off whatever is new, right? So if there's, like, a new movie coming out, they'll be like, oh, it needs to be based off this new movie. It's like, well, we don't want it to be based off the remake of the thing with Mary Elizabeth Winstead. We want the Kurt Russell thing. but you know they've got this new movie coming out it should be the new movie yeah although I'm sure I'm sure Sony probably asked Stern to do the new Ghostbusters remake I was just about to say that I mean Gary Stern is probably like ha ha ha no effing way I mean I mean the fact that it has a bit of number two just the it was funny because you know number two is is not very good at all compared to to number one oh I think I think the 2016 reboot of Ghostbusters was superior to Ghostbusters 2. I think Ghostbusters 2 is a piece of crap. Yeah. I mean, the only bit that they got in the pinball machine is the Scolari Brothers, which everyone hates because it doesn't add any fun to the pinball machine. So it's quite fitting that, you know, the only reference to number two is the thing that people hate. My favorite part in Ghostbusters 2 was the fake commercial where Janine's like, Oh, no, it's that darn ghost again. Why did he leave us alone? A short of course, the original is a classic. That's the thing. It's just like you have to compare things to... You know what I mean? Like, it's not a bad movie on its own. It's just that you know that Ghostbusters, you know, the original one exists. And that's just like, you know, when something like The Mafia comes out, like if this was released by Stern, or as you said, if this was like a video game, people would... Well, they had Sopranos, right? Yeah, exactly. And, you know, people... Because the new pinball machine, the new bar is, hey, if they're not ripping anyone off, these guys are good guys, let's support them, you know, like, they're not running away from things. Clearly they've done this with their own money, which is good. That's what, we did it spooky, like, Chuck used his savings to do it, and I designed the game pro bono against a royalty when it shipped. so I worked on Ghost Squad or America's Most Honored for like two years before I saw one red cent yeah so what machines do you have now Ben do you still have a couple of Timberland machines sold them all all of them yep I sold them and I put the money in the stock market and then I bought a house nice I don't care I had a really nice attack from Mars but then I knew the remake was coming so like Martha Stewart insider trading I got out And then, strangely enough, I kind of did the best of my coworkers. I was like, you know what? I'm going to sell Attack from Mars and just leave the old ratty space shuttle. And they're like, no, you're not. And I'm like, just watch me. But then I actually sold the space shuttle, too, because, oh, man. Actually, I think it was the same guy that bought my Attack from Mars. And I posted it on Craigslist at probably too high of a price, and he paid it. And I'm like, I had to put it on my poker face. And I'm like, okay. People like to say pinball machines aren't investments. BS. If I buy something and sell it for more than it's worth later on, that's better than an investment because I can't play with my money in the bank, but I can play a pinball machine. If pinball machines didn't hold their value so well, the hobby would be dead. Exactly. If you think about everything else, like hot tubs, jet skis, boats, they're just holes in the ground you throw money into. You've been a pinball machine, you buy it, you play it for a few years, and you sell it for 80% of what you got, worst case. That's awesome. You can't do it. No other hobby or toy has that same advantage. Maybe motorcycles, assuming you don't crash it. That's a big reason why I love them all is that I don't feel like I'm wasting money because I feel like if I want to get out, I can get out and, you know, relatively unscathed. I mean, if you can afford one game, you can afford every game, because you just keep, you know, stalling it and buying something new. Do you think, though, that the risk is that, you know, with all of this, all of these new manufacturers, I mean, you know, just this morning... Oh, a crash? Yeah, or some kind of correction, I guess, a crash or a correction, whichever way you want to say it. I mean, there will come a point where a lot of these older collectors sell everything and move to Florida to die. What is that point? When do you think people stop playing pinball? Was it like 60? You see a lot of 50-year-olds in the hobby, but pushing past 60... It'll be a while. I think of Brian Kelly. I don't know. He's on the forums. I know Brian Kelly very well, and he loves pinball, but he's kind of getting to the point where he's like, I don't really care anymore. I don't know. I mean, I guess I've reached that at, like, age 42. You're way ahead of your time. Right. That's why I have a more pessimistic view about it. I mean, I think it is important to, yeah, I mean, you know, you do, a lot of people, like, have their kids playing it, but honestly, like, most kids do not grow up in basements with pinball machines. You know, that's a very small percentage. So I think, you know, like with Stern, having affordable games that can be put on location to keep people interested is very important because, you know, if you don't, like Harley has the same problem. All the old people are dying and the new people don't care. The younger people don't care. And actually that's hurting motorcycle manufacturers right now. See, we brought up motorcycles again. And it will eventually affect pinball. So, yeah, you can have people salivating and coming in their pants about Munsters, but a 30-year-old doesn't care about that. I don't even think of 40-year-olds. I don't know. I've never heard that. I don't get it. I mean, I remember watching that on reruns when I was a kid, but it's so old. Oh, man. Whatever. Well, you know, it might be the whole Addams Family thing. Like, hey, Addams Family was popular, and this is kind of like the Addams Family, so, you know. The thing came out at the same time as the movie, which was a pretty popular movie in 1991. Yeah. I mean, I think all they've got now is a bunch of the people that are still alive from the show just go around to conventions and meet people that... Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's their only involvement. It's just the kid, right? Butch Peel or not Butch Peel? Butch Peel. Yeah, Butch Peel from J.J.P. I'm not editing that out. It's Butch something. Yeah, something. I hope Butch Peel's listening to have a go. When he's not spending time doing engineering and writing the manuals for JTP, he was around as one of the members of the Munsters. Yeah, he's like, wait, you were on the Munsters? Like, ah, I don't care. He's playing autograph. I'm sorry, Butch. Butchatrick. Close, close enough. Oh my gosh. I think he's the only one that's left. Let's quickly go through the rumoured titles, and this is just after this week in Pinball. So we've already done Deadpool and Munsters and Beatles, talked about them. Steve Ritchie's original theme possibly Black Knight 3000 or something based around that well that's not an original theme well you know yeah true does anyone have a trademark on that? Americans Most Wanted 2 wouldn't be an original theme because it's based off something people would be buying it because they liked the first one or some people liked it at least Black Knight 3000 would be cool it would be cool if it was like give me your money beat the Black Knight I mean, I've heard rumors. I mean, he's definitely earned it. He definitely kind of said and announced that he's working, after Star Wars, he said, I'm having fun working on an original theme. He didn't say what it was, but, you know, Black Knight or something based around that is the rumor. Stern wanted TNA, and they didn't get it. So I would think that... They want a TNA as in they tried to buy it off of Scuttony's team? Okay. And also, you know, dialed in has done well. So I'm sure Stern is like, hmm, the original team could work. What do you think a total nuclear annihilation by Stern Pimble would have looked like? You know, more expensive, less features, more features, like, you know, a different cabinet, not a Stern cabinet. What does that look like? I wouldn't even begin to know. Okay. I didn't know that I didn't know if that was public knowledge Maybe it would have that redneck guy in it who would be like Welcome to the future Shoot the whale walker to blow up the world Oh man These stern guys are going to kick me in the balls I always keep wondering at what point are they going to start kicking me in the balls at conventions but so far they're still nice to me So I guess I haven't found the line yet, but I'm working on it. Well, when do you start working at Deep Root Pinball? You're the only pinball person that doesn't have a job at the moment, right? I don't think I would want to be a part of that, even if I was asked. Okay. I'm going to be kind of – that's where I will, like, stop saying things. Okay. I'll say that. Superman – I will say, though, I'm very disappointed, though, that he is doing Bible Adventures because he knows that was my dream theme and whatever. Well, maybe that's why he's doing it. Maybe it's like, you know when you're a child and you like a girl at school, but you'd be really mean to her to get her to, that's how you think that you get her to like you? Maybe he's doing Bible adventures, so you're like, hey, Robert, let's work together and let's make Bible adventures like the greatest pinball machine of all time. Yeah, well, I'm not, I don't want to comment on that too much. Okay. Superman 1978 didn't some guy on Pinside say that was the dumbest theme ever like Odin or Lar it's like Superman was great there's a guy on Pinside saying everything everything that you want to be said about pinball some random person is saying it on Pinside right that's supposed to be Stern right yeah Stern I'm still going through there's going to be so many of them Beetlejuice what do you think about that yeah Yeah. I haven't heard that. That does seem like it would have a lot of pin possibilities, like cool toys. If they could license a soundtrack. I mean, I'm actually old enough to remember that the soundtrack for Beetlejuice was just as popular as the movie. I only remember the one song, the Shake, Shake, Shake, Senora song. Was there many besides that? Well, okay, yeah, you're right. That's the only one I can think of. There's a lot of movies where the soundtrack is more successful than the movie, like Dangerous Minds with Michelle Pfeiffer, Toys, Robin Williams, The Bodyguard. Beetlejuice would be very, what's that word in Hollywood for when they put all the shit, toy-o-letic? So Beetlejuice would be very pin-o-letic. Although I think it's a bit old. Although they keep threatening to make a new Beetlejuice, so maybe it would be new again but yeah well I mean it's old as in like irrelevant is that what you're kind of saying so David David Van Es and I were having a conversation about this the other day regarding licenses and I don't think it really matters how successful the movie was it matters how well it's stuck into the cultural zeitgeist and I used the word zeitgeist twice so now I'm like well no example Beverly Hills Cop made more money than Ghostbusters in 1984. Okay. Which one of those movies do people still care about? Not the last movie of 1984. They care about Ghostbusters. Come on. Beverly Hills Cop is still, like, in people's minds, surely. Not like Ghostbusters. Yeah, no, like, of course not like Ghostbusters. Yeah, yeah. Or, uh... But more than Beetlejuice and The Munsters, right? Wizard of Oz was destroyed at the box office by Gone with the Wind but what's the movie, do people go around quoting Gone with the Wind but they say like you're not in Kansas anymore Wizard of Oz was a failure at the time but it's the one that stuck in people's minds and the collective unconsciousness of our culture so I guess the thing with Beetlejuice is it doesn't seem like a movie that's really escaped its era It wasn't like evergreen or like a Forrest Gump. Huge smash hit in 1994. But what's the movie from 94 everyone talks about? Pulp Fiction. See? I mean, it's, I don't know. I think this, you know. There's no Pulp Fiction like, I was in Japan, they had the Bubba Gump shrimp-like restaurant, though. There's no Pulp Fiction $5 take-away. Yeah, that's true. But, I mean, if you're talking about, like, pinball people who also, you know, that Venn diagram, there's also a lot of movie buffs in there. You know, movie buffs don't care about Forrest Gump, they care about Pulp Fiction. Yeah. And it's weird that there's also, like, a Wizard of Oz crossover because, you know, the Wizard of Oz is, I think, sold pretty damn well, considering, like, you know, the general pinball crowd. They've sold one of those. Yeah. The general pinball crowd are kind of like, you know, like, you know, I want to be Manly Man and I want to drink beer and, you know, Wizard of Oz. That's the girl. Until their wife saw it. Yeah, yeah. Or Big Lebowski. Like, Coen Brothers made Fargo one best picture, and then they made Big Lebowski, which was a flop. Now, what movie do people talk about? They don't talk about Fargo. They talk about Big Lebowski. Yeah, but then Fargo was made into a TV series as well, so there's, like, different answers for you guys. I guess our point is, I think a good license to go after would be something that was, like, an inexpensive or less expensive, like, cult hit. Like, a lot of people on Pinside seem to want Big Trouble in Little China. That movie would probably be considered racist by today's standards. But I'm just saying, again, it was a flop movie. What do you think about The Goonies? Because I asked Joe Kaminkow, I'm not sure if you heard that interview with him, and he kind of laughed at it and said maybe he's scraping the bottom of the barrel, which to me either means that somebody else has it or he actually really thinks that it's not a good license to get. Maybe it's too expensive or something. Well, it involves Steven Spielberg, so it's going to be expensive. I don't know. I mean, everyone's grabbing up licenses, so somebody probably has it, if I had to guess. Okay. I think it would work. I mean, I'm sure people would complain about having to hear the Cyndi Lauper song over and over and over. again but again Goonies was not really that successful upon release but over the years it became like a cult I mean I thought it was okay I mean alright the other the other rumored titles Willy Wonka Toy Story and Guns N' Roses from Jersey Jack what do you think is the strongest license out of out of those three another Guns N' Roses huh well I don't know, another Pirates of the Caribbean. They're doing that again. And that wasn't that much of a bad thing. So... Um... Maybe it's just Rumentar. I mean, they might not be sure. A lot of people seem to want Toy Story. I'm the weirdo who thought Bugs Life was better as a film. So, what do I know? I like all Pixar movies, but surely... Well, okay. Oh, I don't. They've made some real stinkers. Oh, the good dinosaur is horrible. I thought Finding Dory was like just garbage. It's like it was the same stupid movie and there's no reason... I won't get on that. I watched that one with my kids, so I've got a very skewed reference for that one. I watch a lot of Pixar movies just with my wife. I do enjoy them, but when I watch it with my kid and my kid enjoys it, I can't say that it was a crap movie because I'm there with my kids. I don't actually know if The Climbing Door is a horrible movie. I watch a lot of Pixar movies on planes. I don't know why. It's like a tradition for me. you know you're going to have a good time you don't want to watch some depressing ass movie you know like my wife watched that Red Sparrow movie on the airplane I'm like what are you doing I really want to see it and then two hours later she's like man that was shit and she just went to sleep meanwhile I'm watching Aladdin happy as fuck coming back from Germany for a work trip we land at the airport my editor Max is like, oh my god, I watched Zoolander 2. It was awful. Then he watched Unforgiven, which he'd never seen before because he's like 25. He's like, oh my god, Unforgiven was amazing. He got one good, one bad. I think all of those rumored Jersey Jack titles, Guns N' Roses does seem strange. Remember, Slash is a pinhead. Having, just like Rob Zombie or Al Scooper, having a part of the license, or Seth MacFarlane with Family Guy, having part of the license or licensor be a pinhead is worth a lot. Yes. It's worth a lot. If Stern is like, hey, we're going to make we're going to make I don't know, Lexi Lightspeed pinball, and we want to hire Seth MacFarlane to do the voice because he's so good as the dog on Family Guy, right? He would have been like, okay, that'll be a million dollars. I'm so actually, no. You couldn't afford him. But if it's a pinball machine, they say he did all that dialogue for free for that game. Wow. I think there's a line in Jason's view on Wisconsin Podcast and they're talking about Sopranos and the team met with the whole Sopranos crew and they were all kind of happy to do it and then they all did it. There's so many people involved with the voice on them and he's just kind of saying that stuff doesn't happen anymore. People just want to get paid so much money for whatever they do. Which is fair enough, right? Oh, that's what I do. Yeah. Like I was talking about earlier, I'm this heartless, money-gubbing bastard. I'm just honest about it. Yeah. At least you're honest about it. At least you're not, what did you say before, pretend caring about things. Oh, no, if I fade enough, I'll pretend to care. But it has to be pretend to care money. So, Chicago gave me... Did you hear that rumor about Kiss? Where the first time they got the dialogue back from Gene Simmons, He just, like, read it like he was reading a phone book, and they had to, like, redo it, apparently. No, I didn't hear that. Well, I mean, there's still a lot of call-outs in there that aren't in, so everyone's still waiting for that final update. Hey, if you were Stern, this is just, like, a bit of a theory, but do you think, obviously they've got issues with keeping up with some of the code updates, you know, maybe they're getting on top of it now, but... Well, they're making three versions of every game. Or at least two, from a co-perspective, yeah. So do you think it would be in their best interest to not update certain games on purpose? Like, get them to a certain point, like Kiss and Ghostbusters. Are they sure they already do that? Well, and then, like... I'm talking about kind of, like, in the last maybe, like, four or so years. Like, the fact that the last Kiss update hasn't come out yet, kind of, like, keeps... I don't think it's sold very well. That's why. I don't think it's, like, the secret. Like, do you think if they kind of say, like, it's finished, then people might just say, okay, well, screw this, I'm selling it. But they're kind of, like, holding on to the hope that it will one day become the pinball machine thing. Exactly. Once you say it's finished, it's done. Its value is set in stone. But you're right, as long as... Well, but they have, like, didn't they release an update for, like, Avatar or something recently? Avengers, Avengers, yeah. Okay, yeah, but a pretty old game, so... Well, Lime and Chief even said that he might, you know, like, you know, never say never for Iron Man. Like, Iron Man might be updated as well. Like, they're all, like, could be updated at any time kind of thing. So, you know, don't say you've been one machine. Well, right. But, I mean, with any company, you know, you have a finite amount of resources. And whatever the newest game is, is the priority. And then, yes, if, you know, well, think about it. Like, if you sell, like, 3,000 Iron Maidens versus, like, 1,000 Kisses, of course Iron Maiden is going to be a higher priority for code updates because you have 3x the people to keep happy. Whereas something like WWE is probably just, like, screw it, you know, forget it. Let's just give it away for, you know, every time someone wins a competition. Well, think about it. Like, it costs just as much, or time-wise, to update Iron Maiden as it does WWE. So why would you put resources that you could put into, like, a slam dunk game like Iron Maiden, why would you put those same resources into a flop like WWE? It doesn't really make sense. I mean, yeah, if you caught up with everything else and you have the time, which does happen from time to time, sure. But, I mean, okay, you know, Stern makes a ton of games. It's like they're making more games than anybody else. Not just how many games they manufacture, but how many titles they release in a year. So, you know, and another thing to think about is programmers are a valuable, expensive, hot commodity in the world. They're the most expensive. There's probably some programmers that make more than the designers, if I had to guess. And so, you know, you're only going to be able to afford so many. And it's, you know, it's a limited resource, like how many programmers you have end time. But to their credit, I mean, Stern has, I mean, it's not like, you know, eight years ago where they had one guy. It had like basically a designer and a programmer doing everything. John Borg and Lonnie D. They've hired a lot of people, and a lot of young people, too. I've been at conventions, and I'll run into these kids that look like they're out of high school. They're like, oh, yeah, we're on Stern's programming team, or we're doing animation. Stern got a lot of the, when Midway went under, they got a lot of their animators. I think around Ghostbusters is when they started. They obviously needed them because now they have, there's so much more work to do on the LCD. So, yeah, I mean, it would be nice if games could be done in a more completed state, but from my experience, yes, it's a lot easier to build a game than it is to program it. And I think that's why we see the cart in front of the horse as far as the games being built versus them being programmed. And it's just like our home consoles, our video game consoles. Once consoles all went online and had the ability to update their games, it was, I don't want to say an excuse, but it was like, oh, okay, so now it's okay to release a game that's not quite there because we can patch it later. Same thing with Pinball. They couldn't have done that in the White Star era, where you had to put in an EEPROM. But now that it's just a thumb drive, it gives them some breathing room and some leeway. I mean, I even did that with Rob Zombie, like America's Most Haunted. Updating that game sucks. It's a clunky, terrible process. I know. I had one. I had to, like, message you and you had to give me tips on how to update. I remember. Yeah, it's ass. I mean, the game itself is the finest ghost hunting pinball machine ever made. But, the updating process is ass. So, I actually spent a lot of time on, like, okay, how can I use the same hardware with the same ports and make it program itself? Now, when I was doing America's Most Haunted, I was too busy trying to make the game. I didn't have time to actually work on the updating code, you know what I mean? I mean, it was possible, the USB cable So I'm like, okay, good enough. But then with Rob Zombie, I'm like, I have to do better. So then I figured out a hack where the video processor, which is the only thing that actually has access to the SD card, it could take data off the SD card and it could act as a programmer to program the other chip. So Rob Zombie, Domino's, blah, blah, blah, those games, their ability to update themselves was another Ben Heck hack. It didn't work. But I knew it was not just important that the games could be updated, but they could be updated easily. so that way I'm like okay if we can just make it as easy as copying files in an SD card that's cool. I also made the mistake demographically of not having Mac drivers for that update program that we just talked about and I'm like oh darn it pinball people are rich, they all have Macs and we don't have Macs there Everyone with a Mac knows someone with a PC that could help them right? or a laptop they can bring over surely Yes, yes. And I won't say who, but there was one guy who was like, well, I had to borrow my neighbor's laptop, my PC laptop. Now I'm ready to go. And I'm like, okay, here are the steps. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, the thing is, if you can take some, I mean, the, again, the amount of shit that goes into a pinball machine with those screens and everything, like, it would be very hard to just like say, okay, the game is done. We have to ship it and the ROMs are set in stone. like with the amount of content and like asset liability that a modern game has with the screens and the audio it would be you'd have to start way earlier which would be a problem with licensing as far as time is concerned and yeah I just the nature and expectations of modern pinball machines is part of the problem why we have to wait so long for updates that demand or like with LCD that demand has caused part of the problem it's like video games It's not like Mario Brothers is made by five people in six months. Now it's like it takes $100 million in three years to make a video game. It's so much more complicated, and therefore it's a big moving machine. There's more parts that can break and more things that need to be updated or fixed. Do you think that will ever go back to what it was? It's like a temporary cycle where everyone's obsessed with LCD screens, and then there'll be a point where everyone agrees that it's not doing any... It's not a positive step that the pinball community took, that it's made everything more expensive, it's made licenses more difficult. It's probably too late, right? I don't think TNA needed an LCD screen, personally. I think it would have been fine without it. The voice call-outs tell you exactly what to do, and there's really not that much on the display if you think about it. So I'm just saying, I think that game could have got away without a display, and I think it would have been fine with it, and it would have saved, I don't know, $150 off the bomb. First of all, the reason you had to put a computer in a pinball machine, the only thing that requires that is the video. Everything else could be done with, like, a pocket watch, basically. Even the audio, but the video creates this huge processing overhead that requires all these additional components. So, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know. I don't think TNA needed a screen. It's kind of pointless. I mean, I guess for, like, game models. But even then, you could have, like, a wireless module, and you could, like, do it with your cell phone, you know? I would love to make a game where there's no, it would just stream everything off the Internet. Screw it. And all these people on Pinside would be like, oh, blah, blah, blah. They would complain about that. And then they'd go stream a movie off Netflix. Welcome to 2018, folks. Yeah. Last couple of demo machines. Oktoberfest. What do you think about that as a license? Terrible. Terrible? Terrible in terms of sales or what you can do with the demo machine? Alcohol-related, that's going to be a problem for some homes. Yeah. It's about one month of the year. It's very seasonal. Would you make a Christmas machine? Sure, everyone loves Christmas, right? Actually, no. I work where Christmas could work, but it's one of those things where it's going to have all the disadvantages of being a custom license because they're not going to give you anything to work with, but you're going to have to pay for it. Or do you have to pay for Oktoberfest? No, I don't think so. If they have a bunch of, like, big, busty German women and corsets holding beers, that's going to have some trouble getting into homes. Yeah. When I see that, I'm like, okay, you know, this is, oh, that's beer-related. We can't let the kids see that. Oh, a bunch of cleavage. We can't let the kids see that. That happened. But at the same time, Elvira. Elvira, which had a modesty sticker that you could put over her cleavage. Is that going to be in the... No, that was in the kit back in the day. So if you had Elvira in a location that might consider Elvira too sexy, it actually came with like a sticker that you could stick on the back glass to cover up her cleavage. That was a real thing. Okay, the guys at American Pinball if you're listening, all you need to do is just put the biggest breast of women you can think of on the back glass, but just have a sticker so that they're wearing like a high neck top. That's all you need to do. I like breasts, but some people don't want to see that, you know? I like man boobs. I want to see the first pinball machine with man boobs on there. The guy who sold me my space shuttle for $400 less than I sold it for. He told me that he had trouble putting Theater of Magic in somebody's house because the chick had too big of boobs. She had no nipples as well. Her nipples are meant to be exposed, but they're not. So there's just like the, like, she obviously doesn't have symmetrical, like her nipple must be like not in the middle of her breast. Have a look at the backlash. I feel like I'm the only person who realizes this. Anyway. The ACDC was an orc that was complaining about the woman's hip. Yeah, he was right. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I didn't notice that. Well, we just did this thing with the Tommy Guns. Well, there's, you know, well, I grew up with, like, an overly conservative mother, and I know what it's like. There are, yeah, there are some households where that is not getting in the door. Yep. Big Juicy Mountains, same thing happened. Yeah, yeah. How many people can I, this podcast, I'm going to see it. I'm going to go for it. the new we don't he's Voldemort we don't mention his name I'm totally censoring that out Queen that's Timber Brothers that's not coming out that's pretty fast that won't be their next game but yeah it's done Scott Dinesky's second game you obviously probably know what it is I won't I don't you don't I haven't really I haven't really been talking with Spooky very much I mean I've just been I've been really busy this spring It was incredibly difficult finishing my show, as strange as that sounds. So I've been kind of out of the loop. I have no idea what he's working on. I, honest to God, do not. Do you have aspirations to one day kind of get back and be working in Pimble, or do you think that's a phase of your life that you've now moved on from? No, I'd still like to make something because I want to see how much better I can do. I'm like, okay, here's what I learned. Americanville's haunted. The biggest thing I learned is art is all that matters. All that matters in pinball is art. It's one of those things you just realize. No, I'd like to see how much better I could do. I did a white wood. Spooky still has it. I mean, you never know. It might get turned into something someday. Maybe I work on it. I don't know. Was it heavily tied to the theme? Do you think it could be? No, it could be turned into something else. Heck, I thought about turning it into Predator. I would love to make a Predator pin. It would be the ultimate troll. It's probably, that would probably be trolling a little bit too hard. That would probably get me in trouble. But, see, Predator, we did this, I don't know, I won't say that. That would really rile feathers. I'm just saying, Predator was a slam dunk theme for the pinball. I mean, some redneck idiot conned 250 people into giving them half a million dollars. There was something there. Too bad he didn't have a license, but, I mean, it's, well, yeah, Yeah, I mean, Predator, Die Hard, those movies didn't make that much money. They didn't make as much money as Top Gun. Die Hard made a lot of money, didn't it? Not really. It made like $80 million, which is like a trillion dollars now in Hollywood ticket sales. You're like Mr. Box Office Mojo. You've done all the research about old movies. I have a ridiculous encyclopedic knowledge of when movies came out. It's stupid. It's like a hobby of mine. No, Die Hard was not really. I mean, but the thing is, that was back when you could make a movie like Die Hard for $20 million. and it would make $80 million, and Fox was like, ka-Bradlee Ching! But no, like, yeah, I mean, Rain Man was the top grossing film that year, but nobody gives a fuck about Rain Man anymore, but they love Die Hard. So it's really, it's about what movie, not what was the biggest, but what movie kind of stuck in the collective unconsciousness or consciousness of our... Well, let's ask that about something like this year in movies, right? So, like, maybe this would be useful 20 years now for more manufacturers. Like, what movie do you think this year, or maybe in the last year, you know, 12 months have come out. Everything now is just superhero junk. I mean, that's all we get. We don't get anything new anymore. But, I mean, like, once the superhero movie comes out, it's the best movie, it's the best superhero to date until three months when the next one comes out, and no one remembers it, right? Like, no one gives a crap about, you know, the third, you know, superhero movie that came out. They really haven't made a lot of, well, I guess, I guess Guardians of the Galaxy was based off a new movie, but, I mean, if you notice, like, there haven't really been a lot of new movie pins. I mean, I guess, like, maybe Avengers was the last one? Well, like you said, like, the whole nostalgia thing, like, you know, as stupid as it sounds, like, the monsters might sell more than Deadpool, because... Oh, I guarantee, I guarantee monsters will do better than Deadpool. I would bet my left nut on it. Okay. I don't need one. I don't need either of them. I don't want fucking kids. More money for not-pimple machines. I don't know. What are you sending your money on, Ben? Nothing. Nothing. Just to give me shit for that. He's like, why are you driving a 10-year-old station wagon? And I'm like, I can drive whatever the hell I want. Put all that money in the bank. Yahoo. No, but, yeah, it is kind of weird. I mean, Munsters is really old, but it seems like people really want it. I mean, I honestly think that Pinside, Stern says they don't read Pinside. Bullshit. They read it. Like, Pinside willed Iron Maiden into existence. No one would have thought to make an Iron Maiden pin. What's, okay, what's the next thing then? Like, are people talking about a Slayer thing? Do you think people are willing? No people aren willing Slayer are they I think Slayer God I think they might have contacted Spooky at one point I do know if Stern gets any whiff of any license talking to anybody else they go in like a hawk, like picking up a rat and grab it. But, I mean... Don't say which titles, but I know that's happened several times with Spooky. Slayer, I don't know if they picked up Slayer, but I know Slayer was one of them. If you... Okay, this is my question. If you pick up a license, are you not paying pretty much anything until you then produce the pinball machine? It depends on the license. With some licenses, the clock starts ticking as soon as the ink is dry. Yeah. With others, it doesn't start until the production actually starts. So that's why Big Lebowski is dead as a doornail, because even if they had the money and the license has expired and they're going to be in a worse position if they did go back to negotiate with Universal, it's usually about three years. I mean, look, Jax re-licensed Wizard of Oz at least twice, I think, because, you know, it's successful. But, like, Alien, I'm sure that expired on Andrew. Yeah. So it depends. It depends on what the license is. Can you hoard licenses if you wanted to? Like, if you were very smart with the way that you kind of worded the contract, can you just have 60 licenses in your arsenal and not be paying that much for it? So there's what I would call shit licenses where you just get the name, like, Alien. So, yes, if you were a company that wanted to hoard licenses, you could just get the crappiest, cheapest version of the license like Andrew got for Alien. Oh, he's probably going to come after me for libel now. He's going to, like, drive this hydrofoil over here and, like, beat me up. He's got a kickstart for that, I think. Well, you know what? You know what? When I blow millions of dollars into the wind, then, you know, then he can, you know. Okay, that's why you're saving your money, Ben. We found the reason. So just protect yourself against all these little things that are coming your way. My point is, yeah, I think if you wanted to do that, you would basically just, you know, you were like, oh, I don't need video rights. I don't need blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just want, you know, the name. I want Star Trek or whatever. I see Star Trek in the back of your picture. And then that way, yeah, that would keep anyone else from getting it. So does that mean, okay, so no one could get it. And then could you possibly renegotiate the license when it comes time to make the pin and say, okay, well, now we want all of this stuff. And that's when the deals come in. That I couldn't tell you, although it might be more about preventing other companies from doing it rather than doing it yourself. Because remember, it's a business. It's all about, you know, squashing the competition. Yeah. Okay. All right. I think we've gone through pretty much all the upcoming pins. I feel like I've been, you know, I haven't really said anything negative about any of the companies. I'm just talking about basically, you know. No, you're being honest. I mean, it's something that a lot of people don't have the luxury of doing when we interview them. They have to worry about this, this, and that. But you're not currently employed by anyone, so you can be as honest as you would like, and you've been pretty honest today about everything. Mostly. Mostly. How many lies have you told, Ben? How many lies? How many pinball machines are you still hiding? I don't know if I've told any lies. No. Yeah, well, I mean, I think pinball's really cool. I mean, I would like to work on something again someday, unless I pissed everyone off with this podcast. I mean, I, you know, as long as a pinball company is making games, I respect that. But, you know, if you start, like, stealing money, like Kevin, I will call you out. So, you know, I think that's pretty fair. Cool, man. So I'm not sure when we'll hear from you next in the pinball world, maybe an announcement one day, whether it be six months or a year or, you know, next week that you're working for somewhere. but we look forward to hearing from you then. Sounds good. Well, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thanks, Ben. Catch you later. Sorry, Marty. No, come on, let me say it. That was Ben Heck, Marty. What did we learn? You haven't listened to us. You have no idea what we learned. You learned nothing. Okay, what did we learn? Without listening to it, we learnt that Ben Heck is a very intelligent person. Yes. Keep on going. I would say we learnt that Ben Heck has a certain way of doing things. Sure. Yes. I would say that's all I can assume. Okay. I've really got to listen to it. I'm pretty sure that Stern is going to kick him in the nuts at one of the latest expos. I think that's what we learnt. He was just trying to piss everyone off as much as he could. Well, okay. Yeah. Well, actually, we also know he doesn't like Chicago, so there's that. Yeah, he didn't really touch on that. He didn't touch on that. He's a movie buff. He loves movies. Yeah, okay. Yeah. He doesn't like Finding Dory. He liked The Bug's Life, which is a bit weird. I'm not sure if many people liked The Bug's Life. Anyway, Marty, a bit of a slow news week, but me and Ben did touch on the mafia pinball, but I want to talk to you about it as well because your opinion matters. Thank you. You got on the plane and then by the time you got off, a new pinball machine and a new team was revealed. Well, yeah, so I actually got this, I think, just as it had been announced, and I think in Australia that was about 4 o'clock in the morning. So I sent the pinballnews.com article on it. But it was really funny because by the time Australia woke up, I had all these people messaging me. Do you know why people were messaging me about this new pinball machine? The rollovers at the top? Because the rollovers spell gin. So everyone was like, you've got to buy this machine just for that alone. Is gin the alcohol of choice for mafia bosses? Sure, it must be I thought it was like whiskey or, you know, like rum or something I don't know I don't know So, yeah, so a new company out of Cardiff, which is in Wales Which is where Doctor Who is filmed, just so you know Has been revealed So Teen Pinball and their first machine is called The Mafia And so apparently this company has been around, well, sort of in development for two years three people. I'm going to pronounce their names completely wrong, but I think Janos, Janos, Otilia and Romain. And they're, yeah, so they've already made ten of these machines. It's called the Mafia and they sort of say it's kind of like, you know, your single level EM style game with modern features. Can we go good cop, bad cop on this? Can you just be really positive about this and can I... I'm good. Can I be really close? Yeah, absolutely. I'll be the arsehole. I'll be the arsehole. No, that's right. Just be yourself. Okay. So, yeah, it's funny if you're going to get that. Okay. It's going to be hard for me to be completely just overly positive. Well, I'm going to. That's the whole thing. You just don't say anything negative. And if I miss anything in my rant, then you can chime in. Okay. So, let me tell you what I love. What I love is that it reminds me of an old-school Williams EM. So think Grand Prix, think big deal, that style of game. Without any chimes. Without any chimes. Yes. I like the music. I like the layout most of all. Actually, that does appeal to me, and I think they are... Well, I don't even know whether they intentionally sort of tried to ride on the coattails of the likes of TNA, but, you know, they are going for that old-school sort of collector type thing. The art is... Oh, you want me to be really positive, don't you? The art is fantastic. I like the fact that they've made 10 of them already. I like the fact that it's got, you know, modern components. It's got LEDs all the way. The lighting actually looks quite good. It's got a... Was it like a 10-inch screen in the back? and LCD screen in the back. Great animations, say that, Marty. Great animations. Yeah. With the score ticking over. Sure. I haven't really seen much of that. It's got one spinner in the middle. It's an old-style spinner, Marty. Say that. It's the old-style spinner, so it's not a micro-switch. Old-style spinner. Should get some good rippage off that. Yep. There'll be a lot of pop-bumper action. Even though the pop-bumpers are too far apart. Yep, keep on going, Marty. but they're not that far apart compared to, you know, gangs of that era. I know that there is that typical, the rules around the three pop bumpers and where they should be and the geometry that goes with that as well. It's a closed, the pop bumper area is a closed area, so it doesn't matter how much speed gets generated by the pop bumpers. It's going to be a very small percentage of times that it's going to rip out and cause a really exciting bit of gameplay to happen. Let me just say, look, I like the look of it. I think it's too expensive. You're going to say all that anyway. But let me tell you the one thing that I think is really, really lacking from this. And if I'm completely wrong, just tell me that I'm completely wrong. Because I've looked at the pictures and I just couldn't see. They need spinners on the orbits. Like, rip the spinner. Like, it's got the perfect layout for left and right rip the spinner, but instead they've got one in the middle. Anyway, tell me what you think. I just don't care at all. I don't know what it is, but when I saw this, I just almost got angry. The only thing I didn't get angry about is that at least they're smart enough to say it's 100 units only, okay? If they were to say, we're just going to release this pinball machine, that's the only reason people are talking about it, because they're like, oh, you know, I'll have one of 100, and it doesn't matter how much it costs, because, you know, it's 100. But everyone's just kind of, like, applauding the fact that these guys have built 10, and, oh, hey, they didn't ask for any pre-order money, and they didn't say, hey, we've got a pinball machine coming up, it should be ready in two months, and then it's ready in two years. Yes, hooray for that. Like, you know, I've been talking to people, and it's pretty much just said, like, that's the sad state of the pinball industry, is that anyone who doesn't rip off the community, you know, half a million dollars is a hero. You get an award for not ripping people off. That's it. You get an award for, you know, let's be serious and talk about what they've presented. You know, Jersey Jack's first pinball machine, it's just insane, you know. America's Most Haunted, ten times better than this. Houdini, you know, like, this is not raising the bar. It's lowering it to such a low level that... But that's what people said about TNA. He's... No! Let me please make this one point, because it could have altered everything from this point forward. There is one thing that you don't have, and you will never have, because you don't have a time machine. You cannot go back to this era and therefore have any sense of nostalgia at all. You can't. You've got a Sea Witch and you've got a Quicksilver, so you bought those old machines, but you never got to play those machines back then, so you don't have the nostalgia effect. And I'm not saying that this is a good pinball machine or not, but what I'm saying is a lot of people will look at it and go, that's what I've been wanting, that nostalgia, that old school layout. But there's a million, they were doing a pinball machine every couple of months back then, and there's so many machines that exist. Are you saying that someone is so sick of playing every single game from the 60s, 70s and 80s that they're just like, oh, I really want a new layout from these old games. I've played every one. I've got all of them. I've had 1,000 pinball machines. There's just that many during that era. Well, I mean, do we know how many of the Woe Neely or Pabst Crancrush are sold? No. But that's the same value proposition right there. It is like a proper, you know, with even the small flippers, EM. Well, look at the presentation and stylisation of that pinball machine. Okay, but you're talking about a different thing then, because the one thing that, besides the spinners, the one thing that I sort of really didn't get was the art. The art is probably the disconnect to the nostalgia effect. trademark that. You'll listen to the Ben Heck interview and I kind of said, do you want to get back in the industry? And he said, I do because I learnt a lot and I want to keep on improving. And one of the things that I learnt was that art is the only thing that matters. And he's kind of said it jokingly, but there's still a truth to it, is that if America's Most Haunted had this amazing art, then people would just, they'd be worth so much more money. And Rob Zombie as well. and when you're making a collector's piece, I guess, and you're limiting it to 100 units, surely, you know, if you're enticing someone with $7,500 US dollars, which buys a certain premium. What did you think of TNA when you played it as a Whitewood? The gameplay is amazing and the sound is amazing. No, I get that. This is not anything, Marty. It's nothing. This is a nothing pinball. I'm sorry to drop, you know, to be the only one who's going to be honest about this, but this is a nothing pinball. No one cares. 100 suckers will buy this fucking thing. No, but you're just saying, I'm just being honest. Well, that doesn't mean you're being honest for everybody. This machine's not for me. I don't know who's going to buy it, but there will be some people that will look at this and say, yep, I really like what you're doing because I'm not a big fan of all the modern machines with all the ramps and really I'm only limited to ramps and call-outs and all that kind of stuff. time will tell whether this is going to be successful or not. I won't buy it because it's got a price tag that I think is really quite high for what it is. There's also people that money that, you know, it's a collector's piece. I think people will buy it to say that I have it and you don't. And I don't care about that. People that collect weird shit and stamps and coins and, you know, those Funko Pop things and everything, good for you. I'm not saying that you're wrong for doing it. the Funko Pop things? Oh, those like that, yeah, yeah. Anything in a box that sits on a shelf that does nothing, for me, and this is me personally, I know there's a lot of people, probably like half the people that are listening have these things and are saying, Ryan, you're a dickhead for saying this, but I just, I don't know. If it brings you happiness, then that's fine. But I just think it's crazy. Yeah, I'm scratching my head a little bit, I will say. I really like the look of it and besides the art and I would kind of want to I like the way you look today besides what you're wearing in your face I think you're a beautiful person but you're hidden I think you're a beautiful person but not on the inside or the outside I guess what I am I'm curious but I also have The nostalgia effect, because when I play EMs that have got those layouts today, I am yet to play an EM today that feels as good as it was when it was made. And also, we don't get to see them really at all because they're just not around, right? So, I don't know. I mean, there probably is more of them in America, so there's less of a market, but there's more people in this and maybe they have more of a market. I don't know, if they want to sell 100 units, good luck to them. Yeah. But, you know... I feel like I'd be an arsehole, but, you know, I realise I'm a bit of a hypocrite because how interested was I in everything about Supreme? And I guess it's about the presentation. Like, watch the Supreme video and how cool they make the pinball machine look, right? That video is like perfection, like marketing perfection. Yep. And then watch... And have you seen this video, Marty, or have you just looked at the article? Yeah, no, I've watched the video. It does. It's so bad. It does what it needs to do. It's so bad. No, look, it does what it needs to do. I think if Dirty Donnie had done the after this, he'd be all over it. And someone else doing the video, and someone else screwing the screw all the way down on the apron, which wasn't screwed in, and cleaning up the decal. When you put the decal on the front, you can't leave all that shitty, like, residue on there as well. I notice all those little things. Anyway. I know you do. but they are boutique right? they are massively boutique I feel like being I'm being a massive arsehole because it's a little guy and you don't want to shit on a little guy you shit on Stern because they can handle it but do you know what I mean? I think I'm over that you know like Stern copped so much criticism if this was anyone else they would be as Ben Hex said murdered you know if Stern said hey this is our new pinball machine everyone would just It's going to be a meltdown. But it's a new company, so let's be nice to the new guys so we don't hurt their feelings. And you know what, Ryan? There's actually nothing wrong with that. Sure. There's actually nothing wrong with that. Like, give them a go. If people don't want the machine, they won't buy it. If people give them their money and they never receive their machines, then they're fucking... That's what I'm saying. The bar is so low that these guys aren't ripping anyone off. So let's be nice to them, sure. but I've still got an opinion that the Pimble Machine doesn't look very cool. Yeah, fair enough. There's my opinion. Yeah, I get that. And look, I do sort of draw the T&A comparison. It had no art and everyone loved it but it had a great light show, it had great sound, it had great gameplay. We haven't seen how this plays but I kind of get what you mean. It's not just... I know you were saying there was an odd layout with the pop bumpers, but there's also some really sort of odd placement of targets around them as well that look... That's what old EMs and Solstice had, weird placements of targets and weird spots. And I guess that's kind of what I'm saying overall. My thoughts on this are, I'm curious, as I was curious to play Wonelly, and in fact, when I went to the Pinball Hall of Fame, and not just because it was one of few machines that were fully working. But I played Woe Nelly more than any other machine at Pinball Hall of Fame. It just kept drawing me back in. I just found it lots of fun. If you don't get the top rollovers on that machine, like nothing happens. You have to get to it. No, but it didn't matter about score. Really with that game is how long can you last and can you last over 10 seconds? That was kind of the fun. I think there's enough rare old games, like, as I said, I want to buy a Stargazer. Who wants to sell it to me? Fucking nobody, okay? And anyone who's got it, like, you're 27th on the list of people, you know, if I ever decide to sell it, which I'm not. So I think more people will be interested in Stern saying, hey, you want nostalgia? Here's a brand new Sea Witch. Here's a brand new Stargazer. Here's a brand new Quicksilver. You know, using the spike system and, you know, a brand new everything. and they could, that's when it works, I think. Not, well, I mean, hey, maybe this company sells 100 and they bring out 10 more machines and their third one is really good and they're a bit more manufacturer, but I don't know. Limited space in the market at the moment. Okay, fair enough. What else? Here we go, breaking news. So I just had someone message me saying, are you okay in Toronto? I'm like, well, of course I am. Is there breaking news? No. I don't know. Apparently there's multiple victims after a shooting in Toronto's Greektown area Sunday night. That's now. Two victims were shot, and one of them is possibly a child. Yeah, this is right now. It's actually happened 10.30 tonight, which was half an hour ago, was when it was just announced. So just so everyone knows, I'm okay. I'm in my hotel room. This is not airing for a couple of hours, Marty, so you've got to chuck it on Facebook. Otherwise, you know, the message is like, hey, are you still alive or did you die in the floods in Kyoto? I'm like, what? There's floods going on? Well, I've just got to say, thank God the suggestion tonight was to have Indian for dinner and not Greek fruit. Holy crap. All right. Because Greektown was an area that we were going to go to. Whoa. So there you go. All right. Well, live on head-to-head, that's what happened. So, anyway. That was Marthia Pinball, by the way. Brisbane Marches happened this weekend, Marty. Yeah, it did. 129 plays. We talked about it with Stacey and Lambo and Jimmy two weeks ago. Absolutely huge turnout. The biggest event ever in Australia and possibly the Southern Hemisphere. Sure. Yep. the main event the Brisbane Masters main event Aja you know Richard Rhodes from Victoria came fourth Nigel came third Paul Jones Australia's number one player currently came second and Peter Watt who's kind of the unbeatable guy in his state and doesn't travel came first I think five events Marty so huge whoppers available three strikes by a guy called Marco foot frenzy a hundred players I think the first one was my 100 players flip frenzy. Can you imagine a flip frenzy that big? The latest of that would have just been freaking hellish. That was one by Michael Costalos, and the second one, I think it was close to 100 people, was one by Paul Jones. Marty, I got a message just before saying there was some kind of controversy with the second flip frenzy. Marty, we talked about flip frenzy in a lot of detail before, and we kind of said it's a lot of fun and it's not to be taken super seriously because there's no way of determining if the winner was really the best player. It's because you don't get matched up. There's no finals. It's just win, win, win, win, win. It's just play, have lots of fun and look at the end and hopefully you've won. Yep. So if I'm playing you, Marty, and you put up half a billion on the Walking Dead on the first ball and then I plunge and get, you know, two million on my first ball, I can say to you, I concede. We can all plunge our balls away and that's it. Correct. That's within the rules. Correct. Right? Apparently people were saying, well, you know, hi, Marvin, let's play the game of Walking Dead. Hey, do you want to play just a one-ball game and whoever is in front on the first ball wins. That's cheating. Well, apparently that's within the rules as well. Is it? Apparently. Because, well, I don't know. I don't know. Apparently some people were doing it a lot and getting a lot more games in and therefore kind of, you know, abusing the system slightly. And I'm guessing there's going to be some kind of rule changes based off that. Because, you know, When it's like a 20, 30-person Flip Frenzy, you know, it's probably not as competitive. But when there's 100 people playing and there's 50, 60 boppers on the line, I think people got a bit too excited. Yeah. Do you know what? What's really hard about Flip Frenzy, and with 100 players, it is impossible to police what's going on, because you would need to have somebody there looking at every single machine. but there's so many people just organizing the logistics of getting everybody to those games and back and putting scores in. I can understand what you're saying. It's almost like a gentleman's agreement that says, yeah, whatever happens, we'll plunge out the last balls but whoever gets there on the first ball is it. Really, that is absolutely not the spirit of that game and it is people trying to rort the system. Well, if you can say, hey, you're too far ahead of me on the first ball, then that is almost in the same category, right? That you're only playing one ball and just plunging them out. So, I don't know. It's a weird one because, as I said, you can manipulate the results of foot frenzy within the rules at the moment. Well, all I will say is this, is good on you, fucks, for finding a fucking exploit on this, what is one of the most fun fucking tournament formats. All of you. That's just rubbish. There's people that sort of just get too caught up on points and whoppers and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, this is the stuff I'm sort of now, you know, recalling the many, well, the conversation that we had with Josh Arp and, you know, the many times that I've spoken to or heard Josh Arp on other podcasts when he sort of just, you can tell he's rolling his eyes because every year they've got to make these rules that affect 99% of people, or 100% of people, because 1% of people are ruining it for the rest of everyone. That's life, Marty. Yeah, it sucks, though. There's a law saying you're not allowed to... I don't have to like this. Yeah. There's a law saying you're not allowed to murder people, Marty, and that might sound stupid, but it's because 0.001% of people want to go and murder people. that's what it is that's life that's the rule it's the same it's the same thing you know these people that are rorting the flip frenzy you're practically murdering people is what Ryan is saying exactly that's what's happening it's exactly the same thing gee that should speak because it's meant to be this new format that's lots of fun and people are finding an exploit well I mean that's the good thing the exploits get found and then they get patched up and then everything everything progresses forward that's not the story coming out of the event. I just wanted to come and bring it up. No, the story is that it's an absolutely huge event and I don't know. I want to go next year. I put my name down on the list. My kid got pneumonia and I could not leave my family, but it would have been fun to go and join them on the phone. Yeah, well, honestly, I'm sort of gutted that I didn't get to go because obviously I'm doing a bit of a mini tour of Canada and America before I go to Pimberg. Otherwise, I would have been there for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, next year, it was such a huge growth from the previous year, so I can't imagine how big it's going to be next year. I mean, they need more pinball machines, obviously. Yeah, for sure. Can you imagine, like, 150 persons with Pansy Maddy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. All right, what else happened this week? Not much. There was a Hobbit stream with the Straight Down the Middle guys. Well, not Zach and Greg, it was Chuck. And he got to there and back again, so he got into every single one of the modes. Yep. Did you watch that little bit to see what the mode is like? Yeah, I did. Yeah. It was kind of cool, right? Yeah, it does. He didn't last very long in it, but that was exciting. So I'll link that in the show notes for people who want to check it out. Marty, Alice Cooper, haven't heard much of it. It's still not sold out, possibly soon. They have started shipping them. Yeah, I think they shipped one, and they've got a whole bunch of other ones ready. It's just weird, because ever since it was announced, there's been a bunch of little bits of footage, but they haven't properly revealed it, and I guess they're going to do that on the 30th, I believe, which will be next week, with Deadflip. So that is kind of like the reveal, the second reveal, the second coming of Alice Cooper, and I'm guessing that once that happens, unless the game sucks, because I don't think it does, it'll probably sell out after that, because they've already sold 400 and something, and it's limited to 500, so I'm sure once it's revealed. It'll sell out for sure. Yeah. Iron Maiden, Marty? Did you receive it this week? I did get my Iron Maiden this week. In fact, we streamed it twice, and you decided to stream it another time. Yeah. I've got my Iron Maiden limited edition, number 116. What are your thoughts, Marty? It is spectacular. It is absolutely spectacular. It is, I guess, comparisons to the Pro. I've played the Pro a little bit. It's easier and it's harder. The ramp that now pops up makes it easier to get into a mode, but it's harder. It just felt, and maybe it's because I was playing a game on site that's had more plays on it, but it just seemed a lot more brutal. It was a bit more rubbery. We did set it up pretty steep, I think, in pairs with the other ones. Yeah, it must have as well. It just never felt in control. Well, not as controllable as the pros that I've played. Obviously, we've seen the art. The art looks fantastic. The light show looks amazing. I love the left ramp shot into the sarcophagus. What can I say? It's amazing. not without its problems, Ryan. Yeah, it's your machine, so what are the problems, Marnie? Well, the problems were, when I finished the stream, I was sort of on the side of the machine looking at it going, what a beautiful machine. And I noticed it had 10 to 15 scratch marks along the playfield. And you went, no, bullshit, I can't see anything. And I went, no, no, no, it's there. And you sort of looked and went, yeah, but it's not really that noticeable. I went, yeah, it really is quite noticeable. In a certain light, you see 15 scratches. If I go to the side of my pinball machine and I turn on the light and I turn my head at 75 degree angle, I can see a scratch. But it wasn't just a scratch. It was a lot of scratches. And then we saw, well, I wonder if there's a problem with the balls. And you checked your balls and found one of your balls was a bit lumpy. Oh, no. I'll just shut up. Let's take it then. Yeah. Again, none of the balls had kind of a corrosion or anything on them, but one of the balls was a dimpling, like it was made out of a softer metal. It was like a golf ball. Yeah, it was like a golf ball, but instead of having 100 indents, it had like 1,000, like a hexagon times 1,000. So we took that ball out, but I'm not sure if that creates scratches. I'm not sure if it's like the clear coat process, but I guess you'll see it when you come back and see if it's any different, any worse, or if it's all kind of blended into one and make a judgment call from there. But besides that, not many issues. I think there was a bit of an issue with the powder coating on the legs. You can probably get that fixed when you get a new back leg when you get back. That's easy. They'll just send you that in the mail, right? The orb needed adjusting. That was after you left, played one game the next day. the captive balls, Marty. They're not normal captive balls. They're kind of like a ball with a post in it. And I'm not sure if you know how pop bumpers work, Marty, with the bottom switch. Basically, there's like a pole sitting on like a... They call it like a spoon or something, right? Sure. Think about a spoon that you eat with and think about putting your finger on it and it's basically like... That's what I'm thinking about. Yep, if you move your finger left and right, it kind of pushes that spoon down, you know, and it hits a switch. So that's what the new balls are like. I think they're called, like, kinetic balls or something. They just needed a little bit of adjusting because one of them was too sensitive and the other one wasn't sensitive enough. So that's the thing. That was like a five-minute thing. So besides that, it's been pretty damn good. No issues. Yeah. Yep. It looks great, except, obviously, the scratches. and, by the way, they're not little small ones. We're talking like 10, 15 centimetre long scratches here. Huge scratches. Mate, I want to talk about two things really quickly. Sometimes the... When we talked about pinball sins, it's a sin to flash the ball save light when the ball save isn't on. Yes. Yep. Sometimes when you hit the trooper lock so perfectly and so hard, a post doesn't come up and grab it, or maybe it jumps over the post. Yeah, and the ball comes around them and takes you straight into multiball. Yep, or this might be like lock one or lock two. Yeah. A light show goes off when you get ball one, and that light show includes the ball save, which obviously the ball save isn't on. And it's not meant to matter because the ball's meant to be staged, but sometimes the ball isn't staged and you think you have ball saves on. Yes, but when the ball goes all the way around and you see it flashing extra ball, you think that you've got a bit of a ball save. Yep. Yep. There's a really cool thing they did. Say you want to play, you're playing Metallica, and you want to choose a song, but you also want to go for the super skill shot for it to orbit all the way around. Okay, you have to choose the song to the right because then you have to hold the left flipper down, right? And then it changes the song, and then you plunge. Do you know what I mean? Yep. Yes? You don't? Okay, on Iron Maiden, if you tap the flipper, it goes to the next song. If you hold the flipper down, it knows that you want to, you know, you want to loop around and you want to make sure your punch goes all the way around. So, after really small detail of that, got my juices flowing, buddy. I appreciate that stuff. It's like, that's the first pinball machine that's done that. There's so many pinball machines like ACDC and I think Metallica and I'm sure all the other song-based pinball machines. I like it, buddy. I'll tell you another thing I like about it. And now that we've really got good time to look at the, whatever the super-duper extra-special smile time skill shots are, let's call it, you know, the Congo skill shot. Yeah. It's so satisfying when you get it, but it's really not easy at all. Yeah. Some of the skill shots are funny because, yes, they do add an 80-letter, but some of them kind of are risky in a certain way where it'll say, like, you know, plus five seconds or plus ten seconds on the ball safe, but then your ball drains directly because of that, and then it ejects back out, and you're back to normal. Here's one thing that I noticed, which I don't know why it happens. Certain animations and jackpots and stuff, they're, like, delayed, right? Like, say on a normal pinball machine, if there was a target, and it's like, hit that target, hit that lane, that switch, and the jackpot goes off. and it happens, like, instantly. Like, as soon as you get it, it goes off. On Iron Maiden, I don't know what's going on, but especially when it's up the middle, if you have to hit a jackpot or a cannon shot or a shot or something, and it's, like, shoot up the middle, you shoot up the middle, it hits one of those three targets. It doesn't give you the jackpot or the call out of the light show until, like, the ball drops down and, like, maybe, like, half a second later or something. it's probably only like half a second in total but it feels like three seconds to me because I'm used to being instant on pinball machines I'm not sure if that's got to do with like the debounce settings or something on the three switches but I feel it feels odd to me compared to every other pinball machine I've ever played where everything is as close to instant as my brain can recognise have you noticed that or not really? no of course I haven't noticed I don't notice things like that say. There's got to be a reason. There's no way that... No, I'm sure there is. But I love your, I don't know, your engineer brain. Like when I saw you when you were playing, I can just see you pick up things that, and I'm not saying I'm everybody, but you pick up things that everybody doesn't see. It's mechanical. Pimble is mechanical, right? So, you know, like... Yeah, I guess... No, no, and that's what makes us very different, because I don't try to think of it as a mechanical thing. I try to think of it as a living, breathing thing that you're trying to connect to. When I was young, my dad used to, like, buy, like, he used to go to garage sales and buy, like, typewriters for, like, two bucks for broken typewriters, and that was, like, my weekend. He used to give me a typewriter, and he'd say, like, have fun, and I used to take it apart, and I never ever used to put it back together. I used to just, like, figuring out how mechanical things work and maybe that's where it came from. I don't know. Yeah, very logical, Frank. So let me tell you one thing I actually quite liked as well and this is the mind of Keith Elwin, how he sort of rewards certain things but I mean, obviously you know how to light the lock shots, right? Yep, which is effectively to get the target bank down twice but if you do a full sweep on the very first time, locks the lid. Nice. I love that. Yeah, there's a lot of rules like that. You know, I played Iron Maiden with Jordan Treadway yesterday, and it's like one of the first times he's ever played, and he just knew the rules, like, before the plunge, he just, you know, and me, after playing, like, how many games, I was like, I'm pretty sure in Mummy you need to do this and do that. He's like, no, like, completely wrong. You need to do this, this and that. I'm like, oh, man. And all he's done is, like, you know, look at the rule sheet. instead of doing homework sure yeah in year 12 so yeah that's Iron Maiden you will be salivating at the mouth when you get it back and I get it delivered to your house yes absolutely yeah Marty did you listen to the Slam Tilt Podcast episode 100 I am almost to the end of that this is with Lime and Sheets yep massive episodes forgot to plug it last week because we kind of got early VIP podcast access to it. What a great interview. Oh, man. I honestly, and maybe it's why I haven't gotten to the end. I don't want it to end. So, obviously, talking to Lyman Sheets, amazing coder as he is, literally going from history to now, talking about all the machines that he worked on and what it was like, his thoughts about the time, his thoughts around coding, could just listen to it for hours. It was just freaking fascinating. Yeah, I think that was about a two-hour interview, and it does seem to go pretty quick when you listen to it. I think I've listened to it twice, and I might listen to it again, because I'm very bad at listening, so I'm picking up on different things the third time, and I'm sure the third time I'll pick up some more, because it's just all juicy information. Yeah, well, and you know what? Well done to Slam Tilt on getting 100 episodes They are the most downloaded podcast at the moment So good luck to them What? What was that? I don't get that joke Well, I can't say enough Ah, okay, because we don't report what we... Well, they didn't report either They said they got like 40 listeners. Me and Marty were joking about it, that some people have been saying that other podcasts have the most listeners because, you know, some podcast statistics are public, some aren't. You know, Marty, we crossed over 100,000 listens a couple of weeks ago or something. So you guys can do the math and figure out how many listeners. But, I mean, at the start, it was nothing. So what it is now is a lot more than just 2,000 listeners. Phenomenal. So, look, I was being a little bit funny, but genuinely, well done to Slam Tilt for a number of reasons. Because, first of all, they do an amazing podcast, and second of all, because if they didn't exist, we probably wouldn't have either. And their format as well, because he's like hubby. That's what I mean. Yeah. That was the subtext of what I was saying. Yeah. Slam the Top 100, Marty. Are you ready to play it? Canada versus Australia. I'm absolutely ready to recap on last week's results Go for it Marty Did I absolutely thrash Attack from Mars The greatest game of all time? No No? Did I get close? No I should have used your shitty argument When it was Medieval Madness versus Rob Zombie Like, you know, hey let's vote for Rob Zombie the joke And it almost worked It was like 55% to 45% or something I try and use some kind of logic, right? Yeah, with the Hobbit, better than, you know, Rob Zombie. You actually lied again, but keep going. It's a debate. It's all about lying, Marty. Oh, you'd make a great politician. Yeah, 20% for the Hobbit, 80% to Attack from Mars. Two pretty good gifs as well, right, Marty? I did a good gif though. Oh, phenomenal gifage. I will give you that. But yes, no, Attack from Mars absolutely wipes the floor. All right, let's do it again. I get the first number. Please generate a number from 0 to 100. Oh, I've got my iPhone on mute. It's 59, but if you don't believe me, I will do it again. What is 59? Andromeda. Yep, that was what it was. Ah, let's do it again. No, it wasn't 59. I'm lying. Okay. This is your one, Marty. Please generate a number from 0 to 100. Ah, I've got my Bluetooth speakers. Stinks. That's why it's not doing it. And that's in the other room. 39. Ah. Please calm down. I'm going. Go. Ah. Can I give up again? Alright Matty you first you got the higher number Go for it Okay So this is Let's just put it out there, right? A lot of people say a terrible film is Congo. I don't, which won't surprise anybody that I like something that is shit. I actually quite like the film. However, the pinball is so much better than the movie. very interesting layout sure, John Trudeau, I know you're going to bring it up so let's just put that out there, designed by John Trudeau, right? John Trudeau, we've got it there, move it on great machine, really interesting layout got that underplay field which probably could have been better utilised but it's still lots of fun got the great volcano up the right what I really like about this is it's got really good use of diverters so when you think a shot is going to come around to the left it doesn't, it goes around the right The vertical up kicker can go either to the right or to the left. You know, really good multiball, really good ways of being able to get into multiball. It's got, obviously, the Congo skill shot, which we love. Great art as well. This is a really good machine. Andromeda. Many people didn't know about this game, Marty. It's made by Gameplan Inc. Who the hell Gameplan Inc. are, I do not know, and I don't care to know. It was designed by a guy called Ed Chibula, which surely will go down in history as one of the greatest pinball designers of all time. The pinball podcast is doing like a Matt Rushmore of pinball. I'm pretty sure he'll be the number one face on there. This was featured in the Pimberg finals last year, and I believe this was the last game and responsible for... Was it this one or High End? I can't remember. If you look at the ratings history, Marty, As soon as it was featured in Pinberg, it shot up in rating money from 7.4 to like 8 or so. It's climbing money, all right? It's climbing. Beautiful art, okay? You've got the chick laying on there. You know, not much cleavage, a bit more luggage than normal. Phenomenal rule set money. Great in tournaments. You've got drop targets. You've got a pop bumper money. A pop bumper that just sits right next to your slipper money. Chaos. Everyone loves chaos, okay? You've got a chick on the playfield with four eyes. Okay? Two eyes. That's old school. It's just a fun game to play, Marty. More fun than Congo. Congo shoots like shit. Sorry, I haven't got to that bit yet. Okay, over to you. Tell me why Andromeda is a horrible pinball, Marty. This game that you know a lot about. It's not that it's a terrible game. I'm curious to know about all these rules that you seem to know about. Andromeda. Yeah, that will come up next. It might be. And, you know, Game Plan and the reason why they have that pop bumper that's there. Yeah. Nope. No, don't know? Okay. It's actually a really good game. Andromeda is... It's actually a really good game. I will tell you that. I actually love the sound of it. I'm actually a big fan of Game Plan games, you know, particularly all the Roger Sharp games. But Tongo is just a better game. I mean, if you do like your flat playfields, you know, with very average art, like the Mafia, then you'd love this game but as Ryan doesn't like games like this as he mentioned before on the Mafia therefore Congo is a better game and you know it is because you said previously that you love Congo so there you go Congo's had its hype window I mean a couple of years ago five years ago no one cared about Congo everyone decided as a collective hey this game isn't actually that bad it's a pretty cool game and then it gets hyped and hyped and it reaches a certain point now it's on the downward trend the Congo hype is over I'm starting the Andromeda hype, it was started already last year at Pimberg rip the spinner you've got a good quality build I'm just reading someone's Pinside review very high quality better than Bally of the same era this guy gave it 9.3 out of 10 so you're reading somebody else's quotes as your argument, which is something I did about 4 or 5 weeks ago and you never picked up on There's 500 of these, Marty. 500. It doesn't have enough to have a high rating, but for it to be rated that high with only that many available, built in 1985, it must be a great game, Marty. It must be. But not actually from any of your experience at all. Well, I can't lie and say that I've played the game. I've watched the top four players of last year battle it out on the pinball, and I was on the edge of my seat when they had to hold the left flipper up when it was absolutely going nuts on the pop bumper. I remember the game. I watched it last week before we interviewed Colin. It's like the beast layer in Paragon, Marty. Like, ooh, it's in the beast layer. Like, you know, he's going to go out, he's going to go in. This is like that, but even closer. The beast layer is at your flippers. Okay. There we go. Andromeda. Cool. Yep. I'm pretty sure no one's heard of Andromeda, so I will just be sure. Just letting you know, I'm actually looking at the rating history of Congo over time, and it has increased steadily and is still increasing. So that whole it's had its time business, no, it hasn't. Well, I'm announcing it now. It's at its apex. It's now going... You're saying officially because I've reviewed it, it's now jumped the line. Well, when the designer gets sentenced for life in jail, that's when it's going to happen. That's actually not happened. Everybody, that is not... It's very likely. Oh, shit. Let's move it along. Let's do it quickly. Okay. What else? The speaking pinball? If you guys haven't realised, we don't have show notes because Marty is overseas. I've got show notes. Okay. I've got very rough show notes. I forgot to send them to you. This week in pinball, Marty, what have you been up to? Let's talk about something we did together. Sure. I taught you how to stream. Oh, fuck me. Now, here's what I've... Look, you know, let's say I know you a lot better than I did, you know, a year ago, 100,000 listens ago. let's mention that every single time one thing I want to say is that I now know that if you're interested in something you're obsessed by it yes if you're not interested in it you could not give a fuck a flying fuck and will show no interest whatsoever that's what you were like when I was trying to show you how to stream I just want the basics and then you were just like Tell me how to turn it on. I don't want to know. Yeah, tell me. Yes. I showed you the different cameras and what they look like, and, you know, I had troubleshooting, I had a checklist, I had all this kind of stuff. You're like, yeah, but I'm not going to move machines, so should I just turn it on? Well, you could do that, but then you miss the art, the art of streaming. I asked you to write me the guide, and the guide is pretty much a checklist for me if things fuck up. But if things don't fuck up, I just want to press that button, and start streaming. And, well, this is the funny thing. Yesterday, all right, because I left everything as it is, I turned it on, and one of the things he told me is check the microphone before you press start. So I was sitting there clicking, and nothing was happening. So I, you know, I pulled the USB out, put it back in, didn't work. Pulled the entire hub out, put it back in, closed the computer, did it, you know, unplugged it from the Snowball mic, changed all the settings, and nothing worked. and it wasn't until I reset the entire computer that it worked again. Is that what you meant to do? Yes. Can I just say, mate, it's streaming stuff. It's so much effort. It's so much effort, isn't it? If you had 100,000 people watching you, I would say go for it. It's the most complicated thing, but it's worth it. It sounds horrible to say, but for the amount of people that watch, even if it was like 100 people, it's so much equipment. It's so much money. There's so many things connected to your computer. Oh my God. I have more respect for you, but I also think you're crazy. Anyone who streams is crazy. Well, how much effort do we put into this 100,000 listen podcast? That's crazy as well. But there's 3,000 people listening every week, so... I'm just saying, for me, in the hobby it's worth it. Yeah, fair enough. Like, yesterday, the Brisbane Masters was going on, so I was competing again, under your stream name, against the biggest event ever in Australia. And I managed to, you know, pull half of those people away, but it was still only, like, that's the pool of people I realised. It's like, usually you get, like, 20 plus people. I had, like, 10, 12. Yeah. I'm stealing people from others. If someone else was, you're lucky you don't have any competitors. Do you imagine if there was four streamers, it would be like five people each? Well, that's right. And I do know, I'm not going to mention names, but I do know that there's two of the main streamers out there in America, or over here in North America, see how I can say that now? Yep. Stream at the same time. And I kind of think, oh, you're cutting each other. But I think there's that many people here that it doesn't matter. In Australia, we're a tiny little country with tiny little people, so there's just not a huge viewing audience. And in actual fact, I find that if I stream so long that it then cuts into North America waking up, that's when I'll actually get all my viewers. Yeah, I was about to say, you're streaming at such a time that it's like the graveyard shift. It's like 4 a.m. or something when you start in the U.S. so you're not going to get any of those people, unfortunately. But look, I'm not doing it for numbers. I'm not doing it for downloads. I'm doing it because it's fun. And as soon as I start chasing numbers, Ryan, that's when it loses the fun of it. Like 3,000 people money? Yeah. That week that we had, I think it was about 7,000 downloads. Compared to the other week that we had, 12,000. No, I'm not going to mention the 12,000 week. No, we may have. No, we haven't. Oh, gosh. I should have messaged you about the whole numbers thing. It's just like it turned into a stupid joke now. Anything else, Marnie? How's Toronto? Okay, so I actually have some notes for me. So I want to tell you all about my Pinberg preparation. Are you ready? Oh, hey, we have to do it before we forget. we have to do a Pimberg guess to see who gets the closest to who's going to win. Hey, how about this for a competition, sorry? Because we have something big to give away. You guess the top four players, or you guess, like, number one, number two, number three, number four, and if you get number one right, you get, like, four points, three points, two, and one. The person with the most points wins the prize. Is that a good comp, or not really? Do you know what? Just off the top of your head like that, Ryan, You are a massive ideas guy. And we have got a set of Pinstadium lights to give away to this. Nice. Nice. How's that? That's worth at least like $200, $300. Yeah, easy. And so it's the full kit. So with the UV glow and all that kind of stuff, the premium, the creme de la creme of lighting. So explain to me the comp again. I just literally just kind of made this up. So, okay, Pimberg's coming up next week. By the time we film next week, and I'm guessing we might be a day late because... We're filming? Yeah, I can't think of a film we record, all right, for all of our millions of listeners. I don't know. I actually said that on the weekend, and you picked me up on it again. So, Marty, you'll be... What day is it now? It's Sunday? It is Sunday night. Okay, so Sunday night, are you going to be available, or are you going to be, like, totally pooped out? No, no, no, I'm recording Sunday night, so I'm going to be ready. Okay, so the same time next week, right, Pimberg will be over. Okay, before Pimberg starts, you guys need to email in at head, the number two, so never give me shit about that, head2headpimble at gmail.com, okay, and guess who is going to win Pimberg, come second, come third, and come fourth. So we want four names, okay? Like Keith Alwyn, Josh Sharpe, you know, Colin MacAlpine, Steve Bowman. Yeah, Martin Robbins, okay? There's 800 people to choose from, so there's a lot to choose from, okay? This should be a good comp, okay? Now, if you manage to get... How are we going to do this, Marty? So do people get any points if they say, hey, Keith Elwin comes first, but he comes second? Do they get some points for him being within that range? Or is it just whoever comes? Because then it's pretty down hard to guess that many people. Do you know what I'm going to say? I'm going to make this simple for everybody, Ryan. Yeah. Just pick the four people. It doesn't have to be in order, but who you think is going to be in the top four. And if multiple people get it right, then we will go to a random draw. How about this? Okay, this is it. Okay, you pick your top four that's going to be in the top four. If they come first, they get... What's the Pimberg scoring? Is it 4-3-2-1? Isn't it 4-2-1-0? No, it's 3-2-1-0. Okay, let's just say 4-3-2-1. Okay, 4-3-2-1. So if the person comes first, you get four points. If they come second, you get two points. So say you only guessed two people in there, but they come first and second, you get seven points. Oh, okay, so it's going to be like a count back. So if you get all four, whoever actually gets them in the order actually gets higher points. Well, no, I don't want you to give the order. I just want you to give... It's so complicated. I'm not going to edit this either. Okay, so just give us four people, okay? Because no one's going to guess the final four, okay? But say you do get three people in there and someone else gets three people in there, it depends on where they finish. So if that person finishes last, you get one point for that person. Yep, okay. Does that make sense? Yep. No, it does. And in the event that people do get four and it's four, then we go to, because they're all going to have the same amount of points, right, because they're not putting in order, then we will go to a random draw, right? Sure, yep. If two or three people get the final four right, which is going to be super-duper impressive, we will generate a random number for you. And it doesn't... Hey, this one is open to everyone. So if you're in Japan, if you're in Germany, Mr Scott from Pink Stadium will ship them to you no matter where you are, even if you're in the Galapagos Islands. It doesn't matter where you are. Yeah. So, yeah, look, massive, massive thank you to Scott from Pink Stadium. He reached out to us and said, hey guys, why don't you do this? So it's really generous of him. So he will ship them anywhere in the world. So get your entries in. Well, Pinberg starts here on Thursday morning at about 9.30. So what time will that be in Australia? Anyway, by before Thursday 9.30 US time, you need to have your entries in. I guess if people guess after it starts, then there's a little bit of advantage if someone's going to conk out, right? If someone's doing really bad. Yeah, I don't know. Okay. We'll see how strict we're going to be. But yeah, don't ignore us after the Timberfront has happened and say, oh, did I get my thing in? I promise I haven't washed. It's not going to happen. All right. I'll do a Facebook post and a Pinsir post as well to explain it. Yeah, just to explain the rules. Give us more time. Yeah. But speaking of Pinberg, I can confirm that my first ringer for the Trash Talker Invitational podcast, Bloodbath, has been confirmed, Ryan. Oh. Are you going to know this? Yeah. No. You don't even know this either. No. So, Jimmy Nails from Australia will be my first ringer. Nice. Nice. He is nice. So Jimmy, who we had on the show twice, in fact, very rare to happen. Is he a good trash talker, though? He's such a nice guy. Yeah, I'd ask him to brush up on his fledgling, so we'll see how we go. It's not about the quality of the player, Marty. It's about the trash talk you're going to. I think his strength, it's not in trash talking. his strength will be in genuine disappointing looks. Because he is such a nice guy and he's the kind of guy you would want his approval. For him to look at you with pity would be the worst thing that could ever happen. Or is it going to be like, if someone tries to trash talk Jimmy, then they're truly an arsehole? That's right. Insulting Mother Teresa or something. My ace in the sleeve. If you have a go at Jimmy, You are a bad person. Right? He is the most likable person you will ever meet. Okay. What else can I tell you? So, I, just for everybody so you know, I do not have roussacks. However, if you do want roussacks, you are actually able to buy them at Pinberg at the Double Danger stand. Just for letting you know. Our good friend Ryan from Comic Pinball has organized those. I think it's a limited amount. I was talking to him a couple of weeks ago and giving him my roostax supplier, so genuine Aussie roostax at Pimberg. Yep, on the black market. Cash only, cash only. And the other thing I just wanted to say is, so T-shirts, the head-to-head pinball T-shirts, they're awesome. Nothing can go wrong. So I'm handing them to previous guests of ours at Pimberg And so I, you know, I love to get a little bit organized, so I printed off little labels and tags and all this kind of stuff. And the night before, so I picked up these shirts five weeks ago, I think. So the night before, I decided to pack them all in my bag. And as I'm packing them, I realized that the XL and two XL shirts don't have any printing on the back. The main part of the T-shirt completely missed. Fail. Fail completely. Well, I was kicking myself because had I actually... I mean, I looked at what was on the top of the box and there was all the small, medium and large and they were all fine. I didn't bother to look further than that. I just assumed, well, if I've checked 15 of these shirts, surely the remaining 15 are also fine. Well, they're not. But they are going to be shipping me replacement T-shirts. Hopefully I'll get them in time. They're shipping them directly to the hotel in Pittsburgh. Hopefully they get there. Otherwise, those people that I promised T-shirts to, I will mail them to you. Are they going to career them? Because we'll get there in enough time if it's like FedEx or DHL or something. Yeah, I hope so. We'll see how we go. Otherwise, name and shame, Marty. We'll destroy them. We'll. With our massive following, we'll just... It's a social media crime. Yeah. So other than that, here I am in Toronto. amongst the murders. Excited about Pimberg, though? Are you nervous? Excited? What are you... It's your first Pimberg. No, do you know what? I'm actually really not thinking about it at this stage. No, I'm not. I'm actually here in Toronto to have some fun beforehand. I'm catching up with Jeff Teolis tomorrow, so I'm very much looking forward to that. That's kind of what I'm looking forward to. as soon as I get to Pittsburgh I'll be very excited like the night before, I mean I didn't get excited about this trip till two days before I left that's the best type of trip though right because when you think about it for six months then there can be nothing better to do correct so the night before I'm sure when I'm driving down I'll get excited then cool so I mean just before we move on. Do you want to give your guesses for the top four on the final day at Pimberg? No, I'll give my top four next week. Okay. Come on, Marty. I reckon... I don't know. It's easy to almost offend people since we've had so many top players on the podcast. No, let's not do it. Let's not leave it to people. No, I don't give a fuck. I'll offend people. Okay. my my my Keith Elwin I think will be there he's he's there a lot that's that's a decent bet um Steven Bowden he has played I don't I'm not sure if he's ever been well recently anyway in the top four at Pimberg but he played all the machines okay he's he's I think he's like 12th at the moment he's pretty high up um I reckon he'll be there uh who else Colin MacAlpine Okay. I think he's going to follow up with a very strong... Yeah. And Joshua Zach Sharp. I don't know. One of them. One of the Sharps. The same people, right? Good luck. Same life. Okay. Done. There we go. Oh, sorry. See, there's too many good players. Yeah. All right. Well, that's my four. Okay. The five. All I'm looking at now is the World Play Rankings. Mm-hmm. Okay. The Power 100? Because that's what it is. It's them against them. Yeah. So I'm just going to put some names out there. Some of them I know. Some of them I don't know. I'm going to say... Eric Stone. I'm going to say... Zach Sharp. Hey, look at the guy on the top of the Power 100. He's ranked 182nd in the world, but he's number one in the world above Keith Elwin in the Power 100. Christian Slazali. I don't know how to say Slazali. You've got nothing there. If Daniel A is there, which I think he is, he'll always do really well. And Steven Bowden. I reckon he's going to have a great year this year. There we go. There you go, guys. Awesome. All right. Anything else this week, Marty? No, that's it for me. I haven't done, yeah, crazy amounts. I mean, besides getting your Iron Maiden and playing it a lot, we already kind of covered that. Hey, last night in the stream, Marty, I'll link the stream in the show notes, Jordan Troy, like, he blew up the game. Like, the first ball, the first game he had wasn't that great. The second game, I think he got, like, 900 and something million. The third game, I think it was, he was trying to get to Battle the Beast and to Battle the Beast, Marty, you need the four cards in the middle. There's so many mini-wizard modes. That's kind of one of them. I guess it's kind of like the major wizard mode if you don't include the secret wizard mode which Keith talked about where you need to collect the ten tombstone awards. Ferris, tomb, treasures, whatever it is. So he qualified the mode, Marty, right? So he was ready to go. But, in qualifying the modes, like, the last thing he needed to do was to start 2 minutes to midnight. Right. Right? Was it 2 minutes to midnight? Yes. So, 2 minutes to midnight is a single ball play game. So it's not like it's a multiball and when it's over it'll be lit. It was single ball and there was a high chance that he was going to drain if he kind of played it out. And he would have got a shitload of points. So the entire time he was playing, he was just like, if he drained the ball while ball save was on, it'll fast forward like 10 seconds. I should drain the ball, I should drain the ball, I should drain the ball. But he wasn't. He was hitting his shots at about 100 million, and the ball save light was still flashing, Marty. So he's like, okay, I'm going to drain the ball now and progress the clock forward so I run out of time. So he drains the ball. Obviously it takes, like, you know, time for the ball to hit the switch in the trough, right? Literally by the time he drained, it must have been like 0.1 of a second. the ball save light turns off and there's no grace period. Like, zero grace period. And I'm pretty sure, I might have to watch the stream again, that you know how when the ball save is about to expire it starts flashing, like, really fast? Like, hey, it's about to expire. It wasn't doing that, I don't think. So, it's not really a bug, but it was just heartbreaking because he was trying to see the mode for the first time, trying to show everyone the mode for the first time by not playing two minutes to midnight and he just kind of got ripped off and it was just, it was just so deflating. So, yeah, that'll be in the show notes to watch Jordan do that, which he would never do again. Next time he would just play the mode. I look forward to resetting those scores when I get a fact check. About a billion you need to get on the list, Marty. That's not bad. That's not bad. Something to chase. Something to chase. I like that. Yeah. What else? I went to a meet on the weekend, Marty. Axel had his meet. You missed out on that. Have you been to Axel's house, Marty? No, I haven't. Okay. It's another one that's a bit out there. Plenty of ditches there, Marty, with your name on it. It was funny. When I was driving out, I'd be like, holy shit, Marty would have crashed his car here for sure. It's a really nice place, Marty. And his games room is just so cool. Games rooms with high ceilings are the shit. It's just every pinball room, which, hey, mine is, and 99% of them are that have normal ceilings. For me, it feels kind of like crush-a-phobic, which is fine, that's how they all are. But when you have pinballs with a high ceiling, it just feels nice to walk into that room. Yeah, there's a video I put up on Facebook of that. I had so much fun, Marty. Every time I go on one of these meets, I'm like, why do I play competitions? It's not as fun. And then I play a competition, I'm like, ah, meets are boring because you're not winning and getting woppers and stuff. and it's just, I've got two pinball personalities and I had a bit of fun playing Black Rose because no one's ever told me how to play Black Rose. I don't want to watch videos playing Black Rose. I don't want to watch people. I don't want to read. I just want someone, every game I play that I've never played before, I want someone sitting next to me telling me what to do and cheering me on and that's what Axel did. This is how you play Black Rose and this is how you get the jackpots and spell the letters and stuff. It's a cool pinball machine. I'm not sure, I mean, I said I had one good game and that's why I like it. I'm not sure if there's anything past that or if I want it to have it in my collection, but it's fun. It's fun to shoot. Yeah, it is a good game. It's got some good Brian Eddy rules and it's a fun design. Artwork is fucking horrible, though. That chick on the back... That chick on the back last does not look like a... Right, right. She does not look like a human being. She looks like some kind of weird... I don't know. That's about it, Marty. All right, so shall we go to the mailbag, Ryan? Sure. Do you have it open? Because I don't. I do. So there's a couple here. And the first one, it's a long one, Ryan, but it's really relevant. This is all about Kickstarter. So this is from Hugh, because we asked if people could write to us, and we literally got the gold standard of replies right here. Okay. I didn't even see this email, so this is interesting, because I've been listening for the first time. This is honestly amazing, right? So you asked for comments on Kickstarters. I ran a successful Kickstarter, but it was not a traditional one. And he sent us a link. He said the Kickstarter had two purposes. First of all, to see if there was enough interest in the open pinball project boards to actually make a run of them and continue to spend the time to support the project. Two, free marketing to get information about the project to a wider audience than just my blog. He said, so the project was trying to get $72. It made the goal. The goal was only to cover my costs without bringing any profit. $72 total or $72 of each person? Probably $72 of each person, maybe. I don't know. Okay. I should probably look at the link here just to see, because it might actually have been $72,000 that he was after. So he does continue. Yeah, $72 goal. That's all it is. Yep. There you go. Cool. Yep. Okay. Better than the half a million that Dutch PMO1 is. Yep, there you go. As such, the numbers of backers was actually a hindrance to me. Having half the backers would have made fulfillment easier. Limiting it to only people in the U.S. would have been much easier. Shipping to another country involves customs, filling out paperwork, stating if it's a gift or not. Calling it a gift seemed incorrect. So how much do I put the value of the packages? You just lie and call it a gift. That's the way you lie. Right, yeah. So the Kickstarter was successfully completed. My estimation on completing the shipments was by the beginning of September, but all the packages were sent by the middle of June, about a month and a half early. While the Kickstarter was successful, it has probably reduced the chance that I'll ever do it again. I loved the technical aspects because that's what I do for work. You really need to create a video to get people to support your project. I not only hate being on camera, but I hate editing down video even more. Having you guys edit a podcast every week is amazing to me. Well, it is to us. All the free tools to edit videos are atrocious and nearly, nearly unusable. I disliked the boxing it up and sending packages to people because it just isn't something that's enjoyable lots of paperwork that I wasn't 100% certain if I was filling it out properly I love this email, it's so honest you know what I mean? that's what I mean well no, this is like software engineering that I did in uni it's just that everyone in my level loved doing the course, but then they get a job and they realize that 90% of the job is talking to people which all these software engineers didn't know how to do and don't know how to do. And it's, you know what I mean? Like, this is that project. He doesn't like shipping. That's what you have to do when you sell something. That's fine. This is a good email. Yeah, keep going. He says, As of mid-August, Mezel Mods is selling the boards, so I don't have to bother with fulfilling orders and sending them around the world. I still do all the technical support, which is the part I enjoy. There are currently people spread across the world that use the boards and have built fully operational machines using them. Will I do another Kickstarter? Probably not, unless I can recover more money for the time that I put into it. It took me about 100 hours for the Kickstarter project. If I was paying myself for the time, it doesn't make sense. If I do it simply to give back to the people community, it was an overwhelming success. So here's what I would say for Kickstarters. One, support only with money you can afford to lose. Let's just stop right there. It's completely profound. Support with only money you can afford to lose. Only support people who have already put a crapload of sweat equity into the project they're pitching. If they don't believe in the project, why should you? If they are passionate about something, they should have already demonstrated it and have a pretty good backstory. three don't support a project that is simply a lower priced version of something else he's actually going back as hmm mine might have fallen into this category so this product normally costs x but we're going to get you something better for a quarter of the price if this is the pitch make damn sure that they can tell you why and how they will make that reduction in price happen, not just because they hope it will happen. Four, be wary of people pitching economies of scale. Completing a project is difficult. Completing a project where fulfillment will involve large-scale manufacturing is doubly difficult. Just because you can make a prototype, it is quite a different set of skills to pull off a large-scale manufacturing and fulfillment. Thunderbirds. well, highway, you know, Dutch, you know, all of them, right? You know, they've got these prototypes. Mafia. I'm just joking, I'm joking, I'm joking. But it's exactly that. And that was kind of what I was saying about these economies of scale that has really been the common denominator that I've discovered with any sort of failed Kickstarter and therefore failed, you know, pinball program as well. and why I also say that Spooky got it right is just cap it to what you know you can deliver. And if you don't get funding for what you said you were going to cap, then it was never meant to be. You weren't meant to be that successful tech person or that pinball owner. It was just never meant to be. Stop building these companies on other people's money. Well, that's the way people are applauding for Team Pinball. Is that what they're called? Team Pinball? Team Pinball, yeah. Running out of pinball names. Team Pinball. Pinball Brothers. So that was just such a phenomenal email. And again, as you were saying, just refreshingly honest, just down to earth, just here's what happened, real-life example, and some really good words of wisdom and advice at the end there. And this is right. support only with money you can afford to lose. And that's why, you know, when people were talking about the headphones and all that other stuff, I kind of went, you know what? And I'm on this closed Facebook group where everybody's talking about how they're trying to sue them and get their money back, and people have lodged complaints with their banks on whether they get money or not. So I don't want that kind of situation in my life. Just move it on. But that's the thing, though, is that people feel like... It's like what's going on when I'm with Kevin Kulik. I don't even know if it's still going on. I mean, if no one chases him, then, you know, everyone feels like there's no lesson learned and it's going to happen again to somebody else. Yeah, people want justice served, right? Yeah. I'm with you, though. I'm not that type of person that will... I'm not giving people an open invitation to rip me off, but I'm not the kind of person who will spend years of his life thinking about it because it'll just destroy me mentally to chase down a couple hundred bucks or something. Exactly. We've got another email from Nicholas Nerman who let us know what Keith was talking about with his punches and his knuckles. I read the email, but I'm almost even more confused. Even though he explained it perfectly, I need to just see a video or a picture of it because I'm just dumb. How about let me read it out whilst you just think about it? No, I read it right before the podcast. Okay. What I want you to do, Marty, is I want you to film him doing it at Pimberg and send me the video. Okay, but we've now mentioned his email, so we've got to read it out. Okay. You know, all 100,000 of them. He says, if you pay attention to Keith's plunging, you will notice that he puts his two knuckles, index and major fingers, against the cab and plunges with those two fingers. That's how he measures the soft plunge. He pulls the plunger by pushing it away from the cab with his two fingers with his knuckles against the cab. It's a much better strategy than just looking at the plunger for reference because if you're at a different angle to the machine, the plunge will end up different. By using a physical reference, one-handed, you can get really repeatable plunges with only your eyes as a confirmation. says you've just got to watch for the springs. Sometimes it feels different if the plunger's being toyed with or the plunger pin is bent. Yeah. Don't get it. Well, I'm thinking, how do you put your knuckles up against the cabinet with one hand and then pull it back? Because then your arm is, like, derping. It just doesn't work. Yeah, okay. I can't... I'm not a words person. I need to just see it and, like, okay, that's how you do it. That's it. Yeah. I'm going to be like, he's going to be up on stage in the finals, and he's going to be turning around and go, will you fucking get away from me with that camera? I'm trying to fucking win this thing. I want you to be right, right. This is the podcast. 500,000 listens. I want you to be right behind. He's like in between his shorts. Just the best angle possible, Marty. We got a bunch of emails from Scott Larson. One was about Japan, which I won't read. to the other one. He's given you ideas about wearing compression stockings. Yep. Yep. Are you going to do that? Did you buy them, Marty? Are you going to do that? What's the sign thinking about it? Okay. There was an email about Japanese girls. I'm not going to read that one. What else was there? There was an email about Japanese toys. I got a lot of messages about the Japanese toys. Japanese toys. Yep. Everyone said, hey, you were doing it wrong, you were doing it wrong. I'm like, okay, well, tell me the right order to press all these buttons. And everyone's like, well, I don't know, but obviously the whole room is not meant to smell like poo. So it's still a mystery, Marty. Next time I go there, I'll figure it out. And there we go. Awesome. There you go. Thank you, everybody, for listening again. And this time next week, we will know the winners of Pinberg and therefore the winners of a brand new set of PIM Stadium lights. Be sure to email in four names. It doesn't matter what order. Just four names of the people that are in the final four at PIMBURG. You can put Marty in there if you want, but that's just like... Marty, did you get the spreadsheet, Marty? It depends. If you got the spreadsheet, you might be up there. Did you get the spreadsheet? No. No. Nope. Fuck, go on. No. Also, just to say, you know, there was an amazing guide sponsored by Deadflip. An amazing guide for... Deflip? Deflip. Deflip. An amazing guide for Pinbird. It lists every single game in their banks, and then you've got links to either videos or pin tips or all the kind of references. It is the best guide. So I'm going to use that because ultimately I'm not going to have to play all the machines. So rather than study 288 machines, I will just study whatever I get picked. Good idea, Marty. Yeah, that's what I think. Cool. Who's doing the editing, Marty? Is it me? It's me. Really? Yeah, it's now midnight. I'll give it a couple more hours. That's what I do for our learning. I was looking forward to, you know, screwing up the inside thing and saving the MP3 wrong. All right, next week. Let me do the editing next week, okay? Okay, sounds good. Hey, and we've got a really big interview that will probably not happen because it never happens when I announce it, but a really big interview next week with an industry person. So look forward to possibly hearing that if all the stars align and maybe, maybe not. All right, see you, everyone. see ya 5,000 listeners There's a hidden mask And it's sound is a monkey No, there's a ninja Hey, let's go! King Cards The important things are the most important What's wrong with me? So let's fight it Let's fight it love I don't understand the reason I don't know why The color is so good The best winter ever The sky is full of flowers The precious things are not enough The river is shallow, let's fight Let's fight, take it out Let's fight, take it out Hey, let's go, King Katsu! Let's fight, take love! Let's fight, take love This is a little stupid I don't know why The colors are a little bit It's okay, we do it all the time Hey, hey, let's go, kick off There's nothing more important I'm sorry, so let's fight, take Let's fight, take love Last White Day Love _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 7d85fe33-1361-4511-8768-53f1fcba9989*