# What's your favourite gimmick? **Source:** BlahCade Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2024-08-06 **Duration:** 90m 7s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/blahcade-pinball-podcast/episodes/Whats-your-favourite-gimmick-e2njq55 --- ## Analysis Chris Freebus and Jared Morgan discuss pinball culture across multiple topics: Jared's Timeline machine won Best in Show at Brisbane Pinball and Arcade Collective, discovery of another Gottlieb collector in Australia, Zen's upcoming digital pinball releases (Goat Simulator and Princess Bride), speculation on Bally/Williams classic tables coming to Zen, AtGames Legends Pinball 4K's new pricing tiers and OTG mode technical frustrations, and design philosophy around insert visibility and accessibility. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Timeline machine won Best in Show for Solid State at Brisbane Pinball and Arcade Collective (BPAC) — _Jared Morgan stating personal achievement; festival award confirmation_ - [HIGH] Another Gottlieb collector exists in Melbourne with a large collection including System 80s machines — _Jared Morgan confirmed via Facebook connections and BPAC attendees; cross-referenced via PinballOwners.com_ - [HIGH] Zen announced Princess Bride and Goat Simulator tables releasing at end of month; both companies claim coincidence despite similar prior licensing overlaps (Texas Chainsaw/Mandalorian) — _Chris Freebus reporting Zen Pinball Bites announcement; Mel (P3) confirmed coincidence to podcast_ - [HIGH] Zen hinted at three-table pack from Bally/Williams: one from 1988, two from 1989; speculation limited to System 11 titles — _Chris Freebus citing Pinball Bites announcement and cross-referencing IPDB for technical accuracy_ - [HIGH] AtGames released DreamWorks Pack (Trolls, Dragons, Kung Fu Panda), Gearbox Pack (Borderlands, Brothers in Arms, Homeworld), My Little Pony, Garfield, and Godzilla/Kong tables — _Jared Morgan detailing recent AtGames Legends Pinball 4K content drops_ - [HIGH] AtGames introduced $200 cheaper cabinet option with only one game (Addams Family or Attack from Mars), no topper, OTG locked behind additional $100 paywall — _Chris Freebus reporting AtGames pricing changes; analyzing cost structure and community backlash_ - [MEDIUM] Third-party VPX port to AtGames Legends Pinball 4K cabinet exists and is functional; AtGames is reportedly onboard with this despite locking it behind paywall for standard models — _Jared Morgan describing emerging third-party VPX implementation on thumb drive; context suggests emerging/not fully released_ - [HIGH] OTG mode has technical issues: keyboard mode restricts plunger to full-pull (no skill shots), gamepad mode blocks analog nudge and PC navigation control — _Jared Morgan detailing troubleshooting experience with OTG controller modes; specific technical description_ - [HIGH] Zen's Jaws table influenced Stern's Jaws table design, particularly pop-up target mechanics — _Chris and Jared both agreeing on design influence; comparing Zen digital to Stern physical implementation_ - [HIGH] Pat Lawlor's Earthshaker established 'Nevada and California split' trope later referenced in Road Show wizard mode — _Chris Freebus and Jared discussing Williams callback design patterns across Lawlor titles_ ### Notable Quotes > "Even in rural—there ain't nobody around—Oregon, there's freaking more pinball than, you know, within 50 miles of me." > — **Chris Freebus**, early > _Anecdote about pinball distribution and regional culture; observation about rural arcade presence in Pacific Northwest_ > "Williams back then was like, yeah, hold my beer. Let's do about—let's do four and a quarter. That sounds good." > — **Jared Morgan**, mid > _Comparing production volume of classic era Williams/Bally to modern Stern's max four per year_ > "I think that Mousing Around is—I think Mousing Around is the superior cat game if you were looking for a cat and mouse." > — **Chris Freebus**, mid > _Game design comparison and player preference within speculation about upcoming Zen classic pack_ > "What are they doing? Nickel and diming people?" > — **Jared Morgan**, late > _Community sentiment reaction to AtGames pricing structure and feature lockouts; expresses frustration with business model_ > "But it's not even a piece of hardware. It's literally a software thing that you pay your $100, and they go, bink, okay, now you have access." > — **Chris Freebus**, late > _Critique of AtGames pricing strategy for OTG mode unlock; highlights perceived unfairness of software-only paywall_ > "The problem that I've run into is that the plunger is either full pull or no pull. There's no in between, right?" > — **Jared Morgan**, late > _Specific technical limitation in AtGames OTG keyboard mode affecting skill shot execution_ > "You're happy just to experience them as they are on the cabinet." > — **Chris Freebus**, mid-late > _Summarizing preference for native cabinet mode over OTG complexity; reflects user behavior trend_ > "I would buy a dedicated PC for it. And because of those problems, I would just never, never touch it." > — **Jared Morgan**, end > _Resolution of OTG frustration discussion; indicates preference to avoid integrated OTG entirely despite hardware investment_ > "Big triangles is the reason why they had them on Bally Williams. Because you could not miss them." > — **Jared Morgan**, mid > _Design philosophy regarding insert visibility and playfield clarity; historical context for modern digital table UI issues_ > "I still hate the fact that it's the same two actors that performed on Alien vs. Predator doing their stupid call-outs." > — **Jared Morgan**, mid > _Critique of Kong/Godzilla table voice acting quality; identifies actor reuse across AtGames licensed content_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Chris Freebus | person | Co-host of BlahCade Pinball Podcast; uses username 'Shut Your Trap'; based in North America; covers digital and physical pinball | | Jared Morgan | person | Co-host of BlahCade Pinball Podcast; based in Australia (Queensland); custom pinball builder with Timeline award-winning machine; Gottlieb collector; extensively troubleshoots AtGames Legends Pinball 4K OTG integration | | Zen Studios | company | Digital pinball platform; announced Princess Bride and Goat Simulator tables; developing upcoming Bally/Williams classic pack; cross-pollinating design with Stern (Jaws influence) | | AtGames | company | Manufacturer of Legends Pinball 4K cabinet; released DreamWorks, Gearbox, and Godzilla/Kong packs; introduced tiered pricing model with OTG paywall; implementing third-party VPX support | | P3 (Pinball Productions) | company | Digital pinball platform developing Princess Bride table; coincidentally releasing simultaneously with Zen on same IP; confirmed no coordination with Zen | | Brisbane Pinball and Arcade Collective (BPAC) | event | Australian pinball festival where Jared's Timeline machine won Best in Show for Solid State category | | Stern Pinball | company | Physical pinball manufacturer; Jaws table influenced by Zen digital version; limited to ~4 releases per year (contrasted with classic Williams era production volume) | | Williams | company | Classic pinball manufacturer (pre-Stern era); produced 4+ tables per year in 1988-1989; acquired Bally in 1988; System 11 architecture used in classic titles | | Bally | company | Classic pinball manufacturer; acquired by Williams in 1988; used System 6803 architecture through 1988-1989; some titles later ported to Zen digital platform | | Pat Lawlor | person | Legendary pinball designer; created Earthshaker (1989) with 'Nevada/California split' design element; established design tropes referenced in later games like Road Show | | Timeline | game | Custom pinball machine built by Jared Morgan; won Best in Show for Solid State at BPAC; recent achievement during podcast hiatus | | Princess Bride | game | Upcoming digital pinball title from Zen Studios; features audio lifted directly from film; cartoony art style; mini-playfield mechanic similar to Excalibur; scheduled end-of-month release | | Goat Simulator | game | Upcoming digital pinball title from Zen Studios; features variable ball physics (bowling ball, golf ball); based on game Mel fondly remembered; scheduled end-of-month release; features backward-rolling ball effect | | Jaws | game | Stern physical pinball machine; influenced by Zen digital Jaws implementation; pop-up target mechanics adapted from Zen design; referenced in pricing/value retention discussions | | Earthshaker | game | 1989 Pat Lawlor Williams classic; features Nevada/California split toy; last of Lawlor's disaster-themed tables; speculated as candidate for upcoming Zen Bally/Williams pack | | Legends Pinball 4K | product | AtGames cabinet hardware; supports native and OTG modes; new pricing tier offers $200 discount with single game, no topper, locked OTG; community backlash over feature paywalls | | Black Knight 2000 | game | 1989 Williams title; speculated candidate for upcoming Zen Bally/Williams pack; sequel to original Black Knight | | Cyclone | game | 1988 Williams title; sequel to Comet; speculated candidate for Zen Bally/Williams pack; Chris recalls playing in arcade nostalgia | | Addams Family | game | 1992 Pat Lawlor Williams classic; included as sole game option on AtGames discounted cabinet tier; referenced in pricing discussion | | Attack from Mars | game | Williams title; included as alternative sole game option on AtGames discounted cabinet tier | | PinballOwners.com | organization | Online database/community site for pinball machine ownership and collection tracking; where Jared discovered other Australian Gottlieb collector | | Gottlieb System 80 | product | Classic pinball architecture; Jared collects multiple titles; rare in Australia; one other known collector in Melbourne also owns System 80 titles | | Scott Hutchinson | person | Pinball collector and Hutchinson Builders; owns significant Gottlieb collection; likely does not overlap with Jared's specific titles | | Mel | person | P3 pinball designer/representative; confirmed Princess Bride timing was coincidence; mentioned attending trade fairs for IP licensing discussions | ### Topics - **Primary:** Digital pinball platforms (Zen Studios releases), AtGames Legends Pinball 4K hardware, pricing, and OTG integration issues, Classic pinball machine speculation (Bally/Williams upcoming Zen pack) - **Secondary:** Pinball collection and restoration culture (Gottlieb machines, regional discovery), Pinball design philosophy and mechanical innovation (insert visibility, toys, callbacks), IP licensing and coincidental simultaneous releases (Princess Bride, Texas Chainsaw) - **Mentioned:** Tournament and award recognition (BPAC Best in Show), Pinball nostalgia and arcade culture (regional venue exploration, childhood memories) ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.35) — Positive sentiment around Zen's upcoming releases, Jared's Timeline award, and discovery of fellow collectors. Significant negative sentiment regarding AtGames' pricing strategy, OTG technical frustrations, and perceived nickel-and-diming. Neutral to appreciative discussion of classic machine design philosophy and digital implementations. ### Signals - **[announcement]** Zen Studios announced two new tables (Princess Bride and Goat Simulator) releasing end of month via Pinball Bites show (confidence: high) — Chris Freebus: 'Zen had another Pinball Bites show. They announced their next two tables that are releasing at the end of this month. One of them is Goat Simulator... And then the other one is Princess Bride' - **[announcement]** Zen announced upcoming three-table pack from Bally/Williams with one 1988 title and two 1989 titles; System 11 speculation narrows candidate list to four Williams tables (confidence: high) — Chris: 'The other thing that came out in that Pinball Bites was a hint as to the next three tables. So it's going to be a three-table pack, apparently, for Bally Williams... one is from 1988, and two are from 1989' - **[licensing_signal]** Zen and P3 both developing Princess Bride tables simultaneously; both parties confirm coincidence despite pattern of similar timing (Texas Chainsaw/Mandalorian mentioned as prior example) (confidence: high) — Chris: 'Now, we had reached out to Mel, and he swears that the Princess Bride was purely coincidence... That's three in a row that are coincidences' - **[product_launch]** AtGames Legends Pinball 4K released multiple content packs: DreamWorks (Trolls, Dragons, Kung Fu Panda), Gearbox (Borderlands, Brothers in Arms, Homeworld), My Little Pony, Garfield, and Godzilla/Kong threesome (confidence: high) — Jared: 'they dropped the DreamWorks Pack... they dropped the Gearbox Pack... they just dropped Garfield, and they finally released the Godzilla and Kong threesome' - **[market_signal]** AtGames introduced tiered pricing: $200 cheaper option with single game (Addams Family or Attack from Mars), no topper, OTG locked, third-party apps blocked; additional $100 for OTG unlock (confidence: high) — Chris: 'they're now offering basically saving you two hundred dollars. But here's what you sacrifice: you're only able to get either Addams Family or Attack from Mars... and they just dropped Garfield, and they finally released the Godzilla and Kong threesome' - **[product_concern]** AtGames OTG mode has multiple technical limitations: keyboard mode prevents skill shots (full plunger pull only), gamepad mode blocks analog nudge and PC navigation, display switching causes audio loss, D-pad navigation skips rows in Zen menu (confidence: high) — Jared detailed multiple frustrations: 'The problem that I've run into is that the plunger is either full pull or no pull... nudge does not work in gamepad mode... you cannot control anything on your PC... when you go to use the D-pad to select tables in Zen, it skips one row' - **[community_signal]** Community expressed frustration with AtGames' nickel-and-diming approach to feature paywalls, particularly locking OTG mode ($100) and third-party app support despite hardware being loss leader (confidence: high) — Jared: 'What are they doing? Nickel and diming people?' Chris: 'the community is just going, I'm sorry, what?' - **[technology_signal]** Third-party developers successfully ported VPX to AtGames Legends Pinball 4K via thumb drive; AtGames reportedly onboard with this despite blocking it on discounted cabinet tiers (confidence: medium) — Jared: 'they've figured out how to put VPX onto a thumb drive and be able to run it through AtGames's graphics card... AtGames is fully on board with this. But this little maneuver would block that from being able to happen' - **[design_philosophy]** Discussion of playfield insert design philosophy: historical Bally/Williams used large triangles for visibility and missability; modern digital tables struggle with small text-heavy inserts at distance, particularly in 2K+ resolutions and isometric perspective (confidence: high) — Jared: 'Big triangles is the reason why they had them on Bally Williams. Because you could not miss them... the inserts are directional, but they are very small' - **[design_innovation]** Goat Simulator table features multiple ball types with different physics (bowling ball, golf ball); Chris speculates this could add gameplay depth similar to Twilight Zone ceramic ball mechanic (confidence: medium) — Chris: 'there was a bowling ball and a golf ball... I would love it if they all had different physics... when playing Twilight Zone, you got the ceramic ball out there. It's just a little bit different' - **[design_innovation]** Zen's digital Jaws influenced Stern's physical Jaws table design, particularly pop-up target mechanics; Williams historically included design callbacks across titles (Earthshaker's Nevada/California split referenced in Road Show) (confidence: high) — Chris and Jared: 'Zen pop-up target... Clearly, their Jaws table influenced Stern's Jaws table... Well, 100% it did' and discussing Pat Lawlor tropes - **[sentiment_shift]** Jared's opinion of Kong and Godzilla tables shifted positively after playing native cabinet mode vs. TV isometric view; insert visibility and ball tracking now readable, enabling better score progression despite retaining voice acting critique (confidence: high) — Jared: 'where previously I did not enjoy the Kong table because I couldn't tell where the hell the ball was rolling, now I fully understand... I'm actually doing some decent scores' --- ## Transcript BlahCade Pinball Podcast this is the blockade pimple podcast i'm your host chris freebus aka shut your trap joining me as always halfway across the world it's jared morgan hey there chris hey everyone how are we all collectively going we're doing collectively well we've had a very large gap here in between shows uh oh yeah partly because vacations happened on my end and partly because i was playing pinball a lot yeah on the other yeah so we're going to touch upon those yeah we'll touch upon those real quickly um i had uh flown up north to uh my mother-in-law's up in Washington. We picked up a car and then drove down the Washington, Oregon, and California coast, which is quite the drive. I'm not going to bore you with the details of the drive, but I did want to point out one thing. So remember when I'd gone to Portland to work on a TV show, Jared? Oh, yeah. Yes. And I commented about how, my God, there was just pinball everywhere in oregon right oh yes yeah okay so we're driving down the 101 we're just like nothing's around in this area does this little curve away from the ocean to go in and there's everything's one street towns uh when you're in this portion right but it comes to a t juncture for the for this highway and then you turn right and right at that t there's an arcade like and it's like a little tiny small mom and dad mom and dad kind of building right but through the doorway i can already see five pinball machines you're going oh did you drop in no no we were we were on a we were on a i was driving for like 11 hours that day so you're on mission we were on mission but it just cracked me up i'm like my god even in rural there ain't nobody around oregon there's freaking more pinball than you know within 50 miles of me yeah yeah that's wild um so yeah that was that was uh kind of uh kind of interesting there you uh happened to win an award for one of your machines yes yes that's right i don't have it yet um but like physically in my person um but yes my latest machine timeline got best in show for solid state at um the brisbane pinball and arcade collective or BPAC as it's known. Look at that. Festival. Yeah. That's fantastic. Best in show. It's pretty cool. I know that I had seen a post and I didn't comment because I wanted to find out more from you. You think you've discovered somebody else in Australia that has some Gottliebs? Yeah. It's been confirmed actually. Oh, okay. The guy does actually. I put an innocent post up on Facebook asking, there's this site called pinballowners.com. Yes. And I thought, I'll search up some of my titles that I've got and put the filters to a shred. And there's this one other guy, and he has a massive, massive collection of pinball machines. It's not just Gottlieb System 80s, but a whole bunch of other ones, like modern games and 90s games and stuff. But he has a lot of Gottlieb System 80s, like a big collection. And I thought, oh, that's weird. The last update was like 2010, so I thought, you know, maybe it's old listing you know but no there was a couple of people i met at bpac who subsequently um friended me on facebook and i started the discussion and i said oh yeah oh yeah that's this guy and you know we used to go over to his place and like have pinball meets over at his place and all that so yeah there might actually be one other one other person in australia that has the same gains now obviously australia is huge um how close down in melbourne okay so so that's uh that's a couple hundred kilometers from you a couple of thousand couple of thousand kilometers yeah that's okay yeah so that's that ain't like jared's gonna go hey i'm gonna pop in and say hello to this guy say good day no that's a hop in an airplane and go yeah that's that's exactly right that is uh that is quite the trip okay yeah okay pretty pretty cool yeah that is this guy has has the same sort of titles and all his titles are like you can list whether you might be open to trades or sales or whatever and all of his like nope no we'll never sell apparently uh so yeah uh it's pretty cool pretty cool to see that someone else does actually have the same games because i honestly i thought i was the only one that had them yeah probably that's not right because I know Scott Hutchinson of Hutchinson Builders, big, big Gottlieb collective, probably has a lot of the titles, but maybe not mine because I think that only a certain amount of them were brought into the country. So he has a very nice collection of Gottliebs, but I don't think mine are, I don't think there were any doubles, essentially, of my ones. So, yeah. There we go. All right. Let's move on to other things that have actually only happened this week, so we're not behind on this bit of news. um so uh zen had another pinball bites show they announced their next two tables that are uh releasing at the end of this month one of them is goat simulator which is a big huh i was like huh what um yeah and then the other one is princess bride which is uh Wow, what a quinky dinky. Yeah, because P3 have done one as well. Now, we had reached out to Mel, and he swears that the Princess Bride was purely coincidence. There was no, oh, they're doing it, we need to do it kind of thing going on on either party, which is the same thing that happened. What was the other one that... Texas Chainsaw and Mandalorian. yeah true yeah um they've all been just kind of quinky dinks which is really weird that's three in the row that are quinky dinks but yeah you know that's how things work there's obviously a license being released or something yeah um or maybe i think mel i think mentioned in passing they go to these trade fairs where they talk about licensing and properties that are yeah and they were probably shopping this license around and a number of people going oh yeah The Princess Bride will be a good one to do. The Goat Simulator is one from left field. Well, Mel said that it's something that he fondly remembered. Yeah, the Princess Bride. Well, it was also fondly remembered. So it's Mel Nostalgia Pack. I think that's what you should just call it. I really hope they won't, but they probably will. That's what we're going to be calling it from now on. So here's my thing. I watched the trailer for Goat Simulator. I've never played Goat Simulator. Me neither. I'm coming in blind here. completely blind i'm watching the trailer and i'm like why is the ball going backwards but oh yeah but then we see full you know like that's in slow motion but then there's regular video of it going you know normal i'm like i'm not getting i don't understand what there's a reference there that i'm just not getting please help us in the chat tell us what that's about if you know but i did like the fact that there was different types of balls rolling around there was a bowling ball and a golf ball and I don't know what I would love is if they all had different physics oh really I think that I mean wouldn't that be interesting it's kind of like when playing twilight zone you got the ceramic ball out there it's just a little bit different um you know when you're playing challenging it would add a different a different dimension to the table if they did that but the table already looks wacky enough that I'm like why not at this point i don't know yes look i'm i'm very intrigued to play it i have i'll have no idea yeah i need to almost have like can someone give me a goat sim 101 like please help me relate the memes that are in this table and memes and themes in this table so i can understand what's going on because i i will not play goat simulator it's not one that i will play yeah um like in real life so you're gonna have to give me like a cheat sheet for this game uh and then as for princess bride um i was very pleased to hear the audio package going on oh yeah that is voices lifted directly from the movie yeah um and good quality voices too like they sound pretty crisp um the art is interesting because it's got a very cartoony look to it. Yeah. It might be a little too busy for my taste because the castle there is all very square blocks. And I don't know, most of my pinball, I like to have flowy lines. But, you know, jury's out, obviously, until it's in my hands and I'm playing it. Yeah, we've got to flip it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It looks like I'm looking at some of the sizzle reel and I'm going, oh, okay, there's the castle sort of mini play field, a little bit like Excalibur, but not. Obviously, I thought, oh, that feels familiar, but I'm sure it won't be when you play it. Strangely enough, I thought Game of Thrones. Well, yeah, but from the Xen universe, it's definitely Excalibur. Yeah. But, you know, it does look interesting to shoot. Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's going to be probably for me to pick out the two. I think it just has – the layout looks a little bit more enticing for me. I'd also be curious to know the – in terms of those playing up the fact that you're digital pinball, the fire swamp moments with the fire popping out. I was like, okay, that's pretty cool. That's better than a cardboard cutout for sure. it doesn't I mean there are some cardboard cutout pop-up targets that they throw up in the playfield I think that's actually now a zen standard that's how they do playfield interaction which is, you know, if that's how they're doing it that's actually fine and I mean, hey, you know what, clearly their Jaws table influenced Stern's Jaws table well, 100% it did yeah, I've been playing that a bit lately I'm going, oh look at that zen pop-up target there So yeah, it's great to see that crossover where people clearly being inspired by that sort of thing. Yeah. And they've been able to implement it. So it's pretty cool. Yeah. So obviously we'll have more to say about those two tables once we're, you know, actually playing them. Because right now I can just go, yeah, pretty. Leave it at that. Definitely pretty. Now, the other thing that came out in that pinball bites was a hint as to the next two, or not next two, next three tables. So it's going to be a three-table pack, apparently, for Bally Williams. Yeah. And the hint was one is from 1988 and two are from 1989. So, Jared, I thought we would go through a list of all the tables that came out in those two years. And I'm just going to point out, damn, they weren't shy about releasing tables, were they? They were pumping out games in that era. He's Louise. This idea of Stern with, we'll release four a year max. Williams back then was like yeah, hold my beer let's do about let's do four and a quarter that sounds good alright, so here we go, here's our lineup for 1988 I've separated them by What's Bally and What's Williams so for Bally we have The Lost World, Truck Stop Ramp Warrior Blackwater 100 And then the Williams tables are Joker's, Cyclone, Taxi, and Banzai Run. Hmm. Okay. I'm going to note, for those of you that want to try and figure out what they're going to be doing, the Bally tables, this is the year that Williams purchased Bally. The acquisition year. Yeah. So these Bally tables are definitely still very much Bally designed. and Williams didn't really have a hand in any of them. And the Bally ones are all running on that system 6803. Yeah. Whereas the... It's commonly tied as system 11, but it's not. No. Whereas the Williams tables are all system 11. Yeah. Zen has cracked the nut on system 11. I don't believe they've touched 6803. So if you want to do your speculation, I think you limit yourself down to these four, which is Joker's Cyclone Taxi Banzai Run. Interestingly enough, when I think back to... I know I played pinball when I was a kid, but I couldn't tell you what tables I put hands on, right? The tables that I for sure, I vividly remember in high school, driving down to Balboa Fun Zone in Newport Beach, to the arcade that was there, and the tables that I distinctly remember putting quarters into. Haunted House, Banzai Run, and Comet. Right. So it's just kind of fun to be like, wow, well, there's Banzai Run. Comet, Cyclone's obviously the sequel to that, and I probably played Cyclone there also. I happen to remember that little jump ramp into the big holes of Comet Taxi I don't know that I put hands on that early and Jokers I know for a fact I honestly don't know I know I've played it in person but probably years years later I only played Jokers when was that not that long ago it would have been the last five years when I saw it. At one of these places that does all-you-can-play pinball. It was in pretty rough shape, but it was like, oh yeah. There's not a lot going on there. No, but I like to think that 88 is basically the year that I became very much aware of pinball, and then it was 91 when I worked at the arcade that had Whirlwind and Roller Games, and I attribute those two as the tables that I learned how to play pinball on for real. Anyway, those are your 88 tables. Like I said, if I was a betting man, I'd be going for one of those four Williams tables is going to be in that pack. Yeah, the system of 11s. Moving over to 1989, we've got two more Bally's that are 6803. One of them is Atlantis. The other one is Transporter the Rescue. And then we've got what I would call System 11, Bally's Mousing Around, and Elvira and the Party Monster. And then for our Williams tables, we've got Bad Cats, Police Force, Pool? I don't know that I know anything about Pool. What, just called Pool? It's just called Pool. Never heard of that one. Right? Me neither. Black Knight 2000 and Earthshaker. I might have heard of that one. You might have heard of Black Knight 2000. Okay, granted, I'm pulling this list off of somebody who posted to the Facebook fan page of Zen all the tables that come out in that year. Me and Jared already found one table that they'd listed that we went, that don't exist. It doesn't exist on IPDB, which is what I consider the canonical reference. Hold on. I'm going to real quickly look up pool. Pool. You know what that sounds like? It sounds like a Zacharia table with their so original. It absolutely does. So original. Come on. Search for it. Oh, my God. How many different pools are there? Yeah, there's probably a lot. Pool. Williams. 1989. None produced. None produced. Wait, hold on, hold on. Is that right? No, especially. Oh, no. I take it back. Oh, 569 produced. That's a low run. That's a low, low run. It says it became Bally's Pool Sharks. Oh, so it's like an early prototype. Yeah. So I think we can cross pool off the list. Pool's gone. Pool's gone. I know people have been clamoring for bad cats. I think Mouse and the Round is I think Mouse and the Round is the superior cat game if you were looking for a cat and mouse it's the mouse all the way the bad cats I've played it it can essentially become a one trick pony there's like a really big lucrative shot on it that you can get if you get it that's it, you've won basically if you're in competition mode really frustrating game to play I don't know what it is. I've always had a soft, like, I always go, oh, yeah, Police Force. I don't really, I don't know when the last time I ever played it. But for some reason, Police Force always stands out in my mind as, oh, yeah, I remember. I really enjoyed that. So that's there. I personally am rooting for Earthshaker just because that's, you know, the pet luller. But we need all the disaster. Out of all those. I want all the disaster tables, and that would be the last of Lawler's disaster tables. Yeah. Whirlwind, honestly, is probably the pick for me. Not Whirlwind. Earthshaker is the pick for me out of there. It's just such a good one. It is. Really good. Yeah. Great flow. Interesting shots. And just a really cool toy of the Nevada split and Arizona split from California. Yeah, it's so cool. I love that. So anyway, those are your tables. So from 89, it said pick two. Again, I'm going to throw out those System 6803s. So it's Bad Cats, Police Force, Black Knight 2000, Earthshaker, Mouse and Round, Elvira and the Party Monsters to pick between. So good luck speculating, folks. Yeah, good luck speculating. But as an aside, you know, you were saying, you know, it was Nevada and California splitting. You know, that's actually, I think, become a bit of a pinball trope because when you get to the wizard mode in Roadshow, that's what happens. Well, yeah. And it's like, that's also a Pat Lawlerism. Uh-huh, it is. That's why it's fitting. Yeah, it's very fitting. I think it's a lovely nod to Earthshaker. I like that Williams was doing that. It's what Junkyard did, going old school with that. I liked that now and then you'd get call-outs in a table. Twilight Zone did it with the radio. Fastlock. Yeah, Fastlock. Fastlock. Just doing callbacks to other machines. I like that you have the cow Easter eggs in all the machines. I really that just kind of makes me grin be happy about that alright so those are all the Zen announcements on that front I've got other Zen things to talk about but this is all related to AtGames and the Legends Pinball 4K machine so while we've been gone there's been a couple of table drops there Jared alright okay Yeah, so they dropped the DreamWorks pack, which is your Trolls, Dragons, and Kung Fu Panda. That's the ones. And then they also dropped My Little Pony. So basically all of those Apple arcade games. Zim, Pinball Arcade, whatever it's called. Those are all popping out here. They dropped the Gearbox pack. which was Borderlands and Brother in Arms and Homeworld, the other one. I'm like, Homeworld. And then they just dropped Garfield, and they finally released the Godzilla and Kong threesome. Okay, that's out now. Yeah. Good. That's a lot of content. It's a lot of content. it's interesting because you can see like the arcade ones the graphics were never the lighting was never great on any of those to begin with so they translate well over into this pack yeah they're just bright they're just bright yeah so I don think Zen had to do much downgrading of those The gearbox pack obviously they had to shave and cut some corners there Basically, you really don't notice it until you load up the OTG mode and actually look at these games in pinball effects, and then you go, oh, there's the lighting. but if you're but that's again it's it's only if you're doing side by side that you go oh yeah that's where it is but in the moment i kind of just forget about it and it's amazing how often i simply play the native on the cab versions rather than booting up the computer and and playing those you're happy just to experience them as they are on the cabinet as they are plus there's a couple of things that i'll go into the into my nightmare of what i've been trying to solve in otg with with the cabinet um and why native playing is is better at the moment um here's the interesting that i none of these tables other than brother in arms was one that i really enjoyed playing uh previously um and you know i had no love at all for homeworld no um and none of the kong and godzilla tables i found them really spoke to you either they didn't speak to me and they were really confusing like i didn't know where the ball was going to be coming out uh it was just hard to track uh visually hard to understand with the because most of the inserts didn't have text on them uh like i know on kong and on godzilla they don't have text on kong versus godzilla they have text but there's so many of them um that when you're playing in the landscape mode they just kind of blur and you're you can't really read them so playing in full cabinet on a big tv or you know a big monitor basically i really am enjoying i i actually enjoyed homeworld you did i'm i'm like you know what this isn't half bad that this is i i can groove along to this and then i've been playing the kong and godzilla stuff and where previously i did not enjoy the kong table because i couldn't tell where the hell the ball was rolling now i fully understand where the ball is going i'm actually doing some decent scores um i still hate the fact that it's the same two actors that performed on Alien vs. Predator doing their stupid call-outs that are just... Doing their bit. Oh my god. They're bad call-outs. They're really bad call-outs. They're just terribly written call-outs. But even playing Godzilla, it just makes a lot more sense and I visually can actually read what's going on. So now I'm able to progress a lot farther. so you're saying that when you're playing those particular games on cabinet mode you're not having the problem of the the table being in that sort of isometric view perspective like you'd have on a like wall-mounted tv correct um and therefore because everything is both fully filling the screen everything's a lot closer to you yes so you're having no problem reading text on inserts and stuff like correct and honestly this this is it's interesting to say that because on those tables that's the biggest problem i've had as well because do you you know even if you're playing this game at 2k which is what i'm sort of running it at as a happy medium um even at 2k you can't see any anything at the back of the table yeah right and a lot of those tables the the inserts are directional but they are very small yeah and this is another thing that we we keep on banging on about it's like remember that you're like if cabinet mode is a smaller subset of the market that you're trying to hit here which is console and pc and stuff then you've got to make sure that those inserts are either nice and big and have the information that you need to be able to understand what's going on um or something else that makes them easy to understand and like impossible to miss if you need to shoot them because of the way you're presenting the tables it's just like yeah big big triangles is the reason why that they had them on belly williams because you could not miss them. Yeah. You know, right? Yeah. So anyway, I thought that was an interesting shift in my opinion. I'm glad you're getting into Homeworld. It has things to offer. Yeah. Once you can sort of see what you're shooting at, I still wish they'd stopped that seesaw. Oh, my God. I've tried nudging it to try and make it happen faster. Yeah, I have actually done that in the past. I've sacrificed tilts just to try and get the bloody ball out of there. If they could just put a patch in to knock that up, down, into a thing, please. It's just ridiculous. It is. It's really ridiculous. It stays up there too long. Now, other things that have just come out at games. One, at the end of this month, the Jurassic Park 3-pack is coming out. So that'll be fantastic. um and then playing that on on portrait oh it's so much better yeah i've already done that in using pinball effects in otg yeah it's so much better um but then they've also announced new pricing availability so you can still buy the cabinets the way that they have been um but they're also now offering basically saving you two hundred dollars but here's what you sacrifice you're only able to get either adam's family or attack from mars as your cabinet choice oh okay they'll only come with that one game on them as opposed to the total of 15 that you get if you bought the full price version. Oh. It will not come with the pinball topper, which they'll sell you separately for $150. Now, if you already start doing the math, you're already in the hole. If you wanted all those tables that were, all the Zachariah tables that were included, and you want the pinball topper, you're now officially already in the hole because that's going to cost you over $200. Not to mention now you're going to have to pay separate shipping for all that. They also will have you locked out of being able to use OTG mode. A what? As well as any third-party application. If you want those unlocked, you'll have to pay another $100, and then those would be unlocked. Nah. I understand the thinking being that some people have no intention of ever hooking up a computer to this. So, sure, why not save some money by doing that right there? But it's not even a piece of hardware. It's literally a software thing that you pay your $100 and they go, bink, okay, now you have access. the third party thing is a really interesting one because there is currently only one 30 third party app out and it's not even 100 out but basically they've figured out how to put vpx onto a thumb drive and be able to run it through app games's uh graphic card no way yes and at games is fully on board with this but this little maneuver would block that from being able to happen what are they doing nickel and diming people that's for this and that's what and that's what the community is just going i'm sorry what i mean sure i get look i i'd actually be quite happy to have an option when i'm purchasing purchasing the table to go look i just want the shell yeah i don't want to buy anything from your storefront i just want to be able to otg it so not get rid of the topper don't need that um get rid of the um all the tables on the thing if you want i don't need them and and then just give me the option to connect my computer up to it use it as a shell yep sign me up but of course this is the exact opposite of what they want that's the exact opposite of what they want because they want you to buy games through the store so you can make money because the hardware is a loss leader yeah yeah yeah yeah but again i come back to that being said it's really nice just going native with the tables so here's what i've been running up against here uh there are two ways of using the machine as a controller uh in the otg settings and that is one having it send the information as if it was a keyboard and then the other two is if it sends the information as if it was a gamepad now they both have their pluses and minuses if you send the information as a keyboard you're still able to use the trackball like if you have the arcade controller panel on top like i do you're still able to use the trackball now to move the mouse you can set up your buttons to be you know your right click left click on the mouse so you can navigate your whole pc setup and get into the games that you want to get into well that's cool that's cool right the problem that i've run into is that the plunger is either full pull or no pull there's no in between right because it's like pushing the enter button so it's a solenoid basically yes yes sure if you want to call that solenoid so there goes any chance of doing any of your uh skill shots which i mean skill shots aren't really the end of the world but still it's annoying still it's yeah you should be able to do you should be able to do that yes right if you want to yes correct uh the other asks now interestingly enough the analog nudge so bumping the table works oh now in the descriptor of the keyboard it says that it's bound to keys okay this is where it's interesting if you play the gamepad where it says it's bound to the xy access not the case nudge does not work in gamepad the only way you can make it work is by hitting the button on the side of the cabinet to make it nudge so i think at games has oopsed and reversed some coding there um i have but if you play with gamepad now when i pull the plunger it actually is a plunge pull. Oh, so it's like the only thing you're getting between keyboard and controller is they turned on analog. Right. But here's the problem with using the gamepad. Now you cannot control anything on your PC. So you do have to have, yep, I have a little handheld keyboard controller that's got touchscreen and all that. So I still need to use that to navigate everything to get into it. Also, I should note that when you're using the keyboard and you go to use the D-pad to select tables in Zen, it skips one row and skips over one. So then you're having to still use highlight with a mouse and click the button to do it rather than normal navigation. Whereas the gamepad, it works as it should. So what I'm saying is there's frustrations. It's not 100%. I still have not put in Pinup Popper and done any of that. So all of that might be solved by doing that. But as it is right now, it's an annoyance, and it's one of those things of why I don't turn on OTG. Because it's an extra... Well, here's the one other thing that is annoying that happens. so the video card i have it's got one one display no two display ports and then hdmi it's got actually two hdmi but anyway i'm into at games the cabinet it's got three hdmi ports so i've got converter cables from a from data port to hdmi but because i'm using that one hdmi the monitor always wants to default to the hdmi right right now i'm also my back glass and my dmd i'm setting those up for 1080p as opposed to uh being in 4k or 2k i've actually set the machine to 2k because 4k is hey it's overkill i don't see a difference and it's is going to bog the system down yeah absolutely but as soon as you start zen the monitors freak out a little bit because it's trying to convert and figure out what needs to go where and in that mode it reverts back to basically hdmi first which is not where my audio is coming through so i lose audio so then what i have to do is i have to back out of otg back into the native and then tap the button to go back in now i have my audio back and now i have everything back but it's just like two extra steps i have to do to make it function yeah whereas you just turn the game on and go yeah yeah that's uh yes and you know this is this is kind of the reason why i haven't like the allure of an actual really nice digital pinball table in the garage in place of one of the ones that i've got there at the moment feels feels like a good thing yeah but i'm just these are the stories that made me go you know what i would never touch it i would i would buy a dedicated pc for it and because of those problems i i would just never never touch it well and it's it's those problems that we've said this why i keep on not doing vpx because i know the headache that is involved in it um shoot here's the headache and damn it zen come on um the back glass oh yeah what's going on with that like why why do i have to search for back glass why you have them made up why don't you have the tables in the tables yeah why don't you have those just here download here or better yet why do i have to go through my hole into my steam and find the little mod section to download them into based off of and write the correct table number that's it why don't you just why don't we just download them with them why isn't it just a task Part of cabinet mode. I don't get it. And there's some back glass that I literally cannot find. Cannot find. I have had to basically create my own. Now, there are some people that have put out back glass. And granted, I'm a little bit bougie about some of these where I'm like, that's bad art. I'm not having that up there. um yeah you know we we've had we've had our collection of back glasses which are probably absolutely redundant now oh you are mine all have dmd and speaker grills put onto them so you can't use them uh yeah i'm probably going to upload all the ones that i've collected now that's probably not a bad idea refresh the collection that you have that we have hosted on on the google drive so i mean yeah there's so many different i think probably there's so many different sources of these back glasses now that that collection has been done but just to keep parody it's probably not a bad idea yeah but like there's some really cool ones that that were out there with uh like i think like alien versus predator where they were both battling around a giant pinball and it looked really cool cannot find it i don't know where the heck that one went um there's some that zen have put out they're not in zen they're not in pinball effects are they no because those tables haven't made it there yet which is why they're not there And that back glass was never designed for FX3 by Zen. It was done by somebody else, as far as I know. But then there's others that Zen has basically made available, and I'm like, that's just ugly and lazy, Zen. I don't like it. The one they did for Peanuts, I'm just like, for the Snoopy table, I'm just like, no, I'm not having it. It doesn't look good. And so there's that issue that comes on. The one that was for Civil War, it's just Cap and Iron Man looking at each other, but it's like cel-shaded art, and it's very boring, very flat-looking. So I had to go around and find a better one. I could not for the life of me find a Deep Space Nine or Discovery back glass. I wound up finding one that I really liked, and then I eventually found the official Zen one, and I looked at the official Zen one and went, pfft, looks like crap. No, I'm sticking with the ones that I found. It's like the early Stern Photoshop cut and paste designs that they were doing. Yeah, yeah. And you don't really, like, when you're just looking at a thumbnail, it looks all fine. But when you actually have it up on a 24-inch monitor staring at you, it becomes a whole different ball of wax. Yeah. So, anyway, those are, I know that on one day I literally was spending an hour and a half trying to find just the Star Trek back glass. trying to find something that would work. Anything that would work. Without me having to go in and Photoshop and drop in my own title on top of an image that I found that I liked and all that. I was just looking for somebody else that had already done the work. Because I know people have already done the work, but finding out... There's plenty of people out there that have the design skills to do this really well. There are some people out there that are insanely talented, clearly. Anywho, that's what that one was. yeah i could see your frustration with like the whole i could see why why you want to just play the natively and i also have a better understanding that yeah a physical pinball table to play digital is not what i want um but i'm not playing pinball effects on my pc my office pc anymore that's you know no no i don't i don't like it playing with the controller playing with a controller now that's not no i need i want the buttons i want the flippers even with your pin sim on your computer i mean i could but what's the point i have it out on that one it's kind of pointless yeah right yeah no interesting yeah yeah i do want to still try out uh when gibson pinball comes out with their small laptop controller. Oh, yeah, a little desktop. That, yes, I really, really want to try that out. Yes, that does look really interesting, doesn't it? Oh, and I should also point out, Jared, you'll be happy to hear this. After arranging it and making it the correct size that I liked, Demon's Tilt in cabinet mode is freaking awesome. Yes. And so then I promptly downloaded Xenotilt, and that's freaking awesome. I just wish they would allow you to put a back glass up. Oh, right. Which they don't have. I understand the scoring. That's a whole, it's much too large to fit into the DMD area. I understand. It would look great as the back glass, actually. Yes, it would look fantastic as the back glass. Imagine if you could throw that up as the back glass. That would be the perfect scenario. So I was waiting for Xenotilt to go on some sale, and I wound up picking it up for $10. That's money well spent. It's a great game for that. It really is. I would love to be able to play it in full screen, like 40-inch tape. It would be a very, very different experience to playing it with the multiple screens. Now, granted, I made it so that almost the entire play field is visible. I blew it up as much as I could to fit to the edge without it being turned off that goddamn shake. I'll keep rid of that. Tuned down the strobe effects. Yeah, I've turned off a whole bunch of that stuff. That stuff makes it just painful to play. But once you've got all that done, especially when you're playing in multiball, where you've got one ball way up the top and one ball down at the bottom, it makes it so much that you can actually... Oh, so much easier. Yeah. Because it automatically zooms out when you're playing on a PC screen. Which makes it teeny tiny. Yeah, it's pinball for ants. Pretty much. But it is, like both of them, they've actually, Xenotilt is just about to exit early access. Oh, okay. They put a whole bunch of new game modes into the Xenotilt. So you got like EX mode which adds basically brand new sub sub games and stuff which are really fun to play Um you got a survival mode in there where you got to last for 20 minutes um and you got the only way you can last for 20 minutes is to collect these little time expanders on the play field really challenging i've only been able to get up to i think like four and a half minutes before i died um you've got to be really good to play that mode and the the hardcore mode is they got they basically put lightning flippers in the game oh god and it's just it's a lot of fun one ball um and lightning flippers uh yeah great wow really good brutal but good well hey that uh that brings us into something there obviously yeah so obviously every pinball machine has its own thing its own uh reason why you may or may not like and or love it um or maybe even just plain hate it and go i don't want to even touch that So we're calling this What's Your Favorite Gimmick? Yeah. I've got a whole list of, I'm going to call them very generic gimmicks that you find on virtually any pinball machine. And I want to see if we can discover, myself and Jared, what our taste is in pinball machines. what is it that when we walk up to a machine that makes us immediately go yes as opposed to yeah yeah uh so jared let's start this off i'm gonna allow you to pick one from the following things these are your flippers obviously the main input of two of any pinball machine do you like standard flippers, zipper flippers, two-inch flippers, lightning flippers, a machine that has midfield flippers, or a machine that has, I'm calling them alternate layout flippers. So the flippers might be flipping backwards or you might have four flippers down at the bottom or they might be, you know, like on EMs where they were wildly wide apart from each other with, you know, lanes in the middle. Like scissor flippers and stuff like that. Well, that's what the zippers are, where they were the two-inch, but then they zipped in. No, well, there's zipper and there's scissor. I don't know what scissor flippers are. Think of like Paragon, where both flippers go up at the same time and leave a big gap. I'm just going to say no to that. Yeah, so that's a no from me. I don't like those. Okay, so of those, what do you gravitate towards? Just give me standard. Standard? Mm-hmm. I happen to like a table that does have a set of midfield flippers on it. Okay. Like an upper playfield shot? Not an upper playfield. No, like, think Lawler. Think Whirlwind. It's got a midflipper, so a side angle shot, basically, because of a flipper. Yeah, that's my preference. But you tend to just like something that has two standard flippers down the bottom, three-inch bass. Okay, well, if you're calling midfield flippers, I wasn't quite sure which member midfield. Oh, okay. So, yeah, some upper-like flipper like the Getaway has adds variety in the game plan. Yes, I would probably say that's what midfield is, and yes, I would also prefer midfield as well. All right, next up. Table with ramps. Now, I realize that some people may not like ramps at all. But I'm not going to talk about that. Right. Because there's a number of different types of ramps, or what I consider ramps. It's not just the ramp that goes up, but it's also how the ball travels around once it is up that ramp itself. So I've broken it down to, and we can pick two. Wire form. Yeah. Plastic. Diversion ramps, or diverting ramps. Moving ramps. and ramps that have elaborate sheeps okay I like trying to think of some of the recent games I've played like Infinity Wars which have like a ramp you can shoot from either side that's something that I find really interesting because it opens up your shot possibilities so if that's an elaborate shape ramp then i guess probably elaborate shapes is one okay um for me so elaborate shapes and then i think out of that list i like ramps that put the ball in different places so diverting for me all right yeah yeah um for myself i love wire forms i just find them very pretty they do look nice they look so nice um the more wire form ramps there are the better or pathways i should say at that point um and i like elaborate shapes because if it looks like it's just going in a crazy knot i'm down for that but also and i'm not a fan of plastic ramps just because i kind of find them semi-ugly uh a lot of times but you come across something like Whitewater, and you cannot help but want to send the ball on that ramp. It just, you walk up to Creature, and you're like, I want that ball in the bowl. That's all I want. I want it there. How do I get it there? So those are my line there. Alright, next up, magnets. You're able to pick one of these three. An underplayfield magnet. So think Addams Family, Dracula, one that can move the ball around or throws the ball around. A magnet that just captures the ball. So just keeps it in place. And then drops it. It might just keep it in place or drop it eventually. Yeah, that's questionable what it does. Or a magnet that is used with a toy. That's a tough one because I was going between ball capture and used with toy. but I am thinking of the applications that I've seen where a ball is captured and for me, I can't go past the coolness that is the shadow and how it captures the ball and drops it and flicks it back into the lock like that. So it's a ball capture magnet for me. Ball capture for you. I think I'm going to go with used with a toy. Okay. What's a good example of that for you? A good example would be the T-Rex from Jurassic Park or on Metallica, the hammer. Oh, where it grabs it and slams it into the table? Yeah. Yeah, that's very cool as well. Yeah. Yeah. That being said, ball capture, like the... I'd almost say that the Metallica one is actually a ball capture. The Metallica one might be ball capture. I'm also thinking of in Tales of the Arabian Nights, how the ball captures and then goes and drops below. And just ball capture. That's really cool. So, yeah. But, I don't know. If you call those, those are technically toy-related ones, too. So I can get what you're saying. Yeah. It's a tricky category. It is a tricky category. That's why it's hard. It was really hard for me to go, not sure. That's why I think, as opposed to what I'm thinking of, you know how, what is it on... Like Twilight Zone, where it just holds the ball, then releases it. Holds it. same thing happens on roller games Iron Man is it Iron Man or X-Men that it collects the balls and then flings them eventually oh yeah yeah let's go with Iron Man because I don't consider those toys I consider that just a magnet capturing the ball at some point and then releasing and like Twister for example with its ball capture Twister has like the balls that pop out of Dorothy and then they hit on that magnetic disc and the magnetic disc traps them and they spin around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I'm going to use more with a toy aspect. Okay. I don't like to adjust my answer after it, but disambiguation is actually important. So I think use with toy rather than just like a, like a magnet that just catches the ball then lets it go. Yeah. Use with toy would probably just get over the line for me as well. Okay. It's just over the line for me. Okay. Now, I don't know if I'm using this correctly. I'm calling it sinkholes. Like where the ball goes into the playfield. Into the playfield so that it can then come out again. We're talking about saucers. We're talking about physical, the ball goes below the playfield. I might include saucers in this. So, okay. I categorize it like this. We get to pick one. Subway. So, ball goes in one place, comes out another place. Ejects out, right? Yep. That's number one. Number two, ball ejects. This is where I'm going to go more where it's a saucer goes in a saucer and then plunges. So, it might plunge up into a ramp. It might plunge back down at you. It might just kick out at you. It might kick out at you. and some of your singles, you know, think of Monster Bash, where it goes in and then fires right back out at you, right? Yeah. So that's what I'm calling a ball eject. And then you have your cannons, where... T2 and Star Trek TNG. Even Lice Gamer Action, I think it is, where it goes back and it goes, and fires it right down the middle of the play field. Oh, right. Okay. You know what I mean? So I'm considering that a cannon where it's really firing something out, whether it's at the flippers or at a target that you're helping to aim. But those are what I'm calling my singles. I don't know. It's a weird category. Anyway, you get to pick one of those. Hmm. Well, I do like the element of surprise with subways, but sometimes they do slow down play, depending on how long the ball takes to get down to them. So for me, it's cannons. canons all right i'm gonna go with me i'm gonna go with subways i particularly like the surprise especially where sometimes it always comes out the same way and then all of a sudden you do a certain mode and all of a sudden the lights were over here no one's coming over here you're like well wait what yeah like the best implementation of the subway that i've seen recently is in spooky pinballs um kaiju and halloween tables where it has a rather than having an up kicker it has a silent ball elevator that just sneaks the ball out into the return lane without very much fanfare and so all of a sudden it's like oh there's a ball there how to get there it freaks you out the first time you see it so but yes all right uh next up we're going to talk about I call this display. So how you read your score. So, alphanumeric. Yes, I know that some machines were just numeric. I'm rolling them all into one here. Alphanumerics, DMDs, video screens, whether that be the full giant things that, you know, Jersey Jack is doing today or what Stern is doing or what Zeno is doing, you know. So video screens or reels. video screens for me video for you I honestly I'm going DMD really why DMD for you video screens I find it difficult to find the information that I want quickly I feel like I have to stare at the screen because there's video going on and I'm not necessarily finding the score especially on a Jersey Jack where it's like, what the hell? And where am I looking to find the information I need? You've got like four different screens going on here. That's certainly the case in Jersey Jack. There's a lot of detail going. What you're saying is you prefer something that's glanceable and just gives me the... I like the simplicity of DMD, but I also enjoy the animations that happen on DMD, which is why I favor that over an alphanumeric. um alpha numerics were great but i like that whole era of dmd there was a lot of humor in there with the animations they put in um like them or not some of the video modes were fun nobody's obviously doing video modes anymore uh you know although jaws actually has a video mode and it has a video mode that you can put 3d glasses on for and play it in in like old school 1950s 3D. Jeez Louise. Yeah. They're actually stern branded glasses you can buy if you own one. I think maybe if you buy a game you actually get the glasses with it. Okay. I would hope so. Yeah. Alright. So there we go. That's not to say reels, they sound really nice. Oh, they do. But they are very, they are boring. They're boring. Okay, next up. I'm calling this kinetic. So, and you can pick two. Spinners, ball diverters, captured balls, and jet bumpers. For me, spinners and jet bumpers, please. I agree with the jet bumpers. and you know I do kind of like a good ball diverter so again I'm thinking of on Toten the spinner that's there I know Jurassic Park has something that spins a little bit or whatever oh yeah I kind of I Whirlwind has the spinning discs yeah I'm down with ball diverters ball diverters the thing that changed the path of the ball yeah alright next toys you get to pick one you either like a bash toy a mechanical toy so something that's physically functioning on the table or you can have a thematic but it's static toy I'm going to say what's something that recently that you can do, basically like the Grogu on Mandalorian, it's just there but it's big and it adds a theme element or do you like a table that doesn't have any toys on it at all? I'd say I definitely do like toys I'd say though I prefer something that functionally contributes to the game so I'd have to say mechanical toys for me Okay. I tend to think I like a bash toy. You like to hit something with a ball and interact with it. Yes. Yes. That's a tough one, though, because there are some really cool mechanical things that, like... Mechanical is almost the same for me as the elaborate ramps. Because if you know it does something, you desperately want to hit it to see it function. So you're saying that you'd like to hit Frankenstein more than you'd like to use the mini play field on Indiana Jones? Yes. Really? Yes. Ah, right. Yes. Interesting. Interesting. All right. Lighting. Obviously, there's all sorts of different types of lights that can go on. Do you like the old school glow of incandescence? Oh, and you can pick two on this one. Old School Glow of Incandescence. Do you like elaborate light sequences? So it's not just EM error with them going on and off, but there is actually pattern going on with them. Do you like what I'm calling RGB madness? Like Jersey Jack? Wizard of Oz, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Clown Vomit RGB is what I call it. Do you like flashers and strobes? Hmm. Or do you like a table, and this is obviously part of the art package, but the lights play a part of this, that makes everything UV glow? That's a really tough one because I'm a very, very big fan. I'm a very, very big fan of Stranger Things and how it has a UV code on the play field. That is just very cool. And Big Bang Bar looks fantastic in that. even if you put things like Attack from Mars with some UV light sources in it, it looks amazing as well but for me it's elaborate lighting sequences and flashes and strobes please. That's exactly what I have and I'm okay to lump in high intensity LED light sequences into that flashes and strobes thing because the modern games now i'm actually seeing less and less flashes used and more and more high intensity leds okay to replace the flashes because they're just as vibrant now so yeah um but yes i i like an elaborate light sequence because that also tends to help guide you where your balls yeah exactly it's like shoot this thing you can't miss it yeah yeah um all right let's move over into rules. I'm going to let this one because there's so many combinations I'm going to say pick two or three that map into this. Do you like a table that is simple to play? Has deep branching paths? Is mode based but linear? Has stackable modes? Is just basically combo heaven? Is Spell-O-Rama. I know you don't like that, Jared, but it has to be in there anyway. Spell-O-Rama, or one that has lots and lots of mini-games, so-called side quests and just little tasks to accomplish. I always like the, I guess, the walk-up and play factor of mode-based linear, where you have a clear place that you need to shoot and then you go through the modes and you get to a wizard mode at the end. That is good. I like, though, with the mode-based linear, having modes that you can stack is quite fun. And I'm thinking in modes here, I'm lumping multiball into modes as well. I'm thinking Dracula's triple stack madness that you can get with its three multi-balls going at once. That's amazing. And Combo Heaven. I wanted to shoot flow. I want combos to be going off and have that feeling of flow and be driven towards shot making that keeps that flow going. So yeah, those are the three. All right, so mode, stackable, and combo for you. Yep. All right, for me, it's simple to play, mode-based linear, and stackable. I want to be able to walk up to a table and just start playing it and have immediate fun. I like a mode hole knowing how to start something and I don't care if it means it's linear in action again this is where I'm thinking with Indiana Jones well I'm thinking Whirlwind it's not that it has modes per se but it does have those boxes that hey right now you're playing in this right it's simple same as Funhaus it's linear but I love Monster Bash stackable modes in that is really fun. I'm not usually a fan of stackable modes because sometimes too much can be going on. But I think that's the deep branching path thing that I don't like. Yeah, this is what really turns me off with the modern Sterns. You really have to whenever Stern puts out a patch note, if you want to be good at the game, you have to read them So you can understand what to do in the game. It really turns me off because I'm old, and I don't like to think when I'm playing pinball. All right, let's go on to what kind of sounds do you like coming out of your machine? Do you like just bells and chimes? Do you like that MIDI-quality audio, or do you like full-on high-fidelity surround? It's like a movie theater. uh give me high fidelity now because you know we have it available uh i'm midi quality really i love the lo-fi sound of things there's again the simplicity of the music um you had to actually be good with uh programming music to be interesting without just being able to be like oh yeah i'm just gonna put a full-blown song that's already created in there yeah done that to me i don't know there was a certain uh certain appeal to that handcrafted quality but there there absolutely a a quality to the um you know the Yamaha FM chip sound that you get with that MIDI output They really did some amazing things with that. But when you walk up to a Foo Fighters machine and you pick Monkey Wrench and that's your soundtrack while you're playing the game, it gets you hype, man. It's good. It's really good. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. um i shoot part of this bias might be because also i've not really played a lot of machines that are of the high quality sound um it's those have all escaped me so anyway yeah uh let's go on to what i'm calling tactile or other um these are things that you are feeling or seeing on the table itself uh so toppers i know some people love an elaborate interactive topper um having a machine that has a shaker motor in it so that it's really just tossing that machine around um something that has a unique ball launcher not just a standard plunger so you know demolition man with those triggers up on the well that's actually flippers that are on the top but you know the pistol Yeah, also on full treatments. Yeah, you know, pistol grips. Shoot, maybe you just like pushing a button, the gear shift on Getaway. That kind of thing, right? Something that has computer-controlled flipper gags. Like reverse flippers and stuff. Reverse flippers and stuff. I know they're starting to make more appearances in real machines, but obviously Zen has been doing this on quite a few of their machines. or their tables, so that, and then something that does what I'm calling lighting blackouts. So any time that it's darkening the table to make the ball obscure to see. Yes, I'm going to include Tommy with the blinder in this. Oh, yeah. But anything that makes it hard to see the ball and flip it. So for these, you get to pick two that are of your favor. Interesting category, this one. I'd say for me, one that I don't have to think about very much is Shaker Motors. Incorporated well into the theme, Shaker Motors really make a difference to the tactile nature of the game. I think the other one for me, I detest flipper gags. I hate them. I end up just monkey flipping and feeling like I'm just playing pinball for the first time ever. I hate them. but I think probably a unique ball launcher that's integrated well into the game is great for me, like your examples of the getaway with the gear shifter that you have to actually use in the game to play that's really good, that's a really nice tactile inclusion that matters in the game, so yeah that's my pick there I'm going with, I agree with the shaker motor there's something about having the whole machine just rumble, that is very cool um yeah i don't think it's any surprise here lighting blackouts for me i love oh yes i love where it goes with that um yeah lighting blackouts with the strobe oh yes oh yes like or with oh yes or neon multiball and circus voltaire oh yeah a hundred percent yeah but just turning off the lights for no reason no no there's a yeah in um judge dread where they do blackout 2x blackout mode where they cut the the gi that's a nothing mode for me yeah but like a like you say yeah a lighting blackout with a purpose to it yeah that's that is a hard one not to like but i i just it just unique ball launchers trumped it for me yeah um okay i'm i call this play field you get to pick one of these do you like a standard size pin a super size or not a super pin width or yep w-i-d-e wide pin obviously you with a system 80 those are wide square pins so yeah what is your what is your choice what do you prefer oh this is tough i think while i do have a fair few wide tables in my collection like all the system 80s are almost really they're super pin size tables really uh they're super pin wide really i think for the the got lead system 80s they're not they're not like uh future spa wide no okay no they're not future style or paragon wide or paragon wide yeah that is that is the era of star race for me okay and paragon and future spa yeah um i those have a place but i think really super pin for me okay um because you just get a little bit of real estate you can do really cool things with like you the scale the toys get bigger the life under glass can be more better realized with a wider form factor it's just a shame to see stern not doing those anymore like they're they're really fun like spooky did scooby-doo recently and it was its first their first wide body machine and it's just amazing the amount of stuff they were able to jam into that machine um whether it was well implemented is up to the individual but the fact that they were able to do all that stuff in it makes it super pin for me what about you uh i am standard width standard that's what my preference is i like the speed of a standard width i like the um again i think this falls back into the simplicity of play uh when you start going with a even even the super pin wide you're adding an extra lane into usually two extra lanes into uh your return lanes um the now you have an outer orbit and maybe an inner orbit uh there's there's suddenly a myriad of paths which can be good but i also think uh aiming on them is a lot more difficult i like the the economy that has to be used with a standard width those square wide bodies i don't like at all they're too slow um paragon like i've been playing paragon a fair bit and it is It's fun once you get your eye in, but Future Spar is not my favorite game. It's surprisingly the same width as Paragon, but it's got a very different feel to it. I just don't really like it. It's quite clunky, very wide, floaty, not that good. No, no. All right, next up we have Layout. Layout. Layout, okay, so you get to pick two. And the reason why I'm speaking to you is because they're kind of... I don't know that I've necessarily got everything here, even close. You got your fan layout. Just think medieval madness. It's just a fan of lanes. You got your asymmetrical layouts. Like Twilight Zone. Twilight Zone is an asymmetrical, for sure. A lot of your EMs are asymmetrical with how they went. Games that have an upper and lower play field. Now, this could be whether you want to think like Haunted House with it being a sub play field, or if you want to think about upper playfields like Black Knight where there's an upper play field there. Mini play field, anything of that upper, lower kind of play field. and then we have do you like a flow table uh or do you like a table that is stop and go where you actually have to catch that ball and aim that ball um or do you like a table that has a lot of side action um so there's a lot of tables where you need that mid flipper to hit something that's directly going to the side of the machine either or um i already know your picks here I don't even need you to tell me. So for me, fan and upper and lower play field. Okay. What do you think mine are? The reason why I went fan is because fan implies flow. So for you, flow and side action are your picks. No. Really? Did I get one of them right? Nope. Oh, okay. I went fan and stop and go. Really? Yeah. Fan and stop and go. So, fan, I can't deny that I love. Because I really love medieval madness. I really love Monster Bash. Stop and go, that basically describes any Pat Lawler table. Oh, right, okay. So it goes to the source, it kicks it out, you do a shot. Yeah. I'm not the biggest fan. When I think flow, I think Steve Ritchie. And my mind immediately goes to something like No Fear, where it's just lane after lane after lane that you're shooting, and I find that really boring. I also get a little stressed out over... That's why I didn't pick Combo Heaven. Because it's just your quick timing and doing live shots over and over again. I like to capture my ball and kind of aim. You can do that on a flow table as well. You can do any of these things on a lot of these tables, but when I walk up to a table, what's going to grab me? Am I going to be like, oh, that's interesting, or not, this is what's going to grab me. Okay, we've got two more categories to go here. So this next one is targets. Pick one. Do you like drop targets? Do you like stand-up targets? Or do you like a play field that doesn't even bother with targets? How would you have a play field that doesn't bother with targets? Again, no fear, does not have targets. Oh, that's true. It's all ramps, isn't it? It's all ramps and lanes. And there's a lot of tables that are that way. They don't have stand-up targets. They don't have drop targets. There's things that they'll score by hitting, but that's not really the point. It's not a bank of them or anything else like that. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. So for me, and my collection speaks to this, drops all day, every day. Drop targets for the win. I'm going to go drops too. They're too much fun. Even if you only have three drop targets on there. It's still something. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last category, which is, you know, if we started with the flippers, we're going to end with how you drain the ball. Makes sense. And how you might save that ball from draining. So I'm calling this the straight down the middle category. Do you like a table that has, and you get to pick one, a center post that has kickbacks, that has lane save, or lane save. So when I say lane save, there's either a flipper to save it, And honestly, I'm thinking some of the Zacharias do this, but also Super League Soccer does this. Oh, with the actual flipper to launch it. But also lane save could be Centaur, where you do a nudge to bump it back into play. Isn't Foo Fighter... They've got the overdrive post-in that kicks it back in. Right, yeah. So anyway, I'm saying that's a lane save. Ball saver, which is just plain light the ball saver, and if you drain, boom, you get another ball. or Magna Save? Look, for me, I always think outlanes are brutal. So for me, it's lane saves. And that's what I'm going with too. Yep. Because that's, you know, you can mostly affect the travel of play with flippers. Yeah. But honestly, lane slaves are lane slaves. Lane slaves. Lane slaves. Touch and go. So, you know, sometimes physics will go your way, even if you try and tilt the best you can. Sometimes it just will not. So having a lane save there is really handy. Yeah. Center posts, in one hand, they kind of feel like cheating to me, and in the other hand, I get mad when I forget that there's a center post there to begin with. And rather than just doing nothing with my flipper and letting the ball bounce on it, I still flip and then I drain anyway because now I've diverted it wrong. Yeah. So center posts just tend to make me angry. Center posts were making me angry just last night when I was playing Whirlwind on Zen Pinball. Oh, man. It was just brutal last night. Not to mention that center posts, well, of that nature of center posts, that was up to the operator if they even put them in. Correct. But then you get center posts like Space Shuttle. On big guns. big guns uh champion champ hub yeah yeah uh harley david um and then as for kickbacks are fine but you gotta light them yeah you know on the subject of kickbacks this is an aside but i actually found an em that had a kickback really the other day yeah wow uh it was at at b-pack and it was an actual kickback on em i was blown away that this happened 1971 this table was okay i had a kickback wild i couldn't believe it and then magna save i just tend to forget to even activate oh that that's like they may as well not exist may not exist yeah yeah that's it's one of the things that i love that zen has done where on some of their tables it says magna save is but it doesn't even make you activate it if your ball drains it just does it for you and kicks it back out and i'm like thank you yeah that's exactly right like that that again is a is a play on lane saves really yes it is like the one of my favorite lane saves i think is the um the cage that comes up on um the Tales of the Arabian Nights. Oh, yeah. Where it's literally a cage that captures a ball before it drains. Yeah. And even on Theater of Magic, how it has a magnet underneath there that will grab the ball and come draining. Like, that's late-stage heaven for me. Like, that sort of stuff. Yeah. Great. Really great. All right. So if this was, you know, a BuzzFeed quiz, it would have told us exactly what pin we should be playing, but I wasn't going to sit here and categorize hundreds of pinball machines so that it would do that for me. No. But if anybody out there wants to, link it, tell us, and we will promote that so that people can go play that kind of a quiz. Yeah, that's right. It was fun. That was a fun exploration that made you think about the things that matter to you in pinball. It really does. Yeah, it was good. Because I think we always make snap judgments as soon as we see something and go, oh yeah, that's something I'm going to like, or no, I'm not going to really like that. It's why I don't like Zoltan's tables. Yes. It's why I tend to not like most of the Jersey Jack tables. Because I feel like their focus is on the wrong things. But, I don't know. Anywho. all right well that was fun uh hopefully you all enjoyed uh going through that um and maybe tell us in the comments what kind of uh if you took this quiz what it is you'd pick and if you played along at home um what's your picks yeah um yeah it'd be interesting to see that being said we're going to call it quits for right now hopefully we won't be so long getting back into our next episode. But I just know work schedules of mine. I think I'm working the next two weekends. I don't know. Anyway, because there's stuff going on at Disney, the big convention that I'm working. So, but yeah, we'll be back for more. If there's topics you guys would love to hear us talk about, please chime in. Let us know what you want to have more of. I'm thinking of doing some reviews on all of these tables that have come out with games from Zen, specifically under the guise of how is it playing in cabinet mode? Does that make it worth purchasing? So that might come out on a separate video, and I'd probably do it by pack. That's, again, if I have time to do it. Yeah, that's if I have time to do it, because... It's going to be well-received on the channel. People like to watch the side-by-side comparisons. So, yeah. And good news on my front, too. Very, very close, folks, to getting Fiber to the Premises internet. Yay! So, I'm going to be ramping up the streaming again once I have reasonable internet that will upload not at a snail's pace. So yeah, I'll be doing more streaming. Probably not as much as I was doing before, but still some. So yeah. I do got a wonder, just based off of movie box office, how is Zen is feeling about not being able to release Deadpool on ad games right now? Yeah, probably not happy. And more to the point, do you think that now that possibly will be a cabinet offering through AtGames? Because I imagine a lot of people wouldn't. I think they'd probably like a bit of Deadpool. Yeah. I mean, this is a very interesting comparison between what Stern did and what Zen did in their game. Interestingly, they both used the exact same voice actor. yes because there is one really good voice actor out there that does deadpool um and yeah he's really great so it's something north right um yeah something like that i forget what his first name is but he's got it down pat um yeah i was thinking about that i was like boy with all the money that would have been a perfectly timed release and people would be like yay um i think that um uh stern did a code update recently to deadpool and i i don't know the particulars of it i really would have hoped if there was a deadpool and wolverine battle mode something like that you know something just sneaky that they threw in that would be smart because they have the ability to do it yeah you know they have a platform right a deadpool platform they'd be mad not to just make updates to things you know yep so it'll be interesting because there's still no word on when star wars or marvel is going to come to uh to add games but i mean it's gonna happen it's just a question of when when yeah you know so meanwhile i'm still just crossing my fingers as to when the hell are we going to get our aliens pinball uh oh yeah in fx pinball effects because i know that it seems to be taking so long i really hope they do it what who owns that now it's disney the the the issue is that uh what was it two years ago so this is post-merger disney laid off 7 000 employees the entire fox licensing division was one of those that got laid off no right okay so there ain't nobody to send contracts to no you would think that it's been corrected since then oh i'd say someone else has picked up the licensing you would hope you would hope but um again i'm like oh alien rhyme list comes out in two weeks, it would have been so great to have that drop in pinball effects. When I fire up OTG, that's the one I'm playing. That's what you're playing. On pinball effects. That's what it is. It's a good collection, that one. Except for that Predator vs. Aliens one, which is not part... which can just be forgotten about. The Alien vs. Predator with the bad voice actors one. Again, the table, the game itself is fun. The call-outs are atrocious. Not fun. No, they're just so bad. I should put up a comparison between that and Kong. And be like, here, everybody, listen to how about it. Because I almost even think the music sounds the same. Yeah. Some of these releases do have very nondescript music in them. all right until uh that's that's all we got for you this has been look we were making up for lost time here yeah we did go long today but yeah you all understand um so that's all what we got for you this time uh hey say hello to us right we're on the uh the twitters and we're uh we got the email which nobody emails us so that's okay but you can leave us plenty of comments in the youtube because we always do comment on all that uh but that's what this week is all about next week jared stuff and things sure why not we'll do that all right until then bye bye see you later everyone _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 7f326ed4-c04b-48fc-939d-9a910c8518f2*