# Ep 44: deeproot Discussion with Dennis and Zach **Source:** LoserKid Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2020-09-22 **Duration:** 102m 53s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/ief9MhRr --- ## Analysis In episode 44 of the LoserKid Pinball Podcast, hosts Josh Roop and Scott Larson discuss Deep Root Pinball's failed September 21, 2024 reveal event with guests Dennis Kriesel and Zach Minney. Despite inviting six prominent pinball media figures, Deep Root announced only a postponement statement citing technical issues and feedback, revealing nothing about their flagship game Raza. The hosts and guests express deep frustration over repeated delays (originally promised in March 2019, then 2020, now indefinitely postponed), questioning whether the company is legitimate and whether Robert Mueller's arrogant public statements can ever be backed up. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Deep Root Pinball was supposed to reveal Raza at TPF (Pinball Expo) in March 2019, then March 2020 due to COVID, and finally September 21, 2024 — _Josh Roop, LoserKid Pinball Podcast, discussing timeline of broken promises_ - [HIGH] Six pinball media personalities attended the event (identified as Lauren, Kerry, Colin, Jeff, Chris, and Crystal) under NDA — _Deep Root Pinball's official statement read on the podcast_ - [HIGH] Raza images leaked after the event, causing loss of narrative control for Deep Root — _Dennis Kriesel discussing six major failures of the event_ - [MEDIUM] The prototype shown at Straight Down the Middle featured a steep right ramp shot that was notoriously difficult to make — _Dennis Kriesel discussing leg pitch issues visible in leaked photos_ - [HIGH] Deep Root Pinball has not taken any money from customers yet — _Josh Roop stating company hasn't taken pre-orders or funding_ - [HIGH] The prototype was first shown in November 2019 on This Week in Pinball with Jeff Teolis — _Josh Roop citing specific date and source_ - [HIGH] John Papadiuk (Papa Duke) was hired by Deep Root, contributing to community anger over vaporware association — _Dennis Kriesel explaining major source of community hostility_ - [MEDIUM] Steve Bowden is mentioned as a competitive player who should have caught technical issues if they existed internally — _Dennis Kriesel questioning competency of internal team_ ### Notable Quotes > "I fell for the football one more time and yet again Lucy pulled the football away from my foot... it is just sad. It's sad that it's just it's pathetic. It's hard to even make fun of them because it is beyond ridiculous at this point." > — **Josh Roop**, Early in discussion > _Sets emotional tone of extreme frustration with Deep Root's repeated failures_ > "There's zero chance he is never going to make an American Pinball machine. Mark my words. He is never making an American Pinball machine. Like this guy is it's vaporware 2.0 and this is crazy." > — **Scott Larson**, Mid-discussion > _Strongest statement of complete loss of faith in Deep Root's viability_ > "What's wrong with your machine if that's the case and why did your own team either not have the capability to identify it or it's too intimidated to speak the truth?" > — **Dennis Kriesel**, Mid-discussion > _Articulates the logical inconsistency in Deep Root's explanation_ > "This is the worst. Like seriously I bet Teal is rolling over in his Canadian grave right now." > — **Scott Larson**, Mid-discussion > _Reference to John Teal's death, expressing how badly things have deteriorated_ > "I don't care what Robert's saying anymore. I'm not really angry at the company because I haven't lost a dime on this but at some point this guy's a clown. There's nothing that he's actually doing to make other than standing up and making these big statements that he has never, he's never made good on." > — **Scott Larson**, Late discussion > _Summarizes frustration with gap between rhetoric and execution_ > "I have zero confidence. Like none. I'm serious. This is ridiculous." > — **Scott Larson**, Final discussion > _Final statement on confidence in Deep Root's ability to deliver_ > "Nobody cares anymore. No one's ever going to buy this game." > — **Josh Roop**, Late discussion > _Expresses belief that market damage is permanent_ > "You are what your record says you are and they are what their record says they are." > — **Dennis Kriesel (quoting Bill Parcells)**, Mid-discussion > _Applies sports wisdom to Deep Root's actual track record of non-delivery_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Deep Root Pinball | company | Boutique pinball manufacturer that repeatedly missed reveal deadlines for their flagship game Raza; founded by Robert Mueller; known for ambitious announcements but chronic delays and vaporware status | | Robert Mueller | person | Founder and owner of Deep Root Pinball; primary decision-maker whose arrogant public statements and company's repeated failures drive community skepticism | | Josh Roop | person | Co-host of LoserKid Pinball Podcast; expresses deep frustration with Deep Root's delays and questions the company's legitimacy | | Scott Larson | person | Co-host of LoserKid Pinball Podcast; most vocally critical of Deep Root, using strong language ('clown,' 'vaporware 2.0') and expressing zero confidence | | Dennis Kriesel | person | Co-host of The Pinball Show and guest on this episode; provides industry analysis and logical critique of Deep Root's explanations | | Zach Minney | person | Owner of Flippin' Out Pinball; guest on episode alongside Dennis Kriesel; moderates between extreme skepticism and willingness to reserve judgment | | Raza | game | Deep Root Pinball's flagship game, originally slated for reveal in March 2019, then 2020, then September 2024; postponed indefinitely after failed media event | | John Papadiuk | person | Known as Papa Duke; pinball designer hired by Deep Root; brought history of failed American Pinball vaporware, fueling community distrust | | Chris Chandler | person | Pinball Network correspondent who attended the Deep Root event under NDA; unable to share details about what he witnessed | | Crystal | person | One of six media attendees at Deep Root event; under NDA but expressed confidence in the product once ready | | Colin | person | One of six pinball media figures who attended Deep Root event under NDA; identified in official statement | | Lauren | person | One of six pinball media figures who attended Deep Root event under NDA; identified in official statement | | Kerry | person | One of six pinball media figures who attended Deep Root event under NDA; identified in official statement | | Jeff Teolis | person | Covered Deep Root's Raza prototype on This Week in Pinball on November 12-14, 2019; first public viewing of the game | | Steve Bowden | person | Competitive pinball player mentioned as someone who should have detected technical issues in Deep Root's machine | | Barry Osler | person | Industry veteran with 20-30 years of pinball experience; worked with Deep Root; should have caught critical issues | | Dennis Nordman | person | Industry veteran no longer with Deep Root; mentioned as someone who should have identified critical issues | | Jon Norris | person | Industry veteran who worked with Deep Root; should have caught technical issues if present | | American Pinball | company | Previous company John Papadiuk worked for; failed to deliver vaporware games, creating precedent for distrust | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Competitor mentioned as setting October reveal date post-Avengers from Stern; implied contrast in execution capability | | Stern Pinball | company | Major manufacturer mentioned as producing multiple games since Deep Root's first prototype in 2019 | | Spooky Pinball | company | Early startup manufacturer mentioned as facing similar startup confidence concerns when they launched | | LoserKid Pinball Podcast | organization | Twippies-nominated podcast where this discussion takes place; hosts express industry-wide sentiment | | This Week in Pinball | organization | Podcast that first showed Deep Root's prototype in November 2019; source of initial game footage | | Flippin' Out Pinball | company | Company owned by Zach Minney; sponsor of the podcast episode; represents location/operator perspective | ### Topics - **Primary:** Deep Root Pinball's failed September 2024 reveal event, Vaporware status and credibility destruction in pinball industry, Community sentiment shift toward Deep Root from skepticism to dismissal, Repeated missed deadlines (2019, 2020, 2024) and timeline slippage - **Secondary:** John Papadiuk's involvement with Deep Root and vaporware history, Technical issues with Raza prototype (ramp shot difficulty, pitch problems), NDA constraints on media attendees and narrative control loss via leaks, Startup manufacturer credibility and customer confidence concerns ### Sentiment **Negative** (0.15) — Hosts and guests express overwhelming frustration, skepticism, and disappointment with Deep Root Pinball. Scott Larson is particularly harsh, using language like 'clown,' 'vaporware 2.0,' and 'zero confidence.' Dennis Kriesel provides more measured criticism but still concludes Deep Root has destroyed credibility. Only brief moments of restraint (Zach Minney's willingness to reserve judgment, consideration that media were put in difficult position). Overall sentiment is one of exhaustion with repeated failures and loss of faith in the company's viability. ### Signals - **[announcement]** Deep Root Pinball announced postponement of their September 21, 2024 reveal via written statement after inviting six media personalities, citing technical issues and feedback requiring delay (confidence: high) — Official statement read in full on podcast dated September 21, 2024 - **[leak_detection]** Raza prototype images leaked after failed reveal event, showing backbox differences and ICE front legs with extended levelers suggesting game pitch issues (confidence: high) — Dennis Kriesel discusses leaked photos showing leg pitch details not officially released by Deep Root - **[sentiment_shift]** Community sentiment has shifted from hopeful skepticism to dismissal of Deep Root as vaporware incapable of delivery; hosts predict zero market viability (confidence: high) — Scott Larson: 'Nobody cares anymore. No one's ever going to buy this game.' Josh: 'I don't feel like they're a legitimate company yet' - **[timeline_slippage]** Deep Root has now missed three consecutive reveal deadlines: March 2019 (TPF), March 2020 (COVID delay), September 2024 (postponed indefinitely) (confidence: high) — Josh Roop timeline: 'That's March 2019... March 2020... September 21st, 2024, and we still aren't allowed to officially see anything' - **[industry_signal]** Startup pinball manufacturers face inherent credibility gaps with operators/collectors; repeated deadline misses significantly exacerbate this, making post-launch support confidence critical (confidence: medium) — Dennis discusses operator who wouldn't buy American Pinball despite liking their game, citing support concerns; same applied to early Spooky - **[product_concern]** Leaked photos suggest persistent technical issues with Raza's right ramp shot and playfield pitch that may not have been resolved since 2019 prototype (confidence: medium) — Dennis Kriesel analyzes ICE leg pitch in leaked photo: 'makes me suspect that it wasn't solved' regarding ramp makeability issues - **[business_signal]** Deep Root lost control of their own announcement narrative when Raza images leaked before official statement, preventing coordinated media rollout (confidence: high) — Dennis: 'they're losing narrative control over some of the innovations because now we're looking and analyzing these photos' - **[personnel_signal]** Deep Root assembled team of industry veterans (Barry Osler, Dennis Nordman, Jon Norris, John Papadiuk) but team either lacked authority to stop flawed reveals or failed to identify critical issues (confidence: high) — Dennis Kriesel questions why veterans couldn't catch issues: 'you've got people who've made pinball machines for 20-30 years and we've seen the pictures' - **[content_signal]** Six media personalities bound by NDAs preventing them from sharing details about event; creates difficult position for content creators and limits community information flow (confidence: high) — Chris Chandler and Crystal both confirmed unable to speak despite attending; NDAs likely extend beyond current discussion - **[rumor_hype]** Hosts speculate whether leadership knew about problems pre-event or if internal culture prevents feedback; suggest either incompetence or lack of psychological safety (confidence: medium) — Dennis: 'What sort of situation do you have going on at your company... either you're saying... none of them caught what this issue was? Or... someone's making these decisions and doesn't listen to feedback' - **[market_signal]** Original FOMO-driven hype around Deep Root's ambitious promises has been entirely exhausted by repeated delays; community now views announcement itself as negative signal (confidence: high) — Josh: 'I was hoping I was hoping for something. This is the worst.' Sentiment has flipped from anticipation to dread --- ## Transcript Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are on episode 44. My awesome co-captain as always, Scott Larson. And today on your Twippy-nominated podcast, we're going to hurry and give you our friends of the podcast, which are, Scott? First is This Week in Pinball. Check out This Week in Pinball and find out all the happenings in pinball. We have a slight thing to talk about today. Also, lit frames. Hit up lit frames if you want that nice way of illuminating your trans light that you picked up. Also, Flyland Design. If you want to pick up some alternative art for your Bally Williams, has one for Monster Bash, has one for Medieval Madness that I have in my machine, and also one for Monster Bash. Also, check out my good friend, Timothy Purcell, at thepinballloft.com. It's a blog, and it's just great stuff to check out. also check out also just FYI we have the Infinity Gauntlet if you want to buy it on Kindle you can actually buy it for $3.99 on Amazon right now so if you want to catch up on the entire Infinity Gauntlet that's just the tip of the week also last and certainly not least we have Flip N Out Pinball if you're looking for a place to pick up a pinball machine or any sort of swag for your pinball needs please contact Zach and Nicole at Flip N Out Pinball. And ironically, who do we have with us today, Josh? They have become the dynamic duo now. We've got, in my opinion, Batman, which is Dennis Creasel, and his young boy Ward, Robin, a.k.a. Zach Minney. How you doing, guys? What's going on, Scott, Josh? There it is. yeah thanks for having us on i i was looking forward to doing an episode without zach but apparently that does not get to happen apparently your package deal that's what we were that's what you're telling us so even dennis would say he's the robin to my batman right then i don't i don't usually like to do the batman robin comparison but yeah classifying zach as a sidekick is a little odd when you're talking about the pinball show but it is true but i but if you look at Batman, he's kind of the more stern, the brooding, the – and then you see the young war that's always in flamboyant colors, always bravado and all that jazz. And so I think it fits very well. I mean I see where you're coming from like in terms of personality. Absolutely. Okay. Well, it's certainly better than the alternative, which I thought he was going to go with Ace and Gary from Saturday Night Live. I just want to hear Dennis Creasel saying a gruffly voice, I'm Batman. so guys um anything interesting happened today in pinball like maybe a major announcement or like something that's been building up for about four years and finally we get to see what they have oh you sound excited wow this must be a big day for you it was huge i i i was so built up for this day and i mean this is uh i i am charlie brown with lucy there is uh i fell for the football one more time and yet again Lucy pulled the pinball or excuse me the pinball the uh the football away from my foot like seriously Deep Root has tried to launch this mega thing and at this point it is just sad it's sad that it's just it's pathetic it's hard to even make fun of them because it is It's beyond ridiculous at this point. Yeah, I mean, what can I say? That was the buildup that we were expecting, especially given that Jersey Jack has indicated that the reveal is now in October. So post-Avengers from Stern, this is the Deep Root Pinball launch, was what everyone was anticipating. I covered what I was thinking was going to happen with the reveal and what surely wouldn't happen with the reveal. yesterday on Eclectic Gamers podcast, and then Zach and I on today's podcast had talked about, again, recorded before the reveal time was set to be hit, what we thought would be what you would see, what you wouldn't see, what needed to be seen. And I was really, really, really wrong. I was insistent. There was absolutely no way, given they brought in a half dozen members of the pinball media, however you wish to define it, that they had to show something. They had to reveal something. The people are there. You already have the people. They revealed a statement. Yeah. What is the – can someone read the statement? Yeah, I've got it right here. Let me whip this out for you. Excellent. Just as you would say on Blazing Saddles, right? Yeah. Excuse me while I whip this out. Yeah. All right. September 21st, 2020. I don't know how Robert Mueller sounds, so I'm not going to try to do his voice. So this is all me. Deep Root Pinball has spent years redesigning the pinball machine from the ground up with countless novel approaches. On this past Saturday, we had hoped to host a launch event with six well-known pinball personalities. Due to technical issues and lots of feedback from our guests, it ended up being more of a beta event. We are grateful and thankful to Lauren, Kerry, Colin, Jeff, Chris, and Crystal for their invaluable feedback and involvement in refining our platform to the best it can be. The result is the realization that we are not as ready for launch as we had hoped. We are already working hard to fix the technical issues and implement our guests' feedback. So the only right decision today is to postpone the public release of our platform and our very first game, Raza. We hope that you agree that this releasing a well-engineered and fun-to-play Raza is in everyone's best interest. We hope to update you during the process. We remain deeply committed to delivering the highest quality of gameplay and innovation to our players. We thank you for your continued trust and patience. The team at Deep Root. Now, one of those six was the Pinball Network's correspondent for Deep Root. Zach, I don't know if you've heard from him yet, and I'm not sure you can because I bet there were some NDAs involved. Yeah, Chandler reached out. Chris Chandler, TPN correspondent, reached out. He covers Deep Root for us, and he simply said that he's not allowed to say anything because of the ongoing NDA. I don't know what the specifications were, details regarding that NDA were or are, so I don't know the time constraints that it imposes, but he can't say anything. I also reached out to friend of the show and TPN podcaster, Crystal. Yeah, she said that she can't say anything either, but they are confident in what they are producing. And once it is ready, she said that people will be really happy about it. So that's basically nothing. We got nothing. OK, well, allow me. I suppose, to retort from that perspective as much as one can, since there wasn't a lot of detail, obviously, in it and say, this looks like an unmitigated disaster. This is a disaster. This is exactly the worst case scenario that in my mind I outlined less than 24 hours ago, which was to not reveal anything. Guys, they picked this date. They picked it. Yeah, no one forced them to do it. And this is the third time they were supposed to reveal. Remember, Five Days of Deep was supposed to culminate originally at TPF, which was in 2019. That's March 2019. And then they were supposed to reveal the finalized Raza as of TPF this year, March 2020. That's pushed off because of COVID. So in theory, the game should have been ready, right? But here we are now, September 21st, 2020. and we still aren't allowed to officially see anything about and based off of everything I've heard including in this statement it was still only going to be Raza they talk about their first game Raza and the platform as a whole not any other game reveals which was not worst case to only do Raza but I definitely think that you weren't going to get a lot of hype with just Raza anyway but to have to pull the plug not even pull the plug before you brought in the media folk but to pull the plug after you brought them in. That's the point, though. Do you think, Dennis, Scott, Josh, do you guys think that they knew about this prior to the media? It sounded in that statement as if the media, the well-known media, six members, were the ones that told them, you guys are not ready. Is this a passing the buck thing? That's what confused me. That's the thing, though, looking at the statement, just like you said. And we thank our guests for coming and for pointing these things out. I'm so confused on if we were ready in March, six months later, it should be games are on production line. That's just me personally. If you were ready in March, you're beyond ready now, regardless of what COVID did to you. And then the fact to say that six personalities came out and looked at your machines and made suggestions on improvements on how to make everything better. maybe I just don't know you've got industry veterans there you've got well Dennis Nordman's no longer with them but you got Barry Osler you've got John Papadiuk you've got people who've made pinball machines for 20-30 years and we've seen the pictures the pictures are all over the the interwebs now which if if that was NDA that got out pretty quickly and so I just I don't fully understand how your guests picked up on something so detrimental to your pinball machine that you had to postpone for an indefinite amount of time well can we not agree that's logically that's just not the case there's no chance there's there's zero chance he knew it wasn't ready this is him actually just being a clown like i'm gonna go full nick lane on this this guy is a clown there's zero a chance that he can do this he is never going to make a pinball machine mark my words he is never making a pinball machine like this guy is it's vidware 2.0 and this is crazy this guy is such a narcissistic delusional like member of society that he he is all he has is empty promises to back up he has a box of lights and a game that doesn't shoot very well even though it was a soft release to say, oh, we're not here to talk about the machine. But all he's done is he's had so many amazing promises and every single time there's some reason why he can't fulfill on any of those things. This is ridiculous. Even Cosmic Carnival was able to make a game. Ouch. I feel like Mark went in on Magic Girl here. No, seriously. If I went in on Magic Girl, I would be praying that I took the buyout as opposed to a Zidwar game because now I'm going to get screwed over twice. There's zero chance I'm seeing anything from this guy. They're still waiting for their game. I think the end of September, is that what they're supposed to get their Raza by? Yeah, there's a new deadline. I'm not sure what it exactly is, but I guess in response to your question though, Zach, yeah, I agree with you and Josh. I won't go as far as Scott, though. I like the passion. Here's, I mean, And based off of the statement that came out, I feel that, yes, the citation of the feedback very clearly indicates that they're suggesting that this half dozen team of pinball media pointed out things. But my concern is, let's assume that that is indeed true. What sort of situation do you have going on at your company that six, just six outsiders who do know pinball but are outsiders come in after you've been working on this for years and all of a sudden get you at the 11th hour to pull back from the reveal? like what's wrong with your machine if that's the case and why did your own team either not have the capability to identify it or it's too intimidated to speak the truth because those are the only two scenarios that would make sense to me if that statement is true either you're saying that veterans from the pinball industry like dennis nordman while he was there barry osler Jon Norris John Papadiuk they all work for manufacturers you're telling me none of them caught what this issue was or a regular high level competitive player like Steven Bowden didn't catch what this issue was. It's really it's really hard to believe. What would be less hard to believe would be if there was an internal culture that someone's making these decisions and doesn't listen to feedback. But why have the media go down there if you know it's like would it not have been better, fellas, to have to delay the media even coming down there? Yes, it would have. I mean, and just in my view, as I was thinking about this today, it's like, to me, everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong. And I had a half dozen things that I think were just like one for every media member, a half dozen things. So, I mean, and I'll run through them real quick because I listed them out. So the first is now after they did the announcement, the Raza images leaked. So they're losing narrative control over some of the innovations because now we're looking and analyzing these photos. and that wasn't the case before this. Second, they brought in the pinball media and then only after that did they announce there is no reveal. So that seems like a waste of time on those members and a waste of money for Deep Root. My third one would be that they present the reveal now as a beta event, like a beta test from video games, but they phrase things in such a way that the six people in pinball have exposed the flaws that the entire company couldn't detect. The fourth thing is they haven't even provided a vague timeline on a new reveal date. So it feels listless to me at this point. The fifth is they didn't share any information at all. All they did is announce the delay. So there's no hype maintained by what they put out there, only disappointment. And six, as the last part of their statement says, they hope to provide updates in the future. Hope? Like that to me sounds like they're not even sure they're going to be in business in six months. That actually kind of makes sense. Well, didn't you uh watch rogue one like rebellions are built on hope wow that's good says the man that just tore robert mueller okay there's zero chance i'm sorry there's no chance i am hopeless on this guy it's the two-faced destroyer this guy is so hopeless it's unbelievable like the the bottom line is he's so inept that he doesn't even recognize how much trouble he is actually in like that's the problem he has this high standards and it's not even a remote ability to look at it and say wow we got a problem here and here he if he brought people down he was truly feeling like all right this is my time boys like it doesn't this feel like homer simpson when he is spinning on that bubble car where the guy said do everything like whatever you want homer and so he's saying well i want this i want this and then at the very end it completely tanks the company this is that moment this is the moment where homer's in the bubble car and spinning around and the company is over i the the whole if you look at the logo of the company it is a comet blasting into the earth and destroying everything which is which is a slight tick up from the vague S&M version it had before, but now it's completely destroyed. I don't even understand why. This guy should hang up. He should sell the Pinball Brothers right now. He should never, he should just run out and never play pinball again. Scott, I know they didn't leak a topper yet, but it'll be alright. Man. okay now if you bring up a topper i may be in on this it sounds like you were really really looking forward to this okay well i was hoping i was hoping for something this is the worst like seriously i bet teal is rolling over in his canadian grave right now oh poor john if you show up to wally world with your family Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's it. You know what? You're going to go buy a BB gun and you're going to shoot John Candy and make him take you on the ride. Now, now, Scott, I want to I want to explore this a little bit more. And you mentioned you mentioned narcissism specifically. But but so but here's the thing, says I think in pinball, we have seen people that exhibit true narcissistic personality disorder. and the inability for them to ever admit they are wrong is one of the most paramount things. They always have to shift blame. So, but here in this case with Deep Root, they have pulled back from the reveal. So like, did something sink in? I mean, if that was the motivating factor, somehow it looks at least to me that someone, this half dozen of pinball personalities, pinball media came in and gave feedback and it sunk in in some capacity, right? Or else wouldn't it be, I don't care, the spinny bubble car of Homer Simpson is going to be produced, period? No, he just wanted media people to see what he's been working on. When these designers and these – when these designers, these creators are making pinball, believe me, I know firsthand that these people want others to share their excitement, their enjoyment, their work. So that's why we get all the leaks that we do in this industry in the first place. So I think, yeah, the team probably might not have just been Robert, but they wanted everybody down there to give some feedback and share in the excitement and what they're creating. It's just unfortunate now because I think the media providers are put in a really bad spot. Each and every one of us are podcasters. Put yourselves empathetically in their spot. Today was probably hell for them. They're getting flooded with messages. They can't share anything, but they are content providers. I think they were put in a pretty poor situation if I'm picturing it for myself. Yeah, this would be horrible if you actually went down and saw this disaster and unable to talk about it. It kind of reminds me again. This is a lot of Simpsons references. Do you remember when when Mr. Burns went bankrupt and was able to actually rebuild his empire and he goes to show Lisa how he's done it? And what he's done is he's hooked up all of these – you remember the six-pack sodas where they had those rings all together? He connected them all together and created a drift net that was cleaning everything out of the sea, including whales and dolphins. And Lisa's just horrified because she gave him the idea of what was going on. Like I have a feeling that the like the media personalities that went down and looked at it, they were probably apoplectic at absolutely how horrible like the actual process is behind the scenes. I mean, it could be. I don't disagree that that's that's conceivable. But, you know, when you're you're invited and you know you're going to sign an NDA, I mean, it's not that I'm not sympathetic. It's just I mean, that's kind of when you decide to agree that you're going to do a corporate official event style thing. That's almost part and parcel. I say almost because I don't think anyone who went down there actually thought that the reveal would not be public at this point, that the NDA was only going to be for a few days while they, you know, so that there would be a coordinated release of articles and audio and video, you know, sort of like kind of what JJP did with Wonka. It was all really structured, but it was only about a week's worth of time between when people were exposed who did the NDAs and when they got to go public. So I'm going to put this out there. If you look at Facebook, you look at Pinside, you look at the Deep Root threads there, you do have the Scots on one side of the spectrum. I feel like I'm on the side of the spectrum of honestly I feel like Deep Roots kind of made up at this point and so everything that's just being said is just being said I was actually kind of shocked them not revealing anything today but then part of me is like well what does it really matter because I don't feel like they're a legitimate company yet like if this was something else if this was I wasn't in the hobby during the JJP Hobbit fiasco of people waiting two, two and a half years to get their games, but I know people that were, and I can understand that being a really frustrating time, but we're looking at a company that hasn't taken any money from anyone that hasn't really revealed a game that holds weight with anyone, besides the fact that it's a J-pop game. I just, I don't see where the passion is coming from, and maybe it's because I don't understand the deep root. It's just because of all the talk. Like, let's be honest. Like, the first thing I remember from Deep Root was Martin and Ryan on Head to Head making fun of the Deep Root logo. That's really the only connection I have is we've been making fun of these people for three plus years, hoping they'll prove us wrong, and they just haven't yet. So I don't understand where the passion is coming from. Well, it's, you know, I would say it's probably, depending on the person, there are a few different variants of flavors for it. I mean, like I personally, while I wanted to see news about Deep Root, this in and of itself is I got my, you know, from a podcaster perspective, I got my news. I have news no matter what in terms of a reveal or a non-reveal. I'm not mad at Deep Root because, as you pointed out, I don't have any money in. Their success or failure has really no direct impact on me. But in terms of where people and their passion come from, I think most of it falls into one of primarily two realms. There is the you hired J-pop and we lost a ton of money on Zidware or I know friends who lost money on Zidware and we're mad at you for giving someone that we don't feel deserved another chance in this hobby another chance. And so there is a there is a bias against Deep Root for bringing John Papadiuk on board. That's one of that's one, I think, major category of anger. And then the other is that there were a lot of – well, I shouldn't say a lot, but there were a number of public both audio and written interviews about – involving Deep Root where there were a lot of statements that could probably be fairly succinctly described as either arrogant or at least boisterous. and including talking about outproducing Stern, saying that Multimorphic isn't innovative. I mean, just kind of talking a little bit, throwing some shade, talking a little trash on a number of manufacturers. And yet, as you've pointed out, Josh, they haven't produced anything. So there is almost a schadenfreude about that, that here's this company that's come out, guns a-blazing, talking smack, hiring people that are seen as toxic, and hey look they continue to fail before our very eyes it seems like this is like when they're talking to uh lavar ball you know the the guy he he talks so much trash and he played he was a backup guy during the jordan era but if you talk to him he truly believes that he won 10 championships like he he is that self-assured that he is so much better than his product is i do you remember uh oh uh bill parcells you remember when they asked him about he's like you're you are what your record says you are and they are what their record says they are i don't care what robert's saying anymore i'm not i i'm not really angry at the because i haven't lost a dime on this but at some point. This guy's a clown. There's nothing that he's actually doing to make other than standing up and making these big statements that he has never, he's never made good on. Right, right. And it's a good point, Scott. And I think that, you know, it depends on the person. So like doing the boisterous sort of arrogant statements to generate hype, I get that as a strategy. We've seen where people who behave in obnoxious ways in pinball get a lot of attention. So it definitely a strategy that can work at least for a certain segment of the population that they like that They want to see that you know they want it to be wrestling They want to see this WWE They want to see someone come up behind Stern and smack the company with a metal folding chair behind their back Again it all just sort of part and parcel of the hobby The thing that here about we were talking about, OK, well, that nothing's really happened yet. So why does any of this sort of matter? The problem is when you keep setting dates and you keep missing the dates and you don't put anything out there. I think that it really jeopardizes the credibility because when I look at the announcement that Deep Root made today and I see that they officially – because bear in mind, as we've noted, these photos, they're leaked. We don't – these did not come out direct from Deep Root on their page. So Deep Root scheduled this event for months after their last scheduled event where they were supposed to do a reveal, and then they give us not a single thing. and it's like almost like they think they can bottle the hype up and then just keep but you can't do that and keep moving the dates and while i think many actually i'd probably say all pinball companies in my experience have at some stage on some of their games failed in some capacity to properly do their reveals and their launches in this particular case i think that deep root should have given a little bit of something talked about some innovate because of this concern that it's vaporware that it's not they're never going to build they're never really going to finish something so at least there's got to be something about this game that is ready for prime time the display or something the legs i don't i mean something should be ready they and we've seen this with other companies where when they know things were like hobbit was an example brought up earlier when things were falling behind there was still a drip feed to let you remember that this game is actually being built. Oh, here's what the new play field art looks like. And okay, here's what we're doing with the third flipper. And it's just, they're not giving us anything. And I would be okay with that if they kept it all under wraps and just did the reveal, but not if you keep moving when your reveal is. Because you're toying with people. You've missed your date now by a year and a half. Because the date, as far as I'm concerned, was March 2019. So my question to you guys is now that DeepRoot has effectively not met their own deadlines three times in a row now, do you think it goes against when they finally do decide, hey, the machine's ready, you're able to purchase, do you think they've taken away trust from the community to actually back their product? Because if they're having this much difficulty getting out of the gate, how much difficulty they're going to have backing their product once it is out of the gate? I have zero confidence. Like none. I'm serious. This is ridiculous. Like, okay, I was pulling up the This Week in Pinball when it actually had the prototype of Raza out there. Any idea what date that was? Oh, when we talked to Jeff Teolis back in November 12th? 14th, 2019. And so that is the date of the first look of the Deep Root Pinball's Retro Zombie Adventureland. And you look at that and you compare that with the leaked photos and, okay, well, the backbox looks a little different. And yeah, there looks like there's some sort of screen down there on the bottom. But I don't know of anybody who went to that and said, wow, this is a great shooter. I love this. like like it wasn't even ready for prime time then einstern has put out how many games since then and and i know they're a machine and they know how to do it but you would think that at a year you're taking you can't even get this prototype all the way to a manufacturing thing and who knows if your eyes were too big maybe you need to scale your goals because you need to actually have something nobody cares anymore no one's ever going to buy this game uh in terms of josh's question uh very low yeah i i do think that confidence has fallen and for a startup confidence in being able to support the product is already low so i i knew an operator in the area who well he was actually he enjoyed houdini when he played it from american pinball more than he enjoyed dialed in from jersey Jack, but he would not buy an American pinball game. It was their first game. And he was like, if they, I'm not sure they're going to be around to support it. It was, I heard similar regarding spooky when they first started. I don't know if they're going to be able to last. I don't know if I can trust that they can support this game. And so DeepRoot was going to have that no matter what, because they're a startup. But I think the fact that they keep missing deadlines does diminish confidence in the product. Regarding Scott's discussion of the prototype. And I don't know if you've got the the two leaked images up but if you look at the side one where you can see the legs you might recall one of the big complaints about the prototype was the makeability of the right ramp shot which was seen as very very steep when i look at this photo and what i see is i see front legs with their leg levelers extended out and the one back leg i see does not appear to be extended out which makes me think this game is pitched six degrees or even shallower makes me suspect that it wasn't solved. I agree. I never noticed that. I do see that in the picture now that you say that. So it's stuff like that that concerns me because that ramp was, they had two different prototypes at the show. I heard one did play slightly better than the other in terms of makeability, but that the ramp was notoriously frustrating to get all the way around. We know Steven Bowden had rules to address when you only partially got up the ramp, but the inability to at least somewhat consistently make the ramp was a concern. And I remember an interview with Robert Mueller saying that they had made some adjustments to make the ramp easier to shoot. I hope that the recommendation wasn't, well, the game needs to be five and a half degrees. So my other question, or I want to point this out too, because this is the first thing I noticed when I saw these pictures, was the actual walk-down bar and not the fact that there's a screen in it, but look at those corners. Do you dare play this game? I have heard some people call it the Stellar Wars lockdown bar. Get ready for bruising. Good. Cry me like me. That's why the guests were like, how do you guys play this thing? Because it's stabbing me in the hand. And I've wondered if that – not that there's a screen. I'm assuming it's a touch screen. But not that there's some sort of screen at the lockdown bar. But I've wondered if some of the feedback was where the bottom of the play field starts. if there's like, did they maybe say it's difficult to see the flippers or this feels really awkward to look at? I wouldn't be surprised if like the back, the backbox to me, while it looks fairly different in a quasi-Aftor sort of way, if you've ever seen Aftor, I don't think that's problematic. At least in my mind, it wasn't really problematic. But the lockdown bar area is where I'm going to guess there were some concerns. and then the other the other question i had too because this is also the other first thing that popped out to my eyes why are there speakers at your crotch i mean that's that's where they're placed right right i'm guessing because i i'm i'm assuming the little uh display in the back with little dashes are also more speakers so they might be trying to do a more distanced actual surround sound style thing which could be cool someone had mentioned maybe it's the subwoofer i That's the first thing that caught my eye, or my eyes, was I'm like, well, I saw the speakers there, so then I looked up at the display and there's probably speakers there. I mean, they are angled strangely, but one could say that angling your subwoofer directly into the floor isn't the best placement either. Yeah. Okay, but those are like four-inch subwoofers. Boom, boom, boom. It's to hear the Aquabats in all their glory. You know it. That's true. You know, if they retrofitted this for the Aquabats, I would be a first. I would be an LE purchaser, and I would give it to Root. Really? You would be the only one. Deep Root, please. Please make an Aquabats pinball machine. Actually, don't do that because it's never going to happen. You're going to tie up the licensing, and then I'm never going to see a game. The licensing will just be locked up for years. You'll never get that five bucks back. Yeah. oh gee you know it's it's just sad like i don't i don't know how else to describe it like there's obviously this is a cratering like the the logo is a is a career event for them it just explains exactly what they did to the company that never existed like they're going to be jumping like all you're going to start seeing everybody beef up their linkedin profiles and saying hey uh I hear there's more jobs in Chicago. Maybe I should move there. Yeah, my biggest – actually, as I noted, I wasn't – emotionally, I don't really care whether – what happens with any of the pinball companies. Pinball will endure no matter what, even if we're only talking used games. I know that is a shock to many of you, especially some of the distributors amongst us. But the thing that actually, I guess, of anything about this that disappointed me that I got from the statement when they announced there would be no reveal was that I was just – I thought it was really unfortunate that it looked like if they had gone ahead with a reveal, it still was just going to be Raza after all this time. I agree. And in a way, I get it. And normally I would say, yeah, you reveal one pinball machine at a time. But given all the statements that have happened and the fact that we did, because they put the prototype out, we did already have an understanding of the Raza layout. I really at least was hoping that they would announce the themes of another couple games or something. But ultimately nothing happened. So, I mean, it's moot. But still, that did disappoint me some. Because I just thought – I'm trying to find things like what can Deep Root do that will let them stand out from the pack? And it's like trying to fulfill on some of those past statements would be what I would think you need to do. But I mean at this point, I guess it's just you need to show something, and it shouldn't just be leaked images of strange front leg leveler lengths and have some official something out so that we know. So – because what people are going to ask right now is, OK, well, it's been six months since when you were supposed to reveal at TPF. What have you accomplished? And it's fair enough to say, well, that's private. But on the flip side, if you're trying to make people still have interest, they need to feel like that it's not vaporware, that you're not the 3D realms of pinball. Well, do you think also that part of the issues that they've been having with this – because we did see the prototype back in November. talking about Jeff T. Olson and them. We got to talk to them. And back then, it was just pretty much – oh, what's the word I'm looking for? So it was pretty much just a normal cabinet from a play field from Marco and all that jazz. And now we have whatever cabinet you want to call this. Do you feel like maybe they've had some issues with trying to transition to their cabinet, and that might be somewhere the problem is coming from? Okay, but you can make one cabinet. You can make your prototype as weird as you want. It's one thing. Give me a week and I don't know anything about making a cabinet and I could at least put together four boards and a piece of glass. And come on, this is so epic of a fail. I don't even know what to say. Like you had one job. You had one job to make one game, let alone 10 games. And it's the same boring game that you had before. Like what have you been doing for an entire year? It seems like you've come to the final in a turn and you turn in the term paper that you had said you wanted to write all semester. And your professor is looking at like, this is all the crap that you gave me like in week one. What have you been doing all semester? Well, I've had a lot of health issues or well, I've had a lot like it's like the excuses never end as opposed to, well, I did this. Like they've accomplished zero right now. Well, I mean, to be fair, they also haven't given any excuses. They just say they missed their deadlines and then that they need more time. Yeah, we don't ever know why. I think they're just not ready for it. That's the bottom line. It's like – So do you think that they knew that they were going to have to delay when they brought the media out? At this point? I would bet that Robert didn't know, but I guarantee all the people who have pinball manufacturing experience already knew. Hmm. Okay. I mean, I could see that. I could see that. So I think Robert was going like guns a-blazing forward, and everybody was thinking this isn't going to work. And so they brought people outside people who are not on their payroll who said this isn't going to work. like how could that be a surprise to anybody yeah i mean i i was wondering if maybe there's one of the innovations perhaps that has been finicky or hasn't been working right and they kept thinking that they're so close to solving it but it's it becomes hard to imagine that you can't you don't know until it's in a way too late that you can't solve it and but the nearest example i can think of is with jersey jack actually when pirates of the caribbean was in prototype mode and you know the game didn't come out as quickly as everyone had been expecting and you know and again it wouldn't i guess we're not too surprised because at that point jersey jack was always late on its final releases versus its prototypes but it on retrospect it seemed at least to me fairly obvious that they had spent that big prototype period desperately trying to get the triple spinning disc and chest to work consistently and ultimately they had to pull the plug on it, which in their case was, I think, pretty devastating because the fallout from the drama to do that decision resulted in very low sales of that game. I think that is one of the most directly responsible things for why that game did not sell. And by the time people got to try the finalized version and know, hey, this is a really good game, it's already off the line and they've got to move forward with Wonka. Yeah, I guess with Pirates of the Caribbean, I will say that he tried multiple innovations. It wasn't like the one thing that he did. He had like five things that really haven't been done. I mean, even his approach to the bottom of making a wide body feel a little more like a standard body. And his approach was revolutionary. And including the ship and the rocking ship and the disc. Yes, I actually think that they probably could have made the triple thing work uh with a little more time but that was what they led with and you are exactly right they led and said this is the innovation and then eric had to go and say yeah okay so yeah it was the walk back and i could see where maybe deeper it's like okay we what if what if there's some innovation here i mean because what innovations have they come public with the the hammer test is about the only one and maybe that's the hedge to be sure that okay well, if it's a touchscreen on the lock bar and the touchscreen can't be done, we can pull that and we're not going to look real bad. Because I could see how one could say, look at what happened to JJP. You're right. The triple spinning disc was not the most impressive feature mechanically. It was featured. It was in the Matrix. It was heavily promoted. And I thought this was very unfortunate. Actually, I won't say unfortunate. I thought this was a mistake. After they announced that the triple spinning disc would not be done, those triple spinning prototypes were still the ones taken to shows. Yes. Do you think, I know this is probably far-fetched and too far out in left field, this is actually part of the marketing, and tomorrow or the next day we actually get, surprise, we were joking, and here's all this information from everyone. Okay, Josh, that's like not showing up for your wedding day when you have everything set up, and then say, surprise, we're all open to Vegas. uh yeah yeah i yeah like there's zero chance your bride's gonna be there i'm sorry it's not gonna happen no scott scott's right um it would be an incredible prank but i don't think it's a very good way to launch a product so so um because what do you gain like there's there's no advantage and best you end up with i mean there'll be some people that'll be relieved but you're gonna have people will be like, you just trolled me. Thanks a lot. On your reveal day too. Hey, I am deep down desperately hoping for that because it will just show how absolutely clueless this guy is. I can't fathom. I cannot fathom. I feel like, and it's probably an illusion, but I feel like when I read that statement that the company put out that I can read the pain in that statement. Yeah, it's crestfallen like the entire you could probably just feel the air going out of the company right now because the dream's over. It's not going to happen. I mean, any rational I don't and I don't know what odds I would put on, actually. But but, you know, as as we did before going on air today, I've had numerous messenger requests or or DMs coming in from people wanting to talk about this. And one of the most common things that I'm now seeing people bring up is, so what are the odds they ever produce? And I think that's what you see in that statement is they know September 21st, 2020 was their last window to actually be seen as credible. And now at this point, there's always going to be, unless and until they produce, a high level of doubt about anything they – like the credibility is not there. And that's terrible because now that – I mean it's going to take a lot of marketing effort to overcome anything like that. It really is. The best case scenario is this is Big Bang Bar with Gene Cunningham. That's the best scenario where it was never going to happen and finally he's just like, no, I'm going to prove everybody wrong and he did it. And it submarine-ed him. Like that is the best case scenario for Deep Root is that they finally make these Raza games that go out and the company folds after that. I don't know if that's best case. Yeah, no, because here's the thing. And yeah, I agree with – I do agree with Josh on that. And the reason is we don't actually know how much investment money is behind Deep Root and how much they might still have available to continue as they have been. That's the one thing. No, the tank's empty. There's nothing left. The fuel gauge is zero. There's nothing left. I don't know. I don't know. So, Zach, I posed a question to these two earlier. I'm now going to pose it to you. With you being a distributor, it's fine if you say, hey, I want to skip on this question. but with Deep Root showing time and time again that they can't hit a deadline, does it make you question selling their product that they'll actually be able to fulfill it once they actually do start getting out the door? So say Raza finally gets out the door, you sell a few units, are you actually confident that they're going to be able to back their product because of everything that's been going on? That's a really good question. It's tough to answer because I don't know. I took the plunge with the Cosmic Carnival people, Suncoast. And the idea when I took the plunge there was I'll get in early. I'll buy a game for myself. And I did. And it did not hold up to the expectations that I have, nor to the ones that I would want to put on my customer. So I refused to buy any more. now that was a business decision but it was also a hobbyist decision i try to run my business as a hobbyist first and it has paid off very well for me so far so i i probably do the same thing for deep root i would not feel comfortable going in for a number of pins before i've actually seen what my customers are going to get and i say my my wife and i our customers are going to get and then if it was a game that I thought people would like, even if I didn't like it, if it was built well and it looked like it was going to hold up, then I would be fine pulling the trigger. But that being said, I don't know if they're going the distribution model. I've talked to Mr. Mueller on and off for the last six months or so, maybe even a little longer, and it kind of goes back and forth still. and I'm not sure that they're even 100% sure what they are going to do day to day. So, yeah, good question. I wouldn't have any problem selling Deep Root games if I thought they were built well enough for my customers and customers were wanting them. Hopefully that answered your question. Yeah, I think that answers my question very well. Because, like I said, my biggest concern is they've just – the only thing that Deep Root has proven time and time again is their word doesn't mean very much. And the problem is, is in a hobby where a lot of people take you for your word and your integrity, they have kind of destroyed that. And so my concern is even if they do finally get out the door, they just won't be able to repair the damage that they've done themselves. It's a good point, but never underestimate the ability of pinball people to forgive, especially when they want stuff. If you've got a good game that's going to sell, people will forget anything negative about it. I mean, a case in point is the number of people that have continued to be interested, despite what happened with Zidware and American Pinball with John Papadiuk. And that does that did alienate a portion of the audience. But so did in terms of an opposite of getting people very sympathetic to Deep Root, you know, despite all the boisterous statements that there were these sort of settlement terms where Deep Root was offering to pay out or give a game to individuals that had lost out on Zidware. And they didn't have to do that. Obviously, they wouldn't have had that discussion at all had they not hired him. But that was seen as a as a grace building move. They could do something like that in the future as well that could help build goodwill. And I think it's really important to not forget that they have not taken pre-order dollars. So they're not in the same position that we saw with Highway. There were people with Cosmic Carnival, or at least one person, who ended up not getting their game even though they paid. I do know of a distributor that didn't get one or more games that they paid for. Yeah. And so – and that was part of the controversy back with JJP with Woz and Hobbit and even arguably to this day with Spooky, they're still doing pre-orders. And JJP did pre-orders for a while. Look at Dutch Pinball. People love the Big Lebowski. Non-refundable deposits in the way of Spooky. Let me clarify. Yeah. It doesn't matter what Dutch Pinball does. People will still be buyers for the Big Lebowski. Yeah, and to someone like me, I'm like, I cannot believe people are dropping like, what, 12.5? Yeah, 12.5 or so. 12.5, yep. For a company that some people have been sitting like five years waiting for their pre-order. I thought that company would be out of business two years ago, but I've been wrong. And this is a little off the topic, but it's still relevant. Whenever people ask me, how can you own a business in this industry? All it's going to take is for the market to crash and nobody's going to be buying games. I don't know if that's true. There is an addictive feature to this hobby that people will find a way to feed that need. They will buy pinball machines. And until I'm proven otherwise, I don't know if it ever totally tanks. I think Roger Sharp was talking about that at some point. Well, it used to be with the operators because historically, even in recessions, the one thing people still had were quarters and they could go and they could play a pin. And so there was a. Yeah, but ironically, during the during this covid time, then the people they're not able to go out. So they're actually buying more games like the market is is hotter than it ever has been just because of that fact that people are like, I still want the entertainment value. And so, yeah, I don't think that I think there will always be a market for pinball. I just just my confidence in Deep Road is zero. And so I as I as a consumer would not feel confident in actually buying one of their games until maybe like eight years down the line when they established themselves However caveat I am not an early adopter Like I am I do not, I'm not the first person who runs out and buys something. I don't care if some, if a new company comes out and it's a limited edition. And so there's only 20 of them. So there's this exclusivity clause, which they try to run on a lot of these games. I'm not that guy. I'm totally fine to wait until it becomes mainstream and get a product that I consider ten times better at about a tenth the price. But here's the thing. I think that's the case for a lot of people when it comes to the theming of Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland. If they took this pin, guys, and they redid it to one of my dream themes, Back to the Future Goonies, guess what? My hypocrite, oh, I almost cursed, but would be buying it. I know myself well enough, and it's nostalgia, and it brings me back to what's important to my life and to my memories, and I would buy that game. The problem that Robert Mueller has now is that he has a theme that nobody cares about. There is no one that gives two squirts about, see what I did there, that doesn't care about this theme. We saw it played at the Houston Expo. Nobody was just singing praises of the way it shot. So what do we have now? We're waiting for innovation to sell this machine. We've seen now leaked pictures, and from what we can visually see, nobody's going to be screaming from the hilltops for that either. So now it's the one thing that nobody really knows, and that's code. Code can sell games, but it doesn't do as good a job selling games as themes and other things do. Yeah, Zach's right on the theme thing. Currently, the only thing that I view that Raza has going for it is there is a segment of the pinball population, but obviously very small compared to having a good theme, that is desperate for anything new from John Papadiuk. I'm kind of one of them. Yeah. I like John Papadiuk too. My friend has a – he has a beautiful Circus Voltaire and I love playing it. However, I don't know. I just – I don't think there's anything – OK. On Dialed In, how many people bought Dialed In because you can play from your smartphone? oh probably zero yeah zero exactly and so if you're trying to sell on innovation i this is where williams lost and data e slash stern actually won like data e slash stern they realized that theme is everything like theme will elevate a a bad game and these are the lessons they learned Williams was trying to get into that, but even they picked these dog themes with Johnny Mnemonic. They picked The Shadow. They picked all these movies that are terrible, and the only one that they actually – Yeah, but they went into R&D on those before they knew whether or not they were going to be hits. Right. They had to go in early on those. But times are different. The 90s – apples and oranges. The 90s and operating pinball machines is no longer what it is now. The need for a theme now is so prevalent, not because of a barcade, because those pins and arcades are going to be played regardless of what's there. Now it's important because people, the boomers, the up and comers, the Xers, we are buying games in our homes and we only have a certain amount of money and certain amount of space. So darn well better be a theme that we really, really relate to. Not everybody has done that, but that is very much so the decision-making on, I would say, the majority of home buyers. That's why it's important now, whereas in the 90s, I don't think it was as important because it wasn't introduced yet as an important thing. So I guess, honestly, the biggest tragedy for me from all this today is that we won't be hearing from Steven Bowden daily on Fun With Bonus. Yeah. And I don't know what the reasoning is behind this, and I know Steve and Seth's stuff is still going to still come out. So there's a correlation there, and maybe it's not a causation, but I don't think it's a coincidence that he chose to announce this on the day that they chose to delay Raza and the reveal of Deeper products. Yeah, it seems – yeah, I think it's related. When I read his – and initially I was very concerned because the way it phrased, I thought that there was an employment change. yeah that's what i thought he was because what would make someone not want to do anything in pinball at all well i'll tell you what would for me and that would be if i worked in pinball and then i didn't all of a sudden well not only that but you gave up your life and everything you knew and moved how many miles away for that hobby but in the details of his blog post he mentioned wanting to you know focus a lot more on talking about rules not having to feel compelled to post every single day and talking about like the rule development going on at DeepRoot. Now, that could ultimately, from a company standpoint, be smart if they're willing to let him actually get somewhat specific on some concepts of rules. Because right now, we don't really, other than what we saw in the prototype for Raza, we don't have any sense about like what the rules and modes are going to be. And is it really that much of a spoiler to talk about like theories on multipliers and how maybe it would be cool to have partial ramp drops that feed that? I don't know. Without seeing the games at the same time, it's difficult for me to envision if you'd gain a whole lot from it. But my biggest problem up until this point with Deep Root is how little they communicate, period. I mean they only set up their Facebook page like six weeks ago. Where's their marketing? Where's their marketing person? I don't mean like a marketing campaign. I mean just like where's their marketing person? Where's the face of the company? Well, I think what it's shown is that Deep Root lacks three things. Deep Root doesn't have any marketing, they don't have a sales team, and they don't have a marketing team. And so if you're going to be a pinball company, how can you function without all three of those things? It sounds to me like their biggest issue surpasses all three of those points, and it's manufacturing. I would say – is it that or is it – do you have someone that – I'm not saying Robert Mueller is bad for the company, But maybe they need to have someone else as a chief officer over the pinball division, and Robert's the one. Like a George Gomez. Yes, exactly. Just like a George Gomez. And then Robert Mueller's there to maybe have the final say or whatever it may be, but have someone that can run the day-to-day operations. Because my understanding, Robert's still doing – he owns – what is it, a law firm business or something? He's got to be a big guy. Yeah. So you can't be making these decisions for Deep Root at the same time you're trying to take care of Joe Schmo and his car accident. Poor Joe Schmo. There's really a Joe Schmo out there. It's like, son of a – Yeah, man. My parents suck. They need me, Joe. Did you guys talk about the looks of this thing? Did I miss out on that? We talked a little bit about it. Okay. Yeah, I brought up the leg levelers because – and someone else had initially pointed that out to me and thought about the troubles with hitting the right ramp. And my concern is that's part of their solution is that this game is actually not pitched at six and a half. They've pitched it shallow. It looked like the right ramp was significantly modified. And I've heard that too. But why are the front legs so steep? I don't know what that was about. I don't know. I just – I saw the ramp. why is the ramp frosted what is this my my my hair tips in the 80s your 3d oh wow i want a picture yeah no i i think it's more of a wham wake me up before you go go yeah i can see that yeah the ramp i thought it was modified i mean it it sweeps much more to the left even the elevation the height of it is significantly reduced and if you see the top diverter that is substantially changed as well i don't i didn't see visually anything else on the play field that was different per se but then again the the photo was not very detailed and you can't tater cam yeah can't really tell what was going on i want to i want to know who took that picture no they could be killed yeah exactly fiber towel and wipe off that screen please thank you yeah maybe maybe the frosted ramp is is like you when you know you get a new phone and it's got the frosted thing over the front of it you have to peel it off yeah that back you keep it on forever oh are you one of those people i hate those people no i'm not that guy rip that sucker right off oh my grand like that he'd always have stuff i'm like dude pull the thing off and he's like no because it it makes it look nice i'm like for who the next owner like it's like grandma with the uh with the saran wrap all the way around the couch so you actually can never sit on the couch because you're preserving it for your legacy i will be buried in this couch no i don't know what to think about the the visual of this thing with the wraparound uh i don't know if it's translate i don't know if it's back glass and acrylic i assume translate i why is it is it crooked or something why is it black in the upper left corner it's killing me So it's supposed to be askew to represent, I think, like a movie poster, but it bugs me. Every time I've seen that picture today, I thought – I had someone message and say they thought that it was Photoshopped because they couldn't understand why that was crooked. That doesn't look – Well, if they Photoshopped it, they did a good job because it's both pictures. It's perfectly crooked. It cannot be Photoshopped because if it was Photoshopped, then the person that knows how to do Photoshop that well would have actually filtered that picture to look better. I like the whole thing being illuminated. That's a good one. I've actually read online the most positive comments regarding that, regarding the trans-litey thing. The biggest concern being the pegs. Some people are worried that those pegs will break if you shake the game a lot. I don't know if they're steel or what, though. Aftor from the 80s did something like that, and I assume the wiring is running through those heads. Yeah, I don't want to be visually. I don't want to be too negative because for me, it's going to be one of two things when I see this in person, because it is so dynamically different than everything else we've seen in pinball minus pin 2K thing. But either it's going to look just really, really cool and revolutionary, or it's going to look like Value City Furniture pinball edition. with like an old 2000 waterbed with the bars going up in the black. Like it looks like a fish tank. Okay. I had a, I had a waterbed in high school and this is now I can only see the water. You can see it. Like a waterbed. I'm like that, that this pinball machine looks as if back in the eighties, they were guessing what it would, a pinball machine would look like in 2021. It's a steampunk pinball machine. Yeah, I'm waiting for Jaws to come out of the marquee that looks like crap, and now that it is in 2020, we're like, oh, man, they really got that wrong. That's what it looks like. It does – yeah. I mean I can kind of see. I heard someone else say they thought it looked overly Art Deco. I remember reading someone else say that their big issue was actually the space between the display and the translight and being able to see through the back, through to the wall. uh overall i'm not i actually am okay with the backbox design but i have quite a number of arguably odd looking back boxes because my collection is so eclectic so was that a shutter of pleasure or was that a shutter of i don't want i don't want to know i don't want to asymmetry so the question is dennis how what kind of topper would you put on this game oh yeah uh yeah probably a flying saucer i know it would come across completely as derivative of cgc's attack from mars remake but it's the right answer on a spring uh yeah and probably let it glow and ideally the spring would be wrapped in a in pink led rope so it looks like the beam blasting because hey if they can put if they can put toadles logo over toadles logo To have Toyota logo inception, then we can do a ship blasting into a ship blasting on Barraza. So if we perp out this game, you think it'll make it better? I generally think purple is never the solution to anything. You know what? The theme and art all is for purple. Not going to lie. I'm just saying that nice primary colors, things like yellows, those are what you want. Okay, if this thing were rethemed to Purple Rain and the right ramp were Prince's motorcycle, would you buy it? I would not, but people would. Yeah, you're getting closer. There are some things visually that work on this game. I agree. If you guys are looking at the picture, the stainless steel side rails, I mean, it's a small feature, but I like how they're not just your uniform same size across the whole front to back of the pin, how they have a little bit of detail there. That is a nice look. I don't know why the stainless steels don't match on the lockdown bar to the side rails. That's odd, and it visually makes your eyes go right to the thumbprint LCD screen down there. Yeah, geez. I just don't know how that's going to feel. It looks like it's location-wise physically in a place where your hands are going to be touching it. Palms should never touch anything irregular whenever you're playing a pinball machine because it will and it does throw you off. I'm trying to think what machine did that. Was it multimorphic? There was a machine that every time I felt, I'm like, ah, like there's a sharp stainless. It's not like it hurts, but it's just annoying. So I don't know how that passed R&D, not just pulling that LCD screen in a bit. But maybe it feels fine. I don't know. Now that you're pointing it out, the weird part is, too, is the LCD down at the flippers almost looks bigger than the LCD in the backbox. I bet it's the same size. From a manufacturer, I would bet they're just the same thing. It's not even on. Is it LCD? The backbox thing? I know it's color, so I'm assuming it was. But then if the front thing, if the front lockdown screen is like a touch screen, then they may had to go with a more standardized dimension that something more available on the market. Yeah. And maybe they need that or chose that size because they want to show like the switch tests and all that on on the apron display or have some interaction between the back screen and that. I mean, because it is fairly sizable. Obviously, I don't see a start button on this game, so that's going to be involved in some way to get the game going, I'm assuming. I think it's going to be a dashboard. I think it's going to be a dashboard for players to hook up to Wi-Fi to save their game. I think there's going to be a lot of user interaction right there. So, yeah, starting a game makes sense right there. But there's something like the art. I don't know. The art's not. I mean, I like the art. I think the art is actually one of the best things about the game. I think it's kind of fun. Here's one. Envision a video mode where it's like a phone touchscreen game where you're going to play on that. Oh, I got it. Fruit Ninja. We got to do Fruit Ninja the pinball machine. That would have been a great, great license eight years ago. Yeah. Well, yeah. That's like Angry Birds doing a pinball. Yeah, that's what I was just thinking. It's the Angry Birds movie that came out like 10 years after it was relevant. Yeah. The number one thing I saw on this game from Houston to now is I'll give them a lot of credit on the animation. The animation looks nice. Yeah, I remember seeing the video. Yeah, the teaser was very well done. I don't have any – without having played it, and I know that's a huge caveat. I don't have any major issues with what I'm looking at. My concerns are entirely around the lack of revealing it. Yeah, it's a bit funky because how are you going to take this type of cabinet aesthetics and seemingly just put it into everything that you're going to put in a pinball machine? It's a bit too. But it works better for this theme than something else. But just think of all the different things, especially with the rumors of them coming up with so many different original themes. I just don't know how it fits. And they can't. Manufacturing wise, you have to keep the cabinet the same. It's not like you can keep switching it up. yeah well and my other thought process too is is i don't know about you guys i know i know zach you move a lot of pinball machines but how do you drop a head on this thing you just pull it up out of the body and that was kind of my first concern based on some of the rumors and some of the leaked stuff we've seen that's one of their revolutionary uh proprietary things yeah so i don't know do you think that the backboard is too small especially with uh games Everyone has a Stern in their collection or maybe a Valley Williams. I mean, heck, does this backbox, will it hide behind that stuff because it's so small? If I was Deep Root and I was developing a new look for a pinball cabinet, I would sure as heck have a jersey jack and a Stern machine left to right flanked on it, and I would design it around the same height and the same depth of that backbox head. I'd also look at the cabinet to make sure that it's not any longer or shorter than other pins in a collection. And I would probably make sure that it height wise is about the same elevation. If you look at them from the side, it's just something so simple to do. You can still make a dynamic cabinet, but make sure that it doesn't just stick out so much. So and you can you can start over on the whole, you know, cabinet thing. But if you're going to do that, you better make sure they buy game number one. And you don't come out with Roz as game number one if you want to do that. So they better play nice with others until then. Do you think that – because we never heard about this in November at Pinball Expo or Houston Expo. That screen is quite big, and looking at a pinball machine that I've got in front of me, we keep talking about size. It almost looks like you'd have to extend the cabinet just to fit the screen. So does it stick out longer or do our playfields become shorter? I was just going to say, I'm not exactly sure how big the screen is vis-a-vis the traditional apron, which it seems to be replacing. Yeah, it hangs over more. So when I'm looking at the new one versus the Deep Root prototype, I actually like the prototype. And maybe it's just because I like that it looks like a grown-up pinball machine. uh this this cabinet it it looks like this um it's like a home pin it's like a home version it doesn't look substantial it doesn't look like it could go in an arcade and with i'm sorry with that uh with that backbox that has that uh 3d ish or that that wraparound it's like a show yeah i i would be kind of worried that one what happens is that going to be to stand up to anything is a fragile, at least I know the standard backbox, at least the glass is pretty much protected in case someone bumps it. That seems way too exposed. And it, I like the, I would go back with the prototype more than I would with this one. This, this seems like a design miss. So I don't, I don't get it. It's not mine. Not, not, not my bag, baby. So I want to know how you open the back of the head. to do what uh to work on anything yeah i mean the main what do you think's in there a bulb in 2021 nothing needs to be back and there doesn't need to be ahead and that's i'm sympathetic to to scott's point but but also i mean where we are sort of stuck with legacy cabinet shape that by and large doesn't serve any purpose anymore other than it's just how it's always been I mean, one of the big complaints about sterns that I hear from people is, well, they feel so cheap. And it's like, well, there's no weight in them anymore. The boards are teeny tiny baby boards. I mean, we don't need a backbox that's like eight inches thick anymore. We just don't. As far as long as the play field is the standard length and width of a play field, I'm relatively accepting, though I do want some sort of display translate style thing to catch the eye. so they want to thin it up and and change that around and not have the board you know i'm all boards not being in the back of the head it's like it's gone wrong so many times but even at this point most of the node boards that stern's using are actually connected to the play field so as long as they finally figured out how to stop screws from dropping on there and shorten things out atari style yeah that's the bad part yeah but i mean so yeah it looks i i think maybe they went a little like with how the trans light connects to the display that connects to the main cabinet maybe went like they tried a little too hard to make it look different uh like maybe it would have been better if that was all one unified piece but if they want it to be like half the normal width or thickness i'm like if yeah at this point everyone else is just doing it the old way because it you know it's to keep the lineup standardized or something and okay dennis I want you to try something. Take a look at the, you know, whatever leaked picture you want, cover the bottom part. And then imagine that in, so you're only seeing the backbox. Imagine that as the top of a Walmart display display. Okay. Yep. Always a low price. Doesn't it look like I am, I'm about to buy a cheap knockoff $5 DVD for my kid at Walmart. Or a guppy pink, either or. Yeah, but that's what it looks like to me. It doesn't look like, wow, I'm going to have a great time playing this machine. It looks like I'm buying something at a big box store. Yeah, I mean, I can see it, but I don't look at the Translight to decide if I'm going to have a good time playing a game or not. Totally fair. But aesthetics, if they are changing it, they are trying to make a statement with their aesthetics. And if the statement is, I look like a Walmart display, I don't think that's what they're going for. I just think still might look pretty darn cool in real life. I'm still not convinced it doesn't look good. It may, in fact, look great in real life. I think what is damaging to them is canceling this reveal and then letting these pictures get out. That is super damaging because you have no narrative that you get to play with when people see your product for the first time. Nothing. Hell, if I was Robert right now, I would be throwing out a promo that has some voiceover, that's got some animation, that's got some gameplay just to pull people back in. Let me ask you a question, though. This – so this machine appears to be on, right? Yeah. Because we're seeing the lights. Why is there nothing on either display? Because they've unplugged them. I don't – that's a good question. I don't know. I'm wondering why there's – Okay. This is supposed to be a reveal party, right? Like – Well, I don't know the context of when the photos were taken. Okay. Well, they should – Well, okay. but if you fire up a machine everything should fire up right it doesn't have two switches but does this have a sleep mode where it turns off the the monitors and and just lets the gi go i don't know it doesn't have an attract mode it might have an attract mode but i mean like for example when i when i get all my games i one of the things i do is i disable all sound in attract mode they might have thought well maybe some people don't like the flashing screens and stuff let's disable the screens and the and the touch screen goes to sleep and then when you touch the touch screen it it goes back it all fires up yeah yeah or maybe it has an option like gi lighting mode but if it's your start button you wouldn't want that screen to sleep at all well an operator might have the ability to turn off sleep mode just like when i get a laptop i turn off sleep mode when it's plugged in because i don't see the point but dang it robert why would you if you're going to put this much stainless and make a point to have a speaker panel that's stainless and goofy little speaker stainless on the front of your cab can you not just make the darn coin door stainless as a that is a typical stern coin door come on bobby pinball the shooter housing stainless just make everything stainless now the announcement of the non-reveal did indicate there were technical issues maybe the game screens broke and once they turned it on and all that worked was the gi could be that too well and and last point on the whole light thing if you look at the inserts that are lit on both angles, it's the same lights, I believe. Thus, almost in a state of that's where it's locked in. It's locked up. Yeah. The I and the E are lit. Got to reset it. Yeah. Someone reached behind the right side corner of the trans. Oh, wait. Maybe they put the power switch in the proper space. Okay. This feels like the first Houdini. You remember that? where it looked pretty from a distance, but it was behind a velvet rope. It actually didn't flip. Is this a Houdini part two? Oh, the diorama Houdini. Wow, that's a throwback. No, I mean, maybe, but we know that they have a flippable version because the prototype was, as someone today described it to me, it wasn't fun, but it was playable. Okay, that should be on a bumper sticker. Wasn't fun, but playable. That sounds like a bad date. I don't know. I hope that last, last poke I'll have, and then I'm going to be fully supportive. I hope that this pin comes with a couple of those Swiffer, Swiffer dust. I hope that this pin comes with some Swiffer dusters because there's going to be a lot of dust that collects under that fish tank head thing. Like you're going to, I actually saw an operator complain about that. Like, yeah, I could see it about having to vacuum that out. Oh man. Okay. What I want is an automatic fish feeder that goes into the head. And so it can feed the goldfish that are obviously going to be swimming behind the illuminated translight. I'm surprised nobody's done a curved screen yet. Well, aren't those Sega whatever ones were? Oh, yeah, like Starship Troopers. No, that's the Showcase Head. I'm talking about instead of like a Jersey Jack but doing a concave screen. That's innovative. That's new. That's what a lot of people are using nowadays in home theater, right? those curved displays. Yeah. Do something like that. Yeah, but that's a lens that goes on your projector. No, no. My friend was talking about the whole screen is shaped like a banana. Yeah, you're talking about like the Sony 4K HTVs or whatever they are. Yeah, why doesn't anybody utilize one of those? That would have been probably more. I've never seen a screen that curves that's this small, though. That can't be cheap. There's no way. With pinball, you're trying to get away with the cheapest possible. Why don't you give them a $10,000 bomb and then you can do that? No, guys. What do you think the price of this thing is going to be? Too much. Actually, it doesn't matter because I'm never going to be able to buy it because it is never going into production. I'm going to say in the neighborhood of $8,000 with what we're seeing in the leak, the touchscreen and all that. I bet they go a three-tier system, and they do have a pro, and I bet it's at like $55. Wow. And then I say that they have a premium, and it's around $7,000. I thought Robert had indicated there was only going to be one variant of Roz. It's going to be cheaper. Yeah. But he did mention that there was different variants of different games, too. Yes, that some would have trim choices. I should have chromed it. I'm looking at it. Oh, my God. No one cares about chrome. At least it would stand out as luxurious. Okay, so all I can say is if I had $9,199, I would buy an Avengers LE like I just did, and I would not wait for this box of lights. You're a good man, Scott. If this game shot well, I'd be a buyer. Okay. Fair enough. Okay, that is totally fair. Yeah, and I do like the way John Papadu games are fun. I just don't see it with this one. I think it checks enough boxes for me, and I'm a fan of J-pop games in general. Personally, I'm a fan of Steven Bowden. I don't know how great of a coder he is yet, but visually, it doesn't offend me. The art doesn't offend me. and by offense meaning not that I'm truly offended, but just that it doesn't disgust me. I like the display, the ratio of the backbox display. I'd buy it if it was a good game. I'm sorry, Zach. I'm just amassing the slogan that I can run with, and it will be the Zach Mini quote, I'd buy it if it shoots well because it doesn't disgust me. It doesn't disgust me. What a standard. Wow. Exactly. The fish tank might look damn cool in person. It's not fun. It's clunky, but it gets the job done. Yeah. I'm glad you're honest, Zach. It's just whatever standard you use to make a determination on a pinball purchase, it is so outside the norm for most people in the hobby. You're saying aesthetics, and I say if it shoots nice, now you guys are like, oh. No, I like that. But you're just like, yeah, because you, who's Mr. Buy-All-About-Art, is all of a sudden like, well, I'll buy a game if it shoots well. I don't know anything about the rules, but the art doesn't disgust me, so it's a win. I like the color choices. Okay. All right. Purple. Purple. All right. I'm going to give a hot take right now. Oh, boy. You got a lot of stuff here. And this is based off of what Mueller has said in the past, is that they want to be competitive, as competitive as Stern. They want that pie of the high-volume manufacturing. My hot take is Stern is too far ahead of the game, and Keith Elwin is killing it so well that I don't think that it is obtainable to become – from starting line to become as productive as what Stern is doing right now. All right. What if Robert hires Keith Elwin and Eric Minier? Ooh. Possible. What a twist, right? Yeah. Well, that's why I'm here. Well, certainly. But now Eric and Keith, they do have some design experience, but really not the manufacturing experience that Stern does. And that's really where Stern is winning right now. Stern is winning on being able to manufacture a competitively priced game. I guarantee that if Keith Elwin were designing with Jersey Jack or anybody else, that Avengers would have been $12,000. Yeah, but they have different pricing models entirely as well. I mean, Keith and Eric both have – like they've gone down and worked with people on the line. They actually know how their lines are set up. So, well, I wouldn't put them to the degree of coordination that a George Gomez would bring. though I could throw that in if you'd like and say, well, why don't we have Robert hire George too? I guess my point being with all of it though, is, is it, I don't think, I think if your game plan is to catch up to Stern and surpass them, that's like maybe three years ago before Keith started making games before, um, Eddie was announced on the team before. I mean, we're, we're just three years ago. It seemed logical. Now it just seems impossible. No, it's not impossible. A manufacturer could come in and outperform, outsell, and outservice Stern Pinball. Okay, Dennis, you are right though. You are right that the key to this would be hiring someone like George Gomez who can actually run the manufacturing side. Yeah, I just wanted to explore the idea of – I mean there's a difference between saying it's impossible because the market share of Stern is insurmountable to overcome. or it's just too difficult for a company like Deep Root to home grow their way to that. But what if they bought their way to that? And but I think Zach's right. I mean, it was a generation ago, almost two at this point in the you know, and I sorry, bringing up the video game side of things. But in the West, the Xbox 360 was outperforming the PS3 and the tides turned and PS4, Sony's flagship console, beat the Xbox one in the current generation. and that's been the big question about this new generation is will the xbox series x be able to to pass sony once more and could they in their case they're sizable enough that maybe they could home grow it but you know in the good news for those of us on the video game side today microsoft instead was like no we're gonna buy our way to victory and they just bought xenomax so now they own the companies that make doom and fallout and wolfenstein it's like they're ours now because we have money and you know buy your victory yeah it's true but the problem with your analogy is is xbox already had a well-established project or product in the original xbox and then the 360 they improved upon that and then they've they've got some history there the problem with deep root is is nothing's come out the doors yet right and actually josh i agree with you i think give you if they hired george elwyn and eric they still wouldn't catch stern i agree yeah but i thought it would be a fun what if are you saying i agree with the dream cast right now yeah yeah right well i mean they're i mean at this point and with me knowing basically nothing about deep root uh i haven't communicated with robert directly in probably over a year uh here's what i would do if i were i were them they need to get production going who needs to have their line busy american pinball you know work something out well guys we've been doing this for an hour and a half now let's do some final thoughts and let's let's wrap this up now i think scott is part of our final thoughts he wanted to explore some he was having some selling issues and i worry for him you know what we we can talk about it later but i i do want i need i need advice on the best way to actually sell a pinball machine i am i am a notorious hoarder with a lot of things i actually We have about 90 old NES games, and they still play because I bought a refurbished console. And so I have all these ways of holding on to those. Now, I can hold on to 90 NES games, but I cannot hold on to 90 pinball machines because my wife would divorce me. So I need to figure out – there's three machines that I have that I actually need to sell, and I need advice on the best way of moving them. Well, what do you – hold up. This is an easy fix. What are you struggling with? Calling or what? Okay. So I actually need more of like a, okay, if you're going to sell a game, these are the steps you take. You take pictures. You move it, all that kind of stuff. You list it this way. You list it this price range, anticipating you're going to get this. I just hate the whole haggling of it. That is my Achilles heel. Oh, that's my favorite part. I get probably – Can I ship them to you? Can I just ship three machines to you and sell them for me? You take trade ends at flipping out pinball. No, I have usually about three people a day sending me pictures and wanting me to give them assessment on how much they should. Yeah, that doesn't get old. I'm sure I love it. Keep sending. Yeah, you love it. Yeah. And they're like, I'm going to coin taker and buy a new one after I sell this game. But the one thing I tell them is. When do you want this to sell? That's the number one thing you have to ask yourself. When would you like this game to sell? It sounds like a stupid question, but if you need it to sell by this week, I'd give you a price. If you're not really in a rush to sell it, but you need to get rid of it, I'd give you a different price. Pricing is a big part of it. The other thing is exposure of where you're putting it. Putting it both on Pinside and Facebook is going to be a good idea. Other limitations of shipping, are you willing to ship it? that's going to market a lot of limitations in who's going to be looking at this game. And believe it or not, one of the most simple things that people are the worst at is just taking good pictures. You can get $30,000 to $40,000 more out of a typical average home based on the cheap iPhone pictures that you're taking. That's a fact. So take really nice, clear, take the glass off, take nice pictures, and you should be fine. And also list out every single thing that's on that pinball machine. Anything additional. And here's the expert thing. For some reason, people don't know. The nicer stuff that you've added to this game, put it on top. Because you only get a couple seconds of somebody seeing this thing to see if they're interested or not. They're going to look at the first big picture. They're going to look at the price tag. And that's going to determine whether or not they want to look further. So make sure in your main big item description, instead of just putting Metallica Pro, if it's got mods and stuff, you put Metallica Pro with extras. Boom. What are those extras? I want to see. It looks like the right price, but if he's got extras, that's even better. So you've got to engage people to get in there to buy that. The longer a pen sits on the market, listener, the more people think there's something wrong with it. That is a guarantee. It's better to price it lower to get it quicker than it is continually reducing the price. As you continue to reduce that price, people are going to think there's something wrong with it. Now, there's probably nothing wrong with it, but it's a subconscious kind of thing. Oh, that's been sitting forever. I think it's overpriced or something's wrong. Don't do that. Look at the comps on Pennside. See what they've sold for before. If you want to get rid of it, you make plenty of money. You're collecting pinball machines. Just take $200 off of it and get rid of the damn thing. Agreed. That's fair. Sorry. That was any help there, but. No, no, it actually is help. I just need to get off my butt and do it. It's that, you know, that saying, if you get up in the morning and have a frog, you eat it first thing because that's like you get that out of the way and so you just move on. That's my frog that I just need to eat. It's a weird analogy, but it's true. The other thing, I don't want to forget this and undercut it, but engage in people making comments. Because there's now a rhythm on Facebook or whatever. Every time you comment on somebody's comment, boom, it's going to kind of bump it back up to the top. Same thing with Pinside. If that sucker, you don't use the forum discussion on Pinside. You open yourself up by using it. So be careful not to overprice your pin. But if you do that forum option, then every time somebody makes a comment, boom, it jumps up to the forum. If you don't do that, it's going to get lost by somebody specifically searching for that machine. Use bold text sometimes, maybe even an asterisk or two to really draw attention to it. These are some of the free things that you can do without thrifty nickel, you know, paying extra money. They put it in blue or something. Yeah. Okay. All right. Oh, you know what? I think everybody needs to consider Scott Larson's games. Buy, buy, buy! That's what I think. Nice, nice. and don't panic if it doesn't sell the first day either. I mean, I don't know why I get this mentality. I freak out if it doesn't sell in the first two days. And then all of a sudden there's a horde of people that are on my doorstep that want to buy the same machine all at the same time. So that's right. And when somebody contacts you to ask about it and they're like, Oh, well, can I get it next week? Or can you ship it? Like use that as an advantage as a sales advantage to like, if somebody has contacted you and is thinking about it, say, yes, I'd be happy. I'd be happy to let you come see it or if you want to buy it that's fine but I do have I do have somebody you know interested in it looking at it so a quicker response would be better then psychologically they're like oh crap if I want this I gotta you know poo or get off the pot here and it's it's just different sales techniques I guess yeah got it and and one advice to the buyer don't message someone a thousand dollars less than what they're asking and then turn around and told him that you just bought that machine not even six months ago and sold it for twice what you're asking for. That's weird. Yeah. I had a gentleman that said he'll buy my Flintstones for two grand, even though I was asking three. And when I told him, no, thank you. He then proceeded to tell me he sold one for six grand. That's right. So, uh, Flintstones, kind of weird. Well, where can we find you guys? Where can we find you, Dennis? Well, uh, separate from Zach, I'm over with Eclectic Gamers Podcast, which is at eclecticgamers.com. If people want to go and check out any of those episodes, we cover pinball and video games. So hence where my video game references come from. So I do that with my co-host, Tony Krakowski. And then Zach has the details for the Pinball Network, where we both do the pinball show on Mondays. Yeah. The Pinball Network is a cavalcade of different content providers and pinball. Dennis and I specifically do a podcast called The Pinball Show. You can reach us there via email at thepinballnetwork at gmail.com. Or if you like any of the other podcasts, they might have their own email or Facebook page. But certainly, if you email pinballnetwork at gmail.com, you can reach them. We will pass that along that way. You can also check us out on Facebook, on Instagram, on the Twitter, on the Twitch, twitch.tv slash pinballnetwork. What else? to YouTube, I guess. There's all kinds of little things. And if you're, look, I've got to say it, if you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine, you guys know the routine. I want to know if anybody knows my number by heart. Now let's say it all together. Listener, it's 812-457-97. I think they did say one, one. That's right. I'm not going to lie. I never call your cell phone number. It's always Facebook messenger for me. Yeah. The quickest, quickest response as a message, an email, a text, because I'm Chatty Cathy. Every time somebody calls me and I have time to pick up, it's like 45 minutes that's gone. This is true. Don't ever call, Zach. I still do not know how you do it. I've told you this before behind the scenes, Zach. I really do not know how. You do your day job. You've got Flip N Out Pinball. You've got the Pinball Network. And I know that people are helping with this, and maybe I'm giving you a little too much credit. I don't know. But you do a lot in this hobby. I appreciate it. No, it's my wife. She does a heck of a lot of it. So everybody's got these multiple roles in their lives. It's just some of my multiple roles are shared more so by my soulmate and Nicole. I still – I overdo it a lot, and the people that are the closest to me will tell you, like Dennis, that there are some negative things associated with me because I do as much as I can. So I'm late to things sometimes. I don't get back. I mean, there's things. So nothing special about me. Well, and obviously, Dennis is the sweetheart of the pinball community. Everybody loves Dennis. Everyone does. Well, if you want to find us, we are at – where are we? Crap. If you want to find us, we're at Loser Kid Pinball on Facebook and on Instagram and on Twitter. if you want to email us it's loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com we are more than happy to hear from you uh with scott leaving a little early we i i i should not left at last moment i know guys you keep contacting us about the contest we have picked a winner we are going to get those swag bags out but with scott being gone i don't want to say who has won so we will save that for the next episode i know everyone's on the edge of their seats so but thank you thank you for tuning in thank you dennis and zach for joining us i feel bad like i said i still feel bad we could win another hour just disgusting this and it and yeah i don't think the listeners would appreciate that nope not one time i'm talking about rosa yeah until sunday but thanks again for coming on guys yeah well thank you for having us happy to do it All right. Sorry. This has been a really wonky episode. I do apologize. I don't know if it's because there was no show notes or just Scott's boisterous – yeah, holy cow. Scott was the Batman of this episode. Yes, he definitely was. I swear to me, where are the other Deep Roots going? Show me your pen. Where is she? I'm going to show you the difference between a pinball that works and a pinball that never gets revealed. Calm down there, Scotty. Dr. Phil, you don't belong in Gotham. You need some anger management hanging with Mr. Cooper. My parents are dead. Oh, my God. That's rude. I can do it. See, I can't do the cool voices like Dr. Phil and whatnot. Neither can I. That's what makes them fun. Oh, my goodness. Oh, Wazowski. Oh, not Wazowski. Sorry. Ross from Monsters Incorporated. Okay. Was he the big furry one? No. You ready for this? You ready for this? I haven't done this on air yet. Wazowski, you forgot to file your paperwork. Don't let it happen again. That's actually really, really good. Okay. I remember now. I remember the character now. That is really good. Dennis doesn't mean Mr. Henke Howdy ho, friends Hey, Mr. Henke Hey, Josh, you smell like flowers Why, thank you, Mr. Henke I'm just here with the spirit of Christmas And not the spirit of deep root Went off the rails when Larson lost his mind Yeah, we weren't coming back from that at all I'm like, well, there goes everything Dennis, our job here is done, buddy I think it'll sound extra, you know, for behind the curtain with all the digital digitization we hear from him. You know, the pure report recording is probably going to sound 80 percent more raged. Oh, it probably is. OK, I got I've got one more voice impersonation for you. All right. Hi, Ohana. Ohana means funny. Funny means no one gets left behind or forgotten. That's good, too. At first I thought you were doing a golem. Yeah. The weirdo on the Star Wars episodes. Which one was that? Like a weird guy in the first three films. R2D2? No, it's the guy with the nose. Hulk 2D2. I don't do it. No, I got one for you. This is Zach when he's going to be old rated for this. Want to come to my basement? You want a popsicle? big strong boy like you like a popsicle only if i'm talking to dennis you wanna you wanna get in my above ground pool you should have seen side note the guys that came over to pick up that brand new black knight premium from stern pinball um i told him i had to go i was like i gotta go i'm in the middle of a podcast and they're like you don't record you're supposed to you record on sundays with dennis I was like, yeah, but we're with Loser Kids. They're like, oh, man, you're with the Loser Kids right now? Oh, I bet that's going to be an awesome episode. When's it going to air? I'm like, I got to go, guys. Because I would have partied with them tonight hadn't it been for this episode. You stole it, and they probably had paid. So you basically robbed Zach. I am so sorry. Do you have an Avengers in there? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, not that we want to come in and play because we haven't yet. But, man, that would have been cool. I'm like, all right, come on in. Come on in. You got to play it. That's awesome. Well, I better wrap this up. Who knows? Well, it's going to make it into the episode. Scott's entire segment is cut. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 86d95cec-4008-4a1f-bb07-59cf8214ae93*