# Cactus Canyon: The Upgrade We've ALL Been Waiting For **Source:** LoserKid YouTube **Type:** video **Published:** 2025-12-31 **Duration:** 64m 36s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpoKCXE5vA8 --- ## Analysis Josh RP and Scott Larson interview Josh Sharpe, the code programmer for Chicago Gaming Company's Cactus Canyon Expanded upgrade kit. They discuss the $1,250 upgrade kit's features—including 10 new modes, a saloon door mechanism with spinner, and enhanced code—and explain how Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharpe transformed the original Williams game from an unfinished product into a competitive, casual-friendly game that rivals Medieval Madness. The conversation covers rule design philosophy, installation challenges, and specific mode mechanics. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] The Cactus Canyon Expanded kit costs $1,250, not $250 — _Josh RP and Scott Larson confirm the price early in the conversation; $250 was a pre-order placeholder_ - [MEDIUM] Lyman Sheets left Stern to start his own consulting business doing gun-for-hire software work — _Josh Sharpe explains the timeline: 'there was kind of a weird crossing of uh Lyman leaving Stern to start his own consulting business doing software for sort of gun for hire business and made a deal'_ - [HIGH] The original Williams Cactus Canyon shipped unfinished because Williams was closing shop and it was their last game before Pinball 2000 — _Josh RP states: 'Williams was basically closing shop... They did as much as they could on the game. It was their last game before Pinball 2000. They were so they kind of pushed it out completely unfinished.'_ - [MEDIUM] Doug (CGC owner) realized Cactus Canyon was expensive due to rarity, not actual game quality ('Emperor has no clothes' game) — _Josh Sharpe explains: 'Doug probably realized oh I uh I should not have sorted the Williams Valley classic list by price... Cactus was really only that expensive because of its rarity and it was sort of an an Emperor has no clothes game there'_ - [HIGH] The upgrade kit includes 10 new modes and 2 enhanced modes, plus new animations and music by Rob Berry — _Josh RP reads from the manual: 'This upgrade includes 10 new modes, two enhanced modes, many new animations, new sound and music by Rob Berry'_ - [HIGH] Installation of the upgrade kit is complex and can cause damage if not done correctly; Josh RP stripped parts by tightening screws from the top instead of by hand first — _Josh RP admits: 'I did talk about my own hiccups on installing the game. I will totally admit that was totally me misinterpreting... I actually stripped two parts on it... by tightening them from the top'_ - [HIGH] The gunfight mode uses a risk-reward mechanic similar to AC/DC's jackpot rule, with multipliers (2x, 3x, 4x) applied as the player builds and banks points — _Josh Sharpe explains: 'it's the AC/DC song jackpot rule... if you finish the mode, you not only earn those points, but they get banked into the next gunfight value... multiplied as you go'_ - [MEDIUM] Joel (from Flipping Out streams/tutorials) believes the upgraded Cactus Canyon surpasses Medieval Madness as a complete fan layout game — _Josh RP states: 'Joel does his flipping out streams... said with the upgrade that he feels this game has has surpassed Medieval Madness for like a complete fan layout game. And and by the way, I totally agree with him'_ ### Notable Quotes > "I would say I was a cog in the wheel that helped to bring it to life. By no means did I..." > — **Josh Sharpe**, early in conversation > _Sharpe deflects credit, indicating collaborative effort on the upgrade kit_ > "Lyman's a crazy and you know when he jumps in he jumps in man you know the the dude was a perfectionist" > — **Josh Sharpe**, mid-conversation > _Characterizes Lyman Sheets' work ethic and creative drive during development_ > "not to be the biggest hypocrite in the world, but like tournament players can go f themselves, guys" > — **Josh Sharpe**, mid-conversation > _Sharpe's philosophy: competitive balance doesn't require 71 different rules, just two viable strategic choices_ > "The essence of a balanced competitive game is I have a ball cradle on the flipper and the game's job is to make me make a choice between more than one option that are both viable strategies" > — **Josh Sharpe**, mid-conversation > _Core design philosophy for rule balance in Cactus Canyon_ > "What's the coolest part of this game?... We both hold up a flash card and we both say, 'Gunfight'" > — **Josh Sharpe**, mid-conversation > _Explains how Sharpe and Sheets identified the gunfight mode as the centerpiece of the upgrade_ > "It really does take so much time of playing and putting yourself into these situations while you're playing to analyze the situation. It's so hard to do that on a spreadsheet" > — **Josh Sharpe**, mid-conversation > _Emphasizes playtesting and iterative refinement over theoretical design_ > "Do you like your your three scoop Sunday? Because this fourth scoop's freaking huge. It's always out." > — **Josh Sharpe**, discussing gunfight risk-reward > _Metaphorical explanation of the escalating risk-reward multiplier system in gunfight mode_ > "Lord knows with with CGC, the one thing you do have is time. and the ability to have enough time to get it right" > — **Josh Sharpe**, discussing development process > _Notes that CGC's business model allows extended development cycles, unlike major manufacturers_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Josh Sharpe | person | Code programmer for Chicago Gaming Company's Cactus Canyon Expanded upgrade kit; worked with Lyman Sheets on rule design, playtesting, and code development | | Josh RP | person | Host of LoserKid pinball podcast; collector and casual player discussing the upgrade kit with Sharpe | | Scott Larson | person | Co-host of LoserKid pinball podcast; has two Cactus Canyon Expanded kits (one from Zach Nicole Mini, one test kit from CGC) | | Lyman Sheets | person | Legendary pinball designer; left Stern to start consulting business; co-developed Cactus Canyon upgrade with Josh Sharpe; perfectionist perfectionist designer | | Chicago Gaming Company | company | Manufacturer of the Cactus Canyon remake and Expanded upgrade kit; owned by Doug; released base version and now expanded version | | Zach Nicole Mini | person | Operator of Flipping Out Pinball; distributor of Cactus Canyon Expanded upgrade kits | | Doug | person | Owner of Chicago Gaming Company; decided to pursue Cactus Canyon remake and later hired Sharpe and Sheets to upgrade the game | | Cactus Canyon | game | Original 1998 Williams/Bally game; remade by CGC; subject of $1,250 Expanded upgrade kit with 10 new modes, saloon mech, and new code | | Cactus Canyon Expanded | product | Hardware and software upgrade kit costing $1,250; includes 10 new modes, saloon door mechanism with spinner, enhanced code, music by Rob Berry | | Rob Berry | person | Composer of new music and sound for Cactus Canyon Expanded upgrade kit | | Joel | person | Content creator; hosts Flipping Out streams and created installation tutorial for Cactus Canyon Expanded; claims upgraded game surpasses Medieval Madness | | Williams | company | Original manufacturer of Cactus Canyon (1998); closed shop after Pinball 2000, shipped game unfinished | | Stern Pinball | company | Former employer of Lyman Sheets before he started consulting business | | Medieval Madness | game | Classic Lyman Sheets design; used as benchmark for game quality; Cactus Canyon Expanded reportedly now rivals or surpasses it | | LoserKid pinball podcast | organization | Podcast hosted by Josh RP and Scott Larson; this episode features extended interview with Josh Sharpe about Cactus Canyon Expanded | | Cactus Canyon Continued | product | Fan-made homebrew code modification for original Cactus Canyon; attempted to complete the unfinished original game before CGC hired Sharpe and Sheets | | AC/DC | game | Stern pinball game; Cactus Canyon Expanded's gunfight mode borrows risk-reward jackpot mechanics from AC/DC's ruleset | | Monster Bash | game | CGC remake project that was put on hold when Sharpe and Sheets were asked to prioritize Cactus Canyon Expanded upgrade | | Penny | person | Playtester for Cactus Canyon Expanded; participated in Wednesday night play sessions with Sharpe and Sheets | | Wizard of Oz | game | Pinball game referenced as comparison for ball save mechanics (Safe Toto); influences design philosophy | | Godzilla | game | Pinball game referenced as comparison for ball save mechanics; influences design philosophy | | Pinball 2000 | product | Platform/generation; Williams' final system before closure; Cactus Canyon was the last game released on it | | Flipping Out Pinball | venue/organization | Operation run by Zach Nicole Mini and Joel; distributor and content creator for Cactus Canyon Expanded | ### Signals - **[product_launch]** Cactus Canyon Expanded upgrade kit officially released at $1,250 price point; includes 10 new modes, saloon door mechanism with spinner, and new music/code (confidence: high) — Josh Sharpe appears on podcast to discuss finished product; Scott Larson has two kits in hand; clear pricing and feature set communicated - **[gameplay_signal]** Upgrade transforms shallow original game into depth-rich experience with sophisticated risk-reward mechanics (gunfight mode), multiple modes with interdependencies, and competitive viability (confidence: high) — Detailed discussion of gunfight mode multiplier system, mode banking, showdown multiball, rank progression, ball save qualification; comparison to Medieval Madness as peer - **[product_concern]** Upgrade kit has complex installation requiring electrical/mechanical work; risk of component damage if not done correctly; community experiencing electrical interference issues on Pinside forums (confidence: high) — Josh RP admits to stripping two parts due to improper tightening technique; mentions 'every pinside post with someone having electrical interference issues'; describes installation as non-trivial engineering - **[design_philosophy]** Sharpe and Sheets designed upgrade to appeal simultaneously to casual players (quick 60-second hook, story clarity) and competitive depth-seekers (multiple viable strategies, risk-reward mechanics, scoring nuance) (confidence: high) — Sharpe explains: 'We got 60 seconds... make you laugh... and for those hooked on depth... we got you because Lyman and I still want to be challenged'; explicit discussion of merging '90s charm with modern complexity - **[design_innovation]** Saloon door mechanism with spinner switch creates new shot interaction; integrated with code to gate access to multiple modes and serve as central mechanical feature (confidence: high) — Multiple references to saloon door as state-change mechanic; spinner used for saloon fight mode engagement; Josh Sharpe notes hardware engineering challenges of integrating mechanism with electrical systems - **[personnel_signal]** Lyman Sheets departed Stern to establish independent software consulting business; negotiated to work on CGC projects (Monster Bash initially, then pivoted to Cactus Canyon) (confidence: medium) — Sharpe explains: 'Lyman leaving Stern to start his own consulting business doing software for sort of gun for hire business and made a deal... to do an update for Monster Bash' - **[industry_signal]** CGC (smaller manufacturer) willing to significantly delay/halt other projects (Monster Bash) to improve quality of flagship remake; iterative, playtesting-heavy development cycle enabled by different business model than mass manufacturers (confidence: medium) — Sharpe: 'Doug probably realized oh I... sorted by price when deciding on remakes... should have sorted by quality'; Monster Bash put on hold; 'one thing you do have is time... to get it right' - **[code_update]** Cactus Canyon Expanded represents substantial ruleset rewrite from original Williams code; includes 10 entirely new modes, 2 enhanced existing modes, new animations, sound design by Rob Berry (confidence: high) — Manual states '10 new modes, two enhanced modes, many new animations, new sound and music by Rob Berry'; Sharpe and Sheets spent years in iterative playtesting and refinement - **[market_signal]** $1,250 price point positioned as 'under the price of a typical topper' while delivering substantial functional and gameplay upgrades; targets existing owner base rather than new buyers (confidence: high) — Josh RP: 'It's basically under the price of a typical topper. And so that that's actually a really good thing uh that adds functionality' - **[sentiment_shift]** Cactus Canyon transformed from 'Emperor has no clothes' overpriced oddity into legitimate competitor to classic Lyman Sheets designs like Medieval Madness (confidence: high) — Joel claim that upgraded game 'surpassed Medieval Madness'; Josh RP: 'I didn't think that this update would tra would drastically change the product of of Cactus Canyon as much as it truly did' - **[competitive_signal]** Sharpe articulates deliberate design constraint: reject complexity for complexity's sake; tournament-grade balance requires two viable strategic choices with trade-offs, not 71 rule combinations (confidence: high) — Sharpe: 'tournament players can go f themselves... don't need 71 things... You need two things. I need you to question where you want to go... both viable strategies' - **[content_signal]** LoserKid podcast secures direct interview with Josh Sharpe for deep-dive technical discussion of upgrade kit; suggests significant community interest and Sharpe's media availability (confidence: high) — Josh Sharpe present for extended interview; detailed technical breakdown of all modes and mechanics; collaborative media strategy between CGC and content creators --- ## Transcript [Music] Thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast. I am Josh RP with me my co- captain Scott Larson and Scott we are going to be talking about the Cactus Canyon expanded kit today. If you want one of these kits, where did you buy yours from? Uh so well thankfully I got two of them. one I got through Zack Nicole Mini a flipping out pinball and I got that and because u actually Chicago gaming company was very nice to send me a test kit and so I actually got one from them but uh Zach and Nicole Mini can hook you up with that and you can hook it up to your game and totally transform your game. So definitely reach out to them. Zach Nicole Mini Flipping Out Pinball and we learned that it's not 250 bucks. It's it's Yeah, it's Yeah, that was a pre-order number on the website. Yes, that that was the secure spot number. But yes, it is it is $1250. It's basically under the price of a typical topper. And so that that's actually a really good thing uh that adds functionality and it adds a totally different experience to a game. And we're going to talk about that today. Yep. So, and the person that brought this to life is with us today, Mr. Josh Sharpe. How are you doing today, Josh? I'm good, boys. I'm good. I would say I was a cog in the wheel that helped to bring it to life. By no means did did I uh Okay. You were basically as some of the other people on the team, but what what made you was this like originally in the game plan for Cactus Canyon in the original Williams and you were like, "We need to make this." What What brought this you guys decide to push it? this uh there was kind of a weird crossing of uh Lyman leaving Stern to start his own consulting business doing software for sort of gun for hire business and made a deal. He he had talked to me about uh making a deal with Chicago Gaming to do an update for Monster Bash. signed on to agree to do that and had asked me to help him in that development and we started down our merry way of working on a monster bash update. I think I don't know I can't remember timing wise cuz now it's like 5 years ago or whatever but somewhere along the line you know Lyman and I are both aware that Doug was making the Cactus remake and I think there was a point in time where where Doug probably realized oh I uh I should not have sorted the Williams Valley classic list by price when deciding on what remakes to do. I probably should have sorted it by quality of game and realized that, you know, Cactus was really only that expensive because of its rarity and it was sort of an an Emperor has no clothes game there. You know, there wasn't a whole lot there. So, I know that uh there were plans from the CGC side to cobble it together and finish what the CGC version of the game was. And uh Doug had reached out to Lyman and myself about putting the Monsterbats project on hold. And I didn't realize how insert bad word cactus is as far as a game. Would you guys be willing to step in and help our team get this to some level of quality that can match what we've done with, you know, what our customers have expected out of Medieval and all the other Lyman games that that Doug had been selling for years at that point. And so Lyman and I had a you know we we sort of had kind and we were talking every day at this point for Monster Bash that uh you know had some ideas of like I think there we could do something here to help and agreed to put the Bash update on hold and jump in to try to take Cactus to whatever level we could to make it the best game we could with the constraints that we had as part of that development. Now, with the when they announced it, now there's there's been many versions of this code. So, there's the original one and we all know that Williams was basically closing shop. And so, they they did as much as they could on the game. It was their last game before Pinball 2000. They were so they kind of pushed it out completely unfinished. And if you've played a an original, you definitely know how bare bones that code really is. Yeah. Um, there were other attempts. There was like a Cactus Canyon continued, you know, so a homebrew type project. Now, you guys also released some version of an updated version for Chicago Gaming Company when when this came came out originally. Like it did have it did have some things, but it wasn't the full project, but you had to have something that was better than the original, but not quite the full fleshed out version. Am I am I catching that story right? Yes. So worthy of what Chicago Gaming could have released and what they did release for the what what we would call their base game. Sure. But Lyman's a crazy and you know when he jumps in he jumps in man you know the the dude was a perfectionist and you know once being a part of that creative process with him and being able to sort of talk about all the things that he wanted to do not only software-wise but he had like hardware-wise trying to get the saloon mech back in he came up with the idea for the lock sign you know all this stuff of just like we could do anything we And part of the plan that we ended up pitching Doug was, hey, you know, we have this sort of 12 course menu that by the end of the work we want to do is where we want it to be and we sort of picked a line in the stance of and I still have our our Google doc that we were working with, but you know, at what point should something be a part of the base game and at what point would this be added content that customers would not expect. And I think, you know, we drew that line based off of sort of if you did play the original game and you realized how much stuff was not in there, it became pretty clear for our road map of like like this really should have been in the Williams game. You know, it goes over in this column. You know, this whole idea for the saloon mech integration, that's a part of the update. There's no way a customer buying cactus would have expected this thing to be in their product. So we sort of the outline for the work was all of it and then sort of it was just placing it in buckets of like is this going to be part of the release game or part of the extended kit. Okay. So the the one thing I I I do have and I will fully admit by the way that I did talk about my own hiccups on installing the game. I will totally admit that was totally me misinterpreting what I was supposed to do because I was I actually stripped two parts on it, but it was because I was trying to install it um in in a I guess in a different way. So, the one the one recommendation I would have is when you're putting it in, just tighten the back setbacks. They're the little posts that look like hex things. just tighten those by hand and then tighten them from the side, not on the top. By me trying to do it from the top, that's how I actually stripped a switch on there. It's uh it's it's hard. I mean, there and that was a part of sort of coming up with the the idea when Lyman was throwing out sort of the hardware and it was like are customers installing this themsel you ask all the questions that you should ask which is like I mean these people don't know how to take open a coin door or take the glass off. They're gonna be installing mechs that and for me I was sort of I'm I'm the idiot of the group of just like you want me to take this thing and I'm cutting wires off and I'm putting like are you crazy? How is this going to work? And that was part of like the c the CGC engineering side of just like how do we make that it's going to be challenging you know that we we did too much in terms of of changing the game that there were going to be challenges. This is not a, you know, add something to a post and be done. And it's decorative and there's one wire that gets power for light. I mean, the functionality for that saloon mech is is some serious engineering business. And uh yeah, it I see it with every pinside post with someone that's having, you know, I'm learning far more about electrical interference than I probably ever wish I needed to in my life. It actually was when I look at it, it actually now that I know a lot more about it when I go over to my friend's house that's going to install his update. I bet we can knock it out in probably 90 minutes, which is good. And and the thing is you learn anybody who's worked on their machines know that you kind of it it's it's a little bit of a when I'm working on a machine a lot of times after I finish the project, it probably took three times longer than I should have, but I learned something from it. And you know, it's the same thing anytime the the first timer is learning how to take the glass off, lift the playfield, you know, rebuild a flipper mechanism. And so these things are this is just part of the the pinball experience. But I actually did have kind of a blast putting it all in. And the finished product really did take this game to a new level. And we we've talked a little about behind the scenes uh with Joel from uh you know, and Joel does his flipping out streams. He also did a tutorial on this and install and he said with the upgrade that he feels this game has has surpassed Medieval Madness for like a complete fan layout game. And and by the way, I totally agree with him because I didn't think that this update would tra would drastically change the product of of Cactus Canyon as much as it truly did. And so, you know, can you tell me a little bit more about, okay, how how did you go all out in basically transforming the game by installing um a saloon door, a spinner switch and code? Because it for the casual fan when you buy a pinball machine, other other machines have gone through a similar transformation. And you can think of, you know, things like like Stern's Deadpool when it first came out, it was really panned because the code wasn't really up to snuff. Now, we know that Deadpool is actually a very good game, but because the code has radically changed how the layout is used. So, as a similar process, when you take Cactus Canyon, when you have a basic fan layout that has, you know, seven or eight shots, and then you add a a spinner and a mechanism, but that can radically change how the game feels. So talk about that. I think you know the big thing is realizing and and Lyman was the master at this was so much you know from that era of Lyman games. Lyman became so much better of a programmer and game designer, you know, rules-wise and whatnot. the game had has evolved since that era, but the foundation of what that era represents and what I circle back to and call the Williams charm was trying to find that balance of offering, you know, riskreward was not a huge thing in the '90s. You know, the depth of content not a huge thing in in the 90s. I feel like the the Williams, you know, that is a huge part of the content today. And I feel like what has been lost today is that 3 minutes to charm you experience that kind of no longer applies because it doesn't matter cuz people are playing in their basement and they need 65 minutes of stuff. They don't. They need the same experience that hooked them in pinball originally with those additional layers of onions that you can unwrap. And I feel like that's where with Cactus, we were able to sort of merge both worlds in a way that makes it a very unique product. It can stand up to games of the '90s, being able to present casual players and people that can fall in love with pinball for the first time. We're going to grab you in 60 seconds and make you laugh, make you feel something, make you advance the story in a way that you understand what's going on. And for those that are hooked on depth of content and breath of content, we got you because Lyman and I are still those players today that also want to be challenged in that way with the game. So when you are creating a rule set and stuff like that, are you I mean obviously you you do tournaments occasionally are you are you taking that into account as well because there's there's a lot of I mean like you said there's a lot of depth to these modern games and so where do you where do you find the fine balance between the the threeinut experience? I feel like the, you know, not to be the biggest hypocrite in the world, but like tournament players can go f themselves, guys. And what I mean by that really is it doesn't take much to satisfy it seems like it takes a lot to satisfy that group in terms of like 71 different things to do and combinations that you could do frontwards and backwards and sideways and fourways and whatever. And it's really not like for me the essence of a balanced competitive game is I have a ball cradle on the flipper and the game's job is to make me make a choice between more than one option that are both viable strategies. You don't need 71 things. You need two things. I need you to question where you want to go. And there's if you choose to shoot whatever on the left, here's the pros of what you're going to get and here's the consequences of what you're not going to get by avoiding the shot on the right. I feel like it's like let's make a deal. Door number one or door number two both come with great things. You're going to be missing out on the thing you don't pick. You're going to enjoy the things that you do pick. And it's really that it's that simple to hook tournament people because you just need and that was you know big part of of the score balancing and stuff with lineman and I play testing the crap out of this thing is you know you have a ball in the flipper and it's like why you know why didn't you shoot that you know I don't think it's worth enough blah and we just organically you play and you talk through it and because we're we would play against each other Penny would come over we'd play every week Wednesday night was play night with whatever the latest code was And it's like, what if I make the value this? Do you shoot it? No, I don't think so. What about that? And you just start making soup. You know, you turn something up and away and it's like, now I'm intrigued. You know, maybe I do shoot that left ramp, but I I haven't the last three months, but now I'm considering it. And and it just for better or worse, it and Lord knows with with CGC, the one thing you do have is time. and the ability to have enough time to get it right. It really does take so much time of playing and putting yourself into these situations while you're playing to analyze the situation. It's so hard to do that on a spreadsheet of value and just looking at these options on a spreadsheet and saying this should be pretty good. It's never it never ends up that good. So, let's talk about the things that you did at Now, I'm I'm just looking at your uh at the manual. I wonder if I have one. I don't have one here. You'll have to rope me. No, no, it's okay. I I I'm reading from it for you, so don't worry about it. So, it says, "This upgrade includes 10 new modes, two enhanced modes, many new animations, new sound and music by Rob Berry, never before heard original sounds, a saloon mechanism spinner, and and so, okay, so I want to go through the modes and tell me it tell me how these uh because that's actually crazy when you think about it because most people will buy some sort of mod or some sort of topper And the big selling thing right now is the topper is you get a random exclusive mode that you're not going to use. Okay, that's the big selling thing with with you know some some plastics. And by the way, I'm a total sucker for uh for toppers. I I have them on every game except for Iron Maiden. If someone has kneeup topper, let me know. Um but okay, so I'm going to start going through and I want you to tell me about how the modes are changed. So, first off, you have a skill shot. Hurry up. Mhm. And so, and and I know about it. So, basically, you pull it. It's part of that of that rotisserie thing in the, you know, in that little spinny thing that it's going through. And if you get it, you have to shoot the left orbit. Right. Very good. I actually, this is perfect. If you should be able to talk through these, which would let me know that like we did a decent job at making this understandable for you. So, like I will course correct as you go, but I'm just gonna sit in awe of your ability to explain this. Which, by the way, if anybody knows about my understanding of rules, this is impressive that I've been able to pick up on all this because I am your typical dumb collector that flips at home. Yeah. You know what though? You you are you're you're the rule. You're not the exception. You know, the the tournament savant people, those people are the exceptions, man. They're crazy. when I'm talking to tournament people and they're like, "Hey, here here's all the five ways you can approach him." I'm like, "I I don't know any of that." Okay. All right. So So I got that right. So I I got I got the hurry up. Okay. Then you have Bellabart. Now Bellabart's been on the back glass before, but there there was no there there was no confrontation with Bella in the past. Did Did I get that right? Correct. Or Okay. And so now she's just added to one of the one of the people you're interacting with when you're shooting up the saloon. Part of the gang. So you shoot the saloon door. And by the way, so so someone who doesn't look at the mechanism closely, you actually have uh a spinner that uh opens up. And so you know, it's a it's a state change. So you shoot that and then it opens the saloon door and then you shoot it in. Okay. So she has been added to the cast of characters that you're fighting, right? Y. Okay. And so next you have the saloon fight. So now you have this and so I'm reading off this. It's you hit the spinner. So this is how you engage the saloon fight. You keep hitting that spinner which is by the way a really hefty spinner and you shoot that. It's the the skill. It's uh the marksman shot. And so you get that and you spin it and it spins up enough and then once it gets to a point then it's a isn't it a timed mode where it's like you have a certain amount of time to to build up the jackpot and then cash out the jackpot with the mo with the bear shot, right? The bear shot, dude. Okay, rock. Look at that. Okay, now we have the gunfight. So th this is actually interesting because I'm not sure I fully understand this yet, but I'm I'm getting it. So you have this is definitely the most I mean this was the first rule that we came up with and by far the most modern riskreward take of a '9s game that we have ever done. So So it's ball specific, right? And so what you're doing is you're trying to build up the jackpot. Now I I'm not quite sure is it just switch hits that you're hitting to build up the jackpot? Uh because you build it enough those familiar with a Lyman borrowed from himself. Okay, it for better or worse, it's the AC/DC song jackpot rule. Okay, slightly modified. So, okay, you have this gunfight situation which Lyman and I, you know, it was uh the first question we asked ourselves when we started on the project was, "What's the coolest part of this game?" You you write down your answer, Josh, and I'll write down mine. And it's like, okay, live it. I got it. and he's like, "I got it, too." And we both, you know, hold up a flash card and we both say, "Gunfight." Because, you know, the the drama it creates in that moment is just even in the Bass Williams game was like, "Oh, these guys had something here. This was really a cool moment. How do we make this moment the most important thing this game has to offer scoring-wise and whatnot?" And so that was sort of the tree trunk to the biggest change we were going to make in the game because scoring wise, gunfight was kind of a throwaway mode in the original game. Well, it's a danger mode, too. I mean, half of those shots are are brick shots that you're that you have to rescue because there's four different opt. And that's actually one thing that's cool. You don't know which of the four options is going to be. That's right. So, you have the what is it? Five shot modes. Y those shot trees. Mhm. The points if the points you earn in that mode, if you finish the mode, you not only earn those points, but they get banked into the next gunfight value. If you beat a BART, the points you earn from beating the BART gets banked into the gunfight value. You can continue. It is I mean it is riskreward at its most primal, right? You can cash out anytime you want. You can toggle the inlanes to start the gunfight when you want or press your luck for every additional mode or BART you beat, the contribution of those points get multiplied as you go. So finish a mode, those points get banked. Defeat a Bart, those BART points get banked at 2x. Finish another mode, those mode points get banked at 3x. Defeat another BART, those BART points get banked at 4x. So, there's always this next I don't know. Do you like your your three scoop Sunday? Because this fourth scoop's freaking huge. It's always out. The next one is always so much bigger. You're left balancing. Do I push it or do I cash out? Okay, here's my question. Josh, you are an elite player. What do What is your strategy like? How many how many scoops on the Sunday do you typically go for? I'm curious. So, I am uh there's two things I really focus on, which is I try to never do the gunfight from the left flipper because number three, and I hate it. It's always number three, the target that comes up. I find that it's much easier from the right flipper, but for me, and sometimes it's tough to monitor, but I will usually keep going if I am one shot away from another mode starting. So you kind of have to track cuz the inserts, you know, once you start a mode, your insert progress goes out. Yeah. So once you finish a mode, it's like if you can find a way to trap up and it's like, oh, you know, the the Rym cowboy mode is next. Mhm. I'm going to do that at 3x. And then you come out of that and it's like, oh, the marksman mode is ready to go. That's at 4. That's one shot. Bam. Next. I find if I'm like two shots away, it's like h the the idea of like I might get nothing starts to to wayne and and I'll usually bail. Mhm. That that's the uh what is the the Willy Wonka code and you get nothing. Yeah. No, I and I the the one thing that you just subtly uh glazed over is you can actually defer the gunfight mode because you are selecting it with the flippers. So if you don't want to start the gunfight mode, you can actually flip it quickly to the other in lane. And okay, so so that that's definitely the the riskreward on that. Okay. So then we get to the shootout topper mode. Okay. Now I Okay, this one I I've I've been playing this for about a week and I I don't get this all the time. So how how do you engage it? And this is actually because it before the other topper mode was you'd actually have to hold the button and it would it would cycle over until you shot it. And so there's like some light bars up there that tell you exactly where you're aiming. So that was the old top remote. This one is actually just a person pops up and you hit the button and you shoot them. So it's just a a left right. It's a it's a it's a quicker it's a quicker mode. But there's there's a cow in one and there's a girl in the other one and everything else is bad guys. So basically you have a a quick second is like do I shoot left? Do I shoot right? And is that a target? Correct. Um and so how do I engage the topper mode? And and the thing is the girl and the cow, they're always in the same spot. So you just memorize those. You just like, okay, don't don't shoot them. It's amazing how often they'll still get you. Yeah. But well I shoot them all the time. I'm still again terrible, but okay. So, tell me how to engage the the topper mode, the topper shootout. It is one of the beer mug awards that are on that that train of awards that are I think I think shootout 2 is first because that is the new content version for anyone that has the update, which in our notes is the uh Dracula video mode done in topper form. And then the original one that shipped with the base game, which is shootout one, isn't that was 20 bear shop modes. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, it it was like it was actually a lot. You had to try the awards, you know, depending on if you have extra balls on or not, you know, the award tree hits at different times if you have like extras available or not at any given time. Okay. Yeah. And and that's actually qu for a second. I got a little tripped up because I was expecting the hold the like hold the button to get the uh you know to to track that that shot thing. So that that was a little recalibration of my brain that it was just a quick quick tap. Okay, now you have showdown. So um you hit all of it. Now this is this is where I I haven't played it enough to figure this out. So, is this just you hit enough of the of the Barts until you get to uh is is that where it is? Or may maybe you can explain it a lot better cuz I keep going through the BART modes and I get a little hung up on like a bionic bart or or that one. And so, tell me more about the showdown. So, showdown is your multiball that's related to quick draws. So, your targets on the side will spot those glowy orange spot targets will light your corresponding in lane. It'll pop up a target. The targets are so fun. They're used for multiple purposes, which is confusing, but it's uh you know, part of our frustration in trying to solve this puzzle is is having these things lit for different things. But the uh short answer is finish a quick draw on all four targets and you will reach showdown multiball. Okay. And and that's the one where all of them pop up and you got to you got to clear them. You have to clear them. Okay. Yeah. I I've done that. I've done that multiple time. And then if you clear them, don't you get another ball added. So yes. And so so it keeps getting harder because you have to clear them. you keep getting more balls added, but it's pretty hard to keep all the balls to track all the balls once you get more and more balls. So, you have to clear you get three balls is the max. So, you have to clear all the targets and then the jackpot inserts will light on the five main shots. You actually have to hit one of those shots to add a ball. And if the next time you're playing or someone else is playing this multiball at at your place, you can watch the topper will have the bad guys pro, you know, you as you make progress shooting the jackpot shots, you're defeating bad boss's gang members, okay? As you're progressing in that multiball. So you'll see, you know, once you hit all four drops and the jackpots are lit, you'll see a bad guy flashing on the topper. Hit a jackpot shot and you'll see a red X go over that person. Clear the four drops again. You'll see bad guy number two on the topper start flashing. Hit one of the remaining jackpot shots. Bam. Red X on that guy. And you got to progress through all of them until you can get to the uh the end which is at the saloon. The saloon shot is the super after you clear clear the deck of all the bad guys. It's pretty it's it's the hardest thing to do to reach high noon now. Okay. So that would be six. That's six bad guys and two good guys up there, right? Did I count that right? Yeah. Ignore the good guys. They're not used. Okay. So So you have So you have to do that six times and then shoot the salute. Wow. Yeah. Now you do get to uh it saves your progress. So if you do four guys the first time, you get back into that multiball. Oh, okay. Clear the clear the drop targets. You'll have the remaining number of jackpots available. That's only two. You'll only have those two left and you'll be on bad guy number five. Okay. Actually, that that's good to know because I I have Okay. The problem is with multiball as everybody who's playing never looks up because they're just trying to keep, you know, their eyes down. So, that could be that could be a good thing if you're playing with a buddy that they can shout out how many you have. You should hopefully the inserts on the playfield will also, you know, when when you go to try to shoot a jackpot shot and you notice, oh man, only the marksman shot is lit, you're getting pretty close. Oh, okay. So, as you shoot the jackpot shots, they are those shots are eliminated from Okay. Okay. Well, that All right, that's good to know. Uh, okay. Gunfight ball save. I find this awesome. Th this is this is so fun because this is a little bit like the you know other games have this. You have like Wizard of Oz where you have like Safe Toto and you have you know Godzilla, you have the oxygen. Yeah. So okay now the thing is I don't know how to qualify it. So I I I'm trying to look at this real quick. So after reaching the rank of deputy Okay. So you have to rank reach a deputy. There you go. Okay. And then you have the uh Okay. So wait hold on. Pop quiz. Scott, how do you how do you advance rank? Uh I'm lucky and I get one of the stars when I plunge. That's one there's two there's two other ways. Okay. One is a one is a bounty award. It can advance your rank and winning a gunfight advances your rank. A a single gunfight. Okay. Yeah. I I have noticed that I have moved upwards in ranks on the new code way faster than I did in the old code. So either I'm a better player or the code is is allowing me the game's helping you. Yeah, I think it take it and run. Okay. No, absolutely. Okay. So once you get to that point and you have the the gunfight ball say now the gunfight ball save, does it um alternate between an outlane or is it only a single out lane? It's only the only insert we had was that left insert that tech like that was one of our puzzle piece puzzle pieces that we needed to solve. We have this we have this insert that says of course it says gunfight cuz it's everything in this game. There's so many different gunfights. Why is this gunfight different? It's red. and and just sort of being able to riff on what can we do here and hearkening back to like the milliondoll shot on Fast Break that uh Mr. Gomez did way back in the day and uh trying to do something fun and charming with that rather than just giving your ball back. Well, the fun thing about this is there are penalty shots. Yeah. So you have So it shoots up all four of the of the the draw the gunfight shots and three of them are red and one of them is green. So if you hit the green one, great, you get your ball back. But if you hit the red ones, they're like, "Ah, you're dead." Yeah. So, I I actually find that fun because it's um it it hearkens a little bit back to uh when I've gone to pinball Olympics before where they have where they have the penalty shot where you you shoot you know they they have the games wired to each other and I when I was on Metallica if you shot uh oh the the I can't remember the the fuel shot the left the left upper shot and you would tilt the other guys. Yeah. So, so I'm surp I'm surprised those guys would be and you actually electrocute your opponent for real. Okay. So, that's the gunfight ball save. Um, does that um can you relight that as or is that like a single? So, that's a single throughout the game you just get that one time. Okay. Now, you have the Franken Beans one. Okay. This one uh is is hilarious for all the kids out there because it's all the fart jokes. So, and that came from uh Cactus Canyon Continued from Mr. Pryky. That was one of the modes that he had in his game. And I had reached out to him early on about and let him know what Lyman and I were doing pretty early on in the in the process. And definitely wanted to make sure that he was cool if there was any any overlapping of stuff that that we thought he did that fit within our universe. you know, what did he think about us being able to borrow some of that stuff and he was super gracious in uh letting us know whatever we wanted to use or reference or whatever was totally cool by him, which was Oh, that Yeah, that that's really great. Okay, so it looks like that you hit enough beer mug shots and then you qualify it at the saloon. So, is there like a certain amount that you hit on the beer mugs and then shoot the saloon or Yeah, it'll be one of, you know, when you hit it and it's like shoot out at 10 or whatever at 15 or whatever at 20, it will be one of those things in the tree where you'll hit the beer mug and it'll say Franks and Beans at 20. Okay. And and then it's just this is a a switch hit mode where you keep you keep doing that and then you build up the jackpot and do you cash out the jackpot? It is. It is just It is just a base level scoring frenzy. Okay. Rip the spinner for many farts in a row. Okay. Then we have drunken multiple. So, okay. I I don't I actually don't even know if I've gotten this one. So, to So, tell me about Oh, your flippers are reversed. So, they are also borrowed from uh Cactus Canyon Continued. Okay. Lyman for a while. He didn't want flippers reversed is so played out guys or what like at this point it wasn't as surprising as I know when when Keith P. Johnson did it on Simpsons I definitely was like oh my god this is insane not you know not quite that level of of dropping a mic but and so Lyman had this idea of well instead of crossing your flippers why don't we do like you're drunk and the flippers are slightly delayed And it just turned out to be a really terrible idea. It just like like it was not fun and it just seemed like the game was broken in some way. Like you were playing video pinball with the lag. Oh jeez. And so that was one of the uh you know sounded interesting written on a piece of paper, not so much in in practice. You're telling me theater of magic video mode isn't what we're attempting for here? Geez. It felt a lot like that. Okay. So, how do you qual So, again, you hit enough beer shots to qualify this mode of the saloon. So, it's just it's it's in that tree. It's in that tree. Okay. Then you got saloon party. I actually don't don't know if I've played this one yet. Okay. So, that is at the back end of once you defeat all the Barts and you're kind of in this state of play where they're all the bad guys are done, what do we do now? You know, and and what you do now is you have a party. There's no there's nobody else that's going to be messing up your world in that saloon. You've taken care of all the bad guys. So, continued hits to the saloon will advance this role. Okay. Now, I the one thing that I Bionic Bart seems like I'm getting to Bionic Bart a lot more in this version than I did in the previous version. Am I getting a better player or is it is it closer in the tree? It's not close. You have one more, you know, with Bella at it. There's one more bad guy to get through. So, you're I'm putting your I'm putting it on your pinball skills, man. Maybe I maybe I'm I'm better than I thought. Yeah. Good time. Okay. So, with But with Bart, the interesting thing is the Bionic Bart. Okay. Walk me through the Bionic Bart because it seems like you hit him and then you have to hit like all the all the jackpots and and there's like increasing amount that I have to hit before I hit the saloon again. Is that like like am I understanding that correctly? Yep. So you hit him to start and then you got to shoot a minimum of one jackpot shot before you can land another punch on him. Yep. And riskreward-wise the every every punch you land on him is the value of the jackpots you hit in between punches. So, okay, you're welcome to go to town and shoot jackpot shots for an hour if you want, and then your punch will really count score-wise, or you can do one shot back to his his chest, two shots, back hitting him again, and then I think it's I think it's one, two, three, or it's one, two, three, and four, and then like that end of that will destroy him. Yeah. So what what I thought at least my understanding is that you hit one jackpot then you hit him hit two jackpots then hit him three. Is that is that still how it is or Yeah, but that's just a minimum. You're welcome to keep shooting jackpot shots. Okay. So you can you could hit like four jackpots and really like give a land a big uppercut. Yep. Okay. All right. Okay. So that's uh that's what I Well, okay. At least at least I understand it, but I didn't know that you could uh you could go beyond that. Okay. So Marshall, so the mini wizard mode. So tell me about the marshall mode. So in that advanced rank tree that you get from your gunfight wins or your skill shot or your bounty there once you reach the end, there was nothing in the game. So this was another rule pretty early on that we knew, you know, this should be something special in some way. you just advanced this thing to the end and there's nothing. So, the uh the rule there once you get to the end, you'll see the uh Have you reached it or you have not? No, I I haven't reached it yet. It's it's hard. The uh gunfight inlanes will start to sort of pulse quickly and both of them will be lit, which is different than the rest of the game that you're playing. You'll be able to alternate them. You will notice a difference that these are both lit at the same time and they're not going away. Go down either one of those and that marshall mode will start. And I think what did I wrote up some garbage for that flyer. What? Read my verb. Okay. It's a wonderful story. All right. Uh uh story time, children. Uh a mini wizard mode has been added uh once you reach the rank of marshall. Boss Bart sends a group of bad guys to hijack the train and it's headed home to Cactus Canyon Station. Shoot jackpots to help bring the train home and send those bad guys to jail. However, just when you think everything is safe, the bad guys escape, triggering the start to Marshall multiball. Uh, hit jackpots and drop targets to complete to capture those bad guys and send them back to jail. So, your the train starts on the right and this is another part where you know the train was only integrated in the poly mode. The save poly mode. Yeah, and really technically only the save poly from the train mode. Yeah, I think and uh so trying to get another point in time where we could in integrate the train in game play as not just a timer but sort of as part of the story was sort of the foundation for how the rules of this mode supported that. So, it starts on the right ramp, which is your train starts all the way to the right, and there's a drop target that pops up that gets in the way of making that right ramp shot harder. If you can, your goal is to shoot the right ramp before your timer runs out. If you can do it without knocking the target down that's blocking it, you get more points. It's not necessary for advancement of the story, but if you shoot the right ramp, the train will move and something else will get in the way. And the display will have, you know, it's a boulder, it's a cow, or whatever ends up getting pulled in front of the train. And so it'll move to the marshall uh the Marshall shot and it'll stop. The drop target, drop targets number three and four will come up. And that's sort of your next interaction with the bad guys of, oh no, you know, they're they're they've taken over control. Shoot that marksman shot before the timer runs out. Get more points if you do it without hitting the targets. if you can thread that needle of that shot and it'll advance to the center ramp. Targets two and three will pop up and you're advancing that train all the way back to Cactus Canyon Station with the final shot being on the left orbit. If you can make that, you will get the train home safely and then have this multiball aspect of like the tier 2 level of the mode. Okay. And by the way, you you said drop targets three and four. I'm assuming you're naming them from left to right. Are they I'm naming them from left to right. Okay. All right. So now you have high noon. Okay. So now this is this is a mode I haven't got to. So you'll have to tell me about it. Man, it's been a while since I've gotten to. All right. What did I CGC about it? Okay. High Noon had you fighting Boss Bart's entire gang, but the question hasn't been answered in 25 years. Is where did Boss Bart go? Where's Polly? This update brings a second stage to the high noon battle. After escaping with Paulie and taking her hostage, it's time for the ultimate showdown with Boss Bart to save Paulie and to bring peace back to Cactus Canyon. Yeah, that sounds right. Sounds like something I wrote. I like the accent. Thanks, man. the the uh during stage one, which is still the what was in the original Williams game, you have a certain amount of time to hit as many bad guys as you can. I think it's like you need to hit 30 in 30 seconds. So unlimited balls, they keep coming. Every target you hit, they keep popping up. And as you get down to like four bad guys left out of the 30, they will not come back up. So, your final four will be, you know, one, two, four, and then your last one to hit would be number three because number three sucks. He's always so hard to hit. You hit that one in the allotted time, and you'll hit you'll enter this stage two, which is new. Stage two is pretty simple. You got to hit Bart, but drop target number three, which blocks Bart, you need to hit that down and then it's only down temporarily. So, you got to hit that down and then get it back into a shot on Bart before it pops back up. Do and do you have to hit shot three before you can't like scoot around it? Oh, no. You could I mean the whole game where you want to hit drop target three and you miss it and shoot the saloon. You can do that the entire game and and you can certainly do that here at the end and uh you won't because now you want to hit it into the saloon back and you will find yourself just hitting drop target three over and over again. Yeah. I think it's three three shots into uh into the Bart into Bart will will knock him dead. Okay. The peasants will rejoice. Yay. Okay. So, so that is and now speaking of that is we've we've just spent basically 30 minutes going over a complete rehaul of the of the code which is is super impressive. So, what else do you want people to know about the update? And I'm assuming that people who have the Cactus Canyon, like why wouldn't you want to get the update? I I I don't understand why people would not buy the update. It's a good qu. I think you know it the overwhelming question and the and obviously the hardware is what the hardware is but a lot of the conversations that Lyman and I had with CGC is really we're really going to learn what is the value of software it there are no costs of goods right it's it's free and I feel like software and this goes for all you know when you see software updates from other manufacturers the idea that I anything it should be free because this is now the complete game, right? And dealing with that narrative of if Stern or whoever else were to put certain features behind a payw wall. How do you deal with that narrative with your customer base that well now they're just artificially picking a line that's 1.0? you know, all the it was all the conversations we were having of like are are customers going to feel like we intentionally held things back that they should have gotten with the product that they purchased. So that's I mean that's a real thing and there's certainly you know a fair share of people that believe exactly that you that we and we have this outline for the project and we did pick a line right that was content that was included in the base game you purchased and content that like so it's behind a payw wall and it's like we're really sorry about that but there's a lot of money spent on development on software art sounds you know, all that stuff that while doesn't it doesn't go on the bill of materials, it does need to be paid for. Yeah. But I I would argue that uh even with other manufacturers, you're starting to see that. I mean, with the topper exclusive modes that Stern's doing, like you're already seeing that people are like, "Well, okay, so I'm not getting the full game if I don't get like goat frenzy or or whatever. The shark is broken. And so this is not something that's unique. Uh but it's not. But move, you know, I mean, in your mind, move that line. I mean, X-Men just had an update, right? Let's say four months ago they called X-Men 1.0, right? And now this new update that is free, you know, for people that have the game, what if it was being sold and dealing with that feedback with the community of, you know, oh man, are we g, you know, what is the contract with the buyer in terms of what they deserve versus what they deserve based on what they have already paid for and how can that customer should that customer be monetized additionally for content. Right. And you do see it a little bit. You do see it a little bit. Now there are other games where I have wondered about buying like actually and this is something near and dear to your company. Uh so Big Buck Hunter, I've thought about buying Big Buck Hunter a few times. um one which I think I just barely found out that you can turn off like the hot checks uh transition mode uh between and so that actually is a plus for home environment by the way. Yeah, I get it. I get it. So uh so I did just find that out. I'm like, "Huh, that may may be interesting." But then there is if you buy something like that and they're like okay so now to get the full game I believe that you can still play a single mode without the subscription but if you want all the other stuff you pay it's like I think it's like 40 40 bucks a month to get the full unlimited thing. Do I do I understand that correctly? Yes. So our model is you either can pay for and hold on let me since I'm at work I can actually I can actually at work. So there is a base game that is our base game is online. So it's heavily subsidized. It's a much cheaper product, right? And for $40 a month, you get our base buck hunter game with all of the additional animals and levels that have been built onto that additional game. You get our Terminator game. You get our Walking Dead game. You get In Search of Monsters, In Search of Zombies, and Duck Dynasty. All of that content is included in the online game that you pay per month. If you don't want to pay per month, you can buy what we call the offline version of the product. It is way more expensive. Sure. Because you are buying it with everything included. Yeah. Okay. Basically, the I if I were to describe this to anybody else, I would say their model is if you're doing the subscriptionbased model, they're basically selling you a game that's roughly roughly their price for the game. Like they're basically giving you the hardware and hoping that you buy the subscription and so they can make whatever money off that. That's right. Um, if you want if you want to do the other one, then you can pay a lot more, but you're not like each module is going to be significantly more expensive because you're buying a standalone module and and so that am I understanding that that Yeah. And it's like I would recommend this to you personally. I recommend it to anyone who else who puts a big buck hunter in their home is Yeah. buy an online version. Sure. play the online content and decide what you think speaks to you and then turn it offline and buy the content you want allocart which we also allow you to do right and and then in the future you can always like resubscribe you can unsubscribe you can do you do that so you're and you're look you're looking at this type of thing with video games a lot you're looking at microtransactions you're you're looking at and some games have been able to bridge that mode successfully without alienating. Pinball is hard, man. It is. Yeah, pinball, man. Pinball drew that line in the sand that like, no, dang it. I bought this game. I I bought this used game for $4,000 10 years, you know, that's a 10-year-old game and dang it, they should be keep updating it for free. Well, and honestly, my my P3 though has kind of but it's got the integration with the screen like it's been able to you can add more content for a little bit more of a cost. Sure. But it goes back to that whole like it there is it's software you're buying versus hardware. It's it's hard with pinball like what we what we started with at the very beginning of this episode as Scott has alluded to with installing the new kit there. You're expecting people that have a hard time opening the coin door and taking glass off that expect hardware with pinball when it comes to paying more of a price. At least with toppers, it's literally you stick it on top, you screw two, you know, two, three screws in, plug the harness, and you're done. Yeah. It's like you're done. And so it's like where it it pinball definitely has an uphill battle when it comes to DLC and content like that, you know? I Well, We've learned a lot with, you know, the the cactus kit, see seeing the kind of numbers that that we're selling on it and hearing back, you know, whether customers believe it's a good value, whether they believe it should have been $250, whether they believe it should have been free. You know, I I've heard I've heard all of that different feedback. And it'll be interesting if if there is another update down the line that is less hardware intensive. What does that mean? You know, out of the $1,250 for the value of that cactus kit, how much of that if it was a saloon mech that didn't have any rules functionality besides opening and closing, what's that worth? What is all of the content worth that has nothing to do with the hardware? I don't know. And I and and all anyone can do is give their own personal opinion of what you I like I to me I think the software is far more valuable than the hardware in terms of the gameplay experience. But can completely feel that someone having the opposite take is completely reasonable. I I will also point out that if anybody is installing the kit and they have questions, you can definitely get a hold of me on Facebook. I can definitely help you out with that uh with the the landmines that I ran into because I'm an idiot. So, just I'm going to put a plug in there for it's I made it more complex than it really should have been. Also, flipping out uh with Joel Ingerber, he did a full install video. Awesome. His video is awesome. The one part that I messed up on is he kind of skipped over the setback part. And so that that's that's where I got I got screwed up on. So, okay. So, we're running out of time, but I do have one question that is not Cactus Canyon pertained. Josh, it's been 2, three years now since we've seen Pulp Fiction. Is there another game in the future coming from the mind of of Josh Sharpe and play mechanics? Is there something you can wet our whistle with when it comes to that? Of course there. Yeah. Twins 2031. We are in two days. It'll be five years away. Okay. Sounds good. Yeah. I I don't believe you, by the way. You're You're a bald-faced liar. But yes, I don't know. I We're uh until I'm a I'm a I'm a resultsoriented Sure. dude. And Pulp Fiction shipped seven years after we started it. So, until proven otherwise, we are a one game every seven years company. I prove me wrong. Yeah. Okay. Prove me wrong. You can't I get it. Can't prove me wrong. I I You just looked at your calendar. You're like, "Pul Fiction released this day." So, we're good. Yeah. Okay. The other the other obvious questions that people are going to have is I have three CGC games behind me and I have Attack from Mars and Storage. So, and you started this discussion saying that you were working on different code things. Okay. I I for one am going to put a big I I wish and and pray and hope that you are going to continue the upgrades for the other games I have. I am am I is it like a a dumb and dumber situation like one a million shot or do we think we have a better shot of getting those things? I am with you that I also hope that be as a consumer I have all of those games and the outlines for pro I mean Lyman and I were obviously we were working on a monster bash update, a cactus update, a medieval update, an attack update, an AC/DC update, and he was going to be the programmer on our game that's coming out in 2031. So, we were working on a lot of stuff together for his little side business. So, as as many of those things that can see the light of day, knowing that it may take 15, 10, 15, 20 years before all of that can be birthed to the universe, I I will fight as long as it takes to see all of that stuff come to life. Unfortunately, all I can do is f I don't pro, you know, I mean, this is where it kind of sucks is I like I I need I'm mostly a cheerleader. So, for me, it's trying to motivate the people that can get the work done to want to do it. Let's do it, please. So, that that's that's where I'm at now. I got off the phone with someone who has uh about 40 games, by the way, and that was his number one question is, "Hey, are we going to see updates for other games?" Cuz he is on board with buying these. So, if if there is I if there's any way that I can help be a cheerleader, I'll put on a skirt. I'll grab some pompoms. I am happy to push that envelope. uh to get you need to start creating like fake email addresses and emailing CGC of like, man, I enjoy all of your games. You know what I would love to see is a Monster Bash update for the game that would take it to the next level. You know, just start spamming. Yeah. What are you talking about? I have their phone number. I call them constant. You right. Get get Jim on the phone and uh yell at him long enough. He'll make it happen. Yeah. I did submit a there is there is a an official proposal that CGC had me write up that they they have our full sort of outline of another project but that can sit now for years. So it's I've done I've done my part. I was asked to update you know polish these. Where is it? I still I these are these are the note this is this is the the folder from Lyman's house with all of our garbage in it and I was happy to pull out some notes from stuff and uh get it into a place where I could email the CGC lords about what I feel would be an excellent update to one of their other games you know and actually I I have another question to your 2031 game with Quinton Taran Ino, you kind of had you were kind of handcuffed cuz he wanted something more 80s. He didn't want ramps. He wanted he wanted that like solid state feel, right? Is your 2031 game going to be more in the modern take of pinball? It's uh Yeah, I feel like we are overcompensating in a way that is as the as the financial head of this company is not not great. I feel like it's going to be very great for pinball enthusiasts and buyers. I got six ramps. Six ramps and two underplay fields. Mark, it's actually three games in one. It's It's a mega wide. We know we're going all out. And it has a VR headset, right? They They got the They got the rights to the pin bar to stick onto There you go. Right. It's the mega wide pin bar. Yes, the mega wide pin bar. You know what? It's uh it's it's definitely not pulp fiction in terms of aesthetic, but it is it is going to be and it's it's our own aesthetic. It it it is definitely our own modern take and it's not going to work for everyone. I know that. But we're taking it we're going to take a swing. We're going to take a swing. So, it's going to be the 3000. It's pinball 3000 VR headset. We're talking we're we're talking like King your guys' King Kong game where you sit inside the VR. It's augmented reality. You know, you were going to be the ball. You're going to be shooting yourself around the pinball machine. Lyman actually Lyman had a great idea for the Matrix where instead of and it was it was never going to work but it was pretty cool was uh instead of playfield glass it would be a a translucent see-through LCD in place of the Playfield glass and you could have all the ones and zeros of stuff like all of a sudden the like you'd just be playing you think it was normal and then you would just see you know the playfield glass just totally get colored in that and then unveil something underneath the playfield when it went away. Oh, that'd be cool. That was cool. He had a lot of a lot of good ideas in that in that brain of his. He was he was a freaking genius. Yeah. Well, I got to get my butt back to work. We appreciate you coming on, Josh. Um, if you want someone to get a hold of you, what's the best way to get a hold of you? ifpa pinball@gmail.com still still works for the time being. So, uh, hit me up there. I'm pretty I'm available. Facebook Messenger, you know, rawthrills, jsharp at rawthrills.com. You can bug Tim Stexton atplaymechanics.com in my absence. He'll I'm sure he'll love getting getting messages from anyone out there. Oh, I don't know if we're letting him eat or not yet. Yeah, we'll see. I'll check it on him. Yeah. No. Awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Josh, thank you again for coming on. We're I am super excited to get get this. And I'm not kidding. This has moved up on my pecking order into uh going above Medieval Madness for how the the basic fan layout is. And I'm not kidding. When my daughter comes down and says, "Hey, I want to play games." She picks two game. She picked three games. Two of them were were your guys' games. Hey So she that that is her gateway. She she picked uh Medieval Madness. She picked Cactus Canyon and Jurassic Park was the other one. So there's something about those games, man. They just they tickle. They tickle in a way that works. Yep. You have to have some sort of clear guidance to the uh to the goal. And they're the perfect mix. Yeah. If you want to get a hold of us, we are loseridpinball@gmail.com on all the socials. loser kid pinball. Uh if you want silverball swag, we still have the baseball jersey, the hockey jersey. It's hockey season. You know, you want to you want to look stylish at the game. Uh also, if you want to hit us up about Scott's blasphemous comments that Cactus Canyon's better than me madness, leave it in the comments below and hit a like. Agree. It's true. Oh, well, I'm in good company then. So, uh yeah, give us our last word, Scott. You know what? Definitely buy the upgra upgrade and if you have to wait for it, it's worth it. _(Acquisition: youtube_auto_sub, Enrichment: v5)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-06-06 | Item ID: 893ddb2d-c343-4546-802b-3c3edc2f32aa*