# Final Round Pinball Podcast Ep 56: Wild **Source:** Final Round Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2022-05-22 **Duration:** 76m 0s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.finalroundpinball.com/final-round-pinball-podcast-ep-56-wild/ --- ## Analysis Final Round Pinball Podcast episode 56 features Josh Sharp, IFPA president, discussing multi-state league reporting changes, World Championship expansion from 64 to 80 players for 2023, certified event criteria, supply chain constraints affecting manufacturers, and an upcoming Cactus Canyon code update co-developed with the late Lyman Sheats. The hosts debate pinball market bubble predictions, discuss competitive rule design philosophy, and cover upcoming major tournaments including IFPA 17 in Fort Myers. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] IFPA has sanctioned approximately 2,000 events in 2024 compared to 7,591 in 2019; attendance is at ~44,000 compared to 174,000 in 2019 — _Josh Sharp citing IFPA data directly on the episode_ - [HIGH] IFPA World Championship expanding from 64 to 80 players starting in 2023 (Germany) — _Josh Sharp, IFPA president, official announcement_ - [HIGH] Misinformation was spread in a previous Final Round episode about multi-state league policy changes — _Josh Sharp directly stating the previous episode contained inaccurate information about why IFPA changed league reporting_ - [HIGH] IFPA Certified events require minimum 64 rated players, dedicated qualifying (minimum 16 to finals), no byes beyond round of 16, and finals cannot start same day as qualifying — _Josh Sharp outlining specific Certified event criteria for 2022_ - [HIGH] Manufacturing backlog continues: Raw Thrills ships 100 games but takes orders for 106, growing backlog by six each cycle — _Josh Sharp describing supply chain situation at Raw Thrills_ - [HIGH] Cactus Canyon code update developed by Josh Sharp and Lyman Sheats is complete for competitive/strategic gameplay and will represent 'radical departure' from original ruleset — _Josh Sharp discussing updated code in his basement, played daily_ - [MEDIUM] Supply chain constraints (e.g., coin door shortages at Raw Thrills) are primary driver keeping pinball market inflated, not pure bubble conditions — _Josh Sharp and Marty Robbins discussing supply-demand dynamics_ - [MEDIUM] Previous IFPA World Championship cut line in Italy (2 or 3 years ago) was as low as 59-60 players due to high country delegation attendance — _Josh Sharp explaining historical cut line variation based on venue location_ ### Notable Quotes > "Well, there was a lot of information that wasn't factual on your episode...if a lot of that was factual, then there probably would be bigger issues." > — **Josh Sharp**, early in episode > _Directly calls out misinformation in previous Final Round episode about IFPA league policy_ > "For bums like me to have a chance. That's why. Get us, Jeff. Beat me to it. I need a lower cut line, man. I'm not as good as I used to be." > — **Josh Sharp**, discussing World Championship expansion > _Self-deprecating explanation for 64-to-80 player expansion; shows personal motivation for policy_ > "The game that Lyman and I wanted to make from a competitive, strategic perspective, it's done...it will be a radical departure and something that I can't wait to see how people try to attack it." > — **Josh Sharp**, Cactus Canyon code discussion > _Confirms Cactus Canyon code update is functionally complete and substantially different from original_ > "You're not running into the 99 percent thing which is you have everything but one thing, and guess what you're down because 99 is not an A minus, it's an F, and you're fucked." > — **Josh Sharp (quoting his boss)**, supply chain section > _Illustrates severity of supply chain bottlenecks in manufacturing_ > "I think it's a year away at least before supply even catches up to demand, and then we'll see some leveling of the water and we can talk about it then." > — **Marty Robbins**, bubble discussion conclusion > _Prediction that market normalization is 12+ months away_ > "I do see something like that coming down the pipeline, just nothing I can talk about." > — **Josh Sharp**, discussing potential for increased TGP rewards for long leagues > _Teases upcoming IFPA policy changes for 2023 season_ > "You want there to be a debate over...you want to force someone to have to make a choice that makes them feel like they're giving something up by not making a different choice." > — **Josh Sharp**, game design philosophy discussion > _Core design philosophy behind Cactus Canyon code update_ > "It's just a question of like when's that going to happen? Spring next year? I don't know." > — **Josh Sharp**, supply chain forecast > _Acknowledges uncertainty in manufacturing backlog resolution timeline_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Josh Sharp | person | IFPA president and co-host Jeff Teolis's guest; also financial controller at Raw Thrills; involved in Cactus Canyon code development with Lyman Sheats | | Jeff Teolis | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast; tournament organizer; recurring target of Marty's jokes about failed comedy career | | Marty Robbins | person | Co-host of Final Round Pinball Podcast; referenced as working at Haggis Pinball; previously organized Melbourne Super Bowl Championship | | Lyman Sheats | person | Deceased designer who collaborated with Josh Sharp on Cactus Canyon code update; left design notes and vision for balancing game rules | | Zach | person | Brother of Josh Sharp; mentioned in opening joke about being chosen over Josh in a previous episode | | Chuckwurt Webster | person | Guest on episode discussing multi-state league changes and IFPA policy; appears to represent league organizer perspective | | International Flipper Pinball Association | organization | Governing body for competitive pinball; expanding World Championship, implementing Certified event standards, managing league reporting changes | | IFPA World Championship 17 (IFPA 17) | event | Top 64 (expanding to 80 in 2023) player championship held in Fort Myers, Florida at Pinball Asylum; delayed three years due to pandemic | | Pinball Asylum | venue | Fort Myers, Florida venue hosting IFPA 17; chosen based on reputation and positive player feedback | | Raw Thrills | company | Pinball manufacturer where Josh Sharp works as financial controller; experiencing severe supply chain constraints affecting production | | Cactus Canyon | game | Classic pinball game receiving new code update co-developed by Josh Sharp and Lyman Sheats; currently in testing phase in Josh's basement | | Fathom | game | Vintage pinball game; Marty Robbins has created updated code (Fathom 2.0) with new rule framework and story | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer mentioned in context of Certified event format adoption | | Kaylee George | person | Competitive pinball player known for exploiting game rules; mentioned as example of top player finding optimal shots | | Texas Pinball Festival | event | Major pinball tournament that changed format after Certified event status was introduced | | Pinfest | event | Allentown pinball tournament that changed format after Certified event status was introduced | | New England Pinball League | organization | Regional league operating multi-state competitive events; affected by IFPA league reporting changes; had concerns about misinformation in previous podcast | | District 82 | venue | Pinball venue agreed to host IFPA Nationals and Pinmasters for next year; earning hosting stripes through quality events | | Haggis Pinball | company | Company where Marty Robbins works; mentioned in context of daily supply chain challenges | | Game of Thrones | game | Stern pinball game with comprehensive ruleset; example of game where competitive meta narrows player choices despite rule design intent | | AC/DC | game | Game designed by Lyman Sheats with intent to balance all 12 songs equally; illustrates challenge of achieving design goals | | Elvira: House of Horrors | game | Referenced as example of easier playfield layout where code updates significantly impact gameplay experience | | Coindoor | company | Supplier that shut down Raw Thrills' access, forcing workaround with sheet metal placeholders and mail-order coin doors | ### Topics - **Primary:** IFPA Policy Changes and League Reporting, World Championship Expansion (64 to 80 players), Certified Events and Tournament Standards, Supply Chain Constraints and Manufacturing, Cactus Canyon Code Update - **Secondary:** Pinball Market Bubble and Pricing Dynamics, Game Design Philosophy and Rule Balance - **Mentioned:** Podcast/Host Banter and Inside Jokes ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.55) — Discussion is largely factual and professional regarding IFPA operations, but carries undercurrent of frustration with previous misinformation, supply chain challenges, and some self-deprecating humor from Josh Sharp. Market situation (supply constraints) is viewed as stressful but manageable. Upcoming events and code updates generate optimism. Host banter is lighthearted and joking. ### Signals - **[policy_signal]** Josh Sharp clarifies that previous Final Round episode contained inaccurate information about IFPA multi-state league reporting changes. IFPA changed HOW results are reported, not whether leagues can operate; primarily affects groups that don't prioritize WPPR points. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp: 'There was a lot of information that wasn't factual on your episode...We were simply changing how the results were reported, which for a group that primarily does not care about whopper points, I would imagine makes it mostly irrelevant.' - **[announcement]** IFPA World Championship expanding from 64 to 80 players starting in 2023 in Germany. Change driven by concern that at-large cut line had fallen below 64 in previous events (e.g., 59-60 in Italy), creating situation where officially ranked top-64 players couldn't compete. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp: 'For bums like me to have a chance...I need a lower cut line, man...this will help move that at-large line, hopefully back a little bit.' - **[product_strategy]** IFPA Certified events are mid-tier tournament classification between normal events and majors. Requires 64+ rated players, dedicated qualifying/finals structure, specific formatting rules. Provides 20% TGP bonus. Designed to reward high-quality, longer-duration events without major designation. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp outlining detailed criteria: '64 or more rated players...dedicated qualifying portion...minimum of 16 players into finals...finals cannot start same day as qualifying' - **[supply_chain_signal]** Raw Thrills experiencing persistent component shortages (e.g., Coindoor coin doors shut down production). Manufacturing backlog growing: shipping 100 units but receiving 106 orders weekly, growing backlog by 6 units per cycle. Josh Sharp uncertain when supply will catch up. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp: 'We'll ship 100 games and we'll take orders for 106 games and our backlog will be plus six...I think it's a year away at least before supply even catches up.' - **[code_update]** Cactus Canyon code update co-developed by Josh Sharp and Lyman Sheats is functionally complete for competitive play. Represents 'radical departure' from original ruleset. Josh Sharp actively playtesting on 'super hard, no balls' setting. Intended to significantly change strategic priorities compared to original one-shot orbit meta. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp: 'The game that Lyman and I wanted to make from a competitive, strategic perspective, it's done...it will be a radical departure and something that I can't wait to see how people try to attack it.' - **[market_signal]** Pinball market prices remain inflated not due to speculative bubble, but due to genuine supply constraints. Secondary market prices driven by scarcity rather than speculation. Jeff Teolis' previous 'bubble burst' prediction has not materialized; market remains seller-favorable due to supply shortage. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp: 'It's got to be as simple as textbook supply and demand...when supply...Coindoor shut us down, what we now have available is...sheet metal...it's still crazy out there' - **[design_philosophy]** Josh Sharp and Lyman Sheats designed Cactus Canyon code to force player choice and strategic debate by making both left and right flipper shots viable and valuable, avoiding dominant meta where single shot is only optimal choice. Philosophy applies to competitive pinball design generally. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp: 'How do we change and give someone a choice?...you want to force someone to have to make a choice that makes them feel like they're giving something up by not making a different choice.' - **[product_strategy]** IFPA planning expanded event tier system for 2023 (details not finalized). Certified 2.0 will build on existing Certified criteria. Will allow events to earn various TGP boosts between normal events and majors. Designed to recognize high-effort, long-duration leagues that exceed 25 TGP maximum. (confidence: medium) — Josh Sharp: 'Look forward to our changes for next year which have not been finalized yet, but we do see a path towards kind of increasing that runway for events that want to take advantage of that.' - **[event_signal]** IFPA 17 (World Championship) in Fort Myers at Pinball Asylum venue selected based on reputation and venue's track record hosting quality events. Venue selection criteria: positive player feedback and host group interest in hosting marquee events. Event delayed 11 times over 3 years. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp: 'I've heard great things from people that I trust...these places earn their stripes through holding their own events...when player feedback is positive...that's the kind of match we're looking for.' - **[business_signal]** IFPA participation still below pre-pandemic levels: 2,000 events in 2024 vs. 7,591 in 2019 (26% of pre-COVID); ~44,000 attendees vs. 174,000 in 2019 (25% of pre-COVID). Josh Sharp expects recovery will accelerate in spring 2024 as tournament calendar fills. (confidence: high) — Josh Sharp citing official IFPA data: '2,000 events this year...7,591 in 2019...Almost 44,000 people...174,000 in 2019...we're batting like two-thirds.' - **[rumor_hype]** Josh Sharp humorously states Cactus Canyon code update will release 'someday in 2029 or whenever the hell it comes out,' suggesting no firm release timeline is set despite code being functionally complete. Back-end polish and testing remain. (confidence: medium) — Josh Sharp: 'The game that they will be playing someday in 2029 or whenever the hell it comes out, it will be a radical departure.' --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Hello and welcome again to Final Round. My name is Geoff Teolas. My name is Martin Robbins and this is episode 56. Geoff, how do we do it? It's a miracle every single week. It's certainly not through fan support, but that's another side. I mean, listen, maybe, maybe, if we think about it, we've killed off some of our fans. And I don't mean we, I mean you. You were on a rampage there for a while, let's be honest. Yeah, sure. In fact, our next guest has been killed by you. It was a battle between him and his brother, Zach, and you easily chose Zach. I also agreed with that, but... Oh yeah, it was so easy. Through the miracle of reincarnation, or who knows what, the president of the ifpa joins us right now Josh Sharpe hey josh what's up boys as you were talking about zach i just got a text from him that he's on the way to help me move my godzilla in the basement so good uh good coincidence nice so i mean yes as as jeff mentioned in the intro i i did kill you off but i was gonna say it's the ghost i'm the ghost of job yeah but i i at least i haven't killed off competitive pinball fair very fair so we we talked about it a couple of episodes ago this was the whole the the leagues the multi-state league how's how's that ended up for you he's banned in texas and in new Robert Englunds the misinformation extravaganza it's fine it's everything's every everything's fine what's fine to you because i know players that have reached out to me especially after that episode fine wasn't the four letter f word that they used well there was there was a lot of information that like wasn't wasn't factual on your episode so i think uh you know if if a lot of that was factual then there probably would be bigger issues but i for us there's nothing that we've changed not allowing leagues to run leagues like that league like the new Robert Englunds pinball league to run the same way they were and still sanction that activity. We were simply changing how the results were reported, which for a group that primarily does not care about whopper points, I would imagine makes it mostly irrelevant to how things get reported. How's that? Is that pretty good? Well, let's find out from the source joining us right now, Chuck Webster. So when you say misinformation was there something specific that you went whoa whoa whoa that's not exactly it i can't you know i can't it's been it's been too long that i can't remember everything but i got enough messages of like is this doesn't sound right is this right and responding to many people privately that uh you know a lot of that was not right in terms of uh why we were making the changes we were making and the fact that it is still allowable for leagues to run exactly that way. And it's sort of, I feel like it came off that like we were not allowing that to be the case anymore. Now you understand, and this is what I've gathered in five years of podcasting. Yes. If you do a podcast where you give false information, you actually do very, very well and you get more listeners. So, so maybe that was our whole point. Did you ever think of that? Does this mean you guys are officially like twippy hunting then? Is that the plan? Let's not get crazy. Not a chance. So I did mention, and I still feel this in some way, maybe not through anything you've done, just maybe the way that people are looking at points and trying to accumulate whoppers and achievements and get status for their state or their province or their country. I do still believe we are going to see less IFPA leagues, but they would be replaced with ifpa tournaments is that that's totally fair and that's kind of it's been that way for a really long time right if you're looking to strictly maximize points like any game you play i mean we we had a uh we were joking about it in our league years ago we were playing like 300 percent tgp worth of stuff and and we had a conversation in our league about do we just want to play three smaller seasons rather than this one season that takes seven months and everyone was like no i kind of like it the way it is but i think for most people like our league has been around far longer than the ifpa has been around so for us it wasn't a really important thing you know the whoppers but for other groups it is a far more important thing than i think people are willing to admit. And the leagues do end up with a lot of wasted games played because once you hit that 100%, you've done it. You've done everything you can to maximize the value. So it's been that way for a while. You talk about wasted games, and I get that too. So once you achieve the 25 TGP, you can't really maximize any more based on the current scoring system. So if you played a league that you required to have 10 nights and you played four games each night, well, even before you get to playoffs, if there wasn't direct play, that's 40 TGP. So that's 15 wasted games, if you will, probably four nights. Is there any chance that any of these leagues that do more than 25 TGP might be rewarded somehow? Or is that kind of the nice comfort zone no i think uh look forward to our changes for next year which have not been finalized yet but we do see a path towards kind of increasing that runway for events that want to take advantage of that so yeah no i think it it is worthy for for leagues that i mean i think our league when you count the fact that match play counts double you know for four player groups we have something like like 70 meaningful games played first you know it's like it's three full tournaments worth of activity that uh you know it should be graded higher than you know a 25 game event or league so i do see something like that coming down the pipeline just nothing i can talk about you've said enough that's good yeah yeah so overall for the ifpa as far as participating people how are the numbers looking at the moment and obviously we we had that the break with covid are we are we back to normality yet as far as the number of people competing let's see let's i don't know that answer but i can look at it i told you we should have had shepherd come on this program why did we bring on josh so we've we've had 2 000 events this year and 2019 was 75 91 so we're still we're batting low you know we're not all the way back same thing on the attendance side almost 44 000 people have played this year and it was 174 000 in 2019 we're batting like two-thirds so not bad but not all the way back do you seeing it just a natural progression of it just it coming back or do you think that there has been some permanent casualties uh i think figuratively speaking yeah not nobody no events are we killing events now marty stay tuned right i i think there's just like the natural course of the year that things tend to pick up you know starting in april i know that's usually when i've hit the most trouble with amanda is when april starts and i start traveling to places so i think it's it's half a function of the calendar of that 2019 season takes into account the whole year like December is usually whopper madness with people putting in a ton of events to try to to qualify for states or whatever country they're in so I think uh we'll see it as the year progresses I think we'll get closer back to normal but I'm still even though I have stuff planned to go to this year I don't know about you two but I'm still not I haven't competed as often as I used to yet because I just haven't had the things on the schedule hit yet. You've got a big one coming up in a few weeks, and that's the World Championships in Fort Myers, Florida. The IFPA 17. Three years in waiting, really. Yeah. But it's finally here. And for those that don't know, it's basically the top 64 players. What they do is they take the top two from every country, including Romania, and they bring them. You always have to be thanking Herbert. Austria. You've got to use Austria in your referencing. You have no idea how much I love Austria. A treasured place to me. But so obviously you don't fill 32 different countries. I think a good number is around 17, 18, 19, and they send their delegates, if you will, to play. And then the remaining field is made up of people that may have won the European Pinball Championship or the North American Championship Series, and then the remaining highest-ranked players that decide to make that trip. So that's exciting. For many, many years, it's been the top 64 people. That's going to change in 2023. You've expanded this, and this was done on the April Fool's post, but it was a real post. 80 people. I am so thrilled that that is finally expanding, but that obviously comes with complications. Maybe you need different venues now to accommodate that many people. It's certainly with Germany kind of already scheduled. the uh i did have to clear that with freddie's team that expanding from 64 to 80 just to make sure that he and his team were okay with that which they were so why the need to expand i mean obviously it is a good thing but what's driving that for bums like me to have a chance that's why get us jeff beat me to it i need a lower cut line man i'm not i'm not as good as i used to be we gotta move it we've got to move it down we gotta keep moving it down until i make it so but you're not you're not therefore increasing the number of delegates per country it's just the the remaining pool there's more people that can get in correct i think in all seriousness the talk people have been talking about field expansion for a while and for years i had said the uh the country exemption spots you know they do eat up a lot of spots but my argument was as long as nobody can complain if you're not ranked in the top 64 you know you shouldn't complain that you didn't make the cut for for the world's best 64 players and the cut line had never been higher than 64 lower than whatever i better rank than 64 until like two three years ago in italy i think it was it was 60 or 59 where where all of a sudden it was like oh shit you know technically now even if you're the best in the best 64 we're now telling you you can't play so this will help move that at large line, hopefully back a little bit. We'll see how it goes. I think it really depends as we move between Europe and the U.S. It's travel logistics and timing for people more than I think them wanting to go or not wanting to go. When you hold it in Europe, the likelihood of more countries showing up is much greater. When I made it in IFPA 15, thanks to Herbert from Austria not showing up. I was 85th, so that was the cut line, if you will, of the top 64. But you're right, it was in the high 50s at Italy because it's so easy to get to Italy. And the same will be for Germany. So it's a very welcome change to move to 80. But before we get to next year and Germany, Fort Myers has been chomping at the bit to put this on, and the people at the Pinball Asylum are ready. It all begins, it really begins kind of a week in advance. It's really a Sunday-to-Sunday event. And you joked about Amanda letting you off. I mean, are you doing the whole week? Are you? I'm not. You bet I am. Are you kidding? There you go. Hopefully you'll be earning some Ann Brownie points before you take off. Again, when I leave, it's a welcome change for Ann. Can you imagine living with me? Let's be honest. Good point. So it's all these different events, and certainly Florida has a bunch of great players. We see it a lot at Freeplay Florida, and it's going to be at all kinds of different locations. But Pinball Asylum, that's a place I've never been before. What do you like about that, and why were they chosen? I've never been there either. I think we have a hosting application. I've heard great things from people that I trust, And David's been a great person to work with now far longer than we've worked with any other host since we've been delaying it 11 times over the last three years. But I think it's just reputation. You know, as a place like District 82, for example, that we just agreed to host Nationals and Pinmasters at for next year, you know, these places earn their stripes through holding their own events. And when player feedback is positive and the hosting group has some interest in helping us host some of our marquee events, that's the kind of matches that we're looking for. Well, that was going to be my question that was in the back of my mind as we're talking about this is the tournaments that we consider the majors. And obviously there's a voting system each year. Do we expect that to change or do you expect that to increase the number that get considered a major? Major-wise, I think no. But the tournaments that are currently majors, there's really this long history of high quality and high level interest from the existing player base that it becomes more about an event earning that status rather than deeming an event that status. and then sort of just the cause and effect of deeming something a major and then watching people show up to it. So we kind of want the chicken before the egg thing for that. But we do have things in place, hopefully, for the 2023 season that will allow events on their own merits to earn various boosts for Whoppers that not quite what a major is able to get, but certainly higher than any normal, air quotes, normal event on the calendar. So you're looking ahead. Obviously, it's premature to talk about them now, but you did make a change with certified events. So that was giving a boost of 20%. This is something a little additional or maybe just different formula? Certified 2.0. It's the extension of what we've been doing, sort of watching the events that have qualified for that status, seeing how that's impacting people that are going to the events and, you know, taking that data in and then pivoting and making changes that we think will be better for the system. When you did Certified, you saw actual big events. Stern Pro Circuit events changed their format. Texas Pinball Festival did that, and so did Pinfest in Allentown. Yeah. What's the criteria for it to become a Certified event? Well, that is a good question, Marty. Again, Shepard, come on the program. I just have to make sure I pull 2022's info and not 2023's info. So, all right, for this year, a tournament must have 64 or more rated players that participate. The tournament needs to have a dedicated qualifying portion that then takes a minimum of 16 players into a separate finals portion. No player may receive a buy beyond the round of 16 finalists. the qualifying portion has some criteria depending on whether there's limited qualifying attempts or unlimited qualifying attempts we won't get into the details but there's criteria that has to be met and same thing with the finals portion we sort of have a list of best practices of finals formats and one of those has to be followed and then the uh there's a timing issue where the finals cannot start on the same day that qualifying starts. So again, it's sort of what you guys touched on a little bit earlier with the leagues, playing so many games beyond 100% value, that really these certified events are also doing that. There's a lot of wasted activity that is well beyond the 100% TGP level, and this is a way for us to reward that above and beyond criteria. So the first criteria you mentioned was 64 ranked players? correct but how do you know you're going to get that many players to be able to say you've got a certified tournament you you don't right so the event can be listed as you know certified with an asterisk until it actually does meet the criteria and i know that uh there were two events in sweden over the weekend that literally had a uh a main event and a classics and they had 63 rated players. I actually had Michael Trepp reach out to me. He was reviewing results and he messaged me and he said, I hate to be the guy that brings this up, but they were one short and I was just like, oh, fuck, that sucks. That's 20% difference. That's huge. But, I mean, you have to have a hard number so it makes sense. Yeah, right. If it's like, oh, it was one off, well, then just make it 63. Oh, we were at 62. Yeah. It's the speed limit, man. It sucks. My question was whether you get to promote it as a certified event and you can't really until you get people actually sign up. So what it really sounding like to me is you putting these rules in place so people are putting on the type of event that I would imagine eventually if it continues to be so successful gets into the realm of becoming a major So it really promoting these bigger tournaments Am I right Yes. And for a lot of these, it's events that have consistently had, you know, well north of 100 players, right? So the line was picked really not to try to have these events stretching to reach 64 players, but really to highlight the bigger events that have 100, 150, 200, 250 players out there and give them some additional value for the format, the quality of format that they're running and the length of the event that they're running. Yeah, okay. If I was still doing the Melbourne Super Bowl championship, it would be certified. Yeah, and I think the Brisbane Masters main event, I think, is certified. It would have to be, yeah. But it's also a major. It's not a major. Their only majors are the IFPA World Championship, Pinberg should it happen, Papa should it happen, the Open at Indisc, and the European Pinball Championship. Only those five are major, as far as with a capital M major. Brisbane is a small M major tournament in the sense that it's part of the Stern Pro Circuit, but it's not the bump of the major status. You should be president, man. You're on the ball, man. yeah i've had so many people say that just like his comedy career he just couldn't quite make it happen just beat that horse man i don't usually feel bad for teolis but every time the comedy stuff man i just feel so there's a little younger teolis that's just crying inside i can feel it it's a deep cut i'm not gonna lie it really is it's hence why i go for it every episode that's all right i'm going back through old episodes of final round and seeing all the fuck-ups marty made i'm making a collage you got the super bowl of sponsors it's all the marty things that he said that were just all bullshit jeff is there is there video or audio proof of your comedy career somewhere not asking you to share but like is it possible that it exists oh of course what's the chances of sharing that with marty if he promises only to share it with people that ask him. Yeah. Zero and fuck all chances. Are you kidding? Yeah, and absolutely no chance I would just keep it to myself. Like, it would be out there. I was in Robert Englunds a few years ago, and they had a, I want to say it was a comedy night, an amateur night, and I was sitting with Anne, and I thought, I could fucking put 10 minutes together easily just to go up there. But I thought, no, it's not about me. I'm just going to enjoy the show. I went out on top. My boys are here, so keep it clean now. Oh, hi. Oops. So, Josh, let me just quickly pivot to a new topic. It's an old topic, and it was one of the episodes where you got a mention. It's also where we get to, you know, hey, pot shots at Jeff. So we're going to enjoy this as well. So this is in relation to the bubble bursting because when Jeff said that the bubble was going to burst within a matter of minutes or days... No, I never said when. I said it will. Yeah, within days. And he said, well, you know who else agrees? Josh Sharpe says it's going to happen. So I'm keen to get your take on the bubble bursting, which was meant to happen six months ago. I shouldn't have sold my games, man. it shouldn't assault some games it's it's never bursting ever you liar no i don't it's tough it the pandemic certainly uh i don't know all the money that wasn't spent on vacations i'm sure for for people that are into games there's some extra money to be spent coming out of the pandemic like i don't know like does it still continue to go crazy or do we see it revert a little bit because people have funds now going to other things outside of the house, especially if they were like me and they never left their house. I just don't know anymore. You had people at home because of the pandemic. That was a factor. And now that they're not at home, the factor is the supply isn't there. Josh, you and I know I just received two machines two weeks ago that I ordered six to nine months ago. Marty, you know what it's like. You've read social media when people say, oh, please. So that is why it continues to be as crazy as it is because it's so hard to get a freaking machine. Yeah, but you were 100% convinced that it was going to burst within a matter of minutes and days. No, I didn't. Go back and listen to the tape, Lylord. You did. Well, as part of that compilation you're putting together of me, you can add that as well. Here's the funny thing. At that time, we were just laughing at the incredible prices. It's gotten worse in the last couple of months. It has gotten worse, much worse. I mean, is it just as simple? It's got to be as simple as textbook supply and demand, right? For sure. Yes, it is. So when supply, and we see this at Raw Thrills, like we had Coindor shut us down, that we now are audible is, well you know where that coin door goes well we're just going to put a piece of sheet metal we're going to screw that in and we're going to include a coupon for anyone that wants a coin door later on and they can they can mail us and we'll ship them a coin door like it's still crazy out there in terms of and i'm sure you're seeing it marty over at haggis like it's it's a day-to-day shit show trying to make sure you have you know what my boss says you're not running into the 99 percent f which is you have everything but one thing and guess what you're down because 99 is not an a a minus it's an f and and you're fucked so i think we're seeing and we're managing to get games out at a decent rate but we're still not able to catch up our backlog you know we'll ship we'll ship 100 games and we'll take orders for 106 games and our backlog will be plus six and it's like man when is it going to catch up it has to it's like it will it's just a question of like when's that going to happen spring next year i don't know was that young calling in the background saying no that's fucked that's a kid no that's evan who uh he drags me in the basement enough that he has heard some f-bombs while i'm playing and he's just he starts saying and it's it's not good not father of the year material fellas it's not good what were evan's first words was it uh fuck was it not like this was it second place what what what were his first words so many choices comedian jeff i hope your material was better than that crap oh wow you know how you can prove that is by sharing some audio tapes nice nice nice so anyway some to just put a full stop on it what i'm hearing is jeff was wrong i was right josh has flip-flopped apparently i was wrong i was wrong. I think it's a year away at least before supply even catches up to demand and then we'll see some leveling of the water and we can talk about it then. And a special edition of Final Round where we absolutely pop the bubble. Right, right. Is it time? Yay, yay. Okay, I've been playing your Cactus Canyon without your code. I know you and Lyman worked on a new code that's eventually going to be coming out that people will be able to buy. I'm excited to see that. I know a lot of people who are big fans of Lyman are going to feel the same way. And you feel pretty confident this is going to be a real winner and a real nice tribute to Lyman. I do. I do. I've been playing the game a lot. I have the most updated version in my basement now. And, yeah, even with the pieces that are missing, which are all, you know, kind of back-end stuff, I have the game set on super hard, no balls. You know how we like it, Jeff. Super hard, no balls, say that lanes up. And the game that Lyman and I wanted to make from a competitive, strategic perspective, it's done. That stuff's all done, and I'm enjoying that every day, trying to find ways. Is it balanced in exactly the way that we drew it up on paper? And I'm feeling really good about that. At some point, maybe I'll sneak some people over here to play and give some feedback. But feeling really good about it. Is it radically different from the original rule set or is it an extension of it? It's definitely built on top of the base game that everyone is playing now. But the things that we did to change what's important for scoring big, there are some radical changes. in terms of the things that people will find important while playing. You know, the game that they're playing now versus the update that they will be playing someday in 2029 or whenever the hell it comes out, it will be a radical departure and something that I can't wait to see how people try to attack it. It's so needed because the game shoots well. I know a lot of people aren't familiar with the old Cactus Canyon, so they're seeing this for the first time. but if you were on the left flipper, you're shooting it around the orbit, getting it into the top lanes to get your bonus multiplier. If you're on the right flipper, you're shooting the mine. That was the whole game, and the changes are much needed. So there are some easy shots in there, but much like Elvira, House of Horrors, which is also an easier layout, code really makes that game. So I'm hoping for good things from you and from Lyman's ideas. Certainly the bonus, I can go through the, Penny dropped off all the old notes that Lyman had written as we were discussing things, you know, going back to the first meeting. And yeah, it was how do we, Kaylee's name was brought up, you know, hundreds of times as we were working through things of like, how do we change and give someone a choice? Really, that's all you want. You want there to be a debate over, it's like you just said, balls on the right flipper, you know what you're shooting. balls on the left flipper you know what you're shooting i want you to have a debate as to what you should be shooting right at least from forgetting about story and sort of the most important part of the entertainment of pinball but certainly from like a strategy perspective you want to force someone to have to make a choice that makes them feel like they're giving something up by not making a different choice if that makes any sense what do you think marty uh Are these some of the questions you asked yourself when you put together Fathom 2.0? Well, it's different because I didn't look at the base code and think, how do I extend on that at all? I actually looked at the play field and threw the original rules out and said, how do I tell a new story and build a whole new rules framework around what I'm looking at? So it was a very different proposition. But I also still have in my mind, how do I stop people from doing the thing? And so it's why a lot of the rules that I put in place require you to play the play field as opposed to just repeating the one thing. That's what Elwynn does. That is exactly what Elwynn does. and look he's not the only one but it's really hard when you've got people like Kaylee George out there who just know how to exploit these things and look he's obviously not the only one and there are a lot of games and even Modern Stearns and they all try to do it but ultimately even not necessarily the thing but you know Jeff you know how much I've spoken about how much I dislike being told how I have to play a game. And, you know, even a game that's got a really good comprehensive rule set, like Game of Thrones at the time had all these choices, but everyone was like, well, forget your choices. This is how you play it. So I'm also trying to avoid that state where people are saying there's only one way to get through a game and this is what you do. I think that's it. And I know Lyman talked about it a lot, just in the development of his other games, even before we started officially working together. it's like you just you want there it's balance it's balance and for him i know like acdc he wanted all 12 songs to be equally argued why it should be picked and i don't think the game got there because it's really hard to balance you know three things let alone 12 but that was sort of his top goal right and you fight for that with every decision that you make and it's a it's a struggle I know it was a constant struggle for him to be tweaking something if he noticed something or watched a tournament stream or debated with other competitive players on why someone wasn't choosing specific songs. So it's interesting. Everyone has their own plan of attack. But I think, Marty, what you mentioned in terms of you have this in the case of Fathom, you have a really interesting physical playfield design. And you're exactly right. The goal is you want players to experience that design physically and the rules better support what making that happen rather than someone, you know, I think of like eight ball champ or something when, oh, yeah, you just shoot the left orbit over and over again for the entire game. And it's like it doesn't even matter physically what the rest of the play field gives you in terms of physical entertainment. It just becomes worthless because of a hole in the rules. Well, and Fathom is a prime example where ultimately you really should be going for a three-ball multiball. It's like, well, no, let's not worry about that. Get in a two-ball like the spinner and just rip the spinner. That's right. That's right. So, I mean, the first thing when I looked at the Fathom was how do I stop it from being just rip the spinner but also making the spinner something that's exciting because I don't want people to miss that aspect as well. Yeah, you don't want to overcompensate the other way because people have been shooting the spinner for 30 years. And it's like, first thing I'm going to do is make that thing worthless. And you realize that you overstepped, you know, the other way. So the first thing I did was turn it into an alien star shot. And I think that's, I've had a lot of feedback that people like that. So it still makes it lucrative, but only for a couple of seconds. And you've got a, there's a bit of luck involved, I guess. I can't wait to play it, man. I can't wait to lay underneath it and watch the reflective pool of light wash over me. And get burned by the lasers in your eyes. Sure, sure. The last time you were on Pinball Profile, you talked about some of the programming possible mistakes or where pinball is going. And we mentioned some of the games that we liked that were just, they stood the test of time. And certainly a lot of Lyman's games were those. But your complaint was too many games today are choose your own adventure paths. There are too many choices. and some of those choices are not very effective. They're not good strategy. You said with Cactus, you're going to be on the right flipper and you want to have a couple of choices. I think what you mean by that versus your choose your own adventure path is you have a couple of choices versus six. Yeah, it's kind of with Cactus, you're also filling the holes of a story, right? So outside of, shut up, Evan. You better edit that out. I can't be yelling at a three-year-old publicly. I don't know what happened. What? Oh, you're out of credits, dude. Hold on. I need credits. Yeah, here, you can do it. Just don't shock yourself. Right there. Go ahead. Ground your machines for crying out loud. It's fine. Is that a screwdriver into the coin slot? It's right. Just don't step in the puddle here in the basement. You'll be fine. The problem is now he grabs the keys and opens up all the doors. And it's like, oh, man. Does he start four-player games on each machine and then leave them? Yeah. No, he's actually pretty good at single-player only these days. He's a very wise three-year-old. Anyway, what were we talking about before my three-year-old so rudely interrupted us? The choice. Choose your own adventure. I think you get too many choices, and it becomes impossible to allow the player to even know what options are available. So I know for Cactus in particular, we added the modes from each group of shots, sort of an extension of the medieval hurry-up rule after completing a set of shots. We have these modes that will play a more integral part of your scoring in the update that we do. But making sure that what you do is available for the player to understand by just watching the lights on the play field and reading insert text and being able to really decipher where the game is going. That's the most important part. if you had 12 choices and cactus for any, any given shot, at some point you have more choices than you can physically show, you know, to the player or, or you're left like, Oh, if that shot's blinking pink instead of blue, it's a completely new set of story that we're taking you through. And that's where like, you lose me and lose me in terms of like losing casual people. I think, you know, forget it. It's, it's game over for that. I think it is a little bit more than that because it's light shows, it's also call-outs, and it's also screens that guide you. Because I tell you a game that I think gives you a lot of choice, and I mean, I think a lot of choice for a game, but really holds your hand through it, and that's Jurassic Park, Stern Jurassic Park. I think that it is clear what you need to do, but you've got a lot of choices. And it is also different colors do different things, but it doesn't confuse you. Whereas there are other games that are more recent. Like I think Avengers, I also think Godzilla more so has too much going on. So it's hard to know exactly what you're choosing. I totally, I think Jurassic is like perfect. Same. And I'll get Godzilla down here later tonight and start to be able to put some games on it. But, yeah, I think there's nothing. And I see I mean it funny but listening to my three figure things out is kind of like how you know a game is working So he understands capturing the dinosaurs He understands when that white light is lit on the left for control rooms it starts one of those three things that are on the screen He may not know how to start a control room in terms of lighting it, but the fact that there's a dedicated insert for that area, it does. Everything is available on the play field, and it shows you exactly where things are. even if there is that level of like i'm not quite sure how to light it but the natural course of getting through the game you know you'll light a control room different ways that it'll happen and as long as you are making sure that things are happening through the course of like normal play i think that's the important thing if there was some obscure way to lighting a control room you know i would probably have an issue with it right it's like oh you need to shoot you know You need to play right that, what's the terrible shot? The O shot. You need to shoot 10 O shots, and that'll light a control room. And it's like, how am I supposed to know? Like, that's impossible. What are you talking about? And the game doesn't have any of that. It just feeds you into that next thing organically. But as I said, it still is a game that has more options than most, as opposed to the one or two. But it feeds you progression as opposed to bombarding you, and as you're saying, it not being obscure. Like, you know what you need to do. Yeah, that's the big thing. If I'm, and I consider myself a pretty high IQ level player. Oh, for God's sakes. Come on, man. If I can't understand something by just, I used to tell Gary back in the day, I should be able to figure out what's going on in the game with the game powered off. I can just look, I can read an instruction card, I can read text on inserts on the play field. and figure out most of what I should be doing when I'm playing. And there's a lot of games today where, like, I can't. And if I can't, how do you expect anyone who isn't familiar with pinball to get there? It's just such a leap. The quick answer is you ask Escher and Zach McCarthy and the brilliant kids of today. That's what you do. And they tell you, just hit the ramp over and over and over again. Judging by your parenting skills, Josh. An all-star over here. Oh, my God. And Amanda and Charlotte are gone, so it's me and the boys this week. Oh, wow. Yeah, a lot of sugar. A lot of sugar. I can only assume that, you know, maybe it was that way with Colin. It sounds like it's that with Evan. You don't have any toys in the house. It was like, you want to play a toy? You play a pinball machine because Daddy needs you to love pinball so that Daddy can get out of the house and get to some tournaments and bring his son as a father-son bonding experience when really you're just trying to get some damn games and tournaments in. Am I close? Maybe. Evan's my little buddy, my little pinball buddy. Colin's my basketball buddy. So he's already, you know, I go to March Madness every year with the same group of friends, and Colin has joined my group of friends for the past three years. He is into it. Evan will not leave the basement ever, And when he does, it's like it's a screaming, crying battle. And you ask him how he got out. Once we get off the phone, I will have to convince Evan to come upstairs, and it will be nice that we are not recording anymore because it's going to get very ugly like it does every time. He loves it. He is addicted. So what's it like with Zach and Benson? Is Benson the same? No. Benson is like, in talking to Zach, it does not sound like we had the same pandemic experience where, where Evan was grabbing me at every opportunity to come play. I don't think Benson is that crazy into it, but, uh, I think he'll still go and play, but listening to, to Zach, you know, when he tells me he's, he's played, you know, he's put three games on Avenger since he got it. And it's like, well, I've put 350 games on by cause Evan won't let me leave. There's definitely a difference between the two kids. I'd like to end this only because I'm worried about Evan not eating. That is a problem. Or whether he's been able to pick the lock on the chains around his legs. Sure. His meal of choice has been, I don't know if neither of you guys are from America, but there's this cracker called chicken in a biscuit, and that is like the only thing he's been eating today, which is terrible. Hopefully Amanda doesn't listen to this. Again, just pay attention to your son. I'm sure he's shit and pissed himself half an hour ago, and he's just wallowing in it. But thanks for coming on the program. Hey, I know that we're going to be in Germany for 2023 for the World Championships, come back to North America in 2024. Has that been announced or is that – you said there was a process for that. When does that get announced, if it already has been? So I'm pretty sure we're going to be heading out west to Mr. Balsito's new place. Yes. That's the plan at the moment. But even before the pandemic, I know that he had plans to get his giant barn facility set up. And based on some of the pictures that I've seen on Facebook, he's making some great progress. So we chatted a little bit at InDisc a couple of months ago, and he did not seem to think that there was going to be a problem with that schedule for 24. So I'm happy to seeing how he sets the games up for InDisc. I would welcome a very easy setup day for my crew. And with Jim having control over his own game quality, I can't think of a better place, or at least a better collection of games. I agree. Josh, thanks very much. We'll let you go. Thanks, Evan, for letting you have the time to speak to us. I love him. I love him. He's my little buddy. That's good. Thanks very much, Josh. Thanks, Mike. Thanks, guys. Congrats, Marty, on the Fathom launch. Thanks, mate. Appreciate it. Yeah. Take care, boys. See you, mate. There was Josh Sharpe. Marty, for once in your life, what did you learn? Well, I mean, I wouldn't say I necessarily learned or was educated. What I sort of really had reaffirmed is that what he does, particularly IFPA-wise, it's not easy. It's complicated. And when you make decisions and changes, there's complications around that. And there's usually a period of adjustment and then it continues. But, you know, it's the pinball industry, the hobby itself. One thing that I've always known is that it's complicated. It's not easy because if it was easy, everybody would do it. And, you know, what's really interesting is that for years I was on the other side. I was somebody that critiqued the pinball hobby, the IFPA, the companies themselves. And we were talking about it this week because someone said to me, you know, did you ever think that you would be in this situation where you're working for a pinball company and you're releasing games? And I said, no, but I was always on the other side critiquing companies. And it's just really odd that I'm now on this side. Well, making pinball is not easy. We know that. But critiquing pinball, that's easy. Everyone can do it. It's have a field day. And I got to tell you, I don't know if you've changed much from your head-to-head days before you were working at Haggis. If you have softened your critiques, if you will. I don't think you have. I think you're very open as far as, okay, these are some of the struggles that everyone is having. And common sense says that. I don't know about you, Marty, but I hear the rumblings every now and then that we're too positive, maybe, and we aren't throwing daggers like other podcasts or podcast. And I want all pinball to succeed. Is that a fucking bad thing? I actually own pinball machines unlike other podcasts. I'm a big collector. I go to fucking maybe more shows and tournaments than most people. Can you name 20 people that go to more than me that aren't working in the industry? Probably not. But going back to your comment, I would say that I – look, I would say I softened – I don't even know whether I softened before starting at Haggis, but I've always tried to have a balanced point of view, and I've always looked at these people companies, and Stern in particular, because Stern – obviously, they're the whipping boy. they're the ones that people critique the most. But I've often gone to their defense, I would say, because I've tried to understand their point of view. And I do say to myself, well, if they're doing this a certain way, they are intelligent people. They really are the most intelligent people. They are the most knowledgeable people in the industry. They are. So if they're doing it a certain way, I've got to ask myself, well, maybe that's why they're doing it. Maybe that's the best way and that's the path as opposed to looking at them and saying well, they're stupid and they're ripping us off. You know the general consensus that a lot of people have. I tend to think that the people in the industry that are making people machines are clever and intelligent people. And also brave too because it is not the easiest business. Pandemic aside, if everyone could do it, they would and we don't see that case. We see companies sometimes come and go. But, you know, the one thing I think about this podcast, the other ones you and I have done, is I think, yeah, we are honest. We are critical when need be. I don't think we're petty at all. And I think it's safe to say, between you and me, we have a lot of knowledge that we do not pass along, whether it be NDAs, whether it be friendships. This is not the podcast where disgruntled employees go to air their sour fucking grapes and tell you how it really is. Of course, the way it really is, is they'd like to still be employed at these companies, but they're not. So they're firing all shots, burning all bridges, and you're just not going to get that on this podcast, or probably most of them. Well, I think it comes back to you and I. I believe we have a similar outlook, and that is what is best for pinball? And is rubbishing a company, is being overly critical good for pinball? It's OK to point out flaws and it's OK to point out delays. It's absolutely OK to point it out. But is it good for pinball? If you're trying to protect people, sure, absolutely. If you're doing it to be because that's your general look at life, then that's just not me. I try to look at things and say, well, what is it that's going to promote pimple? What's going to make it better? What's going to make it more enjoyable for people? And I think that's yours as well. And we do get criticized for being a bit positive. I would argue you more so than me. and I say that respectfully because Pinball Profile is an absolute positive view of the pinball community and the people within it and as it should be. You know what I mean? That was the whole idea and it's not a show that offers opinions. It offers insight into people and it's not different than any other show but that's the mandate with that show. is just, here's this person, here's what they do in pinball, and here's some other interesting things about them. That's it. It might be 15 minutes, it might be an hour long. And many times, it's not somebody you probably know. Certainly you know the designers and the coders and the artists and some of the big tournament players and stuff, but hopefully you're learning some new people as well. Yeah, well, you just had your last episode I just saw come up was with Cassidy. I don't know who that person is. Now I do. Mm-hmm. Number one woman in the world, but also top 100 player in the world, too. 16 years old and just amazing to watch play. She's really sharp, a keen learner. You're going to hear her name for years and years and years. So, yeah, that's a good example, too. And that goes back to being at District 82 where I met so many wonderful players. And I got to see a few more players a week ago, in fact, at the Pinball at the Zoo event in Kalamazoo, Michigan. So that was nice to see that after the three-year hiatus. And the Harmon family does such a wonderful job. It's a smaller show. This Pinball at the Zoo was a really nice Michigan show and well turned out. People from Ohio came, from Illinois, and I guess myself from Canada and elsewhere. But nice to see these things. Can I ask a question about that? Because I've heard about Pinball at the Zoo for many, many years at Kalamazoo. So first thing, I was very disappointed it wasn't actually pinball in a zoo. I'm really just putting it out there. I had to have that clarified. But my question really is Kalamazoo. What is Kalamazoo? City of Michigan. Sure. But what type of city? Is it like a country town? Is it like a big city? I don't know what Kalamazoo is. And why would you go to Kalamazoo besides to play pinball at a zoo? Super small town. Blue collar town. I would say, a lovely downtown area. I want to give a shout-out to this one place. They have this place called One Well Brewing, and it just looks like a little small pub. You go inside, there are 50 unbelievable machines and all kinds. They had Funhaus 2.0 there. They had every new game you could imagine, and not just all the Sterns. They had Halloween. They had Legends of Valhalla. They had everything there. I was really impressed, and good gameplay, too. So, yeah, Kalamazoo, Michigan. I got to talk about one thing that was there. And I'm sorry for throwing out the client's name, but I have to do it because I'm actually a big, big fan. And if you've ever seen me at Cleepin, you know I'm a fan of the restaurant Denny's. Do you know what Denny's is? Okay, I do. I've been to Denny's. Okay, home of the Grand Slam breakfast. If it's your birthday, you get a free meal, all that kind of stuff. Big menu, lots to choose from, not too expensive. It's not gourmet by any means, but it's still good grub at the end of the day because it's 24 hours. Yeah. I went to Denny's in a couple of places, but I remember the Denny's I went to at Vegas was... Oh, yeah, I know that. You know, I'd been to a casino, and it was like, I don't know, maybe 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, because when you're in Vegas, your time, your body clock, whatever it is, just goes completely out. When I normally go to bed at 9.30, I was going to bed at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning. Sure. That's just what it is. And I just remember going to Denny's at something like 3.30 in the morning and having this massive dessert. And it was awesome. I enjoy the food. But one thing I didn't realize about Denny's, and correct me if I'm wrong, listener. Always do. It's a different restaurant late at night. Okay. How so? Sketchy. Yeah, okay. Like you walk in, they say, yeah, half of our staff aren't here, so it might be an hour for you to be served. and not the greatest restaurant late at night and almost maybe a little scary. Right, okay. Yeah. Some of the people that came in were not happy about the service. Like apparently they assumed it was the five-star restaurant that it was. It's not. And would bitch and complain not only to the actual server, but just so everyone else in the restaurant could hear. It was a little scary. And you think I learned my lesson? No, I went there two nights in a row. And again, only thing open. Do you know what the funny thing is? There's probably people sitting in that restaurant going, look at this guy that's just walked in. Fuck this place is sketchy. And they were looking at you. Yeah, that's a good point. Good point. Maybe that's what's happened. But look, I'm in Australia. I don't know whether you were aware of that. Sorry if I'm just springing that on you now. So going over to North America and going to these restaurants, I don't know whether they are budget or highfalutin. I'm a foodie, so I fucking love all food, right? And I do love fine dining. But I appreciate, how would you call it? Because it's not fine dining. It's just, it's not a diner. It's somewhere in between. So like Olive Garden, right, which is a restaurant which is everywhere. It does what it does brilliantly. It fills your app, all right? Yep, yep. It's not shit food. It's not shit food. It's not fine dining. Exactly. It's just you pay for what you get. I would say coming from Australia to there, I think you get more than what you actually pay for because we have tiny portions compared to North America. Well, sorry, Kate Martin. I've never been to a Taco Bell in my life, but I realize that's cheap food and it's kind of filler stuff. And same would be for White Castle in the United States. But there's also a common bond between both those things. You're going to get a lot of potheads that go there because they're looking for the munchies and stuff. I would say Denny's also has that factor too. And I still love it. Denny's, proud sponsor of Final Round. Anyway, it was the one thing that made me laugh. But anyway, the tournament was fun. Have you heard much about Allentown and Pinfest? Yes, I have. Big, big swap. Meat. I'm a guy who goes to shows. I think of the tournament first. The exception would be TPF and Expo, which both have tournaments, but you really go there for the shows. But this would be one where you really go for the swap meet. The food, I hear, is excellent as well. The tournament is different this year. I know Greg Pavarelli and Levy Naiman are going to be running it. The hard thing about that tournament is because they have a hard in and out, what I mean by that is it starts here, and everyone's got to leave the place at a certain time, it's hard to get all your entries in. You are at the mercy of the games being brought in sometimes. Do you think the problem is going to be qualifying, like everybody getting their games in in that one day? It has been because the show is so big, so many people want to enter. So I would imagine the real hardcore tournament players are there as soon as the doors open and they like let go go go go go Levy and Greg are smart guys They know that they can have long playing games so they going to take off rubbers take off ball saves They going to move some posts They're going to make these difficult games. But, again, when you only have 12 games in that lineup, if one goes down, uh-oh, look out. You're in trouble, especially since you're trying to make it a certified event. So I know the show itself will be great, and a lot of our friends are going to that and hopefully picking up some good deals or selling some of their crap. Are you not going to that one? I've never been. And the reason I'm not going is because that same day, the Saturday, the 7th, I'm running. Look at me. I'm running this thing called Maple Mayhem. And what it is is not one, not even two, but three tournaments in one day, Marty. Three. Is this eating maple syrup? No. Is that what it is? Because if it was, I'd be completely interested, right? I would love a maple syrup eating competition. And right now, I would only be satisfied if that's what this story is about. So please continue. Well, I'll continue. It's not about that. We should have brought that up when Orby was on the previous show. He's also a maple guy. No, no. Maple Pinball is the name of the club, the former Church of the Silver Ball, just outside Toronto. So there's going to be three tournaments. If you're a good player, you're going to be there for probably 12 hours, which may seem like a long time, but if you go to any of these shows, 12 hours, that's nothing. Oh, that goes quick. Yeah, yeah. And especially with three different tournaments. 12 hours is a long time when you're playing like crap, but if you're playing like crap in the first four hours, you can go, okay, well, I've got two more tournaments. Will there be waffles with maple syrup? There will not. There will be a lot of pizza. So why are you calling it maple mayhem, was it? Because the mayhem is because there's three tournaments, and it's at a place called Maple Pinball. Okay. Does Maple Pinball have maple syrup? No. Why are they calling themselves Maple Pinball? It's our national tree, the maple tree, and the Toronto Maple Leafs. Missed opportunity. I guess. I guess. Did you want me to call it poutine party? What the hell do you want me to do? Yes. Yes. Except I didn't really dig poutine. Never had it. You haven't. I've never had it. I don't even remember the last time I had maple syrup, to be honest with you. I am, in some people's eyes, the anti-Canadian Canadian. I mean, if you look at what I'm doing with Pinball Pro... Until you open your mouth. Is it that bad? Yeah, it's very Canadian. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. A. Oh, I'll give you A. I say A all the time. Sure, I'll give you that. And you say a boot. No, I've never said it. And... Fuck Rob Frost. Follow him, pinball, at gmail.com. Please write in with audio grabs of every time Jeff has said a boot. Oh. We got a new comedian on the show. His name is Mark Robbins. Yeah, but I still know that I'm not going to make a career out of it. Oh, I never wanted to. Never wanted to. You bite every time. What do you mean I bite? I set it up. I teed it up for you. Yeah. I'm a giver. I'm a giver. Yeah. You. Well. So, hey, here's something I want to talk about. So speaking of pinball being hard. So we've got somebody. It's time for Marty to get hard. Go ahead. It's our new segment. Well, I actually wanted to talk about Ryan McQuaid joining American Pinball. Nice. Because I think that obviously it's a good thing for pinball. It's not like pinball looks or spinball because I think it was based on the video game. Whatever. Looks fantastic. I would love to see it with more playfield art. But other than that, the design looks great. So American Pinball have snapped him up. Yet another person that has made a homebrew game and has now got a job out of it. Well, the same happened for Scott Gullix with Legends of Alhalla. I would say the same for Scott Denisey with TNA and your best friend and the man you wished dead more than once, Keith Elwin. and I think, you know, probably going to be more of that, right? How many more years is Steve Ritchie going to be making games? Or Pat Lawler, Dennis Norbin. I know Dennis is going to have some games come out soon. But again, when I say, how many more years? Are they going to be doing it for 10, 20 years? I don't think 20 years. Hopefully 10. But hopefully, who knows? I mean, they've had such great careers. It's like attrition in anything. You have to bring in some new people as well. Yep. But here's my take on this as well. What happens when you make a homebrew game, there's varying levels of complexity. Some people can take an existing game and do some slight tweaks or they can re-theme an existing game. That's complexity in itself. but you are using an existing layout and existing electronics usually. I'm being a bit general here. Then there's the next level up where you can make a complete homebrew game but it's more of a simple game. Then you've got reaching for the sky complexity where you do have things like Legends of Valhalla and Wrath of Olympus and obviously Sonic Spinball. and why I really appreciate this is because I now know, I now know exactly, exactly what goes into making a pinball machine and not just making a pinball machine, making a pinball machine that works all the time and is fun to play. So for him to be able to do that, there are a lot of skills, a lot of disciplines that he has had to utilise to be able to get that product to where it is. So it makes complete sense that American people have gone, oh shit, here's somebody that knows what they're doing. Let's bring him on board. There are a lot of great whitewood designers and a lot of visionaries. There are a lot of designers that you know by name, that you've seen their machines in arcades that really don't have the engineering side, that know how to make a play field. and that's fine because it isn't just one person. The homebrew person has to do it all. Yeah, all of it. But when you get to a company, I think we heard Keith Owen talk about he cheated when he made Archer and when he got to Stern, they had to reconfigure a few things that were standardized. So again, he had help with that, but I'm excited for Orion. It's one of my favorite things when you go to shows. Do you get that a lot in Australia? Because when we go to shows like Expo, like TPF, and actually there's quite a few at Midwest Gaming as well, you get to see these homebrews, and they're pretty cool. I don't know. Is that something you see in Australia? Yes. Yes, but not everywhere. There's a person that is in Newcastle, somewhere in Newcastle, I think it is. I wish I could remember his name, but something like Cressy. I think it's Cressy. I'm not sure. But he's the one that did the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy homebrew. Oh, yeah. He also did Airplane. He did a – there's a band called Tumbleweed. He did a game. It actually shot really, really well. So, yeah, I really like seeing those as well. But he's really the only person that I've seen. I know that there are some people in Melbourne, in my local area, that are in the process of doing a homebrew game. There was actually, and I don't know whether you did get to play it when you were out here, but there's a guy here called, his name's Grunter, we call him, and he did a machine called Battle Pinny, which is kind of like Joust. It's a head-to-head pinball machine. No, I would like to. One side's blue, one side's red, and it's got magnets as well, so you can pull the magnet to you and fling the ball back. It's so much fun. Look it up, people. It's called Battle Pinny. You'll find it on YouTube. so yeah there is but it's not like north america where there are homebrew everywhere it's pretty impressive and um there's a lot of creative people out there and uh we're going to see more of these i think in the future i'm happy i mean the more pinball the better and the more pinball companies the better because then these games get made and there's competition and all that kind of fun stuff I like it. Switching gears a little bit, I was harassing our good friend Carl D'Python Anghelo on his IE pinball stream. So, Carl, his streams are so unique because you basically are going to see probably a wizard mode or things on pinball machines you're used to that, oh, I've never seen that before. It's exciting. It shows you the potential of what you've got maybe at home or at an arcade. And he got a beta code for Avengers. Did you see that? No. So there's some new achievements in this and that. And he was having trouble spinning the Doctor Strange disc to 800 RPMs. Couldn't do it. Took the glass off, tested it like he logged out of his Stern Insider, and made sure that, okay, can it even go that high? Yeah, he got it that high, but he couldn't do it. So then he started playing with the glass off, couldn't do it. And he was wondering, oh, maybe it's a problem when you're connected. Maybe it's an achievement that doesn't work. He goes, I could take the glass off and do it. Then it would wreck my achievement. I'd get it, but didn't really earn it. I said to him, well, here, I'll send you my QR code. I don't give a crap. You know I don't. Yeah, okay. Send him my QR code. So he throws Red Zeppelin on there, spins it. I'm the first person ever to receive that achievement. It was on stream. I don't care if the glass was off. I don't care if he used his finger. It doesn't matter. The first one with that achievement. Yours truly. And he never, so he goes, oh, I guess it works. He still could never do it. So the chat line was just all about, you know, Red's better than KED. Sorry. It was fun. It was fun. But the achievements, the reason I bring this up is because I've been watching a little bit of the Midwest Gaming Classic. And I saw this firsthand at TPF. I'm sure Scorbit is doing it as well. But what I saw is the Stern Insider Connected Kit. and I just now have my second game with one. And they have these big, big tournaments at their big booth, so at Marco Pinball, and you've got these leaderboards. Let's say you're not into tournaments, or let's say you are competitive. You can go play a few games of that and still see the rest of the show. You don't have to be stuck in a tournament, and then come back and see where you're on the leaderboard. It's pretty fun. It's generating a lot of excitement. It's not achievement-based. It's just all score-based, but you see the leaderboards on every game they've got there. Okay. It's kind of cool. That's cool. Yeah, that is very cool to have that kind of automation. It's better because if you're comparing people, okay, what do I have? And let's see what people have across the nation on their games. You don't know how they're set up. But these are all set up the same, right? So that's the kind of nice thing about it. And they're giving away prizes. I think it's fun. It's one of the things I like about the Stern Insider Connected. There's a lot, but that's one of my favorites. Well, probably another thing I would like to see not only is scores because, you know, I don't play really for score anymore. I play for how far I've gotten through the game and the way we now indicate that is through achievements. So it would be good to actually have a leaderboard of who's got the most achievements on that particular machine at that location. Yeah, you could do that as well, for sure. That'd be cool. I like with some of the new Stern games where you can hold the flippers in and they'll give you basically the wizard mode. Remember the first one I think we really saw, or the first one I remember anyway, was Jurassic Park, and you were describing it. You know, you might not ever get to that wizard mode, but you can, at the start of the game, play the escape. What? Did that? Hmm. I thought you were going to say Ghostbusters. I always felt that Ghostbusters was the first one that had that. Are you a god? I thought Jurassic Park was the first, and then the new code to Ghostbusters added that. I just, yeah, you're probably right. I just, yeah, in my mind, I just felt it was Ghostbusters, but yeah, it could have been Jurassic Park. But yeah, no, it's great to be able to have that. Most Stern games have that, the new ones, and I think it's fun. That's another thing you could do with these, Insider. I mean, you saw them being done. I think Pin Slash, we're using something to that effect, you know, some of those kind of challenges. There's a lot of opportunities. There's certainly a lot of things that can be done, and I know your head's probably spinning because you had to probably put them in Fathom 2.0. Yeah, there is going to be that. Oh, fun, fun, fun. So in fact, there's a Kelts update that's coming out soon that's going to have the ability to do a challenge mode as well. So that's coming. By the way, we should probably give a shout out to TPS, the flagship show of the Pinball Network with Zach and Dennis and, of course, all the wonderful correspondents and all the guest hosts they've had. By the time this show airs, they will be getting ready for their 100th show. And congratulations. That's pretty impressive to be on almost every single week. Good content, a lot of accolades and awards and all that kind of good stuff. So we joke around a lot and we like to brag and boast and really we're just full of shit and we know that we have no one listening to us. but that's a show that I can freaking carry. Yeah, yeah. The Pinball Network. Well, obviously, we did head-to-head more than 100 episodes every week, so I know having to do that over two years is a huge effort and a huge achievement, so well done, guys. Congratulations, indeed. Am I allowed to do a quick plug? My plug? An additional plug. Just quick? Yes, it's a two. Okay. Pretty excited about the announcement of the pinball profile Played in America Tour So, sorry Australia Sorry Canada I'm saying sorry with an extra accent Sorry Europe All the tournament games are going to be done in the United States You might as well have called it a world tour Because there are so many freaking bands That go on a world tour And it's North America No So, you know, B-52s, right? Yep. They are doing their final tour, and I think it's called something like One More Time Around the Planet. Really? It's just North America. No, that's not good. No, and part of the reason I'm doing the United States, I looked at where my travel schedule is. I'm doing a few baseball trips. As you know, I like that sport. And I could go to that arcade. I could go to that arcade. I'm going on a trip with Anne. I could do this. I could do that. I could drive to a few of these places. I'm flying to this tournament and that tournament. Okay. All right. I guess I can figure out up to 14 different places I can go to in the next nine months and contact all the wonderful, wonderful sponsors that made it possible. And, yeah, I'm looking forward to getting this back on the road again. But the big reason to keep it in the United States for this tour is a lot easier for, quite honestly, shipping the prizes and keeping everything in the United States with so many American sponsors. I can tell you, it was a nightmare getting everything. A nightmare and huge expenses, and expenses at a loss to send everything to Australia. It all worked out well. I mean, we had a wonderful time, a lot of people. Great winner. But it was very expensive. Big wiener, did you say? I did, I did. Anyway, I'm looking forward to that So that comes up starting June 5th In Newport, Kentucky At Arcade Legacy, it's going to be great Yeah, you know You know, and listener You know how much I fucking hate Jeff Right? I really dislike him a lot But I just want to preface it by saying that Because I'm about to pay your compliments I just wanted to sort of balance it out It just needs to be stated And I'm sure people realise it But this stuff is not easy for you to facilitate, to coordinate and to put on. And ultimately, who's it benefiting? It's not raising your profile because it's already established. So it's not like it's going to get you a twippy win because I think you've peaked where you're ever going to peak. So you're doing this because you're trying to bring more and more people together in all these locations. So I just wanted to say hats off to you. Congratulations because it was fantastic what you did with the world tour wasn't great what you did in Australia but it's great what you do and you're doing this again to benefit all these people I just say congrats you're well done I know it killed you to say that but thanks Marty you're right it's for everyone else these tournaments everyone's going to walk away with a nice little keepsake shirt and every single prizes and there's almost $1200 in prizing at every single event. Yeah, huge. Every prize is given away at random. I don't care where you finish. If you win, here's your trophy. I like that. I fucking love that. That is so good. I want everyone to have just as much chance, so that's why it brings out everybody. It's not just the tournament players, and it's a fun time. That's great. Yeah, thanks, buddy. That's awesome. Yeah. We have to boogie. You are a busy man at Haggis. Love what you're doing. Keep up the great work. I just want to go to bed. I'm not busy I'm just fucking tired too tired to do a sponsor this week yeah no I've got a kid's birthday party to go to so I'm happy to keep talking no that's not true you liar I'm cutting off because I know you had to leave that's true yeah so thanks everybody for listening if you want to reach out to us please do finalroundpinball.gmail.com at finalroundpin is on twitter finalroundpinballpodcast on instagram and just look up finalroundpinball on Facebook. We will talk to you. Thank you, Josh Sharpe, for joining us. Another great guest on our next episode as we gear up for the World Championship in Fort Myers, Florida, IFPA 17. It'll be a great show. My name's Jeff Hewless. Mine's Martin Robbins. Thanks, everybody, for listening. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 8aa04a0b-9530-437e-aeb0-53a0e8d4456b*