# Episode 1 (Pilot)

**Source:** Special When Lit  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2018-07-02  
**Duration:** 31m 15s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://specialwhenlitpinballpodcast.com/episode-1-pilot

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## Analysis

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb launch Special When Lit, a new pinball podcast from St. Charles, Illinois, focusing on casual discussion of pinball culture, collecting, and games rather than competitive tournament coverage. The hosts discuss their personal entry into the hobby through nostalgia-driven machines (Terminator 2 and Earthshaker), their local St. Charles Pinball Club's rotating pin crawl tournament format, and current market trends for classic and modern pinball machines, while emphasizing a positive community perspective over negativity.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Ken Cromwell bought Terminator 2 in late 2013 for $1,450 in player's condition, and T2 machines now sell for upwards of $3,000 — _Ken Cromwell, direct statement about personal purchase history and current market observation_
- [HIGH] Bill Webb has a collection of 6 pinball machines plus 3 foster machines, including T2, Lethal Weapon 3, Getaway, Fishtails, Adams Family, Star Trek Next Generation, Indiana Jones, and Baywatch — _Bill Webb enumeration of his collection during podcast discussion_
- [HIGH] The St. Charles Pinball Club conducted a pin crawl tournament across members' collections with 28-29 different machines, playing each game once over approximately one month — _Ken and Bill describing their local club's rotating tournament format_
- [HIGH] Stern Pinball is located approximately 30 miles east of St. Charles, Illinois; Jersey Jack and American Pinball are also nearby in the same region — _Ken Cromwell's geographical reference about podcast location relative to major manufacturers_
- [MEDIUM] Dwight Dively (Stern coder) has dropped surprise code updates for ACDC, Batman 66 (bringing it to version 1.0), KISS, and Walking Dead — _Bill Webb and Ken discussing recent Stern code updates; names the coder only implicitly through context_
- [HIGH] Stern's art department includes Dirty Donnie, Zombie Yeti, Christopher Franchi, and Greg Freres as art director — _Bill Webb discussing Stern's art team and their contributions to recent games_
- [MEDIUM] Matt Andrews did artwork for Scott Denise's TNA (from Spooky Pinball) — _Ken and Bill discussing recent artwork on Spooky's TNA machine_
- [HIGH] Baywatch pinball machine pricing has been rising and is now difficult to find — _Bill and Ken discussing secondary market pricing trends for Baywatch_
- [HIGH] Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, based in Illinois, has created a beer called 'Pinball Pale Ale' and is sponsoring the podcast — _Ken and Bill explicitly stating sponsorship and beer product details_
- [HIGH] The Chicago area manufacturing nucleus creates high supply of vintage pinball machines but demand is also high, defying traditional supply-demand price pressure — _Ken Cromwell's analysis of local market dynamics based on manufacturing history in the region_

### Notable Quotes

> "My drinking team has a pinball problem, not my pinball team has a drinking problem."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~early episode
> _Encapsulates the hosts' philosophy about casual, fun-focused pinball culture versus competitive seriousness_

> "When I brought that machine downstairs and as soon as I had turned it on and I heard that opening music after hitting the start button, it literally took me back to Clearwater Mall like I was on my lunch break, plugging my $4, my 16 quarters into the machine."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~mid-episode
> _Illustrates the emotional and nostalgic connection to Earthshaker and why collectors pursue sentimental machines_

> "There is an overabundance of pins in this kind of nucleus of manufacturing. That being said, it doesn't follow the law of supply and demand because where the supply is high here, the demand is high and the prices are high."
> — **Ken Cromwell**, ~mid-late episode
> _Key market insight about Chicago region's pinball economics and pricing anomalies_

> "These guys work on this in their spare time... no one wants to make a game that's half done or half polished."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~late episode
> _Defends code quality and designer commitment despite post-release criticism; indicates designer investment_

> "I think a good collection needs a very simple game that someone that doesn't know pinball can walk up and have a nice, fun game on it, and it's not too deep, and a very deep game."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~late episode
> _Articulates balanced collecting philosophy mixing accessibility and depth_

> "Batman, that one kind of took a hit because the code wasn't where they wanted to be when it was released. But in the last six months, that game has came alive from everybody that owns one and says that that game is just wicked now."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~late episode
> _Documents Batman 66 code redemption arc and post-release update impact on game reception_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Ken Cromwell | person | Co-host of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast; casual collector; entry into hobby via Terminator 2 (2013); part of St. Charles Pinball Club |
| Bill Webb | person | Co-host of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast; casual collector with 6 owned + 3 fostered machines; entry into hobby via Earthshaker; part of St. Charles Pinball Club |
| Special When Lit Pinball Podcast | organization | Newly launched pinball podcast from St. Charles, Illinois, focusing on casual collecting culture and positive community discussion |
| Two Brothers Artisan Brewing | company | Illinois-based brewery; sponsor of Special When Lit; produces Pinball Pale Ale beer; VP of Marketing Bruce Miller planned as future guest |
| Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; located ~30 miles from St. Charles; discussed for art department and recent code updates |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer; office located near St. Charles, Illinois; makes Wizard of Oz and Hobbit games discussed |
| American Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer; located ~10 miles from St. Charles, Illinois |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer; produced TNA machine with artwork by Matt Andrews |
| St. Charles Pinball Club | organization | Local collecting club of ~9-10 members in Illinois; conducted rotating pin crawl tournament across members' collections |
| Steve | person | Member of St. Charles Pinball Club; owns Woodrail pinball and Earthshaker prototype #4; known locally as accomplished competitive player |
| Terry | person | Associated with Pinball Life; recommended Baywatch to Ken Cromwell |
| Brian Kelly | person | Pinball restoration artist; performed restoration on Scared Stiff (HUO condition) that Ken previously owned |
| Dwight Dively | person | Stern code designer; credited with recent surprise updates for ACDC, Batman 66, KISS, and Walking Dead |
| Lyman | person | Stern coder; dropped surprise ACDC code update |
| Greg Freres | person | Stern art director; described as Hall of Fame-level talent |
| Christopher Franchi | person | Artist at Stern working on game design |
| Dirty Donnie | person | Artist for Stern Pinball |
| Zombie Yeti | person | Artist for Stern Pinball |
| Matt Andrews | person | Artist; worked on artwork for Scott Denise's TNA (Spooky Pinball) |
| Scott Denise | person | Designer of TNA for Spooky Pinball |
| Steve Ritchie | person | Legendary pinball designer; described by hosts as 'arguably the best pinball designer of all time'; known for game flow design |
| Terminator 2 | game | 1991 pinball machine; Ken's entry point to hobby via childhood memories; current market value $3,000+; Ken's sentimental keeper |
| Earthshaker | game | 1989 pinball machine; Bill's entry point via nostalgia (Clearwater Mall); Bill recently reacquired prototype #4; sentimental keeper despite not optimally playing |
| Wizard of Oz | game | Jersey Jack Pinball game; discussed as complex ruleset game with deep competitive play |
| Hobbit | game | Jersey Jack Pinball game; discussed as deep, complex game with long ball times; wide-body layout that can play 'floaty' |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Podcast Launch & Format, Personal Collecting Stories & Nostalgia, Vintage Machine Collecting & Secondary Market Pricing, Community Collecting Culture (St. Charles Club, Pin Crawl)
- **Secondary:** Code Updates & Designer Quality, Game Design Philosophy & Flow, Manufacturer Art & Visual Design, Geographic Manufacturing Hub Dynamics, Casual vs Competitive Pinball Culture
- **Mentioned:** Game Complexity & Accessibility

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.82) — Hosts express genuine enthusiasm for pinball community and culture, emphasize positive tone over negativity, celebrate sentimental connections to machines and friendships within local club. Some measured critique of game design choices (e.g., Hobbit's floaty playfield) balanced with appreciation. No hostile sentiment; discussions are collegial and inclusive.

### Signals

- **[content_signal]** Special When Lit Pinball Podcast officially launches with episode 1, positioning itself as a positive, casual-focused alternative to existing pinball media with weekly cadence planned (confidence: high) — Ken and Bill explicitly introduce the new podcast and outline format/philosophy in opening segment
- **[market_signal]** Terminator 2 pricing surged from $1,450 (2013) to $3,000+ (current); Baywatch pricing rising and availability constrained; attributed to nostalgia-driven demand in Chicago manufacturing region (confidence: high) — Ken: 'when I bought my T2 in late 2013...for $1,450...a real nice T2 now is upwards of $3,000'; Bill: 'Baywatch pricing has been going up' and 'hard to find'
- **[code_update]** Stern designers (Dwight, Lyman) releasing surprise code updates for older games: ACDC, Batman 66 (v1.0), KISS, Walking Dead; suggests ongoing investment in polishing released titles (confidence: medium) — Bill: 'Stern's been coming out recently with some surprise codes...Dwight dropped surprise code on ACDC...Batman 66, getting that to version 1.0...KISS code update...Walking Dead, too'
- **[sentiment_shift]** Batman 66 initially criticized for incomplete code at launch but has been revitalized through post-release updates; community perception shifted to very positive over past 6 months (confidence: high) — Bill: 'Batman, that one kind of took a hit because the code wasn't where they wanted to be when it was released. But in the last six months, that game has came alive...that game is just wicked now'
- **[community_signal]** St. Charles Pinball Club (9-10 members) conducting organized pin crawl tournament format with rotating venue play; demonstrates active, organized local collecting community (confidence: high) — Ken and Bill describing pin crawl tournament across club members' houses with 28-29 unique machines, month-long duration, competitive element with handicap discussion
- **[product_strategy]** Stern investing in expanded art team (Dirty Donnie, Zombie Yeti, Christopher Franchi) under veteran director Greg Freres; attracting new artists like Matt Andrews from adjacent industries (confidence: medium) — Bill: 'Stern's art department...you've got Dirty Donnie, Zombie Yeti, Christopher Franchi...Greg Freres...Hall of Fame'; Ken discussing Matt Andrews as 'getting his feet wet now into pinball'
- **[market_signal]** Chicago manufacturing hub exhibits inverted supply-demand curve: high supply + high demand = high prices, contradicting traditional economics; local collector networks essential for value deals (confidence: high) — Ken: 'where the supply is high here, the demand is high and the prices are high...there's not a whole lot of great deals to be had unless you've got a club of buddies'
- **[design_philosophy]** Hosts articulate dichotomy between fast/tight playfields (Star Wars, Steve Ritchie designs) versus slow/floaty/deep ruleset games (Hobbit); both valid; good collections mix accessibility with depth (confidence: high) — Bill: 'Star Wars plays fast' vs Hobbit 'a 30-minute game and be relaxed playing it...polar opposites as far as speed'; Ken emphasizing balanced collections needing both simple and deep games
- **[design_innovation]** Discussion of Hobbit's wide-body layout tendency to play 'floaty' due to central mech closures; suggests wide-body format has distinct mechanical/flow characteristics (confidence: medium) — Bill: 'with Hobbit, because it is a wide body, it can kind of play floaty...mechs that pop up in the middle kind of close that play field'
- **[industry_signal]** Hosts argue that code designers maintain post-release investment in their games because personal reputation is at stake; designers work in spare time; unwilling to 'phone it in' (confidence: medium) — Bill: 'their name is associated with each one of these pinball machines...nobody wants to phone it in, go home, and be like, well, that was a dud...These guys work on this in their spare time'
- **[community_signal]** Two Brothers Artisan Brewing sponsoring new podcast, with VP of Marketing Bruce Miller booked for future episode; suggests brewery viewing pinball community as viable market (confidence: high) — Ken: 'we are sponsored by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing...Bruce Miller, who's the vice president of Marking at Two Brothers, he's going to join us on a future show'

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## Transcript

 The Special When Lit Pinball Podcast is brought to you by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, makers of Pinball Pal Al, because nothing goes better together than pinball and a beer. Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Thanks for hitting that start button. Here are your hosts, Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb. Hey everybody and welcome to episode number one of this special when lit pinball podcast. My name is Ken Cromwell. To my right is my co-host Bill Webb. This is episode one of what we hope is going to be several episodes of a pinball podcast which kind of encompasses a little bit of everything as it pertains to pinball. Bill, what's going on buddy? How are you? Oh, we're good. We're good. Just hanging out, staring at a bunch of wonderful pinball machines and looking to talk about pinball since we do it every day anyway. That's kind of what happened I guess. Myself and Bill, we've been talking. We've been buddies for a while. We've been talking about pinball just about every single day. And we thought to ourselves, you know what? It might be kind of fun just to kind of record a little bit about what we talk about. And maybe other people will find it interesting as well. I know there's a lot of pinball podcasts that can be reached everywhere. And not to say ours is going to be anything that's completely different, but I think that we'll have interesting content and we'll try to stay current on a weekly basis. And different perspectives on the hobby. And not everything needs to be new. Not everything needs to be old. Not everything's tournament. That's true. And trying to keep a positive spin on things. After all, it is pinball. It is a hobby. These are games more so than investments for a lot of people. We've listened to other podcasts. Some are very good. Some are informative. Some are just a different perspective and other people's opinions. And it doesn't mean that everyone's opinion has to be good or bad. We thought we could do one that might shed other light on different areas that other people don't cover. So that's a big part of the reason why we're doing this. Agreed. You're going to get pertinent news. Our effort is to do this on at least a weekly basis. We can kind of touch base with everybody on what's going on and keep you up to date in the news as far as pinball goes. Secondly, this is not going to be a tournament coverage podcast where I have respect for tournament pinball. That's not something that I personally am into as far as reporting on or discussing. I'm not necessarily a competitive pinball player. I can hold my own, but that's not the part of the hobby that really reaches out to me. Yeah, and, you know, with that said, it's all relative. You know, we're great when, you know, we're playing nonprofessional players, but, you know, we play against somebody that's, you know, does it professionally or is ranked, and we're going to lose. Right, yeah, I've got a better idea of having fun than getting mopped up. And I've been in situations where there was a local guy here, and he's currently a nationally ranked, internationally ranked competitive pinball player. I remember the first time going to his house, and he had an unbelievable collection of about 20 pins in the basement. And the two games that I was there that I really wanted to see at the time were the two Jersey Jack games, and the first was Wizard of Oz, the second was Hobbit. Nice. And I remember being impressed seeing them for the first time and just realizing that it looks like it's probably a complicated rule set. So he comes by. He's like, well, here, let me kind of walk you through the rules. I watched him play for 45 minutes on Wizard of Oz, and that was one game. And then at that point, I didn't feel like I needed to play because I had pretty much seen more than I would ever get to at that sitting. So he brings me over to Hobbit, and that was like another 45 minutes. And it's funny because I've owned Hobbit, and it's a great game, and I've been able to put up 45-minute games on Hobbit, and that's not anything impressive because it tends to lend itself to longer ball times with multi-balls and extra balls, and I suppose you can go in and change the settings. But it definitely, again, competitive pinball playing is for somebody else, not for me. Yeah, I like to look at it as my drinking team has a pinball problem, not my pinball team has a drinking problem. Right, exactly, exactly. There's nothing better than a beer while you're playing pinball, which is as long as you don't have more than a few beers in a short amount of time. This is where we promote Uber and drinking responsibly. We can pick them up as a sponsor. Speaking of sponsors, we are sponsored by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, and they are out here in Illinois. They've got the Pinball Pale Ale, which is a beer, which is awesome. Yes, very awesome. It was really kind of them to sponsor this podcast. Actually, it's kind of another funny story of how that pinball name came to be, which we can cover at a different time. Absolutely. Bruce Miller, who's the vice president of Marking at Two Brothers, he's going to join us on a future show. And that brings up interviews, interviews with our podcast. I think at least my approach on this is to really kind of get with you on a weekly basis and go over anything that's important and just kind of generally discuss what's going on. But I do like the idea of having people in. With us being so close to these pinball facilities, we're about 30 miles west of Stern Pinball, 25 miles west of Stern. And then you've got the Jersey Jack office that's out here, too, which is right next to the street. We've got American Pinball that's very, very close. That's 10 miles from here. Exactly. So depending on how those guys view our podcast or listen to our podcast, it would be great to kind of get those guys on the show and talk about their products and about what they're doing in pinball. Yep. And honestly, I think a big thing about doing this podcast was there's a lot of negativity in some podcasts, and that's not something we thrive off of. I mean, if something's bad in the hobby, something's bad in the hobby. But, you know, we don't need to thrive on the negativity, you know, and that's kind of where a big part of this is is more positive stuff instead of negative stuff. Not every theme is going to pull everybody in. Not every feature is going to pull everybody in. and just a different take on it from what we've experienced in the listings of other podcasts. I agree. I'd like to keep it positive as well. That being said, there is a place and a time for negativity, I think. You can't be positive all the time. Absolutely. I know that I can't. I have a problem being positive all the time, but I think talking about something that's in a negative way and still being respectful of other people is important. And I know that between our conversations that we've had with pinball, we haven't had any problem pulling any punches when we thought that they were deserved. That being said, anybody that's doing this for a living or, you know, as a hobby or contributing in any sort of way has a level of respect for me. Terminator 2, that was one of the pins that kind of drew you into the hobby initially, right? Correct. Actually, it was kind of a funny story because when I was about 12, down the street, they just started getting pinball machines at this hot dog place down the street from my house. So one summer, I would borrow quarters occasionally, like every day from my dad. Borrow them. Borrow them, yeah. Where are my quarters? I just borrowed them, Dad. Of returning. Playing some pinball, right. And after about three months of this, towards the end of summer, he went to look at his change jar and realized that I had borrowed quite a bit of money out of the change jar. It's a significant borrowing. Which is one of the reasons why when I got into the hobby in 2013, that was the first game that I bought because of the memories with my father and that being the game that pulled me in and cemented my love for pinball. Right. Okay, so you kind of jumped in as a hobbyist slash collector in around 2013. Correct. Okay. But the hobby goes beyond just purchasing and collecting because you the type of person that you very meticulous about the machines that you own And I know that from personal experience I seen some of the unbelievable cabinets that you built literally from scratch with your own templates that rival, if not are better than some cabinets that I've seen offered on today's standards. And these are built to spec. And I appreciate that. No, yeah, and honestly, when certain games show up and you love them, you want them to be absolutely immaculate. And if you have the capability and the time to make them perfect, you will, especially when they're themes that you know they're priceless. Now, my T2, that's a $2,000-plus game if you were to throw a price on it. But to me, that game is priceless. That game won't leave my collection because it's the sentimental value attached to it. That said, it needs to be the nicest version that I can possibly make it for me to be happy that it's in my collection. And here, you have a very similar story with Earthshaker. If you could tell us about your Earthshaker. Yeah, so Earthshaker, and this is how I got in the hobby. I had lived in Florida in my late teens, early 20s, and I was working out there. And on break, I would go to Clearwater Mall, and I'd jump in this little arcade machine or this arcade, and they had an Earthshaker there. And I remember every day on my lunch, it was like $6 for lunch, and the other $4 would go in the Earthshaker. And I played it and played it and played it and played it and played it. And when I had moved back, I didn't really think about pinball really ever again. And then I remember around 2013 thinking to myself, I would love to get a pinball machine. I'm going to have to find an earth shaker. I found one locally. I was able to grab one. And just the memories, the nostalgia, like when I brought that machine downstairs and as soon as I had turned it on and I heard that opening music after hitting the start button, it literally took me back to Clearwater Mall like I was on my lunch break, plugging my $4, my 16 quarters into the machine. and just a big grin on my face, you know, just thinking to myself, this is so awesome, and I don't have to pay four bucks every day. I can play this as long as I want to. Yeah, yeah. Well, you put your more than $4 into getting it. Yeah, you're right, you're right. Over the course of time, absolutely a little bit more than $4. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. When I go downstairs to fire up T2 or any of the other games, I'll throw on Sublime or any of those 90s bands just because it's very sentimental and you can almost feel like you're a kid again waiting for your parents to scream at you, get home. The 90s rock, like grunge rock, alternative rock, I guess now it's almost like a classic rock. At one point, I'm going to walk into my kid's room. He's going to be listening to Pearl Jam. Dad, have you heard of Pearl Jam? I'd be like, oh, yeah, actually, I have. I remember that when they came out. How old are you? We're that old. It came out right after the Beatles, Pearl Jam. It's funny, too, because I owned Earthshaker. I ended up wanting to get further into the hobby. And in order for me to do that, I had to sell a machine. And I think a lot of us have started at this level where if you had an opportunity to keep everything, you would keep everything. But there are two factors that prevent you from doing so. The first is for a lot of people cash. Money. And then the second is the space. Yep. So I'm not privy to having enough space for 30 machines. So for me to bring something else in, which eventually was my first DMD game, which was Judge Dredd, which I still think is a pretty fun game, especially how it's priced. I had to get rid of Earthshaker and when Earthshaker left I had played it enough where I didn't think I was going to miss it I rolled right into Judge Dredd, it was a fun playing game and I'm like man, this is the best pinball machine that's ever been created it's so awesome but long story short, everything comes full circle and just recently, a couple months ago I was able to find another Earthshaker because I realized that that was something sentimentally I want to keep I want to have for as long as I can And I ended up buying prototype number four from a local collector of ours. His name is Steve. And so I actually have that here now, and it's got the sinking building. And I'm pretty pumped up. And it takes up right now 25% of the space that I have in my row. Does it outplay anything else that I've owned? Not necessarily, but the amount of enjoyment I get when I come down and I can plunge that ball is, you know, insurmountable by anything else that I've had. Yep. Well, and you know what? I mean, that just goes to show. I mean, honestly, you've had Star Wars, you've had Ghostbusters, you've had Dialed In, you've had Attack from Mars, LE Remake, Scared Stiff, Twilight Zone. Two Scared Stiffs. Two Scared Stiffs. Yeah. Two Twilight Zones. Two Twilight Zones. Everything is better in doubles, you know? Right. Well, you know what? And my theory on this was with my limited amount of space, before things get crazy in my life, I want to be able to play as many games as I can in a home environment and then try to figure out what my keepers are. But now I'm realizing that almost everything that I've owned could potentially be a keeper, depending on what's going on. And you've got a pretty substantial collection, I know, at your place, too. Yeah, I've got six of my own, and I've got three pins that people are letting me foster for now. Foster? Foster's a good word. I have fostered pins myself. Fostering's a good deal. There's nothing more rewarding than fostering somebody else's pinball machine. As long as it's working. Yeah, as long as it's working, you're good. When you're fostering broken stuff, that kind of, you know. Right. Yeah, you're just like, yeah, can you get this out now or get it working? Exactly. Exactly. It's moving along. But, yeah, no, I got, in my collection, I got a T2. Let me think about this. I got a Lethal Weapon 3. You're putting it on the spot now. You have to. Yeah, I know. Now I got to think about this. A Lethal Weapon 3. Well, I just changed the whole row. Lethal Weapon 3, a T2, Getaway, Fishtails, Adam's Family, Star Trek Next Generation, Indiana Jones, Baywatch. Baywatch. And I think I'm missing something else. The unsung hero of pinball machines is Baywatch. Awesome value pin. It is an awesome value. If you can find them, which is hard. It's hard now. Yeah. I mean, the pricing on Baywatch has been going up, and we kind of were in before it started jumping. Yeah, you sold me yours at a great price, and yeah, that one's not leaving the collection. And honestly, I've only ever sold one pin. And right beyond that was Terry at Pinball Life. He's like, Baywatch is a great game. You've got to get on a Baywatch. And I'm like, Terry, you're crazy. Yeah. Oh, he was right. I played his, and I was like, man, I've got to get one of these. And then you found one, and you played it, and then Attack from Mars was coming, so you had to get rid of it. So I was like, I'll buy it from you. So that one's still in the collection. And the only other game that I've ever had that I sold was an F-14. F-14, System 11. System 11, yeah. A, B? I think it's C. C? same as elvira and the party monsters yeah yeah um but uh well see i'm glad we're talking about these older pins too a lot of this is just kind of an introductory so that you guys that are listening can kind of get an idea of our backgrounds and our personalities a little bit uh future episodes we'll be concentrating more on things that are happening yeah on a timely basis and we'll have a segmented show that that kind of makes sense so pardon our uh our dust our construction well no and and also on future podcasts you know we plan on covering you know like the older pins which you don't really hear a whole lot about, you know, which is a better value, a Judge Dredd or a Demolition Man, you know, which is the better value wide-body pin, and things like that. Absolutely. And that was something that was important to you when we got into the podcast. I mean, it was one thing to talk about what's going on currently, but you want to be able to kind of go over these pins that have existed over the past 30, 40 years and give them their due time as well. Well, yeah, and if you look at the market, you know, the older pins, you know, I know when I bought my T2 in late 2013, I bought a player's condition or less than, and it was $1,450, which I thought was kind of high. But looking at the values now, and I've done a lot of work to it, they're just flying through the roof. I mean, a real nice T2 now is upwards of $3,000. Yeah, and I've seen them locally. I mean out of Chicago we in a weird kind of spot because most of these games at some point came out of our area Yeah So there is an overabundance of pins in this kind of nucleus of manufacturing That being said, it doesn't follow the law of supply and demand because where the supply is high here, the demand is high and the prices are high. I mean, there's not a whole lot of great deals to be had unless you've got a club of buddies that are able to kind of look out for one another, look out for titles that we're all looking for. And that's where our St. Charles Pinball Club, which is like a collection of 9, 10 guys, we've really kind of looked out for each other. And we've kind of divided and conquered as far as trying to get collections that encompass a pretty big area. Like our buddy Steve, he's got a Woodrail pinball in his collection, which is kind of crazy. You know, we've had things as more recent as like new in-box purchases that are always fun to kind of bust open and play. Well, in our rotating pinball crawl, which was, you know, we wanted to go by everybody's house that had pinball machines. That's our pub crawl. Oh, pub crawl. Pin crawl. Pin crawl. Pin crawl. And we wanted to go by everybody's house and not play the same game twice. You know, we had a couple of getaways in the club. We had a couple of Revenge from Marses in the club, even a couple of Medievals. But we did not want to play the same game twice. And I think we were, what, 28 or 29? Right, right. Different pins. We were scoring on all of those pins, and we kind of split up nights where we kind of had a tournament, essentially, that took a few weeks to kind of get through. Yeah, that took, I think, a month, right? Yeah, and that was fun. Yeah. Well, until the same person wins every week. But, you know, we love him, so it's fine. And, yeah, he knows who he is. Yeah, we're going to handicap him pretty good next time. He's tonight running his own talk, actually. Yeah, yeah. A live podcast in front of people. Exactly. He's into some live coaching right now. So he's on his way. He is. He is. Very proud of him. Absolutely. Pinball is his outlet, so he let us know that he's going to make sure everything's dialed in so we can host in the next couple weeks. Exactly. Right, which will be good. That theater magic trunk. Yeah, you know, it kind of stinks when you get ready for the multi-ball and I'm the pin crawl. That's okay, though. You know, that doesn't work. Right. It's okay. It's okay. We've all been there. I've had stuff fly off play fields when I'm playing. There's not a worse feeling than when you're playing something and then you see some foreign object sliding down the play field, you're like, man, that's not good. 20 minutes before everyone shows up or 20 minutes after something breaks and you're like, you know, if I would have just had a day and this would have broke two days ago, we would have been fine. You know what happens? Like DMDs always seem to go whenever I've got something going on. Like is that outgassing or is there a ribbon cable that's coming loose? That's happened a few times. Yeah. I'm looking right now, but I have no outgassing. No, no. They all look good right now. In the two brothers pinball pale ale studio here. when we are graced by an earth shaker a x files and a twilight zone right so this and a golden t 2018 mass value in the golden t 2018 my collection right now as it stands is probably the lowest as far as uh money value but i'm getting the biggest bang for my buck because i'm playing these pins and i'm i'm just totally loving right now and i was telling bill this story uh like the other week um i was kind of a little bit disappointed because it wasn't so far or so long ago where I did have like a medieval madness down here. I did have, Dialed In was pretty recent. I had a Brian Kelly restored Scared Stiff, which was H-U-O. And shout out to Brian because he does unbelievable work. That pin was so beautiful that I felt guilty walking around it. And I've got kids. And when I came downstairs and I saw like the Motz apple juice box on the glass, I knew that this was not a good time to be owning a Brian Kelly HUL restored anything. So I had to get out of the high pin collectible that I had sought after for so long. And Ghostbusters? Ghostbusters was a great pin, and I would love to get a Ghostbusters back. And I know Dwight, he did a good job on that code, and I guess potentially he could update that code still. Because Stern's been coming out recently with some surprise codes. I know Lyman dropped surprise code on ACDC. He's still dropping code on Batman 66, getting that to version 1.0. Well, not long ago they did a KISS code update. That's right. That's right. People have been asking for KISS code for a long time. Didn't he sneak some Walking Dead, too? I think he did. A pretty significant surprise update for Walking Dead. Because I know a lot of people kind of consider that a pretty polished, complete pin as it is. So, you know, these coders can surprise you. Just because Stern isn't announcing that they're currently working on something doesn't mean that these guys are giving up on these pins. you have to realize that their name is associated with each one of these pinball machines. So I'm sure that nobody wants to phone it in, go home, and be like, well, that was a dud. I'm just going to go on to the next one. These guys work on this in their spare time. Yeah, no, and you know what? That's the thing. No one wants to make a game that's half done or half polished. And like Batman, that one kind of took a hit because the code wasn't where they wanted to be when it was released. But in the last six months, that game has came alive from everybody that owns one and says that that game is just wicked now and everyone should get one. Right. You know, I mean, when people are coding these things, they're invested. So, you know, it's funny to see people say, oh, the code isn't this or that. Well, you know, I don't know. It's personal preference. It is personal preference. I mean, and that's another interesting point where you get into how far is too far when it gets into code intricacy. yeah um and and just to use star wars as an example because you know as a as an owner of a star wars i could realize where it could be a little overwhelming if you were to walk up to a star wars machine without having a lot of pinball background or even with some significant pinball background to try to figure out what's going on but i think that's true for most pins when you step up to it for the first time there's a there's a learning curve yeah um star wars i think was unique, whereas you could play that game to progress through the storyline and have a really fun time, or you could play that game to complete modes and to go for points, and you could do a combination of that. So, whereas you might not know what the code is coming right off, you can still have a pretty good time just kind of feeling your way through. It's a good location game. In my opinion, it's like an even better home use game because you're able to kind of really study what's happening, and always Just playing multiplayer games and watching somebody else play a game is a super easy way to try to figure out what's going on, too. Try to look up at the LCD or the DMD and then look at the play field. Yeah. And that brings up another good point. And that's where I think some of the novelty on the older stuff, because they're simpler, some of those games tug at people's heartstrings. I have people that come to the house and they're like, wow, I haven't seen a T2 in 20 years. It's like, thanks for dating me. But yeah, and they love how simple it is. You can explain stuff like that. But, you know, I mean, I think a good collection needs a very simple game that, you know, someone that doesn't know pinball can walk up and have a nice, fun game on it, and it's not too deep, and, you know, a very deep game. Your Fishtails is kind of something like that, where you can kind of walk up, get to know the rule set. It's a fun, it's an attractive game. The topper is awesome. Yep. It just looks great. It plays fun. Fishtails, I think, is a fun pin. It is a fun pin. You know, I think a lot of those early 90s, and that's why I think the value is climbing up, because people love that old nostalgia and it pulls at the heartstrings and they're not super deep games. That said, you know, I'd love to have a Hobbit sooner or later because it is a deep game and, you know, that would be a great game to master, which I don't think anybody will, but, you know, it's... Hobbit is a great game. I had Hobbit for a while. The thing with Hobbit was that it could have long ball times, which for some people that fine for me with a small collection I guess Hobbit not the ideal multiplayer game or tournament game because literally a four player game could go an hour and a half Well yeah because we start a four player game at seven and finish at round eight. Right. And it's fun but I mean there's a good feeling of going downstairs and if you've seen the movies you can really kind of immerse yourself into the theme and into the LCD integration. The music's incredible. The code is fun. A lot of people complain about it's kind of a very open wide body layout and the mechs that pop up in the middle kind of close that play field to block those multi-ball shots so it does kind of make that play field a little bit smaller. But any fast game though is going to be open because you need that for the flow, I think. From the ones that I've seen I should say. Sure. Well I mean Steve Ritchie has a lot of I mean he's the king of flow and his play fields aren't terribly populated in your face No. And he's established himself as arguably the best pinball designer of all time. Yep. So, I mean, he must be doing something right. I just think with Hobbit, because it is a wide body, it can kind of play floaty. And you know what? I think that's okay, too, though. I don't mind that so much. I need a break. I don't want to sit down in front of a pinball machine and be flying by the seat of my pants every single time. Sometimes I just want to veg out, and I want to flip, and I want to play some multiball, and I want to go through a storyline, almost like you're progressing through a video game or a story, versus 40 seconds of panic. And if you threw Star Wars next to Hobbit, dude, you've got a game that plays fast, and if you're not careful, you'll be done in three minutes. Yeah, polar opposites as far as speed. Yeah, you could have a 30-minute game and be relaxed playing it. So, I mean, it's two different spectrums. Right. So what's going on? Let me ask you this. There's more pinball companies now than there's been in any recent memory, really. Of the pinball machines that are being offered now, is there anything out there that if you were thinking, you know what, anything that's on the line that I'd like to grab, what would you be looking at? Considering my basement is full, I'm not in the market, but if I was in the market to buy a brand new pin. Assuming you're in the market. Assuming you had an open space and you had a blank checkbook of, let's say, up to $12,500. I like that one. So either a Star Wars premium because the LEs are gone, a Ghostbusters premium. One of the big appeals to Ghostbusters is just the artwork on that game. You don't have to turn it on and just appreciate how much love went into that game. It's awesome. And Stern, if you think about their art department in general, and I don't want to be Stern-heavy necessarily. It just so happens that this is kind of where the conversation is going. But you've got Dirty Donnie. You've got Zombie Yeti. You've got Christopher Franchi that is doing design with them. And then these guys are under art direction of Greg Freres, who's just Hall of Fame. Oh, yeah. Well, he's been around forever. Yeah. That's huge. But now you've got other artists. You've got, is it Matt Andrews that just did the work for Scott Denise's TNA? I believe you're right. From Spooky Pinball. That's a guy that's getting his feet wet now into pinball, so you don't know where that's going to go. I think that was a great game, too, for the artwork and layout. I think he did a good job on that pin. Yeah, you know what? Everybody kind of formulated what they thought, because that white wood was all that people had seen in the homebrew section of these pinball shows for years, right? Yep. So everybody kind of got used to the white wood. In fact, I know there's a following of people that are like, man, I would just like to have the white wood just as it was, like without the artwork. Not because the artwork's bad, but that's just what they kind of... That's what they played on, and that's what they would love to see again. Nostalgia, right? Just what we were talking about. Maybe that's another version of TNA that they should do, a special edition Whitewood with the Sharpie marks all over it. Scott's Sharpie. Scott's Sharpie all over it. Scott's Sharpie was on eBay at some point, and it was like commanding six figures, so it was pretty impressive. It wouldn't surprise me. Well, you notice on those inserts, too, on TNA, they do kind of have like a written script, like marker kind of font to them. So I think that paid homage to kind of what he did originally with his Whitewoods, which is, you know, that whole story is pretty interesting. And we can get into that another day. Maybe Scott would like to come on the show at some point and talk about what's going on with production over there. See if we can get him to do a Whitewood version. A Vault version being a Whitewood. Limited edition, like 25 whitewood pins. I don't know. I bet they would sell. To be real honest with you, I would almost guarantee that if Spooky Pinball said, hey, we're going to do, just as a commemorative thing, maybe at the two-year mark or five-year mark, we're just going to put out 25 of these whitewood editions. Yep. Throw that signature on the play field, put it under the clear coat, and yeah, I mean, that's like a little vault edition. Maybe we'll get some money from that. Right, the residuals. Coming up with the idea. Exactly, exactly. I'm excited. I'm going to have to draft something up. You heard it here first on the Special Wendland Pinball Podcast. Exactly. Right, right. So I guess at this point, if you're still listening, that's not a horrible sign for us. No, no. We bounce around a lot. Here, we had a list of things we wanted to cover, which I think we might have gotten maybe to half-ish. I don't know that we even, yeah, so much for the show outline. Heavy on the ish. But hopefully it was entertaining and you guys could relate as well. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Anything else you're thinking of right now before we sign this one off? You know, honestly, just thinking about, we were talking about pins that we had and one that's terrible and I would hate bringing it in the basement because I know I wouldn't play it, but it would be Cactus Jack's pinball. Cactus Jack's, you've spoken of the Cactus Jack's for quite a long time. You don't need Cactus Canyon. Cactus Jack's is a good runner-up. Cactus Jack's. I mean, they're on opposite spectrums of the top 300 of Pinside, so, you know. Right, right. Not bad. And Pinside, for those that don't know that might be listening to the podcast, Pinside is like an online forum group for pinball enthusiasts and collectors. So there's a lot of topics that are being discussed there on literally a minute-to-minute basis. It's just a huge online forum group, and it's international. So I would recommend if you get a chance, go over there and kind of check that out. and you will have your negative nancies but you'll have your positive supporters too just like anything else i suppose and anything is only as good as you make it that's true and take away from it that's true so what do you think you want to try to do another one of these absolutely soon absolutely we can get somebody on the show we got to get bruce so you guys can tell the story of how uh bruce beer came to life from from two brothers artisan brewing yeah and uh they are makers of the pinball pale ale which is a beer which i've been sipping on throughout the podcast So have I. Yeah, absolutely. Can't go wrong. But listen, guys, we appreciate the listen. We're going to kind of sign this one off for today, and then we should be back within the next few days. We're going to see what's going on in the world of pinball. If you have any questions, you can actually reach us at specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. You can also go on our Facebook page, also specialwhenlitpinballpodcast. Go ahead and leave us some feedback, ask some questions. We'll be happy to get back to you. Maybe not on the show, but we can interact on that Facebook page and definitely with direct email. Bill, I appreciate everything today. Ken, I appreciate you setting this all up, man. Absolutely, buddy. I feel good about this one. So do I. So do I. I look forward to seeing the responses from it. We'll see where it goes, guys. Thanks for listening. We're going to take care. You're going to take care. We're going to get out of here. Yeah, we're going to go play some pinball. Have a good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time you wind up listening. For Bill Webb, I'm Ken Cromwell for the Special Wind Lit Pinball Podcast. We'll talk to you next time.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 8af4b401-d420-4ea9-957b-45b93ca93b25*