# Episode 819: "Haggis & The Pinball Charade Continue"

**Source:** Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2023-07-05  
**Duration:** 17m 11s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-819-85621544

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## Analysis

Kaneda delivers a scathing critique of Haggis Pinball's business practices, specifically condemning the July 4th announcement of Centaurs (Beast Edition $10k/250 units, Oblivion Edition $17k/50 units) while Fathom orders remain unfulfilled after nearly two years. He argues distributors and content creators are irresponsibly hyping pre-orders without accountability, and criticizes the broader pinball industry for normalized FOMO-driven non-refundable deposits instead of customer-first financing models.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] Haggis Pinball has not fulfilled half of Fathom orders after nearly two years — _Kaneda directly states this as the core problem justifying his critique_
- [HIGH] Centaurs Beast Edition is $10,000 for 250 units; Oblivion Edition is $17,000 for 50 units — _Kaneda explicitly cites these prices and production quantities announced July 4th_
- [MEDIUM] Centaur original production was approximately 3,800 units — _Kaneda references this as context for rarity of original Centaurs_
- [HIGH] Non-refundable deposits are requested on July 12th but game pre-orders don't open for sale until that date — _Kaneda emphasizes the contradiction: announcement July 4th, sales open July 12th_
- [MEDIUM] Jersey Jack Pinball and American Pinball secured external investors; Haggis uses pre-order money as self-financing — _Kaneda contrasts Haggis with JJP (investor found) and American Pinball (funded by Ametron)_
- [HIGH] Distributors are taking pre-orders for Centaurs despite not fulfilling all Fathom orders — _Kaneda names this as primary hypocrisy of distributors taking money_
- [MEDIUM] A major Stern announcement is expected within 8 days of July 12th, which is Haggis's strategy window to capture money — _Kaneda speculates this timing pressure explains why Haggis announced on July 4th holiday_
- [HIGH] Secondary market prices for Centaurs trading hands are $6,000-$8,000 on Pinside Marketplace — _Kaneda directly observes marketplace listings at time of episode_

### Notable Quotes

> "Why are you even revealing this game if you haven't even built half of the fathom orders after almost two years of having fathom orders with customers?"
> — **Kaneda**, mid-episode
> _Core rhetorical question summarizing the main hypocrisy he's attacking_

> "If you give non-refundable pre-order money to these companies, you are now an investor in Haggis Pinball. You didn't buy a game. The game's not even made."
> — **Kaneda**, mid-to-late episode
> _Reframes the financial relationship and warns buyers they're financing, not purchasing_

> "If you want this game, buy this game after it's made. How about that?"
> — **Kaneda**, late episode
> _States his central recommendation directly_

> "There is something rotten in the state of Denmark, as Shakespeare would say. What is happening to this hobby?"
> — **Kaneda**, early-mid episode
> _Signals broader industry malaise beyond just Haggis_

> "I don't see anybody, and I mean this, anybody in the pinball content world looking out for the customers asking these questions."
> — **Kaneda**, late episode
> _Explicitly criticizes other content creators for not holding companies accountable_

> "Kerry, really? at $17,000. They made it real easy not to buy the game, bro. Did everyone make millions on Dogecoin?"
> — **Kaneda**, mid-episode
> _Direct sarcastic rebuke of Kerry Hardy's positive messaging; questions market rationality_

> "If Haggis Pinball needs cash today, go to a bank and get a loan. Go find investors in pinball."
> — **Kaneda**, late-mid episode
> _Proposes alternative financing models that don't burden consumers_

> "If you wait and you see how it all plays out, you will be at an advantageous position."
> — **Kaneda**, final section
> _Capstone advice distilling his decade of industry observation_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Kaneda | person | Host of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast; established industry critic and voice on consumer protection in pinball pre-orders |
| Haggis Pinball | company | Australian boutique pinball manufacturer announcing Centaurs remake (Beast/Oblivion editions); subject of critique for unfulfilled Fathom orders and pre-order business model |
| Damien Harton | person | Founder/operator of Haggis Pinball; identified as self-financing (implicitly through customer pre-orders) rather than securing external investment |
| Kerry Hardy | person | Content creator wearing Haggis hat and promoting Centaurs as must-buy; directly criticized by Kaneda for hyping $17k Oblivion Edition |
| Centaurs | game | Haggis Pinball remake of classic 1981 Centaur; announced July 4, 2023 with Beast Edition ($10k, 250 units) and Oblivion Edition ($17k, 50 units) |
| Fathom Revisited | game | Previous Haggis Pinball remake; still has unfulfilled pre-orders after ~2 years; Mermaid Edition was limited to 250 units at $10k |
| Stern Pinball | company | Major manufacturer expected to announce new game ~July 20, 2023; framed as competitive threat to Haggis's July 12 pre-order window |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Referenced as example of manufacturer securing external investor rather than using pre-order money for self-financing |
| American Pinball | company | Referenced as funded by Ametron (external investor); contrasted with Haggis's pre-order model |
| Chicago Gaming Company | company | Referenced as successful remake publisher of Monster Bash, Medieval Madness, and Attack from Mars at prices below restoration costs |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Referenced as manufacturer where secondary market pricing is $2,000 less than original pre-order pricing (Scooby-Doo example) |
| Godfather | game | Referenced as example of game initially hyped at $12k pre-order price, later available for $2k less on secondary market |
| Scooby-Doo | game | Referenced as current example of Spooky game where secondary market undercuts pre-order pricing by $2k |
| Pinside Marketplace | organization | Online marketplace where Centaurs are trading hands at $6k-$8k; Kaneda observes listings directly |
| Knucklehead | person | Pinside user selling Godfather CE; example of buyer who committed without testing game and now regrets |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Pre-order business model and consumer risk, Haggis Pinball's manufacturing delays and unfulfilled Fathom orders, Centaurs (Haggis remake) announcement and pricing, Content creator accountability and shill culture
- **Secondary:** FOMO-driven collector behavior and market rationality, Non-refundable deposits and alternative financing models, Secondary market pricing vs. pre-order premiums
- **Mentioned:** Industry comparison: Haggis vs. JJP/American Pinball/Chicago Gaming investment models

### Sentiment

**Negative** (-0.92) — Kaneda expresses frustration bordering on anger throughout, though directed at industry practices rather than fans personally. Strong condemnation of Haggis, distributors, and other content creators. Passionate appeals for consumer rationality. Some contempt for FOMO-driven buyer behavior, but positioned as protective rather than dismissive.

### Signals

- **[product_concern]** Haggis Pinball has not fulfilled approximately half of Fathom Revisited pre-orders after ~2 years, yet announces new game (Centaurs) and solicits new pre-orders (confidence: high) — Kaneda repeatedly states 'half of the fathoms' remain unfulfilled; core premise of entire episode
- **[product_strategy]** Centaurs priced at $10k (Beast, 250 units) and $17k (Oblivion, 50 units); Oblivion includes customization, jacket, and helmet; $7k price delta questioned (confidence: high) — Kaneda explicitly cites prices and production quantities; compares to Galactic Tank Force's $6.5k premium tier model
- **[business_signal]** Haggis using non-refundable pre-order deposits for self-financing rather than securing external investor like JJP or American Pinball (confidence: high) — Kaneda states pre-order customers are effectively investors; contrasts with JJP and American Pinball (Ametron funding)
- **[sentiment_shift]** Kaneda criticizes other content creators (specifically Kerry Hardy) for hyping Centaurs without accountability; signals broader loss of trust in cheerleader culture (confidence: high) — Kaneda directly names Kerry Hardy and questions credibility of all content creator hyping without customer-protective scrutiny
- **[market_signal]** Centaurs trading at $6k-$8k on Pinside Marketplace; pattern repeats with Godfather, Scooby-Doo where secondary market undercuts pre-order by $2k (confidence: high) — Kaneda observes direct marketplace data; cites pattern across multiple games (Godfather $12k→$10k, Scooby-Doo similar discount)
- **[community_signal]** Kaneda argues pinball community is irrationally driven by aesthetics and FOMO, blind to financing risks and willing to pre-invest without guaranteed timelines (confidence: high) — Recurring theme: 'everybody is just blinded by aesthetics,' 'Stop running towards the FOMO,' 'Did everyone make millions on Dogecoin'
- **[announcement]** Haggis Pinball announced Centaurs (Beast and Oblivion editions) on July 4, 2023; pre-orders open July 12, 2023 (confidence: high) — Kaneda states: 'Haggis Pinball drops...game number three...4th of July' and 'game doesn't even go up for sale until July 12th'
- **[product_concern]** Haggis provides no clear communication on current Fathom production numbers, weekly build rate, or expected delivery timeline for new Centaurs orders (confidence: high) — Kaneda repeatedly asks: 'How many games are you making a week? When will I get my Centaur Beast Edition or Oblivion Edition if I order this game on July 12th'
- **[industry_signal]** Distributors are accepting pre-orders for Centaurs despite having unfulfilled Fathom inventory; seen as conflict of interest and failure of customer advocacy (confidence: high) — Kaneda: 'Distributors who should be looking out for customers are taking orders on this game, saying it's a must-have game when those very distributors haven't even fulfilled all of their fathom orders'
- **[market_signal]** Haggis's July 4 announcement (with July 12 pre-order open) appears timed to capture money before major Stern announcement expected ~July 20 (confidence: medium) — Kaneda speculates: 'That's why they're doing it right now...if they wait, all the money is going to go to the one company that actually builds games'
- **[product_strategy]** Beast Edition limited to 250 units and Oblivion to 50 units; strategy parallels Fathom Mermaid Edition at 250 units; pricing structured to capture collector premium (confidence: high) — Kaneda notes: 'Beast version...is $10,000...250 of those. That's right where Fathom was' and 'only doing 250 of the Beast and only 50 of the Oblivion'

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## Transcript

 The games look beautiful. Beast Edition and Oblivion, but Oblivion obviously takes it to the next level of just, oh, you make it so difficult to turn down. I'm hoping that you're going to regret only doing 250 of the Beast and only 50 of the Oblivion. Only? Only? Tell your children not to walk my way Tell your children not to hear my words What they mean, what they say Mother Mother Can you keep them in the dark for a while Tell your children not to have a family wedding World Mother Mother All right, you ready? Kenea does not hold him back. Here we go. Yeah, I'm not wearing a Haggis hat. I'm not saying it's a must-buy. Let's go. Oh, you know, let's just stop all the shenanigans. Let's stop the charades. Everybody, here's the deal. I'm just going to give it to you raw and uncut on this episode of Canada's Pinball Podcast. It's the 4th of July. It's the evening of our country's independence. It's a holiday evening, and it's like 10 o'clock at night, and Haggis Pinball drops. It's game number three information sent our onto the world. And what happens? We've got distributors saying it's a must buy. We'll take your pre-orders tomorrow, even though the game doesn't even go up for sale until July 12th. And then we've got other content creators wearing Haggis hats saying it's really hard to figure out how to not buy this game. And then you go on the Pinside Marketplace. What do you see? You see Centaurs trading hands for around $6,000 to $8,000. Now, look, I get it. The game is beautiful. Haggis Pinball makes a stunning product. Fathom Revisit, it was stunning. It was a beautiful game. And people wanted it. And people preordered it. And people waited and waited and waited. And they still have not made. half of the fathoms. And this podcast is going to be about what I believe is this pinball industry's inability to actually see the forest for the trees. Distributors who should be looking out for customers are taking orders on this game, saying it's a must-have game when those very distributors haven't even fulfilled all of their fathom orders. So who's actually looking out for the pinball buying community. Is it your distributor friend? Do they have information that Haggis Pinball has ramped up their production abilities? Have we seen any indication that they've got more people building these games? No, they want to take a two or $3,000 non-refundable deposit on July 12th. Why July 12th? Why are you even revealing this game if you haven't even built half of the fathom orders after almost two years of having fathom orders with customers? Why is nobody seemingly even interested in asking any of these questions? And this is the part that's absolutely so comical to me. Have we not seen this charade before? Have we not seen this movie before? Am I the only one who is a lunatic in New York City who has seen this happen time and time again? Look, the game is beautiful. The game is gorgeous, right? I'm not going to argue on the aesthetics of this machine because Fathom was beautiful. What I would love for us to ask is simply this. Why was the game revealed to us on the 4th of July of 2023 when nobody knows how many fathoms have you made to date? How many games are you making a week? When will I get my Centaur Beast Edition or Oblivion Edition if I order this game on July 12th And when you give your money on July 12th guess what people it non So you don't care? You're just gonna wait forever? You're gonna wait for years? And this is my point, is the fact that we've got distributors who are saying, order it now, I'll lock in your non-refundable deposit for you. Why would you even bother? So let's just look at the reality here. I harp on one thing all the time. Market research, market research, market research. Now look, if you're going to do a remake of a game, isn't the whole point of remaking a classic game is to bring it back and make it affordable to own a brand new version of the game? Let's just start there. So remember when Chicago Gaming Company remade games like Monster Bash and Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars? Remember that? Remember those good old days? So before they did that, before they brought brand new, sexier versions of those classic games back into the world, those games, if you were to find one like professionally restored, they were going for like $12,000. And Chicago Gaming Company brought back those games for cheaper than what a high end restoration of that game would cost you. OK, now times have changed, right? And I get it. The whole pinball marketplace has exploded. But if you look at the marketplace for Centaur, which is a game that there's a decent amount of them in the world, I think there's like 3,800 were made. So they are out there. And look, I know, I know, right? Haggis is not even making like a tenth of how many Centaurs are out there in the world. And they are arguably making like a modern, nicer version. So if you're a Centaur fan and you really want this game, like this is good news for you. You're going to get this brand new, spanking and innovative new version of Centaur. All right. So like, good. Knock yourself out. Okay. But here's the thing. They're only going to make two versions, the Beast version and the Oblivion version. The Beast version in US dollars is $10,000. They're going to make 250 of those. Okay. So that's kind of like Fathom Mermaid Edition, right? 250 at $10,000. That's right where Fathom was. Now we've got this Oblivion Edition. It's got all this other. stuff, color, play field, different topper. It comes with custom call outs for each buyer, right? They're doing a Batman Super Ellie move here where they are going to customize the game for you. They're also going to give you a motorcycle jacket and I think a helmet so you can be the ultimate badass human being playing the game. But it's $17,000. It's $7,000 more than the freaking beast edition of the game. What is going on in pinball, people? There is something rotten in the state of Denmark, as Shakespeare would say. What is happening to this hobby? Like, how is that a $7,000 more thing to put into a game? It's the same way with Galactic Tank Force. It was like $6,500 more to get a lunchbox and a thermos and a cheap 3D Translight. All right, what is happening here? have we all lost our minds. But it's clear what's happening. These companies are trying to milk the collector. They're trying to do what Stern does, but they're not doing it right because they don't have the ability to make the games. And when did we stop asking these questions? When did we give up needing to know how safe our money was if we gave them to these companies and had absolutely no idea when they're going to make the game. Here's the deal. I would buy a game from Haggis if the game was in a box. Why is it so hard for them to put a game in a box and then sell it to you? Why are they doing this? Think about it right now. There are half of the Fathom buyers out there that don't have their game. What do you think they're feeling right now? You know, I don't even have my game yet. And you've now announced the next game. So we've seen this happen before. And I not even allowed to mention when it happening because then people are like you can draw parallels to this company to that company Why not They doing the exact same thing Before they finish the build on game number two they are going to take money non on game number three So it begs the question, why do they need the money for game number three if they haven't even finished building game number two and it's going to take them at least six months or more to finish building game number two? Why? Why? Are you going to go in on one? And look, based on the reaction from people, I think it's a divided camp. The majority of people are looking at this the same way I am. Like, Centaur isn't really a game where a lot of people have been clamoring for it. Now you're charging more money than it's ever cost to get one. I get it. All they need are 50 diehard Centaur fans, and they will sell those Oblivion editions. And that's fine. I don't really care if they want to do this. But the question still remains. Imagine if you ordered one. When are you getting it? When are you getting it? Why is this stuff clouded in mystery? And why are distributors taking money on these games before the games are even open for sale? So don't forget something, people. If you want to get your game, they're never going to fill a container. There hasn't been one single container that came over from Australia that gave people free shipping on the game. It's really easy to say stuff like this. And I'm so shocked with all these smart, educated people in pinball that nobody calls out this BS. Like, it's like I could say to you free shipping, but only if I sell an aircraft carrier full of games like it's free. If that happens, like these conditions are so manufactured. And look, you know me. I'm not a fan of this company. I'm not a fan of how they've been doing business. I'm not a fan of how they've been communicating with people. I don't care that they're making a sexy remake of a 1981 game. What I care about is this company showing us where they currently are in its manufacturing of these games. And look, I get it. People think I'm annoying. They think I'm just rooting against these companies. And look, nobody else, nobody else is asking these questions. Instead, Kerry Hardy's putting on a haggis hat saying you're making it hard not to buy this game. Kerry, really? at $17,000. They made it real easy not to buy the game, bro. Did everyone make millions on Dogecoin? Like what has happened to the common sense in the pinball hobby? And I don't see anybody, and I mean this, anybody in the pinball content world looking out for the customers asking these questions. They simply are Win Schilling and cheerleading for all these companies, no matter what they do, no matter what they do, like nobody's asking how, where are you with Fathom? Where are you with Fathom? Maybe before I take orders on this game, I'm going to ensure I know where my Fathom customers stand. Nope. It's a must have game. Brilliant. Amazing. Let me use all the hyperbolic statements I can make so I can get more orders in. Let's just pile up the orders and then maybe our robbing Peter to pay Paul business strategy will work out. This is right after I did a show that says, hey, maybe you should be careful. My whole thing is this, people. If you want this game, buy this game after it's made. How about that? How about we start teaching these pinball companies a lesson? I'm not going to be your investor. I will be your customer. If Haggis Pinball needs cash today, go to a bank and get a loan. Go find investors in pinball. We've seen it happen before. Jersey Jack Pinball went and found an investor. We know that Ametron is funding American Pinball. But if you want to self-finance this, see, it's not Damien self-financing this company. It's all of you if you order the game now. And that's the way it works. If you give non-refundable pre-order money to these companies, you are now an investor in Haggis Pinball. You didn't buy a game. The game's not even made. You don't even know when the game's going to be made. I mean, it's absolutely inane that everybody has a short memory when it comes to this kind of business practice. And I don't care if this upsets you. I don't care. I will always be on this side of the fence when it comes to the charade that I see from some of these pinball companies the charade from what I see from some of these pinball content creators that just shill and cheerlead and applaud this stuff Because trust me ladies and gentlemen they not looking out for your best interest They're all putting money in their pockets. And I'm going to tell you right now, the only money I get in my pocket comes from this podcast. And this is my pinball livelihood. So cool. I'm not making anyone join this show. I'm not forcing you to listen to Canada's pinball podcast. But I'm going to tell you right now, you're not going to hear this from anybody else. You're going to hear bye, bye, bye. And that's it. And I think this pinball world needs to wake up. I think people need common sense. And look, I get it. It's haggis. Most of you are not going to buy this game because when this game goes up for sale on July 12th, guess what? In eight days, you're going to see the next game from Stern Pinball, right? That's why they're doing it right now. That's why they're doing it right now. They need to capture money right now because if they wait, all the money is going to go to the one company that actually builds games. It's so funny to me. It's 2023. These days of being personal investors in these companies with these non-refundable deposits, it's total BS. Why is the deposit non-refundable? Why? If you're not going to build this game for a freaking year, then don't ask for money until the game is on the freaking line. And that's it, people. Happy July 5th, Canada's Pinball Podcast. Don't buy, buy, buy. Use some common sense. Wake up. I know that 99% of you are not going to move on these things. It's crazy to me how everyone is just blinded by aesthetics and nobody wants to ask any of these tough questions. Everybody, it's your money. Be smart. Be careful. If you want this game, I would email them and say, hey, I'll happily buy it when you build it. I'm not going to give you money and wait a year because if Fathom has shown us anything, if you wait, you'll be able to get one, take no risk, and have the game in your house before everyone else who orders the game with a pre-order. That's what happens. We see it every time. We're seeing it with Scooby-Doo people. It's not just Haggis people. You could cut the line with Spooky and get a Scooby-Doo for $2,000 less. If you want a Godfather, you could go get it for $2,000 less. And these, again, these things are being sold to you by people that are like, buy, buy, buy. It's $12,000. And then the same people are selling you the exact same machine like a couple of weeks later for $1,500 or $2,000 less. And all of a sudden, it's no longer the greatest game. All of a sudden, they're no longer hyping it. All of a sudden, what? Look out for yourselves. Stop believing the hype. Stop running towards the FOMO. If you just wait and see, you will have way more options and save way more money. And that is my only message now for the rest of my pinball tenure. There's nothing else I can tell you. I've been in it for a decade and this is what I've learned. If you wait and you see how it all plays out, you will be at an advantageous position. If you listen to the FOMO and the hype and the people that just wanna put money in their pockets, you might put your money at risk, you might wait way longer than you want to, and then a new game might come out that you want more and then there's nothing you can do. Just go take a look at the guy on Pinside selling his Godfather CE. His name is Knucklehead. That's his name. And now he wants something else, but he committed to buying a game he's never played before. Wake up, people. Would you buy a car you didn't test drive? This isn't like an Xbox. Games aren't 50 bucks. This is $15,000. Would you buy a watch that you don't put on your wrist? people wake up Kaneda out happy July 5th and if you wanna find hell with me I can show you what I've learned my way Yeah!

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: 9049e98e-ad48-425f-9cda-4781d843475d*