# Episode 42 - Buying and Selling Pinball

**Source:** Special When Lit  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2019-03-12  
**Duration:** 54m 35s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://specialwhenlitpinballpodcast.com/episode-42-buying-and-selling-pinball

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## Analysis

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss pinball pricing trends, market dynamics, and buying/selling strategies on their Chicago-based podcast. They highlight dramatic price increases across classic and modern machines, explain the 'new-in-box hit' depreciation phenomenon, share war stories about uneducated sellers and misrepresented machines, and advise collectors on finding value in used Stern Pros and System 11 titles. The conversation reflects growing tension between collectors protecting investments and players seeking affordable entry points.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] T2 machines have increased from $1,300-$2,300 range to $3,000+ range in recent years — _Ken Cromwell discussing T2 pricing, noting he purchased his for $1,300 and now they're in the low-to-mid-threes_
- [HIGH] Stern Meteors have increased from approximately $600-$700 range a year ago to $1,500-$1,700 range currently — _Ken Cromwell reporting on his search for Meteors, noting dramatic year-over-year price increase_
- [HIGH] C-title pins (World Cup Soccer, Demo Man, Getaway) are appreciating faster than A-titles (Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars) — _Bill Webb explaining market dynamics: demand for A-titles has saturated market, forcing buyers down to B and C titles_
- [MEDIUM] $2,500 is now the baseline acceptable price for typical 1990s Bally/Williams machines — _Referenced conversation with Dave Felgren; Bill Webb noting Demo Mans going to $3,000 range_
- [HIGH] New-in-box pinball machines depreciate $500-$5,000 immediately upon opening, similar to driving a car off the dealership lot — _Ken Cromwell explaining the 'new-in-box hit' depreciation model_
- [MEDIUM] Stern Pro machines are being released more frequently now than in the past — _Bill Webb noting that Stern releasing more games than ever, affecting used market pricing dynamics_
- [MEDIUM] Used Stern Pros are depreciating faster now than 2-3 years ago when sellers could lose only $200-$400 — _Bill Webb observing that used Pros now show 'a little bit more of a significant difference' in depreciation_
- [HIGH] Bill Webb was misrepresented a Whirlwind purchase in September/October (prior year) that arrived non-functional with battery-corroded boards — _Bill Webb detailing experience where seller claimed cabinet and playfield were solid but machine had missing parts, acid damage, and non-functional boards_

### Notable Quotes

> "The moment you crack open that box, it's like driving a car off the dealership lot. You lost $5,000 or you lose $500 on a brand-new pin."
> — **Ken Cromwell**, ~12:30
> _Core concept explaining new-in-box depreciation that shapes collector and buyer strategy_

> "$2,500 is the new $2,500. [referring to baseline acceptable price for 90s Bally/Williams]"
> — **Dave Felgren (referenced by Ken Cromwell)**, ~8:00
> _Market indicator for pricing baseline shift in classic machines_

> "If you've got 10 pins in your basement and they all are playing the same way with similar layouts, I don't know. It's kind of boring."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~28:00
> _Collector philosophy on diversification versus focused collecting_

> "You've got the new buyer, but the uneducated seller is tough because they don't really look at a machine like somebody like myself or yourself would look at a machine."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~42:00
> _Identifies key friction point in secondary market between informed and uninformed sellers_

> "The used market can't be more expensive than the new market. It's still climbing, but you're starting to see dips in certain areas of certain games, certain genres."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~35:00
> _Suggests potential market segmentation and early signs of genre-specific price correction_

> "I don't like going on Craigslist anymore looking for games because there's so much trolling going on."
> — **Ken Cromwell**, ~65:00
> _Reflects changing marketplace dynamics and friction in traditional secondary sales channels_

> "I'm one of those people that if you tell me I can't do something or you think I won't do something, just wait because it's going to happen."
> — **Bill Webb**, ~55:00
> _Character insight revealing motivation to pursue recourse with misleading seller_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Ken Cromwell | person | Co-host of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast; formerly PR/marketing at Jersey Jack Pinball; pinball collector and enthusiast from Chicago area |
| Bill Webb | person | Co-host of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast; pinball collector with diverse collection including System 11, T2, Getaway, Baywatch, Transformers, Wizard of Oz; prefers used market and value hunting |
| Special When Lit Pinball Podcast | organization | Pinball podcast based in St. Charles, Illinois (Chicago area) hosted by Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb; bar-talk casual approach to pinball discussion |
| Dave Felgren | person | Friend of the show; referenced for market pricing insight about $2,500 baseline for 90s Bally/Williams machines |
| Aaron Johnson | person | Pinball community member who contacted the show asking about the relevance of pinball price guides given rapid market changes |
| Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; Stern Pro is referenced as the primary new-in-box market benchmark at $5,300-$5,800+ range |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer mentioned in context of new-in-box vs used market competition |
| Spooky Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer mentioned in context of new-in-box market tier |
| Pinside.com | organization | Online pinball forum and marketplace where games are listed at average prices; referenced as price guide resource |
| Zach Many | person | Host of This Week in Pinball podcast; interviewed Ken Cromwell recently |
| Ed Robertson | person | Scheduled interview guest for episode (did not materialize); was in town for Stern Pro Circuit Tour tournament; performer with live show commitments |
| This Week in Pinball | organization | Pinball news/interview podcast where Ken Cromwell recently appeared as guest |
| Stern Pro Circuit Tour | event | Tournament event mentioned in context of Ed Robertson's weekend schedule |

### Topics

- **Primary:** Pinball machine pricing and market trends, New-in-box depreciation and collector investment strategy, Classic Bally/Williams machine appreciation, Used Stern Pro as market sweet spot, Secondary market buying/selling friction
- **Secondary:** Condition assessment and subjectivity, Collector vs casual player priorities, Marketplace platforms and their evolution

### Sentiment

**Mixed** (0.35) — Hosts express fascination with price trends but frustration with market friction, seller dishonesty, and uncertainty about sustainability. Bill Webb's experience with the Whirlwind seller creates negative sentiment about marketplace trust. However, general tone is analytical and conversational rather than heavily negative. Hosts remain engaged with hobby despite concerns.

### Signals

- **[market_signal]** Vintage Stern machines (T2, Meteor) and C-title games (World Cup Soccer, Demo Man, Getaway) appreciate 2-3x in value within 1-4 years; A-titles saturated causing spillover demand down the quality ladder (confidence: high) — T2 up from $1,300 to $3,000; Meteor up from $600-700 to $1,500-1,700; demo man to $3,000 range; C-titles appreciating faster than A-titles per Bill Webb
- **[product_strategy]** New pinball machines lose $500-$5,000 in value immediately upon first play, creating arbitrage opportunity for buyers who purchase used machines from collectors upgrading to LE/Premium models (confidence: high) — Ken Cromwell: 'the moment you crack open that box...you lose $500 on a brand new pin.' Bill Webb notes Stern Pros with under 500 plays available at significant discounts from NIB price
- **[market_signal]** $2,500 is now baseline acceptable price for 1990s-era Bally/Williams machines (up from previous lower range); some Demo Mans reaching $3,000+ (confidence: medium) — Dave Felgren quote via Ken Cromwell: '$2,500 is the new $2,500'; Bill Webb noting Demo Mans in $3,000 range
- **[market_signal]** Stern Pro machines showing larger depreciation curves than 2-3 years ago; previously sellers lost $200-400 over 3-4 months, now depreciation is 'more significant' (confidence: medium) — Bill Webb: 'before a couple years ago you could buy a Stern Pro...maybe only lose $200, $300, $400. Now it's like there's a little bit more of a significant difference'
- **[business_signal]** Stern Pinball releasing games more frequently than ever before; this increased release cadence is affecting secondary market pricing dynamics (confidence: medium) — Bill Webb: 'Stern's releasing more games now than ever. So that also affects it, too'
- **[community_signal]** Secondary marketplace (Craigslist, Facebook, Offerup, LetGo) experiencing increased trolling, fake ads, and price misalignment; organized local buyer networks creating artificial demand signals (confidence: medium) — Ken Cromwell: 'there's so much like trolling going on...all the guys in our area that are the buyers and the sellers all respond to each other's ads...it just causes a big mess'
- **[product_concern]** Uneducated private sellers frequently misrepresent machine condition due to lack of technical knowledge; some sellers deliberately misrepresent to avoid negotiations or exit sales quickly (confidence: high) — Bill Webb's detailed Whirlwind experience: seller claimed 'cabinet solid, just needs decals; playfield nice, needs shop job' but delivered non-functional machine with battery-corroded boards and missing parts. Bill Webb notes pattern of seller dodging communication post-sale
- **[market_signal]** As premium Bally/Williams A-titles become saturated and priced high, buyer demand cascades down to B and C titles, driving forced appreciation across lower-tier machines (confidence: high) — Bill Webb: 'your A titles are commanding about the same prices as these new in box pins...So then once you're priced out of that option, now you're looking for other options...C titles...all of these pins have been forced appreciated'
- **[sentiment_shift]** Hosts expressing growing frustration with private-seller marketplace; Bill Webb's Whirlwind experience reinforces skepticism; Ken Cromwell abandoning Craigslist entirely in favor of peer-to-peer sales with known community members (confidence: high) — Bill Webb recounting Whirlwind misrepresentation and subsequent failed communication; Ken Cromwell: 'I've gotten to the point now where I almost don't bother with it as much...I really just prefer buying and selling...with friends people that I know'
- **[collector_signal]** Collectors with large portfolios (10-40+ games) have financial incentive to resist price corrections; those with small/curated collections are indifferent to market direction (confidence: high) — Bill Webb: 'If you've got 30, 40 games, you don't want to see a dip...I don't have a lot tied up into pinball at any given time so it be advantageous for me to see a market dip'
- **[market_signal]** Used Stern Pro machines (2-3 years old, under 500 plays, HUO condition) represent optimal value entry point at $4,500-5,000+ range; significantly cheaper than NIB equivalents but newer/more reliable than vintage machines (confidence: high) — Bill Webb: 'newer sterns that go to the used market are ridiculously good buys...wait for somebody to get a pro who's waiting to get their LE or their premium...you're getting like an HUO game that might be a month or less used'

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## Transcript

 coming at you out of st charles illinois the special when lit pinball podcast starts now hey what's going on pinball land welcome to episode number 42 of the special when lit pinball podcast my name is ken cromwell and i am bill webb and we are not in the presence of ed robertson as we anticipated uh today we were going to have an interview lined up for you as ed was in town for the Stern Pro Circuit Tour tournament that went on this past weekend. It just didn't line up time-wise. He was a pretty busy guy in regards to making sure that he had fulfilled any obligations that he had decided to do with Stern, and then he had a live performance. He had a sound check. He was flying in that day, flying out, so it just didn't line up time-wise. So we hope to have that on the show at some point. It just wasn't going to work out this week. What's new in Ken's world? Nothing. You know what? I was on This Week in Pinball podcast with Zach Many this week, so that was kind of fun talking to him. We have, I guess, a lot of people that contact us every single week, and they are new to the show. So if you don't mind, I just wanted to do a quick rundown of who we are and what we do and welcome those new people to the show. I'm Ken. He's Bill. Yeah. Welcome, everybody. We're a pinball podcast out of Chicago, Illinois, which is advantageous for us to get some of the interviews that we have. Hopefully, you've gotten a chance to listen to some of our back episodes. We started this podcast just because we found ourselves talking about pinball quite often, and we thought other people might enjoy hearing our perspective on it. So, I mean, that's honestly the gist of it, kind of a bar talk pinball podcast in all honesty. That's it. You'll get news. You'll get interviews and all topics pinball, and we just kind of have a pretty fun laid-back approach in regards to pinball podcasting. So if it's your first time aboard, welcome, and we do encourage you to go back and listen to some episodes. Give us a message, and we'll be happy to kind of guide you into some of the more favorite episodes that I think that we had done over the last 41, this being number 42. So welcome aboard to the Special and Lit Pinball Podcast. Absolutely. All right, Ken. So I think one of the topics today that we should reflect on because it was brought to us is pinball pricing. Yeah, pinball pricing seems to be on a steady incline over the past several years, it almost seems like, right? Yeah, you know what? I mean, we brought this up a while back about T2 and how I thought the values of it were like the $2,200, $2,300 range, but apparently they're in the $3,000 range now, which is crazy because I got mine for like $1,300. Low to mid-threes, yeah, on T2s. And that's not the only – it seems like there are – for instance, I've been looking for a Stern Meteor, and that's a pin that I think maybe even a year ago would have been in the $600, $700 range. and now Meteors are in that $1,500 range, $1,600, $1,700 range. So you're seeing some of the classics like Stearns increase. It seems like the classic Bally Williams have always stayed strong and have been increasing despite of the remakes or the threat thereof. I mean, there's still increase in pricing. And what's crazy is like a lot of the C title pins are just flying through the roof, like your World Cup Sockers, your T2s, your Demo Mans, your Getaways, All those pinnacle games from the 90s that weren't necessarily huge hits, fishtails, they're not your Medieval Madness or Attack from Mars or Circus Voltaire, but those are just going up in value. I mean, it seems like even more so than your standard Addams Family and Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars, just because the market is now, I'm not going to say saturated, but it's definitely kind of fulfilled with Medieval Madnesses and Attack from Mars and Monster Bash is now too. I think what you see happening is with such a focus on purchasing the Classic Valley Williams stuff, because either you're new in box for the new stuff or H-U-O with a lot of the new stuff, Stern, Jersey Jack, Spooky Pinball, et cetera. So if you're not in it at that price level, your next best bet is to look at the Classic Valley Williams, and your A titles are commanding about the same prices that these new in box pins or H-U-O pins are commanding. So then once you're priced out of that option, now you're looking for other options. You're looking for B titles, C titles. You're going back into earlier solid states. So it seems like all of these pins have been forced appreciated because of the – how am I trying to explain this? Just because of the demand for some of that higher-end Ballywilliam classic era. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I was talking with a friend of the show, Dave Felgren, over the weekend. And he was like, you know, $2,500 is the new $2,500, which is insane to me. Yeah, as far as like having an acceptable price? Yeah, for prices on, you know, your typical Bailey Williams stuff, you know, your 90s to mid-90s, that kind of stuff. You know, Dumbomans are going up to the $3,000 range. I mean, it's crazy to me, but I mean, I guess that's just where we're at. Kind of ironic to see this make such a leap in the last, you know, few years. Where are the best deals, in your opinion, right now? Where's the sweet spot? If you're looking to get into the hobby or you're looking to start a collection, where can you start to get something that's halfway decent that doesn't break the bank? That's something that is always asked. And Aaron Johnson, he Facebooked us and he was talking about, is a pinball price guide, is there even any reason to have any type of a pinball price guide anymore? No, you know what? It's funny because every time I see somebody list a game recently at the pin side average listing price, it sells immediately, which is just insane. And Pinside.com is an online forum group for pinball enthusiasts, and they do have a marketplace. So for those of you that might not know what that is, you can go there, talk pinball. Obviously you can look for the for sale ads for games. And read through the forums. Mods. Yeah, exactly. Kind of a one-stop shop for all things pinball also. And going back on this, one other thing I wanted to kind of say is, dollar for dollar what I think are good titles. I think your Lethal Weapon 3s are good for the price. I know that you're not a fan of it. I am not a fan of Lethal Weapon 3. And that's fine. Everyone has their own taste. But for what you get out of it and for the $2,000 price point, I don't think it's a bad game for that market. No, it's not. $2,000, I remember System 11s, right? Those were affordable. And that was kind of where you would go if you couldn't afford the A and the higher-end B titles of the Bally Williams 90s eras. But, I mean, now System 11s are up there. You know, it's crazy because I got my Pinbot when I bought it for $400. I mean, it was a wrecked player's condition. When did you buy that? 15. 15 years ago? No, no, no, 2015. Right, right. So four years ago? Yeah. You know, I since had sold it to a friend and didn't make any money on it, but he could turn around and flip it. I mean, it's just kind of crazy. But, you know, some of those System 11s, Pinbot's kind of a cool game. Your high speeds, you know, your kind of go-tos. as far as your System 11s. I think everyone's kind of priced out of the funhouse, whirlwind kind of market. Earthshakers don't seem too terribly high. They're still under the threes. Well, nice earthshakers, I think, are over the threes. But a decent one. Yeah, I mean, it's got to be a nice one. 25 to 28. Right. I mean, conditions king. We can talk about that in a few minutes. But it's wild. And I'm trying to wrap my head around, when does it slow down? Do we have a dip? um i would assume that it will we've got so many manufacturers that are obviously uh well you've got the main manufacturers that consistently make pinball machines yep and now you've got new companies that are entering the marketplace with their pinball machines but now you're seeing like a lot of new companies come in that are also offering pinball machines uh you talk about market saturation i don't know that there's saturation necessarily for new in box assuming that the products are all quality and equivalent right within reason exactly uh where i think the problem is new companies that might come in that aren't playing in the same game that are uh obviously of lesser quality that's where it's like you're gonna they're gonna get putting yourself in a bad spot they're gonna get pushed out exactly exactly so you anticipate these newly released titles and it honestly it seems like every single week something's popping up the easier question it's not who's making pinball who's not making pinball right now we're not yet you know right but we've talked about doing a homebrew not for mass production but just as smart alec just alec fun for the uh for the hobby um i mean when does new in box make sense i think for somebody that's getting into the hobby and somebody that's been in the hobby for a while a new in box experience is ridiculously fun it is but you know you then you're contesting with the new in box hit that you know you're going to take on a brand new pin you know if you're not willing to accept that then Explain the new in-box hit. All right, so for all intents and purposes, you buy a brand-new game. It's brand-new in the box. It should retain its value as long as it's still brand-new in the box, plus or minus $100, whatever. The moment you crack open that box, it's like driving a car off the dealership lot. Yep. You lost $5,000 or you lose $500 on a brand-new pin. It just seems to be that's the way that it goes. going back to the you know uh stern new in box pros right so they're in the you know what 55 to 5800 range depending on titles now whatever yeah i think they're in the upper fives if you're going to get a good deal but you're really not touching a monster's pro for less than 5300 right now a used one yeah well so i've seen some used monster pros under five and that was surprising to me it seems to me like the stern the newer sterns that go to the used market are ridiculously good buys if you can take advantage of somebody else's new inbox hit i think that's like the sweet spot to get into the hobby if you're looking for a newer pin is wait for somebody to get a pro who's waiting to get their le or their premium because what you're seeing right now with the lower price on the monster pros are those that had are on the list to get their le or their premium But in the meantime, they want to be playing pinball. They want to play that new pin. So they get a pro. And then when their LE or their premium is coming in, they sell the pro. And then they take the new in-box hit for you. And then you're able to get like an HUO game that might be a month or less used. Less than 500 plays on it. Probably less than 500 plays. Yeah. And you're getting a good deal. Yeah. That said, there's nothing like the new in-box experience. And if you have the means to do so. And there's a lot of collectors that that's primarily what they do purchase is the new in box. But if you're able to kind of get in even one new in box, I think everybody should have that experience if possible. And if you don't, go to a buddy's house that's got a new in box and experience that because it's great. The only time really worthwhile to do a new in box, in my opinion, though, is if you – well, and a new in box isn't for everybody. You know, everyone doesn't have the means to go out and buy a brand-new pinball machine every other month when something new comes out. So, you know, for me to buy a brand-new in box, it would really have to be a Grail theme. Oh, no. There we go. That calls to me. But that's just me. Sure. So, you know, I think really the sweet spot is up until, like, the point where you start getting to the Stern Pro pricing. You know, the used Pros, you know, Ghostbusters at $4,500. I don't see how that's not a great game at that price, you know. I know there's people that don't like the flipper gap and have other reserves about it. But, you know, I think that's once you start crossing the threshold of a new relatively couple-year-old pinball machine, that's when it really kind of takes effect on, okay, do I want a $4,800 Star Trek next gen, or do I want a couple-month-old Munsters? Yep. You know, so it's just interesting to see what's going to happen with these prices. Well, see, in the used market, some of these pinball machines now that are used that are in the $6,000, $7,000, $8,000 range, I mean, you almost have your pick of any new in box at that point. So it's like, do you want something that's 20, 30 years old and collectible at the same price that you can get something that's brand new out of the box? The hobby is different for everybody, and I understand it, and I think that's what makes it so interesting. What makes me tick doesn't make somebody else. And you and I differ on this because you really love the deeper code on stuff. I do. And I love kind of the simplicity of certain things. You know, I mean, Wizard of Oz is the most complicated game I have. I'll never beat it. But because of the theme, I'm willing to accept that for, you know, for what it is and a game that I'll never beat. That said, you know, I played Getaway last week for the first time in, I don't know, a couple months because I actually had an opportunity to when I saw a credit dot on the screen. Oh, my gosh. Well, and I knew what it was. So whenever you don't get all three balls locked into the lock up top for the multi ball, it eventually shoots a code saying your top lock switch isn't yeah it's been activated for a while and honestly having a four-year-old she goes downstairs and hits four player games you know all the time on anything that's on yep and then you're just resetting so of course it never even cycles a ball through up there so you know i'm like okay well i need to fix the credit dot and i was like you know let's see if i actually can still play this game locked all three balls credit that went off and i was like cool and muscle memory right just that's it like riding a bike that dude was a good time so so yeah it'd be interesting to see what happens with the hobby and with the economy and how everything kind of plays out in the end. See, I'm not one. I think a lot of people have money that they have tied up in pinball. And for them, if you've got that big collection of 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 pins, you don want to see these prices go down because then it like what might be and what you might consider as an investment or assets you don want to see them depreciate depending on where you got in on the hobby For me I don have a lot tied up into pinball at any given time so it be advantageous for me to see a market dip a little bit because then it enables me to kind of get out and buy some things that I might not normally be able to afford or justify the costs for. yeah like your days of a thousand dollar bay watch and uh judge dreads for 1500 bucks well like right now i'm i'm looking for a class of 1812 it's an older gottlieb you know it's not one that comes up but it's not anything that's going to cost me you know three four five thousand dollars either and that's where i kind of appeal i'm looking for that meteor i've got a deal lined up right now to pick up a meteor um for seven thousand or seven thousand dollars oh my gosh i That's got to be like a box. A new-in-box Meteor is what you're picking up, huh? $700 for a Meteor. It's got a couple of wear spots on the play field. So what I think I'm going to try to do is I'm not one to try to touch up play fields. But I might try to do this and get some of the acrylic paints out. And at that point, if I completely mess it up, I'm not going to feel horrible on a $700 investment. And I still have the game. I do have to see, and I don't know if anybody knows about this or not, if there is one of those hardtop playfields available for Meteor. Or if there is, I guess if there's a decal, you were talking about that earlier as an option. I'm in vinyl decal, so application wouldn't intimidate me. But I'm just curious what's out there, because I am a big playfield stickler, and I think this kind of ties into condition of used games. Before we jump there, though, I've got to jump in. So, you know, you mentioned pinball price and how much you have tied up in. If you've got 30, 40 games, you don't want to see a dip. True. You really don't. That said, you know, in my collection, most of the stuff that I have is stuff that it could drop. I'm not going to be happy about it, but it's stuff that I really don't want to get rid of. You've got a solid collection. Yeah, sure. So I don't really, you know, it's not that I don't care, but to me, you know. But you don't have, you're not intending on selling anything, so the going value for your pins will not affect you as much as somebody that is buying and selling. Two pins. I got one pin for sure that I know I'm going to get rid of, and that's one of the Transformers that I have at some point. Transformers LE, and then depending on how I like Whirlwind, that could be on the auction block too. But if I like it, guess what? It's going to stay parked. It's pin number one in the System 11, followed by T2, Getaway, Baywatch, Transformers, Wizard of Oz, and then hopefully – You've got a pretty diverse collection there, man. You're all over the place. Yeah, we're trying. But I think that's what you need to do. I mean, if you have 10 pins in your basement or in your game room and they all are playing the same way with similar layouts, I don't know. It's kind of boring. Yeah. And you know what? The System 11 stuff is cool to have, too. So, you know, everything I have, you know, so I guess this is me saying to people that have, you know, large collections that have them to have them, make sure it's stuff that you love. because if you don't love it, you might not, you know, if, God forbid, we had another crash of real estate or Internet boom or whatever happens or Internet boom crash and screws up the stock market, you know. See, at that point, you don't want to sell low. No, so at least make sure that you have the stuff that you want. I mean, at that point, you're just trading. I just don't know. I don't know how much higher it can get. I mean, it's just the used market can't be more expensive than the new market. We had this conversation a year ago, though. Right. It's still climbing. No, it is climbing, but you're starting to see dips in certain areas of certain games, certain genres, I'm noticing for sure. I would never believe that you could get the amount of, and I keep referencing, the Stern Pro is like the status quo for pinball. I mean, these games come out on a regular basis every few months. You're going to see one newly released, and they're at the price point that you want, like under $6,000. They normally play pretty outstandingly. And then there's that used market. So all these Stern Pros that are on the used market, that's the sweet spot. But I think that those games have become more affordable, whereas before, a couple years ago, you could buy a Stern Pro and then play it for three or four months and then sell it and then maybe only lose $200, $300, $400 at the most. Now it's like there's a little bit more of a significant difference. And also you have to take into consideration that. those prices of the pros have gone up just like everything else. Everything has been increasing on the new-in-box price side. So I'm not an economics major. I don't know market trends, so to speak, but I have to believe that there will be some type of a change or at least a pause where everything maintains. It just can't keep going up. And realize, too, with the pros, Stern's releasing more games now than ever. So that also affects it, too. Sure, sure. I think the competition coming in will make it interesting, too. I'd like to see if there are options available that are new that are in that same price point. Like around $5,000 is a sweet spot if you can make it. But if you can't make it into a new game, then you've got to search the market for used games. And then what always comes up is condition. And condition is so subjective. It drives me crazy. Well, here, you have to keep going, but I know where you're going with this. My idea of something is somebody else's completely different idea. Well, yeah, and you are a little bit more finicky on certain things, just like I'm a little bit more finicky or picky on other things, right? So the best example is when you have somebody that doesn't know, I've got this pinball machine that my aunt or uncle or it's been in the family, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's in great shape. It turns on. Everything works. You come over, you find out it's a BSD, Bram Stoker's Dracula, for people that are just kind of tuning into and getting into pinball. So you go up and you see a credit dot on the screen, which is where when you see a dot next to where it says free play, that means that there's an error going on in the game. So you show up, you see the credit dot on, half the ramps are cracked, play field has wear down to the wood, cabinet looks like it was road hard, put away wet. Sounds like it's in great shape, man. But, you know, the person that's selling it, you almost have to re-educate that person on all the flaws that are in that. Perfect example was the Bally Escape from Lost World that I bought from a previous co-worker. They said, oh, this is in great shape. We've had it 20 years, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm thinking, you know, hoping for the best. Somewhere on the play field, some broken rubbers, whatever. No. Dude, they had it in the garage. It was leaking in the garage on top of the game. So the head was trashed out. And they're like, you know, as soon as I show up, they're like, well, we know what it's worth. We were on the Internet, and it's, you know, a $1,500 game. I'm like, listen, let me take some time and educate you. I'm like, right now I'm out of buying your game, but I want you to know where you sit with what you have. Yep. First off, your cabin is trashed. I'm scared to even, you know, watch somebody load it. Let me tell you why you're completely ignorant. Yeah. And, you know, you have to be nice with that. Oh, I agree, for sure. You know, you don't want to say, hey, listen, you know, you're trying to sell a turd here and, you know, can't, you know, gold dip a turd. So, you know, explaining to them that the cabinet's trashed and literally scared to load it in a car because it's that wrecked. There's flipper above the flippers. There's wear down to the wood because, you know, flippers are dragging on it. Half the ramps are cracked. Head was screwed up, you know, but they thought they had gold and there were switch errors and all sorts of stuff. But they thought they had gold. who are sitting there for 45 minutes explaining, listen, the one on eBay has a beautiful cabinet, beautiful play field. It was just shopped. Everything works. It's in great condition. Yours is the exact opposite of what you're trying to get out of it. And eBay can't be used as a price comp. It just doesn't make sense. And the thing is this, you've got the new buyer, but the uneducated seller is tough because they don't really look at a machine like somebody like myself or yourself would look at a machine. And it's, to your point, trying to negotiate with somebody that has something grossly overpriced because they ran a comp on eBay, it's very, very difficult. And I've gotten to the point now where I almost don't bother with it as much because it's a lot of effort to try to respectfully tell somebody the faults on their machine while trying to appreciate their enthusiasm for the game that they're holding. It's like a real delicate balance. And then usually what happens is by the time you go back and forth and you're still so far apart, they end up selling it for a more reasonable price but not to you because they don't want to admit that you were correct. So they'll sell it to somebody else for the price that made sense, and then they'll tell you that they sold it for full price. I've had that happen so many times where somebody I knew purchased something from somebody I was negotiating with, and they told me they sold it for thousands more than what I had offered, and I knew it to be false. And at that point, you just kind of shake your head and walk away. It's difficult to buy from the uneducated seller. It really, really is. And it's difficult to educate the seller. It is. So let me flip the coin on you here. So another experience that I had was with the Whirlwind. I was told that the cabinet's very, very solid. It just needs some new decals. The play field's really nice. It needs a shop job. That's literally what I was told. It was in great shape other than those two things. What were the two things? A cabinet and a shop job. The cabinet needed to be re-decaled. Yeah. And it needed a shop job. Right. Okay. So, you know, okay, great. So make a deal with this guy. Pick up Rowan. Bring it home. First thing I do, plug it in. Nothing on the play field turns on. Open it up. The play field's not even hooked up. This is like missing major parts to make it run, too, isn't it? No acid damage. Oh, that was the other thing. No acid damage on this game. The board was covered and couldn't even be salvaged. Battery corrosion. That's how bad this game was. You know, topper was cracked. Don't worry, the topper's there. It's real nice. Now, this is a case where literally I called the dude, you know, half hour after I left him and said, hey, dude, we have a big problem. Would not answer the phone. Blew up his phone for eight hours. Call me now. Did you pick it up? We met locally in the Chicagoland area. So you weren't able to kind of set it up and take a look at it? No, I was not. So he wouldn't answer the phone until he got home the next day. Because he was driving back. Because he was driving back to the St. Louis area. Right. So he finally calls me back. I couldn't answer because my phone was going to die. Dude, what kind of lame excuse is that? I know. There's no phone charger, obviously, when you're on a 700-mile trip. Yeah, so him and I got into it, and I'm like, dude, this game is not what you promised. You knew that there were more faults with it, and you misrepresented this. Sure. And this was crap, and you wrapped your game up, and I couldn't really test it in the parking lot. I remember you were fired up. And it wasn't that you were trying to figure it out, but you just couldn't reach the seller. Yeah, and he was dodging me. Burning you, yeah. I remember this. And then literally I was so pissed off. And I'm one of those people that if you tell me I can't do something or you think I won't do something, just wait because it's going to happen. Right. Hold my beer. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, dude, no problem. And he's like, well, we made the deal. I'm like, listen, dude, you lied. This game is not what you said. I'm like, dude, I'm driving to St. Louis and I'm picking up the game that I just traded you. Oh, we made a deal, man. No, dude, F that. Yeah, see, that's not good. And you wonder if somebody because I can understand if somebody thought that the condition was better than it actually was because they just didn't know. But if somebody goes out of their way to misrepresent something, knowing that you're not going to be able to go through something to verify that and you're going on like a stranger's trust, so to speak, it really puts you in a bad spot. But, you know, on the flip side of things, though, you probably learn from that experience and you're like, you know what, I'm not going to put myself in that experience ever again. You know, cost of an education. Yeah. What I chalk it up to. That and when the whirlwind is done, you know, this is my other pride and joy that I have not even spoken on, you know, to anyone. And this will be the first time that even Ken's hearing this. The moment it's done, I literally plan on sending him a text message, hoping God he doesn't listen to this podcast. Oh, yeah, right. And be like, hey, dude, I would love to trade you this whirlwind plus what you gave me in cash back for my fishtails. And when he says you're out of your effing mind, okay, no problem. Oh, by the way, I did change it up and here's how it looks now. Made some improvements. Yeah. Right? You know, here it is, you know, $4,200 or $4,500 in. I like how you're still waiting to get the last word on this guy, which I think is, I like that. How long have you had Whirlwind then? When did this happen? October. Okay. The trade happened in September. I didn't start breaking it down until October. It was right before Expo last year, right? Yeah. It's all coming back to me now. Yeah. See, I'm to the point now where it's like, I don't like going on Craigslist anymore looking for games. because I mean, that's just as a, there's so much like trolling going on. I think with fake ads on Facebook, I think all the guys in our area that are the buyers and the sellers all respond to each other's ads to see what everybody has. And it's like, it just causes a big mess. So I've gone off of Craigslist altogether. Um, there were a couple other places I used to check in at like the app opera offer up. I used to check in at, um, and then the other one is let go. And there are just a couple local guys in the Chicagoland area that just pelt that with ads. And when something comes up, it's not up for very long. It's just such – it's frustrating. So what I ended up doing now is I really just prefer buying and selling or at least buying with friends people that I know I think we built such a nice group of people that we can depend on that extend out of the state of Illinois even Way out, yeah. You're talking about St. Louis. I love the fact that St. Louis is never an area where I would have thought that I would look for pinball machines. Just because it's a long ride to be disappointed if something's not explained properly with the condition. But to have Jason Fowler. and Chris Haper from Slap Save Pinball Podcast. They've both been like, hey, if you guys have anything down here, let us know because we'll look at it for you and even hold it for you until you can come pick it up. I love that. I love being able to extend that favor out here to them, too. And it's just so tremendous. It's tremendous value to have friends that are in the hobby that can look at a game and they're educated to know what to look for, whether it's play field, where inserts popping. Yes. You know. Inserts are something that I don't think a lot of people really put a lot of weight into because when you go look at a game and I learned this pretty early in the hobby when I when I was selling a game, a guy came out and, you know, he went through the whole machine. Now, I'm somebody that I try to be overly critical of what a false that I'm explaining, because when somebody comes up, I want them to be like, wow, better than described. Yes. You know, this is a pleasant surprise. But this guy came out and it was the first time I'd ever seen it. And you go out, you lift the play field, you look underneath, and you look behind the back glass. And you're going through your checks. You want to look for water. You want to look for corrosion on boards. Hacked up harnesses. Yeah, for sure, like all that stuff. But this guy, like, took his, like, he looked up in the air and took his hands and just rubbed it all over the play field. And I was like, what is this guy doing? But he was looking for, like, raised or cupped inserts. And it made perfect sense to do that. So, like, nowadays, like, it's always something that, because you won't necessarily see that. No, no, no. You've got to run your hand across it. But on older games, like a Paragon is something that, like cupped inserts, or something that's very normal, but you want to go in there and check. I've seen plenty of T2s that have the raised inserts that have popped up. So little things like that. Now listen, we realize that a lot of you guys that are listening to the show already know all this. But it's just kind of interesting for us to kind of go back and think about how things have changed, not just with pricing, but the way that we approach pinball, you know, buying and selling. and for, again, new people that might be getting into the hobby, we want to just touch base on some of this stuff because I think it's important. And everybody has a story of horror and victory when it comes to buying and selling pinball, right? Yeah, and honestly, I think, you know what, here, what I always kind of come back to is this is the cost of your education to get in this business or get in this hobby. Yeah. Period. You're going to learn, and it's going to cost you some money. Hopefully, you have a lot of people that are educated that can teach you these things, and you don't have to learn by yourself, and you can not make the mistakes that a lot of us have made by overpaying, by getting a play field that's, you know, tacoed in the center, you know, where the ball goes down the middle. Yep. You know, cracked ramps, acid damage, all these other fun things that, you know, are very cheap to fix. I think one of the most important things that you can do for yourself if you are new in the hobby is to reach out and find people locally that are pinball enthusiasts and try to get into a group or a club that meets and just start networking. In fact, there was a gentleman, his name's Courtney, had bought some pins from our buddy Steve. And I think his first two pins that he bought were from Steve. And he just reached out. He listened to the show. And it turns out he's in St. Charles, Illinois, right where we are out of. And it's great that this guy felt comfortable to reach out to us because, hey, where he might be newer, this guy's eat, sleeping, everything pinball right now. Oh, and I do need to give a little shout out to Albert over at Pinball Nerds Podcast because Eat, Sleep, Bet Pinball was a title that we used for one of our prior episodes. And that's like kind of his taglines that he signs all of his shows off is Eat, Sleep, Breathe Pinball. So I always kind of enjoyed that. And we add the title after the show. So I didn't really think to reach out to him on that. But he had some fun with one of his podcasts called Pinspiracies. and it was about did the special and lit steal his tagline without his permission and he had some X-Files fun with it. So if you haven't listened to Albert at Pinball Nerds podcast, give him a listen. This guy's out there doing podcasts multiple times a day sometimes and he's into streaming and everything. Go check him out. Tell him special and lit pinball podcast said hello. But I digress. What was I talking about, Bill? Because I totally lost track of what I was even saying. We were talking about pinball and so Courtney reached out to us yeah and i thought how cool is it that he that he felt comfortable to reach out to us and and now this is another guy that we have that's kind of in our group uh hopefully come out to our pinball nights and all that sort of thing if you're in our area definitely reach out to us because we get together frequently and uh you know the more the merrier is the way i look at it for sure oh yeah you know it's funny because every time we've you know been in a room with uh people that are in the industry that we respect really well or people that are just getting into pinball we always have nothing it seems but a good time because we're just talking about something we both you know everyone enjoys and it makes it so easier i mean it's you know that's the proverbial icebreaker and then learning everybody's past on how they got into into it and it just really makes for a great time the thing you'll realize too is that you might be hanging out with people from all walks of life who you normally would never run into in your own social circle but because you have pinball in common it kind of broadens your horizons and it allows you the uh the opportunity to meet people that you normally wouldn't meet with. Yeah. Well, not associate. Associate sounds like you're discriminating against somebody for. Well, there are some whack job pinball guys that I for sure would probably never associate with. But they have the best stories, man. So the Stern Pro Circuit Championship took place Saturday, this past Saturday. And let's congratulate the winner, Andy Rosa. So first and foremost, all the big names seem to have gotten knocked out early, I guess. Full disclosure, I didn't watch this tournament. I went in and I just kind of bounced in and out a few times throughout the day. I'm not a tournament-driven pinball enthusiast, but I think that the respect is there for the players, and we wanted to congratulate Andy. It was a 13-hour-plus tournament. What are your thoughts on a tournament starting in the morning and going 13 hours? That's a long day to be playing pinball. That's a long day. You know what? And I was talking to somebody today that works for a pinball manufacturer, and they questioned that, too. They're like, 13 hours is pretty long, especially because they had entertainment that was going on. You had Jack Danger that was hosting. Like, Ed Robertson's there, and he's going to be doing his live performance. You had 13 hours. When this tournament ends, it's like 11 o'clock at night. So when you think the party should be starting to celebrate the winner of this tournament, like everyone's ready to just go home. It's 11 o'clock. You know, you're not going to start a party at 11 o'clock. This person had recommended, and I thought it was a great idea, something at this magnitude that was given a lot of media coverage. We knew that ESPN came in because they were documenting this to be played on ESPN in August. So there's going to be like a programming dedicated to this tournament, probably an hour long. So they're editing 13 hours of coverage in like an hour. Wouldn't it make sense just to split it up over two days, maybe? And then you've got two shorter days, and on that second day, you've got all that time available to throw a party and celebrate the champion and all the competitors. And people aren't having to watch stream for 13 straight. I mean, that's a lot of time. I can't do anything. I can't even sleep for 13 hours. I mean, literally, I can't do it. Yeah. I can't do it. I don't know. I don't know how the competitors do 13 hours. I was just going to say, you know, bless them for being able to stand there for 13 hours and play pinball. You know, even if it was a stranded island, I don't know if I could play for 13 hours. 13 hours is tough. I mean, these guys aren't playing for 13 hours straight, but it almost would benefit them if they were, because to just sit and have to wait and have to wait all day long. Let me ask you a question with Andy. So Andy, he's getting Andy Rosa, the champion, right? Yep. He's getting some media and pinball enthusiast coverage today because as he wins this championship, and he wins $2,500 cash and a brand new Stern pinball machine. So that's worth it for 13 hours of your time for sure. Oh, yeah. Right? So he comes out, and he's got this literally like this coal miner head lamp on his head. Like a mechanics lamp on his head. Right. Underneath that, he's got like a beanie stocking hat. He's got headphones on. He's got gloves. So this is how he competed through the tournament. What are your impressions of that whole? I don't fault the gloves. Don't spread germs. I like it. So that part I'll give him credit on. The whole headlamp thing, you know, I personally would feel like that's not, you know, anyone, I guess, could do it because obviously he did. But I would feel like that's almost an unfair advantage. So I personally wouldn't do it. But are headphones an unfair advantage? I see tournament players wearing headphones. I see tournament players wearing sunglasses at times. But they're not modifying the game with light, though, in my opinion. If they choose not to take all the light because they're wearing glasses, so be it. But adding light on top of it? So you're saying deductive is fine, but additive should not be allowed. I don't know what the rules are with the tournaments. And we don't know anything. Competitive pinball is not our thing. No, it's not. It's not at all. But you know what? I thought it was worth talking about this just because of the exposure that Pinball was getting. Now, what I think is fun on this is that ESPN covers this tournament, right? So at the end, and they have this whole thing edited up that's going to be on ESPN The Ocho again like in August, I believe. Yep. You're going to see from start to the end, I'm assuming, like quick flashes. But I love that Andy Rosa won this tournament just looking like he just did an honest day's work, man. He's got his work gloves on. He's got his light on. He's got a light on. He looks like he went to battle, like he just crawled out of a mine. He kind of looks like a minion in that picture, dude. He looks like he just – I didn't want to say that, but, I mean, it's true. But, hey, God bless, dude. Oh, like from the movie Minions? Yeah, dude. He's got a little headlamp on, you know, whatever. Right, right. But, you know, God – hey, guess what, dude? He just won $2,500 in a free machine. So guess what? I'd strap two headlights to my head if I could win a game. The exposure pinball is getting is at the end of this tournament on ESPN. You're going to see Andy like are people going to think that like that's like the stereotypical like pinball attire when you're competing? I don't know. But I will say this. It absolutely draws interest. We were talking about on another show, and I'm trying to remember exactly who we were talking to, that if pinball is going to evolve and become more mainstream with media and tournament coverage and stuff like that, pinball – oh, we were talking to Steve Bowden about this. Pinball personalities, I think, can actually drive pinball. Like I could see a reality show of pinball, like maybe just the tournament coverage, I think would be something that could be edited if you had the personalities. and Andy looks like he's got the tire all set up. I have not met Andy. I've spoken to a couple people today that have all said great things about this guy. He's a super nice guy, and he's always two shots. I was talking to Brent Bruner today from Great Lakes Pinball. He's like, Andy is always two shots ahead. When the ball's up, he knows the next two moves the ball's going to make, and he just kind of dissects the game that way. And you've got to be a special kind of person to be able to compete and play under pressure. So honestly, I know we're kind of poking a little bit of fun, but Andy, congratulations. I'm not poking fun, man. I think it's awesome that you did. I was a little bit with the minions thing. But you know what? Congratulations. I'm glad you won. I'm glad you got a nice new machine, and congratulations to you for that. Yeah, it's cool. And it sounds like overwhelmingly it was a nice success for Stern Pinball and for all the tournament players. So congratulations to everybody that went out. Congratulations to Andy. And with the strong personalities, dude, we should just start keeping up with the sharps. Kind of like keeping up with the Kardashians. Oh, the Sharps? Yeah. Tell me you don't want to follow Roger around for half a day. Yeah. You know, you've got Roger, Josh, and Zach. Yeah. Right? Those guys are very pinball involved, so you never know. You have to be a t-shirt from Stern, keeping up with the Sharps. Keeping up with the Sharps. But, hey, let's do this. Let's play a little Drain It or Save It. Are you ready? Yep. It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. All right. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by our friends at Lermods.com. Lermods.com offers quality mods and playfield lighting for your pinball machine. Special listeners can use coupon code SWL10 for 10% off your online order. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit Lermods.com today. So you want to guide us through a little Drain It or Save It today, Bill? I would love to. Now, all the Drain It or Save It's this week were contributed by some of our listeners. So we'll give you guys the proper shout-outs as we go through, and Bill's going to drive this train today. All right, so I got my conductor's hat on. Let's do this. Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop. So, Mr. Ken, new games without knockers was a question brought to you by Cary Hardy. Brought to you by Cary. Oh, the new addition is straight down the middle, Cary Hardy, by the way. Okay. Yeah, you got to check out Cary. Yep, yep. Yeah, so new pins without knockers. I'm going to absolutely drain it. I think that knockers are actually a pretty important part of satisfying part of pinball When you know that you reached a high score or you done something special in the game and you hear that smack on the from the inside of the cabinet it's a little startling but it's satisfying at the same time because you know everybody knows that that knocker went off and something's going on in the machine that you play where where it's disappointing to me and maybe it's just what it is is when you hear like like that that like stern has that weird squelch that happens in place of a knocker it's like that on the speaker i don't like that like in fact i like to like disable that and turn that off i think if you can get a knocker installed from the factory even if it costs the factory an extra 40 or 50 and i don't think that's the case it just makes sense to me to have a knocker so uh new machines without knockers i'm absolutely going to drain it you know i'm gonna have to drain that as well ken there's nothing like playing the game like adam's family and then the side the knockers mounted to the side of the cabinet it just scares the snot out of people it's startling it is a great feeling so yeah when you get that little squelch it definitely is not as prominent as a pinball knocker. And with what people are paying, I do think that the knocker should be included. So the next question is by Chris Grosvenor. Grosvenor. Grosvenor. Sorry, Chris, if we butchered your last name. Yeah, my bad. And he is asking about alcohol during pinball competition. Do you drain it or do you save it? I would save alcohol during competition, whether it be a tournament or a competition at your house. I think for a lot of players, a drink or two or a cocktail or two can help take the edge off to kind of relax you. For me, it sometimes goes beyond relaxation because, listen, I'm not competitively going out to take down, you know, get a $2,500 prize in a new Stern pinball machine. Where I think it could obviously cause a problem is if drinking too much, you know, delays your level of competition at that point. But that's a judgment call for yourself. But as far as being able to drink or accepting some alcohol during competition, absolutely save it. Why not? Just be responsible with it. I agree with you. I would have to save it as well. You know, as long as there isn't belligerent or cops getting called out, you know, I would be on board with saving that as well. So then the next question is by Ian Harrow. I hope we got that right. Parting out machines. Do you drain that or do you save that? Well, I mean, there's a disclaimer with parting out a machine, and I'm going to save parting out machines, and only if the machine is not generally salvageable to restore to its, or at least try to refurbish to its original condition. See, this is a trick question, Ken, because it's not, you know, it's not an example question. Save or drain it, drain it or save it. Right, right. So I'm going to save parting out machines. And the reason why is because if you have a machine that really is only serviceable for parts, I think that those parts can go on to other owners that are looking for parts in order to save their machine and prevent them from parting out that machine. So I think it's a necessary evil to part out machines when it calls for it. Under that pretense, I am absolutely going to save parting out pinball machines. Bill. All right. So I would have to save it as well, only because, you know, when you have a game that the cabinet's trashed, playfield's trashed, rats were living in it, whatever, but they're still good mechs or they're still good parts that can keep other games going, definitely, you know, let's see it be reused and keep other games going. That said, when you hear these stories where somebody are taking, you know, a complete working machine that's dirty and needs a shop job or, you know, might need some love or would be a great pin for somebody's first pin, you know uh ratted out t2 you know blasted up and down the sides you know a 1500 pin by today's standards but that's somebody's dream team because they played it as a kid i you know i don't believe in taking a game that is working or could be uh salvaged um you know get it working relatively easily and cost effective and turning it into a parts machine i agree so i i agree with you on that one i would definitely uh um save that so we're in total agreement this week as it looks like. So games without knockers, we drained it. Absolutely. Alcohol consumption during pinball competition, we saved it. And then parting out pinball machines. I'm going to save alcohol consumption during podcasting also. Parting out pinball machines, we're saving that as well. So, Kerry, Chris, and Ian, we appreciate everything with the contributions, and we've got a lot of excellent topics on the website for Drain It or Save It, so we will see some of those coming up in the future. Now, if you want to come play Drain It or Save It with us, please do this. Please feel free to message us three topics that are essentially a yes or a no topic. And if we like all three of your topics and you're willing to come on, you can come play a little drain it or save it with Ken and Bill. Absolutely. Have you on the show for our nice little three or four minute segment. And everybody that reached out and posted on our Facebook, we really do appreciate that. Thank you for taking the time. I mean, getting caught up in our lives, I personally can definitely see how So you don't have a lot of time to do things. So for the people that did contribute and put stuff on there, whether we used it or not, we are very grateful that you took time out of your day to do that. Yeah, absolutely. Whether we used it or not, it does mean a lot to us that we do have people engaged and involved on our Facebook and messaging us. Yeah, we discussed all these topics that everybody had brought to us too. So just because it's not on this show today, I wouldn't doubt that it's not on the show next week or the week after that. It's fun because I really appreciate, like you said, people that post on our page. I've gotten to know some people on a personal level that have listened to the show and have contributed and have messaged us privately. So for that, I'm grateful also. So I like having an active community. I like to keep that Facebook page rolling. So if you have anything to contribute, and it doesn't even have to be show-oriented, but if it's pinball and you want to share it, post it on our Facebook page, which is Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. Let's get the conversation going because if it's a hot topic that maybe we haven't discovered or if it's something that's been out of the norm that we didn't know existed, love to have that on our page so we can talk about it on the show. We're always open to ideas. And quite frankly, right now leading up to TPF, I don't think there's any surprise that it's been a little bit slow going for the news. So that's why we've been trying to get into some more topics and segments just to do something differently than what you're already hearing on other shows on Monday. So here you are into a Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday, and we're just having some pinball conversations. So thanks for joining us on the Special Elite Pinball Podcast. Yes, thank you very much. So what's going on with Whirlwind? In Bill's corner, we've had updates every single week, and I think you've got some major progress that happened recently, and I think a pinball mystery that was solved in regards to Whirlwind. Yeah, it's actually funny because our Whirlwind segment this week is actually kind of a pinball mystery and the update on Whirlwind. So last week, after I said that I had dealt with a couple hours of having no 5 volts, I got about 14 hours tied up into this to not have any resolution up until earlier today. Thanks to our good friend Scott Dinesi who kind of pointed out the obvious, I figured out what was wrong. So what it turned out being was when I had the back box metal plate that the boards attached to powder coated, I put some extra clips in thinking that I lost some instead of realizing, hey, there shouldn't be an extra clip right in the center where the CPU goes. So when I was mounting the CPU down, it was shorting out on that extra contact right in the center, and I was getting no 5 volts. I was dead in the water. Is that why when you were pressing on it, it was losing contact, gaining contact, so you were getting the very old variants? Yeah, but it took about 12 hours to figure out if the board was loose off of the metal plate holder. Yeah. It was fine. And if I left the top center screw and the left center screw and the left side loose, it had voltage. So, you know, shout out to our good friend Scott. Scott, you're the man. Thank you again. So 13 hours into dissecting that, and it was like three minutes with Scott Denisey at Pinball Life. Yeah. And he figured that out. Yeah. So for those of you that need tech support and you've, you know. Exhausted all options. The number for Scott Denisey at Pinball Life is area code 847. Yeah. No, no, no. And, you know, in all fairness, I did tell Scott if that was it, man, I was going to have to buy him Mexican food. So we're going to go out for a burrito for that. So you can go out to the place that he wanted to go after we had him on the show last time, right? Absolutely. Or two times ago we went for that Mexican food. Yep. You haven't been talking about Mexican food lately. No, I didn't want to get it to get too old or repetitive. Okay. And you know what? Yeah. And honestly, with that problem, I literally had tested every component from the cord, switch box, switch, transformer, second harness to the power supply board because I had an extra supply harness, switching cords between earth shakers, switching boards between earth shakers. Everything that was in Whirlwind would work in earth shaker, but it wouldn't work in Whirlwind. I mean, literally exhausted every single option. And, you know, shout out to our buddy Mike Fox, too. He tried to help me a few nights. Diagnosed us over the phone. Our buddy Dave in Plainfield, he was willing to give me some parts to see if that might have been it because I didn't want to go tearing into Earthshaker, you know, other than maybe a board or two. So that was nice. That was refreshing to get that resolved today. And then as far as other updates with it, so I really started getting into populating the play field over the weekend because I was so disappointed with the board situation that I couldn't figure out. So I'm probably about, I don't know, four to six hours away from having the underside completely done, and I can flip it over and start populating the top. That's nice. So are you on schedule or behind schedule or ahead of schedule? I'm going to say. Because it was at 420 was kind of your makeshift deadline for yourself, right? It was. You know what, though? I mean, anytime I've ever said to somebody or I've heard somebody say, you know, this game is going to fight, you know, after they've done a play field swap or whatever you might have, that this game is going to fire up and we're going to have no problems. Listen, you know, when you dig that far into a machine, you're always going to have something that's not right, something that needs to be adjusted, et cetera. Honestly, I did a CPR play field for this whirlwind, and I cannot tell you how many holes that were dimpled were actually not where they needed to be. Yeah, that's hard. So, you know, between that and switches that are going to need adjusting and stuff like that. Why is that? Is it that there were different variances between plate fields that they had seen seed? Or why is there a difference in the placement of the dimples? Do you have any idea? You know what? I mean, honestly, let's just start with something simple. Maybe their machine was off. Yeah, okay, I see. Maybe they grabbed, you know, two different manufacturers for the plate field. Because you're paying good money for these plate fields. I mean, to have to move around and re-drill just makes me uncomfortable. Like if I'm going to spend $800, $900 on a playfield, I would hope I don't have to make any major modifications to it. Yeah, but it is what it is, and if you want a nicer playfield than what I was promised out of St. Louis, well, that's what you're going to deal with. Yeah, that's true. So I've got a couple more assemblies to assemble, probably about 18 more wires to solder up, and then go through everything, make sure everything is exactly where it needs to be. nothing needs to be tightened down and then in theory i should be hopefully flipping it over to start working on the top side this weekend so awesome man we'll have to get some pictures and update the facebook page probably midweek if that's uh good with you yeah absolutely for sure and uh do it yeah it's plugging along so good yeah other than that i think that's about it man i think that's a wrap for this episode yeah i think that's going to be episode 42 of special one late pinball podcast. Now, next week on episode 43, we're going to bring in our buddy Steve Beattie. He's going to be with us throughout Texas Pinball Festival. So the three of us are headed down Partners in Crime. Now, originally, we had thought that we were going to leave our recording equipment at home. We just wanted to experience the show for what it is without worrying about having to do any added recording or editing. I think since then, we've gotten motivated to bring our recording equipment it down and and uh we're gonna be trying to give you on the spot content hopefully with daily uploads uh between the three of us so that'll be fun you guys will get to know steve just a little bit more as he'll be uh down there with us we do want to thank lermods.com uh for sponsoring the drain it or save it segment and again special when lit listeners can use a coupon code it's swl10 swl10 at checkout get 10 off your order and rob and kim uh will be uh they have a booth at tpf for LearMods. So, yeah, definitely go check them out while you're at TPF and pick up some stuff and hope to see you down there. Hey, and if anybody has the Munsters that they're getting now, I just got this in the mail from them, and it's their Coach Car mod, their LED mod. Go check that out and use the coupon code. Get the 10% off because that Coach Car mod is pretty awesome, and it's been a big seller for them. So if you haven't already done so, go give it a look Because if you're looking for a tasteful mod for, you know, Munsters, I highly recommend picking one up. And don't forget, we do have our t-shirts still online. Got to throw that out there. Yeah, $29 for our shirts. If you want to pick one up at Texas Pinball Festival, just message us, and it's $25. We'll bring it down to the show for you. All in all, exciting times in pinball, starting with the countdown to TPF. And we'll be back next week, same bat time, same bat channel, with our buddy Steve Beattie. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: b0f23a16-f6f6-495c-988c-f20addc874da*