# Episode 115 - The Age of Desperation and Innovation: Gottlieb System 80A **Source:** Wedgehead Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2026-04-06 **Duration:** 74m 56s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** Buzzsprout-18920778 --- ## Analysis Wedgehead Pinball Podcast Episode 115 provides a deep historical analysis of Gottlieb's System 80A era (1982-1985), a period marked by managerial chaos, innovative desperation, and experimental game design. Hosts Alex and Alan review approximately 20 games from this era using a 'stick or plop' rating system, discussing how financial pressure and competition drove Gottlieb to take creative risks—some successful (Devil's Dare, Spirit) and others less so (Caveman, Rocky). The episode highlights rare prototype games, European market strategies, designer credits, and the lasting legacy of this transitional period in pinball history. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Devil's Dare sold 3,800 units and was the most successful System 80A game — _Alex and Alan discussing Devil's Dare early in episode_ - [HIGH] Devil's Dare was the first game with a multiball restart feature — _Alan stating this explicitly during Devil's Dare segment_ - [HIGH] Caveman was the first hybrid pinball-video game, predating Baby Pac-Man — _Alex introducing Caveman as 'the first hybrid pinball video game' before Baby Pac-Man_ - [HIGH] Rocky sold 1,500 units and was Marc Trudeau's first Gottlieb design credit — _Hosts discussing Rocky's production numbers and Trudeau's early career_ - [MEDIUM] Spirit (1,200 units produced) appears to have been primarily distributed to Europe, making US examples rare reimports — _Alan stating 'most or maybe all of these went to Europe' and noting local example is a reimport_ - [MEDIUM] Spirit is considered by many older solid-state Gottlieb collectors to be the definitive game of the System 80A era — _Hosts discussing Spirit as 'the Cadillac of the ADAs' and describing it as a grail game_ - [HIGH] Going Nuts is a canceled prototype with only ~10 copies made; one is publicly playable at the Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas — _Hosts discussing Going Nuts as a canceled game with Alan confirming he played it at Hall of Fame_ - [MEDIUM] Black Hole's designer credit is disputed between 'Adolph Seitz Jr.' and 'Shing Lam' across databases, with possibility of pseudonym use — _Alex discussing designer credit confusion for Going Nuts and Black Hole, speculating about anglicized names_ ### Notable Quotes > "Gottlieb was the king of pinball for decades. They had the designers, they had the artists, they had the build quality, most importantly, they had the sales. But they did not have the foresight to see what an impact solid state technology would have on the industry." > — **Alan**, early in episode > _Sets up the historical context for why Gottlieb entered the System 80A era in crisis_ > "I think it's appropriate to say the 80s were a bit of a mess for Gottlieb, but historically, when pinball companies got in trouble, it leads to some very interesting games. They start throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks." > — **Alex**, opening segment > _Core thesis of the episode—desperation drives innovation_ > "It's the Cadillac of the ADAs. Yeah it is loaded dope art package... There can't be one that's heavier than this. That made it to production." > — **Alex and Alan discussing Spirit**, Spirit segment > _Spirit is positioned as the peak bill-of-material game in the System 80A era_ > "I love that. That's the best shit. Cause it adds like tension to the like single ball element, it's great, it just works perfect." > — **Alan**, Devil's Dare discussion > _Praise for multiball restart mechanic as superior to modern ball saves_ > "If this was like not Rocky themed, if it was knockoff Rocky, like the Gottliebs I love, you know, when they're clear knockoffs and it was like $1,000, I'd be like, oh, this thing's cool as hell. I'd be giving it a stick. With all that context, I'm giving it a plop." > — **Alex**, Rocky discussion > _Critiques the secondary market pricing of licensed Gottlieb games_ > "People have been clamoring for an ADA episode. I like this era of goofy shit." > — **Alan**, mid-episode > _Acknowledges community interest in this historical period_ > "It's one of the canceled games that you think actually had potential. I think this game is fun as hell. It's very... It's a gimmick. Like it's a time-based game... constant multiball. You're trying your squirrel trying to get all your nuts." > — **Alan on Going Nuts**, Going Nuts segment > _Praise for a canceled prototype's innovative mechanics_ > "You wonder if it's like a pseudonym, like they tried to adopt a more anglicized, a whiter name. They were an Asian designer working in the industry at this time" > — **Alex**, Going Nuts/Black Hole designer discussion > _Raises historical question about name adoption in pinball industry_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Gottlieb | company | Major historical pinball manufacturer; subject of episode covering their System 80A era (1982-1985) when company was in financial crisis and experimenting with game design | | Stern Pinball | company | Mentioned as competitor that was making 'good games' during Gottlieb's difficult 1980s period | | Alex | person | Co-host of Wedgehead Pinball Podcast, based in Portland, Oregon; primary analyst and interviewer on this episode | | Alan | person | Co-host of Wedgehead Pinball Podcast; provides color commentary and personal play experience on System 80A games | | Devil's Dare | game | Gottlieb System 80A game (1982), Tom Safransky design, 3,800 units sold; most successful System 80A title; first game with multiball restart feature | | Caveman | game | Gottlieb System 80A hybrid pinball-video game (pre-dating Baby Pac-Man), John Burris design, 1,800 units; featured CRT monitor in playfield | | Rocky | game | Gottlieb System 80A (1982), Marc Trudeau first design credit, 1,500 units; licensed theme based on Rocky film; featured in Rocky III arcade scene; sells for $10-12K | | Spirit | game | Gottlieb System 80A (1982-85), Marc Trudeau design, 1,200 units; heavily feature-loaded with playfield display, 2-inch flipper saves, rare collector grail; primarily distributed to Europe; sells $7-8K | | Striker | game | Gottlieb System 80A soccer-themed game, Marc Trudeau design, 910 units; another European-focused title with double flipper arrangement; sells ~$5K | | Punk | game | Gottlieb System 80A (1982-85), Tom Safransky design, 900 units; punk-rock themed; sought-after collector game; appears European market-focused | | Going Nuts | game | Canceled Gottlieb System 80A prototype (~10 copies), squirrel-themed time-based multiball game with 7 scattered pop bumpers; publicly playable copy at Pinball Hall of Fame Vegas; valued ~$50K; design credit disputed | | Kroll | game | Canceled Gottlieb System 80A prototype, Marc Trudeau design, Keith Parkinson art; featured Liam Neeson movie license; upper and lower playfields | | Black Hole | game | Pre-System 80A Gottlieb game (System 80 era); designer credit disputed between 'Adolph Seitz Jr.' and 'Shing Lam' across databases; likely source designer for Going Nuts prototype | | Marc Trudeau | person | Pinball designer; early work includes Rocky, Spirit, Striker, Kroll for Gottlieb System 80A; hosts note his style becoming evident in Spirit | | Tom Safransky | person | Gottlieb System 80A designer; designed Devil's Dare (3,800 units) and Punk (900 units) | | Doug Watson | person | Gottlieb artist; art for Devil's Dare and Rocky; original Doug Watson backglass for Devil's Dare was modified by Gottlieb to remove provocative imagery | | David Moore | person | Gottlieb artist; worked on Rocky, Striker, and Punk artwork | | Terry Dorzapf | person | Gottlieb artist; created space/celestial artwork for Spirit game | | John Burris | person | Gottlieb designer; designed Caveman hybrid pinball-video game for System 80A | | Wedgehead Pinball | venue | Pinball arcade/location in Portland, Oregon operated by hosts; currently hosting visiting Spirit machine for community play | | Pinball Hall of Fame | venue | Vegas-based pinball museum; houses publicly playable Going Nuts prototype | | Coca-Cola | company | Purchased Columbia Pictures (which owned Gottlieb); led to management changes and company renaming | | Mylstar | company | Interim name for Gottlieb after Coca-Cola ownership; lasted approximately one year before being sold again | | Baby Pac-Man | game | Referenced as later hybrid pinball-video game; Caveman noted as predating it | | Black Knight | game | Mentioned in passing as classic Gottlieb game with MagnaSave flippers; compared to Batman 66 design similarities | ### Topics - **Primary:** Gottlieb System 80A era history and game lineup (1982-1985) - **Secondary:** Designer credit accuracy and historical documentation challenges, Canceled prototype machines and their design innovations, Secondary market pricing and collector value of rare Gottlieb games, European vs. North American market distribution strategies in early 1980s pinball, Game design mechanics: multiball restart vs. ball save, double flipper arrangements, hybrid video-pinball integration - **Mentioned:** Playfield feature density and complexity in System 80A games, Satanic panic era and its marketing impact on Devil's Dare ### Sentiment **Neutral** (0) ### Signals - **[historical_signal]** Gottlieb's late adoption of solid-state technology and loss of market dominance forced experimental game design in System 80A era; financial pressure drove high-risk thematic and mechanical innovations (confidence: high) — Alex: 'But they did not have the foresight to see what an impact solid state technology would have on the industry... when pinball companies got in trouble, it leads to some very interesting games' - **[market_signal]** Multiple System 80A games (Spirit, Striker, Punk, Rocky) show evidence of European market focus and distribution, suggesting Gottlieb's retreat from struggling North American market (confidence: medium) — Alan: 'it really seems like that's because... most or maybe all of these went to Europe' and hosts noting these games are rare in US but sought after globally - **[collector_signal]** Games with low production runs (900-1,500 units) command high secondary market prices ($5K-$12K), yet availability and collector interest vary dramatically; some games like Spirit are grail items while mechanically similar games are overlooked (confidence: high) — Rocky (1,500 units, $10-12K), Spirit (1,200 units, $7-8K), Striker (910 units, ~$5K); hosts note disparity between rarity and desirability - **[design_innovation]** Devil's Dare introduced multiball restart feature (ability to restart multiball after drain) as alternative to modern ball save mechanics; hosts praise this as superior design creating tension (confidence: high) — Alan: 'This is the first game to do it... Restarting multiballs is so much cooler than ball saves on multiballs... it adds like tension' - **[design_innovation]** Caveman (pre-dating Baby Pac-Man) integrated CRT video game screen directly into playfield, introducing expensive bespoke components and altering playfield design; early attempt at pinball-arcade hybrid (confidence: high) — Alex: 'This is the first hybrid pinball video game... It's got a very funny CRT monitor in the back of the playfield... in the playfield, which majorly impacts the playfield design' - **[design_innovation]** Rocky and Striker both featured dual flipper pairs (two left, two right) enabling split-flip play; mechanical novelty with mixed gameplay results (confidence: high) — Hosts discussing Rocky and Striker sharing 'double flippers down at the bottom, like two standard flipper arrangements' for split-flip play - **[product_concern]** Going Nuts and Black Hole show conflicting designer credits across databases (e.g., 'Adolph Seitz Jr.' vs. 'Shing Lam'); uncertainty suggests possible pseudonym use or lost documentation (confidence: medium) — Alex: 'design credit on Pinside is listed as Adolph Seitz Jr. And then on IPDB, it's listed as Shing Lam... Two very unique names... You wonder if it's like a pseudonym, like they tried to adopt a more anglicized, a whiter name' - **[sentiment_shift]** Hosts acknowledge System 80A games were previously overlooked but community ('people have been clamoring for an ADA episode') now recognizes era's experimental significance and mechanical innovation (confidence: medium) — Alan: 'People have been clamoring for an ADA episode. I like this era of goofy shit.' - **[venue_signal]** Wedgehead Pinball acquiring Spirit (normally unavailable to public) for floor placement; facilitates community access to highly sought collector machine (confidence: high) — Hosts noting Spirit will be on Wedgehead floor 'so that's pretty sick' and explaining episode timing around machine arrival - **[business_signal]** Coca-Cola's acquisition of Columbia Pictures (Gottlieb's parent) triggered management turmoil: renaming to Mylstar, then sale to another group (Premier), creating instability that drove experimental design philosophy (confidence: high) — Alex: 'Coca-Cola purchased Columbia Pictures, who owned Gottlieb at the time... changed the pinball company's name to Mylstar, and then a year later sold the company to a different group who would go on to change the name to Premier' - **[personality_and_industry_culture]** Marc Trudeau's early System 80A work (Rocky, Spirit, Striker, Kroll) marks emergence as significant designer; hosts note his design hallmarks becoming evident in Spirit (confidence: medium) — Hosts noting Trudeau's early games and saying 'John Trudeau really starts cooking here... you start seeing the hallmarks of his' style in Spirit --- ## Transcript ourd tenha Out of touch, out of time, out of time, out of time, out of time. Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast, the only podcast about pinball from Wedgehead, We're here in Portland, Oregon, right? You don't have any others that I should know about, do you? This is the only one. My name is Alex, the water boy. I'm joined today in my basement studio by my faithful co-host, Alan. Alan, how are you doing? I'm doing great, water boy. Are you? Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah, just think that's it. I'm just great for no reason. Well, that's good. What are we talking about today? Today we're talking about Gottlieb and how Gottlieb got weird. That's right. Gottlieb was the king of pinball for decades. They had the designers, they had the artists, they had the build quality, most importantly, they had the sales. But they did not have the foresight to see what an impact solid state technology would have on the industry. And their late adoption of silicon put them in an odd position in the 1980s. Facing declining sales, pressure from arcade games, and the fact that their pinball competitors were actually making good games now, Gottlieb was in a tough spot. To add to this, management kept changing. Coca-Cola purchased Columbia Pictures, who owned Gottlieb at the time. CocakesX came in and changed the pinball company's name to Mylstar, and then a year later sold the company to a different group who would go on to change the name to Premier. I think it's appropriate to say the 80s were a bit of a mess for Gottlieb, but historically, when pinball companies got in trouble, it leads to some very interesting games. They start throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Exactly. And no single generation of Gottlieb games exemplifies this splattered wall better than the System 80A. This is the first major revision of Gottlieb's System 80 board set, which had come out a couple years prior in 1980. It's a fun little thing. They actually named it after the year. Makes sense for once. The board set isn't the focus of today's episode, though, just more so what the guys at Gottlieb did with it from 1982 to 1985. This is a period of managerial chaos, innovative thinking, Some great games and some duds. We're going to quickly run through the 20 games they put out in this era, tell you which ones we think stuck and which ones plopped. Oh, stuck or plopped. Yeah, that's the ranking system. I said shit at the wall. We actually like a lot of these games. We could say throwing spaghetti at the wall would maybe be a better way to say this. Or we could say they were swinging for the fences. Some of these are home runs, some of them are strikeouts. But I'm sticking with the stuck or plop rating system. Okay, I like that. Yeah, so every time we'll talk about a game, talk about if it sticks or plops, right? Because they're throwing shit at the wall. That's really what was happening in the ADAs, as you'll see. So, yeah, you want to start us off with the first game? Whoa, whoa, whoa, water boy. What? Are we forgetting something? Oh, my God. Are we forgetting something? We're forgetting the coffee plug. The coffee plug. I forgot. Yeah, dude, that's everyone's favorite part of the show. That's what people come here for. We almost missed it. Like idiots. I imagine when we do the coffee plug, people like talk along with us Reading out the URL, kind of like how people clap along with the Friends theme song. KO-FI.com slash Wedgehead Podcast. If anyone doesn't know, we're always appreciative of any support. You want to throw us a few bucks, you know, or more than a few bucks, you want to throw us $5, 000, that would really help purchase a very cool pinball machine we're trying to get. There's a very cool, very rare prototype game that someone reached out to us and offered to sell us, but we don't have the cash for it, but would love to find the cash for it. It's an interesting proposition because there's an asterisk involved in the owner wants the game to go somewhere where the public can play it, which I love and respect. And I got a location. That means I can't buy it and throw it in the basement. The problem. So if you want to help us realize this vision, you want to throw us a few dollars or 5000 to expedite the process. Yeah, throw go over to coffee.com slash wedget podcast ko-fi.com slash wedget podcast. And you can invite to our discord where we'll probably tell you what the game is, but maybe we'll, you know, lure everyone along for a little bit here because it'll be more entertaining this way. And who knows if it'll actually happen? It's a big goal. I don't know if that'll actually happen. Frankly, talking about it, but maybe we'll get impatient and maybe I'll just kind of pitch in here. Yeah, it's a lot of money, but we would have it on the floor at Wet Shed and it is an extremely rare game. The coolest. The fucking coolest. There's only- We listened to recent episodes of our show. You might be able to guess what one of these games is. Yeah. So anyway, but that's today's episode. We're going to start off with the first game of the system ADA, which is... Devil's Dare. This is the most successful system ADA. It's all downhill from here. Pretty funny. It sold 3, 800 units, decently strong sales for this period where video games were eaten, pinballs, lunch, and Gottlieb did not know what the hell they were doing. This is a... how do you say this guy's name, man? Dude, Tom Safransky? Yeah, yeah, you just kind of ignore the Z, is what I would do. Safransky. Yeah, Tom Safransky design, Doug Watson art. It feels to me like a normal System 80 Gottlieb. Like, there's nothing that wacky. It's cool, it's loaded with shit, it looks really cool. It's not really a good example of this era to me, because it's just kind of like a normal... I mean, it is cool, there's some novel stuff going on in it. There's... It's devil themed, which is kind of notable. That's not exactly like family friendly. Dude, it's cool as fuck. Okay, so the back glass is cool as hell. Doug Watson did the original back glass, but they didn't use it because Gottlieb, his original, which you can find a photo of on IPDB, is basically the big devil head that's on this one, but it also on the player displays, there's kind of like little green naked women like succubus creatures hanging on the displays. and Gottlieb was like, whoa, whoa. They're like, that's a little much. That's a little too much. We're gonna have a screaming devil face. We can't have naked babes too. And it sold pretty well, man. Like despite it being devil themed. What's funny too is like, you know, back during this era, companies were really, I mean, the satanic panic was happening. This is like, people were like afraid to listen to bands like Iron Maiden and shit. Like, it is interesting. Cause there's other arcade games from like Devil's Hollow and stuff that got a lot of attention in the press. And that attention, I think helps the game sometimes. Yeah, I think they sold a lot of games because the devil shit is cool. I mean it does it looks really cool. It's it's the most obvious bad thing that a thing can be. You know, you're like what can we be that's like bad? What do kids like they like shit their parents don't like? What's bad? The devil. Yeah, the devil. And you're like it looks rad. It's a good art package. It's a cool layout. It's a game that I've somehow never played. Have you played one? Yeah, yeah. No, I think the game is fun. It is weird. So you're giving it a stick or a plop? Sign up today at code debacle by STEP gameplay blog. This is why these games do not feel necessarily like cohesive from one to the next. I mean, they still end up getting like the same guys over and over, but it was, Gottlieb always did that. You know, like they did that with Gordon Morrison wasn't really a Gottlieb. He wasn't actually a Gottlieb employee? No. He was also... I knew he did art for other people. That explains it. Yeah. Huh. But this is also the first game with a multiball restart feature. Whoa. So you can restart your multiball. Interesting. Restarting multiballs is so much cooler than ball saves on multiballs. Fuck yeah, dude! It's way cooler. Putting a ball save on a multiball- the multiball has become in the modern era of just like 30 seconds of free points or whatever, no consequences, no fear, is so much lamer than when you immediately could drain and lose your multiball but then you had like a 10 second hurry up to restart it. Yeah. I love that. That's the best shit. Cause it adds like tense- it adds like tension to the like single ball element, it's great, it just works perfect. It's the best. And this is the first game to do it, so. So that's pretty cool. That's a cool feature. It is funny because it's like they sold really well, but it's like, hey, dude, you'd never see these. Yeah, that's what I was like. I'm just really surprised. I've not seen one. And I saw that they sold so much better because there are a lot of games in this era I have seen. OK, right after that, a game I have seen. What's your sticker plot? I can't judge it. Oh, because you haven't played it. I haven't played it. It looks like a stick to me. It looks cool. It sold well. So I'm thinking that's a stick. Right after that, they go hard in a not standard pinball direction and they make Caveman. This is the first hybrid pinball video game. This is before, uh, like the Baby Pac-Man or Mr. and Mrs. Pac-Man. No, it's Baby Pac-Man's the video one. Baby Pac. Yep, this is before Baby Pac and Granny and the Gators. Uh, it's a John Burris design. It's got a joystick on the lock down bar. It looks very funny. It looks like it was expensive to make because it's a lot of bespoke stuff. And it goes on to sell 1800 units, so less than half of Devil's Dare. Yeah, and it's, you know, like Waterboy said, first machine to incorporate a video game into it. It's got a very funny CRT monitor in the back of the playfield. Yeah, it's not like... In the playfield. Yeah, in the playfield, which majorly impacts the playfield design. The playfield itself is kind of like a pretty simplistic, symmetrical design. I've played it. I know I've played it and I have no recollection. And because of that, I'm giving it a plop. It's a plop. But if you want to hear more about Caveman, we did cover this way back in episode five video modes. Just for the just for the record, the sticker plop system is multifaceted because it's like if something was successful or impactful, it's a stick. It's not necessarily like, do we like the game or not? But also that is a piece of it. I don't really remember liking this thing, but also it did not do well and it didn't have a lasting impact. So it's a plot. It's not saying it's not cool. It's just this is an objective thing. Again, they're throwing shit at the wall. So yeah, you got to see some of us. Not all of us going to stick. Yeah. So after that, they go on to make a little game, a licensed theme called Rocky. This is Mr. Trudeau's first design credit, I believe. If I'm wrong, I'm sure somebody will correct me. 1982, 1500 units sold. This is one of Trudeau's first game designs? Yeah, he had worked for Game Plan. This is definitely his first Gottlieb design credit. He had worked for Game Plan, but I think those games came out after this because of like the release order stuff. Either way, it's a very early Trudeau game. And it is, it's bizarre. It's got double flippers down at the bottom, like two standard flipper arrangements at the bottom. Yeah, facing each other. Yeah, there's like a left and a right and then like a left and a right over on the other side of the cabinet. So it's fun for split flip. I would say I've actually played one of these. It's fun for split flip, but it's not very great other than that. It's kind of weird because it's like the playfield had to be designed around that. So obviously where there's like this shot only works from this flipper. And then when you're on another flipper, you're like, well, now what I shoot for? And it's like every flipper has like one shot, which doesn't feel good. And it's just I did not love it. But it is very expensive, like weirdly expensive considering 1500 units. The game is a very sought after game, and it seems like a bunch went to Europe, which is odd considering the licensed theme. Yeah, it was meant to be, you know, and David Moore did the art. It was meant to be a literal movie tie in as a fake version of this game is seen in Rocky three when Paulie, who's Rocky's trainer, sees it and smashes it in an arcade. That game actually wasn't this game. That was a force two machine, which is a different earlier Gottlieb game with a unique head and cabinet. So it was actually even kind of a Frankenstein of a force two game. Funny. This is the only movie that had a rocky backglass in it, and it was gimmicked for that because this game itself didn't exist when they were filming that movie. That makes sense. But the movie Backglass, the one that he smashes, is really cool looking. It's fucking sick, dude. It's really cool. People sell those as alts, which is a funny thing to have reproduced an alt backglass for a game this rare, but it looks cooler. Dude, it's so fucking cool. It looks similar, but it just says rocky and huge, like sans serif in different colors like All behind. It's just sick as fuck. Yeah, it's really weird they didn't stick with that one for the production game. But the game's not, in my opinion, super fun anyway. I think it's a fun game. It's like a fun novelty. It's kind of like an Orbiter One situation. It's a fun novelty, but it's not like a, I want to go pay whatever these are like 10 grand or something. Yeah, they sell between 10 and 12 grand, it looks like. Crazy, dude. And supposedly Ed Krinsky had started a version of the game, but Trudeau took over and changed it. Leslie Van De Nen BOB Darkness As a Also, really, those games, these games are both really fun for split flip. I will say having like two sets of flippers is just more fun when you're playing split flip. It's like that's the way to play these games. Yeah, well, that's the other thing too, is they work with, you know, the left flipper hits the left flipper on both sides. This one, the left flipper hits both of your left flippers on Super Score. I'm pretty sure it chimp flips on each side. Yeah, so when you hit the left button, it hits your left, left and right, and your right hits your left or right, left and right. So it's like you're always chimp flipping. This one does not chimp flip. Yeah. So it's like they're different, which is also interesting. The chimp flipping super score. That's how I remember it anyway. But some people rewire those. And the super scores are really funny. They're very fun. Because it's like you have each have your own little playfield kind of thing. So it's really, really funny to play split flip. If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about split flips, when you have two people, each one stands on one side of the cabinet. Plays one button. Yeah. It's a fun thing to do. If you're listening to this, I just, one of those things not everyone probably is aware of is terminology. Um, anyway, you can, have you played Iraqi? I played one at the Dutch Pinball Museum. Yeah, yeah, I've played Iraqi a few times. It is a very rare game. It is one of those games that you're either going to see at a show or only at a, at a weird place like a museum. Museum. Yeah. And even rare to see in a museum. Yeah, they're really, I didn't check the map, but it's just like, they're not very common. Yeah. Stick or a plop? You know, I give it a plop. I don't think it's that fun, but I like the Rocky movies and I like the Rocky back glass and I... I think it looks cool. It's fun for a little novelty. Didn't have a lasting impact. I don't think it's very good. The fact that it sells for 10 to 12 grand is psycho, dude. That's what makes me... If this was like not Rocky themed, if it was knockoff Rocky, like the Gottliebs I love, you know, when they're clear knockoffs and it was like $1, 000, I'd be like, oh, this thing's cool as hell. I'd be giving it a stick. With all that context, I'm like, I'm giving it a plop. I don't, I don't get it. I don't get why people are paying this much for it. It's just the theme, I guess. It does look cool. Yeah. I mean, it looks like a game. Yeah, it's it is the only Rocky game. After that, though, we get to something I would say is maybe more interesting and also apparently heavily distributed in Europe. And that is Spirit. There's 1200 of these produced. It's also from Trudeau. With 1200, you'd never know it Going off of how rare these seem to be, they're like unobtainium. I heard that most or maybe all of these went to Europe. On the ones in the US seem to be like the ones I've seen documented on Pinside and the one that we know locally is a reimport. Yeah. So I'm really like, did all of these go to Europe? Like what happened to the spirits? Because they are like Alex is saying, it's very rare, but also not the lowest production run. But it's been a beloved collector game since I've been in the hobby, you know, for like 20 years because it's absolutely loaded with mechs and features. I said this is like a, if you've never seen, if you've never seen or played Spirit, it's kind of like a haunted house or black hole but cranked to 11. Yeah. It's absolutely packed with shit. It's got very cool space, celestial Spirit artwork and really cool use of colors. I love how like different parts of the playfield blue and green and orange. And that's Terry Dorzapf is the artist on this game. Yeah, it's got a playfield. It's got a playfield display. It's got two inch flippers in the outlanes to save the ball. Yeah, that you can flip back up into the inlanes, like through gates. Yep. It's got just tons of cool shots on it. Like the quick turnarounds and stuff that Trudeau would be kind of better known for later. It starts feeling like, oh, this is a Trudeau game. And like you said, this is a grail game for a lot of older guys that love solid states. It's kind of funny to see, because it's like there's a, there's a lot of games in this category to me. But when you talk to like older guys that like Gottlieb stuff, like Spirits, like, oh man, it is the game. Yeah. It's the type of thing that you get the, you get the idea that they would like hear of about this, or they'd maybe seen one in a show in 95 or something. And they're like still thinking about that spirit. Yeah. Oh man, it's like 20 years past and I'm like, God, Spirit, that was a fucking cool game. And it is a cool game. It's the one that got away for a lot of people. It is It is It the Cadillac of the ADAs Yeah it is loaded dope art package I don want to say it necessarily downhill from here but it nothing else will touch us in terms of like bill of material Definitely not. There's a lot of other interesting games, but this game is... There can't be one that's heavier than this. That made it to production. I'll put that caveat on there. Yeah, it is fucking heavy. But we're very lucky because we got a friend of ours locally in town and we're doing a little game swap. So part of the reason Alex and I are doing this episode is we got a buddy in town who has a spirit, has a very nice spirit, and they're gonna let us borrow that game and put it on the floor at Wedgehead for y'all to come play. That's why we're doing that thing's coming in? Yeah. That's cool. When's that happening? It's happening fucking soon, dude. No wonder. That's why we're doing this episode, bro. Like we're doing this whole episode. You're just like, oh, we're just doing an ADA episode for fun. Dude, this is... People have been clamoring for an ADA episode. I like this era of goofy shit. That's funny. Okay, cool. No, it's gonna be a good episode, but we're gonna have this game, which most hardcore pinheads will say is the best of all of these games. And it's just like the best. A lot of guys think this is like the best of like the solid state Gottliebs. Yeah, and one of the best of the whole eras. The hype around this game is kind of nuts to me. It is crazy. It is a really cool, unique game though. And it looks cool as hell. That's one thing I would say. and it is fun man it is John Trudeau really starts cooking here you know he had a couple games in and like this is this is it yeah this is what I like I'm like I really started it's like you start seeing the hallmarks of his this is a stick for sure this is a stick yeah absolutely stick like I mean sales wise it's a plop and they still go for like seven to eight grand like so yeah you know I'm sure if you have like a mint cherry one or fully restored you probably would Rockies less rare than this. It's not a good game, but it sells for so much money. Yeah, that's true. It's just interesting to me. But yeah, I'm giving I'm giving Spirit a stick and you can stick it down at Wedgehead. Yeah. By the time this episode comes out, we're going to have it on the floor. So that's pretty sick. I'm excited for that. OK, after that, we go to Striker. It's another weird double flipper game. So I said that Rocky didn't have any influence, but they recycled those flipper arrangements again. For striker, it's a soccer theme in the 80s. I'm guessing they're still swinging for the Europe market here I'm assuming it seems like that's because that's just going off of what I know about where these games actually seem to exist And what I've been told it really seems like that's what their attempt was here. They're like, oh shit We're not doing good in the States. Can we like get Europe and they're making soccer games man in the 80s? Well, they called it striker not soccer. Yeah, that's kind of weird Um, yeah, sold 910 units, so even more rare than Spirit or Rocky. It's another game you never see. Trudeau game, David Moore on art, sells for about five grand, so does... It is a little expensive, but not crazy expensive. These rare games, the prices are weird because it's like, how many sales have there been? But someone paid that, so it's obviously someone wanted this for their collection. I, looking at it, I'm not like, oh, I need to play this. I've played it before. Oh, really? Cengiz. Better than rocky? Yeah. Oh! Wow! I think it's way better than rocky. I think it's, like, one of those things where it's got the rocky flippers or the super score flippers, and it's got a mostly symmetrical playfield, but because you know the rules of soccer sort of, it's kind of like playing World Cup soccer or whatever, stryker extreme. You're like shooting a goal. I've only played it one time at a show, but I thought it was a good time. You giving it a stick? I'm sticking it. I kinda like it. I don't know enough about this one, I'm refraining from judging it. Yeah. That's my official opinion on this one. So that's a stick and a half. That's a stick and a half. It's not that. From here we go to Punk, another Tom Zabransky design, sells 900 units with... So I'm kind of connecting dots on this little conspiracy tinfoil hat shit. But with how widely popular or how much more widely popular punk music was in the UK versus America in the early 80s, I feel like this was another like European centric theme. It feels like the Gottlieb guys were not selling well to the US and they're like, we got to try this US, the UK market. I can see that. I mean, you don't see them around, but it's another game where it's like, it's another collector darling. Oh yeah, people, this is another like sought after, like lots of wanted ads for punks, and the art package looks cool. Yeah, that's another David Moore and Terry Zordzaff combo art package. Okay, and the layout does not look particularly cool. It's pretty symmetrical. I've played it a couple times, leaves zero impression. It's okay. That's how it looks. I don't want to judge it, you know, too harshly without being able to put time on it, e I'm giving it a plop. I'm giving it like a half plop just off, you know, just off of how I think it'll play. From after that, we got two really interesting canceled games. These are games that didn't go into production. They maybe made like 10 copies or so of each. So they are out there, you know, some have played them. Alan's one of one of them or anyway. The first of them is Going Nuts. It's a cool theme. It's a squirrel themed game where you're squirreling nuts away. It's just a batshit crazy layout with seven pop bumpers arranged in a way that might surprise you. None of them are in a cluster. Yeah, they're not a cluster. Yeah, they're like all over the place. It's a lively looking playfield. There's a copy at the Hall of Fame in Vegas. It's never been turned on while I was there, but I know you've played it. What'd you think? Yeah, so I believe the only one is at the Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas. It's publicly playable one. I played it there back when it was in, I think it was two locations ago. Okay. And the games were more... In better shape. Yeah. And Tim was a lot younger and I mean, I used to go there all the time. I love this game, dude. It's a wild layout. It's super fucking fun. I wish it kind of existed. I wish they would have made like 800 of these or whatever. Yeah, it's one of the canceled games that you think actually had potential. I think this game is fun as hell. It's very... So it is kind of a gimmick. Like it's a time-based game. Okay. And it's like constant multiball. Oh, and it's good? I think yeah because it's like all it's sort of like the game starts out on multiball but you have you know like it'll end. Yeah. You know you're trying your squirrel trying to get all your nuts. Does it have an auto launcher? Yeah. Okay, that's I mean that's some crazy shit. They did have like launch stuff like that. I mean they like they were launching between the flippers. Yeah. On far earlier on EM. I think that's what it is. So that's what I'm kind of curious. It is a really kind of like bizarre, it's hard to really judge the playfield because the plastics are, the plastic artwork is, like matches the playfield artwork, which makes it kind of hard to tell what's looking at, what you're looking at in photos sometimes. The art package, this is another one where it's like, it's hard to tell who did this. There's a lot of this game where it was listed as Larry Day on IPDB, but then on IPDB they said, we asked Larry, he thought it was Margaret Hudson. And then Margaret Hudson's like, that wasn't me either. So. And then like the design itself, because that's the weird part. Okay. So then this, it gets even weirder because the design credit on Pinside is listed as Adolph Seitz Jr. And then on IPDB, it's listed as Shing Lam. Between the two Seitz, they're not listed alongside each other. They're listed one or the other with two wildly different names. Two very unique names. Shing Lam and Adolph? Yeah, Shinglam or Adolph Seitz. Now the thing is, is this person, whoever they are, was the designer for Black Hole, which was a game of the System 80 era pre- right before this was a big hit for Gottlieb, was a crazy- it was also brought in from outside and finished up at Gottlieb. Interesting. Right, like it's one of those games that got kind of brought to them and they had an open ear, they made the game, it's a big success. So I think that- And Black Holes Designer isn't like well documented. That's like a widely beloved game. Black Holes Designer, depending on what website you're looking at, is either Adolph Seitz Jr. or Shing Lam. That's really interesting. You wonder if it's like a pseudonym, like they tried to adopt a more anglicized, a whiter name. They were an Asian designer working in the industry at this time, kind of like what George Christian did. Yeah. Talk about in the George Christian episode in depth, if you're curious about that. That's really bizarre, and I would love to know the straight answer there. Someone's gotta know, but I guess if they were out, if these were outsourced designs, they're literally, nobody might know. And I'm sure it was just like John Burris or somebody else, like, kinda actually like, finished it up in-house. Yeah, maybe, if they just, if they just bought a blueprint for a design and they're like, you drill the holes here, man, like, it might have been done. Like, there is a chance that this was just straight up designed by a dude that is completely, like, unknown. So whatever, whoever designed this game was the designer of Black Hole, did this prototype for going nuts. The layout's wild, it's fun. Like I said, they don't really exist, but Pinsight says the value of them are about 50 grand. You think it's worth 50 grand? Would you pay 50 for it? No, no, no, God no. There's no pinball machine worth 50 grand. That's what I mean is like, I wish they would have made like 800 of these, because it's like, dude, this is a stick for me for sure. I think this game is super fun. Oh, it's a stick for me just for the theme, dude. Yeah, going nuts. It's going nuts. The only other squirrel themed game we have is Rocky and Bullwinkle, also very good. Yeah. That's only half squirrel. This is full squirrel. Dude, it's a stick and a half. Stick and a half. The other, the other canceled prototype that happens to be right, was built right at the same time period is a game called Kroll. It's a very much another haunted house, black hole spirit type of loaded game with a big I think an upper playfield on it, but now with a movie license featuring Liam Neeson, I believe. I love throwing actor names out there because I'll probably somehow be wrong or someone will be like, well, you didn't mention the actual star of the movie, but I didn't realize Liam Neeson was making movies like this back in the 80s, man. That's some crazy shit. This is another Trudeau design. Keith Parkinson on art. Upper and lower playfields were deemed too expensive to make. The public was surprised when visa 5 Guangdong X irenogbers And that's, like, the pictures you see of it, but when you see it in person, it's cool as hell. Interesting. Yeah, because there are... Are there any like, actual factory games out there? Or are they all reproduct... Like, people have, like, pieced these together with, like, unpopulated playfields and shit? I... That I don't know how many are, like, factory prototypes that exist. It doesn't particularly matter. There's just some of these that make it to shows, but there's always a big line. If there's a crawl at a show, there might only be one crawl that goes to shows. Yeah. Like, there will be a big line to play it because it's a really cool, exceptionally rare game. Yeah. This is exceptionally rare. I mean, like, one. It's like seeing a fucking Brooks and Dunn, you know? It's like, you know, the kind of shit you tell your grandkids about. Yeah. Absolutely. So, we can't really give this a... I'd say you can't really give a game like that a... well, you've played it. Have you seen it? I played it. I played it once. How's it compare to, like, a Black Hole? It's not as good. That's kind of what I'd heard online. People are like, it's really cool. Win deficieuxofgolmedil adversitygoal. Toolbox Blue. Any of those big- And of the two of these, of the two of these prototypes, like I said, I liked going nuts. I thought going nuts was fun. I like the theme. I don't- I've never heard of nerd shit like Krull. I like going nuts. That's a simple game, man. Yeah, dude, I liked it. I think going nuts is just a hilarious theme and art package, and I love the whole thing. I don't know about- the timed multiball shit's wild. I'm surprised you liked it. Yeah, cuz it's timed, dude. You can't be stuck there in a fucking 50-minute game. That is, I mean, that is kind of the ideal. What is Jaws other than a 45 minute slog through stops and starts and movie clips and constant multiball anyway? But it just doesn't fucking end. You know what I mean? Like, so going nuts is like, let's get in, let's get out. Well, to be fair, I wouldn't mind Jaws if it was about squirrels. Sharks. Okay, so anyway, we're given that, I don't know, I don't know if Kroll gets a stick or a plop. I feel it's hard to rate. I've played it once, but I'll give it a stick. I'd like to play it again. Yeah, I feel like that's fair. It looks like a cool game. But that shit doesn't matter because we're finally to the big boys, the games that do matter. That's right, it's Qbert's Quest. Everyone knows Qbert. He was the lovable title character from what is Gottlieb's, I think, only successful arcade game. It's a cute arcade game. It's got great character design and art and a cool isometric, it's just an interesting isometric puzzle platformer. It's hard to describe if you've not seen it. If you've seen it, you go, yeah, that's Qbert. And it's fucking, the arcade game I'm talking about is cool in itself. And the pinball machine is cool as hell, dude. The pinball machine, they made a game based off of him. They really went all in on this, trying to theme it to match their arcade game. It's got a really unique playfield featuring this bizarre four flipper arrangement with like two flippers down below so when you drain you get a chance to hit the ball with those lower flippers i mean there are ways to drain around them but if like two of the drains feed into those lower flippers and then you get a flip and hit this really big smooth cool lower orbit shot that's like crisscrosses across the playfield up top into a big like u-turn it's so sick when you hit that shit you're like i just want to drain more so i can keep hitting that shot it's hard as hell to do the first We do so often. I don't really care about their arcade game much. I mean, it's cool. I don't really play that era of arcade games ever at all, but I love this pinball machine. Yeah, the arcade game was much more successful. This one only sells nine, you know, just under 900 units. Another Trudeau game, David Moore and Terry Dorzapf on art. It's another nine to ten grand game. Yeah, she's spendy. Spendy. It's because it's themed after a video game, and video game themed games are all excellent, no exceptions. I think, uh, you know, it's the most batshit game on this batshit crazy game list. It is the most, like, with just being like a pinball machine, like no TV in it or anything, I'm like, this shit's out there. All of these games are fucking weird. That's why we're covering it in this era. Yeah. But this is the weirdest fucking one. This is definitely the weirdest playfield. And it's cause it's got the, you know, like, it's insane that this is the first game got Many thanks to It's just people get confused by timed games, which I can understand is a confusing concept. In this, they were like, okay, we got to capitalize on the success of this character we created. The theme already kind of has fan base recognition, but it's free because it's in house and then it doesn't work anyway. Yeah, it's the four flipper X shape is really like with the two above, like you would think of flippers and then the two X's that flip the opposite way. Until next timeienday96 streamün So, to be very supportive of the ADA years, Gottlieb seems to be scratching their heads. They've tried everything and they can't manage to regain any of the ground they had just five short years prior. So, you know what they do, Alan, is they go, hey, let's just slap a new art package and these sick-ass ADA board sets we got into the games we already know people liked in the past. This leads to a run of awesome games because they're just Gottlieb's most successful All of these games have some minor tweaks but for the most part they seem pretty faithful to their EM counterparts Yeah I don know I sure people will be like oh no They a little different They change this and that And it like yeah there some tweaks but for the most part they play kind of like if you know how the EM works you going to know how the solid state version works We're kind of skipping around chronological order because I just want to get, get through this clump here. The remasters, as I'm calling them, you know, I think I'm the first person to coin that term. Yeah, they are the remaster. They're the Ed Krinsky remasters. That's a good way to think of it. These are all Ed Krinsky games. You kind of spoiled a little bit of that. It's okay. But the remasters include Super Orbit, which is an updated version of Ed Krinsky's Orbit, which was originally released in 1971. It's got an awesome, awesome art package. Orbit was already a cool-looking game, and Super Orbit looks rad. Yeah, that is a cool fucking game. David Moore did the art package. That's cool. That's good to know, considering I'm talking about it. I probably should have known that. But I also wanted to take this moment before we get into more Ed Kerinsky stuff to make a correction from a prior episode where we talked about Ed Kerinsky and his career and I erroneously said he started designing at Gottlieb in the early 70s. That's wrong. He started designing for Keeney, a competitor that I forgot about, in 1959 and then he moved to Gottlieb in the mid 60s. His first design credit there was in 65. I got misled by both, I don't need to blame websites, but Pinside and the Kinetis' website can't load, they're not set up to load as many games as Krinsky designed. Yeah. So like the pages get like fucked up and they cut off his early games. They're all in the databases but the pages can't scroll far enough. Which is kind of funny. Krinsky was a fucking G. Dude, he made so many, and that explains a lot. That explains why he made so many awesome games, because no one else in this era, everyone else designed shit for like 10 years and then kind of moved on. And Ed stuck with it. And you're like, that's why he got so good. 20 years designing games. Yeah. Makes sense. So anyway, this is what do you think? Stick or plop? Oh, stick for sure. Yeah. Orbit's a cool game. Super Orbit's an even cooler game. I think this is really rad. This is a game I would love to pick up a copy of Super Orbit somehow. Absolutely. After that, we got Royal Flush Deluxe. This is an updated version of Ed Kerinski's Royal We're going to be talking about the Royal Flush from 1976. Yep. What do you think about this one? I haven't played this one. I haven't played Royal Flush Deluxe, but it's based on Royal Flush from 76. So I played Royal Flush a lot. It's a classic ed game. Super fun. And Rhodesy just texted us a couple of days ago and was like, hey, I got a Royal Flush Deluxe for this Gottlieb episode you guys are working on. So I guess that'll be on the floor at Wedget soon, too. Turns out we're going to a whole bunch of ADAs. Yeah, dude, we're gonna load you up. I think it's a really, I think between, it's a good, it's funny to be getting Spirit and this because they're really two sides of the ADA coin. You've got the fully loaded Cadillac and then you've got the like throwback remaster like, oh shit, what are we doing? Classic E.M. Ed Kerinsky with a new coat of paint. What's funny too is like they're struggling to sell games and then they re-release these remasters. They're selling 2000... Immediately all of these kill compared to the shit they've been doing. It's hilarious how well this works for a moment. Yes. But yeah, Royal Flush Deluxe, I've not played the Royal Flush game. Really fun EM, so I'm happy. I'm excited to play one without score reels to worry about sticking. Yeah, that's true. I love EMs. I love solid states that just work easy all the time. I really like EMs because of how they play. The technology is very cool, interesting to me, But it's like on location solid state's just so much less of a headache at this point. And so I love these, like, I love it when these companies remastered the EMs. Like, well, it's mostly because like when you're playing somebody in a tournament on an EM, they'll always find... I didn't get credit for that. Shut the fuck up. Play better. You'll always find something to gripe about in a competitive setting on an EM and it's like solid state, all of that's out the window. So it's like, perfect. I mean, this sour grapes bullshit anyway, but that's besides the point. So after after Royal Flush Deluxe, we get Amazon Hunt. This was one I did not recognize as a remaster because it's quite a bit different in appearance and name than its original version, which was Ed Kerinski's Fast Draw from 1975. Cowboys are out. Cowboys are lame as hell in the 80s. Cool jungle warrior guys are in. So this game, it's just it's an interesting one. Do you like do you like Quick Draw? You know, fast draw. It's not one of my favorites, but... It's not an ed game that I'm like, oh, I love that. I'm surprised. It must have sold pretty well for them to justify bringing it back. And then this thing must have sold pretty well because they moved it to a newer board set after this. It's on an 80A. They move it to an 80B and rerun it again like five years later as Amazon Hunt 2. They just added two. Same art package and everything, but they added two to the back glass. Don't know why they bothered. And then, fucking insanity, four years after that, they run it again as Amazon Hunt 3. It's crazy, dude. Why would they do that? I don't know, it's crazy. It sold like 200 units the last time they ran it, but it's just like, they literally must have had Playfield sitting around there like, build them! Yeah, I mean, the line's gotta keep moving. I guess 91 was when they were fucking around with the street level system 3s. And so they were probably like, let's just try this one more time. What if people want to buy the ENs? This war uh amazon hunt sold like this is a strong seller i think it's sold mid 2000s something like that yeah art by larry day dude dude looks cool i mean i like how i like how fast draw looks but amazon hunt looks cool too after that jack's to open it's an updated version of ed uh jack's open from 77 jack's open absolutely phenomenal phenomenal wedge head My favorite straight flat bank of drop targets in a game. Oh, interesting. I know it's a weird distinction, but it's like, it just, cause I just always note it because I'm like, a bank of drops just directly facing flippers seems so lame and uninspired, but it's got a really fun role set that makes you pick them off. It's dangerous too. I really like Jumping Jack with the flat bank. That game's a lot of fun. Jumping Jack's really good too. I really like Jumping Jack. I loved, I love Jack's Open though. I love Jax 2 Open. I played this in Tokyo, which is a very funny, funny place to play games for the first time. Yeah, it's a fucking, it's a cool game. The unfortunate part is I don't, it's got a fine art package, but Jax Open has a phenomenal... Jax Open has a phenomenal Gordon Morrison art package. And Jax 2 Open, do you know who did it? Yeah, it's David Moore. It's okay. It's fine. It's just straight up card game. It's no longer like, it's no longer got like the psych art kind of like cool perspective and characters and stuff. It's a lot more straightforward. Gordon Morrison is the GOAT for a reason. So, you know, David Morris is fine. I mean, this is a tournament darling. It's a sick game. And unlike some of these other sick games or just weird games, they're cheap when they pop up. Yeah. So it's like this is like a totally gettable game. Yeah. And unlike an EM, it's just like it's pretty straightforward. They're pretty rock solid. Yeah. 88 board sets. 80 boards, I guess I shouldn't say they're that great. They have a lot of problems. But they're documented. Yeah, you can figure it out. Yeah. And after that, the last of the remasters is El Dorado City of Gold. It's an updated version of Ed's El Dorado from 75. Yep. And this one doesn't sell that well, which is funny because they re-ran this playfield like a hundred times, but for some reason the market was sick of it at this point. Well, yeah, I think it's, you know, it gets to the point where it's like 1984 now. So I guess. Yeah. You're like, I don't know. What's the competition doing? Nothing that good in 84. Nothing that good. This is the dull drums. I was gonna say it's the slump. Yeah. 83, 84 is slump. It's also one that the art package is pretty cool. It looks kind of like an Indiana Jones style, like jungle adventure. I think it's cool. I would love to have one. But the art package on El Dorado is cooler. Way cooler. That's the problem with like some of these is that it's like, oh, the originals look so good. Well, yeah, and you can get it as a wedge head and it's just like the wedge head cabinets Oh, they look cool. That niche is fucking gorgeous. But City of Gold is one that I'd love to have just for reliability reasons. Sure. Because it's a fun layout to shoot. And, yeah, but it doesn't sell that well, so this is the last of the remasters for the time being. The last of this batch. Yeah. Other than that one, though, all of these games sold at like 2K, which is crazy. Because they couldn't fucking do anything. They were going all out, trying all this crazy shit, chasing their tails, and they were selling a thousand of everything. All sticks to me. Oh yeah, we quit going sticks and plops. All of those are sticks. They're all really good games. I guess the one Amazon hunt would be the one I haven't played an Amazon hunt. I don't love fast draw, but I really like the art package on Amazon hunt. So I'm giving them all stick. All stick, dude. And they're all a success for the most part. Yeah. So during that period, cause like I said, we weren't going chronological. The other design talent did keep putting out new games. Some of those include Rack Em Up, it's a John Buras design. It sells $1, 700, which is pretty good. I've heard this game's actually, like, really good. Yeah, well, I mean, I haven't played it, but it does look fun and all pool games are good. It's kind of, pool games do seem to kind of be good. They're all kind of good, so... There's something about pool that just, it just inspires designers. It's because they're like, oh shit, this is going to get compared to pool, it has to actually be fun. I don't know. There's like some reason it's like pool just the rule sets always kind of makes sense. You're like, yeah, you're collecting pool balls, man. You know how pool works. And it just it's an interesting layout. It looks cool. I'd love to play one, but it is, you know, pretty rare. 1700 and I've just not seen not had a chance. I'm giving it a stick, though. Yeah, dude, I'll give it a stick. A game that's not as common is the next title, Ready Aim Fire, which was another one from our buddy Adolph Seitz, credited to him. Yeah, Adolph Seitz or Xing Lan. Whoever it may be. It's a very weird looking game, interesting art package, weird combo of colors on it, sells 390. I know nothing about this. The playfield does not look super fun to me, but you never know. Sometimes you can't judge a book by its cover. This is another exceptionally rare game that nobody cares about. Yeah. I mean, they sell for like two grand. I played it once, it left zero impression. That's how it looked to me when I was looking at the layout. I'm like, this is not the type of game that I, it's like, I don't know. It's just, it's weird. Cause you're like, they're trying stuff and they're trying with like the art package is weird on this one. Weird, but it's not good. It's not good. It's just like weird colors. It looks like something, it looks like a background set piece from like a kiddie place. Prestige and take the Thanks and You get hurt. KOCS We get to Alien Star. Alien Star is one of the coolest Gottliebs of all time. The uncultured might call it One Note. These are the same type of simpletons who can only enjoy ice cream when it's had 12 types of cookies mixed in by a high schooler singing them a nursery rhyme. It's just an incredible, striking art package by Larry Day. Absolute top notch use of colors and restraint in colors. The original character design that makes you go, this should be a movie. The guys look cool as hell on it, man. They got little horns on their helmets. It just looks rad. I mean, yeah, it's kind of like a fake Tron aesthetic. Yeah, I mean, it does it better than Tron did. Tron's kind of like baby, baby shit running around in their little spandex. And these guys look cool as hell. They're like space Vikings. But yeah, it's orange and blue. So it's very Tron inspired. And like the art style is kind of like leaning into that. But it's way, way, way cooler. Nathan the Hillar You start multiball to lock it in and then you light the spinner from the in lane and rip it. That's it. That's the entire game. I just told you how to play and win AlienStar. It's the best shit ever. They only sold a thousand of these, which makes it a lot rarer than many of the rare, big money games on this list, which is funny. Like this is a rarer game than Spirit, a rarer game than Rocky. It's a shame because it rules and it's the type of game that we really need more of in this world. Yeah, again, another very rare game, Larry Day on art. You're right, like it's weird because it's a classic tournament darling. Yeah, people like love this shit. It's super rare, it looks cool as hell, and somehow... And it only sells for like 3k. Yeah, it's like a normal price game. Yeah, 25, 3k. Yeah, I mean that's probably, it'd be hard to find one for that because they just don't fucking pop up. They don't pop up, yeah. I have a feeling they'll be asking more the next time you start seeing them. But it's like, yeah, it's a shats fest. Good spinner, multiball. We also have one. We're putting a new playfield in ours and you'll be able to play it at Wedgehead soon. Man, I'd love to. It is coming soon. Hopefully, hopefully. It's coming soon. That's why I really wanted to gas it up in this and make sure it gets in there. It is coming. We're bringing you Gottliebs. Good. That's what the people want. Gottliebs, specifically ADAs. Yeah. This is 100% a stick. Absolutely stick. For sure. Of the ADAs, this is like to me the standout and I just love this game. Every time I get to play an Alien Star, I go, this is like da best. So good and BorgDawg likes it. So BorgDawg likes it. That's true. If anything BorgDawg signs off on BorgDawg, incredible, incredible streamer on Twitch, just cool dude, probably built my favorite homebrew pinball machine of all time. He likes Alien Star quite a bit. He actually came down to Portland and took measurements of our Alien Star. So he could build his cabinet from scratch. Yeah. That's kind of funny, huh? Yeah. It's a good Borg Dog wedgehead overlap. Dude, Borg Dog's the man. Yeah, man. Anyway, Alien Star. If he likes this game, it's fucking good. That's a guarantee. After that, we get The Games. This is an underrated title from Adolph or whatever his real name is. Yeah. And Trudeau gets a credit on it. It's a really cool layout with Pops low on the playfield, excellent captive balls. There's two that are supposed to be in there if you didn't know that. I heard that, I don't know what podcast, but I think Elwin was on a podcast or something recently and said something good about this game, so it's kind of got some attention right now. &5.Z We're leaving some attention right now because I'm like, I think this is very an underrated game. And it was always just weird when that one was sitting around. I was like, man, if I had space, I'd go pick that up for a thousand bucks. It's got some score balancing issues. But if you just want to have some fucking fun, dude, you want to crack the longest captive ball in all of pinball. That thing goes for like two thirds of the playfield, man. I mean, it's like the mystic one, dude. So good. I think this is longer than mystic. And it's got like three switches up there and it's got two in it. So it's like, it has to transfer, you know, you lose some energy. You really gotta get a good crack. It's a good captive ball. Yeah, and it sells 1, 800, which is kind of hilarious considering Alien Star sold 1, 000. Well, you know. And I'm giving it, I'm giving it a stick. Stick for sure. Okay, after that they do Touchdown. They sell 700 of these. It's a football themed game in a bit of an underwhelming one to follow up those two, I would say. I kind of like the back glass by Larry Day. I think it's kind of, it's got this like, it's got this like football player and it's in a dynamic. The last system 80, some might say we're saving the best for last. It's Ice Fever. It sells 1, 600 units. It's got awesome... this is a hockey themed game. Awesome, awesome art package by Larry Day. Unlike anything else he's ever done or ever will do at this point, it's a grail game for hockey fans, I would say. Definitely more interesting than the other better known hockey game, Bobby Orr. Dude, that game's terrible. Bobby Orr sucks. Bobby Orr is... I don't think it's like horrible, but it's a really weak bally. Dude, it's so bad. This is a very fun game. Yeah. It's a really cool playfield with some interesting ball paths and a captive ball, like it's your goal shot that's behind the drops. And it's just fun to shoot. It's just without, I've played this game only a few times, don't really know the rules, the objectives, but it's just really fun to shoot and try to like do the basic stuff. I always enjoy playing it Another John Trudeau game I want one of these so bad I very hockey fan won yes and I a hockey fan are to show sick and it well it like hawt's a white again it's like one of those games that ligth which stand out in any line up that's what it's totally striking it doesn't look like anything else it's a really cool kinda like Mighty Ducks style like cartoonishly Dude, that's a huge blocky looking hockey player. Really really cool. Good use of colors. I love it. It looks like an 80's cartoon. Sick game, dude. Such a sick game. Absolute stick. And it's the one that was like, I had seen it prior to playing it, and I was like this looks cool, I've never heard anybody talk about it, it must suck, and then I played one and I was like this game is awesome. This game rules, dude. And it's not crazy expensive or anything. No. Yeah, I don't know. It's a cool one. I would absolutely love one. And that's a really good note to end the ADAs on. But before we end this episode, a couple little discussion questions. How would you try to describe this era of games, Alan? Can you identify any overarching themes or design ethos or anything tying these together? Like you said at the beginning of this episode, it's an era marked by desperation. I think you feel it. Video games have crushed the market and pinball almost overnight faces an extinction event. So they get very creative. I have to imagine that the innovation and willingness to try new shit was based out of fear and desperation, but that's what makes these games so interesting. Trudeau is the big name here, and he is for my money the most creative playfield designer ever. He is constantly reinventing the wheel and occasionally to awesome results. You can see his influence today for all you modern pinball players when you look at Keith Elwin's and Jack Danger's games. They pull lots of inspiration from John Trudeau games. Yep. Lots of inspiration. And you will run into one of these games years in the hobby and you're like, holy shit. You will see it in Jack's and Keith's games. Yeah, you'll be like, oh, they took the, like, that shot I know on a game I've played thousands of times is, like, taken from this weird Gottlieb I've never seen before. That nobody plays or talks about. Yeah, I think, I mean, I mean, that is what I basically said at the top of the episode where it's like, this is just them, like, trying shit because they're not playing. There's a lot of these games that have really cool playfields and some of the games have really lame playfields and some of the games have like only a couple have very lame and some are forward. Yeah, it's true. Most of them are good. Most of the games in this era I really enjoy, but they're really different from one another. Yeah. So it's very, very kind of like fun. Little time capsule of this like 82 to 85 or whatever this is. Why don't we see small manufacturers do this? We've seen like in the last 15 years with the rise and fall of like mini boutique companies, but no one really like actually gets a game out the door and tries to do something different. Like it's like all these companies in the past, like we saw Stern do it with Stern Electronics, with like Orbiter One and some of their later games. They're like trying goofy shit. You see like anytime like the market gets hard these companies would experiment and try. Why did companies quit experimenting? Does developing a new game just cost so much that you gotta play it safe now or what do you what do you think the answer is? Why like every time a boutique company comes on it comes into the scene they just try to make the same game that Stern's making for better or worse? I think that's definitely the company line. I don't think it's true at all like that they have to play it safe. Yeah. Like, but I know that's what that's the what they think they have to do. So that's what they're gonna do. But I don't think it's true at all. I think, you know, bad games with the same old layouts get released every year to little or no fanfare. And nobody goes when a new game comes out that's following all the new rules. It fails. Nobody's like, Oh, we got to we got to break out of this Italian bottom. People are sick of these layouts. This is proof. Nobody wants an Italian bottom because we made venom and people don't want it. But whenever something's a little different and is met with indifference by the market, it's immediately you can't have a danger room. But I think that generally speaking, we get more creative ideas happening in market downturns than we do in bull markets. So it's like until we have a devastating effect on pinball game, we're not going to see people move out of the comfort zone. I think we are in like a weird shrinking market at the moment. And I think it did leave like looking at like barrels of fun. They're going to a smaller production run for their, you know, newest release. And it is in a kind of original theme, basically an original theme with Winchester Mystery Manor. Soft license. And it's like, you know, it is a goofy kind of layout. Like it's different, new designer and shit. So it's like, I do think that it's like when you when you put these companies into a bad financial position, they can try new stuff like you see it, but it's like nothing like what they were trying back in the day. Yeah. It's interesting. Well, also, pinball is still a lot healthier. We have a lot of manufacturers not selling a ton of games, but still being able to survive because the margins are so much better now than they you can make very small runs and still make money. You make some money, make enough money for them to keep the doors open and be happy or whatever. It's interesting because it's like we always talk about here, like these new boutique runs are tiny, like everyone's like, oh, it's a smashing success because they sold out and you're like, yeah, but they capped it at a thousand units, which would be one of these All of these flops. Yeah, we would call this a flop in this era, which is the doldrums. The flop flop era. Yeah. And you're like, yeah. It'd be a flop in the flop era. Exactly. But now it's a huge hit. Yeah. In the modern era. But at the same time, I'm like, well, Gottlieb did keep the doors open selling like 2000 units of this shit. But there were also the development costs. Like, I don't know. It's weird. Do you think they've just decided like everyone's just unanimously decided the modern option, The modern formula, whatever, you know, modern games, what they are, deep rule sets, safe returns to your inlanes, Italian bottom, you know, just kind of what we think of as like a modern game. They've all just unanimously decided that's the only option. Unfortunately, I do believe that. I think it's whack as hell though, because it's completely ignoring that many location players prefer games that are no longer being made in any real capacity. It reminds me of the Roger Sharpe quote at the end of the Tilt Doc, Battle Say Pinball, where he's talking about how they proved that they could sell units, they could reinvent the wheel, they could do something different with pinball and the Pinball 2000 platform. And then Williams was like, nah, you still don't want to do this. And then he's basically like, well, sell me the assets. Like, let me carry on since you guys don't want to be in pinball anymore. When he's being asked why they didn't do that, why they just decided to shelve it instead of selling it to him where he could make it work, and he goes, I think once you decide that something isn't viable, I'm not sure how well it would sit with you if you saw someone else go and do it. So I think there's a part of that that's happening with pinball where they don't want to see... Yeah, it's like, no, that shit won't work. I think it would also be, you'd feel really dumb if you went... If you try to break the mold and you fail, like there's just nothing more embarrassing than doing something different and failing. Whereas if you do the same thing as everyone else and you fail, you kind of can like blame it on a variety of factors. If you do something out there, like you kind of said with like the danger room, if you do something like put the danger room from Jack's game Uncanny X-Men onto a game and then the game fails, everyone will be like, well, it's because of that danger room. Yeah. Like, you fucked that up. And you're like, now, now, like, there could be other things. Like, we gotta treat this like an objective, objective thing. But it's like, people will always point to the most obvious. Yeah, that's the reason. But whenever it's like, we get Italian bottom games all the time, and they come out, and the pinball community is like, bleh, well, don't like this game. And it's never like, it's the Italian bottom. That's the problem. They, you know, they stuck with the Italian bottom. Everyone's sick of Italian bottoms. People will complain about fan layouts. Or yeah, they'll say fan layouts, but then you know, it's like, they'll be like, oh, it's not loved because it's a fan layout. And then another one will come out and Pokemon's gonna sell fucking the most copies ever, you know, and it's gonna be a fan layout. And it's just funny how it's like, when something is different, the criticism is like, that's what they did. They stuck their head out. They got their head cut off because they were stupid and did something different. But it's never like when it's the same old shit and everyone's just sort of like, man, nobody's like, hey, let's change it up. Like, let's switch it up. And I think that's only something you do when you are desperate, like as a company, because like they have to be fiscally conservative as a company. They have to be like, let's be smart with our money. Let's try to make something that the market wants when you're hemorrhaging money and the whole world's on fire and you got one shot, you're willing to take risks that you would not do in a good time. I think part of it is almost that these guys like like looking at Gottlieb here, they didn't just have one shot to save the company. Stern Electronics with Orbiter One, maybe that was their one shot. But like, golly, it's like they were taking like a lot of shots along the way. Like they're trying goofy shit. And I think that to me is it's like, I think the development cycle of a modern game, everyone thinks that this is what the game has to be. It has to have all these animations that take a lot of effort, all the rules and program that takes a lot of effort, and you got to do all this shit for every release. So then you have to play it safe everywhere else. And it's like back then you're like, you can kind of like crank out these rule sets a lot quicker. I assume you can reuse a lot of the logic and everything. I think that's what Roger was saying, basically, is like they don't want it would be just as embarrassing if a new company came out. Like if Barrels of Fun had come out instead of making the awesome games that they do make right now, because I do think they're making awesome games. But if they just basically made a Stargazer. Yeah. and it ripped and it was fast and it you know they could they could sell it for like a Stern Pro yeah you know and they made small runs of really cool games like that and it worked and people wanted it and people saw it out on location because there's a big thing where i still get pushback from this but it's like you or other regulars will be like oh all these modern Sterns are on the floor we want these classics you have people on your lead team we don't want to play the new games and whenever i peek up in our discord and say that everyone's like no people like And I'm not saying people don't. What I'm saying is, in the modern pinball discourse, it's all about people only like this game, this type of shit. Yeah. When I'm like, dude, that is not true at all. We just don't get any options other than games that were made for the last 50 years. Yeah, it's like you're comparing a brand new game of which there is only one variety to, I mean, I guess, in Pulp Fiction, to like a game that's like 50 years old. Yeah. And you're like, well, that's not really apples to apples. It's not fair. It's like we didn't get to see Bond 60 at a reasonable price. Exactly. You know, because it's like Bond 60 is fucking fun, dude. It is a fun game. I was playing that just recently and I'm like, this is a good game. It's a fucking fun game. And it's like, I would love to see that, but the manufacturers are not motivated to give us that. And I think that it would, you know, there are people in charge that are like, they like one type of pinball. They've convinced themselves that they need to code games this way. They need to be complicated in this way. They need animations and bigger screens and RGB light shows. And you're like, yeah, maybe. I mean, there's definitely a crowd of people that like that, but there's there's a lot of people that just want to light spin a rip spinner, shoot some drops, you know, play some people just like Alien Star, man. You know, it's one of those things like we're not the only people that feel that way. I know that's I really think that's it because it's like I put in here like you think we're the only ones that like like this weird shit want to see this weird shit and I'm like no of course not I mean in the same way there's always room for weird movies or weird bands to find the audience pinball needs to continue to push the boundaries. Can you imagine if like A24 the movie studio came out and instead of making like interesting shit they just tried to make like Marvel movies for less money. Exactly. They're like, oh, it's like Batman, but we're calling him Ratman. And like, you know, and you're like, why are you doing that? Why don't you do something else? And that's what's always weird to me with the boutiques trying to make a Stern. Yeah. And you're like, I mean, they all want to, they all want to say they're making a Bally Williams. Ain't nobody making a Bally Williams. No, nobody's making a Bally Williams. Because Bally Williams were commercially viable. That's the difference. No offense to all, because it's like, I like a lot of boutique games. None of them are like a Bally Williams package for that price that Bally Williams were. No one's in that conversation. Exactly. I mean, no one's got the engineering. No one. That's why they're all trying to make it like a Stern competitor. And I'm like, you don't have to, man. Like, you can try some goofy shit. You never know. You might get like it like it might be. Everything sounds like a stupid, crazy idea until it works. Yeah. So it's like sometimes you have to shoot the moon to get anything different or interesting. Like, we can't just keep having revisions of the same thing. It is, it's just weird because it's like okay they made the they did the first run of TNA and they sold 550 and then they did another run and sold another 200 so there's 750 total nuclear annihilations out there and it's kind of like that made no lasting impact on the industry whereas they sold 888 Evil Dead's and it's the best game of all time. And like it's like oh every game is competing with Evil Dead now and I'm like wow it sold a hundred more than a game that made no impact and you're like why is just What's crazy is that I run into new players who love TNA, dude. Yeah. They love TNA and they're not even good at pinball or know anything about pinball. They just like it. They just like it, dude. And it's crazy how you sometimes have to, when you're discussing pinball with people, sort of like take a lot of shit. People are like, no, no, this game's gotta be this way. They gotta be this way. That's the only way. They cost a lot of money and they got to be home collect this and that and you're like there's a lot of home collectors with a fucking room full of classics. Yeah. There's a lot of other players that go out and play pinball and want to play 8 Ball Deluxe. Yeah. You know what I mean? They don't want to play Jaws. I don't know. Maybe all it's going to take is for the appreciation of those games to go up with the general public buying them and the pinball market and home collectors to keep growing to soak up all of those games because it's just a matter of supply and demand when it comes to like The pricing of classics, because it's like Alien Star, three grand game. And I'm like, I don't think so. I think that's like probably like a five or six grand game for a nice copy Alien Star. If you actually see one now and you're like, if all of the games start hitting that, those kind of prices, someone's going to wake up and be like, hey, some manufacturers going to make these for we can make a newer, better. Like these games aren't the end all, even though I love so many of these classics, I'm like, they're not the end all be all. Someone can theoretically make a game I like even more. Absolutely. You're like, that's the fun. That's the new stuff. So anyway, that's kind of the end of the episode rant on we like seeing weird shit. Make more weird shit, dude. System A.D.A. is full of it. And we're going to have some of that. Apparently, a few copies. We're going to have a spirit. We're going to have the Royal Flush Deluxe. Our Alien Star is getting a new playfield swapped in. Hell yeah, dude. That's exciting. So we're getting some cool games. I'm excited about all of those. Some weird shit. All you Wedgehead regulars out there, you know what to do. So you need to come into Wedgehead and play some of these fucking weirdo games because playing it safe is boring as hell. Exactly. So go out and play some weird games, play some of these System 80 games, System 80A games. This is like the most, the funniest topic we've done. We're like, these are ADAs. These are ADAs. Yeah, go find some System ADAs. Can you sort by ADA on fucking pinball maps? Yeah. Well, I don't know. We could talk to Ryan and Scott though. Guys, we need a filter. You're like, people only want to play ADAs. A lot of these are rare, but go find some Gottliebs in general and just appreciate the weirdness. Yeah. Go out, play some pinball, enjoy yourselves, and until next time, good luck. Don't suck. Shake it up, it's all that we know. Using bodies up as we go. I'm waking up to a fantasy. The shades all around, the colors we use. The colors we use. The We see broken eyes still melt in the sun. Ties that were broken, often they were, yeah. We're so alone, and so really matters to me. You're out of touch. I'm out of time. But I'm out of my head when you're not around. I believe, was this before his game plan games? Oh, I don't know. Let's look that up real, let's get this right while we're here. Yeah. Just cause I don't want someone to be like, oh, I'm actually did. He did some game plan games early. So if you were only looking at... If I was just looking at System 80? Yeah. He did just... it just says artwork though. Oh, he did do... it is before his game plan games released. So he was working for game plan before this. That is kind of fucked up. I just want to make sure we got this right. Weird timeline. So we'll just say it's one of his first designs? Yeah. Let's just do that. Be like, he had done some work for game plan and I think it was actually released after this. Because I don't want... you're right. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v4)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: bc1a3c0f-5b9a-4d76-8479-4ed763054b1f*