# The Pinball Show Ep 181: Season Of The Empire **Source:** The Pinball Show **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2025-09-09 **Duration:** 80m 57s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.thepinballnetwork.net/e/the-pinball-show-ep-181-season-of-the-empire/ --- ## Analysis The Pinball Show episode 181 covers Stern Pinball's recent announcements and production schedule, with primary focus on the newly teased Star Wars: Fall of the Empire cornerstone release (Pro/Premium/LE with 770 LEs, no Europe distribution, mid-to-late September/October launch). Hosts discuss the game's likely Original Trilogy focus, designer John Borg's track record, and market positioning. Secondary coverage includes production updates for Q4 2024-early 2026, vaulting of several titles, and Chicago Gaming's Cactus Canyon upgrade kit shipments. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Star Wars: Fall of the Empire will be produced in three tiers (Pro, Premium, LE) with exactly 770 LEs, marking 1977 (A New Hope release year) — _Dennis and Zach discussing dealer information received from Stern Pinball; 770 number is specific and tied to thematic significance_ - [HIGH] No Star Wars: Fall of the Empire LEs will be sold to Europe due to different licensing arrangements between North America and Europe — _Zach states 'none are going to Europe' due to licensing, later confirmed by Google search results mentioning different licensing processes between regions_ - [MEDIUM] Star Wars: Fall of the Empire will feature a larger screen than previous Stern games but maintain a full translight — _Dennis reports 'larger screen' and 'full trans light' from Spike 3 word, unclear how both fit; speculation about cabinet redesign_ - [HIGH] Game designer is John Borg with programming by Raymond Davidson — _Dennis: 'John Borg. He designed the data East one... Programming by none other than our friend Raymond Davidson'_ - [MEDIUM] Star Wars: Fall of the Empire will use media assets/clips from films rather than custom Jurassic Park-style content — _Zach: 'the rumor is very strong' regarding media clips; Stern's recent pattern post-Jurassic Park of shifting back to film clips due to community pushback_ - [HIGH] LEs will ship mid-September, with Premium and Pro following late September into early October — _Dennis: 'LEs are going to be produced first, probably come mid-September here for the LEs. And then the premium and pro models are going to be late September into early October'_ - [HIGH] No pricing increase for Star Wars: Fall of the Empire compared to previous cornerstone releases — _Dennis: 'No pricing changes' after discussing Spike 3 implementation_ - [MEDIUM] The game will likely focus on Episodes IV-VI (Original Trilogy) based on the 1977 LE number and 'Fall of the Empire' title — _Dennis: '1977 being an anniversary date' for A New Hope; Zach: 'most people are saying...rumors are episodes four through six the original trilogy'_ ### Notable Quotes > "Star Wars is consistently one of our most requested and most searched pinball franchises for both existing and new pinball fans" > — **Stern Pinball (dealer information)**, ~14:30 > _Official market research justifying immediate Star Wars re-release despite recent Mandalorian version_ > "I'm not against it, but I can't get enthused about something...it's like we get more pinball machines than we do movies for Star Wars" > — **Dennis**, ~38:00 > _Expresses community fatigue with repeated Star Wars IP despite acknowledging it as evergreen commercial success_ > "I'm down for a Star Wars pin every five years. I'm all in" > — **Zach**, ~38:30 > _Contrasts with Dennis's skepticism; distributor/hobbyist perspective on IP refresh cycles_ > "John Borg, the good thing is that he doesn't make a bad layout ever...The downside is he makes a safe layout" > — **Zach**, ~42:00 > _Design philosophy assessment of lead designer; acknowledges competence vs. innovation tension_ > "I think it takes over a month, but under two" > — **Dennis (LE sellout prediction)**, ~48:30 > _Predicts slower LE movement than typical due to Europe exclusion and lower 770 unit count_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Star Wars: Fall of the Empire | game | Newly announced Stern Pinball cornerstone release (Pro/Premium/LE); designer John Borg, programmer Raymond Davidson; 770 LEs, Original Trilogy focus, Spike 3 platform | | John Borg | person | Lead designer of Star Wars: Fall of the Empire; veteran Stern designer known for Data East games, Guardians, Metallica, Kiss, Aerosmith; characterized as making consistent, safe layouts | | Raymond Davidson | person | Programmer for Star Wars: Fall of the Empire; referenced as 'Ray Day'; discussed in context of storytelling capabilities for non-music pinball | | Dennis Creasel | person | Co-host of The Pinball Show; pinball dealer providing market insights and production schedule information | | Zach Manning | person | Co-host of The Pinball Show; co-hosts Eclectic Gamers podcast; provides analysis and predictions on game sales and design | | Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer; releasing Star Wars: Fall of the Empire and managing Q4 2024-2026 production schedule; implementing Spike 3 platform | | Disney / Lucasfilm | company | Manages Star Wars IP globally; different licensing processes for North America vs. Europe affecting LE distribution | | Chicago Gaming Company | company | Shipping Cactus Canyon upgrade kit; creators Josh Sharp and Lyman Sheets previously worked on Monster Bash enhancement | | The Pinball Show | organization | Podcast series featuring industry news, dealer perspectives, and pinball analysis hosted by Dennis and Zach | | Jaws 50th Anniversary | game | Stern Premium currently in production; final run planned for December; discussed in context of Q4 production schedule | | The Walking Dead (Remastered) | game | Rumored for late October/November remaster release on Stern production schedule | | Metallica Remastered Premium | game | Scheduled for November production; currently out of stock at Stern dealer network | | Dungeons & Dragons | game | Pro and Premium versions returning to November production schedule after earlier vaulting | | Jurassic Park | game | Premium currently shipping; referenced as Stern's custom-content approach game; Premium scheduled for 2026 production; impacts Star Wars design philosophy discussion | | Pokemon | game | Rumored cornerstone for early January 2026 release; designed by Jack Danger (now departed); Keith Elwin not finishing the project | | Jack Danger | person | Original Pokemon pinball designer for Stern; departed before completion; streaming with Stern executives discussing Star Wars licensing | | Keith Elwin | person | Stern designer; confirmed NOT finishing Pokemon project; publicly distanced himself from cleanup work | | Deadpool Pro | game | Vaulted title; no longer available to dealers | | Spike 3 | product | Stern's new operating system platform for Star Wars and future cornerstones; features larger screen, full translight; no backward pricing adjustment | | Flippin' Out Pinball | organization | YouTube channel streaming Cactus Canyon upgrade kit gameplay; host Joel featuring Josh Sharp (upgrade kit creator) | | Cactus Canyon Upgrade Kit | product | Chicago Gaming Company enhancement; shipped recently; created by Josh Sharp and Lyman Sheets; previously prototyped on Monster Bash | ### Topics - **Primary:** Star Wars: Fall of the Empire announcement and specifications, Stern Pinball production schedule and vaulting strategy Q4 2024-2026, Spike 3 platform implementation and screen/translight configuration - **Secondary:** Community sentiment on Star Wars IP saturation and repetition, Designer John Borg's layout philosophy and track record, Licensing differences between North America and Europe for Star Wars, LE sales predictions and European market impact - **Mentioned:** Chicago Gaming Cactus Canyon upgrade kit shipments ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.45) — Dennis expresses skepticism and fatigue with Star Wars repetition despite acknowledging commercial viability; Zach is more enthusiastic but measured. Overall tone is professional analysis with underlying ambivalence about the creative choice, offset by confidence in market performance. No strong negative or positive emotional response. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Multiple Stern titles vaulted across Q4 2024: Deadpool Pro, Star Wars Comic Pro/Premium, Foo Fighters Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Rush Pro/Premium, Mandalorian Pro/Premium (confidence: high) — Dennis provides comprehensive vaulting list; indicates production focus shift toward new cornerstone and holiday season inventory - **[sentiment_shift]** Mixed reaction to Star Wars IP choice: commercial acknowledgment vs. audience fatigue with repeated Original Trilogy content (confidence: high) — Dennis: 'it almost feels like we get more pinball machines than we do movies for Star Wars'; Zach counters with distributor rationale and five-year refresh cycle acceptance - **[design_philosophy]** John Borg designer selection generates confidence in consistent quality but caution about 'safe' layout similarity to prior work (Guardians, Metallica, Kiss, Aerosmith) (confidence: medium) — Zach: 'The downside is he makes a safe layout. Safe meaning similar'; acknowledges his layouts are hard but similar to each other - **[design_philosophy]** Stern shifting from custom content (Jurassic Park model) back to media asset clips for Star Wars after community pushback (confidence: medium) — Zach: 'after jurassic park...stern has been okay...people just are not as receptive to it...so I think that they're gonna put in clips when they can now'; rumor of strong media asset inclusion - **[licensing_signal]** European licensing restrictions preventing Star Wars: Fall of the Empire LE sales in that region despite global Star Wars popularity (confidence: high) — Zach: 'none are going to Europe...because of the quote-unquote licensing'; Google search confirms different licensing processes between North America and Europe under Disney/Lucasfilm management - **[market_signal]** 770 LE production count (lower than typical 1000) combined with Europe exclusion expected to slow sales velocity vs. recent cornerstone releases (confidence: high) — Dennis: '770 is lower than 1,000...without Europe being able to buy any of them, I do think it's slower'; predicts over one month but under two months to sellout - **[personnel_signal]** Jack Danger departed Pokemon pinball project before completion; Keith Elwin explicitly not finishing; project reassignment ongoing (confidence: high) — Dennis: 'Keith Elwin is not the one finishing it. That came out very strong this last couple of weeks. It's almost like he's like, just for the record, I want everybody to know it was not me' - **[announcement]** Star Wars: Fall of the Empire officially teased and announced as Stern cornerstone release with confirmed specifications (confidence: high) — Teaser released two weeks prior; dealer seminar and media open house scheduled; 770 LEs, three-tier production, mid-September to early October launch window - **[product_strategy]** Chicago Gaming Company Cactus Canyon upgrade kit in shipment phase; development originally prototyped on Monster Bash before production shift (confidence: high) — Dennis: 'They started shipping...Joel's been streaming them...Josh Sharp, one of the creators...had him on it as a guest'; Sharp and Lyman Sheets created enhancement before Cactus Canyon shift - **[product_strategy]** Stern production schedule mapped through early 2026 with clear Cornerstone marker strategy and vaulting pattern around new releases (confidence: high) — Dennis: detailed quarterly breakdown of King Kong Premium, Stranger Things Pro, Star Wars FOTE, Walking Dead Remaster, D&D, Jurassic Park, Metallica Remaster, Godzilla through January 2026 Pokemon Cornerstone - **[technology_signal]** Spike 3 platform deployment on Star Wars with larger screen but maintained translight, representing hardware evolution without backward pricing (confidence: medium) — Dennis: 'larger screen but...still have a full trans light'; cabinet redesign speculation; no price increase despite new tech --- ## Transcript Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. The Pinball Show, episode 181. Dennis Creasel, Zach Manning. Dennis, how are you today? I'm doing good. It's football season. I love the team. I'm not doing good. The Chiefs, well, you know. Why are they even in Brazil? What was that all about? They've done it before. At least they weren't sliding all over the field this time. See Travis Kelsey? He's fired up, man. He caught a ball, so he's like, I'm already doing better than I did last season. Tay-Tay said yes. Yeah. Congratulations. I guess she wasn't at the game because they didn't cut to her 20,000 times. I'm just saying. Was she going to travel down to Brazil? I mean, maybe. Do a concert on the side. So they came up a little short. Oh, okay. Butker went far right. Wide right Who would have thought that he would be wide right That's good stuff So I'm excited about the football season It's also, we talked about it last episode Fall is upon us So you will probably start pulling out All of your boxes from the attic Of all the spooky Seasonal stuff Like the spiders And the cobwebs and all of that Are you more of a Halloween decorator Or a fall decorator? Autumn Which one do you focus on? Or both? i have to go through door door c i i do not own a single i do not own a single piece of halloween decor you don't have that i get out for halloween i guess i technically do decorate more for fall simply because some of the towels i have to put on the oven are fall themed the rotation but i But they were a gift, so I use them year-round. So I've had the fall ones on the oven for the last two years. I got like six. I just – when I wash one, I just hang – I put things in the drawer, and it's whatever's on top. And their leaves are – I think one of them says autumn on it. Autumn. Well, it's got more like brown stuff on it. That's like underwear with the days of the week on it. I've heard of those. I didn't know if that's a real thing or not. them. Why would anybody want to use those? What is the benefit? The only thing I could think of is they want to ensure equitable wearing so that everything wears down at the same pace. Make sense? I have towels in the bathroom for the shower. I don't go through all my towels in a week. When I do laundry, I put the towels that I just used that are now clean on the bottom of the pile. And then that's what I do to make. So then when I need to replace the towels, I just replace all of them because they're all equally worn. So I guess doing that with underwear would work. But the thing is there's seven days in a week. If you're wearing a new pair each day, they would be equitably worn down anyway, unless you've got like 20 different pair and you keep them. I don't know how you organize them. I don't wear underwear. Well, I guess I don't even know why you went down that entire discussion, and the listeners definitely do not care. See, you're very practical. For me, I would think like they're there for if you're really hot and heavy with this 90-year-old, almost demented woman, and you get her so good, and you guys are just making love like no other, and she comes out of her stupor, and she's, you know, cognitively maybe a little behind. Maybe she's a little slowed, and she's trying to figure out what day it is because that's what you brought. You brought that heat, Creasel. And she looks up, and she's like, Tuesday. See, your mind goes to, like, the wearing of threads and all that. I'm talking about banging graini's. So that's the pinball show. Oh, I did have to say that my wife stumbled upon our show a couple weeks ago. Stumbled? Like she just tripped in it? Sometimes she does. hit the youtube and it somehow typed in play and i've told her before it's inappropriate for any children to be watching the show much less my children they've heard it all i mean but our youngest uh was not a big fan he was in the back seat me stumbling around trying to figure out his name it was a shtick thing like what's his name oh yeah fletcher he wasn't uh he did And he's never even heard the show. And, yeah, he was salty for like a week. I was going to say, on the plus side, at least I suppose for you, the therapy bills are cheaper. Do you like give him a family discount rate when he deals with this drama? Daddy doesn't even know my name. He was pretty tore up about it, and I felt like a huge dick. I felt horrible about that. I was like trying to explain to him the bit and like it's a timing thing and the timing worked really well. So I leaned into that as the punchline. But no, son, like and I told him, I'm like, you're my favorite anyway. So come on. Now one of the other ones is going to listen. Oh, this son of a bitch is going to pay for that. Yeah. You have to explain how that was a bit. Be going to be a Lululemon receipt that I'm going to see on the bar upstairs. So, yeah, that was my only thing. So shout out to Fletcher. You're my favorite child. I think probably the smartest of the entire squad that we've got going. And I think you're going to amount to the most, to be quite honest with you. Just don't blow it on a geriatric porn and underwear with days of the week on it, and you'll be fine. Go get them, son. Let's talk about some pinball. Okay. The past couple of weeks, stern pinball. We've got some big announcements. A new release. Oh, wait. Almost. Almost. Almost. What? I don't understand. It's only mostly released. Fall of the launch. We've got production updates first. The past couple of weeks, Jaws 50th. Those premiums. They've been making that September run, as we talked about, in King Kong Premium. The rest of September we'll be looking at Stranger Things Pro And then the newly announced Star Wars Fall of the Empire In October we're also going to see Star Wars FOT What do we call it? FOT? Fall of the Empire? I mean FOTE? I'm sure that'll be its abbreviation It'll be SWA-FOT SWA-FOT SWA-FOT Late October into November We're going to have the remastered game likely. The rumor is The Walking Dead. November, we're going to see Dungeons & Dragons Pro and Premium make an appearance back on the production schedule, as well as Jurassic Park Premium, Metallica Remastered Premium, and Godzilla Premium. If you kind of look at that, viewer and listener, that would be them getting ready for the holiday season, making a bunch of different titles in November, A bunch of the really good selling titles that will go into the holiday season buying schedule. And then in December, we're going to see the last run of that Jaws 50th anniversary, final run, as well as some Jaws pros. Yay. January is going to come along. It's going to be 2026 Cornerstone, the first one of the year. The rumor is Pokemon, the one that Jack Danger was working on, but then he's out. I'm hearing Keith Elwin is not the one finishing it. That came out very strong this last couple of weeks. It's almost like he's like, just for the record, I want everybody to know it was not me working. He's like, I don't do cleanup. Clean up. I'll not. I only work on my own projects. So that will be probably early January. And then 2026. 2026, the reason I list these, viewer, is that all of these games are slated for 2026, thus no plans to make them the rest of this year, including Jurassic Park Pro, Jaws Premium, Uncanny X-Men Pro and Premium, King Kong Pro, James Bond Pro, and Godzilla Pro. So are they vaulting anything that you know of? Nothing in addition right now. I do know that there are plenty of games out of stock at Stern Pinball that us dealers can't buy at the moment, including Jaws Premium and the 50th anniversary, Metallica Remastered, Jurassic Park Pro, Deadpool Pro, which is vaulted now, so those are gone, gone. Star Wars Comic Pro and Premium vaulted. Foo Fighters Pro vaulted. Iron Maiden Pro vaulted. Rush Pro and Premium vaulted. And the Mandalorian Pro and Premium vaulted. Star Wars Fall of the Empire we've seen the teaser that was just which I appreciate from a dealer I'm appreciative of the way that they launched this teaser being that it was the theme only I'm honestly a no teaser guy I don't like being teased so for me from a sales point of view I like just blowing your load and just showing it all and taking sales. But Stern likes to do the teaser prior. They're not the only ones. Not the only ones, but historically Stern lately has been doing the teaser stuff. And then they launch usually the next week. A little bit different here. We'll talk about why. But since they are doing a teaser, from a sales perspective, I like that they're not showing anything off. But a lot of people in the hobby thought, damn, they wanted more. They yearned for more, Dennis. There's a lot of yearning. And I can't blame them. But then again, they wanted something to talk about, especially if there's a time lapse between the teaser and the reveal. And I don't blame them there. A lot of people are kind of squirrely on the whole title of the game, Star Wars Fall of the Empire. Nothing formal from the canon of Star Wars that I know of called Fall of the Empire. Yeah, I asked Tony, my co-host on Eclectic Gamers podcast, because he's actually read Star Wars books. So I thought he might, like, is it a book title? He's like, no, I don't know it from anything. Yeah. And so, you know, the thought is, okay, well, what does it mean? What does it mean, Zach? It could mean a lot of things. I mean, it could just represent an era of the, I guess, the chronology of Star Wars. So obviously I think it's safe to say it rules out the prequels as being content because that was while the empire got built up. But where would you say that the empire started to fall? You could say the original trilogy with the destruction of the first Death Star. That's what you could say. You could say Return of the Jedi with the destruction of the second Death Star and the defeat of the emperor. Like maybe that's where you're like at that point, the empire has fallen. in or maybe you say well up and through new hope no that's too soon but everything from empire on would be them basically on the back foot at that point it could be a number of things you said no prequel but you cannot have a fall unless you have a rise sure but i'm again i don't know whether they can do whatever they want with the game i'm just i'm just wondering like if if it's all about the empire losing, then I would excise its creation as being too broad. It's like deciding when did the Roman Empire end. There's not one date. There's one that most historians agree on, but it just sort of depends on where you want to say when the Eastern Empire and the Western Empire separated or after the last Western Emperor or however you want to do it. It's tricky. E2? So the stern information that we've received as a dealer, based on market research, quote, Star Wars is consistently one of our most requested and most searched pinball franchises for both existing and new pinball fans, end quote. I can see that. I'm sure that research took all of 20 seconds. But there's over $46 billion in global revenue, including more than $10 billion in global box office revenue. That might have taken three minutes. Star Wars is a top seller in every product category Including merchandising, publishing, video games, theme parks You name it, it's always up there They're saying this is, you know, Star Wars is Star Wars It's going to sell They're trying to justify why they're redoing the theme so soon This is all right Some sales and pitch points A fan base spanning multiple generations Ensuring the franchise's relevance for decades to come It's got a tail, essentially I will say this. Info thus far from Stern Pinball to dealers indicates that the pinball machine will aim, whatever this means, will aim to celebrate this legacy and become a centerpiece for collectors, fans, and locations. Interesting use of the term celebration of this legacy. And after this legacy, they span through everything. so we shall see most people are saying you know rumors are episodes four through six the original trilogy and it would fit with the name it would sure uh the name itself doesn't even bother me i know some people are bothered by that um it makes sense to me because if you what are you going to call it star wars episodes four or five just call it all of the empire yeah i i just think i think where other than maybe just disliking the name they should like follow that they don't like the name fall though the fall of the empire sounds very star warsy as a name i think it's perfectly competent name i think it's they hear it and they don't know is this going to be like show assets or is this going to be like an original tale jurassic park style what is this right right i think that's what bothers them more is that they hear this and it doesn't it's not the name of the movie it's not the name of a show it's not the name of a book and it's not a commonly used phrase to describe either of the three trilogies that exist therefore it's gonna be uh custom trash people are worried that we're gonna get uh uh we're gonna get right the world of jurassic park rather than what we've come accustomed to but i think it's going to use media assets that's what uh the rumor is the rumor is very strong i'm hearing yeah i think i think after um after jurassic park it's good of a game and obviously you mentioned it being still on the future uh production schedule for obvious reasons a very good game i think after jurassic park though to me it felt like stern has been okay people it's a lot of work to do the custom stuff anyway and people just are not as receptive to it as putting in clips from stuff and so i think that they're gonna put in clips when they can now because there's just a lot of pushback when they don't. Licensing is so strange for this IP, though. Yeah, but they have a solid relationship with Disney. It's different with Disney. They've worked with them before. I mean, Spike 2, we had Star Wars. It used clips from the original trilogy. And audio, yeah. It's in no way far-fetched to think that they would be able to have access to that stuff again. Did we usually have this, like if they were going to do a – when did they do that teaser? Did you do it on Tuesday? Tuesday, but two Tuesdays ago. Two Tuesdays ago. So that's the tricky thing. And I can say at the time of this recording, we as a dealer have still not been given an official timeline on release. I'm guessing they're going to release it this week. but usually they'll send out an invite for a dealer seminar on the day of launch. They do have a dealer open house this Tuesday and they have a media open house this Wednesday, I believe, but that's not to say they don't just have those people sign NDAs and cause on the Jack was doing a stream Jack danger and talking with the executives from Stern. They were talking about still needing, Like they're just waiting for that final licensing approval, you know, thumbs up to go. Everything's probably been approved, but they need the final like here's what launch looks like. Here's what we're planning on doing and good to go. I don't know why they did the teaser this soon. Early then. It seems early. Yeah. Because normally it's within a week, right? It's usually within a week that we see them. It's usually on a Friday and then we launch on a Tuesday. I just don't. I don't understand. I don't either. We do know that they're going to be – it's going to be a cornerstone, so pro, premium, and LEs. The LEs, they're going to have 770 to mark 1977 being an anniversary date, so 770 LEs. Interestingly, Dennis and viewer, none are going to Europe. Oh, that is really interesting. Because of licensing, because of the quote-unquote licensing. Well, the 770 does make me think that New Hope will be a part of it because that's the one that came out in 77. I didn't even think about that. What's that all about? Okay, well, I say, yeah, because I'm like, Star Wars is popular everywhere. Europe will want those. I've heard that the licensing, the IP holder is different in Europe than it is in North America. And that wouldn't be a tip. I don't know anything about licensing arrangements with the power of the Internet. I may search for that while you – Are you going to have the AI machine? Well, I was just going to ask Google. I don't like to make the microchips do all the heat and stuff for simple – I don't need it to compile me something. I just want an answer. So as you're looking that up, we do know that LEs are going to be produced first, probably come mid-September here for the LEs. And then the premium and pro models are going to be late September into early October. This is the one time I don't know if premiums are coming before pros or the other way around. I'm not sure. I know the LEs are coming probably mid-September, so within a week or so. Here's some other good news. No pricing changes. we thought for sure you're going to have a new operating system spike three word is that there's a larger screen but word also says that there's still a full trans light so how does that work i don't know we're about to see initially i thought there was going to be no screen now it sounds as if there is i don't know what other components are being left out of the spike 3 system that we'll have to follow on maybe the remastered or the other cornerstone come early 2026. I'm not sure. What's the Google machine saying? The Google's machine says that Disney and Lucasfilm manage the license globally. I don't know. But that there are different processes between the two areas. Maybe license distribution. I don't know. Sorry. What do you think about No pricing changes. Not surprising once we found out what Spike 3 was Okay Still surprises me because they probably needed to have a bump up in pricing Why? Over the last couple. They already did it, Zach. They did it when they jacked the price by so much when they added Insider Connected. I could see the argument, but it just feels like they're hedging toward a, yeah, that's just what it felt like. But maybe they're going to do it once we get the full Spike 3 system. I mean, at some point there will be another price increase, sure. How do we get a full Translight but a larger screen? The cabinet redesign. The backbox could be taller. So I guess this. Or they take away some of the bordering that existed. You know, I mean, there's a framing around that existing screen. Maybe that trim is thinner now. I'm wondering if the aspect ratio of the screen will change. you know, maybe we just get, I had assumed no, but increasingly wider so that you can display the 16, nine video clips on there, but also have additional. Okay. Yeah, no, that's a good point for the UI. It'd be like, that could just be wider and no taller than it was. I don't know. We'll have to wait and see their design. John Borg. He designed the data East one. Shoot the testa. Programming by none other than our friend Raymond Davidson. His first non-music pen? Well, it's hard to say Star Wars in a music pen with the John Williams score. Come on. Yes, but I mean, will Raymond actually get to tell a story? I hope so. Ray Day, we're ready for moments. Ray Day, do you know how to tell a story? We don't know. We'll find out. It better not suck. Hold up, my phone's ringing. Oh, it's Ray Day. He's texting. It's like, Zach, I need to know how to tell a story. You're the moment maker, please. It's like, it's Star Wars already written. Just tell it. Give me an afternoon and I'll have 12 pages of stuff ready for you to go. So they were showing off games of the past. Stern was on streams showing the Data East game. I think they went really far back, even to the Spanish. What was that Spanish edition of Empire Strikes Back? Oh, you're thinking Space Gambler? No, no, no. No, it was. I think it was like a one-off. Because if you've not seen it. I know there's a Hankin one. Right. Well, the Hankin one was actually licensed. Yeah, that was licensed. With Vader on the back, but I think it's basically a Firepower layout. There was a Spanish company called Playmatic, and they made a game called Space Gambler. But it's like R2-D2 and 3PO are shooting dice, and my brother-in-law owns the game. It's one of the more common Playmatics to find in the United States, actually. They did show, whenever they were streaming the different games over the week, they showed different toy sculpts that were going to come from Fall of the Empire, including Jabba the Hutt. We get that. We get the Death Star again. And we get the Millennium Falcon. All of those have been shown. None of them looked interactive. They just looked molded. I don't know how to feel about that. And a lot of people are like, well, is the Death Star just the same from the Spike 2 game? Is the Millennium Falcon the same? I don't know. Scale could be different on them. I'm not sure. Will this game be a hit? It's Star Wars, yes. Are you excited about this game? No. Oh. No? Because you're a Trekkie? What's your deal? No. I just, I don't know. I'm just not. I need to see it. The theme does nothing. What? The theme does nothing? Zach, I mean, as much grief as I give you about Back to the Future and you wanting Back to the Future, at least there's only one game. Like, if I want Star Wars, I got so many choices. I got Daddy Star Wars. I've got the Sega Star Wars that no one ever talks about. I have, if I want the rare stuff, I have the Hankin Star Wars. I could talk about the Episode I Star Wars for the Pinball 2000. And then we've got the Star Wars that Steve Ritchie did. Like, that's five there. Like, it's a, it's, they're, everything they said is right. it is the most popular theme it's the right answer right now in my opinion like what would you do to fight harry potter there's only one readily available license that's bigger it's star wars so perfect time to go ahead so maybe not the game you want but the game you need i see like i like you know it makes there's a lot of reasons for i don't agree with the community where where they'll say another star wars this soon it's like it's star wars it's evergreen sure it's not it's not there's never a bad time to do Star Wars from like a market standpoint, but you can't, I don't feel you can really expect me or anyone to be like, oh my God, Star Wars. I've never, I saw, I've been dreaming of it. It's like, no, I, that dream has been, we've had that dream a lot. So that's, that's my stance. I'm not, I'm not against it, but I can't get enthused about something that it's, it's like we get more, it almost feels like we get more pinball machines than we do movies for Star Wars. like I, especially because they like to revisit the same. Well, so much other than that episode one, one, it's been four through six, four through six, four through six. And I think this will be four through six again. I do. Okay. I'm super excited because I'm down for a star Wars pin every five years. I'm, I'm all in. I think there's enough. There's enough stuff within multiple films that you can create. I mean, look at Lego. But it hasn't been five years because we did Mando. I'm talking about. Oh, you mean just me? Oh, redoing the same movies every five years. Every five years, I'm down for it. That's a very distributor argument to make. Well, no, that's a hobbyist thing. Like if I'm doing Legos, I'm not complaining that Lego is making another Star Wars set that's different. Like I think they are right now. No, but they do different stuff. I think they're redoing the entire Death Star. Like, yeah, that's what I think. Nobody likes that Death Star. They're making a new one. Yes, and it's dumb because all it is is the inside. I was shown a picture of it, and I was like, where's the sphere? And it's like, no. They've got the little closing walls. And it's like $3,500. There's just so much stuff that you can use to create different Lego scenes. I think the same goes for pinball. I really do. Pinball is not Lego. But why not? Because you don't build anything. Half the collectors now don't even know how to plug in a soldering iron. Are you kidding me? I'm not going to argue against that. Because you can't. They don't know because they're calling Greg all the time. Like, how do I put a ball in? How do I get the glass out? They don't know. What have we given up for this glorious luxury empire? Competence. I think it's going to be good. Well, my only worry is this is a pro and con for me. John Borg as the designer. I'm mixed. Why? The good thing for me anyway, if I'm thinking as a hobbit, because, dude, fucking Star Wars. I'm going to own this game. I'm looking forward to owning this game. It's going to have a bigger screen. I'm already aroused. I'm ready to go. but John Borg, the good thing is that he doesn't – I'm trying to think if he makes a bad layout ever. He's so seasoned that he doesn't – he does not make a bad layout. Does he? I'm trying to think if there's any – How far back are we allowed to go? Recent memory, a couple decades. No, I mean – The downside is he makes a safe layout. Safe meaning similar. Similar is a better word than safe. Yeah, I would agree. Because he has harder layouts than most of the – actually, I would say he has the hardest layouts of anyone who is a designer at Stern. I don't think he means to. Because Eddie does more fan layout than Borg does. And Elwynn's games tend to play long by design. Obviously, he designs them. I think he means to, like, he feels that's the modern approach. And I feel, I don't have enough time on X-Men to really judge it. Foo Fighters is a long player, though, so in terms of Jack. And obviously, how long, I'm still going to count him as a designer, so I'm going to say that. But Borg has had some, like, turtles. Turtles are mean. And I thought turtles was a different layout from him in the sense that all the shots felt like they're in a different spot on the flipper than I was familiar with for, like, if we were to compare it to, say. Yeah, but then Rush came along and it felt like a flipped version of Turtles. And I could see that. But what about like Guardians? Metallica. Kiss. They're similar. That's what I'm... I won't argue it. What are we going to get from Borg here? The good thing is that I still own Guardians. I still love it. So he makes great games. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. Sometimes he makes the coolest toys. I mean, Aerosmith, again, that's another one of those layouts, just like Kiss kind of thing. Had some cool toys. It did. We will. We'll see. We'll see where this goes. Anything else about Star Wars? You think it sells out quickly, or do you think it's another one of those LEs that trickles on until the rest of the year? 770 is lower than 1,000. no price increase. We already said all that. Yes, I know. I haven't forgotten in the last five minutes. The reason why I'm pausing is without Europe being able to buy any of them, I do think it's slower. But it gets there. I think it gets there. I don't think it's going to be like, oh yeah, I can still find an Ellie of John Wick. Okay. Does that make sense? Like, I think it sells out the L.E.s, but I think it takes more than two weeks to do it. I guess if you want me to give you a number, I think it takes over a month, but under two. That would be my prediction. Okay. I'm predicting that it sells out. Man, that was a good guess. I'm very seasoned at this. I'm saying it sells out by Expo. So a little over a month. So you're basically saying the same as me. A little over a month. You're being a little tighter. You're being a little tighter, though. You're like, it's more to the one month than the two months. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if it sold out by the end of the month. Then again, it's Star Wars. So if this thing comes out and it's a Butte Clark, it could sell out within the first week pretty simply. Sure. I'm having to go off of no – I have no layout. I haven't looked at the toys. I've heard about the sculpts, but I haven't looked at them. I'm going off – it is a very popular license. However, $170 is still a lot of units for an LE, and without Europe being able to get them, and they're normally a pretty big chunk of these sales. A lot of other people might – and we're not – we don't even know what the art packages look like. Like the premium looks better because there are – I know there are some people that are just – I only buy LEs. But there are others that will go off of whatever art package they think is the better of the two. And then we'll likely get a 50th anniversary. Right, yeah, the black and white version next year. I don't – You know what's odd? Here's what happens at my house. My family is gone. I'm recording. There is someone in my house right now. Ken? I haven't a clue who it is. I hear them walking around and talking upstairs, and I simply don't know who it could be. Yeah, they've been walking around for the last five minutes as if they belong there. But I don't know who it is. Let's go see. I'm going to go see real quick, and I'll be back. Who do you think it is? Any guesses? I said Ken. Hey, Pimbaland. my land. I'll be back. It was just wrong house. Chicago Gaming Company. They're shipping them. The Cactus Canyon upgrade kit. They started shipping. I think Joel's been streaming them on the Flip N Out Pinball channel on YouTube. He loves Cactus Canyon. He loves it. Just loves it. I'm really anticipating getting into my game as well. I still own mine. I'm looking forward to it. He had Josh Sharpe, one of the creators of the upgrade kit, had him on it as a guest. You guys got to go check that out. That was a really fun gameplay video. Interesting tidbit that I like to hear. Josh Sharpe and Lyman Sheets, the creators of the new code and all of that, they started this whole enhancement upgrade kit process actually with Monster Bash before being shifted over to Cactus Canyon. So the original thought was to create this for Monster Bash. What do you make of that? I mean, Monster Bash could use it. Very welcomed. That's what holds it back for me. They actually would make more... I mean, I get it because CCR was never finished by Williams and Monster Bash was, but Monster Bash is a better game. So, I mean, I don't like Monster Bash anyway as a layout, so I don't care. I prefer Cactus' layout to Monster Bash, quite frankly, but I think from a sales perspective, Monster Bash would have been a logical choice. So, needless to say, they got some stuff in the can for future stuff. Here's some more tits and more bits. They've even conceptualized, they being formerly Lyman and Josh Sharpe, conceptualized new rules and changes to many of the big titled Bally Williams games, such as Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, maybe deeper down the well than that. They even have, I guess, conceptually or maybe mechanically already created physical changes and or additional mechs for these games as well for future production purposes. so we can see kind of what CGC's 2.0 plan was where it was heading that excites the hell out of me so not only were we getting the best done remakes to a point that they're preferred over the originals but we always ask like what are we going to do when that well dries up you could probably continue making runs of them every 5 years each title but it's nice to see 2.0 plan was or is additional enhancement kits that will be coming out in the future. I think it's the smartest thing ever and something that takes IPs that are known to pinball. They are like classic pinball items and enhances them to make them compete with everything else in the marketplace. I would say, and many agree, that the depth now through Cactus Canyon Remake with this enhancement or upgrade kit, now more depth and more things to do, more balanced than Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, and Monster Bash. That says a lot, I think. I guess so. Dennis will be a buyer for the Attack from Mars. No, the 2.0 kit. I mean, a strategy to do 2.0 kits for the other games is, yeah, it's fine. I think there's an audience for it. I love that they have mechanical features too, though. I think that's a nice thing. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully they're all as easy, if they do it, to install as Cactus was, because I do get a little concerned. You know, I just, I don't know. I'd have to see it. No, my only thing about it is I don't – I get – I mentioned this before with how they labeled, how they were selling the cactus kits. Saying that Lyman had a hand in all of them feels like you're trying to sell it on Lyman. And I'm uncomfortable with it. I'm uncomfortable with it. Yeah, we talked about that. Yes, so I don't want to regurgitate it. But this being referenced that he was working with Monster Bash 1. Oh, by the way, maybe Medieval and Attack and maybe some other games that they didn't come out with. It's like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm with you. However, I would probably – I would do it with Attack. But if the truth is the truth – How much of it would really be his work is the thing. I just feel like it doesn't feel like it would be much, but it feels like they're trying to say it is. That's where I'm worried that that's going. Yeah, I can see the divide there. I'm on the other side of that line saying that given the information and him conceptualizing pretty much the majority of all of these enhancement things, even the conceptualization alone to me is enough to market a significant Lyman piece. and while I probably wouldn't call it the Lyman kit, that feels a bit overdone. But if it is true that the genius that is Lyman, she's worked on this and the ideas that we're seeing, playing, and feeling are his ideas, I'm not going to shy away from that either. It absolutely is almost like a legacy thing. Like he continues on his genius even after death. So I don't know. I think it's an awesome thing, And I'm glad that they took the years to do it because CGC takes forever to do anything. So I'm glad that they put in the time prior to our launch. I did like how you said it would be a kit every five years because that is the most realistic thing about it. No, I'm not. If you guys want to see how to install, if you have a kit coming, all you've got to do is go to Flip N Out Pinball's YouTube channel. Jill did an install video. And it's not bad at all. I had to edit it. And I think it's going to take you shorter time to install than it did me editing that video. Why doesn't Joel edit his own videos? I can answer that for you. Well, I was asking you. I'm not asking Joel. What would Joel's answer be? I don't care what his answer would be. I want to know why you're doing it. Because I'm a control freak. That was my fear. Yep. That's why. I don't know. Medieval Madness Merlin Edition starting to ship this week as well. Exciting stuff. When is yours coming I think this week we have a batch coming Are you going to have Joel stream it We might I think that might be a good idea Why doesn't Joel get to pick what he streams? Because I'm a control freak. Okay. That's what I thought. No, he does sometimes. I think he was suggesting if Medieval's not here, maybe King Kong again. Yeah, he gets to have a suggestion. He gets to have a suggestion. I'm the one that pays hundreds of dollars I'm not saying it's wrong Zach I'm not saying it's wrong and shipping yeah bring up the shipping Zach if you wanted Joel to stream a let's say I don't know Venom Pro and you accidentally sent him a Venom Premium would he send it back or would he be like we're streaming Venom Premium Like the state of Indiana indicates that this is now my property. Yep. Once it hits my basement. If it was on the main floor. Once it's unboxed, that's the rule in Indiana. Jeez Louise. Play mechanics, Josh Sharpe, he's the, I think, VP of, what is he, VP of play mechanics? Something like that. CFO? I can't keep them in like Raw Thrills and all that. It's the same thing. They're all the same. Blue Steel, Madden, Play Mechanics, Robert. It's the same thing. Eugene Jarvis kind of owned all of them. But they're different teams. But Play Mechanics is technically what he works for. They're the ones that technically came out with Pulp Fiction. And it was manufactured and in collaboration with Chicago Gaming Company because Doug Dubit did do a lot of the engineering and the toppers and stuff like that. But they are working on another pinball machine. Oh, yes. But they are in no way in a rush to bring it to market. Nope. They don't – because they know. They know how long it takes, and I think they want CGC to do it again. They weren't in a rush to build them. Yeah. So they're kind of hands-off with the production of that. That's CGC. So they said, yeah, I'm sure we're working on something. Maybe they should have had American Pinball build it. Orbit. I mean, Orbit Games. Orbit. Powered by Orbit Games. Turner Pinball. I don't think Turner Pinball is powered by Orbit Games. No. Did you know that Turner Pinball is now shipping Merlin's Arcade? Merlin! Yes, you just said that. Yeah, it's shipping, and we had a couple ship out last week. What I didn't know is that they put out new code for Ninja Eclipse. Isn't that cool? Nice. Nicely done. And Kerry Hardy, the YouTuber in Pinball, did a tour of the place a week or so ago, so go check that out. Kerry Hardy also visited Barrels of Fun Pinball. Why is he visiting everyone? Texas. Oh, yes. Sure. They are all in Texas. Yeah. Did he also tour Multimorphic? They're in Texas. I think he did. Wow. The devil went down to Texas. He was looking for it. Or it was Georgia. It was Georgia, but you had to change it. Who went to Texas then? You had to change it. I know, but who went to Texas, I wonder? Kerry, apparently. Kerry went down to Texas. He was looking for a factory to shoot. So go check those videos out. They did show off at Barrels of Fun the accessory shooter rod for Doom. And I think they discussed some in-lane, it's like a kit, an accessory kit you could buy, molded in-lane stuff. I've seen it. 2.0 kit? Maybe. Doom Part 2. I'm ready for the topper. Let's get some topper action going. Speaking of Orbit Games, American Pinball new GTF, or sorry, GTF code. Really? Yeah. Question mark. Why? Not why. I could kind of get. How? I don't know. I don't know. How did it happen? I don't know, but it's there. Contracts had to be honored. Do you think that? Yeah, maybe. Isn't there a coder under contract? So maybe he's still, you know, he'd been paid to do a certain maybe amount of work. And so if he had it, he finished it. I don't know. Do you think historically Gottlieb Premier was a stronger company than American Pinball? A stronger showing for that subset of Gottlieb, the later years of Gottlieb? So Premier, do you just mean like Premier as of when they became Premier? I guess, what do you mean by stronger? Let's go DMD, the DMD Gottlieb games. Do you think that was a stronger impact on the hobby of pinball than American pinball's entirety of what they were able to bring to market? Yes, but it's a – the comparison – Yeah, hard to compare. Well, we need to – I feel we need to qualify it only because Gottlieb was able to operate in an arcade era. They were able to sell games because of that. Tons of units, tons of units. And obviously pinball was just – there were more sales in general back then than there are now. The prices were different. There was a different market. They weren't targeted to homes. And so because of that, Gottlieb Premier even, even in the DMD era, even with all the damage that happened when they didn't pivot quick enough to the licenses and the street-level experiment didn't go very well and they went back to full-featured games, they still had a significant market share. And it's important to note, though, American is in this boat in the same way, I guess, if they do what we think they're doing, what Amtron is doing with them is Gottlieb didn't go bankrupt. They shut down the business. They went out of business and they were just like, we're going to close up shop. But the reason why Gottlieb went out of business was not because the pinball wasn't making the money. They made money up until they closed it, just like Williams did. But Gottlieb tried to do what Williams did do successfully, which is get into gambling, slot machines. Gottlieb's move in that space sucked them dry. It didn't work out. And so that's where they lost all their money. And pinball wasn't successful enough to cover that impact, and so they shut down. That's my understanding. That's a nice historical context there. Thank you. Whereas American obviously was just – it's just pinball, and they were not good at it. They got worse at it over time. The Flying Dutchman said, hold my beer. Too many eggs. I mean, here's – you know, it's interesting. Maybe it would be a good Patreon topic maybe at some point if it's worth exploring. Maybe once the dust settles. It will honestly probably be covered by Silver Brawl Chronicles. Yeah, probably. But it's a – to me, without knowing all the nuance, I feel like they put all of their eggs in the GTF basket but didn't follow through. Could they have – I'm going to do a video game reference, so I apologize. But could they have No Man's Sky did? A video game which had a ton of hype. Sure. It crashed and burned when it came out. Norman Reedus, right? No, no. You're thinking of the one where he's got the baby installed in him. Yeah, the landing or rising. That's Death Stranding. No Man's Sky was an open world space exploration game. And they promised you the sun and the moon. And when it came out, there wasn't a lot to do in it. And people were really, really frustrated. The sun or the moon? There were some suns and moons. I don't know if you can visit them or not. But the game has been worked on ever since, and it is now seen as one of the best space exploration games. They recovered. It had a long tail. Didn't the Norman Reedus game do the same? Norman Reedus' game did well when it came out. Cyberpunk? That's a coach in my game. Maybe the Cyberpunk is what I'm thinking of. Right. Cyberpunk is a good example. They fixed it. they fixed it but that was a company that's by the company that did the witcher so they still had a whole ton of initial sales no man's sky it did okay initially like sales wise but word of mouth went really quick like they over promised on this game but they they made it right with gtf it seemed like their last effort was expo where they brought in all the actors for some reason like they didn't know how to make it right and like maybe like this code and stuff could be the making it right if they had stuck with it but then they so they they put all their eggs all their effort into gtf but i felt in the wrong places and then you followed it up with barbecue which was just like i still i still get so frustrated zach because i'm with it's like it's not like the worst game ever made but it's not a good game and it's a terrible theme it should have never been brought to me and and that they spent so much time developing it and you know they really i i really do feel the staff there meant it as a love letter to barry osler but it's like they got lost in their own world and it just it's like how we've had intros at times where it's too much of an inside joke but we don't let it go and we put it out there anyway the difference is this is free so it doesn't cost anyone anything but their time barbecue You cost the company. It is their Popeye. Come on now. It is their Popeye. Popeye is not the worst game that Williams made. It's not the worst WMD. It's not the worst DMV game. You could probably argue Gilligan's Island is a worse game than Popeye. But what he did in the European market, per Steve Ritchie, Williams never recovered. And that accelerated the downfall of the pinball division because after that happened, they ended up having to eat so much Croto that they had to drop the minimum. Distributors up until that point had to order minimums of all their games to stay a distributor. And Europe was like, we will walk away from you. You hear that? We will walk away from you. Let's do that. Can we not do that again? They say they do that. Popeye costs that model. Let's do minimum sales. No, that's the thing to know. Gottlieb, they even – even in the Premier era, they did the minimums too. I think Jersey Jack technically has minimums. I think American technically – I mean I think they do, but I don't think they enforce them. They should. Or they're so low that – So no, American Pinball was not as good as Premier. You could argue their games were more fun. Yeah, but that's hard to compare. Well, in part, I don't just mean deeper. I mean, Gottlieb, Premier Gottlieb, did parallel development, which I don't think anyone else has ever done. And it was the biggest downfall in a way. It's why no one loves a lot of the Gottlieb stuff. I still think the reason I brought it up, Dennis, because I still think that over time in 10 to 20 years, I think that even though Gottlieb games get a lot of hate, I still think they will be viewed more positively than the American pinball lineup. Well, there's just more to look at. And there was a lot of creativity. I mean, a lot of what people were loving about Jack Danger designs at Stern. I mean, X-Men, it's straight up taking stuff from Gottlieb. It's and and Foo Fighters had a lot of the mechanical aspects that I thought you could find on Gottlieb. Like Gottlieb designers were different and they because they were not the same designers as were at Bally Williams. You saw different stuff. It was the code that let them down. And the problem with the code wasn't that the coders were bad at Gottlieb. It was they were doing parallel development. They had to write the code while the layout was still being made. It was they didn't. So you had there was guessing. They only ever went back and patched code at Gottlieb if it would fry the game. it had to be, it couldn't be a broken rule. It had to be a, like this will cause a fire. They didn't invest money in doing patches because you had to send out chips. Yep. You had to send out the, the little EPROMs. Little crawlers. Yeah. Yeah. The only reason I brought this up, if you were, yeah. Why did you bring it up for the exclusive pinball show club member content this week at patrion.com slash the pinball show. So we're going to go back to the top five greatest pinball machines from each company. This time, Dennis is focusing on Gottlieb. Now, you haven't done a straight down the middle of your top five Gottliebs. So I'm going to join in on the fun. We're both going to give our top five Gottlieb games. And I can tell you number four is going to surprise even you, Dennis. Wow. Even you. I'm already surprised because I didn't know you liked any Gottlieb games. I can't say I've played all of them. No, there are a lot. There are a lot, and they're hard to find. People don't bring them to shows. They are. And we went to – what did we cut it off at? 1990. 1990. We'll do 1990. So we'll have some non-DMDs eligible. I want to jump in now. I think people – you guys should jump with us. Go to patreon.com slash the pinball show if you are not a follower. Even at the lowest level, you get this exclusive access and content. You also get some private-ish Discord conversations and group chats. And then depending on the level you get into, whether it's the Nordman or the Screaming Goat Club levels, you get all kinds of stuff. And it's a good way to support the show, and we very, very much appreciate it. So much so that if you see us at a show, we will thank you in person. Maybe even shake your hand. Maybe, if I have hand sanitizer. Slight kiss on the cheek? Who knows? We'll see how many drinks I'm drinking. We follow the Ron Hallett Jr. approach. Don't come up and hug. Don't touch the talent. I mean, without consent. I wish we had handlers. I just blow the whole Patreon money all on a handler. You know what? We're getting ready to hire Flip N Out Pinball, and I'm dreading it. But maybe that's one of the job duties. There is a YouTube – probably more than one. Maybe he's not a YouTuber. Maybe he's on Instagram. I don't know. I've only seen it referenced on Reddit, this guy. And all he does is go around and be a dick to people. And he – What? And he – no. And to get their reaction, he's just like up. He just like pushes through crowds and stuff. And he has a handler. He has a bodyguard because people – some people will react with, I'm going to punch you in the mouth. And he has gotten hit a few times where the bodyguard got distracted or whatnot because he's just – it's like – it's the strange – like trolling is not unusual. I mean YouTube, you get troll comments all the time, and there are people that do like those pranks and stuff that go too far. But someone who just literally goes around just being insufferable is his – so it's not a prank. He just goes around, and he's just really, really rude. It's in reference to us. Oh, just because he has a handler. But I don't know how much his handler bodyguard – I mean a bodyguard style handler is probably more than just a regular handler. Oh, okay. Because he got like a big guy because the goal is to intimidate them into not actually engaging with violence. Well, if you're interested in joining the Flip N Out Pinball team, email me, Zach, at FlippinOutPinball.com. Taking applications now. Yeah, we really are. It's not even a joke. I believe you, but I'm not going to apply. I can't afford you, remember? No. I know. I remember. I'm glad you've remembered. We have to thank some people, Dennis. We call them the screaming goats. What do you call a goat? We already – a baby goat? A kid? A kid. We need a screaming baby goat. Still thinking about buying a goat. We really don't. The number one complaint we still get is the goat is too loud. Or the – what? That's a screaming eagle. So everything you're obsessed with screaming creatures and their volume is too loud is a common thread on this show, be it YouTube or podcast. I tell you, when I was editing this video last couple of weeks ago, I just I always love editing when I'm smiling and laughing and me dropping those. Can't take a clip. Just I just can't. But before we get that was such a good pick. We will thank Rodney for always being a part of the Screaming Goats. Rodney, we need to see you again on a happy hour hangout. I think we've missed him the last couple of times. The Bobcat, thank you. Oh, shoot that fucker! You're special to us. Rob, you're special to us as well. Of course. And the Panther has not one, but two games headed his way. He didn't even know it was coming. He knew one was coming. I was like, hey, medieval madnesses are ready to ship. But the other one, I messaged him. I was like, hey, man, you ready for? And he was like, oh, crap. Yeah, absolutely. So you have a hell of a one-two punch there. Congratulations to Rob. Frank, thank you, Frank, for being our falcon. What do they call the falcon handler? A falconer? I think so. Oh, the falcon whisperer? I don't know if they really handle them or just literally hold a hand for them to land on. I feel like falcons are of their own mind in many ways. They have to have those protectors to cover their eyes. I read today that woodpeckers do actually get concussions doing that pecking. How do they know? Are they doing like CT scans? The most common response is it's very difficult to tell because the woodpecker is not a particularly intelligent bird in the first place. So it's like if it's got damage, it's hard to – I guess they scan them or something. Is this an fMRI for ants? You can't put the woodpecker into a cat scan. It will eat it. you're not even a dad but that was an excellent dad joke that's right that's that's where the panther's in there waiting waiting for his woodpecker treat meow thank you frank charlie thank you so much i'll ring your bell if you want me to ding dong and thank you charlie um i haven't charlie hasn't had a game for a while yeah i wonder if he's excited about star wars the star You know what? We're talking about Frank. Frank's got an oddball game coming to him. Oddball? Yeah. One that not many people have. Space hunt? I have to emphasize it so clearly. I feel stupid saying it. Hunt? There's a space hunter? Hunt. Charlie, thanks for being a part of the club. William, the dude. I like your style, dude. Thank you so much, dude, and all your dude-ness ways. The dude has games coming Dude always has games coming Dude's fucking righteous Love the dude Papa Adam Thank you Basha You are like Papa Thank you so much Adam Basha Basha All these little drops I just I think I get slap happy Because it's like towards the end of the edit Yeah And it becomes the heaviest part because you're doing all these drop-ins. Do you edit in chronological order? Yes. So on audio only when I do EGP, I edit in reverse. I edit from the end backwards. What? Like I start with the end of the episode and I go backwards. Oh, because you're like time-stamping stuff? I do. Yeah, I write down the time stamps of the edits while I record. It fucking blew my mind I like what is this 10 hours No I don like Twin Peaks It not the Red Room in Twin Peaks where we just going and everything talking backwards Instead of ums, you got muah, muah. No, it's like I got the timestamp, so I start at the end and I adjust all the timestamps. I wish I could timestamp and edit. You could. All it takes is an ink pen and a notepad. No, I edit every second. I'm a hard-working editor. All right. Where are we at? Papa. Faja. Yeah, so when I'm dropping in randomly, it'll be two minutes after that drop. I'll still throw in a Faja just so that the listeners pay attention. Faja. Because they skip this part. And that's why I don't allow anyone else to edit their tutorials. Because they won't say Faja enough. That doesn't make sense. Look, this is how – oh, man, I was about to drop some inside info there. I'm glad I didn't because that person would have been mad. But this is why when I edit stuff, I'm not the best at editing because I do something – in editing, I edit based on my own energy level and my own entertainment. So if things are getting stale for me, if something rings a bell when I'm editing, I drop something in there just to get my energy back up. It makes me laugh. Point being or an example would be that install video for Cactus Canyon remake upgrade kit. No reason to have any jokes really in there. And it's Joel presenting, so he's pretty professional. Everything, you know, this is what it is step by step. I still found it because I was getting kind of bored, but I still found little spots in there to drop just some really fun, some fun things. So you got to check that out. But it's just my own entertainment. It takes me longer, but, yeah, it gives me purpose. Just like the K I take. I better use my strong. Thank you, Brian. Sorry, I just think we had such a long discussion to us. I think it would surprise people how long we discussed giving people nicknames. Too long. We spent a really long time, but I'm really glad we did arrive on Caretaker. It feels like it would have been wrong to have gone with any of our other ideas, which at the time seemed very strong. I just feel bad for Brian because we've not met him in person. I just hope he doesn't resemble at all Chris Elliott. He's not one little baby. What if he did? What if he had like a polio hand or something? That would be horrible. I think, no, he either would have accepted it or he would have dropped his level after one episode. So you know you're at least tolerated because otherwise there would have been a revenge drop. Going for the polo, damn it. And then I'm out, you sons of bitches. The giblets. And that's the time of the year too, people. So if you haven't seen Scary Movie 2, do Brian a solid and see. I feel so bad. Everybody else likes strong animals, like falcons and panthers. Well, Charlie's a bell. Oh, that's true. R.I.P. the shaker motor. We lost him a while back. He hasn't come back yet. The Kaoteka. Man, love that. Over on Discord, we're talking about what Star Wars may or may not be. So we've been having fun over there. Happy Hour Hangout is going to be happening later on this month. So follow, like, and subscribe to the Pinball Show so that you get those updates on knowing when to jump. Yeah, probably latter half. And to close out the show, we're going to do none other than what the people want, what they yearn for. It's Pinball Market Trends. It's a Bobcat Techno Look! Nice and quick and dirty today. I like your style, dude. What's trending? It is what it is. The turning up this week is Joel's 50th. And that's quite simply because we cannot keep him in stock. I thought I overordered just so that we'd have enough in stock. That's been the hottest selling item the last two weeks, Joel's 50th. So much so that, again, you know me with the broken systems, and I get real sad because I can't figure out how to maximize business. We're out again. I think we have one left, but I don't want FOMO people, so I'll just say we're out. It does not seem like a sellout. You see what I did there? Right. But, yeah, we ordered an abundance of them, and Stern allocated, I'll say, a fair to decent amount. Never as much as I'd like. And they split the remainder of our order up for the December run. But we're out. So as a dealer, what the hell do I do from September, October, November? Like, what the hell kind of system is that, Dennis? I want to buy more, but I've got to wait until all the other dealers can figure out how to sell theirs? I mean, if only there were those mandatory minimums. My hands are tied. What am I doing? I'm a hard-working dealer. I'm going to go listen to that whole album. So Jaws 50th is turning up just because we sold them. They're gone. Damn it. But you can pre-order one for our December run. Do that. Just do that. it would be better to have one at Christmas anyway. No, I'm sorry. Also turning up this week is not necessarily Star Wars Fotha, Fall of the Empire. It is. But it's more so the trades that people are already doing for Star Wars. It just seems like every time a game comes out, especially a game that people don't know, they're like, I know I'm going to want it because it's Star Wars, but I know it's not like I need to pay $13,000 to add it into my collection. Here's a couple that I really don't play anymore. So they're trading. Training up is the trades towards Star Wars, Follow the Empire. So you'll see a lot of people doing that, which is welcome. It's fine as long as if I send you the wrong Star Wars, please don't keep it and claim it to be your own. But yeah, training up. Star Wars, Follow the Empire. Trades. What are you going to trade out there, viewer? What would you trade right now for a Star Wars Fall of the Empire? We'll take your shipping and all. I've got a Gottlieb collection for you. I've got a Buck Rogers and a Victory just waiting to – Victory. Victory will probably leave. I think I need just one Switch, but I might put a few more games in on it. I need the space. Poor Buck Rogers. He was hated ever since he landed in your garage. You never appreciate it. never really wanted him, but you wanted to fix him up. Buck Rogers, well, that was one where I did a purchase, a Craigslist purchase for Super Orbit, another Gottlieb game, which I really liked, but I've since sold. But the guy was moving, and so he and his wife had a – it was a package deal. I had to buy it with the arcade game Millipede. He was getting kicked out, getting divorced. They were moving back east or something. Oh, moving back east. Anyway, so I bought them. I mean, the pricing was great. It was pre-pandemic. It was still really good pricing. And one of the people I competitively played pinball with, he is a big arcade collector. And he and his wife love Millipede. So I straight up traded him for his Buck Rogers he didn't want anymore. Oh. I'm like, I don't care about Millipede, and he wasn't interested in keeping Buck Rogers. And I was like, I'll take it. Sure. Let's just swap it because I don't collect arcade games. And you've had it since then? Yeah. For one of my birthdays, my dad had BG Resto restore the back glass because I have the mirrored back glass. Just some of the blue was flaking, so it still has the mirroring in it. Yeah, actually, the play field is in really good shape. That Veritar gets really finicky to try and get right. But, yeah, I've just had it for years. I don't play it much. I don't care for the layout. We've been friends for long enough, though, because I remember you getting that game. But that's how. That's why. It wouldn't have been a game I would have bought. Buck Rogers wouldn't. But it's like, I don't want Millipede. And he did. And he had a pinball machine. And I'm like, I'll give it a try. I'll give it a go. I like it. Also turning up this week, it's got to be Mr. Popular. Turning up is Ray Tanzer. Ray Tanzer training up this week Who is he? Where is he? Why is he? People are wondering They're questioning And I don't know I think there's individuals out there Starting to really question Are we going to get a Ray Tanzer return? Or are we still going to stick with The fall of the Tanzer? Which one's it going to be? What if he's finishing Pokemon? see we'll see if the news outlets will run any of this repurpose the Freddy the Freddy Krueger face will be repurposed as Pikachu that was the sound of Pikachu's peeing out of the ball Pika coming to you oh my god that's good Ray Tanter turning up trending down this week is simply nothing. Want to know why? Listener, viewer, Creasler. Well, it's simple. This last couple of weeks, the last podcast for whatever reason, when I piss manufacturers off, I'm always surprised at what actually gets their dander up. Yeah, or gets their goat. Always surprised Because I'm like, really? It was that episode? I thought I was pretty tame in that episode But it goes to show you that Everybody that calls me a shill or a sellout You can keep calling me that But I get it from the other ends as well I had a couple manufacturers this week Not super happy with me And they voiced some Frustration? Yeah, they voiced it to me Which I do appreciate Let the record show Don't agree with them But I do appreciate the feedback. So I thought, you know what? I'll do a solid. I'll do a solid to those manufacturers out there. They got a little frustrated with old Zachy. And this week, this week alone, I'm going to give them a nice grace period. They get nothing trending down this week. Everything is fucking roses, butterflies, and babies. So shout out to those manufacturers that got a little quanky with me. And this week, you get a buy this week. and I'll leave you alone. Only to return in two weeks from now. No, I'll speak the truth whether that gets me in trouble or not. But I'll give you guys that and I just don't have much to trend down this week. Deal of the week this week. Dennis, it's Alien. Ripley. Ripley edition. Buy, buy, buy! Yeah, we got one in on trade. I'm tired of looking at it and it pisses me off because it came in and like one every three times when you boot it up it doesn't fully boot. annoying otherwise you're selling half a lemon or a third of a lemon this thing was uh it's like brim and it was like 20 plays maybe it doesn't work it works fine i'll trade you buck rogers for it you know the crazy thing is i list it and i um i of course tell people that that's what it I'll throw in Victory. Victory! I do want to play some Victory. And listed at super low, $69.99 for a brand new Alien, essentially. And come to find out, I had a lot of people in the comments section say, oh no, that's more a feature than anything, because they're like, mine does the same thing. And yeah, that's just pretty normal for Aliens. I'm like, Jesus Christ. So $69.99 Slash from that. Our listeners here at the Pinball Show deal of the week. $64.99. There's another $500 off. Let's buy, buy, buy! So that's $500 worth of having to reboot it a couple times. That's a deal, people. Pinball Bounty's still out there for Congo. I've actually got a full game room, so I don't really need much right now. Unless you have like a homeless-only South Park or Independence Day. As always, I'm just here to report the facts, not piss people off! Because numbers don't lie, and neither will I, for better or worse, here on Pinball Market Trends. Where can people catch you? If they want to reach me, they can always email a collectivegamerspodcast at gmail.com. You can get a hold of his handler. There will be no reaching for the Creasel. Get a hold of his handler at creaselhandler at gmail.com. You can reach us at thepinballshow at gmail.com. Sign up to Patreon, patreon.com slash thepinballshow. I'm telling you, it's super appreciated, and it helps out immensely for us to keep on firing this up and to continue giving you more and more each and every year, such as video format. Yeah, it's paying for this fancy software. This is a really cool studio thing you found. It does work. We're using the Riverside, and it's pricey, but it does work fairly well. And that comes because of contributors like yourself. So thank you. Straight down the middle, we're doing some really cool stuff. I'm full edit mode right now for Straight Down the Middle, so likely we'll not be seeing much until later this year. And you're going to see a lot. You're going to see a whole lot. Oh, fuck. Good stuff coming. Good stuff. Where was I? Straight down the middle. You were talking about editing and how after they email us and join our Patreon. I've got edit brain going right now. You're probably ready to say that the sponsor of the show is. Where's that elderly lady? I got some underwear for you, baby. Sponsor of the show is Flip N Out Pinball. When I buy my pinball shit, I buy from Flip N Out Pinball. From toppers, sharp blades, materials, I've got it figured out. Flip N Out Pinball, figured out. When I take a pinball, I think Flip N Out Pinball. Flip N Out Pinball, figured out. When I buy, buy, buy, I buy from Flip N Out Pinball. Buy, buy, buy. Product showcase is the Star Wars Fall of the Empire. Fote. You got FOMO for Fote? I already told you no. You will. We'll see. I still want a prequel game. Not going to lie. I still want the prequel game, but that's okay. Borg, bring us home. Daddy needs a vacation. Harry Potter, go get yourself a Potter. King Kong, pro, premium. I still have one LE left. Like, viewer, I'm telling you right now, if you do not have a King Kong LE, money back guarantee if you get it in your basement. By this time next year, you're going to be kicking yourself for not having that game. Don't pay over. Pay MSRP and free shipping. Jaws, 50th anniversary. I probably don't have that last one so pre-order for December but we do have regular premium and pros in stock ready to go Dune, a little game that could I'm looking forward to Expo so that people can play Dune keep your eye on that company that game it sounds like I'm trying to sell them and sure I am if you'd like to buy one but play that game and tell me I'm not wrong or tell me I'm wrong You can tell me I'm not wrong as well. You can tell my handler. How about that? Pre-owned games. Go to Flip N Out Pinball Facebook page, or you can follow me on Zmini at Pinside. I list all the games up there. We're working on the website to get them all up there as well. All the Stern games, all the JJP games, Chicago Gaming, you name it, minus Dutch. I think that's what we don't sell for, but other than that, they're allergic to money. See? I piss them off. I'm a hard working seller trade and program accessories, big bucks golden teas, ice cold beers toppers go follow Flip N Out Pinball on socials Joel's goal I gave him a goal 10,000 subscribers on Flip N Out Pinball YouTube isn't he about 7,500? he's not close he's doing way better than my wristwatches are That's stagnated. I can't get it. Every time I add viewers, I lose them. That's where Flip N Out Pinball is kind of – so we need it. I'm giving away shit to Australia. Like, come on, people. Help. Joel is working hard over there. He's a hardworking streamer. He's got tutorials. Now he's doing install videos. Do you want me to up the challenge factor? Like, hey, if you've already run a banner – won a banner from them, unsubscribe so that it makes it a more challenging battle. No, please. Oh, I thought you like – if he doesn't make it, you get something. So I was helping you out. I don't know what happens, but we want 10,000. He's doing some great work. I think we have a Jurassic Park tutorial coming up. But go check out that install video and my little editing fun. Flipping out Pinball Podcast, Ken and Greg, Episode 7, where they went on a haunted trip up to Benton, Wisconsin. Maybe I'll subscribe to that. I still haven't listened. It's good. It's good. It doesn't – it's a pinball podcast that doesn't take itself too seriously. That's what I like. Isn't that all of them? No, we take ourselves pretty seriously. We do, yeah. We're talking about handlers, Dennis. Come on. You were. I was talking about bodyguards for when we start making people want to punch us, which is apparently all the manufacturers whenever you make your little snarky remarks about – Teach these people something. Get the hell out of here. Actually, I don't know if it's a teaching factor, but here's what I want to know. Basically, because I think we're going to see Fall of the Empire here like the day after this episode comes out. So you have one day to email thepinballshow at gmail.com. I want to know, will this game, in your opinion, listener and viewer, have a 180 ramp? John Borg is the master of the 180 ramp. The 180 ramp on Munsters is the best 180 ramp in all of pinball. No other designer has matched him on the 180 ramp. So will he lean into his strength? I think no. But I want to know if you guys think he will do the 180 ramp. My follow-up question is, will we see a 180 ramp within the next six months that dethrones any of John Borg's 180 ramps? And always practice safe pinball. and stop putting 180 ramps in pinball machines. I do it. Ramp equivalent of a stand-up target. My FOMO for Star Wars will go up if there's not a 180 ramp. I hope it goes up or the satellite pit or something. Stop. I love you guys. See you. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: bf29f477-b7dd-4a7a-94af-92442c3b55d5*