# Episode 66 – Expo recap with Krystle Gemnich and Jeff Teolis

**Source:** Head2Head Pinball  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2018-10-22  
**Duration:** 127m 29s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.head2headpinball.com/2018/10/22/episode-66-expo-recap-with-krystle-gemnich-and-jeff-teolis/

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## Analysis

Head to Head Pinball hosts a live Expo recap with Krystle Gemmich and Jeff Teolis covering major announcements: Stern's Munsters confirmation, Chicago Gaming's Monster Bash remake ($6,000–$8,000 pricing), American Pinball's Oktoberfest reveal, and Deep Root's ambitious plan to release 5–7 games in 2019 at lower price points via direct shipping. Key discussion points include flipper consistency issues on remakes, Phantom Flip reception, pricing concerns, and the viability of manufacturer oversaturation in the market.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] John Borg confirmed Munsters is the next Stern game coming — _Overheard during Stern tour at Expo, speaker Jeff Teolis reports direct confirmation from designer_
- [HIGH] Monster Bash remake classic edition priced at $6,000 (vs. $6,500 for Attack from Mars classic) — _Jeff Teolis provides detailed pricing breakdown from Expo floor_
- [HIGH] Deep Root aims to release 5–7 games in 2019, more titles than all other companies combined — _J-Pop's public statement at Deep Root seminar, confirmed by multiple attendees_
- [MEDIUM] Deep Root plans direct shipping to customers rather than distributor network — _Robert Mueller statement at seminar, described as somewhat cryptic/uncertain implementation_
- [MEDIUM] Deep Root games will be single-model with variable pricing ($5,000–$15,000 range mentioned as example) — _Information from Deep Root seminar panel discussion, numbers given as illustrative examples_
- [MEDIUM] Oktoberfest call-outs are approximately 30% complete and currently placeholders — _Josh Kugler statement at American Pinball seminar, relayed by Jeff Teolis_
- [MEDIUM] Monster Bash remake features reanimated (not upscaled) Color DMD animations — _Jeff Teolis technical observation, somewhat speculative on reanimation claim_
- [HIGH] Mafia Pinball priced at $7,500 is considered overpriced; community consensus is $5,000 target — _Krystle Gemmich direct assessment and general consensus report_
- [HIGH] Centaur (Deep Root) is developing two titles and manufactures own circuit boards in-house — _Information from Deep Root seminar panel_
- [MEDIUM] Deep Root mysterious artwork in program is from one of three games: Razzo, Cosmic Gunfight, or Centipede — _Robert Mueller cryptic confirmation at seminar; artwork identity unconfirmed_

### Notable Quotes

> "Munsters is next."
> — **John Borg**, During Stern tour at Expo
> _Direct confirmation of next Stern title from designer, resolving speculation_

> "It's Joe Balzer's greatest hits game because it's got this instant side shot... stand-up targets... I'm missing something else."
> — **Raymond Davidson (quoted by Jeff Teolis)**, Expo floor observation
> _Analysis of Oktoberfest design as synthesis of Balzer's signature mechanics_

> "Next year, 2019, we will release more games than all other pinball companies combined."
> — **J-Pop (Deep Root)**, Deep Root seminar Friday
> _Ambitious market projection signaling Deep Root's growth strategy and market confidence_

> "If it had a shit layout, it doesn't matter how much code you put on it, it's always going to have a shit layout."
> — **Ryan C (Head to Head host)**, Discussion of Oktoberfest code development
> _Industry observation on playfield design primacy over code complexity_

> "Well, it's not authentic Oktoberfest... that kind of rock music isn't in Oktoberfest."
> — **German woman (quoted by Jeff Teolis)**, Expo interaction
> _Cultural critique of theme authenticity; notes creative licensing in pinball design_

> "I would pay $5,000 if it came with cannoli and a gun."
> — **Ryan C**, Mafia Pinball pricing discussion
> _Humorous commentary on Mafia theme and pricing disconnect_

> "They're fine, they're great. I think there's just been so much criticism about where's the topper, where's the topper."
> — **Ryan C (on toppers)**, Early discussion of Star Wars and Iron Maiden toppers
> _Meta-comment on community FOMO and topper expectations inflation_

> "I don't like that feature at all. Whether it was working or not, I'd rather be in control of it."
> — **Jeff Teolis (on Phantom Flip)**, Monster Bash remake feature discussion
> _Player control preference vs. automation; reflects broader design philosophy tension_

> "It's got a lot of stand-up targets, which is a Joe Balzer thing... Joe Balzer's greatest hits game."
> — **Jeff Teolis**, Oktoberfest playfield analysis
> _Designer signature recognition; Balzer's consistent mechanical vocabulary_

> "The games will not be like Pinball 2000... Robert Mueller kind of called it a gimmick."
> — **Jeff Teolis (reporting Deep Root seminar)**, Deep Root panel discussion
> _Deep Root distancing from 2000-era innovation model; ironic given J-Pop's prior involvement_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| Expo | event | Chicago Pinball Expo being discussed as relaunched event with new leadership; attendance and tournament participation strong; major announcement venue for Stern, American Pinball, and Deep Root |
| John Borg | person | Stern designer who verbally confirmed Munsters as next title during Expo tour |
| Stern Pinball | company | Announced Munsters via John Borg; released Monster Bash remake with new pricing and features |
| Chicago Gaming Company | company | Manufacturer of Monster Bash remake; 1,250 units production run; $6,000–$8,000 pricing |
| Monster Bash Remake | game | Chicago Gaming's heritage remake featuring LED coffin, RGB lockdown LEDs, improved Color DMD, larger screen, Van de Graaff generator effect; received positive reception |
| American Pinball | company | Revealed Oktoberfest at Expo with foreign ownership; brought mayor of Palatine for seminar; game has Joe Balzer signature mechanics; code ~30% complete with placeholder voice acting |
| Joe Balzer | person | Designer/coder of Oktoberfest; known for instant side shots, stand-up targets, magnetic captures, theme integration; 'greatest hits' design synthesis |
| Josh Kugler | person | American Pinball representative at Expo; presented Oktoberfest seminar; quoted on code completion percentage |
| Krystle Gemmich | person | Pinball content creator and roaming correspondent at Expo; attended three prior Expos; played multiple machines; provided gameplay and design feedback |
| Jeff Teolis | person | Pinball Profile podcast host; roaming correspondent at Expo; attendee of Deep Root and American Pinball seminars; provided detailed technical and gameplay analysis |
| Deep Root | company | New/emerging major pinball manufacturer announcing 5–7 games for 2019; plans direct shipping; single-model variable pricing; owned/led by J-Pop; aims to be cheaper than competitors |
| J-Pop (John Popadiuk) | person | Head of Deep Root; announced ambitious 2019 release plan; spoke at seminar with minimal applause noted; involved in Pinball 2000 gimmick development historically |
| Robert Mueller | person | Deep Root team member/co-founder; presented at Deep Root seminar; cryptically confirmed mysterious artwork related to Razzo, Cosmic Gunfight, or Centipede |
| Dennis Nordman | person | Deep Root team member; appeared at Deep Root seminar; received great applause per attendees |
| Centaur | company | Deep Root subsidiary/in-house manufacturer developing two titles; manufactures own surface-mount circuit boards in-house |
| Oktoberfest | game | American Pinball's latest release; German festival theme; received skeptical-to-positive reception; placeholders in voice acting; praised for theme integration and playfield design |
| Mafia Pinball | game | Unboxed and on show floor; priced at $7,500; community consensus pricing target $5,000; praised for sound and gameplay, criticized for price |
| Rob Burke | person | Mentioned as recognizing need for Expo growth and infrastructure improvements |
| Munsters | game | Next Stern Pinball title confirmed by John Borg; expected release in coming weeks |
| Ryan C | person | Co-host of Head to Head Pinball podcast; attended Expo; provided gameplay and technical commentary |

### Topics

- **Primary:** New game announcements and releases (Munsters, Monster Bash Remake, Oktoberfest, Deep Root pipeline), Pricing strategies and market saturation concerns, Deep Root's manufacturing strategy and direct-ship model
- **Secondary:** Playfield design, mechanics, and Joe Balzer's signature elements, Phantom Flip feature reception and player control preferences, Code development and voice acting completion for Oktoberfest, Expo logistics, event improvements, and tournament structure
- **Mentioned:** Licensing challenges (Godfather, Sopranos, etc.)

### Sentiment

**Mixed** (0.55) — Positive reception for Monster Bash Remake and Oktoberfest design/gameplay; skepticism about pricing ($7,500 Mafia, potential market saturation); cautious optimism about Deep Root's ambitious plans; concerns about distributor elimination and market viability of 5–7 concurrent releases

### Signals

- **[business_signal]** Deep Root's plan to release 5–7 games in 2019 raises market saturation and sustainability questions; hosts debate whether market can absorb volume and quality from competitor expansion (confidence: high) — Ryan C: 'When there's double the amount of pinballs... Is there enough to go around for everyone?' Discussion of 1995 Bally releasing 8–9 titles as historical precedent.
- **[community_signal]** American Pinball using local government (Mayor of Palatine) and company leadership visibility at seminar; emphasis on family business narrative and community positioning (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis: 'They brought the mayor out... I didn't really understand why they did it... but he came out and he said a few words about the company.'
- **[design_philosophy]** Joe Balzer's design approach characterized as synthesis of signature mechanics (instant side shots, stand-up targets, magnetic captures, theme integration); Oktoberfest demonstrates consistent design vocabulary (confidence: high) — Raymond Davidson quote relayed by Jeff: 'It's Joe Balzer's greatest hits game because it's got this instant side shot... stand-up targets...' Multiple corroborating observations.
- **[event_signal]** Chicago Expo positioning as relaunched event under new leadership; improvements include additional vendor hall; attendance lower than expected Friday due to seminar/vendor timing misalignment (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis suggests coordination improvement: 'You've got a 1 o'clock seminar on a Friday... vendor's booth isn't open until 6... I would coordinate that.'
- **[licensing_signal]** Jersey Jack unable to secure Godfather license due to actor likeness/rights complexity; licensing barriers remain significant for prestige IP despite manufacturer resources (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis: 'Jersey Jack about that last year when he came out to Flip Out... said that to get the entire license and the main assets... were incredibly difficult.'
- **[personnel_signal]** Deep Root assembled panel includes Jon Norris, Dennis Nordman, Steven Bowden, and new animator Quinn; significant talent consolidation for manufacturing launch (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis: 'Jon Norris, Dennis Nordman, and Steven Bowden all got great applause... they talked about what the goal is.'
- **[market_signal]** Chicago Gaming reducing Monster Bash classic edition to $6,000 (vs. $6,500 Attack from Mars) brings Stern-competitive pricing; strategic repositioning of heritage remake line (confidence: high) — Monster Bash classic $6,000, special/LE $8,000; Attack from Mars classic $6,500, special/LE $8,000. Jeff notes street-level parity with Stern Pros.
- **[announcement]** Stern confirms Munsters is next release following John Borg's direct statement at Expo tour (confidence: high) — Jeff Teolis: 'John Borg telling someone that Munsters is next. So that mystery, I guess, has now been solved straight from the horse's mouth.'
- **[product_strategy]** American Pinball's Oktoberfest code is approximately 30% complete with placeholder voice acting; extended development timeline likely (confidence: medium) — Josh Kugler statement that code is 'about 30% of what they want' with only six modes and placeholder animations/voice work
- **[product_concern]** Monster Bash Remake exhibits flipper consistency issues similar to Attack from Mars Remake; mechanical carryover from heritage design problematic (confidence: medium) — Jeff Teolis: 'The flippers are definitely different... flippers were never consistent.' Martin confirms same issue on Attack from Mars.
- **[sentiment_shift]** American Pinball's Oktoberfest overcame initial skepticism about Oktoberfest theme (beers/boobs/pretzels) through sophisticated execution; community perception shifted to appreciation (confidence: high) — Ryan C: 'The feedback I've seen about Oktoberfest is... a lot of people were really, really skeptical of the theme. And... I think they really won people over.'
- **[business_signal]** Deep Root adopting direct-ship model without distributor network to reduce costs; unclear how customer service and pre-purchase playability will be managed (confidence: medium) — Robert Mueller mentioned direct shipping at seminar. Jeff Teolis notes skepticism: 'If they're not out in location, how do you see it before you put that kind of money down?'

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## Transcript

 you're listening to the head-to-head people podcast find us on facebook email us at Welcome to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 66 and my name's Martin and with me... It's Ryan C and we're live from Expo at the moment, Marty. We've got two roaming reporters, correspondents. On the line we have Crystal Gemmich and Jeffrey Chiolis. How you going guys and girls? Hello, well... Howdy y'all. Worst American I've ever heard. And not a great Canadian one either. So let's talk about Expo. What was the first thing that you guys experienced when you got there? Oh, God. I experienced nothing. I experienced a boring seminar. And then I waited around for the game room to open up. Okay. So did you get there on Wednesday night or Thursday night? No, no. I was there Thursday. So we got there Thursday afternoon, super early. Okay. Yeah. And then I actually ended up running into Jeff Teolis and Steven Bowden. And, yeah, I hung out with those guys for a little while. I'm sure you had some good times as well. Yeah. There were some fireballs. Jeff, did you do the stencil? I didn't. I've done it in the past, too. I'm kind of a VIP. They give me one on my own, right? I don't mix and mingle with the general public. You know my style. Yeah, exactly. Or it's maybe the other way around. Anyway. No, I've been there before and did talk to a lot of people. Ron Hallett was there and some of the other people that we know. And they had a good time. It was a quick tour and not really getting a chance to see anything. Although I guess the Star Wars topper was shown, correct? Yeah. I mean, we just had a shot of that. We kind of did see that. What's everyone's thoughts on that? And also we got to see the Iron Maiden topper. Yeah, that's right. Does that look better in person? Because that looked a bit okay on pictures. maybe I don't know I'm not a topper guy I guess it's fine I'm not a bottom either no what do you say you are here's the thing they're fine they're great I think there's just been so much criticism about you know where's the topper where's the topper all that kind of garbage so I don't know how you were going to live up to the hype You know, I think it does. I think it looks cool. Still doesn't want to make me play Star Wars, but it looks all right. But, you know, like to me, the best topper that's come out in the last little while, I really like the Monster Bash remake, which is here at Expo, from those fine people there in Chicago. What is it called? Chicago Gaming. Yeah. Thank you. I didn't want to say the name wrong. And the other good topper is the Attack from Mars one, the remake. That's a great topper. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is. So we're going to go into all the details that we know that's happened at Expo. But I guess my question to you, as an overarching question, there was a lot of hype surrounding this particular Expo. It was considered the rebirth or relaunch. It was the passing of the two founders of Expo to form this. did it live up to the hype as being like the new version of Expo and trying to put it back on, I guess, everybody's conscience, away a bit from TPS, which has become the new big one? What are your thoughts overall? Crystal, you've been to a bunch. What do you think? I think that it's definitely a small improvement. I don't think that it's major as far as like the few Expos I've been. So I think I've been to the last three. The last one, I was here for a few days, so I saw all of that stuff and hearing all of these dudes talk about the good old days. And I think that it's starting to change a little bit slowly. It's definitely a little bit more significant as far as moving forward and trying to make things, I don't know, a little bit more interesting. and there's one extra hall, which is really cool, one extra room for, like, vendors and stuff, which kind of opens up the space, and I think that that's really great. And there's still that spirit of, like, so, like, the tournament play. I didn't play in the tournament. I know Jeff did, and I know that, like, the giant bracket is kind of a big part of this experience, and that's still here. And, you know, I mean, people, I think people are still here playing classics as far as I know. I'm not sure. But, yeah, I don't know. I think it's kind of hopeful in its growth, and I think that Rob recognizes that, and I think it's headed in the good direction. Well, I'll give you my first impressions, my first time here at the Chicago Expo, and maybe, Ryan, you can share. You know, when it's your first time, you have nothing to compare it to. But there was a lot of excitement. If you want to play in tournaments, there were a lot of tournaments. If you want to win games, there were several, including the winner of tomorrow's, well, I guess it will air by then, but the winner of the main tournament is going to win a new Stern machine. American Pinball was giving away a Houdini machine. That was pretty good. They had a draw for everyone who came in. They gave away a Deadpool machine. I believe there was another one. There was the Pong tournament. The one thing I would have liked to see, and it's not a complaint, it's just it was kind of, As you're walking around, and there are tournament players here, we're not always playing in tournaments, so there's not anything you can do. There's some seminars that are happening, and that's good, but I think the attendance might have been a little higher. Think about it. You've got a 1 o'clock seminar on a Friday. Well, the vendor's booth isn't open until 6, and not the free play area, that's open, but where the homebrew games are, that wasn't open until 6. I think I would coordinate that, especially on the Friday, and make, whenever you're opening the doors for whether it be a tournament or seminars, make sure the vendors have a chance to sell their stuff, and I think that would be the one area I would look at. Cool. Yeah. Back to the Stern tour, the bit of information that people got online, some people filmed it, and it was overheard that John Borg telling someone that Munsters is next. is next. So that mystery, I guess, has now been solved straight from the horse's mouth. So I guess we'll see. Months is in the next coming weeks. The other game that was kind of revealed, they didn't have a big unveiling. I guess it was just kind of shown when they could, and they apparently got permission to show it just hours before they did, was the Monster Bash remake. Now, we all know with the remakes, They've got the three different models, the bigger screen. The improvements on this one, I believe, and you guys can chime in, I think there's like an LED coffin. There's the plate on the alley, on the lockdown bar. The RGB LEDs, which change colour depending on which monsters you have active. Of course, the giant screen improves sound. And also, isn't there that Frankenstein sort of disc that's got the electrolysis in it, that one? Electrolysis? there's something that looks kind of like a Van der Graaf generator in the top left-hand corner. You can see it on the video I put on Pinball Profile. There's thousands of people that have already saw it because of obviously the large audience on that Superior podcast. Anyway, it is a great game. It shoots well. I didn't see any changes in the rules. It's very, very bright. It's good. It did remind me a little bit of Attack from Mars. When you play the remake of Attack from Mars, and Martin, I think you have done that, the flippers are definitely different. The one thing I like about this game, though, is the new Attack from Mars, the LEDs are not fun to be around. This one was okay. So that's a good improvement there. Yeah, you know, I actually played the Attack from Mars remake as recent as last night. So we're talking probably only 12 hours ago. And it was the same thing. I still felt that the flippers were never consistent. But that's just me. And you're saying that this is still a bit like that? It is a little bit like that. So that's the one area I wish, you know, like just if you're going to make a remake, make a remake. Don't change the flipper alignment. You're a good player. You've noticed it. I'm an amazing player. I noticed it. There's also some improvements on the animation on the DMV because I think there's a little bit, there's a little bit, so it's got the color DMV, like how the color DMVs look, but there's a little bit more depth to the animation. So they look a little bit more, like the animation pops a little bit more, and there's a lot more detail, which I think looks really fantastic. It actually looks like they've redone the animation. It's not like they've filled in pixels and made the resolution higher. It actually looks like they've reanimated it. I think that you might be right, or definitely improved and expanded on it, because the color DMD is a little bit bigger. So I don't know. Yeah, I think it looks great. I like the topper. Yeah, and in true rock star fashion, when you watch Dracula play guitar, it looks like he's toughed his pants a little bit. There was an extra pixel, that's all I'm saying. So Monster Bash Remake Alley, there's 1,250 units, so an extra 250 units more than Attack from Mars and Medical Madness. It is the same price. The special edition is the same price. 7,300. The big surprise is... The Monster Bash... Yeah? I'm sorry, you're saying that the Monster Bash remake is more expensive than... No, it's the same price. The special edition is the same price. The classic edition is $500 cheaper. So the classic edition is only $6,000, whereas the classic edition of Attack from Mars was $6,500. So they're entering... They're entering... Well, I mean, $500 cheaper brings it down to the street level price of STEM pros. So why not? Yeah, fair enough. And so what's the pricing of the limited edition? Limited edition is $8,000. Okay, and what was the tax? $8,000. So the limited edition and the special edition is the same. It's just a lower price on the classic edition. Okay, well, that's cool. All right, there you go. All right. So the next thing I'll be saying You know what, if you want the game It's a great game, there's no question about it It's gorgeous I mean it's going to play well, you're going to have some support You're probably going to pay the same price too If you want to buy a used one, let's be honest So if you want to buy a used one Which is obviously the one you're used to Or one that Has new parts and the playfield's not worn out What do you think? It depends on your preference Did you get to use Phantom Flip Jeff or Crystal? I never used it. I did not. No. Okay. I don't care about it, to be honest. Yeah, I don't like that feature at all. Whether it was working or not, I'd rather be in control of it. Like, if I'm going to brick the shot, I'd rather it's me that bricks the shot rather than the computer get it wrong. Okay? Yeah, yeah. It's a little bit, to me, I mean, I don't really, I'm not really paying attention to when it's activated. So, to me, I'm just sort of like, whatever. Oh, shit. Oh, it's on. Okay, I have to do it. Yeah, that's exactly right. It doesn't really... Mafia Pinball was unboxed and was on the floor there. It's $1,500 more expensive than a Monster Bash Classic Edition. Great value there. Jeff or Crystal, did you play it? Yes. Is it good? Do you like it? I do like it. I don't like it for $7,500. Yeah, that's the general consensus we're getting. Yeah, I think that the sound... Everything about it is great. The soundtrack sounds awesome. It shoots really well. It's a fun, like, single-level game. You know, the play field looks good. Like, they worked really hard on it, and I think they did a good job, but it's just the price point, it's just too much. What do you think it needs to be at to be successful? $5,000, $4,000? I would say probably $5,000. Okay. Okay. Well, I would pay $5,000 if it came with cannoli, and a gun. It did make me think so and I'd never thought of this before. Why doesn't somebody do Godfather? What a great... Listen, most people here in North America, I don't know what it's like in your criminal country, but most people, when that movie comes on, you cannot change the channel. When the Godfather's on, you stick and you watch it. Brian, you haven't seen it because you're born in 1992. We actually talked to Jersey Jack about that last year when he came out to flip out into the seminar and was talking about Godfather and just said that to get the entire license and the main assets of that were incredibly difficult so they gave up on it. That's too bad. And I think it's one of the actors, obviously, their likeness and their face and their video were making it really, I think, commercially unviable for them so they sort of moved off on from it. Okay, Martin. Let's say you can't get those likenesses, but you solve the story, and what if you did cartoons of the people or something like that? Would it still be Godfather? I mean, ideally you'd like to have, you know, Marlon Brando, Al Pacino, and all these great actors. But if you can't, and you can still make a great game, and it's still the story... Could you just imagine Pinside going off because you weren't able to do it, you know? Okay. I mean... But doesn't Zeta go off on everything? Sure. What about Sopranos? Isn't that, like... Yeah. That's kind of... I mean... Really, isn't it? A modern take on Godfather? Kind of, yeah. I think I would rather have Goodfellas. Yeah. Yes. You know what? Yeah. Not bad. Yeah, okay. I haven't seen it, obviously. That's because Martin doesn't watch movies. I mean, the home of Prohibition and Al Capone and stuff. Let's, you know, keep this down for some more gangsters for sure. Right. Well, then, so then let's do a really cool segue. Are you ready for it? So maybe what you're really talking about is almost like a pseudo-license, you know, a theme without actually having to pay the actors and the filmmakers. So let's talk about American Pinball, because they revealed finally Oktoberfest, were either of you at the seminar for that? I was, yes. What did you think? I thought it was weird that they brought the mayor of Palatine, I think was what it was. I didn't really understand why they brought him out. I mean, I think the idea was they were like, okay, it's a small family company, so we're going to bring the mayor out and he's going to talk about, you know, all of that stuff. The mayor of the town where American Pinball is, I didn't really understand why they did it, but he came out and he said a few words about the company. I don't know. The talk is online now on Pinball News. They did it, but the last thing that everyone saw was Jack Danger behind some curtain for 15 minutes. So we didn't actually see the seminar yet. Oh, so you didn't see it. Okay, okay. This is all news to us. Oh, my God, yeah. No, they started the seminar with the mayor, and he was there, and he said some words about the company, and then the president said some words about the company, and then they did the unveiling, I guess, though. They brought on his son, or they brought on the marketing director. He came on, said a bunch of nice words, and he was really pleasant around Expo, greeting a lot of people. They had a lot of machines for Houdini. They only had the three for Expo. And then they had Josh Ahn, who you've had on the program, including recently, and Joe Schober, who did some of the code. And Joe Balcer was there. He was kind of at the back, and Josh had said that he had drawn the short straw and had to talk. But it was noticed that Joe, the guy who made the game, was not at the front. But Joe did talk about it, and they did some photos and stuff. I played the game a few times, quite a few actually. It's a fun game. It's a very, very fun game. Raymond Davidson said, and he's got a good point, he goes, it's Joe Balcer's greatest hits game because it's got this instant side shot that's a very difficult shot. It's got the kind of thing, you know, the curtain that starts the different modes in Houdini. It's got that as well. It's got a lot of stand-ups, which is a Joe Balcer thing. I'm missing something else that he's got. But there were four really recognizable Joe Balcer kind of things. It's a good game. I like it better than Houdini. And I like Houdini, by the way. I do. I mean, yeah, they're tight shots, but they're both great games to look at. and I think it was very well received, and busy, busy, busy in the show, people playing it. Yep. Chris, yeah, we saw you on the stream, and apparently just like stars, you can kind of drop the flipper, let it hit the thing in the middle, and it bounces over to the other flipper. Is that right? I absolutely did not do that. I was trying, so what Ryan was talking about was I was trying to get cute and do a bad cat middle post pass, and it's failed me terribly because any time I see a middle post, I'm just like, oh, cool, I can pass to the other side. No, but it shoots really well, and I think two words that I've used a lot this weekend are theme integration, which is something I think that Joe does really, really well, and I think he did it super well with this game. I think it shoots super well. I just played it actually like 20 minutes ago, and there's this really great feed where if you're trapped up on the left flipper and you need to get it to the right and you can't post pass because it has those weird, like, rubber posts for the slings, you just do a loop pass, and then you can, you know, dead bounce off of the, from underneath the ramp and then to the right, and then it's just really, really satisfying combo shots. And, yeah, it's, I don't know, I like it a lot. Martin, there's a shot in there that you'd like because it's very similar to roller games. So you shoot the left orbit, and the mag nab, as it's called, puts it behind the spinner and then releases it. So roller game puts it right where you have to flip. One, two, three, flip. This one doesn't, but it pauses it, and then you get to make that tough shot. That was pretty cool, I thought. I think she actually counts. She says, eins, zwei, drei, and then you flip. I might be wrong, but I think I would not be surprised. So I'm curious, you know, as we always look forward, I'm wondering what the next game from American will be because, you know, you've got some foreign owners here that work for this company and own the company and have, you know, built two amazing games. The first game was based on a Hungarian magician. The second game is based on the biggest festival in Germany. So game number three is Strange Brew, the Canadian movie about Bob and Doug Stancy. Watch for that on American Pinball. Well, look, the feedback I've seen about Oktoberfest is, you know, a lot of people were really, really sceptical of the theme. And, you know, I think they really won people over and people now get it and they realise it's not about beers, boobs and pretzels in whichever order of priority. It is actually a festival. and a lot of the things that I've been hearing is people sort of saying it sort of harks back to, you know, Bally Williams of the heyday where they had a bit of humour, a lot of modes. People have sort of talked Roadshow as being sort of a game that comes to mind, I think mainly because of that green middle with all the different modes. But would you agree that they sort of have really been able to tell the story and people sort of go, yeah, okay, I now get Oktoberfest and why you've done this thing? well i thought it was extremely tasteful and it would have been very easy to you know do some things that uh you know were crude if you will um it was it was a lot of fun and there was a german woman here that i was talking to and i was asking her you had to have seen oktoberfest and she said yeah and i said i said i like it how do you feel she goes well it's not authentic oktoberfest and I said, well, I know they have the tents, I know they have this. The only things she said, and they were good points, she said, you know, that kind of rock music isn't in Oktoberfest. And I said, well, okay, I'm sure they took a little creative license because hearing the accordion all the time would remind you of a weird Val Yankovic concert, and it probably wouldn't work well for a pinball. And the other thing, too, that I did agree with was the character actor, who's a very good character actor, isn't German. and probably needs to be, but they did say those call-outs were just placeholders right now, which is fine. Yes. Yeah, they have a long way to go. They probably improved Houdini. Yeah. They picked up that great Sydney Jill. Completely transformed the game when they put that Aussie accent in. I think Josh said that it's about 30% of what they want. I'm not sure. I mean, there's only, I think, six modes in there and a couple of signs, so I guess we'll follow the progress in the next coming months to see where it leads. But the animations seem to be kind of Houdini style, which it doesn't annoy me too much, but when you're not playing it, I guess when you're watching a Jack Danger stream, you concentrate on everything versus just following the ball. So I think that needs to be improved a little bit. I know two people that want to order it. Our mate Lucas, Marty, and someone else said they have one on order. So that kind of surprised me. People are ordering it. Will enough people order it to satisfy the demand they expect? Who knows? People nitpick at anything they can to save themselves the money of buying a new pinball machine because there's so much choice out there, right? Right. But the good thing is, as you said, with code, that's all they need to do now is code. If it had a shit layout, it doesn't matter how much code you put on it, it's always going to have a shit layout. But as you said, and we saw on the stream and you guys have played it, it looks like it shoots really well and it feels good and it's got some innovation, some new sort of feel to it. Like, you kind of, I couldn't look at that and say, besides Simpsons, but really look at that and say, that reminds me of another machine. It kind of is, in typical Joe Belsher fashion, a new sort of design. if all they've got to do now is code, bring it on. That's it. I like the plunge into the scoop. That's a fun little feature. The only problem with that is because it's so open on the one side for it to enter in on the right, when you try to shoot the scoop from the left in a backhand or forward with the right flipper, because there's such strong flippers, it a lot of times kicks out. And it's not a tight scoop. It's just there needs to be some sort of, I don't know, shock absorbent so that it will hit it and then drop down as opposed to something hard that it just kicks it out right away. And they noticed that too. So that's the nice thing about having thousands of people play or thousands of games being played. They get to see these things and, okay, make a note of that, make a note of that. So I really can't find a flaw with the game. I think the few flaws that I heard were just kind of minor things that can be, you know, like Jeff was saying, just fixed, you know, after the fact. But, like, one of the effects was when the ball goes through the slings, there's a sound of glasses clinking, and it was really aggressive at first. I know. Like during the stream. That was a mistake, yeah. It was an upturn. That's exactly what it was. It was an upturn. Okay, I didn't know that. All right. But that subwoofer in it sounds amazing. Like, it's a loud. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's okay. That's Octoberfest. And we invite people to listen to episode 65. We did a pretty much a one-hour interview with Josh that kind of details the layout and their vision for the future and the progress of the software. So if you haven't listened to that already, we did have an extra episode during the week. Okay, Friday. That all happened on Thursday. That was literally the first day of Expo. So Friday, not too many things, but I guess the biggest seminar was the Deep Root seminar where we had everyone kind of on the panel, all the big names, Jay Pop, Barry Osler, Dennis Nordman, Robert Mueller. I guess me and Martin can talk about what we thought, but both of you were in the room, so what are your thoughts on the presentation? I was actually not in the room. I was at the pinball ice party when the Deep Root seminar was happening. So I actually heard about the Deep Roots seminar from Ryan. I didn't hear very much about it, but I think Jeff was there. Yeah, I was there. It was certainly very curious. You know, that was the one people wanted to see because, you know, you had the whole team there. And, you know, there were some things that were definitely noticed. You know, they first introduced Barry Ousser, a nice applause. Jay Pops said a few words. Silence. There was some silence, as you could imagine. You know, there wasn't any booms or cackles, but there was an applause. Everyone else talked. Quinn, the new, I guess, animator, if you will. Jon Norris, Dennis Nordman, and Steven Bowden all got great applause. And, you know, they talked about what the goal is. Obviously, TPF is going to be a major, major release for them. How many games? We don't know. it'll be neat to see what comes out because the one thing that I remember him saying was next year, 2019 we will release more games than all other pinball companies combined now I think when they talk about more titles I should say because Stern releases a premium in L.E. so more titles will come out from them so those are some pretty big wishes and we'll see if it comes through. But is there a market for it, do you think? Like, you know, let's say they come out and they say, you know, five different titles, because that's the number that I've been hearing is that they've got, you know, close to being able to release. I heard more. Yeah, okay. Well, let's just say it is five. But let's say between five and seven. I don't know. I heard five plus seven. No, who knows? 30. Who knows? But I don't know. So this will be really interesting to see. I mean, it's great to have another player in it, and it's great for them to come out saying that they've got the means to be able to become a major manufacturer. But is there the market for it? Well, it's... OK, people on Pinside have kind of done some digging because... And we talked about it with Dennis Nordman that in 1995, I think they released, like, eight or nine titles. and then someone went back as far as 1960-something and said Gottlieb did like 12 back then. But who knows? Let's just say it's like nine titles or something. You know, what effect does that have on the pinball industry? Because people are already, I guess, flooded with choice and there's almost too much choice at the moment that everything has to be a home run to make someone buy it. When there's double the amount of pinballs, I think some people, if they're able to produce it, obviously, and supply and make the demands. Is there enough to go around for everyone? So here are some points from the seminar quickly. They're still aiming to reveal at Texas Pinball Festival. The games will not be like Pinball 2000. Somebody asked that, and Robert Mueller kind of called it a gimmick, which is funny because, I mean, John Poplitek was on the panel, and I guess he was involved in making that gimmick back in the day. Playfields are made of wood. There was a talk about... He didn't answer the question. He was being a bit cryptic about it, but he kind of mentioned that they might be direct shipping for these things, and they think they can do a better job at servicing customers than having a distributor network where everyone... They just sell games to distributors, so that was a bit of a weird one, right? because I'm not sure how many calls you can answer during the day when Sally gets her balls stuck and doesn't know how to take off the glass. I don't know. You know what, that's interesting because the one good thing about having distributors is you can see it, you can touch it, you can play it. If they're not out in location, how do you see it before you put that kind of money down? So, you know, one of the goals they're trying to do is keep the costs down And obviously, if you have a distributor involved, there's money that goes out there. I don know if it means a larger profit for them or just cutting the middleman to keep the cost down but you still have to see that So I haven heard that I heard the rumors too that there might not be some distributors but I don't know how successful that would be. And I'm not saying it would or wouldn't. I don't know. I would like to be able to see something before I play it and buy it. The other information was there's one model for each machine, but there will be different prices for each machine. So one machine might be worth, say, $5,000, for example. Another machine might be $15,000. These are numbers that I'm making up. But for the same model, say they do Magic Girl, there won't be three versions of Magic Girl. Correct. They do plan on being cheaper than every other company they mentioned and I guess Homepin at the moment is the cheapest at about $5,000 or so. So it would be interesting if they can do that. What else? Centathon is working on two titles. They have their own surface mount technology to make their own boards in-house. And, yeah, that's about it. Did you see the photo in the program? Yeah, it was a bit of a weird, weird photo. Well, it is apparently artwork from one of the games, and Robert confirmed that. He said, what do people think? Somebody said Razzo. What do people think? Somebody said the cosmic gunfight. What do you think? Another person said Centipede. And he said, it's one of those three, and that's all I'll say. What's centipedes? Is that human centipedes? No. But I love that that's where your mind went to. No, centipede was an old 80s video game, wasn't that right? Yeah. I can tell you what was really interesting was not only did you have, obviously, you had Barry Osler and John Popatook there, but it was really good to see, well, obviously, one face that we already knew being Steven Bowden getting to introduce himself and talk about how he's going to code but it was also really interesting to be introduced to Quinn who obviously does the storyboarding and has a comic background and I really liked his approach and I think that he could add something to the overall presentation and themes of these games. What are your thoughts? I think the storyline could be good. I mean that's when you think of some of these classic games they have a little bit of a storyline online, not even classic games. Look at Dialed In, for example. That could be unique. And, again, a fresh face. One thing Steven Bowden said was, here's a bunch of people that are here. I can hardly wait to have everyone meet the rest of the staff because there are some really creative people there. So it sounded like there were some people that are new to pinball. And the last time I heard a couple of games that had new people in the pinball, they made some pretty decent games. and Eric with JJP and Pirates and certainly Scott Denisey with Spooky and TNA. So it's kind of good that you've got some new people learning from the old guard and some people out of all four of those designers have made classic, legendary games. So I'm excited. I'll tell you one other thing, too. I had some people online say a few things. Obviously, there was a Q&A period, right? and I was wondering, will anybody say anything to J-Pop? Has somebody lost some money? Well, I was sitting near Todd McCullough, a former NBA player, and he had some money that went to J-Pop that obviously he never got. And he got two games from a D-Group because he said, look, I invested the $10,000, and they're going to give him two games. I thought, Robert doesn't need to do that. That's kind of pretty cool. because it's not like when he got J-POP, he didn't acquire his liabilities. And I thought, okay, well, that's kind of neat. Now, what about the people that didn't get two games or are part of a class action lawsuit? That's their choice. You do one or the other, right? You can't have both. And if they lost their money, obviously, I hope they get it back. I guess the problem is for some people is that. The one thing, the last thing I'll say is, you know, here's this company that has had all these people employed for, what, seven, eight months? They have a facility. You know, they've been working on stuff, and they haven't asked for one dime from anybody. Robert Mueller is absolutely freaking loaded. He has got fat stacks in his DAX, I'm telling you now. Well, Martin, you've done a few Kickstarters, and I have been burned myself on buying something, whether it's eBay or something else. You know what? Fire beware. And if it happens to you, it's unfortunate, but you live and you learn from that. Have I ever done it again? No. Would I ever do it again? No. So, you know, we've all been there. Well, this is the whole thing, right, is that people are so desperate to know the deep root story. They want to know what games they've got. And Robert Mueller's like, you know what, we'll take our time and we'll release it. And he's in a position to do that because nobody has given them a cent. There is absolutely no obligation to anyone. They can do it when they're ready because they've not asked for any pre-order dollars. Well, I guess the underlying thing, though, is that they also hide John Papadiuk. John Papadiuk owes games to people. They're trying to build this kind of reputation like they're a reliable company, so people should take the deal. But some people are like, okay, well, you hire all these people, but we haven't seen anything, and they're not going to show anything. So it's a bit like, you know, which one's going to come first? So it's only a small amount of people. It's a lot of money, but there's only a small amount of people that were, I guess, affected relatively with the J-pop thing. Ryan, you're a smart guy. Here's the thing I noticed. There are, as you know, rightfully and understandably, a lot of people who are very concerned about J-pop because maybe they lost the money. And you hear a lot of comments from people that did lose money, but obviously, rightfully, don't like that kind of action that was taking place. they're all behind a keyboard because at this seminar where there were 200 plus people there was a question and answer period which I didn't think there was going to be because Robert was you know doing it himself and he was just talking to the people they threw it out and every person I put up a hand got to ask their question not one person said hey where's my money or hey um you know that really burned me why should I trust you nothing like that so yes A lot of people, though, haven't taken the deal. A lot of people are still proceeding with legal action against John Papadiuk. You get exposed to one or the other. You can't have both. I know. If you're going to buy two new games, if you're going to get two new games from Deep Root, you can't have the class action happen as well. You get one or the other. Yes, what I'm saying is some people want to proceed with the legal action because they haven't seen the gain from this company who hasn't produced anything yet. I'm not saying that one is right and one is wrong. I'm just saying that there are people out there that haven't taken the deal because they haven't seen anything. And I hope they get their money. I absolutely do. But you had an opportunity to get something of value. Yes, it's a bit of a leap of faith, but I'm starting to... You know, this isn't like Dutch or Highway, you know, or some of the other ones that have certainly been questionable. This is a company that hasn't asked for a dime in eight months. And I have some people, the one question I asked in the Q&A was I said, you know, I know some of the people on the panel very well, and you've left places you've lived all your lives to go and go down to Texas and even leave your career in the case of Steven Bowden, what, 16 years in the education? You left. You must have seen something that made you leave. And their eyes kind of popped up and just said, yeah, well, you know, it was good to be back in Timbuk for Barry Elser. And Steve was like, yeah, this was the easiest decision he ever made. That tells me something. And you know Steve, and I know Steve. That must mean there's something there. And it sounds to me like everything I've heard from him is that he's actually really, really happy with the work he's been doing as well. The feedback I've gotten from him just talking to him briefly about it, it sounds like he's really happy with the projects he's been taking on. And I think he's optimistic about it, which is really awesome. I don't know very much about everything, you know, all of the stuff you guys are talking about. So I don't really have a whole lot to say. But, I mean, I'm cautiously optimistic, I guess. My only concern is not even a concern because it's none of my business. I'm just excited to see what's coming out. But it is none of my business. Absolutely. So I'll wait at their pace. Yeah. That's exactly right. We are not in a position where we're really keen because, I don't know. I mean, we really do want another big player. You know, Stern's great. Yes. You know, but we just want another major manufacturer. But we want another major manufacturer that's trying to do something different, right? That's what Roger Sharp talked about when we interviewed him. Roger Sharp was like, people only really innovate when they have to. And if you don't have to, then there's no point in spending that money or taking those risks or trying to move things forward. is there a way for pinball forward in terms of manufacturing and innovation? I guess it's yet to be seen because we're still getting games that are very similar and better code-deck-wise, but it's still pretty much the same thing as the 1990s, right? It's not all that different, right? Yeah. Let me stand on the soapbox here for a second and just say something, okay? I would love every single company to do very well and succeed. American, Spooky, JJP, Stern, of course, and with Deep Root now coming in, because it's better for all of us. When JJP came out with Wizard of Oz, Stern went, uh-oh, we've got to step up our game. We're still the leader, but we have to do better. Look at that screen, look at this, that, and the game's got better, which is great for us as the players, as the collectors. It really stepped it up, and that's fine. If it's a good game and it costs more, you'll pay for it. That's fine. Yeah, but we want something different But not the P3 It was like, we want so much innovation But not that, but really some innovation Well Crystal, you sent me an interesting message today Moving on from Deep Root About Scott Danesi's new game You were pretty excited about that, Crystal Yes, what was it? Scott Danesi's Haunted House Party Yeah. Is that the show or is it being funny? No, they're trolling. They're totally trolling. It was a whole bit that they did when they did the seminar because it was Charlie goes, Oh, I didn't know you were showing this. Wait a minute. You didn't tell me you were going to show this. And then, you know, Scott puts up the information. He's talking about the second game that he's doing. And he basically just talked about the roles that he's taking on. And then, you know, he had a little fake kind of title thing, and it was Scott Danesi's. But from what I understand, it's just basically a code, their code name for what game number two is. Hey, Ryan, you were wondering, you know, there are only so many, and you're right, there are only so many people that buy new pinball machines. You're correct. But if the first person buying a game is an American game or a Deep Root game, and that's their first game they ever bought, do you not think they might look at other games, too, or are they going to be, oh, I'm only loyal to American, I'm only loyal to DeepRoot. No, they're going to be like, oh, let me try this, this. As you know, that kind of multiplies. So that's going to help, right? And that might bring new people into pinball. Maybe they like the team and that's the first one they do. They want to buy Houdini, they want to buy OctoPunk, they want to buy Keats. But in a small niche market like pinball, I think if someone with that much money enters the market and releases that many titles, with a big asterisk about if they can actually manufacture them, I think he said himself that he wants to shake up the market. Hey, last week, the This Week in Pinball podcast, Zach said that somebody has picked up the Scooby-Doo license. Is there any chat and any rumors at Expo about that? No, that's really strange, though. I just had a conversation with a friend who was very adamant about the fact that there should be a Doobie-Doo license because it's like the anniversary or something like that, I guess, like 50 years next year. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think there's a lot of titles that are coming out that are a little bit more family-friendly, like people talking about Willy Wonka coming out and, you know, like Oktoberfest is family-friendly and people are saying Toy Story and all these other things. Yeah, and I think that that's, I mean, that's pretty cool. That's like, that's kid-friendly, but it's also stuff that, you know, we all like. Isn't that hilarious what you just said? Oktoberfest is family-friendly. That's right. There's no boobs and there's no, yeah. I mean, it's whatever. It's colorful and it's interesting and there's great music and, you know, that's what they said. That's what they said when they were releasing it. They said, this is a family-friendly game and there's an option to make it, you know. Yeah, maybe a naughty mode later on. But let's talk about that with Scooby-Doo, Ryan, because, you know, you and I, we sort of had differing opinions when it comes to licenses of old shows, mainly because I grew up in the 80s. Can I get away with that, or do I have to admit 70s? And you grew up in the 80s and 90s. Scooby-Doo, how's that for a license for you? Yeah, I watched it as a kid. I don't mind Scooby-Doo. I like it more than Jetsons, but it's... Isn't it the same company, Hanna-Barbera or something, that owns the Jetsons? Yeah, Hanna-Barbera. They didn't let them do anything with the Jetsons in terms of code and stuff and the license restrictions. Was that what it was with Jetsons? Yeah. They wanted to make it simple. I thought that was it. Their vision was to make a simple game so they didn't need all that stuff. Well, maybe... The same thing with Star Wars. They wanted to make a simple game because they couldn't make it do what they want, right? That's not true. He went out there to try and make the most complicated game possible. That was the interview on Special Win Lit. He actually said he went into that game trying to make the most vast and epic and complicated game that's ever existed. He didn't use the word complicated. There's no way he would have used it. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said that. It was for a different point. I'm just now bringing it back into that one. But, you know, what he was saying is he wanted it to be an epic adventure rules-wise, meaning it wanted to be really deep. So it wasn't simple is really what I'm getting at. And then they had simple art and simple video. Martin and Ryan, I have a special treat for you Sure I know we just talked about it a couple minutes ago But if you have any questions About the new games From Deep Root May I present to you Steven Bowden, live in person No freaking way Hello, hello How you doing man? I'm doing pretty well The show is over, we just got kicked out On 12 midnight on Saturday So there is no No pretending about a Sunday on Expo this year. Everybody knows the deal. Sunday is just for the tournament. How did you go with your, I don't know, I'm assuming was your first time being on the other side of the panel at an Expo? It was strange for about 10 seconds. And then I just pretended I was just talking to anybody, you know, just talking to a few people. Just pretending I was talking to a picture or something. And it just happened to be, you know, a couple hundred people. I don't know how many were near, 100 or so. Steve, it was cool. It was great. One question I want to ask you, and if you can't answer, that's fine, but how do you... Probably not. Obviously, you're working on the rules and the structure for multiple games. Is that harder than you thought to make them all have their own unique flavor? Whereas usually, a coders and designers, like Lime and Cheeks has been working on Batman 66 for the last two years, but you're working on multiple games and more games than has ever been released apparently and maybe upwards of around 10. Is that a hard job for you to do or do you have years of backlogged software ideas in the back of your mind to help you with that? I have years of gameplay to help me with that. So whatever that counts for. So that's really what I can use to help me through this sprint I'll say. Have you hit the ground running or has it been a bit of a learning curve for you? I've hit the ground in a rocket ship and launched out into the sea, yeah. So more than running, I've hit the ground on a barbed wire and pushed down a hill. So you're not a coder, Steve, you're a rules guy. So is it kind of like what Keith Elwin did with Iron Maiden where you're telling someone this is the code structure and then they're going ahead and implementing it? Well, I'll cough once for yes and two for no. So when I don't cough at all, what does that mean? Okay, so... He's winking. Yeah, I'm winking and nodding. Okay. But we talked about it before that, you know, obviously you had a great career in education and decided to move down. Obviously, you're very happy with your decision. Yep. I'm extremely happy with my decision. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, as I said on stage, it's one of the best decisions I've made. And, yes, I've only been there for a little bit, and, sure, there's a honeymoon period. But, yeah, the only thing I was worried about, maybe if I got too steep into the hobby and maybe I get sick and tired of it, that's not going to happen. So I've been on stage. I'm playing pinball every day, and I'm not tired of it. I'm at the hotel on the ground talking to you guys after a tournament. So it's all right. So it's fine. And can I say something, too? One thing they said at the Deep Root seminar was one of the greatest things about Stephen being there is he tests every game. And we know he's one of the world's best players. So when these games come out, the shots are going to be good. You know there's not going to be any stupid shots. Steve won't have it. I've got to be able to play this game. So, yeah. And also, localized light shows. No blinding lights. You know, come on. Okay, well, the question on everyone's lips, Steve, is what do you think about a movable 40X multiplier? A movable 40X multiplier? Why are you moving it? Just keep it on the Death Star and play. What are you moving it for? You don't need to move it. Just put it on the big three and play. We saw you on the dead clip stream playing Oktoberfest. What's your initial thoughts on it? My initial thoughts on it is like It looks like it's a busy looking play field Until you look at it and then you can see that everything Is just labeled and so you can see The 14 tenths and everything come out Really clear so it will Be fun and Joe Schober's on it So I have confidence in it that it'll be a fun game And did you feel it flipped alright? Oh yeah The steep left ramp is definitely Like it's Shootable I don't know if it was because The flippers were extensively strong but yeah They're strong, so you'll hit everything. The combo ramp, like the side ramp, that's kind of hard to hit, but once you find it, it's there. And it's not like Houdini where it's better than tight but findable. It's regular and findable. So, you know, you're going to hit all the shots. The only shot that's really tight is the one on the not quite far right where it goes up and back toward you. That's a little tight, but once you find that, it's good, too. So, yeah, I had fun with it. We just had some fun with the split flipper. It was one-handed play where you set it on one hand, so you could just control it with your right hand. Yeah. And so, yeah, so we were doing like split flipper one-handed where we're both on one side of the game. Oh, wow. That was fun. So you could have your beer in your left hand and just control the game with your right hand, and you're fine. Cool, man. They had a Houdini tournament earlier where they had like, oh, it was like eight Houdinis on the line there. 20 bucks. for two entries I didn't even try I was like okay and yeah they gave away Andy Rosa won Andy Rosa won the Houdini yeah cause he had I think the match I was in was Andy it was Andy versus Todd McCullough who were in the semi-final and so yeah so Andy won congrats to that yep congrats to him but yeah just chilling out in the waning hours of Expo we just had somebody playing Deadpool Premium on the far end of the wall and we're just breaking everything down for the chill session. The only thing for tomorrow is just the tournament. So I don't know if I'm going to be doing any guerrilla media for the tournament tomorrow because there's no streaming set up. But we'll see how I feel and how my phone feels, how my phone battery feels. Right, Ryan? Yeah. We rely on it, man. All right, Steve. Thanks for joining us. All right. I'm going to pass you to Jeff Tillis. All right. See you. Thanks, man. See you, man. What a great guy, and he got a lot of applause for what he did in this Deep Root seminar, and we're all happy for him. And it's great to see all these guys who are great players. You know, Stern got it with Keith Elwin and Zach and Tim Sexton. Bowen's now with Spooky. Steve's with Deep Root. It's very, very exciting, and it really bodes well for pinball in the future. Sorry, fellas. I've got to go. My ride is here. I have to go. I'm sorry. I love you both. Okay, we hope to see you soon. What time is it there now, Jeff? It's very, very early. The last two nights I left at 4 a.m., 5 a.m., so it's only 1 right now. Oh, it's 1 o'clock in the morning. Fuck. Shit. But, you know, I am going to head out of here, so I'll say goodbye, and then you can say, Brian, what did we learn? In a British accent. Oh, sorry. Ryan, what did we learn? You called out a knife. There. Is that better? No, we're new better. I don't do voice. I don't do voices. No, that's all you do. You never do any voices, so. That's it. That's all I got. I got to go. Thank you, mate. Thank you, Will. Speak to you later. See you, guys. Bye, mate. See you. All right, so that was great to have Jeff and Crystal on, Marty. I've got one other person. And Steven Bowden. And Steven Bowden. How great was that? All of a sudden just walking past, and then we've got, you know, Pinball Royalty that does that Mr. B there? We're joined by a very own, another person that put their hand up for the roving reporting duties is Mr. Pinside Petey. Hey, Petey, how's Pimbalasville going? Well, are we friends now? Are we buddy-buddies or what? Yeah, we are, man. Give us the goss. I can see you're not cool enough to be here. It's pretty good. I mean, there's a lot of people and stuff, and I don't know. I give him a seven, but there are a lot of people. Oh, look at this guy. I've seen him before. I think he works at Stern. Tim Sexy. Hey, Tim, do you have a second? Yeah, sure. What's up? How's it going? You did that Deadpool game, right? Oh, yeah. I was a software engineer on Deadpool. I did a lot of work there. It was a great game, right? Yeah, I mean, it's pretty good, I guess. What do you like to work with? George and Tanya, they're great guys. You know, George, designer. He's been in the industry. Who the hell is George? I mean, what does Deadpool like to work with? Deadpool, you mean like the character Deadpool, the comic book? He's in a book, right? He's a man. What's he like to work with? It's an easy question. He's, um, you know, he's not real. He's a cartoon. He's drawn by a person. What? Yeah. No, no, he's real. I've seen him in Santa Claus. I've seen him in the movies, so he's real. The question I want to ask you is, who would win in a fight, Deadpool or Spider-Man? Spider-Man, easily. I mean, he's way stronger. What? I disagree I disagree how do you disagree uh Deadpool shot Katana hello yeah but Spider-Man is uh whips uh you don't seem to really know a lot about I'm not a fan of spiders okay I don't like spiders but you played the game right you played it it's okay but I the scores I do are too high and it's yeah it's alright I give it a seven I think you need to practice more to get the scores lower oh really you know what you need to do is fuck off I'm going to go talk to somebody else here. I know this guy. I've seen him before. Carl D'Python Anghelo. Hey, Carl, how are you? I'm doing all right. Petey, how are you? Aren't you that guy who does that card game, Critical Hit? Is that like magic? It's kind of like magic, I guess you could say. But it's pinball. You're using cards to modify the game, like getting yourself an extra ball or getting your friend an extra ball. A what? Your friends. You know, you've got those, right? Is there a solitaire version of Critical Hit? Uh, no, you need to play with other people or with your friends, like I said. Anyway, anyway, what's that tournament you do I've heard about, Indic? Uh, exactly, Indic. It's in Southern California in January, out of the snow and the sun, you know, people like to come out in the snow. Yeah, I'm not very good for the sun, so I don't know if I would do it, but anyway, thanks for coming by. Uh, is that it? Is that all you need, Petey? Uh, yeah, you can fuck off. There you have it. You know, it was a pretty good expo. I'd say it's all right, but I'm getting bobbed. Everyone wants my fucking autograph. You know, just beat it, okay? I'm done. See you later. And that was Pinside Pay Your Money. What did we learn? What did we learn? He's just as annoying as he's ever been. Anyway. So let's continue, Ryan. Let's do our recap. What else happened at expo that we haven't covered so far? I got bored and I was looking at some of the Expo talks. Some of them were interesting, some of them not very. George Gomez talk, I could listen to that guy talk all day. He talks about the development of Deadpool and he covered some of the stuff that we covered on our podcast and dove down a little bit deeper as well with the visual presentation. Sure. The bit that I don't think anyone's talking about and maybe people haven't watched it yet is that he said that Stern machines will have the ability to go online and next year, I believe, so sometime in 2019, and they will update. So he said there's no more stuffing around with USB sticks and SD cards. So there'll probably be a setting where you connect your Stern machine to your Wi-Fi network and you give it permission to update and then like at 2 o'clock in the morning or something, it'll start downloading the update and update itself. so that's exciting. He also said there's a whole range of stuff that comes after that, but that's the first thing they're going to do with their online capabilities, and this is something that I've talked to you about, Marnie, that I wish that pinball machines were online, simply because I just want an online leaderboard, kind of like what they do with the pinball arcades. They can run promotions and tournaments, and it's just, I don't know, it's like an online community, you know? Go on site, play the game. Whoever has the highest score in this location or Victoria, Australia, the Asia-Pacific region wins this. It just encourages more on-site play. Does it? Yeah, I hope so. I don't know. That's just my idea of what they could do. Do you have any suggestions, Marty, of what a machine could do online, or do you think it just needs to be this analogue thing? I don't care. I think if something happens, it's a bit of a bonus, but I'm not hanging out for it. And I know we've talked about it, and I know that you're keen to have that kind of functionality. Not really. Do you remember that Spanish company or whatever it was that had that cool thing that you could hook up to a certain amount of machines and we could have done it for Star Trek if we bought this movie? It was like a grand and a half or something. It was a lot of money. Do you remember? Yeah, we talked about it, yeah. Yeah. like I'm all excited about that even though it was super expensive like imagine if that stuff was built into the game yeah I don't know as long as the can's good I don't really care too much about all the the bells and whistles really um but if they've got okay if they've got the resources to do this that's additional then go for it but don't take resources when we still haven't got Batman 66 1.0 code. Okay. Well, this could be our question of the week. What would you like to see if the machine was taken online? Marty, when we ask the question of the week, we get like two answers. So I'm going to start a pin-side thread, I think, and we'll read out the responses in there. And you can also email if you want. But it's just ridiculous. People are driving and stuff, and they listen to us. No one's going to stop by the side of the road and say, I've got an email. I answer him. Him or right now. They just don't. They don't at all. I'm not making fun of our listeners, by the way. That's just my... That's exactly how they speak, though, of course. It's just my not-me voice. The other thing that George Gomez said was that, yes, code updates are coming, and the KISS code is right around the corner. And he said not in, like, a couple of weeks. Like, it sounded like it was in testing, and it'll come out. So that's exciting. Okay. Big question, though. Yes. Will the cities mean anything? I pretty sure they mentioned previously that it never will Yeah But people just don want to be stuck in modes and they You know what It going to be like Aerosmith It going to be like shoot one shot in the mode and then shoot the scoop to crank it up. I don't know. Hopefully it's not copy and paste. Because I like Kiss. I like listening to Kiss music. I like the layout more than Aerosmith. I think Kiss deserves to have good colors. Well, yeah. I like Aerosmith more than KISS because Aerosmith has got vastly superior code. But you're right. If they could take some of the things that they've been introducing, and we sort of talked about, like, with Guardians of the Galaxy, where some of the way that they're handling modes are what they've now put into Aerosmith in that new upgrade, or vice versa. If they could then start retrofitting that back into KISS, maybe it could turn into a good machine. Yeah, I'm just kind of visualizing both playfields side by side because they are very similar, but, I mean, Aerosmith has more things. It has more stand-ups. It has the smart missile button. The Alley and the Premium have that upper play field. So I guess there is more possibilities to have better code with Aerosmith, but, you know, we'll see. Ghostbusters update, everyone has to wait because basically they said the person that's working on Ghostbusters has been allocated to other jobs, I'm guessing that's Dwight Sullivan. Yeah, it doesn't really need much done, does it? Well, he said it was like, you know... Okay, I believe you did that. Yeah. Well, no, if you watch the talk, he actually says, like, let's be serious, like, that was one of the most co-complete games we made, and all that needs to be done is, like, one or two inserts that don't do much and a bit of balancing, I think. So I don't think people should expect some kind of radical changes to the game. yeah because code is not going to fix that game some people like it yeah no they do good on you yeah and now it has a color dnd we talked about it last week and it has a color dnd and I posted a little video on instagram there's some footage out there it looks really good man it looks incredibly good and I guess so it should because it was the last dnd and you know I think they they had all their efforts going into the dnd animation So add some colour to that. It looks great. Yeah. And we're here to announce that ColourDMD are officially sponsoring Head-to-Head Pinball. Enter the code HEADTOHEADPINBALL to receive 85% off your order. None of that's true. Please. No. Please do not get out of your car or stop your car right now. And we are not doing that. That's very irresponsible, right? No. There is never, ever any coupon codes to call D&D because they know there's no competition and their stuff is the best. So there's no need to discount anything. Okay. But there is. He's a competitor, isn't there? Who's that? Ah, don't... Nah. Really? What is it? Is it an open source effort or something? No, I don't know. It's just not very organized. You can't buy it, though. You have to buy these little bits and stuff and then you have to colorize it yourself. In the end, everyone that gets that... I can't remember. I'm probably wrong. Someone will probably email in and tell us we're wrong, but I don't think it's a super viable option. And, yeah, anyway. Did you watch any other talks, Marty? I didn't. I actually, well, the only one I did get to see, and we've already spoken about it, was the Deep Root one. By the time all the talks started showing themselves online, I was already back into work mode. Okay. the other one that I watched was I'm not sure why I watched this over other times just curious is the Chicago Pinball Hall of Fame talk with the pinball company and it was a bit interesting because they tried to actually buy the Las Vegas one and I think they had this kind of like handshake agreement with Tim Arnold and he said yes and then they kind of like flew back and then they announced they kind of backtracked on it and said no we're going to move so So they're going to open up their own one, and I believe, I could be wrong, but it's going to be at the mall in Chicago where level 257 is. They're going to have 150 machines. They don't have that many, so they have to get investors and have to buy them and acquire them. They're pretty much only interested in 90s game onwards. So it always sounds more like a showroom than a hall of fame per se. I mean, I guess the 80s were pretty iconic with pinball as well, right? I don't know. But I guess they just want to show people how cool pinball is and also sell the machines as well. But the guy, Nick, is pretty gung-ho about it and his wife. So, yeah. None of them all has 25 million visitors every year, Marnie. How many? 25 million visitors in that mall every year. Wow. So that's how much foot traffic there is. How many people that is compared to how many people visit Las Vegas, I don't know. So who was that? That was the pinball company. The guys who made the Jetsons. Oh, that's what I was going to say. Oh, my gosh. That's where the 150 machine is going to come from. Like 95 of them will be the Jetsons pinball machine. Because I did see some notes about that seminar. Did they actually talk about Jetsons at all in that seminar? No, surprisingly. I mean, I kind of like, I watched it in 2x speed and I just, you know, but he talks about like his website and he went through his whole like start to now. So he's like, I want to bridge the gap. But I'm pretty sure at no point he mentioned the Jeffins. I'm pretty sure he's the guy. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he is. Wow. Okay. Okay. Is it still for sale? Yeah, possibly. what I found weird is maybe it's just weird for me but he had this little segment where he talks about his like VIP customers the famous people that have bought pinball machines off him is that like are you meant to do that are you meant to like if I had a company Martin I'm like oh I've got really famous people that buy off me like maybe if I just told you in private but if I did a seminar would I like is that a breach of privacy to say confidentiality I don't know yeah and then like Kim Kardashian bought a pinball machine off you? Okay, wait a second. He didn't actually say that. There was just a picture of Kim Kardashian on his slide. Right. So, I don't know. Well, okay. So, it does look like Jetsons are still available, but there's actually been a price reduction. How much is it by his point? Don't tell me it's $1. No, it was $6,999. It's now $5,999. I think that's one of those things, and I used to do that on my website as well. Yeah, of course. It's fake. You get a new product, you're going to cost $100, you put $200, a big slash through and say it's now $100. It's like, oh my God, it's on sale. Yeah, it was always on sale. Yeah, it was never $7,000. Hey, it works. It works. Okay, that's great. So, anyway, there you go. All right. That's pretty much it from Pinball Expo. I think it seemed like a pretty fun time. Yeah. Thanks to Jeff Teolis and Crystal for joining us. She doesn't mention where Crystal's from. Crystal's from the Riftide podcast. She also has. Yes, we just said it's Crystal. Everyone knows her as Crystal. She's the household name now. But, yeah, look, you know, certainly the people that I spoke to that went there said it was much better than last year, and it's a sign of things to come. And, you know, this is the second expo that's been on since we've done the podcast, and I was, like, really excited this year. I was on Pinside, I was on Facebook, I was on YouTube. I was just trying to find any piece of information. I think previous years, there's actually been probably more people doing live streaming of some of the seminars. This one, they've all sort of happened later. Yeah, I mean, during the Deep Roots seminar, it was pretty much just Jeff Teolos on Facebook writing a comment every five minutes because it wasn't streamed. And Martin from... Martin from... Martin. Pimble. Martin from Pimble News. Man, that guy's a workhorse. Like, he was just... Like, go on his website and every single talk, there's comments about his pictures, and now he's put them up on YouTube. I don't think he actually played the single Pimble machine. I think he... No. Yeah, is he an employee? Like, yeah, he got inducted into the Pimble Hall of Fame, whatever they call it. But the... Yeah, that'll be us next year. Yeah, they just handed him that money. Marty's only been doing it for like 20 years or something. But yeah, that was definitely great to go on his website and check it all out. Awesome. What else is news in the pinball world, Ryan? Dialed In is receiving new codes. I think, yeah, it was at Expo as well. So I guess we're still talking about Expo. and the number one complaint about Daldin, besides the sincron shop being hard and the most important thing in the game, is multiball isn't worth that much. And if you can stack multiball with a mode, you're golden, right? That's where you get the big points and you've got the safety net there. If you rub your modes and drain the ball and multiball is ready, then you have to play. You can't start a mode. you have to play multiple on its own. So apparently in the new code that's in beta testing, that is now balanced out a bit more, so multiple is worth playing on its own. There's points that you have there. So right now, when you collect a SIM card, modes become more valuable. Is that true or false? I'm just trying to get my head around it. But come on, you know that. No, I know that. But is multiball not got the same sort of multiplier as well? 100% not. Just mode points. See, that's all you could do. Just have multiball now. Because what you've got to remember is, you know, once you've got a sim card, to get another sim card, you've got to be out of multiball. So you've got to then get back into multiball. And as you know, it gets increasingly more challenging to get into multiball. So, you know, you've got to get the two ramps and then they become timed and then there's one and then there's the other that's timed. So why not have the thing multiply as well? It does get very hard. I think you have to lock... The third or the fourth one, you have to lock three balls, possibly. And it's not a time. You have to combo the left and right ramp. That's right. And that's quite hard. And you can only change the order by hitting a sling or... I can't remember what it was, but... Yeah, maybe that should be the rule. Maybe not the multiply, Maybe just jackpots are worth more and more the second and the third and the fourth multiple you get into. But anyway, I trust that Keith and Ted know what they're doing and joke around with the team there. There's also a bunch of other multiples, like seed and multiple, and there's drone multiples worth more. Selfies are worth more. Everything besides the modes are worth more, I think. Everything's worth doing. Yeah, and look, I played it last night, and, you know, everything outside of modes was just there to extend your gameplay, but modes was absolutely where the points were. Hey, Marty. Yes. I'm getting a dialed in. Are you? How come? I'm just, I'm getting one. I think you should. Yes, Wednesday. Really? So you're actually just like that. Are you actually getting one on loan, because I know, you know, I have to clarify these things, or did you actually purchase a dialed in? Does it matter? I'm getting one. Okay. So I know the answer to that then. Okay, cool. Online. Yeah, obviously. Right, yeah. Hey, now, also, another thing that happened at Ekpo, going back there a little bit, was did you see that there's new artwork for Lexi Lightspeed on the P3 multimorphic platform? Yes. And I don't know... It looks better. I don't think it's really going to move units or anything, but it looks pretty good. It's very different. The first one, I actually quite liked the art style of the first one but it was taking itself too serious. This is actually really quite cartoony now. Yeah. Is that all we've got on that? Yeah, I don't really have an opinion besides it's new art. Cool. Yeah, right. Easy to install. Just send them out. Just slap them on. Is it magnetic or something? I think it's magnetic. Yeah, something like that, maybe. Whatever. All right. Marty, you love pin stadium lights. Do I? Do I? Yes. How do you know? Because you've got them on all your machines pretty much. And I've got a Ryan's belt on as well. Sure. Yeah. I like LEDs. Mr. Time Bandit, Michael, who we've had on our show before, he has an alien pimple machine, and he's the kind of guy who likes to fix stuff that's broken. And the GI on Alien, as you would have experienced, Marty, because you've streamed the machine once or twice. Yes, that's correct. The GI is pretty shit, right? You can't see the ball. It's so dark. Yeah, I mean, you've got that giant light box thing, so maybe that helps a little bit. So he's invented something, Marty. I'm not sure if you've seen the pictures of this or if I'm just talking here and you're listening. It's fine. You're talking and I'm listening. Keep going. Okay, he's invented something that... You know the slingshot switches? Of course I do. Yes. So he's invented something that sits right behind that, right? So it's very thin, and it's basically a light board that shines light. Kind of like pin savings, but not as high, right? And not LEDs that kind of shine up and a little bit outwards because of the convex dome that it has. that's literally shining towards the ball and a bit on your playfield as well. And you can put them behind other switches as well throughout the playfield, but it's like a new way now of lighting up your playfield. And I reached out to him and I got some coming in, so I will be reviewing those shortly because, yeah, Twilight Zone and Adam Stanley are extremely dark. They are. Well, now, speaking of Penn Stadium, Did you know that Penn Stadium got at Expo the award for best new mod and best exhibit? Is the new mod Orion's Belt? Probably. Yeah, well, for Penn Stadium slash Orion's Belt. I haven't seen a walkthrough yet, but I saw the plan of Expo. His booth area was huge. His game... No, it was... Only Stern had a bigger booth than him on paper. I don't know what it was like in real life, but it looked like he had a bigger booth than JGP, than American Penalty. Like, it was Stern, Ben Scott from Penn Stadium, and then everyone else. So, holy crap. Well, good for business. It's obviously doing well. Yeah. I'll have to check out that War Who video because everyone always does him. Okay, before we talk about some tournament results on the weekend from the big tournaments that happened, Marty, we've been talking about the Beatles and the Munsters for the last how many weeks? Which one's going to be first? This, this, that? And we literally just discussed it in this episode that it was overheard John Borg saying that Munsters is next. Well... What? Breaking news. There's another... Okay, it's a 50-50 coin toss because there's someone else now that's told me that Beatles is next and Munsters maybe that a couple of weeks afterwards and they want them both to be available to buy before Christmas. Okay. So not in the new year. If that's correct, who knows? But the exciting bit of news is that that price stuff that we're talking about Yep. is bullshit. Oh, no, really? Oh, wow. No, no, no. Please, knock me down. No. Not completely bullshit. Just the lowest level one, I think it will be between a pro and premium price. Okay? That's your entry level. That's significantly cheaper than 15,000 US. Yes. Well, you always said that. You can't sell that many units when it's that price. The other prices, big question mark over them. They might... Yeah. I can't really discuss it on air. I don't want to say it, but it might be true. And it might, yeah. A couple of big tournaments on the weekend, Marty. There was one at the Pinball Expo. Well, there's two at the Pinball Expo. There was the Power 100, which is basically the top 100 plays in the world with their results against the top 250, whatever. They played a Fair Strikes tournament at Josh Sharpe's house. In his basement, yeah. In his basement, yeah. And who won? Esha Lethkoff. Esha. So it was obviously, you know, It was the time for a Lefkoff to win, perhaps. Yes. Who won the main tournament at Expo? Well, it was Keith Alwyn versus Esh's dad, Adam. And thank you, Steve, for live streaming that. I caught the last ten minutes. Yeah, I was on Metallica. Metallica's so good to watch in a tournament. I don't care what anyone says. No, it really was. And it was good because they were on the last ball and, you know, there was a big climb that Adam had to get. I think Keith was maybe $105 million and he probably started on about $30 million. About $60, I think. Yeah, maybe. So it's only $50 million. Do you know what it was? This is where you see the real pros and their skill level is just their ability to recover. Outland saves were just phenomenal. I suppose you just thought, yeah, it's gone. No, it's not gone. he saved it just by a subtle slap to the cabinet that's it a double danger slap yeah the well that's the cool thing is that he had he had he could cash out and win but he was kind of going for other things in Crank it Up because he was so close he probably thought he could get it in bonus as well and you know I mean that's not a multiball so it's not like if he drains then he can do something else like that's the cool thing about Crank it Up like you drain the ball it's over but yeah he won So he wins a new Stern pinball machine. The other big tournament that was on in the southern hemisphere of the world at Dave Tech's house was the, what's it called, Southern Hemisphere Pinball Competition. What's it called? Pinball Championship. Yeah, pretty sure it is. Did you see, well, actually, I know you did because you shared it on our site, but just the amount of machines that he's got and just literally the who's who. How many machines were there? Like close to 100 machines, over 100 machines? Yeah, it's funny. When you go into match play and you go to any other tournament, it's like, you know, 100 games and 10 arenas, you know? Yeah. There's a million people playing like these 10 games. But for this game, this competition, it was like, you know, 70 or 80 people with 100 games. I know. More machines than people. So, yeah. I mean, that's going to turn into a big thing because that's going to go, it's going to alternate between New Zealand and Brisbane. What, Sydney? Brisbane. Sydney? Yeah. No, no, no. Sydney. Who's? What? Lee? I believe Lee's. Lee's house. That's what I heard. That's the latest rumour. Okay. That's exciting. Yeah. So, yeah, big bobbies to be had. Brett Goodwin came away with the win for the main tournament, I believe. There's a bunch of other tournaments that I didn't really keep track of, I think. Well, yeah, Daniel Peck won the women's comp, the Bells and Chimes. That's a friendly as well, I think. Yeah, so, well done. Before we head to Sun The Cup 100, just an update on our good friend Steve Govail and his monkey mod, Marty, the power of head-to-head pinball. He announced it, and within, I think, 12 hours or so, he'd already sold half, and there's probably only about 50 of these left, the monkey mod. And we know, because he is freaking good for it, if he says it's limited, it's limited. Well, he did say he... No, mate, he did say that he might make... No, I think it would be the same with the... Because this one's actually even more intricate, and if he's freaking hand-making these, well, he's a, you know, fool. But, you know, there's a lot of work for this kind of stuff as a side project, you know? What I'm saying is that basically Steve Gervais is now a millionaire, thanks to Head to Head Gimbal. So if you want to come on our show and talk about how awesome your product is. Yep. You know how we are, honestly. We are the masters of Win Schilling your products. That's why Pinscheggan has such a big booth, Marty. Anyway, shall we do stand the top 100? Well, before we do, I think there's something we need to talk about, Ryan. What's that? We need to talk about social media watch. Because, you know, on social media, sometimes you see some videos and they make you chuckle, you know. And then there's some videos that just make you scratch your head in amazement. And one of those videos happened this week, right? What was it? It was a picture that... I don't even know where it came from. It hasn't ended up on Pinside. I'm not sure if it's in Aussie or someone in the US. But someone took a video of the Thunderbirds ramp, the main ramp, and they get their index finger and they start poking the side of the ramp and it's almost as thin as, like, a plastic bag. You know what? Because the sound of it as well... Okay. Imagine you get, like, a box of chocolates Like, you know, fancy chocolates where they've got a tray inside where the chocolate fits in those. You know what I'm talking about? It's like a Cadbury box of chocolates or Ghislaine or Lindt dessert variety. Is it Ghislaine? I think they call it Ghoulien Seashells or Ghislaine Seashells? No, you know, I'm very cosmopolitan. But it's literally like as thin and it makes that same crackly noise. as a chocolate box liner. It was like as well, when you buy a bottle of water, and a couple of years ago, everyone went environmentally conscious, and all the bottles of water went like super thin, and they just felt like keeping your hand. And you know it's good for the environment, but you want to feel that like thick plastic so it doesn't crinkle in your hand. That's the sound that it made to me as well. I don't know if that's a prototype ramp or a real one, but it's just, no one wants to see that. No, that was all over social media, so... There you go. There's other stuff on social media, but... No, we just pick out the ones that make us laugh. Yeah. All right. So, now we can do Standard Top 100, and last week was... Wait, Marty, before you go last week, let's go one week before, where it was really close between Radical and whatever game that you had, NBA Fastbreak. I accidentally left that poll open, and Radical has overtaken NBA Fastbreak, so I would like to claim that win. No, you can't. Thank you, Ray. No, you can't. Because it's got to be within the week, right? And so it's done. You had your time. It's done. Those rules are not defined, Marty, but... They are. By the time we read it out, it's done. Okay. You get a week, guys. Okay. Okay. And even though I voted for myself, I still didn't help it. Last week, we had roller games with you and Steve against me as Gojira. I absolutely got smashed again 28% of the vote for me 72% to you and Steve Yeah, well truth be known, look, obviously I am a big fan of roller games and know that game so well that I could give it a good argument neither of them are you know, your triple A titles if we're really honest that's why it's the top 100 to 200 really and Godzilla is rare as anything so people don't know it And I think they know the last Godzilla movie was shit, so they kind of are basing it on that potentially. I don't know. Okay. So shall we do it again? You ready, Marty? I am ready. Let's do this. By the way, Marty, Deadpool Pinball debuted at number one. It's now slid all the way down to 19. I had a look to try and find Thunderbirds. Thunderbirds still needs six ratings to debut. And I want to see if we can make a debut at number one, because that's the path that every pinball machine takes on pinsides, right? It gets put at number one, and then it slides down to whatever position it belongs in. So let's get Thunderbirds rated, guys. Well, hey, Maiden, still at number five. That's a good showing. I don't think that's... yeah. I don't think it's going to slide too far down. No, I think that with 375 ratings, that's going to be pretty much top ten for a while. Okay. Please generate a number from 100 to 200. Okay. 109. Mousing around. Okay. I'll take that. Good. That's high up the list. It must be good, right? Sure. Please generate a number from 100 to 200. All right. 141. You can't remember the opera. Oh, yeah. This is a great game. You say that, Marty, for everything. Except for when you got Rob Zombie. When you got Rob Zombie, you just laughed. Okay. So I have to go first, right? You do. Mouse on Around. Amazing System 11 game designed by Ward Pemberton. And software by Jim Strompolis. from Polis. Just household names that everyone remembers. Just put them right there with Pat Lawler and Lyman Sheets because those guys just have had a long... Deep Root are about to hire them right now. No, Massing Around is a fun game. I've played it. The main strategy of the game, I believe, is to spell million and then score a million. It has nice ramps, nice super feel. I believe you only have two ramps unless a ramp... Sorry, two ramps. Two flippers. like every good System 11 game, good flow, quirky sounds, and quick of all times, mousing around, better than every single Data East game that ever came out. Your turn, Marty. Is that what you really think? Yes. Okay. Phantom of the Opera is a really interesting game. And yes, you know what? Overall, Data Easts have not aged well. And probably because they're limited rules. But what was really good about Phantom of the Opera was its presentation. The artwork was great. Scantily clad women. Who doesn't love scantily clad women, Ryan? Who? Everyone does. This screaming woman sends chills down your spine when she screams as it goes down the outlands. It's got the million shot up the ramp. It's got a really cool, I don't even know what it is. It's the organ. Who doesn't love an organ? If you want statutory women and big organs, then Data East, Phantom of the Opera, is the game for you. It's a great game. Love it. Is that the same chick on the back last twice? Just like she's sitting down on the chair and then right below her she's there again? She's very hot. They had to put her there twice and probably on the floor four or five times. Is that a guy hanging from his neck, like dead, on the face of the earth? Phantom of the Opera is not a frickin', you know, Wiggles thing. This is, you know, this is serious business. He is tormented. Horrible. He is. Like, he is. He's a tortured soul, and it is just so well portrayed in this pinball machine. Okay. Phantom of the Opera. Well, one thing I forgot to mention about Mouse and Around is that it has very bright and vibrant and fun art. And the guy's throwing a cigar like every... Every Belly Williams game of the time, which will surely be censored out. But have a look at the artwork on Phantom of the Opera. It's just that drab... Like, it's too detailed, right? It's like Data East. It's like... What's the game you had, Marty? The Data East game, Jurassic Park. It's not... It's like worse than Photoshop art. It's like when you draw something, but you draw it with, like, really lines and details, and it's just not very good. So, shitty art, average rules, it's just another theme game. Bally Williams had all the creativity, right? They're going to make a... What's Mouse Around About? It's about a mouse that just fucks around. Is that what you wrote? It's about a mouse that's around. It about a mouse that trying to learn how to spell million He trying to spell international rescue But, you know, that's not going to be up, bro. That's just like, hey, we've got to get a statement to slap it on our average game. And that's not going to be up before him. Okay, let me talk about Mouse and the Mound. So you talked about shitty artwork, right? Yeah. Let's talk about Mouse and the Mound's artwork. So you would have, when you were young, and you're probably still buying them for your children, colouring in books, right? Where you literally have a choice of three, maybe four colours to choose from to colour in an object that may have three, four, maybe possibly up to seven areas for you to colour in. Yeah, that is more detailed than the artwork from Mouse and Around. Just, like, somebody didn't even try with Mouse and Around And, I'm sorry, Pat McMahon, it was you But, you know, you also mentioned Ward Pemberton as well He's very well known for his games GoldenEye, Gilligan's Island, Riverboat Gambler and Dungeons and Dragons To name a couple, not to mention Hardbody Oh, you are on a fucking winner with Mouse and Around, Ryan oh shit it's paul faris that did the work for um phantom of the opera he's he's like working out for dick root i'm sorry the artwork is amazing on phantom the opera so we're it's not in it is no it's okay the artwork on paragon is pretty good because it's like that iconic thing that i know the opera it's like drab and you talk about you know the artwork being like a kid's coloring book well at least those four or five colors they use in mouse and around is is spread out whereas technically opera is like 90 red and it's drab it's so it's not drab it is it is you know what you know okay it's data James Rees of the time it was very intricate art and yes arguably you could say it probably hasn't dated well, but it was very iconic for its time. Okay. If I saw Mousing Around in someone's house, I would be like, oh, yeah, that's kind of cool. That's a cool, like, you know, piece of art there, and you're a cool guy. Wait, no, the place that I would expect to see Phantom of the Opera, Marty, is at, like, a granny's house where there's, like, candles and incense burning, and she collects, like, pottery and, like, little ornaments of, like, cows and all that kind of shit. It's drab. Now, then you'd start mousing around. You'd hit that reverse-y ramp thing five or six times. You'd go, oh, I'm fucking king of the world. Oh, there's nothing else to do in this machine. That's right. I guarantee next week when you tell everyone what your real opinions are, you'd be like, mouse around, choose all over it. Never has dippers that can get up to that million shot. Choose that. Mousing around is a terrible game. Okay. Phantom of the Opera is a much better game. I would... Honestly, if you had two side-by-side and said which one would you have, I would have Phantom of the Opera any day. I have had the chance to play Phantom of the Opera many times and I've never pressed start on it, buddy. You see, how can you possibly have an opinion? You haven't even played it. But then you have to... Because it's Slammers Hop 100. I have to pretend like I have an opinion. Anyway. Anyway, back to me. This is going really bad. I don't know anything about any of these games. I've got a massive advantage now because I play all the games. You've also been getting the better games. I'm pretty sure you're not going to win this time because Mouses around is actually a better game. I'm pretty sure of that. Okay, everybody, a vote for me is a vote against Ryan's arrogance. A vote for Ryan is a vote against Data East of the time. Just absolutely light years behind the creativity. So, yeah, which is the vote against Guns N' Roses. So, you know. Yeah, that's why they're remaking it, Marty. No. Well, that hasn't been confirmed. Yeah. It's wishful frickin' thinking. It has. It's coming, Marty. And I'll be coming when it comes. All right, this week in Pinball. Did we do anything together? We didn't really, did we? No, because you don't come to my tournaments anymore unless they're worth big fat whoppers. Yeah, well, this is the problem. Honestly, I have to win tournaments in order for it to make any difference. So... I get it, I get it. Yeah, so like your frenzy, like, I had to win it to come anywhere. I'd rather actually run it. Yeah, and it's good that you haven't been coming, and also, who else? Like, Luke Marble hasn't been coming, Richard Rose, Jordan Schroedt away. Like, the best players in Melbourne haven't been coming to some of my tournaments. They're still getting, I mean, I've got 24 or so people there. It's still good because new people are having personal bests and new people are winning every time. I don't think one person at my tournament twice, which is good. I used to be that guy. I used to be that guy that would turn up at a tournament and I'd see one of the big players turn up and I'd go, oh, well, I'm not going to win this then. so I totally get it by us not being there that it makes it more enjoyable for other people and that is actually more important than winning growing the pinball scene is far more important than winning but I'd fucking love it to win people listening at home like just just crossing their heads like what the fuck no when it comes when it comes to like a Melbourne match play or you know an Indisc or a freaking Pinberg yeah fucking get out of my way you fuckers I want to win that one but you know with those kinds of ones which are aimed at getting more people into the tournament. I don't want to sort of be the person that just wipes the floor and everyone just goes, oh, I'm not worthy. Because I used to be like that. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So I came, I was really bad. I came like eighth or ninth or something. And I can't play pinball lately, Marty. I can play not in the competition, but it was just funny that it was a month ago maybe, I was just like, yeah, I won two tournaments in a row and I'm not nervous anymore. And it's just like, it's not boring, I'm just like, it's easy now. I'm not, you know. But I've somehow lost that. I can't get my head in the game that... I think I'm rushing. I want to run efficient tournaments, and I want to play efficiently, but I can take as long as I want. I can sit there and trap up, and then post-pass to the other flipper. I can do that stuff. I'm just not doing it. Anyway, that was run by Greg G. And he's a guy who won Melbourne Match Play. So I've been doing some repairs this week on my Stern electronic games. The problem is every time I step into the room, I just start playing them instead of fixing them because, ah, Stars is so addictive. It is... Today, I tweaked Stars a little bit and made the spinners better and, you know, replaced some core sleeves and all that kind of stuff. But I think I played about 40 games of Stars, and I finally made Chanel play it, and it was hilarious because I increased the outlayings a bit more just to make it that extra bit more depressing and brutal. And she had one game on it and it absolutely destroyed her, and I'm like, okay, let's play a double game. She's like, no, no, I'll play a game of my own. And then she had another game that destroyed her, and she just kept on going and going, not for half an hour. She played about five games on it, which for her, she's never played five games of anything on any machine, so it's an addictive game. I also realise, Marty, that my Sea Witch has an incorrect part in it, and I've been complaining that the geometry on that game is wrong, and I still feel like it's not perfect, but the loops on the game were never repeatable on my pinball machine. No, they should be, yeah. so I have like a one way gate on my um on my sea witch so that when the ball comes around it hits the gate and it bounces out and by the time you get your flipper to it it's pretty much at the edge of the flipper it's in like an impossible loop a repeatable shot and every time I saw a picture of sea witch I was just like what's going on here it was like a bird's eye view of it like you looking down so I messaged Ryan Wenger and I was like, he's got a sea witch now, and I'm like, can you take a proper photo of this part here? And he did, and it was, it's not a, it's not that type of gate. It's a weird, fluffy gate where the bendy bit of metal opens up. Anyway, I asked Bruce where I can get it from. He said Cliffy sells it, and I already ordered it, and it's on its way. So I will be happy to finally get that, and it's stupid though, because the shot is not worth as much as going for drop targets, but I've been playing Sea Witch Wrong for the last, I don't know, year that I've had the game. Well, yeah, and because it's a game that everyone claims, you know, for its era has flow, and yours doesn't have flow because of precisely that reason, so... I don't think people say it has flow, it's just... They do. There's a rhythm to it, it's just like you get into this rhythm of dropping down drop target banks, and it's actually quite fun. That's about it. I mean, Quicksilver I've been playing as well. That needs an insane amount of work, but I'd rather play it in its shitty state than in its fix because it's so much fun. I already know that I'm going to like Quicksilver more than any other ones. So that's the fix for Meteor, but Quicksilver just has the coolest rules, the best layout, and the best sounds by far. Not even close. Awesome. There we go. I'm just going to talk about certain classic games in my This Week segment every week now. Well, you've got that many of them. You might as well. Oh, and I'm now selling my friend's Stern Grand Prix, and I've put a couple of games into it. This sounds really wanky, Marty, but since we're saying wanky things today... Since you are, yeah. Yeah. For some reason, I'm really good at that game, which doesn't make me like it that much more, but it shoots really well. Like, I almost get the same feeling... Obviously, there's no third slipper like dialed in, but I almost get the same feeling that I can just hit the shots really well. But unfortunately, that means I've got the wizard mode on board. You're done. I've seen the entire game, but it's a good game. It's not as bad. It's a bit underrated. Again, it's not a AAA title, but it's actually not bad. But what makes bad games bad games? That's the same conversation I tried to bring up when I was enjoying playing Big Bug Hunter. Like, if you can enjoy playing S.T.A.R.S. or, you know, Sea Witch or older games, why are the newer average games worse? Well, it's all about comparison. Because you are comparing a stern with a modern stern. You're not comparing a modern stern with an old stern. It's just mentally you know that they are from different eras. They should play different. So, but what's going to be really interesting then is Beatles, because if it is an old design with new components, you're now going to have this hybrid and you're not going to know what the fuck you're going to be doing. Yeah. So, whatever. What do you got to say? Well, so speaking of Ryan Wenger, that is Ryan Wenger from Comic Pinball, comicpinball.com.au. No, it's .com, isn't it? We're getting a bit too excited there. So, my Lord of the Rings LED kit arrived, right? Against your judgment, but I think you pretty much forced me. You gunned to my head. You made me get an install kit. And I got the OCD board, which is the board that you install so it allows the fading of LEDs. Yes. And guess what? You tried to get me to come over and I said, fuck off, I'm not coming over. No, I didn't actually even ask. I wasn't even dropping subtle hints. I actually installed the whole thing myself. So we're talking about the OCD board. So that I had to pull some freaking cables out the back, some ribbon cables, and I had to attach this bloody PCB board. It was all very technical, but the instructions were just so freaking easy. It was, yeah, that was the first thing I did. And I turned it back on. The LEDs that were already in it then weren't ghosting anymore. and they were fading and it looked really good. So then I decided, right, king of the world, right? I'm now going to just completely reinstall every single LED in the game. Now, how long would that take? I mean, it would take me about an hour or so. Or maybe less, depending on how many LEDs there are in the game. Okay. Let's assume that there's significantly more LEDs in this game than any other game. I was getting progress picture updates, Marty, and they were very, very far apart in time, I thought. Marty must have gone to watch a movie. He probably watched Avatar, you know, the remastered version, and went and watched Titanic and Lord of the Rings and then came back. Yeah. Did it really take you as long as the gap between the photos, Marty? How long do you think it took? Like five hours or something? Six. Six, okay. So, okay, this is... Okay, what you've got to remember is that I've only ever put LEDs in a machine once before, and that was on my roller games, and that was like three years ago, right? Yeah. So, you know, you've got this guide, and it's... The guide, okay, yes, that would slow you down, because I tried to do that once to a friend, and it's like I can't follow guides. I just have to take them out and put them in. I literally followed it step by step. And here's what happens. It's like this particular one is called, you know, KT-AX953ST-SMD, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, which bag is that? And I've got to look at it and I've got to, I've literally got to look at, you know, 20 or 30 different bags of Globes because I don't know what they are just by the name. and I'm going to go, okay, then I've got to check the play field map to determine where it goes. And I did that step by step, globe by globe. You did it, Marty. You did it. You achieved it. I bet you feel great, don't you? I feel really great. It looks amazing. I showed you a video for it. It looks great. The problem was, when it came to the GI, it was saying things that I didn't understand and there were, you know, really fancy LEDs that I just don't think should exist. And I don't know where they go. Like, one of them says, right, OK, it's the Bash Balrog LED. And I'm looking at... Oh, the flash of his inside is burning. Oh, well, you're ruining the story, right? No, because I then looked at the schematic and I've seen that it shows that it's a white box, number 29 or something, which means it's above the playfield. and I'm honestly looking at my machine going, there isn't one. There's no LED here. Maybe I didn't get one that had an LED. And I swear to you, I'm then Googling, you know, fast Balrog LED installation or location and I'm finding nothing. And I'm like, this went for honestly half an hour. I kid you not. I was going to message you, but I knew if I did, it would be really embarrassing. I was going to message Ryan Wang. I knew that if I did, it would be really embarrassing. And in the end, I went, you know, I'm going to turn on the machine and see what it does. And obviously, Balrog opened, and there's actually an LED inside. And I'm flat. No way am I opening that thing up. Yeah. It's just to make him light up a little bit more. So, yeah. It's not worth it. So, there were some of them that I just didn't do because I couldn't get to them. They were like, if I had to take off a ramp, no way. You don't need to take off any rounds to do it. Which one? There's a flasher underneath the sword. You probably can get to that from under... No, because it doesn't actually... It's not flush with the playfield. It actually sits in between the playfield and the sword. Go and have a look at yours. I couldn't even find it. I'm going right now. One second. Walking around the house. like kids are still awake. Yes. And I, again, this was another one of these ones that I was looking and looking, and in the end I went, you know what, maybe my machine doesn't have one. It's underneath the where? The sword? Under the sword. Yeah. Underneath the switches? Yes. So in between... So next to the switches, yeah. So where the sword release is, and the play field, there is a flasher that faces towards the trough. Okay. Ah, okay, yeah. You can probably get it from the side. Anyway, yeah, it's not worth... It was that kind of thing. So I ended up with about, I reckon, probably 12 LEDs left over that I don't know what to do with because... Anyway, so I was very proud of myself. I managed to do a full LED install, so that was great. And as I said earlier on, I streamed all in. Now, what was really interesting is I went over to a friend's place, Eric. Thanks, Eric. Hi, Eric. And you said to me after the stream, because this guy's got 35 machines, and he's pretty much got... We've talked about him before. He's got the Bally Williams Who's Who, right? All the great machines. You know, he's just got a new Metallica and a new ACDC. And of all those games, I chose to play Dialed In. Mainly because, you know, I figured it's what people would want to watch, but I kind of really hadn't played it a lot, because I've obviously never owned it and you never see one on location. You don't have one at the moment. There's one on location at the Argonaut. Yeah, I just can't get down there. Anyway, so I just wanted to play it. And just every time I play that game, I am reminded of two things. First of all, how buttery smooth those shots are. They feel so good. but the other thing and this is what I said to you I messaged you last night I said it is such a travesty that this machine has not sold in the numbers that it should it's sold pretty well it's the number one selling original theme of the last 20 years yeah out of how many five there's probably three if you yeah okay it's sold more than Magic Girl yeah and okay why the hell a tan TNA yeah it's sold more than TNA yeah sure uh America's Most Haunted it's sold more than that sure Rob Zombie that's an original thing right no it's a license um yeah no I don't know I feel as well like they should the layout is so fun that they should rethink that yeah if they're if they're struggling to release more than one game a year I don't think anyone's going to look at them and say, oh my god, Jersey Jack sucks, they're throwing in the towel, they're reusing dialed in for XXX thing, whatever it's going to be. I think they're going to be like, okay, well finally now I can buy this Puma machine. What it does affect though, I guess, is the ability to sell that machine to people that also have dialed in. Yeah. And, yeah. But, the people that were really inspired have bought it, right? Well, I think they can tweak it around a little bit. I mean, they did it for KISS and Aerosmith and for Metallica and Guardians of the Galaxy. I mean, that is, you know, 70%, 80% the same design, right? Yeah, fair enough. Anyway. I don't know. Yeah, just such a fun game to play. Cool. Glad for you to join the party, money. I remember that episode that you said that you would rather play Star Wars than Daldin. I have never said that. And you said you'd rather own it or rather have it because of the theme. You're not connected to the theme. And I'm, you know what, I'm now connected to it. It's just taken a while to grow on me. And, you know, that's the problem. That's the problem with, I guess it's probably original themes or the fact that Dialed In is a quirky original theme, right? It kind of is a bit quirky. It's a little bit left centre in that it's taken me a while and I'm not saying I'm Joe every person, but, you know, it took me a while to really get it and understand it. And even last night, I was freaking singing and dancing to the music. In fact, that mode where you've got to hit the stand-up targets has got my favourite bit of music, just letting you know. Stand-up targets? Which stand-up targets? You know, there's a mode where you've got to hit those stand-up targets. Okay, well, there's a couple. There's Meteor, where you have to hit the four stand-up targets. That's the one. Okay. The music is fantastic. I love it. Anyway, but I guess the point is that with this game, unless you've got access to one to play it constantly without having to put money in it, I think it's a bit of a sleeper. And that's probably a bit of a detriment to it because you don't get enough playing time on it to actually get hooked and then say, I want one. This is the problem of it being... Sleepers are great for people that want slightly cheaper pins, but it's not good for the company because, you know, certain philosophies, they sell a shitload of their pinball machines as fast as they can and then they move, like, where the hype is the best and they move on to the next. Whereas, by the time someone gets around to playing Daldin, like, everyone that played it at Expo, like, I actually had a message from someone saying, oh my gosh, I play Daldin Expo. I'm buying one. And I go, okay, you're buying one, you? He's like, no, because there's all these ones on the second-hand market that I can just, I can buy. So, JGP makes zero money off that. So that's the shitty thing is that you have to just make people, and that's very hard to do without a theme, right? Well, and unless you've got, and this is the whole thing. You know, I made a comment about P3 as well. You know, we all want innovation, but not that. We all want a, you know, original theme, but not that. You know what I mean? Like, it's a very risky move. You're playing with chance because you don't know whether people are really going to dig your theme because it might be something that's really cool to you but not to anyone else i mean you know octoberfest you know it's in that realm as well where you know they've had to make a game pretty much as far as i guess rules we'll see that as it comes but you know the way it looks and the flow, they've got to make that absolutely phenomenal to compensate for the fact that it's not a licensed thing. Circle back to Deep Root, Marty. Sure. Yeah. We're talking about dialed in, right, and the fact that if someone wants to buy one now, even in Melbourne, there's two available on the second-hand market, right, that you can get for about a grand and a half. I think there's one in Melbourne, one in Queensland. A grand and a half cheaper than you. so Deep Root saying they're going to release more pinball machines for sale than than any other pinball machine blah blah blah and a number of those are original themes original themes so what do you think happens there I mean unless they're able to ship in tremendous quantities first of all they're competing against themselves because there's never been that many machines available kind of at once but if they're tripping the games out by the time if someone's on some like waiting list forever unless they're locked into their position, kind of like Alice Cooper and TNA, then the second-hand market then becomes available. People eventually sell games because you're full, Marty. I'm full, plus my garage is full. I can't make any more room. Everyone that I know is pretty much at capacity. Eric went to his house yesterday. He's got like 30-something games and he designed that room for his building machines and now he's got it in the middle. one more. Yes, once the battery makes, so. Yep. Yeah. Surely that's not a good marketing strategy, right? Yeah, no, well, we don't, we don't know, really, obviously we don't know, but it is really interesting and this is the whole thing I was going to say, like, you know, Dennis Nordman, we had him on the show, he's a great guy and he has actually, you know, designed some great, beloved games, right? But, you know, we talk about Whitewater, He did Whitewater. Make sure I've got my right designers there. And if Whitewater was released today, no. No, of course not. No. Right. So what we've got to hope is that, you know, he's doing a theme, an original theme, that has broad appeal. Or if it has narrow appeal, it has narrow appeal to a vast audience. But what's the appeal of Dialed In? The appeal of Dialed In is nothing. like oh in my phone as a disaster no that's right it's a disaster pin and this is what I'm saying like it's it actually looks great it sounds great it shoots great but it's a disaster pin now Earthshaker was a disaster pin Whirlwind was a disaster pin they worked at the time not so now if they were released now people would be scratching their head going oh um where's my Led Zeppelin pinball machine you know what I mean like people just we are so conditioned now to it being a theme or not that you're at a massive disadvantage when you go for an unlicensed theme and you've just got to make sure that what you've got in your head is what people want without them knowing it yeah interesting times ahead for the pinball hobby because as we kind of mentioned before whether or not Deep Root are successful in launching at TPF next year, things are changing. The Haggis Pinball guys kind of were at my tournament, and I had a chat to them, and I'm not going to repeat everything that was kind of said, but, you know, the conversation kind of turned about like what the market wants at the moment, and I'm like, it's so hard to predict because you're not making a pinball machine that's coming out tomorrow. I can tell you what is hot right now and what I think is hot, but if you're making a machine for a year from now, there's a different flavor of the month then. And I think the people's, obviously, you know, band pins are very popular. Iron Maiden, Aerosmith, ACDC, Kiss, Metallica, they've all sold pretty well. And that's a formula that Stern, I don't think, is going to stop doing. I don't think they're going to say, oh, we've run out. Let's concentrate on other things now, right? They're going to keep on pumping out, you know. Any band that's willing to work with them, I'm pretty sure they're going to stick with that, right, Manny? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, I don't know. It's hard to predict what's going to happen in the coming years, but I guarantee it's not going to be the same as what happened in 2007 and 2018. There you go. Yeah. It does seem to sink weak in pinball money. It makes us think, when you've got a big event like Expo, it sort of makes you question where we are, where we're heading and because all Expo really is is about what's coming right that's all people are looking to is the future so the conversations I've been having with people have just been about speculating the future and you know Deep Root's one of those speculating comments that people talk about the more choice the better right Manny it's the power has shifted into our hands in terms of we if we don't like something we don't have to buy it and that sounds stupid but a couple of years ago it was Justin and maybe JTP that were making a pinball machine, but now we've got a million companies making machines at different prices, different quality. If you'd like your ramps to be paper thin, there's a pinball machine for you. Pinball is like a box of chocolates. Like it actually is now. The funny thing about it is that you have to spell international rescue, so that ramp has to get a lot of views. maybe if it was just like rescue or something, you'd think, okay, it's going to survive, but international rescue, it's the longest thing you ever have to spell in any of them on machines. I was three, maybe four letters away from spelling it, so... Wizard mode. Anyway. Shall we go to the mailbag? Because we've got some mail that we sort of have been meaning to read out, but we just sort of haven't, and now they're probably not going to be relevant, but let's read them out anyway. What do you reckon? Go for it. Okay, so the first one is from Dr John. He says, I was thinking about back boxless pinball machines. I know. Say that quickly. Back boxless pinball machines and how odd they would look. But I think they would actually work well. Imagine a games room where you have a row of machines, but above them you can have your own art hanging on the wall.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: c4a91a7d-8adc-4a37-9bda-342a328c78f4*