# Episode 405: Andy Bagwell – PAPA 21

**Source:** Pinball Profile  
**Type:** podcast_episode  
**Published:** 2024-09-04  
**Duration:** 33m 36s  
**Beat:** Pinball

**URL:** https://www.pinballprofile.com/episode-405-andy-bagwell-papa-21/

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## Analysis

Andy Bagwell discusses PAPA 21, a major pinball tournament returning to Chicago (September 5-8, 2024) at Hentarium in Schaumburg after being revived by Kevin Martin's blessing. The event features 72-person A-division playoffs, expanded classics and women's divisions, 30+ additional machines, 75 volunteers, and significant charity component supporting the 988 Suicide Crisis Line. Bagwell shares insights on tournament design philosophy, player engagement incentives, and his own journey from unknown player to top-15 ranked competitor.

### Key Claims

- [HIGH] PAPA 21 will have 72 players advancing to A-division playoffs, with additional B-division for players ranked 73-130 — _Direct statement by Andy Bagwell about tournament structure and his intentional design choice to increase playoff accessibility_
- [HIGH] SSS3 (Silver Bowl Super Social 3) ran until 3 a.m. Saturday due to higher player skill levels and unchanged game settings from smaller field — _Andy Bagwell's direct acknowledgment of mistake: 'we ended up being there until 3 a.m. on Saturday night this time. Huge mistake on my part. 100% my fault.'_
- [HIGH] Hentarium averages 80-90 players monthly for local tournament events, with recent monthly tournament drawing 107 players — _Bagwell states: 'We had 107 players show up for the monthly tournament last month just for a four-round monthly local event. We had 107 people, and we've been averaging about 80 to 90 players every month'_
- [HIGH] Stern Pinball and Jersey Jack Pinball are giving away machines for PAPA 21 with raffle format available to all attendees — _Bagwell: 'Stern actually had that idea when I talked to them about this and they said...we kind of want to...spread the wealth around a little bit and making it something where everybody had a chance to win'_
- [HIGH] 20% of PAPA 21 event proceeds go to 988 Suicide and Crisis Line, with separate raffle tickets at $150 each going 100% to foundation — _Bagwell: '20% of all proceeds go to that suicide foundation. But even with those people buying those additional tickets...100% of that is going directly to the 988 Foundation'_
- [HIGH] Andy Bagwell is ranked 15th in IFPA rankings and won both main and classic divisions at Pinball at the Zoo charity event — _Jeff Teolis: 'I have propelled to one of the best players in the world right now' and 'you won both the main and classic, so that's impressive' at Pinball at the Zoo_
- [HIGH] Bagwell's biggest competitive win was defeating Josh Sharp, DJ Real, and Dalton Eli in 2019 at Jack Danger's studio during Pinball Profile World Tour event — _Bagwell confirms: 'That was definitely easily my biggest win to date in my career back then...three or four-game final'_

### Notable Quotes

> "I do wear a lot of hats, Jeff. Hi, thanks for having me on, man."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, opening
> _Sets up discussion of Bagwell's multiple roles: player, TD, commentator, IFPA official_

> "I would not miss it. Okay. If you did say no, I would understand because it's not like just running any event at Hentarium...This is different. Extremely different."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, ~2:30
> _Emphasizes scale difference between PAPA 21 and previous events he's run_

> "I want to create a situation where not just 1 through 72...The players that are, if you have, let's say, 40 people make playoffs, well, that means that those 40 are obviously always engaged. Then you have 41 through...Those players kind of feel like they're kind of close, so they'll come back."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, ~25:00
> _Core philosophy on expanded playoff format and player incentivization—central theme of his event design_

> "It's like sports playoffs, Jeff. It's March Madness is what I want to create here...a player gets in here, some local player, an unknown player, scratches in at the 60th or the 50th spot or something, and they survive the big first round, and maybe they get hot, and they advance...suddenly this local player who nobody knows becomes another pinball celebrity."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, ~27:00
> _Articulates aspirational vision for PAPA 21 format to create new competitive narrative_

> "Stern actually had that idea...normally we give a game away for a big event like this and it goes to the winner...because this is a charity event we kind of want to spread the wealth around a little bit."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, ~35:00
> _Reveals Stern's initiative to democratize prizes at charity event, aligns with Bagwell's player-engagement philosophy_

> "I'm the unofficial arm of player incentive at the IFPA."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, ~35:30
> _Self-described role in advocating for player engagement and incentive structures_

> "Pinball was never the same to me...I could play the same pinball machine 50 times and win free games on it every time too. And I was always in love with it."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, ~31:00
> _Explains lifelong attraction to pinball's variability vs. video games_

> "You need to watch people that you think are better than you play pinball and then ask them questions about it afterwards...that's part of why I have this passion, Jeff, for like, I want to create a path for more people to become known in the pinball community."
> — **Andy Bagwell**, ~32:00
> _Articulates mentorship philosophy and connection to tournament design priorities_

### Entities

| Name | Type | Context |
|------|------|---------|
| PAPA 21 | event | Major pinball tournament revived in Chicago, September 5-8, 2024, at Hentarium. Features 72-player A-division playoffs, classics division, women's division, charity benefiting 988 Suicide Crisis Line |
| Andy Bagwell | person | Tournament director and player for PAPA 21; ranked 15th in IFPA; competitive pinball player and event organizer; described as approaching age 40; TD for multiple major events |
| Kevin Martin | person | Original PAPA founder/organizer who granted permission to revive PAPA name and provided support for PAPA 21 revival |
| Penny Epstein | person | Co-organizer of PAPA 21 alongside Andy Bagwell and Josh; involved in charity component for 988 Suicide Crisis Line |
| Hentarium | venue | Family Entertainment Center in Schaumburg, Illinois hosting PAPA 21; managed by Benji (Michael Benjamin); has 35 pinball machines, full restaurant, attached to Woodfield Mall; hosts monthly tournaments averaging 80-90 players |
| Woodfield Mall | venue | Major shopping mall in Schaumburg, Illinois adjacent to Hentarium; near O'Hare Airport and close to Pinball Expo venue; provides food court and shopping options for tournament attendees |
| Silver Bowl Super Social 3 (SSS3) | event | Previous tournament run by Andy Bagwell that ran until 3 a.m. due to increased player skill and unchanged game settings; lessons applied to PAPA 21 planning |
| Stern Pinball | company | Major pinball manufacturer providing machine for PAPA 21 raffle with democratized prize distribution approach |
| Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer providing machine for PAPA 21 raffle |
| 988 Suicide and Crisis Line | organization | Charity beneficiary of PAPA 21; receives 20% of event proceeds plus 100% of separate raffle ticket sales |
| Jeff Teolis | person | Host of Pinball Profile podcast; conducted this interview; won Pinball at the Zoo with Bagwell; previously ran Pinball Profile World Tour in 2019 |
| Josh Sharp | person | Co-founder of Pinball Super League at Hentarium with brother Zach; top competitive player; finalist in Bagwell's 2019 World Tour victory |
| Tom Graff | person | Streamer and commentator handling Fox City Pinball broadcast of PAPA 21 |
| Benji (Michael Benjamin) | person | General Manager of Hentarium; highly supportive of pinball community; grew venue from 5-7 machines to 35; hosted previous Expo pre-tournament and pre-party |
| Jack Danger | person | Pinball designer and content creator; hosted studio where Bagwell won 2019 Pinball Profile World Tour event |
| Dalton Eli | person | Competitive pinball player; Bagwell's 667 ranking opponent at time; finalist in 2019 Profile World Tour; became higher-skilled player over time |
| DJ Real | person | Competitive pinball player; finalist in Bagwell's 2019 Pinball Profile World Tour victory |
| Lyman | person | Pinball community figure; subject of charity event run by Bagwell and Penny Epstein prior to PAPA 21 |
| Pinball at the Zoo | event | Charity pinball event in Kalamazoo, Michigan; Bagwell won both main and classic divisions |
| Pinball Super League | organization | League at Hentarium founded by Josh and Zach Sharp; where Bagwell started competitive pinball play |
| InDisc | event | Major pinball tournament with 40-player playoff cutoff; Bagwell cites as well-run but notes accessibility concerns for mid-tier players |
| Pinburgh | event | Major pinball tournament; 2.0 reincarnation featured top-16 playoff cutoff, more restrictive than PAPA 21's 72 |

### Topics

- **Primary:** PAPA 21 tournament format and design, Player engagement and accessibility in competitive pinball, Tournament logistics and game settings optimization, Charity focus (988 Suicide Crisis Line)
- **Secondary:** Andy Bagwell's competitive career arc, Hentarium venue as pinball hub, Manufacturer partnership and prize distribution innovation
- **Mentioned:** Age diversity in competitive pinball

### Sentiment

**Positive** (0.85) — Highly enthusiastic tone throughout. Bagwell expresses passion for player development and event creation; host is supportive and complimentary. Only slight tension around lesson-learned from SSS3 overtime, presented constructively. Overall collaborative, forward-looking sentiment about pinball community building.

### Signals

- **[community_signal]** PAPA 21 commits 20% of event proceeds plus 100% of separate raffle ticket sales ($150 each) to 988 Suicide and Crisis Line, embedding social mission into tournament structure (confidence: high) — Bagwell: '20% of all proceeds go to that suicide foundation...those raffle tickets, the separate ones, 100% of that is going directly to the 988 Foundation'
- **[community_signal]** Expanded 72-player A-division playoff format designed intentionally to increase accessibility and engagement for mid-tier competitive players (60-80th ranked players) (confidence: high) — Bagwell's explicit philosophy: 'I want to create a path for more people to become known in the pinball community...a player gets in here...scratches in at the 60th or 50th spot...suddenly this local player who nobody knows becomes another pinball celebrity'
- **[community_signal]** Machine supply for PAPA 21 supplemented by external collectors and operators (John Peterson's classics collection, Tilt Amusements' 10 new in-box machines) indicating strong community investment in event success (confidence: high) — Bagwell: 'John Peterson's offering us classics from his collection. And Trent at Tilt Amusements is offering us 10 new in-box turns...they're literally making this event possible'
- **[competitive_signal]** Chicago identified as exceptional competitive pinball hub with consistent high-level player population driving Bagwell's progression from unknown to top-15 ranked player (confidence: high) — Bagwell: 'I'm watching my local players...Mike Coleman...watched him grow from brand-new first-time player to somebody who's a threat at my local tournaments every month in and out'
- **[event_signal]** PAPA 21 officially revived and scheduled for September 5-8, 2024 in Chicago after years of absence; represents major tournament calendar milestone (confidence: high) — Direct confirmation by Andy Bagwell that Kevin Martin blessed revival and event is proceeding with 192 registered players and 75 volunteers already committed
- **[manufacturing_signal]** Stern Pinball and Jersey Jack Pinball proactively supporting PAPA 21 with raffle-based prize distribution at manufacturer suggestion, democratizing win eligibility beyond first place (confidence: high) — Bagwell: 'Stern actually had that idea when I talked to them...normally we give a game away...but because this is a charity event we kind of want to spread the wealth around...showing up at the event means you get an entry to win both games'
- **[community_signal]** Andy Bagwell elevated from player to significant tournament director/organizer role, running multiple major events (SSS, PAPA 21) and positioned as advocate for player incentive structure within IFPA (confidence: high) — Self-identification: 'I'm the unofficial arm of player incentive at the IFPA' and progression from 2019 unknown to current TD responsibilities suggests organizational growth
- **[competitive_signal]** Unlimited card format allows flexible participation enabling attendees to balance pinball play with sightseeing/family activities, addressing common tournament friction point (confidence: medium) — Bagwell discussing format flexibility and Jeff noting wife Ann is attending event specifically due to Schaumburg location appeal and ability to do activities between rounds
- **[competitive_signal]** Game difficulty calibration and player skill variance remain challenging variables affecting event runtime; SSS3 went 7 hours over target due to unchanged settings applied to larger, higher-skilled field (confidence: high) — Bagwell's detailed analysis: 'I didn't account for the increased player skill...we ended up being there until 3 a.m....Huge mistake on my part. 100% my fault.' Implementing harder settings (outline rubbers removed, tighter slings) for PAPA 21
- **[venue_signal]** Hentarium's strategic location (Schaumburg) near O'Hare, Pinball Expo venue, downtown Chicago, and Woodfield Mall creates multi-purpose travel destination reducing participant friction (confidence: high) — Bagwell: '15 minutes from O'Hare Airport...literally across the street from where Expo is hosted now...downtown Chicago is only a 20, 30-minute drive away...unlimited qualifying thing...you could show up and put one card in'
- **[venue_signal]** Hentarium (FEC venue) demonstrating exceptional commitment to pinball community despite redemption game revenue dominance; managing growth from 5-7 to 35 machines and 80-90 monthly tournament players (confidence: high) — Bagwell emphasizes Benji's 'love of pinball itself and of the competitive scene' as essential factor overriding profit motive; 107-player monthly tournament shows unprecedented FEC engagement

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## Transcript

 It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teels. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile. You can email pinballprofile at gmail.com. And if you'd like to show your support for the show, that would be wonderful. Don't worry. The show will always be free, but we appreciate your Patreon subscriptions. thank you very much to GME Law, Rodney C, Nick K, Derek S, and others. That's patreon.com slash pinballprofile. It's time to hear from this special man who's putting on a massive event called Papa 21 along with Penny Epstein and Kevin Martin and others. Time to talk to Andy Bagwell, the player, the TD, the commentator, the IFPA, the Mohawk. Andy, how are you, my friend? I do wear a lot of hats, Jeff. Hi, thanks for having me on, man. You shouldn't be wearing a hat. With that flowing mane of yours, are you kidding me? Yeah, I haven't had a hat on in years. That's a good point. I would love to see you maybe go to a Cubs game in the middle of the summer. They're in Chicago where you are. Baking in the sun, having a beer, maybe a hot dog, and then just shave the lid. I just want to see the tan line. That's it. That would be awesome. I've got some fair skin. I don't tend to go outside too often. Plus, I'm not a Cubs fan either, so I wouldn't even try to be at the Cubs game. So, yeah, Cardinals fan. Cardinals? I was thinking Southside, and you can't be a White Sox fan this year. I grew up six hours south of here. Oh. Yeah, not my area. Okay. The cards aren't bad this year. We'll talk baseball maybe another time. Right now we've got to talk some pinball. You don't need to stay outside and be in the sun for pinball. You need to be at Hentarium for Papa 21 coming up the first full weekend of September, 5th to the 8th. Tell us about it. Yeah, we're bringing Papa back. So Kevin Martin was nice enough to lend us the name and give us tons of support with this. So it was Penny and Josh's kind of idea after doing a charity event for Lyman and Interium a year ago. They kind of started to discuss amongst themselves and decided, you know, maybe we should talk to Kevin about this and see if he'd be interested in lending us his support. He was 100% in as soon as they talked to him about it. So they ended up reaching out to me and asked if I wanted to TD it. And I was like, nah, I'm good. Josh was like, yeah. And I'm like, no, of course I'm in. I would not miss it. Okay. If you did say no, I would understand because it's not like just running any event at Antarium. I mean, you run some big events. You just ran the huge SSS tournament. Congratulations on that successful event. This is different. Extremely different. You know, Silver Bowl Super Social, SSS 3 this year was enjoyable. I learned some more lessons to apply for next year in terms of time on it. But it's nowhere near the amount of effort that this is taking. So, you know, Gavin's Game Repair added a couple of games into SSS3. We have over 30 games coming into Interium additional on top of the 35 that they have for this. So that on its own is a massive lift. You know, we have John Peterson's offering us classics from his collection. And Trent at Tilt Amusements is offering us 10 new in-box turns as well that he's shipping out. So those guys are extremely, extremely thankful for them. and they're literally making this event possible pretty much in what they're providing for us. But the logistics of something of this size is insane. We have 75 volunteers signed up already. Brian Dye has been managing that for us. He's a saint. So, you know, three different divisions, Classics, Maine, and Women's. And Terrium is actually giving us the entire left side of the restaurant for Thursday through Sunday, the entire event time. So it includes a 250-person ballroom there. You know, the whole area is all being given to us. So it's a big deal. So it's a lot of moving parts. Wow, you can see it all on Fox Cities Pinball. Tom Graff will be doing that commentating and streaming. Good to have a Twitch partner for such a big event. It is a major in pinball. All five are now in existence here in this calendar year in 2024. The fact that we're in Chicago, some people might say, well, wait a minute, wasn't it always in Pittsburgh? Well, actually, no. Wasn't it in New York and Las Vegas even at one time? Oh, gosh, I've only been in this wonderful hobby competitively competitively for like six years, Jeff. So I'm going to defer to you on that. So I'm not sure that it may have done that back then, I guess. I'm pretty sure New York, Vegas kind of rings a bell, and I think Penny might have mentioned that too. So forgive me. I'm not going to edit this out. If I made a mistake, it's okay. But I do know it has rotated. So being in Chicago certainly makes sense. And the fact that you're doing this at Ontario, you mentioned bringing in a lot of different games. And I guess that's the case because you are having a Classics event, and some of the classics kind of get interspersed with the main event as well, I believe. That facility, I've only been to once, and obviously people in the Chicagoland area have been many, many times. I said to you, I can't believe how great a place this is. I was there for the Stern Pro Circuit event, and you told me, oh, you wait and see what's happening, and maybe you knew this was coming. But also, you've been doing so many other tournaments there, and it's a perfect venue. Definitely what I was alluding to, Jeff, when we talked at the circuit final that day. because that was already underway as far as planning goes. It's an amazing venue, and it's got a full-service restaurant. It's attached to the Woodfield Mall, which is one of the biggest malls in America, one of the busiest malls in America. There's an infinite number of shops. There's a massive food court outside of there. They have a chef in-house that designs their menu and stuff. It's not your typical arcade fair. The food's quite good. Benji, Michael Benjamin, the GM, he's the reason this is all so easy anyway. outside of how much work it is, he is 100 million percent supportive of everything we do with pinball. We run late. He's there for us. You know, whatever we want to do with pinball there, he's been extremely supportive of it. He grew the place from maybe five to seven pinball machines into the 35 that it has today where we're averaging. We had 107 players show up for the monthly tournament last month just for a four-round monthly local event. We had 107 people, and we've been averaging about 80 to 90 players every month for the last six or seven months. So it's really been, you know, if you're someone who follows pinball tournaments, that is not normal to have that many people showing up for your events. Usually you might get, you know, somewhere between 10 and 30, and that's kind of the average number I feel like. So, yeah, it's an amazing location. Shout out to Benji indeed. You introduced me to him when I was at the Stern Pro Circuit event, and, yeah, you could really see the enthusiasm he had for pinball seeing certainly that event. And I assume with your other events mentioning 100-plus people, He'll fall in love with Papa for sure. But what's amazing about that is typically these type of venues, and understandably, their business model isn't really long-term pinball play. It's get a few quarters in, maybe play some redemption games. There's bowling there. There's the food. Pinball really requires a lot out of a facility, a manager, a lot of moving parts. Things can break down. You've got to keep the maintenance on the machines. and Benji's all about this. Well, and you mentioned the lack of classics. It happened to me, brought some in. Again, that goes back to your point, which is Interium is an FEC, a Family Entertainment Center. Their goal is to earn. And pinball machines, they don't earn like redemption games do. Redemption games print money effectively. And with pinball, the classics games there generally don't earn either. So we've only got a Gorgar and a Paragon there. Everything else is newer than that. So we don't really have that kind of lineup. He has to focus on what brings in the people the most. The newest games obviously bring the most attention. So there is definitely a very large aspect of just love and passion from Benji about enjoying the pinball community. And we definitely provide a substantial amount of food and drink sales at these events for him and stuff, but it can't compete with the redemption. So it doesn't happen without his love of pinball itself and of the competitive scene. So you mentioned Woodfield Mall there in Schaumburg, just north of Chicago. And of course, those who know Pinball Expo certainly know Schaumburg. the great thing about this venue too is I mentioned it to Mrs. Pinball Profile my wife Ann and she's like you know what I'm coming too so my wife is people always say you know where do you always go to these pinball tournaments and where's your wife and I'm like she not going to come to a pinball tournament when it at the Woodfield Mall and there Chicago there Piece of cake I got some company this time So again great venue You 30 minutes from downtown Chicago pretty much So, like, you know, if you want to even go do some sightseeing and stuff while you're here, it's an unlimited qualifying thing. There's no, you know, I've had a couple of players ask me if they had to be here for the whole time. I was like, no, it's just you could show up and put one card in, you know, if you're someone named, let's say, Keith, to, you know, qualify. and then you could go spend the rest of the time if you wanted to, you know, traveling about or something in the area. So there's a lot to see even around Schaumburg. But like I said, downtown Chicago is only a 20, 30-minute drive away from there. So it's, you know, 15 minutes from O'Hare Airport. So as you said, people familiar with it with Expo, it's literally across the street from where Expo is hosted now, at the Renaissance in Schaumburg. And Benji's actually hosted the pre-Expo tournament and the pre-Expo party, two separate things there for the last two years. so we had 100 people show up for the pre-tournament last year and that sold out in about six minutes I think when those tickets went on sale and then they also had like 200 people there for the pre-tourney part of that pre-expo party so pretty familiar place if you've been to Expo at all I feel like yeah you don't have to be at the facility for the entirety of Papa 21 because of the format which we're going to get into in a bit in fact yours truly and Travis Murie us and our better halves are going to go see the Cubs beat the hell out of the Yankees, I think, on Friday afternoon. So I told him we'd get back to baseball. There's lots to do, and I'm sure I've got a couple of deep dish pizza dinners already lined up. So that's the nice thing about this format is there are different formats. When you're playing match play, you kind of have to be there. When the round starts, you've got to be there. With this Herb style or with a card-based format, you can come and go as you please. The more you play, the better your chances, of course, but you can put up a great set of games and maybe be able to do things. Plus also, endurance-wise, I like to take a break once in a while. I can't just go, go, go. I was just talking to some friends after a recent event, actually after SSS3, and I was lamenting the fact that kind of going to the TD angle of this somewhat and about my newly developed passion for incentivizing player bases is that I feel like a lot of events, there's very little time to just hang out with people outside of the pinball unless they're unlimited card type events, then you have a lot more free time, I feel like. So that's already kind of taken care of itself for Papa in that sense. So, yeah, I agree with you, Jeff. Breaks are important and necessary, I think. I think people don't want to play pinball for 12 hours a day straight. It's a challenge to try to find the right balance of game playability and not having your games run too long to kind of strike that perfect midpoint where people have a good time playing pinball, but also you're not stuck there until 2 in the morning or something. Okay, so you mentioned that, and you said you learned some lessons from SSS3. You talked about some of the timing of games. What can people expect for Pampa? And I say that because I, myself, with The Beast, which just happened, I'm always conscious of the last day. How long are we going to be there on the last day, knowing people might have flights, might have to get out of there? How does it work for you? Yeah, so with SSS3, I have the settings from that the same way as the previous year of SSS2. and we had 100 players, actually like 85 players last year, and we finished main qualifying at about 8 p.m. on Saturday night. So I felt really good about that. It was 45 points to reach for the target match play. So this year I said, well, let's go to 50. But I also increased the player field from 85 to 120, and I didn't account for the increased player skill. Left the game settings all the same. Well, that turned out to be a big, big mistake. So we ended up being there until 3 a.m. on Saturday night this time. Huge mistake on my part. 100% my fault. We'll fix it for next year. We're going to go from 50 points to 35, and I may toughen the games up a little bit more, but generally the consensus was that the games are very approachable and playable for the most part. Ball savers off on the plunge, and that was pretty much it. Turnip mode on, extra balls off. For Papa, they're going to be harder. We're going to have the outline rubbers removed. We'll have rubber feet on all the games. We're going to have the slings tightened up to be a lot more whisper sling sensitivity to fire, much easier. Tilts will be moderate. My goal with tilts is one big move on a modern should get you a double danger. So tournament mode will be on on the games, obviously. I'm not planning on changing any default multiball ball savers. I'm not planning on changing any game settings, like in the actual operator settings for features and stuff. So that's kind of a snapshot of how the games are going to play effectively. SSS3, with those settings that were easier, our playoff rounds averaged about two hours and five minutes on that Sunday. So that eventually included a round of Carlos, Raymond, Z-Mac, and Greg Kennedy, who also played for two hours and nine minutes with the old mid-new selection restrictions, which we're going to do for Papa as well. After the feedback I saw from SSS3, we were originally going to have choosing just three of any era that you wanted to, and we realized that was going to be a huge time mistake if we did that. Good call. I think that with the more difficult setups and the old-mid-new restrictions that are going to be in place, I'm hoping to still shoot for two-hour rounds. We have six rounds to get through on Sunday. It starts at 8 a.m., so my hope is roughly 8 p.m. But obviously, I can't control that to a perfect level, and I don't want to make the games overly difficult for players, so I feel like I can strike a good balance there between the two things. But the wonderful thing is we'll be able to learn from this year and adjust for next year because, obviously, the format is unique with having 72 people getting into the A playoffs. Well, that's interesting, too, and kind of attractive, too, because 72? Let me see. Indisc, which is a major, it's top 40 and difficult to get into that. Pinberg was just top 16 in their reincarnation for the new Pinberg that we saw, 2.0, if you will. It was fabulous. difficult as it should be to get in. So 72, it's not a guarantee you're going to get in, but it's again, probably a little more relieving to players thinking, okay, I have a chance. It is Jeff. And this, this is getting to the core of what my passion has been really growing with these last year or two of running larger scale events and running bigger tournaments and stuff is that I'm watching my local players and I want them to get more excited about playing competitive pinball and some of those players, you know, I haven't talked to a lot of people at InDisc who, I love InDisc. InDisc is probably the best run tournament on the planet, best run machines on the planet. I have no complaints about them and I understand them taking 40 to playoffs, but I talked to some players who, you know, said that they just didn't feel like they had a chance. Like, because they were like a 60 to 80th type player. And so they just felt like no matter how hard they pushed, they could not break through that level of that 40-player cutoff. And as you said, it's not a guarantee you're going to get in, but what I'm interested to try to do here, and the team's interested to try to do here, is to create a situation where not just 1 through 72, and then 73 through 80 get into B division as well, so there's a small B final. And Indisc has B divisions as well, too. Yep. My point is, the players that are, if you have, let's say, 40 people make playoffs, well, that means that those 40 are obviously always engaged. Then you have 41 through, let's say, maybe 60. Those players are kind of engaged, maybe 70, because they have a chance, they kind of feel like. They're kind of close, so they'll come back. With this, I'm really hopeful that 73 through like 110 or 120 or 130th, those players all become more engaged than they normally are at an event of this size and this prestige. And, you know, it's like sports playoffs, Jeff. It's March Madness is what I want to create here. you know, anybody that gets into the big dance can get hot. So, like, a player gets in here, some local player, an unknown player, scratches in at the 60th or the 50th spot or something, and they survive the big first round, and maybe they get hot, and they advance two, three more rounds, you know, and suddenly this local player who nobody knows becomes, you know, another pinball known person, another pinball celebrity, you know. There's more people than just their local scene sort of take notice of these players. And that's my really hope. I hope so much that this kind of event creates that course order environment and inspires more places to maybe adjust your formats and adjust your setups to maybe account for a larger playoff field so you can start to engage a bigger portion of your player base to have more fun at pinball and have a chance to make playoffs. Because especially in the match play playoff format, group elimination, we're top two advance. You don't even have to be the bear in your group. You just have to outrun the bear. So, you know, you just have to outrun the other two people. So there's a chance there that players that maybe wouldn't always advance every time have a better chance of making it through and top two advance. I like your analogy of March Madness because you're right. Anybody can get hot and just get me to the dance. It's that kind of thing in poker, a chip in a chair. And you're right. It can happen. You just never know. Somebody could have a bad game. You could have an outstanding game. It happens in pinball. And stars are born, like you say. And maybe you get streamed on Fox City. And, oh, wow, look at this. Here I am at a major event. It's fun and it's excitement, and kudos to you for doing that and giving this 72 a try. It is a major attraction to me and many other people I know, so well done on that. You were talking about you've only been doing this competitively for six years, and I remember it was 2019 at Jack Danger's old studio. I ran the Pinball Profile World Tour event. I was in ten different cities, four different countries, and Jack was kind enough to let me come there, and we played. And this unknown guy that I knew a little bit, Andy Bagwell, beat all the Chicago greats. I assume your greatest win ever. It's up there, honestly. I remember the final, if I remember, was Josh Sharpe. Dalton was in the final, I believe. Oh, DJ. So, yeah, Josh Sharpe, DJ Real, and Dalton Eli. Dalton was, ironically, my 667 at the time, but obviously we know what kind of player he turned into. That was definitely easily my biggest win to date in my career back then, and one of my prouder ones because it was like a three- or four-game final, I think, with some serious talent there. That's the thing, right? I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, the reason you have propelled to one of the best players in the world right now and a person we're going to be seeing at the World Championships for years to come is because you get to play these great players over and over, especially in Chicago. But instead of being intimidated by these great players, you have learned from them and you want to keep pace with them. I assume that's the big reason. Oh, absolutely, Jeff. I mean, when I first started playing competitively, I always loved pinball, but I was never any kind of like flipper skills or anything like that. I was mainly just a pretty accurate person who liked pinball a whole lot. I was always fascinated by pinball because every time I ever played pinball, it was different. compared to most video games where there's a pattern to find usually. Pinball was never the same to me. So even as a little kid, I was fascinated by it because it was always different. I could play the same pinball machine 50 times and win free games on it every time too. And I was always in love with it. So when I found competitive pinball, my wife pointed out the league at Pinball Super League at Interium to me, Jeff. That was the first competitive pinball thing I found out about was the Pinball Super League run by Josh and Zach Sharp. So get your conspiracy hats on there for how this all shook out, right? But, you know, when I first started playing, all those players, every single one I watched, because I love to watch other people play, especially when I'm playing against them. It's like I'm always watching if you watch me on stream. Like I love to watch my opponents. I was just like, I was gobsmacked. I was like, there's no way I can beat any of these people. They're way too good. Like all of these people, they were trapping balls and controlling balls, drop catching, all these things that were just blowing me away with their skills. And I could not get enough of talking to them and watching them play. And I try to tell people, if you want to get better, you need to do that. You need to watch people that you think are better than you play pinball and then ask them questions about it afterwards. Because as a player that did start off unknown and moved up to as high as 15th in the rankings, that's part of why I have this passion, Jeff, for like, I want to create a path for more people to become known in the pinball community if they have the passion and push and desire to play at a high level because there's so many players out there that are unknowns, that are so good at pinball, even just from my local scene watching them. So, you know, you've got players. I've watched a player like Mike Coleman in my local scene. You know, I watched his first tournaments at Brixie's back in the day, and I've watched him grow from, you know, a brand-new first-time player to somebody who's a threat at my local tournaments every month in and out. You know, there's just so many players out there like that that I want to put them on a bigger stage if they so desire. Now, you say that as you approach your 40th year next year, correct? Correct. So you're saying... Well, I'm about to turn 39 in like a, you know, right around Papa, actually. Yeah. For 11th, so... Don't think we didn't know that you picked the dates to hopefully get a birthday present or cake or two. We know your whole intent. I'm just kidding. That'll be nice. But yeah, 40 next year. So the reason I bring that up is we see all these great players, and they're, oh, I don't know, under the age of 25, which is exciting because they're the future of pinball, and they're embracing it. And we grew up with it and saw it for years when arcades were a real big thing. Now, whether it's the family entertainment centers or certainly home collections, we're seeing these players do very well. But you're saying even somebody like yourself, who's almost over the hill, let's be honest, can still find the skills, can still pull it out there. It's encouraging. Trust me. You're only as young as you feel, Jeff. So, I mean, yeah, I'm definitely getting up there a little bit in my age. But I don't know. Pinball, to me, feels as good as it did the first day I started to play it. So my reflexes still feel sharp as ever. and I'm definitely going to keep, you know. And I remember as I started to play, you know, back then, I had all these little miniature goals that I thought would be cool to someday hit, you know, and at first it was, you know, just any points I got were exciting. And then it was, well, maybe top 1,000. I was like, then I get the IFPA rewards. I get the Stern rewards for the, you know, the discount on the Stern machine. And I'm like, but surely I'll never hit 1,000. And then I hit 1,000. And then I was like, 500 would be funny, but I'm never going to reach. Oh, I went past 500. And then I was like, well, that's about as far as I need to worry about this. I'm never going to reach 100. And then I did that too. And then I was like, you know, after even like 1,000, it was all gravy to me. And, you know, I got as high as 15th. And I remember someone asking me, you know, well, how are you going to maintain this? And I was like, I don't need to maintain anything. I'm already set for life on, like, my happiness with competitive pinball. So, you know, I don't know if maybe that's part of it, Jeff, in terms of age. where some people that are older, maybe they're trying to push too hard to get to a certain rank that they feel they want. But for me, all this is just icing on a cake. I cannot be happier and more proud of myself with the way I've played these last couple of years in pinball and all the friends that I've made. So I think that we had a John Severin, his name was John Severin, started showing up to our tournaments recently, a much older guy, incredibly skilled at pinball. I don't think there's an age range. I remember they commented on one of the Stern Family Entertainment videos a while back that our tournament age ranges are like 2 to 95. Everybody can find competitive enjoyment in pinball, so I don't think it's really an age thing. But as you said, those younger players are definitely the main threats, obviously, of course. I can't touch their skill level, but after getting to play at Worlds and doing actual damage to some of them in the playoffs and stuff and feeling like I actually even knocked out one of the younger ones and took Johannes to eight games, I feel like there's no reason you can't play against a player like Jason Zeller or something and give them a fight. Oh, for sure. Anybody on any given day can just get hot, and that's certainly the case. It's just putting it all together. You have done well recently this year. In fact, there's a great charity event in Kalamazoo, Michigan, called Pinball at the Zoo, and you won both the main and classic, so that's impressive. So I bring that up because that's a charity event, and so is Papa 21 in a sense, because a huge part of the contributions for Papa 21 are going to be going to the 988 Suicide and Crisis line that Penny Epstein and I talked about, and that's really important too. And kind of big sponsors have come on board too I know Stern has come to you with a new in game and so is Jersey Jack pinball and these are being given away kind of uniquely Yeah Stern actually had that idea when I talked to them about this and they said you know normally we give a game away for a big event like this and it goes to the winner they said but because this is a charity event we kind of want to what would you think about spreading the wealth around a little bit and making it something where everybody had a chance to win and I was like I could not be more excited about that idea because, again, you're talking to the unofficial arm of player incentive at the IFPA. So, like, I love ideas like that. Like, you know, and obviously it does hurt the prize pool a little bit, right? Because that's kind of a free way to cut out the first place prize pool in your events if they give away a machine. So, you know, no disrespect to doing that, but I'm excited to be at an event that's kind of unique in that just showing up at the event means you get an entry to win both games. You don't even have to buy an extra entry or anything, you'll be entered into the raffle for both machines. You could even win them both. We're not even taking your name off the wheel if you win the first one. So you could literally, Jeff, win both machines just by attending the event. And we're selling extra raffle tickets, but we decided to sell those at the cost of a full entry. So it's $150, same as the Papa entry, for an individual raffle ticket. And we have had like 10 or 15 people buy those, but it's not a lot because it's obviously a pretty hefty amount. And those raffle tickets, the separate ones, 100% of that is going directly to the 988 Foundation for Suicide Awareness about our employment sheets. So everything else for the event, 20% of all proceeds go to that suicide foundation. But even with those people buying those additional tickets, you're still only looking at about 200 or so raffle tickets in play right now. We have about 192 people signed up and, you know, 10 or so people have bought raffle tickets. So roughly in the realm of 200 or so tickets, that's a pretty low number. You know, usually in an event like this where you raffle off a machine, the tickets are $5 or $3 or something like that, you know, or $10. And somebody can come and buy, you know, a couple hundred tickets or something if they really wanted to. But I think this creates a scenario where it's pretty even. You know, there's no way to earn tickets at the event. You know, there's nothing, the winners don't get extra tickets or anything like that. So pretty much everybody showing up has the exact same chance to win as everybody else does, first place or last place. So I love that. I'm really excited about it. I think the players are too. That's really nice. And thank you again to Stern Pinball and Jersey Jack Pinball for coming on board and supporting such a great organization like the 988 Suicide and Crisis Line in honor of Lyman Sheets. Okay, you're only a few weeks away. What are the stresses going through your head? Like, are you able to put your head down and sleep at night? Because I know just getting ready for the beast, I'm like, oh, there's this, there's this, there's this. It's months, and in your case, a year in planning. But still, as you get closer, you're like, okay, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, there's this. The machines were the biggest thing And we have John's games already at Interium now The classics, they've all been packaged and moved over there And they're all on legs already We just have to fold the heads up and wheel them out on the floor So the machines were the biggest thing for me Because that is the one thing You can't magic up You have to just get the machines there from somewhere And it's not easy to do that So a friend of ours, Ryan I'll have more information on him at Papa Because we'll have the actual sponsorship and stuff detail up there He owns a fire and water damage company that protects people's items during insurance claims. And he was kind enough to offer his moving services to us this year to get John's Games over to Interium for us. So a massive thanks to him. Like I said, we'll have more information on him at the actual Papa stuff with a full breakdown and logos of his sponsors and company logo and whatnot. But Trent's Games from Tilt are supposed to be delivered actually tomorrow to Interium. So like I said, once those are there, a lot of my stress goes away. We have a lot of people helping with this. I have a big support system. I can't stress enough that it's not just me. I'm really just the guy doing the TD stuff. Josh and Penny have been really instrumental in helping with a lot of this and all the volunteers as well beyond that. Obviously, Tom in Fox City, Brian Dye as well, Aaron Seiden, who's TDing the women's tournament with Penny. Benji himself obviously being helpful. Gavin Miller providing games for the event. We have Logan, Derek, Brad. Also, Jared Chambers from Pinburg is going to be there teching. Those three guys are going to be there teching for us as well, and they're even doing some pre-work ahead of time to kind of get the games in better shape versus what they were at SS3. So Kevin Martin's also been extremely helpful on his end of things with so many different parts of this. There's not a lot left at this point. We're just kind of, I feel like the plane's touching down here. Like when we're about to land, I don't feel like anything is missing right now, but I'm a nervous person. I'm an analytical person. So until it's all like there and clear, I'm not, I don't lose sleep over it. I sleep pretty easy, But the Sunday before through the Tuesday or whatever, the Wednesday, those are going to be the biggest final setup days because we can't put the games out there until then. So they've got to kind of stay in storage at Interium. So I'm going to be a little bit nervous until we get through that all clean. But I feel good, Jeff, right now. I feel like we're in a good spot. Things aren't going to be perfect. They never are with an event of this size. Remember that you said that. Things are not going to be perfect because, and my advice to you, you've run big events. This is certainly your biggest one. Don't focus on the negative comments. Don't focus. I'll tell you right now, day one you're going to hear this. Oh, my God, the tilts are too tight. What have you done here? The slings, it's ridiculous. I didn't even get to flip. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ignore it all. It's the same for everyone. Nope, I don't mind. And feedback's fine either way. I'll take it if I need it and I won't if I don't. So it doesn't bother me. My career has gifted me with some pretty thick skin. And I understand that it's impossible to please everybody at these events. And I've literally, you know, S3 was a great example of flipping my playoff format kind of at the last second after some discussions that I had with people and realizing I was kind of going down the wrong path there. And it made some people happy and it made some people not happy. So it was a great example, like, of a really recent thing that shows me that, like, no matter what you choose, you're not going to make everybody happy. It's impossible to do that. That's right. If you're going to run these events, you have to thicken your skin up to that point and remember that. And also still keep your ears open to good changes you can make, you know. So, you know, some people were like, well, you should do all these game settings next year for SSS 3, SSS 4. And I just like, I don't want to do that. I'm just going to take off 15 points of my qualifying. They're like, well, that's too much. I'm like, I don't care. If the tournament's worth a little bit less TGP, it doesn't matter to me. I don't care if it's 180% or 190% or 200%. I have ways, levers I can move that don't result in making an event that's got limited entries ultra painful for a large percentage of my player base. that I'm going to use those. And if you don't like the fact that my tournaments might be not worth maximum TGP because of that, I'm okay with that because I'm trying to find this balance out there where a larger contingent of players come out and have fun playing pinball for 10 hours a day versus put through a meat grinder effectively and feel like they don't have a chance to play the games. I think you've got the right attitude, and I think it's going to be fantastic. Papa 21, September 5th through the 8th. And you can find out more at LFS, Lyman Sheets initials, lfs.papa.org. Andy, I will see you in a few weeks in your first of many 39th birthdays. And I'm excited for you, and I'm really proud what you, Penny, and Kevin, and everyone else has done, even Josh. Appreciate that. I'll let Josh know. He'll be really glad that you are. You can edit that part out if you want. I probably will. If you decide to renege on it later, yes. Thanks very much, Andy. See you soon. Thanks for having me, Jeff. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram at pinballprofile, email pinballprofile at gmail.com. You can join our Patreon group, which is patreon.com slash pinballprofile. Thank you so much to Lua W., to Erica's Pinball Journey, Fox Cities Pinball, Jerry S., Colin M., and so many others that have contributed. It means a lot. Don't worry, the show will always be free, but that's patreon.com slash pinballprofile. I hope to see you at Papa 21 at Antarium. It's going to be great in Schaumburg, Illinois, September 5th through 8th. Fandy Bagwell, I'm Jeff Teels.

_(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_

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*Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: cba25127-bc73-4696-bc75-a0cfb87b30bb*
