# TOPCast 21: Rob Berk **Source:** TOPCast - This Old Pinball **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2007-03-28 **Duration:** 72m 0s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/showget.php?id=21 --- ## Analysis Rob Burke, founder and organizer of the Pinball Expo, discusses his early involvement in pinball starting in the 1960s with childhood machines, his development as a collector in the 1970s-80s, and how he orchestrated the first Pinball Expo in 1985 by leveraging personal connections with legendary designers and manufacturers including Steve Cordack, Norm Clark, and Elvin Gottlieb. Burke also shares his parallel passion for firecracker collecting and describes the auction format he adapted from fireworks conventions. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Rob Burke's parents owned a United Baby Face pinball machine when he was five years old in the 1960s — _Rob Burke, opening discussion about earliest pinball memories_ - [HIGH] Rob purchased a Post Time machine for $300 around 1975-1976, which sparked his interest in add-a-ball games — _Rob Burke describing his first pinball purchase as a young adult_ - [HIGH] Rob cold-called Steve Cordack (Williams designer) from a Chicago hotel phone book on a Sunday evening around 9 p.m. and was invited to tour the Williams factory — _Rob Burke recounting his chance meeting with Steve Cordack in the mid-1970s_ - [HIGH] The first Pinball Expo was held in 1985 with approximately 100 attendees — _Rob Burke stating 'the first 85 show' had about 100 people_ - [HIGH] Bill Kurtz and Rob Burke drafted a questionnaire using Steve Young's Pinball Collector's Quarterly mailing list in 1984 to gauge interest in a national convention, receiving 60-70 responses — _Rob Burke describing the planning process for the first Expo_ - [HIGH] Rob Burke secured Williams, Bally, and participation from industry figures by leveraging competitive pressure between manufacturers — _Rob Burke explaining how he pitched competing manufacturers to get them to exhibit_ - [HIGH] Elvin Gottlieb invited Rob Burke to his home after receiving an unsolicited phone call about the Expo and agreed to be the keynote speaker — _Rob Burke recounting his visit to Gottlieb's home in Chicago_ - [HIGH] Rob Burke's Expo auction format was adapted from the PGI (fireworks enthusiasts convention) which holds week-long seminars — _Rob Burke explaining the inspiration for the Expo format_ - [HIGH] Gary Stern contributed $1,000 and coordinated additional $1,000 contributions from Tommy Niemann and a Bally employee for the Make-A-Wish auction — _Rob Burke discussing recent Expo auction participation by Gary Stern_ - [MEDIUM] Rich Conti attended the first 1985 Expo despite reportedly hating flying, impressing attendees — _Rob Burke recalling notable attendees at the inaugural 1985 Expo_ ### Notable Quotes > "So I went to Cleveland and I saw this post time and I recalled that the play field was similar to what I recognized as the being the paddock play field. But the guy said, oh, this is more fun. You can keep getting free balls." > — **Rob Burke**, N/A > _Pivotal moment describing discovery of add-a-ball games and what sparked his passion for the genre_ > "About nine o'clock at night, I called this number, not knowing who this person is. And I said, are you the guy that works for the Williams-Pinball company? His response was, yes I am." > — **Rob Burke**, N/A > _Describes the serendipitous cold call to Steve Cordack from a Chicago phone book that launched his industry connections_ > "You're so enthusiastic and so motivated, how could I say no? Yes, I will agree to be your guest speaker." > — **Elvin Gottlieb (as reported by Rob Burke)**, N/A > _Gottlieb's response to Rob Burke's in-person pitch to be the Expo's keynote speaker_ > "It was truly a special event. Because like you mentioned clay back then, the only way to communicate was through typing a letter or sending a cassette to your friend to listen to. So to finally meet Steve young face to face Don Murphy face to face... we finally had a chance to meet these people in person." > — **Rob Burke**, N/A > _Explains the emotional and cultural significance of the first Expo as a reunion of the pinball community_ > "I based the expo on a similar format that they did, which was basically seminars during the day and then an exhibit hall... I based a lot of my ideas on the format of the expo on what they did and what was successful for them was the was the fireworks thing." > — **Rob Burke**, N/A > _Reveals the explicit architectural influence of fireworks conventions (PGI) on the Expo structure_ > "So someone totally out of the industry comes and starts this show from scratch. And I get two of the major players to join, or to come to exhibit." > — **Rob Burke**, N/A > _Emphasizes his outsider status and the difficulty of securing manufacturer participation_ > "You need someone who is part of the industry to really drive the show." > — **Rob Burke**, N/A > _States his philosophy on why industry insiders are critical to making collector shows successful_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Rob Burke | person | Founder and organizer of Pinball Expo; pinball collector since childhood; orchestrated first Expo in 1985; also passionate about firecracker collecting | | Steve Cordack | person | Williams pinball designer; instrumental in securing Williams' participation in the first Expo; cold-called by Rob Burke in mid-1970s | | Norm Clark | person | Pinball designer credited with creating Post Time; worked for Bally; secured Bally's participation in first Expo | | Elvin Gottlieb | person | Gottlieb Manufacturing pinball designer; served as keynote speaker for the first Pinball Expo; invited Rob Burke to his home | | Bill Kurtz | person | Author and writer; member of Ohio Pinball Collectors Club; co-planner of Pinball Expo with Rob Burke; also involved in 1950s-60s music | | Steve Young | person | Published Pinball Collector's Quarterly; his mailing list was used for the Expo survey that generated 60-70 responses | | Dave Wright | person | Early member of Ohio Pinball Collectors Club; attended Expo in later years | | Mike Pacek | person | Head of operations for game arcade called Punting Games; Ohio Pinball Collectors Club member; became Exhibit Chairman for Expo | | Don Murphy | person | Made transformers and coils for Gottlieb; provided connection to Elvin Gottlieb for Rob Burke | | Pinball Expo | event | Annual pinball convention founded in 1985; features seminars, manufacturer exhibits, auctions; first show had ~100 attendees | | Williams Manufacturing | company | Major pinball manufacturer; participated in first 1985 Expo through Steve Cordack's arrangement | | Bally Manufacturing | company | Major pinball manufacturer; Norm Clark secured Bally's participation in first Expo | | Gottlieb Manufacturing | company | Pinball manufacturer; Elvin Gottlieb facilitated participation in first Expo; had been sold to Columbia Pictures by 1976 | | Data East | company | Pinball manufacturer; Joe Camacose helped found and was extremely supportive of the Expo | | Joe Camacose | person | Industry veteran who worked at Data East, Williams, and Gottlieb; early advocate and supporter of Pinball Expo | | Harvey Heist | person | Game designer for Gento; spoke at Expo in mid-80s; known for colorful personality and X-rated stories | | Gary Stern | person | Stern Pinball representative; donated $1,000 and coordinated additional donations for Expo Make-A-Wish auction | | Tommy Niemann | person | Contributed $1,000 to Expo Make-A-Wish auction at Gary Stern's coordination | | Rich Conti | person | Attended first 1985 Expo despite reportedly disliking flying; his attendance impressed attendees | | Russ Jensen | person | Notable attendee at first Pinball Expo in 1985 | | Dick Bueschel | person | Attended first Pinball Expo; described it as a 'pinball love-in' | | Ohio Pinball Collectors Club | organization | Collector club where Rob Burke met key figures like Bill Kurtz and Mike Pacek; precursor to Expo development | | PGI (Pyrotechnics Guild International) | organization | Fireworks enthusiasts convention; week-long event with seminars; format explicitly inspired Rob Burke's Expo structure | ### Topics - **Primary:** Pinball Expo history and founding, Rob Burke's personal pinball collecting history (1960s-1980s), Industry relationships and manufacturer participation in Expo - **Secondary:** Pinball design history and classic games (1950s-1970s), Firecracker/fireworks collecting as parallel hobby, Expo auctions and fundraising, Early pinball community and collector networks pre-internet - **Mentioned:** Regional pinball availability in Ohio/Michigan (1970s-80s) ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.85) — Rob Burke speaks with nostalgia, pride, and enthusiasm about the pinball community's history and the Expo's founding. Positive recollections of industry figures and the meaningful connections forged. Mild self-awareness about aggressive auction tactics but frames them as good-natured fun. No major criticisms or negative sentiments expressed. ### Signals - **[event_signal]** First Pinball Expo held in 1985 with ~100 attendees; planning began in 1984 with questionnaire survey; developed from Ohio Pinball Collectors Club meetings (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'I think it was in 84 when Bill and I drafted this... The first 85 show... we had about 100 people show up' - **[community_signal]** Pre-internet pinball collector community relied on letters, cassettes, phone calls, and publications like Pinball Collector's Quarterly to maintain connections (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'back then, the only way to communicate was through typing a letter or sending a cassette to your friend' - **[industry_signal]** Williams and other manufacturers initially viewed collector shows as poor ROI; focused marketing efforts on operators and trade shows instead (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'Williams and some other manufacturers... thought these shows of sorts were really a way through the time, because to invest money in a collector show was not a very good return' - **[business_signal]** Rob Burke used competitive pressure between Williams and Bally to secure manufacturer participation in first Expo (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'You're like playing them against each other. Exactly... he said, well, if Williams is coming, we'll come' - **[personnel_signal]** Joe Camacose (Data East/Williams/Gottlieb veteran) became early and strong advocate for Pinball Expo in its formative years (confidence: medium) — Rob Burke: 'Joe Camacose is very much an advocate of the Expo, and the early years he was extremely, extremely helpful' - **[content_signal]** Early Expo featured designer seminars; Harvey Heist's Gento presentations were popular and colorful; full week of seminars at competitor fireworks convention (PGI) (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'they have seminars for a whole solid week... I based a lot of my ideas on the format of the expo on what they did' - **[collector_signal]** Rob Burke collects vintage firecracker packs in original packaging; community of 2-3 dozen collectors; examples found from 1930s onward at flea markets (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'I have found stuff going back to the 1930s... there is, let's say, two or three dozen people that I'm aware of that actually collect these packs' - **[historical_signal]** Ohio and Michigan had limited free-play and replay availability in 1960s-70s; pinball machines primarily found at county fairs and occasional bowling alleys (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'Warnoha wasn't like the pinball capital of the world... didn't do a lot of free plays or extra balls... occasional bowling alley, but that was about it' - **[design_philosophy]** Rob Burke's attraction to add-a-ball games (like Post Time) stemmed from extended gameplay potential compared to replay games (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'geez, this is more fun than a replay because you can keep playing, keep playing, keep playing for a dime' - **[event_signal]** Expo auctions raise funds for Make-A-Wish Foundation; Rob Burke serves as auctioneer; Gary Stern's team contributed $1,000+ for recent auction (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'Gary Stern... put up $1,000... they all put up $1,000... it went like $3,000, $4,000. So it means all for a good cause' - **[community_signal]** First 1985 Expo described as 'pinball love-in' by attendees; represented first in-person meeting for many community members who had only corresponded by mail/phone (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'Dick Blue Shell being there and him saying it was a pinball love in because they were just so much enthusiasm generated from that event' - **[licensing_signal]** Gottlieb Manufacturing had been sold to Columbia Pictures by 1976 at time of first Expo planning (confidence: high) — Rob Burke: 'he had sold the Columbia Pictures, what 76?' --- ## Transcript Hey gang, it's the Amigoy. That's right. When I'm not partying with all the movie stars in Hollywood, I'm listening to Topcast. You're listening to Topcast. This old pinballs online radio. For more information, visit them anytime. www.marvin3m.com. Flash Topcast. Welcome to Topcast. And tonight we're going to be talking to somebody that's been involved with pinball a long time. And in fact, has put on the pinball expose shows in Chicago, his history in pinball, and his work with the designers and how he actually gets these people to come to pinball expose speak and how he got the manufacturers there to do display. And we're going to give them a call right now. Special guest. Special guest. Special guest. Special guest. Okay, we're going to call Rob Burke up from the pinball expose. Rob Burke is the head guy in charge of pinball expose. Give him a call right now. Okay. All right. So we're talking to Rob Burke. And Rob was, you know, one of the guys that was in on the ground floor at the pinball expo. And we kind of want to go back and talk to Rob and see what his involvement in pinball was right from the start. So Rob, how did you get involved with pinball? I mean, what's your earliest memories of pinball? Well, Joshua Clay started out when I was a young child of five years old. I owned a, my parents had about a united baby face. So that got me involved in the interesting pinball. And later I went over, I got a got lived pecs and. You know, baby face was a united wood rail. Right. So I, you know, I've only seen that game a couple times. It didn't seem all that memorable to me. Is it a good game? Well, you know, being a young guy in the 1960s, it's all we knew growing up. But the only machine we had in the basement, we played it. And amazingly that game we'd lost the key for the front door in order to get the game started. But that game was so incredibly reliable that for years and years and years, when we played it, it always worked. So it served as purpose for its time. Did you play the wheels off of it? You got it. You went nuts. All right. And then you got a, I got a second game that's got a pecs and then the neighborhood kids have come over and all of a sudden I realized I could make a little profit by charging them a nickel a game to play the game. Oh, you are a nice guy. Yes, sir. And how old were you when you were doing this? I'd say somewhere in my teens, early teens. So you were raping the kids neighbors next door for a nickel a game? Oh, man, you're a sweetheart. From that interest, when I was in my later teens, going to school in high school, I started playing pinball more and more because of the county fair was probably the best opportunity I had whenever they came to town. They had their arcade there under the tent and that gave me an opportunity to really play pinball to a much greater extent. So where were you living at the time? Always living in Warnoha. Warnoha. So Warnoha wasn't like the pinball capital of the world that sounds like it. So Warnoha was one of those states where they didn't do a lot of free plays or extra balls, at least when I was growing up. So you didn't see many pinball machines around just occasional bowling alley, but that was about it. So when the carnival came into town, that was like our state fair in Michigan. The carnies would bring these machines on pallets and stuff and they'd grab them in this big tent. They'd never be level because they would always be sitting on dirt ground or plywood. That's it? Yeah. Okay. Any good side shows in the carnivals? Well, it wasn't so much I wanted to side shows, the fair to see the side shows. It was the pinball with my interest. And I remember part of the first game I really recall playing during those times was Williams Paddock. For some reason I took a fast nation to that game. Yeah, that's a strange one too. And I kept that name in my mind as I got older and actually what really fruitive up my interest in pinball was going to college. You can't state. And there the game rooms were just massively filled with rows and rows of pinball. So at that point in time, I really went nuts. I asked you about the side shows because on Norm used to go to the Michigan state fair and he said that he would play all the pinball machines and arcade machines and stuff. But he said that the side shows were just unbelievable. The freaky lady or the, what is it, the lady with the bearded lady and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, he loved that stuff. In fact, one of the guys came to my father's office and he wasn't town for the week for the fair and he'd mentioned that he always wanted the side shows. So my dad said which one is to do the woman with, she had a head on it, nobody. So he says, come on down, I'll get you in a free admission to the fair. So of course he went to see this woman with, she lived with a head only and he went on to explain the behind closed doors that there was a pit in the ground and they dug it. She and her whole body was in the pit and only her head was exposed. So that kind of gave us a little idea of what the side show business was all about. Oh yeah, the side shows are the best. They're the best. Alright, so then you know, so you went to, what were you going to school at Kent for? I majored in political science. And now were you there during the 70s and the, you know, the debacles that were there then? Yeah, shortly after the shootings at Kent, which was at 1970s, that was there in 1972. So every May 4th they had their classes of recancels and they had their little prayer services throughout the day. Okay, that's just curious. You know, it's kind of interesting stuff. So anyway, so then what was the next thing? So this is during the mid 70s and you're, you know, when did, you opened up? Your paper company, when did that happen? Well, my dad had started their business, you know, way before I was even born back in the 50s. So I wasn't really involved with the company business that was there. But being a young kid, my interest was fireworks and, oh, just like that guy at a Michigan Joshua Clay, he's picking fireworks too. Yeah, and I wanted to ask you about that. You collect fireworks, which I think is just, you know, when you first told me that, I was like, collect fireworks. Man, all of a sudden it was blown up. You know what I mean? That's not much of a collection if you blow the whole thing up. But you actually collect fireworks that are in the original wrappers. Right. I click the firecracker packs, yeah. Right. Right. Now, how did that start? Where we live here in Ohio, the only one of the more popular places to go for fishing is in Canada. Right. So typically we would go to Canada. We would stop at either Niagara Falls or in a lot of the fishing areas up north. When they go to the various stores, where they'd be the... The exact stores? Or even the Baton Tackle store. They would sell firecrackers in these stores. And being in Ohio, which was also no free place, no replays and no fireworks. Right. So this is an opportunity finally to get your hands on firecrackers. So every guy likes firecrackers and every year we'd bring bags from stuff from Canada. And for whatever reason, I'd just start collecting the different packs with different names on the labels. Yeah. When I was a kid, it was kind of the same way I grew up in upstate New York. And of course, you know, there was only out of balls. But at the time, I really wasn't into pinball, but I was highly into firecrackers. We would do the same thing. We'd go up to Canada because Canada was just straight across Lake Ontario. And same deal, we would buy fireworks and then bring them back over the border. And it would always... My dad always let me hide them in like the... Like in the tackle boxes and stuff like that. Right. And it was funny, you know, because we'd always get searched to customs. And they never found them or they found them and just didn't care and didn't say anything. I was never sure of which. That was half the fun Joshua Clay if you remember buying the fireworks or just the thrill and the anticipation of getting them across the border. Yeah. I know though my dad was a too thrilled about the whole thing. Oh yeah, same with me. But yeah, but I mean, I never saved him. I couldn't blow him up fast enough, you know. So for me, you know, I guess at the time I didn't realize that I was fascinated by the art of the label. Really? Very much so that the people nowadays are fascinated by the art of the pinball backlash. So I guess there may be some correlation, there's some similarities. Yeah, some of the art, you know, especially like the less common brands, you know, not the black cats and stuff like that. But some of the other stuff was kind of neat. But what's amazing for me is, you know, I realized over time that there was other people like myself that collect these things. And I have found stuff going back to the 1930s, even some of the flea markets you go to. You occasionally will wonder this stuff. It's very rare to find them. But there is, let's say, two or three dozen people that I'm aware of that actually collect these packs like I do. So you can find unblown up firecracker packs from the 30s? Unbelievably, it's incredible to find the stuff that's still lying around people's drawers. I'm sure you have some of your listeners got some that don't even realize that people collect these stuff. Wow, contact Rob Burke. There you go. So now back to the pinball thing. When did you was, you know, by your first machine, you know, the, obviously what the baby face is probably gone and the text is gone at this point, right? Yeah, actually, there's still a thing in the home. But after I left Kent State, after two years I transferred to a housing university. And there I found, again, an incredible large amount of game rooms with tons and tons of pinball machines. I mean, it was during the time when videos weren't really prevalent. So everybody was in the pinball. That was it. That was the recreation in the corner of the ministry with pinballs. And then of course, gun games, baseballs, and one-off pinballs were my love. And shortly after I got out of college, I started taking a fast nation again to look for some of these games I recall playing as a youth in the one being paddock. So there was an ad in the Cleveland paper. The guy was selling a post time. But by this time I got that Michael Comer's book. So I'm seeing all these books out there. And I realized I had a fast nation in a particular love for the adaball games, or I'm sorry, for the single player games, especially from the 60s and the mid-60s of the game that they were playing. So I went to Cleveland and I saw this post time and I recalled that the play field was similar to what I recognized as the being the paddock play field. But the guy said, oh, this is more fun. You can keep getting free balls. And theory you can play forever. So I was just so enthralled by that game. I said, okay, I'll take it for $300 I paid for it. Which was probably a lot of time putting it to play like New again. Basically rebuilding it. And that started my love for adaball games. Now $300 was a lot for a game back then. Back then you were right. Very high. But you just didn't know any better at the time. No, it was like one of the first games I ever bought. But again, it was an adaball game which I had never even heard of before. And when I bought that game, I played it and really started taking the liking to adaball games saying to myself, geez, this is more fun than a replay because you can keep playing, keep playing, keep playing for a dime. So that really got me going. And then what year do you think this was? That was probably in the around $75, $76. Okay. So then what was the next step? How did this thing start to ratchet up? Well, again, it was either in the Colmer's book or actually I think perhaps it was in Steve Kirk book that I had heard about Steve Cordack or read it that he designed several games of that vintage and that era. And when I was in Chicago with my parents on a business trip, it was a Sunday evening. We were at one of the hotels there. And I was going through a phone book and sure enough there's a Steve Cordack. So about nine o'clock at night, I called this number, not knowing who this person is. And I said, are you the guy that works for the Williams-Pinball company? His response was, yes I am. Oh, like us. So I mean, it was just a fluke. I just called Steve Cordack who was in the phone book. And I said, boy, I'd love to meet you. He says, come on down. So I talked to my parents and they're the following day. And I got a quick tour of the Williams factory. And again, this was during the mid-70s. And I met for the first time Steve Cordack. And how many times you think that happened to him? I don't think too often. I don't know, but it was just bizarre that I had to get to call him up. Again, it was a Sunday evening, 9 p.m. and he answered the phone. So it was pretty exciting for me to talk to the fellow. And I'd mention him, my love for these games, especially Williams games, especially games in the mid-60s. So he said, well, if you like my games, you'll love the games for the Norm Clark build. And I mentioned about post-tipers. Actually, that's Norm Clark's game. So I said, boy, I'd love to meet him. So that led to the introduction of Norm later on. Wow. Yeah, that's a good story. I like that one. Man, and you're lucky that his name was Cordack and not like John Smith. Right. Because John Smith, there would have been 12 million of them in the Chicago phone book. Yeah, that's unbelievable. All right. So then what was the next thing that happened? Well, again, the interest in Pimbal grew. And during the same time Steve Young had his Pimbal clutches quarterly going on. How did you find Steve Young? Steve. How did you find Steve Young? How did you know about Steve Young? Hmm. I mean, he didn't, you know, there was no internet. I think there was just an advertising of his publication somewhere. And you just saw it. Perhaps it was through Tallbirds book, Jim Tallbird. Maybe he had a little listing in the back of his book of other publications. I can't remember. I don't recall exactly how the connection came. Because it was a lot harder to find these people back in the 70s. I mean, you know, just to set up like kind of a network. You're right, especially classified ads, whatever. You found out these people. Right, right. Okay. So, during that same time, I heard about a club in Akronohal. It was a Pimbal Collector's Club, which at this time I had the three or four games I had. And I said, boy, this sounds interesting. Other people liked myself and enjoyed Pimbal machines. So I wanted to one of the meetings. One of the first guys I met was Dave Wright, who has been to some of the expos in the past. And I met Dave along with some other guys that we talked to our common interest Pimbal. So over the years, we kind of gave a name. You'll have Pimbal Collector's Club. I think we called it. And we would meet once a month at different areas. Primarily in Akron, this is where it started. And I was a became member of that club, and I would go to their meetings. And there I met Bill Kurtz. So it was during one of the meetings where I ever called, seen down it. They were eating some snacks. Just in the evening, there we had a little Pimbal meeting. And I said, wouldn't it be something if we could get together? Other people liked ourselves and also enjoyed Pimbal, our collectors and the players and enthusiasts. So at the time, most of the guys just kind of blew it off like, well, yeah, that's a pretty far-fetched idea. But Bill Kurtz, who is an author and a writer, kind of found the interest in my idea. And I said, why don't you help me in trying to pull some off and let's just see how much of an interest there is in this hobby of ours. Yeah, it's interesting that it was Bill Kurtz, because Bill is a little eccentric. Right. Well, this is during the time when he wasn't as efficient. And he was very much a part of the club's meetings. And he was very much in the Pimbal back then. Right. Right. Because now it seems to me, I met him somewhere. I bought a back glass for somebody. And I met him at a hotel. And he was somehow associated with some musical group, like the Shana Laza. Yeah, he's really big in the 60s music and 50s music as well. Yeah, I remember meeting him. And I seem like a nice guy, though. So this was like, how long did it take you to put you? Because the first expo was at 85, right? Yeah, well, this was before that. And I think it was either, I think it was in 84 when Bill and I drafted this. Basically, it was a questionnaire. Would you be interested in attending a National Pinball Collector's Convention? And we use our mailing list, Steve Young's mailing list from his Pinball Collector's Quarterly. So we put it in his publication. And the response was so overwhelming that there was perhaps a need to have such a show. How many people do you think that got sent out to at the time? You know, I really don't know. We got back, I don't know, let's say, a 6-70 response. I recall one, it was actually normal clock, even a response back. Somehow he'd heard of this publication. But all these different names I had never even heard of at the time, who are big names in the hobby today. But several of them sent back, yes, yes, yes. Should we have in Chicago, Los Angeles, where should we have it? Most of them said Chicago. Should we have in the springtime, summertime, most of them said the fall. So based on that response, Bill and I went ahead and started putting together a show. And I always felt, and I still feel the same way today, that you need someone, who is part of the industry to really drive the show. And I got a hold of my friend Steve Kortek. And I said Steve, I'm putting together this show. We're going to have seminars, we're going to have exhibitors. I said, would you, you know, being an inflow by Williams, do you think you could get Williams to exhibit at our show? Well, you know, at this time, you know, I had spoken to him so many times, that you know, he got tired of seeing me. And I don't know who he talked to, but he got the nod. He said, yes, they will, they will come. Well, at the time, Williams and some other manufacturers after were told me that they thought these shows of sorts were really a way through the time, because to invest money in a collector show was not a very good return. Their main focus was the operators and their trade shows. So that was luck, I guess, to get this to happen. So Steve agreed and then Steve, who in turn had hooked up with Norm Clark, I spoke to him and at the time Norm worked for Balli. And I said, hey, Norm, Williams is coming to our show. Well, Balli come to our show. Oh my God, you're like playing them against each other. Exactly. So Norm talked to whoever he talked to. They heard Williams was coming. So he said, well, if Williams is coming, we'll come. So here you go, someone totally out of the industry comes and starts this show from scratch. And I get two of the major players to join, or to come to exhibit. Well, meanwhile, through all of this, I had met Don Murphy and bought calls from him over the years. Yeah, because he was a wild Transformers and coils for Gottlieb, right? So I asked Don, to me to really make this show kick off. If I could get Elvin Gottlieb to speak it to Bankwood, I know this show is going to make it. It will be a success. So he gave me Elvin's phone number. I called him out of the blue. I said, you don't know me. My name is Robert Berkoff from Warren. I'm a pinball player and enthusiast. I want to do this pinball show. I'd like to have you be our bankwood speaker. So he seemed kind of in thrall that I would call him and kind of a quidative like, well, what's he thinking all about? So it just so happened, I was in Chicago about two weeks after I spoke to him with my folks again. And I said, can I stop by and see you touchy more in person? So he says, yeah, her is my home address. Stop on by. Wow. So the mere thought of this was, my bugger didn't meet this guy. He invites me, doesn't even know me if mad, because he comes to my home. And I went to see him on a Saturday afternoon. Here are the guys dressed in blue jeans. And I'm thinking of myself, these guys are being wearing a suit and a tie and all decked out to the 9th. And there is like a regular guy with blue jeans just casually says, yeah, come on in. So we talked for, I don't know, a good half hour or four five minutes. And I expressed my desire to have him speak it up back with it. And I told him about my enthusiasm for the games and so forth. I mentioned to him that Steve Kordek is coming with Williams, Norm Clark coming with Valley, who he knew both these guys. But when I was done with him, he said, you know, you're so enthusiastic and so motivated, how could I say no? Yes, I will agree to be your guest speaker. So slow but sure the show is coming together. Now wait, did, now so you got, Ballon Williams having displayed booths. Did Gottlieb not want to do a display booth? Again, once I worked up with Elven, then at that point in time, you know, I talked to the boss, getting his people to exhibit as well. I think by the time he was gone from the industry, I believe. But you know, he was up with the people who ever was and we got them to come as well. Yeah, because he had sold the Columbia Pictures, what 76? So it was slowly coming together. Well, me going back to the Ohio Pinball Clifters Club, one of the guys that was also a member of the club was Mike Pacek. And Mike at the time worked for the Barlow is the head of operations for the game room there called Punting Games. Right. So I had met Mike at the local mall. He was preparing one of the games there and just I happened to walk into the one day when he was repairing games. So we've talked and became friends and he was a member of this club. And at the time, Mike was a real cute box nut. Pinball was kind of like secondary in his mind. He really wasn't independent ball that much. But he came to all the shows that we talked and became close friends. So about six months into the planning of the expo, I asked Mike if he wanted to join us as the exhibit chairman or someone that could help us with the, you know, setting up the exhibits and handling that part of the show. And his response was sure because you know, he had a lot of contact with some of the people in the industry that I didn't know, including Ron Gold and some other guys and some of the operators. And this is perhaps I can help you know that I hope getting someone involved in and exhibiting as well. So all of a sudden that we had three guys involved with the show and maybe this is say it went off without a hitch and it was extremely successful. How big was the first 85 show compared to say we had about 100 people show up. Oh, okay. So pretty small in 10 its numbers, right? Yeah, but what made it fun was just finally meeting everybody because like you mentioned Joshua Clay back then, the only way to communicate was through typing a letter or sending a cassette to your friend to listen to. So to finally meet Steve young face to face Don Murphy face to face which is like mine, because all you know we would talk on the phone and write letters to these guys all the time. But we finally had a chance to meet these people in person. So I recall that rich counter came to our show and people said that was pretty unbelievable that rich would come because he hates flying. But somehow he made an effort to come to our show. He was there Russ Jensen and several of them. There were other notable and I recall Dick Blue Shell being there and him saying it was a pinball love in because they were just so much enthusiasm generated from that event that people that had spoken the phone to and written to each other so long. Finally met face to face. It was truly a special event. And the format of expo back in 85 really isn't much different than it is today, right? Right. And what's so crazy Joshua Clay is that before even doing the expo I belong to and I still belong to a group of fireworks enthusiasts. And they it's called the PGI and it's for fireworks. That's like you myself that get together once a once a year and a convention the last about a week. It's like week long fireworks country. You got it buddy. Where does that help? Every year is somewhere different, but typically at that west, Fargo North Dakota, July, Wyoming. I based the expo on a similar format that they did, which was basically seminars during the day and then an exhibit hall and then even the of course they had the fire versus place. But I based a lot of my ideas on the format of the expo on what they did and what was successful for them was the was the fireworks thing. I mean you said they had seminars. They have like how to create on you know fireworks. I like to try to make the stars how to build shells really. Yeah, it's it's far advanced even the expo because they have seminars for a whole solid week. It's from morning till like nine to five every day they have full seminars. And do you still go to this? I took that. Have you ever made any of your own fireworks? No, I never did, but I got involved early on with that organization as being in the auctioneer. So now you know Joshua Clay. Yeah, I got the skills when I became the auctioneer at the expo. Yeah, the the the fainting auctioneer at the bank with that could get anybody to bid on any piece of junk and get crazy money for it for the children's hospital, right? Yeah, they make the make a wish foundation in this past year. As you know, we had that that that's sanding block that went for over a hundred dollars. Yeah, oh my God. So kind of things happen all the time with the if this fire was conventional. I'm always getting a lot of money. I recall one of the fire's invention someone donated a pack of cracker as it came from the Middle East. And I think we sold off for 75 dollars. You know, I just kind of give you a little information as if you haven't heard this before, but I've heard that you're just a little too aggressive at the bank. So I'm trying to get bids that sometimes people get mad at you. Is this true? I want to put a reperson told me that and it's interesting. I don't know if that is the case. I think you're more people because a lot of people find the aggressor to be more of a non-local and comical release. Yeah, and I don't know. I, it's a difficult thing because some people look at it as intrusion on their privacy or other people just feel like it's all in the fun of the evening. Do you want to talk about the pin geek hat? Yeah, that was interesting. Thanks the help of Mr. Frederick Young. The main of many voices he happened to grab the geek pin geek hat in a very swift motion. Yeah, this is the hat that that's kind of like eclipses his half of his head and has the propeller on the top. Right. Very rare. I'm sure part of his childhood with youth. Yeah, very rare and thank God it is. It's not going to hurt to me and with the idea that I could possibly auction off but it's like some people with they need that security clutch and I had to get it back to him because I knew that he would be in tears. Yeah, yeah, I heard he was an emotional rack after that. That's right. Yeah, we don't want to cause any, you know. But the auction is all in fun. You know, for anyone who's been offended, I apologize, but for those of you that enjoyed it, I mean that's the whole idea of how it just looks like. It's fun. It's fun. And Rob, you just keep going on offending people. I'm okay with it. Yeah, well, you know, even this, I never saw Gary Stern get so involved in the auction like it did this year when he got his cronies. He's put up $1,000 for the make-a-wish auction. So that was pretty impressive. You mean the people that worked for him put up $1,000? He put up $1,000. He got Tommy Neiman to put up $1,000. And he got, what's the other fellow's name? He should be with Valley. I can't think of it now. But they all put up $1,000. Whatever it was, I was auctioning the time. It went like $3,000, $4,000. So it means all for a good cause. Okay, we're going to take a break from talking with Rob Burke of the Pinball Expo, and we'll be back in just a moment after these. Top guest is brought to you by Pinball Life. Give your Pinball Machine new life with parts from Pinball Life. We ship Pinball Parts worldwide. Pinball Life is located in the Great City of Chicago, and their phone number is 773-202-8758. We have an open door Ryan Policky, and you are welcome to call us with your questions and concerns. 80M-5DM Central Time, Monday through Friday. Their website is at pinballlife.com. Pinball Life. No hassles, just the parts you need fast. Okay, we're back talking with Rob Burke of the Pinball Expo. You know, Joe Camacose is very much an advocate of the Expo, and the early years he was extremely, extremely helpful. Joe Camacose, of course, was the guy that basically helped start up Data East, and he's also worked at Williams. He's worked at Gottlieb. Gottlieb's worked just about everywhere. I don't know why, but Joe took such a liking or a fast nation with me in the Expo that, especially in the early years, I'll never forget when this is a good story about the whole idea behind Baby in the Hole in Harvey Heiss. Harvey Heiss courses the designer for Gento. A lot of people don't know about Gento. He was extremely enlightening, and in the early years of the Expo, people just love to hear this guy talk. He had never knew what would come out of his voice next, because he had some profanity and some of the craziest, ex-rated stories. He was just so much fun. Again, he was in his mid-80s, I think, when he came to Expo. He had spoken in one of the seminars about something he had built for Gento, which you know about clearly these roll downs, which were extremely successful, and he had a dream or a vision of a game called Baby in the Hole, which he played as a child, and incorporating that game of Baby in the Hole into a roll down. Joe Kamenkao happened to be at that seminar, and Dawgon of Giotta said, Rob List built this game for Harvey. Along with Ed Sibola and Sarah Bagnolia and the staff at Daddy East at the time, they developed software from scratch. They built the game along with Kevin O'Connor, and he did the artwork at Grottis, or a very, very low price. A lot of things were donated. A lot of time was donated. In the following year, this game was presented to Harvey Heiss, and some of the websites you see him look at his game with both his hands clutched to his cheeks like, oh my gosh. Right, I've seen that picture. It's on the Expo webpage. He had Joshua Clay to be there for that event. It almost brought you to tears because I mean this guy in his mid 80s, he just went down to his knees, like, hold this thing, like, my baby, it finally happened, my dream. What happened to the game? It was just exciting. What happened to the game? I had the game to this day. I had the game to hear my home. And they only made one? Yeah, it was only one piece was made. Okay, was there any, I mean, could it, is it something that would, could have been commercially successful tonight? Well, I mean, the role of Oz I played in, and I own a few role downs. You know, there's quite a bit of skill to it, but what the baby, the whole, there was a saucer shaped configuration in the front of it. But it was, it was constructed in such a way that that ball would, would sometimes roll in that saucer for the longest time. You kind of like a toilet, toilet bowl roll type thing, is that what you mean? Well, it rolled down and then instead of going into a, into a hole at the end of the track, like most of the role downs do, it went to a configuration that had several hexagon shaped saucers that were inverted. So the ball would roll onto it and it would, it would almost go in one saucer, but because it was a very small lip on it, it would, it would kind of roll almost into the other one. And I could possibly be perhaps bringing it back to X-Bug again, but it just, I don't know if it would make it commercially. Okay. Now just to be clear, because a lot of people don't know what a role down is. A role down game started, well you say primarily in the 50s, and Ganko was the king of role downs. And what, basically what it is, is it's a pinball play field with, with no, no holes except at the very top of the play field, the part of the play field furthest from the player. And the play field is angled, reverse angled. You know, not like angled towards the player, like a pinball machine, but angled away from the player. And you basically try and roll the ball down into the appropriate hole to gain some objective to the game. Like when I was over at your house, you had a Ganko roll down that you would bought, like, new in the box, is that what I'm hearing? Right, that came from John Bolotta. Okay, what was the story on that? A good Bill Kurtz, you know, through all his travels, I heard about this guy. And he had been operating against forever, and he had a warehouse full of old games still in the original boxes. So, and I really can't recall what year it was, but we'll say somewhere in the, in the maybe early ages, or 80s perhaps, but I want to see him. And he had several games doing the box. One of which I bought from was a Godlob Rockstar. And he also had this game from Ganko. Now, imagine, here we are in the 80s, and there was a box sitting in his warehouse, and there was a whole punch to it, because see what it was. And on the side of the box it said, sweet 21. And imagine Joshua Clay to buy a game in the, in the, in the, in the, in the earlier mid 80s, still new in the box, made by Ganko in the late 50s. So that game sat in storage for 30 years. Wow. So when I saw it, it looked actually boring to me. I'd never seen a roll down before, but it was Ganko. And I was, I was fascinated by Ganko, you know, through, um, hearing about through, through Harvey Heiss and Steve Cordex. So I bought the game pretty much sight and seen it. Didn't even know I was buying. And that game sat in, in my, uh, warehouse for a year or two before I find the site to pull it out. And when I first brought out, I, I never saw a roll down. I never even played a roll down. But to this day, it's probably one of those probably pieces of my basement. Yeah, just to kind of back up, well, even a little more. Harvey Heiss was, of course, the main game designer for Ganko during the 50s. And Steve Cordack worked for Harvey, right? Yep. Okay. Even before the 50s, he was there ever even that. Right. And just a kind of even bring it back to thing, you, you are a big Ganko fan. You liked the Ganko games. Right. Okay. Now Ganko was known for some really kind of wild and cool games. They weren't, they weren't known so much for their pinball stuff during the 50s, but, but their arcade games are what they're really known for. And of course, the roll downs. Now the roll downs, you know, the reason why I would personally, I would say that they were very popular is because they were kind of were an easy game to gamble on. Right. You know, I mean, like your particular game is basically a blackjack game. That's right. It's a 20, a game of 21. And you're trying to get what is it between 16 to 21 without busting? That's right. Right. And, you know, I've, I've got some video of, of you playing it. It was kind of interesting. And you said that at the time when I was interviewing for you for that, you said that there's been a number of spirit it games played on this. Oh, yeah. I recall that one of the Japanese fellows, Messiah or Gucci had come to my home and on his way to X-Foy, he thought about it, see me and visit me. And he got on that game and I couldn't get him out of there. He must have played a game for a good hour by himself. And he was so fascinated by it. And I had never seen anyone this, but he actually helped the, the cue ball with his left finger. And then with his right finger, he flipped it with the backward English. So he was able to control where that ball was going. I've never such a sausage of crazy in my life. You know, I've noticed that when I first started going in the expo in the early 90s, there was a large presence of Japanese collectors. But I haven't seen him so much lately. Did something happen? They still come, Joshua Clay every year. I mean, let's face it. It's an expensive round for these guys to come to the expo. But there's several guys that still come on a regular basis every year. And it's a hit and miss how many show up. But I say in the past 10 years, we've probably averaged three to four Japanese players every year coming up from the show. And from how many different countries do people come to expo? That's a good question too, because even the very first expo, we had a couple foreign players who do show up. And in fact, the first convention Gary Flower showed up from Robert Englunds. And of all our foreign attendees, he has been to every expo. So we actually gave him a plaque. I think a year ago to commemorate him for that event. But we've had him from Japan, from Italy. I believe France. Certainly the Netherlands, I know. Yeah, Belgium, very popular. Very popular, right? Germany. Germany, the pinball association has been down. Of course Japan, Canada. Quite a large variety of people. And it's amazing. A lot of some of us through word of mouth, of course, through the internet. Now, you've noticed that there's been in the last five years an explosion of shows. You guys were definitely the original show. And when did you notice that it used to be for a long time that you were the only show? When did they start to actually, where you were getting people? Yeah, I'm not mistaken. I think it was the fifth year of expo when the first show came in Phoenix. I can't recall the name of the show off me. What dangerous stand? Was he doing that? Yeah, perhaps he was one of the guys behind it. But in the beginning we were kind of offended by it because someone was stealing our thunder. But it was only a matter of time before, I guess in a way it was a compliment because people realized that it's a good show, it's a fun show. Let's do one more regionally because not everybody can come to Chicago. And these shows are flourishing. Now, what happened with Bill Kurtz? He obviously didn't stay on. It's you and Paisak doing the show now. At some point he split off and decided not to help with the show anymore. When did that happen? Well, unfortunately he and Mike had a very similar interest and that was collecting pinball flyers. So I think something developed through that that strained the relationship and that probably was the beginning of it. I had invited Bill to come back to my show. I think for the 20th anniversary I asked him if he wanted to be our guest but he declined. I guess he lost his interest in supporting the expo which was unfortunate because he was very much a part of the early years. Now, how many years was he working with you guys? I'd say I'm guessing three or four years, I believe. Yeah, Mike's kind of an interesting guy. If you're either best friends with him or worst enemies or sometimes it just isn't a lot of middle ground with Mike. Well, you know, we've all have our personalities and some people probably don't get along with me or think I'm crazy but let's face it together. We've put up this show for so many years and it keeps getting stronger. No matter what anyone thinks it still takes several people to put this show together and we all add our two cents to it in one form or the other. When you first started planning your show the first year and you guys are in Ohio and you're having a show in Chicago, that must have made it very difficult to do this. Yeah, that's a good point and I really don't know why I picked a hotel near the airport. I guess figuring that people like myself got to fly in and fly into O'Hare, Rose Mon in the city of choice. So I don't really know how I picked that holiday in. The holiday was our first year or first two years. And that's a good question. I'm not really sure how I gravitated towards that site but like anything else, once the idea and plans were starting to come together to have this show, I had gone to that particular hotel and somehow worked out a plan to make it happen. And what's crazy is in my mind after the first expo I was done with expo. I had accomplished my goal which was to honor my heroes who were the designers. And after I'd show it went off so well I felt that mission was accomplished. I'm done. So going into 86 I had no plans to do a second show. And I'd say about six months into that year I started getting phone calls or one to the next show. And I'd say I have no plans to do a show. Oh you got it. You crazed what do you mean? So it was a six month into the following year that I find the site that well, okay let's try it one more time. And as you see we've never stopped since. Right. Right. And they've always been in the fall basically in October or November. Right. And that second year was also a very memorable show because we recognized Steve Cordack. And I got various people who had known Steve or had been associated with him in one form they had to come up and entose him. And it was extremely well received. It was a lot of fun and it was certainly taken back by so I would call Harvey Heiss when he came up and sent some accolades. Steve was whispering on the side. Keep it down. Don't say it. Don't say any bad stories. Don't say anything. So I got a big kick out of that because Harvey Steve worked together. So I'm sure that they experienced many escapades together over the years. And some of them which I don't think Steve wanted hardware to broadcast. So he says keep it down. Keep it down. And also I should note that the Gengho got bought out by Chicago coin wasn't 58 right. And at that time then those two guys go and work for Chicago coin. I recall speaking to Cordack I believe right around that time he went to work for Valley. And he works for Valley for only years is Steve Cordack only for a year and then he ended up in Williams in I think in 60. Because when Harry Williams was going out Cordack came in and was like the key designer actually really really like the only designer I believe in 1960. Now Harvey Heiss went to work for a company out of Miami floor that made like Kitty Marigold rounds. But Harvey was also involved in the development of Piper the Clown. So somewhere in my notes I have the exact recollection of how that all came about but that he was also involved in that. Now why didn't those guys stay with Chicago coin who bought Gengho? Well there must have been something happened in there that there was some friction in terms of friction because a lot of those guys left. Right. Yeah I don't know for sure what was happening on that but that's a good question to find out. Now Harvey designed some of the classic arcade games from Gengho too like the High Fly baseball, the Champion baseball, the Motor Rama. But didn't he did those games too right? Well you know it's interesting Joshua Clay but I recently got through eBay the instruction manual for Motor Rama. And inside there was a letter addressed to your dear operator and basically expressed the history behind the Motor Rama. I was in development for a year and a half in California and so forth. And it was signed by the Chief Engineer at the time Steve Cordack. Really? Yeah. So I told this, gives him phrases Steve just recently and he was very fascinated here that I had this letter. He actually asked for a copy that letter. He really remembers me writing it. Wow. So Steve worked for Harvey right? That is correct. Okay. So Harvey had his hand and obviously all these games and it sounds like Steve did too. I'm sorry. What's that question? So Steve and Harvey had their hand in all these classic 50s EM arcade games from Gengho. Absolutely. You know because for instance the High Fly baseball and the Champion baseball were unique in pitching bats. You know at the time William was making pitching bats you know every year they had a new model and they were sold very well. The production numbers were fairly high compared to the Gengho games. But the Genghoes were much more unusual to use bigger balls. They're kind of like a hollow plastic and like you were actually using a miniaturized wooden bat to hit the ball out of the air unlike the Williams where it was actually like a pinball that came down and you were hitting it like a flipper. Let's play this face it. I feel in my mind you are a collector extraordinaire and especially in arcade games and you have a pretty good knowledge of it. But you got to admit that Genghoes games had a flare about them. They were like a step above. They had some really intriguing games with a lot of unusual twists and they were very innovative for their time. Yeah I totally agree. The only problem I have with them is how hard they are to find. If anybody has any Genghoes 50s arcade E.M. Games for sale, do not call Rob. Call Joshua Clay not Rob. Give 100 dollars more. No I'll give 100 dollars more. And that would be easy because I know that you don't pay a lot for it. Actually you do. I was amazed you bought a motor ram. I got that from Mike Paysack and he got it for a very good price but he had this collection for ages and being a Gengho lover it took about three years but I finally got him to agree to give it up. Now you have a Gengho 2 player basketball which is probably arguably the best E.M. Arcade game of the 1950s. Period of all manufacturers. The Gengho 2 player basketball. You have one of those too right? Right. Now how do you feel about that game? Well you know it's fine but the first game I owned was the Chicago coin single player basketball game. Right the one from the late 40s. So I own that one as well but the Gengho wanted to definitely much more appealing and a lot more enjoyable. Well the Gengho 2 player playing head to head. Right. You have more control over the players in the Chicago coin. Basically you can't steer the player right or left. You can only think your judging is or controlling is how hard he throws the ball. Again Calei why was Gengho so innovative? It's time and time again you know it just shows there was more thinking involved in all their pieces. Now that's another question is was the 2 player basketball was that a Harvey game or a quartet game or a collaboration game? Yeah you know I'll have to find an answer out but I believe it was Harvey as well. That's Harvey. During that time as well there was more of a brainstorming kind of situation Gengho than anyone actually being involved solely with the design of these games. Right. You know I've got another one called Jet Pilot which is the same cabinet as Mortarama. Right. Which is kind of an interesting game where you're actually flying an airplane around you know it's kind of like a tethered airplane around in the circle but you've got to land it on particular cities kind of like landed on the right piece of the pie so to speak. And then the one that I really like to find that I had no luck getting is the Gengho Space Age. Which again is a Mortarama style cabinet but that one have you ever played that game? No I haven't. Yeah I mean it's hard to even find pictures of that one. I have another Gengho game which is very enjoyable. It's a ski ball game but it's called Skill Ball. Right. I've played that. It's a very simple game but you know they've added a little novelty to it and that is if you hit the 50 when a certain ball is lit you get a free ball back for it. Right. But again there was some innovation there and someone really put some thought into that to make that skill ball a bit more enjoyable and much more of a traction by having that free ball possibility. Right. Right. Are there any other Gengho games that you've collected you know through the years that you've been playing? So I've got that one called Double Action which was kind of like a pinball game with a... It's got the back glasses got like a nails where the ball just kind of goes and very Slash at the bottom. It's sort of like that golden nugget kind of idea. Right. Right. Any other ones? Well I've got some of their Gengho games which I don't have any setup in the basement. Yeah they were a big Gengho game actually. Very big. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like their Gengames? You know I don't recall them that much. I've bought the games when I recall playing them about yourself. You know I haven't played a lot of them either. I find with those Dale style Gengames which all the Gengho ones basically are modeled after. And just the letter listeners know what Dale style Gengame, Dale came up with the idea of having kind of a video game style cabinet with a set of mirrors to give the illusion of depth. So you know prior to that Gengames if you wanted a six feet or an eight foot shooting range you know you made the cabinet six or eight feet long. Well then Dale said okay we're going to stand this up on the end like a video game. Well obviously there weren't video games but that's how the cabinet kind of looks. And then you use the player looks through a mirror at 45 degrees. It's another mirror at 45 degrees. It goes down the height of the cabinet. It gives that illusion of depth in a much smaller package and that's known as a Dale style Gengame. And basically all the manufacturers copied that after Dale came out with it after World War II. And all the Gengho games are that variety. I found that Gengames in general seemed to really hit their stride in the late 60s or early 70s. And of course that was long after all the ground had been broken by Dale and Gengho. You know Bally and Williams really didn't make that many Gengames. Williams made a few in the 50s but it was really Gengho that was cracking out the Gengames in the 50s. You know the people listen to this broadcast they have to really take a second look if they haven't already. And perhaps collecting or enjoying arcade games because I started out clicking pinballs and pinballs only. But the more arcade games I've got the more I'm fascinated by them. I don't say they have the player pill where you can play them hours on end like pinballs. But it's still an interest to them in part of the history of this whole industry that makes them quite novel and collectible. Also if you like working on pinball machines you'll love working on the EM arcade games because you'll find that the imagination and the features that they came up with using basically a bunch of toothpicks, bubble gum and paper clips. You know I mean they're not obviously not really using that stuff but that's kind of when you get at the end of the day you look at this and say what they did they did so much was so little. You know it's just it's amazing. But just brilliant minds back then. Oh incredible and just incredible. You know and Gengco was also the first company to use maybe one at the first but certainly during the 50s I think they were the only company to use DC voltage. That's right. For all their coils opposed to using AC which is what everybody else used. And Steve Corder who is still loving still brags about that fact. So that's why their games are still playing today and they're still doing doing so well. Yeah the use of selenium rectifier. That's correct. Have you interviewed Steve Corder yet? You know that's coming up. Good I think that would be very enjoyable because you know it's unfortunate but a lot of the probably a lot of your listeners are newer players and collectors and they just can't really appreciate what these guys have brought to this industry. And to have Steve still living it's just truly amazing. Yeah because he's well into his 90s. Oh yeah I think I believe it's 95. Yeah I talked to him on the phone the other day and I mean he is clear and a clear of mind and speech it was like. It was like talking to somebody in their 30s you know what I mean? Yeah you know I would like to suggest that perhaps you have a double a two hour meeting with him because maybe you can break up the interview speak. And I think there's so much information he can provide for you. Oh yeah I mean I'm sure that guys got you know stories that just don't stop. You know I've never really heard any of his story so they're all going to be fresh to me. Yeah his love of the industry is just amazing. And you know again realize with me starting the expo you know I was a complete stranger and he had open arms. So yeah come on let me tell you more what else do you want to know? It's part of this history that one of the days would be gone. Was he one of the most enthusiastic you know people in the industry that you ever had to deal with? Well the honest with the most enthusiastic was Joe Kamikaw. Really? For me anyways in especially those early years he was just always there he would do everything he could and then some. And you know in the early years of the expo it was Joe's idea to bring entertainment to the expo during the banquet. The mere idea that was something I really didn't think of but he always gave it his 100% 100% to try to help the expo and he had no monetary benefit from it but he was just so into it that he did everything to help see it to succeed. Now speaking of monetary on the first expo that you put on did you actually make any money or was it a losing proposition? Yeah I think for the most part we've just bad broke even but I guess that's pretty good considering you know we did seem from scratch. You know as a point of reference back then the full package was $35. Right. So it just shows how tires are changed but um... And you did the holiday in how many years did you stay at the holiday in? Two years. Two years and then you went to the Ramana? Right. Now I remember that you stayed at the Ramana for as long as you did because of a contractual agreement with the union people or the fact that you didn't have to have the union people there. Well there was a non-union hotel so that was a plus for us because bringing these machines in and out if we had to use a union a bit of it would be extremely expensive because at one time we thought we'd go out of the high rate to see. But um... it was a union hotel and they even informed us that you know you're going to pay a lot of money to have them. They have to touch every machine that comes in and out and it just seemed like it would be a problem so that's really the way we were there to close their doors. Right and they were like in the area I think they were the only non-union hotel right? Well there's actually a few more because where we are now the windom is also a non-union. Right because if it was a union hotel if you wanted to move a game from your car into the Expo Hall actually the union guys would have to do it right? Exactly. Yeah. Right so that means and also what about the electricians for because it's power being a problem at the hotels? Not too much and we had to pay for it of course but overall it hasn't. Do you have to actually bring in additional circuits for the Expo? No, no that really hasn't been an issue. In case it was some circuit breakers issues but the most part the power provided for us for the hotel has been sufficient and hasn't been an issue. Now when did the tours start at Expo? Well let's do a couple little history things. One thing is the flip out. The flip out was an idea of Mike Sumlani and actually he gave it the name flip out but the first flip out champion believe it or not was Steve Engel from Mayfair and Music. Wow. So it just showed you what it was like but I mean it was in its infancy stage and the one thing we tried to do in those early years was Mike Faceback being a collector of these prototype games would always use the prototype game he had his collection as the tournament game for the finals. Now for flip out we're using one machine for the first one or did you have multiples? We always used one machine and it was the length machine produced by the manufacturer who was also the manufacturer we used for our tour. They always coincided. But you didn't have a whole row of these machines. Oh we always had servo-arm. I mean I don't recall in the first year we had three or five but we always had servo-arm for people to play. Right. Right. And were the prizes were one of the machines originally weren't they? Yes. Because were the manufacturers donating them, donating that one to Steve? Yep. If that's the time they did and that again that helped. You know there was so many things that just came together that those first couple of years to help make this show a success and that was also you know because they're supporting and they're donation. You know we were able to give these games away to the winner of the tournament. So the first year that angle one what machine did he went? Pinbot. He won pinbot. Yeah. And Williams donated that. I found that mistaken. You ever did. So a brand new pinbot he got. Yep. Oh wow. _(Acquisition: whisper_import, Enrichment: v1)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: cff06f8d-9f0a-41d4-80a4-bd2158216e4a*