# The Pinball Show Ep 163 BONUS: The Nordman Speaks: A Look Into Dennis Nordman's Exit From American Pinball And What's To Come **Source:** Pinball Show Patreon Feed **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2024-10-23 **Duration:** 20m 46s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://www.patreon.com/posts/pinball-show-ep-114560886 --- ## Analysis Dennis Nordman posts a detailed rebuttal to David Fix's May 2024 Pinball News interview, disputing Fix's characterization of his departure from American Pinball. Nordman claims he was not laid off but instead walked out after AP offered an unacceptable contract and threatened termination due to cash flow issues. The Pinball Show hosts discuss the implications for AP's future, expressing skepticism about the company's viability and questioning why they prioritized Barbecue over Nordman's unlicensed (presumed Whitewater 2) game that was further along in development. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Dennis Nordman was not laid off; he walked out after AP offered an unacceptable contract and threatened termination if he didn't accept it, citing insufficient funds. — _Dennis Nordman's direct statement read on Pinball Show episode; explicit quote from his post_ - [HIGH] Nordman's unreleased game (presumed Whitewater 2) was further along in development than Barbecue when Fix decided to prioritize Barbecue for production. — _Dennis Nordman's statement: 'It was way ahead of Barbecue in development, but Mr. Fix decided to put Barbecue in front of it.'_ - [HIGH] Fix promised to bring Nordman back to finish his game in June or July 2024, which did not happen. — _Dennis Nordman's statement: 'Mr. Fix told other people at AP that he would bring me back to finish my game number two in June or July. Of course, that didn't happen.'_ - [HIGH] Nordman has six or seven unproduced games at various companies: three at Deep Root, one at Chicago Gaming, three at American Pinball, and one flipping whitewood at another location. — _Dennis Nordman's statement listing his unproduced portfolio_ - [HIGH] Nordman is currently working on a new game of his own design with two other industry professionals with the goal of selling it to a manufacturer. — _Dennis Nordman's closing statement about current work_ - [MEDIUM] American Pinball is a 'dead company walking' with no viable path to recovery despite Cuphead being in development. — _Pinball Show host opinion: 'I don't see any path to victory for them. I think this is dead company walking.'_ - [MEDIUM] American Pinball lost its former reputation for good build quality and now has flipper, power supply, and other reliability issues. — _Pinball Show host: 'They used to have this perception of good build quality... They've lost that.'_ - [MEDIUM] Cuphead is a niche theme that does not appeal to broad market audiences and cannot carry AP to profitability. — _Pinball Show host speculation about Cuphead's commercial viability given AP's weakened position_ - [MEDIUM] American Pinball may be sustained by contract manufacturing work (Ametron circuit boards, Polycade) rather than pinball sales. — _Pinball Show host speculation: 'maybe their contract manufacturing, maybe that's what's keeping them going'_ - [MEDIUM] Wide speculation in the community is that Nordman's unreleased AP game is Whitewater 2. — _Pinball Show host: 'The wide speculation is the game that's a theme everyone is familiar with is Whitewater 2.'_ ### Notable Quotes > "None of this is true. I have no contract with American Pinball. AP was not honoring my original contract, so I told Fix I was going to work from home more days per week." > — **Dennis Nordman**, ~0:05:00 > _Opening rebuttal directly contradicting Fix's characterization of layoff vs. contract negotiation_ > "They offered me a contract that was completely unacceptable. They said if I did not accept that contract, I would be terminated. I asked why, and they said they didn't have enough money to pay me." > — **Dennis Nordman**, ~0:06:30 > _Key claim that AP's decision was financially motivated, not performance-related_ > "It is an unlicensed theme, but it's a theme that everyone is familiar with. I order. And it's an amazing playfield, and it was way ahead of Barbecue in development, but Mr. Fix decided to put Barbecue in front of it." > — **Dennis Nordman**, ~0:05:45 > _Confirms existence of a more developed game shelved in favor of Barbecue; hints at Whitewater 2_ > "I walked out. That's where it stands today. I have nothing to do with American Pinball." > — **Dennis Nordman**, ~0:07:00 > _Clear statement of finality regarding his departure_ > "I don't see any path to victory for them. I think this is dead company walking." > — **Pinball Show Host**, ~0:30:00 > _Blunt assessment of AP's viability; signals widespread industry skepticism_ > "Barbecue should never have been made. It should have never been made." > — **Pinball Show Host**, ~0:28:00 > _Strong condemnation of prioritization decision; implies Barbecue was a strategic failure_ > "They have to come out with – they have to check the boxes of – because theme doesn't check a box for Cuphead – it has to be beautiful. The layout has to work not only well, exceptionally well, and it has to have features, mods, or toys that are substantially better than 75 percent of what's on the market." > — **Pinball Show Host**, ~0:36:00 > _Articulates the high bar Cuphead must clear to succeed given AP's market position and theme liability_ > "They used to have this perception of good build quality. Yes, they did. They've lost that." > — **Pinball Show Host**, ~0:39:00 > _Confirms degradation of AP's build quality reputation; major market signal_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Dennis Nordman | person | Legendary pinball designer, formerly at American Pinball; now working on independent game project with industry partners; maintains unproduced game designs at multiple companies | | David Fix | person | Former EVP/co-founder American Pinball; gave interview to Pinball News (May 2024) describing Nordman's departure; characterized by hosts as inconsistent and prone to mischaracterizing events | | American Pinball | company | Pinball manufacturer in crisis; lost build quality reputation; recent failures include Barbecue and Galactic Tank Force; sustained by parent company Ametron's contract manufacturing work; Cuphead in development | | Barbecue | game | Recently released American Pinball game; widely criticized as poorly designed and prioritized over more developed Nordman design; symbolic of AP's strategic failures | | Galactic Tank Force | game | American Pinball game with unique single-ramp layout; commercial underperformance; hosts debate whether AP pulled support too early or game deserved cancellation | | Cuphead | game | Upcoming American Pinball release; niche theme; community concern about viability given AP's market position; purportedly has good playfield design despite theme liability | | Whitewater 2 | game | Presumed identity of Nordman's unlicensed game shelved by AP; community speculation based on theme clues and Nordman's emphasis on universal familiarity | | Deep Root Pinball | company | Company with unproduced Nordman designs; referenced as having insufficient claim to his work; Robert Mueller mentioned in context of design rights | | Chicago Gaming | company | Company holding one unproduced Nordman whitewood design | | Ametron | company | Parent company of American Pinball; sustains AP through contract manufacturing of circuit boards and other products; hosts speculate about motivation to continue supporting AP | | Polycade | product | All-in-one wall arcade unit; American Pinball was advertising and promoting at Expo; potential revenue source for AP beyond pinball manufacturing | | Multimorphic | company | Referenced as business model analogy: P3 platform sales fund passion project P3 rock development; Jerry's passion contrasted with perceived Ametron apathy toward AP | | Stern Pinball | company | Mentioned in context of Nordman's Elvira contract work; referenced as model of contract-based designer relationships | | Pinball Show | media | Podcast hosting this episode; provides platform for Nordman statement; hosts provide critical industry analysis | | Pinball News | media | Published David Fix interview in May 2024 (2:19:38 timestamp) that prompted Nordman's rebuttal | | Spooky Pinball | company | Referenced as having reliability issues but producing games with strong design appeal; compared favorably to AP in terms of design execution | | Hot Wheels | game | American Pinball release; launched during pandemic; criticized for uninspired layout and extended production timeline | | Legends of Valhalla | game | American Pinball release; based on existing company design; criticized as poor design choice with long production timeline | | Houdini | game | American Pinball game; hosts reference quality issues and reliability problems; represents era when AP had better build reputation | | Joe Balzer | person | Designer referenced alongside Nordman as creator of single-ramp games in modern era | | Jerry | person | Owner/figure at Multimorphic; characterized as passionate about P3 platform continuation | | Robert Mueller | person | Referenced in context of Deep Root Pinball design rights; hosts unclear about his specific role | ### Topics - **Primary:** Dennis Nordman's departure from American Pinball and contractual dispute, American Pinball's strategic failures, prioritization decisions, and decline, Unproduced game designs and their fate across multiple manufacturers, American Pinball's viability, future, and Cuphead as potential last chance - **Secondary:** David Fix's credibility and characterization of events, Theme selection and its role in pinball game commercial success, American Pinball's degraded build quality and reliability reputation, Industry business models and sustainability (Ametron contract manufacturing vs. pinball sales) ### Sentiment **Negative** (0.15) — Strong criticism of American Pinball's leadership decisions, strategic direction, and product quality. Sympathy expressed toward Dennis Nordman's situation. Frustration with complacency in pinball industry. Limited optimism about any recovery path for AP. Hosts maintain professional tone but express clear skepticism about company viability. ### Signals - **[personnel_signal]** Dennis Nordman departed American Pinball under disputed circumstances; Fix claims layoff/contract restructuring, Nordman claims forced exit due to unacceptable contract terms and cash flow issues (confidence: high) — Nordman's direct statement and Fix's May 2024 Pinball News interview (cited at 2:19:38) - **[business_signal]** American Pinball characterized as 'dead company walking' with no clear path to profitability; hosts question whether company will survive beyond Cuphead release (confidence: medium) — Host statement: 'I don't see any path to victory for them. I think this is dead company walking. I've thought that for years.' - **[product_strategy]** AP prioritized Barbecue (incomplete/low-quality) over Nordman's more developed unlicensed game, widely seen as strategic misstep (confidence: high) — Nordman: 'It was way ahead of Barbecue in development, but Mr. Fix decided to put Barbecue in front of it.' Host agreement and criticism of decision. - **[product_concern]** American Pinball lost its historical reputation for good build quality; recent machines show flipper and power supply issues (confidence: high) — Host: 'They used to have this perception of good build quality. Yes, they did. They've lost that.' Examples: GTF and Houdini QA issues. - **[machine_intel]** Nordman has unproduced game designs at multiple manufacturers (3 at Deep Root, 1 Chicago Gaming, 3 at AP) representing significant lost portfolio (confidence: high) — Nordman's statement detailing: 'three at Deep Root, one flipping whitewood, one full-size foam core Nordmanite... one at Chicago Gaming... three more at American Pinball' - **[design_philosophy]** Discussion of Galactic Tank Force's unique single-ramp layout in modern era; hosts note Joe Balzer and Nordman also favor this design choice (confidence: medium) — Host: 'Who does that? I mean, Nordman. I do. And Joe Balzer... Joe Balzer. Hello.' - **[market_signal]** Cuphead theme is niche and cannot drive sales alone; game must exceed expectations in layout, features, and build quality to achieve even modest 500-unit sales target (confidence: medium) — Host analysis: theme 'doesn't check a box for Cuphead,' requiring exceptional execution in all other areas - **[business_signal]** American Pinball potentially sustained by parent company Ametron's contract manufacturing (circuit boards, Polycade arcade units) rather than pinball sales (confidence: medium) — Host speculation: 'maybe their contract manufacturing, maybe that's what's keeping them going' and observation of Polycade promotion at Expo - **[industry_signal]** Hosts criticize broader complacency in pinball industry regarding game design standards and reliance on theme/art over mechanical innovation (confidence: medium) — Host: 'complacency in pinball is ridiculous... layout alone with beautiful artwork and a theme is just not going to work anymore' - **[rumor_hype]** Community wide speculation that Nordman's unlicensed AP game is Whitewater 2 based on 'theme everyone is familiar with' clue (confidence: medium) — Host: 'The wide speculation is the game that's a theme everyone is familiar with is Whitewater 2. That's right.' - **[content_signal]** Pinball Show Patreon exclusive episode featuring direct Nordman statement; significant industry drama attracting subscriber content strategy (confidence: high) — Episode framed as bonus exclusive content for Pinball Show Club members - **[competitive_signal]** Nordman now pursuing independent game design with two industry partners with goal of manufacturer sale; represents shift toward designer-led development outside traditional manufacturer employment (confidence: high) — Nordman: 'Currently, I'm working on a new game of my own design, with two other industry professionals, and the goal is selling it to a manufacturer for production.' --- ## Transcript Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. Dennis, it's time that we give our exclusive members some content. Or no, they're not exclusive members. To give our members exclusive content. I guess they're exclusive members. No, they might be members of other things. Sam's Club, Costco. That's true. I was just thinking of Costco. Sorry. I figured. And all the sales they stole from you. The Nordman speaks. Not the Nordman. The Nordman. Like the store. Isn't there a store called Nordman's? Nordstrom's. Nordstrom's. I am Nordstrom. Or as I often would pronounce it with my Western style, Noidstrom's. Noidstrom's. Nordstrom's. Nordman speaks this last week and this is going to be a fun little discussion he posted we talked about in the regular episode the context of which he was posting he was basically saying hey Dayfix was talking about how I'm not a designer at AP anymore on a podcast and he was wrong so I'm going to read his post are you? well how about I read his post I just felt sorry for your voice You read. I know. I feel sorry. Don't worry. I got a new drink. But you're going to read the part in quotes, quoting David Fix, so you can do the fix. Oh, great. That's going to put me in the best spot possible. Okay, good. I recently became aware of what David Fix said about me in his interview with Pinball News in May 2024. This is verbatim. If you want to hear it yourself, it starts at about 2 hours, 19 minutes, and 38 seconds in. I've got to do David Fix. This is not going to. I hope he's not a. Hopefully he doesn't follow. Okay. Am I really going to try to do David Fix? You do it however you want. If I did, it would be. It would be. You know, Dennis is not a young guy. No, I can't do that. you know dennis is not a no first off this is a quote that was i i don't know that this quote to be verbatim but this is what dennis nordman quoted on social media right right you know dennis is not a young guy he kind of came to us and he was like you know i i could be doing better by being home a little more and being this and that and the other thing. We kicked it around a couple times, and then we said, hey, this is what we want to do. We want to lay you off. I love this pitch. This is still all part of the quote. Yeah, sorry. We want to lay you off. We want to put you on contract basis. We want to build your game. It's not the hot property. It's not the hot priority now. It's not shelved. It's either other little things that can be done. Let's talk about this and have a contract made up, and we'll contract-base this. And it's well open. You can come and, you know, do what we need to do, and let's do this. But, you know, we kind of got to lay you off from the day-to-day. None of this is true. I have no contract with American Pinball. AP was not honoring my original contract, so I told Fix I was going to work from home more days per week. I wanted to see my next game go into production. It is an unlicensed theme, but it's a theme that everyone is familiar with. I order. And it's an amazing play field, and it was way ahead of barbecue in development, but Mr. Fix decided to put barbecue in front of it. They offered me a contract that was completely unacceptable. They said if I did not accept that contract, I would be terminated. I asked why, and they said they didn't have enough money to pay me. And I asked, do you mean if I don't sign this contract, I'm terminated? I was told, yes. I walked out. I walked out. That's where it stands today. I have nothing to do with American Pinball. Mr. Fix told other people at AP that he would bring me back to finish my game number two in June or July. Of course, that didn't happen. I have six or seven games at various companies that will probably never be produced. There are three at Deep Root, one Flipping Whitewood, one full-size foam core Nordmanite, and one drawing. one at Chicago Gaming a flipping white wood and three more at American Pinball one One flipping whitewood and two more drawings Discouraging but I haven given up Currently, I'm working on a new game of my own design, with two other industry professionals, and the goal is selling it to a manufacturer for production. I'm not ready to quit yet. Swear to me! No, you didn't say swear to me. This is so good. Anyway, that's the quote. How? So, yeah, the wide speculation is the game that's a theme everyone is familiar with is Whitewater 2.0. That's right. I just love how emphatic Dennis Nordman is in this because, like, you can't make this up. Well, you could, but I've got to say that quote, and I have not gone back to listen to the Pinball News interview. That sounds like the interviews I've heard with David. I know. We're like, I don't even know what he's saying at this point. But then you hear things like, but we're going to lay off. But I like that Nordman's like – We're going to kind of lay off from the day to day. That's right. It was way ahead of barbecue and development. Like just that statement alone. And you know for me, you look at barbecue and you're just like, this is not – barbecue is – if it was, it should be called cookie queue because it was half baked. It was half baked. David Fix decided to put barbecue in front of it. Like nobody puts white water in the corner. What is this? Just decided to put barbecue in front of it. This is crazy. Burden Yeti. I have six or seven games at various companies. Three at Deep Root. Newsflash, Dennis. You don't have any at Deep Root. That's what I was like. You know, you can send those on someplace else. I don't think Robert Mueller has any claim to that. He won't mind. Those are long gone. And then, like, the Nordmanite. Do you not picture a cave sculpted of white foam? I pictured plastic. Not upon plastic. A special new type of plastic. I picture bats dropping off that are made of foam and then they fly away. Like, this is like Lego series, but Nordmanite. And he just references himself as Nordmanite, having that textile to work with or that material. Yep. So good, man. We need a pinball machine just around Nordman. It's building itself. What would you do, Dennis, if you found out? Dennis Nordman was in fact creating his own game titled Nordman. You know, I don't buy based off a theme. Oh, no. At least I've not crossed that point yet. I would be so curious. You know, maybe that's something to talk to Turner Pinball about. Does Turner have the rights to his old designs from Deep Root? I don't know. Anyway, I'm just throwing it out there. The Nordmobile. There's so many things that we just create. I just want there to be, instead of the bat cave, there's got to be the coal mine so he can be the caped canary that goes in. He's the silver ball knight. He's got to have his, maybe go around and collect the pieces to his armor. And then when he's got that, he can go forth and alert us when a pinball company is about to fail. The canary in the plastic coal mine. like all think of all the failure companies that you could have like he could have a thing about zidware thing about every mode a thing about vonnie d every mode is a is a botched relationship with a manufacturer like evil jerry and like all of these people yes oh every villain is from a manufacturer that's so uh i do them all as clever plays like instead of if zidware it could be like Dizware. Haggis could be bagpipes. Oh, yes. It's like Mega Man. You pick which villain you want to play. Oh, so good. Dave Fix. That is greatness. So what do we make of this? Joking aside. All right. I believe what Dennis Nordman is saying here. Okay. So that's what I make of that. I tend to as well. This is entirely consistent with other people who have informed me that what David Fix says publicly is not consistent with what is actually happening. Do you think that they hired Nordman? See, the slop in the mess here is that they hired Nordman full time, and then they hired on Ryan McQuaid full time. Oh, they're top heavy. They're top heavy on staff, but I even think bigger companies than AP are. So, of course, AP is. there's no reason for a company that produces that few games to have that many designers there's not well do you think that the they were thinking to themselves why do we need dennis nordman now that he's already designed a second one we'll just fire him i can see that and then and where's he gonna go then we'll just pay him for you know this game is gonna come out like if the guy game is done then they get rid of him and they still make his game i mean a la or or however you know like Elvira House of Horrors kind of with I mean he wasn working quote working for Stern It was always a contract thing He might as well be that anywhere he goes Well, I mean, that's his style. That part, to me, it was always just a question of, I assume they brought Dennis Nordman in. The same reason why Deep Root brought Dennis Nordman in is he's a known entity where people like his designs, and so it was a way to gin up sales for American Pinball. But then I don't know if they were upset with the reaction to GTF. You know, there have been a lot of people that have talked about that. They feel American Pinball pulled the plug too quickly on GTF. And instead of trying to really work it to get the sales up, they did Expo last year where they just brought in the cast that no one cared about, and then they were done with it. And then they moved on to a game which, regardless of what you think about Galactic Tank Force, I was trying to remember the full name. GTF! GTF. That almost, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who has said barbecue is a better game. No, and that's going back to my rant on pinball market trends like this complacency in pinball is ridiculous. And I didn't love GTF as a game. There was a lot about it that I, it was too. It's still a layout. Too inconsistent, but the layout was unique. I'm going to say that. And GTF? Wasn't that, I mean, what was there? A three bank in the middle? A ramp? Yeah, but it was a single ramp game in the modern era. Who does that? I mean, Nordman. I do. And Joe Balcer. Hello. That's how you greet me in the canary mine. I just, I don't know what to make of this. It seems like a mess on top of a mess. AP, here's what. Look, I'm not a distributor. You have your relationship with American Pinball that you may need to preserve. I don't understand. I'm just saying that. Look, I don't understand what they are doing. But the company, I hear that American Pinball was a real mess, and they brought in Dave Fix. But then it doesn't seem like. They called in their closer. The cooler. and all that seems to have cooled our sales. And I know part of it was tough to judge because it was during the pandemic. So Hot Wheels, you know, it had its Achilles tendon Slash because they launched right at the start of the pandemic. And it was a layout, nothing special. And then it took forever for Legends of Valhalla, a game that everyone already knew about. Legends of Valhalla was a another game, another company's design. I still think a bad design. Then GTF was their big thing, and then they didn't even come out with the lunchboxes for TPF in time. And that could have at least made money for them off of that, off of the Franchi art. The company is a mess. And then barbecue. Holy shit. A whole other level. What a fucking turd. A whole other level of failure there. I mean, so disappointing. Except I didn't even have expectations and it disappointed me. Why do they keep going? Do you think they have something planned after Cuphead? No, I do not. Well, I mean, they have whatever Dennis has done for them. Like, they've got stuff lying around, I'm sure. These designers, I don't think, literally sat there and drank coffee all day. I think they've got designs. How well-baked they are, I have no idea. But, you know, there was the rumor reported on Nap Arcade that they don't even have Masters of the Universe. They've only suggested they had it. And I would ask if they really did have Masters of the Universe, why it wasn't prioritized over a niche theme like Cuphead. Damn it, because barbecue is on deck. Fucking barbecue should never have been made. It should have never been made. Wow. I just don't know what's going on over there. You know what's very interesting to me? I've seen some stuff recently that's making me wonder. Remember in the past they had like the, what was that freaky sex position name? Flying Dutchman. They had like this. Oh, when they weren't going to do things besides pinball. That is a water-based arcade game. That was a redemption game. Yeah, the redemption game. But then. That was Balser era though. They're trying to utilize some, like their circuit board stuff from Ametron. Sure. And then what I found interesting is that on social media last week, on one of their stories, They were promoting Polycade. Polycade is this all-in-one-wall arcade unit. Okay, because it sounds like it helps hold my dentures in place. Perfect. Polycade will help. So I see that. My teeth were not in. So I saw them advertising that on socials. And then at Expo, they had some in their booth. so maybe their contract manufacturing maybe that's what's keeping them going is all the contract manufacturing they were doing with respect to uh board board like circuit boards i mean i assume that aimtron aimtron proper can carry american pinball basically as long as they want to but but the question is why and then and it not the same very like like with multimorphic where i've always assumed that the p3 rock sales allows the passion project which is the p3 platform to continue on but they're bringing in money in other ways but that's because jerry loves the p3 He's truly passionate about it. I don't think Ametron's truly passionate about American pinball. They may have started that way, but I think at this point they're like, why did we ever get into this? Do you think Cuphead is the last chance? I mean, yes, but I honestly don't think Cuphead could save them. I don't see any path to victory for them. I think this is dead company walking. I've thought that for years, though. I've worried about the same. And then, as I've said in the past, I don't know, I think we've said it on the podcast, and then damn it, if it didn't happen again at Expo, I had somebody that has seen their next game, Cuphead, and, I mean, they know plenty. They've seen it. And damn it, if they didn't have good things, like they were like, yeah, it's actually beautiful and pretty cool. So I don't know, man. I don't need to get behind this company or their next product people are like oh you're selling a product but believe me when I say guys I don't need to be not that I even want to be or don't want to be but what I'm telling you is I'm still hearing some decent shit about this next game so maybe they're like holding out for I don't know my issue is it's kind of like when people are doing the deep root math it's given the number of people with them And obviously, like, they're shedding people at this point, like Dennis Nordman. But I. How good does it have? How good does it have to do? Because, as you know, theme sells and this theme is not a niche. It's very niche. And and so if they were in a position of strength and this didn't have to like this was a sort of a thing where they could do something like a sideline that does a less popular theme because they had a Masters of the Universe. mostly selling. I could see it more convincingly. It's not that Cuphead is inherently a terrible idea. And the game itself might be really good. It's not a theme seller. Yeah, and that's, as you know, that's how... And if it comes out, like I've been complaining about the complacency of a lot of these companies with ninja clips and all this stuff, like, layout alone with beautiful artwork and a theme is just not going to work anymore. It's not enough. Especially for American Pinball. They have to come out with they have to check the boxes of because theme doesn't check a box for cuphead it has to be beautiful the layout has to work not only well exceptionally well and it has to have features max or toys that are substantially better than 75 of what's on the market that's the only way that that even has a snowball's chance in hell of selling 500 units the problem is they are at the point now where I've seen, you know, antidotally people discussing them. I do still follow the AP thread on Penn side. And there are people that have liked their stuff. Like they have bought Houdini's, they've bought Hot Wheels and they may not have them anymore, but they enjoyed those games. But given the state of all the releases that they've had, they will express concerns at this point of, I don't know if I can buy an American pinball because I'm afraid they won't be around for any service and parts. Only that, not to be mean to this company because I represent it in some manner, but they used to have this perception of good build quality. Yes, they did. They've lost that. They've lost that. They did used to have that. Oh, have they? Yes, absolutely. I hate to say it, but they've lost that. They're back down to where like power supply issues, flipper issues. No, they've lost it. I hate to say it, but people, it's the truth. And I'm not going to – maybe I shouldn't tell you the truth. Maybe I should shut up. But, like, it is true. Like, they did lose that. I hope they get that back. And I do hope they get that back, actually. Not only from business sense, but Lord knows I'm honest there. But from, like, a hobbyist perspective, we just had a Houdini come in on trade. I thought again about, I think I might need this game. Like, there's some stuff that they do. It was like me explaining to somebody about spooky pinball. They're like, man, I've had issues with Spooky Pinball. I'm like, damn, I know, but there's just something about Spooky Games lately that I freaking love. Like, they're just really good games if they could get some of their stuff together. But that's kind of how I view AP when it comes to, I don't have that perception of build quality is going to be great anymore. I mean, Joel opened up a GTF that had issues that he had trouble streaming. Then he opened up a, what was it, a Houdini had issues. Like, no, it doesn't have that anymore either. So it's upsetting. Have we went into enough? Yeah, I think so. All right. Y'all can turn it off. We'll see what happens. Yep. To be continued. Bye-bye. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: db680c93-491b-46d9-bacd-3791aa16685a*