# Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 56: Alice, Avatar, X-Men, Expo, LET'S GO **Source:** Triple Drain Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2024-10-12 **Duration:** 124m 56s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/cH7PMORo --- ## Analysis Triple Drain Podcast hosts discuss the polarizing Alice in Wonderland reveal stream from Dutch Pinball (designed by Melvin after J-Pop's original concept), Avatar, X-Men, and upcoming Pinball Expo expectations. The conversation covers sculpt design quality, playfield layout concerns, artistic direction controversies, and broader pinball design philosophy—balancing collector appeal with gameplay mechanics. Hosts also promote their tournament-focused Pinball Pulse show and reflect on the global reach of their podcast community. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Keith Elwin invests significant mental capacity in every aspect of game design, including team management across art, code, and sound direction, not just playfield mechanics. — _Joel discusses Keith Elwin interview on Flippin' Out YouTube; emphasized that game designers manage entire teams, not just mechanical layout_ - [HIGH] Alice in Wonderland features custom-molded sculpts throughout the playfield with minimal flat plastic, custom stopwatch with screen, Cheshire Cat topper, and side rail lights with color-changing LEDs. — _Travis describes Alice reveal stream details; confirms 500 limited machine run_ - [HIGH] Alice's mini playfield has significant randomness without clear player control, contrasting unfavorably with Twilight Zone's condensed design that provides control despite randomness. — _Tom critiques Alice's mini playfield ergonomics; compares to Twilight Zone and Foo Fighters upper playfield designs_ - [HIGH] Alice's art direction was originally black-and-white line work by Zombie Yeti, later colored by another artist to achieve the young-adult sexualized aesthetic. — _Travis explains reveal stream details about art production; confirms Melvin chose to continue this direction with no intention to change_ - [HIGH] J-Pop's original Alice design contained incomplete areas (foam core prototypes) that Melvin had to finish or complete as project continuation. — _Travis describes Kerry Hardy reveal stream with Melvin; notes ramps and features that 'would just stop' in foam core original_ - [HIGH] Zombie Yeti is the head of Stern Pinball's art department. — _Travis confirms 'Sammy Yeti did the art' for Alice original black-and-white sketches; later clarifies as 'Zombie Yeti'_ - [MEDIUM] Alice in Wonderland does not shoot well based on layout analysis; described as having poor ball path design despite strong visual presentation. — _Travis and Tom critique layout; Joel notes 'this game looks terrible. This game does not shoot well'; Tom questions flipper placement and mini playfield control_ - [HIGH] Pinball Pulse is a new tournament-focused podcast/livestream by Tom on Fox Cities Pinball Twitch with 98% tournament talk content. — _Tom describes Pinball Pulse concept; features tournament players and event promotion; streams on Twitch and YouTube_ ### Notable Quotes > "What I'm saying is, yes, Keith obviously relies heavily on his mechanical engineer, Harrison Drake. He relies heavily on his coder, Rick Nagel. But what's really cool and where I've gained a lot of respect for Keith Elwin is just the amount of mental capacity and thought process that he puts into every aspect of the game." > — **Joel**, early segment > _Explains designer role beyond mechanical layout; emphasizes team management as core designer responsibility_ > "I was just like, this game does not look like it's going to shoot well at all. Like, it just did not look like that was the aim for it." > — **Travis**, Alice discussion > _Core criticism of Alice layout design quality_ > "So there was clearly things that he had to finish or complete. But anyways, all that's come out, it's very polarizing." > — **Travis**, Alice discussion > _Confirms Melvin completed J-Pop's unfinished design work_ > "Like, even when we saw it, did Sammy Yeti do the art? He did. He did the original. He did all the original art, but it was all just black and white." > — **Travis**, Alice art discussion > _Clarifies art direction and production process_ > "I'm looking at this mini play field going, where are the flippers? And then it's like, oh, yeah, there's there's magnets in there. OK, I mean, I've played Twilight Zone before and there's magnets in that, but there's only like one objective." > — **Tom**, mini playfield analysis > _Specific mechanical critique comparing Alice unfavorably to existing games with upper playfields_ > "I wonder if that's why the sculpts exist the way that they do because it does cover up some of the shortcomings of the layout itself." > — **Joel**, Alice wrap-up > _Suggests sculpts compensate for weak gameplay mechanics—notable meta-commentary on design choices_ > "We're just three idiots with a microphone. We are. That's really what it boils down to. Except for Tom. Tom's not an idiot. So it's really two idiots and Tom." > — **Travis**, intro segment > _Self-deprecating humor establishing show dynamic_ > "So, Joel, take it away. Okay, plug it. Describe it. Tell us all about it. So, Joel just told you it's basically tournament talk." > — **Tom**, Pinball Pulse promotion > _Describes new tournament-focused show format_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Alice in Wonderland | game | Dutch Pinball/Barrels of Fun pinball machine; polarizing new release designed by Melvin (finishing J-Pop's original concept); 500 limited units; features custom sculpts, mini playfield with magnets, custom stopwatch with screen | | Melvin | person | Completed/finished J-Pop's original Alice design; made art direction choices for young-adult sexualized aesthetic; project manager/designer role at Dutch/Barrels of Fun | | J-Pop | person | Papa Duke; original designer of Alice in Wonderland; created incomplete foam core design that Melvin completed; referenced as unable to manage teams effectively | | Zombie Yeti | person | Head of Stern Pinball art department; created original black-and-white line art for Alice in Wonderland | | Keith Elwin | person | Legendary Stern designer; subject of deep-dive interview by Joel on Flippin' Out YouTube; emphasizes team management and holistic game design approach; works with Harrison Drake (mechanical engineer) and Rick Nagel (coder) | | Travis | person | Triple Drain co-host; critical of Alice layout; participates in Pinball Pulse show; recently returned from UK | | Tom | person | Triple Drain co-host; recently attended UK Open; hosts new Pinball Pulse tournament-focused show on Fox Cities Pinball Twitch; drinks Mountain Dew | | Joel | person | Triple Drain primary host; conducted Keith Elwin interview; owns multiple custom machines; married to Monica | | Kerry Hardy | person | Content creator who conducted Alice in Wonderland reveal stream with Melvin | | Kaneda | person | Appeared on Alice reveal stream with Kerry Hardy and Melvin | | Jack Danger | person | Referenced in context of game designer scope; jokingly implicated as not designing all aspects of X-Men | | Brian Eddy | person | Stern designer; jokingly referenced as not solely creating Stranger Things | | Harrison Drake | person | Mechanical engineer collaborating with Keith Elwin on game design | | Rick Nagel | person | Coder collaborating with Keith Elwin on game design | | Lior Mods | person | Sculptor involvement on Alice in Wonderland playfield sculpts | | Davey with Stumbler Mods | person | Involved with Alice's light show design including side rail embedded lighting | | Asher Lefkoff | person | Tournament player featured on Pinball Pulse; discussed UK Open and Expo | | Zach McCarthy | person | Tournament player featured on Pinball Pulse; discussed UK Open, Expo, and Sturm Pro Circuit event | | Dutch Pinball / Barrels of Fun | company | Manufacturer of Alice in Wonderland; 500 limited unit production run | | Stern Pinball | company | Referenced through Keith Elwin interview and product discussions (X-Men LE lights, speaker lights) | | Pinball Pulse | event | New tournament-focused podcast/livestream by Tom and Travis on Fox Cities Pinball Twitch; 98% tournament talk content; streams to Twitch and YouTube | | UK Open | event | Tournament event Tom recently attended; discussed on Pinball Pulse | | Pinball Expo | event | Upcoming major event; Alice will be featured; planned as fourth discussion segment | | Twilight Zone | game | Referenced as comparison for mini playfield design with magnets; praised for control despite randomness | | Foo Fighters | game | Referenced as upper playfield example with specific design objectives | ### Topics - **Primary:** Alice in Wonderland reveal and community reception, Pinball design philosophy: mechanics vs. aesthetics, Game designer role and team management, Mini playfield design and randomness vs. control - **Secondary:** Art direction and sexualized imagery in pinball, Tournament pinball and Pinball Pulse launch, Keith Elwin interview and designer methodology - **Mentioned:** Custom mods and aftermarket lighting (Stern LE lights, flames) ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.35) — Hosts are critical of Alice's gameplay mechanics and layout design, contrasting with appreciation for visual/sculpt quality. Balanced discussion acknowledging difficulty of game development. Positive sentiment toward Keith Elwin's design philosophy and their own podcast's global reach. Some frustration with J-Pop's incomplete design work and questionable artistic direction choices. ### Signals - **[event_signal]** Pinball Pulse launched as new tournament-focused podcast/livestream on Fox Cities Pinball Twitch; positions tournaments as underexplored community content niche (confidence: high) — Tom describes new show: '98% tournament talk... getting to that... we live cast it on Twitch and then it goes to YouTube' - **[sentiment_shift]** Alice in Wonderland is highly polarizing: collectors praising sculpts and visual design; players criticizing layout and shooting mechanics (confidence: high) — Joel: 'It is very polarizing. It has been really interesting seeing and reading Pennside... some collectors that are, this is everything they've ever wanted... other side... this game looks terrible. This game does not shoot well' - **[design_philosophy]** Alice in Wonderland mini playfield criticized as too random with insufficient player control; contrasts with praised designs like Twilight Zone and Foo Fighters upper playfields (confidence: high) — Tom: 'I'm looking at this mini play field going, where are the flippers?'; 'feels like a lot of randomness'; Travis: 'this layout is going, where are the flippers... But to me, I just don't get the mini play field... it just feels like a lot of randomness' - **[design_philosophy]** Keith Elwin's comprehensive design approach emphasizes team management and involvement in art, code, and sound direction—not just playfield mechanics (confidence: high) — Joel interview discussion: Elwin points out game designers must 'manage the whole team... art direction, code direction, sound direction, everything' - **[market_signal]** J-Pop's incomplete Alice design handed off to Melvin for completion; original foam core showed unfinished ramps and features requiring substantial additional work (confidence: high) — Travis: 'foam core original design, there would be a ramp or there would be something, and it would just stop... there was clearly things that he had to finish or complete' - **[licensing_signal]** Alice in Wonderland artistic direction (young-adult sexualized aesthetic) generates polarized response similar to Elvira; community accepts diverse art styles with caveat for personal household appropriateness (confidence: medium) — Discussion of Monica's approval for Elvira placement; Joel's need to tape certain areas; acknowledgment that 'people have different opinions, different lives' - **[personnel_signal]** Zombie Yeti confirmed as head of Stern Pinball art department; created original Alice line art despite unclear overall creative direction for final aesthetics (confidence: high) — Travis confirms Zombie Yeti as art creator; clarifies he did 'original black and white sketches' later colored by another artist - **[product_strategy]** Alice's elaborate sculpt design and custom features (stopwatch, Cheshire Cat topper, side rail lights) positioned as collector appeal compensating for weak gameplay mechanics (confidence: medium) — Joel: 'I wonder if that's why the sculpts exist the way that they do because it does cover up some of the shortcomings of the layout itself' - **[product_concern]** Alice mini playfield lacks clear objectives and player agency compared to existing benchmark games; described as 'randomness' without meaningful control (confidence: high) — Tom: 'I don't get the mini play field... I just, like, cringe at it'; 'doesn't feel like you have any actual control'; Travis concurs - **[sentiment_shift]** Hosts express increased respect for Keith Elwin's comprehensive design methodology after in-depth interview; elevated perception of designer role complexity (confidence: medium) — Joel: 'I gained a lot of respect for him, even more respect for him after that interview... I would just encourage people to go back and listen to it' --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. No, we're not live, but are you effing this up? Yes. Normally when we – so some professional podcasts actually enter – they add their sound effects, they add their stuff afterwards. We're not that podcast, so I hit the button. No, we don't do that shit. And then I have to edit, but, you know, we're here. We're here. We started an episode. Just mute my mic before. It's fine. What are we, 55? Episode 55? Is that right? That's crazy. Yes, I can hear you pounding on your desk. What is it? All right. What are you surprised by that? Just edit this part out. Let's just start over. We're good. I'm pretty sure if I hit my desk, too, you know, it's parallelizing. SMB7. It's not supposed to pick that shit up. I don't understand it. She's been rocking my camera. Um, Travis, can you please, if people are watching this on YouTube, please comment about Travis's tan line, please. If you could just move that collar over another three inches, you can already see it peeking out. It is so look at that. Look, look at it. Oh my goodness. Like a ghost under here. It's something, man. I'm ready for Florida. It's fine. I'm going to go to that pinball at the beach in February. That's true. Oh, yeah. I'm worried about – I'm actually worried about what's coming up, Free Play Florida. I don't know how bad Lakeland got hit. True. Joel, now all I can see is this tan line. Oh, my God. All right. Well, a lot of prayers for that tan line, man. Dude, I don't – you don't even – yeah. Monica probably makes you wear a shirt to bed. Jeez, that's rough. That is strong. At least you can see when I'm in the room. That's all that matters. There we go. Tom, you feeling good? You ready to go? I think so. All right. You guys can Mountain Dew, Tom? Oh, he does. I see it. Let's go. We, we, we're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're three. We're here. We're here. Okay, we have, just a heads up, we have four stops, four planned stops on the bus ride today. So four planned stops. We're going to talk about Alice in Wonderland and the reveal stream. We're going to talk about Avatar. We're going to talk about X-Men, and then we're going to go over X-Foe. what to expect at Pinball Expo. I say that, and I just thought of one more thing. Did you guys watch the interview that I did with Keith Elwin? Did you guys happen to watch it? Yes, I watched it in a plane back from the U.K. Awesome. Thank you. That awkward moment when you have to say, no, I haven't seen it yet. I appreciate that, Travis. It was really cool, once again, talking to him. That's on the Flip N Out Pinball YouTube channel. We did like a deep dive on Jaws. I've done this now with Keith a few times where we really dive into the game. And, man, I learned so much from that interview just because he designs the entire game. Like he has his hands and thought into the entire game. He is a pinball designer, yes. Yes, but I do not feel that that's how you do it. Imagine being in the game. Okay, can you honestly say that there are people in this industry that have the title of pinball designer that design every aspect of the game? I'm not answering that, Joel. It's a loaded question. This is such a trap right now. It's a trap. You hear that? Jack Danger, if you're listening, you did not design all of X-Men. That's what Joel just said. That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. You hear that, Brian Eddy? Stranger Things. You did not come up with all of that. Now, I know what you're saying. I feel you. You're talking about people bouncing off ideas. Sure. I mean, at the end of the day. Surely there's something on Keith's pen, though, that wasn't his original idea that maybe somebody. I didn't say he's 100% responsible for every aspect of the game. What I'm saying is, yes. And Keith is very quick to point out it's a team effort. It's a team effort. Like, Keith obviously relies heavily on his mechanical engineer, Harrison Drake. He relies heavily on his coder, Rick Nagel. But what's really cool and where I've gained a lot of respect for Keith Elwin is just the amount of mental capacity and thought process that he puts into every aspect of the game where instead of just being like, all right, I'm going to trust the rule. I'm going to trust the coders to make good rules. I'm going to trust this to do that. I would just encourage people to go back and listen to it because I gained a lot of respect for him, even more respect for him after that interview. And one of the things he pointed out is I asked, what's something that a game designer spends way more time doing than most people assume? Because I think most people assume a game designer is they're playing with home core or CAD, you know, planning out ball paths and this and that. But once you've done that, once the play field is designed, what do they do at that point? And that's where he mentioned they have to manage the whole team. They have to manage the whole team. And that's everything from art direction, code direction, sound direction, everything. And I don't know. I think game designers should be – there's a manager aspect to that that I didn't realize. So what you're saying, it's a job. It is definitely a job. It is definitely a job. And I bet there have been some amazing pinball designers, as in they can design the mechanical side and the layout of a play field super well, but I bet they are terrible managers. And that's probably got to be rough. That's got to – I mean, no – yeah, managing a team is a challenge. Some people are really good at it. Some people aren't. I didn't say Lou. I don't even have a name in my head. We're just making the assumption there's somebody out there. It's really horrible at their job. The name that popped into my head would be J-Pop. J-Pop popped into my head. Oh, okay. I doubt that guy. I see where this was going. Yeah, look at this transition. You like this? No, I click, yeah. Wait, if we're going to plug stuff, though, we've got to let Tom plug his podcast, too. I had a great transition. That's true. That's true. I had a great transition. We'll wait until the expo part, then we'll plug. No, you slammed on the brakes. You slammed on the brakes. We'll kick it in reverse, and we're backing up. All right, we're back in the golf park, and we're backing up. Got it. Let's plug that awesome, awesome new podcast live stream that Tom is now doing. Travis is a part of it, too. He's going to do something else. This is Tom's thing. Right. I'm like an in-between co-host. I love how we start out our main podcast by plugging our other podcast. This is fantastic. It's true, yeah. Thanks for clicking on this. Thanks for clicking on this. It's not a podcast. It's a show. Let's point you in other directions, okay? Tom is right. Let's point you to the better content. So Tom on Twitch, so Fox Cities Pinball, he's doing the Pinball Pulse. Is that right? Pinball Pulse podcast show where you are basically it's all tournament talk. So all those people that just heard those words, tournament talk. And they go, oh, yeah, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. If you want more, tournament talk. Boom. 98% tournament talk. Where it's at. Yes. So, Tom, take it away. Okay. Plug it. Describe it. Tell us all about it. So, Joel just told you it's basically tournament talk. So, Travis and I, we discuss tournaments that are going on. My whole concept of it is I want to get people on to promote their events and also the players to talk about the events they've gone to and just extrapolate on that. But we just had Escher Lefkoff and Zach McCarthy on to talk about, well, a lot of stuff, UK Open, Expo, and the Sturm Pro Circuit event that's coming up. So we also talked about the European Pinball Championship. So it's just a I don't think there's enough talk about tournaments. So that's what, you know, the idea actually Travis and I had is just kind of getting to that. But we live cast it on Twitch and then it goes to YouTube. Yeah. So that way, when we sit on games, it's for a competitive reason. Right. Perfect. All right, now we can go back to the transition. No, you should on games. I could transition to a whole other, you know, should I go that way? Do you want me to go that way, Travis? Nobody said on it, no. That's the second part. Or now it's the fourth part. So now we've got to talk about your transition was we're back in the golf part. We're going forward. It was J-pop, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's just start from there. Go. Check out Pinball Pulse. Check it out. It's great. All I was going to say with that is I've realized. Joel says it's great. I enjoyed it. I listened to it for two hours, and honestly, Escher can talk. That guy, he's a talker. But at the same time, it was entertaining. I was thoroughly entertained about hearing about all the different challenges. Like, I just, there's so much more thought when it comes to a tournament. You don't just show up and get lucky. Like, you are the amount of skill and planning and strategy and everything. So I was honestly, like, captivated. I really enjoyed listening to it. And what I realized being a part of this podcast, you know, we've talked about tournaments, but I've never we've always in our notes. We've always just put that towards the end. And honestly, we've never given it enough time. That's I mean, they talk two hours and could have talked more. And so I'm glad that there's now a better avenue to really dive in. Right. And to be fair, it is a niche within a niche because obviously there's going to be more pinball players than pinball tournaments. But I think even for people that don't play tournaments, it's an interesting listen just because it's such a deep dive. into very specific strategies and tactics that you can even pull into your own play at your house or on location or whatever. So I think there's a lot of value there. Just the same way I think there's value here when we talk about manufacturers, we talk about just the business side or just, like, how we view a game in general, or we just shoot the shit. Like, there's all kinds of ways to do it. Sure. Absolutely. Okay. So we've done all that. Let's plug Silver Ball Swag while we're at it. Check out our merch. We sold a shirt to somebody in Austria, which is incredible. It's so strange when I see this stuff come in and the fact that people around the world listen to this. That's crazy to me. If you're watching this on YouTube and you're watching this outside the U.S., please comment and tell us where you're watching it. Because it's crazy to me that this is a global thing. I know Travis and Tom have had this, but Tom, you know, he was just over at UK Open. And, like, he's interacting with people from Europe that listen to this show, which is crazy, crazy to me. So I appreciate it. So many people came up to me from, you know, Europe and was basically like, hey, I love the podcast, you know, love your stream, you know, all that stuff. That's so cool. That's great to hear. It's humbling, for sure. Because we know, like, everybody out there listening, regardless if you agree with us or not, if you hate Joel or you don't hate Joel. That's fine. We all love Joel. That's the divide, yep. But you're basically, you're giving us an opportunity and you're giving us your time, too. Sure. And obviously time is something that you can't get back. So, yeah, no, we do not take it for granted at all. We talk about it all the time off the podcast, too. It's just, it's crazy because I always say we're just three idiots with a microphone. We are. That's really what it boils down to. Except for Tom. Tom's not an idiot. So it's really two idiots and Tom. I realize the three of us have we have very different skill sets professional backgrounds, collecting habits, like, I don't know, we have a very I feel like we cover a lot of hobbies and that makes it fun so I think we're, can I go? we're on the golf cart, we're going forward we're moving forward, so let's let's hard right back into J-Pop sucks as a game designer that's what we were saying he obviously couldn't manage a team Yada, yada, yada. Okay, here we go. Great transition. Let's talk about Alice in Wonderland. Alice in Wonderland, the stream just happened. And sure, I don't know J-Pop. I'm not trying to attack him personally. But this is a game that it is very polarizing. It has been really interesting seeing and reading Pennside, reading the YouTube comments on not only the reveal trailer, but also Kerry Hardy did a great job doing kind of a reveal stream with, I think the guy's name was Melvin, the main game designer of, or I don't know, I'd say designer. He took Jerry Pop's original design and finished it. I guess would it be project manager? Project, yeah. Like what would the title be? I'm not even clear on that. I don't know. What do you call himself? I think he is, I don't know. I can't say for sure. Well, he definitely pointed out there were multiple areas of the cabinet where, like, in the foam core original design, there would be a ramp or there would be something, and it would just stop. Like, there was nothing, you know, if you didn't see it from the top down, there was nothing there. So there was clearly things that he had to finish or complete. But anyways, all that's come out, it's very polarizing. I think there are some collectors that are, this is everything they've ever wanted in a pinball machine. The sculpts are incredible. There's almost no flat plastic in the game. Everywhere that there would normally be a flat plastic, whether it's over the slings, over any other area of the playfield, custom-molded and painted sculpts. There's this custom little stopwatch with a screen. Sounds like a lot of crap to break. It's a Cheshire Cat topper. It comes with every game. It's a limited release, 500 limited machines. So for the people that really enjoy this hobby from a collector, like maybe not so much, maybe they don't play the games a ton, maybe they really don't care too much about code, they just love collecting these beautiful pieces of equipment, this is everything they've ever wanted. So some people are loving it. And then the other side of that is, like, this game looks terrible. This game does not shoot well. The code, what's in the code? What shots are there? What's the sound? Yada, yada, yada. So I don't know if you two, what were your immediate reactions or initial reactions to trailer or stream? I mean, we can go whatever direction you want. Travis, I'll let you take this one. Okay, so which one are we talking about? Be careful what you say. Right. The email goes to tripledrainageemail.com, and you can start it to Travis. Yeah, because he doesn't have access to the email. My feelings get hurt so easily. Yeah, I don't have access to the email, by the way, so it just goes to the abyss. They cut us in half an eye and we laughed. So which one do we want to discuss first? Pick one. I mean, there's so much to go through. So here's the thing. I will caveat this with pinball's hard. It's hard bringing stuff to market. It's incredibly tough. And especially if you have a small team, that makes it even more difficult. So it's super easy. I've worked within, obviously, what we're working with with Funhaus. Been part of a greater team with that. So, you know, it's like anything else. Certain decisions get made that you can't necessarily be like your decision isn't part of that. Right. You might have like outside advice, opinion, whatever. But when I look at what Alice in Wonderland is, I know going forward with it for me personally, I was curious to watch it just because I know what's behind it in terms of, you know, J-pop doing the design, what the history is from there, how a lot of the industry feels about that. right there's just there's a huge scab still there right it's not a scar yet so naturally you're going to open up that wound anytime you do that we saw the same thing happen with raza and that was already five years ago i think 2019 yeah and i still distinctly remember playing that game on at houston arcade expo 2019 and that's when i had like 40 half ramps and i just like nothing really was working the way that I thought it should, you know, shooting-wise. But I know when I first saw Alice in Wonderland in terms of what the foam core or whatever you want to call it that they showed, and I even told you guys this, I was just like, this game does not look like it's going to shoot well at all. Like, it just did not look like that was the aim for it. Now, there's plenty of other J-pop games out there that I do enjoy playing. I do enjoy shooting. Like, World Cup Soccer happens to be one. You know, Circus Voltaire happens to be another one. And, you know, we could go down the rabbit hole as to why those games are actually really good. But I don't think we necessarily need to do that. It's kind of one of those things, if you know, you know, type thing. So this doesn't surprise me, seeing how this is playing out with Alice in Wonderland currently. And it's going every which direction, right? Like, even the art is super polarizing. And it's not because it's like, oh, the art itself is just really bad. It's like, what is the art? You know, it's like, even when we saw it. Did Sammy Yeti do the art? He did. He did the original. He did all the original art, but it was all just black and white. It was all basically what you saw on the foam core. And I watched the reveal stream with Kerry Hardy, and Kaneda was on it as well. And that came up. And so what they had was basically black and white sketches. And then they worked with another artist to flesh out all the color. but they wanted to stick within the original, you know, design thing. So, yes, I think almost all of what you see was drawn by Zombie Yeti, but it was just black and white line work, and then they had another artist finish it. So why that was the direction? I mean, Alice in Wonderland can obviously be like a little kid's story, or it can, you know, people have gone really dark with it and made it more like adult and like gory or gruesome. And so why we landed in this type of, I don't know, like young adult kind of sexualized version, I don't know. But that's what was drawn, and that's what Melvin kept going with. And I know he's proud of it. He has no intention of changing the art. But that's what he picked. Yeah, and I mean, that's, you know, and that's perfectly fine. It's an artistic direction. You know, if if you're in I mean, I imagine obviously I know that there's women that listen to this podcast. They've came up to us before. Let us know. And, you know, I've talked to a lot of women in pinball that don't mind that sort of artwork. And I've talked to a lot of women that do mind that sort of artwork. And I've talked to a lot of men that don't mind that sort of artwork. And I've talked to a few men that do mind that sort of art. So it's like anything else. It just depends how you look at it. But that's the great thing about this industry. If you don't like the art, guess what? You don't have to buy it. You don't have to look at it. You don't have to do anything. So me personally, the art's whatever to me. I'll play Elvira at times up at the facility, and obviously that's showing a little bit. I got a jumping jack right over here in EM that they obviously show a little bit as well. So it's like, yeah, there's some stuff out there that's like that. I think where it gets a little, what's the word, gratuitous, I guess is the word I'm looking for, is when people do the custom back glass to where it's like a topless woman. I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I want to feel like I'm in Las Vegas every single day staring at that. You know, it's just a weird thing. But that's pinball. I don't know. I know that's an art package that would not be very acceptable in my basement. I know, like, when I borrowed Elvira, I had to put tape in certain places to cover areas for my wife's approval and for the kids' approval. And I'm assuming people listened to, you know, probably heard me say that and just rolled their eyes. And you know what? That's fine. I'm just trying to be respectful for, you know, people's opinions that happen to live in this household. But is that all right? Joel doesn't want to sleep in his car. That's basically it. Yeah, it's fine. And, like, it's perfectly fine to have a giant monster breathing fire right behind him that probably kills thousands of people when he does it. Yeah, yeah. Like cleavage. Well. But I understand. I fully understand, though. People have different opinions, different lives. I'm surprised my paragon's still here, to be honest. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, at the same time, I know if Zachary let me borrow the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Like, I know that would be a game that I would probably have to, after I stream it, like, close the head and, like, put a blanket on it. Like, there's no way. Like, it's just when you go with something graphic, whether it's sexualized or gory, it's going to be polarizing. Personally, I think the art is very well done. I think it's very well done. It's just the style that some people are going to love or they're going to immediately say no. Right. That's just how it is. I will tell you the most graphic thing I have in my basement. Is that Chandler? Okay, the second most graphic thing I have. in this basement right now is my laser cue. If you know what the laser cue back glass looks like, it's literally half-naked muscle guys playing space pool. Yeah, it's pretty great. Yeah, it looks great. So, I mean, Monica doesn't complain about that. She's like, I'm going to go like that for Halloween. I'm like, no. I bet she doesn't. Yeah. No, I get it. I mean, art's one thing. I think sculpts, I mean, I will say, admittedly, The game is beautiful. It is an absolutely beautiful-looking game. I think they did a great job. Like the sculpts, they got Lior mods involved in that, and all of it looks incredible. So the light show, I know they got Davey with Stumbler mods involved with the light show. Like the rails on the side have lights embedded in them, and those will change color. I mean, they went all out. It's a beautiful-looking game. So how did you like that, though? Because that's like when I was watching. So those two things you just mentioned, and Tom, I'm sure you watch this as well. The sculpts and the outside rails. That's like the two things Monica, my wife, for those keeping track at home, she's watching this with me. That's what she zeroed in on. Me, I'm just looking at the layout and I'm just like, this is going to shoot like a turd. But she's like all in on that and thinks like, yeah, it looks great. That's really cool that they did the sculpts. And my thought process was, well, you can't see the outside rail in terms of what it's doing. So I'm curious to hear your guys' opinions, what you think, because I'm more like, I want the expression lights on the inside or the hot rails from JJP. That's what I'd like to see because that's what I can see while I play and not necessarily be on the outside seeing something move back and forth. But I guess I can see the value in it, kind of like a topper in a way that I guess that if you're off the side. I think it's a cool effect, but I agree. I'd rather see it inside the game than outside, or both, maybe. Well, you've already poo-pooed speaker lights. You know, we had a whole argument about that. Oh, and real quick, this is a shout-out. These are... I'm still for Stern. Oh, still for Stern. That's right. I'm still for Stern. This is a Stern product. You love them now. That's right. Apparently, I've never spoke bad on an LCD or a speaker light ever on this podcast. I am a total shill for Stern and poppers too. I love those three things. They are great. I don't know how well it's going to show, but these are the actual, the X-Men LE behind me. These are the official Stern LE lights. This is the Stern LE kit that I have in Godzilla, but Penwoofer actually sent me, he has a new light ring with a different diffuser, which I think is awesome. So you use the Stern kit and then you just replace the light ring and the diffuser. So I don't know how well it shows off, but there's your comparison. You probably can't see mine way in the back. Oh, I can see right above your head. I have, in my Godzilla, I have the flames, which I think you used to have, Joel, did you not? I did. And a lot of people have asked me, they're like, if you had to pick right now, do you prefer the flames or do you prefer the actual stern lights? And I'm just a sucker for integration. I really like, I mean, you'll see just the show, the light show changing. What I will say is the burning city, that light show is better than any individual light show on this Stern thing. But where I get stuck is when you're playing different modes, the lights change based on the mode you're in. I just love that immersive integration. So that's why the Stern lights are staying. But for people that are on the fence that already have the burning city or the burning ones, I would not fault you for keeping it. What do you want, Travis? Well, no. So now that we're kind of on certain products, I'm just, like, bringing this back to Alice. Like, does Alice in Wonderland, what it does with the sculpts and with the outside, like, does that make it enough to get attention? I think it – go ahead, Tom. No, I was going to say, I think it does. Yeah. At least, like, you know, visual stuff in pinball is definitely a big thing. So I think it grabs your attention. But like you were saying, Travis, like, I just don't think this layout is that great. But that's my opinion. I like I'm looking at this mini play field going, where are the flippers? And then it's like, oh, yeah, there's there's magnets in there. OK, I mean, I've played Twilight Zone before and there's magnets in that. but there's only like one objective and the objective is to get the ball in the in the the back area right so you can you can basically get out of there i'm trying to think like okay how am i going to aim for these targets on the side how am i going to hit these balls that that are captive and move that ball around with with magnets um i see they have the scoop on this Yeah, like a little scoop on the right, and that's going to probably catch the ball quite a bit and send it back. But to me, I just don't get the mini play field. Like, to me, it doesn't look like it's going to be a barrel of fun. I know barrel of fun didn't do the game. I was just throwing that out there. But it just feels like a lot of randomness, right, when you look at it up there? Because it's not as condensed down. As Twilight Zone. So Twilight Zone, it gives you that feeling of, yes, it's kind of random, but you can kind of control it. And you kind of feel like you're going to get it there. And plus, it's freaking awesome to do that whenever it's, I nearly cussed there because this is how cool it is. It's awesome when you're up there during a multiball as well in Twilight Zone. So, but again, it's because it's condensed down. And I feel like looking at Alice in Wonderland, it doesn't feel like you have any actual control. Right? No. That's exactly it. Like, some randomness is good, but, like, to me, like, a whole mini play field of randomness is, like, I don't know. I just, like, cringe at it. That exists after Jaws, too. Like, that's the thing. We have the Jaws upper play field, right? It has very specific things that you can do. We have the Foo Fighters one, too. Exactly. You're saying it exists after Jaws. We got to remember that that was designed a long time ago. It doesn't matter. It came to market after. I know. It came to market after. It doesn't matter. He was not going to change what J-Pop designed. That was what he designed because there was a question there. Why weren't there flippers? Well, that's not what he designed. That was the original intent was let me finish what J-Pop started. I think that's a mistake. Yeah, sure. I mean, look at Houdini. I mean, J-Pop had a Houdini layout that they drastically changed that American pinball, which I'm sure for the better. But, yeah, I just, I'm looking at this game. There's one ramp. You know, there's a couple orbits. It just doesn't seem like there's much to shoot. Right, and that's the crazy part is it's still not completely clear. I mean it kind of got clear towards the end like how to get up to the upper playfield because it doesn't seem like you do it very often so you're mixing something two modes yeah and why isn't the mini playfield like the grabbing feature of the game like it's the main toy right well we're going every direction the bottom line is to wrap this part of the game into a nice bow because we can talk about this for an hour and we probably should talk about it because it is the new game and, you know, it's going to be at Expo and everything. But it's kind of like I wonder if that's why the sculpts exist the way that they do because it does cover up some of the shortcomings of the layout itself. Whereas if you did not have those sculpts, right, you don't have that focal point going on. But I will say the sculpts do look good. I do wish more games more often would do types of sculpts like that because it does kind of bring together the theme, and it brings together the atmosphere that you're looking at, right? So I like that in general. So I'm trying to find a positive in this as well, you know, because there are parts of the game that it's obvious that they did their job. They did a great job in terms of trying to bring together a package Now if we want to talk about call Well okay My feelings to what you saying about sculpts is it is very clear I mean even just even Stern the difference between the premium and the LE is cosmetic. The difference between it, well, JJP's kind of veered a little bit, but the difference between the LE and the CE is cosmetic. So it's, there are plenty of people, plenty of collectors in this hobby that they want, they want that game. You know, the code didn't change the layout, the shots on the other side didn't change. They just want that game to be the best it possibly can be with all the bells and whistles. And then you add the mod community into it, the amount of mods that people get to swap out sculpts or add toys or add little things there. Like, the amount of stuff that I've added to my Godzilla to take it to the next level is crazy. But I think, I mean, I totally agree with you. I think this Alice game is a, when it comes to a cosmetic standpoint, is a complete game. I don't know what a modder is going to add to this game. Every plastic, it's just loaded. It's loaded with sculpts. We talked about Avatar. The fact that the whole back left side, which is the Tree of Life, is all flat. There's no tree there. That's kind of a miss. I even look at X-Men. Like, I think Jack got creative, but behind the Sentinel head is supposed to be, like, this destructive building area, but it's just flat plastics. Like, why that wasn't a sculpt, kind of like in Ghostbusters, how the cityscape was actually a sculpt. We go on and on and on about cosmetics. And so Alice Cosmetics, they got it. Yeah, sure. Let's give Alice, let's say it's the most cosmetic game that's come out in 100 years. Okay. How does it shoot? True. And Big Lebowski did that well as well, too. Big Lebowski is very stacked when it comes to this. So if that's what they're going to do with focus on, great. But it shoots well. I mean, it does shoot well. Okay. So this is where it's not terrible. Yeah. I think a great thing about it, sorry, Joel, like Tom and I and you, we're just vibing right now. But it's like, okay. My thing is, too, it's what I'm curious about with pinball, and this is like for better or for worse, we see this with nearly every single manufacturer that comes out. I think pinball in general fully understands that it's the way that you present the game early on and that people are more accepting to wait on a code than they are to see a game that doesn't have the right art, doesn't have the right features in terms of your sculpts, your plastics, your mechs, stuff that you cannot change later on. Obviously, code, you can go up and down and everything. So I think that because the consumer, the retail consumer, is willing to wait on the code, and this has been proven time and time again. It happened with James Bond. It's happened with Guardians of the Galaxy. It's happening right now with X-Men. Walking Dead, X-Men, yep. And that's just the Stern thing. It's happened with people waiting on J.J.P. games in terms of, like, wizard modes not being in the games yet. Like, I don't think Godfather even has Kiss the Ring yet, right? I mean, I can be fact-checked on that. I have no idea. I think it's not there. But, yeah, it's just people have proven that they're willing to wait on that. But if you don't get your art and just the look of the game right at the very beginning, that's kind of where people just tune out, right? Yep. And so I think they did all that. That's why I think people are, like, you mentioned the call-outs. the graphics, the LCD are, I don't have a complaint with that. I think it's, I think the graphics look pretty good, but yeah, as, as in pinball enthusiasts, we, we are understanding that code can always change. Code can always change. It can always improve. So it was really interesting. I mean, the reveal trailer was on Monday and this interview with Kaneda and, and Carrie was on Wednesday. And so even in two days, Melvin was saying, yes, we were going to change these call-outs. Yes. We're, We've already removed this. Yes, we heard people complain about that. They mentioned, which I think is interesting, that they're going to leave certain folders in the code, which will be what will reference audio clips or graphics. They are going to leave some of those folders open so that you could change it yourself. And he was essentially saying, like, if you wanted to put in art from, he didn't say it, but like the Alice in Wonderland movies or put in music, like you could do that. So I know some people in the community hear that and they're all excited. But at the same time, it's like, well, now all of a sudden it's our responsibility to make the game what we want it to be, you know, instead of that. So it's either way. But I'm not upset about the music. I'm not upset about the call-outs. All that can change. But what can't change is the layout. Joel, when are you getting one to stream? I don't think I will. Zach is not a distributor. Zach from Flip It Out is not a distributor. so I don't think I'm going to have a chance to stream it. I'm open to it. Apparently Zach had reached out to him to, you know, that was the one thing about the stream that hurt as a streamer. This was actually something we talked about last episode, which was when me as a streamer, Tom, or Travis, even with the content that you make, like, there's a little responsibility you have as in, like, I want to make sure that I'm showing this game off in the best way possible or as realistic. I want to give the viewer, you know, a good experience and nothing against Kerry. But them playing the game was, it was a last minute decision. It was kind of dropped on Kerry last minute. And so trying to get that from a technological standpoint of these are people over in Europe with cameras set up, capturing that data, somehow being pumped to Texas where Kerry is just to then put it together in a stream and have good audio, good video, no delay, good lighting. Lighting is huge. I have four lights on me right now. Like, lighting is huge in streaming. Well, let's get into this because, yeah, well, let's start from the beginning. Like, the way that we all discovered it was through, what, through Cary Hardy, like, presenting it. And I think Kaneda presented it. I guess they did, like, a dual, like, release thing. Whatever. Yeah, I'm not sure if they had, like, two separate YouTube releases or what it was. I just remember all of a sudden out of nowhere, I text you guys, and I'm like, I think Carrie is live right now, and I think they're actually showing the game now. This is like 12 or 1, so in the afternoon. I forget, maybe even 11. But I just remember it catching my eye. The trailer. The trailer was, yeah. Well, the trailer and everything, yeah. So I'm like, I guess they're doing it now. And I had it in my head that this trailer was going to be something completely different than what came out. So I was just completely confused by the trailer. And I'm not, like, obviously it's difficult to do presenting pinball, but it was like you didn't even see a ball hit a flipper until like a minute and six seconds, a minute and five seconds in. And it was just, I didn't understand it. I was so confused by it. And I showed it to a few people that are outside of pinball, and they had no idea what they were seeing at all. So I don't know. I still don't know what that trailer was exactly. One of the best comments I've ever read on Pinside was somebody said, because people have poo-pooed the current era of pinball, which is apparently code is the new mech. So it's like we don't do mechs anymore, so codes are the new mechs. So somebody, the comment they wrote was, well, if code is the new mechs, then apparently light show is the new code. Because they were essentially saying with the Alice that it's all just light show. I mean, if you look at the trailer, what they were promoting for that first minute plus were the sculpts, the animations, and the light show. They're promoting an atmosphere. That's what a lot of companies are trying to do right now, promote an atmosphere and not necessarily promote a game that can play. Like, there's a vast difference in that. There really is. Does anybody play pinball anymore? and without I mean I don't know I'd have to look at Stern or JGP and look at their reveal trailers like what did they do better in our mind or like why aren't we poo-pooing their trailers why aren't they like if that's what are they showing we can talk about that yeah what Stern does it obviously follows the formula because you look at it somebody steps up to the game you see the plunge it tries to follow a certain mini story because that's what you're showing. You're trying to show a mini story, and it gives a little captions that says, okay, this is what's happening here. This is the mode here, something like that. It shows the features. JJP just says, F all, we're doing like a Hollywood production doing it, and it does. It looks awesome. It looks fantastic. That's pretty cool as well. So it's interesting to see how different people do it. I think just with this trailer in particular with Alice in Wonderland, and Tom and Joel, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, I just felt like it was way too long all over the place yeah it was two and a half minutes it wasn't coherent it waited way too long to get to the actual hook of what this game is right you just I think everything you need a hook so to me it's like if you're doing some type of trailer you've got there's a reason why if you guys look this is like the marketing hat on there's a reason why a lot of Hollywood films now choose to show the key parts of their trailer in the first five seconds. It's literally an announcement that you're about to watch a trailer because it's the TikTok crowd that you have your first three seconds to make that impression, to keep them there, and then to watch the full thing as opposed to starting off super slow. And that's what you can't do. And that's kind of what this did. That was just super slow and just confusing at times. You said you got to show what the pin is, and maybe that's what they're showing. I don't think they're selling Alice in Wonderland as this is the greatest shooting game ever. This game is going to captivate you with the kinetic satisfaction that you've, you know. No, they're promoting this game as look at this world under glass. Look at how beautiful this game is. Look at the atmosphere. Look at that. And side comment, and this pains me to say it, but for all the haters out there, they're like, Travis only poops on it because he's not selling it. If he was selling it, he would be saying this game is so great. You know, that's all we got. We got so much of that feedback from last episode and some of Travis's questions about Avatar. Those people definitely did not listen to the John Wick episode, apparently. What pains me to say is I am actually gaining a little bit of respect about Travis's marketing thoughts, and that's because this is what he does every day. He works for a pinball company. His job is to help sell pinball machines. And so the amount of time and thought that he puts into how do you grab people, how do you captivate them, how do you sell a product, how do you get their attention, like this is what Travis does every day. So I respect him a little bit for it, just a little bit. Not saying you have to, the listener. You don't have to. Until I do this, then he wins this. Then the tagline. Or maybe he gets excited. I don't know, Joel. I don't know. I'm not going to judge you. But I think it's interesting. I mean, the fact that I understand that you look at a trailer with a much more critical eye than Tom or I. Tom or I, we're just ready to, you know, wow us. Why have I not clicked away yet? You know, that kind of thing. Well, it's segmenting out the audience too. So, like, for instance, Tom, you probably don't need a trailer or anything to convince you to get a game. Like, you've been in pinball long enough to where you know what you like, you know the themes you like, and you know a layout that you're potentially going to like. Correct? Is that kind of the way you are? Yeah, pretty much. So, yeah, so that's one segment there. Right. And in your other segment, really, if you're doing a trailer in general, right, you're trying to reach the people that are kind of on the fence to begin with, because if they're already high intent and they're already sold, it doesn't really matter what you put out. Right. You could have a gameplay to where you hit no shots at all and you take the glass off and you have to use your hand to hit the shots instead like that. We're going to talk about in a few, as a matter of fact. But on the other hand, it's like, you know, if you are kind of on the fence, that's who you're really speaking to to begin with. And then you're doing it. You're doing a trailer because it's essentially evergreen. As long as your product is in cycle and it's being manufactured, it stays relevant to that. But at the same time, you have to respect people's time when you're putting it out. You have to get to the goods. You have to get to the value immediately. Because if you're not doing that, somebody zones out, they're going somewhere else. That's just the way it is. I just personally think the people that were on the fence, I think a lot of these people are the collectors. I think a lot of these people are the people where I want this beautiful, loaded game, limited. This is the J-pop game that was never released. This is a great theme, Alice in Wonderland, early zombie Eddie art. They're hearing all the keywords of thinking, like, I want this beautiful piece of art in my basement. And you're saying it's pure retail customers, too. That's an important differentiation to make. The location, right, your B2B customer is a lot different than your B2C customer type, right? Because you're not selling to a location. You're selling to an individual that wants to put the game in their home. Retail is totally different, totally different. So I think in that regards, I think the trailer did a decent job. It really showed, it wowed the collector as in, like, look at this beautiful piece of art. Because I don't know if the collectors, you don't agree, Travis? Because I don't think collectors care about code or shots. Well, here's the thing. You're offended by that? Sorry. Here's the thing. Yes. Well, no, they don't. Let's face facts. I will be honest because we sell to a lot of collectors, right? Everybody has a different reason for why they like games and for why they collect. Okay? Like, Tom, what's the primary reason why you collect games? What's your reason? So I can destroy Usher, Lefkoth, and a tournament on them. There you go. Oh, wait, that's rough. I think it's because his wife loves his collection. She's like, oh, I love that collection. But why do you buy his collection? Let's just start from there. Mainly to have fun and practice on them. I mean, that's the big thing. But, you know, there's multiple reasons. As a collector, some of it's value. Some of it is cosmetic. you know but but mainly i like certain layouts and i like the way they shoot and you know that's yeah well that's perfect spoiler alert tom you're buying an x-men pro why because because i don't like the le yeah but you you said you want to buy because you want to you want to you want to learn the game i want to learn and practice it okay so that's the main reason that is a perfect example right there because there's so many collectors too. I've seen it time and time again that this particular LE is going to some beach house over on the East Coast or on the West Coast and you see their game room and it is like fantastically amazing. You know the game is going to sit there and maybe get 50 plays over the next three or four years because it's a total centerpiece art piece for people. I mean people buy the games for different reasons. And that's fine. Right, and that's perfectly fine. As long as you're enjoying pinball the way you want to enjoy it, do it. Like if you enjoy pinball just shooting shots, cool. If you enjoy pinball by just seeing lights go off, cool. If you enjoy pinball because you like modded it out, cool. Like do it any way that you want. If you do it for streaming, whatever. But what I'm getting at is with Alice in Wonderland, and I hope like they kept saying that they sold out. I hope that's completely true. I mean, I saw it on some dealers' websites. it appeared it was still there. So I don't know if they were getting a sell in confused with the sell out. But either way, it's like there may not be product out there. Right. So it's very difficult. But that being said, if I'm taking a game that I know is just exclusively for the retail customer, then I want to emphasize what the retail customer likes. Right. And you're going to do that. You don't need two and a half minutes to do that. You need 30, 45 seconds max. If you're going to show artwork, you're going to show sculpts, you're going to show lights, you're showing nothing else but that. Because you're not even worried about gameplay, right? You could just present that and say, okay, gameplay reveal at this time and then you have it all controlled, right? It could be two separate things. Why do we have to put all of it together? We don't necessarily have to if that's not our intention to show off. If your intention is to show off just the bells and whistles, just do that. That's perfectly fine and I think that's perfectly acceptable. And guess what? The people that want to see gameplay, yeah, they'll be in the comments saying, where's the gameplay? But they'll also be first in line to watch the gameplay. Yeah, exactly right. I think that, okay, that's fair. And I think Wednesday was a surprise. I think it was initially just supposed to be an interview, ask questions, talk, and then it kind of became a gameplay reveal. Unfortunately, that was, you know, we talked about it last week, or last episode, that I feel like there's always pressure with these gameplay reveals, especially from a sales standpoint. You want the gameplay reveal to sell games. Like, oh, wow, look how great that is. Now I'm interested. First impressions are everything. Uh-huh. Versus gameplay reveals that it's like, ooh, they are bricking a lot of shots. That is, yeah. What did I tell you guys? Like, off the podcast, off stream, I said, I hope they do not show gameplay on this for their sake. Like, do not show it just because you could tell what was going to happen. You could tell based off how the trailer was put together. You could tell based on how the layout is, because if they had those prime shots, if they had it all down, it would have all been presented already. And it wasn't. And you do have that pressure. And when you pressure. Yeah. When you add pressure on to a hard layout. Yeah. That's not very suitable. Not very. Yeah. It's. Yeah. Yeah. When you've said that, you've said that with more than just, like, you've said that with other manufacturers. Like, we had this whole conversation about Stern, Stern's X-Men LE reveal stream was not good. It was not, it did not help sell the product. Well, that game is very dependent, and we'll get around to this. That game is very dependent, I guarantee it, on how it's set up. I guarantee it. Yeah, you cannot have horizontal shots, shots that go behind the flippers. You can't have that. It's the same thing happening with Foo Fighters. Like some people saying that the overdrive neck, right, that bounces back didn't come up. A lot of these things, it's based on setup. And that's user dependent, right? And even then, you're going to have some variation on how's the guide rail or how are these flippers pitched? Is the coils working properly? I mean, I have an Iron Maiden right there. Love that game. Out of box, the plunge was just broken. It was just going straight into a post the whole time. so I had to have Kerry Wien come over and help me with the guide rail just to adjust it back a little bit to help it go around that loop. So, yeah, this isn't just like anybody but Stern. It's happening to everybody. But the reality is, if the game was sold out, though, Joel, and we can get into this, here's my thing. If it's sold out, you've already made the sell. That's when, in sales, you just quiet and you stop talking. We've talked about this a lot with Spooky, because Spooky does a reveal in the last however many games they've had. they've essentially sold out within a day. So then it's just like, and then people are like, when's the gameplay, when's the gameplay, when's the gameplay? And honestly, from a business standpoint, there's no reason. There's no, you're already all sold. You're just going to lose sales. I would tell them the gameplay is going to be when you unbox it and you play it. Yeah, okay. Because it's just so difficult. Like, I get it. If you still have units to sell, that's when you show the gameplay. Well, every buyer, you want the gameplay. I know there's people out there going nuts. Yeah. You want the gameplay because you want to make sure you're making a good purchase. You want to justify your purchase. Yes. But from a business standpoint, it's sold. You've already made the sale. Yeah. What's somebody going to do? Like put down a deposit, right, and say, well, because I didn't see the gameplay, I'm just going to back out. They might. But guess what? If the game's that popular, there'll be 10 other people ready to, like, take up that spot. There's already people waitlisting anyways. Yeah. Like why show it? I have definitely, and I understand I'm in a unique situation with being able to borrow games from Zach, But, like, I've totally changed my mentality of, like, I'm going to buy a game way after it's revealed. Like, I want to experience it and then let it settle in my head of, like, do I miss it? Do I want it back? Do I want that? And the patience of, like, you know what? And we talked about this before, the Ellen effect of, like, new games comes out. You know what? I've controlled myself. I'm not going to buy this. I'm finally going to pull the trigger on that. That's been out a year, you know, something like that. So at the end of the day, I hope pinball collectors continue to collect and buy games. But it's just there's so many different people in this hobby. Some people are ready to bite on everything brand new and fresh. They don't want to miss out. FOMO's real. While other people are like, yeah, I just bought Jurassic Park. I know it's been out for years, but, like, I'm finally at that point where I know I want to have this in my house. I kind of wonder if it's also some of the people that are like you know what, I'm just going to wait until the code matures because a lot of these new titles that are coming out and we're seeing it with John Wick, we're seeing it with X-Men we're kind of seeing it with Avatar 2 the code isn't complete that's a great transition there Before we do, Joel, that's the unique dynamic, though, that we're talking about right now, is that the fact that a game can come out and it can be the same MSRP as a game that's already been completed, manufactured, it's at its full extent. It's one game of the year awards and all that. We're in that spot. And then at the same time, we're in the spot to where if you are coming out with a very limited product, that's 300, 400, 500 units, right? You're bringing it out to market to where there is considerable competition, constantly being manufactured. So it's almost like I said, if you make the sell from there, just make the sell, complete the sell. Don't worry about anything else up to that point because anything you do afterwards, all it's going to serve is just driving down sales, driving down hype. Because if you've already sold through, right? Sure. You're not going to make any more money off of it at that point. it's just not going to happen. All you're going to do is make money for the people that want to flip the game if it's in that situation. So you've got to be careful of that. That's just the reality. And I know that there's people out there probably screaming at us right now or at least me. Like I've got to see the gameplay. And I get it. Leave a comment on it too. Send us an email. Yeah. And that's fine. I'm just talking from a pure standpoint that if I was part of a company that had 300 games, I would be like you know what we're going to focus on selling this out and if it's already sold out before i'm like i'm more apt not to show the gameplay until it's like it because it's almost like imagine a console game right it sells out for whatever reason then you just show a full playthrough of the game before they even get shipped oh and then people see it and then they're like uh that wasn't what i expected so yeah and we're doing this with we're doing this with premium products that are $7,000 to $12,000, right? Sometimes even $15,000. And that's kind of like, that's the weird part, though. I get it if somebody needs to see the gameplay before buying, but that's also why FOMO exists. It's like you're jumping into the pool, you're going, but that's what makes Stern work because they have pros, they have premiums. You're going to be able to get it at some point. Let's wrap up, Alice, and what I'm saying is we actually have opinions on the layout, but we're all going to be at Expo, so we're going to have an opportunity to play it. So we will, on our next episode, we will report back what our actual experience is of playing Alice in Wonderland in the layout. And Travis and I are going to kick Joel's ass. I'm coming back for Joel. I want to give the benefit of the doubt to this game. This is the revenge year, Joel. Because I beat him in Labyrinth one year. That's what we're at. I want to give the benefit of the doubt to this game, though. But honestly, looking at the layout, the code is going to have to pull this game and the way the rules are to the finish line. You cannot take forever to get to the upper play field. I think everything needs to be accessible and as close to that start button as possible because this layout is going to eat people alive. Like, I think it's going to be a difficult layout to play. All right, Tom, you want to talk about X-Men or Avatar next? Let's go X-Men X-Men Alright, so I have an X-Men LE I've played the heck out of it, I've streamed it twice Tom has played X-Men at Lumberjack Townies Is that right? That is correct Travis, you have not touched an X-Men, right? I've touched an LE box What? About that cardboard So what's our comment? Tom, initial impressions after playing You streamed it, right? You streamed X-Men or you just played it? No, just played it Well, technically, I guess we did stream it for a tournament. Yeah, but you weren't, like, diving into it. No. Okay, so initial impressions, they did release, it was Tuesday? Monday or Tuesday, they released .84 code where they changed some stuff up. Have you played it since the new code was out? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So initial impressions, I didn't like it, like, right off the bat. Okay. and I think it had to do with just one kind of bare-bones code to, you know, just getting a feel for the game. It's so different than anything else that's been out, and it really is. And three, I just don't like some of the LE features on the game, and that's just me. like I don't I don't like when I hit a shot on the right ramp and the wire form breaks and I lose my ball yeah like to me that's like super frustrating it's like I hit a shot I made a shot and now it's gone like why are you doing this to me and I I kind of blame Joel I don't blame everybody else okay that's fine yep uh no but but then i i played it wednesday night and and actually we we have a we have a discussion with carl so yeah carl had played the game and gave his thoughts i'm not going to share what carl's thoughts were but he he had brought some things to to our my attention and basically I looked at some shots different and I'm like okay now I understand like how to hit some of these shots and you know my scores went up so I I'm I'm feeling better about the game than I did like a week ago so um I'm getting a pro. Yeah. But you went from potentially in on an LE to you're out entirely to I'm not buying the game. No, I was always in on the pro. I was never in on the LE. Gotcha. But you were in, and then you were out, and now you're back in. Correct. Nice. Yeah, I have. So since we last recorded, I have the X-Men LE here. I have full intentions of getting a game either at the end of the year or early next year to add a game to my collection. And right now the pin is Jaws Premium. That's right there. That's what I want to buy. That's the pin. So that's what has to – we've got to beat it. We've got to beat a Jaws Premium for me to buy something besides a Jaws Premium. My initial first – my first game of X-Men was over in like 30 seconds. It was brutally bad. Jared's first game, terrible. My buddy Ryan, who's a good player, who came over his first game, horrifically bad. So the first impression of the game is like I just missed everything. Like the ball, it's gone so fast. So you're on location. I had the same impression. Good. Okay, I'm not. So if you're on location, I mean, I could see how people put in, you know, a dollar, and they're like, screw that game and move on to the next one. With that said, I kept playing, and I genuinely love the way it shoots. I love the way it shoots. The kinetic satisfaction is fantastic. I really, really like just playing the game. This is a game I started on stream the other night. Sometimes Zach lets me borrow games, and I'll stream it for two hours, and then I don't touch it for three days. This is a game like every day I'm coming down here just to play one or two games, just because I love the way it shoots. I really enjoy just it's fun. It's just fun seeing the ball whiz around, some very creative shots. With all that said, if somebody said, Joel, are you going to buy X-Men? If I was going to buy an X-Men today, I'd buy a Pro. And that's just because of exactly what Tom said. The ramp, there's a hand, the sentinel hand, will destroy the ramp, and you've got to pay attention. You can save it. You can get lucky. But if you lose focus for a second, if you feel, if you hit a shot that you're so used to these shots being safe returns of the flipper, if you relax just that tiny bit and you're not ready to nudge or prepare to save that ball, it's gone. So maybe it's my fault. Maybe it's Tom's fault. Maybe we're not paying enough attention. Maybe they'll add something like, you know, on TNA, the scoop is so brutal, the eject, that there's a tiny little ball save. So it knows if it just dumped the ball. Like if there's a tiny little ball save where it's clear, it just dumped the ball and you can't save it. Maybe they'll give you a grace period, something like that. That would be great. But even right now, Even the left side where, like, that finger is and it throws your ball, I've lost balls from that too. I have had issues with the finger. It worked well, and then since the latest update it has not worked well. So there's tweaking here. And there one other mechanical issue which is the plunge The plunge is not working great And here the problem and I know Travis is probably going to say this which I 100 agree with This game is definitely, it has to be set up right because there's so many things on it. I'll give an example of Lumberjack Johnny's game. so initially when it was out the the shooter the ball would not go around yep and that was like super frustrating because one you lose your skill shot two the ball comes down and basically it's out of control and the way the flippers are aligned you don't have much of a chance to save it So the other thing is the like the figure eight shot. Like I've hit that shot so many times to where I would say like 10 percent of the time it goes around. Otherwise, it like gets hung up on the ramp. And you're talking about all the way around, right? All the way around. Yeah. Like it'll make the shot, but then it won't enter in the other ramp to go through the wire. It's a feed your flipper. Yeah. Which is the highway ramp, right? You're talking about the side ramp? Yeah. Okay. And that is like, you know, it's just frustrating, I guess. So it's like, I know I made the shot, and it's not doing the thing it should. But I think that may be a leveling issue. I haven't had that issue at all. My figure eight area in the back, I thought that would be a brutally hard shot. Like even, you know, with the Katana ramp on Deadpool, there was a lot of people that, you know, how do I reliably get that to work? And there's tweaking or, you know, make sure your play field's waxed, all that stuff. I was expecting that figure eight back there to be, no, honestly, on mine, it's very consistent. It's very consistent. And a shout out to Matt McCarty. We were talking about it, and, you know, he mentioned that. He was like, you know, the Katana ramp on Deadport, you hit that shot. You don't always make it. I said, that's fair. Yep. But the plunge is the one thing. The plunge in my, and that's what if you look at the owner's club, the plunge is a problem. And it was even like the shooter coming out of there. Like that wasn't making it. You saw that on the gameplay reveal too. Yeah. The first plunge didn't even make it if I remember right. And I remember texting you guys being like, oh, shit. Yeah. You can just tell, like, something was up with it. What's happening, initially people think, oh, it's just not powerful enough, put in a bigger spring. I actually took it out, stretched the spring, put it back in. My most consistent shots are probably like a 60% power, 70% power. So what's happening is when there's too much power, there must be something getting airborne. I mean, it's a big path, and then it rattles and it lands. So there's going to be some dialing in, which brings up a random question, which is somebody said for this plunge, there's zero reason to short plunge. If you short plunge too, like the shooter lane is the out lane. If you short plunge, you just drain the ball. If you short plunge about halfway up, it's an uncontrollable ball. I don't know why a tournament player would want to short plunge. You want a full plunge every time. You want a full plunge every time. So my question is why would CERN not remove the plunger and put in a button like Medieval Madness, like Monster Bash? Why would they not just make it an auto-plunge game every time? I think that's just not part of their framework. I don't remember the last time they've ever done something like that. But for this game? Have they ever? I can't think off the top of my head. Just like the gun games I can think of, like T3 maybe. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, but I could see somebody modding this game to make a cool button, remove the shooter rod, put a button in there, and then that way as an owner all you're worried about is dialing in the auto plunge. If you can dial that in because I've seen that with some of the collectors that the auto plunge they've got to work 90% of the time, but the manual plunge is still hit or miss. Yeah, it's kind of one of those things from all the videos I've watched on it so far. it's like if it does make it the plunge, it's just kind of like it just barely makes it. It's a slow shot. Right. And even if you try to make it scream, like you said, then it gets hung up on something back there and it still won't make it anyway. So the Lumberjack game, like now, 95% of the time it makes it around. Oh, that's good. I don't know. It's going to be a game to fix it. I didn't. I just mentioned it to Dave and, like, the next day. What did he do to fix it? Do you know? I don't know. I'd have to ask him. Well, what's weird is on – I'm sure there's a lot of owners out there, like, I want to know this. There are people on the owner's forum on Pinside that they got it all dialed in, and then the code update messed with it. Like, it's weird. It's like the code update, all it did is it defaulted the auto-plunge coil strength to 255. It defaulted it at max. But even then, when they go in and lower it back down to the old default, it's not working. So I don't know if they – I don't know. I don't know what they did, but I trust that CERN, this is something they'll figure out. Absolute worst case, somebody will figure – you know, like even Godzilla had some weird plunge issues where there were aftermarket mods, you know. So it wouldn't surprise me if somebody figures out, oh, yeah, add this 3D printed part here or this rail, and it makes it more consistent. Wait and see. We'll see on that. But mechanical issues aside, I'm loving the way this game shoots. It is awesome. Code, though, code has a long ways to go. And what I mean by that is initially when the code released, you would play. There was four modes available. Once you beat two, you could go to the future. And then when you come back, there would be four new modes available. As of right now, when you hit, you had a white shot and then a blue shot. You're in a mode. All eight modes are available. White shot. There you go. Yeah. And blue shots. Got it. So, but the thing is, there's nothing to do. Like, once you've played all eight modes. You can go to the future. But there's nothing. Once you're in the future, there's no reason to be in the future. The future is dangerous. Let's talk about the future. There's no point there. It's bleak. Okay. That's on theme. There's nothing to do there. Right. Because you're dead. There's nothing to do there. There's not going to be anything to do. And yet there's also nothing you can see there because all the lights are blue. The GI is completely blue. Really? I do not like that at all. Is that on the new code or is that always there? It's always there. I need to watch more videos. There are red, white, and blue GI bulbs all throughout the game. One thing I do like is when you tilt the game, not tilt, but like when you nudge and you get a danger, all the red on the play field freaks out. It's actually a really cool effect. Yeah. I mean, that would be like my only thing. like put some more white in there, like with the GI? I think that should be an easy setting that they would allow, like future GI, and the option is either blue or blue and white. I guess let me ask you guys this then. Does it feel like as of right now that there's enough – is there enough of a difference between being in the present to being in the future to where you're like, yeah, I want to go to the future? No. There's no reason. I do not want to go to the future. And what I mean is you have the ability to control with the action button whether you stay in the future or you return to the past. Right now there's zero reason to stay in the future. I would assume they will build something in there, whether or not there's, like, you have to defeat X number of sentinels to get this. Or maybe you can bring characters into the future. Or maybe this. Like, there needs to be some reason where I want to stay in the future. Right now there isn't. There's no reason to stay in the future. So it is literally you get into the future, you hit your button, so it says return to the past. You hit a Cerebro shot, and you're out. And then you're back. You're back to playing those. You're just like, dude, I'm out of here. There's no reason to be in the future. Very much. Future sucks. I mean, and it does in the storyline, I guess. Sure. But they've got to develop something. There's got to be a reason to want to stay in the future longer than you do. And that's what I'm going to ask you guys. I still don't know much about this code at all because it's just limited on what I've seen. So, I mean, is there just basing it off how the comic books were? Are you trying to save people from the past to pull them into the future to be like your ally or something like that? I think on the LCD, there's the characters on the side, and then every mode is related to a character. So once you beat a mode, it's clear that you've gained that character. Okay. But that's it. There's no additional perk as of right now. It's not like I see that character now in the future. I would assume there will be something there where there will probably be a strategy of like, oh, I want to play Juggernaut first because then I have Professor X, and then I want to play this, and then that way I get Magneto. And if I have those two, they give me these perks, so that makes this mode. I would assume there's going to be a rhyme and reason there. Definitely early cut. And then the other aspect is the danger room. I really like the danger room. I think the danger room is a ton of fun. I think it's a very unique thing. It shoots well. Like, I like the way it shoots. But they've toted that this danger room is going to be a training room, so it will make you stronger. So it's supposed to give you more perks, whether it's bonus acts, play football. I don't know. As far as I can tell, it's not giving me anything right now. So there's no reason to get in there and grind away. There's no cues thing, at least in my eyes, that, oh, I'm getting some value out of being in here. True. Usually I get in there and I'm like, get the hell out of here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I guess then the proper question to ask you, too, because we've talked about this a lot in the past. Does it feel like the first five or ten minutes of the game is there? Like, does that feel complete at all? Possibly. I mean, because you're just trying to get into modes. And then do you feel like you have a complete game based off the 10 minutes? Oh, no. Because you can do stuff like you can hit the Beast Labs area a bunch, and I don't really see what it's giving me. The Danger Room, like, so you have access to these areas that are very clearly not fully fleshed out. I think the Beast one with the newer code, it's like. It's more fleshed out? It is more. There's more. I just don't. Like, that's a whole area, though, because it's a very target. I'm very curious to play the pro, which is just going to be a static one target that's a leaper target. Like, I don't see the value necessarily. Just for our listeners, you guys are talking about the mech that's to the left of the sentinel head. Correct. Right? Correct. So, on the pro, like you said, it's just the leaper target type thing. And on a premium LE, it's a very target multi. or it's like a Newton ball. Like a kinetic ball up top, right? Yeah, very target. Okay. It's cool. It's just what I'm not, I'm just not experiencing the code benefit of like, you know, on a pro, I'm assuming I hit the target. It's either you hit it or you don't. On this, it's a very target. It's like, is there value in hitting it harder versus just grazing it? That's the whole very target Newton ball thing. So, I mean, honestly, right now, you know, if I stream this game for two hours, It's really just let me work. Let me just chip away at these eight modes. And what I like is there's a perfect way to achieve each mode. Some of the modes, it's not very clear what that is. I don't even know if it's coded in yet, but I've just been achievement hunting, like just beating the mode, beating the mode first try, beating the mode perfectly. That's what I'm focusing on. There are three multiballs currently in the game. You can start all three. none of them really tell you very well how close you are to starting them. I've always been surprised when Save the City is lit. It's like I had no idea I was close to starting that. So there's no indication of progress on the LTV or on the plate build? I'm not even sure I've seen Save the City, to be honest. Well, I have. Apparently you have to hit all the city shots enough, like all the different main shots, and then it's lit in the middle. There's a Save the City insert that will flash, and then the middle shot will flash yellow. If you hit that, it's going to start your multiball. But you have no idea how you're progressing towards that. But when you're saying city shots, again, just to be clear for the listeners, you're talking about like each specific major shot is considered a city shot. They all have names. Downtown, midtown, highway, subway, something like that. There's five of them, right? Uptown, Midtown, Downtown, Subway, Highway. Yep. So you have to hit those. On the rule card, it basically says hit those evenly. But it's like I've sat even with the glass off. Like I've thrown the ball. The rule card says hit those evenly? Let me, give me one second. No way it says that. No way. Actually, get the rule card out, Joel. Let's go over this. Tom, no way it says that. Hit these evenly. Where the heck is it? Now I need to bring up the place. I haven't read it. I'm going to bring up the place. Okay, no, it just says shoot city shots to explore the city and start Save the City multiball. That's all. It's all on the area. It's as vague as possible. It's so vague, and that's my issue with that. And even the Sentinel, I understand with the Sentinel, on an LE, you bash it enough that it pops up. Then you bash it enough that it will drop its jaw, and then you bash it enough to start multiball. This is another reason why I kind of like the Pro. There is no real difference besides visual of it being up or down. Like, it's not like it's a diverter. It's not like it now is in the way and it wasn't in the way. It doesn't change the shots. So that's why, once again, I think, like, I'm all, I'm like Pro Pro. Like, I think the Pro is a good buy in this game because the layout's the same. The shots are the same. You get all the great parts of the game for cheaper. That's why I'm leaning towards Pro. But, hey, if you're an LE buyer or you're all in on X-Men, I think you'll love your LE. I think the game's absolutely beautiful. Yeah, I think the only thing when I first saw it, I preferred the pro version of it more, and it was strictly because of the hands on the wire form. The danger, yeah. Yeah, I'm just not a big fan of hitting a shot like Tom said earlier. I'm just not a big fan at all at completing a shot and then being punished for it. You can disable it. And I probably would. But then it's like, okay, so I'm paying extra money for a feature that we're not going to use. You know, that's kind of one of those things. Like, I get it. Like, a lot of people like that type of randomness, which is totally cool. It's just, for me, when I'm in the flow of things, it's like seeing a ball just get plopped down on the play field. I'm just like, ugh. It's not a plop. It's ripping right towards your flipper. See, even Godzilla. Tournament players don't like losing their ball. No, not at all. Even Godzilla, I didn't like it on Godzilla. The only saving grace for that is it starts a multiball, like the bridge multiball. It's cool visually seeing these things happen, right? It's cool, like a wire form breaks or the bridge breaks. It's on theme, obviously. It's just from a playing perspective, I'm just kind of like, okay. Maybe if it started a feature like a multiball and I had a ball save, okay. I'd be cool with that. Yeah, that would be a little bit more. Well, we talked earlier about collecting characters. So maybe you have a character. Maybe you get, if you beat Magneto, he gives you a Sentinel, you know, ball save. Like, maybe that would be one of the perks that, like, there's a ball save that turns on every time a Sentinel attacks. You know, maybe there would be, you know, they just build it in the code where I want to play this mode first because I want this character, and then it will protect me the rest of the game from the hands. Yeah. You can do that. There's plenty of stuff. Easily, yeah, you could pull stuff from what they alluded to in Deadpool Wolverine. It's like if you beat Magneto, you have his helmet. You can do something with the helmet now or something like that. Yeah. I don't know. All kinds of stuff you can do. Honestly, I mean, I just think it's funny because people on stream, they ask, you know, is this going to be a top 10 game? Is this that? I mean, I think the layout's fantastic. I really love the layout. Like, I'm having a lot of fun the way it shoots. But if you're going to buy this game, there's a good chance you're going to have to mess with it or tweak it to get that layout to shoot really well. and just know it's early code. It is early code. I mean, if you want me to shill, I'll say, hey, it's a top five game right now. Right now. You should get out there and buy right now. You've asked some tough, critical questions about this game, so clearly you must hear it. I looked at the time, so we do need to move forward. No, you're fine. It's just the bottom line is it's pinball, right? And we talked about last time what could possibly make this game play hard. I think personally this is one of those games that if you get an elite player on it, an elite player is going to do elite things. That's just the reality of it. But I do believe if you get an average player to a below average player on it, it's going to be a hard sled, right? It's going to be a little bit difficult. But that's okay because if you have the game at home, maybe that's a cool thing. Like I've gotten to where there's some I would prefer to play some of my classic games over the modern games because I know I'm not going to have a 30 or 45 minute game. I'm just going to have like a five minute game where I can actually play with my family more than a four player game. So like I get it. And I think on location, I think that this has potential to be a very fun location game. Oh, yeah. Because if you set it up right and it does play hard or coin drop and then you get people to have a bigger challenge of things. I just, you know, I'm interested to see what they do with it. But, yeah, I think with this game, and I haven't got the chance to play it yet, it's very much setup dependent, and I think it's going to be very polarizing moving forward compared to if people like the Pro or the Premium. I don't think, out of all the things I've heard people talk about, I haven't heard it be this, like, split in half. I know. Of people saying, I don't think I would like this version, I'd like this version. I hope that your first experience of playing X-Men is at Expo, and I want to be playing against you that first game because I think I have a chance of beating you. I mean, it might have to be. I was trying to save it for content to say, hey, my first game ever on this, but we haven't got the pros yet since they did the LE, so maybe I'll just film there. Maybe Joel will make a guest appearance on the pinball company's YouTube channel. It'll be flipping out in the pinball company's rep going head-to-head. Do you guys think it's weird that they went LE first before pro? No. I think that's a fantastic idea. You think they should keep doing that? Yeah, because here's why the vast, like they've even admitted, it's the retail customer is their primary customer right now. They buy the most of something. And locations are still going to buy their game regardless. They're still going to get the pro regardless. If you put yourself in position to where you're getting LEs out and you're getting them out quickly, that's a value prop that's above any other company that's out there. Like, where are the pulp LEs right now? Yeah. Right? Are the Avatar CEs out right now? Right? And that's how it is. It's not to bash those companies. That's my point. I'm saying that's a value prop right there for Stern. It's like, you'll get your LEs out immediately, and then we'll go to the others. Like, those locations will still buy. I also think Stern typically codes premium code first because it's a lot easier to disable features than to add it in. So if they're this early on in the code, if all they were doing is building out base pro code, now all of a sudden they're having to build in all the logic of the hands breaking and the guy coming up and down and building in animations for this and that. I think it's a lot easier to build for the pro premium code and then tweak it down. But there's a few. What I will say, you said pro players are going to do really well in this. There have been times on stream when I've been playing this game where elite. Elite. I'm far from an elite player. What I'm getting at is there's a big difference between somebody that's, you know, in the pro rankings or even a player that's like top 50, top 100 or an elite player. Like, I will be honest, I'm not an elite player. I definitely am not an elite player. You're talking about the 1% of the 1% that. No, we're talking about the ones that literally levitate above the pins when they play. And they transcend reality. Those guys are players. We are Pulse Podcast for the elite players. Yeah, those are the ZMAX and the Eschers. What I was saying, though, is there has been two or three modes where I've comboed three or four shots together. Boom, mode's over. Like, you can do it because of the way the layout is and the way it feeds your flippers. And if you know what shot to keep going back and forth, that's super satisfying. My only complaint is when you beat the mode, it just immediately, like the mode, you beat the mode, but it doesn't ever stop the ball. There's no scoop. There's nothing to stop the ball. Oh, it's just done. I would really love the last shot, kind of like in Turtles or something like that. I would love for the last shot of a mode to stop the ball. Stop the ball, in my opinion, to show the animation or show something for me to know I completed the mode. Because what can happen is, boom, boom, boom, you've hit three shots, four shots, you beat the mode, and now I rip another shot, and next thing I know I've qualified my next mode, and I've immediately started it. And it just happens, it blurs together so fast that it takes away the moment. It takes away the satisfaction of completing something. It's like, I'm out of that battle. I'm already into the next one. Did you like the LCD animation? I think I will see it. I think I will see it because the ball is choo-choo-choo-choo. Anyways, okay, so X-Men has a long ways to go. People are going to enjoy that expo. I absolutely think people will enjoy playing this game. They will enjoy the layout. And I do have nothing but positive feelings towards the future of this game. I'm excited to see how it develops, how it continues to. Great play on words there, Joel, even if you didn't mean it. Positive feelings on, I don't know what I said, but sure. On the what, Joel? On D? I don't know what I said. Future. Oh, yeah, yeah, the future is bleak and excellent, but not for the game. The future is nothing but positive. Okay. Damn. Avatar. I just looked at time. We've got so much more to talk about. We'll talk about Avatar real short and sweet. Did we talk about it last time anyways? We did. We talked about, I had streamed it once. I then streamed it with Mark Seiden. I don't know if you had played it yet, Tom, when we talked about it last time. That's true. We didn't. You have streamed it now. Yeah. What I want to say is we got some negative feedback. We got some negative feedback on apparently some of the negative questions or the hot takes that Travis had. Don't ask me questions. That's fine. And what I will say is, and it pains me to say it, But I think he kind of thinks a little – he might be one step ahead of me sometimes, okay? And I don't like it. I don't like it. Just not with the beard. I don't like it. Yeah. Because some of the questions he had as I was describing the code, as I was explaining how to play the game, he was very quick to have these thoughts. Well, what does that mean? What is this? What is that? And I explained it. And then here I am a week later, and I'm like, Travis was right. Travis was right. The concerns he had or the questions he had are valid. And what I mean by that is Avatar got to the point in the current code. It's not finished. Avatar got to the point with me. Sure, there's 22 modes in it. But to start each individual mode is very complex. So out of 22 modes, I feel like I only saw 10. And then there's the Savako modes. There's, I don't know, eight of those. I think out of those, I may have only seen three or four. So, sure, I could have started the game and very, very purposefully tried to hit very specific shots to experience a new mode I hadn't experienced before. I didn't do that. If you're going to buy the game, I absolutely think there will be modes that you will find for the first time a year or two years after you've bought the game, which is kind of cool. It's a little nugget hidden away that you didn't experience. But for somebody that just wants to play the game over and over and over again, sure, there's a ton there, but I felt like I was experiencing a lot of the same thing over and over again. Also, the way the multiballs are, they're the exact same. They're not fleshed out. They are going to. They're going to do that. It's just not where it is. So my goal when I was playing the game was to spell Pandora. I did it. There's no Wizard Mode. It's not there yet. Should be. Should be soon. So once I checked that box, I'm like, okay, well, why am I playing this game? What do I want to do to play this game? Why are you playing this game? Why am I? Yeah, so why am I playing this game? What I realized was on the JJP Media Day, I actually played a game with Mark Seiden, and he had a billion-point game. And he told his coworkers, he's like, I did it. I finally got my billion-point game. The designer of the game had never gotten to a billion points. So that became my goal. I want to get a billion points. So for the first time, this was rare for me. I'm playing a game for points. I'm not playing it for progression because the progression isn't built into the game yet. I'm playing it for points. So what is the best way to get points in Avatar? You hit the kid targets. It lights the in-lane, out-lane awards. Then you hit the shot to do max toxin. Max toxin will max out your next mode at 4x. So that means the whole time you play that mode, you'll start at 4x. But as you're shooting your shots, you're shooting your arrows, and that multiplier slowly goes down unless you have unlimited arrows. How do you get unlimited arrows? You hit the kid targets again. And then you hit the eclipse ramp. It'll roll over the unlimited arrows, and then you're set. You got max toxin. You got unlimited arrows. that means for the entirety of that mode, you will have 4X. If you can then start a mode and then start a multiball, you're good. That's what you want to do. So all of a sudden this game. How do you do the Max Toxin thing? Max Toxin, you hit the kids, you're going to roll over the left end lane. Unlimited arrow, you hit the kids, you roll over the right end lane. And you can change that with the flippers. It's almost like we figured that out the last podcast as soon as you explained it. You have. Because I've wasted your, like, wait, there's unlimited arrows, so why would you not just hit the kids every time? It's like, so even though there's a ton to do in this game, now all of a sudden I'm doing this game in a very specific way. Where the hang-up is, is that the perk's there for your next mode. You can start a mode accidentally. You can start a mode if you hit one shot three times, you start a sabaco mode. So now all of a sudden I've spent all this time, I've got everything in place, and all I'm trying to do is hit the shots to start my multiball, and whoops, I just hit the UR at the right orbit three times. Boom, Savaco mode. Whoops, I grazed the spider target lower left three times, Savaco mode. So I have 4X with unlimited arrows for that mode, but that's not what I, like, that's not what I wanted it for. What you were planning on doing. I wasn't. I need it for the multiball. I need it for the main mode. So I started getting frustrated. I started getting frustrated with the game because you do all this work to set it up, and then you can't capitalize on it. And, unfortunately, I never got my billion points. I never got my billion points while I played it. But it was frustrating because it was negative or it was questions that Travis had, and it turns out he was right. That's what I was doing. That's what I was focusing on. I'll play devil's advocate here, though. Please. Okay. Were you at least having fun trying to get there, right? Because people are going to enjoy games vastly different ways. Right. And if you actually look at how pinball rules are, a lot of times, every single game, you can follow the same exact path every single time and be on a loop. If you're wanting to maximize points, as a matter of fact, like 99% of the games are like that. You have very specific strategies. And I know you guys. Go ahead. Yeah, but it's just my concern for what Avatar is because there's so much there. Yeah. Right? You're still going to be relegated to only seeing like a certain percentage of it way more than everything else. And that's for like for better or for worse. Like you have to make a conscious decision that you're going to go after the modes beyond. So maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it's not hard for me to say. Obviously, on location, not so good at home. Maybe that's great. If you don't care about points at all, you care about just playing through the movie, playing through something, just doing that, then, yeah, maybe it works just fine. Yeah. Because there's been plenty of games we've done stuff like that. Well, that's just what I was going to say. In hindsight, I enjoy playing for Pandora, spelling Pandora a whole lot more, because it actually forces you to play Savaco modes, play the main story modes, play the multi-balls, get the jackpots. It's forcing you to play different areas of the play field, different aspects of the code. I enjoy that way more than trying to build the perfect stack and then maximize or capitalize a multiball. So you played for Pandora, though, right? Is that what you just said? That was what I was doing, but it's not in the game yet. So I stopped doing it because there was no reward at this point. Then, Tom, how did you play it? Because you played it on location. You streamed it. What were you trying to do on it? I was mainly just trying to start multiballs. And I was trying to figure out, like, the super skill shots. It's like, what's the best strategy for that? Which I found just, like, plunging around and trying to go into buck was the easiest for me. But, yeah, my main focus was multiball and then the eclipse shot. Starting eclipse, trying to build up that jackpot, and then trying to nail that and getting a bunch of points doing that. And I think that's a cool part for the game, too. Yeah, my main focus was not modes. I had at the time, I was like, I don't even know how to start a mode. Like, so I was just like, did you not get your like flow chart thing out or whatever? Yeah, not really. I mean, we had it there, but I was just, it was more game discovery. How does this shoot? Yeah. Um, I think the game shoots really good. I mean, I was, I was surprised when I first saw pictures of it. So it's kind of like, man, those shots look really tight up top. But yeah I think it a good shooting game It just Did it look pretty in person Like the light show and the way the colors are It's gorgeous. Probably the – as far as a light show goes, it's probably the best game I've ever seen with a light show. Really? It's really good. That's some awesome praise right there. It's very impressive. Look right behind Tom. Tom has nothing but lights behind him. So he would know. Yeah. Honestly, I mean, if you're in on an avatar, I'm not saying it in a negative way. I'm just trying to, like, for what people thought Travis was crapping on the game for, it turns out he was right. It turns out he was right in a way. Yeah, it is what it is. I had people text me and be like, why did you not talk about X-Men hardly at all? Why did you just talk about Avatar the whole time? It's like anything else. You cannot please everybody. You can't. And the way that I like thinking about pinball is asking questions because these are the same questions I ask you to numb nuts off the podcast. I have the questions, you know, because that's how you seek information. And I was in a unique position. So was Tom. For Joel, I actually knew more about a pinball machine than we did. So we had to figure it out in real time. Like, how's this going? Which I loved on the pinball pulse podcast. You said, yeah, we had to talk to Joel about avatar rules. And Esra goes, if you're looking to Joel for rules, then you're cooked. I was like, I'll take it. No, I mean, if you're in on an avatar, I actually think the game is fantastic. It's really fun. I'm just very curious to see how they flesh out the rules. And there's always balancing needed. I just know it's interesting watching, you know, you tournament players or, you know, when I watch certain tournaments stream, there's usually always a meta. There's a thing that all four players are trying to accomplish the same path. And it's weird to me when a pinball machine, which is supposed to have so many different paths, all of a sudden you just have one. That's not particularly fun for me. I don't like having a one-path game. And it was just weird in my mind where it's like, if you're playing for points in Avatar right now, it is kind of a one-path game. And that's okay because, you know, I'll play games different for a tournament than I will sometimes when I'm at home trying maybe to get to a wizard mode. Sure. You know, I mean, because in a tournament, I know, like, yes, I'd love to get to the wizard mode, but realistically, the game's set up so hard that I'm probably not going to get to a wizard mode on this game. Yeah. So, and it was talking about. It just depends on how you like a game and how you view a game. You know, there's fun that can be had in working through everything that's in the rules and just finding one particular path and just trying to stick to that path because that requires skill. You have to do it skillfully. There was a time as a collector, like, I didn't want a game if it didn't have a wizard mode in it. Right. I was just like, and then I started playing games like Dracula, and I'm like, oh, this was fun. I like how you can stack the multiballs and blow it up, but there's no wizard mode in Dracula. Right, and you just touched base on something I think is really important that a lot of people overlook. Here is a great way to, one, learn your game, two, have more fun. Joel, take notes. Get your notebook out. This is great information I'm about to give you. Let me get my – I'm just going to write on my hand. Let me get my John Wick keychain pencil. Okay, I'm ready. Set your game up on five ball, okay? Okay. And here's what you do. Your very first two balls, you do nothing but chimp flip. You don't pay attention to what you're hitting, anything. You just go. All gas, no brakes. Okay. So then when you start back on your third ball, which is essentially you can just say, okay, this is my ball one. Sure. You've set up different things in the game. You have no idea really what you set up. But now you have to observe it. And now it gives you a different dynamic because then you decide, OK, what's my goal? Do I have a point goal that I want to get to? Oh, I have a multiplier that's close to being finished. Do I want to do that? Oh, I have a multiball right here, but I don't want to start that yet. I want to bring in a mode. So now you have to skillfully not start that multiball, but start the mode instead. So there's that's a way that you can approach it. And I could see Avatar kind of being that way. Just like you said, you know, if you hit certain shots, you've got to do that to start the mode. What if you just blindly just silverback flip everywhere, and then you've got to observe where you're at. Yeah, and that's just another way to get more fun because then you're thinking through your game. You're learning the game. Then you're forcing yourself to do something a little bit different each time, and I think that's where you can get some fun out of it. That's how you'll save the city there, Tom, next time you play X-Men. just just chimp flip through the first two and you'll hit enough of the city things and you'll see it lit so no i think it's good you're not gonna chimp flip that game yeah oh true yeah those first of all i saw i saw somebody do it on stream i'm not gonna say what stream or what video no no no it wasn't you no don't worry it was the most amazing thing ever no we're talking like double flips at the same time they could not miss a shot and they started multiball and everything i was just like this is fantastic i was so fired up but it was awesome okay well we'll get to our last um topic just to round out avatar i would say if you're in on it i think you're going to enjoy the game and i'm excited for more people to play it at expo the the layout is really fun to explore at expo i haven't played yet i want to play the layout is very fun to explore it's um it's it's a cool game it really is a cool game it's just just like we're saying with x-men it's i'm very curious to see how the how they finish out the code and then start to balance it. But they're doing a whole lot right. Like Tom said, the light show is actually really good. JJP usually gets accused of just all the lights all the time. But I think they found a good balance of a fun light show, but also choreographs what to do well. So you can tell what to do? Oh, yeah. Based off the light show? Okay. I'm going to hold you to that. Once I play it, if I'm confused, I'm going to yell out, F you, Joel, while you're next to me. Joel, please do. I made a tutorial, like a real quick tutorial video. It's on the Flip N Out Pinball YouTube channel. I'm not watching your tutorial at all. I already asked you about rules. Do not subject me to this, please. I think it shows pretty well. I think it's a decent job showing what to do in the game. All right. Maybe I'll watch it before we play it. Okay. That leaves us with the – I mean, I'll be standing right there. Just ask me and I'll be playing. We did that last year on Labyrinth, and I'm convinced you told me the opposite way to go. This is the only way you won. I did not play you head-to-head in Labyrinth. I played Labyrinth, set up a really good score. You went in line with Monica, and Monica told me afterwards, Travis is pissed because his score is lower than yours. You had a coach. You had a coach. I watched somebody there tell you to hit this shot. Travis at Barrel to Swim. Okay, final topic as we're running out of time. Expo. Expo. So this is your kind of pre-Expo what to do. We've kind of already talked about JGP. Play Avatar. Play Avatar and have a good time. Talk to Mark Seiden. He'll be there. I know Keith will be there. Talk to Eric. Eric knows this stuff. Like, talk to the employees. If you have questions about Avatar, ask Travis. Ask me. Ask Tom. Or ask a JGP employee. Don't ask me. Yes. Eric explains the game really well. He explained it. I think, Tom, were you there with me when he walked us through Godfather? Yes. Maybe it's Joel. Somebody was there. Okay, yeah. He's great. Eric is awesome. But talk to the people. It was Joel. Talk to the JJP people. They're awesome. If you play it for the first time, hit the dive shot. It's the scram. It's the up-down. Hit it once. It'll pop open. Hit it again. That's how you get to the lower play field. That's all you need. So that's JJP. Stern. Stern will have X-Men. Obviously play X-Men. There's a chance they might have something else. There are rumors that there might be something else. I don't know. I genuinely don't know. I don't know. If there's something else, play the something else. I don't know. So Stern, definitely play X-Men. Play all the other games that you haven't played. Play Wick. Play Wick. If you haven't played Wick, play Jaws. Play all the good stuff. I know Venom Code is really a lot more fleshed out, all the fun stuff. So check it out. That's Stern. Barrels of Fun, as far as I know, just has Labyrinth. I don't think they're revealing anything new, but they've continually added more stuff into Labyrinth. Play the game, especially if it has a topper. The calls are awesome. Talk to the people at Barrels of Fun. They're all super nice. Barrels of Fun. American Pinball. As far as I know, nothing new. So it'll be Barrio's Barbecue and Hot Rod. It's a whole name. Play it. Cuphead is the rumored next game. I don't think they're revealing it. I think they're saving it just because of everything else that's coming out. So play barbecue. Talk to Steven Bowden. There's good people at America. you know, eat some barbecue while you play it. Yes. That would be good. Like just have a smoker there. Oh, I got a spooky. As far as I know, spooky will be there. I don't think they're revealing anything new. I think the next spooky game is probably late in the year, maybe early next year, but they should have Texas chainsaw massacre and a Looney Tunes. We played that at a TPF. I'm excited. I'm genuinely, those are two of the games I'm excited to play more of because they, They've spent, I mean, there's another, whatever, six, eight months of code in there. They've dialed it in. They've been manufacturing it for a long time. I'm excited to wait in line and play both of those games and review those and compare those. Do either of you have access to either of those games? There's a Looney Tunes at Lumberjack Johnny's. Do you play it often? Not often, no. Okay. Okay. Well, maybe I'll be looking to you, Tom, to tell me the rules because, or Bug will be there. Bug, Spooky Luke, there's really good people at Spooky, including Christopher Franchi. I'm assuming Cruz Franchi will probably be in the spooky booth or around there, so say hi to him. What else do we have? I'm forgetting. Oh, CGC, they might. I mean, this rumored Cactus Canyon remake kit, I don't know. I don't know if they're at a point of showing that, playtesting that. If so, just look. If there's long lines in front of CCR, it's probably because there's a kit installed. There's something new in that game. Otherwise, I mean, that game's been out for a while. Obviously, I'm in. CCR behind me. I love that game. I'm ready for whatever this kit is. But the rumor is it's a new hardware mech with additional code. I don't know if they're ready to reveal that or not. Otherwise, play Call of Fiction. Call of Fiction should be there. Do you think there will be an LE there? They've got to have at least one LE there. They've had LEs in the past with the topper and everything. Do you think they're making LEs yet? I don't think they're making them yet. No, I don't think that's a thing. Our good friend's loser kid, which I see is Travis's shirt, his tan line shirt. They just did an awesome interview with the Electronic Playground. There we go. Shout out to Electric Bat Arcade. Why not? Rachel and Cale. But Electronic Playground, they just announced a new topper that they're making for Attack from Mars. So I know they'll be there. Check out that topper. That should be pretty cool. I know it's all for getting this, but we're going to be there with Fun Houses, too. Oh, yeah. But no, it's just a TPC booth. The Pimple Company. Look for Travis. We're supposed to have, like, I think five Fun Houses, including two LBEs on the 2.0, and I think three classics. They're old. And Tom loves the LE. I heard all about it from him. He loves that art. He absolutely loves it. I have not played the new Funhaus, so I'm looking forward to playing that. For all the listeners out there, see, we give each other shit on our own projects, like completely. I did not like the LE artwork. And he didn't like how it played either, I think. Did it play well? I couldn't tell because I was so... So when you're used to shooting Funhaus and looking at the artwork for things, and it's completely different, it's a little hard. It throws you off. It throws you off quite a bit. Tom is saying buy the classic. That's what he's saying right there. Get a classic. Speaking of art. So I will be there, and then we also have a seminar at 7 o'clock on Thursday night. And I think Tristan is presenting. I'm supposed to be in there. I don't know how much I'm going to actually talk, but if you want to see me be, like, super awkward working a job, do that. But otherwise, like, I think we're at booth 124, I think, in the Expo Hall. So come by, say hello, awesome pinball. Tell me how wrong I am about things to my face. That's always fun. I always enjoy that as well. I'll be in the tournament area streaming. And where's Joel going to be? All of us. Everywhere. When are you and Jared getting there? Jared and I are getting there Friday morning. We're getting there Friday morning, like early Friday, and then we leave late Saturday. Speaking of which, Dwight, Saturday night. Saturday night, Dwight every year does Let's Make a Deal. It's actually awesome. I'm looking forward to that. Apparently, Stern, they have $4,000 worth of prizes that they're giving away. $4,000, including a topper. Oh, what? Yes. So Dwight reached out to me. I went last year. But butts in seats. That's what Dwight's like. I need butts in seats. And that's at 9.30 p.m., right? 9.30 p.m. Saturday. Make sure you set aside time to go to that. And it is straight up let's make a deal like the show. So I know the whole thing of, like, you get money and then you can buy things, and that's how you get – he asks questions and he pulls up different contestants. So all the let's make a deal things like, hey, does anybody have dice? I don't know. It's like, I don't know, figure out all that stuff. Or if you come in a costume, like, there's a whole thing to get money. But it's fun. It's genuinely fun. I went last year, and it's trivia. And it's just even if you're not actually one of the participants, just doing the trivia and watching is really, really fun. So let's make a deal. 930 at night. Go to Dwight's. Let's make a deal. A ton of prizes. There are so many seminars. Yeah, I was about to say, what are the main seminars from actual, like, manufacturers? I think every manufacturer has a seminar. But I realize I forgot a lot of manufacturers. I can't believe there's three tours. There's the Logan Arcade, Jersey Jack, and Stern. I think American Pinball also, right? Yep. American Pinball. On Thursdays, yeah. Stern's tour is on Thursday? Friday? You're pronouncing it wrong. Thursday. Tour. Tour. Tour. I don't know. But go to all the things. What I was going to say, other manufacturers, we talked about it earlier. Alice in Wonderland should be there. I think they're going to have three. So everybody wait in line and play that. Is Turner going to be there? Turner Pinball. Apparently Ninja Eclipse has been, they've started manufacturing those. They're going to be there. Pinball Brothers will be there. There's probably going to be an ABBA. Saturday. ABBA, Queen. Saturday is like stern night on the schedule. Oh, yeah. Making of Jaws, Making of Wick, Uncanny X-Men Seminar. Yeah, there's. And then let's make a deal. You can either say seminars, you can play pinball. There's so much to do. 7.30 p.m. seminar on Friday. My God, this is the first time I've seen this. Have you guys seen this? 40 years of Pinball Expo, as told by some of the talented people who make it happen, like Pat Lawler, Larry DeMar. Hosted by Pat Lawler, yeah. Yeah, like Keith P. Johnson, Roger Sharp, Steve Ritchie. Steve Ritchie. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of people there. Well, I've definitely forgotten stuff, but I feel like that's quite a long list. If you're on the fence to go to Pinball Expo in Chicago, do it. What are you doing? You should go. Try to do your best to get there. It's going to be a lot of fun. I'll be there Friday, Saturday. My brother will as well. Please come say hi. We actually have some flipping out stream swag. We're happy to give out. We still have some triple drain magnets we'll give out if you see us. If you see Joel. Say hi to Tom. Say hi to Travis. if you see Tom in the tournament area and he's talking on stream, leave him alone. If he's moving the ring, don't talk to him then. If he's playing a pinball machine, don't talk to him then. But if he's doing anything besides that, you can talk to him. If he's eating at a restaurant, come up to him. You can talk to him. If you're five kids and you want to have a call out on the stream, I'm going to tell you to go F off. Get back. That was the best. Get back. I honestly, Jared and I are going to be bouncing around. If you have no tournament experience, never played a pinball machine, do not come near the stream. Well, I'm going to give you a warning on that because my brother, genuinely, he's like, I want to commentate. Well, Jared's different. We could probably make that happen. Jared's a freaking celebrity in pinball. Yeah, Jared is the man. He'll probably have one of those, like, cards. Oh, wow. Like from. Oh, the arcade card. Yeah. Or whatever that is. We'll probably have one of those one day. No. Jerry's going to be there. I'm excited for it. Genuinely, I'm excited to see everybody and to play all the games. So what are, Joel, real quick before we forget everything else, I'm looking through the Stern thing. I guess at 5, this is all on Saturday, making of Jaws, the entire Jaws team, 7 p.m., Uncanny X-Men seminar. And then I think I thought I saw, well, wait, yeah, 6 o'clock, the making of John Wick. So, Elliot and Tim Sexton are going to be talking. That's going to be an interesting one. Because I know we've heard a lot of people going back and forth about that. I'm curious to see. Because I feel like they might talk about what's possibly coming in the future. So, I'm really curious to see about that. But yeah, it looks like those games are going to be talked about. Is there an Avatar seminar? At all? Anywhere? There's an evening with Jersey Jack at 9.30 on Friday. I think there's your seminar right there, 930 on Friday. But there's a lot. There's a lot to do. But all I can say is to people that have never been before. Dutch Pinball at 5 p.m. on Friday. Talk to other people. Everybody there loves pinball. They're not going to be there unless they love pinball. Talk to other people. Talk about your favorite games. All the manufacturers, if they're there, they want to talk to people. Talk to people. Talk to other podcasters that you know that you like. Streamers, anybody. If you just talk to people, talk to people, that's what's fun. Honestly, some of these shows. Except for Tom when he's in the tournament. I am not a TD. Some of these shows, honestly, I feel like I walk away, like, you know, I'll be on the floor or whatever, and it's like, how many games of pinball did I play today? And it would be like three. That's just because we just talk. Just talk to people. Have a great time. It's awesome. It's so much fun. And I will say, too, because we ran into this before also, So, like, if you walk by somebody that you know and you've already talked to them or whatever, it's perfectly fine just to wave or nod or something like that. Because, honestly, you're going to see so many people that if you stop and try to talk to everybody, you'll probably never play. Except for that one guy. That one guy at TPF that had a triple drain shirt. I still feel bad about it. Tom was there. The one guy at TPF that had the triple drain hat. That was your fault, not mine. I know. And he's like, how did you still say hi? We're like, hi. And then he walked off and was like, what the heck? It was just Joel being Joel. He just kept continuing to talk and talk and talk. But that's the good thing. It's just sometimes it's hard, too, if you are, like, going to dinner or you're on a time frame, you know, and you've got to go because I would love to be able to talk to everybody, you know. And you won't hurt my feelings if I stop to talk to you and you're like, you know what? Shit, I've got to bounce. I'll see you later. It happens all the time. Okay. Well, I think that's – I think we've got to wrap it up. That's it. Oh, Neil McCray, 2 p.m. I can't wait to see Neil. I love Neil. He's doing one, too, on Thursday. I must. Yeah. There's some good people here. There's some really, really awesome people in the pinball hobby. And if you're new to this, if you, like, just stumbled into this podcast, it's an awesome community. Everybody that loves pinball, it's such a social game to play, whether or not you're a tournament player or whatnot. Like, people want to share their collections. People want to play the game with you. People want to play against you. Like, just make friends, dollar games, whatever it is. If you need a confidence builder, challenge Joel to a game of pinball. Oh, yeah. You will feel great. And let us on that labyrinth. Then don't do it. It's a trap. If you're wondering where to find all this stuff, go to the website, pinballexpo.com. Click on event info. You can go down. It has everything there. But schedule of events is kind of what we're talking about. Perfect. find it all there. Okay, final short topic and I wanted to save it for the end because there might be people that want to turn it off. I got multiple messages and emails about my vasectomy. Multiple messages and emails like, stay strong, brother. I'm right there with you. Thanks for joining the crowd. All this. This is quite a support situation. If you want to know, feel free to continue Listen, if you don't want to know, you can turn it off right now. You can turn it off right now. I will tell you, getting a mastectomy is one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever done in my life. Oh, I bet. You're wide awake when you do it. It's just local anesthesia. What? You're just sitting there with your legs dangling? No, you're laying there. You're laying there? Laying there with just a shirt on, and this guy's coming in, And the amount of, you know, soap and everything to clean the area, checking it all out, you know, it's just like having a conversation, you know, just you do you. And then, you know, getting a shot right in the middle of your sack is something you don't experience every day. And that's something. That's just awesome. And then the way they do it, the numbing is just it spreads through everything and down your legs. It's so odd. And then the guy cuts inside. I had one incision right in the middle. Right down the center? Yeah, right. It's small. It's small. But then the guy's knuckle deep inside of me all of a sudden, digging for tubes, which he's got to pull out. So you're feeling this tug, this way inside your body in a position you've never felt before, this kind of tugging, like, soreness. and then all of a sudden that soreness is relieved because he cut it and it goes back into your body. Oh, and then he has to carterize it. So you smell that. And the whole time we're just chatting it up. He's trying to keep your mind off what he's doing. Yeah, that's a good idea. What are you even talking about? Well, he's like, hey, you travel anywhere? You take a vacation? Are you traveling anywhere for the summer? Did you say, yeah? I did. Well, actually, I just came back from a trip to Europe for work. And so we talked about Europe. While the guy is all over me. Like, he's just, my manhood is in his hands. And he's, I'm telling you, when they're digging for tubes, it's so strange. It's so strange. But snip, snip, burn, burn, and then he burns it in the middle, little stitch, and then he cleans you up again. Little stitch? Like, there's only one stitch. There were two stitches. So they carterize it. They put it back together. They carterize it. Two stitches. I'm positive we've lost our poor female listeners at this point. They're gone. Uh-oh. No, no uh-oh. No. He didn't. There was no, like, dang. He didn't. There was no. There was nothing. There was no dang. Yeah, there was. It was. Your wife must be happy. Yeah, yeah. Well, he just. It was something, man. It was something. And then that's that. 15 minutes, and they clean you up. And you put your clothes back on and you waddle out. You know, you waddle on out and then you ice your nuts for the next three days. It's just that's what happens. So that's a vasectomy. What I will tell you is the external, there's very little external pain. It's all internal. It's like I expected it was going to feel like he got kicked in the nuts for like four days straight. It's not that. Because your balls are there. It's the tubes. It's a deep pain, and it's just a soreness, and it's just strange. So, everybody, feel free to sign up. I love a referral code. If I add one, I give it to you. But it takes, you know, roughly, I don't know, a few days, and the soreness starts to go away, and then you're back at it. Not back at it, but a week later, you're up and about, and, yeah, apparently I have to. Are you saying you got to wait a week to take it out for a test drive? They did say nothing. No, nothing for a week. Damn. I'll tell you, I wasn't feeling, I don't know, I don't think anybody's going to feel that they want to do anything for a week. It is not a pleasant feeling. Yeah, I'm sure. Was there swelling? Was there swelling? There was. There was a little bit of swelling. Was there blue balls? Yeah. At one point I was like, I'm pretty sure half of me is blue down there, and it's probably going to be. And so I told my wife as your practitioner. Can you shower? You can shower after a day. Or do you have to put a bag over it? No, a bag over it, yeah. Give me that Kroger bag. Let me write. No. Oh, my God. You can shower after a day. But I was like, Nicole, I'm pretty sure half of my sack is blue. And she like, what? You know, came up, and she's like, oh, no, it's fine. She like got it. What do you mean she came up and it's fine? She's an urge practitioner. So it's like blue extremity means it's either dying or it's bruised. You're saying in your house you just, like, dropped trowel and you're like, can you check my balls? No, I just notched out. I called down and said, hey, Nicole, can you come up here for a second? She's walking up and said, what do you need? I was like, I think half my sack is blue. She's like, oh, okay, let me take a look. Look, look, look. No, it's just bruising. I think you're fine. Okay. There you go. I love it. Everybody that listens, we have listeners across the world. Across the world. Yeah. Yeah. Here's a fun question for you. I don't think I asked you this last week. What percentage of men in the U.S. get a vasectomy? What percentage? Probably half. What percentage of men? Half. I'm guessing half. That's definitely one less. Like, I'm not doing this. Travis, what do you think your percentage is of men that get a vasectomy in the U.S.? Like 30-something. Five. Five percent of men. Oh, good. Well, I'm in the 95 percent. One website said six. Sounds like suckers to me. But what is cool is insurance covered all of it. It was $0. $0. After you described it, I'm just going to take my chances on the fifth kid from here on out. Yep. So if that sounds like a good time to you, enjoy. Have a great time. You know, there's your review. Sounds awful. Yeah. Okay. Well, that was that. I knew somebody would ask, but I appreciate all the people that sent me the messages and the emails. And, yeah. So there's your, I said I'd give you an update. We got to make a clip of this. No, there's already two clips that didn't need to happen. Why didn't they scream the surgery? That's what I want to know. Why didn't they scream it? I mean, I could have. I was wide awake chatting it up the whole time. There would have been some quality flipping out content right there. But I was just laying there. I was like, yeah, then we went to listen. What is that thinking? That's what I was laying there, just like, that is a soreness that I have not, I was not expecting. You know what would have been awesome? If Jared gave commentary during the whole thing. Oh, Lord, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I realized maybe I shouldn't have, but while the guy's going at it, I asked him, this is what he does. He does seven or eight of these a day. I was like, have you had a vasectomy? Apparently I shouldn't have asked him, but he goes, no, I haven't. I'm like, great, okay. This guy doesn't even know. Like, he doesn't know what he's doing to me. He doesn't know what this feels like. Like, you don't have to pull it out that far. You know, just snip it and move on. That's all I'm saying. Anyway, whatever. Okay. That's that. I'm the first procedure. I don't think so. Well, I appreciate the support, everybody. I appreciate you, too. And I know we already plugged. We need to plug it up. We need to move on. I can't plug after that. I'm good. Like, I'll just see everybody at Expo. Travis Pinball Company. Check out Pinball Company's YouTube. See Travis at the pinball booth at Expo. Stern Pro Circuit Finals, too, on YouTube and Twitch. Yeah. Yeah. That's all I got. All right, Tom. Good day, y'all. Yep. Fox Cities Pinball. I do want to say, poor Travis, I'm going to be streaming, as we talked about, the tournament at Pinball Expo. Don't know how the internet's going to be. We're going to flip a coin on that. It's going to be great. It's going to be so good. But I'm going to record everything. So if things aren't good, it's all going to be good. Perfect. I have no doubt. Yeah. I can't control Internet issues, so I'm sorry. It's out of my hand. And then I am – I'm obviously Joel. I do this podcast, and I do the Flip N Out Pinball YouTube channel, the Flip N Out Pinball YouTube stream. So check that out. Click live at the top. I got a bunch of tutorial videos on there as well. So appreciate all that. We're trying to get to 5,000 subscribers, so please subscribe. Asher is watching your tutorials. I know he is. Yeah, you're cooked. Yeah. Okay. Please, all three of us will be at Expo. Please come say hi. Please come say hi. Yes. That's all we got. Like always, Tom, you get the last words. See you at Expo. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: dd7c95a3-8000-4a90-9c34-9a873c4e599d*