# Episode 112 - Electromechanical Designer Crash Course **Source:** Wedgehead Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2026-02-23 **Duration:** 78m 34s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** Buzzsprout-18720313 --- ## Analysis A deep-dive podcast episode on six legendary electromechanical (EM) pinball designers from the 1960s-70s, focusing on Williams designers Steve Kordek and Norm Clark. The hosts discuss design innovations (flipper positioning, drop targets, multiball, center pop layouts, relay logic), game characteristics, and the importance of recognizing individual designer contributions rather than just manufacturer brands. The episode emphasizes how EM designers were multi-disciplinary innovators who invented core pinball mechanics. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Steve Kordek worked at Williams for 63 years, longer than Harry Williams himself — _Host states Kordek 'worked there for 63 years' and 'worked at Williams longer than Harry Williams, who Williams was named after worked at Williams'_ - [HIGH] Steve Kordek placed flippers at the bottom of the playfield in 1947 — _Host: 'steve kordak put the flippers at the bottom of the playfield in 1947 and he liked to say that he put them there and they stayed there ever since'_ - [HIGH] Norm Clark invented relay logic that allowed carryover game progress in multiplayer EM games — _Host: 'norm clark actually invented relay logic that allowed for carryover game progress in a multiplayer em yeah which was unheard of' and 'he did this for his game in 1966, 8-Ball'_ - [HIGH] Norm Clark revitalized and perfected the center pop bumper layout between flippers — _Host: 'norm took a pop bumper and he stuck it right between the flippers on the bottom this was something gottlieb had done in the 50s but never as well as norm did it'_ - [HIGH] Norm Clark moved from Williams to Bally in the late 70s and headed their design division — _Host: 'norm moved on from his design position and moved on from williams he hopped over to bally in the late 70s and he headed up their design division'_ - [MEDIUM] Freedom was Bally's only center pop production game, made as prototype run of ~12 units before being abandoned — _Host: 'it's the only center pop game bally ever did the prototype they made like a dozen of them then they fucking they wussed out they got scared they put an italian bottom on it'_ - [HIGH] Grand Prix (1976) was one of Steve Kordek's last games designed — _Host: 'Grand Prix, which was towards the end of his design career in 1976. One of the last games he made.'_ - [HIGH] Steve Kordek designed the first game with drop targets (Vagabond, 1962) and first with multiball (Beat the Clock, 1963) — _Host: 'He designed the first game with a drop target vagabond in 62 and the first game with a multi-ball beat the clock in 63'_ - [HIGH] EM designers were heavily involved in inventing mechanics and rules—not just designing playfields — _Host: 'they had to do the rules themselves they were involved with the relay logic' and 'These guys were designing the games. They were engineering the games. They were doing the rules.'_ - [MEDIUM] Norm Clark and George Christian collaborated on Freedom, which was their only co-design credit — _Host: 'Norm and George collaborated, for a fact, on George Christian's first credit, or his first design credit is Freedom...That was the only one they have a co-design credit on.'_ ### Notable Quotes > "Harry Williams is God. Everybody in this hobby has to Harry Williams to thank for this hobby being what it is today." > — **Host (Alex)**, ~3:30 > _Establishes the foundational importance of Harry Williams to pinball's existence before pivoting to other designers_ > "steve kordak was kind of the guy that was like what if we put him down here and like with some skill the player could keep the ball alive for longer which crazy idea" > — **Host**, ~7:00 > _Highlights Kordek's revolutionary innovation of bottom flippers for ball control_ > "norm clark came in there it's just like wacky shit designed to steal quarters and he starts he's not just doing like playfields again he was an innovator too" > — **Host (Alex)**, ~15:00 > _Characterizes Norm Clark's aggressive, operator-focused design philosophy vs. Kordek's foundational approach_ > "you start playing it more and you feel out and you're like okay i do got control i can actually the center pop and you're like oh i can save balls with the center yeah" > — **Host**, ~22:00 > _Describes the visceral gameplay experience of center pop layouts and emerging player mastery_ > "the fight for control is a huge part of what makes games fun to me. And dude, the Norm games, the fight for control in some of these is so good." > — **Host (Alex)**, ~26:00 > _Core thesis on what makes EM games compelling beyond shooting mechanics_ > "if i could you know like snap my fingers and change every standard italian bottom game to a center pop game in a heartbeat i would dude" > — **Host (Alex)**, ~39:00 > _Expresses strong advocacy for center pop as superior layout to modern standard Italian bottom design_ > "you look back this era everybody's trying things and nowadays you don't you don't want to try things because you stick your neck out too far you get your fucking head cut off" > — **Host (Alex)**, ~40:30 > _Critiques modern manufacturer risk aversion compared to EM-era experimental innovation_ > "that freedom better not be a prototype with the center pop because that fucking thing is coming home i don't care how much work it takes to get this thing done" > — **Host (Roads/co-host)**, ~49:00 > _Shows collector passion for rare center pop prototype variant_ > "ems are like pokemon yeah you have to collect them all yourself because you're not gonna see um like it's hard man" > — **Host (Alex)**, ~32:00 > _Humorous comparison highlighting the rarity and collectibility challenge of EM machines_ > "norm was a selfless dude. I think he learned from Steve. Steve and him collaborated on a lot of stuff, and Steve kept his name off of it. He let Norm put his name on." > — **Host**, ~45:30 > _Characterizes mentorship chain (Steve Kordek → Norm Clark → George Christian) and collaborative humility_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Steve Kordek | person | Legendary Williams pinball designer (1937-2000); worked at Williams for 63 years; invented bottom flipper placement (1947), drop targets (Vagabond, 1962), multiball (Beat the Clock, 1963); head of Williams design department; designed Grand Prix (1976) | | Norm Clark | person | Williams designer (early 1960s onward); Steve Kordek protégé; invented relay logic for multiplayer carryover (1966, 8-Ball); perfected center pop bumper layout; moved to Bally late 1970s as design division head; mentored George Christian | | Harry Williams | person | Founder/namesake of Williams Electronics; pinball pioneer; previously covered in Wedgehead episode 20 with Roger Sharp | | George Christian | person | Early solid-state era designer; protégé of Norm Clark; co-designed Freedom with Clark (only co-credit); potentially ghost-written by Norm Clark according to some accounts | | Roger Sharp | person | Pinball historian; featured guest on Wedgehead episode 20 discussing Harry Williams | | Steve Ritchie | person | Modern pinball designer; frequently name-dropped by hosts as contemporary legend | | Pat Lawlor | person | Modern pinball designer; frequently name-dropped by hosts as contemporary legend | | Keith Elwin | person | Modern pinball designer; frequently name-dropped by hosts as contemporary legend | | Nick Schell | person | Pinball collector/curator; runs Roanoke Pinball Museum in Roanoke, Virginia; center pop enthusiast | | Williams Electronics | company | Major pinball manufacturer (1930s-2000s); employed Steve Kordek (63 years) and Norm Clark; exited pinball division after Norm Clark departed | | Bally Manufacturing | company | Major pinball manufacturer; Norm Clark joined late 1970s as design division head; created 'golden years' of Bally pinball design; produced Freedom (only center pop game, ~12 prototype units) | | Gottlieb | company | Historical pinball manufacturer; hosts mention Gottlieb wedgehead games; invented center pop in 1950s (predating Norm Clark's refinement) | | Roanoke Pinball Museum | organization | Museum in Roanoke, Virginia; run by Nick Schell; center pop game collection | | Wedgehead Pinball Podcast | organization | The source podcast; based in Portland; hosts discuss EM and classic pinball; have Ko-fi/Discord community | | Seattle Pinball Museum | organization | Venue featuring playable EM games; has Bobo (1961) by Steve Kordek available | | Grand Prix | game | Steve Kordek Williams design (1976); three-inch flipper game; host's second-favorite machine; highly regarded, especially in Portland | | Spanish Eyes | game | Norm Clark Williams EM with three-inch flippers and center pop; hosts' favorite Williams EM to play; highly addictive | | 8-Ball | game | Norm Clark Williams design (1966); first game to feature relay logic allowing multiplayer carryover progress; notable for technology but not widely adopted due to cost | | Doodle Bug | game | Norm Clark Williams EM; three-inch floating flippers with gap preventing cradle; difficult, addictive; host recently purchased for $300 | | Freedom | game | Bally design; Norm Clark & George Christian co-credit; only center pop production game Bally made; ~12 prototype units before abandonment; switched to Italian bottom in production; hosts recently saw at estate sale | ### Topics - **Primary:** Steve Kordek's design innovations and legacy, Norm Clark's design philosophy and center pop perfection, EM-era mechanical and relay logic innovations, Center pop vs. Italian bottom playfield layout debate - **Secondary:** Modern manufacturer design conservatism vs. EM-era experimentation, Mentorship chains in pinball design (Kordek → Clark → Christian), Recognition of individual designers vs. manufacturer branding, Ball control and fight mechanics as core gameplay element ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.82) — Hosts are enthusiastic, reverent toward EM designers and their innovations. Strong passion for center pop mechanics and criticism of modern conservatism is the only notably negative element, but framed as constructive critique rather than hostility. ### Signals - **[community_signal]** Wedgehead Podcast maintaining Discord community for listeners to discuss pinball, fundraising via Ko-fi for listener support (confidence: high) — Host pitch: 'go to ko-fi.com slash wedgehead podcast there's a link there in the show notes click on that donate a couple bucks join us in the discord' - **[competitive_signal]** Hosts advocate for center pop as optimal competitive/casual gameplay mechanic; suggest modern boutique manufacturers should experiment with non-Italian-bottom layouts (confidence: medium) — Host: 'if you're a boutique company and you're making runs of 200 500 games like you could try something else...you're cowards dude you're cowards don't even smoke crack don't even fucking center pop it's just yeah it's a shame' - **[design_philosophy]** Center pop layout widely abandoned in modern era in favor of 'Italian bottom' despite hosts' conviction that center pop is superior and more engaging gameplay (confidence: high) — Host: 'if i could you know like snap my fingers and change every standard italian bottom game to a center pop game in a heartbeat i would dude...it would make every game more fun' - **[design_philosophy]** Norm Clark's games were designed with aggressive, quarter-extracting operator mentality (difficult, short play sessions) vs. Kordek's balanced, foundational approach (confidence: medium) — Host: 'norm came in there it's just like wacky shit designed to steal quarters...norm just seemed like he was out to get quarters in a way' - **[design_philosophy]** Modern pinball manufacturers are risk-averse compared to EM era when designers constantly experimented; hosts view this as industry-wide constraint (cost, dev time, IP protection) (confidence: high) — Host: 'you look back this era everybody's trying things and nowadays you don't you don't want to try things because you stick your neck out too far you get your fucking head cut off' - **[design_philosophy]** Hosts argue that EM designers (particularly Norm Clark) were heavily involved in mechanical innovation, rules creation, and relay logic—not just playfield art—contrasting with modern separation of disciplines (confidence: high) — Host: 'they had to do the rules themselves they were involved with the relay logic...These guys were designing the games. They were engineering the games. They were doing the rules.' - **[market_signal]** EM designers deserve recognition as individual creative figures (like modern designers: Ritchie, Lawlor, Elwin) rather than being subsumed under manufacturer brand identity (confidence: high) — Host: 'we really talk about them via their manufacturers...That's disrespectful to the guys...we should know their names. I want more people to know them.' - **[market_signal]** EM machines are rare and difficult to find in playable condition; this scarcity limits casual player exposure and education about EM design (confidence: high) — Host: 'EMS just have to be at the right time, right place...they're not really around they're kind of hard to find and then if they don't play well' - **[personnel_signal]** Norm Clark moved from Williams to Bally in late 1970s to head design division, replicating Steve Kordek's transition from designer to department head (confidence: high) — Host: 'norm moved on from his design position and moved on from williams he hopped over to bally in the late 70s and he headed up their design division...he became steve kordek over at valley' - **[announcement]** Episode explicitly not covering Harry Williams (previously covered in episode 20); focusing instead on six other EM designers across three major manufacturers (confidence: high) — Host: 'we're skipping him. We're moving into arguably the next biggest name associated with Williams...focusing on six of what should be household names' --- ## Transcript Pretty Woman as you Mercy Pretty woman won't you pardon me Pretty woman I couldn't help but see Pretty woman and you look lovely as can be Are you lonely just like me Wow! water boy and i can't wait to plug our coffee fundraiser ah yeah you get to do it because it's an alex episode yes that's right that's right and i'm happy to do it you know it's a place for listeners and fans of the show if you want to support the show and join our growing group of misfits in the private discord server we have go to ko-fi.com slash wedgehead podcast there's a link there in the show notes click on that donate a couple bucks join us in the discord where we are chopping it up, talking all things pinball. You talk about the show, the other fans of the show, or other people that are involved in pinball, and it's always a good time and a good way to waste some of your employers' time. That's the pitch. I notice a lot of the people in there a lot of the time have office jobs. Not too many blue-collar guys spending eight hours a day in the Discord. But it's a good time. It's a good group of people in there. It's fun. It's always fun talking about random shit that we don't get into on the podcast, right? That's the whole purpose. Yeah. It's just a way for us to talk about all the other things that are happening in pinball, including Pokemon and all other games that might be coming out. Exactly. That's not what we're here to talk about today. Not just the coffee. Some people might think that's all we do is plug our coffee. That's not all we do. And today we're doing something that we do occasionally like to do. Let's talk about old pinball. If you've been in this hobby for a while, you probably know the names of a lot of game designers like Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawler, Keith Elwin. We name drop these guys all the time. You see their games everywhere. They're all time greats. But what about the early time greats? How many designers can you name that started working on electromechanical games? It turns out I can't list very many. I love EMs. And I know a lot of our listeners do too. So today we're turning the clock back a bit and giving you guys a crash course on EM designers, focusing on six of what should be household names working during pinball's heyday in the 60s and 70s. I'm going to try to say their names a lot so you can actually retain them. That's my goal. Yeah. Because we have to be like the point is to make these names that the reason we're doing this episode is it's like we always talk about we talk about EMs a lot. And we talk, we do occasionally name drop a handful of EM designers, but we really talk about them via their manufacturers. We're like, yeah, we don't like Bally's. We like Gottlieb's. Williams feel like this. They feel like that. We don't do that with modern games and modern being 1980 and up. Yeah, totally. And it becomes focused on the designer, the design team. And I'm like, that's disrespectful to the guys. Like these guys, they're doing as well. They were doing a lot. They were designing the games. They were engineering the games. They were doing the rules. The designers back in the day were like all hands like they were really involved. And so I'm like, it's really doing a disservice to these guys. And I say guys, they literally were all guys. I'm sorry. But these guys doing like the work back in the day, we should know their names. I want more people to know them. I want to be able to have conversations on their influences and be able to name drop them and have people know who the hell I'm talking about. So that's what this episode is about. Six biggies for you. Sound good? I'm excited, dude. You know I love EMs. Yep, and we're going to do this grouped by the three. We're just focusing on the three big manufacturers. There's a lot more than six EM designers. There's a lot more than three EM manufacturers. We're just focusing on six. We can only do six in an episode. It was already hard. I started writing this outline, and it almost turned into just two. So we'll see if we can even get through the six. First, though, we're going to start with Williams. You're probably sitting there thinking, I know this one. They're going to talk about Harry Williams. You're wrong. We're not talking about Harry Williams because we already talked about Harry Williams with Mr. Roger Sharp. We did a fantastic episode on him way back early in the year. I think that's like episode 20 or something like that. We were just a couple of kids. Yeah. Look at us now. Yeah. We're talking to Roger Sharp. I don't even know what you're doing back then. But yeah, it's a great episode. Go listen to that. Harry Williams. Absolutely. He shouldn't be a household name. He should be like a fucking Jesus level name. If you play pinball, you shove a picture of Harry Williams in every room like a Catholic house has a crucifix. Yeah, exactly. Harry Williams is the man. Harry Williams is God. Everybody in this hobby has to Harry Williams to thank for this hobby being what it is today. Absolutely. So we're skipping him. We're moving into arguably the next biggest name associated with Williams, and that is Steve Kordek. Steve Kordek started working for Ginkgo, a different pinball manufacturer, in 1937 after ducking into their building to dodge some rain, which I thought was funny. It is a funny story. They're hiring. He's like, ah, you guys are hiring. And he starts working for a pinball manufacturer. Designed some games for them, mostly flipperless stuff. But he's best known for his work at Williams, which started in the late 50s. He more or less quit designing games around the transition to solid state tech in the late 70s. And that's when he became the head of Williams' design department. and he stayed at Williams until after they killed the pinball division, which I thought was interesting. They let him stay on a little bit later, kind of like take care of some odds and ends, until in 2000. So he worked there for 63 years. Fucking insane. Yeah. He worked at Williams longer than Harry Williams, who Williams was named after worked at Williams. Oh, by a large part. By a large part. Harry Williams dipped. He made his money and was like, I'll do some contract work. He retired, moved to California, did cool guy shit, flew an airplane yeah steve kordak though he's a fucking company man absolutely you don't get guys like this these millennials now they're always hopping jobs every four years steve kordak 63 years and he's a biggie like his design work very important his his work leading williams unheralded incredibly important for the hobby absolutely his design work too he's very famous for putting the flippers this is steve kordak i'm gonna keep working the name into this naturally right that was natural steve kordak put the flippers at the bottom of the playfield in 1947 and he liked to say that he put them there and they stayed there ever since he loved telling this story at every pinball expo every time he was interviewed and to his point you know it wasn't immediately obvious when the flippers came out that they needed to be at the bottom of the playfield they were they were introduced to humpty dumpty and they're just kind of there to kind of like fuck with the ball a little bit but the ball's still falling down the flippers were not there to fight to keep the ball up on the play field like we think of flippers now yes and steve kordak was kind of the guy that was like what if we put him down here and like with some skill the player could keep the ball alive for longer which crazy idea as an operator i would have been so goddamn mad i'd be like what the hell is he doing i'd be like this game they used to games used to take 15 seconds now they're taking 30 yeah imagine that it's funny though but yeah he so he really kind of in a way it could be argued invented what we think of as flipper pinball he designed the first game with a drop target vagabond in 62 and the first game with a multiball beat the clock in 63 some other notable games from mr steve kordek were bobo 1961 it's playable at the seattle pinball Museum. Very funny clown-based game. Heat Wave, 1964, seen in John Carpenter's The Thing. Beat Time, featuring the Boodles in 1967. It's a parody game of the Beatles. Very, very, very obvious Beatles knockoff game. And what most people seem to know Steve Kordak's name for in terms of design is Grand Prix, which was towards the end of his design career in 1976. One of the last games he made. Phenomenal, phenomenal three-inch game. I've got one in the basement. Everybody in Portland seems to love Grand Prix. Everyone always tries to buy that game from me. It ain't leaving. Yeah, my cold, dead hands. I keep saying it's the cheapest game in my collection. I guess now I've got that doodle bug. That'll come up in a second. Grand Prix is the second cheapest game in my collection. It'll be the last to leave. yeah because i'm like it's the game i put the most time on the most games on i just fucking love grand prix man incredibly addicting game very very good so going through like that list of games going off what you know about steve well how would you kind of describe his games what's the vibe of a steve cordat game what are some design characteristics so i think it's you know it should not be undersold that he basically created how we think of a pinball machine to be which like you said the plunge goes up to the top which was always back in the day from the bingos to the bagatelles or whatever they all started their plunge and nudge games he put the flippers at the bottom to send the ball up towards the top of the play field again yep put keep the ball up and so he creates that sort of that tantalizing moment that all pinball has been since which is the ball is this fucking close to the to the drain it's that tight rope walk of the ball is in danger right here and you have two flippers to try to fend off the danger yep you're like this is death the only thing between you and death is steve kordex two inch flipper that he put there you know and so he also put slings above the flippers in a lot of his games yeah in very similar ways now like even before the games had inlanes uh and stuff like that which we know the slings just above the yeah immediately adjacent to the flipper and he also like heat wave which is a game i love does a couple games with swinging targets back and forth yeah that's a big thing uh again like the pop bumper nests up at the top of the play field to get action when the ball's up at the top of the play field yep these early games did not have very strong flippers so it's like you're kind of playing the pops up top flippers down below it feels like a little bit yep and yeah he's it's a hard one for me because i don't i it's hard to look at his playfields and be like oh these were particularly inspiring you know or inspired they're pretty plain jane playfields They're almost all symmetrical. Some of them are instant classics. Some Steve Kordak games are just kind of duds. Yeah, totally. I mean, he made a lot of games. And there's a lot of games that you don't really hear anybody talking about. But there's also games that are like all-time classics. And that's kind of what happens when you're just kind of like, yeah, you're just cranking games out for the company in this era. You're making games every couple months. Like you have a new game out. Like every two months you have new games out. of all of these guys we're talking about today is absolutely insane when you see how many games they were responsible for it's fucking crazy that's this is a tough one for me because it's like design characteristics what i think of his games i'm like kind of boring playfields some of them are very very fun it's even like grand prix the first time i saw grand prix i'm like it's symmetrical doesn't really look that interesting it's just a couple of spinners you're not like you're really not shooting much on grand prix other than like two drops two spinners and then you play it and you're like this is magic it's like an incredibly addicting role set it feels like he really understood the fight you know he invented the fight heat waves phenomenal game that's a fun one because it's one that he's got like that goofy lower third in it with the rubber between the flippers and he did that with some of them yeah he waves the game i would love to have man i would love to have one of these like this is the thing about ems and people that if you're listening and you're not into ems yet i don't blame you because they're not really around they're kind of hard to find and then if they don't play well and whatever whatever but like dude there is a point in your pinball life where you're gonna play the right em at the right time suddenly they'll click all of a sudden you'll be like what the fuck i thought these things were pokey and stupid yeah i mean it's gonna be like when it's gonna be like when a 70 year old mom plays Candy Crush for the first time. You know how you guys all know how this goes, right? When like, you know, you just get some people just play Candy Crush for the first time, and then it's like they're Candy Crushing for the rest of their life. And you will eventually have that Candy Crush moment with the right EM, I believe. I really believe if you enjoy pinball for the same reasons I enjoy it, then the EMS just have to be at the right time, right place. Suddenly it'll happen. in Steve's games are just like that simple fight that can just be so like addicting. Yeah, no, he's fantastic. I'd also say this is the one it's like if you're playing a Williams game and it's got two inch flippers and you're thinking, hey, that's not true because we'll get into the next next guy did some two inch flipper games, too. But if you're playing an early Williams game and you think it's fun and it's not a wood rail, if it's a wood rail and it's fun, it's Harry Williams. If it's not a wood rail and it's an early Williams and it's fun, it's a Steve Kordek. Yes, it's kind of how it goes. so yeah like i said he transitioned into a lead the department lead role head of the design department uh but he did train up a protege before he transferred to that role his fucking uh anakin skywalker you know if you will and that would be we're talking about steve kordak i just got to say the name a couple more times steve kordak steve kordak but his protege would be mr norm clark norm started at williams in the early 60s with his first design credit on kingpin in 62 and immediately he gets funky with it dude yeah you see this play field it's like insane it's got four little flippers it's two inch flippers it's got a it's got a kicker in the middle like where the center drain would be center drain is it's got four drains but it's got four flippers and a center kicker is batshit crazy honestly you're like whoa whoa he's doing a lot different stuff like steve kordex games are kind of like simple straight up pinball like this is this is good wholesome pinball and i feel like norm came in and he's like why don't we do something else like why don't we do something crazy and it's just oh norm is just a man after my steve steve kordex like hank williams senior yeah and then like norm clark's like johnny cash exactly you know like that's exactly you're like yeah they're both outlaw country and you're like yeah but like one taught the other one how to do it right and i like steve kordex games i don't want to dismiss them i really think some of his late games are very very good i think some of his early games are very very good so he he spanned a big era but i'm like dude norm clark came in there it's just like wacky shit designed to steal quarters and he starts he's not just doing like playfields again he was an innovator too they're all the guys from this era are like actively inventing shit on their game all the time which is so funny in like you don't think about this at all now but they had to do the rules themselves they were involved with the relay logic and norm clark actually invented relay logic that allowed for carryover game progress in a multiplayer em yeah which was unheard of it's the whole reason wedge heads from gottlieb single player games are higher regarded because they can have more complicated rules because EMs typically have to clear all your progress between multiplayer games. Yes. Because they're using all of the same relays for both players scoring. So it's like they keep your score active, but they like if you have lit targets, those targets will all be wiped on a multiplayer. Norm Clark managed to invent a way to save that and he did this for his game in 1966, 8-Ball, which was crazy development, big thing. I know from his grandson that he was very proud of that. And it's a really impressive bit of technology. But I also know that it's complicated and it was expensive. And they did not implement it in very many games moving forward because of that, which is a shame. But it's also like that is the nature of the game. I think it just shows that Norm was kind of like thinking outside the box. He was trying to deliver a different experience. It's just it's cool stuff. It's crazy what these guys were doing. The thing that you and I, Alan, are probably more excited about on 8.0 would be something Norm didn't invent. but definitely revitalized and that was the center pop layout which is when you put a center a pop bumper like you would normally see steve old man steve kordek he put those things up top on the game right keep something to do while you're up top and norm took a pop bumper and he stuck it right between the flippers on the bottom this was something gottlieb had done in the 50s but never as well as norm did it no one and even and even harry williams did it yep one of his game one of his early games it was something that had been done but it's kind of it's funny because we we look at back at this and the whole timeline compresses with age but it's like that was an idea no one had touched for 10 years you know like that's quite a while with how fast everything's advancing and so norm's looking back for inspiration brings back the center pop layout and just does absolute magic with the center pop layout man dude norm's center pop games are the most fun ems in the world yeah there's so much fun to play i am absolutely i'm just fucking obsessed with center pop games part of my obsession stems from the fact that there are none to play around the portland area and this kills me and i keep trying to find one to buy and they're always 12 hours away or in not you know unplayable shape or mystery condition but his center pop games absolutely iconic that's what he's most known for at least in our circle those games include eight ball miss oh magic town and city those were all two inch flipper games and then his three inch flipper games were spanish eyes and fantastic spanish eyes is probably i mean it's definitely my favorite williams em of all time it's maybe my favorite em to play it is damn close to for me it such a great game it so addictive to play it so so so addicting in a way because you like you start feeling out the control of that center pop the first time you play you like ah this is crazy like i can control this it's impossible and then you you start playing it more and you feel out and you're like okay i do got control i can actually the center pop and you're like oh i can save balls with the center yeah they go down that gaping like the middle drain but there's rubber beneath it so it bounces back on the center pop you nudge it it grabs the edge of the pop it throws it back up into play It's the definition of like playing the like playing the lower third in a way that we absolutely do not get in modern pinball at all. Which is why I love EM games so much. Dude, because the lower third, the lower thirds, like maybe the layouts to the layperson don't seem that exciting or a lot of them are kind of samey towards one another. but even then it's like man those lower thirds nothing was standard back then no idea was too outrageous and you just get a lot of dynamic action yep so so so engaging to play just fighting for ball control in a way that you absolutely i mean when you've been playing pinball long enough it's like shooting at stuff that's one piece of the puzzle the the other piece of it the big one fighting for ball control. It's something I bring up quite a bit when I'm trying to talk about games, trying to convince people why games are fun because that fight for control is a huge part of what makes games fun to me. And dude, the Norm games, the fight for control in some of these is so good. Some of his other notable titles from Mr. Norm Clark would be Blast Off for Apollo. That's a very highly regarded classic single player. William's two-inch flipper game. It's got a bagatelle in the back, launches it's it's obviously rocket themed if you can't tell from blast off and apollo and it launches a little ball up like a rocket very very cute mech really fun game overall yukon he made like three different versions of it there's one that's it's called special yukon on pin side it's the one that we gotta play when we're at pendastic in allentown game of the game of that show dude that was the one that blew us away that thing was awesome and it was like they again they were making all these different variations of games it makes it kind of hard sometimes to figure out which ones you like and that's why you got to play them all you got to play them all man just like pokemon that's what that's the that's the pinball news of the day right that's like yeah we figured it out ems are like pokemon yeah you have to collect them all yourself because you're not gonna see um like it's hard man that's that's the hard part about ems that's why we're trying to tell you these names so when you see a local game for sale you can go oh i know i like games that feel like a like a fight for control i like goofy flipper stuff you see a game listed up you're like oh that's a norm clark game you know a norm clark game is going to be interesting it's going to be something fun it's gonna be kooky dude it is another one uh straddle flight that's one of his like big sellers you see those pop up it came in a few different versions sold the shit out of those a noteworthy love hate title is doodle bug which i picked up a cheap copy of doodle bug recently and it was one i had been every time i see a doodle bug at a show i would play it and i'd be like that game's so fucking fun yeah every time i see one i'm like dude that's like i'm like that's the game you know i got one in the garage was really rough copy is 300 bucks i got it one thing it wasn't doodling when i bought it got it doodling fucking awesome game yeah maniacally difficult i was it's unbelievably it's got floating flippers it's three inch flippers but there's a gap between them and the slings so you can't cradle the ball and it's insane and it has feeds the that alone wouldn't be that upsetting but it has feeds that feed right to the back of those flippers so if you try to catch on the flipper it just shoots right through the gap yeah remarkable super fun game super addicting that thing had to make so much money back in the day yeah i would bet it's got a great because once you see the thing doodle or even when you see the the doodle below the play field you're like well i want to see it do that it's a big commotion when it's doodling and that's that's kind of what i would define like norm just seemed like he was out to get quarters in a way like he was hungry for earnings in a way that some of these other guys they were too busy trying to deliver like a fun balance they must have had some quota like games need to play for a minute or something and norm was like games will play as short as i fucking want yeah and his games are mean as hell and they're so addicting yeah in a way that no other ems really get me like these norm clark games that's why i really wanted to do an episode about norm we figured we should probably cover some other people but we just wanted to get i wanted to give norm some attention there what are your feelings on norm clark games anything i haven't said anything to add no i think he was like i said i think he was kind of like the johnny cash figure where it's like he took what was given to him by steve and just sort of like advanced the form further like all these guys do they're building on the shoulders of giants that's still happening to this day right harry williams comes in basically makes pinball steve cordat comes in basically defines what pinball really is now and then norm clark kind of like comes in and it's like now we can make it fun yeah yeah exactly you know what i mean it's like now now i do want to say like there are horribly boring norm clark games he made a lot of games All of these guys made a lot of games. It's great. But it's like his best work is very dynamic. He likes rollover switches a lot in a lot of his games. Like Apollo has just a whole line of rollovers, like right up, right down the center. That Kingpin, his first game has the rollovers in the center of the play field. Like those little button rollovers. The little button rollovers. Like he, that's something he uses a lot. uh like we said his most iconic is the center pop which alex and i say this is the best pinball layout we got suckered and we got bamboozled as a population of pinball players by playing these fucking italian bottom games dude dude absolutely center pop is the best layout for pins if if i could you know like snap my fingers and change every standard italian bottom game to a center pop game in a heartbeat i would dude i know it would make every game more fun people wouldn't like it but it would be dude can you imagine playing like a modern game especially a modern game with ramps that have in-lane feeds so it's not hell yeah it would be so fun be so much fun you're like guys we can dream bigger than the italian bottom i know it's a scary thing to do but if you're a boutique company and you're making runs of 200 500 games like you could try something else that's the that's the crazy part you look back this era everybody's trying things and nowadays you don't you don't want to try things because you stick your neck out too far you get your fucking head cut off it's it's sad and you're like i wish i don't know i wish we could somehow i know the development times are longer everything because every the parts cost more as we have to deliver a deeper game to match the price yeah and you're like okay okay okay i'm hearing a lot of excuses i'm not seeing any i'm not seeing any center pop games i don't know that's my feelings alex is saying you're cowards dude you're cowards don't even smoke crack don't even fucking center pop it's just yeah it's a shame it's a shame that the stopped norm moved on from his design position and moved on from williams he hopped over to bally in the late 70s and he headed up their design division uh during the absolutely basically became steve kordek over at valley yep he followed in his mentor steps and he created arguably the best creative division pinball company has ever had yeah it's hard to argue it's pretty up there valley's golden years dude yeah like the five years wait right when he came in there and it was just like the it's like he's had a creative running like art directors running the designers they're making the best games of all time yeah it's insane he also got his own protege a guy named george christian who we name drop on this show often often because we think he's the best designer of that early solid state era yeah man and a lot of people will even say that not only were norm and George very close, but some people are saying, actually, these were ghosts written by Norm, that George Christian games were basically ghost designed. That's what I've heard. I think Norm was a selfless dude. I think he learned from Steve. Steve and him collaborated on a lot of stuff, and Steve kept his name off of it. He let Norm put his name on. Norm and George collaborated, for a fact, on George Christian first credit, or his first design credit is Freedom. Is that what it is? That was the only one they have a co-design credit on. it's got a center pop it's the only center pop game bally ever did the prototype they made like a dozen of them then they fucking they wussed out they got scared they put an italian bottom on it which is really a bummer because that was the only time someone did an asymmetrical quote-unquote modern layout what i consider a modern layout like a solid state layout with a center pop and it didn't hit production it's the biggest shame we were roads and i were just out at an estate sale with a bunch of just old em pins in an kind of like an old building and we were going through the games and i saw freedom and like we're going through games we're just trying to help the people trying to organize this estate sale just know what they got and what the value of these games are so they could you know sort of uh sell these games off this is like i don't know like 30 of them in this shed this outbuilding and one of them i saw i was like oh shit that's a freedom and i looked at roads because i was like these games were in rough shape they were like abandoned they clearly didn't work they were very as is like beyond projects like bad shape and i looked at that i was looking at that freedom and roads was just like what are you looking at i was like that freedom better not be a prototype with the center pop because that fucking thing is coming home i don't care how much work it takes to get this thing done we're still out there people have them I know Nick Schell from the Roanoke Pinball Museum over in Roanoke, Virginia. He's a big Center Pop fan, and I know they've got one of the prototype ones. He's talked about disassembling, scanning the playfield, making replica playfields so you could rebuild the production. Because then you could get a solid state freedom, convert it, the pops would rip. Wouldn't that be sick? Oh, man. So if by some miracle, if someone sends this along to Nick Schell, if he's listening to the show, please continue that project. I would be very interested in purchasing one if you can scan a play field. Oh, man. That'd be, like, incredible. Because Norm Clark's the man. We need more Norm Clark games. Fucking love that. Just love his games. Anyway, moving on from Williams, we're going to talk next about Bally, where Norm went later. But we're talking about the EM era right now. And when you talk Bally EMs, there's one guy that comes up more than anybody else. That is Ted Zale. He's perhaps the best known Bally designer. His first game credit was in 63, and he designed for 10 years, but he made a big impact in that time. Some of his noteworthy titles are Starjet, 63. That's probably the most desirable early Ted game. Mad World in 64. That's probably my favorite Ted Zale game. capersville is one that comes up alligator cool art gets come brought up a lot because wedgehead has an alligator mascot yep so we're always very aware of alligator and then you get to his heavy hitters at the end of his career which are four million bc fireball and nip it four million bc absolutely loaded game dinosaur themed just tons of mechs going on on it crazy shit sold very well people love this thing fireball insanely successful game that spawned a number of sequels and uh uh you know a remastered version 10 years later nip it also very iconic it's the it's the pinball machine that's shown in happy days even though it was built long after the game takes or after the show takes place yep it's the game that the fawns is always playing right yeah in the first couple seasons yep it's also it's got an alligator it's been on the floor at wedge in the past and yeah people really love these games alan do you love these games yeah this is going to be the saddest part of this whole episode this was the one yeah i kind of was like we got to talk about ted zale ted zale's a household name people really like ted zale games alan and i don't particularly love ted zale games here's the thing it's like he was really the first guy that regularly was like fuck symmetrical playfields i'm going i'm going asymmetrical his layouts look awesome yeah his layouts look 20 years ahead of their time he's making games in the early 60s that look like other games in the early 80s the unfortunate part is his games are riddled with Bally's mushroom targets. Oh, man. His, like, little mushroom bumper target things. Least satisfying targets in all of pinball. You get no kinetic feedback from them. You can't tell if the ball has even hit them. The ball lightly brushes the side, and that might be enough to unzip your zipper flippers, because he loved putting zipper flippers in games. The flippers on these Bally's, he put a lot of zipper flippers on games, even the games without zipper flippers. he tucked the flippers kind of back behind the slings a bit the slings are very flat and horizontal so they pop the ball kind of up and wide arcs up the play field instead of less like side to side crack crack crack crack they kind of go pop boom and so the games the slings facing the slings are like a 45 degree angle instead of like a 80 degree angle like a modern sling is the flippers don't really give you much sense of control the zipper flippers are just kind of to me feel like a little bit of a crutch it's like okay now you can kind of just like let the ball sit there on the if for anyone that's unaware zipper flippers are a bally mechanism where the flippers they're the two inch flippers small em flippers and they literally zip together to close the gap between the flippers entirely so it's impossible to drain while the zippers are will the flippers are zippered yeah well i mean you can you can flail and lose the ball but yeah the idea is that they come together he also the angle of the flippers change so it's like Ted Zale games are the first games where there are definitely when the the flippers are zipped together you can back hand shots yeah that is like the first time and that's why i think some of the layouts work better than others mad world is the one that i remember being like oh shit like i actually kind of like feel this out yeah maybe i'd come around if i played his games more i've put a decent bit of time on them though i just think they're not for me they're very i would say they're not for me either the ted's ale games to me the defining characteristics of a ted's ale game is incredibly forward thinking layouts and then little like not good flipper arrangement and ruined with mushroom bumpers mushroom bumpers are bad yeah but he was you know really loading loading these games and for some em heads this is their absolute favorite shit like this is like ted zale is their dude dude some people it's like the ted zale i mean you see lineups online where guys are just it's all zale games it's kind of like how people have all l1 lineups now in their house there there are those em guys they're like these ballys feel very much like the uh like an early jjp where it's like they were trying to prove something with how much shit they could put in the game yeah it's like you see like a four million bc fireball nip it they're loaded with stuff they're heavy games they're like there's so many like little moving pieces on them and like interesting max cool like there's cool stuff going on they are fun to play for the novelty alone i mean all of these games as always play every pinball machine yeah for sure but the the ted games i i just need to be convinced still that's all i will say but like every em designer ted had a protégé. It's a recurring theme. It's very funny to me going through this. And Ted's protégé was a man by the name of Greg Kamek. Greg Kamek started right where Ted left off in his first design credit is Amigo in 1974. Amigo immediately, he takes the forward thinking, you know, layout of a Ted Zale game. Amigo looks a lot like a late 70s or an early or a solid state game to me. And he puts an Italian bottom on it with three inch flippers. And suddenly these Bally's are like in the fight. Greg Kamek shows up and immediately it's like it feels like Bally jumped 10 years when Greg Kamek made his game. It's crazy. He goes on to make some very, very popular and well-regarded Bally EMs and essentially ushers in the design language used during Bally's golden age the early 80s under the supervision of Norm Clark. Norm Clark comes over at the time Greg Kmeck was still working at that time together they're making some great games for Bally but that was after Greg was already making great games you know on Bally on his own in the EM era. Some noteworthy EMs that he did was basically every design credit but his first game at three inch flippers as far as i can recall as far as i know he didn't ever go back to two inch flippers so all of his games feel like pretty modern to me he did not use the mushroom targets that ted liked to put in all of his games and yeah the whole thing again they just suddenly it's like it feels like they jump it's like a whole new era when greg komet came in some of my favorites hocus pocus 1975 great game feels very forward feels very ahead of its time to me wizard it's the first licensed game, sells 10,000 units in 1975. Old Chicago, it kicks ass in 1976. That game rules, dude. Old Chicago has got, like, the pops down below. Old Chicago is an interesting one. Yeah. Because it's kind of, like, it feels kind of, like, throwback-y, but it's three-inch flippers. It's got, like, a center saucer, which feels very much like an early 60s kind of EM thing. But then it's got, like, a spinner, and it's got, like, a set of drops over on the side. And it's like, oh, shit, there's more going on here. I love that game. Captain Fantastic, also in 76, 16,000 units. Yeah, pushing numbers. Dude, and then his last EM is Knight Rider, which bridges the gap into the solid state era. They made it as both an EM and as a solid state. It's a licensed trucking theme. You're probably thinking, oh, did they get the Freightliner license? No, they got the license for the ham radio. The CB, sorry. Oh, interesting. Yeah if you go look at it it got an actual license for CB radio and they like approved that It super funny to me And yeah he continued his design work into the Solid State era and he kept dominating with some hits like Paragon Harlem Xenon Transporter And, like, the late 80s, System 11 is him. His last credit is Capcom's Break Shot, which is kind of cool. It's like he went and did some ramp games. He got to end his career. No ramps, like God intended. Cool arc. I like it when guys get to go back to a game without ramps. Yeah. I was happy when Mark Ritchie got to do Pulp Fiction, finally make a game without ramps. no bullshit you know because his first game was firepower 2 yeah with a ramp so he finally got to do one proper game yeah i like that i just like it when the old designers get to do uh throwback style games and yeah greg come back fucking crushed man what do you think about his games what's his vibe i think you're right on here with like he created the design language used during bad bally's golden age and i do agree that his like mid 70s his early to mid 70s ems really start feeling like games five years later yeah it's like orbit spinner the italian bottoms there with the slings and the full-size flippers a lot yeah mostly symmetrical design still even when people are moving into asymmetrical which is why it's funny that he's ted zale's protege because ted zale was like not this is clearly one where it's like a fucking like teenager rebellion it feels like where he's like i'm not and not perfect symmetry either we're seeing these protégés in this era very quickly try to do something like they want to stand out they want to be like now man that's old man shit i'm gonna do some like cool shit and it feels like fucking like norm clark killed it they're all like building on each other in a really like fun exciting way in this era yeah this is i mean this is when stuff is being created and recreated and mashed up and torn down and reinvented again and like people are like looking back trying to recycle stuff in like they're like we got new technology things are changing we got a new pop how can we use it differently than we did before you know they're always like advancing stuff in the advancements were quick it's crazy to be like because it might sound like i'm like i'm talking about a game from 1974 and i'm like he's designing games in 74 that other people weren't doing until 78 yeah like you sound fucking stupid you're like no because most people like it was taking years for the other competition to catch up and you're like Bally jumped they jumped ahead in line it felt like with Greg I think he was a big part of that and that's not to cut Ted Zale short in like he was still involved at this point in everything but it's like Greg came in with like new fresh energy and he did some cool shit did some really cool solid states too but that's not what we're here to talk about so I'm like yeah I like his stuff Greg games are very interesting to me I'd be interested in any Greg Bally I saw pretty much as any you know any of his ems i think they're all pretty cool everyone i've played that gets us out of williams and bally finally dude let's talk about the kings the big dogs as gotlieb gotlieb had a lot of great designers that only did a few games uh most noteworthy to me were jeff brenner who did atlantis and abracadabra two are my absolute favorite wedge heads it was really funny when i was putting this list together and i was like fuck who did atlantis who did abracadabra and i'm like oh i was like this guy i was like i should know who jeff brenner is and then i go out those are the only two games he did he made like two of the best games of all time i mean he had like a couple other variations of those but he really did like i think his total design credits would maybe three unique playfields and then variations of those playfields and you're like that's a fucking hit rate man that was just killer yeah and then another another small name from gottlieb but that you know was worth mentioning Allen Edwall he came in at the end of the em era and he put out Centigrade 37, an all-time classic. He continued working on great games through the 90s in various roles, design, and stuff, but I just think it's funny that he came out and he's like, Centigrade 37, and you're like, that's your first game? That's nuts. That's some good shit. But this is a crash course. We're not talking, and we're not trying to get into the weeds. We're going to focus on, you know, I limited myself to two names from each manufacturer. It should come as no surprise to any godly listener who these two names are. The first of them is Mr. Wayne Nions. Wayne Nions, I consider, I don't think this is a particularly hot take, but I can only speak for myself. I consider Wayne Nions the undisputed champ of two-inch flipper games. Nobody makes a more fun game with two-inch flippers than Wayne Nions did. He worked from Gottlieb from 1938 before the war, dude. Yeah. That's early. 38 to 1976. And he has over 170 design credits to his name. These EM numbers are always inflated because they made four versions of every game. Yeah, totally. Even if you divide that by four, it's a lot of games. Yeah, dude, I know. Yeah. There's truly too many notable games to list here. So I'm just limiting this to five that I think you and I can speak to about a little bit. The first I want to talk about an example of an early game from Wayne with flippers would be World Beauties, 1959. This is a great little game that was on the floor at Wedgehead for a long time. So locals all probably played this one. It's pre-score reels. Yep. But it feels remarkably like a later, it plays like a later game to me. And a big part of that might be because or might be why. it was kind of recycled in part for uh the 1966 title central park which we also have yeah it's on the floor is that one still on the floor i know yeah yeah so world beauty's 1959 you're kind of collecting targets it's fun carry over progress from ball to ball great game great i really like that it's a very playable wood rail it feels like a proper modern pinball machine and it's wrapped up in this very vintage little package really cool late wood rail another all-time way nines game slick chick 1963 yeah what do you think about slick chick alan yeah one of the best of all time uh very interesting cross hat cross pops in an x shape across the playfield weird psychedelic playboy kind of funny ladies but with like drugged out actual rabbits on the playfield Who's the artist in this era? We're not talking about artists, but we got to talk about it just real quick. Is it Christian Marche? Roy Parker. It's Roy Parker. Yeah, because it's like he kind of does like wholesome. Usually, yeah. It's usually kind of wholesome. And then these ones are like in like Playboy Bunny outfits. It's very funny to me. Yeah, that's another fucking banger of a game. That's just a phenomenal one with a very, very, very cool lower third where the rubber, there's a bit of rubber that sticks out past the tip of the flipper. so if a ball is coming kind of straight down the middle it's in your best interest sometimes to raise the flipper because the exposed bit of rubber can reach farther and help you with the handle it's just such an interesting one to play it really if you're playing like a clean fast copy of slick chick you're like this shit is awesome yeah it's crack phenomenal game after that another one i wanted to highlight majorettes in 1964 marching band themed game as you got in the 60s you know before the before these guys started dropping lsd the themes were a little like okay and uh yeah it's got floating flippers it's got an insane lower third it's got too much floating flippers kind of where they would be on a normal game but then there's like no slings around them they're just there and it's got two lines of pops the one two three four five to collect like in two rows, kind of like the marching sticks, I guess, and a saucer between the flippers where it kicks the ball back into play. It's just absolutely like batshit crazy flipper arrangement, but it's incredibly playable. Like, you really quickly figure out how to bounce it, how to keep the ball in play. When you've got to keep the flippers up, when you're intentionally kind of avoiding the ball, it works so well. Incredibly addicting game. That was the one that when we went out to past times, I remember playing Majorettes and being like, holy shit, this game's awesome. so so good they had a whole row of these wayne games and the guy is unbelievable dude on on on fucking believable the hit rate we talk about a lot of these guys were kind of like throwing shit at the wall seeing what stuck some made very great games they also made very bad games wayne made only good games only good games they're all good i hate saying that because i'm sure yeah i'm sure there'll be one that i don't man dude like you play like just the average game that nobody talks about the average way nice game that nobody thinks about is better than the average anyone else's game from this era like it's not even close you're talking in the 60s dude nothing else compares to a godly in the 60s they're just unbeatable another game from 64 uh some people like this one it's called north star this is my favorite wedge head the owner of wedge head names his bar wedge head his favorite wedge head is north star star it's also a wedge head that You and Rhodes don't own. God, I still want one of these fuckers. Listening to this and they have a North Star and they want it to go to a good home. Hit me up and we'll figure out how to figure out a price and I'll buy one, get it out here for Wedgehead. Yeah, this is... We need a North Star at this point. It's been too long. We've been trying to find one. It's just it's been hard to coordinate any of the ones that pop up. Don't want to ship. We got to find a North Star. There's no goddamn North Stars. We need a North Star. so please if you're listening let us know we'll buy a north star yeah we really want a north star so north star 1964 is pretty good game yeah pretty good incredibly addicting it's got a super fun cluster of pops up top you're collecting the pops as you do in a lot of these wayne two inch games which is just very fun because you're you're playing the pops in a much more intentional way than you do in a lot of other like a normal pop modern pop clusters are a fucking waste of time They're literally a place just to park a ball, slow down the game, kind of make it feel like there's some feedback. It reminds you the game's physical. If you're playing pinball for the first time, they don't serve a function other than slowing the ball down. Pops in these way nines games are the feature. Yeah. And they're the rules and they're fucking awesome and super fun to play. And it's it's just a good time. North Star is a perfect example of you don't really need that much for a game to be just incredible. Wrapped up in a cute maybe, you know, some people might have a problem with the Inuit art. you know the you know native eskimo art there but it's cute i like it yeah and that's an art stenholm package actually art stenholm might have been the guy that did slick chick as well i don't know i didn't check artists for this one because it's a crash course in em designers we're talking about Wayne Neyens we're not talking about like an art uh and a good example of his later work would be 375 which he collaborated on with who we'll be talking about next it's one of his last design credits and it's a great modern i say modern again modern in quotes because it's asymmetrical three inch flippers kind of an italian half italian bottom yeah on that one it's a rad layout really like 300 very very cool game and i just like seeing that's like yeah man he was like open on new shit he wasn't like now most of his games are symmetrical it was the era of symmetrical games ted zale was making asymmetrical games they kind of sucked so i think everyone learned to stay symmetrical back then it's funny how it's just flop now it's like if you did a perfectly symmetrical game like if you're making fire now oh dude you're like well first of all like symmetrical with ramps you're like what is this shit it's because there's no fight it's like it it too much of what makes these games fun has been removed you're not worried about like shooting it's just so such a different feeling that it's like yeah you can't really compare because it is interesting when i got into the hobby every game i saw with a symmetrical play field i was like boring like what a dumb game that looks like shit and then i started playing these ems and i was like oh you're not thinking about that yeah so so good Wayne Neyens absolutely just phenomenal designer the reason that gottlieb you know became what it was which was the industry leader the industry leader the dominating force the fucking watermark the bar to clear no one could touch gottlieb in this era and way nines was a huge huge huge part of that yep so way nines that's the fucking name to know he had a protege you know they always do they always do and wayne's protege was fucking good his protege was Ed Krynski ed took over the reins from wayne in 1973 he only designed for seven years he only has design credits up through 80 but my god he made some good fucking games in seven years i love the three inch wedge heads and the three inch wedge heads i mentioned some other names earlier on that kind of had some random ones but this was ed's ed's running the show yeah in this era he basically designs everything except for like three or four of them yeah which are we already mentioned which are also great yeah they are under ed's tutelage from the bat is like from the rip he's making cool shit 73 his first year designing he makes hot shot which is probably my favorite multiplayer gotlieb it's a pool game where you're collecting the banks of targets on the sides you collect the last eight ball up the middle people listen to their like kind of sounds like pinball pool system one got leave that they had on the floor at wedget for a long time you're like yeah it's because it's basically the same thing that game came out 10 years before that and it was fucking rad you know how like today in today's age like stern will have a game that's popular that they made 5 10 15 years ago and then they'll remake it and then they'll throw it online again and throw it online again that's what fucking Ed Krynski was doing he was putting out games that were so popular and earned so much money that they just kept changing the art and every couple years just throw it back out again and they fucking still ate that shit up like good example of that is the next game i wanted to talk about el dorado in 1975 all-time classic wedgehead it helps that it has one of the sickest fucking cowboy art packages of all time but without that then the our package wasn't what was selling it because they make this game it's a hit this is what in the business we call a shooter's game it has a shit ton of drop targets to aim for eldorado gets a novelty version back in back in the day they would make different versions to comply with different state and territories laws so it gets a novelty version lucky strike as well as an add a ball version gold strike not all of them get this it was just the successful games that they bothered doing multiple versions for so the fact we got three versions already that means this is a hit then it gets a four-player version with a new art package it's called target alpha and then the four-player version gets ran again with a contract from canada dry the soft drink in an absolutely incredible psychedelic art package probably the coolest art package ever done on a licensed game again we're not talking about artists here but that's Gordon Morison during this hero dude that's the greatest the most fucking insane licensed game of all time it's so so sick they've got one at the pinball hall of fame in vegas i remember playing that the very first time i was out there as different locations this is whatever six seven years ago or something and i played it and i was like this is it was the first time i was playing ems pinball hall of fame really fell in love with ems fell in love specifically with canada dry i was like dude it's like fucking like an acid trip canada dry sponsored what is this like this is an insane game looked it up realized there's like 100 units and it's worth tons of money and i was like oh no fortunately you can get that layout in a lot of ways after they made canada dries they've already up to five versions of this layout for anyone counting they said fuck it next year let's run it back as a two-player game with a whole other art package solar city and then a decade later this is 1974 or 1984 at this point gotley runs it one last time now is a solid state game called Eldorado City of Gold. I think people liked this one. Yeah, this is probably the single most iconic EM layout of all time. Dude, it's like, it's the game. It's in all of, like, if you play, like, if you get the pinball collection on fucking Nintendo GameCube, like, it's the one that, like, they put in all of the video games when they started licensing pins and stuff. It's the game, man. It's the game. You're like, it's rad. You get to shoot 100 drop targets. Yeah. it's not what's funny is it's not necessarily my favorite but i love it and it's like also like everybody likes it yeah i've never really seen anybody that's like i don't know fuck that game i hate that game i get it sucks you're like no dude you can shoot 100 drop targets don't you like another one that people really like 1976 is a volley's uh tennis themed game i think it's the only tennis themed game there's no way it's the only one it's definitely the best one i think it's the only one no there's gotta be another one i'm pretty sure it's the only join us in the discord with a tennis game i'm pretty sure i tried to think of another one recently because there was a it's a whole store it has to be another tennis game and we'll love to hear it from you in the discord server volley it's a kind of a straightforward it's a symmetrical layout yep it looks pretty straightforward incredibly addicting incredibly fun like there's three banks of drops you're trying to collect they bank off of each other it's a good energy it's very much to me a momentum game you keep momentum keep the ball moving it stays jiving it feel it starts flowing it works really really well the moment you stop and like cradle and aim for drops you get fucked i like this thing a lot i used to not like it i used to be like it's boring it's too simple it really grew on me and i'm like it's a good one people like that game too another one that i fucking love jack's open 1977 this is another single player wedgehead it's a perfect straight drop bank game in my opinion what i mean by that is it has a set of drops in the middle of the game and they're just flat they're just facing the player exactly it's just one big bank and it's like what can you do with one bank of drops and it's the perfect execution of that it's got a cool rule set where you're collecting poker hands right some kind of hands card hands card game and it's laid out very straightforward on the play field but they're dangerous because they're drops facing straight at you it's a hard game it's a good balance got open inlanes so if you you know it's an italian bottom with the open inlanes kind of like grand prix i love that shit dude all inlanes you should be punished for when you catch a live catch too fast yeah dude it's how games should be it's way more fun that was basically so they were on hipster bullshit way back then dude oh dude people would not like these games ultimate hipster shit right there dude if people were releasing if people were doing that now it would not go over can't imagine but yeah when when gottlieb was drug kicking and screaming into the solid state that's a good description of it right it was mostly ed games that got the dual em and solid state system one treatment my personal favorites from that crossover era because i just want to keep listening you know fucking Ed Krynski everyone should know Ed Krynski way nice Ed Krynski man they the they the guys they're why got leave games are fucking awesome and Ed Krynski's awesome games from this crossover period include sinbad or eye of the tiger close encounters of the third kind which is very underrated in my opinion i've always heard how shitty that game is and then i played a nice coffee and i was like this game's game is fun yeah countdown phenomenal symmetrical play field another one that doesn't look like much until you start playing it great great game other solid states that he made that are phenomenal just worth mentioning real quick pinball pool genie amazing spider-man his final fresh production game was counterforce which is fucking awesome yeah i love that game it's such a good game dude counterforce is so sick another big bank of drops just like how ed does them really cool rule set some people even like his game hulk but not anybody in this house megan certainly does not no megan hates that game what do you think about ed and uh what are his kind of trademarks ed krensky is the king of the drop target absolutely he's known for his drop targets his drop target rules banks of drops clearing banks of drops that's what makes the games addictive because they communicate drop targets communicate to a player hey there's these things i should hit them i hit one they go down what happens if i hit all of them then they're worth more okay cool now i'm addicted to the gameplay that's one thing very underrated thing about drops it's like even like like i remember my dad was at my house this is a while back and i had gotley brock or whatever he was playing and he'd just be like oh yeah i got he's like i got all those little things down he's always like he calls them chiclets which is funny to me he's like yeah i got all the little chiclets down and i'm like yeah cool like that's what you're supposed to do on the game like believe it or not like it's actually intuitive when it's like shit like that it's great it works really well people enjoy it i mean and obviously got leap has the greatest drop targets of all time like their em and early solid state drops always fucking work they always register they feel great they don't brick shots they're they're a little bit annoying to service and replace but like that's kind of all drops from that era but they're just the best there were enough to carry games like you can make a game that's just a bank of drops with some other little switches here and there and the game can be fun as long as the rules are good these were the first games that got me ed's games were the games that got me into ems and ed's games were the games that got me into just older games in general yeah so i would agree because the two inch games can be a tough learning curve when you're yeah like i feel like i look fondly back on my ed krensky days now i'm like i'm firmly a way guy guy see i still like ed krensky games i love them both i like them both but like damn dude i'm just like gimme wayne nyan's two inch flippers that's the shit i want i wish i had a dozen of his games yeah i mean like that's like one designer that it's like if i had to get 10 games from one designer and fill up a lineup be like yeah wayne nyan games you can't go wrong i just love them all they're so fun and they all play different even when they look the same it's just remarkable stuff anyway that's the six designers now we got some discussion questions that i see you've you know you've thought about already oh yeah okay so of the six we talked about who's your favorite if that's not already clear i think it is from that last answer way nyan's is the man that has my heart that dude's games just feel like sorcery to me they just like alex was just saying even though he hasn't even read my response to this question but they feel they sometimes they don't look like much like a lot of ems yeah but just damn it i love nudging balls across a wide center drain to tiny little flippers like it's just like that thing where he'll like spread the flippers way out to the edges and then have like little posts with rubbers all on the center so there might be like six center drains and no outlaying drains on one of his games. Yeah. And you're like, oh my God, how will I ever control this? And you're like, well, the ball's going to roll, and it's not going to go clean down one of those center drain lanes, so you nudge it over to one, and then you bounce it over to the other, then do the other, and then it gets to the flipper, then you whap it back up to the play field, and you're like... It's Roger Sharp, right, that said when you're playing an EM, every piece of rubber is a flipper? Yeah. Every surface is a flipper. Yeah, every surface is a flipper, and you really need to remember that when you're playing a Wayne Neyens game specifically. Yeah. You're controlling that you have the opportunity to control the ball every time it's touching something. And Wayne knew that and designed around that. And people today don't design around that. That's not what the focus is anymore. And it's so much fun and it's so engaging in its pinball, but it's very different than what modern pinball is. And I'm assuming your favorite is Norm. I really do. I'm just lately I'm obsessed with Norm Clark games. I can't say – I don't want to be like, he's the absolute best, but right now I'm like, he's just – I'm captivated by Norm Clark games in a way that nobody else has a hold on me at the moment. I do really love the Gottliebs, and so a little bit of my pick, part of why I like Norm so much is because it feels like an underdog pick because no one really respects Williams and Ballys. No one respects anybody as much as they respect the Gottliebs of this era, and I'm like, dude, what Norm was doing over at Williams was wild shit. yeah it's so addicting like that's the norm's best games are as good as anybody else's but honestly even steve kordex games games honestly feel kind of like wayne's games where you're like you're playing them in a different way whereas like like uh greg kamek and ed krensky they feel more like a modern game which i really like both of their layouts and everything but it's like i really i think i put kind of wayne and um norm and norm are kind of in a different class really like both of them i it's hard for me to pick a favorite i'd say norm just for now for fun just to get some variety here ed krensky is really hard to beat though i really like ed krensky's game yeah so who do you think was the most impactful of the six we discussed okay so i just gotta say like we've talked about him at the beginning of the episode and just so listeners don't scream at us here undeniably it's harry williams who we mentioned at the time yes Yes. But of this episode, six main designers, because Harry was not actively designing during this era design here. We're not talking about because I think Steve Kordak is the biggest influence on pinball of this group. But of the designers, who do you think influenced the most moving forward? I think it's probably Ed Krinsky. Yeah. And I say that because he designed the most games of any pinball designer ever. and he worked at the biggest pinball company, Gottlieb, during the single most popular era of pinball and his use of drop targets defined an era of pinball. I see that. I understand that. I think thinking of who's the most impactful in a way like a lasting impact and I hadn't really thought about this beforehand, but I honestly feel like Greg Kamek, dude, because he's like making in 73, he's making games with lane shots and orbits and stuff that people weren't really doing that yet in those layouts it's like you could take a game you could take a great commit game from 73 or 74 and put solid state rules on it and it would be like a tna level you know it looks like that kind of era not yeah i mean before that though there were there were in-lane games that ed did and yeah that is i mean it's just like ed is ed's shooting at targets though and i feel like the great commit games start feeling like shots and i'm putting that in air quotes the way that like a Steve Ritchie game feels like shot sure that's my argument for it that being said his games weren't man he did sell a lot of games with like like um especially the later games later sold a lot once they got the licensing shit figured out and then i'm thinking mo into his solid state career and shan you're like okay the influence is there but i'm not going to argue that if i can ed karensky was just massively successfully successful and influenced the whole industry so i'm like that's kind of yeah undisputable so can you make any parallels or comparisons between these designers and more modern names that people might know i thought this was a fun one this was a fun question so this is how i put it i think greg kimmick would probably be Brian Eddy because he made some very popular games but sometimes the layouts maybe feel safe or a little samey yeah right but he kind of just knows what's fun yeah and he just sort of delivers fun yeah he delivered what people wanted yeah yeah so i would say comek is Brian Eddy i think steve kordek would be a john borg as his layouts don't immediately feel like only he could have made them they look like there's more than meets the eye i would say to these layouts yeah but they the longevity and hit making speak for themselves yes you know like really long careers in leadership you know and sort of unofficial in john's case but he kind of still gets brought in making games on short timelines and stuff so i would say steve kordek would be a john borg type i think ted zale is a jack danger a guy who was going way outside the fucking box dude like i can see it i just like jack's games a lot more than i liked no so do i so do i i mean i love jack dangerous games but don't you see like of these guys you're like oh yeah you're like this is like the one you look at all the other games in the era and they're you're like yeah this all makes sense and then you see what ted zale's doing you're like what the fuck is that what's going on yeah so that's i think that's a clear jack danger and i think he would like that comparison yeah i like that ed krinsky i think is Keith Elwin the clear number one guy for the number one company yeah he's the big name it's like the big name the guy that earns the money the guy that keeps the lights on the guy the famous guy yeah the hit maker it's only there for seven years what do you think that says for keith see we'll see you know and then the hardest one i think was Wayne Neyens yeah you start getting into the it's like that's too no one in the modern era has the fucking impact like in the same way as wayne it's hard to start comparing like something like that i put george gomez in this spot probably because he does some very interesting stuff but it remains surprisingly very accessible i think he later transitioned out of design to run an empire at the height of pinball power just like george does today i mean obviously so did steve he seems to get wayne seemed to get the business yes and it's like he's delivering games that like people liked yeah in a way that people probably you know if there were if there was the equivalent of pin side at the time they world of problem like ow this looks like wayne's last game yeah you'd be like oh wayne's just fucking biting something off himself you know and you're like yeah and then it's gonna sell like you know wayne's selling like 10 000 units of this shit you know pumping out 20 games a year and you're like yeah i think some of these guys see above the the rabble i think that's a good one i think it's a good comparison i think norm clark would be kind of Steve Ritchie because he He was at times both wildly innovative and influential and at other times would be scolded as recycling some of his layouts. Yeah, I see that. And I think Norm. His games are fast and mean. They feel like a fight. Yeah. Yeah. And then like Norm basically raised George Christian and Steve essentially raised all modern designers indirectly. That's true. You know what I mean? Like everyone bites Steve. It's interesting now how it's like all these guys had clear. And that's why I kind of keep bringing this up is that they all kind of had like genuine like protégés and like the in like a literal sense of the word. It's like, no, there's a guy 10 years younger than me that I'm training to take over my job so I can move on up in the company. And then we stop that. Stop doing that. Yeah. And that's kind of a bummer because you see how these guys were leaping off of each other and they were fucking. And then they got out of the way. Right. And then they got out of the way and then they were like, I'm just going to help the young guys who are going to bring in fresh takes. Yeah. And they're going to make kick ass games. And we're all everybody wins when one person wins the company. Everybody wins. And it's like they saw that. And you do. You lost that when it went to like the Shark Tank mentality of Bally Williams. Yeah. Of like designer V designer. It's like, oh, that's good. We got really good games out of as a result of that competition. I think we're seeing a little bit more of that come back at Stern with like John Bork kind of moving into more of like a mentoring role and helping polish games and that kind of stuff. Hopefully we're seeing some of that. But yeah, it is interesting, I thought. So do you think things would be wildly different if these guys had landed at different companies? Is it possible to separate them from their manufacturers? For me, it's really hard to imagine. Like Ed Kerensky working at Bally probably would have been pretty much the same. They kind of had the shit. He didn't have the drops, though. The Bally drops are good. the later they get good they get good eventually i'm thinking of like old chicago drops are good yeah not as good as gottlieb but like Ed Krynski i think could have killed it there i don't think so i think it's like i associate all of them with their respective companies so much like you said at the top of the episode i think it really is hard to imagine them swapping because i think this is the ultimate era of designer auteurs yes rule sets had to be physically handled with relays so i think like ted zale working at gottlieb would have just meant that like we would have gotten zipper flipper games that got even said you know what i mean like like i think those guys like made those games yeah i agree with you it's like they were all using some of them when you get into the later into the 70s those guys were kind of playing with the tools they were given a little bit it's like like ed was like we got really good drops i'm putting fucking drops in everything but the 60s guys especially i think you could have swapped them anywhere and they would have just made the other company into what they had what they ended up doing yeah absolutely that's how i feel too yeah so it's kind of that's why that's why like you said it's like well that's why we don't usually say their names we talk about the companies but really they are the company exactly they're what made the company what it is so it's like yeah it's it's really hard to separate them though okay and the last question i had was who do you wish we had gotten more games from who would you like to see working in a more modern era than they did so as insane as this sounds since he literally made the most amount of games of anybody i wish Ed Krynski would have kept cooking longer into the early solid state era because the man was money and i would have loved to have seen him continue further maybe even figure out how to use a spinner correctly uh yeah dude give that guy a spinner what is he gonna do look what you did with drop targets we give him a spinner man he would have fucking you know we would metal spinners imagine him with metal spinners a couple years later he doesn't have to use that plastic garbage there's some of these guys that i'm like i would love to see like if you could bring back you know i can't remember i should have put down it which of which of these designers have passed if any of them were surviving but it's like if we could bring back the ghost of wayne nyan's with modern technology and be like, can you design a pinball machine? Yeah. Like, I'd be really curious to see, like, if he'd be like, this is so far from what I, like, I'd be curious to see if you'd build something that looked like one of his games, or if you'd be like, oh, I can, like, do ramps with the stuff. You know, I'd really like to see these designers, any of their approaches, any of those guys from the 60s, I guess. I mean, I would have loved more Norm Center pops. I would have loved more, you know, Center drain nudge games from Wayne. I think Norm is the one I wish we saw more from, and I think that's kind of a nuanced answer because we did see more Norm through George. And I think George Christian made the best pinball machines really of all time. That's a hard one for me. I like all eras of games, so it's really hard for me to ever nail down the best ever. Maybe I'll have to do an episode on it. But the best game ever is a hard thing to say, but I think George is arguably up there. And I really think that was Norm's influence heavily on him. For sure. That's it. That's the end of this episode. EMs are fucking magical. You should go out and play some more of them. Take some time. Find them near you. Go out and play some EMs. Learn some names of these guys. You remember all six of them, Alan? Yeah, dude. You got them? List them off. List them off. Steve Kordick and Norm Clark at Williams. Then at Bally, you have Ted Zale and Greg Kamek. and at Gottlieb you have Wayne Niance and Ed Krinsky yes I'm gonna ask everybody I know that listens to this podcast I'm gonna ask you next time I see you be like hey who are the two the six biggest pinball designers from the EM era if you don't get it right you know that's it you got to go buy me a beer that's a fun game expect the quiz I'm gonna get drunk I assume because you guys aren't gonna remember these but you should you should know these six names you should keep some respect on them we're not going to bug you too much if you don't it's hard to keep all this shit straight i just like talking about it and it's more fun talking about stuff when people know what we're talking about yeah the em era is great go out and play these games because one of these days along your pinball journey one of these games is going to speak to you and then you're going to feel like a fucking crazy person because you're going to be looking at your other pinball friends and your league and everyone's grinding the new code updates on a modern game and you're gonna be over there laughing like a fucking hyena playing one of these old games or something like and you're gonna be like what the hell do i just love these and nothing else the best shit ever when you develop an appreciation for ems and you realize there are literally hundreds thousands of great games do you know how we're all sitting here waiting for the next turn to come out waiting for the next whatever to come out and how exciting that is there is a wealth of old games that are phenomenal once you develop the appreciation for them and it's just take the time get you know appreciate them go play them go play pinball go out play some pinball and until next time good luck don't suck The night is young and full of possibilities. Well, come on and let yourself be free. My love for you So long I've been saving Tonight was made for me and you You can ring my bell Ring my bell Ring my bell You can ring my bell Ring my bell Ring my bell, ring-a-ling-a-ling. Ring my bell, ring my bell, ring my bell, ring my bell. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: e1dd1adc-9b6d-40ca-abd2-0dc8e776ca09*