# Episode 116 - Turtle Power **Source:** Eclectic Gamers Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2020-06-01 **Duration:** 107m 23s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://soundcloud.com/user-465086826/episode-116 --- ## Analysis The Eclectic Gamers Podcast discusses Stern's official reveal of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pinball (designed by John Borg with rules by Dwight Sullivan), highlighting its three-flipper Pro model, cooperative gameplay modes, magnetic pizza disc, and Zombie Yeti artwork. The episode also covers Multimorphic's head-to-head online gameplay announcement for Cosmic Kart Racing and Jersey Jack Pinball's cryptic teaser about an upcoming 'innovation.' Hosts express mixed reactions to TMNT's design choices and note Stern's aggressive takedown of leaked images before the official announcement. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] Multimorphic has announced head-to-head pinball gameplay over the Internet, with Cosmic Kart Racing as the first P3 game to have the feature enabled — _Dennis explicitly states this was officially announced; they organized a play session on May 23rd that reportedly went smoothly with positive feedback from participants_ - [HIGH] Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pinball is a John Borg design with Dwight Sullivan on rules development, Zombie Yeti on art, and Jerry Thompson on sound — _Dennis provides detailed crew credits directly from official sources; this is a confirmed announcement_ - [HIGH] TMNT Premium/LE has eight-ball multiball while Pro is limited to six balls — _Dennis clearly states the specifications for each model tier_ - [HIGH] TMNT Pro has three flippers (unusual after a stretch of two-flipper Pro models post-Star Trek) — _Dennis notes this as a positive development, mentioning the third flipper is positioned on the left like Tron_ - [HIGH] Stern sent legal takedown notices to arcade operators and content creators for leaked TMNT images before the official announcement — _Dennis reads a message from Jared Guinez to Naps Arcade threatening legal action; also mentions Jeff Patterson received a takedown request from Stern for This Week in Pinball_ - [HIGH] TMNT uses 1987 theme music and features 17 characters with voiced dialogue, including Mark Silk providing voice work for approximately 5-6 characters including Splinter — _Dennis provides specific technical details about the game's audio_ - [HIGH] Jersey Jack Pinball teased an upcoming 'innovation' with the message 'you asked for innovation, we answered, everything is about to change' — _Dennis reports they dropped a teaser trailer on Facebook on the same day TMNT was announced_ - [HIGH] Preliminary TMNT sales have been 'extremely strong, stronger than Jurassic Park' according to Zach Minney of Flippin' Out Pinball — _Dennis says he had a conversation with Zach Minney today who relayed this sales data_ ### Notable Quotes > "you asked for innovation, we answered, everything is about to change" > — **Jersey Jack Pinball (teaser announcement)**, ~22:45 > _Cryptic teaser about unannounced innovation; hosts speculate it could be online connectivity or code updates but remain uncertain_ > "That could have gotten some more attention if it was live streamed. Missed opportunity there." > — **Dennis**, ~7:15 > _Criticism of Multimorphic's decision not to stream the head-to-head gameplay launch event_ > "I don't like the unified, I call them the Munster stand-up targets, the Lair and April. Those are all the single units, so you don't have to actually hit specific letters. I don't care for that. I think it's like baby's first stand-up target." > — **Dennis**, ~37:15 > _Critique of TMNT's simplified target design; expresses preference for individualized stand-ups_ > "I don't like the diverter being on the action button. To me, that's like the MagnaSave on Sword of Rage. I just think it's not the right – I think it should be near the flipper." > — **Tony**, ~42:30 > _Design critique of action button placement for manual diverter control on Premium/LE models_ > "I know on TNA, I really enjoy the co-op mode a lot. I think for a lot of people, that might actually be more than anything he did with the sound, the lights, or the layout. That might have been Scott's biggest contribution to pinball, is putting that mode into a traditional pinball game." > — **Dennis**, ~48:45 > _Highlights co-op mode as a major innovation for inclusivity and accessibility in pinball_ > "I can understand why they've got an entire release plan, they've got a release schedule... but at the same time, it seems kind of a little harsh, considering the fact that it was the best-kept secret in pinball." > — **Tony**, ~60:00 > _Balanced perspective on Stern's aggressive takedown approach vs. the reality that images leaked extensively_ > "it's not a look that I like seeing" > — **Dennis**, ~56:30 > _Expresses disapproval of Stern's heavy-handed legal takedown tactics before the official announcement_ > "Preliminary sales have been extremely strong, stronger than he had for Jurassic Park." > — **Dennis (reporting Zach Minney)**, ~54:15 > _Strong early sales indicator for TMNT, though hosts question whether this reflects nostalgia, COVID demand bump, or genuine interest_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | Stern Pinball | company | Manufacturer that announced and revealed Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pinball; sent legal takedown notices for leaked images | | Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pinball | game | Newly announced Stern pinball machine based on 1987 cartoon theme; designed by John Borg with three-flipper Pro model and cooperative gameplay modes | | John Borg | person | Pinball designer credited with TMNT layout; known for flow-heavy, non-bash-away game designs | | Dwight Sullivan | person | Stern Pinball game designer; lead on rules development for TMNT; appeared on Jack Danger's stream explaining game rules | | Zombie Yeti | person | Artist credited with TMNT art; praised for quality of artwork and custom animations | | Jerry Thompson | person | Sound lead for TMNT Pinball | | Elliot Eisman | person | Lead mechanical engineer for TMNT Pinball | | Joshua Clay | person | Motion graphics designer for TMNT Pinball | | Chuck Ernst | person | Motion graphics designer for TMNT Pinball | | Mark Silk | person | Voice actor for TMNT Pinball; described as a big pinball fan; provided voices for approximately 5-6 characters including Splinter | | Multimorphic | company | Pinball manufacturer that announced head-to-head online gameplay capability for P3 platform, with Cosmic Kart Racing as first game to feature it | | Cosmic Kart Racing | game | Multimorphic P3 game; first title to enable head-to-head online gameplay; had successful play session on May 23rd | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Manufacturer that teased upcoming unannounced innovation with cryptic message 'everything is about to change' | | Zach Sharpe | person | Stern Pinball representative who sent legal takedown notice about leaked TMNT images; referenced in message from Jared Guinez | | Jared Guinez | person | Sent legal takedown message to Naps Arcade on behalf of Stern Pinball regarding leaked TMNT images | | Jason Knapp | person | Manager of Naps Arcade; received legal takedown message; has appeared on Eclectic Gamers Podcast previously | | Jeff Patterson | person | Content creator for This Week in Pinball; voluntarily removed leaked TMNT content after Stern contact | | Zach Minney | person | Owner of Flippin' Out Pinball; reported strong preliminary sales for TMNT exceeding Jurassic Park numbers | | Jack Danger | person | Streamed TMNT gameplay twice (Premium model on reveal day, Pro model on Friday); discussed game rules with Dwight Sullivan | | Roanoke Pinball Museum | organization | Interactive museum in Roanoke, Virginia dedicated to science and history of pinball; houses over 65 machines from 1932-2018; episode sponsor | | This Week in Pinball | organization | Pinball news and media publication; featured deep dive article on TMNT announcement with high-quality photos | | Pinside | organization | Pinball community forum where leaked TMNT images appeared before official announcement | | Dennis | person | Co-host of Eclectic Gamers Podcast; provides detailed analysis of TMNT design and mechanics | | Tony | person | Co-host of Eclectic Gamers Podcast; offers perspectives on game design and pricing concerns | ### Topics - **Primary:** Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pinball announcement and design analysis, Cooperative gameplay modes and their role in pinball accessibility, Multimorphic P3 head-to-head online gameplay feature, Jersey Jack Pinball's cryptic innovation teaser, Stern's legal takedown of leaked TMNT images before announcement - **Secondary:** TMNT game design specifics (flippers, multiball, diverter mechanics), Preliminary TMNT sales strength and market impact, Pinball game design philosophy and best practices ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.55) — Hosts are enthusiastic about TMNT's announcement, cooperative gameplay, and strong sales, with praise for Zombie Yeti's artwork and John Borg's design. However, sentiment is tempered by specific design critiques (unified stand-up targets, action button placement for diverter), concerns about JJP's vague teaser, and disapproval of Stern's aggressive legal takedown approach. Overall positive toward the game and Multimorphic's online feature, but with reservations about certain design choices and corporate communication tactics. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Stern deployed aggressive legal takedown notices for leaked TMNT images before official announcement, raising questions about public relations approach (confidence: high) — Dennis reads legal message from Jared Guinez to Naps Arcade threatening legal action; reports Jeff Patterson voluntarily removed content after Stern contact; Tony describes this as 'not a look that I like seeing' - **[community_signal]** Multimorphic misses opportunity to live-stream head-to-head gameplay launch event despite positive reception from participants (confidence: medium) — Dennis explicitly states 'Missed opportunity there' regarding May 23rd play session; notes lack of live stream prevented broader community attention despite reports of smooth execution - **[design_philosophy]** Manual diverter placement on TMNT Premium/LE's action button criticized as poor ergonomic choice; hosts prefer flipper-adjacent placement like MagnaSave on Black Knight (confidence: medium) — Tony expresses strong preference for flipper-near placement; compares negatively to Sword of Rage MagnaSave implementation; relates to broader action button usage confusion across Stern games - **[design_philosophy]** Unified stand-up targets (referred to as 'Munster stand-ups') on TMNT Pro receive criticism as oversimplified compared to individualized letter-specific targets (confidence: medium) — Dennis specifically criticizes this feature, calling it 'baby's first stand-up target'; Tony agrees with observation; presented as design philosophy concern rather than mechanical issue - **[design_philosophy]** TMNT represents shift toward cooperative and team-based gameplay modes as standard feature, continuing trend started by TNA (confidence: high) — Dennis emphasizes co-op mode availability; notes Spooky has maintained this as standard; praises it as accessibility feature that attracts non-competitive players - **[licensing_signal]** TMNT design uses 1987 cartoon aesthetic rather than Michael Bay film version or other adaptations, suggesting deliberate IP licensing and creative direction choices (confidence: high) — Dennis discusses strategic decision to use cartoon style for nostalgia appeal and broader audience reach; explicitly notes movie version 'would have been the wrong decision' - **[market_signal]** TMNT shows preliminary sales 'extremely strong, stronger than Jurassic Park' suggesting strong home collector demand for new releases post-COVID (confidence: medium) — Dennis reports conversation with Zach Minney of Flippin' Out Pinball; hosts question whether this reflects nostalgia, COVID demand bump, or sustained interest - **[community_signal]** Jack Danger streams TMNT gameplay with Dwight Sullivan providing rules walkthrough, demonstrating Stern's approach to community engagement and transparency for new release (confidence: high) — Dennis notes Jack Danger streamed twice (Premium and Pro models); watched rules discussion with Dwight Sullivan; compares favorably to streaming approach on other games - **[announcement]** Stern officially reveals Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pinball with detailed specifications across Pro/Premium/LE tiers (confidence: high) — Dennis provides complete crew credits, game specifications, and feature breakdown from official announcement and photos on Stern website and This Week in Pinball - **[product_strategy]** TMNT Pro model includes three flippers (unusual feature) positioning it as more feature-rich than recent Pro models, with manual diverter control exclusive to Premium/LE (confidence: high) — Dennis notes this breaks from post-Star Trek trend of two-flipper Pro models; credits John Borg design; compares flipper placement to Tron - **[rumor_hype]** Jersey Jack Pinball teased major unannounced innovation with cryptic messaging; hosts speculate on online connectivity, code updates, or hardware changes but express genuine uncertainty (confidence: medium) — Dennis reports teaser trailer with 'you asked for innovation, we answered, everything is about to change' message; notes someone told him online connectivity guess was wrong; hosts unable to identify actual innovation - **[technology_signal]** Multimorphic successfully implements head-to-head online gameplay for P3 platform, enabling remote multiplayer pinball (confidence: high) — Officially announced with successful May 23rd play session; Dennis notes this fulfills promise made with Cosmic Kart Racing --- ## Transcript Alvin Jones here, calling in to tell you that this episode of the Eclectic Gamers Podcast is brought to you by the Roanoke Pinball Museum in Roanoke, Virginia. The Roanoke Pinball Museum is an interactive museum dedicated to the science and history of pinball. Their mission is to cultivate curiosity in science, art, and history through pinball while preserving and honoring its role in American culture. The museum is open every day except Monday and houses over 65 machines with models ranging from 1932 to 2018. Chain! Rowan Oak Pinball Museum! It's not a turd! Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, May 31st. It is episode 116. I am Tony. I am Dennis And the pandemic's over, Tony That's what Baby Yoda told me Apparently, that's Yeah Everything's done The new serious Important stuff have come up So everything's gone, and we're all okay Now we worry about other stuff New News Day Well, and my new worry has been The leak in my ceiling Oh, you've got a ceiling leak? Drip, drop, yeah Yep. I was hoping to get it fixed on Friday or Saturday, but they didn't get out here to do it yet. So I got a new bucket. It's actually, it really threw me for a loop because the leaks in the garage, which is, you've been to my house. The garage is basically underneath my bedroom and the hallway, the hall back room. It's like that whole sort of stretch. I don't know if the back bedrooms are over it or not. So you think, okay, a roof leak. well, the roof is up on the top of the house, and the garage is at the bottom of the house, so I should see a leak in one of the ceilings, and I didn't. I would have figured it would have been a leak out of some pipes then. And so that's what I thought. And I already had a hole cut in the ceiling in an area where the leak was, because that's the hall bathroom that my housemate uses, and there was a problem with the drain. I had the tub replaced last year, and the drain wasn't completely sealed right, So eventually it was actually dripping through the ceiling. So I had a plumber come out and they cut off. Ultimately, we didn't need to cut the hole, apparently, because he just went in from the tub and just like re-cocked it and sealed it. And he's like, it was like a 15-minute job. And that solved that problem. But I still have that area exposed so I can see up in there. So, but the thing is, I turned on all the upstairs water. I poured water down all the drains. Couldn't get a drip. Couldn't get a single drip of water. and I was only noticing the garage floor wet in the rain. So there was a little crack in the floor. So then I thought, well, maybe the water's coming up from the ground because that happens in my laundry room. If there's sustained water for a long period of time, it will start to seep through some cracks and just goes down the drain. And it's an unfinished laundry room area, so it's not a big deal. I just make sure you just can't have a carpet in that area. You just got to let it drain. So finally, I had a contractor come out, took a look, and he's like, I think it's a pipe. And I'm like, I've tested every pipe. I've dumped water down every drain. We're talking gallons of water at once. I can't get it to replicate. I only see it in the rain. So I don't think it's a pipe, but we can test it more if you think I should do even longer tests. I mean, I left like all the showers on for five minutes. It was, you know, I did everything I could think. And then we went outside and he looked up and he goes, oh, okay. So over that spot was a plumbing vent for that hall bathroom, all the upstairs bathrooms. Right. You have a little pipe that comes up. And thanks to the hole in the ceiling, I could see. He thought, okay, that's probably leaking because that's pretty common then. And then it must just be going straight down. And so when we had the heavy rain this last week on Thursday, I actually was able to go and look. And, yes, that PVC pipe that goes straight up there, the water's running down it, gets to the elbow turn, which is in the garage, and then it was dripping on the light fixture and then running down the light bulb and dripping on the floor. So it wasn't even coming out the hole. It's just near enough that I thought it was because it was flashing everywhere. Right. So I turned off the power to the light switch and just put a bucket under it for the time being. It only shows up if there's enough rain because it's not a very big leak. But there's some water spots and rust on the screw on that light fixture. So I might have had that leak for a while. That might be one of those things where you can just go up and seal everything on the roof real good. Well, you know, my guess is it's the flashing around it. Right. But given that it's not severe, I haven't gone up there myself to patch it, because in light rains it doesn't go down, it doesn't drip far enough to get off the pipe, so you don't even see it. And I'll go ahead and have him take a look at the roof, because I've owned this house now for like 17 years or so, and I don't know when that roof was replaced, but probably coming up on end of life because I'm guessing it's a 25-year roof. Yeah. Because it looks like it's the cheap asphalt shingles, like the cheapest ones. I'm sure they cheaped out when they replaced it. It's probably their original roof from when it was built. Oh, the 80s? I don't know if it'll look this good. When he looked at it from the outside, he thought he could see where a tile was turned up at the vent, the plumbing vent. Right. I think I even see the spot. It's like, okay. And he goes, the rest of your shingles look okay, but I'll take a look when I'm up there. Roof looks like it's got a few waves in it. The wavy roofs are usually with new roofs. Anyway, let's see. So what's been going on with you? I finished XCOM Chimera Squad. And it's basically XCOM Chimera Squad Act 1. that's what it is because there's lots of it's a good interesting story but they set up this big bad guy and you don't learn anything about them other than the fact that they exist aww and then the TV's over yeah so there will probably be another part coming provided it sells well enough so sweet but it was enjoyable it was very enjoyable Other than that, I spent a lot of time working in the yard, like last weekend and going into the holiday. Plenty of chainsaw time and playing with my new favorite yard work tool, which is a bell hook, because they do everything really well that they're designed for. other than that work I don't have the huge drama of stuff leaking everywhere or new roof needs or anything like that so well that's probably good I don't like dealing with anything but that's what happens sometimes that's the bad part about having the house but it's paid off I was going to say there's good parts about having a house especially a paid off house yeah I know it's been a lot easier ever since not having that monthly bill for the mortgage, everything got a lot easier after that. I got sick. I was like, whoa, I really dumped a lot of money into that. And I'm free. I'm like, I'm free. I get the property tax bill, and then I just do the math. I'm like, no, no, I'm still free. It's not so high. I can plan for that. Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and let's go. We have, holy crap, we got news. We have actual pinball-related news. Yeah. Things have been busy. One of the first things, this was a couple weeks old, but I thought it would make sense for us to start with, is Multimorphic, which has at last announced their head-to-head pinball gameplay. This is head-to-head play over the Internet. Now, we knew this was coming because of Cosmic Heart Racing, because that was the promise that was given, and the promise has been delivered. So I do have a link to Multimorphic's announcement about this in the show notes for anyone who wants to go and read it. apparently Cosmic Kart Racing is just the first P3 game to have the feature enabled, but they didn't go into a lot of detail at this time in terms of anything, like they can go back and add online features to older games, but it did sound very much that Jerry intends to not shoehorn anything that doesn't make a lot of sense in. So, obviously new games can be developed all the time for the system, so other people will be able to take advantage of this because it's not just first-party titles that come out for the Multimorphic platform. Everyone who has the Cosmic Heart Racing kit has free access. It's not like paid DLC to get this. So they can use it. They did organize a play session on the 23rd of May. I don't think it was live streamed. Missed opportunity there. That would have been an excellent opportunity. I think they found a lot of good positive attention with Heist, but this could have gotten some more attention on just the actualization of what Cosmic Kart Racing was offering. That being said, I did read multiple reports from people who participated in the play session, who have the game already, and it sounds like it went really smooth. Nice. So I think it was a good launch for them, and I think people who own Cosmic Kart Racing are pretty happy about it. Yeah, that's a really good option that the P3 has. Yeah, because how many people are going to have more than one P3 in their home To be able to do local LAN play on a game I just Who's got that kind of money Who's got that kind of money It's pinball People got pinball money everywhere They're money They're big dollars I bought two $10,000 machines Let's go That's right, let's go boys Well, speaking of going Apparently, Jersey Jack Pinball, not to be left behind has teased an upcoming innovation announcement, Tony. Really? Yes. They had a teaser trailer that they dropped on Facebook. I believe on the very day, and kudos to them, this was smart, that Turtles was announced. Ooh. Good PR move. Hey, hey, hey. Don't you forget. Stern's not the only one out there, guys. So, I have a link to the trailer in the show notes. However, just reading it, I could do very quickly. Because the words were just you asked for innovation, We answered, everything is about to change. So, Tony. Talk on. Yeah, no, and it had, like, that epic, it wasn't quite Inception music, but it had pretty epic music. So, Tony, so what do you think, what is this? What everything is changing? What could they mean? They're going to make affordable machines. That laugh. Oh, that's mean. Oh, man. I should edit that out, but I won't. Well, because people come to us for the truth. Yeah, that was not my thought, but I like where your head's at, because I do wish that they were more in my price range. My initial thought was online connectivity, probably to manifest initially in the ability to download code updates. That, I think, is a very reasonable guess. I think it would make a lot of sense. And I thought so, too. But then I had someone tell me. Now, this wasn't a Jersey Jack Pearson, so I don't know where they were getting the information from, if they got it direct from Jersey Jack or if they're speculating or they think they heard it somewhere. So I don't know if it's true or not. So I'm reporting this as a rumor. But someone had told me that's not it, that I am wrong. Okay. You are wrong. So that made me try and think of another innovation, and I couldn't come up with it. Like, I don't know. So, with the whole everything about to change is what makes it so... I mean, I could get ridiculous and say they're going to change the size of the pinball. I mean, that would be a pretty big change. Right, but that's just ridiculous. That would have the same strength like the 40s. Yeah, exactly, though. It's ridiculous. That's just dumb. That's just dumb. That's just dumb. I'm just saying. I'm just saying that's dumb. That's just dumb. Tony. 2020 to live by. I don't know. Anything else popping your head? Honestly, when I first saw this and I was trying to think of what it could be, other than something like the connectivity and the ability for it to have online leaderboards, something like that, no, nothing jumps out But maybe because... I mean, maybe something hardware-wise, like 5.1 surround in a pin. How do you do surround in a pin? Exactly. And it's like, why would you? Here's your pin, and here's two extra speakers. For the longest time, no one even saw the point in doing stereo because you were so close to the speakers. It just came out like mono anyway. Right. An OLED for the screen. That's overkill, right? There's no point. Is that everything is about to change? Maybe. It's a horizontal machine instead of a vertical machine. Oh, my God, that'd be so horrible. Yeah, I think we ought to go back to your quote for that one. Come on. Dumb. I don't know. I have to say, I'm genuinely interested to see. They got me curious. They definitely played it right to get me curious because I'm interested to see what is everything is about to change. They're going back to B&B. Alphanumeric. Screw it. They're going alphanumeric. They're going to put out an EM. That's what it is. They're going to put out an EM. A modern EM. There we go. You heard it here first. You did. You wished you hadn't, but you did. Okay, well, we will have to wait and see. Now on to what has been the big news of the last week in particular, which is Stern Pinball has finally revealed their next pinball machine, and that is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Pinball. Best kept secret in pinball. It is. We love our secrets, especially when they've kept well. So I have a link in the show notes to the This Week in Pinball deep dive article. Stern has a lot of good photos on their website. I actually prefer how Jeff lays out the photos on This Week in Pinball. I do like how the layout pinballs. I'm just on his site more, but I prefer the way he does it. So people are like, why didn't you link to the Stern site? Because I think the Twip site's better about it, so deal with it. But that's just the way it is. Regardless, go to either place for high-quality photos. A quick summary on the game. It is a John Borg design for the layout. Dwight Sullivan is the lead on the game rules development. Art was done by Zombie Yeti. Sound lead was Jerry Thompson. And Elliot Elliot Eismin was the lead mechanical engineer. And the motion graphics were handled by Joshua Joshua Clay and Chuck Ernst. So I guess a quick summary about the game for those that aren't looking at it right now. All three models have three flippers and pop bumpers. It uses the 1987 theme music. It's got 17 different characters that have speech provided for them, including Marc Silk as voice, I think something on the order of like five or six of those characters, including Splinter. And it has the pizza spinning disc, which people might remember from the Daddy's version, but this one is magnetic, all X-Men. The premium in LE has eight balls in it, which you can have an eight ball multiball. The pro is limited to six balls. It has the turtle's van. I believe the van is represented on both games, but on the Premium LE version, the van actually can lock up to four balls. And there's a glider that kind of sits between the two return ramp lanes. On the Premium LE, that glider is a manually controlled diverter, kind of like Shadow, that was controlled with the action button in this. There's a metal piece on the Pro. It is not a diverter. It just stops the balls in some capacity on the Pro and is not user-controlled. Also on the Premium LE, the pizza disc, it can spin clockwise and counterclockwise. It only spins one way on the Pro. And the Premium LE edition has a crane toy, which kind of resides in the upper right, in the pop bumper section. So, gameplay-wise, Deadflip, Jack Danger with Deadflip, streamed twice the last week. on the reveal day he streamed the premium I watched about 30 minutes of that and then on Friday he streamed the pro, I went to that, I went to it I wasn't even there for 5 minutes I don't think I saw gameplay while I was on the channel so I left, so I only have really watched any time on the premium though I did watch the part where Dwight Sullivan was walking through the rules with Jack one of the big takeaways that I remember being stressed in this is Stern now has with this game launched a co-op mode option There's also team play. There are other modes as well, like there's three versus one. So, you know, if we have to play the great Tony, I can team up with my buddies. Yeah, that's exactly how you're doing it. That's how I'm doing it. And you caught part of the first stream as well, I believe, towards the end. Yeah, I caught the end just a ball or two being played, and that's it. And discussion. Well, discussion is what we are going to have now. I've included a photo for us, but people can go over to This Week in Pinball to get some really good high-quality images of it. I don't have a lot that I would criticize about the initial look of the game. From what I saw, it seemed fairly hard. It's a pretty flowy game, which is what I usually associate with John Borg. What's different is most of his games as of late have been pretty bash-away heavy, and this is not. Yeah, I mean, is there really a real bass toy on here at all? No, no. I mean, you've got the turtle van for a ball lock thing, but it's not, yeah. It seems more like it's about the pizza disc and stuff is the highlight. So that's a change up. I don't like the unified, I call them the Munster stand-up targets, the Lair and April. Oh, yeah. So those are all the single units, so you don't have to actually hit specific letters. I don't care for that. I think it's like baby's first stand-up target. Yeah, I can see that. So I'd critique that. I would have rather seen individual. I understand not using drops, but I'd rather have seen individualized stand-ups. I do like that, much like on Jurassic Park, we've got a more than two-flipper game on a pro model. It seemed like we went through a huge stretch there after Star Trek where pro models were only two flippers. So I'm glad to start seeing that because that means we get to deviate from the fan layout. And he put the flipper on the left, the third flipper. So it kind of reminds me of Tron in that regard, which is a Borg design. And I've heard that comment a couple other times as well. Yeah. I don't know if the shot is as tight or not. There are a couple. There's an inner orbit there that that flipper is designed to access as well as a ramp. So I think that's pretty interesting. Zombie Yeti did a great job on the art. I don't think that surprises anyone. I like the look of the animations that I saw on the stream. It looked like they didn't really run with classic cartoon clips. They did just the custom animation work, and I thought the turtles looked pretty good. Yeah. No, it's definitely acceptable. I have no real complaints about the tiny bits I saw. That's the thing, is until I actually get a serious time looking at it. but from what I saw, I don't have any real complaints about any of that. They went with experienced voice talent, and it sounded good. I mean, Marc Silk's a big pinball fan, and I think he does good voice work. It's nice to finally see him in a pinball machine. I don't know. I think this might be his first. I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know. We could ask, but we're recording, so we won't. That's pretty much it. The rules seem very well fleshed out. Not too surprising, given how long the game's release has been delayed because of COVID. I don't know. It did have a use the button to eat the action button to eat pizza. It's like the TIE Fighter hurry up in Star Wars is what it reminded me of when I saw it. I mean, it's fine. I thought it was a use for it. I don't know if the button has any other purpose on the pro models because there's no diverter to control. So that might just be the limit. Right. It might just be that or one of those other little things. I don't like the diverter being on the action button. To me, that's like the MagnaSave on Sword of Rage. I just think it's not the right – I think it should be near the flipper. I've never been a fan of the action button there on the apron. It is not something that I enjoy, especially in Sword of Rage. but we'll see how it works here. But I don't like to take my hands away from the flipper that much. I like it, just not for things that to me make sense for, like, Sharky Shootout had the post saves near the flipper. Right. And the magna save on Black Knight is on the right-hand side, so to me it does not work to have it in the middle, especially as quick as you have to respond. I have been okay with the action button for things like shooting the photon torpedoes in Star Trek, the walker bombs in Walking Dead. For me, you know, it's high-fiver, hurry up. I get that and where you're making that choice, am I going to go and try and do this thing, and the thing needs to put me at risk of draining if I'm going to do it. I get that, and I like that the light's right there because you do know when your thing's ready. It's much better than the old, like, paying attention to an insert to know your smart missile was ready on Daddy's Jurassic Park, for example. Right. So in that regard, there's some things about the action button I like, but I don't like it for things that seem to be more appropriate for being placed near the flippers. And being able to manually control the diverter, which I'm assuming you can do whenever you want, to me that's something that should be by the flippers. That is my thought. And have the screen tell you that it's there in the intro crawl when you're not playing the game. When people sit down for the first time to play a game, the first thing they do is to reach out and touch and make sure there's more than just the two flipper buttons? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the reason why, again, to go back to Black Knight sort of rage, the logic of having the MagnaSave on the action button was so you'd know where it was and you'd know when it was ready. The funny thing is, though, is if you've played any other Sterns, your normal thing if you're me is, oh, look, action button hit it. And, of course, then you just waste your Magnesave on Black Knight. Because on every other game, it's like it does stuff to, like, monsters. For example, the game that came out for Black Knight is, like, everyone, all the competitive people tell me, whenever that thing's glowing blue, you need to smack it and get your, like, lightning jackpot or whatever. So it's like you hit it all the time. Or you could use your photon torpedoes all the time if you want to on Star Trek. And then on Black Knight, it's like, oh, there goes your Magnesave. Good job using it while you were in the plunger lane. I definitely did that a couple of times. I did it even after I had experience on the game because I'd just go to it and I'd forget and I'd see the light and I'd go, light, bam! Oh wait, that's not the boom button from Deadpool? Aw. It's not boom, it's more like, wah, wah, wah. You should make that sound. Now, I have to say, I'm really interested in the cooperation mode and the team play and all that Because I know on TNA, I really enjoy the co-op mode a lot. I think for a lot of people, that might actually be more than anything he did with the sound, the lights, or the layout. That might have been Scott's biggest contribution to pinball, is putting that mode into a traditional pinball game. And Multimorphic has co-op capabilities as well. I'm less familiar with them because I don't have access to a P3. So, while obviously this is not new that Stern has done this, it's welcome because I think it was a no-brainer that they needed to start doing this. There's a reason why Spooky has kept that as a choice in everything since TNA has come out. Like Alice Cooper, Rick and Morty, we can do co-op. Right. So, I'm glad to see it here. Because there are a lot of people that I think are really intimidated from, they don't want to look stupid playing pinball. And I find that co-op mode is just really welcoming to people. Plus, when you're playing a hard game, it's nice to actually be able to get somewhere in it. Yeah, I know. It's definitely, and I think, honestly, I think when, I mean, it's been a while, but it had gotten to the point that we're playing TNA. if it wasn't in tournament play, we almost always played it co-op anymore. You know, given how hard that game is, it's deeply attractive to play it that way. And there are some twists on this co-op mode. So the way it's set up, like, if you're a player two and we're playing a four-player game, if you earn a multiball, the rest of the other players get to experience the multiball too. See, that's just awesome. Yeah. I think it's great. I love it. And it definitely seems to be one of those things that leads it to be as people often talk about the journey pen and the game where you there for a story If you can work together for completing said modes I think that has a lot of promise Because on TNA, that's the thing. I mean, it's not a huge, fancy story, but you're still trying to complete all of the reactors, and it's a lot of fun trying to do it as a team. So, we'll see. I've got high hopes for it. I don't know how big of a... This is definitely a nostalgia spell machine. I'm not sure how big it would actually be, though I can see, personally, it's a much larger nostalgia draw to me than something like Wonka was. but I don't know how well it will be on location because I don't know how big turtles are anymore. I know there's a new turtle show out there, but this one's not based off of that. I don't know how many similarities or anything there is. Yeah, I don't know how it will do on route. Of course, I don't even know what routes are going to look like here for a while anyway because I know a number of arcades have closed that I've been watching just because of the impact of dealing with the coronavirus. I did have a conversation today with Zach Minney flipping out pinball, and he did note that preliminary sales have been extremely strong, stronger than he had for Jurassic Park. So from a home collector perspective, this is doing very well. I don't know how much of that is the nostalgia and how much of that is like a COVID bump where people have just been desperate for a new pen to come out, and this is what it is, so they're just getting it, and they'll just sell it if they get something that's more up to their liking later, which is completely typical behavior in a lot of ways. But, yeah, I just, I don't know. But I think they really pulled it off. For those that grew up, quote-unquote, grew up with Turtles and now have Thuns, this was the right way to go with the art. This was the right one to reference, I think. I mean, obviously the Michael Bay movies would have been the wrong decision no matter what. And so to me, it was either going to be you got to go with the 80s cartoon style or possibly go with the initial comic style or go with the original movie style. And I think the cartoon was smarter. I think the cartoon plays probably plays better to the nostalgia button of those people who can actually afford purchasing pinball machines. because you're getting them from their childhood. And it had a much bigger draw than the movies ever did. I mean, the movies were popular enough, but it wasn't on the same level. Right, right. We were just happy to get them. Yeah. No matter how weird they were. Go, Ninja. Go, Ninja. Go, Ninja. Go, Ninja. Go. So, yeah. Now, there was, as I recall reading when this was first dropping, some drama over this with a lot of images being pulled down, a lot of leaks that were getting shut out immediately before the day before the actual announcement. Yes, that's a good point. Yeah, that was one of the less fortunate things to happen on the day of a launch or the day before the launch, which I assume for some people, I mean, yeah, I read about it, and it showered me some. I mean, quite frankly, it's not a look that I like seeing. So, yeah, a couple instances. Nap Arcade publicly shared the message they got from, I think his name is Jared Guinez. I apologize if I'm not pronouncing the name right. And we have it here in our notes, so I'll read it real quick. And Jared wrote to the Knapp Arcade page manager, who's Jason Knapp, who's been on our show a couple times. And he said, hello, if images of TMNT are not removed from your page upon receipt of this message, I will move forward with a legal complaint and copyright infringement report. This will result in a strike on your page and the content being manually removed. This is a request direct from Zach Sharp. Thanks. And then he followed up with a subsequent message that said, my apologies for misspellings as the message was sent before I completed typing it. I don't know if everyone got the same message or not. I know other people got messages. I did because I remember seeing a post from Jeff Patterson with This Week in Pinball that said content removed. So I did send an email to Jeff and I asked him about it. And he wrote back and he said, I was contacted by Stern and I voluntarily took down the posts. So we know that they didn't want the photos out there. Maybe they didn't all get as aggressive as this message to nap arcade sounds. But they clearly were reaching out about pictures that had been leaked. But they were leaked everywhere. I had them in messengers. People were DMing them. I think they were up on Pinside. so you brought up the topic what are your thoughts on what happened with all this it is interesting that I can understand why they've got an entire release plan, they've got a release schedule this isn't the first time we've seen these kind of takedown requests, not just by Stern but by other companies as well for stuff that leaked out early and I can understand the reason why, but at the same time, it seems kind of a little harsh, considering the fact that it was the best-kept secret in pinball. I mean, TMNT has been being talked about for more than a year now, that it's coming from Stern. and it seems that it is one of those things that, while it's understandable from a business point of view and your plan point of view, it also can kind of come off from a PR point of view as a little heavy-handed when you've already not done anything and had massive issues with your leaks for more than a year. yeah I have to say the dreaded cliche of I agree completely Tony this was too heavy handed that's my issue with it because the main thing to remember in most of these instances the people sharing these images are enthusiasts they're enthusiasts they're excited about the pin I'm not saying that Stern is wrong that there isn't an issue with there being a leak it's on Stern to close their leak and hopefully they can figure out ways to maybe get better hold of that message. And I know it's hard for them. And I know it's frustrating for them as well that essentially their PR messaging, I imagine they feel like the thunder is being stolen from them when this sort of thing happens. But the thing, there are a couple of things to bear in mind. One is these images were everywhere. So it seems selective when you're going after, I don't know, maybe they contacted everyone. They didn't seem like they did because they weren't getting them all pulled down from everything. it's just like the genie was out of the bottle and it's like they didn't really recognize that and then you've got people well like given he provided the example the Nap Arcade page it's like Nap Arcade has done a lot of really positive support for Stern Pinball they have I mean it might not be his goal to promote it but they get a lot of promotion out of it Nap Arcade has thousands of followers on it and it is a huge page and I just I find it as you said, heavy handed. And I've got a couple other. So let me go ahead and give you what I would have done if I were them. I would have rephrased the message. I would have said I contacted and said, hello, we're reaching out to you because we see you have shared some TMNT photos that were that were leaked under copyright. We would we would like to request that you take these photos down. If they refuse, then you can respond back and say okay, well since you're refusing, it is our intention to take legal action. You still need to convey that you want them taken down for copyright reasons. I think that needed to be in the message. But you go in and you don't have to say it snidely. You can say look, these images were leaked, they're copyrighted, we would like you to take them down. And yeah, the message is still there. You're going to take them down. But you don't have to say it with the immediate threat of legal action. Move forward with a legal... I mean, legal action stuff is very off-putting. People lose sleep over that stuff. So that's where I think that mistake was made on their part. I'd also like to note, at least in the example, because it's the only one I've read from NAP Arcade, I tried to say it as it was meant to be said. And Jared did follow up and apologize for the misspellings. This should have been, whatever the message was going to be, they've had a leak every single time. Images have always come out as far back as I can remember. They should have already drafted what their message would be. This was embarrassing, the number of errors I saw. I mean, you can see it. We have it in our internal notes. You can see how just screwy that message is. It is not well written, and it should have been polished and ready to go because that just looked unprofessional. I initially wondered. I didn't know this person's name. When I first saw this, I thought it might have been some rando, some random person just pretending to be with Stern to try and get people to take action because they were trolling and would amuse them. That was my initial thought. And final kind of nitpicky point, and not to be too snotty about it, but this is a request direct from Zach Sharp. No, a direct request from Zach Sharp is a message from Zach Sharp. Sorry. Yeah, no, definitely. You are a secondhand messenger. you do not get to say it as a request direct from Zach. That's a name drop. I'm sorry to be nitpicky about it, but no. When I'm working and Dennis third person reference when Dennis does a direct request that means I actually went out and did it. You hear from me direct. I don't send a subordinate. Make sense? No, no, no. I agree with you. That just comes off name-dropping. That comes off. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's where, and that just, again, that this wasn't polished. It should have been polished ahead of time. You would think at this point with the sheer number of issues Stern has had with this, that they just have a form at this point that just has, if images of pinball machine are not taken down, so they could just change the pinball machine to whatever the current machine is. I mean, it should just be all clean and clear. Yeah, you're right. Images of da-da-da-da have appeared on your page. We're writing to inform you that those images are protected under copyright, and we are formally requesting that you remove them. Thank you. Yeah. And then if they're not removed, you have your second follow-up that says, we have noticed that it's been 24 hours and your images are still up. It is our intention to take legal action if they are not removed immediately. You know, there's a point where you do go to the legal threat. There is. But opening with it with enthusiasts is just, it's not good business. Yeah. In my view. That's my view. Well, especially considering it is such a small hobby overall, and just how much of the reputation and word of mouth and actually having direct input with the hobbyist on a much tighter level than you do in a lot of other hobbies, it looks bad. It just looks bad. Yeah, it took some fun out of the day. But I do sympathize with Stern. I understand that they're frustrated. Yeah. I just, I hope that they learn from this to improve the messaging. And, yeah, it can be iterative. I think people will forgive this. It just. Oh, yeah. I don't think there's anything here that's, like, unforgivable. But, you know, it soured it for a number of people just the way it was. And that's unfortunate. Yeah. But, hey, it's a learning process. It's a learning process. Well, that wasn't the only bit of drama coming out in the same general time frame. There was some drama going on on the Pinball Enthusiast Facebook group, where a thread about TMNT, started by Zach Mennie of Flip N Out Pinball, turned into a free-for-all argument between himself and supporters and Jack Danger and Jack supporters to the point where the thread was closed. And surprisingly not deleted, in all honesty, because it had been closed by the time I saw it, because it's not, I don't spend a lot of time on the social medias, so I didn't catch it until long after it had happened. But it was a surprising amount of anger and lashing out back and forth on both sides for such large names in the hobby to be actively attacking each other in public like that. Yeah, that was pretty unfortunate to see as well. I did go back and look at the Pinball Enthusiast thread, and as you noted, it was locked. At the time of its locking, and I don't know how long it ran before it was locked, it seemed like it ran for a really long time. I'm a little surprised that the moderators were that loose with it. But in total, there were 203 comments to that post. and of that there were actually 87 replies to the initial and I think it was the very first comment was from Jack Danger so I see that the initial post from Zach Minney said woohoo order today and then it had like a image regarding turtles to order turtle pinball and Jack responded imagine crapping on someone trying to make money to keep their business afloat than posting this the next day. Now, you might not, I know what that's a reference to. I had no idea. Okay. I mean, I know now because it's been explained to me, but originally when I found it, I had no earthly idea. So as a, I guess to explain to the listeners, because they may not know, is on another show, which I do co-host with Zach Minney, called this, excuse me, The Pinball Show. He has a market trend segment, And in that segment, he talked about how Jack Guarnieri of Jersey Jack Pinball donated a the Twippy Award. One of the Twippy Awards that Wonka won, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, to the proprietor of Jack Bar, which is an arcade, I believe, in New York. And so that he could auction it to raise funds because the arcade has been shut down because of coronavirus. Zach was taking issue or tried to at least in the episode take issue with the fact that Jack instead of giving the award like that was a team award to the people who designed Wonka Zach's opinion was that award should have been kept with Jersey Jack pinball and they should have donated something else instead and he and I had a whole discussion because I didn't agree with Zach's perspective on it but the sometime after, I don't remember if it was the next day or what, but sometime after it, John, the proprietor of Jack Bar, came out publicly and, including on, I believe it was on Pinball Enthusiasts, and, you know, he criticized Zach's opinion on that and felt like Jack Bar had been attacked, would be how I would describe it. You know, that's what that reference is about. And I believe John and Zach, you know, started corresponding after the fact because I mean, my part of it, I stand by my statements on it. I didn't think Jack Barr did anything wrong. I don't think Zach thought Jack Barr had done anything either. But, you know, his focus was more about he really felt strongly about the award. I really don't care. Of course, it's not my award. So, but anyway, so there was a sense that it's like, oh, okay, well, it came across to some at least that it was a criticism of Jack Barr. And I don't think that was Zach's intent. But nonetheless, this resulted in a lot of discussion. So that's what Jack's referencing in this thread. I guess, maybe some full disclosure, I know we had Jack on years ago as a guest host. I know you really enjoyed having him on. You and him talked quite a bit on that episode. I had audio issues, so most of my comments had to be edited out because they were never recorded. Unfortunate. And also, full disclosure, you're not the biggest. fan of Zach Minion, how he performs on podcasts. Is that a fair? I don't think that's an unknown item. Yeah, you've been, you've already, you know, his kind of showmanship-y style does not sit well with your more grounded, down to earth approach. Is that? I think that is a very good way to put it. So, with those sort of, I guess, biases declared out there, you mentioned all this thread. What were your thoughts when you saw it? I thought it made pretty much just the pinball media, like us and them and everybody involved, it just looks bad. It looked really bad to see sides forming and that kind of back and forth going, just period. I wasn't, I was not I mean it started out bad and then as more people piled on it just got worse and as more accusations went out it seems like it's one of those things where there's obviously a lot more to it than just that, that was not the stage one of that round of conversations and it's just something that I thought overall looked bad for everybody involved Yeah, I'm actually, and I'm not super familiar with the rules on Pinball Enthusiasts. I'm really surprised it was allowed to go that far. Because when the thread got closed, there was a notation that, it sounded like a moderator had been monitoring it. And afterwards, I'm like, and this was all okay? Yeah. I was a little surprised about that. It's their forum. They run it how they see fit. But I was surprised. It seemed like the kind of, I mean, I'm a member of a lot of forums that would have crushed and trashed that kind of thing long before it got as far as it did. I will say that I felt that Jack coming into a thread about TMNT and vaguely referencing this Jack Barthington, because his comment, as I quoted, didn't name it. Right. That was, I did not view that as a professional move. I'll agree with you that came off because I mean, Jack's trying to sell Stern pinball machines, Jack's getting ready to, he even promoted that he was going to be streaming the game later in the thread, so it's like, I thought aren't we all on the same, we being them, not me, because I'm not involved with any of this but it's like, aren't we all on the same team? Isn't this supposed to be a day to celebrate Stern's new release? And then there's this thing with the legal threats on the photos going on, and then there's this as well, and it's like, this doesn't, it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth. I noticed in that set of threads that John with Jack Bar came in and said that he didn't want any of this, he didn't agree with any of this, and didn't think that Zach's business deserved to be criticized in this regard, so that tells me that Jack didn't discuss this with John, he just went off and did it. And I just thought, what's going on here? yeah that's one of those things it definitely seems like something that should have been handled behind closed doors if somebody was upset about something enough to have said something like that otherwise it seems like one of those things that was just trying to score points as it were I agree with you that at this I mean I don't know how deep Everything exactly must be, you know, in terms of whatever their internal difference, internal, whatever their private differences are. But it sounds like Jack and Zach need to have a conversation about whatever it is. They don't have to like each other, but it would be ideal for them to both get to a place where they can live with each other. Not literally. I'm not asking them to move in. That would be a very odd couple sort of situation. but I mean I saw Zach's wife had weighed in and they indicated that they tried to reach out and Jack's not responding except on social media and I just don't think social media is the right place I mean they can use messenger or DM or what not but I don't think publicly whatever this is publicly is not the place to talk about it right and I think you're right and I think all they did all that did was hurt pinball I think that's all that did I think that's what most drama in this hobby does. It's just hurt this hobby. And I know people just can't seem to help it sometimes, but trolling is not healthy. It is not a healthy activity. No, but it seems to be what is becoming more and more common in... I was going to say in pinball, but you know what? It just seems to be becoming more and more common. We see it all the time in video games We know this isn't unique To pinball I think the difference that I find in pinball Versus video games is The reason why trolling is so I guess effective in video games Is you don't know the trolls Here in pinball Everyone like knows Everyone else If you say I mean you saying what you're saying on this episode That's going to go around Zach's going to hear about it That's how it is I know. And our names are known. People are going to know, well, this is what Tony said. This is what Dennis said. That's what my dog said. That's what the dog said. And the thing is, normally with that, people tend to be more cautious. I think, you know, I don't know. I think we're being pretty fair in our discussion here. And part of that is probably knowing that people will know who we are and they will judge what we say. Yeah. So we try and exercise a degree of professionalism when it comes up. These sort of fights in these pinball groups, it doesn't look good. It does not look good. Not at all. That was a thread about sales of turtles. Jackpot didn't have anything to do with it. It was weird to see. It was weird for it to be allowed to continue. And I just hope that people can somehow find a way to move past it. People aren't going to like everyone in this hobby. There are plenty of people I hate in this hobby. You don't see me name-dropping them and trying to make a thing of it. I just ignore them. I just try and stay away from them, and that's how it is. Now, privately, ask me, and I'm more than happy to tell you who I despise in this hobby, but I won't do it publicly. Or I try not to. I don't know. We'll see if I lose my temper. We'll see. We'll see how things go after this episode comes out. You know, when you've got the rage, when you've got the rage, people, you know, they can lash out. But, you know, the thing was, the Jack Bar thing had come up in the earlier day. And that would be, that thread would have been where that fight would have made the most sense. But it didn't happen in that thread. It happened in a turtle's sail thread. That's what's weird. Yeah. No. And, you know what? It would probably be a lot less weird if it had happened in a thread that was about the exact thing. Because otherwise it should. That's when your blood's up. Right. Right when that happened, when John posted and gave his reaction to that, I completely understand why there are people raging at each other in that discussion. Yeah. I totally, I get it. This seems more like a targeted hit. Yeah, it's picking a fight. Instead of it being in the moment and in the thread where the conversation, it's like taking a conversation out of one thread, picking it up, and then going, oh, this person is posting in this other thread now. I'm going to go hit them back with what they said in something else. Just tracking them down. Yeah. No. Yeah. And that's where I use it. Yeah. That's where I use the term stop and festival. It looks poor on the people involved. It looks poor on the hobby. It looks poor on... That's the thing. Both of these individuals make their living with pinball. Which you would think would make them more concerned about their images. I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Yes, I agree, but... I don't know. I don't know. It It weird Yeah it weird I mean I would normally and I don know but I normally had thought that after this just because of all the attention it got that Stern Pinball would be reaching out to both of them to try and, because, I mean, they both advocate for the same company. Yeah. Right? I mean, Zach sells a ton of Stern Pinball machines, and as far back as, like, The Walking Dead, I think every major gameplay reveal for Stern has been hosted by Jack Danger. So they're on the same team. Yeah, you would think that would be more of their driving concern than whatever else it is. Well, maybe things will work out in the future. We can only hope. We'll just have to wait and see. Sorry, I keep doing my Craig Bobby impression. I can't help it. I've heard him so much. It's just like so... I've heard him so much. So, can we say a word of happiness now? Yeah, we've still got more pinball. More pinball. But happy pinball. We had someone writing. I don't usually quote emails. I usually just respond to them. But this, I figured, would be a good discussion. So, we had Sean Ledgerwood. He wrote in to the EGP email address, Eclectic Gamers Podcast at gmail.com. And he said, Hi, Dennis slash Tony. Faithful listener, and I have followed the story of Tony getting his grail pin, etc. Have been a little surprised he's not talked about it more on the show, as in how he's enjoying it, what he likes about it, is it what he thought, etc. But my real related question is about, quote, grail pins and what that really means. For example, my grail pin was Lord of the Rings. I was fortunate enough to get one. Love it. Never leaving. But being human, two months later, I had a new grail pin thought. Are grail pins really grail or just a series of goals to get what you want? Am I just greedy or does everyone behave the same and not be satisfied? Would like to know your thoughts on this. Sean, P.S. Don't judge me because I am friends with David Dims, which is undoubtedly directed at you, Tony, because David is the one who always causes the serial killer. Yeah. For people who need the context. That's the context Even in the comment on The This Week in Pinballs Media Promoter database Yeah We had an area player If David Dennis is listening We had an area player write in on one of our Kind of private discord channels that we have For the KC competitive scene And he's like Who's this guy who's calling Tony a murderer He's like So, David, it's not resonating with everyone. It's a little too inside baseball for most people. So, that being said, let's open with the not real question, but the question he opened with. He wants to know a little bit about what you think about Catfish Queen now that you've had time with it, more time with it. I still enjoy it a lot. I'm glad to have it. It is a game that, being an EM, it's not got some kind of giant journey deep rule set like you'd see on more modern games. But it's fun. It's still more difficult than you would think. There's one shot in particular that I've still not managed to get, which involves lighting all six of the, there are six targets on the machine. And they're scattered throughout the play field. And they're scattered throughout the play field. But when you light one, two, and three, it opens a diverter that if you go down the right out lane, it'll drop it back into the ball trough. But when it does that, the diverter closes and they unlight. Oh, so you don't want to, it's like you get your ball back, but you lose all your progress. Right. And when you light four and five, and you don't have to have one, two, and three. You can just light four and five. It opens a gate, which if you put the ball through is 300 points, and it feeds back to the ball trough. And then there's also six, where if you hit six, it opens another gate at the top of the play field, and you go through it, and it's 300 points, and you go back to the ball trough. So that's where the points are. But if you light all of them without going through any of them, it lights the special on the left outlay. And I have as of yet to light all of them and go down the left outlay. Well, it sounds really hard. Yeah, it's a little difficult. I can get them kind of reliably lit. The problem is you have to start over if you hit any of the shots or you hit the right out lane. You have to start over because you have to relight everything. But I can pretty reliably get them all lit. I just never seem to make it down that left out lane. It always goes somewhere else. But it's still a fun game. And when I first played this game, he was asking about what made this my grail and what drew me to it. And I've talked about it before. And it's a game that when I first played it, I hated it Absolutely And the more I played it, the more I enjoyed it Why? Because I like the mushroom pops I kind of would like to see mushroom pops return Because I enjoy them I like how it's laid out And how it plays back and forth And I like the different shots you can go for Like I said, it's not a super deep game, but it's a lot of fun. And if you get dialed in just right, and I've had a couple games where I've gotten the shot dialed in just right, where I could actually fling the ball off the right flipper, go through and light six, have the gate pop open and have it going just right, that if the exact same shot, I would light six, and it would go up and it would kick around and go straight through the gate, 300 points, six would shut down, relaunch the ball, and do it again. Just keep, every once in a while, I'll get it right, I'll get it right, that one shot like three, four times in a row. But then I'll lose it because it's the little short flippers and everything's not sitting just right and you don't hit it just perfectly, you can't do it. So it's that game where it's fun to do the shots and everything I go for on that game is less of, oh, I'm just trying to get massive points and more. This, I'm going for something very specific. It's getting, I find that it's actually helping me shoot better at aiming. It is not helping me with catching and shooting, because with the tiny little flippers, that's not really much of a thing. I can catch occasionally, but less often than I would like. but it's definitely I'm still having a lot of fun I put five games on it Friday night I didn't play it at all yesterday but yeah Friday night I came home from work and I was sitting there and I just fired it up and put another five games on it and it's still deeply enjoyable being an EM it doesn't have You know, since it doesn't have all the wizard modes, it's not like I have the goals that way to go for. But I'm real happy with it. I'm glad I have it. On to the other question about what is a grail pen. I think, and the reason I had originally designated the machine as my grail pen is, A, a lot of it had nothing to do about the machine itself. And it had everything to do about how I felt about the machine. and my conversion from disliking the machine to loving the machine over the course of a weekend, over the course of a weekend at a pinball tournament at Texas, everything put together made that pin special to me. Compared to all of the pins we played that entire weekend, and we played hundreds of pins that weekend, that was the one that stuck in my head. that's the one that now, years later, I can still remember going back to that machine again and again and again after the tournament was over and when it was just in the open free play section. And for those reasons, that machine, to me, became something special. It'd be kind of like, I know some people have, I've talked to people in the past who it's like, oh, when I was growing up, they had, you know, the local pizza place had a single pinball machine, And that was the machine I played for years because it was the only machine they had. So it has a special place in their heart due to that. And that's what it is to me with Campus Queen is it has a special place in my heart due to where I first played it, the way my thoughts changed about it over the course of the weekend, and the hilarity to me that it's called Campus Queen and it has all of these images on it of these college students. And I'm 41, and they still look like they're 10 years older than me. So. Campus was different back then. It was a lot harder life back then. Yeah. But that's the thing. I think when it comes, but to the grail pen question, I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone to have a new grail pen once they get one, or if they dislike. I think it's, I think a grail pen, something, or a grail anything is something that some people just don't have or some people do. I know, I mean, some people have it for a car. It's just, it's something that it's your goal. It's what you want. It's something that has special meaning to you for whatever reason. because my favorite machine of all time is Attack from Mars. But I would love to have an Attack from Mars, but I don't consider it a grail machine because it's not something that I think would be, that would be A, terribly hard to get if I, you know, had the money for it and was willing to spend the money on it. and B, it's not something that, even though it's my favorite game to play, it doesn't have the exact same kind of ties into my being and my persona that Campus Queen forged over that weekend. Yeah, my take on the Grail question is that I think that it's a series, I go with the series of goals argument that Sean presented. I always think back to what that, you know, we say the term grail and sort of the, I guess, entomology of that word. Or in this case, like what, when we say grail, we're talking about the Holy Grail. We're thinking about King Arthur and Knights of the Round Table. And I think it's important to remember that that was the grail quest. It's about the quest. It's not about the object. So for me, yes, it's completely normal for you to go about, get a grail, and then set yourself for a new grail quest. That said, it's also completely possible for someone to go on their quest like Percival, get their grail, and then that's it. You have to quote from Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot, I have run my course. There's no new quest. You don't want to go on another quest. You're done questing. So it's a question about, you know, how that approach is. I have seen people on Pennside, for example, who have said that they have, in their view, built the perfect collection for them. They have every game that they want. They're done questing. They might still be in the hobby. They might still be into pinball, but their acquisition process is no longer there. They're done. They'll experience new games and different games at shows and stuff. So in that regard, I think it's completely normal to change your quest. But that's what I did. So I wanted an 8-Ball Deluxe-style game. So I went on a quest for, like, am I going to get 8-Ball Deluxe LE? Am I going to get Bad Girls? Am I going to get Sharky's Shootout? I ended up finding a Sharky's Shootout, got it, owned it, played it, sold it. That quest is done. I'm not after an 8-Ball Deluxe or Bad Girls at this stage. I had my experience with the layout, and I'm done with it. So a new quest would be like, I want a Lord of the Rings. So that could be seen as a grail pin. But I put, like, why is it so hard? They're up for sale all the time. I have rules about how much I'm willing to pay. That's what makes my quest challenging, is I won't pay the normal going rate for one. So what am I going to do about it? Or how I kind of quested for a good deal on a Walking Dead, and I finally got one, and I was happy. But that quest is done now. So while that game might stay in my lineup, I might choose the quest for something new and give up. I might say, all right, I've had enough time with Super Orbit, and I'll let Super Orbit go, and then I'll go on a new quest to fill that spot. So that's just how I see it. Now, it's interesting, the differences in the way people see what is or isn't and what would count as a grail. Because just to continue a little bit with a little bit of an extra example, because it crossed my mind while you were talking, I talked about how Campus Queen was my grail because of the emotional connection. And it got me to thinking, I remember playing video games with my dad and my mom, and the video game we played the most often, the one I have the strongest connection to with them, would be Burger Time. Because we used to play Burger Time a lot on our Intellivision when I was very young. and the truth of the matter is though is I wouldn't consider like an Intellivision I have no interest or even a a Burger Time arcade machine I mean it'd be it's like I wouldn't I wouldn't turn one down if I had a good deal on one if I had a good chance but it's not something that I would actively seek out but I have very fond memories of going with my grandparents to an arcade that used to be in Olathe and playing the set down Star Wars game. And I have very fond memories of going camping. And we always, one of the places we went camping to all the time had an arcade at the campsite. And they had a, they had a whole bunch of, this was in the early 90s, but they had a whole bunch of 80s arcade machines there, and the one that I remember playing the absolute most was a cocktail table missile command. And these set down Star Wars because of the tie to my grandfather and my grandmother, and then all the time I put on that cocktail missile command have a stronger tie to me. So that's something that I would be willing to hunt down if I ever get enough space to be able to actually put stuff like that. And something that I could be considering a grail. Like right now, I cannot think of a single pinball machine that I would call a grail machine that I would go after at this point. Because nothing has that kind of emotional attachment. because for me, I feel more like I need an emotional attachment to consider something a grail than just a, I like this. I mean, because if I like something, I'll get it because I like it. But to me, that doesn't have the same connotation for something to be a grail. You need a grail to make the dog stop barking. That's what I need. Oh. for something to be what I would consider a grail pen or a grail anything requires that deeper emotional connection. Okay. Yeah, I get that. I get that logic. Makes sense. Well, we only have one more pinball thing, and then we'll move on to video games, and that is we have to bring back the hit game Build-A-Bank. Build-A-Bank. Build-A-Bank. Build-A-Bank. Build-A-Bank. It's like Build-A-Bear, but with a bang. Now, here's the question. do I make the choices that I know are the meta choices so I have a real chance to win or do I make the choices that are true to who I am in my soul? I don't know I don't know. For those that are not familiar with Build-A-Bang it's very simple. I have a set of game ranges from the pin side top 100, well it's beyond the top 100 but that's what we call it and I've got random.org loaded up I'll be putting these lists of, generally it's a list of 10 games, and depending on ties. And I throw that in, and then we're going to randomly have four of those chosen as selectable. And then we trade off on who chooses first, and then who gets to pick second. You can't pick the same game. And we build a bank of six machines, and then up on Facebook we'll put up a poll where people will get to vote for who built the better game bank. Now, this time, we're going to move up 10 in all categories. So that means we're going to pick Penn State top 11 through 20, 61 through 70, 111 through 120, 161 through 170, 211 through 220, and then on the EM list, 11 through 20. And I picked first last time, so you're going to pick first this time. Makes sense. All right. And we trade off, so for those that didn't know. So, people know what the pool of games are on the 11 to 20 when I took the snapshot from Pinside, which was a couple days ago, is this list and this is the order that they were ranked in. Deadpool, Indiana Jones the Pinball Adventure, ACDC, The Addams Family, Star Trek, the Stern version, Star Trek The Next Generation, Tales of the Arabian Nights, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory Spider-Man, the Stern version and dialed in. Okay. So I'm going to click the randomize button. The choices according to randomize that we can pick from are Spider-Man ACDC The Addams Family and Indiana Jones the Pinball Adventure. And you get to pick first, Tony. Which of those four is your first for the bank. Well, this is actually a little hard. But only a little. But I'm going to go of these... See, I enjoy all of these games. Well, they are all really high-ranked. So that's not surprising. None of these are turd tier. Yeah, none of them are turd tier. I think I am going to go with Adam's Family because I think it's the one that I would put quarters in the most often. If all four of these were sitting in a row, I would probably play all of them multiple times, but I think I'd probably end up going back to Adam's Family most often. Okay. Well, you have done very well on Adam's Family competitively quite a bit. It has carried you through on a number of tournaments that I can recall. It is a deeply popular game. I will go with ACDC. And the reason I'm going to go with that is it's not my favorite Steve Ritchie layout, but it is really high up there. It's a great flow game. I actually like the music, so I enjoy that. It's really challenging. It's the pinball machine I associate with from 2012 that, quote-unquote, brought pinball back. This was the game that launched, or at least just for coincidence of timing, was the sign that pinball was back and it was going to grow as a hobby. 2012 was actually the year, though I didn't know about this game at the time, that I got my first pinball machine. So for all of those reasons, I'm going to go ahead and go with ACDC. That's a good pick. It probably would have been my number two because I enjoy that game a lot as well. My number two would have probably been Spider-Man. That would have been my number three. Which is another Steve Ritchie. I was getting my Steve Ritchie inside. Got to get your Ritchie on. Okay. I'll be picking first this next go, but this is the 61st through 70th game ranking list. The choices are Alien, Monsters, Ripley's Believe It or Not, Tales from the Crypt, Stargazer, Elvira and the Party Monsters, Centaur, World Cup Soccer, Oktoberfest, and Roadshow. And I shouldn't have said those are the choices. I should say that's the initial pool. That's the initial pull. Yeah, that's the initial pull. All right. So now I've clicked. So my randomizer says our choices are Munsters, Alien, Tales from the Crypt, and Roadshow. Roadshow. Roadshow. Oh, my God. It's going to be way higher rate than that. Well, here's my problem. I hate Roadshow. I know you're going to pick Roadshow. It's your favorite game. No, I hate Roadshow. I can't recall ever having played Tales from the Crypt. Maybe I've played it once. I have no memory of it. Monsters, I've played a lot of. I don't really like very much. Alien, I've not played a lot of, and I didn't like it very much. But you love the theme. And so that's what I'm going to go with. I'm going to go with Alien. Yes. You're really going to take Alien. Yes, because I know. I didn't care for Alien when I played it. I thought the shots felt a little off, but it wasn't horrid. I loved the theme integration. It's a wide body, and I don't care for that, but I know I don't care for monsters, and I absolutely don't like Roadshow, which is another wide body, and I know nothing about Tales from the Crypt. So it's like, based off a theme, and I think that the rules in Alien, Joe Shover's rules, those are good. So I can say unequivocally that the rules are solid for Alien, even if the layout's not the best thing. But, hey, we're in 61st to 70th. They can't all be winners. It's probably going to just be broken in my lineup because it's Highway Pinball, but I'm going with Alien. Wow. I did not – I knew you loved the theme, but I didn't think you would actually go with Alien. What did you think I was going to go with? Honestly, I figured you'd go with Monsters. Hmm. I figured that would be your... I feel nothing with it. I don't hate it, but I don't like it. I feel nothing. I assumed feeling nothing about it would still rank it higher for you than any of these other machines. Alien... I understand, but at the same time, you've always been the theme-doesn't-matter guy. No, I mean, you told me these four games are for sale. I tell you, I'm not buying any of them. Well, yeah, no, I wouldn't buy any of them either. And I actively like one of these games, and I still wouldn't buy any of these games if they were available. I don't know. So given that, maybe I'm just picking it because I think that people will be like, oh, that's unique. Let's vote for Dennis. Maybe that's the reason. No, I think you're picking on theme. That's what it is. There's nothing wrong with picking on theme. I don't know. It may be a mistake. I've heard Tales is really good, especially it's got a chat age code update that I could have, but I just don't, I don't know it. Right. No, I understand. That's the same thing. I don't think I've ever played that game. I don't think I've ever played it. Um, so what are you picking Tony? I'm going to go with the only one that I actively am with like in this, in this lineup, which is roadshow. And I already put your name actively like is, it's perfectly, it's Friday. Yeah. Yeah, it's Friday. It's perfectly fine. It is a game. It is the only game other than Tales from the Crypt, because I don't know that one, that I would put quarters in without, you know, it being somebody like, hey, let's play this. Okay. Or being required to in tournament play. But, yeah, no, it is the only real choice for me here. It's got some fans, so I may be behind the eight ball this week. I mean, I said it's an enjoyable enough game, as long as you don't have the shaker motor set too hard to have it in the wrong place, and it shakes an entire building. I don't think it gets turned down any quieter than shakes an entire building. I think that's one of the things, one of the mysteries of Roadshow. Part of the mystery of Roadshow. But, yeah. All right. Well, our third pool, which you will get to pick first from, is the 111th through 120th solid state games. And so here's the initial list before the sorting. Whodunit NBA Fastbreak Space Shuttle Black Rose Batman Forever Mystery Castle Sorcerer Corvette Junkyard and Mustang So I going to click randomize and it says the four that we can pick from are Corvette Sorcerer, Space Shuttle, and NBA Fastbreak. And you get to pick first. Let's see. If I recall right, Corvette's the one with the engine that you shoot the ball into the engine and it rocks back and forth? I think so. I thought that was Indian Annapolis 500, so now I feel bad. Now I'm going to – I do have IPDB loaded, so let me take a look to be sure. Nope, you're right. Okay. I only remember the little cars that race on the right by the shooter lane area. Yeah. For me, it's for whatever reason, it's from playing it at Texas, I think. I remember the engine. Okay. The engine that rocks back and forth when you shoot into it. And the other one I'm trying to remember for sure is Space Shuttle. I want to make sure I'm not getting this backwards with Space Station. Hmm. You're probably more familiar with Space Station. That's what I'm thinking. That's why I'm thinking it's, that's why I wanted to look to be sure. Well, I'm assuming it's the 84 Williams Space Shuttle. Yes, yes it is. Instead of the 77 Sega or the 80s Zachariah? Right, right, right, or the Zachariah one. No, no, no, this is, yeah, this is the one. Yes, okay. The Williams one. Yeah, it's the Williams one, so. Okay, look at the play field. Yeah, that's the one I thought it was. No, the one I was thinking of was Space Station. So, hmm, this, as always, when we get to these farther out games is where it starts getting more difficult to make the decision. I can tell you one for sure that is not going to be on my list, and that's going to be NBA Fastbreak. I'm not a huge fan. It's not a terrible game. I'm not saying that. I'm just not a huge fan of it. It's Sorcerer. Okay, I do recognize Sorcerer. I have played Sorcerer. it's got the cool back glass. Hmm. Real tough. I'm going to go... I'm going to go with Corvette. Though I can see where... I think a lot of people would probably consider Sorcerer the correct answer. I think I'm going to go with Corvette because it's the one I have more memories of. Which means I've either played it a lot more or it has a much stronger tie to me. So, yeah. Okay. I am going to go with Space Shuttle. The game that saved Williams Pinball Division. Maybe it will save me now. It could. It's got the molded plastic. It's got voice stuff. I don't know. It's not my favorite layout, but it's got some interesting challenge to it. It's not bad. I think it's well integrated. But, I mean, all of these, I think, were pretty well integrated. of the four. Sorcerer, I thought about Sorcerer. My issue is, unless you do modifications, it's a bit of a one-trick in terms of how you are to play it. And like you, I'm not enamored with NBA Fastbreak, and you took Corvette, so I couldn't consider that. My thought was with the Space Shuttle, I was thinking about Space Station is the one I like. Yeah, no, no, Space Station would have been an easy pick. Yeah. I really like Space Station. That's why I had to check, because I'm like, I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't remembering the wrong machine, because that would be sad. Okay. Well, our next category is the 161st through 170th, and I'll be picking first. And here's the initial pool. It's Transporter the Rescue, Terminator 3 Rise of the Machines, Fireball Classic, Robo War Blackout Class of 1812 No Fear Dangerous Sports Grand Lizard Nineball and Embryon We can randomize now The choices will be Blackout Terminator 3 Embryon and Fireball Classic That is a kind of tough lineup So, given those four, I'm going with Terminator 3 for my pick. Steve Ritchie design again, so now I've ended up with the second one. I actually like T3 better than T2. I think the rules are better. I really like the RPG feature in the backbox. I think it's fun. And you get to access it quite a bit. Yeah, he does tell you to shoot here and here a lot, which is tiresome. But I don't think I've played Blackout. I never cared for Embryon. and, I mean, Fireball Classic is okay, but I've never loved Fireball. So it's like, this is the only one of the four that I actually would say I like. The best thing about Embryon is that backlash. Mm-hmm. Hey, maybe that's the strength that you need. But of these three, I would agree with you. If it was an available choice for me, I would have taken Terminator 3. Unlike last time, I don't really have a theme going. Well, I guess I kind of got a minor travel theme going. Hmm. I don't know. You got to kind of stretch for it. Got to kind of stretch for it to make it work. Fireball Classic. Hmm. Tough choices. I'm thinking, I think it's Fireball, the original, or Fireball 2 that had the zipper flippers? The original. The original had zippers. This is classic. This isn't the one with the zippers. This is like a re-release, rebuild, modernization thing, isn't it? A solid state remake. Yep. Right, right. Yeah, they went in, and it had similar art. They did a few rules changes, and there were no zipper flippers on it. Yeah. They went with three-inch flippers instead. Right. Okay. Well, given that, I think I'm going to go with Embryon because the art's awesome. All right, fifth round. You get to pick first. This is the 211th through 220th best games, according to Pinside, of the solid state type. and so you know, here is what the initial pool of them is did I even oops, I'm sorry I was in the process of also pasting it into my randomizer no, I did it right, it scrolled down so I thought I was dropping one for some reason so the game pool initially is Monopoly The Amazing Spider-Man that's the Gottlieb game Farfalla Robocop Surf and Safari, Fireball 2, Devil's Dare, The Pinball Circus, Sinbad, WWE WrestleMania, that's the Stern one, and CSI, Crime Scene Investigation. So, clicking randomize now to see what our choices are. Our choices will be Monopoly, The Pinball Circus, Sinbad, and CSI. Ooh, that is... I don't know. You will get to go first. I don't know if I've ever played Sinbad. I know I've played CSI. I apparently can't spell circus today. Or apparently can I spell Monopoly? So, let's see. Let's, let me take a look at a couple of these to see if they're the games, the game that is in my head or if I'm just. Well, you've not played Pinball Circus. I'm amazed it's even in this list. They only make two of them. Yeah. How would that even make this list? That's insane. It had enough votes on Pennside, I guess, to be ranked. Because people play it at the Pinball Hall of Fame. Oh, that would make sense. That's the... That's that vertical game that Python Angela does. Yeah. Well, I don't know. That would be the meta pick then, wouldn't it? That would probably be the meta pick. But I've obviously not been there So I've not played it Let me check Sinbad Let me see if Sinbad That's the System 1 game Is the one I'm thinking of I think we've played it at Texas And I think Todd has it Okay, I have played this game Yeah, I think I was at the last Pinnapalooza Yeah, hmm I don't have a lot of memories of this one though I recognize the playfield though but I don't have a lot of memories of it. And you've played Monopoly at Texas, and I think you've played CSI at Texas. Yeah, I've played both Monopoly and CSI. I'm going to go. This is definitely round five. There is nothing great here. So mean. I'm sorry. There's nothing great here to pick from. You have four things to pick from, like you always do. Oh, no, no. No, no. I understand. And it's a perfectly fair number of games to pick from. It's just none of these games are great. None of these games are games that I would probably go drop money in that I've actually played. I'm going to go with the incredibly broken CSI. Oh. So how'd you end up landing on that one? Random.org. Random.org. No, it wasn't that bad. It's because while I remember the play field and stuff from Monopoly, I actively can remember bits about CSI. Because CSI, as I recall, is the one where it's got the centrifuge and all the... Yeah. Yeah, you are right. Yep. So that was the choice there. These are not games that I have lots of experience on. Well, I will go with Sinbad as my pick. I think it is one of the best System 1 games that Gottlieb made. I wouldn't argue that it is the best, but I'd say it's definitely top five, arguably top three. Good variety there with different drop banks. It's very, very challenging. It's got the four-flipper design at the bottom, and you can scissor yourself on them, so ball control is a must on that. I just, overall I think it's a fun asymmetrical layout from an era that wasn't known for strong games, and I'm not too surprised it's this far down on the list, but I actually think it is a pretty good player, so I'm going to go with that I, you know, and that's one of those things I don't mind the old four-flipper games, I kind of I kind of like them It is a cool little thing that, once again, you don't see anymore And so, now, we will go to our EM choices. I will pick first from this set. This is the EM 11th through 20th, though. And the initial pool is, and I'll name the games in years for EMs because it gets so confusing because we're not going to probably know any of these. Quite frankly. Maybe. If we played one of these machines, then that's probably... We might have played a lot of them, it's just I don't always remember from the name. Actually, I recognize a number. I actually recognize more of these names than I did in the 1 through 10. Oh, that's funny. So we've got Heat Wave, which is a Williams 1964. I typed Luck Strike. I'm guessing I accidentally didn't hit the key hard enough, and I meant to say Lucky Strike. Yep, I did. I mis-typed it. Oh, good. Cigarette-based game. Lucky Strike, not Luck Strike. I'm going to edit my spreadsheet here real quick, but I'll leave it the same in random. Apollo, the Williams 1967 game. The Bank-A-Ball, Williams 1965. Centigrade 37 Got Leave 1977 Teacher's Pet Williams 1965 Capersville Bally 1966 Doggies Bally 1968 Maybe that's pronounced Doge's I'm not sure because there's only one G in it World Fair Got Leave 1964 and Bazaar Bally 1966 How Bazaar Yes, or it's spelled as a bazaar to shop at. Bazaar. And the choices are Apollo, Bazaar, Centigrade 37, and Doggy Doji. Doggy's Doji's, whichever one it is. Doji. So Apollo, Bazaar, Centigrade 37. That's the one with the bagatelle on the side. Yep. and D-O-G-I-E-S doggies doggies I'm loading it I don't understand D-O-G-E-S D-O-G-I-E-S D-O-G-I-E-S yeah I'm going to load that one that's weird yeah there okay and it's a guy and he's on a horse and there are bulls like a stampede oh I'm going to guess get along little doggies I'm guessing that's what it means. Like, because, like, things seem to be hurting. Oh, the art is terrible. Wow. Oh, man, that is rough. I just. That's like some high concept, weird looking bull. Like somebody took a walk through an art gallery and then decided to try and make a pinball back glass. Looking at the layout, is this a Ted Zale? It's got the mushroom bumpers on it. He loved that stuff. Yeah, it is a Ted Zale. Okay. Huh. I mean, the layout looks interesting on doggies. Let's see, Apollo, I remember. We talked about Apollo last time. Yeah, because it was a different version of it. So I know Apollo. I don't need to re-load that. I know Centigrade. I don't know Bazaar though I have to look at that That's going to be a zale as well Because it's a ballet from the 60s Let's see here Playfield It's tamer art That's for sure The art is definitely Much more What you would expect Yes Very very much so Okay, well, my first, it's my pick this time. I'm going to go with Apollo. Basically, I'm picking what you picked last time. Yeah. He's supposed to have had Evolvers. I think the rocket rollovers are really cool. You know, there's stuff to shoot for on it. It's a symmetrical layout, which isn't normally my thing, but here's the thing. The only other one I played is Centigrade 37, which is probably the right answer. I hate it. I know you do. I hate Centigrade, and it would be just too disingenuous for me to go with a game. I just hate that much. I just don't think it's fun at all. I think people only like it for its art. And, hey, in honor of the SpaceX launch, I'm going to go with Apollo. I will be 100% honest with you. I would have chosen Apollo myself if it was an option. Since it's not, I'm going to go with Centigrade. That's the smart one. I think that's the smart one. Because the other two are not having... Doggies. Two doggies. The art on... Oh, yeah. I want to play doggies because that layout looks fun. The layout doesn't look bad. I will admit with that. It looks really interesting. But the art is just so bad. Yeah, no. It's something else. So, anyway. just as a quick recap the vote will be open for about a week up on Facebook. I'll get that up shortly after I release the episode. But looking again at the pit choices so for the 11-20 range I went with ACDC Tony went with the Addams Family. For the 61-70 range I went with Alien. Tony went with Roadshow. For the 111-120 range I went with Space Shuttle. Tony went with Corvette. For the 161- 170 range I went with T3. Tony went with Embryon. For the 211th through 220th range, I went with Sinbad. Tony went with CSI. And for the EM11th through 20th range, I went with Apollo, and Tony went with Centigrade. I think this time our banks are a lot closer in terms of what people are going to think. I think you're right. I felt really good about my choices last time. Oh, no, no. It became quickly apparent last time that... Because you didn't take Pirates. I didn't take Pirates. Well, and here's the thing is I figured at the time that not taking pirates meant that I was already in a bad place. But I just, yeah, I mean, my takeaway on some of this stuff is that, well, no, I don't. In a way, I was going to say I felt like you leaned a little more modern, but it really, I was thinking that because of your choice to go with Corvette when I went with a much older game, Space Shuttle, and you go into CSI when I went with a really old game, Sinbad. Right. But on the flip side, I did go with T3 when you went with Embryon, which is kind of the same thing. Yeah. And, of course, the first pick is they're all modern, so you can't really lean older on that one. Yeah. But you also did hit Bally Williams a lot harder. I did. You went with Adam's Family, which is Bally Williams. You went with Roadshow, which is Bally Williams. You went with Corvette, which is Bally Williams. Ambryon predates that period So I wouldn't count that one And so Whereas for me I leaned more stern When that was kind of in that same Situation Because again Space Shuttle is kind of before Bally Williams were combined Anyway we'll just have to see what happens We will have to see Going to have to see Well that's it for the pinball segment We do have some video game news to go through We've been recording for quite a while, so luckily there's not a huge amount of video game stuff. It's just nice to actually have had stuff to talk about. We did. We did. And some of this, of course, it'll be shorter for the listeners because some of the picking stuff is going to go quicker on the game, as it often does. So I did want to open with a sort of transition topic with virtual pinball. Zacharia Pinball, the video game. They did announce that they recently updated their Android app. They added two remakes, four deluxe tables, and a new mode called Zombie Invasion. They also updated their Xbox version. They added all the 2019 remake tables. They added three deluxe tables, and they added Zombie Invasion mode as well. They did reach out to me and ask about if I would play in AS. They offered me codes. So they sent me free codes for the Xbox One version. I've always been playing the PC version, so I didn't own any of the Xbox stuff. So they actually sent me a bunch of codes, and most of them were not. They had expired, so they hadn't gotten me the new codes yet. So what I ended up getting initially was the Deluxe Table Pack 1, which came with the three Deluxe Tables, a Remake Table Pack 5, which I think came with six Remake Tables, and the Zombie Invasion Mode. So I played all of that. So here are my thoughts. zombie invasion mode is okay but just okay I didn't really care for it it reminds me of some of the pinball effects modes that they used to do especially in pinball effects 2 some of the like modes in Iron Man or Spider-Man where they'd exploit the virtual nature and they'd like have Doc come out and you'd have to hit him with the ball to knock him back and stuff it's like that the zombies are coming out and you need to hit them and they've got like power-ups you can activate missiles and stuff it just plays really long and it feels really repetitive to me, so I just didn't have fun with it. The deluxe tables were cool, though. I liked that. That was where they kind of reimagined the... They've been doing reimaginings of Zocaria pins, so it's like, if you go and do the retro reimaginings, it's like they go and they take Zocaria games and they wood rail them, and then they have the remakes, and they take Zocaria pins and they DMD them, and now the deluxe tables seem to be, let's take Zocaria pins and let's LCD them. What would it be like if Stern Pinball were to do them today? So, I'd say of the three, my favorite was the one called, the re-envisioned one called Spooky. I just thought the layout was the best. And I do like that they really, they put in a lot of call-outs telling you what to shoot for and stuff, so you don't have to stare at the screen the whole time. Overall, because this was the first time I played the Xbox One version, I'll say it played really smooth. I didn't see lag with any of the ball stuff. But versus the PC version, I ran into a lot more stuck ball situations where the game would get hung up. Like even in like an out lane, like go down to the left or right out lane, the ball would get stuck there. It's weird. So I'd have to do the call attendant or just restart the game, restart the table. So that was a little weird. But otherwise it played pretty similar to the PC version. It just seemed a little more, I had more ball hang, definitely have had more ball hangups than I have on the PC version. But so anyway, that's my, uh, Zacharia pinball update. All right. That's interesting, the little hang-ups like that that happen when you change versions between... Yeah, it was, and I mean, it was new, I had a number of them, it was not, I have put, and I put several hours in on Zacharia for Xbox to try this out, so. All righty. Uh, the rest of this we're gonna go through pretty quick, because, like I said earlier, we've had, this has been quite a long episode. Mm-hmm. Uh, first off, Sony's made a bunch of PlayStation 5 announcements on June 4th, which is going to be Thursday? Yeah, Thursday. The Thursday after this comes out, they are doing their big PS5 reveal event. It's going to be just over an hour long, and it's going to showcase a lot of the games under development. In addition to that, they have announced let the developers know that any games that are being sent to Sony and all for release after the 13th of July are required to be 100% compatible with PS5 and PS4 because the majority, but not all of the top 100 PS4 games are going to be backwards compatible with the PS5. So it'll be interesting to see what and if any changes that causes. And I doubt, I'd be amazed if somebody, if a developer wasn't developing a game at this point that wasn't designed to go both ways. Yeah, I agree. I mean, it'd just be in shock. The other big thing is Blizzard has announced the cancellation of BlizzCon 2020. Not surprising. I'm not surprised. I think, in all honesty, I think Blizzard was probably relieved that they had a reason to cancel it. I think they need a breather. They do. I was just thinking, this is probably good for them, because who knows how they're going to shoot themselves in the foot this time. Right. Well, I mean, Overwatch 2 is not ready. Right. Diablo 4 is not ready. They have nothing coming out. There might be an expansion To World of Warcraft Coming out But there's like nothing new coming out I just don't think they have a lot there And with how rough of a time They've had in the last couple of Blizzcons And how poorly the last several Rounds of tournaments Have gone The ability to use An outside factor to cancel Blizzcon and get rid of the tournaments I think does nothing but help them from a PR standpoint. I agree. They are talking about doing an all-online thing sometime in 2021, which even pushes more to the, we don't actually have anything to show, and BlizzCon would just have been because BlizzCon always exists. exist, but I think for them this is a silver lining to the cloud because they get to back out of something that I think has been hurting them more the last few years than it was before. Yeah, that makes sense. That's about all I really have because we had so much pinball stuff today. I did not go real crazy on video game stuff. Mm-hmm. Well, that's okay because there's always in two weeks. Who knows what will happen? We'll have to see if any pinball news there is in two weeks. Yeah, I don't know. But until next time, people can reach out to us at collectedgamerspodcast.gmail.com or on facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. We're available on Twitch, Twitter, and Instagram as eclectic underscore gamers. And we'll see you with either pinball and or video game news in a couple weeks. So, until then, my name is Dennis. I'm Tony. Goodbye. Bye. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: e7898315-5b1c-4bd2-8fbd-c28461e60426*