# Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 22: Travis Is Seeing Things He Shouldn't **Source:** Triple Drain Pinball Podcast **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2022-09-05 **Duration:** 128m 14s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** https://zencastr.com/z/9SysPVkO --- ## Analysis The Triple Drain hosts discuss the September 1st re-release of Spooky Pinball's TNA 2.0 at $8,995 (approximately $10,000 with tax/shipping), sharing personal ownership experiences and analyzing community reception. They examine the significant price increase from the original ~$6,000 launch price, contextualize secondary market pricing ($8,500-$9,500 for used originals), and note that the game sold 100+ units in the first 2-4 minutes despite mixed community sentiment about the premium pricing. The hosts emphasize that TNA's success depends on connecting with players who value its co-op gameplay and immersive audio/light show design rather than broad market appeal. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] TNA 2.0 was announced with only 2-3 days notice via Facebook post before September 1st sale — _Joel recalls: 'it was like a random Facebook post or a random post, I think it was on Monday or Tuesday, that said, hey, TNA 2.0 is coming out'_ - [HIGH] TNA 2.0 sold over 100 units in the first 2-4 minutes of availability — _Joel: 'Spooky Luke on Pinside posted, we sold over 100 in the first two minutes. It was either two minutes or four minutes.'_ - [HIGH] Original used TNAs are currently selling for $8,500-$9,500 on the secondary market — _Travis: 'there's original TNAs right now going for between $8,500 and $9,500 prior to this 2.0'_ - [HIGH] TNA 2.0 price represents a ~$3,000 increase from the original 2019 launch price of ~$6,000 — _Travis: 'I think when it first came out it was about six grand so three three thousand dollar difference'_ - [HIGH] TNA 2.0 includes manufacturer upgrades (lit drop targets, shoot-again timer mods) previously available only as aftermarket modifications — _Joel: 'lit drop targets... he, later on, made a mod... he actually coded in extra lighting... those now come standard with this re-release'_ - [HIGH] Pinside estimates TNA value at $5,830-$6,770 based on historical sales data, significantly lower than current secondary market pricing — _Travis: 'The estimated value on Pennside right now is $5830 up to $6,770'_ - [MEDIUM] Spooky Luke stated they plan to manufacture up to 250 TNA 2.0 units within potentially six months — _Travis: 'They have plans of making, what is it, like 250 TNAs?... it's like 40 a week, or at least that's how they got it... it's a six-month that they're looking at'_ - [HIGH] Community sentiment on Pinside showed significant pushback at $8,995 price point with many commenting 'I'm out' — _Joel: 'people were like, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out, it really surprised me'_ - [HIGH] Scott Denise (TNA designer) provides direct customer support via Pinside TNA forum for hardware and software issues — _Joel: 'if you own a TNA and you have any issue, hardware or software, all you have to do is post on the TNA forum on pin side. And like Scott Denise, he will answer the question'_ - [HIGH] Used fully-modded TNA was listed for sale at $7,950-$8,000, just under $2,000 cheaper than new TNA 2.0 — _Joel: 'he had it posted at a little less than $8,000... it's basically a $2,000 difference between a fully modded out, used one and a brand new one'_ ### Notable Quotes > "TNA is absolutely the best game I've ever had to play with people. It is so much fun to play between co-op mode. It's easy to explain. The music is easy for anybody to get into." > — **Joel**, ~5:30 > _Encapsulates TNA's core appeal to casual/group players, explaining its enduring popularity despite lacking complex rules or licensed IP_ > "When value exceeds price, buyers will give you money. And that's the thing. Any of these companies that are running their business, it boils down to the utility of the end consumer." > — **Travis**, ~32:00 > _Key business principle explaining why TNA 2.0 pricing strategy doesn't require universal approval—only sufficient buyer segments willing to pay_ > "We sold over 100 in the first two minutes. It was either two minutes or four minutes." > — **Joel (reporting Spooky Luke's Pinside post)**, ~44:00 > _Demonstrates immediate strong demand despite pricing concerns, validates pre-order model effectiveness_ > "I mean, the pinball community, and I keep telling people this, it's a lot bigger than what people realize. It's so much bigger than just pin side or just content that people see." > — **Travis**, ~29:30 > _Explains why forum negativity doesn't necessarily translate to sales; hidden market segments include casual/new players indifferent to enthusiast criticism_ > "Every game doesn't need to be a sellout for it to be a good thing for the company or a success for the company." > — **Joel**, ~45:00 > _Contextualizes TNA 2.0's more moderate sales velocity against Spooky's previous total sell-outs; differentiates between hype-driven and sustainable business models_ > "If it was 75, you know, I was in. If it was 8,000, I was probably in. But once I posted at 9,000, like, I can't. I'm out." > — **Joel (paraphrasing Pinside thread comments)**, ~35:00 > _Identifies $8,000-$9,000 as critical price elasticity threshold where demand cliff occurs_ > "What's a new Godzilla premium? Is it $9,000, basically?... Everything is compared to that. So they're like, well, if you're going to spend $9,000, you could have a premium Godzilla." > — **Joel**, ~36:00 > _Reveals market expectation anchoring: Stern Godzilla Premium ($9k) has become reference price for all high-end games, creating perception of TNA 2.0 value disadvantage_ > "All that matters is the person that does want to buy it. And there's 250 available at first, so of course there's going to be somebody out there that wants to buy it." > — **Travis**, ~30:00 > _Dismisses enthusiast consensus negativity as irrelevant to business success; emphasizes niche market focus_ > "I made a mistake. And it's not that I didn't like Hobbit. I just, what I realized is my favorite way to play pinball is with people." > — **Joel**, ~2:30 > _Personal experience demonstrating TNA's unique co-op gameplay value and emotional pull to collectors_ > "Scott will be there for you if you own a TNA. So I, I kind of talked to him about that." > — **Joel**, ~10:00 > _Highlights Scott Denise's exceptional designer-level customer support as competitive differentiator for Spooky's boutique positioning_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | TNA (Pinball machine) | product | Spooky Pinball's 2019 original release; unlicensed sci-fi theme designed by Scott Denise; re-released September 1, 2025 at $8,995 with manufacturer upgrades and planned 250-unit production run | | Spooky Pinball | company | Manufacturer releasing TNA 2.0; known for boutique design, sellout culture, and fan-focused pre-order model | | Scott Denise | person | TNA designer/developer; responsible for all rules, code, light shows, and music; provides direct customer support on Pinside forums | | Spooky Luke | person | Spooky Pinball co-designer/technical lead; announced TNA 2.0 sales metrics on Pinside | | Travis | person | Triple Drain co-host; works for pinball distributor; streams pinball content; owns Toy Story; recently attempted TNA 2.0 purchase | | Joel | person | Triple Drain co-host; current TNA owner (3+ years); previous TNA owner; trades and collects games; streams Wednesday nights on Pinball Network | | Thomas/Tom | person | Triple Drain co-host; former TNA owner; reached Reactor 6-7 on wizard mode | | Stern Pinball | company | Major manufacturer mentioned for competitive comparison and licensing themes; hosts George Gomez and design team | | Jersey Jack Pinball | company | Manufacturer with upcoming announcements; WGN interviewed Jack Butler about unrevealed future games | | Godzilla Premium | product | Stern game; ~$9,000 MSRP; become market reference price for high-end pinball; hosts cite it as comparison benchmark | | Toy Story | product | High-end Stern game; $12,000+ price point; Travis owns one; cited as pricing comparison example | | Deadpool | product | In-demand licensed game mentioned as example of secondary market premium pricing | | Hobbit | product | Game Joel traded TNA for; Joel later regretted trade due to preferring group play experience | | Led Zeppelin Premium | product | Licensed Stern game; cited as example of new player entry point; Travis mentions 60+ year old first-time buyer | | Pinside | platform | Pinball enthusiast forum; hosts TNA 2.0 discussion, secondary market pricing data ($5,830-$6,770 estimate), and Scott Denise support threads | | Triple Drain Pinball Podcast | organization | Hosts Joel, Travis, and Thomas; streams Wednesday nights; part of Pinball Network | | Pinball Network | organization | Platform hosting Triple Drain and other pinball content | | Spooky fan club/membership | organization | Pre-order access system for Spooky releases; requires membership to purchase TNA 2.0 | | Dennis Creasel | person | Pinball personality; first to establish $9,000 Godzilla Premium as market reference price; appeared on Pinball Show | | Keith Elwin | person | Godzilla designer; known for direct customer support; contacted players to fix game issues | | George Gomez | person | Stern designer; occasionally browses Stern Pinball Enthusiast forum and provides support | | American Pinball | company | Manufacturer with Cactus Canyon re-release in development; potential 2025 announcements expected | | WGN | organization | News outlet that interviewed Jersey Jack Pinball; Jack Butler teased upcoming games within 'a few months' | | Multimorphic/P3 | company/product | Referenced as example of niche product with dedicated fan support despite enthusiast debate | | Pinball Expo | event | Annual conference; American Pinball expected to showcase new games; hosts attended previous Expos with TNA market discussions | ### Topics - **Primary:** TNA 2.0 pricing strategy and market reception, Secondary market valuation vs. new retail pricing, Community sentiment on Pinside regarding TNA 2.0 value proposition, Co-op gameplay and casual player appeal vs. deep ruleset/complexity - **Secondary:** Scott Denise's customer support model and designer pride, Spooky's pre-order/fan club business model and sellout strategy, Market anchoring: Godzilla Premium as reference price benchmark, Niche market dynamics: enthusiast opinion vs. actual buyer behavior ### Sentiment **Mixed** (0.45) — Hosts express strong personal affection for TNA (Joel particularly enthusiastic) and respect for Scott Denise's design/support, but acknowledge legitimate community concerns about $8,995 pricing creating value perception problem. Pragmatic acceptance that pricing didn't prevent sales success (100+ units in 2-4 min) tempers critical tone. Travis provides business-focused perspective normalizing price increase based on secondary market data and cash flow benefits. No host expresses intention to purchase TNA 2.0 despite loving the game—price creates barrier even for core believers. ### Signals - **[business_signal]** Spooky's TNA 2.0 did not achieve complete sellout (unlike previous releases); no additional sales announcements after initial 100+ in 2-4 minutes; represents different sales velocity pattern (confidence: high) — Joel: 'Their last two releases, they've had everything sold out within the day... it's weird... we made a comment. We said, do you think this game will be sold out before we record at 9 o'clock at night? And I think we all said no' - **[business_signal]** TNA 2.0 pre-order generated $200,000+ positive cash flow from $2,000 non-refundable deposits (250 units × $2,000); significant financial event for Spooky despite slower sellout vs. recent releases (confidence: high) — Travis: 'you're going to infuse $200,000-plus of positive cash flow into your business. And, I mean, that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned' - **[community_signal]** Scott Denise provides exceptional direct designer support via Pinside TNA forum for hardware/software issues; cited as unheard-of level of designer engagement compared to industry norm (confidence: high) — Joel: 'Scott will be there for you if you own a TNA... it's like, that's unheard of that a game designer is ready' - **[competitive_signal]** Godzilla Premium (~$9,000) has become market reference anchor price; all high-end pinball games now compared against it; creates perception of TNA 2.0 value disadvantage despite similar pricing (confidence: high) — Joel: 'everything is now compared to a Godzilla premium... Everything is compared to that. So they're like, well, if you're going to spend $9,000, you could have a premium Godzilla' - **[market_signal]** Pinside estimated secondary market value of TNA ($5,830-$6,770) significantly lags actual transaction prices ($8,500-$9,500); pricing database reflects pre-COVID/post-COVID market distortion (confidence: high) — Travis: 'The estimated value on Pennside right now is $5830 up to $6,770... But some people in their head are thinking, like, but Pinside, that's all sales. So it's ignoring COVID and whatnot' - **[market_signal]** Secondary market TNA prices ($8,500-$9,500 used) have compressed the new product advantage; fully-modded used unit listed at ~$8,000 undercuts new 2.0 by $1,000-$2,000 (confidence: high) — Travis: 'there's original TNAs right now going for between $8,500 and $9,500 prior to this 2.0'; hosts discuss used listing at 'a little less than $8,000' - **[community_signal]** Scott Denise (TNA designer) maintains complete creative control over all systems (rules, code, light shows, music) as solo designer; takes pride in post-release support and continuous improvement (mod integration) (confidence: high) — Joel: 'He designed the game. He designed all the rules, all the code, all the light shows, all the music. He did all of it.' - **[market_signal]** $8,995 TNA 2.0 price represents ~$3,000 increase from 2019 original (~$6,000), approaching $10k with tax/shipping; community expressed significant resistance with 'I'm out' sentiments on Pinside (confidence: high) — Joel: 'it just, yeah, to me it just seems high'; Travis documents multiple Pinside threads with community pushback at price point - **[announcement]** TNA 2.0 officially launched September 1, 2025 at $8,995; sold 100+ units in first 2-4 minutes; announced only 2-3 days in advance via Facebook (confidence: high) — Joel: 'it was like a random Facebook post or a random post, I think it was on Monday or Tuesday... Spooky Luke on Pinside posted, we sold over 100 in the first two minutes' - **[product_strategy]** TNA 2.0 integrates previously aftermarket modifications as standard features: lit drop targets (originally solid black), enhanced ball-save timer with additional LEDs (confidence: high) — Joel: 'lit drop targets. The original drop targets were solid black. He, later on, made a mod... he actually coded in extra lighting... those now come standard with this re-release' - **[rumor_hype]** Jersey Jack Pinball teased upcoming game announcements within 'a few months' via WGN news interview; Jack Butler stated journalists should 'come back in a few months' (confidence: medium) — Travis: 'it was WGN... they actually interviewed – they went to Jersey Jack and did some stuff. And right at the end, Jack made a comment of, hey, you should come back in a few months and we'll show you some stuff' - **[sentiment_shift]** Community perception of TNA value has shifted downward from 2019 (~$6,000 perceived as fair) to 2025 ($8,995 viewed as overpriced); secondary market compression eliminated new product premium (confidence: high) — Joel: 'I think when it first came out it was about six grand so three three thousand dollar difference. And, yeah, I mean, it's a different time, though'; extensive Pinside thread documenting 'I'm out' sentiment --- ## Transcript The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. All right, Thomas. Yes. Thomas, we're going to go formal. Yeah. Why not? Thomas, here we go. Yes. Tom, what's your mail name? I'm not saying that on a podcast. Okay. Well, Tom, are you ready? Yes. Uh, Travis, you ready? That's not my name. Do you have a middle name? Do they? Yes. Why wouldn't I have a middle name? I don't know. I just. Do you have a middle name? McLovin. All right. What's your middle name? It's Robert. That's why it's Joel Bob. Everything's Joel Bob. Yep. Oh, that makes sense. All right. Big Papa. Are you ready? Thank you, Joel Bob. No. All right. All right. Start strong. Here we go. We, we, we're three guys who like the junk in the hall. So we stand up with a glad heart day. We're a joy that's got the junk in the hall. And we call ourselves Triple Drake, Triple Drake, Triple Drake. We're Triple, Triple Drake. Wonderful, wonderful. You know, to be honest, we actually play that. We don't insert the song afterwards. We actually play it and listen to it, and it's kind of a good, I don't know, kind of a pump-up. I don't know. It kind of wakes me up. Our intro is legit. You can feel a little tingly inside. It is the best intro in all of pinball podcasting. All the tingles. In probably all of podcasting, if I'm being honest. So, Travis, I see you're drinking a Mountain Dew, so you're ready to go. No grounds for the night. You already screwed it up, Joel Bob. Oh, big. I'm not calling you Big Papa all night. What do you mean? You're going to do that again? Yeah, I appeased you once. So, Big Papa, you're drinking some Mountain Dew. I'll try to get Monica to call me that later tonight and see what happens. Yeah, no. And then, Tom, what are you drinking, water? I'm drinking ice-cold water. Ice-cold water. Okay. So, yeah, we're pumped. We're all amped up, ready to go. Tonight should be a good time. And sorry for the delay. Normally we try to get one out, I don't know, every two, three weeks. We were waiting on a reveal. We were hoping Stern may have dropped something, and we kind of held out hope. We're like, you know, if we do it now, they're going to reveal something in a few days, and then we're going to look like idiots. So we waited and waited and waited, and we're like, all right, well, apparently it's not happening. And I don't know, Travis, I mean, Travis, he works for a distributor now. If only we had somebody that worked in the pinball industry. Yeah, and you're like, dude, I know nothing. I know nothing. All I can do is look at the schedule, and if I look at the schedule, the openings are not right now so it's probably going to be a little while it's like okay well do you think by the end of 2022 we'll hear something yes i definitely think we will have another we'll have at least one stern game between now and at the end of the year let's hope do you think we'll have another jersey jack game um well that's a good point uh there was a video of it was some i don't i can't credit the video i don't know who it was but it was It was WGN, wasn't it? Oh, it was like a news – yeah, it was like a news site. And they actually interviewed – they went to Jersey Jack and did some stuff. And right at the end, Jack made a comment of, hey, you should come back in a few months and we'll show you some stuff. So something's happening in a few months, but I don't know. End of the year would be pretty ambitious for them. I mean, two in one year would be kind of crazy. Do you think American Pinball will? I think there's a chance, yeah. I mean, they've been hinting at a new game for a while, but, you know, there's been delays or not delays. Like, this Cactus Canyon's taking a long time, but it would be great if they had something to show at Expo come October. Do you think Spooky Pinball is going to come out with something before the end of the year? Well, obviously today, and we're going to talk about it later. Oh, yeah, there you go. Look at that. Yeah. Hey, Travis, I got the transitions. It's not even in our notes. It is in our notes. You're just late, and so you can't see the notes. Let's just go ahead and just get into this. We're not even five minutes in. I kind of end here, and you two yo-yos are talking like we all know what's happening, and all I have is email. That's all I have. The pre-production meeting where we type out all of, I don't know, seven words, happens at 9 o'clock when we start. So when you come rolling in at 9, 10, you know, you just get around to it now. People that need to know know. People that need to know, yes. It's fine. Tom and I have this taken care of. Thank you, guys. So you were saying, do I think spooky? I don't know. They have plans of making, what is it, like 250 TNAs? And I think, have they said how many? It's like 40 a week, or at least that's how they got it. I could have swore I read, it was either an email or a post somewhere that said that it's a six-month that they're looking at. Make it to your 50, but they could possibly make it inside of six months. I thought that's what I read. Well, there's less than six months before the end of the year. So that's kind of, I don't know. It depends on how many actually end up selling. So maybe, maybe would be an answer. I mean, they did pretty well today. They reached over 100, right? And we were talking about that. As long as they get to 100, to us, that's a success. So, Tom, I know you can look at the list of topics, and you can see that TNA is near the bottom of the list, But it's very clear that Travis wants to talk about TNA right now. You know what? If you guys would put that on here, we're talking, like, we lead off talking about what games we think are going to come out. And there is one manufacturer and one company today that released a game today. Okay. I thought that's where you guys were taking it. I mean, technically it was released a long time ago. Yeah. We'll talk about it. Okay. All right. The remastered version of TNA came out today. Roll right into TNA. So for us to dive into TNA, it means I need to skip over. Before we do, Joel, and I'll stop interrupting you, I just want to be clear. Scott Danesi, I know you're out there listening. I'm the one that wanted to talk about TNA up front. Not Joel Bob, not Thomas. Okay. Me. I wanted to talk about TNA at the beginning. I didn't even need show notes to start talking about it. Go ahead, Joel Bob. I'll be quiet. Well, we'll just, you know, fly through the intro of, you know, in my head, the plan for the intro was to thank you for the snuggie or the comfy because my wife wears it all the time. You don't even know what I gave you. I'm not the one wearing it. We literally, it stays in the theater room down here. My wife wears it all the time. I forgot. My fault. Try again. There we go. Thank you. Okay. I believe the effort was there. I'm sorry. All right. So thank you for that. But we'll roll right by intro. So here we go. TNA. TNA. fantastic game i am an owner of tna i've owned it twice i owned it it was my only game for a little while i played the heck out of it i thought to myself this game's great my friends and family was an awesome group game we loved playing it but in my mind i was like if i only can have one game maybe i need a game with more depth or more options or code to explore so i sold it kind of sold such traded it for a hobbit so i went in a completely different direction and it wasn't two weeks after I made that trade that I was like, I made a mistake. And it's not that I didn't like Hobbit. I just, what I realized is my favorite way to play pinball is with people. And TNA is absolutely the best game I've ever had to play with people. It is so much fun to play between co-op mode. It's easy to explain. The music is easy for anybody to get into. It's just an amazing group game. So in the back of my mind, I was like, someday I've got to get that game back. and luckily I made some trades happen and down the road I actually had an opportunity to get that exact TNA back so I've been a TNA owner for like three or more years I'm I'm a huge fan of TNA so when I heard that they were re-releasing TNA some people were like well well maybe that'll devalue your game I don't care I have no intention of selling this game to me I'm glad there are now more people in the world that will be that will have a chance to have a TNA that's my personal opinion of TNA. Tom, you've had TNA. You've owned TNA. So what are your overall opinions of the game? I liked it. I mean, it was fun. Like you said, it's a good for co-op. That's enjoyable. It's also a good competition game. Yeah. And if you... Black Stealing's awesome. Yeah. Did you ever have a chance to beat it? Like, did you ever get through all nine reactors? No, I think I got up to like six or seven. Nice. And then I gave up, and I'm like, I'm selling this game. There are definitely people that can roll it consistently, and it's just like, not roll it, but they just, what's cool is when you destroy Reactor 9, it ends. The game dies. The flippers, everything, it's over. Making games harder, people. Geez. Yeah, there are some people that can just do it all over the place. Travis, this has never been in your collection, right? Have you ever owned a TNA? I nearly did a couple of years ago. I nearly bought Carl's. I don't know if he even realized it was me talking to him, but here's a few years ago. Well, and what are your thoughts? I mean, I really enjoy the game. I mean, it's a game that I wish was in my collection, and I was semi-tempted to get one now. But, I mean, it's just not in the cards for me now because I'm literally out of room. I don't even have – Because you have Toy Story. Yeah, yeah, obviously. So I don't have any room more in my bank account or in my basement anymore. But no, I personally think it's a fun game. I enjoy playing it. I enjoy playing it on location. As long as it's working, I mean, that's the one thing that I notice that some of the NAs have a hard time with is sometimes the target's resetting and sometimes the flipper's getting a little bit weak. But I think really in all reality is because it probably gets a lot of play in certain areas depending on where it's at. So, but I enjoyed the game overall. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about my personal TNA is it was routed twice at two different locations. So the guy originally bought it from, I got it from a bar. And that was because me and a buddy, he had come from out of town. We went there as a pin bar. He's not a pinball guy, but we played all the machines that were there, an amazing collection. And the one game he wanted to play more than once was TNA. And it's because of co-op mode, being able to walk through and do it together. And that really opened my eyes of like, I may need to own this game. So I had a chance to buy that one. Then the guy I sold it to actually routed games. So he routed it at a bowling alley, and he sold it back to me because it wasn't doing well. So at the bar where it was like a pin location, they did league, they did different tournaments, TNA got a lot of play. But at a bowling alley, he's like, it gets no play. Nobody knows what it is. That's understandable, too, since it's not a licensed game. You know, but I would say that it's probably one of the top games in recent memory that really blends in just the immersive environment for the game. And that's entirely based off sound and the light show alone at the same time going off. I really like how those two things gel together and create those, quote unquote, pinball moments when you're destroying a reactor. So, I mean, and plus the music kicks up and then there's different types of music with the soundtrack. I mean, for me, that's really what draws me in combined with the fast gameplay. I think those things really gel very well together. A hundred percent. I actually stream this. So I stream every Wednesday night on the pinball network. And last night you can see the stream on YouTube. I actually stream this game. And every time I stream it, I like fall in love with it again. And it's just because of that overall immersion, the sound it's like adrenaline, you know, like pumping. It's so simple. You don't have to overthink it. You don't have to over strategize. you just have to play safe, be smart with your shots. It's fair, but yet yeah, destroying reactors is such a gratifying feeling. And, um, I love streaming it because I do direct audio capture and like people even in the chat are like, man, this music's great. Or man, this music's addicting, which is a huge compliment to Scott's and easy. I mean, he, he designed the game. He designed all the rules, all the code, all the light shows, all the music. He did all of it. And it's just, I love the game, but it's a weird thing because I've been like a huge promoter of this game for a long time. So when I heard they're doing another run in the back of my mind, I'm like, I have a three year old routed TNA. This is arguably maybe my favorite game. Would I consider upgrading? Would I consider buying a brand new one? Especially when they heard that when you hear that they're adding little things and it's not they're not adding. There's nothing new in the game that I don't have. So, like, lit drop targets. The original drop targets were solid black. He, later on, made a mod where you could put in a clear drop target, and then he actually coded in extra lighting, like, patterns, so you'd have to get additional LEDs, wire them into your game. So, like, I already added that. And then the shoot again or the ball save timer, he designed a different one with Rick and Morty that had two extra lights, so he coded that into TNA so you could swap that out. So there's just a few little things, a few little mods that I've already added to this game, and those now come standard with this re-release. So the more that I heard about this re-release, the more that I'm like, okay, is it really going to be that much different than the game I own? And the end is no, it's not, because I've already done all those upgrades. But I still in my head was like, depending on the cost, I might still upgrade. I might still sell my game if I lose $1,000 and wait and buy a brand new one just because I love this game. And then they revealed the price, the price of $9,000. It was $8,995. It's basically $9,000 plus tax plus shipping. So depending on where you're at, I'm not a shipping expert, but I'm guessing that's anywhere from like maybe Travis knows more than I do, but like $200 to $500, maybe more, maybe less. So if you're at $9,000, now you're at $9,500 plus tax. I mean, you're looking at like a $10,000 game. and that to be honest blew me away like i was not expecting that so i don't know if you guys have thoughts when when the price came out i don't know what did you guys think yeah i mean i think when it first came out it was about six grand so three three thousand dollar difference. And, yeah, I mean, it's a different time, though. So, I guess inflation and all that. But it just, yeah, to me it just seems high. I think I sold mine for a little, I think I sold mine for about $7,000. Yeah. And right now, well, what's funny is, so, this game, the announcement, right? This is what Spooky does. They want you to be part of the fan club, and then they kind of announce or they tease the game. They already knew. We already knew TNA was coming out. We just didn't know when. So it's not like there was a mystery of what's the game going to be, what's it going to look like. They skipped all that. The last two releases they've shown pictures of the underside of the play field, which is kind of cool. They skipped all that. But it was like a random Facebook post or a random post, I think it was on Monday or Tuesday, that said, hey, TNA 2.0 is coming out. we're games go on sale September 1st hope you're a fan of the fan club so it's all of a sudden it's like whoa we have like two days two or three days to become a member and prepare for this there was no bill that was just like here it is it's happening right now and um so it's funny is there's a guy that actually watches me stream a decent bit he reached out to me on Facebook and was like I know you love TNA I love TNA but I don't own one just what are your thoughts of owning it. And his biggest worry was build quality, which I thought was funny because I, I actually haven't had any issues with my game. No, like nothing that I couldn't fix on my own. And, and another credit to Scott Danesi, if you, if you own a TNA and you have any issue, hardware or software, all you have to do is post on the TNA forum on pin side. And like Scott Danesi, he will answer the question. So he is like the best support person I've ever had. It kind of reminds me of Dennis Creasel recently on the pinball show, made a comment on one of my streams and Keith Elwin happened to be watching it. And Keith Elwin, the designer of Godzilla, reached out to Dennis directly and said, send me a video. And then Keith fixed the problem. It's like, that's unheard of that a game designer is ready. Like George Gomez kind of browses Stern Pinball Enthusiast that and sometimes he steps in. So I just think that's huge when designers take like pride in their games. But Scott will, Scott will be there for you if you if you own a TNA. So I, I kind of talked to him about that. And, um, what is weird though, is the day it was announced that they're making a 2.0 version, I'm part of an arcade group here in Indiana. And in that Facebook group, there was a guy that posted his TNA for sale. And he just said, here's my fully modded out TNA. Feel free to buy it now and save yourself a little money instead of buying the re the re-release. And he had it, he had it posted at a little less than $8,000. So that is, And he had like all the mods in it. So it's like, well, what do you want? Do you want a slightly used one or used one at a little less than eight? Or do you want a brand new one at 10? Did he end up selling that pretty quick? Well, that's what's funny is it was posted. A day later is when I had this conversation with the guy that watches me stream. And I just said, hey, where are you located? Turns out he's in Indiana, which I thought was crazy. So I said, hey, I'm going to hook you up with this guy. If you want to get one brand new, go for it. Get in line Thursday morning. Hope you get one. but if you want to save a little bit of money, reach out to this guy and pick his brain. And he did, he ended up. So like I arranged that. So sorry, Scott, you probably missed out on a little bit of commission, but I like that. It's a weird to me that it was a two, it's basically a $2,000 difference between a fully modded out, used one and a brand new one. So if people are ready to pull the trigger at eight grand, I don't know. It's just reading the forums and stuff. And people had a, people had a number in their mind, right? Like I'm in, if it's $7,500. I don't know. Did you guys have a number when it was announced? If I had to guess, it should be. I knew it was coming, but I didn't hear no of the announcement until I heard it from you guys, honestly. Oh, yeah. I just haven't been paying attention. Here's the reality, the harsh reality that a lot of people don't realize, it seems, just based off the feedback I'm seeing on Pennside and some of the conversations I've had already. there's original TNAs right now going for between $8,500 and $9,500 prior to this 2.0. A lot of people don't realize that. So when they see the $8,995, right, that's a brand-new game, we're talking about second or third owners of this game, and that's the prices that people are paying right now. And all that people really think, like, for whatever reason, people think that it's still going for between $7,000 and $7,500. I've heard that. Some people say that. And I've heard some people say, well, around 8,000. Yeah, some of them do go for around 8,000, but I know for a fact that some of them have gone for right at 9. And we're talking about used games. And we're talking about games. And this is with the butter cabinet, though. It's plain to say it is with the butter cabinet. So the one right now that's listed, it's $89.95. It doesn't come with the butter cabinet, but it still has a lot of other extras with it, like shaker kit. what is it, the black powder coat. I think that they powder coat the coin door box now. I think for them that's like a $250 upgrade or something like that, according to their store. And, I mean, they have what, the custom laser cut side rails, and I forget what else there is to it. But, I mean, that being said, it doesn't surprise me that the price is where it's at. I think that just being able to have $2,000 of a non-refundable deposit up front, I mean, you're going to infuse $200,000-plus of positive cash flow into your business. And, I mean, that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. But, you know, the price doesn't surprise me based off what I know that these games are going for, third-party market. So I don't know what it says on Pennside. I'd be curious to see. The estimated value on Pennside right now is $5830 up to $6,770. So I think some people in their head are thinking, like, but Pinside, that's all sales. So it's ignoring COVID and whatnot. Because over COVID, it was crazy high. Let's go ahead and just look through it the past month or the past, we'll just say the past four months. It would not shock me at all. Or even this year, this year total, it would not shock me at all if you see some that went for $8,500 plus. And people just don't realize it. I know over COVID, like, that was a conversation I remember having at Expo last year. You know, we're at Expo. We're still wearing masks. The cost of everything was skyrocketed. And I remember thinking, like, I think I could sell my TNA right now for, like, over $9,000 or $10,000, you know. And so if by the time TNA 2.0 comes out, like, there's no way it's going to be a $10,000 pin. Like, if there's a way that I could sell this and not have it for a year and buy a brand-new one for $1,000 or less or something, like, that sounds like a steal. And I decided not to. I'm glad I did because that's not how it worked. Did you pull that up, Travis? Yeah. Yeah, I'm actually, so I'm looking at it right now. Yep. And, I mean, there's one that's listed. I'm not going to list the names, but there's one back in March that was listed as sold at 9,000. Okay. So there's one right there. There's another one, of course, that was listed at 10,000, not sold. What's the 7,300? That one was sold. The 7,500 OVO, that was sold 8,000. Do you think that people have this mentality where, I mean, a lot of new in box games, because if it's a highly, you know, a high, like a pin that's in demand, so a Deadpool, a Godzilla, something that you can't find, those are going over new in box prices. So maybe people have a mentality of like new in box should actually be cheaper than what the sale market is because you're going to have to wait or you can't buy it right now. I don't know, but there was threads. I mean, I was looking at threads and people were like, I sold games for this. I bought a Spooky membership. I've been waiting for this for months. If it was 75, you know, I was in. If it was 8,000, I was probably in. But once I posted at 9,000, like, I can't. I'm out. And to see how many people were like, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out, it really surprised me. It's one of those, like, well, why is that? And what's funny is the main comparison they always come back to, and I have to give Dennis Creasel a shout out because he's the first person I heard that did it. But I feel like industry-wide, everything is now compared to a Godzilla premium. So people in their head, what's a new Godzilla premium? Is it $9,000, basically? It's supposed to be MSRP, but the reality is that they're going for way more than that. I mean, it's just that game, a premium Godzilla is basically identical to an LE anything else. I mean, just for the sheer gameplay alone. I mean, in all reality, it is. But everything is compared to that. So they're like, well, if you're going to spend $9,000, you could have a premium Godzilla. I mean, people were doing the same thing with Toy Story. Why would you spend $12,000 on a Toy Story when you can spend $9,000 on a Godzilla premium? I mean, that goes back to, and we've talked about this too, Joel, off the podcast, that I think Tom saw this quote that I sent you guys. And it's the value quote, right? It's when value exceeds price, buyers will give you money. And that's the thing. Any of these companies that are running their business, it boils down to the utility of the end consumer. It doesn't matter if somebody's on a keyboard typing on a message board just saying, hey, I'm not going to buy this. All that matters is the person that does want to buy it. And there's 250 available at first, so of course there's going to be somebody out there that wants to buy it. I mean, the pinball community, and I keep telling people this, it's a lot bigger than what people realize. It's so much bigger than just pin side or just content that people see. I mean, there's just like today, for instance, we had somebody that came in to look at a Led Zeppelin premium, right? 60 plus years old. It's their very first game. Yeah. You know, there's people entering the industry all the time or entering the hobby all the time. And as soon as they enter the hobby, every single theme, every single game is brand new to them because it's the first time they've seen it. You know, it's just a lot of us were just so far in the weeds that we can't see through it. You know what I'm saying? So it's just that's just the reality of it when you're dealing with something like this. I mean, yeah, there might be 10 people that says, oh, you know, I don't want this game. But then there's going to be that one person that does want it. Yeah. You know, I mean, the same thing we've we kind of all discovered that when we talked about. like Multimorphic and P3 a few months ago or last year. There was a lot of people that came out and said, hey, we really like this product. Here's why we enjoy it. And at the end of the day, that's really what matters for each individual business. You don't have to hit a home run for the entire industry. All you got to do is hit a home run for the people that support you. And that's what Spooky's done very well. That's why they've been able to sell out the games that they've sold out up until this point. The people that are fans of the company are fans of the company, and they're willing to buy what comes out. But this is weird, though, because most of those fans of Spooky probably already own or have owned TNA. And that's what we were talking about before. And then you also talk about theme. You know, people that are new to pinball, they come in with these themes in their head, whether they love certain rock bands or certain movies. TNA is unlicensed. So my view of TNA is it's been out long enough that the 550 that were originally made have ended up basically in collectors' hands now that love the game. Like, not many of them go up for sale because they've moved around enough that they're now kind of finally with people that don't want to get rid of them. Just keep in mind, though, based off what you said a little bit earlier when you got rid of the game and then you're like, wait, I want it back. Yeah. There's probably more people out there than what we realize that have done the same thing and haven't been able to get the game back, and here's their chance. It's their second chance to get a new in-box game. But if Tom's saying he sold his in the $6,000 range or something, I don't remember. $7,000. So $7,000 range. If you're at $7,000, like, okay, here's my chance to get it back. Well, it's like, well, do you want to get it back for $3,000 more? At that point, it goes back to the quote. No, that's the answer to him. When the value exceeds it, that's when people will buy it. That's the reality of business. Well, it is September 1st that we're recording this, and this morning we made a comment. We said, do you think this game will be sold out before we record at 9 o'clock at night? And I think we all said no. And then what was surprising was Spooky Luke on Pinside posted, we sold over 100 in the first two minutes. It was either two minutes or four minutes. So there were clearly people lined up, but that's the last announcement I've seen. So as far as I know, it's not sold out. I would have guessed there would have been another announcement of, like, we've hit 150 or we've hit 200 or there's only 50 left. Nothing, none of that. So it seems like. I just added one to my cart. So as of right now, what, like 840 at night central time, not sold out. But it's okay. It's okay. Like, every game doesn't need to be a sellout for it to be a good thing for the company or a success for the company. Yeah. I think, I mean, I still think, you know, Scott Danesi should be very proud of this game. I mean, even selling 100 within two minutes, there's clearly demand. There were people, there's 550 happy people on this planet that already own the game, and it looks like there was 100 more that were lined up waiting and wanting it. So that's awesome. But it is, I mean, this is something new for Spooky. Their last two releases, they've had everything sold out within the day. So, you know, they're back to like, okay, let's see. Let's wait and see. But I don't know. It's weird. I mean, I know my personal feelings of TNA, and it's been interesting reading the forums because everybody's comparing it to other games. They're like, there's no ramps. There's no mechs. There's no this. And it's like, these are the same arguments people have been making with TNA for years. It really just comes down to, have you played it, and does it connect with you? because this is one of my favorite games, and I understand it doesn't have ramps or huge mechs or anything, but all the other things hits me perfectly. I have a solution for all the listeners out there that have that complaint about TNA. If you want a game that has ramps, go play a game that has ramps. Yeah, yeah. That's an easy fix, right? It is. And then if you want to play a game without ramps, guess what you do then, Tom? You play TNA. You play TNA. There you go. What about Beatles? Well, yeah. Yeah, okay. Any game. We'll just go quote, unquote, any street-level game. Like Hoops or something like that. Harlem Globetrotters. Harlem Globetrotters, but not Paragon. F that game. Never Paragon. What's interesting is of all the games that I've owned, there were two games that actually got a lot of play, and it was Taxi, and then before that was 8-Ball Deluxe. So there is an appeal to older games for novice players because they're a lot easier to understand. It's not so much going on. So that's why I love TNA because in my collection I feel like I lean towards modern games, but yet I still feel like TNA brings kind of an older vibe to my collection without it actually being a really old game. It's simple. It's got all the features of an older game with the layout and whatnot and the ease of rules, But yet in ridiculous light show, awesome music, all the modern, you know, appeal to that. I thought for sure you're about to go, it's retro. I thought you were going down. No, which it's weird to me because of how much I love TNA, it's really made me wonder, like, would I love Fathom? You know, people love the Fathom layout. What do you mean, would you love Fathom? Have you never played Fathom before? I have played, no. I've never had a chance to play a Fathom. Oh, they're super expensive, and none of the bars around me have them. You've never played a Fathom? I've never had a chance to play a Fathom. But the fact that Marty now has an old-school layout. Thomas, can you believe we podcast with this guy? He's never even played Fathom. I barely passed the David Fick test in five years. I haven't played yet. How many flippers does Fathom have, Joel? Three. Okay. We got that one right at least. Yeah. I had to think about it for a second, though. I was like three popped in my head, and I'm like, I'm going to say this with confidence, so I actually maybe get some credit, or I'm going to look real dumb. You mean Thomas and I could have been like, no, it's not three, and you would have believed it? I like that you're still calling him Thomas. I should call you Mr. Graff, just out of respect. Oh, God. No, you call Elwynn Mr. Elwynn. Okay, okay, okay. No to me it like when I actually saw the when Haggis did their stream of it it like wow look at that light show Look at the music that Marty put into this This is an older game with really cool modern features and it makes me wonder, like, maybe that would be a game that I'd really get into. I don't know. I need to try one. I need to play it. But it's a decent – do you guys have anything else to say about TNA? No. I think if you want a TNA, get one. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a lot to say about TNA, but, you know, we're good. We're good on this. I assume you're not talking about the game. No, I am talking about the game. I love the game. What do you think I'm talking about? TNA, man. You know, you'll have to. Oh, like actual TNA? Yeah. Oh. No, it wasn't, but now you've got me thinking about that now. We can talk about that, too, if you want to. Yeah, yeah. So, great game. Wonderful game. Like I said, I streamed it the other night. Check it out on Pinball Network on YouTube if you want to see somebody that's way too excited. I love playing that game, and it's easy for me to explain it because I literally explain how to play it with all my friends and family when they come over. We play co-op. It's an amazing game. So if you're on the edge or whatever, I love the game. I love the game, and I'm excited that there are more people that are going to have a chance to own it. Now, I was talking about sound package, and that's going to lead me to our next topic, which I did type in. Maybe you've seen it. But I want to talk about Toy Story 4. Toy Story 4, I know we've talked about this multiple times over the last few episodes, but I will tell you, Toy Story 4 is gone. I don't have it anymore. Zach picked it up. So. What? Travis found a sound clip. Okay, yeah. So. It wasn't me. Oh, you said what though first. So I thought you were putting, well done. Good acting there. I like how you just announced it too. Because he's genuinely surprised at that noise. So, Zach reaches out to me. This is Zach at Flip N Out Pinball. He let me borrow the game to stream it. And he reached out to me on Monday and said, hey, I actually am heading up your way. I need to pick up that game tomorrow. I was like, okay, no worries. I had streamed the game the week before, and the week before I was two shots away from qualifying all seven tasks. Two shots away, and all I had left was the Bo Peep Loops. The Bo Peep Loops, we've talked about this before. There are two ways to qualify Bo Peep Loops. One is you have to hit the upper loop three times in a row, three consecutive shots. Boom, boom, boom. I don't know if it's just my game. That's the problem. Easy, Joel. My game, I think the entire time I owned it, I may have had like three opportunities to do that. And that's just because my first shot would hit clean. My second shot, I could hit it, but always the second shot, it would just die. It would die and roll into the pot. You're right. It's totally the game's fault. It was. What? What? Oh, you cut out there. Oh, I did. Oh, sorry. Sorry. It's just I was just I was just blaming it on the game. And I guess the pinball gods got mad at me. Hey, so Carl D'Python Anghelo, the one, the only he had the same issue with his team with his Toy Story. Oh, yeah. I could really tell he had the same issue with 500 million points. He really had a really difficult time. Okay, you reach out to Carl. He said he goes, I almost removed the upper gate up there because it was slowing the ball down so much. So I do think, I am super curious to try another Toy Story to see if it has that issue. But that's one way to qualify Bo Peep Loops. The other way to qualify it is you have to use the wheel. The wheel is a random reward, and you can qualify Super Loops. So you basically, to spin the wheel, you have to hit the captain ball, and it'll spin it. It'll land on a reward. If you don't like the reward, you have to hit the captive ball again or hit the upper loop. You keep doing it until super loops is lit. Then you have to hit the upper loop without hitting the captive ball to qualify super loops. Once you've done all that, you have to then hit the upper loop 13 more times. So that was essentially the only way I could do it. What? That's a lot of loops. 13 times, 13 more times. But you've already probably hit it at least two or three other times just trying to get to the – You have to hit it once to qualify it and then just try and get to it. And so with all that said, I was two shots away. I had two Bo Peep loops left, and then all I would have had to do is hit the scoop, and I would have been in the wizard mode. So when Zach told me Monday, I was like, all right, tonight I have one night. I have one night to hit this wizard mode. If I don't get this wizard mode, Tom and Travis are going to give me so much crap. Like when we first talked about Toy Story, Mr. Travis over here, he got to that wizard mode on his fourth play, his fourth game. And I remember making a comment of, guys, do you think I'll get to the wizard mode? And Tom very quickly said, no. He said no. It was a joke. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, the joke hit deep, okay? Because in my mind, I'm like. In Joel's head, you're never going to do this, Joel. I know. I'm like, in my mind, I am going to prove him wrong. I am going to show them that I can get to this wizard mode. So I came downstairs Monday night at 10 o'clock. Joel legitimately had like one of those. So you finished the game, you did it like two times? He had like a live to win montage. You guys remember that South Park episode, make love, not Warcraft? I played that game for almost two and a half hours. And the problem is because I could not do three consecutive loops. You guys know I'm good with the upper flipper. Like I want to blame, I truly think it was a game. Did you put your metal flippers on there? Did that help you? No. So I played that game for almost two and a half hours, and it was just a grind. And that was my issue, is before that night, I really was enjoying Toy Story. I think the game shoots well. I think it's fun. I think it's accessible. The Duke Kaboom jump ramp is enjoyable every single time you hit it. There are parts of that game that I really, really enjoyed. But over the few weeks that I've been streaming it, there were multiple times that I got six out of seven things, like, qualified. It was always Bo Peep Loops. It was always that one was the one that was being the gatekeeper. And I know Travis had made a comment. He thought Forky was going to be my gatekeeper. And Forky is a three-shot combo. An eye hole. I really never had issues with Forky. Like, that is a fun achievement. I really, the pressure's on of, like, I hit it, I hit it, you know, and it's rampant. It's like, I better hit this scoop. Bam. And when you hit that scoop, I love it. There's no pressure saving that damn thing, Joel. No pressure. For me. All right, Joel. Joel, before you keep going, I got a good question for you because it just popped in my head because we're talking about loops. So I'm going to put you on the spot here because you also had a rush. Yep. And you had a toy story. Yep. Which one has the better upper loop shot? Oh. I could hit the Toy Story loop way more consistently. Which one had the better shot? That's the thing. I would say better is probably Toy Story just because I could hit it. I can hit the upper loop when I want to hit it. I just can't rip them multiple times in a row. I am so proud of him, Tom. Because he made the decision? Yeah, it only took him 20 seconds that time. He was trying to skate around it, but we got back to the question. No, my issue with the Rush upper flipper is because there's multiple things you can hit with it. So it's like trying to find. That's a huge issue. That's a bad thing. No, it makes it. It's way harder. It's way harder. That's why he loved it. Let Zeppelin Pro. Can somebody find Joel a Hobbit? Yeah. No. So like Toy Story, it's a mini flipper, and there's one shot you can do with it. So it's really easy to like dial it in because you only have one. It's just one thing. but rush it's like, oh, am I hitting this? And it's like, oh, I hit it too early, so I hit the inner loop instead of the ramp or this. You know, it's like you guys know what I'm saying. I know you, but. No. Tom, do you have that problem? You hit the shot too early and you completely missed the ramp on rush? Of course. What? It happens. Tom's a top 50 player. When do you two get that excited that you completely airmailed the ramp and you actually hit the upper loop? Apparently, you know, Travis, it's just unheard of to you that pinball's hard for some people. Yeah, people brick shots. It's a thing. No, you can brick shots, but that's what I'm saying. Like, usually if I miss the side ramp, I'm bricking it. Like, I've never, like, air-melded to where I've accidentally hit the upper loop aiming for the side ramp. I'm just trying to think about geometry on rough. It's just timing. If you're too quick. I don't know. There's two. Like, I have that on turtles. You can do the crane ramp, the crane loop, or the center ramp, and it's like. I wasn't aware, but now I am. Thank you. Yeah, but you can get too excited, and all of a sudden you're like, wait a little bit, wait a little bit. Like, the crane is loose. You sound like Tommy Boy with his precious little pet. You just get way too excited. I do, yeah. I can't play cool, calm, and collective like you, Travis. Hey, it's okay. I brick shots, too. I was just trying to figure out how you two yo-yos were getting so far ahead of the side ramp. Anyways, we're getting way off. Okay, so Toy Story. Friends and family love it. And I guess apparently you got the wizard mode final. I did. That's what I'm saying is I actually really, I know you've expressed your opinion, and it's very clear that this game is not made for, like, top-tier players. Luckily, I'm not in that tier. I'm not in that tier. It could, but are you still having fun with the game? I haven't played it in a week or four weeks. But, I mean, it's still in my game room. My family still wants it. Exactly. You know. Is your family still playing it? It's set there for a couple of weeks so far. I thought about dusting off the glass. It's still there. All right? I've still spoken with my money or Monica's money, but it's still there. So, I mean, that's fair. Toy Story, the code was there. Tom, when was the last time you played Paragon? Tom has like 80 games. Actually, I played it recently. Got him. okay yeah trust me yeah so toy story like every time i streamed it i was okay like i was kind of excited to stream it because the wizard mode i felt like it was right there it was achievable there are enjoyable parts of the game i know i've enjoyed this game more than the two of you until monday night until monday night it got to the point where i was like for me to achieve this wizard mode i have to qualify bo peeps loops early what eight played toy story i did i got I was so frustrated. I was so frustrated on that Monday night because it was just, in my mind, I was like, I have to hit this loop so many times. I've got to qualify this as soon as possible. So it's like plunge for the skill shot, hit it, cradle up, hit the cap the ball, keep hitting it until it's lit, hit my upper flipper. And in my mind, I was like, I've got to do that in ball one. If I don't do that in ball one, I got to reset. So I like tried to play for an hour straight normal. And then I was like, no, this is what I'm doing. and it was just reset after reset after reset and just hitting that loop over and over and over again. The sound of that loop is a bell. It's just a little – it's like somebody at an old antique shop opening the door in the little – The air-piercing sounds of toys. So for like two hours straight, all I heard is clarinet. You've got a friend in me. You've got your headphones on? Yes, I play with headphones on so I can hear the game. I was so – You just mute it. I've been letting you call outs in the game, but all I'm hearing is you've got a friend of mine. So I can beat the game. I need to know what to hit. Like, hit this, do this. You can't just look at the game and just say, hey, this is good. There are actual people, Joe, that play in tournaments and wear headphones and listen to music. Yeah, yeah. And they don't listen to the game. You could have done that, Joel. Should have, but guess what? I beat it, so I don't care. I'm just telling you, I got so frustrated that I was like, this, everybody's explaining this game is super easy. You know, it's an eight-year-old girl that was in the marketing campaign. Why can't you? It's just like, oh, I beat the whole game twice on my seventh play. I'm grinding on this game, just trying desperately to beat this game. And, I mean, I'm so glad I did. It just happened. But I will say, to me, though, now that it's done, it's like, okay, it's a fun game. I would step up to it and have a good time, and I understand why other people would have a good time. But I have no interest in trying to get to that wizard mode again. I do not want to grind through those loops again. So if Joe, like Joe Catch, changes the code in some way, or I play another Toy Story where that upper looper I can hit it consistently, because Zach Minney said he had the same issue. Carl D'Python Anghelo on his game had the same issue. It's just, to me, it was a huge roadblock that made it, it was a grind. It was an absolute grind to finally get to that wizard mode. So what do you think would be the answer with loops? because we talked about this before. What do you think would make it easier for somebody, for a casual player, right, or for an average player, to feel like it's not a grind? Because since the three loops, I will attest, three loops is hard to get in a row. So what would be the answer or the solution? In my mind, what pisses me off is how many times I have to hit the loop and it doesn't. They're surprised I said pissed off. Wow. He really did hate playing this. I was so frustrated. The nicest guy in the pinball is like, I was pissed off. I was so frustrated. I coughed and dropped the game afterwards. I was so frustrated at how many times I hit the upper loop, and it's not worth anything. There were times that I qualified super spinners. He just played a JJP game. The scoring is all bulldoze. But I'm hitting it, and I'm like, I have to hit this shot 13 times. more times and I've already hit it five times this game. That's a lot. It's worth nothing. Why 13? That's such an unlucky number. Well, it's 14. Like the 14th is the one that qualifies it to start Super Loops. Is it 15 total? I don't think I've ever seen 14 on this plate. Or what is it? Maybe I'm an idiot and I just don't. But it is at least 13. But what sucks is you have to hit the loop at least once to qualify it. But there's a good chance you're going to be spinning the wheel just to get to Super Loops. So it just annoyed me how many times I would hit it before I'd even qualify it. And all of those were for nothing. So in my mind, what would be the solution? The solution is give me a number of just like don't require that you qualify super loops. Say 20 loops in a game. But if you qualify super loops, every time you hit the loop, now it's worth double. You know, like give me that thing where it makes my life easier, but let all the loops count. So if there's any manufacturers listening right now, you need to bring Joel in because people are getting pissed off and you need him to solve these problems. Yeah. Raheem Jolanda, hate playing test player games. If they're going to market this game to a novice slash intermediate player, then maybe they should ask me what the code. Like, these guys are too good for this. They may think that's more tool. It did annoy me you said that your friend, like, mistakenly got to the wizard mode. So he must have hit three super loops. I'm like, oh, okay. He mistakenly grinded away at 14 upper shots. Just randomly happened. Like, yeah, right. No, he must have hit three in a row. There's no way. Yeah, it was definitely three in a row. Yeah, and Ray Day in our Discord chat is like, I'm pretty sure every time I've qualified, it's because I hit it three in a row. And it's like, well, give me your freaking game because my game. Show up here and hit three in a row. The tough part is with that many loops, let's say you can't get three in a row. The tough part is that every time you hit that captive ball, you're basically screwing yourself over. And the other tough part is you basically have to brute force your way to that many loops, and you have to survive it, too. I mean, the moment you flub it, it goes out of control. The ball goes horizontal. You're going to be in a little bit of danger right there, and that's probably the most danger that you're going to be in on that game as well. So, yeah, I think a proper solution to this would probably be putting loops somewhere around eight and then maybe having those super loops or whatever it's called be double, like you said. I would like to see something like that just because if you do hit the captive ball, it does alter things a lot. And you've got to be pretty precise with your shots as well to that woody spinner into that saucer and the feet to the upper flipper. So that's another thing. To load that flipper, you only have three options. You either plunge into it. So you can plunge into it if you do a caravan lock on the left. Like that's what I found. As soon as I would qualify it, I would hit a caravan lock on the left. So you're thinking like a competitive player. Good job. Yeah, because if not, you're trying to hit the woody spinner, which is right next to the captive ball. And if you miss that shot even by a little bit, you just hit the captive ball and spun the spinner, and there goes super loop. So I would always go for that. Otherwise, you can hit the cap, that scoop, the woody spinner. So I've heard that woody sound way too much, like so many times. And then it's like a wooden, like, oh, God. And then, or. Subject us to it also. The last option is you go up into the pops, and there's four pops on this game. And what do they do? They just, the ball just sits there. So in my two and a half hours of play, I think I stood there for 20 minutes watching the ball and the pops. and the pops are going to do one of two things. It's either going to spit it out to the right, which is good. It feeds my upper flipper. Or it spits it into the buzz saucer on the left, sits there, and spits it back out in the pops. And then it will spit it back into the buzz saucer. Or it doesn't do that and it comes straight down the middle. It's just it was so annoying. I was so annoyed. Joel, you sh** on Halloween and now you're sh** on Toy Story 4. Nobody can tell me who bought a Toy Story that they're like, you know what I love about that game? I love that there's four pops. I love it. Or I love that section. To be honest, I really do enjoy the layout of the game. It is fun to shoot. It is very fun to shoot, except for the pops. Except for the spinner and the captive ball and the pops and the saucer. The upper loops, if they change the code, if they do what we said, 20 loops or super loops are counted as double, I would have no issue. There's zero chance they're going to do what we say. The left ramp is great. The left ramp you hit a lot, but the left ramp is fine. The left ramp is better. Yeah, the right orbit, that's essentially the right ramp. Like every other shot, I was never upset. It's like, okay, let me hit it. Let me hit it. Those are fun. I can combo these. Boom, boom, boom. But the buzz, like up there in the pops of just send a ball into the pops and wait and see what it does. just I can't stand it. So what did your family think about the game though? In their limited time with it, what did they think overall? All my family, either my family was young enough that they just liked that it was Toy Story and all they want to do is look at the monitor so they don't care at all what the layout is. Or all I had to show was the Duke Kaboom jump. I would just say the ball's like hit the left ramp. The ball's going to roll through these end lanes. That's going to come up and you're going to have one chance. And they – I had both – two of my sister-in-laws kept playing the game until they hit it. That was enough for them to – like, that was a mech that they wanted to experience. And I can see what – What happened after they hit it? One played, kept going because they hit it once, and they're like, I want to do it. I want to see if I can do it again. Okay, so we're 50% at least. At least half of your sample size wanted to keep playing, so, yeah. Well, I would just say, I mean, if you have a bigger collection or if money's not an issue or if you want a game that your grandkids are going to like, they will like this game. This is a fun game for many novice players. It's just what frustrates me. Sounds like it, Joel. What frustrates me is within the first few weeks, and Travis, you were one of the most vocal people, was it's just like in the first few weeks of owning this game, people are like, this game is really easy. This game is really easy. And now that's been grinding in my head of like, this game is not really easy. This game is not like a layup like some people think it is. But like you said, you were getting to six out of the seven tasks. You were just getting hung up on one thing. And it's probably one of those things that once you bust it through, you'd probably find yourself getting through that a lot more often. I'm pretty sure that's most likely what would happen with it. Probably. I will say, though, based off with people I've been talking to that do have this game on location, it is absolutely destroying one location. I will say that. But of course it needs to because of the price point. That's a lot of coin drop to make back. But it is doing very well on location. Yeah. Well, I get it and that's just my kind of final thought. I was curious, Travis, now that you've had it, if you have any change. Or Tom, you've played one, right? But do you have any opinion of it at this point? It's fine. I mean, it's not something I'm going to go out of my way to go play, but if it's around, I'll certainly go play it. Well, I've been a huge supporter of wearing headphones when you play. Like, listen to this. Don't. Just don't. You don't need headphones for this game. And I don't feel bad saying that because I'm not insulting anybody at JJP. They hired some outside audio company to do the audio package on this game. So it's just, it's not, it just. What's the first thing I told you? As soon as I got the game, I said, wait till you play Tiki Multiball. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, yeah, that sound, I don't understand what's going on. It's just, I just, I got to where I just turned the game completely on mute just to play through it. But I mean, I will say overall, overall, I would say that the game is decent fun. I think if I was at a location, I wouldn't mind playing it if I didn't own it. I mean, the shots are very accessible, so if you're newer to pinball or you want something that is fairly easy to get through besides the loops that make you want to commit murder like, you know, Joel Bob here. But, you know, overall, I think it's a decently fun pin. Yeah. I think, but facing facts, though, if this was anything but Toy Story, I got a feeling a lot of people wouldn't be giving it the benefit of the doubt. I think the theme carries it a lot of the time, even though it happens to be Toy Story 4. I think still a lot of us, just old farts, still remember what Toy Story was when we were younger. So, I mean, there is a little bit of nostalgia there also. But, I mean, for a Pat Lawler pin, I don't know or I don't think that this is going to be one of his top five pins. I think it's firmly out of the top five of Pat Lawler pins. And that's not saying that it's bad. It's just he has some really good pins. No, he's got some bangers. It's just, you know, I mean, this pin is what it is. And I think a large part of it is, too, is because of the giant iPad that is there as well. I mean, it cuts off. I mean, we've seen what it looks like without everything on there and unpopulated play field. I mean, it's just it's a big gap right there. I'm not saying that other games don't have that. It just, you know, I mean, just like you pointed out earlier, the side loop, there's one shot with that pretty much. I mean, you could technically argue, too, if you get something slow and you hit it off the captive ball. But realistically, it's going to be one shot. So, I mean, it's a decently fun pin for what it is. And that's where it is. The iPad is super helpful because that's one thing I think JJP does very well is with their additional, their secondary screen. they they're at least in their last few games those screens do a really great job of communicating what to do and that's what i loved about the ipad whenever in doubt you just look at it it's going to tell you what to hit or what shots you have but yeah that ipad if you take that off i mean it takes a similar amount of real estate as like the upper the entire upper play field that's in gnr you know and there's there's like a ball lock up it'll shoot it'll really i mean it's just but it's just a screen. So I don't know. It's it to me, if I see a toy story on location, I will absolutely put a dollar in it. The first thing I'm going to do is try to go for the Bo Peep loop. And if I can hit there, like if it's smooth, then I will probably keep putting money in that game because I, I would look at it and be like, I'm going to blow this game up. Like I'm going to hate play on location too. Well, it just depends. Like in my mind though, it's like, I'm, I have a chance. Like I know this game, I have a chance that I could put up a big score on this game, So what you're saying is this game is actually like a real-life carnival game, or do you think you actually have a chance? There we go. And you're going to keep feeding it money. Well, now that you mention it, though, I would have to say you spend so much of the game doing carnival modes that the majority of what you hear is just carnival music, and it truly kind of feels more just like a carnival game that just happens to have, you've got a friend in me playing when you're not in carnival mode. Well, and that's the tough part, too. I think a lot of people that are into Toy Story don't necessarily associate the carnival at Toy Story 4 as being the entire thing. So, yeah. Well, there's no – you're not – yeah. We all brainstormed about Toy Story. It's not like, hey, this mode is escape from Andy's room or escape Sid's backyard or catch up with the moving van. It's not like you're doing events. You're doing carnival rides. You know, it's just different carnival rides over and over and over again. It's tough, too, because there's a lot of iconic scenes throughout the whole entire Toy Story saga. So, yeah, I mean, it is what it is. What can you do? How would you rank this game? And, Tom, you've gotten to play this a little bit. How would you guys rank this game against the other JJP games? Somewhere in the middle, maybe. Maybe lower. What's that? What game is below it? We'll just go from there. A JJP game. Maybe there isn't any. Let me think about it. It's tough. I stood there looking at the Toy Story the other day. It's definitely not my favorite. I played Wonka. That was a lot of fun. I enjoy Wonka a lot more than Toy Story. I have limited time on Pirates, but I did enjoy my time on there. Hobbit, I have a love-hate relationship with Hobbit. Like Joel, I've hate-played that sometimes just to get through it on location. Dialed In, I absolutely love. I mean, the theme is what it is, but I love playing in competitions, and I love the layout. And Wizard of Oz, it's kind of different for me. I've played a lot on location at Cactus Tracks, And I don't particularly enjoy it, but I like the theme, but I really don't enjoy playing it itself. So I don't know. Me personally, I probably put Toy Story above Wizard of Oz because of that, but I don't know if I can think of any other games that have come out, like including GNR, Pirates, Dialed In. I don't know if I would rank any of those ahead of Toy Story overall. I have to agree with you there. yeah that's I mean we had this conversation earlier like I think I would take Toy Story over GNR even though I really had a good time with GNR but it just none of my friends and family touched GNR and then Hobbit like I think I personally enjoyed Hobbit more than Toy Story but I'd be curious now if like most of my friends and family didn't touch Hobbit because it was too intimidating there was too much going on they didn't know what to do um dialed in what the Interesting thing here is we were on vacation last week. We went to Indiana Beach in Indiana, obviously, and they had an arcade. And there was, in the arcade, they had a Wonka, a Dialed In, and a Wizard of Oz, as well as a bunch of other games. My brother went right up to Wonka and loved it. He had a great time on Wonka, while I just played Dialed In over and over again. I had a blast. And what was interesting is we switched, and Jared had, like, no fun on Dialed In. And he's like, I had no idea what I was doing. No idea what's going on. It just didn't work. Like, he just didn't enjoy it. While Wonka, I still have no idea what I'm doing in Wonka. And so I played a game. I was just like, eh, I want to go play more dialed in. Like, because I understand dialed in. You know, you charge the phone, you shoot the phone, you follow the shots, you do it. I don't know. It was just easy for me to do that. So I don't know. Like, I just, it's crazy how different people, whether they're really into pinball or not. Travis, I know you were looking at something over on your computer. I feel like you're prepared to make some sort of snarky remark. What did you look up? You typed something. I just didn't even know Indiana had a beach. Learning something new every day. Oh, God. Indiana Beach is a – it's on a lake. There's more than corn in Indiana. Exactly. It's on a lake. It's an amusement. It's like a big theme park. It's not even off a lake, is it? It says river. No, it's a lake. Is it a lake? Twin Lakes, yeah. That doesn't even say Twin Lakes. It says Lake Schaefer. Lake Schaefer. How is that a river? It says Tippecanoe River next to it. Lake Schaefer. Look, I'll show you not much of a freestyle. Nobody cares about this. Nobody cares about this. So, okay. Anyways, I don't know. We can go. We can. I can keep talking. Apparently, I'm just talking way too much. But so we played those games at Indiana Beach. What was cool, though, is that night I actually had an opportunity to go. At Tippecanoe River, by the way. That night I had an opportunity to go into Lafayette, Indiana, and Tommy Skinner, he does a pinball podcast. I forget which one he does. He routes a bunch of games. The Flippin' Pinball Podcast. There we go. He doesn't do a pinball podcast, Joel. No, that one's dumb. Yeah. So he does, what was it, Tom? Sorry. The Flippin' Pinball Podcast. The Flippin' Pinball Podcast. So Tommy's a super nice guy, and he routes some games, North End Pub in Lafayette, Indiana. and we drove 40 minutes to go play pinball. And the reason we did it is because he is routing a P3. He's routing a P3 and he has a Weird Al on location. So you drove 40 minutes while on vacation to go play Weird Al. I probably drive 40 minutes. Yeah, I got to hear this. This is a good setup. I didn't know you did this. Yeah. So the whole reason we did it. Is this in the show notes? God, of course it's in the show notes. Did I type it? Yes. Playing P3. Tom can read. It's in there. It says playing P3 slash Godzilla. Yeah, I thought that meant Godzilla was on the P3 randomly. I was like, what are you talking about here? Holy cow. Okay, go ahead. I'm running the story. Go ahead. I've got to hear the story. Okay, so you drove four minutes while on vacation to go play Weird Al. Okay, go. This was the last night that we were supposed to stay. My parents bought a house for all of us to stay in. And my brother and his kids left early. My sister and her kids had to leave early. So it was just going to be my family. My kids slept terribly because they weren at their own house So my wife was like I willing to take my kids home if you want to stay I was like deal Yeah ditch the family Perfect Literally it me and my parents Me and my parents. And my mom's like, what do you want to do tonight? Do you think Joel's wife was swearing the whole ride home? No, she was actually happy. She was very happy. I see the silver lining in this. She was just ready to get rid of Joel after vacation. He kept saying friends and family so damn much. Hey, my friends and family are here. Joel, we're just your family. Yeah, that's what I'm, yeah, okay. So my mom's looking at me, and she's like, what do you want to do? And I'm like, well, this is pretty dumb, but 40 minutes away, there's a pinball machine I'd really like to play. It's attached to a bowling alley. Like, I'm happy to play pinball if you and Dad want to go bowling. She's like, well, that sounds fun. Why don't you just sell it at Weird Al? Why do you got to put bowling into this? Just tell them you could run with scissors while playing this game. Oh, yeah. So they're on board. So we went. We had a great dinner. We drove into town. And so I was super curious to see what my parents would think of the P3 because the P3, as much as we've talked about it, it's always been in the back of my head as in, like, I feel like it's a system that novice players will really gravitate towards because they can relate to video games or video assets. I really thought there was a chance there. So we step up to the P3, and my dad's really staring at this thing, and he's helped me move a bunch of the machines. What the hell is this? Tom, sorry, Travis, your beer is empty. What are we pointing at? Yeah, my beer is empty. I got to go refill. Okay, so I'll just keep going. Go ahead with your story. Go ahead. Tom, I love the joke. I love that energy. Keep that up. Thank you. So I step up to the P3, and my parents are watching, and I start explaining. I'm like, yes, this lower two-thirds is a screen. You're going to see a change. This physical module up at the top, you can replace it. It's one system, but you can have different games. They're like, well, that's pretty cool. So then I start playing and seeing the shots. And Dad's like, wow, it's really cool. You know, it follows the ball. And, like, it communicates really well what you need to hit, all this stuff. So I'm playing the game, and I was like, here, Dad, I want you to play a game on it. So he steps up and plays the game. I said, how did the flippers feel? He's like, what do you mean? I was like, did they feel weird because the flippers are a completely different system than a normal pinball machine? He's like, nope, felt fine to me. So I was like, all right, seems pretty like he kind of likes this system. He's kind of entertained by the system. So I keep playing, and my dad's still watching, because I was trying to get to the germs mode. I don't know if you guys know that, but the germs mode, there's a mode in the game where there's the scoops. On a P3, there's a scoop and wall system, and that's on the very end of the monitor, which is pretty cool because the hamster multiball the scoops will pop up and it's any sort of mech that's a changed state that like gets in your way i'm all about well the germs mode the wall comes up and now all you're playing is you're playing on the screen just the screen and there's these germs moving around the screen and you have to hit the red germs um and change them into green germs so it's all with ball tracking and my dad was really impressed by that he's like now that's cool like that is a really cool mode does sound cool It's unique. I mean, there's no other system that could play that, that could do that, obviously, other than P3. So then after we play the germs mode, my dad out of nowhere goes, he goes, how old is this? And I was like, this game came out in March. And he goes, oh. I said, what do you mean? He goes, I thought it was a lot older. Like the graphics look a lot older than that. And I was like, interesting. Like that is a comment that we've heard from. from a lot of people. He goes, it kind of looks like old video games, kind of like cell phone game quality. And I'm like, interesting. That is cell phone game is what a lot of people say. So this is my dad completely unprompted. That was his takeaway from the P3 was he's like, this is very innovative. This is very unique. This is very cool. But it doesn't like in my mind, I thought the P3 is like the modern definition of pinball. but yet it doesn't like that's not his perception of it so i have a question actually to the graphics and everything so the screen is it the resolution is it like 720p is it it i think it's 720 it may be 10 but it's not that's that's not what he meant with the graphics no i understand that yeah when they animate weird al it's like he's it's like he's a paper doll you know with just individual joints, the way he moves his arms and stuff. But isn't that a creative decision, though? I figured it was. It is, but it's also like the graphics have kind of been that way on all P3 games. They're not the video game level of today. They're not crazy 3D animations with high-end rendering. It's just, I don't know, the graphics are never – it's like you compare it to other pinball machines, and people are like, holy cow, look at Zombie Yeti's art. This is beautiful. Look at these art packages. They're just amazing. This is just, it's a piece of art in itself. The P3 is, I just, I don't hear anybody raving about the art that you see on the screen. And it's getting better, but it's still just kind of there. It's, you know, it's kind of like Jurassic Park animations when the original renderings were, they've improved on a bunch of those. It's just, I don't know, I just, I thought it was a surprising comment. So you're saying that's like Doom level or? no if it was more like ranger in the ruins i think is a great p3 game because he made the art very retro pixelated 8-bit art style so it fit really well but i don't know the art style they're picking it just it just doesn't scream modern art but it's i still had a good time i still had a good time but in my mind i was thinking if my parents were going to be like blown away by this system, then that in my mind would be like, well, maybe I should really still consider a P3 because if my friends and family are going to like flock to play this game because of how cool or innovative or unique it is, that'd be really cool. But we played it for like 15 minutes. My dad's like, all right, what else do we have? So then we started moving down the row and we ended up getting to Godzilla. There was a Godzilla pro. It wasn't even a premium. It was just a pro there. and we started playing and I started doing a game with my dad and my dad just wanted to keep playing he's not a Godzilla fan it's not like he has any attachment to the license but he was actually hitting shots and he had a blast he had a really good time on Godzilla between the sound package and the explosions and that but he he was actually hitting things he never got into a battle but he was hitting the building shot. He was able to start a multiball. Like he had a really good time on Godzilla. So I thought that was neat. We kept playing a bunch of other modern pins. And then Tommy, which cools around the bar, he actually has one whole section of older games. So there was a Simbad. I think it was Simbad. A Dolly Parton. Meteor. And then there was a Vikings. And Vikings. Vikings? Vikings. It's just Vikings. Plural. Vikings. No. Vikings? Singular. Viking. Singular. Viking. Oh, I thought you said Vikings. I was like, holy shit, I need to play that game. Viking, singular. Apologies, wait, I screwed up again. You got a sensor. Thank you. Okay, so what's cool is we played one game of each one. There were only a quarter. I had a good time on Viking because of the out lane ball save, essentially. There's two rubbers at the bottom and two gates where, depending on the speed of the ball, you can kind of nudge and bounce your ball back into the in lane. I thought that was kind of sick. In my mind, I would love to see something like that on a modern pin. It'll probably never happen, but that was a standout for me. I thought that was really cool. So we played all these games, had a great time. We were walking to the car, and I said, all right, Dad, if you could have one of these games for your basement, would you rather have the P3 system or Godzilla? And he, without missing a beat, was like, Godzilla. And that was a Godzilla Pro. So a Godzilla Pro, roughly a $65,000, $7,000 game, compared to an entire P3 system, 10 grand plus, is that Godzilla prop. And I was like, why? He goes, it was fun. I was hitting shots. I felt like I was doing something. It's just I had a good time. And then what made me really happy was the next day driving home, he out of nowhere was like, you know what, Joel, I was thinking about your question yesterday and about which system would I want. And he goes, another reason I really like Godzilla is it's Godzilla. Like you know what you're doing. You know you're a big creature that you're just going to be destroying things. like it just it resonated way more than weird like weird he knew weird al he didn't know his last name he butchered his last name or whatever he's like i know he kind of makes funny songs but it's just like that doesn't mean anything to me you know and so it just it was a it was a really interesting thing that in my mind i was like i have a godzilla premium on order but in the back of my head it's like the money that i'd put put towards godzilla premium wouldn't make sense for me to put that towards a different game, potentially even a P3. That's always been in the back of my head. And here was like a chance to play games. And I walked away saying, nope, Godzilla premium is still the right answer. That is the thing to buy, not only for myself, but also for, you know, my friends and family. So that's a long winded story. But I don't know if you guys have any or if you've had similar takes on people that have played your Godzillas or what? I don't let anybody touch my Godzilla. All right. Okay. Tom, does your Godzilla get played? I mean, you're out of that LE, or you don't let people touch it? Neil was playing it today. I couldn't get on it. Oh, there you go. Maybe you need to buy two. That way, no. I don't know. It was a long-winded story, but hey, I just... And that story is not... It was a great story, though, Joel. I mean, it had so much in it. I was enthralled. You were on the edge of your seat? I literally went to go get my beer, and I could hear him through my headphones the whole time. I'm like, this is a great story. I'm going to take my time and get a bite to eat real quick and then go use the bathroom and then come back. And he was still telling the story, and I was enthralled. It was a great story, though. I feel like there's a hint of sarcasm in most of it. No sarcasm, no. I actually remember that your old man was on your podcast. I think it was your second ever podcast that you did. See, I actually remember that throwback. So I like hearing that he has an opinion on a game. Oh, yeah. You know, there you go. I like hearing people that are very casual hearing about their experience in pinball because I think, and I'm not even being sarcastic, I think that that's probably the most pure opinion that we could ever get from somebody that's involved in pinball. And I think those opinions are very important because new people or people that are just now getting interested in the hobby, they're going to be driving it in the future. I mean, all of us, we've all been in it for a while. We passed that five-year time span, and we know what we like, what we don't like. And I'm always fascinated to hear about people that are just now discovering what they like out of a game because it's not always going to be the same thing. True. You know, it's always going to be different. It's always going to be unique to that particular person. So that's why I actually am interested in that. Yes, you did tell a great story, Joel. And I was impressed when you started talking about germs because I was literally washing my hands as soon as you started doing that. That's why I was laughing when I got back here. So, yeah, it was perfect. It was like the voice in my head was just talking about what I was doing. So I was very impressed by that. Hey, life's all about timing, you know. There you go. It's like my conscience. I appreciate it, Joel. That whole story, it's not to say anything negative about P3. Like I actually had a really good time on it. It was the fact that that was routed. Like Tommy said, that game is on pace to being his highest earner ever. And I said, well, and he goes, well, he goes, truthfully, though, it's always the newest game. Whatever the newest game is typically kills. But he goes, this is earning a ton. And I don't know if it's because people know, they're traveling like me, are coming just to experience it, or if it's actually pulling casuals in. What I will say is we were in that main room for probably an hour. I was the only person that played the P3 when we were in there. surprisingly the game that was getting the most played was turtles. Turtles actually had a good amount of play on it. And I, and then the last thing is he had, you know, most of his games had insider connect. Um, he had one of the screens up. So it was like the North end pub insider connect leaderboard. And I was, I was super motivated by that thing. I looked at Godzilla and I saw the number one score was like 3 billion. I'm like, yeah, that was Tommy. I was like, not going to happen. But then I saw just to get fifth, I only needed like, I don't know, like 500 million or something. And I'm like, I'm getting on this board. And I played it just watching my name go up the, you know, like my mom would look over and she's like, oh, you're only 50,000 away from moving up the spot. And it's just, it was to me, it's like if you're an operator or that made my mom sound really lame. I'm glad you have your mom cheerleading while you play. I need to start bringing my mom to competition so she can cheer me on. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure people ask, is this your first time playing in a competition? You're already bringing Monica. Yeah, Monica's not going to cheer him on because she's going to want this game higher than hers. Tom, you saw her. I don't have anybody cheering me on. I have Neil destroying me. I have you destroying me. You got, we were cheering you on while you were playing Godzilla. Tom, I'll cheer you on. We were going nuts. Yeah. We were cheering on Tom. You were laughing at me too. That's fair. But still, though, it's because you nearly, like, death save, or not death save, you split save the game into, like, the concrete pillar. And then turned around and looked at your TV. Well, we'll go ahead and transition there. But just to finish that up, I will say, if you're an operator, having a chance to have your own leaderboard there on your location, I don't know exactly what you need, whether it's just, like, a TV and a Raspberry Pi or some simple system to hook your TV up to that one website. Probably an HDMI cord, maybe. Well, potentially. I don't know. You have to have something to connect to the Internet that's going to go to that landing page. Wi-Fi. The TV was just built in Wi-Fi and then a browser. Like, I don't know. The TVs have built-in towers. Okay, okay. Well, get all those things. 2022, Joel Bob. Holy cow. Smart. Very smart. So get that. I would just encourage. I was motivated by Insider Connect. I thought that was pretty sick, and it was cool to see the leaderboard. So big thumbs up from me. But that's enough. Since you did get to play Weird Al, what was your, like, most favorite part of it? I do, the modes are very different. Like, that's one thing I really liked where, you know, to be playing the heck out of Toy Story and it's just like, oh, it's a carnival mode. Oh, it's a carnival mode. Oh, it's a carnival mode. Sure, the shots are different. You know, this carnival mode, I'm hitting the cap the ball and then ripping spinners. But it's a carnival mode. Like, this is like germs. That mode is extremely different than Amish Paradise or White and Nerdy. You know, and it just, I really enjoyed that. The change in pace. So you like that each mode kind of felt like its own little ecosystem. Sure. Within the game. And do you think that was aided by just the P3 platform itself? And that's, yeah, because the whole screen's changing. I mean, Amish Paradise, the whole bottom half looks like a wooden box of a pinball machine. And Germs is, you know, it just, everything feels very different. So I still like the P3 system. It still is a system that's tempting to me, and maybe one day there will be a module that will finally convince me to dive in. And if that happens, I'd buy Weird Al. Like, it was a good time, especially at $3,000 or whatever the module is. And where did you play the set? North End Pub in Lafayette, Indiana. You got me sold. I have to drive 40 minutes and go play it. 40 minutes in Lafayette, Indiana. Yeah, you're right there. So it's a good time. I really enjoyed it, And I still think it's a very, very cool system. I just, what I was most curious about it was what would a novice think of this system? And because, you know, my dad, I'm not dragging my dad to a pinball show. So I was just really curious to see how his reaction, and there you go. I told my super enthralling story of my dad's reaction. Are you still coming to Cleeton, Joe? That is the plan. That is the plan. It is on the calendar. It's very close. Yeah, I know. What? I don't know what day it is yet. When did this happen? He's been talking about it forever. Thank you, Tom. I didn't know he was going to Cleapin. Yeah. Well, it's Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So I'm thinking, like, drive Friday night, be there all Saturday, drive home Sunday, something like that. You going to play in the tournament? Heck no. Yes, you are. Are you going to cheer us on? Yeah. Are you going to cheer Neil and Travis on? All right. So we will. Here's your transition. We're going to take him to the bar. We're going to give him a couple of drinks. and then we're just going to shove them in front of machines. He's not even going to know how to queue up or something. He'll be like, just hit the start button. Hit it four times, right? It's when you've got to start everything again. Yeah, play a four-player game. It'll be awesome. Well, tournament, you've got to start. Yeah, okay, anyways. Yeah, definitely start a four-player game in a Herb format. Isn't that an automatic DQ if you don't start enough players? You're player one or something. Oh, yeah. That's a fair DQ. Josh Sharpe will come over to you and just unplug the machine and tell you to get the out. Yeah. That's what happens. It's not a DQ. It's a warning, a slap on the wrist? No, you just restart the game, and everybody hates you. Oh. Especially the player one who has, you know, 100 million and has to restart. My brother played in a Magic the Gathering tournament over the weekend, and he actually – That's where you get it. What I'm saying is – Did people hit the start button wrong on Magic the Gathering tournament? He had a moment where all five judges in the tournament were watching his game because of some issues. There's judges? There's judges in Magic the Gathering. There's issues? What do you mean, issues? Like, I don't know. I mean, there's a whole thing there. Does somebody have, like, a sneaky card up their sleeve? No, apparently, like, if you play a card, but if you're, like, in the middle of a critical hit card on the floor, there's a, I'll tell you right now, the crossover between Magic the Gathering and pinball is pretty big, So I don't want to offend any players. But, yeah, there's big things. Like you draw one too many cards. You get warnings. So what was the issue? What was the issue? His particular issue dealt with, and the way he described it was, when you're playing your turn, you're, like, laying everything out. If you potentially lay a card and realize you don't want to do that, it's kind of like a thing you can say, like, I want to take this card back. And as long as nothing's changed, there's no change state, it's up to your opponent on whether or not they okay it. Apparently it's pretty common for them to be like, yeah, that's fine. Well, Jared said that. He's like, he knew. He's like, if I do this, I've just lost the whole game. So he's like, I didn't mean to do this. Can I take this back? The guy's like, I want to ask a judge. So one judge came over. The judge is like, let me ask another judge. Judge two comes over and says, yeah, you can do that. So Jared takes the card back. Then one of that guy's teammates said, I'm going to review, like, I don't agree. It was a team thing. Yeah. So there's three different players playing three different matches. It's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. So his teammate's like, I'm going to argue that call. So then they call over the head judge of the entire tournament. And at this point, Jared's match was so delayed. It was literally the entire round was waiting on him, on his match. The head judge is there. So now the other judges come to watch. There are five judges watching his match. And the head judge of the tournament says, you can do that. So Jared picked up the card, and now literally all the judges are watching him play. And apparently at one point he, like, reached over, and he's supposed to pick up three cards, and he actually had four. He never looked at it, but, like, put one back, and the judge is like, that's a warning. You can have three warnings for tournament. It's like, super. Exactly. So he was, like, telling me how psyched out he was, you know, when you're trying to compete, but yet you're having all these people watch you. You're holding up an entire tournament. He was in his head. I don't know. He was really worked up about it. And I felt bad for him. But I don't know. And unfortunately, he said the worst part was at the end, he did the math in his head and he thought they had killed all of his guys. So he cleared him up. And then he was doing the math afterwards and realized he was wrong. He only killed four out of his five guys. So he was still alive. And he's like, I have five judges watching me. Why did they not stop that? Like, why did they not stop? They're all doing the same math. So then he was pissed that the judges were like against him. And I don't know. My brother listens to the podcast. So he's probably sitting here going, you told that story incredibly wrong. It sounds like the whole thing was rigged against your brother. That's what I'm getting out of it. Yeah. Well, at least somebody in your family competes, though. So, I mean, no. He said that on stream. He goes, now that I know that there are pinball tournaments, I suck at pinball. But he's like, I want to play in one. I want to play in a tournament. He's making me look bad. One day. Well, tell him to come to Cleveland. I was going to say. Maybe not. Hang out with him and not Joel. Yeah, Joel. You're off the podcast, Joel. Who's your brother on here? You're on. Who's the competitive one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, I've talked a lot tonight, and there's another subject. No. There's another subject. Hey, guys, welcome to Triple Drain, which is really just another pinball podcast. With two support members who get refills and go to the bathroom while I talk. Do you think Joel gets us fired up to have us on his podcast as he does George Gomez and Keith Elwin? I don't know. No is the answer. I mean, no. Would you? Come on. That's not fair. That was the easiest question I've ever answered. Hey. What's the question? Would I what? Would you get more fired up? You asked the question. Am I repeating your own question? You said what I, what I want. Would you get, if you had the option to record tonight with me or Keith Elwin, you're going to tell me you get just as excited that I'm going to record with you? Yeah, I'm always super excited to record with you, Joel. Always. I got you a comfy. You did. I called a snuggie, like an a-hole, but still. You should get Keith a comfy. Hey, I respect my friends, okay? I enjoy hanging out with my friends, especially Tom. Well, here you go. Here's your transition. Joel, we just tolerate. Here's your transition, okay? I'm going to shut up. You had a chance to hang out with a bunch of your friends, including Tom. You guys played in a tournament just, what was it, last weekend or the weekend before? Two weekends ago. Two weekends ago, yes. Was it really two weekends ago? Oh, boy. Yeah. I'm going to shut up because I have nothing to contribute to this conversation. So why don't you guys take off and fill us in? I could just talk about airports and being on planes. I could talk about Uber drives on the way to the hotel. Oh, yeah. I saw something that I cannot unsee. This is pretty good. I'm in New York. Please. I told Tom the story. Okay. So this is like literally a rated R story for anybody listening. I want to fast forward five minutes. Oh, no. You don't have to be. I'm not going to cuss or anything. But, I mean, I realized, wait, I'm in New York right now. I'm in New York City. It made total sense. So we don't see this type of thing in Oklahoma City or now in St. Louis. Do they have Uber in Oklahoma? No, we use horse and buggy. Okay, just checking. Yes. So basically, I'll just speed this up. We flew in. I was with Monica. We got on Uber. We, you know, did the quintessential. What time was it? It was late. It was super late. I mean, this had to be. It was like 10 or 11, wasn't it? Yeah, it was later in the evening. And we did like the perfect Uber ride to where somebody's like, hey, here's the Uber. Take it. Get on it. Uber driver says hello. We say hi. And that's it. Just drive us to our spot. Right. So it's perfect. We're just driving along, looking at everything, seeing all the buildings. And then all of a sudden we get to the stoplight and we're kind of like creeping through it. I look over to my left, and I see one body against the wall, against the building. Then I see another body right by it. It's like a silhouette. I notice that that one body is doing a dry humping motion. So I'm like, what is this? So we kept driving, and then the light finally got perfect on them. I'm like, oh, they're just straight up having sex, like in the middle of the room, like against the building right there. I'm like, what in the world? Welcome to New York. Yeah, I told Monica, I'm like, did you just see that? And she's like, oh, the bird over there? I'm like, what are you talking about? No. So, yeah, that was like my first introduction to New York. I was just like, what am I seeing right now? So, yeah, and Tom was at a tournament at the time at, I think, Jack Bar? Yeah. I think. So, yeah, so Tom was giving me the play-by-play of Neil just absolutely destroying the strikes tournament. as Neil does, and then, you know, I'm seeing, like, live-action sex scenes play out in the streets of New York City. I have to say, Jack Bar was a really nice location. I'd recommend anybody go there if you're in the area. Yeah, he's got quite a collection. Yeah, it was nice. I enjoyed it. Yeah, it was quite the collection. I enjoyed it, even though I got knocked out in the first two games. I still enjoyed it. Okay, there's a bar. You're fine. You guys were at that tournament the same time I was on vacation. So I did not see any outside fornication. I went to the beach. Oh, that's right. He went to Indiana Beach. Remember? The beach on the river, apparently. It's a river. I just sent you the screenshot. Lake Schaefer, Indiana. It's a river. Okay. It's a river. Okay. So you guys actually played in a tournament. That was the same weekend as the tournament up in Canada, right? that pinballers Mike and Carter and, you don't know? No, I think that was the week after, I think. Shout out to them because Carter crushed it. But Jeff Teolis, he made top four too. But, all right, so talk about you two. I mean, what happened? Did you play well? Who kicked your butt? What mistakes were made? So many stories. So many mistakes. You know, you could just literally start with one. Just pick one. Um, every time I played, hold on a second. Every time I played Star Trek, freaking Walking Dead right next to it was, something was going on. Something was wrong. It was broken. Players are complaining. I'm sitting there trying to play. I'm distracted. You can't, or, well, I mean, if you're middle of the ball, you can't stop if they're repairing a game right next to you? Oh, no, I did. Oh. Because there was like a TD attack and the player like in my personal space. And I'm just kind of like, okay, I got to stop. It's all right. At one point I was playing Tron and there was a tech fixing ACDC and they literally just started leaning on my game. I'm like, bro. Oh, that's right. You guys were, like, venting. There were multiple things, apparently, about this. Yeah, well, it's a herb, and it is an expensive herb. So it was $20. It was very expensive. It was $20 for five entries, and for those math majors out there, that's $4 per game. So that's, you know, that's a lot of money per game. So each one mattered. Usually, if I go to a herb, like, I'm ready to pump and dump. I will be the king of pumping and dumping. Not as good as those two people on the street corner that I saw driving. That's hoping and hoping. Yeah, I will definitely, like, get going. So, because it's like mini pinball vacation for me there. Like, I love her format. I love it. But going to New York, I knew because of the price tag that I was going to severely limit myself to my entry. So, I had, like, a hard stop budget. And I knew that every single game I played, it actually mattered. Usually I like using games to kind of see how they're playing, to see what the bounces, what the tilts are. But this time I was just playing just straight up just to save as much money as I could. So naturally when Homeboy started just leaning against my pen to fix ACDC, I was like, we're not on location here. This is an expensive tournament. Because it was $100 or basically $100 to get into the event, which the event was like, I don't know, 12 free play games with six or seven being from coin taker and then some off to the side. And I think project pinball was there with a couple of games too, but then the rest were tournament games, but then you still had to pay another fee, which is basically a hundred dollars right around there to be in the tournament. And then you had to pay your entries. So you did get some free entries for, uh, the, if you got, yeah, if you, if you ordered early enough, early enough. Yes. Yeah. So free for $100. Yeah. So that was there. But, yeah, it's just, I don't know. I mean, the rough part was is that some of the games, it was obvious that they weren't quite ready for tournament play. I mean, there was a couple, like the Godzilla played great. I felt like the Rolling Stones played pretty well. I'm trying to think of some others. ACDC, even though it went up and down, I thought it played fair. The creature with the offset flippers was kind of on. That creature was rough. The flippers were literally not even. So, like, one flipper, yeah, like, was up here and the other. I mean, it played fine, I guess. Yeah, and that led. Was that purposeful? No. I don't think so. I don't think so. Only Germany purposefully makes their flippers, like, be offset. What was that, like, Wizard that they did that with? Where the flippers were like purposely offset. But yeah, so I mean, there was some issues with that. But my biggest pet peeve happened when we were in Classics Finals. So I ended up getting, I think it was second seed overall. And it was, I made it to the second round. I lucked out getting past the first round, got to the second round. And then shortly after I got eliminated, I was talking to somebody because we were talking about game picks. And then I realized the way that they were talking, they were picking the same games. And I was like, wait a second. Like, what do you mean you're picking the same games? Like, oh, yeah, I was just, you know, I picked these games in the first round. I just stuck with it. I'm like, I didn't do that. And the reason why I didn't do that, because it clearly said on the rules on the website that you can basically. Yeah, it literally says in all divisions, something like machines can only be selected once. and once is in capital letters per player during the duration of the finals. And so I played classics finals according to that rule set only to find out that somehow I guess it changed during the players meeting I don know when the change was So that was kind of frustrating to end up getting eliminated off games in which I wouldn have never even picked in the first place. And it came down to the last game. So that was kind of a kick in the nuts, so to say. But lesson learned, just pick your games and let the TD tell you no. So I guess that's a lesson I learned. So don't follow the rules. Just make them up along the way and hope for the best, I suppose. But, I mean, so, yeah, I'm not saying, like, that would have led to any differences. But since I was able to pick the games and be the bus driver, that would have been huge to be able to play the games that I wanted to play and not feel like my games were already burned. So that was kind of a downside. And then the other downside for me was the finals. Yeah, the actual finals. So we all, it's crazy. I got a text. I think it was from Tom. And he's like, yeah, Russian Godzilla are out. I'm like, what do you mean they're out? Like, how did they break down overnight? Those were the best playing games. He's like, oh, no, they're not in the tournament anymore. They're getting packed up. And I'm like, what? And so I won't name any other names. But, of course, there was other people in the tournament that were in finals that they were just as perturbed by that. And we get there. Neil was, too. I mean, those were his kind of go-to games. Yeah, Godzilla would have definitely been one of my picks if I had the opportunity to pick a game. He was like, I'm going to pick Rush and Godzilla. Mm-hmm. You know. Yep, yep. And so those two games got taken away. Which I don't know if you could blame the tournament directors for that. Right. So to my knowledge, it was not the tournament director's fault. From what I understand, they did not realize that this was going to happen, and they were games that were brought by Coin Taker, and apparently Coin Taker. Game Taker. Apparently they were going to leave early. And so they left, and they left with their games. I mean, obviously they're not going to leave their games behind, but, yeah, they just packed it up and took it. Which I think is odd because, like, I mean, from my perspective, okay, I've gone to Midwest Gaming Classic so many times, and the vendors do not pack up their stuff until the end of the show. I've gone to Expo. Same thing. The vendors typically don't pack up until the end of the show, so it was just a little odd. There was a lot of people not happy about it. I'll just say that. I know I will really say I was one of them because Godzilla would have been one of my picks. I mean, Rush, I struggled best on it, but Godzilla, I had it dialed in, and I would have had fun playing that game. So it just, that part was frustrating, and I've seen games go down, right? But I've never seen games just outright taken out because people that supply the game. Yeah, and I mean, for a tournament that's supposed to be so prestigious, such as the New York City Pinball Championships, and to have the sponsor, or I guess that they were the sponsor of the tournament, just pull mainstern games out of it, it's just like crap, you know? I mean, it just didn't feel good spending all that money to go out there. I mean, like traveling, hotel, tournament entry, like it's expensive. It was not cheap. It was by far the most expensive tournament I played in, and this includes InDisc that was out in California. This was very expensive. And just to find out that games were just being pulled just the morning of. And, I mean, like we said, it was no fault to the tournament directors because I don't think they even realized it. But, man, that just kind of topped everything and just kind of left a sour taste in my mouth personally. But, you know, at the end of the day, it is what it is. I still had fun playing pinball. I liked the view from the pinball area. I mean, the view was pretty spectacular. What's that? You like the view from the Uber? Oh, yeah, yeah, that was great. The actual venue was very nice. It was a great place to hold it. Like Travis said, awesome view. You could see the Statue of Liberty just out the window. I mean, it was pretty awesome. They had a lot of places to eat and things like that. but yeah I mean it it was just some of the stuff that was happening like the games being taken away the other thing I didn't understand like they brought some of the like I think they brought Dolly Parton in from classics which was fine and then they brought a couple of the games from the women's tournament which was fine but the thing I thought was odd was you couldn't at least get like 30 seconds of practice on those games. They just announced like, yeah, no, no practice. And not touching those games. I mean, everybody was playing those games for two days straight and then bringing in, what, three or four games and not being able, you know, you pick them and you're like, okay, well, I don't, I mean, I know the game, but I don't know how it feels or, you know. So at least get a chance to play it was a little odd, I thought. Yeah, no, I agree. That's the best spot right there to get a 30-second practice. Whenever you play to Herb, obviously, if all the games that were in qualifying, it makes sense that, hey, if you didn't play it, that's, you know, it is what it is. But if the game's not even in the qualifying bank and it just gets brought into finals, yeah, I would prefer there to be at least a 30 second practice. I don't think it's hurting anything. Finals means a lot. People have traveled there. People have paid, again, we talked about a lot of money to be there. So, yeah, I'm all for 30 seconds of practice before. Just let people just see where the bounces are, see where the flippers are, instead of using their very first ball to figure that out. Because each ball in finals, everybody there can play. And, you know, there's a lot of excellent players that didn't make finals. So, I mean, with everybody there. With everybody there playing, it's like, you know, I mean, you want to get a chance. But, yeah, it's just, yeah, I mean, it's definitely, it's weird because I would say, like, it feels like the tournament has some growing pains, but it's already been around for a couple of years. This isn't their first rodeo. So, I mean, there was just. It was their first time at that venue. Right, but it's their first time post-COVID, I guess, because they had one in, what, 2018, 2019. So, I mean, I don't know. it just goes back to, I guess, whenever you are running a tournament, the one main thing you want to make sure of is that the games play well or play as well as you can get them. They're clean, they're ready to go and just try to make sure all the games, I guess, can stay there throughout finals as long as they're working. I mean, that would be the big thing, but yeah, it's just overall, I think, and I told Tom this too, I think what it, What it really seemed in it for me is that I'm very much on board with regional facilities that have lots of pins there that are taken care by somebody or by a group that play very well, that are well maintained, that are up to tournament standards. So, I mean, when I look at how District 82 does it, I mean, they do it excellent. Going out to Delaware, they had their games dialed in very well. I very much enjoyed that. And, you know, that's just kind of the nature of the beast when it comes to Herb is that most of the games are going to be sourced from various people. So, you know, this isn't just really just New York City. It's been like this everywhere. When you're sourcing games from different people, you're going to get different types of games coming in. But at the very least, I would hope that the games are at least clean and just ready to go. I mean, if they play a little weird, a little funky, that's just part of it. That's what happens when you, you know, source games from different people. But, you know, at the end of the day, that's just my expectations out of a tournament. But, you know, outside of that, it's still pinball. It's still fun. I think at least three-fourths of the games played decent enough to where, you know, I guess we were able to identify the games that we wanted to keep playing, the games that were just like, these are total grenades. Don't mess with it. There's no point. Flippers are going to die pretty quick. So we figured that part out. I mean, it was fun being around friends. It was fun eating the food, drinking the beer, not seeing people in the alleys or street corners doing their thing, you know, overall. But I will say I had the worst time getting sleep, though. It was like every other hour there were sirens going off. Tom says he couldn't hear it, but it was like a whole time for me. I slept great, and we were in the same hotel. I was like rage playing Toy Story like Joel does, like in the middle of the night. I would wake up and I just – well, and plus, too, admittedly, I was trying to be in the best mood possible because as soon as we landed in New York, my allergies just went nuts for the whole entire weekend. It was something. Like, I just – I kept, like, running nose, just stopped up, just – I mean, it just – my – but as soon as I got back to Missouri, gone. It was just gone. And that's when I finally did get back to Missouri because, of course, American Airlines just kept screwing up my flight. We ended up not flying home until Monday. And then my kids missed their first day of school because of that. So, yeah, other than that, it was great. So Joel will find this funny, and maybe our listeners, but there was a – I'm not going to say who it was, but there was a person who walked up to me at the tournament during qualifying and was like, you're Tom Graff from the Triple Dream podcast. And I was standing right next to Raymond talking to him. And I'm like, and this is Raymond Davidson. I thought that was hilarious. That's awesome. Look at you, Tom. I would have loved if Travis would have been standing there and you just ignore him. Most people go up to Travis. Did you bring Thomas Hatz finally? Nope. Was I supposed to? Yes, you will have a CBN hat. It's probably a great hat. I did it. Because American Airlines, like, screwed everything up so much, his hat probably would have ended up somewhere in Wyoming. I mean, American Airlines is terrible. Let's go off on a tangent for now. If you want to ride on an airline that is great, it's not American Airlines. It is horrible. I would rather just Forrest Gump my way to New York City next time. Like, there's this, I can't do it anymore, Joel. Can't do it anymore. They cancel flights. They push back flights. They redo flights. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then on top of it, they send us to a hotel saying, yeah, here's about, well, no, first, here's what they do, Joel, Bob. They say, hey, hey, we're going to put you on a shuttle, right? It's free to get to this hotel, right? that's comped. So we go up to the shuttle. Hey, when's the next shuttle run? Oh, an hour and 20 minutes from now. Like it's 1 a.m. in the morning. What do you mean an hour and 20 minutes from now? So then you get an Uber and you go to the hotel that's comped. You get there. Then the person running the front desk is like, well, we got nothing from American Airlines. We didn't even know you were coming. So then you just wait another 30 minutes. And then by the time you get to your room, it's, I don't know, three o'clock in the morning and you got to wake up at 530 in morning to get to your shuttle that you're hoping shows up just to get to your flight that morning. Okay. Hand it over. See, that's one of the perks of not playing tournament pinball. I get to stay in my house. That's why I flew Delta. I don't know. But I still have problems. I got stuck in New York overnight. Our plane got canceled. I'm not. I don't. We have a big family vacation. This is why I'm missing Expo. We have a big family vacation out to San Diego in October. and I am not excited. I don't know. My mother-in-law booked the whole thing, and I'm flying with a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. So it's like that alone is going to suck. And I just hope and pray that just – I'm already going to have to deal with them. I don't want to have to deal with an airline. But the more that I hear about airplane travel right now, I mean, we're going to get screwed. But we'll see. It's horrible, Joel. The only way to get through it is that you just go to the Chili's bar before the flight, and then you just hope that they let you on the flight afterwards. So, yeah, it's just, oh, airports. I can't do it anymore. I'm done. I'm so done with airports. So you said you're driving to Cleapen, right? Yes. Both of you are. Yeah. Yeah. Because I am flying. I briefly looked at flights, and I was like, no, no. I bought my tickets a while ago, and I'm seriously considering canceling. I mean, what I plan on doing is just driving to Indianapolis and let Joel drive the rest of the way. Now I know he's going. Okay. Well, is there anything else you guys have to say about New York? American Airlines sucks, and that's it. That's all I got. Well, you've had some good words of wisdom, and believe it or not, we actually have – we've had a few people that have emailed us over the few months, and they normally ask good questions. I try to do my best to remember to bring them up on the podcast, and I will tell you I've not been very good at that. But this was an email we got from John, and basically the long and short of it was people like triple combo. We enjoy doing triple combos. The problem is they take a long time because really breaking down tournament strats or wizard modes, I mean, it can be 30 minutes plus on talking about a game and so trying to fit it into a podcast. We need to do it more, and we're sorry we don't do it more often because people love them. It needs to be its own podcast. It probably should at this point. But John here, basically what he asked is he said he really enjoyed the discussion on Godzilla, and he's just saying he's trying to get a better understanding of rule sets, code, strategy. So his question is, and we don't have to go into too much detail here, but he's saying, I was wondering how you guys go about learning rule sets and code and how you develop some of your strategies. So I will say, I mean, I'm nowhere near as deep into code as you guys are. So for me, how do I learn code? a lot of times it's the reveal streams it's watching other people play the game other people that I know that have gotten it when I got Toy Story luckily Zach came and dropped it off and showed me how to play the game it was actually explaining it to me and so that's how I get the beginning of the game or a lot of the basics of how to work through it and then once I have questions luckily Travis owned it so I could ask him it's very I rely on streams or I rely on asking my friends. But most of the time, I'm just trying to learn just how to get through it. I don't really care about points. It's just more progression, thoughts, that kind of stuff. So that's how I do it. Now, the two of you guys are totally different. You guys are attacking games from a much more critical, analytical thought, and then also trying to figure out strategies that you can use in tournaments. So if you guys want to explain your thought, I mean, let's go ahead and start with Tom. When you have a brand-new game that's dropped off, where do you start, and how do you attack it on trying to figure out a strategy? I just try to keep it as simple as I can, just learn the different modes and multiballs. I try not to get too in-depth with stuff just because, you know, just kind of break down into just some simple things that I can remember and take it from there. do you feel like it's like homework in a way because it's sometimes it depends on the game though like you know maybe like Godzilla you know that that's a little more involved than say Deadpool yeah but do you I mean you get you get the LE so you don't get the you know most of the time the pros those get on location like once a game's announced in your head do you have like all right, I have roughly three weeks before there's a chance that I'm going to have to play this in a tournament. Like, do you feel any pressure to really try to learn these games quick? Sometimes. It just depends on the games. I mean, if they're games I'm not familiar with, then, yeah, there's a lot of pressure. I'll look up, like, YouTube videos and other streamers, other tournaments that have had them, just to try to understand what's going on in a game I've never played. Sure. Okay. And then, Travis, I know on multiple podcasts ago you said you take off the glass and start hitting switches and play that game. So go for it. What's your unboxing experience or once you've done your initial flips, how do you start really dissecting a game? So I guess we're basically jumping to after I play the game for a little while. I mean, we can back up if you want. No, that's fine. I'm just making sure. So, yeah. Well, essentially, the way that I go through a game is when I first get it, I don't really pay too close attention to the rules when I see people playing it on reveal streams, just because it's the most basic code for it, and it's going to change a little bit when you get it. So when I don't pay too close attention, I'm more concerned about the shot geometry and stuff like that. The main thing that I try to figure out early on is where do I start the modes, where can I start my multiballs, and where are the multipliers at? You figure out those three things, that'll get you a long ways because then it becomes about putting those three things together, right? So whenever I generally start figuring out a rule set, then I start breaking it down. Okay, what mode, what shots gel well with certain multiballs? because I like to see shots that you hit one shot, but you get two things for it. Like you might get multiball progression and you get mode progression at the same time. So those are things that I generally look for whenever I'm trying to figure out how to play a pin competitively. Now, in terms of knowing exactly what to do and kind of formulating from there, I actually do a couple of things. I do flashcards and I actually write out the modes. So that way I know what's going on. So if I read what the mode is or I figure out what the mode is, I'll just take the glass off. I will hit switches and then I figure out, OK, here's a sequence of shots. So my goal is, is to figure out not how much something's worth. I mean, generally, you'll you'll just kind of know like what's worth more than what. But I'm not really concerned about exact numbers. I'm more concerned about what are sequences. And I like finding the shots in which it's the most accessible types of shots to get to. I know there are players like Escher that they know the exact point values in their head. So if they're like, I'm down by 25,000, he like does the math in his head of I need this shot, this shot, this shot, and then I'll have 27,000. Oh, yeah. It's insane. You'll do that. Escher is kind of like Michael Jordan, you know. He's kind of like, okay, I'm going to hit that shot off of that shot and do this, and then I'm going to win the game. Yep. I mean, and you get there eventually. I mean, you play a game enough, you start to realize the approximate value of those shots. Like you know the approximate value of the jackpots. You know what happens when you multiply something. You know the approximate value of a super jackpot. And so, I mean, in all reality, if you're starting out, that's just how I like to do it. Like everybody's going to have their own way doing it. And so there's going to be, you just got to kind of find the way that works for you. Me personally, I like figuring out the modes on my own, just hitting switches. And then from there, I'll write it out on a notebook. And then I just distill the information downward. So I'll read through it. And then I'll write down exactly what that mode does. What shots am I looking for? But what is the sequence of shots? And so once I do that, then that's when I turn over to the flashcards, which is basically this is where I get fancy, Joel, right here. It's all about space repetition. And so I use flashcards online, and I'll just write it out, and I'm able to basically use a program. I think it's zorbi.com that I use. It's like Z-O-R-B-I.com. Shout out to them. I don't get any money. So there you go. But I use them so basically then I can tell like what – or I can basically make a note card, right? And I can choose to try to answer it and then I know whether or not I'm very good at that or I'm horrible at it. So I can say, well, I don't know it at all. I just hit a number and then it keeps bringing it up in my notes over and over and over again. But if I know it and I put down that I know it, like I put the option as like I know exactly what this is, it'll put it way back in my notes to where it won't come up for a while. So I can train this for like 5, 10, 15 minutes at a time. And I know it sounds like a lot of work, but the reality is I love knowing what to do. I love figuring out rule sets. And the reality is all these players at tournaments, all the top-level players, they're very good. They're studying, yeah. Yes, and so if you don't know what to aim for, you're basically just flipping your way around to what? So, yeah, I mean, I like to know how to score the points. So that's a big part of it for me, and I just kind of view pinball as chess, and that's what I look for. So once I start figuring out how the modes work, that's where I start piecing that puzzle together and seeing what gels well with what, what multiball goes with what mode. And that's what I'm looking for. And then I solidify my path or my roadmap based off that, and I find what my strategy is. That's exactly how I play modern games. I'm picturing you doing your flashcards with somebody like Chris Farley on Billy Madison. That is correct. That is correct. Yep. Nope. Just all flashcards online and just writing down notes and then just distilling them to the easiest way to understand them and repeat. So the easiest way, I will tell you guys why, and Joel, this will help you a ton. I promise you this will help you a ton, and this will help anybody else a ton that's listening. If you're struggling with rule sets, try to learn them in a way that you know that you're going to teach it to somebody else. That's the easiest way to learn these rule sets because if you get it down, if you can explain it to somebody else and you could try to teach it to somebody else, you're going to fully start understanding what it all is. So that helps as well. And plus, I will admit, I'm in some competitive chat groups, and that helps as well. We talk back and forth about the rules. We talk back and forth about the strategies. All of this tells you how to do it. Yeah, I get it. Oh, yeah. Well, if you're not in one of my chat groups, then please, please text me, add me to yours, and we'll get it sorted out. Because I love talking strategy. I love talking rules. I mean, Tom sees it. Sometimes we all go on tangents in the middle of the afternoon and just start going back and forth on a certain game. Well, I do it like this. Well, I do it like that. Well, why not just do it like this? And I'm just like, F this. I'm going to go get a beer. I don't even want to play the game right now. Ray Day has a Discord. I've hopped in that a few times and realized very quickly I'm not welcome there. I think so. I'm not welcome. I should keep my mouth shut and try to blend in. But, no, it's a great Discord, by the way. If anybody, any competitive players I know, and then IU Pinball, obviously, Carl D'Python Anghelo. There's some really good Discords out there if you just want to read. Tilt forums, obviously. Tilt forums. That's a good one. Yeah. Just get with people and talk about it. Like, if you can find people that like talking pinball strategy, not just skills, but like talking about the rules, I mean, that goes a long ways. You'll learn a lot. I've learned the most by simply just shutting up and listening to players that are better than me, listening to players that have won Pinberg or have won a Stern Pro Circuit. You know, that goes a long ways. There's a lot of people out there with a lot of knowledge, and they're able to fill in the gaps for, you know, anytime you have a question, I promise you a lot of players are very approachable. Just simply ask. I know if I'm at a tournament and you see me and you got a question about a game, come up and ask. I'm not going to hide the information. I mean, there's just, you know, there's just no point. Are you going to share your note cards with them? I mean, maybe. I don't know. I have shared my note cards with some people. I have. I have, yeah. Nice. Well, I hope, John, if you're listening, I hope that answered your question. But it sounds like you've got to do a little bit of homework. I mean, props to you. I mean, you're a top 25 player, and I'm glad. You know, you've got to put in work to do it. That's the one thing. The more that I've talked with you guys and done this podcast with you guys, I didn't realize how often, one, you guys were traveling. Like, to be a top player, you have to travel. You have to keep playing in tournaments. You have to keep getting those whoppers to keep, you know, because everybody else is. You know your top players. It is clearly something you guys are good at. You're passionate about it. Not to mention there's constantly new games coming out. You're constantly having to learn new stuff, yet keep skills of older machines all the way back to EMs. I mean, there's a lot to it. You don't just, like, one day just mistakenly become, you know, a top-tier player. You guys are putting in work, and there's no doubt about it. So, props to you guys. It's a lot of fun to do, too. I mean, tournaments, of course, the tournaments themselves are fun. You know, being able to play pinball is fun. Yeah. But getting to hang out with people, that is a lot of fun. I mean, some of the most fun times I've had is after the tournaments, going to the bar or going to a restaurant and having a beer or going to the parking lot and having a beer. I mean, that's some of the most fun times I've had. I mean, hell, there's been when Tom was running his pinball camps at his house, some of the most fun times was just 1 a.m., 2 a.m. in the morning. Just recapping the day. Talking pinball. Talking anything else. When's the next camp, Tom? I'm ready. Cleepin, Joel. People just invite themselves, Joel. I don't even. All right. I'll tell my wife. What's this on the calendar? Oh, I'm going to Tom's house. So Joel, I won't name any names, but last time we were at Cleepin, I'll put this in perspective. We were outside the hotel. I think it was like, it was easily midnight, past midnight. and somebody was literally getting, like, Sharpie images just drawn, or somebody's using a Sharpie to draw all over somebody's shirtless, and everybody was, like, writing their names and drawing, like, big-ass pictures on them and stuff like that. It's stuff like that that's dumb as hell, but that's the memories that get built, though. I'm sure you remember Expo, you know, when you guys were out there. Oh, it's great, yeah. Every show I've gone to is literally just for the people. You play a handful of games. It's just to go to hang out with people. So this community is awesome. Pinball is very social. People have these amazing collections, and they just want to share with other people. So it doesn't surprise me at all that, you know, your tournaments, you guys are having a great time. Well, yeah. Pinball's fun, Joel. It's just a lot more fun when Raymond Davidson isn't kicking the dog shit out of you. I'll catch it. There we go. Thank you. There we go. All right. Well, we'll wrap it up there. Another solid two-hour podcast of no real pinball news. Well, I mean, we had the TNA reveal, but, yeah, good stuff. We talked TNA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you gave your sterling review of Toy Story 4. We have talked about all of our points. Indiana Beach on the river. We had a lot of good – there's good stuff there. It's a river. I'm going to send you that picture after the podcast, and you're going to have to make a correction at the beginning of the next podcast. Just wait. All right. Well, we'll wrap it up. Tom, go ahead. Plug away, man. Hi, I'm Tom. I like pinball. I do. I'm Travis. Fox Cities Pinball. Oh, shit. He's still going. That is all. Fox Cities Pinball. Yes. Check them out. Great streams. Thank you, Tom. Like always, thanks for being here. Travis, plug all the things you don't have. You don't plug anything anymore. I'm Travis, and I also, too, like pinball, and I sometimes do show up on Fox Cities as well. I also show up on Joel's podcast, just another pinball podcast. I'm not invited to that anymore. But I will be having more videos coming out on my personal YouTube channel pretty soon, as soon as Stern decides to release the next game. Is it Marv Loco? Or are you changing your personal? No, no, it's still Marv Loco. But I do. So I'll give a hint. I'm not going to name it out yet, but I am doing a lot of pinball content coming up very soon for my current job. So all of that's going to start rolling out very soon. And everybody will know what it is. If we're going to stick with your normal naming conventions, I'm assuming your new YouTube channel will be called Pinball Content. Do you have anything? Pinball Content. When they Google it, Pinball Content, it'll be like pinball video. I don't know, whatever. It probably will be. I don't know. Yeah. Well, don't strain yourself on being creative. All right. Yeah, and I'm Joel. I stream every Wednesday night on the Pinball Network under Flip N Out Pinball, and then I also stream every other Thursday on the Flip N Out Pinball stream. Obviously, we have the Triple Drain Pinball Podcast, which is what you're listening to now, and then just another Pinball Podcast whenever I get around to that. Hopefully, we'll have some interviews. I had an interview lined up, and it was with a Stern designer, and they said, well, you know what? Let's wait until the next reveal so we can talk about the game. that was a while ago that was well over a month ago so i was definitely under the impression that it's like oh it'll be like a week or two nope still waiting so i don't know we'll get there we'll get there but um but yeah thanks to all the listeners please if there's anything we can do for you guys email us at triple drain at gmail.com um we actually have some new merch in the works more to talk about we're pretty excited about that so hopefully that'll come out in the next I don't know. It may be a little while because we're waiting on the artist. We won't do any nude photos, though. Sorry. No nude photos. Bummer, right? I have an OnlyFans. We've talked about this before. Yeah, Travis is an OnlyFans. You've got to plug it, man. It's pricey, but you can plug it. No, it's like Fight Club. You barely even talk about it. Oh, don't talk about it. Okay, I got it. All right, well, that's all I've got. Appreciate you, too. Yeah, like always, Tom, you've got the last words. Good night, people. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v3)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: ecb7760a-7966-4e96-9161-d89d68d25e08*