# TOPCast 15: James Loflin **Source:** TOPCast - This Old Pinball **Type:** podcast_episode **Published:** 2007-03-16 **Duration:** 58m 0s **Beat:** Pinball **URL:** http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/showget.php?id=15 --- ## Analysis James Loflin of Pinball Inc. in Atlanta discusses his 40+ year journey in the pinball and amusement industry, from arcade technician in the late 1970s through Six Flags and Bally, to founding his own service and parts manufacturing business. He details the genesis of Pinball Inc.'s BMD HBP high-voltage power supply board for WPC Williams games and the transition into manufacturing thermoformed plastic ramps (starting with Whitewater's Whirlpool ramp). He also reveals an alliance with Gene Cunningham's Illinois Pinball and others to access legacy ramp tooling and coordinate parts reproduction efforts. ### Key Claims - [HIGH] James Loflin founded Pinball Inc. and developed the BMD HBP board, a plug-and-play high-voltage power supply bypass for Williams WPC dot-matrix games, retailing for approximately $65. — _James Loflin, direct statement about his product and company_ - [HIGH] The BMD HBP board design incorporates a current-limiting circuit that acts as a circuit breaker to prevent dot-matrix display failures and indicates when a display has failed due to excessive current draw. — _James Loflin explaining the technical design of his flagship product_ - [HIGH] Pinball Inc.'s first plastic ramp product was the Whirlpool ramp for Whitewater, produced via thermoforming using PETG plastic heated to approximately 400 degrees, with tooling costs of $3,500 for a run of 200 pieces. — _James Loflin detailing the first ramp production run and costs_ - [HIGH] The Whitewater Whirlpool ramp run had approximate total out-of-pocket costs of $8,000 and generated approximately $200,000 in revenue. — _James Loflin providing financial data on the first ramp production_ - [HIGH] An alliance called NAPA was formed between James Loflin (Pinball Inc.), Gene Cunningham (Illinois Pinball), Cary Stare, and Darren Jacobs to coordinate ramp production and access legacy tooling. — _James Loflin explaining the origin of the alliance through conversation with Cary Stare during Big Bang Bar work_ - [MEDIUM] Williams shut down its pinball manufacturing operations around 2001, prompting James Loflin to transition from selling used machines to manufacturing replacement parts. — _James Loflin discussing the timing of Williams' closure and his business pivot_ - [HIGH] The home pinball service business in Atlanta (late 1980s) was underserved, with no dedicated technicians servicing machines in residential settings, only commercial operators. — _James Loflin reflecting on market conditions that led him to expand Music and Games service business_ - [HIGH] Gene Cunningham deliberately keeps the parts manufacturing alliance open-ended and has brought in additional partners including Canadian playfield manufacturers and the Creature from Black Lagoon hologram project. — _James Loflin describing Gene's approach to the NAPA alliance_ ### Notable Quotes > "I'm more inclined to want freedom over security... I've never in 20 years looked back and said, gee, I wish I had a job." > — **James Loflin**, ~24:00 > _Reflects his decision to leave corporate employment to pursue self-employment in pinball full-time in 1987_ > "The supply line was now going to dry up in about two to four years... we decided that we needed to go into the parts business." > — **James Loflin**, ~48:00 > _Explains the strategic pivot to manufacturing parts as a response to Williams' closure and the end of the used machine supply cycle_ > "My board would simply shut down... act basically as a circuit breaker at that point. So if you installed our board and your display no longer works, then you know the display has drawn too much current." > — **James Loflin**, ~40:00 > _Technical explanation of the BMD HBP board's protective design innovation_ > "The one product that we needed as much as anything but were no longer able to get were the plastic ramps." > — **James Loflin**, ~45:00 > _Identifies the market need that led him to approach Brian Steinecker about ramp manufacturing_ > "It was something that there's not a lot of people involved in parts manufacturing in the pinball business... It's something that there's an open-ended group." > — **James Loflin**, ~70:00 > _Describes the collaborative, open philosophy of the parts manufacturing alliance with Gene Cunningham_ ### Entities | Name | Type | Context | |------|------|---------| | James Loflin | person | Founder and operator of Pinball Inc. in Atlanta, Georgia; designer of BMD HBP board and manufacturer of thermoformed plastic ramps for pinball machines | | Gene Cunningham | person | Owner of Illinois Pinball; possesses legacy ramp tooling from Williams/Bally; formed parts manufacturing alliance with James Loflin and others | | Cary Stare | person | Pinball industry figure who worked on Big Bang Bar; introduced James Loflin to Gene Cunningham and facilitated the NAPA alliance formation | | Darren Jacobs | person | Parts manufacturing alliance member who met with James Loflin and Gene Cunningham to establish NAPA | | Brian Steinecker | person | Plastics engineer whom James Loflin consulted about manufacturing thermoformed plastic ramps | | Mike DeMoya | person | Opened Music and Games retail store in Atlanta in 1987; partnered with James Loflin; business closed around 1992 | | Hugh Harrison | person | Six Flags interview manager who hired James Loflin; shared mutual interest in The Who band | | Pinball Inc. | company | James Loflin's company founded circa 1999-2001; manufactures BMD HBP high-voltage power supply boards and thermoformed plastic ramps for Williams WPC era pinball machines | | Illinois Pinball | company | Gene Cunningham's company; holds legacy ramp tooling from Williams/Bally; partner in the NAPA parts manufacturing alliance | | Music and Games Incorporated | company | James Loflin's company formed in late 1980s; provided service and sales of pinball machines, jukeboxes, and video games in Atlanta area; evolved into Pinball Inc. | | Six Flags Amusement Services | company | James Loflin's employer starting 1979-1980; operated game rooms across the United States; bought out by Bally in mid-1982/1983 | | Williams Electronics | company | Major pinball manufacturer; ceased operations around 2001; legacy tooling now held by Illinois Pinball | | Bally Manufacturing | company | Acquired Six Flags amusement division in 1982-1983; offered James Loflin relocation to Chicago, which he declined | | Aladdin's Castle | company | Amusement game operator; acquired Six Flags' repair operations and game routing after Bally buyout | | Marco Specialties | company | Pinball parts reseller mentioned as alternative business model to manufacturing | | Pinball Resource | company | Pinball parts reseller mentioned as alternative business model to manufacturing | | Bay Area Amusements | company | Pinball parts reseller mentioned as competitor in the parts distribution market | | Whitewater | game | Williams pinball game; subject of Pinball Inc.'s first plastic ramp products (Whirlpool, Bigfoot, canyon ramps) | | Big Bang Bar | game | Pinball game project with which Cary Stare worked; facilitated introduction between James Loflin and Gene Cunningham | | Whirlwind | game | Williams pinball game; Pinball Inc. manufactures Whirlwind Topper ramp using legacy tooling from Gene Cunningham | | Earthshaker | game | Williams pinball game; Pinball Inc. manufactures Spiral Ramp using legacy tooling with minor modifications | | Black Hole | game | Gottlieb pinball game; James Loflin's first repair assignment at Six Flags (causing power supply damage due to crossed wires) | | Creature from Black Lagoon | game | Pinball game project; hologram variant partnered with Gene Cunningham's alliance | | NAPA | organization | Parts manufacturing and reproduction alliance formed circa 2001-2002 between James Loflin (Pinball Inc.), Gene Cunningham (Illinois Pinball), Cary Stare, and Darren Jacobs; designed to coordinate ramp and parts production | ### Topics - **Primary:** Pinball Inc. product line: BMD HBP board and plastic ramps, History of the amusement industry (1979-present) and pinball's place within it, Alliance with Gene Cunningham and Illinois Pinball; NAPA organization, Thermoforming technology and manufacturing processes for plastic ramps, Williams Electronics' closure and its impact on the used machine supply cycle - **Secondary:** Entrepreneurship and business transition from service to manufacturing, Jukebox and video game markets and their decline, Dot-matrix controller board failures in WPC-era Williams games ### Sentiment **Positive** (0.82) — James Loflin speaks fondly of his career trajectory, expresses pride in his business independence, and demonstrates enthusiasm for the pinball hobby and collaborative partnerships. No significant negative sentiment expressed; discussion is retrospective and celebratory of industry history and growth. ### Signals - **[product_launch]** Pinball Inc. launched the BMD HBP high-voltage power supply bypass board for Williams WPC games around 2001, addressing a widespread design flaw in dot-matrix controllers. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'Pinball, Inc. was a product when, in 2001, I started working on a board that we still sell, the BMD HBP board.' - **[product_launch]** Pinball Inc. transitioned to manufacturing thermoformed plastic ramps starting with the Whitewater Whirlpool ramp, with subsequent ramps for Whirlwind, Earthshaker, and other WPC-era games. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'The first ramp was the whirlpool ramp for Whitewater... I just decided to sit down and design a piggyback board... And I guess that was one of the reasons that I was able to go in that direction.' - **[business_signal]** Formation of NAPA alliance (circa 2001-2002) between Pinball Inc. (James Loflin), Illinois Pinball (Gene Cunningham), and others to coordinate legacy tooling access and parts manufacturing. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'within a month, Darren Jacobs, myself, and Kerry met with Gene at Gene's place and sat down and worked out the rough draft of what is now some people know as NAPA.' - **[market_signal]** Williams Electronics closure around 2001 created supply shortage of replacement parts, particularly plastic ramps, forcing operators and collectors to seek aftermarket solutions. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'Williams was closing down... the supply line was going to dry up in about two to four years... the one product that we needed as much as anything but were no longer able to get were the plastic ramps.' - **[manufacturing_signal]** Pinball Inc. uses thermoforming (PETG plastic heated to ~400°F) with CNC routing to manufacture replacement ramps; tooling cost ~$3,500 per ramp design; production cost ~$40/unit including materials and labor. (confidence: high) — James Loflin detailing production methodology: 'you heat up the sheet of plastic... roughly 400 degrees... vacuum is engaged... then the CNC router... trim the plastic to the form that you desire.' - **[product_concern]** Williams WPC dot-matrix controller boards suffered from a design flaw causing them to burn out when displays drew excessive current; the flaw increased in severity the more current the circuit drew. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'a large percentage of them had that controller board burn up... we realized there was a design flaw. And the more current it drew, the more that it damaged the controller board.' - **[operational_signal]** Used pinball machines typically cycled through operators over 5-6 years: premier arcades → street operators (bars/restaurants) → convenience stores → direct consumers/collectors. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'They had gone through the premier arcades, and then they had gone to the second level of operator... the bars, the restaurants, et cetera. And then after that, they went to the third tier operator... the convenience stores... that life cycle was about five or six years.' - **[business_signal]** Jukebox market collapsed during the 1990s-2000s due to CD and MP3 players, forcing James Loflin to shift his business focus entirely to pinball machines. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'the jukeboxes... the home CD players and eventually the MP3 players eventually just completely crushed the jukebox market... It's really now about as dead a market as you can get it.' - **[personnel_signal]** James Loflin transitioned from arcade technician (1979) → computer industry (1984-1987) → pinball service technician (1987-2001) → parts manufacturer (2001-present), reflecting broader industry career patterns. (confidence: high) — James Loflin's chronological narrative of career moves across the podcast - **[community_signal]** Pinball parts manufacturing community emphasizes open-ended alliance model rather than competitive exclusion; Gene Cunningham actively recruiting new partners to NAPA. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'Gene has made an effort to bring other people into the fold... He's brought the Canadian guys in... He's brought in the creature from Black Lagoon Hologram Project... Gene has, I know in my case, allowed me to still basically work independently.' - **[manufacturing_signal]** Legacy Williams ramp tooling held by Illinois Pinball varies in condition; some require minimal cleaning/polishing, while others have dents and gates requiring repairs; none are immediately ready for production. (confidence: high) — James Loflin: 'Some of the tools, when William shipped them, they didn't take the best of care, so they have little dings in them here and there... In some cases, we're having to really... repair.' --- ## Transcript Hi there, pinball fans! It's your favorite clown, Krusty, and you're listening to Norman Shaggy on the TopCast, the greatest pinball show ever made! Ugh, can I get my money now? I'm such a whore. You're listening to TopCast, this old pinball's online radio. For more information, visit them anytime. www.marvin3m.com slash TopCast. Okay, welcome to TopCast tonight, another weekday interview edition. Tonight we're going to be talking to a gentleman that remanufactures parts for 1990s dot matrix style pinball games. And he's got kind of an interesting history in the business. And he also works closely with Gene Cunningham in Illinois Pinball. and they kind of have an alliance. So we're going to talk to him right now. Special guest. Special guest. Special guest. Special guest. Okay, so we're about to give James Laughlin of Pinball Inc. in Atlanta, Georgia, a call on the phone. Give him a buzz right now. I'm here. Let's make sure he's there. James, hi. How are you doing tonight, James? I'm doing great. How about yourself? I'm doing good. Thank you very much. So, James, you are the guy, the man behind all these plastic replacement ramps at Pinball Inc. in Atlanta, Georgia, right? Correct. Okay. So why don't we back up before we start talking about your current product line and your association with your alliance, I should say, with Gene Cunningham. Why don't we back up, why don't you tell us a little bit about your history in pinball, how you got into it, you know, your first thoughts and cravings for it. As far as pinball itself, it's something that I, like a lot of the people that are involved in the hobby, played as a kid, a teenager, at the local arcades back when arcades were prevalent. And in those arcades, pinball machines were actually prevalent. And through the years, just continued to play mostly electromechanical, because not to age myself, that's the era that I grew up in. And do you remember the first games that you played? What's that? Do you remember the titles of the first games you played? Well, it was the mid-'70s, early to mid-'70s. 70s. Games like Grand Prix, Wizard, Captain Fantastic are ones that I remember well. Some of the Gottliebs were at our local arcade. We had one that was about three miles from my house, so I was able to go up there on a frequent basis. But I would say back then My actual favorite was Grand Prix when it came out. And how old were you when all this was going on, when you first got involved? Mid-70s. I started out 12 years old, 72, through 75, 76. When I got my driver's license, I sort of ventured on into other things, as they say, which was in 1976. And do you remember the video game craze? uh yeah the video game craze actually is where i came into the business uh i as i get out of high school and uh went uh into the job field uh as i was going through school um i went to work for six flags amusement centers and that was in 1979 1980 and of course that's when the pac-man craze started coming in and uh yeah video games really got big of course uh pong had been out for a while but when the video craze got into the billion dollar business uh when pac-man and and of course it's uh the ms pac-man uh came out that's when it uh i went into and i went to work for uh six flags amusement services. And they had game rooms all over the country. So you, right out of high school, you went for the throat and went right into it? Yeah, I lucked into it, I guess. It was something I saw in the paper. I had been technically oriented or inclined in high school. Electronics and electrical and mechanical things were a hobby of mine. And so when I saw an ad in the newspaper for an opening position for technician, I went down and applied and got the position. And at that time, I was going to college, going to Southern Tech to get my electronics degree. And so it really fit in well. The two of them were very close to each other as far as logistics go. So it was easy. It was a perfect match for me. It was something that was a hobby of mine. At the same time, it was part of my studies. Now, did you have any experience when you went in for that interview? No, not experience as far as, well, I take that back. I tinkered around with the electromechanical machines at the arcade. I did get to know the guy that worked there, and so when he would open up a machine, I'd help tinker around with him. And again, it was something that I was mechanically oriented as a kid. I was always working on stuff, or as my parents would say, I was always tearing stuff apart. so that was part of it from remembering the interview of course that was years and years ago the interview was with a gentleman Hugh Harrison I remember him because he was a big Who fan and at the same time I was a Who fan so him and I clicked it was something that we were able to sit down to talk, and I guess that helped in the interview. So anyway, I got the job, and it, I guess, gave me the start into the industry or into the business. So what was your first repair? With Six Flags. Yeah, with Six Flags. I mean, was it video game or pinball? Yeah, well, let me think back on that. I remember what it was. It was a Gottlieb black hole. It wasn't really a repair. It was a shop out, but it turned into a repair after I got through with it because of something that I did, but we won't go into that. No, let's go into that. What did you do? Come on. Spill the beans. Well, somehow or another, I somehow crossed one wire with another wire and I ended up having to repair power supplies. I thought I was going to get canned from my first job the first weekend to it. But that was, it consisted of six flags, of course, that had game rooms all over the country, and they had just opened one up at Acres Mill Shopping Mall here in Atlanta, and they sent me over there to train with a manager, and he said, well, this is how we shop out a pinball machine. And he took the glass off and he got a phone call right about the time he slid the glass off and started showing me how to remove the rubber rings. Well, I, being the one to make an impression, wanted to continue with the job while he was on the phone and somehow another crossed the, if I remember, it was the general illumination wires with the coil wires. and shorted out the bridge rectifier on the power supply. So we ended up having to make a repair from there. But that was my inauguration into working in the business of pinball machines. Was he pretty mad? Oh, no, no. He laughed about it. So did he know immediately what was wrong and, you know, so it wasn't too bad? Well, when he came by there, of course, I had that stuck-on stupid look on my face. He asked me what happened because, of course, Gottlieb's would shut down. He just looked at me and I said, well, I did this and I did that. So we just got the meter out and started troubleshooting. It was just another typical day at the office, I guess. So now how long did you stay with this job? Six flights. Yes, they were bought out by Bally, of all companies, in 19, I want to say it was 1982, late 82, mid-82 to 83. And when Bally bought out Six Flags, they wanted me to move to Chicago. And I was still in school and didn't want to move because they were shutting down the repair facility that Six Flags had in Atlanta. And so they were going to take everything and turn it over to the Aladdin's Castle group and move any... They made a few offers to some of the people to move to Chicago, and it just wasn't in the cards for me to move to Chicago. So I just actually at that time became a freelance technician for the local operators. and so I did that for a couple of years until I finished school and went into the computer field for a few years. When you were doing the freelance for the operators, how did that go? I mean, any interesting stories? Do you remember the rate of pay? It was just typically I got to know some of the, with Six Flags, Six Flags would sell some of the machines to the operators as they cycled them through the game rooms. And so I got to know some of the local operators, and even while I worked for Six Flags, I worked for some of these operators on the side, making a little bit of money, and just doing some freelance work. So when I saw that Six Flags was shutting down, and I had the choice of either going to Chicago or staying in Atlanta, I chose to stay in Atlanta, and I just networked with the operators that I got to know and did a lot of freelance work, and that got me through school. Do you remember what you were getting paid per hour for the freelance stuff? Oh, yeah, yeah. It was just they'd call me up and say, hey, we've got a game over at this convenience store. Some of them had small arcades, and I would just go out and repair the machines. But you don't remember your dollar rate? At that time, it was $25 an hour. That's pretty good. Yeah, but I never really charged. If I worked for three hours, I usually only charged for two hours. I usually would give away a little bit of my time, it seems. But it got me, as I said, through school. And after I left school, I went into the computer field, worked on CAD CAM computers, laser cutters, and the apparel industry, actually. And kept really lost touch with the amusement industry and the pinball industry. And what year was this? What year was this that you got into the CAD CAM stuff? Looking back on it, that would have been in 84. Okay. And 84, 85, and for, let me see if I can get my math straight. Yeah, 84, 85. So for a couple of years, I just basically concentrated on the computer field and didn't really do anything for, I'd say, almost three years. Didn't do anything in the amusement part of it. really had the intentions of going forward with a computer career. And in 1987, I just so happened to be flipping through the newspaper and saw an ad in there that somebody was looking for part-time work to work on antique jukeboxes and pinball machines and video games for a company that was just starting up to retail jukeboxes, pinballs, video games. They were mainly a billiard retailer or were going to be a billiard retailer. They were just opening up their store. And Mike DeMoya was the gentleman's name. And I went down and interviewed with him. He told me, yeah, just a couple hours a week. What they intended to do was sell a few pinball machines, a few jukeboxes, a few video games. They just needed somebody to really support it as warranty work. So I said, why not? I wanted to sort of get back into the old hobby. So it didn't interfere with your computer job then at that point? Yeah, I was still working in the computer field at that time. So what, and that just expanded and you eventually, you know, started doing it full-time again or something? Well, what happened is Mike DeMoria opened up his store. I within six months I actually incorporated Music and Games Incorporated or Music and Games Service Incorporated while he incorporated under his the store was Music and Games Service Incorporated while he incorporated under the store was Music and Games Incorporated And so we basically started companies together and had an agreement. And I didn't take long to recognize that in the Atlanta area, there were no service technicians servicing machines in the home environment. There were plenty of them out there servicing the commercial operator, but none servicing the home environment. And we started getting, I can't say deluged or inundated, but we were getting more and more calls for people requesting to have service in home. And so at first I tried to hire a few people, and that didn't really work out. So eventually, shortly after I got married, I was sort of pressed into the decision of, do I continue on working until midnight? Because at that point, that's what I was doing. I'd work full-time during the day, and my extra service at night would take me sometimes into midnight. And so I had to make that choice. Do I continue to work at midnight or give up one or the other? and by that time I was actually getting bored with the computer business. It was just something that really wasn't a hobby or something that I was truly interested in. I really got bored with computers and so I made the decision to quit my, as I call it, quit my last real job and go into the hobby full time. In what year was this? That was 20 years ago, 1987. And looking back on it, were you ever sorry you did that? No. It's something that working for yourself is something I've never, never regretted. I tell people it's a little daunting if you're used to collecting a paycheck because you have that security of the paycheck coming in, but at the same time you don't have the freedom. And I'm, I guess, more inclined to want freedom over security. And I've never in 20 years looked back and said, gee, I wish I had a job. It's just been something that I couldn't see myself working for somebody else. That's just not in my nature. So from 1987, you started this company, and you were basically a full-time tech now. Yes. And what was the next step? How long did you do that for? The number of years may be a little bit skewed, but I would say music and games, the company Mike DeMoya started, was mainly a billiard retail outlet. And I worked alongside of him and grew the music game service business. And I would say that it was 1989 that, and I'll take that back, the year of the first Gulf War. I'm trying to remember if that was 19... Yeah, that was 91, the beginning of 91, I think. Yeah, I was going to say 90 or 91. Yeah, the end of 90, beginning of 91. Yeah, if people that were around remember that time, that's when we were going through sort of a recession. And Mike's company started to falter for various reasons, the economy, management, money management, whatever the reasons were, his company started to falter and he ended up closing down. And I would say that that was in 92 because it was the year of the election. So that was 92. So he closed down Music and Games and I broke off at that point and moved to an area by the Atlanta airport and opened up my own little shop. and at that time started selling pinball machines for the first time instead of just servicing because I was no longer working with Mike, who was doing sales. I never wanted to compete with him when I was working with him or in conjunction with him. So I never sold any machines. But when I broke off, or when he closed down, I broke off, opened up my shop in Haightville, Georgia, started selling machines for myself. And at that time, it was actually, I was selling and working more with jukeboxes, antique jukeboxes, than I was with pinball machines. The ratio was about three to one. So like 50s jukeboxes, you know, like Wurlitzers and Seaburks type stuff? Exactly. Antique Wurlitzer, antique Seaburks, the 50s Seaburks, the 40s Wurlitzers, and some contemporary stuff. At that time, the CD jukeboxes were just starting to come around, come into the marketplace. I worked a little bit on that. But the pinball machines, about a third of my business at that time was pinball machines. And over the next few years, the pinball machines became more and more popular, more and more in demand by the customers. and the jukeboxes is the home CD players and eventually the MP3 players eventually just completely crushed the jukebox market and wiped it out to nothing. It's really now about as dead a market as you can get it. Jukeboxes are long gone as far as being a vibrant business. So over the next six years, say, I transitioned into mainly pinball machines and a few video games. Now, when did you get this idea for Pinball Inc.? Pinball, Inc. was a product when, in 2001, I started working on a board that we still sell, the BMD HBP board. And that, I had incorporated Pinball, Inc. a couple of years prior. You know, we should just say that that board goes in Williams WPC games. It's a high-voltage power supply. For a dot matrix WPC game, if you blow out the high voltage, this thing just four screws. It sits right on top of the existing dot matrix controller, a couple connectors, and boing, you're good to go. It was fairly inexpensive, like $60, I want to say, or something like that. When we first, the first run that we did on those, I want to say it was $65 when we retailed it. If you didn't want to repair the board. It was just a simple plug and play. And the short history on that board was, in our shop, we were working on so many of the, in the late 80s going into the early 90s, the dot matrix, or not 90s, the late 90s, early 2000s. We were working on so many of the Williams games through that period. and a large percentage of them had that controller board burn up on them. And so just a little bit of looking into the engineering of that board, we realized there was a design flaw. And the more current it drew, the more that it damaged the controller board. So getting tired of repairing all these controller boards, I just decided to sit down and design a piggyback board to go over that and bypass that circuit. And so when I did that, we were using it in shop, and I just said, you know, this has to be a viable product in the marketplace. And so that's when Thimble Inc. was basically, the name was dusted off because I had incorporated it a few years ago but never used it. It was just sitting there as sort of a name reserve with the Secretary of State of Georgia because I had seen that Pinball's Music and Games was still the company we operated under, but the music part of it was really starting to fade away, and I had seen that the pinball part was going to be the prevalent company. So just out of, I guess, foresight, I decided to incorporate that name and just put it on the shelf to use later. When I designed that board and put it to the marketplace, that's when Pinball Incorporated became the company that we flew our flag under. And how did you change the design to compensate so that this board, your new board, didn't burn up? Well, the board that we designed, when I designed it, I put a current limiting circuit in there so that when the dot matrix controller started to request, or dot matrix display, I'm sorry, dot matrix display started to request more current from the board, my board would simply shut down. And so we just shut the circuit down and act basically as a circuit breaker at that point. So the board, the way I designed it was sort of, it was a replacement to bypass a faulty circuit, but it also was a board that would tell you if your dot matrix display was going bad. So if you installed our board and your display no longer works, then you know the display has drawn too much current. Okay. Now, what was your next step? because you sold that board for, you know, you still sell it. You know, that was your first product. What was your next product? Well, at that point, I was looking at, well, if I'm going to start selling parts, I had a couple of directions that I could go in. And also at that time, Williams, it was right in that time frame that Williams was closing down. and so I sort of I guess saw the handwriting on the wall that the retail business of buying and selling machines and shopping them out was now going to have a limited lifespan because the supply line was now cut off not necessarily the new supply line but the supply line looking forward five years because the machines that we would deal with in our shop were generally machines that were five to six years old. They had cycled through the operator cycle, as we call it. They had gone through the premier arcades, and then they had gone to the second level of operator, which were the street operators, I called them, the bars, the restaurants, et cetera. And then after that, they went to the third tier operator in most cases, which were the convenience stores. And then at that point, that's when we usually would pick them up. And that life cycle was about five or six years. So in 2001, we were sitting there knowing that the supply line was going to dry up in about two to four years. And so to stay in business, we decided, or I decided, that we needed to go into the parts business. And again, I looked at, well, we've got a choice. We can take the route of a company like the Pinball Resource or Marco or now Bay Area Amusements, companies like that, that take your supply items and also your machine-specific items, and they're resellers of those parts. or we could go the direction of manufacturing. And I talked with an engineer that works for a plastic company about plastic ramps for the pinball machines. And the reason that I looked at that was because, again, the years of shopping out the machines, the one product that we needed as much as anything but were no longer able to get were the plastic ramps. And so I went to talk to Brian Steinecker, who is an engineer in the plastics business, about making plastic ramps. Okay, we'll be right back with James Laughlin of Pinball Inc. after these messages. Think you have what it takes to get out of TopCast? So do we. Truth is, we can't get enough of these personal promos. You know, Hi, this is Rick Swanson. This is Eric A. Hey, this is Cliffy. Hey, this is Curb, and you're listening to... Hey, Finets, this is Mr. Hyden. So if you have a sensational desire to hear yourself plugging TopCast on the virtual radio, and we really hope you do, send the corn an email, and he'll give you instructions on how you can be on the next show. T-H-E-K-O-R-N at T-H-E-K-O-R-N dot net. The corn at the corn dot net. And we'll get you fixed up right away. and probably on the next show. Hey George, I just had to call and tell you about this really great magazine I got. It's called the Ping Game Journal, and it's the only magazine dedicated totally to pinball. It got great articles and interviews with designers and everything No George I won loan you my copy Who knows where you take it to You going to have to go to PingGameJournal and get your own subscription But George, the guy says that each issue will get mailed whenever he feels like it. What's the deal with that? All right, George, I got to go. Got to call Elaine and tell her. I can't believe how good this magazine is. All right, we're back with an interview on TopCast with James Laughlin of Pinball Inc. No plastic experience prior to this then? No, not as far as forming plastics. I had a little bit of a background of knowledge of the chemical compounds and plastics of that nature. But as far as forming, no. CNC routing, yes. Then I had the experience, and that's, I guess, another reason that I looked at that. because with my CAD background, the few years that I was in the computer business, that's what I did is I worked on CAD systems, and I worked on cutting systems. And so I was familiar with CNC cutters and those type systems. And I guess that was one of the reasons that I was able to, yeah, I thought about that direction. So what was your first ramp? The first ramp was the whirlpool ramp for Whitewater. Okay, and why that one? That one for a couple of reasons. Number one, there's no hardware attached to that ramp. It was a simple single-piece ramp. No rivets required, no decals required, which is, of course, another subject matter. It was just a simple form it on the mold, trim it out, and it's ready to go. And exactly how are those made? Are they vacuum formed, I assume? Thermoforming, which is, some people do use the word vacuum forming, but it's a thermoforming in that you heat up the sheet of plastic, and in this case we use a PETG plastic, and you just let it get to what we call the forming temperature, which with PETG is roughly 400 degrees. And then when it's at the forming temperature, the machine drops it down to the tool, and then the vacuum is engaged in it. It pulls it down and forms it to the tool itself, which is the mold. And at that point, you have a rough form, or actually you would call it a complete form. And from there, you have to trim it out using, first you rough cut it using a bandsaw, and then you put it on a fixture that is very similar to the mold itself to hold the plastic on a CNC machine, and then the CNC router, which is generally very much like a hand router that you would use at home, but it's on a five-axis machine, and it is programmed to go around and trim the plastic to the form that you desire, in this case, a whirlpool ramp. So when you do a ramp, how much money is involved in just in the tooling and setting up the CNC? I mean, you know, for any given ramp, it sounds expensive. It's not cheap. The Whirlpool ramp, the tool itself, the mold, and the CNC fixture was $3,500. We ran 200 pieces, and I'm trying to remember the actual cost of the 200 per piece. That was a 24 by 24 sheet of plastic. And at that time, I want to say that the .187 thickness PETG was selling for approximately $45 a sheet. We can round it down to $40 a sheet. so we were able to get two, four, six we got eight parts off of that sheet in the perfect world of course about one out of every six or seven shots were bad shots throwaways, we couldn't use them so in actuality let's say we got six forms off each sheet So each sheet at that time was about, say, $10 worth of plastic. And then you had the cycle time for the machine itself, which has to be taken into it. Which cost, as that machine cycles, it's about another $5 to $8 per cycle. And that includes the CNC cycle along with the forming cycle. so it was about 20 if you rounded up 20 dollars per piece just to form and trip uh the plastic the form and the trim and then you calculate uh about another 20 dollars per if you if you cost average the tooling involved into it so the cost to it was about 40 dollars and we made $200,000. Our out-of-pocket was in the neighborhood of $8,000, if I recall. And you obviously sold them all, right? You sold out. Eventually. It's from that particular piece. The first run of that actually sold out right as we finished the other four ramps for that machine, which was bad on our part. It was something that we... So you couldn't sell like somebody had an entire set of ramps at that point. Yeah. We finally got the other... Sorry about the background there. We finally got around to making the Bigfoot, the lower to upper, upper to lower in the canyon ramp for that. And that was a year and a half ago, I want to say. And so we started making them, and right as we finished up, we realized that we were out of the whirlpool ramp. So here we had four ramps, and we were hoping to have a set of five. So then we had to go back and rerun that particular, we had to go back and rerun the whirlpools. So bad timing on our part. So there was about a two-month delay where we didn't have the complete set of five that we have now. So now you've got, you were originally making the tooling, but now you've got access to Gene Cunningham's supply of ramp tools, is that correct? Correct. And so how did you get this relationship with Gene going, how did this all come about? That was something that was started with Cary Stare, when he went to work helping out with the Bing Bang Bar. Kerry Stare and I have always been good friends since I started the ramps. And we've talked. He's a great guy. He's really been supportive of Pinball Incorporated since we came out and introduced ourselves to the hobby. And when he went to work with Gene on the Big Bang Bar, him and I were talking one night on the phone. and it was brought up that, hey, wouldn't it be great if we could... He was telling me about all the tools that he saw there as far as the ramps, molds and everything. And he suggested that we try to get together and form some sort of an alliance where we can all work together with this. And I was all for it. and he presented it to Gene, who came back and seemed very receptive to it. And so within, I'd say, a month, Darren Jacobs, myself, and Kerry met with Gene at Gene's place and sat down and worked out the rough draft of what is now some people know as NAPA. Okay. And this alliance, were you originally going to try and get more people into the alliance, or you like this kind of close, tight-knit group? No, we never considered it a tight-knit group. And it was intended and still is an open-ended group. It's something that there's not a lot of people involved in parts manufacturing in the pinball business or in the hobby. And Gene has made an effort to bring other people into the fold, which he has. He's brought the Canadian guys in to help him to make playfields. He's brought in the creature from Black Lagoon Hologram Project. He's brought in... He's working with... I'm trying to remember who he was working with on... uh there was uh oh goodness i'm drawing a blank here there was one other company he was working with i want to say on other playfields but i can't recall who that was but genius has tried to keep it open-ended which is what we wanted to do um and while it's open-ended it's something that But Gene has, I know in my case, allowed me to still basically work independently, and I'm still a separate entity, although we work together. And if you need a mold for Gene for a particular ramp, and you get it, I mean, are all these molds from Gene, are they pretty much just plug and play? You just grab one and away you go, or do you have to invest money in refurbishing them or doing any work to them to get them to go? Well, it depends on the tool. We were able to run the Whitewater Topper, excuse me, the Whirlwind Topper, without any modifications or anything. The Earthshaker Spiral Ramp took just a little bit of modification. to it, and not modification, but it really was just nothing more than really cleaning up and polishing up a little bit. With some of the tools, when William shipped them, they didn't take the best of care, so they have little dings in them here and there, so they're going to have to have minor repairs, nothing too serious. And in some cases, we're having to really, in the whirlwind tool, we're having to repair. There's a gate that's actually in that tool that we're having to repair. So it's just varying degrees. But they all need something, whether it's minor or moderate, because the bases of them are either removed. And when I say the bases, you have a wood base that you hook the vacuum up to, and that's just simply screwed onto the tool. And if it's there, if it's on the tool from jeans, we have to take and remove it, put a new one on there because the wood is so old that it just wouldn't handle the vacuum. Or in most cases that we're discovering, that base is already, it's just gone. So we've just got to make up another one, and that's nothing serious. and in some cases they have water cooling lines going through them and we can sometimes use those water cooling lines and sometimes we have to not use them. If we can use them, it speeds up the cycle times of the operation which will help the cost of the ramp or the end cost of the ramp, but it's not that big of a difference. It's really $0.25 to $0.50 per piece. So it's not a big deal if we can or cannot use the water loan. So overall, it sounds like that you've got a pretty good working relationship with Gene then. Yeah, Gene and I, and some people may or may not know the history of Gene and I as far as our relationship goes. And some people have the opinion that since I was making ramps back when Gene was the sole supplier of Williams Valley Parts as far as licensed parts, that Gene and I were basic enemies, if you want to call it that. And that was never the case. Gene and I have always been able to be, we've always gotten along. Even the first year that I went to Expo with the new ramps, Was he thrilled with me making ramps? No. But he never once said, James, you can't do this. We did have discussions about decals, which is a copyright issue. But the ramps themselves, Gene understood, and we talked about it, that they were not copyright issues. and so I felt that Gene was really I appreciated the way Gene treated me really all along because he never really attacked me and tried to get me to stop And in some ways I really feel like he may have respected me a little bit for the undertaking of making parts because it wasn't until I started making these parts that I understood what it really took to make pinball parts and how daunting the task actually is. it's not easy to just tool up and start making parts. It is really quite an undergoing, an undertaking. And I developed a lot of respect for Gene and his undertaking. And at the same time, Gene treated me with the utmost respect. We always had a good relationship. And so I was really happy to actually make it a business, working business relationship as we have now. Now, what about the decals? How did that, because like you said, it's the artwork and there were some concerns with that. How did you get that all straightened out and what issues were there and how did you solve it? Well, of course the issues are that the decals themselves are indeed copyrighted. If you talked to me five years ago, I'd maybe use a little different terminology. But when it comes right down to it, they are a Williams copyright. So as I started making the ramps, I was out searching and beating the streets trying to find original decals. And I found decals. And the suppliers of those decals said they were, quote, unquote, NOS. I took their word for it. Now, that wink, wink, nod, nod, whatever you want to say. And at that time, I was able to find Adams Family decals, Indiana Jones decals, and Star Trek Next Generation decals, and Twilight Zone decals. And it was something that Pinball Incorporated never had or never made any decals, never solicited to have decals made, but we were able to find them. Then, of course, when the opportunity came along to work with Gene, through Gene we're now able to have all the decals that are going forward as we get them made, have them approved by Williams as replacement parts, so they are now approved as replacement parts for Williams pinball machines. Now, when the Australian gentleman came into the picture, did this make life more difficult? or really didn't matter or what? Well, if the time frame was when Wayne came into the picture, I had not officially signed up with Gene, although Carrie and I were talking about it and the thought process was already there. and so to say that I would say that he really had no bearing on what I did now as far as others like Darren Jacobs I would say that he did have a little bit of a bearing as to which direction Darren ended up going but at the time that Wayne took over I really I didn't really think anything of it as far as it having an impact on me or on Pinball Incorporated So he said nothing in your perspective and your alliance with Gene was not a reaction to anything that he did I would say no because my alliance with Gene was more on the lines of going forward and being able to make my parts official replacement parts or have them labeled as official replacement parts, which it's not something that I had to have done. Making pinball ramps is something that is not an infringement item. so I could continue to make pinball ramps regardless whether I was working with Gene or not. The reason I wanted to work with Gene is twofold. I like working with Gene. I like working with Kim Carter. And it was beneficial for me from the perspective of having access to the tools to make the ramps because that's a $3,000 to $5,000 savings that is automatic or immediate just by having access to the original tools. And now you use a thicker PETG plastic on your ramps, too, than the original ramps. Is that right? Yes. The original ramps used, as far as I can tell, most if not all of them used a .125 or a 1-8-inch deck stock. We used a .187, which is 50% thicker. And does that screw up the tooling? It's also a different plastic because the original plastics, as far as we can tell, and this is something that somebody else may be able to enlighten us on, but as far as we can tell the original plastics actually had more of a butyrate stock to them than a because ptg back in the early or late late 80s early 90s was not a prevalent plastic butyrate was and did the when you use this thicker material how do the were there any modifications you had to make to the molds no not to the molds where we compensate for the thicker plastic is in the mounting points and also if there's clearance issues we have to compensate using the CNC machine to trim them where we can compensate for vertical clearances or in some cases horizontal clearances. The tools themselves The thickness of the plastic has really no pluses or minus to it at all as far as being able to use the original tools or even the tools we created. The tools we created were used or were created by using original parts. We just splashed the original parts and made a tool off of them. The only thing that we have to compensate, I can't say only thing, but one of the things we do have to compensate for is that PETG does shrink when it cools off. So there's about a 1 16th of an inch shrinkage for every 18 inches of plastic. so when we do the trimming and when we do the mounting points we do have to make a compensation for that so as far as the thickness of the plastic there's no issues there at all. So what's the future for Pinball Inc? Just continue on making making plastic, making ramps. Are you going to expand into any other plastics or you know silkscreen plastics or anything or are you going to stay just with basically rants? No, first of all, I'm colorblind, so I don't want to get into anything that's got to do with artwork. I still don't make decals. We ship those out for other people to make. Darren Jacobs actually made the last set of decals for us, and in the future I would hope that he continues to make decals for us. But Marc Silk screening, that's not my, I don't want to get into that. I know very little about it and don't want to know a whole lot about it. Fair enough, fair enough. Well, is there anything else you want to add? Well, I just got back from Australia. Oh, oh. That was a fun trip. I actually got to meet Wayne and went by his shop. And how was Wayne's shop? In a couple of weeks, a good mate of mine, Greg Berry, who is now the owner of RTDD, which is the Australian distributor for our products. And I would like to say that if anybody ever gets a chance to go to Australia, take it. It's a beautiful country, beautiful people, beautiful country. Just had an absolute wonderful time over there. And how did Wayne treat you when you showed up? We had a very cordial conversation. I went by there last Thursday and spent about two hours. Just a casual, cordial conversation. Really no tension, no animosity. It was quite pleasant. Did he show you the shop? Yeah, for the whole part, yeah. I mean, it's quite unassuming. It's just a small shop. It actually reminded me of the last retail shop that I had, which is, it was about 2,400 square foot. And it's something that that's what Wayne was using. I understand that that is what Wayne was using or had been using up until the time that he signed the agreement with Williams. So from what I understand, he's supposed to be moving at some point into another facility to accommodate his expansion. But the building he's still in now is the one that he had when he was doing retail, selling machines, which from what I can see, he's still doing some of that. And could you get any kind of feel for how the Medieval Madness project is coming? Not really. That's something that I didn't go there to investigate. I didn't sit in and walk into the place saying, okay, what's going on with Medieval Madness? Based on what I saw, he's got some parts that he's got one room, a small room. It's got some boxes of parts in it. It's about a 15 by 10, maybe 18 by 10 room that has one-cube-foot boxes with parts in them, various parts. And what he showed me, a lot of those had Medieval Madness parts in them. So it looks like he's acquiring parts, and I would assume, therefore, some sort of assembly. but there was no actual indication at all that any assembly is starting to take place. I would, if I was to speculate, I would say that he's still in the acquiring mode, trying to get parts to put into the assemblies. Okay, anything else you want to add, James? Not offhand. Not unless you have something you'd like to ask. No, I think we pretty much covered it all. But, you know, I think we covered all the bases pretty well. So, well, you know, I appreciate you coming on and talking with us. And, you know, it's good. I really like talking to you and seeing, you know, what you've done and kind of your progression, you know, through the business and the hobby and how you've really helped us out with, you know, ramps for, you know, all these 90s machines. They sure needed it. Oh, well, thanks. and it was something that I really liked doing because it has kept me in the hobby. Without it, I shut my retail shop down three years ago, and at that point I would have most likely gone back into the computer field. Fortunately, I didn't have to. I was able to stay in this. Oh, there is one thing I'd like to add is that we will be at the Texas show, not this weekend but the following weekend we're planning to do that show and I do have some pictures that I took while I was in Australia including pictures at Wayne's Place so if anybody wants to stop by the booth out there I'll have them with me alright great thank you James appreciate the call alright well thank you take care alright you too All right, I want to thank James Laughlin of Pinball Inc. for coming on to TopCast for a nice interview explaining his business and how he makes pinball plastic ramps for the 1990s Williams and other brands of pinball machines. Thank you again, James. And until next time, signing out on TopCast. _(Acquisition: groq_whisper, Enrichment: v1)_ --- *Exported from Journalist Tool on 2026-04-13 | Item ID: f0817911-2a75-4509-8fb9-1139ff3ff2f2*